August 3, 2025 • 22 mins
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"Transforming Passion into Purpose," My Conversation with Steve Veale
In this episode, host Mark Cundiff interviews Steve Veale, the Executive Pastor of Westridge Church in Northwest Atlanta. Steve shares his 28-year journey in ministry and leadership, highlighting the church's notable achievements, including the planting of over 200 churches worldwide and its ministry to families with special needs. The conversation explores leadership lessons, the importance of investing in people, and the distinct challenges of leading in both nonprofit and for-profit organizations. Steve emphasizes the significance of vision, culture, and influence, particularly when working with volunteers. Additionally, Mark promotes his new book 'The Trust Gap,' which offers insights into increasing leadership effectiveness.
00:00 The Importance of Every Role in Ministry
00:19 Introduction to the Learning to Lead Show
00:37 Meet Steve V: Executive Pastor of Westridge Church
01:22 Steve's Leadership Journey
01:39 Promoting the Trust Gap Book
02:05 Interview with Steve V Begins
02:17 Early Leadership Lessons
05:37 Challenges and Growth in Leadership
06:43 Leading Volunteers vs. Paid Staff
10:37 The Impact of COVID on Volunteerism
15:55 Building and Maintaining a Positive Culture
21:52 Conclusion and Next Episode Teaser
Learning To Lead Free Resources
- Free Book: The Trust Gap
- Get your Free Learning to Lead Leadership Reading Guide Here
- The Learning To Lead Newsletter
- LeaderNotes
🔎 About LeaderNotes
LeaderNotes is a quick-hit companion to each episode of The Learning to Lead Show. In just 5–10 minutes, Mark Cundiff recaps the top leadership insights, frameworks, and action steps from each interview, designed for busy, growth-minded leaders who want to review and apply the episode’s biggest takeaways on the go.
It’s like the highlight reel + playbook—all in one.
Download This Episode's Leadernotes Here: LeaderNotes
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
To let them know that, man,every time you clean a toilet,
(00:03):
you are pushing the ministryforward.
You really are like yougenuinely are.
Because if you don't do that,guess what?
Man, people aren't gonna wannacome here.
You know what I mean?
That's gross.
So it, ma, I guess it justmatters, is what I'm saying.
Every, every little thing everyrole matters.
Hello, welcome to the Learningto Lead Show.
I'm your host, mark Cundiff Thisis the podcast where we help
(00:26):
leaders learn on the go, andthat introduction was with my
friend Steve V, who is theexecutive pastor of Westridge
Church in Northwest Atlanta.
This is a ministry that he hasbeen a part of since its
inception in 1997.
So he's been there 28 years, andover this 28 years, this church
has planted over 200 newchurches around the world.
(00:49):
It is also ministering tospecial needs families.
They have several hundred that.
Attend their ministry there inthe Westridge church.
Steve has served in numerousleadership roles throughout the
40 years.
When I first came to know himback in the early two thousands,
he was the worship pastor forWestridge Church, and he has
(01:11):
evolved and developed hisleadership to grow in different
ways.
He has been married to his wifeChristie for 35 years, and is
the fathers of two youngchildren, Micah and Sidney.
You're gonna learn a little bitabout.
What it's like to lead in alarge non-profit organization
and some of the differences andsome of the similarities to
(01:32):
leading in a for-profitorganization.
We're gonna dive into ourinterview with Steve in just a
moment.
But first I want to promote mynew book resource for you that's
free.
It's called the trust Gap.
It gives you some insight intosome things that may help you
increase your leadershipeffectiveness.
(01:52):
The trust gap dives into somethings that we do that erode our
trust with the people that we'releading.
You can get your copy for free.
Just go to the show notes, clickthe link, and you can have it
sent to your inbox today.
We're gonna dive in and learnfrom Steve.
Steve.
It's great to have you withbrother today.
How you doing?
Old friend?
Doing good buddy.
(02:13):
Thank you for your time todayand look forward to learning
from you today.
Give our audience a little bit ahistory of your leadership
journey.
You've.
Worked in the nonprofit churchworld, for your career.
Tell us what pulled you in thatdirection how has your
leadership journey, transformedover the time working in that
world?
So I am in a nonprofit.
(02:35):
I.
World so to speak, become in achurch world.
And my dad was a senior pastorof, the church that, that I
obviously attended as a childand as an young adult.
When I was in high school therewas a lady, Barb Craft, who took
on a group of us students andreally invested into us and gave
us opportunities to go out intothe community and do ministry
(02:55):
really.
And so it was in thatenvironment that I really felt
like this is something that I'dlike to do for the rest of my
life.
I ended up gonna LibertyUniversity met my wife there.
And then served on the staffthere at the church that was
connected to the, to LibertyThomas Row Baptist Church,
served on staff there.
For a season.
And what I'll never forget aboutthat is I made$9,000 a year full
(03:18):
time.
Then I went to a ministry in BoRaton, Florida, a church there,
and served in student ministryand young adult ministry and had
a great experience there.
And then came together withthree of my friends from
Liberty.
I.
We started a church together inin northwest Georgia outside of
Marietta in a little town calledDallas, Georgia.
(03:39):
I've been here this in fact,next month.
We will have moved here to startthe church 28 years ago.
Been in that the sameorganization, the same church
for all those years.
I came here as the worshippastor was the worship pastor
for 13 years and then I became,went out and helped one of our
campuses get off the ground andgoing.
Then worked in the area of adultdiscipleship for a season, and
(04:00):
now I'm the executive pastor ofthe Church of Ministry you
unpacked a lot there.
One of the things I'd like toexplore a little bit.
Is, what was it like in thoseearly days from a leadership
standpoint being relatively newin leadership, in the church
world and starting a brand newchurch.
There had to be a lot ofleadership lessons learned along
(04:21):
the way there.
What was that like?
I think it can be summed up wellthis way.
There was a very popularleadership conference called the
Purpose-Driven Con Conferenceout there in California with
Rick Warren and SaddlebackChurch.
I remember that Brian went outthere to this purpose-driven
conference and after listeningto why they did what they did
and how they did it and all thisother stuff, we just away from
(04:43):
there just saying, that I thinkthat we're the ignorance driven
church.
Just'cause we didn't evenrealize what we didn't know.
Like we didn't know what wedidn't know.
So we, here we are, like we'vegot all the passion in the
world.
Like we had, we just, we wereyoung.
Yeah, we had a ton of passionand a lot of energy and a lot of
drive, and a lot of faith andall of those things.
(05:03):
Just not much experience.
In fact, every, all four of uswho came with our families to
plant westridge, not one of ushad been in the roles that we
were taking on.
When we started the churchbefore, Brian had never been a
senior leader.
I'd never been in worship, I'dbeen in student ministry, did
worship, but I would, I'd neverled worship ministry.
Paul hadn't been in any ministryas far as,'cause he was right
outta college, and Dave had beenin the parachurch world, none of
(05:26):
us had done what we had done be,what we were doing then.
And so it was a ton of learningand then it was not just
learning about ministry, it waslearning about life because we
were, all raising money to behere and to do what we're doing.
If you go back to your earlyyears and look back and look at
Young Steve as obviously not thesame as Steve, 28 years,'cause
you've had to grow into thesedifferent roles, what would you
(05:47):
say, maybe it was a mistake ortwo early on.
Some things maybe like you said,you didn't know what you didn't
know.
What were some things that maybeyou were stumbling through back
then that you've since learned?
Hey, I wish I younger Steve hadknown to do this when I was
trying to enter a leadershiprole.
I think in a lot of ways that Ididn't really understand the
value really of investing inother people the way that I do
(06:10):
now.
I think it was something Ireally, had to learn and really
grow in.
Because I was just.
I was just really young as aleader and and I just, I think
that, I thought that everybodywas going to be as passionate
about what we were doing as Iwas.
Yeah.
Or that we were.
And just to realize that you'vecommitted your life to this and
they're committed to it, butthey may not be as committed to
(06:33):
it as what you are.
And you have to be, learn to bepatient and bring people along,
in that.
And I think that's somethingthat I just wasn't very good at.
I didn't really understand that,early on.
In the world that you're in.
Y'all have thousands of volvolunteers that work with y'all
for throughout the year, all thedifferent ministries and
projects and events that you allhave.
(06:55):
So you're highly, reliant onsomeone wanting to come and
serve.
And it's not from, you do havedirect reports in your position,
but the largest part of yourorganization is volunteers.
Talk a little bit about how.
Leading volunteers has impactedthe way you lead overall and
(07:16):
what the difference is.
For someone leading from apositional authority versus
through influence?
I think you just said it.
I think it's, I think it's allabout influence.
I think that's really all you'vegot is your ability to really
influence them.
And I think the way that youjust have to learn how to do
that is, through vision.
You have to be rock solid.
(07:37):
On your vision, because yourvision is what you're using to
motivate them.
You're not using your authority,you're not using your money.
You're not using your any of thethings that you might have as a
for-profit company, you don'thave any of those things.
What you do have is your missionand your vision and your values.
And so I think that you have tobecome, re you have to be a
constant student of yourmission.
(08:00):
And a lot of people have amission statement, and they, and
it's just a statement, justthat's just there and then, and
I don't know that they reallyconsistently study it.
I think if you asked our teamabout me, I think they would
tell you that if there's onething that I talk about all the
time, it's our mission and ourvision, our mission, and our
vision even to our staff, whichmostly our staff is paid.
(08:21):
But still, I think you lead themthe same way.
And I think you've got to be,you've gotta be, you gotta
maintain a passion for yourvision and lay it out there so
that people who are working allweek and raising their kids and
doing all their things and haveall those responsibilities.
By the way, for any pastors thatmight be listening, we take
Mondays or Fridays off, theydon't.
(08:44):
Like they're working Mondaythrough Friday or more.
And then they have one day offon Saturday, and then you're
taking up their whole, morningon Sunday.
As they come to worship and thenthey're coming to serve you.
You better give them a reasonfor that.
You're the mission that you'reinviting them into and the
vision that you have for notonly the ministry, but for them,
you've gotta have a mi you'vegotta have a vision for them.
(09:05):
And then I think in, at least inthe.
In the church world, and I thinkthis is true of the for-profit
world as well, is when you careabout them, your organization is
also gonna do really well.
You're gonna, you're gonnaaccomplish your goals for your,
in other words, you're gonnagrow your company and your
company's gonna be reallysuccessful because of the
(09:25):
investment you've made inindividuals, over and over.
I think Chick-fil-A's done agreat job of that.
They have really done such agood job at developing their
people as people and theirleaders as leaders.
I was at Win shape at a.
We'll get together last weekwhen Shape is a, is the training
arm of the nonprofit trainingarm of the Chick-fil-A
(09:46):
Corporation.
They have a program for, I thinkit's 50 or a hundred up and
coming.
College agent leaders that theyare investing in, and they're
just doing it.
That they may not, they may ormay not end up working for
Chick-fil-A, but Chick-fil-A israising them up to be, not just
leaders at Chick-fil-A, butleaders in the world.
(10:06):
And I just think that kind ofattitude and that kind of, that
kind of commitment to influenceis what will help, is what will
make you really successful inthe long run.
What do you see as some uniquechallenges that you run into in
the church from, both a staffingleadership?
So maybe start with that, whatare some unique challenges that
you've learned to deal with thatyou've maybe early on in your
(10:29):
career you had struggled with?
Then on the volunteer side, arethere some unique challenges
that you face on a regularbasis?
One of the challenges, thecurrent challenge that we're
experiencing in, in a nonprofitworld is the fact that e
everybody since COVID, I, we sawa very big change in the
attitude of people coming out ofCOVID because our commodity that
(10:53):
we really need from, we call'emteam members, we don't call'em
volunteers is we need theirtime.
And if there's one thing thatpeople got really used to during
COVID was having a lot of theirown time and they found out how
much they enjoyed that workingfrom home and being all around
one another and all that otherstuff.
And even though they felt coopedup, I.
(11:14):
They also got very very used tohaving their own time.
And we accomplish what webelieve that, the great
commission is by bringing peopletogether and serving one
another.
As this organization, this bodyof Christ, that everybody has a
role to play there, but yougotta be present you gotta be,
you gotta be in, if you're gonnaserve somebody in person, you
gotta be in person.
And so I think that, and then Ithink it comes back to the fact
(11:37):
that you gotta give them, youhave to give them a reason to
come.
You gotta give them a reason toto believe that the time that
they're spending with you ismore valuable than the time that
they would spend on their own.
And that's not an easy task.
To do.
So that's, I would probably saythat's today.
(11:58):
I think again early on, I don'tknow that I really appreciated
what it meant to really shepherdand care for people into that.
Like I didn't I just, I think I,I brought a lot of expectation
into my role of people.
I got really frustrated whenthey didn't, go along with what
(12:19):
with what I was reallypassionate about.
I.
And I just, I had to realize,these are human beings.
They're, these are people Yeah.
That they're, they're they'reteam members and they're, but
they got their own, they haveall their own stuff going on.
I think that's probably thenumber one thing that I have
learned of and probably in allthe ministry, is you gotta care
about people.
(12:40):
One of our values at our churchis people matter to God, and so
they have to matter to us orthey ought to matter to us.
My role is I lead the staff and,but I treat them, even though
they're staff members I don'tever, I don't ever want to have
them do anything because they'repaid.
I want them to do what they'redoing because they're super
(13:02):
passionate about it and they seethat this is more than just
something to do.
It's a person to be.
Because if I do that, I'll getthe other one.
Yeah.
Said that a little bit earlier.
If I can show them that they area really valuable part of the
team Than what than everybody'sbought in deeper.
I have to manage less.
(13:24):
I don't have to worry about, asmuch about their time and how
they're spending their time.
I can trust, I gain a lot oftrust.
So they get, they gain a lot oftrust from me and because I just
know that they get it.
Yeah.
And they're chasing it, atdifferent levels.
Different people get it atdifferent levels.
But even, the people who I wouldsay are probably farthest from
the hands-on ministry, which inour case might be you, would you
(13:46):
might say, our facilities team.
So they, they clean and takecare of facility.
They're not small group leaders.
They're not, leading ministrieson Sunday mornings.
They're, cleaning up thebuilding, and cleaning toilets
and all of that.
But if you can help them seethat, there was this very
specific role in the OldTestament for people who
prepared the temple for thepeople to come into worship.
(14:07):
And they were a very, they werean incredibly important.
Group of people called theLevites.
It was a whole lineage of peoplethat God had given that task to,
and they're very important.
And so they are preparing thetemple for worship as much as
the worship leader is preparingthe heart for the word, for the
Bible to be taught.
To let them know that, man,every time you clean a toilet,
(14:28):
you are pushing the ministryforward.
You really are like yougenuinely are.
Because if you don't do that,guess what?
Man, people aren't gonna wannacome here.
Yes.
You know what I mean?
That's gross.
Yeah.
And so it, ma, I guess it justmatters, is what I'm saying.
Every, every little thing everyrole matters.
The people in those roles,they're like the unseen heroes
because if they're doing a greatjob.
(14:51):
Nobody notices, but if theyThat's right.
Weren't doing a great job, theneverybody's gonna be noticing
and complaining and like yousaid, not coming.
We always.
Talk to our parking team and ourdoor holders and the, our host
team and all that, that mostpeople have decided whether
they're coming back before theyever walk into the worship
center.
They've already decided, yeah,church is too big, church is too
(15:12):
old, church is too unfriendly,people are too weird.
All of the things people havealready a lot of people have
already made the decision ifthey're coming back before
they've even heard the pastorsay a word.
Yes.
And and that regard, if that'strue.
Then man they are incrediblyimportant how they greet people
at the door.
'cause you never know who iswalking in Yeah.
(15:34):
In your door and what they havedealt with that week.
You have no idea.
Yeah.
What burden they're bringing into your meeting.
And so I.
I think that, those littlethings that that really measure
up to be really big things arewhether I, it is where I think
it's gained and lost in insuccess.
I think.
(15:55):
So many of these things you'retalking about really, like
Patrick Lencioni would talkabout his culture the culture,
you, the culture, I know theculture that you've developed
there, having seen it over theyears, and y'all have had ups
and downs with that.
It's, yeah, we have, it's nevera straight line.
No, but you have to beintentional about it.
Tell me how you and yourleadership team are.
(16:15):
Are intentional about theculture.
'cause you don't just developthis with, it just doesn't
happen even in the church world,it doesn't just happen.
So I'm gonna say a lot of thingsthat are obvious to people who
are probably listening,obviously it starts at the top.
And Brian leads our executiveteam.
And he leads it in this way.
And then, and our leadershipteam, I lead our, all of our
(16:35):
leadership our leadership team.
And we start every, I start allmy one-on-ones and I start all
of our leadership team meetings,checking in with how they're
doing.
I.
Not just how they're doing intheir ministry, but how are you
doing and how is your familydoing?
And there's a lot of myone-on-ones when I have a list
of things that we need to getthrough that we never get to.
Because you know why?
Because somebody's having areally hard week or they're
(16:56):
wrestling with a people problemor a personal problem or a
marriage problem or somethinglike that.
And and that and I think that's.
I think that's how we have tolead, whether we're a pastor or
not.
I happen to be a pastor.
I think I would lead like thatno matter what organization.
I know I would no matter whatorganization.
Because they can't just see as asolution to a problem.
They have to see themselves.
(17:17):
I.
They have to know that I seethem as a person.
That I really do care aboutthem.
And so that happens at aleadership level.
And then we, one of, one of thehabits that we have is we wanna
make, and I try to lead thisway, that we want every time we
gather our people together, thatit is fun and it is meaningful.
(17:39):
So we're gonna have a greattime, but you're also gonna go
away with having grown.
And whatever growth looks like,it might be inspiration or it
might be, helping your organ, inyour part of the organization to
answer the questions that youhave and need.
And it doesn't mean that therearen't some hard conversations
and some tough, truth that gets,has to get, shared and those
kind of things.
You have to work through somereally hard things and all of
(18:00):
that stuff.
But as an example, here's anexample about culture.
First of all, lemme say thisculture bleeds right?
It bleeds and it runs downhill.
And that's why it starts at thetop.
And so in my mind, if I'm, if Ican have a great culture among
our, those, I lead then and askand model I.
(18:22):
That kind of a culture to thepeople that I lead, then they're
gonna lead that way to thepeople that they lead.
And and all the way down itgoes.
And so with our staff, we gatherwith our staff a couple of times
a month.
And one of the things that wegather to do once a month is
staff church.
A lot of our staff can't be realpresent during our church
(18:43):
services, even though we havethree because they are leading
team members..
They are responsible for for allthe stuff and with the
organization.
So even if they're sitting, thisis so true of me.
Even if I'm sitting therelistening to the worship and
involved in the worship andlistening to the message, my
mind is racing.
About all kinds of things duringI'm at work.
(19:05):
I, and that's really hard.
And so we recognize that in ourteam.
And so we have this thing wecall staff church once a month
and we bring in a specialspeaker people we compensate
speakers to come in and toteach.
Sometimes it's our staff, butwe're moving more towards people
outside of our staff.
We have great worship.
We have a great message, but wealso laugh really hard.
(19:28):
We always have a fun thing thatwe're gonna do together.
And so we're gonna laugh, we'regonna compete.
We have the craziestcompetitions.
We did a final four thing, wherewe brought in some of those
little, those little, basketballhoops, you know that?
You know that, that kind of havethey return the ball to you and
you keep shooting.
They have'em, I think they'recalled one shot or something
like that.
So we brought two of those inthere and we did a, we did our
(19:48):
own little bracket right there,on, and we just went real quick,
and came down to.
The final person and they won.
They won a hundred dollars giftcard.
Cool.
That's really cool for winningthat.
And then we do a thing withstaff Value award.
Where we have one person whoreceived it last month, thinks
all through the month.
Of somebody that they're seeingemulate our values, our staff
(20:10):
values in their work.
Then they get up and they talkabout that and give them a gift.
Give another gift.
Typically it's a gift card and,but that's not even a, that's
not what they care about.
It's the recognition.
If somebody, taking five minutesto talk about what they
recognize in them.
So all of this is culture and aswe're, continuing to build
culture, the other thing is wealways celebrate.
(20:30):
We always celebrate what God isdoing.
Every week stories.
And some of times that's justimpromptu and other times it's
planned.
My thought is this, that firstof all, I want, again, I want
those meetings to be thehighlight of their month.
I want them to feel, I want themto feel seen.
I want them to feel cared for.
I want them to feel challenged.
I want them to feel sent.
(20:52):
All of those things.
I think the best chance I havefrom my position to influence
them and help them to influence,and trust them.
To lead from that whereverthey're leading, whatever teams
and groups they might be leadingto lead the same way.
And I've heard it a hundredtimes, that's what happens.
(21:12):
That they're inspired by that.
And try to emulate it in theirsmall groups or in their
ministry teams or in theirhuddles, as they gather with
their volunteers or their teammembers before a group.
They wanna make that time whenthey see me working really hard.
To make sure that time is wellthought out and that I'm
respecting their time enough toplan that really well.
(21:32):
Then when they have their huddlebefore a Sunday morning, they're
doing the same, not perfectly.
We have some that, that don't doit as well as others, but
generally I think that they'recarrying out, carrying on the
culture.
That, that and that's what I cando.
I don't know what el I don'tknow what more I can do but I
can do that.
Yeah.
And I try to be highlyintentional around that.
(21:53):
Thanks for joining the Learningto Lead Show.
We got some great leadership,Jims from Steve today.
Make sure you tune in to thenext episode to get the rest of
the conversation we had withSteve and learn some more great
leadership tips.
Make sure you go to your podcastplayer and give us a five
rating.
He help us spread the word aboutthe Learn Learning to Lead show.
(22:13):
Help us get that word out toyour friends and coworkers, and
also make sure you get a copy ofthe trust gap.
It's in the show notes.
It's a link that you can get thebook and learn a little bit
about how the trust gap could beeroding your leadership
effectiveness.
Also make sure you download ourleader notes.
That's a summary of the keytopics that we've talked through
(22:36):
today, and that'll give you asummary that you can review and
perhaps go over with your teamas a lunch and learn for your
leadership topics for this week.
We'll see you next time in parttwo of our journey with Steve on
the leadership of a nonprofit.
To let them know that, man,every time you clean a toilet,
(00:03):
you are pushing the ministryforward.
You really are like yougenuinely are.
Because if you don't do that,guess what?
Man, people aren't gonna wannacome here.
You know what I mean?
That's gross.
So it, ma, I guess it justmatters, is what I'm saying.
Every, every little thing everyrole matters.
Hello, welcome to the Learningto Lead Show.
I'm your host, mark Cundiff Thisis the podcast where we help
(00:26):
leaders learn on the go, andthat introduction was with my
friend Steve V, who is theexecutive pastor of Westridge
Church in Northwest Atlanta.
This is a ministry that he hasbeen a part of since its
inception in 1997.
So he's been there 28 years, andover this 28 years, this church
has planted over 200 newchurches around the world.
(00:49):
It is also ministering tospecial needs families.
They have several hundred that.
Attend their ministry there inthe Westridge church.
Steve has served in numerousleadership roles throughout the
40 years.
When I first came to know himback in the early two thousands,
he was the worship pastor forWestridge Church, and he has
(01:11):
evolved and developed hisleadership to grow in different
ways.
He has been married to his wifeChristie for 35 years, and is
the fathers of two youngchildren, Micah and Sidney.
You're gonna learn a little bitabout.
What it's like to lead in alarge non-profit organization
and some of the differences andsome of the similarities to
(01:32):
leading in a for-profitorganization.
We're gonna dive into ourinterview with Steve in just a
moment.
But first I want to promote mynew book resource for you that's
free.
It's called the trust Gap.
It gives you some insight intosome things that may help you
increase your leadershipeffectiveness.
(01:52):
The trust gap dives into somethings that we do that erode our
trust with the people that we'releading.
You can get your copy for free.
Just go to the show notes, clickthe link, and you can have it
sent to your inbox today.
We're gonna dive in and learnfrom Steve.
Steve.
It's great to have you withbrother today.
How you doing?
Old friend?
Doing good buddy.
(02:13):
Thank you for your time todayand look forward to learning
from you today.
Give our audience a little bit ahistory of your leadership
journey.
You've.
Worked in the nonprofit churchworld, for your career.
Tell us what pulled you in thatdirection how has your
leadership journey, transformedover the time working in that
world?
So I am in a nonprofit.
(02:35):
I.
World so to speak, become in achurch world.
And my dad was a senior pastorof, the church that, that I
obviously attended as a childand as an young adult.
When I was in high school therewas a lady, Barb Craft, who took
on a group of us students andreally invested into us and gave
us opportunities to go out intothe community and do ministry
(02:55):
really.
And so it was in thatenvironment that I really felt
like this is something that I'dlike to do for the rest of my
life.
I ended up gonna LibertyUniversity met my wife there.
And then served on the staffthere at the church that was
connected to the, to LibertyThomas Row Baptist Church,
served on staff there.
For a season.
And what I'll never forget aboutthat is I made$9,000 a year full
(03:18):
time.
Then I went to a ministry in BoRaton, Florida, a church there,
and served in student ministryand young adult ministry and had
a great experience there.
And then came together withthree of my friends from
Liberty.
I.
We started a church together inin northwest Georgia outside of
Marietta in a little town calledDallas, Georgia.
(03:39):
I've been here this in fact,next month.
We will have moved here to startthe church 28 years ago.
Been in that the sameorganization, the same church
for all those years.
I came here as the worshippastor was the worship pastor
for 13 years and then I became,went out and helped one of our
campuses get off the ground andgoing.
Then worked in the area of adultdiscipleship for a season, and
(04:00):
now I'm the executive pastor ofthe Church of Ministry you
unpacked a lot there.
One of the things I'd like toexplore a little bit.
Is, what was it like in thoseearly days from a leadership
standpoint being relatively newin leadership, in the church
world and starting a brand newchurch.
There had to be a lot ofleadership lessons learned along
(04:21):
the way there.
What was that like?
I think it can be summed up wellthis way.
There was a very popularleadership conference called the
Purpose-Driven Con Conferenceout there in California with
Rick Warren and SaddlebackChurch.
I remember that Brian went outthere to this purpose-driven
conference and after listeningto why they did what they did
and how they did it and all thisother stuff, we just away from
(04:43):
there just saying, that I thinkthat we're the ignorance driven
church.
Just'cause we didn't evenrealize what we didn't know.
Like we didn't know what wedidn't know.
So we, here we are, like we'vegot all the passion in the
world.
Like we had, we just, we wereyoung.
Yeah, we had a ton of passionand a lot of energy and a lot of
drive, and a lot of faith andall of those things.
(05:03):
Just not much experience.
In fact, every, all four of uswho came with our families to
plant westridge, not one of ushad been in the roles that we
were taking on.
When we started the churchbefore, Brian had never been a
senior leader.
I'd never been in worship, I'dbeen in student ministry, did
worship, but I would, I'd neverled worship ministry.
Paul hadn't been in any ministryas far as,'cause he was right
outta college, and Dave had beenin the parachurch world, none of
(05:26):
us had done what we had done be,what we were doing then.
And so it was a ton of learningand then it was not just
learning about ministry, it waslearning about life because we
were, all raising money to behere and to do what we're doing.
If you go back to your earlyyears and look back and look at
Young Steve as obviously not thesame as Steve, 28 years,'cause
you've had to grow into thesedifferent roles, what would you
(05:47):
say, maybe it was a mistake ortwo early on.
Some things maybe like you said,you didn't know what you didn't
know.
What were some things that maybeyou were stumbling through back
then that you've since learned?
Hey, I wish I younger Steve hadknown to do this when I was
trying to enter a leadershiprole.
I think in a lot of ways that Ididn't really understand the
value really of investing inother people the way that I do
(06:10):
now.
I think it was something Ireally, had to learn and really
grow in.
Because I was just.
I was just really young as aleader and and I just, I think
that, I thought that everybodywas going to be as passionate
about what we were doing as Iwas.
Yeah.
Or that we were.
And just to realize that you'vecommitted your life to this and
they're committed to it, butthey may not be as committed to
(06:33):
it as what you are.
And you have to be, learn to bepatient and bring people along,
in that.
And I think that's somethingthat I just wasn't very good at.
I didn't really understand that,early on.
In the world that you're in.
Y'all have thousands of volvolunteers that work with y'all
for throughout the year, all thedifferent ministries and
projects and events that you allhave.
(06:55):
So you're highly, reliant onsomeone wanting to come and
serve.
And it's not from, you do havedirect reports in your position,
but the largest part of yourorganization is volunteers.
Talk a little bit about how.
Leading volunteers has impactedthe way you lead overall and
(07:16):
what the difference is.
For someone leading from apositional authority versus
through influence?
I think you just said it.
I think it's, I think it's allabout influence.
I think that's really all you'vegot is your ability to really
influence them.
And I think the way that youjust have to learn how to do
that is, through vision.
You have to be rock solid.
(07:37):
On your vision, because yourvision is what you're using to
motivate them.
You're not using your authority,you're not using your money.
You're not using your any of thethings that you might have as a
for-profit company, you don'thave any of those things.
What you do have is your missionand your vision and your values.
And so I think that you have tobecome, re you have to be a
constant student of yourmission.
(08:00):
And a lot of people have amission statement, and they, and
it's just a statement, justthat's just there and then, and
I don't know that they reallyconsistently study it.
I think if you asked our teamabout me, I think they would
tell you that if there's onething that I talk about all the
time, it's our mission and ourvision, our mission, and our
vision even to our staff, whichmostly our staff is paid.
(08:21):
But still, I think you lead themthe same way.
And I think you've got to be,you've gotta be, you gotta
maintain a passion for yourvision and lay it out there so
that people who are working allweek and raising their kids and
doing all their things and haveall those responsibilities.
By the way, for any pastors thatmight be listening, we take
Mondays or Fridays off, theydon't.
(08:44):
Like they're working Mondaythrough Friday or more.
And then they have one day offon Saturday, and then you're
taking up their whole, morningon Sunday.
As they come to worship and thenthey're coming to serve you.
You better give them a reasonfor that.
You're the mission that you'reinviting them into and the
vision that you have for notonly the ministry, but for them,
you've gotta have a mi you'vegotta have a vision for them.
(09:05):
And then I think in, at least inthe.
In the church world, and I thinkthis is true of the for-profit
world as well, is when you careabout them, your organization is
also gonna do really well.
You're gonna, you're gonnaaccomplish your goals for your,
in other words, you're gonnagrow your company and your
company's gonna be reallysuccessful because of the
(09:25):
investment you've made inindividuals, over and over.
I think Chick-fil-A's done agreat job of that.
They have really done such agood job at developing their
people as people and theirleaders as leaders.
I was at Win shape at a.
We'll get together last weekwhen Shape is a, is the training
arm of the nonprofit trainingarm of the Chick-fil-A
(09:46):
Corporation.
They have a program for, I thinkit's 50 or a hundred up and
coming.
College agent leaders that theyare investing in, and they're
just doing it.
That they may not, they may ormay not end up working for
Chick-fil-A, but Chick-fil-A israising them up to be, not just
leaders at Chick-fil-A, butleaders in the world.
(10:06):
And I just think that kind ofattitude and that kind of, that
kind of commitment to influenceis what will help, is what will
make you really successful inthe long run.
What do you see as some uniquechallenges that you run into in
the church from, both a staffingleadership?
So maybe start with that, whatare some unique challenges that
you've learned to deal with thatyou've maybe early on in your
(10:29):
career you had struggled with?
Then on the volunteer side, arethere some unique challenges
that you face on a regularbasis?
One of the challenges, thecurrent challenge that we're
experiencing in, in a nonprofitworld is the fact that e
everybody since COVID, I, we sawa very big change in the
attitude of people coming out ofCOVID because our commodity that
(10:53):
we really need from, we call'emteam members, we don't call'em
volunteers is we need theirtime.
And if there's one thing thatpeople got really used to during
COVID was having a lot of theirown time and they found out how
much they enjoyed that workingfrom home and being all around
one another and all that otherstuff.
And even though they felt coopedup, I.
(11:14):
They also got very very used tohaving their own time.
And we accomplish what webelieve that, the great
commission is by bringing peopletogether and serving one
another.
As this organization, this bodyof Christ, that everybody has a
role to play there, but yougotta be present you gotta be,
you gotta be in, if you're gonnaserve somebody in person, you
gotta be in person.
And so I think that, and then Ithink it comes back to the fact
(11:37):
that you gotta give them, youhave to give them a reason to
come.
You gotta give them a reason toto believe that the time that
they're spending with you ismore valuable than the time that
they would spend on their own.
And that's not an easy task.
To do.
So that's, I would probably saythat's today.
(11:58):
I think again early on, I don'tknow that I really appreciated
what it meant to really shepherdand care for people into that.
Like I didn't I just, I think I,I brought a lot of expectation
into my role of people.
I got really frustrated whenthey didn't, go along with what
(12:19):
with what I was reallypassionate about.
I.
And I just, I had to realize,these are human beings.
They're, these are people Yeah.
That they're, they're they'reteam members and they're, but
they got their own, they haveall their own stuff going on.
I think that's probably thenumber one thing that I have
learned of and probably in allthe ministry, is you gotta care
about people.
(12:40):
One of our values at our churchis people matter to God, and so
they have to matter to us orthey ought to matter to us.
My role is I lead the staff and,but I treat them, even though
they're staff members I don'tever, I don't ever want to have
them do anything because they'repaid.
I want them to do what they'redoing because they're super
(13:02):
passionate about it and they seethat this is more than just
something to do.
It's a person to be.
Because if I do that, I'll getthe other one.
Yeah.
Said that a little bit earlier.
If I can show them that they area really valuable part of the
team Than what than everybody'sbought in deeper.
I have to manage less.
(13:24):
I don't have to worry about, asmuch about their time and how
they're spending their time.
I can trust, I gain a lot oftrust.
So they get, they gain a lot oftrust from me and because I just
know that they get it.
Yeah.
And they're chasing it, atdifferent levels.
Different people get it atdifferent levels.
But even, the people who I wouldsay are probably farthest from
the hands-on ministry, which inour case might be you, would you
(13:46):
might say, our facilities team.
So they, they clean and takecare of facility.
They're not small group leaders.
They're not, leading ministrieson Sunday mornings.
They're, cleaning up thebuilding, and cleaning toilets
and all of that.
But if you can help them seethat, there was this very
specific role in the OldTestament for people who
prepared the temple for thepeople to come into worship.
(14:07):
And they were a very, they werean incredibly important.
Group of people called theLevites.
It was a whole lineage of peoplethat God had given that task to,
and they're very important.
And so they are preparing thetemple for worship as much as
the worship leader is preparingthe heart for the word, for the
Bible to be taught.
To let them know that, man,every time you clean a toilet,
(14:28):
you are pushing the ministryforward.
You really are like yougenuinely are.
Because if you don't do that,guess what?
Man, people aren't gonna wannacome here.
Yes.
You know what I mean?
That's gross.
Yeah.
And so it, ma, I guess it justmatters, is what I'm saying.
Every, every little thing everyrole matters.
The people in those roles,they're like the unseen heroes
because if they're doing a greatjob.
(14:51):
Nobody notices, but if theyThat's right.
Weren't doing a great job, theneverybody's gonna be noticing
and complaining and like yousaid, not coming.
We always.
Talk to our parking team and ourdoor holders and the, our host
team and all that, that mostpeople have decided whether
they're coming back before theyever walk into the worship
center.
They've already decided, yeah,church is too big, church is too
(15:12):
old, church is too unfriendly,people are too weird.
All of the things people havealready a lot of people have
already made the decision ifthey're coming back before
they've even heard the pastorsay a word.
Yes.
And and that regard, if that'strue.
Then man they are incrediblyimportant how they greet people
at the door.
'cause you never know who iswalking in Yeah.
(15:34):
In your door and what they havedealt with that week.
You have no idea.
Yeah.
What burden they're bringing into your meeting.
And so I.
I think that, those littlethings that that really measure
up to be really big things arewhether I, it is where I think
it's gained and lost in insuccess.
I think.
(15:55):
So many of these things you'retalking about really, like
Patrick Lencioni would talkabout his culture the culture,
you, the culture, I know theculture that you've developed
there, having seen it over theyears, and y'all have had ups
and downs with that.
It's, yeah, we have, it's nevera straight line.
No, but you have to beintentional about it.
Tell me how you and yourleadership team are.
(16:15):
Are intentional about theculture.
'cause you don't just developthis with, it just doesn't
happen even in the church world,it doesn't just happen.
So I'm gonna say a lot of thingsthat are obvious to people who
are probably listening,obviously it starts at the top.
And Brian leads our executiveteam.
And he leads it in this way.
And then, and our leadershipteam, I lead our, all of our
(16:35):
leadership our leadership team.
And we start every, I start allmy one-on-ones and I start all
of our leadership team meetings,checking in with how they're
doing.
I.
Not just how they're doing intheir ministry, but how are you
doing and how is your familydoing?
And there's a lot of myone-on-ones when I have a list
of things that we need to getthrough that we never get to.
Because you know why?
Because somebody's having areally hard week or they're
(16:56):
wrestling with a people problemor a personal problem or a
marriage problem or somethinglike that.
And and that and I think that's.
I think that's how we have tolead, whether we're a pastor or
not.
I happen to be a pastor.
I think I would lead like thatno matter what organization.
I know I would no matter whatorganization.
Because they can't just see as asolution to a problem.
They have to see themselves.
(17:17):
I.
They have to know that I seethem as a person.
That I really do care aboutthem.
And so that happens at aleadership level.
And then we, one of, one of thehabits that we have is we wanna
make, and I try to lead thisway, that we want every time we
gather our people together, thatit is fun and it is meaningful.
(17:39):
So we're gonna have a greattime, but you're also gonna go
away with having grown.
And whatever growth looks like,it might be inspiration or it
might be, helping your organ, inyour part of the organization to
answer the questions that youhave and need.
And it doesn't mean that therearen't some hard conversations
and some tough, truth that gets,has to get, shared and those
kind of things.
You have to work through somereally hard things and all of
(18:00):
that stuff.
But as an example, here's anexample about culture.
First of all, lemme say thisculture bleeds right?
It bleeds and it runs downhill.
And that's why it starts at thetop.
And so in my mind, if I'm, if Ican have a great culture among
our, those, I lead then and askand model I.
(18:22):
That kind of a culture to thepeople that I lead, then they're
gonna lead that way to thepeople that they lead.
And and all the way down itgoes.
And so with our staff, we gatherwith our staff a couple of times
a month.
And one of the things that wegather to do once a month is
staff church.
A lot of our staff can't be realpresent during our church
(18:43):
services, even though we havethree because they are leading
team members..
They are responsible for for allthe stuff and with the
organization.
So even if they're sitting, thisis so true of me.
Even if I'm sitting therelistening to the worship and
involved in the worship andlistening to the message, my
mind is racing.
About all kinds of things duringI'm at work.
(19:05):
I, and that's really hard.
And so we recognize that in ourteam.
And so we have this thing wecall staff church once a month
and we bring in a specialspeaker people we compensate
speakers to come in and toteach.
Sometimes it's our staff, butwe're moving more towards people
outside of our staff.
We have great worship.
We have a great message, but wealso laugh really hard.
(19:28):
We always have a fun thing thatwe're gonna do together.
And so we're gonna laugh, we'regonna compete.
We have the craziestcompetitions.
We did a final four thing, wherewe brought in some of those
little, those little, basketballhoops, you know that?
You know that, that kind of havethey return the ball to you and
you keep shooting.
They have'em, I think they'recalled one shot or something
like that.
So we brought two of those inthere and we did a, we did our
(19:48):
own little bracket right there,on, and we just went real quick,
and came down to.
The final person and they won.
They won a hundred dollars giftcard.
Cool.
That's really cool for winningthat.
And then we do a thing withstaff Value award.
Where we have one person whoreceived it last month, thinks
all through the month.
Of somebody that they're seeingemulate our values, our staff
(20:10):
values in their work.
Then they get up and they talkabout that and give them a gift.
Give another gift.
Typically it's a gift card and,but that's not even a, that's
not what they care about.
It's the recognition.
If somebody, taking five minutesto talk about what they
recognize in them.
So all of this is culture and aswe're, continuing to build
culture, the other thing is wealways celebrate.
(20:30):
We always celebrate what God isdoing.
Every week stories.
And some of times that's justimpromptu and other times it's
planned.
My thought is this, that firstof all, I want, again, I want
those meetings to be thehighlight of their month.
I want them to feel, I want themto feel seen.
I want them to feel cared for.
I want them to feel challenged.
I want them to feel sent.
(20:52):
All of those things.
I think the best chance I havefrom my position to influence
them and help them to influence,and trust them.
To lead from that whereverthey're leading, whatever teams
and groups they might be leadingto lead the same way.
And I've heard it a hundredtimes, that's what happens.
(21:12):
That they're inspired by that.
And try to emulate it in theirsmall groups or in their
ministry teams or in theirhuddles, as they gather with
their volunteers or their teammembers before a group.
They wanna make that time whenthey see me working really hard.
To make sure that time is wellthought out and that I'm
respecting their time enough toplan that really well.
(21:32):
Then when they have their huddlebefore a Sunday morning, they're
doing the same, not perfectly.
We have some that, that don't doit as well as others, but
generally I think that they'recarrying out, carrying on the
culture.
That, that and that's what I cando.
I don't know what el I don'tknow what more I can do but I
can do that.
Yeah.
And I try to be highlyintentional around that.
(21:53):
Thanks for joining the Learningto Lead Show.
We got some great leadership,Jims from Steve today.
Make sure you tune in to thenext episode to get the rest of
the conversation we had withSteve and learn some more great
leadership tips.
Make sure you go to your podcastplayer and give us a five
rating.
He help us spread the word aboutthe Learn Learning to Lead show.
(22:13):
Help us get that word out toyour friends and coworkers, and
also make sure you get a copy ofthe trust gap.
It's in the show notes.
It's a link that you can get thebook and learn a little bit
about how the trust gap could beeroding your leadership
effectiveness.
Also make sure you download ourleader notes.
That's a summary of the keytopics that we've talked through
(22:36):
today, and that'll give you asummary that you can review and
perhaps go over with your teamas a lunch and learn for your
leadership topics for this week.
We'll see you next time in parttwo of our journey with Steve on
the leadership of a nonprofit.
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