Trust Over Titles: Effective Leadership in Reliability with Shon Isenhour - Part 2
In this episode of the 'Learning to Lead Show,' host Mark Cundiff continues his interview with Shon Isenhour, founder and owner of Eruditio, an education and training company.
Shon shares insights on how influence is more impactful than titles in leadership, underscores the importance of engaging frontline leaders, and emphasizes the necessity of a proactive leadership approach.
Through frameworks and storytelling, he illustrates strategies for ensuring sustainability in organizational reliability and discusses the significant role of effective leadership and communication.
The episode also touches on the integration of AI in the manufacturing sector and its potential to enhance predictive maintenance and data analysis. Tune in to understand why leadership and process management are crucial for successful change initiatives in industrial manufacturing.
00:00 Introduction and Personal Reflections
00:43 Welcome to the Learning to Lead Show
00:57 Interview with Shon Isenhour: Background and Expertise
01:56 Key Learnings from Shon Isenhour
03:18 Leadership and Communication Strategies
11:11 The Role of AI in Reliability and Maintenance
14:14 Challenges in Maintenance and Reliability
16:53 The Importance of Process and Accountability
19:39 Book Recommendations and Final Thoughts
23:36 Conclusion and Key Takeaways
Top Quotes from Shon on Today's Episode:
- "If you can't tell a story about why the change matters, no one else will either."
- "Leadership without authority is influence—earned, not assigned.
- "The front line can smell fake from 100 feet away. You don’t manage change—you lead it, shoulder to shoulder."
- "Reliability isn’t a program. It’s a promise. A way of working that people believe in."
- "Trust compounds. And in reliability work, trust is the currency of every decision people make on the floor."
- "If your change initiative dies the moment you leave the room, it wasn’t led—it was announced."
- "The people closest to the work often have the answers. We just need to make space for their voice to matter."
Key Topics Discussed Today:
1. The Challenge of Leading Without Authority
- Why influence > title
- Building trust over time with technicians and teams
- Showing consistency through small, repeated actions
2. The Power of Storytelling in Driving Change
- Using real-life examples to explain reliability concepts
- How leaders can translate abstract models (like ADKAR) into human terms
3. Frameworks for Sustainable Reliability
- Change management tools Shon uses: ADKAR, Kotter’s Model, Situational Leadership
- Avoiding the “initiative of the month” trap
- Measuring success beyond short-term wins
4. Engaging the Front Line
- Why language and listening matter
- Equipping supervisors with coaching, not just compliance tools
- Creating ownership instead of pushback
5. The Long Game of Leadership
- Why reliability is a culture, not a campaign
- How to build momentum without burnout
- The difference between ‘completion’ and ‘adoption’
Ways to Connect with Shon Isnehour
Book Recommendations by Shon:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I know that I need to go to thegym.
(00:02):
I know that I need to eat nutsand not Candy Bar.
I know a lot of things, but heybuddy, I'm not exactly Mr.
World Fitness here today, right?
The ability to be able toexecute, I think is where we
really have to focus and makesure that our team understands
that's where the rubber meetsthe road.
(00:24):
Most, not all, but most of thestuff we talk about from a
technical standpoint is notbrand new earth shattering.
It's the leadership.
It's the communication, it's therisk management, it's the
situational leadership.
I think those are the thingsthat a lot of folks don't
understand, and without them, wecan't move forward.
(00:45):
Hello and welcome to theLearning to Lead Show.
I'm your host, mark Cundiff Ourgoal is to equip busy
growth-minded leaders by helpingthem grow on the go.
Now in today's episode, you willhear from my interview with Shon
Isenhour He is the founder andowner of Eruditio.
(01:06):
They are an education andtraining company with a focus on
project-based applied learning.
Working in the reliability spacefor industrial manufacturing
companies.
Shon is a proud graduate of NCState University where he
studied engineering.
He has built on that withmultiple certifications in the
maintenance and reliabilityspace, including being
(01:27):
A-C-M-R-P.
Shon has been a good friend ofmine from nearly 15 years, and
I've watched him grow anddevelop as a leader, taking on
more and more responsibilityduring that time.
He is a great teacher, mentor,and developer of leaders on the
front lines in the industrialmanufacturing space around the
world.
Today's episode is part two ofmy interview with Sean
(01:50):
Eisenhower.
Trust Over Titles theReliability Leaders Playbook.
In this episode, you'll learnhow that influence is greater
than a title.
You'll also learn about thepower of storytelling and
driving change initiatives.
You'll also learn someframeworks for making
(02:10):
reliability sustainable in yourorganization.
You will learn about theimportance of engaging frontline
leaders then you also hear fromSean talk about the long game of
leadership, where he talks aboutthe importance of culture not
being a campaign where you needto build momentum without
creating burnout, and he'll talkabout the difference between
(02:33):
completion and adoption.
These are some great learningsthat we'll get from Sean today.
Stay tuned for a great part twoof my interview with Sean
Eisenhower.
Are you a busy leader whostruggles finding time to learn
and grow?
If so, I have the perfectresource for you, the Learning
to Lead Newsletter that Ipublish weekly with five to
(02:55):
seven minutes of quickleadership insights, book
reviews, and tips to help yougrow as a leader, you can get
access by going tomarkjcundiff.com/newsletter.
Again, that'smarkjcundiff.com/newsletter or
by clicking the link in the shownotes.
Now let's dive in and learn fromShon today.
(03:18):
Let's talk to the plant manageror the VP of ops who has those
people in their organizationthat are trying to.
Lead change how should theyapproach it?
How can they put them in aposition to be successful?
'cause many times.
In those realms of leadership,sometimes they don't understand
(03:40):
what's going on and theyactually stifle the investment
that they just made in thesepeople.
Yeah.
So what would you say to thefolks that are at the more
senior level, how can they keepthat fire going, put gas on it
instead of water, like you said?
Yeah, man, there's so manydifferent things I could tell
you here.
One of the things that we did iswe developed.
Six different curriculum in IBL.
(04:01):
So there is an operationsmanager curriculum, there's a
maintenance manager curriculum,there's planner scheduler,
there's store room.
So we have all these differentflavors, right?
Yeah.
And the main reason we did that,and this is the point, the main
reason was so that they were alltalking the same language, and
they actually understood thevision of where we were trying
to get to.
(04:22):
Alright.
And I think that's the biggerpiece, not to talk about the IBL
curriculum, but to say, ifyou're a leader in the
organization, you need to makesure that all of your folks are
talking the same language toeach other and have the same
level of understanding.
There's also some things you cando from a project management
standpoint.
One thing that, that I havenoticed is there are certain
(04:45):
things that work well in areactive organization.
We'll call them reactive bestpractices.
Wink.
All right.
And then there's going to beproactive best practices.
An example would be, I mightcentralize my maintenance group
because it's so reactive untilthe maturity level of the
organization is high enough thatI feel comfortable diversifying,
(05:09):
allowing other leaders to be.
Involved in maintenance andreliability.
So there are things like that wecan do structurally from a
project management standpoint.
On the soft side, which is wherewe're talking on the leadership
and communication side I'm gonnasay, let's get'em speaking the
same language.
Hopefully maybe build, a clearvision of where we're going.
(05:31):
That project plan that's goingto tell that ops person what
they need to do, but it's alsogonna tell that maintenance
person what needs to happen fromtheir perspective.
Those are all key elements toputting fuel in that engine as
opposed to putting water on it.
I'm curious if you would breakit down in a percentage.
I know that when people thinkabout, okay, I'm gonna go get
some planner schedulingtraining, or I'm gonna go get
(05:52):
some reliability training or RCAtraining, you really think about
the competence that you'relearning these skills.
So you go back and you're morecompetent.
But how much.
Percentage of the effectivenessis based on their ability to
lead and influence the changeversus just the competence.
In other words, you can getfully competent and really know
(06:14):
the, and get a hundred on yourtest, but go back and still not
be effective.
So what I.
How much weight do you place onthe effectiveness from a
leadership standpoint?
I think that's one of the timeswhen we could talk a little bit
about some of the industrycertifications that exist.
And two of them that come tomind for me.
One is the CMRP from the Societyof Maintenance and Reliability
Professionals, and the other isthe RMI.
(06:36):
C, which comes from theUniversity of Tennessee.
Those are almost two differentends of the spectrum.
The SMRP is looking for you tobe able to answer the questions.
Okay.
The University of Tennessee andthe RMIC credential is looking
for you to demonstrate thatyou've implemented those things.
So those are the bookends ofkinda what you're talking about.
(07:00):
And I think you're a hundredpercent right.
I know that I need to go to thegym.
I know that I need to eat nutsand not Candy Bar.
I know a lot of things, but Heybuddy, I'm not exactly Mr.
World Fitness here today, right?
Yeah.
The ability to be able toexecute, I think is where we
really have to.
(07:21):
Focus and make sure that ourteam understands that's where
the rubber meets the road.
Most, not all, but most of thestuff we talk about from a
technical standpoint is notbrand new earth shattering.
It's the leadership, it's thecommunication, it's the risk
management, it's the situationalleadership.
(07:41):
I think those are the thingsthat a lot of folks don't
understand, and without them, wecan't move forward.
I may be wrong, but from myperspective, most I, I know a
lot more about the SMRP.
You hear more about that.
Because they're working aboutthe how to and you hear less
about the University ofTennessee model.
And so like you said, they'rereally two different pieces of
(08:03):
the same process that need to beimplemented.
I see that many timesorganizations think, okay, if I
teach'em how to do it, then it'sgonna get done.
But they also need to teach'em alittle bit more on the
effectiveness side, how you do alot of equipping of other people
and sharpening their saw.
But in order to do that, youhave to be.
Continually learning yourself,both from a presentation
(08:25):
standpoint, from a keeping upwith what's cutting edge in the
new technologies and how thecomputer systems and AI and all
those impact what you're doing.
How do you sharpen your saw?
How do you make sure that you'restaying ahead of the game so
that you're fresh with contentto move the organizations that
you work with forward.
(08:46):
I think there's probably threeor four ways that I think I
focus on.
First would be learning from myown team here at iio.
It's awesome to be able to jumpon a quick text message with
three or four of the guys andsay, Hey, here's what I'm
seeing.
What do you know?
What have you seen?
What's your past look like?
Give me examples.
I've got some folks on my teamwho.
Will lead with an example frompast history.
(09:09):
I've got others who will knowexactly what book talks about
that.
Alright.
Okay.
And so it's, that's really coolbecause that then feeds my
engine to say, okay, I need togo grab this book or that book,
or I need to look at this orthat.
And I think that's a big part ofit.
I'm.
Taking a pretty intensive diveinto the psychology side of what
(09:30):
we do right now.
So I'm on probably my third orfourth book and I'm realizing
this is an area that we don't dowell.
I.
It's like we talked aboutcommunication and how we
struggle there earlier.
The psychology is almost like anenabler that most people just
leave on the shelf.
They don't even know about it,so they have to work extra hard
(09:54):
instead of using that as aleverage point, if you will, to
get further along than they wantto go.
So a lot of reading from thatperspective.
So the first two, first oneobviously is with my peers and
having conversations.
And those peers can be here atCIO or it can be peers in the
industry.
I had a great conversation acouple days ago with doc Palmer.
(10:15):
I.
Who a lot of people will knowfrom his planning and scheduling
handbook.
And it's just fun, right?
Yeah.
Because we don't all agree oneverything, but we don't have
to.
We get to talk about it.
And what's funny is the more wetalk, the more we realize we
agreed on most things.
Yes.
Those conversations allow you tosharpen that saw as well.
And then the reading I think isvery important.
(10:37):
AI is its own world.
You can't really read about AIyet because what you're reading
is already old.
Yeah.
In fact, what I read yesterdayis probably no longer valid
today.
AI has been a great tool for usbecause AI does understand ai.
And while it's not perfect inevery way.
That can be another enabler forquickly pulling together large
(10:59):
amounts of data and trying tounderstand, what it means or
draw conclusions from it.
So those are, that's three areasI'm sure.
There's probably more that Icould think of, but those are
three that I think I hit prettyregular.
Yeah.
You touched on AI there.
How do you have a feel about howthat's going to in, in impact
the manufacturing andreliability world?
(11:19):
Do you have any kinda senseabout that?
I have a lot of opinions.
I don't know that I am any moreequipped than anyone else to say
that this is what's gonnahappen.
But I do believe it'll beanother enabler to understanding
best practices.
But I also know we've known manyof the best practices for 50
years and we still haven'timplemented them.
(11:41):
Yep.
So it's not like AI is going tochange the implementation
strategy, it just might enableyou to have more information.
Faster and that sort of thinggoing forward.
I do believe that it will makechanges to predictive
maintenance tools and predictivemaintenance in general.
And anywhere you have vastamounts of data, I think that's
(12:04):
gonna be huge.
If you've got a data lake, youcan almost turn AI loose on that
data lake and learn a lot.
Now you gotta be careful.
Because, it'll also drawconclusions sometimes that maybe
aren't so valid.
Yeah.
So you gotta, you always, atleast for now, you have to gut
check everything that AI doesagainst your experience and your
beliefs.
(12:24):
But are there some tools outthere, I'm ignorant about this.
Are there some tools out therealready on the marketplace for
the reliability professional tohelp'em go in and do analysis of
production data and maintenancedata?
There are.
So there's a couple things, andlike I said, what we talked
about yesterday is no longervalid tomorrow.
But we created something calledthe Reliability robot.
(12:46):
Okay?
And if anybody wants to get toit, they can go to
www.reliabilityrobot.com.
You will have to set up a chatGT account because that's the
backend that we're running iton.
But what we did is we trainedthe reliability robot on a lot
of our.
Blended learning curriculum, ourIBL curriculum.
And so it knows those kinds ofthings.
(13:08):
So now when you ask it aquestion, it can take it and
bounce it against what we knowto be some of those best
practices moving forward.
Wow.
Alright, so that's one example.
I think when you get into thebig data sets, you could
arguably, if you're willing toput your data into the public
domain, you could load it intoany one of the large, they call
(13:31):
them large language models,LLMs.
So this is the chat, GBT, thegr, all the ones that are out
there today.
Those they can really handle.
A lot of data, a lot more datathan a human can really
understand in short order.
So that, that can be veryhelpful.
And then there of course, are alot of companies now that are
(13:53):
incorporating or creating largelanguage models that you don't
have to put your data out in thepublic domain.
Okay.
And those can be really helpfulfor people that are a little
more sensitive about the kind ofinformation they might be giving
out.
That's good.
You go into a lot of differentindustries, a l talk to people
from a lot of differentindustries, speak at
(14:13):
conferences.
What, is there one or two keychallenges that you see the
maintenance and reliabilityprofessionals facing that just
jumps out at you right now?
I think, one of the problemsthat, that we face, and I can
probably rattle off.
Five or six of these, but I'lltry to keep it short.
I would say one of them is thatwe have a tendency to go after
(14:34):
shiny objects.
Okay.
A lot of us are engineers orjust gadget guys, right?
And so we see some shiny newobject and we go all in, oh we
would be so much more reliableif we just had industrial
internet of things, if we justhad sensors on all of our
assets.
Yeah.
No, you wouldn't.
(14:54):
Because you'd do the same thingwith the data that you've been
doing with the data for the last25 years, right?
If you're reactive, throwing abunch of sensors on the assets
is not going to make you initself less reactive.
In fact, there's a study out ofMIT that says technology
implementations in general havea negative seven return on
investment.
That is not a good return.
(15:15):
You can't make that up onvolume, right?
It's not that I'manti-technology, please don't
misunderstand, but what I wouldsay is missing for a lot of
these folks is they don't wannado the process work.
They don't wanna map the currentstate process and then
understand the target stateprocess, right?
They don't wanna do the raci,whatever you wanna call it,
(15:38):
responsible, accountableaccount.
Responsible, accountable,consulted and informed or
responsible, accountablesupported, and information or
inputs.
People call'em different things.
They all work the same.
The idea is when you finish, Ihave every process step
outlined, and I know who'sresponsible and what boss is
accountable if it doesn'thappen.
(15:59):
Because that's probably thesecond problem that I think
industry manufacturing as awhole has, and that's a lack of
accountability.
And we do a lot of maintenanceassessments, reliability
assessments, manufacturingassessments.
And in those facilities, they'llalways, not always, many times
they'll say if they would justhold people accountable around
here.
Yeah.
But here's the real dirtysecret.
(16:21):
You can't take someone who justcame outta college and they're
now in a supervisory role andexpect them to know what a best
practice planner looks like orwhat a best practice supervisor
looks like.
Or even, what an operator shouldbe doing.
Yeah.
If they've never done it before.
So if you haven't mapped yourbusiness processes and define
(16:42):
the responsibilities andaccountabilities.
By role then how in the worldcan you expect a new leader in
your organization to holdsomebody accountable?
It's impossible, right?
So from my perspective, the twobig things I would say is we
tend to go after shiny objects.
We don't tend to go after thebusiness processes, and because
(17:03):
of that, we don't understandwho's accountable for what.
Now, let me put a bow on thisbecause here's the interesting
thing.
The same study that I mentionedhad a negative seven return on
investment for technologyshowed, and I think this is
right.
I feel pretty good with thisnumber, that it was about a 27%
return on just.
Getting your processes right,the things we just talked about.
(17:25):
Okay.
And that's a pretty good return.
I think right now with the stockmarket doing what it's doing,
you and I both would take thatone every day.
All day.
Yeah.
But what I think is superinteresting is that same study
said that where both technologyand processes were used
together.
So the processes are enablingthe technology.
The technology is enabling theprocesses.
(17:47):
They had over a 75% return oninvestment.
So this isn't an OR statement.
This is an and statement, right?
Yeah.
We need both of those, but mybelief is you've got to start
with the processes, and if youdon't, you'll have a whole bunch
of shiny technology laying allaround the facility collecting
dust.
You just really.
Crystallized what Jim Collinswrote about, about 20, 25 years
(18:10):
ago with the technologyaccelerators.
Yes.
He said, it's not thattechnology is going to be the
savior of a company.
It's only going to acceleratethe good companies that have
good discipline practices inplace.
And if you haven't read that,you need to go back and read
Good to Great.
Because it really talks aboutall the things that, that you're
talking about there as, as wellas a number of other paradigms.
(18:31):
That's the one that's probablythe least talked about outta
that book.
But it's a, it's, you justexactly nailed what he talked
about.
The companies that went fromGood to Great, they didn't do it
because they implementedtechnology.
They did it because it was ontop of good discipline practices
that they already had in place.
So that, yeah, that's a goodpoint.
I probably should go back andreread that book.
(18:52):
It's probably been 15 yearssince I read it.
I think it would be interesting'cause if I remember correctly,
some of the case studies andcompanies in there have had a
rough 15 years.
Yeah.
So I think it'd be a fun readfrom that perspective.
Because as you and I both know,a lot of companies they lose
their way and, things change andthey don't keep up and, so that
definitely would make that bookprobably pretty enjoyable.
(19:14):
When I was running a plan, Iused to read that every year and
it's probably the book that I'veused the principles out of more
than any other book and whatI've heard Jim Collins address
those issues about the companiesthat have fallen.
He says what has happened isthey've gotten away, they've
brought in new leadership thatthey went away from those
practices and when they wentaway from those practices.
It started to impact them.
(19:36):
So it's a really interestingprocess there.
What are some, we're talkingabout books here.
What are some books that likeyour firing, equip you and
excited you here lately?
I think a topic that we reallyhaven't talked enough about
today from a leadershipstandpoint, and I'm not sure a
lot of people talk about it andin fact I don't even know if
some people believe in it, but Iwould say probably the body
(19:57):
language side has been very funfor me.
Now, this is not part of mypsychology reading.
This is something I dove deep intwo years ago.
But the body language thingbecame really good and I brought
a couple with me.
This is a great book.
I've seen Vanessa speak multipletimes.
She does a wonderful job ofreally starting to explain
(20:17):
what's going on when you'retalking with other people.
Because we all know, just likeyou and I or anybody else, it's
hard to listen and pay attentionto everything that's going on
when another person's talking.
Sometimes you honestly findyourself thinking, okay, what am
I gonna say next?
Or How am I gonna respond?
And as soon as you start doingthat, you're not hearing.
(20:38):
Them anymore.
You're hearing you just like wetalked about with communication
earlier, but the, the other sideof it's that their body's
telling you a whole lot more atthe same time if you're willing
to listen.
And so that's called cues.
That one's called cues.
She has multiple books though Ithink this is her second one.
Her first one I've finished andit's in pretty rough shape'cause
(20:59):
it rode around with me for awhile.
But this is one of hers andeither one of Vanessa Van
Edwards books, I think would begood choices.
This is another really good one.
I've this gentleman, mark, hehas a pretty good presence on
the internet, so I've alsolistened to him quite a bit
talking about some of the thingsand even dissecting sometimes
(21:20):
things that are happening from acurrent event standpoint, which
can be fun.
The big takeaways in here forme.
And that's winning body languageby winning body language by mark
Bowden.
Okay.
And there's a couple other bodylanguage books that arguably are
even better or at the same levelas this one.
Is there one lasting thoughtthat you would like to wrap us
up with today that just the guythat's out there, maybe he's
(21:42):
struggling from a leadershipstandpoint and a word of
encouragement or inspiration youmight give him?
I would say try to become moreof a proactive leader as opposed
to a reactive leader.
And I think that's a theme we'vetalked about here today, is.
Doing the pre-work, right?
Yeah.
It's figuring out the riskbefore they happen so that you
can be ready for them instead ofhaving to react to them.
(22:04):
Being intentional, focusing onsuccess, all of those things are
proactive.
Things that we can do from aleadership standpoint.
The reason I say it is.
Because here we are trying totake an organization from being
a reactive maintenanceorganization to being a
proactive maintenanceorganization, but yet we go in
and fight fires from aleadership standpoint every day.
I think, if we're gonna preachthat to our audience our people
(22:27):
our folks that are following uson this journey, then we've
gotta be proactive.
And that's hard.
It's not that I get it rightevery day, that's for sure.
I find myself caught in the dayto day and firefighting and
responding.
We need to step back from that,right?
And try to be more proactive,more intentional, more success
focused.
That's really good.
I really like to call it being ssmokey the bear instead of the
(22:50):
firemen.
But what most cultures do isthey reward the firemen and they
give them the medals and thetrophies, so to speak, but they
do not really recognize thequiet guy over in the corner
that's preventing the forestfires.
We need to do better atrecognizing the Smokey the
bears.
Absolutely that's that, thatgoing back to selling what our
good guys are doing.
(23:10):
Absolutely.
Thanks for your time today.
This has been a great visit.
Lots of gold in here today and Iappreciate your time.
Have a good day.
I appreciate it, mark.
Thanks.
Part two of our interview withSean Eisenhower was some more
great content.
If you did not listen to thefirst episode with him, make
sure you go back and check thatepisode out as well.
Some quotes that I got from himtoday that really stuck with me.
(23:33):
If you can't tell a story aboutwhy the change matters, no one
else will either.
Another one was, leadershipwithout authority is influence.
It's earned not assigned.
The third quote that got me wasthe front line can smell fake
from a hundred feet away.
You don't manage change, youlead it shoulder to shoulder.
(23:57):
Another one reliability isn't aprogram.
It's a promise, a way of workingthat people believe in.
Again, he's there talking abouttrust.
Doubles down with the trusttheme.
Here goes trust compounds and inreliability work trust is the
currency of every decisionpeople make on the shop floor.
(24:19):
The last quote for today is ifyou change initiative dies the
moment you leave the room.
It wasn't led, it was announced.
Those are some powerfulstatements by Sean.
Some great leadership food forthe leader out there on the
front lines, trying to leadchange initiatives and your
programs there on your site.
(24:41):
If you want to get in touch withSean, we'll have his contact
information, his LinkedInprofile, his website, his email
address if you wanna reach outto Sean.
His team has some great trainingavailable in the reliability
space, some great leadershiptraining.
Reach out to him get in touchwith him.
If you're interested in workingwith Sean and their team.
(25:03):
Thank you for listening thisweek.
Make sure that if you've gotvalue out of today's podcast to
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(25:24):
you grow as a leader.
To help you go from being a goodleader to a great leader, and as
Craig Rochelle is fond ofsaying, everyone gets better
when the leader gets better, solet's make sure that we go out
and grow, we become a betterleader, and that we influence
our organizations in a greaterway for greater results.
I know that I need to go to thegym.
(00:02):
I know that I need to eat nutsand not Candy Bar.
I know a lot of things, but heybuddy, I'm not exactly Mr.
World Fitness here today, right?
The ability to be able toexecute, I think is where we
really have to focus and makesure that our team understands
that's where the rubber meetsthe road.
(00:24):
Most, not all, but most of thestuff we talk about from a
technical standpoint is notbrand new earth shattering.
It's the leadership.
It's the communication, it's therisk management, it's the
situational leadership.
I think those are the thingsthat a lot of folks don't
understand, and without them, wecan't move forward.
(00:45):
Hello and welcome to theLearning to Lead Show.
I'm your host, mark Cundiff Ourgoal is to equip busy
growth-minded leaders by helpingthem grow on the go.
Now in today's episode, you willhear from my interview with Shon
Isenhour He is the founder andowner of Eruditio.
(01:06):
They are an education andtraining company with a focus on
project-based applied learning.
Working in the reliability spacefor industrial manufacturing
companies.
Shon is a proud graduate of NCState University where he
studied engineering.
He has built on that withmultiple certifications in the
maintenance and reliabilityspace, including being
(01:27):
A-C-M-R-P.
Shon has been a good friend ofmine from nearly 15 years, and
I've watched him grow anddevelop as a leader, taking on
more and more responsibilityduring that time.
He is a great teacher, mentor,and developer of leaders on the
front lines in the industrialmanufacturing space around the
world.
Today's episode is part two ofmy interview with Sean
(01:50):
Eisenhower.
Trust Over Titles theReliability Leaders Playbook.
In this episode, you'll learnhow that influence is greater
than a title.
You'll also learn about thepower of storytelling and
driving change initiatives.
You'll also learn someframeworks for making
(02:10):
reliability sustainable in yourorganization.
You will learn about theimportance of engaging frontline
leaders then you also hear fromSean talk about the long game of
leadership, where he talks aboutthe importance of culture not
being a campaign where you needto build momentum without
creating burnout, and he'll talkabout the difference between
(02:33):
completion and adoption.
These are some great learningsthat we'll get from Sean today.
Stay tuned for a great part twoof my interview with Sean
Eisenhower.
Are you a busy leader whostruggles finding time to learn
and grow?
If so, I have the perfectresource for you, the Learning
to Lead Newsletter that Ipublish weekly with five to
(02:55):
seven minutes of quickleadership insights, book
reviews, and tips to help yougrow as a leader, you can get
access by going tomarkjcundiff.com/newsletter.
Again, that'smarkjcundiff.com/newsletter or
by clicking the link in the shownotes.
Now let's dive in and learn fromShon today.
(03:18):
Let's talk to the plant manageror the VP of ops who has those
people in their organizationthat are trying to.
Lead change how should theyapproach it?
How can they put them in aposition to be successful?
'cause many times.
In those realms of leadership,sometimes they don't understand
(03:40):
what's going on and theyactually stifle the investment
that they just made in thesepeople.
Yeah.
So what would you say to thefolks that are at the more
senior level, how can they keepthat fire going, put gas on it
instead of water, like you said?
Yeah, man, there's so manydifferent things I could tell
you here.
One of the things that we did iswe developed.
Six different curriculum in IBL.
(04:01):
So there is an operationsmanager curriculum, there's a
maintenance manager curriculum,there's planner scheduler,
there's store room.
So we have all these differentflavors, right?
Yeah.
And the main reason we did that,and this is the point, the main
reason was so that they were alltalking the same language, and
they actually understood thevision of where we were trying
to get to.
(04:22):
Alright.
And I think that's the biggerpiece, not to talk about the IBL
curriculum, but to say, ifyou're a leader in the
organization, you need to makesure that all of your folks are
talking the same language toeach other and have the same
level of understanding.
There's also some things you cando from a project management
standpoint.
One thing that, that I havenoticed is there are certain
(04:45):
things that work well in areactive organization.
We'll call them reactive bestpractices.
Wink.
All right.
And then there's going to beproactive best practices.
An example would be, I mightcentralize my maintenance group
because it's so reactive untilthe maturity level of the
organization is high enough thatI feel comfortable diversifying,
(05:09):
allowing other leaders to be.
Involved in maintenance andreliability.
So there are things like that wecan do structurally from a
project management standpoint.
On the soft side, which is wherewe're talking on the leadership
and communication side I'm gonnasay, let's get'em speaking the
same language.
Hopefully maybe build, a clearvision of where we're going.
(05:31):
That project plan that's goingto tell that ops person what
they need to do, but it's alsogonna tell that maintenance
person what needs to happen fromtheir perspective.
Those are all key elements toputting fuel in that engine as
opposed to putting water on it.
I'm curious if you would breakit down in a percentage.
I know that when people thinkabout, okay, I'm gonna go get
some planner schedulingtraining, or I'm gonna go get
(05:52):
some reliability training or RCAtraining, you really think about
the competence that you'relearning these skills.
So you go back and you're morecompetent.
But how much.
Percentage of the effectivenessis based on their ability to
lead and influence the changeversus just the competence.
In other words, you can getfully competent and really know
(06:14):
the, and get a hundred on yourtest, but go back and still not
be effective.
So what I.
How much weight do you place onthe effectiveness from a
leadership standpoint?
I think that's one of the timeswhen we could talk a little bit
about some of the industrycertifications that exist.
And two of them that come tomind for me.
One is the CMRP from the Societyof Maintenance and Reliability
Professionals, and the other isthe RMI.
(06:36):
C, which comes from theUniversity of Tennessee.
Those are almost two differentends of the spectrum.
The SMRP is looking for you tobe able to answer the questions.
Okay.
The University of Tennessee andthe RMIC credential is looking
for you to demonstrate thatyou've implemented those things.
So those are the bookends ofkinda what you're talking about.
(07:00):
And I think you're a hundredpercent right.
I know that I need to go to thegym.
I know that I need to eat nutsand not Candy Bar.
I know a lot of things, but Heybuddy, I'm not exactly Mr.
World Fitness here today, right?
Yeah.
The ability to be able toexecute, I think is where we
really have to.
(07:21):
Focus and make sure that ourteam understands that's where
the rubber meets the road.
Most, not all, but most of thestuff we talk about from a
technical standpoint is notbrand new earth shattering.
It's the leadership, it's thecommunication, it's the risk
management, it's the situationalleadership.
(07:41):
I think those are the thingsthat a lot of folks don't
understand, and without them, wecan't move forward.
I may be wrong, but from myperspective, most I, I know a
lot more about the SMRP.
You hear more about that.
Because they're working aboutthe how to and you hear less
about the University ofTennessee model.
And so like you said, they'rereally two different pieces of
(08:03):
the same process that need to beimplemented.
I see that many timesorganizations think, okay, if I
teach'em how to do it, then it'sgonna get done.
But they also need to teach'em alittle bit more on the
effectiveness side, how you do alot of equipping of other people
and sharpening their saw.
But in order to do that, youhave to be.
Continually learning yourself,both from a presentation
(08:25):
standpoint, from a keeping upwith what's cutting edge in the
new technologies and how thecomputer systems and AI and all
those impact what you're doing.
How do you sharpen your saw?
How do you make sure that you'restaying ahead of the game so
that you're fresh with contentto move the organizations that
you work with forward.
(08:46):
I think there's probably threeor four ways that I think I
focus on.
First would be learning from myown team here at iio.
It's awesome to be able to jumpon a quick text message with
three or four of the guys andsay, Hey, here's what I'm
seeing.
What do you know?
What have you seen?
What's your past look like?
Give me examples.
I've got some folks on my teamwho.
Will lead with an example frompast history.
(09:09):
I've got others who will knowexactly what book talks about
that.
Alright.
Okay.
And so it's, that's really coolbecause that then feeds my
engine to say, okay, I need togo grab this book or that book,
or I need to look at this orthat.
And I think that's a big part ofit.
I'm.
Taking a pretty intensive diveinto the psychology side of what
(09:30):
we do right now.
So I'm on probably my third orfourth book and I'm realizing
this is an area that we don't dowell.
I.
It's like we talked aboutcommunication and how we
struggle there earlier.
The psychology is almost like anenabler that most people just
leave on the shelf.
They don't even know about it,so they have to work extra hard
(09:54):
instead of using that as aleverage point, if you will, to
get further along than they wantto go.
So a lot of reading from thatperspective.
So the first two, first oneobviously is with my peers and
having conversations.
And those peers can be here atCIO or it can be peers in the
industry.
I had a great conversation acouple days ago with doc Palmer.
(10:15):
I.
Who a lot of people will knowfrom his planning and scheduling
handbook.
And it's just fun, right?
Yeah.
Because we don't all agree oneverything, but we don't have
to.
We get to talk about it.
And what's funny is the more wetalk, the more we realize we
agreed on most things.
Yes.
Those conversations allow you tosharpen that saw as well.
And then the reading I think isvery important.
(10:37):
AI is its own world.
You can't really read about AIyet because what you're reading
is already old.
Yeah.
In fact, what I read yesterdayis probably no longer valid
today.
AI has been a great tool for usbecause AI does understand ai.
And while it's not perfect inevery way.
That can be another enabler forquickly pulling together large
(10:59):
amounts of data and trying tounderstand, what it means or
draw conclusions from it.
So those are, that's three areasI'm sure.
There's probably more that Icould think of, but those are
three that I think I hit prettyregular.
Yeah.
You touched on AI there.
How do you have a feel about howthat's going to in, in impact
the manufacturing andreliability world?
(11:19):
Do you have any kinda senseabout that?
I have a lot of opinions.
I don't know that I am any moreequipped than anyone else to say
that this is what's gonnahappen.
But I do believe it'll beanother enabler to understanding
best practices.
But I also know we've known manyof the best practices for 50
years and we still haven'timplemented them.
(11:41):
Yep.
So it's not like AI is going tochange the implementation
strategy, it just might enableyou to have more information.
Faster and that sort of thinggoing forward.
I do believe that it will makechanges to predictive
maintenance tools and predictivemaintenance in general.
And anywhere you have vastamounts of data, I think that's
(12:04):
gonna be huge.
If you've got a data lake, youcan almost turn AI loose on that
data lake and learn a lot.
Now you gotta be careful.
Because, it'll also drawconclusions sometimes that maybe
aren't so valid.
Yeah.
So you gotta, you always, atleast for now, you have to gut
check everything that AI doesagainst your experience and your
beliefs.
(12:24):
But are there some tools outthere, I'm ignorant about this.
Are there some tools out therealready on the marketplace for
the reliability professional tohelp'em go in and do analysis of
production data and maintenancedata?
There are.
So there's a couple things, andlike I said, what we talked
about yesterday is no longervalid tomorrow.
But we created something calledthe Reliability robot.
(12:46):
Okay?
And if anybody wants to get toit, they can go to
www.reliabilityrobot.com.
You will have to set up a chatGT account because that's the
backend that we're running iton.
But what we did is we trainedthe reliability robot on a lot
of our.
Blended learning curriculum, ourIBL curriculum.
And so it knows those kinds ofthings.
(13:08):
So now when you ask it aquestion, it can take it and
bounce it against what we knowto be some of those best
practices moving forward.
Wow.
Alright, so that's one example.
I think when you get into thebig data sets, you could
arguably, if you're willing toput your data into the public
domain, you could load it intoany one of the large, they call
(13:31):
them large language models,LLMs.
So this is the chat, GBT, thegr, all the ones that are out
there today.
Those they can really handle.
A lot of data, a lot more datathan a human can really
understand in short order.
So that, that can be veryhelpful.
And then there of course, are alot of companies now that are
(13:53):
incorporating or creating largelanguage models that you don't
have to put your data out in thepublic domain.
Okay.
And those can be really helpfulfor people that are a little
more sensitive about the kind ofinformation they might be giving
out.
That's good.
You go into a lot of differentindustries, a l talk to people
from a lot of differentindustries, speak at
(14:13):
conferences.
What, is there one or two keychallenges that you see the
maintenance and reliabilityprofessionals facing that just
jumps out at you right now?
I think, one of the problemsthat, that we face, and I can
probably rattle off.
Five or six of these, but I'lltry to keep it short.
I would say one of them is thatwe have a tendency to go after
(14:34):
shiny objects.
Okay.
A lot of us are engineers orjust gadget guys, right?
And so we see some shiny newobject and we go all in, oh we
would be so much more reliableif we just had industrial
internet of things, if we justhad sensors on all of our
assets.
Yeah.
No, you wouldn't.
(14:54):
Because you'd do the same thingwith the data that you've been
doing with the data for the last25 years, right?
If you're reactive, throwing abunch of sensors on the assets
is not going to make you initself less reactive.
In fact, there's a study out ofMIT that says technology
implementations in general havea negative seven return on
investment.
That is not a good return.
(15:15):
You can't make that up onvolume, right?
It's not that I'manti-technology, please don't
misunderstand, but what I wouldsay is missing for a lot of
these folks is they don't wannado the process work.
They don't wanna map the currentstate process and then
understand the target stateprocess, right?
They don't wanna do the raci,whatever you wanna call it,
(15:38):
responsible, accountableaccount.
Responsible, accountable,consulted and informed or
responsible, accountablesupported, and information or
inputs.
People call'em different things.
They all work the same.
The idea is when you finish, Ihave every process step
outlined, and I know who'sresponsible and what boss is
accountable if it doesn'thappen.
(15:59):
Because that's probably thesecond problem that I think
industry manufacturing as awhole has, and that's a lack of
accountability.
And we do a lot of maintenanceassessments, reliability
assessments, manufacturingassessments.
And in those facilities, they'llalways, not always, many times
they'll say if they would justhold people accountable around
here.
Yeah.
But here's the real dirtysecret.
(16:21):
You can't take someone who justcame outta college and they're
now in a supervisory role andexpect them to know what a best
practice planner looks like orwhat a best practice supervisor
looks like.
Or even, what an operator shouldbe doing.
Yeah.
If they've never done it before.
So if you haven't mapped yourbusiness processes and define
(16:42):
the responsibilities andaccountabilities.
By role then how in the worldcan you expect a new leader in
your organization to holdsomebody accountable?
It's impossible, right?
So from my perspective, the twobig things I would say is we
tend to go after shiny objects.
We don't tend to go after thebusiness processes, and because
(17:03):
of that, we don't understandwho's accountable for what.
Now, let me put a bow on thisbecause here's the interesting
thing.
The same study that I mentionedhad a negative seven return on
investment for technologyshowed, and I think this is
right.
I feel pretty good with thisnumber, that it was about a 27%
return on just.
Getting your processes right,the things we just talked about.
(17:25):
Okay.
And that's a pretty good return.
I think right now with the stockmarket doing what it's doing,
you and I both would take thatone every day.
All day.
Yeah.
But what I think is superinteresting is that same study
said that where both technologyand processes were used
together.
So the processes are enablingthe technology.
The technology is enabling theprocesses.
(17:47):
They had over a 75% return oninvestment.
So this isn't an OR statement.
This is an and statement, right?
Yeah.
We need both of those, but mybelief is you've got to start
with the processes, and if youdon't, you'll have a whole bunch
of shiny technology laying allaround the facility collecting
dust.
You just really.
Crystallized what Jim Collinswrote about, about 20, 25 years
(18:10):
ago with the technologyaccelerators.
Yes.
He said, it's not thattechnology is going to be the
savior of a company.
It's only going to acceleratethe good companies that have
good discipline practices inplace.
And if you haven't read that,you need to go back and read
Good to Great.
Because it really talks aboutall the things that, that you're
talking about there as, as wellas a number of other paradigms.
(18:31):
That's the one that's probablythe least talked about outta
that book.
But it's a, it's, you justexactly nailed what he talked
about.
The companies that went fromGood to Great, they didn't do it
because they implementedtechnology.
They did it because it was ontop of good discipline practices
that they already had in place.
So that, yeah, that's a goodpoint.
I probably should go back andreread that book.
(18:52):
It's probably been 15 yearssince I read it.
I think it would be interesting'cause if I remember correctly,
some of the case studies andcompanies in there have had a
rough 15 years.
Yeah.
So I think it'd be a fun readfrom that perspective.
Because as you and I both know,a lot of companies they lose
their way and, things change andthey don't keep up and, so that
definitely would make that bookprobably pretty enjoyable.
(19:14):
When I was running a plan, Iused to read that every year and
it's probably the book that I'veused the principles out of more
than any other book and whatI've heard Jim Collins address
those issues about the companiesthat have fallen.
He says what has happened isthey've gotten away, they've
brought in new leadership thatthey went away from those
practices and when they wentaway from those practices.
It started to impact them.
(19:36):
So it's a really interestingprocess there.
What are some, we're talkingabout books here.
What are some books that likeyour firing, equip you and
excited you here lately?
I think a topic that we reallyhaven't talked enough about
today from a leadershipstandpoint, and I'm not sure a
lot of people talk about it andin fact I don't even know if
some people believe in it, but Iwould say probably the body
(19:57):
language side has been very funfor me.
Now, this is not part of mypsychology reading.
This is something I dove deep intwo years ago.
But the body language thingbecame really good and I brought
a couple with me.
This is a great book.
I've seen Vanessa speak multipletimes.
She does a wonderful job ofreally starting to explain
(20:17):
what's going on when you'retalking with other people.
Because we all know, just likeyou and I or anybody else, it's
hard to listen and pay attentionto everything that's going on
when another person's talking.
Sometimes you honestly findyourself thinking, okay, what am
I gonna say next?
Or How am I gonna respond?
And as soon as you start doingthat, you're not hearing.
(20:38):
Them anymore.
You're hearing you just like wetalked about with communication
earlier, but the, the other sideof it's that their body's
telling you a whole lot more atthe same time if you're willing
to listen.
And so that's called cues.
That one's called cues.
She has multiple books though Ithink this is her second one.
Her first one I've finished andit's in pretty rough shape'cause
(20:59):
it rode around with me for awhile.
But this is one of hers andeither one of Vanessa Van
Edwards books, I think would begood choices.
This is another really good one.
I've this gentleman, mark, hehas a pretty good presence on
the internet, so I've alsolistened to him quite a bit
talking about some of the thingsand even dissecting sometimes
(21:20):
things that are happening from acurrent event standpoint, which
can be fun.
The big takeaways in here forme.
And that's winning body languageby winning body language by mark
Bowden.
Okay.
And there's a couple other bodylanguage books that arguably are
even better or at the same levelas this one.
Is there one lasting thoughtthat you would like to wrap us
up with today that just the guythat's out there, maybe he's
(21:42):
struggling from a leadershipstandpoint and a word of
encouragement or inspiration youmight give him?
I would say try to become moreof a proactive leader as opposed
to a reactive leader.
And I think that's a theme we'vetalked about here today, is.
Doing the pre-work, right?
Yeah.
It's figuring out the riskbefore they happen so that you
can be ready for them instead ofhaving to react to them.
(22:04):
Being intentional, focusing onsuccess, all of those things are
proactive.
Things that we can do from aleadership standpoint.
The reason I say it is.
Because here we are trying totake an organization from being
a reactive maintenanceorganization to being a
proactive maintenanceorganization, but yet we go in
and fight fires from aleadership standpoint every day.
I think, if we're gonna preachthat to our audience our people
(22:27):
our folks that are following uson this journey, then we've
gotta be proactive.
And that's hard.
It's not that I get it rightevery day, that's for sure.
I find myself caught in the dayto day and firefighting and
responding.
We need to step back from that,right?
And try to be more proactive,more intentional, more success
focused.
That's really good.
I really like to call it being ssmokey the bear instead of the
(22:50):
firemen.
But what most cultures do isthey reward the firemen and they
give them the medals and thetrophies, so to speak, but they
do not really recognize thequiet guy over in the corner
that's preventing the forestfires.
We need to do better atrecognizing the Smokey the
bears.
Absolutely that's that, thatgoing back to selling what our
good guys are doing.
(23:10):
Absolutely.
Thanks for your time today.
This has been a great visit.
Lots of gold in here today and Iappreciate your time.
Have a good day.
I appreciate it, mark.
Thanks.
Part two of our interview withSean Eisenhower was some more
great content.
If you did not listen to thefirst episode with him, make
sure you go back and check thatepisode out as well.
Some quotes that I got from himtoday that really stuck with me.
(23:33):
If you can't tell a story aboutwhy the change matters, no one
else will either.
Another one was, leadershipwithout authority is influence.
It's earned not assigned.
The third quote that got me wasthe front line can smell fake
from a hundred feet away.
You don't manage change, youlead it shoulder to shoulder.
(23:57):
Another one reliability isn't aprogram.
It's a promise, a way of workingthat people believe in.
Again, he's there talking abouttrust.
Doubles down with the trusttheme.
Here goes trust compounds and inreliability work trust is the
currency of every decisionpeople make on the shop floor.
(24:19):
The last quote for today is ifyou change initiative dies the
moment you leave the room.
It wasn't led, it was announced.
Those are some powerfulstatements by Sean.
Some great leadership food forthe leader out there on the
front lines, trying to leadchange initiatives and your
programs there on your site.
(24:41):
If you want to get in touch withSean, we'll have his contact
information, his LinkedInprofile, his website, his email
address if you wanna reach outto Sean.
His team has some great trainingavailable in the reliability
space, some great leadershiptraining.
Reach out to him get in touchwith him.
If you're interested in workingwith Sean and their team.
(25:03):
Thank you for listening thisweek.
Make sure that if you've gotvalue out of today's podcast to
give us a five star rating onyour favorite podcast player.
Also looking to show notes forwhere you can subscribe to our
Learning to Lead newsletter thatcomes out every Monday with
great leadership, contentinsights, book reviews that help
(25:24):
you grow as a leader.
To help you go from being a goodleader to a great leader, and as
Craig Rochelle is fond ofsaying, everyone gets better
when the leader gets better, solet's make sure that we go out
and grow, we become a betterleader, and that we influence
our organizations in a greaterway for greater results.
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