November 9, 2021 • 56 mins
Leo interviews LGBTQ+ Educator and Small Business Owner Chris Angel Murphy about their experience being nonbinary in a binary-centric society. They also discuss the process of distinguishing personal identity from childhood trauma as well as when to prioritize your safety vs. others'.
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By: Leo Yockey
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:14):
Hello, and welcome to anotherepisode of the Leo Yockey Show,
the show where I Leo Yockeyinterview guests about their
unique life paths. How's itgoing? How were the last couple
of weeks, it felt weird. Nothaving an episode to work on
last week. But it was good,because as you heard, I was very
(00:35):
sick. And this gave me a chanceto recover. Anyway. I know I say
this every week. But I'm reallyexcited about this guest. And I
know I say this every week too.
But I'm really excited for thisguest. My guest today is Criss
Angel Murphy, and LGBTQ pluseducator and a small business
(00:56):
owner. I met them through amutual friend Jacob, shout out
to Jacob, who was aware of thework that both Criss Angel and I
were doing, and thought that wewould be good guests for each
other's podcasts. And Jacob wasright. I was just on Chris
angels podcast last week.
(01:19):
Actually, Ally ship is a verb,there's a link in the show
notes. Definitely check it out.
It's a great podcast, I would besaying that even if I wasn't a
guest. But you know, now thatI'm a guest, I especially think
that I asked all of my guestsoff Off mic, if there's anything
that they want me to cut orleave out, I'm not here trying
(01:40):
to do any gotcha type shit. Ifsomeone doesn't feel good about
something that they said, I wantthem to have the chance to cut
it, I want them to be able tofeel safe in expressing
themselves authentically. Andthat's a part of that, for me is
allowing things to be removedafter the fact. So I had
messaged Criss Angel, and Isaid, Hey, you know, is there is
(02:01):
there anything that you want meto cut, especially because as
you'll see, you know, we getinto some personal topics today.
And they didn't really haveanything that they want to cut.
But they were worried about theepisode being a little bit too
heavy. I want to address that.
Because we are going to coversome heavy topics. And I'll
(02:24):
allow this to be the contentwarning, you know, we're going
to be talking about homophobiaand transphobia. Sexual Abuse,
like all those kinds of things.
You know, when I first met ChrisAngel, we ended up having about
an hour and a half conversationon Zoom. And we talked about
some really deep topics. CrissAngel is like me trans
(02:45):
masculine. And a lot of what wetalked about came from that
shared experience. I talk a lotabout joy. And I you know,
living a life of joy is reallyimportant to me. But what I
don't want is for joy to beconfused with toxic positivity.
I'm not joyful, because I thinkthat my life is somehow void of
(03:07):
bad experiences. I'm joyfulbecause the dark experiences are
so ever present that at anymoment of light that I'm able to
grasp on to, I'm going tocherish and in speaking about
those dark moments and sharingit with another person making
that shame decrease in size.
(03:31):
Because I feel like we all feela lot of shame when it comes to
the dark parts of our lives. Itmakes it easier to feel joy in
during the bright spots. Being ahuman being is complex. Having a
large capacity for love usuallycomes at this kind of price.
It's important to me that wevalue and honor these parts of
us and allow space for them tobe. So I really appreciate Criss
(03:56):
Angel for opening up to me andallowing a safe space for me to
open up to them, especially ontheir podcast again, you know,
please check, please check outally ship is a verb. And you
know, this is what season two ofthe Leo Yockey show is all
about. I want people to be ableto feel like they can be a fly
on the wall for conversationsthat they wouldn't normally be
(04:16):
privy to. This is this tends tobe a pretty common theme with a
lot of trans people in my lifeis you know, we talk about
really heavy topics becausethey're a part of our lives and
they're a part of our story. Andwe don't see that being
discussed in the mainstream sowe have to discuss it with each
(04:37):
other. So I really hope that youenjoy this episode as much as we
enjoyed recording it. Andwithout further ado, here is
Chris Angel MurphyAll right, Criss Angel. I don't
know how this is gonna go. Weboth have had interesting days
(04:57):
but I'm I'm happy to have youhere. How are you doing?
You know, I'm doing okay, howabout yourself?
I am, I'm doing much better nowI can feel both sides of my
mouth. I had dental work donetoday, but I'm feeling I'm
feeling better. Still a littlebit of pain. So I'm glad that
we're doing my show, not yourshow, because my guests end up
(05:20):
doing more talking than I do,which is ideal for me right now.
Right? Oh, totally. It's funny.
Cuz then when I think aboutdental work, now I have the
like, I can't feel my face whenI'm with you, like line of a
song stuck in my head. Right?
And I wonder if anyone's everlike having that motor moment
(05:41):
from what is it like 16 candlesor something where they have
like the boom box, and they'relike, blasting that while
they're in their dentalappointment or something
thinking they're cute. I don'tknow, I don't know why my mind
just went there. But that's whatI was thinking of just now. So
this is gonna be an interestingconversation.
I'm loving it already. You saythat. And my mind goes to the
(06:04):
next tick tock trick is I wasthinking while I was sitting
there in the dentist's chair,I'm like, I'm having a blast.
Just sitting there with mythoughts is kind of meditative.
But I'm also aware that a lot ofpeople struggle with that they
struggle with going that longwithout being on their phone. I
mean, this procedure took likean hour. And and so now I'm
thinking that there's going tobe a trend where teenagers
(06:26):
record themselves at thedentist, with that song playing
like that, that song will be thesound for the TIC tock trend.
And it's just like, recordyourself at the Just kidding.
Novocainewhen I love the unintentional
pun of when you're talking aboutthem like blasting. So good job,
they're well done. Well done.
(06:50):
Thank you. I do and I can.
Before before we get too muchfurther, I do want to give you a
chance. So peek behind thecurtain for the listeners, Criss
Angel, and I just recently metvirtually because I was sad to
hear that you were in Denvernow. But now I have someone to
visit in Denver. Denver is acity I've always wanted to
visit. So you know. There's abright side of silver lining
(07:14):
there. But a mutual friendintroduced us and said, Hey, you
have a podcast, you have apodcast, you could probably be
on each other's podcast. Ready?
Go. Right. So we met and wechatted for what like an hour
and a half the other day. It wasgreat. And now we're friends.
And I hope I'm not being too farby saying that we're friends.
(07:38):
Great. You're shaking your head.
No, great. No, isn't I'm notbeing too far.
Just to clarify. Yeah, we knowwe're friends. Now. That
happened.
Great. So. So all that beingsaid, I just like to give you a
chance to kind of plug yourpodcast right at the top, just
to kind of and because I thinkthat's also a very good
(07:58):
introduction into just what youdo when you're not chilling in a
zoom with me. Yeah, is most ofyour time.
We'll see. We'll see. Yeah,well, my podcast is called ally
ship as a verb. And it's aboutexploring LGBTQ plus ally ship,
(08:21):
and also being intersectionalabout it. So people with many
different lived experiences, I'mtrying to get like a whole range
going of different experiences,because it's still fresh. I
barely just started it in Augustof 2021. So I mean, it's it's
super fresh, but it's just achance to talk about concrete
(08:48):
tips. So each guest talksthrough at least one ally ship
tip. I also try to ask themabout a time maybe they missed
the mark in what they would dodifferently to just sort of
humanize it. Because I thinksometimes folks can be afraid of
saying the wrong thing or notbeing sure what questions they
can ask. So I'm trying to solvefor that through this podcast
and not be the only voice. And Ithink it's a good experience so
(09:12):
far. We'll see just trying tomake it through that first year,
because I know so many podcastsfade out over time. But yeah,
it's it's a passion of mine, forsure. And it's one of my new
favorite things that I do. Soyeah, and I will say quickly to
that. What's interesting is mostof my listeners are queer and
(09:34):
trans. So it's not even just forpeople outside of the LGBTQ plus
community, because part of how Isee ally ship is that we can
also be allies to each other andeven in certain episodes. People
talk about being an ally tothemselves and what that means
for them. And so I think there'sall these interesting layers
(09:55):
that I wasn't even thinkingthrough when I started this
podcast because it's also newbut Yeah, that's my baby right
now. And I'm loving it. That'scool. Congratulations on the new
baby. My My baby is alsorelatively young. I started this
podcast, I'm already on seasontwo yet, but I started in May.
Because I remember there was awhole thing with my first guest
(10:15):
about neither of us like StarWars. And yet, the first episode
was coming out on May the fourthso you know, but I love what I
love that your podcast focuseson intersectionality I love that
it's evolved already, just sincestarting it because mine kind of
did the same thing. I was like,Alright, I know where I'm going
(10:38):
with this. But let's see, that'skind of the reason why I started
the second season, I didn't goin with a preconceived idea of
how many episodes I wanted todo, it just kind of ended up,
you know, that the theme waschanging so rapidly that I want
to like kind of end the seasonand go in a very deliberate, new
direction. But yeah, I love thatthe focus on intersectionality.
(11:03):
I don't I don't know if you feelcomfortable sharing your gender
and your sexuality here on thispodcast for context for the
listeners?
Sure, yeah. I think someimportant things to know about
(11:24):
me are I'm white, I'm disabled.
I'm queer, and trans and nonbinary, and my pronouns are they
them?
Awesome. Thank you for sharingthat. And I think what's what's
so interesting to me, is, youknow, you're talking about
(11:46):
intersectionality, and you haveall these different identities.
And former guests of the show,Ali Santos, we were talking a
lot about, you know, we, we'vebeen told, you know, you can't
judge a book by its cover. Andyet, that's all we ever do. And,
(12:06):
you know, when someone looks atme now, all they would see is a
black man. And they marinate,they may or may not know that
I'm also half white, theydefinitely wouldn't be able to
guess just by looking at me thatI'm first gen, they wouldn't be
able to guess just by looking atme that I'm trans. And so
there's all of these differentintersections that you just
(12:30):
don't see. And so in yourexperience, you know, you
identify as, as non binary, yougo by they them pronouns, but a
passerby on the street, if theysee you are probably going to
read you as a sis, white man,which is a very loaded identity
(12:52):
to be to be recognized as inthis day and age. And I would
just love to kind of have aconversation about like, what,
what that's even been like, it'salmost like, Man, this isn't
going to be the right word touse, but it is almost like, it's
like you have like, you've takenon the like, appearance of like,
(13:15):
the enemy, so to speak. You knowwhat I mean? Yeah, like you're
still struggling with some ofthe pain and harm that comes
from white supremacy that stemsfrom toxic masculinity. And yet,
people who see you on the streetwould just assume that you're
quote, part of the problem like,has that created some any kind
(13:36):
of like, cognitive dissonancefor you?
Yeah, it messes with me a lot,because it hasn't been my lived
experience. And so the otherpart of that, too, that feels
important to acknowledge is thatmost of the time, especially if
I start speaking, or if I getcomfortable at all, then people
(13:56):
will assume I'm a gay man, whichadds another complexity to that.
So sometimes that part, ifsomeone's perceiving me to also
be a gay man, on top of allthose other things that they're
believing or trying to readabout me, sometimes that might
make them more comfortable, orit can backfire and make me feel
(14:16):
incredibly unsafe. Yeah. BecauseI just have such deep rooted
fears around hate crimes, likeI'm worried that's how my story
is going to end. Yeah. And sothat's why it's tricky for me.
(14:37):
So I mean, I'll just say it. Ifeel like now that people
perceive me this way. I haveupgraded in certain ways, and I
think that's really messed upbecause not much about me has
changed. I'm a little bit morecomfortable in my skin. I feel
like I'm living moreauthentically, but I didn't do
(14:59):
anything To deserve having myword carry more weight and
conversations, or just certainother things that happen, you
know, or, you know, even if I'mout with a friend, or on a date
with someone, that would beconsidered to be the opposite
gender, and I'm gonna use quotesthere with that. But what will
(15:22):
happen is they, you know, fourout Yeah, four out for a meal or
something, they'll pass me thebill, or just weird little
things like that that happen allthe time. And then the person
I'm with, will usually have agood laugh about it. But that's
just a way of coping, becauseit's just really painful that we
keep upholding these standards.
And so I think what's beeninteresting about the pandemic
(15:44):
is I've lost my callus to theworld. And what I mean by that
is, I am so much more hurt nowby being misgendered all the
time. So every time I have tocall someplace, and they call
me, sir, every time I maybe goswing by to a coffee shop, and
they said, Mr. Or Boss, what thehell is boss? Yeah, I can't tell
you. And like, I think whatmakes me the most uncomfortable
(16:06):
about that is it's usually aperson of color. Who's calling
me boss. I'm like, No, this issome weird like, this feels even
extra gross with our history ofslavery and everything. And
knowing that that's still veryreal to this day. Like, please,
that's the last thing I want tobe called. And so it's just
created all of these interestingconversations, because I think I
(16:27):
don't want to just say thatevery single transversion person
is going to have thisexperience. But having, yeah,
again, just move to this, thisdifferent way of being read, I
just am treated so much moredifferently. And it feels gross,
I don't like it, because I'mstill not being honored for who
(16:48):
I am. But it does createinteresting conversations with
friends, it does createinteresting conversations when
I'm educating people or I'mtraining or I'm speaking or
something like that, because Ialso do a lot of LGBTQ on a one
or trans one on one orfoundational stuff for companies
and things like that. So it justgives me this unique opportunity
(17:08):
to talk about why I missed thewomen's restroom, you know, and
how that felt so much safer. Andit's just like everything I do
now, though, doesn't feel likeit's about my safety, it feels
like it's about other people'ssafety. I think a really good
example of that, that we werediscussing when we first met was
that, especially when I wasgoing to school, in my
(17:33):
Bachelor's, but definitely by mymasters when I was in a social
work program, and it'spredominantly women. And so as I
was medically transitioning, andI'm careful to talk about that,
because like, if I choose totalk about it, it's one thing
(17:55):
but I do want to remind folkslistening, don't just like ask
me about it, because it's goingto catch me off guard, and I'm
going to shut down. Because it'snot what I want to talk about.
There's so many other uniqueaspects to me, but I will talk
about it now. But when I wasmedically transitioning, and
people started reading me moreas male, or as a man,
(18:16):
it just, I wasn't prepared forthat. And so at night, in
particular, when I would havesome late night classes, you
know, I'd be walking to my caror something. I noticed that
people I perceived to be women,because I don't know, it's an
assumption I'm making. Theywould click clutch their purse
(18:37):
and walk a lot faster away fromme, I didn't realize, Oh, I'm
like this threat now. Like youdon't, I can't like shut out No,
it's okay. I'm a teddy bear.
Like, I'm not gonna steal yourphone or something worse, right.
And so, I can't do that all Ican do is be. And this This
feels gross in certain ways forme, because again, it's, I'm,
(19:00):
I'm not being seen for me, butall I can do is just be like,
another example of them beingsafe, you know, and it feels
like this huge responsibility Ihave. But I also deal with a lot
of anxiety. And so even if I'min like a spin class or
something like that, and usuallythey'll have mirrors. I don't
(19:22):
feel comfortable being behindpeople, again, that I perceive
to be perhaps women, because Idon't want them to think of
staring at their butt, you know,and I'm trying not to, like,
make eye contact with thembecause I don't want to make
them uncomfortable. And I thinkwhat messes with my mind the
most to is that it could easilyfall to the other side of oh, I
(19:44):
don't feel safe. Can you walk meto my car and that has happened
to me before where someone'sasked that. It's like, I don't
feel much safer than you do. I'mnot going to tell you that
because it's gonna make make youuncomfortable probably but I
just I feel like even going tothe men's room, I just I go to
the men's room because, frankly,there aren't a lot of gender
(20:05):
neutral restrooms or familyrestrooms or feel safe or
comfortable to go to. I mean,some of the bigger stores,
bigger chain stores will havethose. And it's great when I can
go into those not worry aboutpeople being like, what are you
doing going in there orsomething, but it just it comes
with a lot. It messes with myhead a lot. I don't feel like
there's a lot of people I cantalk to about it. Because it's
(20:25):
like, part of it's just like,oh, boohoo you've upgraded in
the world how sad for you. Butlike it's a super. It's there's
just like all these mind gamesfor me. And I still haven't
really quite processed it.
Because this just hasn't been myexperience. And I was socialized
to fear the very person that Inow look like, yeah, and I can't
(20:48):
control especially when I'mtaking testosterone, I can't
pick and choose what that lookslike. You know, I sprouted like
a chia pet my legs, my arms arehairy. I couldn't control that.
That wasn't something I waslooking forward to really. And,
you know, I've learned to lovethat about myself. But there's
just something around, I'm stillfiguring out how to just be
(21:10):
authentically me. Not worriedabout how people are perceiving
me, but I do take it seriously.
At the same time, the safetycomponent as far as how I'm
taking up space, and if I'munintentionally making someone
else feel unsafe, that that'snot cool to me. So I do want to
be privy to that and be alert tothat. But I just Yeah, it's like
I'm constantly going againstthis assumption. It just and I
(21:36):
hate it. I hate it. That's astrong word. But I genuinely do.
Because yeah. I don't know why Ijust do I just Yeah, I just
people aren't seeing me for me.
And I don't want to have to wearlike pronoun pins on my shirt
every day saying they thempronouns or constantly have to
(21:57):
say, Oh, actually, I'm nonbinary, which I've been starting
to do and trying to be morecomfortable with that. But it's
really hard, especially beingsomeone who's trying to get out
of people pleasing. So it's justa mess. It's a hot mess. Yeah. I
mean, that's this is the stuffyou got to like, work out in
therapy. Right. So. But I thinkit's also important to be able
(22:18):
to talk about it with otherpeople. Um, but yeah, this has
been my experience so far.
Absolutely think thank you somuch for sharing all that. And,
and you're right, it's somethingthat, you know, theoretically,
we should discuss in therapy.
But I think that there's somuch, there's so much value in
having these conversations withsomeone who gets it, the reality
(22:40):
is that most therapists aregoing to be cisgendered, you
know, and the more the more thatI hear you talk, and just
listening to your story. And,you know, I resonate with a lot
of different aspects of it.
(23:00):
Because, you know, it's, it'sthe same thing for me where it's
like, all of a sudden, I'mexpected to be the tough guy in
some situations, and it's like,I've never been in a fight in my
life with anyone of any gender,like, I'm not going to be able
to protect anyone get out ofhere, you know, right. And, but
(23:20):
but so much of what I'm hearingis, our, our perceptions, when
we go out into the world are solimited, so lazy, really, when
you get down to it, becauseI've, I've also had experiences
where people assume that I'mgay, because of the way that I
(23:43):
talk, or because of a lot of myfriends or cisgendered women, or
because I know a lot about gayculture. And the fact that our
expectations of what a man isand what a man looks like, and
how a man acts in our society isso limited. It is kind of
(24:09):
pathetic. I mean, I watched thisvideo, I wish I remember this
guy's name, but it was a videodone by a trans guy. And he, he
said that our perception ofgender has we learned about
gender when we're like, five,when we're in kindergarten, it's
like, boys are over here, andgirls are over here. And we're
different. And that's that, andthen we don't really explore
(24:29):
that at all ever for the rest ofour lives. Because we, we we
encounter someone and we go intoall these different assumptions
about, oh, maybe you're gay, ormaybe you're this nuclear that
we're not even thinking aboutthe spectrum of gender. We're
still thinking in this binaryway. And there's just the box
(24:55):
that men are in is so tiny, andthen the idea that anyone can
even exist Just outside ofeither the box of what it means
to be a man or the box of beinga man at all, in your case, just
doesn't even enter people'sminds. And, you know, and I, and
I think that, I think that, youknow, it, it's like your, your,
(25:19):
that that's what makes it sotricky because you're, I think
you're on the right track.
Prioritizing other people'ssafety, but it's also bad is
another binary way of thinking,I'm so frustrated by how often
the way that we view things inour society is so binary. And I
attribute a lot of that toChristianity, really, because I
(25:43):
think Christianity as a beliefsystem is very binary. And it's
baked into a lot of the way thatwe think. And, you know, it's
like, you're either you'reeither the threat or you're
being threatened, like, there'sno, there's no in between where
it's like, Hey, we're all kindof feeling uncomfortable here,
like let's talk about, or let'screate spaces for everybody to
(26:06):
be able to talk about it,because it's not always going to
be appropriate for everybody ofall identities and all
backgrounds to come together andtalk about these things. Right.
But it's, it's so weird. And itall comes back to toxic
masculinity. It's, it's man, youtouched on a lot of interesting
stuff, just with sharing yourstory. So I really appreciate
(26:27):
that.
Yeah. And I think an interestingway that I can talk about it
just to take it a little bitfurther as let's talk about the
restrooms. When I would go tothe women's restroom, I felt a
lot safer. But the problem wasis that has my features became
(26:48):
what we would call moremasculine. there started to be a
point where it wasn't safe forme to go anymore. Because I
started getting dagger eyes arepeople saying you're in the
wrong restroom or doing thedouble take? Making sure they
were in the right restroom? Imean, there's the whole gamut.
Yeah. And you know, I It's weirdbecause it, it's not like I have
(27:12):
a card that says I belong hereor something, you know, but
there was this very distinctmoment where I knew it wasn't
safe to do that anymore. But Ihad no idea what the men's room
was like. So that was scary tome. To this day. just fast
forward as a spoiler alert. Istill plan my days around the
restroom. In terms of like,yeah, where I'm going to go
where it's going to be safe.
Asleep. It Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
(27:39):
That I'll leave it at that.
Yeah. And that's another waythat I missed the women's
restroom. It's been a lotcleaner in my experience. But
yeah, I, I feel like I have tolike bloodshot up. I feel like
I've got to puff up. I've got aI've got to do that. And because
I very quickly learned no onetaught me this directly. I just
(27:59):
figured it out by going into therestroom. I figured out very
quickly, you don't look at eachother. You don't talk to each
other. You don't pee next toeach other. Even if you're in a
stall, and you're like addedtoilet paper or something. I
don't know what to tell you.
Like, you still don't talk topeople. Whereas in the women's
(28:21):
restroom again, my experiencewas that, you know, oh, hey,
your shirt tags sticking out. Igot you let me help you out. Or,
you know, oh, hey, I need a fewsheets of toilet paper, which,
obviously, you need, like morethan few sheets, but Right. Like
you'd ask for that. And it'd befine. I mean, shoot, some people
would have like the Mary Poppinsbag and be like, are you
(28:43):
lighter, heavy? I got you ifyou're on your period. But you
know, it was just it was it wasso much better. But again, that
was when I was being read atleast anywhere near as a woman.
But the tricky part is, is it'sjust it's always been a little
bit tough for me, because theclosest language I had when I
was growing up was tomboy. Yeah,that was that was all I had,
(29:06):
because we weren't teachingabout gender and sexuality
really in schools other thanthat very binary thinking that
you were talking about. And sothat was the closest language I
had. So I latched on to it. Butwhat what was interesting is
that when I was younger, and Imean like elementary school, it
was praised that I was a tomboy.
It was cool. It was like I wasstraddling both worlds of, you
know, man and woman. Becauseagain, limited thinking limited,
(29:30):
you know, language and all ofthat. But especially as I got to
like middle school, it wasn'tpraised anymore. It was actually
seen as a very negative thingbecause I wasn't being lazy
like, Yeah, and so, honestly,it's like, I just don't get a
break because the gender policeare always going to come at me.
(29:51):
Whether it's sis people, transpeople. I mean, I've heard all
sorts of things in my life. I'vehad therapists tell me that I
wasn't really, at one point whenI was identifying as
genderqueer. I had a therapisttold me who was a trans woman,
by the way, that it wasn'treally gender queer. I was
hiding behind that identitybecause I wanted a harder life.
(30:12):
And that messed me up so bad. Iremember cuz I was riding a
motorcycle, those those days, ittook me like 10 minutes to calm
down enough to be able to ridemy bike home. And I never saw
her again. But that's when Irealized that was one of those
shifts, right. And for me, thiswas around like, 2008 or so that
was one of those shifts where Iwas like, wow,
(30:39):
our community doesn't always getalong. archaeon community, the
larger LGBTQ plus community canbe gatekeeping as well. And so
like, you know, friends evenwould fight with me like, well,
you can be gender queer again,when I first came out as gender
queer background, Lync 2007 Orso they were like, oh, you know,
(31:00):
you can be gender queer, but Idon't feel comfortable with you
exploring medical transition.
You know, I don't, I don't feelcomfortable with the idea of you
getting surgeries and stuff. Andit's like, well, it's not for
you to agree on. I'm asking foryour support. I'm asking you to
say like, cool, I love you. I'mhere for you. What can I do to
support you? You know, I'm notasking for validation. And so
(31:20):
that was really hard. And, youknow, I've lost a lot of friends
too, because one of the otheridentities I carried for a while
because, quote, unquote, friendsbullied me into it was, I did
identify as a butch lesbian fora period of time. But it didn't
resonate. I knew it didn'tresonate. But there was so much
by phobia, that when I wascoming out there, just like,
(31:47):
that's, that's not possible. Youjust switch lesbian get over it.
And so I just, I feel like Ijust don't make anyone happy.
Because then even if I say,Okay, well today, today, the
language that resonates the mostis, like I mentioned earlier,
queer, trans and non binary,they're like, Yeah, but you have
a beard. Or and she's supposedto be like androgynous? And it's
like, no, like, no that, like, Ican express that however I like.
(32:10):
Yeah. I don't know if I want tobe like, take after like, Mr.
Potato Head or something. Justchange it up. Like, just let me
do that. Let me be happy. That'swhat I wanted to I don't know.
So yeah, I mean, back to whatyou were talking about as a
Christianity like, what is it? Imean, I think there's a lot of
institutions, we could sit thereand point at and name and at the
(32:32):
end of the day, I'm just tryingto live my life, I don't want to
have to be hyper vigilant andwonder and worry if I'm making
people of particular gendersuncomfortable with my presence.
I don't want to worry if I'mglitch enough to survive an
interaction with people. I mean,heck, you know, and this is
really hard to say. Butsometimes I've struggled with
(32:55):
wondering if I'm karma of mydad's choices he had made in his
life, because especially beforeI came out to him, and this was
around high school time now forme, I remember hearing about
how, like, sometimes gay menwould hit on him or something.
And I don't know all thespecifics. I just know that if
(33:15):
he felt they weren't leaving himalone, when he said no, and I'm
just going off of what he sharedwith me. If they didn't end
there, he would go and beat themup. And, and the other part that
was hard to hear too, was fromanother person. My mom who I
(33:36):
don't speak to anymore, but shehad told me that he had also had
trans panic on someone beforehe'd never shared that story
with me. So to hear that from mymom was horrifying. And yeah,
it's a lot to process. And soyeah, apparently he was on a
date with a woman didn't knowthat she was trans. So he
(33:58):
freaked out, beat her up andleft. And I'm just like, wow, so
I'm his kid. And I'm supposed tocome out to him. Right? Like, I
kept thinking that I'm in andagain, at the point of hearing
that story about the trans panicdefense, which isn't a thing.
You can't be violent withsomeone in that way. It just
(34:20):
Yeah, I don't know. It's just alot, a lot to process. And I
just feel like there's a lotthere, because I'm ashamed. And
toxic masculinity just feels sogross to me. And so anytime I'm
associated with that, that'shard. And again, I just all I
(34:42):
can do is just, even though it'snot my gender, just be another
example of not being that jerk.
You know, and I mean, I've donethose rideshare things before
where I was the driver, and I'dhave you know, a few guys drunk
My car sang Oh, I can't believeyou like that song that's so gay
(35:03):
and did whatever to each other.
I know that it would be expectedof me to check them on that, but
they're drunk, there's three ofthem. I've got to feel safe to.
So yeah, that's just like thisawkward dance I'm trying to do
for the rest of my lifebasically, is just figure out.
(35:25):
What do I do with all of this?
Yeah, and, and I would argue inin those kinds of situations, it
should not be the expectationthat you that you educate them,
because you're right, you don'tknow what they're going to do.
This isn't, you know, this isn'teducation corner, this is I'm
(35:47):
doing my job, and I got to gethome safely. But I think that
that's, that's so interesting,you hit on a couple of really
interesting things, you know,talking about your dad, and I
appreciate you sharing that thathistory. You know, I have just
had a camera view here, I havesome pictures, old pictures of
(36:10):
family members, including mygrandfather. And the reality is
that I really don't know how mygrandfather would have taken me,
you know, he died when I wasabout one year old. So we never
had the chance to develop arelationship. But I know that he
(36:31):
was a World War Two that I knowhe's from that generation. I
know that. I don't know if hehad anger problems, but I know
he kind of emotionally abusedhis kids, I know that he stopped
having a relationship with mymom for a while when she chose
to marry a black man, aka mydad. And he, they came back
(36:52):
around when she got pregnantwith my older brother. But and
it sounds like they did have agood relationship up until the
end there. But I really don'tknow how he would have reacted
to my sexuality, which developedinto my gender identity. But at
the same time, I can recognizethat his his reactions to things
(37:18):
in the way that he acted. It,it's such a fine line, you know,
excusing that behavior. And not,of course, you know, something
like that happening today wouldbe considered inexcusable. But
the idea that this man wouldhave had access to the
(37:38):
information and experiencerequired to know better, is not
really fair for me to expect ofthis man who was born in 1922,
and died in 1993, as a whiteman, World War Two that you know
what I mean. And, you know,there was no Internet, there was
no being able to meet peoplefrom other cultures, there was
(38:02):
no going to therapy, like, therewasn't any of that. And I think,
you know, that. So that's kindof something that I try to think
about, in my experience, to kindof like, wrap my brain around
all that, and I keep thispicture of still, because I do
think that it's important for meto remember that that history is
(38:22):
in my blood is in my veins,because the reality is that, you
know, none of us are too farremoved from other people,
something that one human iscapable of, we're all capable
of, and I, I like having thatreminder of, like, I need to
continue to surround myself,around people with whom I can I
can learn from, and, you know,to constantly move that needle
(38:48):
towards progress in our society,because it's, I could just as
easily slip back into those oldways of thinking. But also with
with the, you know, with thepolicing that came from both as
a kid when you came out as biand your friends are like, No,
you're a butch lesbian. Andpeople even, you know, trying to
(39:11):
police your gender identity.
Now, as a non binary person, Ifeel like that's kind of the
same, the same thing, we have alot more access to knowing
better now. And the, the amountthat this is acceptable is going
down, but I can see how muchthings have even changed just
from like, when we were kids,you know, like I being trans is
(39:31):
so much more in the lexicon nowthan it was even 15 years ago
when I was in middle school.
And, you know, who knows if Iwould have ever had that I'm a
lesbian phase if I was in middleschool today, versus back then.
But I think that one thing thatI try to remind myself and I
(39:53):
hope it's something that thelisteners think about if they
have ever found themselvesassuming that a non binary
person has dislike androgynouslook or feel to them is
when we start to think in thatterm, it's still very binary, it
by design, you know, it'stechnically not because it's
(40:14):
more than two but you'rebasically just assuming a fully
fledged out third genderthere's, there is man, there is
woman and there is non binary,which is an exact right in the
middle and it's like it. It's,it's, it's better than thinking
that there's only man andthere's only woman in the room
(40:34):
we just live in these binaries,but it's still, it's still not
it's still missing the mark andit's really not understanding
the spirit behind, you know,breaking down the gender binary
it's not just about oh, Iidentify with a little bit of
both or neither. It's it. Youknow what I mean,
(40:57):
this. And I mean, for somepeople that is their experience.
I mean, certainly, one I used tospeak on PFLAG panels and things
like that. I even oddly enough,I used to have a column in
lesbian news magazine that wascalled Life as a spork. So when
I was identifying asgenderqueer, for me, my
(41:18):
definition of that meant that Iwas tapping into those energies,
but to various degrees. And so Iwould tell people, imagine a
spork. Right. And that was mywhole thing. And I literally and
I still have them to this day,for nostalgia purposes. I had
this titanium spork, I had it inmy pocket ready to go? Right
(41:41):
when I was about to say thatline, and just whip it out of my
pocket. And like, you know, itwas the whole thing. And it was
a branding. And there was apoint where that didn't feel
right anymore. And so that's,that's the thing is, when people
want to create the argument ofWell, well, if we teach it in
the schools, then it's justgoing to be rampant. And it's
(42:04):
like, no, because you've beentrying to shove straight down my
throat and sis down my throat.
And that hasn't been working.
It's not how I identify at allthere. And there's been ample
examples of that everywhere.
Right? Even even today. So knowthat that's, that's not it. But
what it would have done if wewere better about teaching it in
(42:26):
our schools, especially when itcomes to sex ed being fact
based, inclusive, and that'sstill not across the board the
United States. There's very fewstates where that's even a
thing. And even then it's up tothat teacher to get it right.
Yeah. So that being said, if Ijust had had the language
sooner, if people allowed me tojust like, mess around and find
out and figure out what mygender was, and my sexuality, it
(42:48):
would have saved me so muchgrief, but it did feel like this
private thing. It did feel likesomething that I was doing that
was wrong, because that was thereaction. So you know, you talk
about this, like transnarrative, sometimes this arc
that exists of, you know, okay,well, here are the toys I played
with. And okay, I was bullied inthis and that. I mean, a lot of
(43:10):
my story does fit that. But itcould have been so different.
And yeah, I think what'sinteresting, too, is I have this
I have roughly the same storywith my grandfather, he passed
away a month after I turned one.
He was in the Korean War. Andhe's also one of my first
(43:32):
memories, which is reallytrippy. I don't know if we'll
have time for that today. Butactually, I will talk about it
because I think it's important.
Yeah, I, I didn't idolize him,but I look to Him for safety. So
I would describe myself as aspiritual person. And I think my
first example of that was him.
Because there was somethingabout like, I'll just, I'll just
(43:55):
say, because this isn't like thetrauma vomit podcast, I'll just
say like, I didn't have the bestchildhood, and all of the kinds
of different abuse you couldimagine were going on in my
home. And I was shamed into, youknow, the motto of the family
was what happens in this housestays in this house. So I didn't
dare say anything to anyone. Andso, but one of my earliest
(44:17):
memories was, you know,sometimes, like, when you're
laying in bed at night, andmaybe if you have your ear to
the pillow in such a way youlike, hear your own heartbeat.
Yeah, I didn't know what thatwas when I was super young. I
internalize that to be Oh, mygrandfather's will taking steps
toward me, and he's gonnaprotect me right now. Anytime
(44:39):
that happened. I thought of him.
And it took years and years andyears to figure out later that I
would finally hear more storiesabout him and what he was like,
and so two things that stood outto me were number one, he was
always holding me so no wonder Iassociate him with a heartbeat.
Yeah, I probably heard hisheartbeat when I was Yeah. When
I was at Biddy, and number two,I just feel like, I wonder
(45:04):
there's this fantasy I have, youknow, sometimes I can get stuck
in the past of what would mylife have been like if he had
been around a little bit longer?
Because my mom used to tell methat, had he been around, a lot
of those things that werehappening to me in my youth
(45:26):
wouldn't have happened becausehe wouldn't have let that fly.
And so when you when you talkedabout wondering, like, what he
would think of you today, Iwonder the same thing about my
grandpa? Because I just don'tknow. And why do I need that
approval? I don't know. Because,I mean, I've got one blood
related family member left thattalks to me, because my dad and
(45:48):
grandma have both passed away.
And those are the people I grewup with. And so I didn't get
their unconditional love untilthe very end, they literally had
to both be on their respectivedeathbeds for that to happen.
Yeah. And so I just wonder, didanyone love me unconditionally?
You know, and so, yeah,sometimes it's just nice to
(46:10):
fantasize and think that yeah,things could have been
different. But that wasn't it.
And I guess the only other thingI want to say to that too, just
in case anyone else relates tothis. Another misconception that
I grew up thinking was that, oh,if you were sexually abused, and
all this, and you're going to begay. And so because that
(46:31):
happened to me, it took me along time to sit through the
sexuality stuff, to sit throughthe gender stuff. And I didn't
have anyone else to tell meotherwise. But I had to make
peace with there was a littlebit of overlap there in terms of
needing to figure out my bodyand being safe with people, and
(46:52):
that they weren't related. Butthey did cause some of the same
experiences of me experiencingdysphoria, or wanting to be out
of my body, or being ashamed ofmy body. And so reconciling that
by myself, was incrediblydifficult. But yeah, that, that
(47:14):
experience those, those sexualexperiences that happened to me
that I had no control over. Inmy youth, were not what caused
me to be who I am today, youknow, that has nothing to do
with my sexuality has nothing todo with my gender. And yeah, I
just I think that was just likean added layer that I had to
(47:35):
work through to find andunderstand that separation.
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank youfor sharing all that. And I
think that that is such apowerful point, I think that,
you know, inner intersectingexperiences can lead to a lot to
unpack. And I think that that iskind of the the unspoken
(48:02):
Brightside are a positive aspectto to not living tend to not
being cisgender is that we dohave a little bit more of a
requirement to really explorewho we are and what all that
means, and to have theopportunity to unpack and
separate what happened to you asa child and how you identify
(48:24):
today. I think that that's,that's really powerful. And I
appreciate you sharing yourexperience with that. Man, I
appreciate you sharing what youhad to say about your
grandfather too, because i ialso have, you know, spirit,
feelings, like I'm spirituallyconnected to this man. And some
(48:45):
of it might just be a fantasy oflike, hoping that this guy would
be, you know, better than hisgeneration or that I could, you
know, if he was around, and heloves me that I could have
changed his mind. Or maybe thereis some connection to something.
I mean, he is, you know, thesepeople, they, you know, DNA gets
(49:06):
passed down trauma gets passeddown your DNA, I mean, pieces of
what they experience, not justeye color and hair type, the
actual pieces of their soul dolive in us. And so I think they
were tapping into something realthere. At least I like to think
that that's the case.
Absolutely. So that went by soquickly. Oh, my gosh, we'll
(49:28):
definitely have to do some morelater. We'd love to have you
back on at some point. Before wewrap up, is there anything else
that you feel like you'd beremiss if you if you left it
out?
I don't think so. I think otherthan I mean, these are parts of
(49:50):
my story. I don't talk about alot. It's not because I'm
ashamed of them. I just want tobe mindful too, because
naturally this kind of stuff,especially in this day, He needs
content and trigger warnings,right? Plenty of them throughout
this episode. But yeah, I guess,you know, I made fun of, you
know, a little bit of traumavomit, but I guess I just I feel
(50:11):
compelled to share my storybecause I know that sometimes
people need to hear these kindsof things, because maybe it's
something that they can relateto, or something that they've
experienced. And maybe they canget some healing or from it, you
know, even if it's a little bitor just knowing that they're not
alone, because I think that canmake a huge difference as well.
(50:33):
So it's, you know, I'm doing thework to work through all of
these things. And certainly,they'll absolutely impact me for
the rest of my life. Becauseevery time I feel like I've done
some sort of deep work andresolved something, I'm like,
Oh, nope, there's more trauma,there's to work through. It's
not over, it's just taking adifferent form. But I don't
(50:54):
know, I just, I guess my hope isthat, you know, I'm not looking
for sympathy, I'm not lookingfor like I've had life so
hardships or something, it'smore just that I just hope
someone else can feel a littleless alone. And I feel empowered
now sharing this, these parts ofmy story, because I just don't
want to feel guilt or shamearound them. I don't want them
(51:14):
to have that power over me. AndI think it can take a long time
to get to that point if someonechooses to do that kind of work.
So I'm just proud that I cantalk about it now. And I guess
the only other thing I wouldwant to say is, I appreciate you
allowing me to have thisconversation with you and
creating a safer space so that Icould go there. So thank you for
that.
Yeah, thank you, thank you somuch for sharing, thank you for
(51:36):
trusting me and and this podcastto be a place where you can
share and I, I really appreciateeverything that you've said
about, you know, this being youknow, you are choosing to share
this here, this isn't aninvitation to like, you know,
come at you at your work or DMyou and just start having a
(51:58):
whole conversation about this,you know, and that's really,
that is really what I'm tryingto do this season is just
allowing people to be kind of afly on the wall for
conversations that they're notusually privy to. So I really, I
appreciate you going there withme. Now, I'm going to tell my
listeners now promise thatyou're not going to ask anything
(52:22):
inappropriate. But where canwhere can people find you? And
what what, if anything, wouldyou like to promote?
Absolutely. So if you'reinterested in pursuing LGBTQ
plus ally ship and getting sometips and listening to people's
experiences around that, pleasego to allyship is a verb.com.
(52:45):
And that's where you can findall of the links and full
episode transcriptions andresources. And if you want to
follow me on Instagram, and myawkward adventure there and
whatever I post lots ofinformational stuff about the
LGBTQ plus community, but alsopart of my story as well. You
can find me on Instagram atgender sexuality info.
(53:09):
Awesome. Criss Angel, thank youagain for coming on. I am very
grateful to know you. I think Imean, she's the two
conversations that got so deep.
I mean, this is very clearly thestart of a wonderful friendship,
I think and I look forward tothe next time we get to chat.
Likewise. Thank you so much,Leo. Appreciate it.
(53:34):
Once again, that was Criss AngelMurphy. Criss Angel, thank you
so much for coming on the show.
Thank you so much for yourvulnerability. Thank you so much
for being my new friend, isreally refreshing to be able to
have conversations with peoplewho have been there, you know,
and that that is honestly a hopethat I have for a lot of my
(53:56):
listeners is you know, whateveryour unique life path is they
you have a group or friends or asupport system, whatever the
case may be, that share thatexperience. We can all be allies
and meet each other withcompassion. But it's a whole
different thing entirely whenyou when you can talk to someone
(54:17):
who's been there. Speaking ofwhich, shout out to anybody
who's listening to this thatfound me on Tik Tok. I'm having
a lot of fun on Tik Tok. Ifyou're on Tik Tok, and you're
not following me yet, pleaseconsider following me. I had one
video that ended up getting alot of views. And now all of a
sudden, my follower list is abunch of LGBTQ youth and I use
(54:38):
the term youth a little bitbroadly. It's like people under
25, right? Because when ourbrain stopped developing at 25,
and I know in my life, there's abig difference between you know,
pre 25 and post 25. And it'sjust it's really cool to be able
to be Are the representationthat we didn't have when I was a
(55:01):
youth. Thank you again forlistening and for being on this
journey with me. If you likedwhat you heard, please consider
giving us a five star ratingreview. Wherever you're
listening to this podcast. Takea screenshot make your Instagram
story, tag me at Leo Yockey lEOYOCKEY. Let your friends know
that you're listening. I will beback in two weeks with my very
(55:27):
dear friend Stephanie. Really,really excited for y'all to hear
that one. Until then, stay safeout there. It's Scorpio season.
The days are getting shorter.
The holidays are approaching.
Now I better get going. I've gota lot of stuff coming up in my
world. I'll share about some ofit in future episodes. But until
(55:49):
then, stay evolving.
Hello, and welcome to anotherepisode of the Leo Yockey Show,
the show where I Leo Yockeyinterview guests about their
unique life paths. How's itgoing? How were the last couple
of weeks, it felt weird. Nothaving an episode to work on
last week. But it was good,because as you heard, I was very
(00:35):
sick. And this gave me a chanceto recover. Anyway. I know I say
this every week. But I'm reallyexcited about this guest. And I
know I say this every week too.
But I'm really excited for thisguest. My guest today is Criss
Angel Murphy, and LGBTQ pluseducator and a small business
(00:56):
owner. I met them through amutual friend Jacob, shout out
to Jacob, who was aware of thework that both Criss Angel and I
were doing, and thought that wewould be good guests for each
other's podcasts. And Jacob wasright. I was just on Chris
angels podcast last week.
(01:19):
Actually, Ally ship is a verb,there's a link in the show
notes. Definitely check it out.
It's a great podcast, I would besaying that even if I wasn't a
guest. But you know, now thatI'm a guest, I especially think
that I asked all of my guestsoff Off mic, if there's anything
that they want me to cut orleave out, I'm not here trying
(01:40):
to do any gotcha type shit. Ifsomeone doesn't feel good about
something that they said, I wantthem to have the chance to cut
it, I want them to be able tofeel safe in expressing
themselves authentically. Andthat's a part of that, for me is
allowing things to be removedafter the fact. So I had
messaged Criss Angel, and Isaid, Hey, you know, is there is
(02:01):
there anything that you want meto cut, especially because as
you'll see, you know, we getinto some personal topics today.
And they didn't really haveanything that they want to cut.
But they were worried about theepisode being a little bit too
heavy. I want to address that.
Because we are going to coversome heavy topics. And I'll
(02:24):
allow this to be the contentwarning, you know, we're going
to be talking about homophobiaand transphobia. Sexual Abuse,
like all those kinds of things.
You know, when I first met ChrisAngel, we ended up having about
an hour and a half conversationon Zoom. And we talked about
some really deep topics. CrissAngel is like me trans
(02:45):
masculine. And a lot of what wetalked about came from that
shared experience. I talk a lotabout joy. And I you know,
living a life of joy is reallyimportant to me. But what I
don't want is for joy to beconfused with toxic positivity.
I'm not joyful, because I thinkthat my life is somehow void of
(03:07):
bad experiences. I'm joyfulbecause the dark experiences are
so ever present that at anymoment of light that I'm able to
grasp on to, I'm going tocherish and in speaking about
those dark moments and sharingit with another person making
that shame decrease in size.
(03:31):
Because I feel like we all feela lot of shame when it comes to
the dark parts of our lives. Itmakes it easier to feel joy in
during the bright spots. Being ahuman being is complex. Having a
large capacity for love usuallycomes at this kind of price.
It's important to me that wevalue and honor these parts of
us and allow space for them tobe. So I really appreciate Criss
(03:56):
Angel for opening up to me andallowing a safe space for me to
open up to them, especially ontheir podcast again, you know,
please check, please check outally ship is a verb. And you
know, this is what season two ofthe Leo Yockey show is all
about. I want people to be ableto feel like they can be a fly
on the wall for conversationsthat they wouldn't normally be
(04:16):
privy to. This is this tends tobe a pretty common theme with a
lot of trans people in my lifeis you know, we talk about
really heavy topics becausethey're a part of our lives and
they're a part of our story. Andwe don't see that being
discussed in the mainstream sowe have to discuss it with each
(04:37):
other. So I really hope that youenjoy this episode as much as we
enjoyed recording it. Andwithout further ado, here is
Chris Angel MurphyAll right, Criss Angel. I don't
know how this is gonna go. Weboth have had interesting days
(04:57):
but I'm I'm happy to have youhere. How are you doing?
You know, I'm doing okay, howabout yourself?
I am, I'm doing much better nowI can feel both sides of my
mouth. I had dental work donetoday, but I'm feeling I'm
feeling better. Still a littlebit of pain. So I'm glad that
we're doing my show, not yourshow, because my guests end up
(05:20):
doing more talking than I do,which is ideal for me right now.
Right? Oh, totally. It's funny.
Cuz then when I think aboutdental work, now I have the
like, I can't feel my face whenI'm with you, like line of a
song stuck in my head. Right?
And I wonder if anyone's everlike having that motor moment
(05:41):
from what is it like 16 candlesor something where they have
like the boom box, and they'relike, blasting that while
they're in their dentalappointment or something
thinking they're cute. I don'tknow, I don't know why my mind
just went there. But that's whatI was thinking of just now. So
this is gonna be an interestingconversation.
I'm loving it already. You saythat. And my mind goes to the
(06:04):
next tick tock trick is I wasthinking while I was sitting
there in the dentist's chair,I'm like, I'm having a blast.
Just sitting there with mythoughts is kind of meditative.
But I'm also aware that a lot ofpeople struggle with that they
struggle with going that longwithout being on their phone. I
mean, this procedure took likean hour. And and so now I'm
thinking that there's going tobe a trend where teenagers
(06:26):
record themselves at thedentist, with that song playing
like that, that song will be thesound for the TIC tock trend.
And it's just like, recordyourself at the Just kidding.
Novocainewhen I love the unintentional
pun of when you're talking aboutthem like blasting. So good job,
they're well done. Well done.
(06:50):
Thank you. I do and I can.
Before before we get too muchfurther, I do want to give you a
chance. So peek behind thecurtain for the listeners, Criss
Angel, and I just recently metvirtually because I was sad to
hear that you were in Denvernow. But now I have someone to
visit in Denver. Denver is acity I've always wanted to
visit. So you know. There's abright side of silver lining
(07:14):
there. But a mutual friendintroduced us and said, Hey, you
have a podcast, you have apodcast, you could probably be
on each other's podcast. Ready?
Go. Right. So we met and wechatted for what like an hour
and a half the other day. It wasgreat. And now we're friends.
And I hope I'm not being too farby saying that we're friends.
(07:38):
Great. You're shaking your head.
No, great. No, isn't I'm notbeing too far.
Just to clarify. Yeah, we knowwe're friends. Now. That
happened.
Great. So. So all that beingsaid, I just like to give you a
chance to kind of plug yourpodcast right at the top, just
to kind of and because I thinkthat's also a very good
(07:58):
introduction into just what youdo when you're not chilling in a
zoom with me. Yeah, is most ofyour time.
We'll see. We'll see. Yeah,well, my podcast is called ally
ship as a verb. And it's aboutexploring LGBTQ plus ally ship,
(08:21):
and also being intersectionalabout it. So people with many
different lived experiences, I'mtrying to get like a whole range
going of different experiences,because it's still fresh. I
barely just started it in Augustof 2021. So I mean, it's it's
super fresh, but it's just achance to talk about concrete
(08:48):
tips. So each guest talksthrough at least one ally ship
tip. I also try to ask themabout a time maybe they missed
the mark in what they would dodifferently to just sort of
humanize it. Because I thinksometimes folks can be afraid of
saying the wrong thing or notbeing sure what questions they
can ask. So I'm trying to solvefor that through this podcast
and not be the only voice. And Ithink it's a good experience so
(09:12):
far. We'll see just trying tomake it through that first year,
because I know so many podcastsfade out over time. But yeah,
it's it's a passion of mine, forsure. And it's one of my new
favorite things that I do. Soyeah, and I will say quickly to
that. What's interesting is mostof my listeners are queer and
(09:34):
trans. So it's not even just forpeople outside of the LGBTQ plus
community, because part of how Isee ally ship is that we can
also be allies to each other andeven in certain episodes. People
talk about being an ally tothemselves and what that means
for them. And so I think there'sall these interesting layers
(09:55):
that I wasn't even thinkingthrough when I started this
podcast because it's also newbut Yeah, that's my baby right
now. And I'm loving it. That'scool. Congratulations on the new
baby. My My baby is alsorelatively young. I started this
podcast, I'm already on seasontwo yet, but I started in May.
Because I remember there was awhole thing with my first guest
(10:15):
about neither of us like StarWars. And yet, the first episode
was coming out on May the fourthso you know, but I love what I
love that your podcast focuseson intersectionality I love that
it's evolved already, just sincestarting it because mine kind of
did the same thing. I was like,Alright, I know where I'm going
(10:38):
with this. But let's see, that'skind of the reason why I started
the second season, I didn't goin with a preconceived idea of
how many episodes I wanted todo, it just kind of ended up,
you know, that the theme waschanging so rapidly that I want
to like kind of end the seasonand go in a very deliberate, new
direction. But yeah, I love thatthe focus on intersectionality.
(11:03):
I don't I don't know if you feelcomfortable sharing your gender
and your sexuality here on thispodcast for context for the
listeners?
Sure, yeah. I think someimportant things to know about
(11:24):
me are I'm white, I'm disabled.
I'm queer, and trans and nonbinary, and my pronouns are they
them?
Awesome. Thank you for sharingthat. And I think what's what's
so interesting to me, is, youknow, you're talking about
(11:46):
intersectionality, and you haveall these different identities.
And former guests of the show,Ali Santos, we were talking a
lot about, you know, we, we'vebeen told, you know, you can't
judge a book by its cover. Andyet, that's all we ever do. And,
(12:06):
you know, when someone looks atme now, all they would see is a
black man. And they marinate,they may or may not know that
I'm also half white, theydefinitely wouldn't be able to
guess just by looking at me thatI'm first gen, they wouldn't be
able to guess just by looking atme that I'm trans. And so
there's all of these differentintersections that you just
(12:30):
don't see. And so in yourexperience, you know, you
identify as, as non binary, yougo by they them pronouns, but a
passerby on the street, if theysee you are probably going to
read you as a sis, white man,which is a very loaded identity
(12:52):
to be to be recognized as inthis day and age. And I would
just love to kind of have aconversation about like, what,
what that's even been like, it'salmost like, Man, this isn't
going to be the right word touse, but it is almost like, it's
like you have like, you've takenon the like, appearance of like,
(13:15):
the enemy, so to speak. You knowwhat I mean? Yeah, like you're
still struggling with some ofthe pain and harm that comes
from white supremacy that stemsfrom toxic masculinity. And yet,
people who see you on the streetwould just assume that you're
quote, part of the problem like,has that created some any kind
(13:36):
of like, cognitive dissonancefor you?
Yeah, it messes with me a lot,because it hasn't been my lived
experience. And so the otherpart of that, too, that feels
important to acknowledge is thatmost of the time, especially if
I start speaking, or if I getcomfortable at all, then people
(13:56):
will assume I'm a gay man, whichadds another complexity to that.
So sometimes that part, ifsomeone's perceiving me to also
be a gay man, on top of allthose other things that they're
believing or trying to readabout me, sometimes that might
make them more comfortable, orit can backfire and make me feel
(14:16):
incredibly unsafe. Yeah. BecauseI just have such deep rooted
fears around hate crimes, likeI'm worried that's how my story
is going to end. Yeah. And sothat's why it's tricky for me.
(14:37):
So I mean, I'll just say it. Ifeel like now that people
perceive me this way. I haveupgraded in certain ways, and I
think that's really messed upbecause not much about me has
changed. I'm a little bit morecomfortable in my skin. I feel
like I'm living moreauthentically, but I didn't do
(14:59):
anything To deserve having myword carry more weight and
conversations, or just certainother things that happen, you
know, or, you know, even if I'mout with a friend, or on a date
with someone, that would beconsidered to be the opposite
gender, and I'm gonna use quotesthere with that. But what will
(15:22):
happen is they, you know, fourout Yeah, four out for a meal or
something, they'll pass me thebill, or just weird little
things like that that happen allthe time. And then the person
I'm with, will usually have agood laugh about it. But that's
just a way of coping, becauseit's just really painful that we
keep upholding these standards.
And so I think what's beeninteresting about the pandemic
(15:44):
is I've lost my callus to theworld. And what I mean by that
is, I am so much more hurt nowby being misgendered all the
time. So every time I have tocall someplace, and they call
me, sir, every time I maybe goswing by to a coffee shop, and
they said, Mr. Or Boss, what thehell is boss? Yeah, I can't tell
you. And like, I think whatmakes me the most uncomfortable
(16:06):
about that is it's usually aperson of color. Who's calling
me boss. I'm like, No, this issome weird like, this feels even
extra gross with our history ofslavery and everything. And
knowing that that's still veryreal to this day. Like, please,
that's the last thing I want tobe called. And so it's just
created all of these interestingconversations, because I think I
(16:27):
don't want to just say thatevery single transversion person
is going to have thisexperience. But having, yeah,
again, just move to this, thisdifferent way of being read, I
just am treated so much moredifferently. And it feels gross,
I don't like it, because I'mstill not being honored for who
(16:48):
I am. But it does createinteresting conversations with
friends, it does createinteresting conversations when
I'm educating people or I'mtraining or I'm speaking or
something like that, because Ialso do a lot of LGBTQ on a one
or trans one on one orfoundational stuff for companies
and things like that. So it justgives me this unique opportunity
(17:08):
to talk about why I missed thewomen's restroom, you know, and
how that felt so much safer. Andit's just like everything I do
now, though, doesn't feel likeit's about my safety, it feels
like it's about other people'ssafety. I think a really good
example of that, that we werediscussing when we first met was
that, especially when I wasgoing to school, in my
(17:33):
Bachelor's, but definitely by mymasters when I was in a social
work program, and it'spredominantly women. And so as I
was medically transitioning, andI'm careful to talk about that,
because like, if I choose totalk about it, it's one thing
(17:55):
but I do want to remind folkslistening, don't just like ask
me about it, because it's goingto catch me off guard, and I'm
going to shut down. Because it'snot what I want to talk about.
There's so many other uniqueaspects to me, but I will talk
about it now. But when I wasmedically transitioning, and
people started reading me moreas male, or as a man,
(18:16):
it just, I wasn't prepared forthat. And so at night, in
particular, when I would havesome late night classes, you
know, I'd be walking to my caror something. I noticed that
people I perceived to be women,because I don't know, it's an
assumption I'm making. Theywould click clutch their purse
(18:37):
and walk a lot faster away fromme, I didn't realize, Oh, I'm
like this threat now. Like youdon't, I can't like shut out No,
it's okay. I'm a teddy bear.
Like, I'm not gonna steal yourphone or something worse, right.
And so, I can't do that all Ican do is be. And this This
feels gross in certain ways forme, because again, it's, I'm,
(19:00):
I'm not being seen for me, butall I can do is just be like,
another example of them beingsafe, you know, and it feels
like this huge responsibility Ihave. But I also deal with a lot
of anxiety. And so even if I'min like a spin class or
something like that, and usuallythey'll have mirrors. I don't
(19:22):
feel comfortable being behindpeople, again, that I perceive
to be perhaps women, because Idon't want them to think of
staring at their butt, you know,and I'm trying not to, like,
make eye contact with thembecause I don't want to make
them uncomfortable. And I thinkwhat messes with my mind the
most to is that it could easilyfall to the other side of oh, I
(19:44):
don't feel safe. Can you walk meto my car and that has happened
to me before where someone'sasked that. It's like, I don't
feel much safer than you do. I'mnot going to tell you that
because it's gonna make make youuncomfortable probably but I
just I feel like even going tothe men's room, I just I go to
the men's room because, frankly,there aren't a lot of gender
(20:05):
neutral restrooms or familyrestrooms or feel safe or
comfortable to go to. I mean,some of the bigger stores,
bigger chain stores will havethose. And it's great when I can
go into those not worry aboutpeople being like, what are you
doing going in there orsomething, but it just it comes
with a lot. It messes with myhead a lot. I don't feel like
there's a lot of people I cantalk to about it. Because it's
(20:25):
like, part of it's just like,oh, boohoo you've upgraded in
the world how sad for you. Butlike it's a super. It's there's
just like all these mind gamesfor me. And I still haven't
really quite processed it.
Because this just hasn't been myexperience. And I was socialized
to fear the very person that Inow look like, yeah, and I can't
(20:48):
control especially when I'mtaking testosterone, I can't
pick and choose what that lookslike. You know, I sprouted like
a chia pet my legs, my arms arehairy. I couldn't control that.
That wasn't something I waslooking forward to really. And,
you know, I've learned to lovethat about myself. But there's
just something around, I'm stillfiguring out how to just be
(21:10):
authentically me. Not worriedabout how people are perceiving
me, but I do take it seriously.
At the same time, the safetycomponent as far as how I'm
taking up space, and if I'munintentionally making someone
else feel unsafe, that that'snot cool to me. So I do want to
be privy to that and be alert tothat. But I just Yeah, it's like
I'm constantly going againstthis assumption. It just and I
(21:36):
hate it. I hate it. That's astrong word. But I genuinely do.
Because yeah. I don't know why Ijust do I just Yeah, I just
people aren't seeing me for me.
And I don't want to have to wearlike pronoun pins on my shirt
every day saying they thempronouns or constantly have to
(21:57):
say, Oh, actually, I'm nonbinary, which I've been starting
to do and trying to be morecomfortable with that. But it's
really hard, especially beingsomeone who's trying to get out
of people pleasing. So it's justa mess. It's a hot mess. Yeah. I
mean, that's this is the stuffyou got to like, work out in
therapy. Right. So. But I thinkit's also important to be able
(22:18):
to talk about it with otherpeople. Um, but yeah, this has
been my experience so far.
Absolutely think thank you somuch for sharing all that. And,
and you're right, it's somethingthat, you know, theoretically,
we should discuss in therapy.
But I think that there's somuch, there's so much value in
having these conversations withsomeone who gets it, the reality
(22:40):
is that most therapists aregoing to be cisgendered, you
know, and the more the more thatI hear you talk, and just
listening to your story. And,you know, I resonate with a lot
of different aspects of it.
(23:00):
Because, you know, it's, it'sthe same thing for me where it's
like, all of a sudden, I'mexpected to be the tough guy in
some situations, and it's like,I've never been in a fight in my
life with anyone of any gender,like, I'm not going to be able
to protect anyone get out ofhere, you know, right. And, but
(23:20):
but so much of what I'm hearingis, our, our perceptions, when
we go out into the world are solimited, so lazy, really, when
you get down to it, becauseI've, I've also had experiences
where people assume that I'mgay, because of the way that I
(23:43):
talk, or because of a lot of myfriends or cisgendered women, or
because I know a lot about gayculture. And the fact that our
expectations of what a man isand what a man looks like, and
how a man acts in our society isso limited. It is kind of
(24:09):
pathetic. I mean, I watched thisvideo, I wish I remember this
guy's name, but it was a videodone by a trans guy. And he, he
said that our perception ofgender has we learned about
gender when we're like, five,when we're in kindergarten, it's
like, boys are over here, andgirls are over here. And we're
different. And that's that, andthen we don't really explore
(24:29):
that at all ever for the rest ofour lives. Because we, we we
encounter someone and we go intoall these different assumptions
about, oh, maybe you're gay, ormaybe you're this nuclear that
we're not even thinking aboutthe spectrum of gender. We're
still thinking in this binaryway. And there's just the box
(24:55):
that men are in is so tiny, andthen the idea that anyone can
even exist Just outside ofeither the box of what it means
to be a man or the box of beinga man at all, in your case, just
doesn't even enter people'sminds. And, you know, and I, and
I think that, I think that, youknow, it, it's like your, your,
(25:19):
that that's what makes it sotricky because you're, I think
you're on the right track.
Prioritizing other people'ssafety, but it's also bad is
another binary way of thinking,I'm so frustrated by how often
the way that we view things inour society is so binary. And I
attribute a lot of that toChristianity, really, because I
(25:43):
think Christianity as a beliefsystem is very binary. And it's
baked into a lot of the way thatwe think. And, you know, it's
like, you're either you'reeither the threat or you're
being threatened, like, there'sno, there's no in between where
it's like, Hey, we're all kindof feeling uncomfortable here,
like let's talk about, or let'screate spaces for everybody to
(26:06):
be able to talk about it,because it's not always going to
be appropriate for everybody ofall identities and all
backgrounds to come together andtalk about these things. Right.
But it's, it's so weird. And itall comes back to toxic
masculinity. It's, it's man, youtouched on a lot of interesting
stuff, just with sharing yourstory. So I really appreciate
(26:27):
that.
Yeah. And I think an interestingway that I can talk about it
just to take it a little bitfurther as let's talk about the
restrooms. When I would go tothe women's restroom, I felt a
lot safer. But the problem wasis that has my features became
(26:48):
what we would call moremasculine. there started to be a
point where it wasn't safe forme to go anymore. Because I
started getting dagger eyes arepeople saying you're in the
wrong restroom or doing thedouble take? Making sure they
were in the right restroom? Imean, there's the whole gamut.
Yeah. And you know, I It's weirdbecause it, it's not like I have
(27:12):
a card that says I belong hereor something, you know, but
there was this very distinctmoment where I knew it wasn't
safe to do that anymore. But Ihad no idea what the men's room
was like. So that was scary tome. To this day. just fast
forward as a spoiler alert. Istill plan my days around the
restroom. In terms of like,yeah, where I'm going to go
where it's going to be safe.
Asleep. It Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
(27:39):
That I'll leave it at that.
Yeah. And that's another waythat I missed the women's
restroom. It's been a lotcleaner in my experience. But
yeah, I, I feel like I have tolike bloodshot up. I feel like
I've got to puff up. I've got aI've got to do that. And because
I very quickly learned no onetaught me this directly. I just
(27:59):
figured it out by going into therestroom. I figured out very
quickly, you don't look at eachother. You don't talk to each
other. You don't pee next toeach other. Even if you're in a
stall, and you're like addedtoilet paper or something. I
don't know what to tell you.
Like, you still don't talk topeople. Whereas in the women's
(28:21):
restroom again, my experiencewas that, you know, oh, hey,
your shirt tags sticking out. Igot you let me help you out. Or,
you know, oh, hey, I need a fewsheets of toilet paper, which,
obviously, you need, like morethan few sheets, but Right. Like
you'd ask for that. And it'd befine. I mean, shoot, some people
would have like the Mary Poppinsbag and be like, are you
(28:43):
lighter, heavy? I got you ifyou're on your period. But you
know, it was just it was it wasso much better. But again, that
was when I was being read atleast anywhere near as a woman.
But the tricky part is, is it'sjust it's always been a little
bit tough for me, because theclosest language I had when I
was growing up was tomboy. Yeah,that was that was all I had,
(29:06):
because we weren't teachingabout gender and sexuality
really in schools other thanthat very binary thinking that
you were talking about. And sothat was the closest language I
had. So I latched on to it. Butwhat what was interesting is
that when I was younger, and Imean like elementary school, it
was praised that I was a tomboy.
It was cool. It was like I wasstraddling both worlds of, you
know, man and woman. Becauseagain, limited thinking limited,
(29:30):
you know, language and all ofthat. But especially as I got to
like middle school, it wasn'tpraised anymore. It was actually
seen as a very negative thingbecause I wasn't being lazy
like, Yeah, and so, honestly,it's like, I just don't get a
break because the gender policeare always going to come at me.
(29:51):
Whether it's sis people, transpeople. I mean, I've heard all
sorts of things in my life. I'vehad therapists tell me that I
wasn't really, at one point whenI was identifying as
genderqueer. I had a therapisttold me who was a trans woman,
by the way, that it wasn'treally gender queer. I was
hiding behind that identitybecause I wanted a harder life.
(30:12):
And that messed me up so bad. Iremember cuz I was riding a
motorcycle, those those days, ittook me like 10 minutes to calm
down enough to be able to ridemy bike home. And I never saw
her again. But that's when Irealized that was one of those
shifts, right. And for me, thiswas around like, 2008 or so that
was one of those shifts where Iwas like, wow,
(30:39):
our community doesn't always getalong. archaeon community, the
larger LGBTQ plus community canbe gatekeeping as well. And so
like, you know, friends evenwould fight with me like, well,
you can be gender queer again,when I first came out as gender
queer background, Lync 2007 Orso they were like, oh, you know,
(31:00):
you can be gender queer, but Idon't feel comfortable with you
exploring medical transition.
You know, I don't, I don't feelcomfortable with the idea of you
getting surgeries and stuff. Andit's like, well, it's not for
you to agree on. I'm asking foryour support. I'm asking you to
say like, cool, I love you. I'mhere for you. What can I do to
support you? You know, I'm notasking for validation. And so
(31:20):
that was really hard. And, youknow, I've lost a lot of friends
too, because one of the otheridentities I carried for a while
because, quote, unquote, friendsbullied me into it was, I did
identify as a butch lesbian fora period of time. But it didn't
resonate. I knew it didn'tresonate. But there was so much
by phobia, that when I wascoming out there, just like,
(31:47):
that's, that's not possible. Youjust switch lesbian get over it.
And so I just, I feel like Ijust don't make anyone happy.
Because then even if I say,Okay, well today, today, the
language that resonates the mostis, like I mentioned earlier,
queer, trans and non binary,they're like, Yeah, but you have
a beard. Or and she's supposedto be like androgynous? And it's
like, no, like, no that, like, Ican express that however I like.
(32:10):
Yeah. I don't know if I want tobe like, take after like, Mr.
Potato Head or something. Justchange it up. Like, just let me
do that. Let me be happy. That'swhat I wanted to I don't know.
So yeah, I mean, back to whatyou were talking about as a
Christianity like, what is it? Imean, I think there's a lot of
institutions, we could sit thereand point at and name and at the
(32:32):
end of the day, I'm just tryingto live my life, I don't want to
have to be hyper vigilant andwonder and worry if I'm making
people of particular gendersuncomfortable with my presence.
I don't want to worry if I'mglitch enough to survive an
interaction with people. I mean,heck, you know, and this is
really hard to say. Butsometimes I've struggled with
(32:55):
wondering if I'm karma of mydad's choices he had made in his
life, because especially beforeI came out to him, and this was
around high school time now forme, I remember hearing about
how, like, sometimes gay menwould hit on him or something.
And I don't know all thespecifics. I just know that if
(33:15):
he felt they weren't leaving himalone, when he said no, and I'm
just going off of what he sharedwith me. If they didn't end
there, he would go and beat themup. And, and the other part that
was hard to hear too, was fromanother person. My mom who I
(33:36):
don't speak to anymore, but shehad told me that he had also had
trans panic on someone beforehe'd never shared that story
with me. So to hear that from mymom was horrifying. And yeah,
it's a lot to process. And soyeah, apparently he was on a
date with a woman didn't knowthat she was trans. So he
(33:58):
freaked out, beat her up andleft. And I'm just like, wow, so
I'm his kid. And I'm supposed tocome out to him. Right? Like, I
kept thinking that I'm in andagain, at the point of hearing
that story about the trans panicdefense, which isn't a thing.
You can't be violent withsomeone in that way. It just
(34:20):
Yeah, I don't know. It's just alot, a lot to process. And I
just feel like there's a lotthere, because I'm ashamed. And
toxic masculinity just feels sogross to me. And so anytime I'm
associated with that, that'shard. And again, I just all I
(34:42):
can do is just, even though it'snot my gender, just be another
example of not being that jerk.
You know, and I mean, I've donethose rideshare things before
where I was the driver, and I'dhave you know, a few guys drunk
My car sang Oh, I can't believeyou like that song that's so gay
(35:03):
and did whatever to each other.
I know that it would be expectedof me to check them on that, but
they're drunk, there's three ofthem. I've got to feel safe to.
So yeah, that's just like thisawkward dance I'm trying to do
for the rest of my lifebasically, is just figure out.
(35:25):
What do I do with all of this?
Yeah, and, and I would argue inin those kinds of situations, it
should not be the expectationthat you that you educate them,
because you're right, you don'tknow what they're going to do.
This isn't, you know, this isn'teducation corner, this is I'm
(35:47):
doing my job, and I got to gethome safely. But I think that
that's, that's so interesting,you hit on a couple of really
interesting things, you know,talking about your dad, and I
appreciate you sharing that thathistory. You know, I have just
had a camera view here, I havesome pictures, old pictures of
(36:10):
family members, including mygrandfather. And the reality is
that I really don't know how mygrandfather would have taken me,
you know, he died when I wasabout one year old. So we never
had the chance to develop arelationship. But I know that he
(36:31):
was a World War Two that I knowhe's from that generation. I
know that. I don't know if hehad anger problems, but I know
he kind of emotionally abusedhis kids, I know that he stopped
having a relationship with mymom for a while when she chose
to marry a black man, aka mydad. And he, they came back
(36:52):
around when she got pregnantwith my older brother. But and
it sounds like they did have agood relationship up until the
end there. But I really don'tknow how he would have reacted
to my sexuality, which developedinto my gender identity. But at
the same time, I can recognizethat his his reactions to things
(37:18):
in the way that he acted. It,it's such a fine line, you know,
excusing that behavior. And not,of course, you know, something
like that happening today wouldbe considered inexcusable. But
the idea that this man wouldhave had access to the
(37:38):
information and experiencerequired to know better, is not
really fair for me to expect ofthis man who was born in 1922,
and died in 1993, as a whiteman, World War Two that you know
what I mean. And, you know,there was no Internet, there was
no being able to meet peoplefrom other cultures, there was
(38:02):
no going to therapy, like, therewasn't any of that. And I think,
you know, that. So that's kindof something that I try to think
about, in my experience, to kindof like, wrap my brain around
all that, and I keep thispicture of still, because I do
think that it's important for meto remember that that history is
(38:22):
in my blood is in my veins,because the reality is that, you
know, none of us are too farremoved from other people,
something that one human iscapable of, we're all capable
of, and I, I like having thatreminder of, like, I need to
continue to surround myself,around people with whom I can I
can learn from, and, you know,to constantly move that needle
(38:48):
towards progress in our society,because it's, I could just as
easily slip back into those oldways of thinking. But also with
with the, you know, with thepolicing that came from both as
a kid when you came out as biand your friends are like, No,
you're a butch lesbian. Andpeople even, you know, trying to
(39:11):
police your gender identity.
Now, as a non binary person, Ifeel like that's kind of the
same, the same thing, we have alot more access to knowing
better now. And the, the amountthat this is acceptable is going
down, but I can see how muchthings have even changed just
from like, when we were kids,you know, like I being trans is
(39:31):
so much more in the lexicon nowthan it was even 15 years ago
when I was in middle school.
And, you know, who knows if Iwould have ever had that I'm a
lesbian phase if I was in middleschool today, versus back then.
But I think that one thing thatI try to remind myself and I
(39:53):
hope it's something that thelisteners think about if they
have ever found themselvesassuming that a non binary
person has dislike androgynouslook or feel to them is
when we start to think in thatterm, it's still very binary, it
by design, you know, it'stechnically not because it's
(40:14):
more than two but you'rebasically just assuming a fully
fledged out third genderthere's, there is man, there is
woman and there is non binary,which is an exact right in the
middle and it's like it. It's,it's, it's better than thinking
that there's only man andthere's only woman in the room
(40:34):
we just live in these binaries,but it's still, it's still not
it's still missing the mark andit's really not understanding
the spirit behind, you know,breaking down the gender binary
it's not just about oh, Iidentify with a little bit of
both or neither. It's it. Youknow what I mean,
(40:57):
this. And I mean, for somepeople that is their experience.
I mean, certainly, one I used tospeak on PFLAG panels and things
like that. I even oddly enough,I used to have a column in
lesbian news magazine that wascalled Life as a spork. So when
I was identifying asgenderqueer, for me, my
(41:18):
definition of that meant that Iwas tapping into those energies,
but to various degrees. And so Iwould tell people, imagine a
spork. Right. And that was mywhole thing. And I literally and
I still have them to this day,for nostalgia purposes. I had
this titanium spork, I had it inmy pocket ready to go? Right
(41:41):
when I was about to say thatline, and just whip it out of my
pocket. And like, you know, itwas the whole thing. And it was
a branding. And there was apoint where that didn't feel
right anymore. And so that's,that's the thing is, when people
want to create the argument ofWell, well, if we teach it in
the schools, then it's justgoing to be rampant. And it's
(42:04):
like, no, because you've beentrying to shove straight down my
throat and sis down my throat.
And that hasn't been working.
It's not how I identify at allthere. And there's been ample
examples of that everywhere.
Right? Even even today. So knowthat that's, that's not it. But
what it would have done if wewere better about teaching it in
(42:26):
our schools, especially when itcomes to sex ed being fact
based, inclusive, and that'sstill not across the board the
United States. There's very fewstates where that's even a
thing. And even then it's up tothat teacher to get it right.
Yeah. So that being said, if Ijust had had the language
sooner, if people allowed me tojust like, mess around and find
out and figure out what mygender was, and my sexuality, it
(42:48):
would have saved me so muchgrief, but it did feel like this
private thing. It did feel likesomething that I was doing that
was wrong, because that was thereaction. So you know, you talk
about this, like transnarrative, sometimes this arc
that exists of, you know, okay,well, here are the toys I played
with. And okay, I was bullied inthis and that. I mean, a lot of
(43:10):
my story does fit that. But itcould have been so different.
And yeah, I think what'sinteresting, too, is I have this
I have roughly the same storywith my grandfather, he passed
away a month after I turned one.
He was in the Korean War. Andhe's also one of my first
(43:32):
memories, which is reallytrippy. I don't know if we'll
have time for that today. Butactually, I will talk about it
because I think it's important.
Yeah, I, I didn't idolize him,but I look to Him for safety. So
I would describe myself as aspiritual person. And I think my
first example of that was him.
Because there was somethingabout like, I'll just, I'll just
(43:55):
say, because this isn't like thetrauma vomit podcast, I'll just
say like, I didn't have the bestchildhood, and all of the kinds
of different abuse you couldimagine were going on in my
home. And I was shamed into, youknow, the motto of the family
was what happens in this housestays in this house. So I didn't
dare say anything to anyone. Andso, but one of my earliest
(44:17):
memories was, you know,sometimes, like, when you're
laying in bed at night, andmaybe if you have your ear to
the pillow in such a way youlike, hear your own heartbeat.
Yeah, I didn't know what thatwas when I was super young. I
internalize that to be Oh, mygrandfather's will taking steps
toward me, and he's gonnaprotect me right now. Anytime
(44:39):
that happened. I thought of him.
And it took years and years andyears to figure out later that I
would finally hear more storiesabout him and what he was like,
and so two things that stood outto me were number one, he was
always holding me so no wonder Iassociate him with a heartbeat.
Yeah, I probably heard hisheartbeat when I was Yeah. When
I was at Biddy, and number two,I just feel like, I wonder
(45:04):
there's this fantasy I have, youknow, sometimes I can get stuck
in the past of what would mylife have been like if he had
been around a little bit longer?
Because my mom used to tell methat, had he been around, a lot
of those things that werehappening to me in my youth
(45:26):
wouldn't have happened becausehe wouldn't have let that fly.
And so when you when you talkedabout wondering, like, what he
would think of you today, Iwonder the same thing about my
grandpa? Because I just don'tknow. And why do I need that
approval? I don't know. Because,I mean, I've got one blood
related family member left thattalks to me, because my dad and
(45:48):
grandma have both passed away.
And those are the people I grewup with. And so I didn't get
their unconditional love untilthe very end, they literally had
to both be on their respectivedeathbeds for that to happen.
Yeah. And so I just wonder, didanyone love me unconditionally?
You know, and so, yeah,sometimes it's just nice to
(46:10):
fantasize and think that yeah,things could have been
different. But that wasn't it.
And I guess the only other thingI want to say to that too, just
in case anyone else relates tothis. Another misconception that
I grew up thinking was that, oh,if you were sexually abused, and
all this, and you're going to begay. And so because that
(46:31):
happened to me, it took me along time to sit through the
sexuality stuff, to sit throughthe gender stuff. And I didn't
have anyone else to tell meotherwise. But I had to make
peace with there was a littlebit of overlap there in terms of
needing to figure out my bodyand being safe with people, and
(46:52):
that they weren't related. Butthey did cause some of the same
experiences of me experiencingdysphoria, or wanting to be out
of my body, or being ashamed ofmy body. And so reconciling that
by myself, was incrediblydifficult. But yeah, that, that
(47:14):
experience those, those sexualexperiences that happened to me
that I had no control over. Inmy youth, were not what caused
me to be who I am today, youknow, that has nothing to do
with my sexuality has nothing todo with my gender. And yeah, I
just I think that was just likean added layer that I had to
(47:35):
work through to find andunderstand that separation.
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank youfor sharing all that. And I
think that that is such apowerful point, I think that,
you know, inner intersectingexperiences can lead to a lot to
unpack. And I think that that iskind of the the unspoken
(48:02):
Brightside are a positive aspectto to not living tend to not
being cisgender is that we dohave a little bit more of a
requirement to really explorewho we are and what all that
means, and to have theopportunity to unpack and
separate what happened to you asa child and how you identify
(48:24):
today. I think that that's,that's really powerful. And I
appreciate you sharing yourexperience with that. Man, I
appreciate you sharing what youhad to say about your
grandfather too, because i ialso have, you know, spirit,
feelings, like I'm spirituallyconnected to this man. And some
(48:45):
of it might just be a fantasy oflike, hoping that this guy would
be, you know, better than hisgeneration or that I could, you
know, if he was around, and heloves me that I could have
changed his mind. Or maybe thereis some connection to something.
I mean, he is, you know, thesepeople, they, you know, DNA gets
(49:06):
passed down trauma gets passeddown your DNA, I mean, pieces of
what they experience, not justeye color and hair type, the
actual pieces of their soul dolive in us. And so I think they
were tapping into something realthere. At least I like to think
that that's the case.
Absolutely. So that went by soquickly. Oh, my gosh, we'll
(49:28):
definitely have to do some morelater. We'd love to have you
back on at some point. Before wewrap up, is there anything else
that you feel like you'd beremiss if you if you left it
out?
I don't think so. I think otherthan I mean, these are parts of
(49:50):
my story. I don't talk about alot. It's not because I'm
ashamed of them. I just want tobe mindful too, because
naturally this kind of stuff,especially in this day, He needs
content and trigger warnings,right? Plenty of them throughout
this episode. But yeah, I guess,you know, I made fun of, you
know, a little bit of traumavomit, but I guess I just I feel
(50:11):
compelled to share my storybecause I know that sometimes
people need to hear these kindsof things, because maybe it's
something that they can relateto, or something that they've
experienced. And maybe they canget some healing or from it, you
know, even if it's a little bitor just knowing that they're not
alone, because I think that canmake a huge difference as well.
(50:33):
So it's, you know, I'm doing thework to work through all of
these things. And certainly,they'll absolutely impact me for
the rest of my life. Becauseevery time I feel like I've done
some sort of deep work andresolved something, I'm like,
Oh, nope, there's more trauma,there's to work through. It's
not over, it's just taking adifferent form. But I don't
(50:54):
know, I just, I guess my hope isthat, you know, I'm not looking
for sympathy, I'm not lookingfor like I've had life so
hardships or something, it'smore just that I just hope
someone else can feel a littleless alone. And I feel empowered
now sharing this, these parts ofmy story, because I just don't
want to feel guilt or shamearound them. I don't want them
(51:14):
to have that power over me. AndI think it can take a long time
to get to that point if someonechooses to do that kind of work.
So I'm just proud that I cantalk about it now. And I guess
the only other thing I wouldwant to say is, I appreciate you
allowing me to have thisconversation with you and
creating a safer space so that Icould go there. So thank you for
that.
Yeah, thank you, thank you somuch for sharing, thank you for
(51:36):
trusting me and and this podcastto be a place where you can
share and I, I really appreciateeverything that you've said
about, you know, this being youknow, you are choosing to share
this here, this isn't aninvitation to like, you know,
come at you at your work or DMyou and just start having a
(51:58):
whole conversation about this,you know, and that's really,
that is really what I'm tryingto do this season is just
allowing people to be kind of afly on the wall for
conversations that they're notusually privy to. So I really, I
appreciate you going there withme. Now, I'm going to tell my
listeners now promise thatyou're not going to ask anything
(52:22):
inappropriate. But where canwhere can people find you? And
what what, if anything, wouldyou like to promote?
Absolutely. So if you'reinterested in pursuing LGBTQ
plus ally ship and getting sometips and listening to people's
experiences around that, pleasego to allyship is a verb.com.
(52:45):
And that's where you can findall of the links and full
episode transcriptions andresources. And if you want to
follow me on Instagram, and myawkward adventure there and
whatever I post lots ofinformational stuff about the
LGBTQ plus community, but alsopart of my story as well. You
can find me on Instagram atgender sexuality info.
(53:09):
Awesome. Criss Angel, thank youagain for coming on. I am very
grateful to know you. I think Imean, she's the two
conversations that got so deep.
I mean, this is very clearly thestart of a wonderful friendship,
I think and I look forward tothe next time we get to chat.
Likewise. Thank you so much,Leo. Appreciate it.
(53:34):
Once again, that was Criss AngelMurphy. Criss Angel, thank you
so much for coming on the show.
Thank you so much for yourvulnerability. Thank you so much
for being my new friend, isreally refreshing to be able to
have conversations with peoplewho have been there, you know,
and that that is honestly a hopethat I have for a lot of my
(53:56):
listeners is you know, whateveryour unique life path is they
you have a group or friends or asupport system, whatever the
case may be, that share thatexperience. We can all be allies
and meet each other withcompassion. But it's a whole
different thing entirely whenyou when you can talk to someone
(54:17):
who's been there. Speaking ofwhich, shout out to anybody
who's listening to this thatfound me on Tik Tok. I'm having
a lot of fun on Tik Tok. Ifyou're on Tik Tok, and you're
not following me yet, pleaseconsider following me. I had one
video that ended up getting alot of views. And now all of a
sudden, my follower list is abunch of LGBTQ youth and I use
(54:38):
the term youth a little bitbroadly. It's like people under
25, right? Because when ourbrain stopped developing at 25,
and I know in my life, there's abig difference between you know,
pre 25 and post 25. And it'sjust it's really cool to be able
to be Are the representationthat we didn't have when I was a
(55:01):
youth. Thank you again forlistening and for being on this
journey with me. If you likedwhat you heard, please consider
giving us a five star ratingreview. Wherever you're
listening to this podcast. Takea screenshot make your Instagram
story, tag me at Leo Yockey lEOYOCKEY. Let your friends know
that you're listening. I will beback in two weeks with my very
(55:27):
dear friend Stephanie. Really,really excited for y'all to hear
that one. Until then, stay safeout there. It's Scorpio season.
The days are getting shorter.
The holidays are approaching.
Now I better get going. I've gota lot of stuff coming up in my
world. I'll share about some ofit in future episodes. But until
(55:49):
then, stay evolving.
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