February 23, 2025 • 67 mins
Welcome to another wild ride in the Lethal Library with Stephanie and Dani as they unravel the tragic tale of Denise Williams. Picture this: a prison riot, heaps of drugs, and the unfortunate misuse of a young woman as an informant. Denise Williams, a 27-year-old informant for the Nampa Police Department, mysteriously vanished in September 1987, only for her body to resurface almost a year later. With details emerging about coercion by the police and a brutal murder orchestrated by drug dealers, this story brings out the gritty underbelly of a small Idaho town. Dive into the chaos, inconsistencies in police practices, and the aftermath, including a riot that ended with the murder of suspect Richard Holmes. This episode is packed with all the elements of a gritty crime saga!
Contact The Lethal Library at TheLethalLibrary@gmail.com. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dani (00:30):
Welcome to the Lethal Library.
Welcome, I'm Stephanie.
I'm Tani.
Stephanie (00:35):
And today, Dani is going to tell us another story,
which I've heard little tidbitsof.
Can I spoil it a little bit?
Yes! I've heard rumors of aprison riot.
Drugs.
Lots of drugs.
Lots of drugs.
And there's three main suspects,I guess, so it seems like a very
(00:57):
juicy tale.
Dani (00:59):
It's really hard when I'm, when I am researching these
because we don't just hang outto record, we're, we hang out
other times.
And I'm just like, oh my god, Ican't wait.
So hopefully I didn't build youup too much and hopefully you
enjoy it.
this is this is a messy one.
There's lots of people stuff.
Stephanie (01:19):
Okay, I will do my best to be keeping notes and.
Dani (01:24):
Was Denise Williams wanting to really help the Nampa
Police Department, or was sheforced?
What responsibility does theNampa Police Department hold in
this case?
In this story, there areundercover informants, lots of
drugs, and multiple murderers,and even a prison riot.
(01:44):
It's gonna be wild, folks.
1987.
The last time 27 year old DeniseWilliams was seen was on
September 18, 1987.
She left her house with a manshe knew and his friend to grab
some beers at a localconvenience store.
In December, the Nampa policeare asking for help to locate
(02:05):
her.
Stephanie (02:07):
A few months later, NPD, I'm already, we know the
NPD, not personally.
Dani (02:17):
The Nampa Police Department said Denise was an
informant for the department andhad helped solve at least seven
cases.
And they believe she is dead.
Stephanie (02:26):
She was helping them a lot, seven cases to be solved
because of her.
Dani (02:30):
Yeah, she knew what was going down.
Detective Alan Creech, adifferent Creech, which can I
just relation, was the bane ofmy existence during the Creech
research because he came up inso many, so many searches.
I'm just like you, Alan, I don'twant you Alan.
(02:51):
Detective Alan Creech said wehave tried to convince her that
her life was in danger.
The department found Deniseemployment and a place to live
in neighboring Boise.
But Denise refused to locate.
A close friend of Denise, LizMeininger, spoke out against the
police department.
(03:12):
Liz had last seen Denise fourdays before her disappearance.
Denise told her 24 hoursurveillance was being provided
and that she thought her lifewas in danger.
Liz said that Denise was askedthree different times by the MPD
to work as an informant.
And she finally agreed.
(03:32):
Pressure.
Well, they have a littlesomething on her.
Detective Creech met Denise whenhe had given her a hundred
dollar citation for themarijuana possession and a
summons to appear in court.
She had three plans.
In her house, that she washolding for a friend while they
(03:57):
moved.
Stephanie (03:59):
She's just being a plant mama.
Dani (04:01):
Yeah.
Come on, plant girlies.
Shouldn't you hold some plantsfor your friend?
Absolutely.
You gotta move.
Oh, you don't want them inside.
storage.
They'll be sad.
Stephanie (04:12):
No, bring him here.
We'll give him some sunlight.
Dani (04:16):
Liz said that the police told Denise that they would not
fine her and would dismiss thecharges if she agreed to work as
an informant
Stephanie (04:24):
for three plants.
That is wild.
I thought it would be somethingmuch, much worse.
But I mean, in Idaho, that isvery, very bad, very bad.
Dani (04:33):
Denise was financially financially.
Yeah.
Not doing well.
So a hundred dollar fine washuge for her and you know, if
you don't pay your fines you goto jail I mean so we can be like
a hundred bucks.
Well, this first of all is backin the 80s but also she didn't
have that kind of extra money,so
Stephanie (04:53):
No, and this starts the cycle of oh, so then I get
to go to jail.
I get to lose my job Maybe Ilose my car and my home And
Dani (05:01):
children.
Stephanie (05:02):
So then,
Dani (05:04):
desperate situation.
Detective Creech denied thatthere was a request, for
surveillance from Denise.
She just wanted to for fun,obviously.
Stephanie (05:14):
She's like, you know what, I've always wanted to be
an informant.
Dani (05:17):
Well, but I think, what, what Liz is saying is that she
was nervous.
what I'm understanding is thatshe wanted surveillance and
thought it was being providedfor her, so she wasn't sweating
it.
Stephanie (05:33):
She's like, they've got me, I've asked, they're
gonna be around.
Dani (05:37):
I've got them seven.
Yeah, like seven times and Itwasn't that big.
I don't know.
Nampa wasn't that big.
I don't know what They werethinking the police department
(05:58):
It would soon become obvious whowho would be the common link
Stephanie (06:03):
After seven.
Dani (06:04):
Yeah, so Creech said he did not force Denise to be an
informant He simply told herthere could be an that she could
be an informant When hercitation was issued, you know
how that went down.
Stephanie (06:18):
Well, and to have to do it seven times for a 100 fine
for three plants.
That's ridiculous.
Like I thought that we weregonna be like, oh she was
transporting on her boat 300pounds of cocaine.
Sure.
Yeah, I could see you having toreally provide something
multiple times, right?
(06:39):
Three plants.
Civilian possession.
This is wild that they hadsomeone that's not experienced
in this position.
Dani (06:51):
Two weeks after her citation was issued, Denise,
pled guilty to marijuanapossession.
And then she came to the policeand said she wanted to help.
Creech said, quote, she felt Godwas compelling her to help with
a drug problem.
She was under no compulsion towork with me.
(07:12):
I'm gonna, I'm gonna say fatmouth.
Stephanie (07:15):
You really, yes, I, I agree because it's like She had
to plead guilty still.
Dani (07:22):
Mm hmm.
Stephanie (07:23):
So what do they do?
Just waive her fine and put iton her record?
What did they, what was sheoffered in exchange?
Dani (07:28):
Exactly.
Stephanie (07:30):
I don't think that she was like, you know, since
you did catch me I did read myBible a few times and I've
decided this is my calling.
I don't think so.
Dani (07:40):
Detective Creech said people who want to become
informants must first sign acontract stating they are
volunteering for the position.
But sometimes police, quote,make deals with people to work
as informants in exchange forpaying citations.
Stephanie (07:54):
So it's not necessarily a hundred percent
voluntary in my eyes.
That's a little bit underduress.
Dani (08:00):
Corsive?
Stephanie (08:01):
You're not doing it just because you were bored one
day and said, you know what?
I've been thinking endlessly onwhat I can do to help the NPD.
I've been dreaming about it.
So I better just go there.
No, no big deal that if I haveto go to jail, I'll lose.
Dani (08:17):
Is my livelihood.
Stephanie (08:19):
I just wanna help.
Help these good
Dani (08:21):
boys and blue out.
No, Denise worked with thedepartment for three months for
a small fee, so I think she wasmaking a little money on the
side.
and I think that they paid hercitation, but also, in three
months, seven people get busted.
Stephanie (08:43):
That's
Dani (08:44):
very
Stephanie (08:44):
dangerous.
there's no way that certainpeople aren't realizing who's
running in certain circles andIt becomes very obvious very
fast.
What's the common denominator?
Dani (08:56):
According to Creech, Denise was a cut above the rest
of the informants.
Oh.
Yeah, seven in three months.
Stephanie (09:04):
They should have known and been like, slow down
girl.
Like, what are you doing toprotect yourself?
Because how do they not knowthat you're telling on them?
Dani (09:15):
Denise's sister, Diane Vaughn blames the Nampa police
for her disappearance.
Quote, if she was really upagainst a brick wall, if the
situation was as Creech says,why didn't they move her butt
out of state?
Because they are, they're comingout and they're saying, Oh, we
think she's probably dead,right?
(09:39):
After two months of her being,you know, disappearing.
If they knew anything, I mean,why would they?
Keep her, they're just gettingthe, getting it while the
getting's good.
I believe that.
Diane said the department shouldhave forced her sister to leave
if they were that concernedabout her well being
Stephanie (09:59):
or at least been like we know the timeline of
employment as an informant andthis isn't good.
Like you're, I mean you're
Dani (10:09):
crushing it, but you're also putting your life in severe
danger.
Yeah.
Instead, Of moving her out ofthe area, they found her a
minimum wage job in Boise, butshe never secured a place for
her to live.
Quote, she, this is her sister,quote, she didn't get any credit
(10:29):
for what she's done for theNampa police.
Now there's the possibility thatshe's dead, and now that's her
fault?
Isn't she entitled to theprotection we're afforded by
law?
The police seem to be writingthis case off and saying, oh,
it's just another druggie, andthat's not right.
According to Diane, Deniserefused to leave Nampa after
contacting 17 different partiesabout renting a place in Boise.
(10:53):
17?
Yeah, she's trying
Stephanie (10:57):
to find a place.
That's all.
And we know how it is withrenting.
They want an application,probably an application fee.
I'm sure it wasn't as much backthen, but still.
You don't have 17 if they're 10each.
Now, we're talking 170 like
Dani (11:15):
well, they determined these places that were renting
had determined that She couldn'tafford rent and daycare costs on
the minimum wage job that thatthe MPD had found for her over
there So so
Stephanie (11:30):
she's it was they've placed her in between a rock and
a hard place.
She's like we're doing our best
Dani (11:35):
Yeah, here's a minimum wage job in Boise And you know,
historically, Boise has beenmore expensive than Nampa.
And she might have been gettingaid here in Canyon County.
Who knows, you know, how thatwas working.
But, she tried to go over there.
And, by the way, I don't thinkthat that would have
Stephanie (11:56):
No, Nampa to Boise is a 20 minute drive.
20 to 45 minutes, dependingwhere you're going.
Dani (12:02):
Hmm, and traffic.
We
Stephanie (12:03):
do have freeways here, contrary to popular
belief.
There is a freeway that willlead you straight from Nampa to
Boise, or even Caldwell toBoise.
Can you believe it?
I know.
Like you can get somewhere.
There's paved roads.
but no.
Multiple lanes too.
I mean it was small enough backthen that I can see it could
have made some difference.
(12:25):
But, like you said, moving atown over, two towns over,
that's not gonna do anything.
Dani (12:33):
Meridian didn't even count as a, as a town.
It's like a half a town at thatpoint.
Yeah, it was a town and a halfover.
It's huge now, so.
Diane first reported her sistermissing at 9pm on September
19th.
Diane called Detective Creech athome on September 20th.
(12:53):
The family knew what was goingdown.
I mean, for her sister to havethis detective's number at home.
Diane called Detective Creech athome on September 20th, and he
said, quote, She probably wentout and got drunk someplace and
fell asleep.
Oh, this is just rude.
If I was, oh my god, I'd belivid if I was her sister.
(13:14):
I mean, and she is, she's upset.
Diane says her sister has neverbeen irresponsible to her
children or her family.
She would have never gone outall night and not come back.
Stephanie (13:24):
And just for that to be your first response, even if
you're thinking it, maybe if youdid know something, that's
Dani (13:31):
How about the seven people that she helped bust?
Stephanie (13:35):
Yeah, this is probably your best informant.
You said a cut above the rest.
Dani (13:39):
A cut above.
Stephanie (13:42):
That's so fucking frustrating.
I can't imagine how awful thatwould be to be sitting at your
house as a sister and be like,She's done all this for you.
She Are you gonna at least gofucking look for her?
You are the law.
You're involved in heractivities that could put her in
Dani (14:00):
danger.
Are you going to go look forher?
Yeah.
Creech told Denise he would golook for her sister on Monday.
Stephanie (14:09):
Next business day.
We'll take three to fourbusiness weeks, we'll look into
it.
Dani (14:14):
A little over a week before her disappearance,
Denise's last provided a tipthat led to the arrest of
Richard Holmes on September10th.
Over 100, 000 worth of drugswere seized, which included 51
marijuana plants, 10 grams ofcocaine, 176 grams of loose
(14:35):
marijuana.
8 grams of meth, and to round itout, 4 hits of LSD.
Stephanie (14:40):
Just a nice variety.
Dani (14:46):
They were druggin
Stephanie (14:48):
And the all inclusive store, this was like the Walmart
of drugs.
What do you need?
Dani (14:53):
See a little meth, a little LSD?
Well, anything you need.
they also, and this becomes,important later.
They also found 7, 000 in cash.
So, these, these guys had cash,they're doing the drugs.
Stephanie (15:07):
And when you get busted for drugs like this, they
can take anything that theythink is associated.
Yeah, they
Dani (15:13):
took a Chevy Nova.
Do you know where the house wasat?
I had to, it said CaldwellBoulevard.
Oh, shit.
But back in the day, CaldoBoulevard, there was like more
property up there, like, uh, itwas right by CWI, uh, out there.
Oh, that campus.
It's by like the chef's storeand everything.
(15:34):
Yeah, yeah.
There was a, a mobile home outthere.
So that's, that's in town now.
Yeah.
Um, back in the eighties waskind of a little bit rural, a
little bit rural.
so that 7, 000 that they found,there was more of it somewhere
because Richard Holmes postedBond the very next day.
Stephanie (15:58):
Or he had some very influential and powerful like
people, maybe I shouldn't sayinfluential, so he had some
people that were bankrolling himor involved with him that had
money.
Yeah.
This is what it, if you find agal with three pot plants she's
watching for someone and Maybeit's a lie if you want to
(16:20):
believe that it's a lie orwhatever.
Three plans.
But, this is not someone that'swell established in the drug
world.
This is someone that's probablybeing invited to parties or
Maybe has some friends that shehears a name.
This is like punching above yourability like
Dani (16:45):
this was above her pay grade.
Stephanie (16:46):
Yeah, she should have been exposing someone with That
many drugs and I feel bad forher and I wish she would have
maybe realized that I'm notblaming her Because she just
thought that she was gonna betaken care of.
Dani (17:03):
But also the MPD putting her in that position greedy
fucks People are going to figurethat out.
Yes.
I mean, we're talking the 80s.
Maybe there was 25, 000 peoplein Nampa.
Maybe.
22.
I didn't, but I just knowgrowing up.
It was definitely under 30, 000people.
And 7 people have been bustedfor drugs when this lady's been
(17:24):
around.
And she had to testify againstthese people.
There's no secret informants.
Okay.
Stephanie (17:34):
Yeah, she needed to be in the witness protection or
out of state immediately.
There's.
This is wild to me.
Dani (17:41):
Richard Holmes was arrested again on December 7th,
1987, for second degreekidnapping, aggravated battery,
grand theft, possession ofcocaine, and carrying a
concealed weapon.
So, obviously, not concernedabout a September arrest with
100, 000 for the drugs.
Stephanie (18:02):
I guess not.
Still out gallivanting and
Dani (18:07):
I can't wait to
Stephanie (18:08):
hear about this kidnapping
Dani (18:09):
thing later.
It's so, you're like, what?
Is this a movie?
It sounds like
Stephanie (18:15):
a
Dani (18:16):
movie.
In 1988, Ronald Eugene Wages,35, is arrested on a kidnapping
charge on February 10th.
There we go with that middleEugene name again.
As I was just thinking that.
SO FUCKING POPULAR! He wasalready in the Canning County
(18:40):
Jail where he had been sinceJanuary 5th on drug charges.
In late February, a grand jurywas formed to investigate the
probable homicide of Denise.
Meanwhile, the police continueto search for Denise's body,
believed to be located in theSquaw Creek area south of
Marsing, Idaho.
The grand jury indicts fourpeople for the disappearance of
(19:02):
Denise.
Richard Holmes, 33, for criminalkidnapping, and he's also being
held on intimidating witnessesand obstructing of police
officers.
Police officer.
Three others are indicted aswell, but that information is
not released to the publicbecause it's a grand jury.
They don't have to do that.
Oh, you're right.
Stephanie (19:23):
on March 4th, Holmes wife, Deborah, was arrested for
a February 21st theft.
She's accused of stealing toolsfrom the state highway district
building and banks.
You know those buildings.
Yes.
The big brown buildings.
People who have driven that wayshould know.
They surely know.
In court records filed in April,interviews from two
(19:44):
acquaintances of Holmes wererevealed.
The two men said they werecoerced into taking Denise into
a remote place in Owyhee County,and they believed that she was
going to be killed.
I thought they were going tokill her.
I thought they were going toYep.
And I was like, you know what,but I got a dentist appointment
(20:05):
tomorrow and Sigh.
Both men face charges and arebeing held.
The two men said they trickedDenise Into going into the
desert to a pre arranged meetingplace near Squaw Creek on
September 18th.
One man said, quote, Holmes saidshe was a problem.
(20:27):
Holmes asked one of the men,quote, if it came down to it,
would we have the guts to pullthe trigger to kill her, you
know?
And I told him no.
Both of us did.
Told him no repeatedly.
Holmes then said he would lookat her like an animal, cut her
throat, and let her bleed.
(20:48):
Yikes.
So many drugs.
I mean, bad person, but drugstoo.
Holmes said if she's not incourt to testify against him for
sales, all they can get him foris possession.
And this is the 51 plants andthe foreheads, you know, all of
(21:09):
that stuff.
According to the records, thetwo men picked up Denise and
went to Middleton, boughttequila, and drove her around
for a while, drinking andsmoking marijuana.
Now I'm just a little sidetrackhere about Middleton, so if
(21:29):
you're not from here or don'tunderstand Idaho We have, state
run liquor stores, but in somelittle towns where they don't
have a state run liquor storebecause it would be too
expensive, they do allow other,like a gas station, convenience
(21:50):
store.
I know, I have made runs tothis, you know they want,
because they're open later.
They're open later and they cansell later and, I mean, liquor
stores are, we're shutting downlike at nine o'clock, I don't
know, I think it's like thathere.
Right now too.
It's like nine o'clock, right?
I'm not out that late.
I don't know but you can't buyliquor after like nine o'clock.
(22:12):
You can go to the bar You can goto the bar, but you cannot
you're gonna be like at 901decide that you want to get tore
up And listen to music and playsome cards with your buddies And
go buy a bottle of whiskeybecause it's, it's fucking
closed.
So, but there are some staterun, there's, I don't even think
there's one around here anymore.
(22:34):
But you knew you could drive toMiddleton.
No, that was the place and itwas, it's kind of a straight
shot from Nampa.
Like, so if you have someonethat's sober enough to drive
there.
And it's after hours, you go ona little field trip to
Middleton, and you get yourbooze there and come back, and
Cause I think you could buy itthere till like 11.
I know exactly the store.
(22:55):
Maybe even later.
I know the exact conveniencestore.
So, we've all done it.
So, they drove her out there,picked up a bottle of tequila,
they were doing their thing.
Near midnight, the men tookDenise out to the Marsing area.
where they were confronted by aman with a shotgun, who they
believed is wages.
(23:17):
I don't think these guys knewexactly what they were getting
into, to be fair.
Okay.
The man directed them to removeDenise's pants and underwear and
tore open her blouse.
They also tied her up withshoestrings and poured vodka on
her.
A.
(23:37):
Vodka not necessary.
B.
What's up with the fuckingshoestrings?
Well, and why does she need tobe naked?
Like Yeah, it's just show ofpower.
It's stupid.
But then the men were told toleave.
Thanks for the delivery.
Bye.
(23:57):
So, At what point though didthese guys be like, Mmm, that's
not what I thought was gonnahappen.
Well, yeah, and it's just onceagain, A common thing we hear is
If men aren't around, who'sgonna protect these women?
From who?
Other men that they do not standup to.
(24:21):
Like oh, yeah, she's now nakedand covered in vodka and we're
yeah, I guess I'll go on aboutmy day Weird, I cannot imagine
being put in a situation likethat and being like Oh, you
know, I do have to run a fewmore errands tonight, like,
okay, bye.
And just go home?
Like, what the fuck?
(24:43):
Police located a thong and acomb believed to belong to
Denise in the area, but havebeen unable to locate her body.
And when I say a thong, I mean aflip flop.
Thank you for clarifying,because it could be either.
(25:03):
It was a flip flop.
Wages and homes are finallyindicted on murder charges.
In May an in, this is kind of alittle sidetrack here.
Just to let you know, in May aninmate in the Canyon County
Jail, Juan Rivas is seeking$500,000.
(25:25):
Rivas was severely beaten afterbe being put in the same cell
with his co-defendant.
Dani (25:30):
Giglio Medina.
And wages the two men attackedRivas wages grabbed him from
behind and called him a snitchand began hitting him On the
face and chest wages told RivasHe was going to rape him and
beat him because he heard Rivaswas talking to the police about
(25:50):
the drug situation or Nampa
Stephanie (25:53):
Yeah,
Dani (25:54):
so that just let you know what kind of The reason I
included this is because, wages.
There was some shit happening.
And he's in jail, so he's sober.
He's just He's in jail andsober.
He's just a bad dude.
The tort claim states that Wagesis known to be a dangerous
(26:18):
criminal who had severely beatenanother inmate just a month
before.
Why are they putting him in acell with other people?
Stephanie (26:27):
You know, my question is, why don't they give them a
razor blade?
Dani (26:31):
With a toothbrush.
Oh my god.
This is, I'm, Canning County,okay?
It's not, it's not the IdahoState Correctional Facility.
They don't know about the razorsand the toothbrush.
It doesn't seem like they caremuch, but They don't.
(26:53):
Okay.
During a sentencing hearing forHolmes on an unrelated
kidnapping charge.
Stephanie (27:00):
Ha ha ha ha ha.
They were just kidnapping leftand right.
They
Dani (27:04):
were.
he said his abuse of drugs beganafter his home burned down last
summer.
I don't know how it burned down.
They probably were doing drugs.
Meth lab, who knows.
In July, Holmes enters a guiltyplea on four felony drug
charges.
Prosecutors agree to a sentenceof five to ten years in prison,
(27:26):
running concurrently with fiveto ten year prison term he
received earlier this year for asecond degree kidnapping of
Ricky Simonis.
Stephanie (27:37):
Okay.
They are
Dani (27:38):
kidnapping.
It's coming around.
The three other drug chargeswill be dropped.
The four felony charges stemfrom the September 87 drug raid.
A mistrial was declared in Mayafter a thousand dollars of
cocaine was discovered missingin the evidence.
Stephanie (28:00):
Oh, how does that happen?
Dani (28:03):
Hmm.
Stephanie (28:05):
Who has access to the evidence rooms?
Dani (28:09):
The NPD.
Stephanie (28:12):
They were having a ball.
An A ball.
Dani (28:16):
An A ball.
I don't even know shit aboutdrugs, but I know that there's
an A ball.
Is that a thing?
That's right, right?
That is right.
Yeah.
Stephanie (28:26):
They were having an eight ball.
They were having a time.
Woo.
Oh, shit.
Oh, props MPD.
I bet that was a
Dani (28:40):
memorable time.
On August 2nd, Denise's body isfinally located.
Finally.
I mean, it's almost a wholeyear.
About 35 miles south of Marsing,Idaho.
It was about a hundred yards offof Cow Creek Road, approximately
(29:01):
10 miles off of Highway 95.
So it was one of those dirtroads back there.
Yeah,
Stephanie (29:09):
Cow Creek Road sounds familiar.
Dani (29:12):
Yeah.
Hmm.
There's people listening thatknow exactly where that's at.
Yeah.
The body was in a deep ravine,partially concealed by rocks.
August is busy, cause also inAugust, Nampa Police Chief
Marshall Brisbane asked thestate to review the city
procedures regarding druginformants.
(29:33):
Mmm, like mmm, because peoplewere pissed! Just like we're
like, how does, how does thiseven happen?
Right?
Seven in three months?
You gotta realize the riskthere.
The Idaho Bureau of Narcotics.
Didn't even know that was such athing, but there it is.
(29:54):
Reviewed the policies, Reviewedthe policies and stated they are
essentially the same as theState Bureau, which doesn't mean
shit to me.
Stephanie (30:04):
For me, I'm like y'all just had how much cocaine
go missing from your evidenceroom.
Idaho Bureau of Narcotics is ofdoing narcotics.
Like what are we?
We do cocaine the best.
Like, what the fuck?
So, it doesn't mean much.
Dani (30:23):
In August, Maxwell Mad Max Hoffman is charged on August
22nd with the fatal stabbing ofDenise.
Stephanie (30:34):
Really?
Dani (30:36):
Well, they finally found her body.
Hoffman is already in prison forsecond degree kidnapping of a
man named Ricky.
It
Stephanie (30:44):
was the Wild West.
Dani (30:47):
So, Holmes was also charged with the Ricky Simona's
kidnapping.
Okay.
Ronald Wages pleads guilty tofirst degree murder before Judge
Doolittle.
In September, he testified thatRichard Holmes ordered the
revenge slaying.
Wages also testified Denise waskilled by him and Hoffman on
(31:10):
orders from Holmes.
But Holmes was not present whenthe murder took place.
Wade just said he stabbed Denisein the heart when she pleaded to
be put out of her misery afterHoffman first had slit her
throat.
This is brutal, guys.
Stephanie (31:26):
No
Dani (31:26):
shit.
Yeah.
There'll be a little bit more.
It's,
Stephanie (31:33):
it was a brutal murder
Dani (31:34):
and everybody.
There was
Stephanie (31:36):
a lot of people involved.
Dani (31:38):
A lot of people and everybody was high and drunk and
just Thinking that theirScarface almost So, you know
those guys that I'm gonna, thoseguys that she, that took her out
to the desert,
Stephanie (31:55):
yeah,
Dani (31:56):
one of them, Longstreet, 19 years old, testified for the
defense with a different story.
He said Wages ordered the trioout of the car, pointing a
shotgun at them.
Wages then told the men to tieDenise up with the bootlaces
before leaving.
Longstreet and his buddy Slausonare facing second degree
(32:18):
kidnapping charges, but they arecooperating with the authorities
in exchange for a six month jailterm.
How do you get, why would thiseven be a negotiating factor if
they actually delivered a personto literally
Stephanie (32:35):
be slaughtered?
Well, you wonder if they werejust like, oh pick up our
friend.
Dani (32:41):
But with her being tied up, the vodka, I don't know.
Mm.
It's like, oh, this, this is alittle bit more violent than,
this is not a talking to.
Stephanie (32:56):
What people will go along with when there's some
weird power structure, andDrugs! Men.
Dani (33:07):
Holmes and Hoffman arrived later in separate trucks.
Holmes then confronted Denise.
He asked her why she busted him,and she replied it was her job.
He kicked Denise in the facewhile she was sitting down, and
then told her, You're dead,bitch.
(33:28):
That makes me so
Stephanie (33:31):
She should have never been put in this position.
I cannot believe this is overthree pot plants.
Exactly.
I mean, and I mean it doesn'tsurprise me, just recently
they're like, there's a bill onthe Idaho legislature that any
possession is 300 fine ofmarijuana.
And everyone is going and payingall of Oregon's taxes to get it.
(33:53):
Like, Oregon has so much taxmoney from Idaho.
That's the
Dani (33:58):
only reason I'll say go Oregon, because otherwise it's a
shit show, but, Before drivingoff, Holmes told Hoffman.
You know what to do.
Wages and Hoffman snorted somecocaine and meth several times.
Damn.
Before killing Denise.
(34:20):
I wonder, and I don't know this,I wonder how long this was drawn
out for her.
Stephanie (34:28):
I bet it was a long time.
I've heard that meth time, like,Meth time doesn't even exist?
No, it doesn't and especially,you know, it sounds like they
had talked about it before ofcould you do it and it's It
seemed like there was a lot ofpushback from others, and so
it's like Well, that was the
Dani (34:44):
two guys, the two younger kids, the 19 year olds, that
Yeah,
Stephanie (34:49):
so you can say that you would do it all you want,
but when it comes to actuallydoing it, and it doesn't sound
like she's fighting or anything,and Now they're trying to like,
get up the fucking balls.
Get the meth courage.
Yeah, to do it.
Meth courage.
Dani (35:06):
Richard Holmes was the one who led the, led the police to
Denise's body.
Stephanie (35:10):
Really?
Dani (35:13):
On September 25th, a riot breaks out at the Idaho State
Penitentiary.
Uh oh.
The riot caused hundreds ofthousands of dollars in damage
and resulted in the stabbingmurder of an inmate.
Inmates were preparing ahomemade liquor called Squawky.
Stephanie (35:34):
Let's go Squawky.
I thought it was hooch.
up.
Dani (35:38):
Right?
Stephanie (35:38):
Maybe there's different brands.
They're like, we make ours on anorange base and others make
theirs on a grape base.
Some do apple, but we doSquawky.
Dani (35:48):
Do you think there's ever any, like, yeast involved?
Like, do you think that maybe,who knows?
You know,
Stephanie (35:55):
all you have I do not know how to make liquor.
All you have is time, so.
And especially now with theresources, you could just call
someone and be like, Hey, Googlehow to make liquor in, uh,
incarceration.
I'd be scared
Dani (36:09):
to get poisoned.
Stephanie (36:12):
I think people might be scared, but,
Dani (36:14):
Look, you drink it first, and I'll There's some
desperation.
If you're not dead in two hours,then I'll have some with you.
I would be immediately kickedout of that group.
You don't get any! None for you!You Yeah.
No.
If you're not gonna partake, youdon't get to wait and see if we
(36:35):
die.
You suck.
Bye.
I'll find a new group offriends.
Let me go to Gblock.
Play some cards and I'll drinksome Kool Aid.
When the guards moved in to takethe squawky drink, the riot
started.
60 well armed officers assembledat the prison nearly two hours
(36:59):
after the 78 inmate unit waslost to rioters.
78! They're like, there's afucking lot of us.
A bonfire had been set, almostevery piece of glass in sight
was destroyed.
Dozens of holes were punched inwalls and cells.
Okay, Kyle, damn.
(37:21):
The inmates surrendered afterchoking on the smoke from their
own fires.
Oh.
That was Uppy! Somebody open afucking window in here! I can't
breathe! I Somebody open awindow at this place.
Like, bruh.
Stephanie (37:40):
Too much on the bonfire, too much, too much.
Sucking all the oxygen out ofhere.
Dani (37:46):
That made me laugh so hard.
This is fucking funny though.
They're like,
Stephanie (37:49):
oh, mmm.
This is the mistake that Rickand Jared would make in a prison
riot.
They'd be like, we know how tomake a fucking fire.
Let's burn this
Dani (37:59):
shit down.
Oh, wait.
No, we can't breathe.
We can't breathe.
We can't escape.
We can't.
Oh, but I bet
Stephanie (38:07):
you it was a sexy fire.
It's a, I'm sure it was a verysexy fire.
They're like, this bonfire isbadass.
Why are they not functioning?
Dani (38:19):
Uh, after nearly three and a half hours, the dust settled
and Richard Holmes was foundstabbed to death in his cell.
Oh God.
A hole was punched through homecell hollow block wall baby
building in prisons
Stephanie (38:35):
out of cinder block.
Just stacking some cinderblocks, so like, that looks
good.
Yeah, little mortar in between.
If someone can punch and breakthrough it.
This is, I think I said on oneof the earlier episodes, a lot
of these prisons were just smokeand mirrors.
Like, they had all of the, onthe outside, the sheen of
(38:59):
security.
But,
Dani (39:02):
you gotta fill those ho I have dropped cinder blocks
before and broke them.
Like, it's not super durable,like, you can build walls out of
them, but you could also, I feelconfident that I could punch a
hole through one, I mean Iprobably could.
Or at least
Stephanie (39:21):
chisel your way, or if like, over
Dani (39:23):
time, chip away.
Quit being cheap, state ofIdaho.
That shit should have beenfilled with concrete.
It was hollow,
Stephanie (39:35):
like you just, it's like Legos.
You just stack them and you'regood.
No one can get through that.
Nobody.
Shawshank is like, hold my beer.
Yeah,
Dani (39:45):
he would have been out like in two days.
You had nothing but time.
Nothing but time.
Corrections director Al Murphytold the Joint Finance
Appropriations Committee thatthe main cause of the riot is
three things.
First, inmates are dangerous.
The second cause is, inmates aredangerous.
(40:08):
And the third cause is, inmatesare dangerous.
I'm sorry,
Stephanie (40:12):
that is, who, who is this again, please?
Dani (40:17):
this is, the Corrections Director, Al Murphy.
Stephanie (40:22):
Al Murphy, nothing tells me that you're terrible at
your job more than that answer.
That, I'm, if, if some type ofhazard happens or bullshittery
happens at your job.
Not my fault, not my fault.
It's almost like, well customersare dicks.
(40:42):
Like, if you have a failingrestaurant, customers are dicks.
No.
Like, you, you give threereasons and you give those three
repetitive reasons, you shouldhave never been put in that
position to begin with.
What a piss poor level ofleadership.
Bullshit.
Dani (41:00):
A recording.
Made by an Idaho State PoliceSergeant outside of Holmes sales
block, recorded Holmes calling asuspect out by name and pleading
with him not to injure him.
Not to enter him?
Not to injure.
Oh god.
Stephanie (41:21):
Wow! This is very racy.
I mean, still not to injure isbig.
Maybe we should start that overbecause I'm like, I mean, this
is the eighties.
You don't have a recording thingon yourself.
How did you catch this?
Dani (41:38):
So just so you know, they called it a pocket recording,
which I'm assuming he had like alittle cassette recorder, you
know, like the mini tapes orsomething.
The name Shorty was repeatedseveral times, although the
police could not see into Holmescell.
A bloody palm print found inHolmes cell also belonged to
(41:59):
Shorty.
A first degree murder warrantwas issued against Rodney Shorty
Areza, 21.
I'm gonna go with it.
Areza?
That
Stephanie (42:12):
sounds good.
Dani (42:14):
Shorty was serving up to 10 years on robbery of a Bliss
bar and the battery of anemployee in Gooding County.
Two others are suspected in themurder of Holmes.
John Sorgren, 36, and MerleLaMere, 25.
When asked about the motive forthe murder, Ada County Sheriff
(42:35):
Vaughn Killeen stated, Eraziawas trying to establish a
reputation in the prison asbeing tough.
Erazia is about 5 foot 4 inchestall, but weighs about 190
pounds.
Big boy.
Thick boy.
He was just 15 when he robbedthe YN bar in 1983 and was tried
(42:56):
as an adult.
He, shorty struck Jake Overfelt,a 56 year employee, over the
head with several whiskeybottles and kicked him in the
neck and left him for dead.
Jake was cleaning up afterclosing hours.
People
Stephanie (43:15):
don't, I mean, I think bartending's a dangerous
job.
No shit, we've been through thisa few times, like.
Dani (43:23):
Colleen also stated that Holmes may have been killed
because he was labeled a snitch.
How ironic, which I feel
Stephanie (43:31):
like is probably the case.
Well, you're grasping at strawsHe was looking at ways to get
out of this and have it only bea possession And who knows if he
wasn't
Dani (43:43):
making a deal, right?
Let me tell you where the
Stephanie (43:45):
body's at
Dani (43:46):
cuz or let me technically he wasn't there.
He wasn't there.
He left He just ordered thekilling right?
So he thought maybe he could getout
Stephanie (43:57):
and he's probably got some great With the variety of
drugs.
It was a smorgasbord.
Of drugs.
You're, you have multiplecontacts.
That you could probably be like,Eh, I don't really like that
guy.
I'll turn him in and get acouple, a reduction on my
sentence or the charge.
(44:18):
Sure, sure.
I agree.
Alright, Holmes.
So, possible snitch.
Dani (44:25):
In a jailhouse interview with the Idaho statesman.
Erasea said, first of all, theseattorneys had to be pulling
their fucking hair, like, quittalking, dude, the Idaho
statesman, just shut the fuckup.
But in his jailhouse interview,Erasea said, I didn't do
nothing.
(44:46):
He had no motive to kill Holmesbecause he is scheduled for
release in the summer of 89.
Quote, I only got 9 or 10 monthsleft on a 10 year sentence.
What kind of fool do you think Iam to go out and commit a murder
when I'm about to get out?
It's a pretty good point.
(45:07):
In October, Debra Holmes putguilty to several charges, some
stemming from the theft inFebruary from the highway
district, as well as welfarefraud and drug charges.
She is sentenced to probation.
And I'm convinced she gotsentenced to probation because
her husband died.
Stephanie (45:26):
Yeah.
Dani (45:27):
In October, a breakdown between Canyon and Hawaii
counties regarding who is payingand who is trying what.
Because, you know, the drug bustwas here, they kidnapped her
from, from Canyon County, butthey actually found her in
Hawaii County.
Multi
Stephanie (45:42):
county.
Dani (45:43):
And they were trying to work it out, but it just, it's
not happening.
Stephanie (45:48):
Well, and the NPD is like, if we can't have whatever
drugs those are, how are wegoing to steal them?
So, if you let us have the, Imean, this is all me making up
things, but they have a trackrecord of dipping into that
evidence room and maybe theyjust really wanted that
evidence.
(46:08):
I don't know who has it, butNPD, this wasn't your shining
decade for sure.
Holmes Attorney
Dani (46:17):
Keene! Make it another appearance.
Blame prosecutors for filingcourt documents that included
information about HolmesCorporation with the
authorities.
So they did.
Little cooperation.
Yeah, but they filed it and thenit was publicly.
It was public.
Publicly.
Public er.
(46:38):
Thank you.
In November, there's a completefallout from the investigation.
The Hawaii County Coroner,Harold Mick Craven, resigns.
He's pissed.
He said that the sheriff hidDenise's body from him for two
and a half days, and he wasnever taken to the scene.
The coroner.
What
Stephanie (46:58):
is going on here?
Dani (47:00):
Well, they knew they fucked up and were like, I don't
I kind of got the feeling, sothe body was found in, I'm just,
sorry, recollecting my mind, myresearch.
The body was found in WaiheeCounty, which is where Craven
was.
But they took the body to CanyonCounty, and the Canyon County,
(47:22):
coroner, thank you, actually didthe autopsy.
And Craven was only notifiedlike an hour or so before.
and he's basically like, I can'tdo my job like this.
A coroner is A number one.
but the sheriff in Hawaii Countybasically told him like, this is
(47:42):
my body.
Oh, and
Stephanie (47:45):
he's
Dani (47:46):
like,
Stephanie (47:46):
alright, well, fuck you, I'm out.
So he just
Dani (47:50):
quit, he said, I can't, I can't do, he, he said, I cannot
do my job.
If this is how it's gonna go, sohe quit.
Stephanie (47:57):
So, I feel like this ties into the greater theme of
fuckery in law enforcement.
Because for, that might soundtrivial on, at surface level.
But if this type of shit's goingon, and this was the last straw
for this person.
(48:17):
So it sounds like to me,recognizing things, that Yeah.
A professional, in a coroner'ssense, was like This is it.
I'm done.
I can't even be doing what I'mpaid to do
Dani (48:34):
because that's his is He's supposed to go out there and
take pictures and look ateverything and look at the
evidence He didn't get thatopportunity and then just to
haul him off to another County.
He's totally being undermined
Stephanie (48:46):
Yeah, so and I can just about guarantee this wasn't
the first time.
Yeah,
Dani (48:52):
cuz I'm sure it
Stephanie (48:53):
had happened Yeah, and PD you were dipping into
that evidence room
Dani (48:59):
We have moved on to 1989.
1989, we're almost to the 90sfolks.
Which is like, what, 15 yearsago?
It was like,
Stephanie (49:07):
yeah,
Dani (49:08):
15 years ago.
In a preliminary hearing forEurasia, a fellow inmate
tearfully testified that itwasn't Shorty that killed
Holmes.
The inmate, Jerry Mills, saidtwo other inmates stabbed
Holmes.
He would not name them becausehe was afraid for his life.
(49:28):
Mills cell was directly acrossfrom Holmes.
He said inmates wearing bandanasand stocking caps over their
faces used pipes to break a holeinto Holmes cell.
They used knives attached to mophandles and pipes to try and
stab Holmes.
Stephanie (49:45):
Like, poking and prodding?
Dani (49:48):
Yeah, but they got in there.
I
Stephanie (49:50):
don't know if that's how it started.
Dani (49:54):
Quote, I could see a guy stab Holmes in the stomach area
a few times and heard Holmessay, no, no shorty.
Holmes reached up and pulled thestocking cap off of the man's
face.
I seen who, I seen who it was.
(50:15):
Unquote.
The inmate left Holmes's celland about 10 minutes later,
another inmate entered.
With his face covered, quote, helaid Holmes body out flat,
rolled him over, pulled hisshirt back, and started stabbing
him, it seems like a hundredtimes, unquote.
(50:36):
oh, that's, it was brutalmurder.
In February, Longstreet issentenced to one year in the
Canyon County Jail for a plea.
to second degree kidnapping.
That was the other fella thatthey, she went out drinking with
under false pretenses.
To only get one year.
Stephanie (50:57):
Especially knowing what happened.
Mm
Dani (51:00):
hmm.
In March, Hoffman's trialfinally began.
In opening statements, theprosecutor says after Hoffman
learned of his arrest on firstdegree murder, he slammed down
the phone and yelled, I killedthat bitch for a guy, and now he
won't bomb me out of jail.
(51:21):
So
Stephanie (51:21):
you thought these were your bros.
Drugs.
Dani (51:26):
A pathologist testified that Denise died from a blow to
the head with a large rock,despite her throat being slashed
and getting stabbed in theabdomen.
Stephanie (51:38):
That is so fucking awful.
It is.
Dani (51:42):
Wages testified that Denise stated, finish the job,
finish it.
And that's when Wages took ahunting knife and stabbed her
through the armpit.
So there's conflictingstatements here.
Abdomen.
Armpit, but she had the initialher throat was slit and she was
(52:03):
still alive.
That's wild.
So she there was some reportingthat Her throat was slashed her
testimony Actually that herthroat was slashed and that they
thought it was done and then shecame crawling up the ravine
(52:29):
right, so I think
Stephanie (52:32):
they probably thought it was like the movies.
They did a quick little sliceyand they're like.
Dani (52:37):
So then that's when they stabbed her again and then
started throwing rocks on her tohide the body thinking she was
dead when she wasn't.
She actually died from a blow tothe head.
It was a brutal murder.
How, it's so sad.
(52:58):
The pair then started throwingrocks over the body to conceal
it.
After five hours ofdeliberation, Hoffman was found
guilty of first degree murder.
You think?
Yeah.
After the trial, Denise'sparents, Bill and Lois Fisher,
said they didn't believe Hoffmanis guilty and should not be
(53:19):
sentenced to death.
Lois said, quote, I'm veryconfused.
We have information that I can'tdisclose.
I don't think it's over.
I know there is more.
They do believe That wages ispartially responsible for
Denise's death, but that heshouldn't be executed either.
(53:40):
They are naming the Nampa PoliceDepartment partially for her
death.
Fair.
Stephanie (53:47):
Fair to me too.
Dani (53:49):
In late March, Denise's body is finally released.
to her family so they can buryher.
That is so hard for me, whenthese families are having to
wait for these trials to bedone.
Mm
Stephanie (54:02):
hmm.
Dani (54:03):
This wasn't the first time.
And it will not be the lasttime.
Like they need some closure,finality to this situation.
In April, James Slauson wassentenced to one year in jail
and two years probation forkidnapping.
(54:23):
He was a kid, one of the kidsthat took her out there.
Hoffman is sentenced to death inJune.
Getting it done! Idaho! Also inJune, Arisa is on trial for the
murder of Holmes, moving veryquickly, and he testifies in his
(54:48):
own trial.
He said he climbed through thewall to see if Holmes was still
alive.
Holmes eyes were open and helifted his shirt to see if he
was breathing.
They have that recording though.
Of him saying, I don't know, Istruggle with this one.
Another inmate testified thatArazia said, quote, somebody go
(55:12):
in there and, and check thisout.
Nobody would step forward.
So Arazia went in to check forvital signs.
He looked like he was gonnathrow up.
He seemed to be in a daze, andthat was a quote from somebody
testifying.
Stephanie (55:30):
I'm sure it was wild in there.
They got a damn bonfire going.
Can't breathe.
Dani (55:35):
Horatio is found guilty of Holmes murder.
Wages is finally sentenced to afixed life prison term.
So no parole.
This is the guy who pled guilty,and he was testifying against
everybody.
Right.
Mad Max Hoffman.
Loses an appeal in July for thekidnapping charge of Ricky
(55:56):
Simona's on December 7th 1987.
This is the guy he kidnapped foryou Hoffman wages and homes went
to Ricky's home and beat himThen they put a gun barrel down
his throat and forced him tosign over his bill pick up for a
drug related debt.
Goddamn.
These guys were met with lots ofdrugs.
(56:19):
Ricky said they threatened tobreak his jaw if he didn't sign
over the truck.
So that's where all thosecharges came from.
Dude, you're out on bond forlike 100, 000 for the drugs and
you're just, lay low.
What are we doing?
Oh, he's like, that money's owedto me.
I'm gonna go get
Stephanie (56:36):
it.
Ricky.
We're gonna kidnap.
We're gonna.
Pistol whip, we're gonna do whatwe need to do.
Dani (56:42):
In October, the attorney, Cahill for Shorty requested a
new trial during the sentencingphase.
It's wild.
I don't even know how you dothis.
In court, Cahill called threeinmates who had previously
testified at the trial.
The three said they were readyto identify who actually broke
into Holmes cell and stabbedhim.
(57:04):
During the time in court, JudgeCarey denies the request for a
jury to sentence Arazia.
We all know where that's going.
Mm
Stephanie (57:15):
hmm,
Dani (57:15):
exactly.
Pauline Miyachi, the head of aprison reform group, testified
that another inmate confessed tokilling Holmes, along with two
other people.
Miyachi said Merle Lemurconfessed to the killing to a
religious counselor.
(57:37):
Lemur had testified in Shorty'strial, stating he did not kill
Holmes.
but refused to name who did themurder.
A volunteer spiritual leader,Paul Bull, said he spoke with
Lemur privately on August 29th.
Lemur told him he, Sorgin, andClark had broken into Holmes
(58:00):
cell.
Lemur told him He, Sorensen, andClark broke into Holmes cell.
Lemire said, I stabbed Holmesthree times, and then I didn't
like what I did.
I was doing.
And Sorrenton took the shiv andstabbed him multiple times.
Then Clark hit him in the headwith a shovel.
(58:23):
He also stated, I am not goingto stick my neck out on death
row.
Mm mm.
Aracia is sentenced to a fixed35 year sentence for the murder
of Holmes to run concurrent witha 20 year term for rioting.
Stephanie (58:41):
Alrighty then.
Dani (58:42):
They don't care.
Stephanie (58:43):
They're like, yeah, there was some fuckery, who
knows what.
What happened?
You're done
Dani (58:49):
in 1990.
Merle LaMer 27 is charged forthe murder of Holmes.
This is so confusing to me.
Laur said he was willing to takethe blame because he had nothing
to live for.
He saw three men climb throughthe hole into cell, but won't
(59:10):
say who In October, Laur pledguilty to second degree murder.
He said he did not actuallyparticipate in the stabbing, but
helped to raise Gia bust throughthe.
Well, he is sentenced to 32years to life.
After sentencing, he told thecourt that Orazio is innocent.
I want you to know the truth.
(59:31):
Rodney had no participation inthat.
Make up your mind, bro!
Stephanie (59:37):
Yeah, this is
Dani (59:39):
So I'm having a hard time with Shorty's conviction.
Mm hmm.
Stephanie (59:42):
I'm Because what really happened, I don't know if
we'll ever know.
Dani (59:47):
No.
So, of course, we have a Pills,a Pills, a Pills! Hoffman does
get Joan Fisher as an attorney.
I can't remember who she waswith.
Was it the Pratt brothers?
She was with somebody and in 97Hoffman files a petition with
the court to drop his appeal sothat he can be executed all the
(01:00:11):
wells
Stephanie (01:00:12):
Really?
Dani (01:00:13):
1998 Hoffman is granted his wish and an execution date
is given attorney Fisher sayshospital Hoffman is not capable
of making that decision to drophis appeals and a stay is
granted.
Like he's too depressed You knowall that 2002 U.
S.
District Court Judge B.
(01:00:35):
Lynn Windmill Issued an orderfor Hoffman to be resentenced.
This is because he was denied alawyer during his pre sentencing
interview Idaho, get ittogether.
And in 2003, sentences tossedout for Hoffman, the federal
appellate court says juries, notjudges, have to determine
(01:00:56):
aggravating circumstances andsentence the criminals.
Which we've seen time and timeand time again.
Again, yeah.
In 2006, the 9th U.
S.
Circuit Court of Appeal rulesthat Hoffman has to be released
or re offered a plea deal.
(01:01:17):
That was, that he originallyturned down, and then there's
nothing.
There's nothing until Radiosilence.
2014.
Stephanie (01:01:26):
Damn.
Dani (01:01:28):
Hoffman is discharged.
What does that mean?
He's out.
Released?
I don't know.
I don't know.
What exactly?
He's not in jail anymore.
I don't know if he's dead.
I don't know these things I wishI did.
If I had money to go down to thecourthouse and pay their
(01:01:48):
ridiculous four 50 a page, Iwould know but I don't know.
and in 2020, wages isdischarged.
Rodney Shorty 57 was releasedjust last year in February, and
Merle lame.
Is 62 and released to nonparole.
(01:02:09):
That's
Stephanie (01:02:14):
incredible.
Like, just mind blowing.
Dani (01:02:17):
That's all I got.
I'd be happy to go down to thecourthouse, kids, and get all
that information, but
Stephanie (01:02:23):
they be charging buku bucks.
It is, it is ridiculous per pageto get transcripts.
It's supposed to be
Dani (01:02:29):
public information.
Thank you.
Stephanie (01:02:32):
I should be able
Dani (01:02:33):
to link that shit up online!
Stephanie (01:02:35):
This one has been wild to me.
Like I still can't get over howthey had some random girl who
was not deeply entrenched in thedrug scene, but doesn't seem.
Three plants.
Not
Dani (01:02:51):
deeply entrenched.
Stephanie (01:02:53):
is now putting forth and able to get seven
convictions?
That means that she was probablyhaving more tips.
this is not a big town,especially back then, and They
knew.
Dani (01:03:09):
They knew.
Stephanie (01:03:10):
So was she just a party girl that knew a bunch of
girls?
That was some pretty girl thatcould hang out with these people
or those people?
And knew some names?
Like
Dani (01:03:24):
You're like, I'm giving you one, bro.
And then I'm out.
Do you know what I mean?
Seven, and four, I'm, I totally,for the, it was irresponsible of
the Nampa Police Department.
Stephanie (01:03:39):
Yeah,
Dani (01:03:40):
to let her keep just go get another one.
All right.
Good job.
They're
Stephanie (01:03:44):
like, oh we offered you a job in room and board No,
you said I mean, what were theyreally offering her?
They the money wasn't going tocover
Dani (01:03:55):
her
Stephanie (01:03:55):
cost to move to Boise.
Dani (01:03:57):
No
Stephanie (01:03:59):
What were you offering her that she could I
mean anyone can
Dani (01:04:04):
And she, I'm going to tell you that her sister said she was
just such a giving person.
She was a good person and shehad worked, in, home health care
with seniors and also, or nothome health care, but re you
know, retirement, centers withseniors.
And she had also worked withdevelopmentally delayed, like
(01:04:25):
that job, you have to be acertain kind of a person.
She was a very giving person.
Yeah, you have to have a gentlesoul.
and so she was a good person.
She had a five and six year old,kids.
she was 27.
I just think she was caughtbetween a rock and a hard place
with these guys.
over a hundred dollar fine.
I mean that could be like nowlike maybe a 4, 000 fine like
(01:04:49):
and if you don't have, they'regonna put you in jail.
Stephanie (01:04:53):
And we all, who, who can be away from their job for,
Even if you're able to bond outin a week or two, what jobs are
going to forgive you for that?
And rent, and kids, and Or yourmortgage, like, what if you do
lose your job?
Now you've lost your car,because your car payment's
behind.
Like, it jeopardizes everything,because you know that it's just
(01:05:16):
such a flimsy house of cardsthat we all have it.
You know, a lot of people arevery well off financially.
I try to be as responsible as Ican and save as much as I can
and I have a little bit of abuffer.
But I can tell you, you know,most people are one medical bill
or one marijuana plant watchingfor your friend bill away from
(01:05:43):
it upending your entire life.
So
Dani (01:05:47):
and how sad, I mean, I just, it's, I, yeah, it's just
sad that, and what a horrible,horrible death.
Yeah.
Stephanie (01:05:57):
Anyway.
It was.
It's definitely a story that hadso many crazy factors in it.
A little dabble of
Dani (01:06:06):
everything.
Stephanie (01:06:07):
Yes, and so many characters, but.
Lots of characters.
R.
I.
P.
Denise.
Like, she should have never beenput in that position.
Ever.
She was not built for it, wasn'tmade for it, they took advantage
of her, so.
NPD.
Hmm.
80s NPD.
Not great.
Stop dibbly dabbling in theevidence room, please.
Dani (01:06:31):
Stop doing drugs.
1, 000.
Whoopee! Gotta drop that charge.
All
Stephanie (01:06:37):
the cocaine is gone.
Don't know what happened
Dani (01:06:41):
Somebody's like dude.
Look what I
Stephanie (01:06:43):
fucking
Dani (01:06:43):
caught at work.
Stephanie (01:06:44):
He's like party.
We are getting down This is the80s, you know, they're having
fun anyway Thank you guys forlistening, this has been another
episode of The Lethal Library.
You can reach out to us atTheLethalLibrary at gmail.
com.
Email us new tips and cases, welove to hear them.
(01:07:05):
Thank you Diana for
Dani (01:07:06):
emailing us.
Thank you for that.
And also, you can reach out tous on any of our socials and
also I wanted to give a shoutout to Lisa, who is, been a day
one listener and, gives me,positive feedback,
Stephanie (01:07:25):
We love to hear it.
We love you guys tips, tricks,and what you like to hear, what
you don't.
We know we're not everyone's cupof tea.
We'll do our best.
Dani (01:07:32):
Thanks for listening.
10 4, rubber ducky.
Fuck yeah.
Thank you for watching.
Welcome to the Lethal Library.
Welcome, I'm Stephanie.
I'm Tani.
Stephanie (00:35):
And today, Dani is going to tell us another story,
which I've heard little tidbitsof.
Can I spoil it a little bit?
Yes! I've heard rumors of aprison riot.
Drugs.
Lots of drugs.
Lots of drugs.
And there's three main suspects,I guess, so it seems like a very
(00:57):
juicy tale.
Dani (00:59):
It's really hard when I'm, when I am researching these
because we don't just hang outto record, we're, we hang out
other times.
And I'm just like, oh my god, Ican't wait.
So hopefully I didn't build youup too much and hopefully you
enjoy it.
this is this is a messy one.
There's lots of people stuff.
Stephanie (01:19):
Okay, I will do my best to be keeping notes and.
Dani (01:24):
Was Denise Williams wanting to really help the Nampa
Police Department, or was sheforced?
What responsibility does theNampa Police Department hold in
this case?
In this story, there areundercover informants, lots of
drugs, and multiple murderers,and even a prison riot.
(01:44):
It's gonna be wild, folks.
1987.
The last time 27 year old DeniseWilliams was seen was on
September 18, 1987.
She left her house with a manshe knew and his friend to grab
some beers at a localconvenience store.
In December, the Nampa policeare asking for help to locate
(02:05):
her.
Stephanie (02:07):
A few months later, NPD, I'm already, we know the
NPD, not personally.
Dani (02:17):
The Nampa Police Department said Denise was an
informant for the department andhad helped solve at least seven
cases.
And they believe she is dead.
Stephanie (02:26):
She was helping them a lot, seven cases to be solved
because of her.
Dani (02:30):
Yeah, she knew what was going down.
Detective Alan Creech, adifferent Creech, which can I
just relation, was the bane ofmy existence during the Creech
research because he came up inso many, so many searches.
I'm just like you, Alan, I don'twant you Alan.
(02:51):
Detective Alan Creech said wehave tried to convince her that
her life was in danger.
The department found Deniseemployment and a place to live
in neighboring Boise.
But Denise refused to locate.
A close friend of Denise, LizMeininger, spoke out against the
police department.
(03:12):
Liz had last seen Denise fourdays before her disappearance.
Denise told her 24 hoursurveillance was being provided
and that she thought her lifewas in danger.
Liz said that Denise was askedthree different times by the MPD
to work as an informant.
And she finally agreed.
(03:32):
Pressure.
Well, they have a littlesomething on her.
Detective Creech met Denise whenhe had given her a hundred
dollar citation for themarijuana possession and a
summons to appear in court.
She had three plans.
In her house, that she washolding for a friend while they
(03:57):
moved.
Stephanie (03:59):
She's just being a plant mama.
Dani (04:01):
Yeah.
Come on, plant girlies.
Shouldn't you hold some plantsfor your friend?
Absolutely.
You gotta move.
Oh, you don't want them inside.
storage.
They'll be sad.
Stephanie (04:12):
No, bring him here.
We'll give him some sunlight.
Dani (04:16):
Liz said that the police told Denise that they would not
fine her and would dismiss thecharges if she agreed to work as
an informant
Stephanie (04:24):
for three plants.
That is wild.
I thought it would be somethingmuch, much worse.
But I mean, in Idaho, that isvery, very bad, very bad.
Dani (04:33):
Denise was financially financially.
Yeah.
Not doing well.
So a hundred dollar fine washuge for her and you know, if
you don't pay your fines you goto jail I mean so we can be like
a hundred bucks.
Well, this first of all is backin the 80s but also she didn't
have that kind of extra money,so
Stephanie (04:53):
No, and this starts the cycle of oh, so then I get
to go to jail.
I get to lose my job Maybe Ilose my car and my home And
Dani (05:01):
children.
Stephanie (05:02):
So then,
Dani (05:04):
desperate situation.
Detective Creech denied thatthere was a request, for
surveillance from Denise.
She just wanted to for fun,obviously.
Stephanie (05:14):
She's like, you know what, I've always wanted to be
an informant.
Dani (05:17):
Well, but I think, what, what Liz is saying is that she
was nervous.
what I'm understanding is thatshe wanted surveillance and
thought it was being providedfor her, so she wasn't sweating
it.
Stephanie (05:33):
She's like, they've got me, I've asked, they're
gonna be around.
Dani (05:37):
I've got them seven.
Yeah, like seven times and Itwasn't that big.
I don't know.
Nampa wasn't that big.
I don't know what They werethinking the police department
(05:58):
It would soon become obvious whowho would be the common link
Stephanie (06:03):
After seven.
Dani (06:04):
Yeah, so Creech said he did not force Denise to be an
informant He simply told herthere could be an that she could
be an informant When hercitation was issued, you know
how that went down.
Stephanie (06:18):
Well, and to have to do it seven times for a 100 fine
for three plants.
That's ridiculous.
Like I thought that we weregonna be like, oh she was
transporting on her boat 300pounds of cocaine.
Sure.
Yeah, I could see you having toreally provide something
multiple times, right?
(06:39):
Three plants.
Civilian possession.
This is wild that they hadsomeone that's not experienced
in this position.
Dani (06:51):
Two weeks after her citation was issued, Denise,
pled guilty to marijuanapossession.
And then she came to the policeand said she wanted to help.
Creech said, quote, she felt Godwas compelling her to help with
a drug problem.
She was under no compulsion towork with me.
(07:12):
I'm gonna, I'm gonna say fatmouth.
Stephanie (07:15):
You really, yes, I, I agree because it's like She had
to plead guilty still.
Dani (07:22):
Mm hmm.
Stephanie (07:23):
So what do they do?
Just waive her fine and put iton her record?
What did they, what was sheoffered in exchange?
Dani (07:28):
Exactly.
Stephanie (07:30):
I don't think that she was like, you know, since
you did catch me I did read myBible a few times and I've
decided this is my calling.
I don't think so.
Dani (07:40):
Detective Creech said people who want to become
informants must first sign acontract stating they are
volunteering for the position.
But sometimes police, quote,make deals with people to work
as informants in exchange forpaying citations.
Stephanie (07:54):
So it's not necessarily a hundred percent
voluntary in my eyes.
That's a little bit underduress.
Dani (08:00):
Corsive?
Stephanie (08:01):
You're not doing it just because you were bored one
day and said, you know what?
I've been thinking endlessly onwhat I can do to help the NPD.
I've been dreaming about it.
So I better just go there.
No, no big deal that if I haveto go to jail, I'll lose.
Dani (08:17):
Is my livelihood.
Stephanie (08:19):
I just wanna help.
Help these good
Dani (08:21):
boys and blue out.
No, Denise worked with thedepartment for three months for
a small fee, so I think she wasmaking a little money on the
side.
and I think that they paid hercitation, but also, in three
months, seven people get busted.
Stephanie (08:43):
That's
Dani (08:44):
very
Stephanie (08:44):
dangerous.
there's no way that certainpeople aren't realizing who's
running in certain circles andIt becomes very obvious very
fast.
What's the common denominator?
Dani (08:56):
According to Creech, Denise was a cut above the rest
of the informants.
Oh.
Yeah, seven in three months.
Stephanie (09:04):
They should have known and been like, slow down
girl.
Like, what are you doing toprotect yourself?
Because how do they not knowthat you're telling on them?
Dani (09:15):
Denise's sister, Diane Vaughn blames the Nampa police
for her disappearance.
Quote, if she was really upagainst a brick wall, if the
situation was as Creech says,why didn't they move her butt
out of state?
Because they are, they're comingout and they're saying, Oh, we
think she's probably dead,right?
(09:39):
After two months of her being,you know, disappearing.
If they knew anything, I mean,why would they?
Keep her, they're just gettingthe, getting it while the
getting's good.
I believe that.
Diane said the department shouldhave forced her sister to leave
if they were that concernedabout her well being
Stephanie (09:59):
or at least been like we know the timeline of
employment as an informant andthis isn't good.
Like you're, I mean you're
Dani (10:09):
crushing it, but you're also putting your life in severe
danger.
Yeah.
Instead, Of moving her out ofthe area, they found her a
minimum wage job in Boise, butshe never secured a place for
her to live.
Quote, she, this is her sister,quote, she didn't get any credit
(10:29):
for what she's done for theNampa police.
Now there's the possibility thatshe's dead, and now that's her
fault?
Isn't she entitled to theprotection we're afforded by
law?
The police seem to be writingthis case off and saying, oh,
it's just another druggie, andthat's not right.
According to Diane, Deniserefused to leave Nampa after
contacting 17 different partiesabout renting a place in Boise.
(10:53):
17?
Yeah, she's trying
Stephanie (10:57):
to find a place.
That's all.
And we know how it is withrenting.
They want an application,probably an application fee.
I'm sure it wasn't as much backthen, but still.
You don't have 17 if they're 10each.
Now, we're talking 170 like
Dani (11:15):
well, they determined these places that were renting
had determined that She couldn'tafford rent and daycare costs on
the minimum wage job that thatthe MPD had found for her over
there So so
Stephanie (11:30):
she's it was they've placed her in between a rock and
a hard place.
She's like we're doing our best
Dani (11:35):
Yeah, here's a minimum wage job in Boise And you know,
historically, Boise has beenmore expensive than Nampa.
And she might have been gettingaid here in Canyon County.
Who knows, you know, how thatwas working.
But, she tried to go over there.
And, by the way, I don't thinkthat that would have
Stephanie (11:56):
No, Nampa to Boise is a 20 minute drive.
20 to 45 minutes, dependingwhere you're going.
Dani (12:02):
Hmm, and traffic.
We
Stephanie (12:03):
do have freeways here, contrary to popular
belief.
There is a freeway that willlead you straight from Nampa to
Boise, or even Caldwell toBoise.
Can you believe it?
I know.
Like you can get somewhere.
There's paved roads.
but no.
Multiple lanes too.
I mean it was small enough backthen that I can see it could
have made some difference.
(12:25):
But, like you said, moving atown over, two towns over,
that's not gonna do anything.
Dani (12:33):
Meridian didn't even count as a, as a town.
It's like a half a town at thatpoint.
Yeah, it was a town and a halfover.
It's huge now, so.
Diane first reported her sistermissing at 9pm on September
19th.
Diane called Detective Creech athome on September 20th.
(12:53):
The family knew what was goingdown.
I mean, for her sister to havethis detective's number at home.
Diane called Detective Creech athome on September 20th, and he
said, quote, She probably wentout and got drunk someplace and
fell asleep.
Oh, this is just rude.
If I was, oh my god, I'd belivid if I was her sister.
(13:14):
I mean, and she is, she's upset.
Diane says her sister has neverbeen irresponsible to her
children or her family.
She would have never gone outall night and not come back.
Stephanie (13:24):
And just for that to be your first response, even if
you're thinking it, maybe if youdid know something, that's
Dani (13:31):
How about the seven people that she helped bust?
Stephanie (13:35):
Yeah, this is probably your best informant.
You said a cut above the rest.
Dani (13:39):
A cut above.
Stephanie (13:42):
That's so fucking frustrating.
I can't imagine how awful thatwould be to be sitting at your
house as a sister and be like,She's done all this for you.
She Are you gonna at least gofucking look for her?
You are the law.
You're involved in heractivities that could put her in
Dani (14:00):
danger.
Are you going to go look forher?
Yeah.
Creech told Denise he would golook for her sister on Monday.
Stephanie (14:09):
Next business day.
We'll take three to fourbusiness weeks, we'll look into
it.
Dani (14:14):
A little over a week before her disappearance,
Denise's last provided a tipthat led to the arrest of
Richard Holmes on September10th.
Over 100, 000 worth of drugswere seized, which included 51
marijuana plants, 10 grams ofcocaine, 176 grams of loose
(14:35):
marijuana.
8 grams of meth, and to round itout, 4 hits of LSD.
Stephanie (14:40):
Just a nice variety.
Dani (14:46):
They were druggin
Stephanie (14:48):
And the all inclusive store, this was like the Walmart
of drugs.
What do you need?
Dani (14:53):
See a little meth, a little LSD?
Well, anything you need.
they also, and this becomes,important later.
They also found 7, 000 in cash.
So, these, these guys had cash,they're doing the drugs.
Stephanie (15:07):
And when you get busted for drugs like this, they
can take anything that theythink is associated.
Yeah, they
Dani (15:13):
took a Chevy Nova.
Do you know where the house wasat?
I had to, it said CaldwellBoulevard.
Oh, shit.
But back in the day, CaldoBoulevard, there was like more
property up there, like, uh, itwas right by CWI, uh, out there.
Oh, that campus.
It's by like the chef's storeand everything.
(15:34):
Yeah, yeah.
There was a, a mobile home outthere.
So that's, that's in town now.
Yeah.
Um, back in the eighties waskind of a little bit rural, a
little bit rural.
so that 7, 000 that they found,there was more of it somewhere
because Richard Holmes postedBond the very next day.
Stephanie (15:58):
Or he had some very influential and powerful like
people, maybe I shouldn't sayinfluential, so he had some
people that were bankrolling himor involved with him that had
money.
Yeah.
This is what it, if you find agal with three pot plants she's
watching for someone and Maybeit's a lie if you want to
(16:20):
believe that it's a lie orwhatever.
Three plans.
But, this is not someone that'swell established in the drug
world.
This is someone that's probablybeing invited to parties or
Maybe has some friends that shehears a name.
This is like punching above yourability like
Dani (16:45):
this was above her pay grade.
Stephanie (16:46):
Yeah, she should have been exposing someone with That
many drugs and I feel bad forher and I wish she would have
maybe realized that I'm notblaming her Because she just
thought that she was gonna betaken care of.
Dani (17:03):
But also the MPD putting her in that position greedy
fucks People are going to figurethat out.
Yes.
I mean, we're talking the 80s.
Maybe there was 25, 000 peoplein Nampa.
Maybe.
22.
I didn't, but I just knowgrowing up.
It was definitely under 30, 000people.
And 7 people have been bustedfor drugs when this lady's been
(17:24):
around.
And she had to testify againstthese people.
There's no secret informants.
Okay.
Stephanie (17:34):
Yeah, she needed to be in the witness protection or
out of state immediately.
There's.
This is wild to me.
Dani (17:41):
Richard Holmes was arrested again on December 7th,
1987, for second degreekidnapping, aggravated battery,
grand theft, possession ofcocaine, and carrying a
concealed weapon.
So, obviously, not concernedabout a September arrest with
100, 000 for the drugs.
Stephanie (18:02):
I guess not.
Still out gallivanting and
Dani (18:07):
I can't wait to
Stephanie (18:08):
hear about this kidnapping
Dani (18:09):
thing later.
It's so, you're like, what?
Is this a movie?
It sounds like
Stephanie (18:15):
a
Dani (18:16):
movie.
In 1988, Ronald Eugene Wages,35, is arrested on a kidnapping
charge on February 10th.
There we go with that middleEugene name again.
As I was just thinking that.
SO FUCKING POPULAR! He wasalready in the Canning County
(18:40):
Jail where he had been sinceJanuary 5th on drug charges.
In late February, a grand jurywas formed to investigate the
probable homicide of Denise.
Meanwhile, the police continueto search for Denise's body,
believed to be located in theSquaw Creek area south of
Marsing, Idaho.
The grand jury indicts fourpeople for the disappearance of
(19:02):
Denise.
Richard Holmes, 33, for criminalkidnapping, and he's also being
held on intimidating witnessesand obstructing of police
officers.
Police officer.
Three others are indicted aswell, but that information is
not released to the publicbecause it's a grand jury.
They don't have to do that.
Oh, you're right.
Stephanie (19:23):
on March 4th, Holmes wife, Deborah, was arrested for
a February 21st theft.
She's accused of stealing toolsfrom the state highway district
building and banks.
You know those buildings.
Yes.
The big brown buildings.
People who have driven that wayshould know.
They surely know.
In court records filed in April,interviews from two
(19:44):
acquaintances of Holmes wererevealed.
The two men said they werecoerced into taking Denise into
a remote place in Owyhee County,and they believed that she was
going to be killed.
I thought they were going tokill her.
I thought they were going toYep.
And I was like, you know what,but I got a dentist appointment
(20:05):
tomorrow and Sigh.
Both men face charges and arebeing held.
The two men said they trickedDenise Into going into the
desert to a pre arranged meetingplace near Squaw Creek on
September 18th.
One man said, quote, Holmes saidshe was a problem.
(20:27):
Holmes asked one of the men,quote, if it came down to it,
would we have the guts to pullthe trigger to kill her, you
know?
And I told him no.
Both of us did.
Told him no repeatedly.
Holmes then said he would lookat her like an animal, cut her
throat, and let her bleed.
(20:48):
Yikes.
So many drugs.
I mean, bad person, but drugstoo.
Holmes said if she's not incourt to testify against him for
sales, all they can get him foris possession.
And this is the 51 plants andthe foreheads, you know, all of
(21:09):
that stuff.
According to the records, thetwo men picked up Denise and
went to Middleton, boughttequila, and drove her around
for a while, drinking andsmoking marijuana.
Now I'm just a little sidetrackhere about Middleton, so if
(21:29):
you're not from here or don'tunderstand Idaho We have, state
run liquor stores, but in somelittle towns where they don't
have a state run liquor storebecause it would be too
expensive, they do allow other,like a gas station, convenience
(21:50):
store.
I know, I have made runs tothis, you know they want,
because they're open later.
They're open later and they cansell later and, I mean, liquor
stores are, we're shutting downlike at nine o'clock, I don't
know, I think it's like thathere.
Right now too.
It's like nine o'clock, right?
I'm not out that late.
I don't know but you can't buyliquor after like nine o'clock.
(22:12):
You can go to the bar You can goto the bar, but you cannot
you're gonna be like at 901decide that you want to get tore
up And listen to music and playsome cards with your buddies And
go buy a bottle of whiskeybecause it's, it's fucking
closed.
So, but there are some staterun, there's, I don't even think
there's one around here anymore.
(22:34):
But you knew you could drive toMiddleton.
No, that was the place and itwas, it's kind of a straight
shot from Nampa.
Like, so if you have someonethat's sober enough to drive
there.
And it's after hours, you go ona little field trip to
Middleton, and you get yourbooze there and come back, and
Cause I think you could buy itthere till like 11.
I know exactly the store.
(22:55):
Maybe even later.
I know the exact conveniencestore.
So, we've all done it.
So, they drove her out there,picked up a bottle of tequila,
they were doing their thing.
Near midnight, the men tookDenise out to the Marsing area.
where they were confronted by aman with a shotgun, who they
believed is wages.
(23:17):
I don't think these guys knewexactly what they were getting
into, to be fair.
Okay.
The man directed them to removeDenise's pants and underwear and
tore open her blouse.
They also tied her up withshoestrings and poured vodka on
her.
A.
(23:37):
Vodka not necessary.
B.
What's up with the fuckingshoestrings?
Well, and why does she need tobe naked?
Like Yeah, it's just show ofpower.
It's stupid.
But then the men were told toleave.
Thanks for the delivery.
Bye.
(23:57):
So, At what point though didthese guys be like, Mmm, that's
not what I thought was gonnahappen.
Well, yeah, and it's just onceagain, A common thing we hear is
If men aren't around, who'sgonna protect these women?
From who?
Other men that they do not standup to.
(24:21):
Like oh, yeah, she's now nakedand covered in vodka and we're
yeah, I guess I'll go on aboutmy day Weird, I cannot imagine
being put in a situation likethat and being like Oh, you
know, I do have to run a fewmore errands tonight, like,
okay, bye.
And just go home?
Like, what the fuck?
(24:43):
Police located a thong and acomb believed to belong to
Denise in the area, but havebeen unable to locate her body.
And when I say a thong, I mean aflip flop.
Thank you for clarifying,because it could be either.
(25:03):
It was a flip flop.
Wages and homes are finallyindicted on murder charges.
In May an in, this is kind of alittle sidetrack here.
Just to let you know, in May aninmate in the Canyon County
Jail, Juan Rivas is seeking$500,000.
(25:25):
Rivas was severely beaten afterbe being put in the same cell
with his co-defendant.
Dani (25:30):
Giglio Medina.
And wages the two men attackedRivas wages grabbed him from
behind and called him a snitchand began hitting him On the
face and chest wages told RivasHe was going to rape him and
beat him because he heard Rivaswas talking to the police about
(25:50):
the drug situation or Nampa
Stephanie (25:53):
Yeah,
Dani (25:54):
so that just let you know what kind of The reason I
included this is because, wages.
There was some shit happening.
And he's in jail, so he's sober.
He's just He's in jail andsober.
He's just a bad dude.
The tort claim states that Wagesis known to be a dangerous
(26:18):
criminal who had severely beatenanother inmate just a month
before.
Why are they putting him in acell with other people?
Stephanie (26:27):
You know, my question is, why don't they give them a
razor blade?
Dani (26:31):
With a toothbrush.
Oh my god.
This is, I'm, Canning County,okay?
It's not, it's not the IdahoState Correctional Facility.
They don't know about the razorsand the toothbrush.
It doesn't seem like they caremuch, but They don't.
(26:53):
Okay.
During a sentencing hearing forHolmes on an unrelated
kidnapping charge.
Stephanie (27:00):
Ha ha ha ha ha.
They were just kidnapping leftand right.
They
Dani (27:04):
were.
he said his abuse of drugs beganafter his home burned down last
summer.
I don't know how it burned down.
They probably were doing drugs.
Meth lab, who knows.
In July, Holmes enters a guiltyplea on four felony drug
charges.
Prosecutors agree to a sentenceof five to ten years in prison,
(27:26):
running concurrently with fiveto ten year prison term he
received earlier this year for asecond degree kidnapping of
Ricky Simonis.
Stephanie (27:37):
Okay.
They are
Dani (27:38):
kidnapping.
It's coming around.
The three other drug chargeswill be dropped.
The four felony charges stemfrom the September 87 drug raid.
A mistrial was declared in Mayafter a thousand dollars of
cocaine was discovered missingin the evidence.
Stephanie (28:00):
Oh, how does that happen?
Dani (28:03):
Hmm.
Stephanie (28:05):
Who has access to the evidence rooms?
Dani (28:09):
The NPD.
Stephanie (28:12):
They were having a ball.
An A ball.
Dani (28:16):
An A ball.
I don't even know shit aboutdrugs, but I know that there's
an A ball.
Is that a thing?
That's right, right?
That is right.
Yeah.
Stephanie (28:26):
They were having an eight ball.
They were having a time.
Woo.
Oh, shit.
Oh, props MPD.
I bet that was a
Dani (28:40):
memorable time.
On August 2nd, Denise's body isfinally located.
Finally.
I mean, it's almost a wholeyear.
About 35 miles south of Marsing,Idaho.
It was about a hundred yards offof Cow Creek Road, approximately
(29:01):
10 miles off of Highway 95.
So it was one of those dirtroads back there.
Yeah,
Stephanie (29:09):
Cow Creek Road sounds familiar.
Dani (29:12):
Yeah.
Hmm.
There's people listening thatknow exactly where that's at.
Yeah.
The body was in a deep ravine,partially concealed by rocks.
August is busy, cause also inAugust, Nampa Police Chief
Marshall Brisbane asked thestate to review the city
procedures regarding druginformants.
(29:33):
Mmm, like mmm, because peoplewere pissed! Just like we're
like, how does, how does thiseven happen?
Right?
Seven in three months?
You gotta realize the riskthere.
The Idaho Bureau of Narcotics.
Didn't even know that was such athing, but there it is.
(29:54):
Reviewed the policies, Reviewedthe policies and stated they are
essentially the same as theState Bureau, which doesn't mean
shit to me.
Stephanie (30:04):
For me, I'm like y'all just had how much cocaine
go missing from your evidenceroom.
Idaho Bureau of Narcotics is ofdoing narcotics.
Like what are we?
We do cocaine the best.
Like, what the fuck?
So, it doesn't mean much.
Dani (30:23):
In August, Maxwell Mad Max Hoffman is charged on August
22nd with the fatal stabbing ofDenise.
Stephanie (30:34):
Really?
Dani (30:36):
Well, they finally found her body.
Hoffman is already in prison forsecond degree kidnapping of a
man named Ricky.
It
Stephanie (30:44):
was the Wild West.
Dani (30:47):
So, Holmes was also charged with the Ricky Simona's
kidnapping.
Okay.
Ronald Wages pleads guilty tofirst degree murder before Judge
Doolittle.
In September, he testified thatRichard Holmes ordered the
revenge slaying.
Wages also testified Denise waskilled by him and Hoffman on
(31:10):
orders from Holmes.
But Holmes was not present whenthe murder took place.
Wade just said he stabbed Denisein the heart when she pleaded to
be put out of her misery afterHoffman first had slit her
throat.
This is brutal, guys.
Stephanie (31:26):
No
Dani (31:26):
shit.
Yeah.
There'll be a little bit more.
It's,
Stephanie (31:33):
it was a brutal murder
Dani (31:34):
and everybody.
There was
Stephanie (31:36):
a lot of people involved.
Dani (31:38):
A lot of people and everybody was high and drunk and
just Thinking that theirScarface almost So, you know
those guys that I'm gonna, thoseguys that she, that took her out
to the desert,
Stephanie (31:55):
yeah,
Dani (31:56):
one of them, Longstreet, 19 years old, testified for the
defense with a different story.
He said Wages ordered the trioout of the car, pointing a
shotgun at them.
Wages then told the men to tieDenise up with the bootlaces
before leaving.
Longstreet and his buddy Slausonare facing second degree
(32:18):
kidnapping charges, but they arecooperating with the authorities
in exchange for a six month jailterm.
How do you get, why would thiseven be a negotiating factor if
they actually delivered a personto literally
Stephanie (32:35):
be slaughtered?
Well, you wonder if they werejust like, oh pick up our
friend.
Dani (32:41):
But with her being tied up, the vodka, I don't know.
Mm.
It's like, oh, this, this is alittle bit more violent than,
this is not a talking to.
Stephanie (32:56):
What people will go along with when there's some
weird power structure, andDrugs! Men.
Dani (33:07):
Holmes and Hoffman arrived later in separate trucks.
Holmes then confronted Denise.
He asked her why she busted him,and she replied it was her job.
He kicked Denise in the facewhile she was sitting down, and
then told her, You're dead,bitch.
(33:28):
That makes me so
Stephanie (33:31):
She should have never been put in this position.
I cannot believe this is overthree pot plants.
Exactly.
I mean, and I mean it doesn'tsurprise me, just recently
they're like, there's a bill onthe Idaho legislature that any
possession is 300 fine ofmarijuana.
And everyone is going and payingall of Oregon's taxes to get it.
(33:53):
Like, Oregon has so much taxmoney from Idaho.
That's the
Dani (33:58):
only reason I'll say go Oregon, because otherwise it's a
shit show, but, Before drivingoff, Holmes told Hoffman.
You know what to do.
Wages and Hoffman snorted somecocaine and meth several times.
Damn.
Before killing Denise.
(34:20):
I wonder, and I don't know this,I wonder how long this was drawn
out for her.
Stephanie (34:28):
I bet it was a long time.
I've heard that meth time, like,Meth time doesn't even exist?
No, it doesn't and especially,you know, it sounds like they
had talked about it before ofcould you do it and it's It
seemed like there was a lot ofpushback from others, and so
it's like Well, that was the
Dani (34:44):
two guys, the two younger kids, the 19 year olds, that
Yeah,
Stephanie (34:49):
so you can say that you would do it all you want,
but when it comes to actuallydoing it, and it doesn't sound
like she's fighting or anything,and Now they're trying to like,
get up the fucking balls.
Get the meth courage.
Yeah, to do it.
Meth courage.
Dani (35:06):
Richard Holmes was the one who led the, led the police to
Denise's body.
Stephanie (35:10):
Really?
Dani (35:13):
On September 25th, a riot breaks out at the Idaho State
Penitentiary.
Uh oh.
The riot caused hundreds ofthousands of dollars in damage
and resulted in the stabbingmurder of an inmate.
Inmates were preparing ahomemade liquor called Squawky.
Stephanie (35:34):
Let's go Squawky.
I thought it was hooch.
up.
Dani (35:38):
Right?
Stephanie (35:38):
Maybe there's different brands.
They're like, we make ours on anorange base and others make
theirs on a grape base.
Some do apple, but we doSquawky.
Dani (35:48):
Do you think there's ever any, like, yeast involved?
Like, do you think that maybe,who knows?
You know,
Stephanie (35:55):
all you have I do not know how to make liquor.
All you have is time, so.
And especially now with theresources, you could just call
someone and be like, Hey, Googlehow to make liquor in, uh,
incarceration.
I'd be scared
Dani (36:09):
to get poisoned.
Stephanie (36:12):
I think people might be scared, but,
Dani (36:14):
Look, you drink it first, and I'll There's some
desperation.
If you're not dead in two hours,then I'll have some with you.
I would be immediately kickedout of that group.
You don't get any! None for you!You Yeah.
No.
If you're not gonna partake, youdon't get to wait and see if we
(36:35):
die.
You suck.
Bye.
I'll find a new group offriends.
Let me go to Gblock.
Play some cards and I'll drinksome Kool Aid.
When the guards moved in to takethe squawky drink, the riot
started.
60 well armed officers assembledat the prison nearly two hours
(36:59):
after the 78 inmate unit waslost to rioters.
78! They're like, there's afucking lot of us.
A bonfire had been set, almostevery piece of glass in sight
was destroyed.
Dozens of holes were punched inwalls and cells.
Okay, Kyle, damn.
(37:21):
The inmates surrendered afterchoking on the smoke from their
own fires.
Oh.
That was Uppy! Somebody open afucking window in here! I can't
breathe! I Somebody open awindow at this place.
Like, bruh.
Stephanie (37:40):
Too much on the bonfire, too much, too much.
Sucking all the oxygen out ofhere.
Dani (37:46):
That made me laugh so hard.
This is fucking funny though.
They're like,
Stephanie (37:49):
oh, mmm.
This is the mistake that Rickand Jared would make in a prison
riot.
They'd be like, we know how tomake a fucking fire.
Let's burn this
Dani (37:59):
shit down.
Oh, wait.
No, we can't breathe.
We can't breathe.
We can't escape.
We can't.
Oh, but I bet
Stephanie (38:07):
you it was a sexy fire.
It's a, I'm sure it was a verysexy fire.
They're like, this bonfire isbadass.
Why are they not functioning?
Dani (38:19):
Uh, after nearly three and a half hours, the dust settled
and Richard Holmes was foundstabbed to death in his cell.
Oh God.
A hole was punched through homecell hollow block wall baby
building in prisons
Stephanie (38:35):
out of cinder block.
Just stacking some cinderblocks, so like, that looks
good.
Yeah, little mortar in between.
If someone can punch and breakthrough it.
This is, I think I said on oneof the earlier episodes, a lot
of these prisons were just smokeand mirrors.
Like, they had all of the, onthe outside, the sheen of
(38:59):
security.
But,
Dani (39:02):
you gotta fill those ho I have dropped cinder blocks
before and broke them.
Like, it's not super durable,like, you can build walls out of
them, but you could also, I feelconfident that I could punch a
hole through one, I mean Iprobably could.
Or at least
Stephanie (39:21):
chisel your way, or if like, over
Dani (39:23):
time, chip away.
Quit being cheap, state ofIdaho.
That shit should have beenfilled with concrete.
It was hollow,
Stephanie (39:35):
like you just, it's like Legos.
You just stack them and you'regood.
No one can get through that.
Nobody.
Shawshank is like, hold my beer.
Yeah,
Dani (39:45):
he would have been out like in two days.
You had nothing but time.
Nothing but time.
Corrections director Al Murphytold the Joint Finance
Appropriations Committee thatthe main cause of the riot is
three things.
First, inmates are dangerous.
The second cause is, inmates aredangerous.
(40:08):
And the third cause is, inmatesare dangerous.
I'm sorry,
Stephanie (40:12):
that is, who, who is this again, please?
Dani (40:17):
this is, the Corrections Director, Al Murphy.
Stephanie (40:22):
Al Murphy, nothing tells me that you're terrible at
your job more than that answer.
That, I'm, if, if some type ofhazard happens or bullshittery
happens at your job.
Not my fault, not my fault.
It's almost like, well customersare dicks.
(40:42):
Like, if you have a failingrestaurant, customers are dicks.
No.
Like, you, you give threereasons and you give those three
repetitive reasons, you shouldhave never been put in that
position to begin with.
What a piss poor level ofleadership.
Bullshit.
Dani (41:00):
A recording.
Made by an Idaho State PoliceSergeant outside of Holmes sales
block, recorded Holmes calling asuspect out by name and pleading
with him not to injure him.
Not to enter him?
Not to injure.
Oh god.
Stephanie (41:21):
Wow! This is very racy.
I mean, still not to injure isbig.
Maybe we should start that overbecause I'm like, I mean, this
is the eighties.
You don't have a recording thingon yourself.
How did you catch this?
Dani (41:38):
So just so you know, they called it a pocket recording,
which I'm assuming he had like alittle cassette recorder, you
know, like the mini tapes orsomething.
The name Shorty was repeatedseveral times, although the
police could not see into Holmescell.
A bloody palm print found inHolmes cell also belonged to
(41:59):
Shorty.
A first degree murder warrantwas issued against Rodney Shorty
Areza, 21.
I'm gonna go with it.
Areza?
That
Stephanie (42:12):
sounds good.
Dani (42:14):
Shorty was serving up to 10 years on robbery of a Bliss
bar and the battery of anemployee in Gooding County.
Two others are suspected in themurder of Holmes.
John Sorgren, 36, and MerleLaMere, 25.
When asked about the motive forthe murder, Ada County Sheriff
(42:35):
Vaughn Killeen stated, Eraziawas trying to establish a
reputation in the prison asbeing tough.
Erazia is about 5 foot 4 inchestall, but weighs about 190
pounds.
Big boy.
Thick boy.
He was just 15 when he robbedthe YN bar in 1983 and was tried
(42:56):
as an adult.
He, shorty struck Jake Overfelt,a 56 year employee, over the
head with several whiskeybottles and kicked him in the
neck and left him for dead.
Jake was cleaning up afterclosing hours.
People
Stephanie (43:15):
don't, I mean, I think bartending's a dangerous
job.
No shit, we've been through thisa few times, like.
Dani (43:23):
Colleen also stated that Holmes may have been killed
because he was labeled a snitch.
How ironic, which I feel
Stephanie (43:31):
like is probably the case.
Well, you're grasping at strawsHe was looking at ways to get
out of this and have it only bea possession And who knows if he
wasn't
Dani (43:43):
making a deal, right?
Let me tell you where the
Stephanie (43:45):
body's at
Dani (43:46):
cuz or let me technically he wasn't there.
He wasn't there.
He left He just ordered thekilling right?
So he thought maybe he could getout
Stephanie (43:57):
and he's probably got some great With the variety of
drugs.
It was a smorgasbord.
Of drugs.
You're, you have multiplecontacts.
That you could probably be like,Eh, I don't really like that
guy.
I'll turn him in and get acouple, a reduction on my
sentence or the charge.
(44:18):
Sure, sure.
I agree.
Alright, Holmes.
So, possible snitch.
Dani (44:25):
In a jailhouse interview with the Idaho statesman.
Erasea said, first of all, theseattorneys had to be pulling
their fucking hair, like, quittalking, dude, the Idaho
statesman, just shut the fuckup.
But in his jailhouse interview,Erasea said, I didn't do
nothing.
(44:46):
He had no motive to kill Holmesbecause he is scheduled for
release in the summer of 89.
Quote, I only got 9 or 10 monthsleft on a 10 year sentence.
What kind of fool do you think Iam to go out and commit a murder
when I'm about to get out?
It's a pretty good point.
(45:07):
In October, Debra Holmes putguilty to several charges, some
stemming from the theft inFebruary from the highway
district, as well as welfarefraud and drug charges.
She is sentenced to probation.
And I'm convinced she gotsentenced to probation because
her husband died.
Stephanie (45:26):
Yeah.
Dani (45:27):
In October, a breakdown between Canyon and Hawaii
counties regarding who is payingand who is trying what.
Because, you know, the drug bustwas here, they kidnapped her
from, from Canyon County, butthey actually found her in
Hawaii County.
Multi
Stephanie (45:42):
county.
Dani (45:43):
And they were trying to work it out, but it just, it's
not happening.
Stephanie (45:48):
Well, and the NPD is like, if we can't have whatever
drugs those are, how are wegoing to steal them?
So, if you let us have the, Imean, this is all me making up
things, but they have a trackrecord of dipping into that
evidence room and maybe theyjust really wanted that
evidence.
(46:08):
I don't know who has it, butNPD, this wasn't your shining
decade for sure.
Holmes Attorney
Dani (46:17):
Keene! Make it another appearance.
Blame prosecutors for filingcourt documents that included
information about HolmesCorporation with the
authorities.
So they did.
Little cooperation.
Yeah, but they filed it and thenit was publicly.
It was public.
Publicly.
Public er.
(46:38):
Thank you.
In November, there's a completefallout from the investigation.
The Hawaii County Coroner,Harold Mick Craven, resigns.
He's pissed.
He said that the sheriff hidDenise's body from him for two
and a half days, and he wasnever taken to the scene.
The coroner.
What
Stephanie (46:58):
is going on here?
Dani (47:00):
Well, they knew they fucked up and were like, I don't
I kind of got the feeling, sothe body was found in, I'm just,
sorry, recollecting my mind, myresearch.
The body was found in WaiheeCounty, which is where Craven
was.
But they took the body to CanyonCounty, and the Canyon County,
(47:22):
coroner, thank you, actually didthe autopsy.
And Craven was only notifiedlike an hour or so before.
and he's basically like, I can'tdo my job like this.
A coroner is A number one.
but the sheriff in Hawaii Countybasically told him like, this is
(47:42):
my body.
Oh, and
Stephanie (47:45):
he's
Dani (47:46):
like,
Stephanie (47:46):
alright, well, fuck you, I'm out.
So he just
Dani (47:50):
quit, he said, I can't, I can't do, he, he said, I cannot
do my job.
If this is how it's gonna go, sohe quit.
Stephanie (47:57):
So, I feel like this ties into the greater theme of
fuckery in law enforcement.
Because for, that might soundtrivial on, at surface level.
But if this type of shit's goingon, and this was the last straw
for this person.
(48:17):
So it sounds like to me,recognizing things, that Yeah.
A professional, in a coroner'ssense, was like This is it.
I'm done.
I can't even be doing what I'mpaid to do
Dani (48:34):
because that's his is He's supposed to go out there and
take pictures and look ateverything and look at the
evidence He didn't get thatopportunity and then just to
haul him off to another County.
He's totally being undermined
Stephanie (48:46):
Yeah, so and I can just about guarantee this wasn't
the first time.
Yeah,
Dani (48:52):
cuz I'm sure it
Stephanie (48:53):
had happened Yeah, and PD you were dipping into
that evidence room
Dani (48:59):
We have moved on to 1989.
1989, we're almost to the 90sfolks.
Which is like, what, 15 yearsago?
It was like,
Stephanie (49:07):
yeah,
Dani (49:08):
15 years ago.
In a preliminary hearing forEurasia, a fellow inmate
tearfully testified that itwasn't Shorty that killed
Holmes.
The inmate, Jerry Mills, saidtwo other inmates stabbed
Holmes.
He would not name them becausehe was afraid for his life.
(49:28):
Mills cell was directly acrossfrom Holmes.
He said inmates wearing bandanasand stocking caps over their
faces used pipes to break a holeinto Holmes cell.
They used knives attached to mophandles and pipes to try and
stab Holmes.
Stephanie (49:45):
Like, poking and prodding?
Dani (49:48):
Yeah, but they got in there.
I
Stephanie (49:50):
don't know if that's how it started.
Dani (49:54):
Quote, I could see a guy stab Holmes in the stomach area
a few times and heard Holmessay, no, no shorty.
Holmes reached up and pulled thestocking cap off of the man's
face.
I seen who, I seen who it was.
(50:15):
Unquote.
The inmate left Holmes's celland about 10 minutes later,
another inmate entered.
With his face covered, quote, helaid Holmes body out flat,
rolled him over, pulled hisshirt back, and started stabbing
him, it seems like a hundredtimes, unquote.
(50:36):
oh, that's, it was brutalmurder.
In February, Longstreet issentenced to one year in the
Canyon County Jail for a plea.
to second degree kidnapping.
That was the other fella thatthey, she went out drinking with
under false pretenses.
To only get one year.
Stephanie (50:57):
Especially knowing what happened.
Mm
Dani (51:00):
hmm.
In March, Hoffman's trialfinally began.
In opening statements, theprosecutor says after Hoffman
learned of his arrest on firstdegree murder, he slammed down
the phone and yelled, I killedthat bitch for a guy, and now he
won't bomb me out of jail.
(51:21):
So
Stephanie (51:21):
you thought these were your bros.
Drugs.
Dani (51:26):
A pathologist testified that Denise died from a blow to
the head with a large rock,despite her throat being slashed
and getting stabbed in theabdomen.
Stephanie (51:38):
That is so fucking awful.
It is.
Dani (51:42):
Wages testified that Denise stated, finish the job,
finish it.
And that's when Wages took ahunting knife and stabbed her
through the armpit.
So there's conflictingstatements here.
Abdomen.
Armpit, but she had the initialher throat was slit and she was
(52:03):
still alive.
That's wild.
So she there was some reportingthat Her throat was slashed her
testimony Actually that herthroat was slashed and that they
thought it was done and then shecame crawling up the ravine
(52:29):
right, so I think
Stephanie (52:32):
they probably thought it was like the movies.
They did a quick little sliceyand they're like.
Dani (52:37):
So then that's when they stabbed her again and then
started throwing rocks on her tohide the body thinking she was
dead when she wasn't.
She actually died from a blow tothe head.
It was a brutal murder.
How, it's so sad.
(52:58):
The pair then started throwingrocks over the body to conceal
it.
After five hours ofdeliberation, Hoffman was found
guilty of first degree murder.
You think?
Yeah.
After the trial, Denise'sparents, Bill and Lois Fisher,
said they didn't believe Hoffmanis guilty and should not be
(53:19):
sentenced to death.
Lois said, quote, I'm veryconfused.
We have information that I can'tdisclose.
I don't think it's over.
I know there is more.
They do believe That wages ispartially responsible for
Denise's death, but that heshouldn't be executed either.
(53:40):
They are naming the Nampa PoliceDepartment partially for her
death.
Fair.
Stephanie (53:47):
Fair to me too.
Dani (53:49):
In late March, Denise's body is finally released.
to her family so they can buryher.
That is so hard for me, whenthese families are having to
wait for these trials to bedone.
Mm
Stephanie (54:02):
hmm.
Dani (54:03):
This wasn't the first time.
And it will not be the lasttime.
Like they need some closure,finality to this situation.
In April, James Slauson wassentenced to one year in jail
and two years probation forkidnapping.
(54:23):
He was a kid, one of the kidsthat took her out there.
Hoffman is sentenced to death inJune.
Getting it done! Idaho! Also inJune, Arisa is on trial for the
murder of Holmes, moving veryquickly, and he testifies in his
(54:48):
own trial.
He said he climbed through thewall to see if Holmes was still
alive.
Holmes eyes were open and helifted his shirt to see if he
was breathing.
They have that recording though.
Of him saying, I don't know, Istruggle with this one.
Another inmate testified thatArazia said, quote, somebody go
(55:12):
in there and, and check thisout.
Nobody would step forward.
So Arazia went in to check forvital signs.
He looked like he was gonnathrow up.
He seemed to be in a daze, andthat was a quote from somebody
testifying.
Stephanie (55:30):
I'm sure it was wild in there.
They got a damn bonfire going.
Can't breathe.
Dani (55:35):
Horatio is found guilty of Holmes murder.
Wages is finally sentenced to afixed life prison term.
So no parole.
This is the guy who pled guilty,and he was testifying against
everybody.
Right.
Mad Max Hoffman.
Loses an appeal in July for thekidnapping charge of Ricky
(55:56):
Simona's on December 7th 1987.
This is the guy he kidnapped foryou Hoffman wages and homes went
to Ricky's home and beat himThen they put a gun barrel down
his throat and forced him tosign over his bill pick up for a
drug related debt.
Goddamn.
These guys were met with lots ofdrugs.
(56:19):
Ricky said they threatened tobreak his jaw if he didn't sign
over the truck.
So that's where all thosecharges came from.
Dude, you're out on bond forlike 100, 000 for the drugs and
you're just, lay low.
What are we doing?
Oh, he's like, that money's owedto me.
I'm gonna go get
Stephanie (56:36):
it.
Ricky.
We're gonna kidnap.
We're gonna.
Pistol whip, we're gonna do whatwe need to do.
Dani (56:42):
In October, the attorney, Cahill for Shorty requested a
new trial during the sentencingphase.
It's wild.
I don't even know how you dothis.
In court, Cahill called threeinmates who had previously
testified at the trial.
The three said they were readyto identify who actually broke
into Holmes cell and stabbedhim.
(57:04):
During the time in court, JudgeCarey denies the request for a
jury to sentence Arazia.
We all know where that's going.
Mm
Stephanie (57:15):
hmm,
Dani (57:15):
exactly.
Pauline Miyachi, the head of aprison reform group, testified
that another inmate confessed tokilling Holmes, along with two
other people.
Miyachi said Merle Lemurconfessed to the killing to a
religious counselor.
(57:37):
Lemur had testified in Shorty'strial, stating he did not kill
Holmes.
but refused to name who did themurder.
A volunteer spiritual leader,Paul Bull, said he spoke with
Lemur privately on August 29th.
Lemur told him he, Sorgin, andClark had broken into Holmes
(58:00):
cell.
Lemur told him He, Sorensen, andClark broke into Holmes cell.
Lemire said, I stabbed Holmesthree times, and then I didn't
like what I did.
I was doing.
And Sorrenton took the shiv andstabbed him multiple times.
Then Clark hit him in the headwith a shovel.
(58:23):
He also stated, I am not goingto stick my neck out on death
row.
Mm mm.
Aracia is sentenced to a fixed35 year sentence for the murder
of Holmes to run concurrent witha 20 year term for rioting.
Stephanie (58:41):
Alrighty then.
Dani (58:42):
They don't care.
Stephanie (58:43):
They're like, yeah, there was some fuckery, who
knows what.
What happened?
You're done
Dani (58:49):
in 1990.
Merle LaMer 27 is charged forthe murder of Holmes.
This is so confusing to me.
Laur said he was willing to takethe blame because he had nothing
to live for.
He saw three men climb throughthe hole into cell, but won't
(59:10):
say who In October, Laur pledguilty to second degree murder.
He said he did not actuallyparticipate in the stabbing, but
helped to raise Gia bust throughthe.
Well, he is sentenced to 32years to life.
After sentencing, he told thecourt that Orazio is innocent.
I want you to know the truth.
(59:31):
Rodney had no participation inthat.
Make up your mind, bro!
Stephanie (59:37):
Yeah, this is
Dani (59:39):
So I'm having a hard time with Shorty's conviction.
Mm hmm.
Stephanie (59:42):
I'm Because what really happened, I don't know if
we'll ever know.
Dani (59:47):
No.
So, of course, we have a Pills,a Pills, a Pills! Hoffman does
get Joan Fisher as an attorney.
I can't remember who she waswith.
Was it the Pratt brothers?
She was with somebody and in 97Hoffman files a petition with
the court to drop his appeal sothat he can be executed all the
(01:00:11):
wells
Stephanie (01:00:12):
Really?
Dani (01:00:13):
1998 Hoffman is granted his wish and an execution date
is given attorney Fisher sayshospital Hoffman is not capable
of making that decision to drophis appeals and a stay is
granted.
Like he's too depressed You knowall that 2002 U.
S.
District Court Judge B.
(01:00:35):
Lynn Windmill Issued an orderfor Hoffman to be resentenced.
This is because he was denied alawyer during his pre sentencing
interview Idaho, get ittogether.
And in 2003, sentences tossedout for Hoffman, the federal
appellate court says juries, notjudges, have to determine
(01:00:56):
aggravating circumstances andsentence the criminals.
Which we've seen time and timeand time again.
Again, yeah.
In 2006, the 9th U.
S.
Circuit Court of Appeal rulesthat Hoffman has to be released
or re offered a plea deal.
(01:01:17):
That was, that he originallyturned down, and then there's
nothing.
There's nothing until Radiosilence.
2014.
Stephanie (01:01:26):
Damn.
Dani (01:01:28):
Hoffman is discharged.
What does that mean?
He's out.
Released?
I don't know.
I don't know.
What exactly?
He's not in jail anymore.
I don't know if he's dead.
I don't know these things I wishI did.
If I had money to go down to thecourthouse and pay their
(01:01:48):
ridiculous four 50 a page, Iwould know but I don't know.
and in 2020, wages isdischarged.
Rodney Shorty 57 was releasedjust last year in February, and
Merle lame.
Is 62 and released to nonparole.
(01:02:09):
That's
Stephanie (01:02:14):
incredible.
Like, just mind blowing.
Dani (01:02:17):
That's all I got.
I'd be happy to go down to thecourthouse, kids, and get all
that information, but
Stephanie (01:02:23):
they be charging buku bucks.
It is, it is ridiculous per pageto get transcripts.
It's supposed to be
Dani (01:02:29):
public information.
Thank you.
Stephanie (01:02:32):
I should be able
Dani (01:02:33):
to link that shit up online!
Stephanie (01:02:35):
This one has been wild to me.
Like I still can't get over howthey had some random girl who
was not deeply entrenched in thedrug scene, but doesn't seem.
Three plants.
Not
Dani (01:02:51):
deeply entrenched.
Stephanie (01:02:53):
is now putting forth and able to get seven
convictions?
That means that she was probablyhaving more tips.
this is not a big town,especially back then, and They
knew.
Dani (01:03:09):
They knew.
Stephanie (01:03:10):
So was she just a party girl that knew a bunch of
girls?
That was some pretty girl thatcould hang out with these people
or those people?
And knew some names?
Like
Dani (01:03:24):
You're like, I'm giving you one, bro.
And then I'm out.
Do you know what I mean?
Seven, and four, I'm, I totally,for the, it was irresponsible of
the Nampa Police Department.
Stephanie (01:03:39):
Yeah,
Dani (01:03:40):
to let her keep just go get another one.
All right.
Good job.
They're
Stephanie (01:03:44):
like, oh we offered you a job in room and board No,
you said I mean, what were theyreally offering her?
They the money wasn't going tocover
Dani (01:03:55):
her
Stephanie (01:03:55):
cost to move to Boise.
Dani (01:03:57):
No
Stephanie (01:03:59):
What were you offering her that she could I
mean anyone can
Dani (01:04:04):
And she, I'm going to tell you that her sister said she was
just such a giving person.
She was a good person and shehad worked, in, home health care
with seniors and also, or nothome health care, but re you
know, retirement, centers withseniors.
And she had also worked withdevelopmentally delayed, like
(01:04:25):
that job, you have to be acertain kind of a person.
She was a very giving person.
Yeah, you have to have a gentlesoul.
and so she was a good person.
She had a five and six year old,kids.
she was 27.
I just think she was caughtbetween a rock and a hard place
with these guys.
over a hundred dollar fine.
I mean that could be like nowlike maybe a 4, 000 fine like
(01:04:49):
and if you don't have, they'regonna put you in jail.
Stephanie (01:04:53):
And we all, who, who can be away from their job for,
Even if you're able to bond outin a week or two, what jobs are
going to forgive you for that?
And rent, and kids, and Or yourmortgage, like, what if you do
lose your job?
Now you've lost your car,because your car payment's
behind.
Like, it jeopardizes everything,because you know that it's just
(01:05:16):
such a flimsy house of cardsthat we all have it.
You know, a lot of people arevery well off financially.
I try to be as responsible as Ican and save as much as I can
and I have a little bit of abuffer.
But I can tell you, you know,most people are one medical bill
or one marijuana plant watchingfor your friend bill away from
(01:05:43):
it upending your entire life.
So
Dani (01:05:47):
and how sad, I mean, I just, it's, I, yeah, it's just
sad that, and what a horrible,horrible death.
Yeah.
Stephanie (01:05:57):
Anyway.
It was.
It's definitely a story that hadso many crazy factors in it.
A little dabble of
Dani (01:06:06):
everything.
Stephanie (01:06:07):
Yes, and so many characters, but.
Lots of characters.
R.
I.
P.
Denise.
Like, she should have never beenput in that position.
Ever.
She was not built for it, wasn'tmade for it, they took advantage
of her, so.
NPD.
Hmm.
80s NPD.
Not great.
Stop dibbly dabbling in theevidence room, please.
Dani (01:06:31):
Stop doing drugs.
1, 000.
Whoopee! Gotta drop that charge.
All
Stephanie (01:06:37):
the cocaine is gone.
Don't know what happened
Dani (01:06:41):
Somebody's like dude.
Look what I
Stephanie (01:06:43):
fucking
Dani (01:06:43):
caught at work.
Stephanie (01:06:44):
He's like party.
We are getting down This is the80s, you know, they're having
fun anyway Thank you guys forlistening, this has been another
episode of The Lethal Library.
You can reach out to us atTheLethalLibrary at gmail.
com.
Email us new tips and cases, welove to hear them.
(01:07:05):
Thank you Diana for
Dani (01:07:06):
emailing us.
Thank you for that.
And also, you can reach out tous on any of our socials and
also I wanted to give a shoutout to Lisa, who is, been a day
one listener and, gives me,positive feedback,
Stephanie (01:07:25):
We love to hear it.
We love you guys tips, tricks,and what you like to hear, what
you don't.
We know we're not everyone's cupof tea.
We'll do our best.
Dani (01:07:32):
Thanks for listening.
10 4, rubber ducky.
Fuck yeah.
Thank you for watching.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.