September 21, 2021 • 54 mins
Leo mentions Lil Nas X, which sends him and guest Alli Santos into a long conversation about representation in media. They discuss the evolving role of personal identity in our society, the fallacy of binary thinking, and the importance of representation in media.
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By: Leo Yockey
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:14):
Hello, and welcome to anotherepisode of the Leo Yockey show
the show where I Leo Yockeyinterview guests about the
universal truths in their uniquelife paths. All right, I got to
make this quick because there'sa whole bunch of construction
going on next door like allweek. But before we dive into
the interview, I want to share alittle bit about how I know this
(00:36):
week's guest. Ali Santos, do youever think about how so many
different things had to alignjust right, for a certain person
or situation to come into yourlife. This is kind of how Ali
and I met. So back in early2018, I had just moved to West
(00:57):
LA and started my first job as asoftware engineer. And I had a
friend that lived really closeto me, l hopefully another
future guest to the show. So land I were hanging out in a bar
in our neighborhood. And shetold me that she thought that I
would get along really well withher friend, Ali. So l arranged
(01:19):
for us to all meet at that samebar, like a week later. When
that day arrives, I get a textfrom owl while I'm at work,
saying, Hey, I'm sorry,something came up. I'm not going
to be able to make it tonight.
However, I think you and Alliewould get along. I still think
that you too, should meet. Andat first, you know, my
(01:40):
introverted ass was like,absolutely not no way that I
thought about it for a while.
And I realized, you know, I'dhad a stressful day at work. I
could use some socialinteraction. Fine. I'm going to
do it. So Ali and I and Ali'sroommate we all meet and we had
a great time. And now Honestly,I think I think I ended up
(02:04):
seeing Ali more than I saw lwhile we all lived in that
neighborhood. So thank you l forbringing us together. And this
conversation, this interview.
It's really not an interview,this one really is a
conversation. Y'all are reallygoing to get to be a fly on the
wall for the kind ofconversations that Allie and I
honestly, anytime we talk thisis these are the kinds of things
(02:26):
that we talk about, you know, weare both people of color in the
LGBTQ community who work intech, but have creative passions
have and I think ourconversation reflects a lot of
that. So without further ado,here's Allie.
(02:59):
Oh, wait, Allie, when is yourbirthday? I keep forgetting. I
know you're a Leo. So it'seither. It's like now ish. I
feel like right.
Ah, close. I'm on the cusp. Sothe 20th of this month.
Okay. Okay, cool. So it'll,it'll probably be belated by the
time this comes out. Anyway,hello, Ollie. How are you doing
(03:24):
today?
What's up Leo? From Leo toanother?
Right. I'm like, not even. I Myname is Leo. But I'm actually
astrologically the opposite. I'man Aquarius. I know. I know.
It's so I like to think that itmakes me a very well rounded
(03:44):
individual.
Okay, I believe in that. I do. Itruly believe that we should all
be you know, reaching for andbalancing out and, you know,
we're going on some kind ofequilibrium.
Yeah, absolutely. So I'll takethat.
I'll take that Aquarian Leo.
Yes. Hey,yo, Cray. I know that's, that's
what I should. If I was like, ifI were to become a rapper or
(04:07):
something, maybe that oh my god,yeah.
What a time you think that namewould fly?
Aquarian Leo? Yeah, why not? Whocares? That's right. There's
like rappers named like lil uzivert, like who who cares what is
(04:28):
lil NAS x even mean? Like, ofcourse, I could be Aquarian
Leah.
She that also blessed little NASx. Okay. Series really just
wanted to do what I want. AndI'm gonna do it my way.
is actually the perfect segueinto this because, Allie, the
reason why I want to have you onthis show is because I feel like
(04:51):
I talk a lot about how the worldis changing. And there's just
opportunities available thatweren't before and we're in this
like revolution. slashRenaissance period. And it's
time to just live the life thatyou want. And I think that out
of all my friends, I think youresonate with that the most and
(05:12):
the, the existence of someonelike lil NAS x is absolutely an
example of that like this, youknow, very openly gay man would
not have been able to do whathe's doing, like having some man
lick his face on SNL performanceand stuff like that, like, yeah,
you know, and the once a call,call me by the devil, exactly.
(05:36):
Like none of this would havebeen possible before at a time.
Yes. You know, he's gettinglike, what 100 million streams
on his songs or something likethat. Like, if here's
what's cool about that, righthere he is, is one part. But the
other part is he's thriving.
Yes, that is, I think thedifference why this time in
place matters.
(05:57):
Exactly. Because back Back inthe day, someone like little NAS
x wouldn't have been able tohave access to the resources
avail needed to reach this levelof stardom. And now, you know,
you can essentially, I mean, Iwas talking about before we
started this, you know,recording this podcast recording
(06:19):
this interview in the past, itwould have required a sound
engineer on site, and we wouldhave had to be in persons who
would have needed to book somespace. And we would have, you
know, and for the video, wewould have needed camera, people
in good lighting, and goodacoustics and all these things.
And all that is wrapped up in,we both just open up our laptops
(06:41):
and open a zoom meeting and andit's all taken care of for us
and we can put this out on theinternet, we don't have to pay
for copies of it to be printedin any way for people to be able
to listen to at home, you know,so there's just all these
different ways that the barriershave just come down like all
these, I mean, they're notarbitrary music gatekeeping
(07:02):
they're real, you know,infrastructural art, obstacles
that are just not there anymore.
And so that means, you know,people like us people who are
not just white cisgender middleclass, mostly men, you know,
like we have we have avenues todo what we want to do, you know,
(07:25):
I was gonna see how much furtheryou went into that list.
Christian leaning, right.
Like, how specific of themajority do do we want to get
into? And how much of that do wereally divert from it? Right?
Yeah, seriously, I was readingabout this author that died. I
(07:48):
think his name, his name is likeAnthony so. And he had this
artist description where he hedescribed himself as a gay
immigrant, Cambodian American,diagnosed with manic depressive
disorder. And I was like, I waslike, Yeah, I relate to this. I
mean, not, not manic depressive,and not gay, and not Cambodian,
(08:13):
American. So what do I relate toI relate to just having that
many things that you can list,you know, like, I, again, it's
like, the fact that we can evenbe out here, you know, people,
you know, we talk a lot aboutrepresentation. And there's been
a decent amount of blackrepresentation. But when you get
(08:34):
we get to drill down into thespecifics of the diaspora, like,
most people have never evenheard of the country that my dad
is from Tanzania, you know, andso, I don't know, it's just,
it's cool. We're able to putourselves out on the map in a
way that just was not possiblebefore. I
know for sure, and even in thedescription of the author, I
mean, rip that said, news thatpassed. But how often do you
(08:57):
hear someone just talk aboutCambodian? Right, or, or any,
anything more specific, youknow, in regards to Asian
representation, which I think isstill, I mean, that's still what
happens, right? People will justclump it in, it's just like
Asians, right, but then you wantto get into that, and there's
like, a whole bunch of other,you know, countries and races
(09:21):
within Asia, right. And then Ithink what gets seen most of the
time, or what people are used tois right, East Asian
representation, right? And thenmore recent, you know, at least
I feel that it's like SoutheastAsians are getting you know,
more recognition and there'stalks about that. And you know,
people getting real specific andif you really want to get into
(09:45):
it, you can deep dive at anytime because you know, the
internet loves to just talk andeveryone get has an opinion
about things and I have a lot ofmixed emotions when I get into
this kind of stuff because it'slike When we're talking about,
you know, technology, right? Andalso being in tech, right, I
(10:06):
like, I love tech, but thenthere's also, you know,
everything has its dark sides.
Yeah, say, right. And even withthis thing of like the filter,
and having lower barriers, Ithink it's great that we have
that option, right? Like,literally anyone who has
internet access and has accessto a device of some sort, right?
(10:28):
Whether that's like a mobilephone, or a, you know, a camera,
log your webcam, like whatever,right? Like that is the age that
we're living in, that people canuse anything. And this is where
content really is, like, themost important part, right? It's
not about the quality of things,it's about what are you putting
(10:49):
out? Right, it's the quality ofwhat is being put out in ways.
So it's like, I think it's agreat time because, you know,
510, whatever years, whatever, Xamount of years before this,
right, whatever, whatever youwant to place, right? It, you
know, is definitely a muchharder thing to do. But because
technology continues to expandexponentially, right, like, the
(11:14):
ease of things has alsoexponentially gotten easy.
You're in So yeah, I mean, it's,it's what a time, what a time
that we're living in and, andeven with, like who we are as
people. That's true. We, youwould not see or hear our
(11:34):
voices, or see us, you know, ifyou're see this clip on video
somewhere, like, you wouldn'thear or see, like, you know,
these voices together on anymajor type of production, right,
it was just a totally differenttime. It's also the access,
right? And I'm sure there'sstill things like that are going
(12:00):
on in Hollywood, right, like allthe stuff about casting and all
of you know, there just wouldn'tbe roles or anything for us.
Yeah, and that's just the waybecause the stories that were
written, were not being writtenby us either. You know, and so
it's like, all the things thatyou also listed before that,
(12:21):
right? sexual orientation,gender identity, you know,
presentation, religion,whatever, right? these are,
these are all things that we useto like, divide ourselves, but
at the same time, we, we use itto also identify with and find
community. So that's why, youknow, I feel like everything is
(12:42):
just relative, and we go backand forth. It's all just like,
how you utilize, you know,whatever that thing is.
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And itis interesting how, you know, at
the end of the day, all of thesethings that we use to identify
ourselves, they're all manmadeconstructs, you know, race is a
(13:06):
man made construct, gender is aman made construct. You know,
the borders that we use todivide countries are obviously
man made constructs. And I'vebeen thinking about this a lot,
too, it's like, there, we usethese identities as a way to
(13:28):
find community to find simple,universal language to be able to
reach out to people who havebackgrounds in similarities to
us, but it's, it also has thecapacity to create this, like
ego driven, like us versus themmentality, that becomes really
(13:51):
destructive. So identity, kindof has the ability to people's
constructive and destructive,just kind of depending on how
you use it, you know?
Yes, and I think it is, all ofthis ties back to human nature.
Right? Yeah. Um, because if wewere really to be objective
(14:13):
about things, right, if youdidn't feel one way or another,
like these things would justexist, right. But it's what we
do with those things. type ofdeal. So it's like, I mean,
that's why I think like, whenpeople ask if like, something is
good, or something is bad, Imean, who is who who's to say,
right? Yeah, what is good andbad, and also good and bad is
(14:35):
going to vary so much, based onwho you're talking to. Right?
Like, I know, this is extreme,but, you know, this is something
we all went through literally,the whole world did, right? So
COVID is, is you know, it'shappening, right? And then
people are gonna have all kindsof feelings about it, I'm sure
and I'm sure those feelingsstill exist, because you know,
(14:57):
we're still going through it,y'all but that in So this whole
nother thing, right? But why isit during this time that some
people really loved it reallyenjoyed it and were thriving.
Right? But then other peopleprobably hit like rock bottom,
and it was the worst times oftheir life. And, you know, so
it's just like, technically anobjective thing here is a
(15:19):
pandemic happened, you know?
Yeah. And then based on who youask about what it was, or how
was it? Or what do you think onit, you're gonna get, however
many answers based on how manypeople you asked, you know, and
I feel that you could do thesame with anything. And so with
identity and like how peoplefeel about themselves, or
identity or identities, youknow, that is going to vary from
(15:42):
person to person. And it's thesame thing of like, I think it's
great, the where we're headed ofyou can't just assume something
about anyone. Yeah. I mean,people will write. And, and
that's, but that also is justwhat happens, right? But, you
know, we're in a place wherepeople are asking pronouns,
people are asking about, youknow, how they identify more.
(16:02):
So, you know, I'm not gonna saythat this is I'd say, this is
standard practice, by any means,you know, but the fact that more
conversations like this arehappening, is a sign of
progress. And, you know, for me,I think that's really cool.
Because it's like, we're gettingcloser to a place where you
can't just assume somethingabout someone based on looks
(16:23):
alone. Yeah. And if you want to,you know, and then people want
to, like, complain and say,like, Oh, my God, like, this is
so much work, or like, oh, like,what is this? And like, people
are being so sensitive, or, youknow, insert whatever thought or
feeling about it, right? Yeah.
But it's like, this idea,though, is not new by any means.
(16:46):
Right? How many people haveheard never, you know, judge a
book by its cover that is old ashell? Yeah. But that's
essentially the same principlehere. Right? Because what is
happening when you see someone,if you were to look at either of
us, how can you How could youpossibly know, any of those
things that we just mentioned?
How could you know, how weidentify how could you know,
what our pronouns are? How couldyou How can you do any of this,
(17:08):
you know, everything is justpresumptions.
Yeah, and I love that. And it'sso it's so true, it's like, and
that's why it's so great that wehave the ability to kind of own
our platforms and talk about it.
Because Yeah, it's like, youcan't guess by looking at most
people what their experiencesare. And it's so easy to judge a
(17:32):
book by its cover. And part ofthat is because I think we've
been given such a smallsampling, before in media
representations, stuff likethat, of what the human
experience actually is, that wedon't, it's limited our
creativity and how open ourminds can be, you know, like,
(17:52):
what we're humans can be andwhat we do and what we want and
who we are. But I like, youknow, your example, about COVID,
I think it's so interesting,because as you're talking about,
you know, like, people can kindof see it as a good or a bad
thing, kind of just depending onwho you ask, I started like,
thinking in my head about peoplethat I know, that would say that
(18:16):
it was either a good or a badtime, you know, like, I have
people who got into dream jobsthat were kind of as a result of
COVID. And I have other peoplewho, you know, know, people that
they were really close to whodied. And so this was obviously
a very difficult time for themand kind of everything in
between. And there's people who,you know, kind of reassess their
values and other people who, youknow, kind of live their life as
(18:41):
if there was no COVID andcontinue to go out and travel
and refuse to wear mat, youknow, there's all these
different things. And thereality is that COVID-19
circulated through the world,and all of our lives were
affected, and how peopleresponded to it has everything
to do with their life, and thecombination of who they are in
(19:04):
their past leading up to thispoint, as well as the things
that they experienced as aresult of COVID because the
person who was a, you know,essential worker and still had
to work all the way through, hada very different experience than
someone who, you know, got towork from home, even if all of
their life leading up to thatpoint was exactly the same. And
(19:25):
I think that that same conceptscan be applied to everything in
the world, you know, race, theconcept of race, and what has
happened in our world because ofrace is a thing that has
happened that has circulated theworld and has affected
everybody, and how you feelabout it, and whether you think
(19:46):
it's a good or a bad thing andwhether you think the changes in
the tides turning are is a goodor a bad thing. And how much do
you think it even exists?
Because there's people who thinkthat COVID is a hoax. There's
people that think that theHolocaust never happened or
that's Slavery wasn't a badthing or didn't happen, or
whatever the case may be, like,there's people who think these
things. And even to have thatopinion, it has to do with who
(20:10):
you are as a person. And so Ithink it's, it, it's really
interesting kind of applyingthis very objective thing, to,
like COVID, you know, objectivemeaning, like the disease itself
is just, it's just a thing thathappened. And to kind of take it
to something that we take sopersonally like race, because no
matter what your race is, nomatter what your identity is,
(20:32):
especially right now, inAmerica, most people have very
strong opinions about race andracism, and its history, and its
past and its future. And at theend of the day, there really is
no saying like, who, who isright. And who is wrong in that,
like, everybody's experience isjust their experience. And
(20:55):
we're, I don't know, we, we'rein this position now, where we
kind of have to move forward,knowing that this thing
happened, but also knowing thateveryone's experience is
different. And I don't know, forme personally, I think about the
people who say, you know, like,if you have to explain race to a
racist, they're winning, becausethey're taking your power away,
(21:18):
and they're, you're spending allthat energy, you could be using
creating, on trying to convincethem that racism exists. It's
like, I want to just, you know,take this time to, like, create
and to express myself. And ifthey, if they still think that
racism is a hoax or whatever,that's their world, that's their
reality. But I'm going to enjoymy reality, which is that all
(21:39):
these doors of open, like we'vejust talked about, you know, and
I'm going to do what I can toempower and to educate the
people who want to hear from me,but I'm not gonna try to waste
all this energy trying toconvince other people otherwise,
you know?
Yes.
Sorry, I was a long tangent.
No, no, no, this is good. I'mjust I was just listening to all
(22:01):
the things. And I will say yes,to all of what was just
mentioned. And there was so manylayers, also to what you just
shared, you know, but I think atthe end of the day, or in
summary, what I am getting fromthat, or how I would approach it
is it comes down to choosingyour battles, right. Yeah.
(22:23):
Because humans, and human natureis not anything new. Right.
Like, why is it that we havethose examples? Like, you know,
the Holocaust? And people stillthink it's a hoax. Right. And,
and then, you know, but we gotso close, you know, in the last
(22:45):
few years to repeating that,yeah, you know, in ways like, a
modern version of that couldhave repeated, we were so close.
And we all saw it coming. Right?
Yeah. And it's like, why are westill shocked? Because it is it
has happened? Like, wouldn't youthink that this is a situation
of like, no better do better.
But at the end of the day, it'sthe it's the human condition,
(23:07):
right? This is why historyrepeats itself. This is why we
go in and out of like, thesephases. And you know, when
people are like, oh, life is aroller coaster, there's like, so
many ups and downs, like Yes,yes, it is. But you know, it
also is a roller coaster.
History. Yeah. You know, becausewhy are we continuing to go on
similar paths of what hashappened? And it's like, we saw
(23:29):
what has happened, you know, wehave evidence, and we have
concrete things, anddocumentation of what has
happened, but why do we stilleither repeat or get really
close to repeating, you know,and it's just because people as,
as people are, right, all ofthose things come into play,
right? It's always like, and yousaid that people's opinions, I
(23:52):
would go further and say that alot of these things is not just
an opinion, a lot of these areactually beliefs, right? Yeah.
And I make the distinction,because an opinion to me, is
like, you know, did you likethat drink? Like, yes or no,
that's an opinion on it. Right?
But but a belief is like, youknow, I am not going to have
(24:13):
this drink because of x. y&zreason that I believe in, you
know, what that is religious orwhether it's for your health,
like, whatever, I don't know,you
know, I feel like beliefs arechangeable or movable.
Yes, these are things that arepart of your core as a person.
Right. And I think that beliefsis also what gets us to where we
are, right? Because if whateverpeople really believe in that is
(24:39):
what's going to drive them atthe end of the day. Yeah, you
know, and that's the thing,right? You could believe in
anything, and you could reallybelieve that you are doing, you
know, what is right in theworld. Right. But this is also
why in the past, right, Nazisreally thought they were doing
what was needed in A world, youknow, and it's like, well, what
(25:03):
do you do? You know, how do youchange someone who believes so
strongly in this, this thismission in this in this purpose?
Right? That they commit theirlives, their lives their life to
it, you know? Yeah. And so like,take any of that and apply it to
modern day, that's the samething we're doing right. We're
(25:24):
all, you know, theoretically,let's say we're free agents,
right. But we can get reallyinto that, because it can get
super complicated super quickly,because, you know, conditions
circumstances, of course, theseare all things of life, right.
But let's say on the theory thatwe're all free agents,
technically, right? We're all weall can do and believe whatever
we want, you know, yeah. And soat the end of the day, right,
(25:48):
what are your beliefs? Like?
What is the thing that drivesyou? It's the same thing of
like, if you believe thatthere's a binary, well, then I
don't know where to go withthat. You know, what I mean?
Like, whereas to me, like, Yes,I believe, you know, that, or
Oh, no, not really, Iunderstand, right? that most
(26:10):
people are going to function offof a binary, but also, it's
because that is what most peoplehave been given as a tool for
understanding, right? Or we weretold that right? Or we were
colonized, to think that, youknow, because if you look
further back on histories, andlike histories of people of
(26:30):
color, right, and let's be realspecific, I'd say this is more
American, I can't speak foranyone else. Because born and
raised here, you know, this iswhere I grew up, you know, what
I mean? So it's like, thedynamics of the culture that I'm
speaking on is like experienceshere and in America, you know?
And so it's like, yeah, thisidea of like, you know,
binaries, and, you know,Christianity being like, the
(26:54):
primary religion, and like, thisidea of like, a god. I mean,
it's been, it's in our thing of,like, you know, one nation under
God, you know, like, doeseverybody believe that? I don't
know, but, you know, it's there.
And it's just, it really goesback to like, Who ever had the
power at the time? And even ifyou look back on that, like, who
(27:15):
made and wrote these things, youknow, not not us, not us, the
people of color, people of coloralso had no voice when these
things were being made. So it'sjust like, you know, context is
important. Yeah, you know, andit's like, I think, context is
(27:36):
important in the belief, shapingand forming, you know, because
it's like, if, sure you canbelieve something, but Okay, put
that belief into play in thecontext of your, you know, what
you're living, how you'reacting, right. Is it still in
line? You know, yeah, withwhatever that belief is, and
(27:58):
then that can get reallycomplicated. But, you know, that
that's, that's, that's how Ilook at things essentially,
right? Like, what is it at theend of the day, that I believe
in? Right, and then I act fromthere, you know? And so like,
(28:19):
this is simple, but sure, thebinary like, that's the binary,
okay. Like, like, this is stuffthat we were told and taught,
and it was a way to try andcontrol us, you know, yeah. And
so it's like, do y agree andunderstand the need for it, I
understand the need that peoplehave, because people are also
(28:39):
just trying to figure out, youknow, things and most people are
functioning from this or thatplace, right? And I'm not just
talking about gender, right?
Most people live in a very,like, this is the same thing,
like how people live in a blackand white world, right? Yeah,
everything is either this orthat. Right? The binary is just
another version of the the blackand white thought, right?
Everything is this or that it'sus or them, right? And it's just
(29:02):
like, I can't agree with y'all.
And also what a what a bleakplace to live in that you only
think there are two options toeverything, you know.
Yeah, seriously. And I think Ireally think that that goes back
to again, you're seeing like onenation under God like this is
say anything that you want aboutyou know, religious freedom,
(29:25):
First Amendment, all that stuff.
The fact of the matter is, thepeople who started this country
and the people who havecontinuously held power for the
entire duration of America beingAmerica have been Christian. And
I really do think that you know,the two non Christian presidents
we've ever had, were Catholic,like, Come on, get out of here
(29:48):
like that's still Christianity.
At the end of day you stillbelieve asis, Jesus Christ as
your Savior and all thesethings. Yeah. But I really I've
been thinking about this a lot.
How Religion shapes culture. AndI really think that this binary
because it drives I totallyagree with you. And I can't
(30:08):
stand this constant, you know,everything is this or that
everything is so binary. And Ithink that if you really take a
step back and examine why it'sso hard for Pete, for most
people to get out of that, andwhy we're so easily conditioned
into believing that is, becausewhether you are a Christian or
(30:29):
not, we did grow up in thiscountry that was led and run,
and all of its policies wereshaped in all of its culture was
shaped around the idea ofChristianity. And Christianity,
more or less does preach like avery binary based way of looking
at the world. Everything iseither good or bad. It's either
(30:51):
Christ like or it's devil, like,you're either going to heaven or
you're going to hell, there isone God, there is one way, so
you either believe it or youdon't. And there's no room for
gray area. And I and again, evenif you're even if you don't
believe in Christianity,personally, you're still
affected by growing up in thisenvironment, where all of the
(31:14):
policies, all the dishes,everything is based around this
understanding of how theuniverse works. And I, yeah,
we were stuck. Right with withwhat it is right, just because
of where we are, you know,physically and also the time and
(31:34):
space, right, like, everythingyou said that you're stuck with
these ideas is because that iswhat we were functioning from
that is what we were taught inschools, that is what we are
taught in workplaces, like thatis just as a whole what the
majority of people think. Andalso, that is what is presented
to us in media. Right. Yeah.
Which is huge. And I'd say that,in ways media is more powerful
(31:57):
than education in this country,let's say because not everyone,
unfortunately, not everyone'saccess to education is the same.
Right? Right. But but mostpeople's access to the TV, or to
movies is about the same, youknow, oh, that's
(32:19):
a good point. I never thoughtabout it that way. You're
totally right. Yeah,there's, there's money involved.
There's class involved. There'sall kinds of things involved in
terms of education and likethat, like, don't get me you
know, don't get it twisted,though. I truly believe that
knowledge is still power, youknow, like I like as cheesy and
whatever, they talk to you aboutthat? I think it's true, right?
Because knowledge andinformation, like education can
(32:40):
still take you a long way. It'salso how we are able to, you
know, be able to think aboutthings in different ways. Right?
You got to learn how to learnfor sure, yes, or unlearn. Okay,
more importantly, yeah.
Right. If there's a distinctionof like, here's what has been
said to me, what do I want tolearn? What things do I need to
unlearn? You know, yeah, um, butbut that's the thing, right? If
(33:04):
we're talking about education,and, and, you know, access to
information, there's still abunch of like, barriers to that,
because not everyone, you know,can afford college, not everyone
can afford private schools, noteveryone can afford, like, the
quality and the type of, ofeducation that we all get is so
varied, you know, and then evenif we talk about, like, people
(33:25):
who come here to immigrate here,you know, school systems and
education around the world isalso very different. You know,
so it's like, there's no like,way to really say that we're all
starting from the same thing,because we're not, but you know,
why is there more barriers toeducation than there are to
like, media and entertainment.
Right? Right. So at the end ofthe day, who really is teaching
(33:48):
us media is, you know, thethings that we think we're being
entertained by, yes, we areusing it and viewing it as
entertainment. But how manypeople are going to, you know,
use that as the example. And asthe thing of like, well, I saw,
you know, in this movie, thatthis is, you know, what they
said about a group of people orlike, you know, and whether they
(34:10):
consciously know that right, butthe way you saw how these people
were treated in this series isis is what you're going to form
your your thought and opinionabout these people, or about
this situation or about, youknow, whatever, you know,
Allie, you're blowing my mind. Ihaven't thought about this at
all. And it really, it reallygoes to show to why. Why it's so
(34:34):
exciting that the barriers tocreating and sharing media have
calmed down. And yes, it becauseit you know, we've always known
that media is a big part ofculture, but culture and
education are so intertwinedlike we are influenced by what
we see by what we hear andthere's so much more of that
(34:56):
coming from media than there isfrom you know, Traditional
institutional education. Yes. SoSo us being I mean, us even
being able to have thisconversation and put it out in
the world, even if it affects,you know, just one person,
that's one person that would nothave had exposure to these
(35:16):
kinds, I mean, shit, it'salready affecting me. You know,
one person, I am that person, itis me. Yeah, but seriously, it's
like, That's why, you know,I've, I have felt that it's so
important to have representationand for me to put myself out
there and for me to not justslip away into being stealth,
(35:40):
and just live in the privilegeof being recognized by most
people. You know, judging a bookby its cover, most people see me
as a cisgender. Man, even thoughI'm not even though I was
assigned female at birth. And tome, it's always been really,
always in the three years thatI've, since I've been out in
transitioning, but I, I've neverreally wavered from this idea
(36:03):
of, you know, obviously, incertain situations around
strangers, I'm not always gonnabe like, Hi, I'm Leo, and I'm
transgender. But for the mostpart, just my, I had to have my
public persona out there beingvery out, making sure that the
the Tanzanian flag is visible asoften as possible you to do all
these things, because that ispart of influencing the greater
(36:26):
world and to be like, hey, it'snot just this one way of
thinking, it's not just this oneway of entertaining, it's not
just this one way of viewing theworld. There are other ideas out
there. And hopefully, over time,we're able to, you know, very
slowly but surely, you know,change those waves of history,
because history does repeat.
It's more like a ferris wheelthan a roller coaster. And when
(36:48):
we really look at what the humancondition is, and and kind of
where we fall into that we cankind of then choose, do we want
to stick in this one box? Or dowe do we want to change because
I mean, that's what I saw with,with, you know, education and
the, you know, the people talkabout like the school to prison
(37:09):
pipeline, there's also just likethe school to factory pipeline,
like school, traditional schoolisn't really teaching you how to
think it's, it's, it's teachingyou how to be a good employee
that doesn't talk back to yourboss, who just does your job.
And, and I saw that for what itwas, it was, you know, and I'm
doing everything in my power tonot just be a cog in that kind
(37:31):
of machine. But a lot of how Ihave come to understand that
hasn't been what I learned inschool, none of that was what I
learned in school, it was what Ilearned from the media that I
sought out, that offered me adifferent way of viewing the
world, whether it was a book,whether it was some influential
(37:52):
No, you're no matter what itwas, you know, a movie Music
Music was a large part of it forme, and I think it's a large
part of it for a lot of people.
But yeah, I mean, that's whyit's so exciting. When we say
it's exciting, that we havethese opportunities, it's
because we get to be part ofthat new education in the world.
(38:15):
I mean, whether we want to saythis is new or not, you know, I
think this is something thatpeople have done throughout
history, right? You always havepeople who were seen as
outsiders or like crazy, or, youknow, literally, this is the
basis of witches, right? This isbecause that's, that's why
people came to think of whatwitches were just like powerful
women, it's like, we must takethem down. Like even That in
(38:38):
itself. Okay, y'all, that is,like, people who thought
differently, is not somethingnew. Right. And also people
wanting to censor, and andcontrol and to, you know, also,
in some unfortunate ways,literally take out those voices.
Right. That is also not new.
Yeah. You know, but I think ifwe look at now versus then, you
(39:01):
know, hopefully we all know alittle bit better as, as a as a
race of people. Right, butbetter is relative. But you
know, in terms of like theaccess, right? We do have more
access in that way. Technologyis great, right? Because, and
there's and there's lessbarriers, like literally anyone
can put out whatever they want,you know, but also there's that
(39:25):
right? Everyone can and somepeople really do. And then but
here's the thing, people arealso still spewing their hate
stuff out there. Right? Yeah,people are still putting that
out, you know, and, and, and soit's like, those are the things
that don't change, but at leastwe all kind of have chances to,
you know, share our voices andput them out there, you know,
(39:47):
because I think everything atthe end of the day comes out to
balance right? And a lot of mythinking of why you know, I
would and this is also the backto what you said about like, you
know, you're not going to meeteverybody you say, Hey, I'm
Leon, I'm a trans man, you know,like, right, not necessary in
most situations. And also, atthe end of the day, we need to
(40:07):
talk about safety. Right?
Because that is also ultimatelyfor me what I choose, right,
based on whatever interactionlike you want to be safe. Yeah.
Because also the world is crazystill. But you know, but we, we
can also do things like this,right? where it's like, you
know, we can put our voices, wecan share our stories
authentically, in ways that, youknow, it just wasn't before and
(40:30):
like, you know, I was alwayslooking and seeking myself and
representation in ways, right, Iwas looking for the movies that
had a TV shows, whatever books,you know, comics, you know, and
it's like, I'm, like, I can't bethe only one right looking. So
there's, like, that's the thing,people are also looking for
themselves, right? Whether they,you know, want to, for to
(40:53):
understand themselves better, orto feel like, you know, I'm not
alone, I feel like at the end ofthe day, that's what it is.
Right? Like, we see others andwe see community and, you know,
as people in ways we need, we'resocial beings, right? level of
social will vary, okay, I getthat. Like, there's introverts,
extroverts are a whole notherthing, but you know, in ways,
(41:14):
you know, we are social beingsas people, and we want to find
others like this, because wewant to, you know, have feel
understood, right, feel lesslonely. And so I think, you
know, media really is a greatplace for that. But, you know,
we, we still have a lot of workto do, right? Because if we look
(41:34):
at stats, and if we look at allthese other things, like, you
know, glad releases the reportevery year about, you know,
representation and media, andit's just like, man, looking at
those numbers, year after year.
It's, it's just like, I mean,I'm glad that the numbers go up
for Asians, right. But, but, butbut it's still so insignificant,
(41:55):
you know, compared to otherthings, but, you know, maybe
maybe this is what it is, right?
We're at that kind of it feelslike, that's where we're headed.
Right? as the largest communityand that, you know, there's more
pressure Now, on the industry,and in Hollywood, right, who
(42:17):
really is like a major factor inthis, you know, um, and, you
know, there's more, there's morereally cool stuff that's coming
out, you know, like, I mean, letme tell you animated series,
right, is really where it's atright now, like, the gays are
(42:37):
winning there. Yeah.
Like, and I just like watchingthese like, series that are
like, you know, made for kids orwhatever, but I'm just like,
wow, wow, well, well, well, I'msorry, you're holding hands with
your girlfriend. And you arealso a girl like what? Or like,
you know, like, there's likepeople who just have like,
crushes on everyone. And like,you know, they don't think twice
(43:00):
P. Okay. There are charactersthat use they them pronouns in
there. And I'm just like, excuseme, and everyone in this world
doesn't question it. They just,they just carry on and use the
correct pronouns. Like, wow,what a time What up? Yes.
Seriously, it's like it kidseries can get this. It's just
like, okay, yeah.
Well, also, if a kid series isdoing that, that is shaping the
(43:22):
next generation to be more openminded. And to you know, really,
because I think what I, you'reright, the numbers still don't
look great. But I think I'm, Ifeel like I'm seeing the
potential, it's like, I see thatwe're just getting started in
this new wave. People who havealways, you know, kind of made
their voices heard or beendifferent, you're right, they're
(43:42):
not new, but the quickness andthe way that they're able to get
their voices out to the massesas a whole, as opposed to just
being in some underground, orimmediately being, you know,
thrown in jail or thrown intothe lake with a fucking anchor
(44:05):
tied to them in like in a witchhunt. Like, these, these things
are not happening. And so whenyou see that, even that little
bit of representation is goingto change things for the next
generation. It's like we are,you know, when you're in a
revolution, you kind of have tounderstand that you're not going
to live to see the results. Andwe're kind of you were putting
(44:27):
down this groundwork where, youknow, 234 generations from now,
these things that we're talkingabout, just being on the
precipice of are probably thingsthat are going to be taken for
granted, hopefully, anyway, Imean, cuz that's the other
thing. It's like, it can reallygo in either direction. Like you
said, we came real close tohaving a holocaust. So it's like
(44:48):
we but the more that we putourselves out there, the more
that we do that work, and themore that we find ways to do it
in ways that keep us safe, themore of a chance there is for
things to keep bending in In thedirection towards, honestly just
freedom from all these binaries,because I don't I don't know
that they really do anyone anyfavors. Yeah, it makes things
(45:09):
simpler because that's how howwe're taught to believe things.
But I remember hearing a transactivists saying that the
existence of trans women inwomen's spaces, f helps to
reject the notion that women'srole is just to be a baby making
(45:29):
machine. You know, it's likethese these binaries, they trap
everybody. And so, to be able tofree ourselves from that, you
know, that's, it's a beautifulthing. Like, I love to see it
because I feel like I've, I'velived in the, you know, like,
I'm biracial, black and white,I'm, you know, transgender, I
have lived experience in the twolike, binary genders that we've
(45:52):
set up. And it's like, I feellike I have this bird's eye view
to be like, it's all bullshit.
Like, life is so much better inthe gray area, I used to joke
people would ask me what I wasraised by as in high school, I'd
say I'm gray, because I'm black.
And I'm white, you know? Andblack or white makes great, but
it's true. It's like, there's sothere's so much beauty in that
gray area. And there's so muchmore potential for human growth
(46:15):
and expansion and all the thingsbut you know, it, but isn't,
they have a long way to go.
Great in ways, though. And Ithink I mean, that's, I mean,
okay, speaking about queerexperience, speaking about, you
know, multicultural, like youjust shared, right? If you were
not these things, can youimagine what your point of view
(46:37):
with the world would be?
I can't, I literally can't, Ihave no idea because you're
right, all of all of the waythat I see the world, I see. So
clearly now how much my lifeexperience shapes, my beliefs.
And that's true for everybody,you know, even people who are in
the like, queue and on circlesand stuff like that. I'm like, I
(46:58):
vehemently disagree with you.
But at the end of the day, Iunderstand how you got to where
you're at, you know, like,right, which is unfortunate,
but, and scary. But, you know,it's just, we're all people
living in this world based offour experiences, and all I can
do is make my experience moreknown so that other people like
(47:19):
me, feel empowered to also, youknow, make their voice heard and
make their difference inwhatever their corner of the
world is, in whatever industry,they work in whatever the case
may be.
Right. And I think, you know,quick thought on that, right?
Because you mentioned purposeand things like that, you know,
even soul right as the movie,the Disney movie, so yeah, its
(47:42):
whole thing was like all thishype around, you gotta find your
purpose, and you got to knowwhat you know, you're living
for, and bla bla bla, but at theend of the day spoiler for those
who haven't watched it, but, um,you know, at the end of the day,
the message wasn't find yourpurpose, right? The meaning of
life was just to live and toexperience it, you know, and I
think that was brilliant.
Because in ways that takes off,like this crazy pressure that
(48:04):
gets put on us as people tolike, you have to have a
purpose, like you need to findyour life purpose you need to be
doing, you know, whatever yourthing is that you were here on
earth to do. Right. But, youknow, why isn't existing? The
purpose, right? Because, even,you know, if we look at the end
(48:25):
of the day, the fact that weexist, the fact that we go out,
and we navigate the world, thefact that we interact, we are
also changing the world thatway. Yeah. You know, like, if
people if we didn't interactwith people, where else would
they get some information?
right? Exactly. And that's thething I think about, like, it's
great to be, you know, in yourbubbles, find your community, of
course, right. Like, that isimportant, but also, it's like,
(48:47):
it's the work outside of there,right? Like when we enter
spaces, and when we interact,like, the fact that we exist as
we are and we and we feel safeenough and authentic enough to
to share that with others. Likethat's the things that really
changes thoughts, right. 100that's really what gets people
really like thinking and couldpotentially at the end of the
(49:07):
day, change a belief. Yeah. Andso it's just like, why, you
know, like, I get the wholepurpose thing and all that but
you know, for people who justwant to exist, why can't people
also just exist because noteveryone also has that luxury,
right? Because if we talk aboutbeing closeted, you know, things
(49:27):
like that or like having to hideparts of who you are. Right at
the end of the day. The factthat we can exist out loud is
also big. Yeah. Which is whatsome people are still struggling
to just do so it's like knowwhat so you got to put you know,
you got a point there, just,just just living life as as you
you know, feel is best for you,you know, whatever that is.
(49:49):
Exactly. I love that and that isyou know what, Disney is a big
part of the the beginningblossoming of our friendship,
and we are just about out oftime, I think I think that's a
perfect place to end. We've See,we didn't talk about fucking
anything that I said, I think Isaid initially that I wanted to
(50:10):
talk about, we mentioned alittle NAS x. And we just went
on all these tangents. I loveit. I mean, this was, this was
great. I really enjoyed thisconversation. And I appreciate
you because again, I think thatthis conversation really helps
exemplify and articulate a lotof what I mean, when I say that,
(50:32):
I see that the world ischanging. So thank you for
participating in this in thisdiscourse with me, it was great.
I sure appreciate it as well.
Anytime This is feels like whatwe would have talked about on
any other occasion. SoOh, for sure. We finally record
that we've been talking for awhile and a lot of this has been
interesting. It would have beenplenty good for the podcast.
(50:52):
Yeah. is great. Perhaps just tostart? Yeah, yeah. Let's see.
Let's look maybe this will belike an ongoing series. I love
it. dives into Disney. Yes. Yes.
taught me about life. Oh, yo.
millennial than that. I love ittruly. From queer people's
perspective,okay. Oh, yeah. Hell yeah. I'm
(51:15):
all for it. I yeah. Okay. Well,we'll talk about that. Yes, sir.
Is there anything you'd like topromote? No. Don't find me Don't
look for me.
was like so quick and so easy.
It's like, No, I'm, I mean, Ijust am not on social media as
(51:40):
much as there's really not muchthere right now. No, I will say
I am, you know, at the precipiceof a of a, you know, getting
back into the game and creatingmore. And so, if you want at
least Santos, it's my handle foreverything. Great, but don't
expect too much, y'all. Okay.
(52:01):
Taking abreak. Now that expectations
have been appropriately tapered,no one, no one at how you sent
us if you are dissatisfied withthe lack of content. All right,
Allie, thankme on a post. It's fine. You
know, I'll just read throughyour
account. I mean, I'll definitelytag you in any posts about this
(52:22):
episode. So that is post show.
All right. Allie, thank you somuch. This has been great. I
will hopefully talk to you verysoon.
I'm sure man. All right. Takecare.
See ya.
All right. Once again, that wasalley Santos. alley, we got to
(52:46):
get this Disney from a careerperspective, web show series,
whatever. We got to make thishappen. Cash when I listened
back, and I heard that I waslike, Oh, yeah, yeah, we got to
do that. So stay tuned, folks.
We'll figure out how to makethat happen. And hey, if you
enjoyed what you heard, pleaseconsider giving us a five star
rating review, especially onApple. It is like currency. It
(53:09):
helps us get to more people.
Make this your Instagram story.
Take a screenshot of the podcastposted on your Instagram story.
You can tag me at Leo Yockey.
That's LEYOCKY. And let me knowif there's someone that you
think I should be interviewingfor this show. I had a couple of
(53:32):
suggestions come up. And I'vescheduled at least one interview
now. So I'm really lookingforward to upcoming shows. This
whole this whole project hasjust been a blast so far. So
thank you for being on thisjourney with me. Have a great
week. I'll be back next weekwith another one of my tech
friends should be great. Stay athome.
Hello, and welcome to anotherepisode of the Leo Yockey show
the show where I Leo Yockeyinterview guests about the
universal truths in their uniquelife paths. All right, I got to
make this quick because there'sa whole bunch of construction
going on next door like allweek. But before we dive into
the interview, I want to share alittle bit about how I know this
(00:36):
week's guest. Ali Santos, do youever think about how so many
different things had to alignjust right, for a certain person
or situation to come into yourlife. This is kind of how Ali
and I met. So back in early2018, I had just moved to West
(00:57):
LA and started my first job as asoftware engineer. And I had a
friend that lived really closeto me, l hopefully another
future guest to the show. So land I were hanging out in a bar
in our neighborhood. And shetold me that she thought that I
would get along really well withher friend, Ali. So l arranged
(01:19):
for us to all meet at that samebar, like a week later. When
that day arrives, I get a textfrom owl while I'm at work,
saying, Hey, I'm sorry,something came up. I'm not going
to be able to make it tonight.
However, I think you and Alliewould get along. I still think
that you too, should meet. Andat first, you know, my
(01:40):
introverted ass was like,absolutely not no way that I
thought about it for a while.
And I realized, you know, I'dhad a stressful day at work. I
could use some socialinteraction. Fine. I'm going to
do it. So Ali and I and Ali'sroommate we all meet and we had
a great time. And now Honestly,I think I think I ended up
(02:04):
seeing Ali more than I saw lwhile we all lived in that
neighborhood. So thank you l forbringing us together. And this
conversation, this interview.
It's really not an interview,this one really is a
conversation. Y'all are reallygoing to get to be a fly on the
wall for the kind ofconversations that Allie and I
honestly, anytime we talk thisis these are the kinds of things
(02:26):
that we talk about, you know, weare both people of color in the
LGBTQ community who work intech, but have creative passions
have and I think ourconversation reflects a lot of
that. So without further ado,here's Allie.
(02:59):
Oh, wait, Allie, when is yourbirthday? I keep forgetting. I
know you're a Leo. So it'seither. It's like now ish. I
feel like right.
Ah, close. I'm on the cusp. Sothe 20th of this month.
Okay. Okay, cool. So it'll,it'll probably be belated by the
time this comes out. Anyway,hello, Ollie. How are you doing
(03:24):
today?
What's up Leo? From Leo toanother?
Right. I'm like, not even. I Myname is Leo. But I'm actually
astrologically the opposite. I'man Aquarius. I know. I know.
It's so I like to think that itmakes me a very well rounded
(03:44):
individual.
Okay, I believe in that. I do. Itruly believe that we should all
be you know, reaching for andbalancing out and, you know,
we're going on some kind ofequilibrium.
Yeah, absolutely. So I'll takethat.
I'll take that Aquarian Leo.
Yes. Hey,yo, Cray. I know that's, that's
what I should. If I was like, ifI were to become a rapper or
(04:07):
something, maybe that oh my god,yeah.
What a time you think that namewould fly?
Aquarian Leo? Yeah, why not? Whocares? That's right. There's
like rappers named like lil uzivert, like who who cares what is
(04:28):
lil NAS x even mean? Like, ofcourse, I could be Aquarian
Leah.
She that also blessed little NASx. Okay. Series really just
wanted to do what I want. AndI'm gonna do it my way.
is actually the perfect segueinto this because, Allie, the
reason why I want to have you onthis show is because I feel like
(04:51):
I talk a lot about how the worldis changing. And there's just
opportunities available thatweren't before and we're in this
like revolution. slashRenaissance period. And it's
time to just live the life thatyou want. And I think that out
of all my friends, I think youresonate with that the most and
(05:12):
the, the existence of someonelike lil NAS x is absolutely an
example of that like this, youknow, very openly gay man would
not have been able to do whathe's doing, like having some man
lick his face on SNL performanceand stuff like that, like, yeah,
you know, and the once a call,call me by the devil, exactly.
(05:36):
Like none of this would havebeen possible before at a time.
Yes. You know, he's gettinglike, what 100 million streams
on his songs or something likethat. Like, if here's
what's cool about that, righthere he is, is one part. But the
other part is he's thriving.
Yes, that is, I think thedifference why this time in
place matters.
(05:57):
Exactly. Because back Back inthe day, someone like little NAS
x wouldn't have been able tohave access to the resources
avail needed to reach this levelof stardom. And now, you know,
you can essentially, I mean, Iwas talking about before we
started this, you know,recording this podcast recording
(06:19):
this interview in the past, itwould have required a sound
engineer on site, and we wouldhave had to be in persons who
would have needed to book somespace. And we would have, you
know, and for the video, wewould have needed camera, people
in good lighting, and goodacoustics and all these things.
And all that is wrapped up in,we both just open up our laptops
(06:41):
and open a zoom meeting and andit's all taken care of for us
and we can put this out on theinternet, we don't have to pay
for copies of it to be printedin any way for people to be able
to listen to at home, you know,so there's just all these
different ways that the barriershave just come down like all
these, I mean, they're notarbitrary music gatekeeping
(07:02):
they're real, you know,infrastructural art, obstacles
that are just not there anymore.
And so that means, you know,people like us people who are
not just white cisgender middleclass, mostly men, you know,
like we have we have avenues todo what we want to do, you know,
(07:25):
I was gonna see how much furtheryou went into that list.
Christian leaning, right.
Like, how specific of themajority do do we want to get
into? And how much of that do wereally divert from it? Right?
Yeah, seriously, I was readingabout this author that died. I
(07:48):
think his name, his name is likeAnthony so. And he had this
artist description where he hedescribed himself as a gay
immigrant, Cambodian American,diagnosed with manic depressive
disorder. And I was like, I waslike, Yeah, I relate to this. I
mean, not, not manic depressive,and not gay, and not Cambodian,
(08:13):
American. So what do I relate toI relate to just having that
many things that you can list,you know, like, I, again, it's
like, the fact that we can evenbe out here, you know, people,
you know, we talk a lot aboutrepresentation. And there's been
a decent amount of blackrepresentation. But when you get
(08:34):
we get to drill down into thespecifics of the diaspora, like,
most people have never evenheard of the country that my dad
is from Tanzania, you know, andso, I don't know, it's just,
it's cool. We're able to putourselves out on the map in a
way that just was not possiblebefore. I
know for sure, and even in thedescription of the author, I
mean, rip that said, news thatpassed. But how often do you
(08:57):
hear someone just talk aboutCambodian? Right, or, or any,
anything more specific, youknow, in regards to Asian
representation, which I think isstill, I mean, that's still what
happens, right? People will justclump it in, it's just like
Asians, right, but then you wantto get into that, and there's
like, a whole bunch of other,you know, countries and races
(09:21):
within Asia, right. And then Ithink what gets seen most of the
time, or what people are used tois right, East Asian
representation, right? And thenmore recent, you know, at least
I feel that it's like SoutheastAsians are getting you know,
more recognition and there'stalks about that. And you know,
people getting real specific andif you really want to get into
(09:45):
it, you can deep dive at anytime because you know, the
internet loves to just talk andeveryone get has an opinion
about things and I have a lot ofmixed emotions when I get into
this kind of stuff because it'slike When we're talking about,
you know, technology, right? Andalso being in tech, right, I
(10:06):
like, I love tech, but thenthere's also, you know,
everything has its dark sides.
Yeah, say, right. And even withthis thing of like the filter,
and having lower barriers, Ithink it's great that we have
that option, right? Like,literally anyone who has
internet access and has accessto a device of some sort, right?
(10:28):
Whether that's like a mobilephone, or a, you know, a camera,
log your webcam, like whatever,right? Like that is the age that
we're living in, that people canuse anything. And this is where
content really is, like, themost important part, right? It's
not about the quality of things,it's about what are you putting
(10:49):
out? Right, it's the quality ofwhat is being put out in ways.
So it's like, I think it's agreat time because, you know,
510, whatever years, whatever, Xamount of years before this,
right, whatever, whatever youwant to place, right? It, you
know, is definitely a muchharder thing to do. But because
technology continues to expandexponentially, right, like, the
(11:14):
ease of things has alsoexponentially gotten easy.
You're in So yeah, I mean, it's,it's what a time, what a time
that we're living in and, andeven with, like who we are as
people. That's true. We, youwould not see or hear our
(11:34):
voices, or see us, you know, ifyou're see this clip on video
somewhere, like, you wouldn'thear or see, like, you know,
these voices together on anymajor type of production, right,
it was just a totally differenttime. It's also the access,
right? And I'm sure there'sstill things like that are going
(12:00):
on in Hollywood, right, like allthe stuff about casting and all
of you know, there just wouldn'tbe roles or anything for us.
Yeah, and that's just the waybecause the stories that were
written, were not being writtenby us either. You know, and so
it's like, all the things thatyou also listed before that,
(12:21):
right? sexual orientation,gender identity, you know,
presentation, religion,whatever, right? these are,
these are all things that we useto like, divide ourselves, but
at the same time, we, we use itto also identify with and find
community. So that's why, youknow, I feel like everything is
(12:42):
just relative, and we go backand forth. It's all just like,
how you utilize, you know,whatever that thing is.
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And itis interesting how, you know, at
the end of the day, all of thesethings that we use to identify
ourselves, they're all manmadeconstructs, you know, race is a
(13:06):
man made construct, gender is aman made construct. You know,
the borders that we use todivide countries are obviously
man made constructs. And I'vebeen thinking about this a lot,
too, it's like, there, we usethese identities as a way to
(13:28):
find community to find simple,universal language to be able to
reach out to people who havebackgrounds in similarities to
us, but it's, it also has thecapacity to create this, like
ego driven, like us versus themmentality, that becomes really
(13:51):
destructive. So identity, kindof has the ability to people's
constructive and destructive,just kind of depending on how
you use it, you know?
Yes, and I think it is, all ofthis ties back to human nature.
Right? Yeah. Um, because if wewere really to be objective
(14:13):
about things, right, if youdidn't feel one way or another,
like these things would justexist, right. But it's what we
do with those things. type ofdeal. So it's like, I mean,
that's why I think like, whenpeople ask if like, something is
good, or something is bad, Imean, who is who who's to say,
right? Yeah, what is good andbad, and also good and bad is
(14:35):
going to vary so much, based onwho you're talking to. Right?
Like, I know, this is extreme,but, you know, this is something
we all went through literally,the whole world did, right? So
COVID is, is you know, it'shappening, right? And then
people are gonna have all kindsof feelings about it, I'm sure
and I'm sure those feelingsstill exist, because you know,
(14:57):
we're still going through it,y'all but that in So this whole
nother thing, right? But why isit during this time that some
people really loved it reallyenjoyed it and were thriving.
Right? But then other peopleprobably hit like rock bottom,
and it was the worst times oftheir life. And, you know, so
it's just like, technically anobjective thing here is a
(15:19):
pandemic happened, you know?
Yeah. And then based on who youask about what it was, or how
was it? Or what do you think onit, you're gonna get, however
many answers based on how manypeople you asked, you know, and
I feel that you could do thesame with anything. And so with
identity and like how peoplefeel about themselves, or
identity or identities, youknow, that is going to vary from
(15:42):
person to person. And it's thesame thing of like, I think it's
great, the where we're headed ofyou can't just assume something
about anyone. Yeah. I mean,people will write. And, and
that's, but that also is justwhat happens, right? But, you
know, we're in a place wherepeople are asking pronouns,
people are asking about, youknow, how they identify more.
(16:02):
So, you know, I'm not gonna saythat this is I'd say, this is
standard practice, by any means,you know, but the fact that more
conversations like this arehappening, is a sign of
progress. And, you know, for me,I think that's really cool.
Because it's like, we're gettingcloser to a place where you
can't just assume somethingabout someone based on looks
(16:23):
alone. Yeah. And if you want to,you know, and then people want
to, like, complain and say,like, Oh, my God, like, this is
so much work, or like, oh, like,what is this? And like, people
are being so sensitive, or, youknow, insert whatever thought or
feeling about it, right? Yeah.
But it's like, this idea,though, is not new by any means.
(16:46):
Right? How many people haveheard never, you know, judge a
book by its cover that is old ashell? Yeah. But that's
essentially the same principlehere. Right? Because what is
happening when you see someone,if you were to look at either of
us, how can you How could youpossibly know, any of those
things that we just mentioned?
How could you know, how weidentify how could you know,
what our pronouns are? How couldyou How can you do any of this,
(17:08):
you know, everything is justpresumptions.
Yeah, and I love that. And it'sso it's so true, it's like, and
that's why it's so great that wehave the ability to kind of own
our platforms and talk about it.
Because Yeah, it's like, youcan't guess by looking at most
people what their experiencesare. And it's so easy to judge a
(17:32):
book by its cover. And part ofthat is because I think we've
been given such a smallsampling, before in media
representations, stuff likethat, of what the human
experience actually is, that wedon't, it's limited our
creativity and how open ourminds can be, you know, like,
(17:52):
what we're humans can be andwhat we do and what we want and
who we are. But I like, youknow, your example, about COVID,
I think it's so interesting,because as you're talking about,
you know, like, people can kindof see it as a good or a bad
thing, kind of just depending onwho you ask, I started like,
thinking in my head about peoplethat I know, that would say that
(18:16):
it was either a good or a badtime, you know, like, I have
people who got into dream jobsthat were kind of as a result of
COVID. And I have other peoplewho, you know, know, people that
they were really close to whodied. And so this was obviously
a very difficult time for themand kind of everything in
between. And there's people who,you know, kind of reassess their
values and other people who, youknow, kind of live their life as
(18:41):
if there was no COVID andcontinue to go out and travel
and refuse to wear mat, youknow, there's all these
different things. And thereality is that COVID-19
circulated through the world,and all of our lives were
affected, and how peopleresponded to it has everything
to do with their life, and thecombination of who they are in
(19:04):
their past leading up to thispoint, as well as the things
that they experienced as aresult of COVID because the
person who was a, you know,essential worker and still had
to work all the way through, hada very different experience than
someone who, you know, got towork from home, even if all of
their life leading up to thatpoint was exactly the same. And
(19:25):
I think that that same conceptscan be applied to everything in
the world, you know, race, theconcept of race, and what has
happened in our world because ofrace is a thing that has
happened that has circulated theworld and has affected
everybody, and how you feelabout it, and whether you think
(19:46):
it's a good or a bad thing andwhether you think the changes in
the tides turning are is a goodor a bad thing. And how much do
you think it even exists?
Because there's people who thinkthat COVID is a hoax. There's
people that think that theHolocaust never happened or
that's Slavery wasn't a badthing or didn't happen, or
whatever the case may be, like,there's people who think these
things. And even to have thatopinion, it has to do with who
(20:10):
you are as a person. And so Ithink it's, it, it's really
interesting kind of applyingthis very objective thing, to,
like COVID, you know, objectivemeaning, like the disease itself
is just, it's just a thing thathappened. And to kind of take it
to something that we take sopersonally like race, because no
matter what your race is, nomatter what your identity is,
(20:32):
especially right now, inAmerica, most people have very
strong opinions about race andracism, and its history, and its
past and its future. And at theend of the day, there really is
no saying like, who, who isright. And who is wrong in that,
like, everybody's experience isjust their experience. And
(20:55):
we're, I don't know, we, we'rein this position now, where we
kind of have to move forward,knowing that this thing
happened, but also knowing thateveryone's experience is
different. And I don't know, forme personally, I think about the
people who say, you know, like,if you have to explain race to a
racist, they're winning, becausethey're taking your power away,
(21:18):
and they're, you're spending allthat energy, you could be using
creating, on trying to convincethem that racism exists. It's
like, I want to just, you know,take this time to, like, create
and to express myself. And ifthey, if they still think that
racism is a hoax or whatever,that's their world, that's their
reality. But I'm going to enjoymy reality, which is that all
(21:39):
these doors of open, like we'vejust talked about, you know, and
I'm going to do what I can toempower and to educate the
people who want to hear from me,but I'm not gonna try to waste
all this energy trying toconvince other people otherwise,
you know?
Yes.
Sorry, I was a long tangent.
No, no, no, this is good. I'mjust I was just listening to all
(22:01):
the things. And I will say yes,to all of what was just
mentioned. And there was so manylayers, also to what you just
shared, you know, but I think atthe end of the day, or in
summary, what I am getting fromthat, or how I would approach it
is it comes down to choosingyour battles, right. Yeah.
(22:23):
Because humans, and human natureis not anything new. Right.
Like, why is it that we havethose examples? Like, you know,
the Holocaust? And people stillthink it's a hoax. Right. And,
and then, you know, but we gotso close, you know, in the last
(22:45):
few years to repeating that,yeah, you know, in ways like, a
modern version of that couldhave repeated, we were so close.
And we all saw it coming. Right?
Yeah. And it's like, why are westill shocked? Because it is it
has happened? Like, wouldn't youthink that this is a situation
of like, no better do better.
But at the end of the day, it'sthe it's the human condition,
(23:07):
right? This is why historyrepeats itself. This is why we
go in and out of like, thesephases. And you know, when
people are like, oh, life is aroller coaster, there's like, so
many ups and downs, like Yes,yes, it is. But you know, it
also is a roller coaster.
History. Yeah. You know, becausewhy are we continuing to go on
similar paths of what hashappened? And it's like, we saw
(23:29):
what has happened, you know, wehave evidence, and we have
concrete things, anddocumentation of what has
happened, but why do we stilleither repeat or get really
close to repeating, you know,and it's just because people as,
as people are, right, all ofthose things come into play,
right? It's always like, and yousaid that people's opinions, I
(23:52):
would go further and say that alot of these things is not just
an opinion, a lot of these areactually beliefs, right? Yeah.
And I make the distinction,because an opinion to me, is
like, you know, did you likethat drink? Like, yes or no,
that's an opinion on it. Right?
But but a belief is like, youknow, I am not going to have
(24:13):
this drink because of x. y&zreason that I believe in, you
know, what that is religious orwhether it's for your health,
like, whatever, I don't know,you
know, I feel like beliefs arechangeable or movable.
Yes, these are things that arepart of your core as a person.
Right. And I think that beliefsis also what gets us to where we
are, right? Because if whateverpeople really believe in that is
(24:39):
what's going to drive them atthe end of the day. Yeah, you
know, and that's the thing,right? You could believe in
anything, and you could reallybelieve that you are doing, you
know, what is right in theworld. Right. But this is also
why in the past, right, Nazisreally thought they were doing
what was needed in A world, youknow, and it's like, well, what
(25:03):
do you do? You know, how do youchange someone who believes so
strongly in this, this thismission in this in this purpose?
Right? That they commit theirlives, their lives their life to
it, you know? Yeah. And so like,take any of that and apply it to
modern day, that's the samething we're doing right. We're
(25:24):
all, you know, theoretically,let's say we're free agents,
right. But we can get reallyinto that, because it can get
super complicated super quickly,because, you know, conditions
circumstances, of course, theseare all things of life, right.
But let's say on the theory thatwe're all free agents,
technically, right? We're all weall can do and believe whatever
we want, you know, yeah. And soat the end of the day, right,
(25:48):
what are your beliefs? Like?
What is the thing that drivesyou? It's the same thing of
like, if you believe thatthere's a binary, well, then I
don't know where to go withthat. You know, what I mean?
Like, whereas to me, like, Yes,I believe, you know, that, or
Oh, no, not really, Iunderstand, right? that most
(26:10):
people are going to function offof a binary, but also, it's
because that is what most peoplehave been given as a tool for
understanding, right? Or we weretold that right? Or we were
colonized, to think that, youknow, because if you look
further back on histories, andlike histories of people of
(26:30):
color, right, and let's be realspecific, I'd say this is more
American, I can't speak foranyone else. Because born and
raised here, you know, this iswhere I grew up, you know, what
I mean? So it's like, thedynamics of the culture that I'm
speaking on is like experienceshere and in America, you know?
And so it's like, yeah, thisidea of like, you know,
binaries, and, you know,Christianity being like, the
(26:54):
primary religion, and like, thisidea of like, a god. I mean,
it's been, it's in our thing of,like, you know, one nation under
God, you know, like, doeseverybody believe that? I don't
know, but, you know, it's there.
And it's just, it really goesback to like, Who ever had the
power at the time? And even ifyou look back on that, like, who
(27:15):
made and wrote these things, youknow, not not us, not us, the
people of color, people of coloralso had no voice when these
things were being made. So it'sjust like, you know, context is
important. Yeah, you know, andit's like, I think, context is
(27:36):
important in the belief, shapingand forming, you know, because
it's like, if, sure you canbelieve something, but Okay, put
that belief into play in thecontext of your, you know, what
you're living, how you'reacting, right. Is it still in
line? You know, yeah, withwhatever that belief is, and
(27:58):
then that can get reallycomplicated. But, you know, that
that's, that's, that's how Ilook at things essentially,
right? Like, what is it at theend of the day, that I believe
in? Right, and then I act fromthere, you know? And so like,
(28:19):
this is simple, but sure, thebinary like, that's the binary,
okay. Like, like, this is stuffthat we were told and taught,
and it was a way to try andcontrol us, you know, yeah. And
so it's like, do y agree andunderstand the need for it, I
understand the need that peoplehave, because people are also
(28:39):
just trying to figure out, youknow, things and most people are
functioning from this or thatplace, right? And I'm not just
talking about gender, right?
Most people live in a very,like, this is the same thing,
like how people live in a blackand white world, right? Yeah,
everything is either this orthat. Right? The binary is just
another version of the the blackand white thought, right?
Everything is this or that it'sus or them, right? And it's just
(29:02):
like, I can't agree with y'all.
And also what a what a bleakplace to live in that you only
think there are two options toeverything, you know.
Yeah, seriously. And I think Ireally think that that goes back
to again, you're seeing like onenation under God like this is
say anything that you want aboutyou know, religious freedom,
(29:25):
First Amendment, all that stuff.
The fact of the matter is, thepeople who started this country
and the people who havecontinuously held power for the
entire duration of America beingAmerica have been Christian. And
I really do think that you know,the two non Christian presidents
we've ever had, were Catholic,like, Come on, get out of here
(29:48):
like that's still Christianity.
At the end of day you stillbelieve asis, Jesus Christ as
your Savior and all thesethings. Yeah. But I really I've
been thinking about this a lot.
How Religion shapes culture. AndI really think that this binary
because it drives I totallyagree with you. And I can't
(30:08):
stand this constant, you know,everything is this or that
everything is so binary. And Ithink that if you really take a
step back and examine why it'sso hard for Pete, for most
people to get out of that, andwhy we're so easily conditioned
into believing that is, becausewhether you are a Christian or
(30:29):
not, we did grow up in thiscountry that was led and run,
and all of its policies wereshaped in all of its culture was
shaped around the idea ofChristianity. And Christianity,
more or less does preach like avery binary based way of looking
at the world. Everything iseither good or bad. It's either
(30:51):
Christ like or it's devil, like,you're either going to heaven or
you're going to hell, there isone God, there is one way, so
you either believe it or youdon't. And there's no room for
gray area. And I and again, evenif you're even if you don't
believe in Christianity,personally, you're still
affected by growing up in thisenvironment, where all of the
(31:14):
policies, all the dishes,everything is based around this
understanding of how theuniverse works. And I, yeah,
we were stuck. Right with withwhat it is right, just because
of where we are, you know,physically and also the time and
(31:34):
space, right, like, everythingyou said that you're stuck with
these ideas is because that iswhat we were functioning from
that is what we were taught inschools, that is what we are
taught in workplaces, like thatis just as a whole what the
majority of people think. Andalso, that is what is presented
to us in media. Right. Yeah.
Which is huge. And I'd say that,in ways media is more powerful
(31:57):
than education in this country,let's say because not everyone,
unfortunately, not everyone'saccess to education is the same.
Right? Right. But but mostpeople's access to the TV, or to
movies is about the same, youknow, oh, that's
(32:19):
a good point. I never thoughtabout it that way. You're
totally right. Yeah,there's, there's money involved.
There's class involved. There'sall kinds of things involved in
terms of education and likethat, like, don't get me you
know, don't get it twisted,though. I truly believe that
knowledge is still power, youknow, like I like as cheesy and
whatever, they talk to you aboutthat? I think it's true, right?
Because knowledge andinformation, like education can
(32:40):
still take you a long way. It'salso how we are able to, you
know, be able to think aboutthings in different ways. Right?
You got to learn how to learnfor sure, yes, or unlearn. Okay,
more importantly, yeah.
Right. If there's a distinctionof like, here's what has been
said to me, what do I want tolearn? What things do I need to
unlearn? You know, yeah, um, butbut that's the thing, right? If
(33:04):
we're talking about education,and, and, you know, access to
information, there's still abunch of like, barriers to that,
because not everyone, you know,can afford college, not everyone
can afford private schools, noteveryone can afford, like, the
quality and the type of, ofeducation that we all get is so
varied, you know, and then evenif we talk about, like, people
(33:25):
who come here to immigrate here,you know, school systems and
education around the world isalso very different. You know,
so it's like, there's no like,way to really say that we're all
starting from the same thing,because we're not, but you know,
why is there more barriers toeducation than there are to
like, media and entertainment.
Right? Right. So at the end ofthe day, who really is teaching
(33:48):
us media is, you know, thethings that we think we're being
entertained by, yes, we areusing it and viewing it as
entertainment. But how manypeople are going to, you know,
use that as the example. And asthe thing of like, well, I saw,
you know, in this movie, thatthis is, you know, what they
said about a group of people orlike, you know, and whether they
(34:10):
consciously know that right, butthe way you saw how these people
were treated in this series isis is what you're going to form
your your thought and opinionabout these people, or about
this situation or about, youknow, whatever, you know,
Allie, you're blowing my mind. Ihaven't thought about this at
all. And it really, it reallygoes to show to why. Why it's so
(34:34):
exciting that the barriers tocreating and sharing media have
calmed down. And yes, it becauseit you know, we've always known
that media is a big part ofculture, but culture and
education are so intertwinedlike we are influenced by what
we see by what we hear andthere's so much more of that
(34:56):
coming from media than there isfrom you know, Traditional
institutional education. Yes. SoSo us being I mean, us even
being able to have thisconversation and put it out in
the world, even if it affects,you know, just one person,
that's one person that would nothave had exposure to these
(35:16):
kinds, I mean, shit, it'salready affecting me. You know,
one person, I am that person, itis me. Yeah, but seriously, it's
like, That's why, you know,I've, I have felt that it's so
important to have representationand for me to put myself out
there and for me to not justslip away into being stealth,
(35:40):
and just live in the privilegeof being recognized by most
people. You know, judging a bookby its cover, most people see me
as a cisgender. Man, even thoughI'm not even though I was
assigned female at birth. And tome, it's always been really,
always in the three years thatI've, since I've been out in
transitioning, but I, I've neverreally wavered from this idea
(36:03):
of, you know, obviously, incertain situations around
strangers, I'm not always gonnabe like, Hi, I'm Leo, and I'm
transgender. But for the mostpart, just my, I had to have my
public persona out there beingvery out, making sure that the
the Tanzanian flag is visible asoften as possible you to do all
these things, because that ispart of influencing the greater
(36:26):
world and to be like, hey, it'snot just this one way of
thinking, it's not just this oneway of entertaining, it's not
just this one way of viewing theworld. There are other ideas out
there. And hopefully, over time,we're able to, you know, very
slowly but surely, you know,change those waves of history,
because history does repeat.
It's more like a ferris wheelthan a roller coaster. And when
(36:48):
we really look at what the humancondition is, and and kind of
where we fall into that we cankind of then choose, do we want
to stick in this one box? Or dowe do we want to change because
I mean, that's what I saw with,with, you know, education and
the, you know, the people talkabout like the school to prison
(37:09):
pipeline, there's also just likethe school to factory pipeline,
like school, traditional schoolisn't really teaching you how to
think it's, it's, it's teachingyou how to be a good employee
that doesn't talk back to yourboss, who just does your job.
And, and I saw that for what itwas, it was, you know, and I'm
doing everything in my power tonot just be a cog in that kind
(37:31):
of machine. But a lot of how Ihave come to understand that
hasn't been what I learned inschool, none of that was what I
learned in school, it was what Ilearned from the media that I
sought out, that offered me adifferent way of viewing the
world, whether it was a book,whether it was some influential
(37:52):
No, you're no matter what itwas, you know, a movie Music
Music was a large part of it forme, and I think it's a large
part of it for a lot of people.
But yeah, I mean, that's whyit's so exciting. When we say
it's exciting, that we havethese opportunities, it's
because we get to be part ofthat new education in the world.
(38:15):
I mean, whether we want to saythis is new or not, you know, I
think this is something thatpeople have done throughout
history, right? You always havepeople who were seen as
outsiders or like crazy, or, youknow, literally, this is the
basis of witches, right? This isbecause that's, that's why
people came to think of whatwitches were just like powerful
women, it's like, we must takethem down. Like even That in
(38:38):
itself. Okay, y'all, that is,like, people who thought
differently, is not somethingnew. Right. And also people
wanting to censor, and andcontrol and to, you know, also,
in some unfortunate ways,literally take out those voices.
Right. That is also not new.
Yeah. You know, but I think ifwe look at now versus then, you
(39:01):
know, hopefully we all know alittle bit better as, as a as a
race of people. Right, butbetter is relative. But you
know, in terms of like theaccess, right? We do have more
access in that way. Technologyis great, right? Because, and
there's and there's lessbarriers, like literally anyone
can put out whatever they want,you know, but also there's that
(39:25):
right? Everyone can and somepeople really do. And then but
here's the thing, people arealso still spewing their hate
stuff out there. Right? Yeah,people are still putting that
out, you know, and, and, and soit's like, those are the things
that don't change, but at leastwe all kind of have chances to,
you know, share our voices andput them out there, you know,
(39:47):
because I think everything atthe end of the day comes out to
balance right? And a lot of mythinking of why you know, I
would and this is also the backto what you said about like, you
know, you're not going to meeteverybody you say, Hey, I'm
Leon, I'm a trans man, you know,like, right, not necessary in
most situations. And also, atthe end of the day, we need to
(40:07):
talk about safety. Right?
Because that is also ultimatelyfor me what I choose, right,
based on whatever interactionlike you want to be safe. Yeah.
Because also the world is crazystill. But you know, but we, we
can also do things like this,right? where it's like, you
know, we can put our voices, wecan share our stories
authentically, in ways that, youknow, it just wasn't before and
(40:30):
like, you know, I was alwayslooking and seeking myself and
representation in ways, right, Iwas looking for the movies that
had a TV shows, whatever books,you know, comics, you know, and
it's like, I'm, like, I can't bethe only one right looking. So
there's, like, that's the thing,people are also looking for
themselves, right? Whether they,you know, want to, for to
(40:53):
understand themselves better, orto feel like, you know, I'm not
alone, I feel like at the end ofthe day, that's what it is.
Right? Like, we see others andwe see community and, you know,
as people in ways we need, we'resocial beings, right? level of
social will vary, okay, I getthat. Like, there's introverts,
extroverts are a whole notherthing, but you know, in ways,
(41:14):
you know, we are social beingsas people, and we want to find
others like this, because wewant to, you know, have feel
understood, right, feel lesslonely. And so I think, you
know, media really is a greatplace for that. But, you know,
we, we still have a lot of workto do, right? Because if we look
(41:34):
at stats, and if we look at allthese other things, like, you
know, glad releases the reportevery year about, you know,
representation and media, andit's just like, man, looking at
those numbers, year after year.
It's, it's just like, I mean,I'm glad that the numbers go up
for Asians, right. But, but, butbut it's still so insignificant,
(41:55):
you know, compared to otherthings, but, you know, maybe
maybe this is what it is, right?
We're at that kind of it feelslike, that's where we're headed.
Right? as the largest communityand that, you know, there's more
pressure Now, on the industry,and in Hollywood, right, who
(42:17):
really is like a major factor inthis, you know, um, and, you
know, there's more, there's morereally cool stuff that's coming
out, you know, like, I mean, letme tell you animated series,
right, is really where it's atright now, like, the gays are
(42:37):
winning there. Yeah.
Like, and I just like watchingthese like, series that are
like, you know, made for kids orwhatever, but I'm just like,
wow, wow, well, well, well, I'msorry, you're holding hands with
your girlfriend. And you arealso a girl like what? Or like,
you know, like, there's likepeople who just have like,
crushes on everyone. And like,you know, they don't think twice
(43:00):
P. Okay. There are charactersthat use they them pronouns in
there. And I'm just like, excuseme, and everyone in this world
doesn't question it. They just,they just carry on and use the
correct pronouns. Like, wow,what a time What up? Yes.
Seriously, it's like it kidseries can get this. It's just
like, okay, yeah.
Well, also, if a kid series isdoing that, that is shaping the
(43:22):
next generation to be more openminded. And to you know, really,
because I think what I, you'reright, the numbers still don't
look great. But I think I'm, Ifeel like I'm seeing the
potential, it's like, I see thatwe're just getting started in
this new wave. People who havealways, you know, kind of made
their voices heard or beendifferent, you're right, they're
(43:42):
not new, but the quickness andthe way that they're able to get
their voices out to the massesas a whole, as opposed to just
being in some underground, orimmediately being, you know,
thrown in jail or thrown intothe lake with a fucking anchor
(44:05):
tied to them in like in a witchhunt. Like, these, these things
are not happening. And so whenyou see that, even that little
bit of representation is goingto change things for the next
generation. It's like we are,you know, when you're in a
revolution, you kind of have tounderstand that you're not going
to live to see the results. Andwe're kind of you were putting
(44:27):
down this groundwork where, youknow, 234 generations from now,
these things that we're talkingabout, just being on the
precipice of are probably thingsthat are going to be taken for
granted, hopefully, anyway, Imean, cuz that's the other
thing. It's like, it can reallygo in either direction. Like you
said, we came real close tohaving a holocaust. So it's like
(44:48):
we but the more that we putourselves out there, the more
that we do that work, and themore that we find ways to do it
in ways that keep us safe, themore of a chance there is for
things to keep bending in In thedirection towards, honestly just
freedom from all these binaries,because I don't I don't know
that they really do anyone anyfavors. Yeah, it makes things
(45:09):
simpler because that's how howwe're taught to believe things.
But I remember hearing a transactivists saying that the
existence of trans women inwomen's spaces, f helps to
reject the notion that women'srole is just to be a baby making
(45:29):
machine. You know, it's likethese these binaries, they trap
everybody. And so, to be able tofree ourselves from that, you
know, that's, it's a beautifulthing. Like, I love to see it
because I feel like I've, I'velived in the, you know, like,
I'm biracial, black and white,I'm, you know, transgender, I
have lived experience in the twolike, binary genders that we've
(45:52):
set up. And it's like, I feellike I have this bird's eye view
to be like, it's all bullshit.
Like, life is so much better inthe gray area, I used to joke
people would ask me what I wasraised by as in high school, I'd
say I'm gray, because I'm black.
And I'm white, you know? Andblack or white makes great, but
it's true. It's like, there's sothere's so much beauty in that
gray area. And there's so muchmore potential for human growth
(46:15):
and expansion and all the thingsbut you know, it, but isn't,
they have a long way to go.
Great in ways, though. And Ithink I mean, that's, I mean,
okay, speaking about queerexperience, speaking about, you
know, multicultural, like youjust shared, right? If you were
not these things, can youimagine what your point of view
(46:37):
with the world would be?
I can't, I literally can't, Ihave no idea because you're
right, all of all of the waythat I see the world, I see. So
clearly now how much my lifeexperience shapes, my beliefs.
And that's true for everybody,you know, even people who are in
the like, queue and on circlesand stuff like that. I'm like, I
(46:58):
vehemently disagree with you.
But at the end of the day, Iunderstand how you got to where
you're at, you know, like,right, which is unfortunate,
but, and scary. But, you know,it's just, we're all people
living in this world based offour experiences, and all I can
do is make my experience moreknown so that other people like
(47:19):
me, feel empowered to also, youknow, make their voice heard and
make their difference inwhatever their corner of the
world is, in whatever industry,they work in whatever the case
may be.
Right. And I think, you know,quick thought on that, right?
Because you mentioned purposeand things like that, you know,
even soul right as the movie,the Disney movie, so yeah, its
(47:42):
whole thing was like all thishype around, you gotta find your
purpose, and you got to knowwhat you know, you're living
for, and bla bla bla, but at theend of the day spoiler for those
who haven't watched it, but, um,you know, at the end of the day,
the message wasn't find yourpurpose, right? The meaning of
life was just to live and toexperience it, you know, and I
think that was brilliant.
Because in ways that takes off,like this crazy pressure that
(48:04):
gets put on us as people tolike, you have to have a
purpose, like you need to findyour life purpose you need to be
doing, you know, whatever yourthing is that you were here on
earth to do. Right. But, youknow, why isn't existing? The
purpose, right? Because, even,you know, if we look at the end
(48:25):
of the day, the fact that weexist, the fact that we go out,
and we navigate the world, thefact that we interact, we are
also changing the world thatway. Yeah. You know, like, if
people if we didn't interactwith people, where else would
they get some information?
right? Exactly. And that's thething I think about, like, it's
great to be, you know, in yourbubbles, find your community, of
course, right. Like, that isimportant, but also, it's like,
(48:47):
it's the work outside of there,right? Like when we enter
spaces, and when we interact,like, the fact that we exist as
we are and we and we feel safeenough and authentic enough to
to share that with others. Likethat's the things that really
changes thoughts, right. 100that's really what gets people
really like thinking and couldpotentially at the end of the
(49:07):
day, change a belief. Yeah. Andso it's just like, why, you
know, like, I get the wholepurpose thing and all that but
you know, for people who justwant to exist, why can't people
also just exist because noteveryone also has that luxury,
right? Because if we talk aboutbeing closeted, you know, things
(49:27):
like that or like having to hideparts of who you are. Right at
the end of the day. The factthat we can exist out loud is
also big. Yeah. Which is whatsome people are still struggling
to just do so it's like knowwhat so you got to put you know,
you got a point there, just,just just living life as as you
you know, feel is best for you,you know, whatever that is.
(49:49):
Exactly. I love that and that isyou know what, Disney is a big
part of the the beginningblossoming of our friendship,
and we are just about out oftime, I think I think that's a
perfect place to end. We've See,we didn't talk about fucking
anything that I said, I think Isaid initially that I wanted to
(50:10):
talk about, we mentioned alittle NAS x. And we just went
on all these tangents. I loveit. I mean, this was, this was
great. I really enjoyed thisconversation. And I appreciate
you because again, I think thatthis conversation really helps
exemplify and articulate a lotof what I mean, when I say that,
(50:32):
I see that the world ischanging. So thank you for
participating in this in thisdiscourse with me, it was great.
I sure appreciate it as well.
Anytime This is feels like whatwe would have talked about on
any other occasion. SoOh, for sure. We finally record
that we've been talking for awhile and a lot of this has been
interesting. It would have beenplenty good for the podcast.
(50:52):
Yeah. is great. Perhaps just tostart? Yeah, yeah. Let's see.
Let's look maybe this will belike an ongoing series. I love
it. dives into Disney. Yes. Yes.
taught me about life. Oh, yo.
millennial than that. I love ittruly. From queer people's
perspective,okay. Oh, yeah. Hell yeah. I'm
(51:15):
all for it. I yeah. Okay. Well,we'll talk about that. Yes, sir.
Is there anything you'd like topromote? No. Don't find me Don't
look for me.
was like so quick and so easy.
It's like, No, I'm, I mean, Ijust am not on social media as
(51:40):
much as there's really not muchthere right now. No, I will say
I am, you know, at the precipiceof a of a, you know, getting
back into the game and creatingmore. And so, if you want at
least Santos, it's my handle foreverything. Great, but don't
expect too much, y'all. Okay.
(52:01):
Taking abreak. Now that expectations
have been appropriately tapered,no one, no one at how you sent
us if you are dissatisfied withthe lack of content. All right,
Allie, thankme on a post. It's fine. You
know, I'll just read throughyour
account. I mean, I'll definitelytag you in any posts about this
(52:22):
episode. So that is post show.
All right. Allie, thank you somuch. This has been great. I
will hopefully talk to you verysoon.
I'm sure man. All right. Takecare.
See ya.
All right. Once again, that wasalley Santos. alley, we got to
(52:46):
get this Disney from a careerperspective, web show series,
whatever. We got to make thishappen. Cash when I listened
back, and I heard that I waslike, Oh, yeah, yeah, we got to
do that. So stay tuned, folks.
We'll figure out how to makethat happen. And hey, if you
enjoyed what you heard, pleaseconsider giving us a five star
rating review, especially onApple. It is like currency. It
(53:09):
helps us get to more people.
Make this your Instagram story.
Take a screenshot of the podcastposted on your Instagram story.
You can tag me at Leo Yockey.
That's LEYOCKY. And let me knowif there's someone that you
think I should be interviewingfor this show. I had a couple of
(53:32):
suggestions come up. And I'vescheduled at least one interview
now. So I'm really lookingforward to upcoming shows. This
whole this whole project hasjust been a blast so far. So
thank you for being on thisjourney with me. Have a great
week. I'll be back next weekwith another one of my tech
friends should be great. Stay athome.
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