August 3, 2021 • 44 mins
Leo meets with guest Valerie Phoenix to discuss how her lifelong history or service-oriented leadership led her to start Tech By Choice. They also talk about the surprising ways in which her nontechnical degrees have helped her in tech, and how our relationship with money evolves over time.
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By: Leo Yockey
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:15):
Hello, and welcome to anotherepisode of the Leo Yockey show,
the show where I Leo Yockeyinterview guests about how their
unique life path led them todefine success and fulfillment.
The goal is to provide you thelistener some relief for your
existential dread. Here's thesecret. It's all about asking
(00:35):
questions. Seriously, have youseen those memes that are going
around that are like, do I likehim? Or does he just text
regularly? They're they'repopular because they speak to a
universal truth, right?
Oftentimes, when we're facingproblems, or we don't know what
to do, it's not that we don'thave the answer. It's that we're
(00:56):
not asking the right questionsto get to those answers. I
really believe that if we frameour past in the right way, and
we ask the right questions, andwe connect the right dots, we'll
find that how we got to wherewe're at, is part of a whole
story. And when we see wherewe're at in that story, where we
(01:17):
see where our current chapterends, there's only so many ways
that the next chapter could go,that would make sense, right?
And that talks about a littlebit last week with Murphy, and
how if he hadn't had experiencewith digital advertising and
music, maybe it wouldn't havemade sense for him to strike out
on his own as a musician, and itwouldn't have felt right.
(01:38):
Anyway, that's what I get intowith today's guest, Valerie
Phoenix. She is the founder oftech by choice, a great
organization that I'll let hertalk about in the interview. And
watch how, just by asking theright questions, we get to kind
of unpack how she got to whereshe's at. and really make sense
(01:59):
of where her values fit intowhat she does for a living. I
think it's all really cool. Buthey, if you've been enjoying
this show, you know, thank you,for your support, continue to
leave your five star rating andreviews spent anywhere, but
especially on Apple, it makes ahuge difference. You know, we're
(02:20):
still ranking internationally.
And you know, a lot more peoplehave been reaching out to me
directly to tell me what youlike about the show that you
believe in it. You know, thankyou so much. It all really means
a lot to me. So, yeah, let's getstarted with today's show. Here
is Valerie Phoenix.
(02:52):
Hey, Valerie, how's it going?
How you doing?
I'm doing good. Excited to behere to chat with you.
Yeah, me too. I don't know ifeither of us are as excited as
your dog. Yeah, hopefully we canmaintain that level of
excitement. In case that guyedited out, Valerie's dog is
barking we may be hearing fromthem. And and it's all good.
(03:13):
It's all great. I love it. Yeah.
I'm gonna just dive right intoit. Because I feel like we're
gonna end up having a lot tocover. And I don't want to take
over your entire afternoon. Socan you tell me I guess we'll
we'll tackle kind of both thingsseparately. So can you tell me
first? What you do for your Iguess we'll call it day job. For
(03:35):
the sake of this this context,this conversation?
Yeah, so right now I'm aengineering manager for a mental
health tech startup. And so myday I like to tell people, I'm
focused on creating environmentsthat make it easier for people I
work with to get work done. Andjust like thinking ahead, and
(03:56):
strategizing, and having fundoing that, and I don't know,
did I say interviewing people?
I'm constantly in interviewingin that that's a lot less
meetings.
Nice, nice. I see already. I'mlike, Oh, this is really
interesting. Because I thinkyou're the first person that
I've ever talked to who's in amanagerial position, where the
(04:19):
very first thing that you sayabout what you do and what your
core duties are, is, I forgetyour exact phrase, I'm already
going to butcher it. But yousaid something about making the
work environment easier orbetter or more comfortable for
the people that are workingunder you. So I think it's very
interesting that you have such aservice oriented way of looking
(04:41):
at your job that I wish moremanagers had.
Yeah, I've been told I'm uniquein my leadership style a few
times. Sothat's very interesting. And so
to that point, can you tell usalso about the nonprofit that
you founded?
Yeah, so I started tech bychoice about two years ago now.
(05:04):
And so our mission is to makesure that underrepresented
groups can enter stay and thrivein tech. And we do it from a
very non trivial way. Because weknow working with all
underrepresented groups, we haveto focus on the barriers that
they face. So just just liketechnical literacy, financial
(05:26):
literacy, things around, likemental health, are all things
that we tackle on top of like,the professional development, so
lots of lots of moving pieces,but we've been able to build a
really great community. So it'sall worth it.
Yeah, definitely. And I like youalready got right into to the
three key pillars of tech bychoice as, as it says on the
(05:48):
website, which is enter, stayand thrive. And I and I love
that because I feel like in alot of places where they talk
about the importance ofdiversity and inclusion, a lot
of the focus is on that firstpillar enter, right, you know,
we got to get our numbers of wehave to have more diversity, how
we have to recruit more diversepeople. And those other pieces,
(06:09):
I feel like you might see alittle bit of it with this day,
which which you kind of touchedon already is kind of the mental
health piece and financialliteracy and, and kind of, for
lack of a better term kind ofjust getting people settled in,
but then thrive, can you kind ofcan you just kind of speak a
little bit to what that thirdpillar is? Because I feel like,
in my opinion, at least in whatin what little I've seen, I feel
(06:31):
like that is a piece that isoften really missing, especially
from diversity drivenorganizations that aren't
necessarily community driven, orlike run by the community, I
should say,yeah, so that that part is
something that is alwayschanging. I always say like, Oh,
we can thrive right now in thiscurrent times, by doing XYZ
(06:53):
thing, and that's supporting thecommunity or like, work
situation, we can have thisinterview process that is very,
reduces a lot of bias is verysupportive. But that can change,
right? So like with COVID, whenCOVID hit, people started to
rethink the way that they did alot of things because we were
(07:14):
experiencing all the burnout,people were just like high
levels of stress, people aren'table to focus and then you had
the flip side of it were inorder to like zone out and like
have some feeling of peacepeople were overworking. So to
them, for them to thrive. Theyneeded freedom to just work non
(07:34):
stop until it's time to like eatsleep, wake up, do it again.
Yeah, so to me, because thriveis always changing. In order for
us like as tech by choice as anorganization to help people
thrive, we always have tounderstand what's going on with
our community, we can't getturned into one of those orgs
(07:54):
that are very high level verytop down. Because we'll never
understand what it means for ourmembers to thrive for as far as
like programming. And what Ithink that looks like, to me
thriving means that even ifyou're unhappy with the job that
you currently have, you know,have a game plan, you have like
(08:15):
that, that side hustle to keepyou going. You have all the
resources that you need to takewhatever the next step is, we
don't have that kind of likelost feeling of, well, what do I
do now that I'm here? How do Iget my next promotion? Should I
change jobs? Like just beingable to drive means that you can
(08:38):
have those questions, but youknow, where to redirect them?
And where to ask them and thingslike that?
Yeah, I think that's reallypowerful. For sure. Because the
idea that we're, you know, insome perfect world where most
people enjoy their job isobviously not reality. And I
(09:02):
really like that concept of evenif you don't like your job, you
know, you kind of haveresources, you know that there's
a way out, basically, and youcan kind of get a game plan and
you're supported in that, youknow, for the listeners,
especially like, Can you can youspeak to times, you know, pre
tech by choice in your owncareer where you didn't have
that, like, I guess set anotherway? Did you worry at any point
(09:26):
that you weren't going to beable to stay and thrive in the
tech industry?
Um, I feel like you type bychoices. 100% sure. I felt that
a number of times, even posttech by choice. So we won't get
into the post not yet. But Idefinitely started now it was
(09:46):
really hard for me. I jumpedinto tech without even really
knowing what tech was it didn'tknow what girls are out there.
All I knew was I needed money. Ineeded a better job. And Google
told me both developers makeLots of money. So that's what I
did. I think there's a couplelike pivotal moments where I'm
just like, this is not for me. Iwas really excited when I found
(10:10):
out about meetup. I didn't knowwhat meetup was, I didn't
understand any of that concept.
And I learned about it through apodcast that I was listening to,
to figure out what tech was. AndI went to one meetup, it was
really great, very supportive.
And I thought, okay, everythingon this website is going to be
like this. went to anothercommunity event, I should say
(10:33):
that the first event I went towas focused on like women in
code, learning how to code. Andthe second event I went to was a
boot camp that was just gettingstarted in LA. And there, they
were moreso focused on preppingpeople to get into their boot
camp. It was in downtown LA, itwas not in a nicer part of
(10:59):
downtown either. It was atnight, and parking was super far
away. So one, I was terrified toeven walk to the location. When
I got there. It's just men, Iwas the only female. And they
were mostly white men. And theywere very tech bro ish type
people. But I didn't know thosered flags. And so the activity
(11:20):
hat, we had to do pairprogramming. And so I was paired
with. I was doing the coding,and the other person was telling
me what to do. And I rememberthe guy coming up to me who's
leading the event saying like,Well, why aren't you talking?
It's because you're a girl,right? You're afraid to speak,
wow, and talk here. And it wasabout I think it was a callback
(11:42):
luncheon. That's what they weretrying to teach us. And it was
the first time I've ever heardabout anything like that. And I
remember thinking like, I don'tknow what to do, or what to say
to this person. I don't get it.
I'mjust just for listeners who are
not into tech, because thisisn't just a tech audience. a
callback function is prettyadvanced for a one hour session
(12:03):
geared towards people with zeroprogramming experience.
Yeah, yeah. Like I remember justno one getting it. I think it
took me probably like a year ortwo to be in tech to understand
what a callback function is.
Yeah. But I remember thinking,the guy telling me since I was
talking that I needed to switchspots for the person I was pair
(12:24):
programming with. And so the guystarted to do all the typing.
And then I was talking himthrough what to do. And I
remember the guy just comingback and saying, like, yeah,
you're not going to get this,you're not getting this, you
have to do this, just reallyredirecting and trying to
correct me in that process. AndI remember I just got up and
like, laughs, I remember goingto my car, like in tears saying,
(12:47):
like, never do this, I'll neverbe a part of tech, like, I'll
never figure out this JavaScriptstuff. And I think that was a
key moment to me to realize thatcommunity can really tear you
down. Like, I had to be veryselective with what I decided to
put myself in an environmentthat I was going to be around.
(13:09):
And I think that's, that helpedme understand it, how to create
environments, whether it be atwork, or for tech by choice,
that will really make peoplefeel good about even making a
mistake. Like that whole processof learning this function, or
this, this code that made nosense to me. There was no safe
(13:30):
rows, there is no like, this ishow you ease into this. And it
was just very harsh. I thinkthat's like the complete
opposite of like, how I vieweverything now.
Yeah, yeah, I think that'sreally powerful. We this this
topic actually comes up a lot onthe podcast of, you know, who
(13:51):
you surround yourself with, thatreally matters, it really can,
like make or break you becauseyou had this amazing first
experience was thank God, you atleast had that first experience
with the with the meetup thatwas geared more towards women,
so at least you at least somepart of you knew like, well, I
guess it can't all be bad.
Because imagine if that thatfirst experience was your first
ever experience. And until youknow, because you're brand new,
(14:16):
you're just you know, dippingyour toe in to see if you like
this, if that had been yourfirst ever experience. You know,
you looked up web development onon Google, you know, there's so
much about the industry thatboth you and I know now that you
didn't know, then, I mean, thatcould have been enough for you
to walk away from it forever.
(14:36):
And I don't know I think that'sjust man. That's that's really,
I mean, what's upsetting aboutit is how not surprising most of
that story is, you know what Imean? Like it's so It's so
typical for the industry. And soand as a result, it is so much
more important to kind of knowwho your people are and to be
(14:59):
able to find People that thatyou can trust and who aren't
going to like, you know, justassume like, oh, you're not
talking much is it becauseyou're a woman like, Damn, dude,
maybe maybe I'm not talking muchbecause I'm brand new. And
you're pressuring us to do abunch of stuff that unbeknownst
to me is probably too advancedfor any of us in this room
Anyway, you know what I mean?
And those those, you know, thosebiases that are sometimes either
(15:22):
conscious or unconscious, youknow, if though, if you were a
white man, he might have been alittle bit more forgiving. And I
would even say, for you nottalking, he would be like, oh,
wow, you remind me of MarkZuckerberg, you know, like,
really annoying, doublestandard. But anyway, sorry,
that's my, that's my tangentabout that. But, uh, preaching
(15:43):
to the choir here, obviously.
So, so you touched on somethingthat I kind of wanted to talk
about, which is that youinitially got into web
development, because you neededmore money. You know, you did
some Google searches, and yourealize that web development is
something that makes a lot ofmoney. And probably, I'm
(16:05):
assuming from that Googlesearch, you also kind of figured
out that you could be selftaught, you know, you didn't
necessarily have to go back tocollege or anything like that.
You got an attack because of themoney. Has that changed at all?
Since being in tech by choice?
Or since tech by choices hasgrown? Do you still feel like
money? Is the main, you know,like motivating force keep
keeping you in this industry? Ordo you feel like now that you're
(16:29):
kind of helping people not haveto go through what you went
through, that you you enjoy theprocess more of being in tech.
Now, money is still the drivingfactor. So but it's, it's the
driving factor for differentreasons now. So when I was when
(16:52):
I was first trying to get intotech, it was for survival. Like
I would not, I think I I was100% living paycheck to
paycheck. But I think it waseven less than that. Because I
was living paycheck plus maxingout multiple credit cards just
to make it. So that first I wantto say here it was survival. And
(17:15):
then like, once I realized,okay, like, I'm in an OK, space,
no longer living paycheck topaycheck. I may have like a few
extra dollars a month, like nowI can rethink about what it
means to work in tech. And I canrethink what my relationship is
to money. And when I started torethink those things, I
(17:36):
realized, Oh, I'm just here formoney. But because it's I'm
here, because of the access atthis money can get in. I know, I
went when I was in college, Ithought the only way I'll ever
be able to travel in my life isif I do study if I study abroad.
And then I want to stay after ayear of being in tech, I went
(17:57):
on, I got on my first plane. AndI left the state by myself. And
I went to a conference. I'mlike, Okay, I'm gonna stay here
for the opportunities, becausenow I have money. And I can go
to these work related events,and my job will pay for it. I'm
like, why would I ever leave? Soturn into opportunity. And then
when I started looking at lunchin tech, by choice and start
(18:20):
started really working with thecommunity, I'm like, Well, if I
had more money, and more accessto that money, our bigger
network or a network who had, ifI can connect to one person who
had more connections, I couldthen give other people that
opportunity to make that choicethemselves. So I'm just like,
okay, so money is always afactor of why I'm here. But the
(18:46):
depth of what that means tendsto change me like about like,
every two, three years. But Ithink what the one thing that
always pops up in my head when Ihit the rough spots for tech,
and I'm questioning if I shouldbe here, or if I should stay.
One thing that keeps me here ismoney. Because I realize I'm a
black woman, and for most of theyear I where we're fro, like, I
(19:11):
tend to voice my opinion. If Idon't voice it, my face shows it
sound like I'm going to betreated like crap. anywhere I
go, it doesn't matter whatindustry I'm in, I'm going to
always be considered secondclass, or I'm not going to use a
be deemed highly skilled off offirst glance. So I'm like, why
(19:31):
would I remove the money tostill be treated, mistreated? So
I'm just like, always stay forthe money just for that.
Yeah, I think that totally makessense. I mean, I was telling you
before we started recording, youknow, as we were kind of like
talking about like different,different things that that mean,
or how success means differentthings for different people. You
(19:53):
know, there's people that I'veinterviewed on this podcast
where, you know, their job isliterally just there. job and
you know what really brings themjoy and fulfillment are like
things that they get to dooutside of work. And the main
benefit to their job is thatthey don't have to constantly
think about whether or not theyneed to go somewhere else every
(20:13):
six months or whatever. And thatpart might not necessarily be
the case for you, I don't know.
But it is really interesting.
Because you keep you actuallybrought up this concept in two
different places, of kind of rere examining things re examining
both how and why you're doingthings, you brought it up, and
we were talking about thrive intech by choice, you're saying
(20:36):
that what people need to be ableto thrive in the tech industry,
as an underrepresented andunderestimated individual is,
you know, you know, what, whatpeople need is going to
constantly change, and you wantto have like, a bottom up
approach to always, you know, bebe being able to always respond
to what people need, and you'retaking that same mentality, and
(20:59):
you're applying it to your lifetoo. And you're looking at, you
know, initially it was, I justneed to not constantly be in
debt and be able to survive. Andthat was all you're focused on.
Right? Because that's just whereyou were at, you know, and then
you got past that point. And yousaid, Okay, I'm not at this
point anymore. I'm not justsurviving. What do I actually
(21:19):
want to need, you know, and youknew that you would want to
travel or I'm not sure if youknew you always want to travel.
But like you, you did not thinkthat traveling would necessarily
be an option for you. And youlooked around, you're like,
wait, that's not true anymore. Ican't travel and, and so you're
able to kind of do more stuff,and constantly reevaluate what,
(21:41):
what you want. And I think that,even though Yeah, like,
technically, you're intact, justfor the money, but the fact that
like, you're constantly kind oflike leveling up and seeing what
you can do, both for yourcommunity and for yourself, I
think I think that's reallycool. And I think that is really
important, because I don't thinka lot of us do that. I don't
think a lot of us, either on apersonal or professional level
(22:04):
really take the time to reassesswhat has changed about my life,
about the world around me? Andhow exactly do I want to respond
to that? So I think that'sreally cool.
Yeah, I like the way you brokethat down. And like I sound
really, really eloquent.
You are really eliquid whetherwhether you get underestimated
(22:25):
or not, I know the truth did Iknow that you're very eloquent,
and I and it, but it is so true,though, right? You know, like,
we just we don't typically takethat time. And so I think that
that's a really like, importantlesson to be taken from this.
I'm like, Damn, like you said ittwice to like, that's, it's so
it's so powerful. It's so true.
So speak. So speaking ofcollege, I saw on your website,
you said that and actually don'tthink I knew this before. Maybe
(22:49):
you'd mentioned it before. But Idon't think I knew this before
looking at your website togather these questions. You have
your degree is in psychology andart. Oh, yeah. I don't know if
you know this, but I actuallyrecently interviewed I Isha, I
used to Blake. And so we talkeda lot about like her theatre
(23:11):
background and stuff. And butI'm just I'm wondering, from
your perspective, you know, kindof putting on the software
engineering hat for a second. Ibelieve that, you know, no
experience goes wasted. Right.
So you have this degree inpsychology and art. I think that
I think that both psychology andart intersect with technology a
lot. Have you had experiences inyour career where you're kind of
(23:36):
leaning on some and not leaningon some of that experience, but
being able to utilize some ofthat experience and knowledge
that you gained from college? inyour career in tech?
Yeah, I think one of the biggestthings that colleges taught me
is just how to learn. So when Iwas on that self, self taught
TAs, like I leaned on thatheavily. But outside of that,
(24:00):
like my actual degree, actuallystarted off in tech, being a UX
designer. So I was doing a lotof research a lot of personas,
and coming up with differentideas and hypothesis on how we
can improve websites forcompanies I worked at. So
initially, my degree wasextremely helpful. And it was
(24:24):
the reason why I landed a few ofmy first jobs was because I was
someone who was learning thetechnical skills, but I had the
psychology background. So whenpeople would come across my job,
my resume, they would say, like,Oh, you have the potential to be
a great manager, like you'regoing to be really great UX
(24:45):
person because you understandhuman behavior. And you can
figure these things out andyou'll be good at doing research
and doing all this paperwork indocumentation. So they looking
at my for employers, looking atmy resume. I seem like a really
great fit. But actually, how Ireally use it is just navigating
(25:06):
conversations. Yeah, I foundthat in tech, like there's a
stereotype that people in techdon't talk or they're not good
at conversations, whichsometimes it's true. But what
I've actually noticed is thatpeople are unaware of different
communication styles. And that'strue in any job and like
(25:27):
corporate or startup space. Andthat's one class that I took,
that I use the most is justunderstanding the different
forms of communication, howdifferent people communicate
based off of how society says weshould talk and things like
that. So using my my degree,it's mostly just to have
(25:49):
conversations, and to kind oflike think more far further
ahead when it comes to what thehumans do, as far as using our
product or just odd things thathumans do. Because we're odd
people, right? Yeah,I think that's really cool. You
touched on a couple of thingsthat I think is really
(26:09):
interesting. First of all, yousaid, college taught me just how
to learn in general. And for forthose of you who don't know, the
listeners, who are, again, notfamiliar with the tech industry,
as you can imagine, you know,our phones are always updating
websites are always updating,you know, so if you're the
person working on that stuff,you know, technology is
constantly evolving, and soyou're constantly having to
(26:30):
learn. So it's not just youknow, learning how to code once
and you're in and you're done.
It's, it's, you're constantlylearning and learning how to
learn is very important. Butyou're actually not the first
person to come onto this showand say, college taught me how
to learn my friend Diego who wasin Episode Two, he he said
(26:51):
something very similar. He'stechnically not using his
career, his degree either in hisjob, but he had, you know, some
of those those habits and, and,you know, way of thinking and
looking at things he gained fromcollege. And I think that's
really important, because I'mdefinitely one of those people
who, you know, I didn't go tocollege and I'm like, What is it
(27:12):
even for? It's all a scam. Andlike I said, No, no experience
goes wasted. There's, there'suse for everything, you know, so
so long as you know, what tolook for, and how to apply it.
And learning how to learn issuch an important skill. Oh, my
God, because it's like, once youcan figure out how to learn, you
can do anything, whatever it isthat you want to do, right?
(27:33):
Yeah. Oh, I forgot to say thatmy art degree has come in handy.
When we've been playing drawphone, I always win. always
wonder.
Well, that's, that's, that'svery funny. I love that. There's
(27:53):
also a lot of creativity inengineering, but no, the dropil
is the most important thing. Ilove that. Yes, but the
communication styles, I thinkthat that's really important,
too, you're saying that, youknow, people who they're not
necessarily bad at communicatingas much as they are unaware of
communication styles, you know,all of these things, even the
(28:15):
like, non technical part of thejob, are still technical, in
that they are skills that youcan learn in a kind of
mechanical way, you know, youyou are able to learn this stuff
from your degree, you know,someone who is not in a position
to go to college, you know,like, there's, there's books,
YouTube videos, like all thesethings. And it's interesting,
(28:37):
because I feel like all thosesoft skills are like, really
undervalued just in general. Andit's like, you know, why are you
reading about, like, you know,the love languages, or
attachment styles orcommunication styles, it's like,
all of that stuff does end upcoming into play, whether you're
running a business, whetheryou're working, you know, in a
job as an employee, even whileyou're still in school. And I
(29:02):
think that a lot of people sleepon how big of a competitive
advantage it gives you and alsoeven beyond the competitive
advantage. I don't know aboutyou, but for me, being able to
communicate with people, and I'mby no means perfect, but you
know, having, you know, moresoft skills, and I'd say the
(29:22):
average engineer when I was, youknow, when I was in tech, it
also just made my job easier.
It's like I can get through mydays so much more easily if I
know how the other person'scommunicating. And I can kind of
respond and react to that in away that's not going to worsen
the situation. And just fromthat alone, it just, yeah, it
just makes everything so muchsmoother. Yeah, yeah. Again, I
(29:47):
think it's really interestingthat when when I first asked you
about your managerial job, youwent straight into a service
oriented description of what youdo, you know, You want to make
the workplace better and easierand and more functionable for
the people working under you, oryour direct reports, I should
(30:08):
say. And, you know, tech bychoice is obviously a very
service oriented organization.
It's a nonprofit that helpspeople enter, stay and thrive in
tech. So I'm wondering, have youever done stuff in the past like
before in your previous life pretech, where you were really
(30:31):
involved in a in a community orany kind of like giving pack?
I got, you're connecting so manydots. I'm just like, oh, wow, I
am very, like community basedand everything I do. Um,
that's why I'm hosting thepodcast. Just call me the
millennial Oprah.
(30:53):
No, I think thinking back tolike, how I grew up, my mom did
daycare. So we had like,anywhere from like, 10 to 15
kids in the house at any giventime. And so I learned a lot of
like, how to be a person from mymom and like modeling how she
worked with the kids and workwith the parents. And she was
(31:14):
very, what is the group want todo? How does the group feel
about this? She was never thetype of person to say like,
Whoa, everyone's going to eatthis. We don't like it and you
just don't meet. Like that wasjust not the way she handled
things. And so I think that wasmy first understanding of
community. And the way she ran adaycare, she made us feel more
(31:36):
so like a family versus like,these are the daycare kids.
They're separate, like, No, wewere all together doing things.
And we had a lot of fun doingit. Um, so I think that's where
that comes from. And the waythat I decided to like, be it
show up as a leader and the waythat I look at Tech by choice,
(31:57):
because it's pretty much nowthat I think about it, like the
colors we have protect by choiceis actually the same colors that
my mom had for her. Herchildcare logo. So I like your
you've had no clue like how manydots she just connected right
now. Just Wow. I've turned intomy mom. Like, in the best
ways, though. It sounds likeYeah, yeah, I'm just my mom. And
(32:18):
I didn't realize that until likeright now. Um, yeah, community.
It's just second nature for me,I guess.
Yeah. I love that. That's socool. And pardon the pun on
Phnom Penh. But the the colorsbeing the same as the daycare,
(32:38):
that's quite a that's quite acallback. if I do say so much.
You got you got it. I don't knowhow many other people's gonna
laugh at that.
It's funny, because we mentionedcallbacks. So it's a literal
callback. And then it's it's apun on the callback functions
is, huh. Yeah. Yes. Who twonerds just laughed a lot at
(32:59):
that. That's really cool. I lovethat. So what about in college?
Were you ever involved in anycommunity stuff in college?
college, I just, that wasprobably the only time in my
life I act at my age. So therewas no no community base
anything happening. But in highschool, I was a part of a lot of
(33:22):
I think I was a part of almostevery club at our at our high
school. Please don't ask me whyor how, but I was. So a lot of
community there. And then I wasa part of this program called
upper bound. That felt like asecond home to me. And we really
focused on like how to get tocollege and all this other
stuff. And they help with likeresources and workshops and
(33:43):
classes. You nobody familiar.
The tech by choice. Okay.
Very familiar. Yeah.
Yeah. So I'm just a repeat of mylife. Yeah.
No, that's, that's good.
Yeah. So I think that wasanother farming community, what
other I also will know, incollege, I did come back and
(34:05):
like help volunteer for thatprogram, the upper bound
programs. So I worked with a lotof like high school students
getting ready for college. Andthat was a lot of fun. I think I
used to one of my favoritethings that me and my mom would
do together growing up, is wewould do the Relay for Life
events, the local events, sobeing able to go hang out in the
(34:28):
park and like, get thattogether. And so I guess there's
a lot of aspects of my life thathas been very community based
driven and stuff like that.
Yeah, that's really cool. So Ithink I touched on it before we
recorded that. One of the thingsthat I was going to try to
figure out remember I said, Ihave questions that are geared
(34:49):
towards trying to figure outwhy, of all of all the people
that know that these problems intech exist. Why was it You that
started tech by choice and notand not in a like, Who are you
to say, but almost the exactopposite of like, why isn't
everybody feeling like, youknow, empowered to do this? And
(35:10):
the reason why is because youalready had so much experience
in that you know what I mean?
Like this is, this is just whatyou do like you are a community
driven person and you believeso, so close to the core of who
you are in the power ofcommunity and community driven
things that it almost seems likeif you see a need for that
(35:31):
community, it's like, you can'tyou can't help but do it because
it is just such a part of whoyou are.
That was so sweet. Are you amotivational speaker too?
Because that definitely made mefeel good. No, I think that's
true. Because when I when I waslooking at some of the other
communities that I was a part oftrying to get into tech, I think
(35:53):
one of the things that theylacked wishes, who even know how
to how to phrase it, becauseit's a feeling that you get when
you're in community, and thatthe community just gets you. And
I didn't feel that with a lot ofthe other themes that were out
there. And I think it's peopledon't know how to how to
generate that how to how to makethat happen. That doesn't seem
(36:16):
very scheduled, or it doesn'tseem very. So basic. What's it
What's a personal work term forthat basic, unseasoned? That's
not there on season that sort offeels like, yeah, some community
generic, there we go generic, itfeels very sterile and generic,
(36:36):
and just like, not fun. And Ithink that's what they're
missing. They're missing theunderstanding how to do that.
And the understanding of howimportant it is to stay
connected to the members. So youcan keep that going.
Yeah, absolutely. Um, a fewweeks ago, we had Marshall hue
on the show, and he is amusician and an activist who got
(36:58):
really involved in, in chop inSeattle, the like, where it
Yeah, so he, he was saying, inour interview, you know, he was
talking about how protesting isa skill, like, you have to kind
of know what to do to, you know,one not make the situation
worse, and to, you know, like,not burnout and, and all these
things and actually beproductive. And it seems like,
(37:20):
it's like, it's something thatseems as simple as you paint a
sign and you go out there. Andthat's not the case at all, I
would say the same is probablytrue for these community driven
organizations, it seems like,it's just as simple as getting a
group of like minded peopletogether and getting out there
and helping, but there is a lotof skill to it, there is a lot
of stuff that you need to do toget it right. And you have been
(37:44):
able to spend your entire lifetweaking it, you know, like we
we come from softwareengineering, and software
engineering is all aboutcontinuously improving, just
like what you were talking aboutwith thrive with assessing, you
know, your financial needs andaspirations like these things,
you know, you're continuously,you know, tweaking these things
in on a broader scale. You'recontinuously tweaking, you know,
(38:07):
how to do community driventhings. And, and I think that's
great. And I think there's alsokind of solves the mystery of
you know, or not necessarilymystery, but it kind of explains
why, all this time while you'vebeen in tech, you know, money
has always still been thedriving force, like tech by
choice hasn't necessarilychanged the fact that you're in
(38:29):
it mostly for the money, it'sbecause you're in your job,
because you're in your job,because you're in your job. And
pretty much no matter what youwould be doing with your life,
you would probably have somesort of community driven thing
around that. So even if you packthis all up and said, You know,
I don't want to do tech anymore,I am just going to be an artist,
you know, you would probably berunning some sort of community
(38:51):
based organization for art, youknow, like, it's not even so
much that that gave you purposeas much as it is. I'm Valerie,
of course, this is what I'mgoing to do. Of course, you
know,yeah, it's funny, you say the
art thing, because growing up, Ialways knew I was going to do
some type of nonprofit or sometype of community. But for the
longest time, it was a art Bay'snonprofit for kids that grew up
(39:13):
in the city I grew up in, like,I picked the building I would
buy and everything, and somehowit turned into tech by choice
instead.
And hey, I mean, tech is alucrative field. I mean, there's
there's absolutely, you know, apossibility that even if you
stay in tech, there's there's afuture where you get to still do
that. Eventually. Yeah, yeah,definitely. Not, not right now.
(39:41):
It looks like we're just aboutout of time. Is there? Is there
anything else that you'd like toshare with us? Aside from
promotions, I'll let you dopromotions and plugs in a
second. But is there anythingyou feel like you'd be remiss if
if you left without saying,I think the only thing I'm going
to share is that if someone'stelling me to get into tech,
look beyond coding, becausethey're 1000 Other things you
can do to make a good living.
(40:02):
You don't have to learn how tocode. So I wish I knew that.
Yeah, absolutely. such animportant point. Yeah. And and
to that point, ask all the war,a wide variety of people, you
know, whatever it is that you'reinterested in, ask a wide
variety of people don't go toone person, even if they seem
like the Pro, because we allonly know what we know. And what
(40:24):
I know, might not be useful toyou, you know, because I don't
really know what you're lookingfor. Yeah. That's great. I love
that. Valerie, thank you so muchfor coming on, man. This is this
is great. I do love how we gotto connect all these dots.
Because it's true. I mean, Ithink, I think when we don't
think about it in this way, butwhen we really stop and pause
(40:44):
and reflect on our life there,there are a lot of patterns. And
the way someone said it to meonce is like interest change,
but like core values don't. Andit seems like you know,
community is absolutely a corevalue of yours, and has been,
you know, pretty much since youwere born. Thanks. Thanks to
your mom. Yes, yes, definitely.
That's really cool. Well, whatwould you like to promote? Where
(41:08):
would you like to be found?
Um, follow me on Twitter,digital Black Hippy, give tech
by choice to follow. We areattacked by choice or on all
platforms. We have a YouTubechannel too. So if you're the
type of content, check us out onYouTube, give us a follow like
and subscribe. That's what theYouTube people say. Right? Yeah,
(41:28):
I think so. Yeah, like andsubscribe. Yeah. Yeah,
absolutely. And I'll say to youknow, if you are someone who is
interested in getting into thetech industry and feel, you
know, in any way, intimidated orunsure where to go, tech by
choice is a great resource touse can't recommend it enough.
Lucas, actually, former guest ofthe show, Lucas casera is the
(41:52):
financial planner. We connectedthrough tech by choice and
through Valerie's so you know,it's a great community of great
people who, you know, all wantto help each other out and all
want to, you know, make surethat they that they thrive in
this in this gold rush of anindustry.
Yes, that was a better plug thatI gave. So thank you.
(42:13):
Anytime, you know, I'm the I'mthe hype man over here. Yeah.
All right. Thank you so much,Valerie. I'll talk to you later.
Bye.
All right. Once again, that wasValerie Phoenix. Thank you
again, Valerie for coming ontothe show. You know, I love what
(42:35):
she's doing with tech by choice.
And seriously, no matter what itis that you're going through in
life? Are you experiencing aloss? Are you starting a new
venture? Are you redefining yourvalues, no matter what that is,
just find a group of like mindedpeople, it makes a world of a
difference. So I reallyappreciate what Valerie's doing
(42:55):
in the tech community. I justlove being able to be with
people when they have those ahamoments. It's so cool to me, you
know, the fact that the colorsfor tech by choice match the
colors of Valerie's mom'sdaycare. Like That is so cool to
me, you know, and it reallyshows how this service oriented
leadership is just a part of whoshe is. And I love creating
(43:17):
those moments with anyeverybody. So you know, if
you're, if you're feeling kindof stuck, if you feel like I
hear, you know, all these thingsthat Leo's saying with these
guests, but that's becausethey're doing these big things,
and that can never be me. Let'stalk seriously. The firt the
first step to really living inyour truth is understanding how
(43:40):
you got to where you are today.
And I love helping peoplenavigate that, you know, it's
it's work that I've been doingon myself for like 15 years now,
honestly, you know, and, yeah,we're gonna continue exploring
it with more guests every week.
It's looking more like I'm notgoing to close out the season
right now, I know I mentionedsomething about that last week,
(44:01):
but I think we're gonna keep onrolling for at least another
couple more months before beforewe wind things down. So again,
thank you so much for being onthis journey with me. And see
you next week. Stay evolving.
Hello, and welcome to anotherepisode of the Leo Yockey show,
the show where I Leo Yockeyinterview guests about how their
unique life path led them todefine success and fulfillment.
The goal is to provide you thelistener some relief for your
existential dread. Here's thesecret. It's all about asking
(00:35):
questions. Seriously, have youseen those memes that are going
around that are like, do I likehim? Or does he just text
regularly? They're they'repopular because they speak to a
universal truth, right?
Oftentimes, when we're facingproblems, or we don't know what
to do, it's not that we don'thave the answer. It's that we're
(00:56):
not asking the right questionsto get to those answers. I
really believe that if we frameour past in the right way, and
we ask the right questions, andwe connect the right dots, we'll
find that how we got to wherewe're at, is part of a whole
story. And when we see wherewe're at in that story, where we
(01:17):
see where our current chapterends, there's only so many ways
that the next chapter could go,that would make sense, right?
And that talks about a littlebit last week with Murphy, and
how if he hadn't had experiencewith digital advertising and
music, maybe it wouldn't havemade sense for him to strike out
on his own as a musician, and itwouldn't have felt right.
(01:38):
Anyway, that's what I get intowith today's guest, Valerie
Phoenix. She is the founder oftech by choice, a great
organization that I'll let hertalk about in the interview. And
watch how, just by asking theright questions, we get to kind
of unpack how she got to whereshe's at. and really make sense
(01:59):
of where her values fit intowhat she does for a living. I
think it's all really cool. Buthey, if you've been enjoying
this show, you know, thank you,for your support, continue to
leave your five star rating andreviews spent anywhere, but
especially on Apple, it makes ahuge difference. You know, we're
(02:20):
still ranking internationally.
And you know, a lot more peoplehave been reaching out to me
directly to tell me what youlike about the show that you
believe in it. You know, thankyou so much. It all really means
a lot to me. So, yeah, let's getstarted with today's show. Here
is Valerie Phoenix.
(02:52):
Hey, Valerie, how's it going?
How you doing?
I'm doing good. Excited to behere to chat with you.
Yeah, me too. I don't know ifeither of us are as excited as
your dog. Yeah, hopefully we canmaintain that level of
excitement. In case that guyedited out, Valerie's dog is
barking we may be hearing fromthem. And and it's all good.
(03:13):
It's all great. I love it. Yeah.
I'm gonna just dive right intoit. Because I feel like we're
gonna end up having a lot tocover. And I don't want to take
over your entire afternoon. Socan you tell me I guess we'll
we'll tackle kind of both thingsseparately. So can you tell me
first? What you do for your Iguess we'll call it day job. For
(03:35):
the sake of this this context,this conversation?
Yeah, so right now I'm aengineering manager for a mental
health tech startup. And so myday I like to tell people, I'm
focused on creating environmentsthat make it easier for people I
work with to get work done. Andjust like thinking ahead, and
(03:56):
strategizing, and having fundoing that, and I don't know,
did I say interviewing people?
I'm constantly in interviewingin that that's a lot less
meetings.
Nice, nice. I see already. I'mlike, Oh, this is really
interesting. Because I thinkyou're the first person that
I've ever talked to who's in amanagerial position, where the
(04:19):
very first thing that you sayabout what you do and what your
core duties are, is, I forgetyour exact phrase, I'm already
going to butcher it. But yousaid something about making the
work environment easier orbetter or more comfortable for
the people that are workingunder you. So I think it's very
interesting that you have such aservice oriented way of looking
(04:41):
at your job that I wish moremanagers had.
Yeah, I've been told I'm uniquein my leadership style a few
times. Sothat's very interesting. And so
to that point, can you tell usalso about the nonprofit that
you founded?
Yeah, so I started tech bychoice about two years ago now.
(05:04):
And so our mission is to makesure that underrepresented
groups can enter stay and thrivein tech. And we do it from a
very non trivial way. Because weknow working with all
underrepresented groups, we haveto focus on the barriers that
they face. So just just liketechnical literacy, financial
(05:26):
literacy, things around, likemental health, are all things
that we tackle on top of like,the professional development, so
lots of lots of moving pieces,but we've been able to build a
really great community. So it'sall worth it.
Yeah, definitely. And I like youalready got right into to the
three key pillars of tech bychoice as, as it says on the
(05:48):
website, which is enter, stayand thrive. And I and I love
that because I feel like in alot of places where they talk
about the importance ofdiversity and inclusion, a lot
of the focus is on that firstpillar enter, right, you know,
we got to get our numbers of wehave to have more diversity, how
we have to recruit more diversepeople. And those other pieces,
(06:09):
I feel like you might see alittle bit of it with this day,
which which you kind of touchedon already is kind of the mental
health piece and financialliteracy and, and kind of, for
lack of a better term kind ofjust getting people settled in,
but then thrive, can you kind ofcan you just kind of speak a
little bit to what that thirdpillar is? Because I feel like,
in my opinion, at least in whatin what little I've seen, I feel
(06:31):
like that is a piece that isoften really missing, especially
from diversity drivenorganizations that aren't
necessarily community driven, orlike run by the community, I
should say,yeah, so that that part is
something that is alwayschanging. I always say like, Oh,
we can thrive right now in thiscurrent times, by doing XYZ
(06:53):
thing, and that's supporting thecommunity or like, work
situation, we can have thisinterview process that is very,
reduces a lot of bias is verysupportive. But that can change,
right? So like with COVID, whenCOVID hit, people started to
rethink the way that they did alot of things because we were
(07:14):
experiencing all the burnout,people were just like high
levels of stress, people aren'table to focus and then you had
the flip side of it were inorder to like zone out and like
have some feeling of peacepeople were overworking. So to
them, for them to thrive. Theyneeded freedom to just work non
(07:34):
stop until it's time to like eatsleep, wake up, do it again.
Yeah, so to me, because thriveis always changing. In order for
us like as tech by choice as anorganization to help people
thrive, we always have tounderstand what's going on with
our community, we can't getturned into one of those orgs
(07:54):
that are very high level verytop down. Because we'll never
understand what it means for ourmembers to thrive for as far as
like programming. And what Ithink that looks like, to me
thriving means that even ifyou're unhappy with the job that
you currently have, you know,have a game plan, you have like
(08:15):
that, that side hustle to keepyou going. You have all the
resources that you need to takewhatever the next step is, we
don't have that kind of likelost feeling of, well, what do I
do now that I'm here? How do Iget my next promotion? Should I
change jobs? Like just beingable to drive means that you can
(08:38):
have those questions, but youknow, where to redirect them?
And where to ask them and thingslike that?
Yeah, I think that's reallypowerful. For sure. Because the
idea that we're, you know, insome perfect world where most
people enjoy their job isobviously not reality. And I
(09:02):
really like that concept of evenif you don't like your job, you
know, you kind of haveresources, you know that there's
a way out, basically, and youcan kind of get a game plan and
you're supported in that, youknow, for the listeners,
especially like, Can you can youspeak to times, you know, pre
tech by choice in your owncareer where you didn't have
that, like, I guess set anotherway? Did you worry at any point
(09:26):
that you weren't going to beable to stay and thrive in the
tech industry?
Um, I feel like you type bychoices. 100% sure. I felt that
a number of times, even posttech by choice. So we won't get
into the post not yet. But Idefinitely started now it was
(09:46):
really hard for me. I jumpedinto tech without even really
knowing what tech was it didn'tknow what girls are out there.
All I knew was I needed money. Ineeded a better job. And Google
told me both developers makeLots of money. So that's what I
did. I think there's a couplelike pivotal moments where I'm
just like, this is not for me. Iwas really excited when I found
(10:10):
out about meetup. I didn't knowwhat meetup was, I didn't
understand any of that concept.
And I learned about it through apodcast that I was listening to,
to figure out what tech was. AndI went to one meetup, it was
really great, very supportive.
And I thought, okay, everythingon this website is going to be
like this. went to anothercommunity event, I should say
(10:33):
that the first event I went towas focused on like women in
code, learning how to code. Andthe second event I went to was a
boot camp that was just gettingstarted in LA. And there, they
were moreso focused on preppingpeople to get into their boot
camp. It was in downtown LA, itwas not in a nicer part of
(10:59):
downtown either. It was atnight, and parking was super far
away. So one, I was terrified toeven walk to the location. When
I got there. It's just men, Iwas the only female. And they
were mostly white men. And theywere very tech bro ish type
people. But I didn't know thosered flags. And so the activity
(11:20):
hat, we had to do pairprogramming. And so I was paired
with. I was doing the coding,and the other person was telling
me what to do. And I rememberthe guy coming up to me who's
leading the event saying like,Well, why aren't you talking?
It's because you're a girl,right? You're afraid to speak,
wow, and talk here. And it wasabout I think it was a callback
(11:42):
luncheon. That's what they weretrying to teach us. And it was
the first time I've ever heardabout anything like that. And I
remember thinking like, I don'tknow what to do, or what to say
to this person. I don't get it.
I'mjust just for listeners who are
not into tech, because thisisn't just a tech audience. a
callback function is prettyadvanced for a one hour session
(12:03):
geared towards people with zeroprogramming experience.
Yeah, yeah. Like I remember justno one getting it. I think it
took me probably like a year ortwo to be in tech to understand
what a callback function is.
Yeah. But I remember thinking,the guy telling me since I was
talking that I needed to switchspots for the person I was pair
(12:24):
programming with. And so the guystarted to do all the typing.
And then I was talking himthrough what to do. And I
remember the guy just comingback and saying, like, yeah,
you're not going to get this,you're not getting this, you
have to do this, just reallyredirecting and trying to
correct me in that process. AndI remember I just got up and
like, laughs, I remember goingto my car, like in tears saying,
(12:47):
like, never do this, I'll neverbe a part of tech, like, I'll
never figure out this JavaScriptstuff. And I think that was a
key moment to me to realize thatcommunity can really tear you
down. Like, I had to be veryselective with what I decided to
put myself in an environmentthat I was going to be around.
(13:09):
And I think that's, that helpedme understand it, how to create
environments, whether it be atwork, or for tech by choice,
that will really make peoplefeel good about even making a
mistake. Like that whole processof learning this function, or
this, this code that made nosense to me. There was no safe
(13:30):
rows, there is no like, this ishow you ease into this. And it
was just very harsh. I thinkthat's like the complete
opposite of like, how I vieweverything now.
Yeah, yeah, I think that'sreally powerful. We this this
topic actually comes up a lot onthe podcast of, you know, who
(13:51):
you surround yourself with, thatreally matters, it really can,
like make or break you becauseyou had this amazing first
experience was thank God, you atleast had that first experience
with the with the meetup thatwas geared more towards women,
so at least you at least somepart of you knew like, well, I
guess it can't all be bad.
Because imagine if that thatfirst experience was your first
ever experience. And until youknow, because you're brand new,
(14:16):
you're just you know, dippingyour toe in to see if you like
this, if that had been yourfirst ever experience. You know,
you looked up web development onon Google, you know, there's so
much about the industry thatboth you and I know now that you
didn't know, then, I mean, thatcould have been enough for you
to walk away from it forever.
(14:36):
And I don't know I think that'sjust man. That's that's really,
I mean, what's upsetting aboutit is how not surprising most of
that story is, you know what Imean? Like it's so It's so
typical for the industry. And soand as a result, it is so much
more important to kind of knowwho your people are and to be
(14:59):
able to find People that thatyou can trust and who aren't
going to like, you know, justassume like, oh, you're not
talking much is it becauseyou're a woman like, Damn, dude,
maybe maybe I'm not talking muchbecause I'm brand new. And
you're pressuring us to do abunch of stuff that unbeknownst
to me is probably too advancedfor any of us in this room
Anyway, you know what I mean?
And those those, you know, thosebiases that are sometimes either
(15:22):
conscious or unconscious, youknow, if though, if you were a
white man, he might have been alittle bit more forgiving. And I
would even say, for you nottalking, he would be like, oh,
wow, you remind me of MarkZuckerberg, you know, like,
really annoying, doublestandard. But anyway, sorry,
that's my, that's my tangentabout that. But, uh, preaching
(15:43):
to the choir here, obviously.
So, so you touched on somethingthat I kind of wanted to talk
about, which is that youinitially got into web
development, because you neededmore money. You know, you did
some Google searches, and yourealize that web development is
something that makes a lot ofmoney. And probably, I'm
(16:05):
assuming from that Googlesearch, you also kind of figured
out that you could be selftaught, you know, you didn't
necessarily have to go back tocollege or anything like that.
You got an attack because of themoney. Has that changed at all?
Since being in tech by choice?
Or since tech by choices hasgrown? Do you still feel like
money? Is the main, you know,like motivating force keep
keeping you in this industry? Ordo you feel like now that you're
(16:29):
kind of helping people not haveto go through what you went
through, that you you enjoy theprocess more of being in tech.
Now, money is still the drivingfactor. So but it's, it's the
driving factor for differentreasons now. So when I was when
(16:52):
I was first trying to get intotech, it was for survival. Like
I would not, I think I I was100% living paycheck to
paycheck. But I think it waseven less than that. Because I
was living paycheck plus maxingout multiple credit cards just
to make it. So that first I wantto say here it was survival. And
(17:15):
then like, once I realized,okay, like, I'm in an OK, space,
no longer living paycheck topaycheck. I may have like a few
extra dollars a month, like nowI can rethink about what it
means to work in tech. And I canrethink what my relationship is
to money. And when I started torethink those things, I
(17:36):
realized, Oh, I'm just here formoney. But because it's I'm
here, because of the access atthis money can get in. I know, I
went when I was in college, Ithought the only way I'll ever
be able to travel in my life isif I do study if I study abroad.
And then I want to stay after ayear of being in tech, I went
(17:57):
on, I got on my first plane. AndI left the state by myself. And
I went to a conference. I'mlike, Okay, I'm gonna stay here
for the opportunities, becausenow I have money. And I can go
to these work related events,and my job will pay for it. I'm
like, why would I ever leave? Soturn into opportunity. And then
when I started looking at lunchin tech, by choice and start
(18:20):
started really working with thecommunity, I'm like, Well, if I
had more money, and more accessto that money, our bigger
network or a network who had, ifI can connect to one person who
had more connections, I couldthen give other people that
opportunity to make that choicethemselves. So I'm just like,
okay, so money is always afactor of why I'm here. But the
(18:46):
depth of what that means tendsto change me like about like,
every two, three years. But Ithink what the one thing that
always pops up in my head when Ihit the rough spots for tech,
and I'm questioning if I shouldbe here, or if I should stay.
One thing that keeps me here ismoney. Because I realize I'm a
black woman, and for most of theyear I where we're fro, like, I
(19:11):
tend to voice my opinion. If Idon't voice it, my face shows it
sound like I'm going to betreated like crap. anywhere I
go, it doesn't matter whatindustry I'm in, I'm going to
always be considered secondclass, or I'm not going to use a
be deemed highly skilled off offirst glance. So I'm like, why
(19:31):
would I remove the money tostill be treated, mistreated? So
I'm just like, always stay forthe money just for that.
Yeah, I think that totally makessense. I mean, I was telling you
before we started recording, youknow, as we were kind of like
talking about like different,different things that that mean,
or how success means differentthings for different people. You
(19:53):
know, there's people that I'veinterviewed on this podcast
where, you know, their job isliterally just there. job and
you know what really brings themjoy and fulfillment are like
things that they get to dooutside of work. And the main
benefit to their job is thatthey don't have to constantly
think about whether or not theyneed to go somewhere else every
(20:13):
six months or whatever. And thatpart might not necessarily be
the case for you, I don't know.
But it is really interesting.
Because you keep you actuallybrought up this concept in two
different places, of kind of rere examining things re examining
both how and why you're doingthings, you brought it up, and
we were talking about thrive intech by choice, you're saying
(20:36):
that what people need to be ableto thrive in the tech industry,
as an underrepresented andunderestimated individual is,
you know, you know, what, whatpeople need is going to
constantly change, and you wantto have like, a bottom up
approach to always, you know, bebe being able to always respond
to what people need, and you'retaking that same mentality, and
(20:59):
you're applying it to your lifetoo. And you're looking at, you
know, initially it was, I justneed to not constantly be in
debt and be able to survive. Andthat was all you're focused on.
Right? Because that's just whereyou were at, you know, and then
you got past that point. And yousaid, Okay, I'm not at this
point anymore. I'm not justsurviving. What do I actually
(21:19):
want to need, you know, and youknew that you would want to
travel or I'm not sure if youknew you always want to travel.
But like you, you did not thinkthat traveling would necessarily
be an option for you. And youlooked around, you're like,
wait, that's not true anymore. Ican't travel and, and so you're
able to kind of do more stuff,and constantly reevaluate what,
(21:41):
what you want. And I think that,even though Yeah, like,
technically, you're intact, justfor the money, but the fact that
like, you're constantly kind oflike leveling up and seeing what
you can do, both for yourcommunity and for yourself, I
think I think that's reallycool. And I think that is really
important, because I don't thinka lot of us do that. I don't
think a lot of us, either on apersonal or professional level
(22:04):
really take the time to reassesswhat has changed about my life,
about the world around me? Andhow exactly do I want to respond
to that? So I think that'sreally cool.
Yeah, I like the way you brokethat down. And like I sound
really, really eloquent.
You are really eliquid whetherwhether you get underestimated
(22:25):
or not, I know the truth did Iknow that you're very eloquent,
and I and it, but it is so true,though, right? You know, like,
we just we don't typically takethat time. And so I think that
that's a really like, importantlesson to be taken from this.
I'm like, Damn, like you said ittwice to like, that's, it's so
it's so powerful. It's so true.
So speak. So speaking ofcollege, I saw on your website,
you said that and actually don'tthink I knew this before. Maybe
(22:49):
you'd mentioned it before. But Idon't think I knew this before
looking at your website togather these questions. You have
your degree is in psychology andart. Oh, yeah. I don't know if
you know this, but I actuallyrecently interviewed I Isha, I
used to Blake. And so we talkeda lot about like her theatre
(23:11):
background and stuff. And butI'm just I'm wondering, from
your perspective, you know, kindof putting on the software
engineering hat for a second. Ibelieve that, you know, no
experience goes wasted. Right.
So you have this degree inpsychology and art. I think that
I think that both psychology andart intersect with technology a
lot. Have you had experiences inyour career where you're kind of
(23:36):
leaning on some and not leaningon some of that experience, but
being able to utilize some ofthat experience and knowledge
that you gained from college? inyour career in tech?
Yeah, I think one of the biggestthings that colleges taught me
is just how to learn. So when Iwas on that self, self taught
TAs, like I leaned on thatheavily. But outside of that,
(24:00):
like my actual degree, actuallystarted off in tech, being a UX
designer. So I was doing a lotof research a lot of personas,
and coming up with differentideas and hypothesis on how we
can improve websites forcompanies I worked at. So
initially, my degree wasextremely helpful. And it was
(24:24):
the reason why I landed a few ofmy first jobs was because I was
someone who was learning thetechnical skills, but I had the
psychology background. So whenpeople would come across my job,
my resume, they would say, like,Oh, you have the potential to be
a great manager, like you'regoing to be really great UX
(24:45):
person because you understandhuman behavior. And you can
figure these things out andyou'll be good at doing research
and doing all this paperwork indocumentation. So they looking
at my for employers, looking atmy resume. I seem like a really
great fit. But actually, how Ireally use it is just navigating
(25:06):
conversations. Yeah, I foundthat in tech, like there's a
stereotype that people in techdon't talk or they're not good
at conversations, whichsometimes it's true. But what
I've actually noticed is thatpeople are unaware of different
communication styles. And that'strue in any job and like
(25:27):
corporate or startup space. Andthat's one class that I took,
that I use the most is justunderstanding the different
forms of communication, howdifferent people communicate
based off of how society says weshould talk and things like
that. So using my my degree,it's mostly just to have
(25:49):
conversations, and to kind oflike think more far further
ahead when it comes to what thehumans do, as far as using our
product or just odd things thathumans do. Because we're odd
people, right? Yeah,I think that's really cool. You
touched on a couple of thingsthat I think is really
(26:09):
interesting. First of all, yousaid, college taught me just how
to learn in general. And for forthose of you who don't know, the
listeners, who are, again, notfamiliar with the tech industry,
as you can imagine, you know,our phones are always updating
websites are always updating,you know, so if you're the
person working on that stuff,you know, technology is
constantly evolving, and soyou're constantly having to
(26:30):
learn. So it's not just youknow, learning how to code once
and you're in and you're done.
It's, it's, you're constantlylearning and learning how to
learn is very important. Butyou're actually not the first
person to come onto this showand say, college taught me how
to learn my friend Diego who wasin Episode Two, he he said
(26:51):
something very similar. He'stechnically not using his
career, his degree either in hisjob, but he had, you know, some
of those those habits and, and,you know, way of thinking and
looking at things he gained fromcollege. And I think that's
really important, because I'mdefinitely one of those people
who, you know, I didn't go tocollege and I'm like, What is it
(27:12):
even for? It's all a scam. Andlike I said, No, no experience
goes wasted. There's, there'suse for everything, you know, so
so long as you know, what tolook for, and how to apply it.
And learning how to learn issuch an important skill. Oh, my
God, because it's like, once youcan figure out how to learn, you
can do anything, whatever it isthat you want to do, right?
(27:33):
Yeah. Oh, I forgot to say thatmy art degree has come in handy.
When we've been playing drawphone, I always win. always
wonder.
Well, that's, that's, that'svery funny. I love that. There's
(27:53):
also a lot of creativity inengineering, but no, the dropil
is the most important thing. Ilove that. Yes, but the
communication styles, I thinkthat that's really important,
too, you're saying that, youknow, people who they're not
necessarily bad at communicatingas much as they are unaware of
communication styles, you know,all of these things, even the
(28:15):
like, non technical part of thejob, are still technical, in
that they are skills that youcan learn in a kind of
mechanical way, you know, youyou are able to learn this stuff
from your degree, you know,someone who is not in a position
to go to college, you know,like, there's, there's books,
YouTube videos, like all thesethings. And it's interesting,
(28:37):
because I feel like all thosesoft skills are like, really
undervalued just in general. Andit's like, you know, why are you
reading about, like, you know,the love languages, or
attachment styles orcommunication styles, it's like,
all of that stuff does end upcoming into play, whether you're
running a business, whetheryou're working, you know, in a
job as an employee, even whileyou're still in school. And I
(29:02):
think that a lot of people sleepon how big of a competitive
advantage it gives you and alsoeven beyond the competitive
advantage. I don't know aboutyou, but for me, being able to
communicate with people, and I'mby no means perfect, but you
know, having, you know, moresoft skills, and I'd say the
(29:22):
average engineer when I was, youknow, when I was in tech, it
also just made my job easier.
It's like I can get through mydays so much more easily if I
know how the other person'scommunicating. And I can kind of
respond and react to that in away that's not going to worsen
the situation. And just fromthat alone, it just, yeah, it
just makes everything so muchsmoother. Yeah, yeah. Again, I
(29:47):
think it's really interestingthat when when I first asked you
about your managerial job, youwent straight into a service
oriented description of what youdo, you know, You want to make
the workplace better and easierand and more functionable for
the people working under you, oryour direct reports, I should
(30:08):
say. And, you know, tech bychoice is obviously a very
service oriented organization.
It's a nonprofit that helpspeople enter, stay and thrive in
tech. So I'm wondering, have youever done stuff in the past like
before in your previous life pretech, where you were really
(30:31):
involved in a in a community orany kind of like giving pack?
I got, you're connecting so manydots. I'm just like, oh, wow, I
am very, like community basedand everything I do. Um,
that's why I'm hosting thepodcast. Just call me the
millennial Oprah.
(30:53):
No, I think thinking back tolike, how I grew up, my mom did
daycare. So we had like,anywhere from like, 10 to 15
kids in the house at any giventime. And so I learned a lot of
like, how to be a person from mymom and like modeling how she
worked with the kids and workwith the parents. And she was
(31:14):
very, what is the group want todo? How does the group feel
about this? She was never thetype of person to say like,
Whoa, everyone's going to eatthis. We don't like it and you
just don't meet. Like that wasjust not the way she handled
things. And so I think that wasmy first understanding of
community. And the way she ran adaycare, she made us feel more
(31:36):
so like a family versus like,these are the daycare kids.
They're separate, like, No, wewere all together doing things.
And we had a lot of fun doingit. Um, so I think that's where
that comes from. And the waythat I decided to like, be it
show up as a leader and the waythat I look at Tech by choice,
(31:57):
because it's pretty much nowthat I think about it, like the
colors we have protect by choiceis actually the same colors that
my mom had for her. Herchildcare logo. So I like your
you've had no clue like how manydots she just connected right
now. Just Wow. I've turned intomy mom. Like, in the best
ways, though. It sounds likeYeah, yeah, I'm just my mom. And
(32:18):
I didn't realize that until likeright now. Um, yeah, community.
It's just second nature for me,I guess.
Yeah. I love that. That's socool. And pardon the pun on
Phnom Penh. But the the colorsbeing the same as the daycare,
(32:38):
that's quite a that's quite acallback. if I do say so much.
You got you got it. I don't knowhow many other people's gonna
laugh at that.
It's funny, because we mentionedcallbacks. So it's a literal
callback. And then it's it's apun on the callback functions
is, huh. Yeah. Yes. Who twonerds just laughed a lot at
(32:59):
that. That's really cool. I lovethat. So what about in college?
Were you ever involved in anycommunity stuff in college?
college, I just, that wasprobably the only time in my
life I act at my age. So therewas no no community base
anything happening. But in highschool, I was a part of a lot of
(33:22):
I think I was a part of almostevery club at our at our high
school. Please don't ask me whyor how, but I was. So a lot of
community there. And then I wasa part of this program called
upper bound. That felt like asecond home to me. And we really
focused on like how to get tocollege and all this other
stuff. And they help with likeresources and workshops and
(33:43):
classes. You nobody familiar.
The tech by choice. Okay.
Very familiar. Yeah.
Yeah. So I'm just a repeat of mylife. Yeah.
No, that's, that's good.
Yeah. So I think that wasanother farming community, what
other I also will know, incollege, I did come back and
(34:05):
like help volunteer for thatprogram, the upper bound
programs. So I worked with a lotof like high school students
getting ready for college. Andthat was a lot of fun. I think I
used to one of my favoritethings that me and my mom would
do together growing up, is wewould do the Relay for Life
events, the local events, sobeing able to go hang out in the
(34:28):
park and like, get thattogether. And so I guess there's
a lot of aspects of my life thathas been very community based
driven and stuff like that.
Yeah, that's really cool. So Ithink I touched on it before we
recorded that. One of the thingsthat I was going to try to
figure out remember I said, Ihave questions that are geared
(34:49):
towards trying to figure outwhy, of all of all the people
that know that these problems intech exist. Why was it You that
started tech by choice and notand not in a like, Who are you
to say, but almost the exactopposite of like, why isn't
everybody feeling like, youknow, empowered to do this? And
(35:10):
the reason why is because youalready had so much experience
in that you know what I mean?
Like this is, this is just whatyou do like you are a community
driven person and you believeso, so close to the core of who
you are in the power ofcommunity and community driven
things that it almost seems likeif you see a need for that
(35:31):
community, it's like, you can'tyou can't help but do it because
it is just such a part of whoyou are.
That was so sweet. Are you amotivational speaker too?
Because that definitely made mefeel good. No, I think that's
true. Because when I when I waslooking at some of the other
communities that I was a part oftrying to get into tech, I think
(35:53):
one of the things that theylacked wishes, who even know how
to how to phrase it, becauseit's a feeling that you get when
you're in community, and thatthe community just gets you. And
I didn't feel that with a lot ofthe other themes that were out
there. And I think it's peopledon't know how to how to
generate that how to how to makethat happen. That doesn't seem
(36:16):
very scheduled, or it doesn'tseem very. So basic. What's it
What's a personal work term forthat basic, unseasoned? That's
not there on season that sort offeels like, yeah, some community
generic, there we go generic, itfeels very sterile and generic,
(36:36):
and just like, not fun. And Ithink that's what they're
missing. They're missing theunderstanding how to do that.
And the understanding of howimportant it is to stay
connected to the members. So youcan keep that going.
Yeah, absolutely. Um, a fewweeks ago, we had Marshall hue
on the show, and he is amusician and an activist who got
(36:58):
really involved in, in chop inSeattle, the like, where it
Yeah, so he, he was saying, inour interview, you know, he was
talking about how protesting isa skill, like, you have to kind
of know what to do to, you know,one not make the situation
worse, and to, you know, like,not burnout and, and all these
things and actually beproductive. And it seems like,
(37:20):
it's like, it's something thatseems as simple as you paint a
sign and you go out there. Andthat's not the case at all, I
would say the same is probablytrue for these community driven
organizations, it seems like,it's just as simple as getting a
group of like minded peopletogether and getting out there
and helping, but there is a lotof skill to it, there is a lot
of stuff that you need to do toget it right. And you have been
(37:44):
able to spend your entire lifetweaking it, you know, like we
we come from softwareengineering, and software
engineering is all aboutcontinuously improving, just
like what you were talking aboutwith thrive with assessing, you
know, your financial needs andaspirations like these things,
you know, you're continuously,you know, tweaking these things
in on a broader scale. You'recontinuously tweaking, you know,
(38:07):
how to do community driventhings. And, and I think that's
great. And I think there's alsokind of solves the mystery of
you know, or not necessarilymystery, but it kind of explains
why, all this time while you'vebeen in tech, you know, money
has always still been thedriving force, like tech by
choice hasn't necessarilychanged the fact that you're in
(38:29):
it mostly for the money, it'sbecause you're in your job,
because you're in your job,because you're in your job. And
pretty much no matter what youwould be doing with your life,
you would probably have somesort of community driven thing
around that. So even if you packthis all up and said, You know,
I don't want to do tech anymore,I am just going to be an artist,
you know, you would probably berunning some sort of community
(38:51):
based organization for art, youknow, like, it's not even so
much that that gave you purposeas much as it is. I'm Valerie,
of course, this is what I'mgoing to do. Of course, you
know,yeah, it's funny, you say the
art thing, because growing up, Ialways knew I was going to do
some type of nonprofit or sometype of community. But for the
longest time, it was a art Bay'snonprofit for kids that grew up
(39:13):
in the city I grew up in, like,I picked the building I would
buy and everything, and somehowit turned into tech by choice
instead.
And hey, I mean, tech is alucrative field. I mean, there's
there's absolutely, you know, apossibility that even if you
stay in tech, there's there's afuture where you get to still do
that. Eventually. Yeah, yeah,definitely. Not, not right now.
(39:41):
It looks like we're just aboutout of time. Is there? Is there
anything else that you'd like toshare with us? Aside from
promotions, I'll let you dopromotions and plugs in a
second. But is there anythingyou feel like you'd be remiss if
if you left without saying,I think the only thing I'm going
to share is that if someone'stelling me to get into tech,
look beyond coding, becausethey're 1000 Other things you
can do to make a good living.
(40:02):
You don't have to learn how tocode. So I wish I knew that.
Yeah, absolutely. such animportant point. Yeah. And and
to that point, ask all the war,a wide variety of people, you
know, whatever it is that you'reinterested in, ask a wide
variety of people don't go toone person, even if they seem
like the Pro, because we allonly know what we know. And what
(40:24):
I know, might not be useful toyou, you know, because I don't
really know what you're lookingfor. Yeah. That's great. I love
that. Valerie, thank you so muchfor coming on, man. This is this
is great. I do love how we gotto connect all these dots.
Because it's true. I mean, Ithink, I think when we don't
think about it in this way, butwhen we really stop and pause
(40:44):
and reflect on our life there,there are a lot of patterns. And
the way someone said it to meonce is like interest change,
but like core values don't. Andit seems like you know,
community is absolutely a corevalue of yours, and has been,
you know, pretty much since youwere born. Thanks. Thanks to
your mom. Yes, yes, definitely.
That's really cool. Well, whatwould you like to promote? Where
(41:08):
would you like to be found?
Um, follow me on Twitter,digital Black Hippy, give tech
by choice to follow. We areattacked by choice or on all
platforms. We have a YouTubechannel too. So if you're the
type of content, check us out onYouTube, give us a follow like
and subscribe. That's what theYouTube people say. Right? Yeah,
(41:28):
I think so. Yeah, like andsubscribe. Yeah. Yeah,
absolutely. And I'll say to youknow, if you are someone who is
interested in getting into thetech industry and feel, you
know, in any way, intimidated orunsure where to go, tech by
choice is a great resource touse can't recommend it enough.
Lucas, actually, former guest ofthe show, Lucas casera is the
(41:52):
financial planner. We connectedthrough tech by choice and
through Valerie's so you know,it's a great community of great
people who, you know, all wantto help each other out and all
want to, you know, make surethat they that they thrive in
this in this gold rush of anindustry.
Yes, that was a better plug thatI gave. So thank you.
(42:13):
Anytime, you know, I'm the I'mthe hype man over here. Yeah.
All right. Thank you so much,Valerie. I'll talk to you later.
Bye.
All right. Once again, that wasValerie Phoenix. Thank you
again, Valerie for coming ontothe show. You know, I love what
(42:35):
she's doing with tech by choice.
And seriously, no matter what itis that you're going through in
life? Are you experiencing aloss? Are you starting a new
venture? Are you redefining yourvalues, no matter what that is,
just find a group of like mindedpeople, it makes a world of a
difference. So I reallyappreciate what Valerie's doing
(42:55):
in the tech community. I justlove being able to be with
people when they have those ahamoments. It's so cool to me, you
know, the fact that the colorsfor tech by choice match the
colors of Valerie's mom'sdaycare. Like That is so cool to
me, you know, and it reallyshows how this service oriented
leadership is just a part of whoshe is. And I love creating
(43:17):
those moments with anyeverybody. So you know, if
you're, if you're feeling kindof stuck, if you feel like I
hear, you know, all these thingsthat Leo's saying with these
guests, but that's becausethey're doing these big things,
and that can never be me. Let'stalk seriously. The firt the
first step to really living inyour truth is understanding how
(43:40):
you got to where you are today.
And I love helping peoplenavigate that, you know, it's
it's work that I've been doingon myself for like 15 years now,
honestly, you know, and, yeah,we're gonna continue exploring
it with more guests every week.
It's looking more like I'm notgoing to close out the season
right now, I know I mentionedsomething about that last week,
(44:01):
but I think we're gonna keep onrolling for at least another
couple more months before beforewe wind things down. So again,
thank you so much for being onthis journey with me. And see
you next week. Stay evolving.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com