March 23, 2025 • 56 mins
In this episode, hosts Stephanie and Dani recount the disturbing true crime tale of Randy McKinney and Dovey Small. The couple's road trip from Arizona to Idaho in 1981 leads to a senseless murder fueled by drugs, desperation, and delusions of grandeur. Intended to be a quick stop in Malad, Idaho, to visit Small's sisters, the trip escalates into a plot to rob and kill their helpful friend Robert Bishop Jr. The aftermath includes chaotic decision-making, dramatic arrests, a "murder dog", and lengthy legal battles. Join us as we unravel this grim story and reflect on the lost lives and misguided choices.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stephanie (00:30):
Alright, welcome back to another episode of the Lethal
Library.
I'm Stephanie.
I'm Danny, and we are here totell you another tale of true
crime that Danny's got preparedfor us.
quick shout out to listenersthat are coming back every week
and visiting our TikTok.
We love your comments.
We love your emails, so.
(00:51):
Keep them coming.
We love that you love the show.
Or even if you don't love theshow, you can tell us.
But thank you guys forlistening.
So Danny, what's in store for ustoday?
Dani (01:02):
Don't be the nice guy.
Uh oh.
For one Idaho man, being thenice guy, got him killed.
Do you really know yourfriend's?
Friends?
Today I am going to tell you thestory of Randy McKinney and Dey
Small two Lovers turnedmurderers.
No sources used in today'sepisode are the South Idaho
(01:24):
Press, the Bitch, the IdahoStatesman, love Her and The
Times News.
Okay, 1981.
I Randy McKinney, age 19 and hisgirlfriend Doy Small 27, arrived
in Milad, Idaho on April 6th,1981.
(01:46):
I just, I'm gonna have to, Ihave to tell you this.
I love her name.
Do small.
It's Debbie Dovey.
Stephanie (01:54):
Dovey.
Okay.
Thank you for clearing that up.
I thought it was Debbie.
It sounds like small, such a
Dani (02:00):
petite, like it belongs like, it's like almost a
Stephanie (02:03):
movie star name.
Like Yeah,
Dani (02:05):
that's what I'm saying.
Stephanie (02:06):
That's a very cute name.
Um, quite the age gap though.
Very confusing with her beingmuch older.
Dani (02:13):
So I guess I could just tell you a little bit, about Doy
Small.
I really didn't have this in thestory, Let me tell you, a little
bit about her background.
she was raised, uh, aroma.
She didn't even learn Englishuntil she was seven.
Stephanie (02:34):
Really?
And she was here the whole time.
Yeah.
Dani (02:35):
In West Virginia.
Her father died when she wasseven.
And some people say he wasmurdered.
this is sad.
She also lost her three-year-olddaughter in a car accident.
Stephanie (02:48):
Oh
Dani (02:49):
my God.
And it almost killed her aswell.
She the, she was driving from,so she's from West Virginia.
She was driving from WestVirginia to Omaha, and she went
over 150 foot cliff
Stephanie (03:05):
and she survived.
Yeah.
Dani (03:06):
Her, her pelvis had to be wired together and all of her
teeth were knocked out.
Stephanie (03:12):
Oh my God.
And her
Dani (03:13):
daughter died, so I mean, she barely made it.
I mean, it's a tragic, it's atragic thing.
And she also.
when she was 21, her fiance waskilled three weeks before their
wedding in 1976.
So she, she's been through it,she's been through it.
And after her daughter died,drugs and motorcycle games were
(03:35):
her
Stephanie (03:37):
these damn motorcycle games.
That was her
Dani (03:39):
out.
Yep.
so yes, there's an agedifference, but I just.
I, I think she was a lost soul
Stephanie (03:49):
searching for something.
Yeah.
Dani (03:50):
Yeah.
And so she found comfort in andthese people that would take
care of her and mm-hmm.
So she just, she was a vagabond,like just traveling and just
Yeah.
Fitting in in different places.
So.
Stephanie (04:06):
Okay.
Very interesting.
Dani (04:07):
two lines into the story, and I'm already telling you
about her anyway.
They ended up in Milad afterhitchhiking through several
states, and they checked into amotel for the night they were in
Milad to see small sister AdaMangum and Kathy Mangu before
they continued the travels toMontana.
(04:28):
Never could figure out why theywere heading to Montana, but
that was the end goal.
Stephanie (04:32):
Okay.
Dani (04:34):
Small sisters lived in Blackfoot, Idaho, about an hour
away.
I'm just looking at the map.
I think that they, they hitcheda ride from like Salt Lake City.
Oh my
Stephanie (04:43):
gosh.
Up
Dani (04:44):
through, well they originally met in Arizona,
McKinney and small.
They met in Arizona and theywere hitchhiking through up to,
Montana, but they wanted to stophere
Stephanie (04:56):
in Idaho.
How to see the sissies.
Dani (04:59):
Yes.
and Milad is.
About an hour away fromBlackfoot, but it's on the trail
from, if I, I looked at the mapand it's like, oh, they hitched
a ride like Salt Lake City area.
Right?
But small, didn't wanna stay inIdaho for long.
She had a felony warrant in thestate.
(05:22):
Dunno what it was for, but shehad a felony warrant.
She said,
Stephanie (05:25):
yeah, we gotta make it this a quick trip.
I just
Dani (05:26):
gotta stop and see my sissies.
And then we're out the nextmorning.
Ada and Kathy found a friend todrive them to Milad to pick up
McKinney and small and bringthem back to Blackfoot.
Stephanie (05:38):
Okay.
Dani (05:40):
When her sisters arrived in Milad to pick'em up from the
motel, small showed her sisterAda a handgun that was lying on
the table of their motel room.
McKinney stated, this is bigtime.
No more penny Andy.
Stephanie (05:59):
No more what?
Dani (06:00):
Penny Andy.
Is that a term I'm not familiarwith Auntie.
It's, uh, anti up poker.
Like, oh, okay.
No more penny aunties.
Like,
Stephanie (06:11):
we're doing the big stuff.
Dani (06:12):
Yeah.
Stephanie (06:13):
Ooh, okay.
Dani (06:15):
It's a, it was kind of a unique thing that he said, and I
was like, oh, but auntie is whatyou do.
Mm-hmm.
Stephanie (06:20):
Like up the ante.
Yeah.
And poker.
Okay.
Dani (06:24):
Later that evening.
Ada called her friend.
So they, they all went back toBlackfoot.
Stephanie (06:30):
Mm-hmm.
Dani (06:31):
Like sissies.
There was, you know,
Stephanie (06:34):
probably very excited for a reunion
Dani (06:37):
Ada called her friend Robert Bishop Jr.
To see if he would driveMcKinney and small to the
interstate the next day so theycould continue to hitchhike to
Montana because they were offthe interstate at that point.
Mm-hmm.
Right in the lab on the way yougot up, Blackfoot not on the
way.
Robert called back the nextmorning and said, yeah, I can do
that for you.
(06:57):
Sister Kathy watched as McKinneycleaned his gun while they were
waiting for Robert McKinneyagain stated he was going quote
big time and he was going toquote, blow him away.
Yeah.
Stephanie (07:13):
The person that's coming to get them.
Or does she maybe assume thatthey're robbing places or he
doesn't specifically
Dani (07:21):
say, it was Robert, but I just think he was talking a lot
of shit.
'cause he had a gun.
Stephanie (07:27):
It sounds like it.
Dani (07:29):
And he was 19.
Stephanie (07:30):
Yeah.
Dani (07:34):
Robert arrived a short time later and McKinney and
Small loaded their stuff intothe vehicle, the group.
So I just wanna make it clearwho's here.
It's Robert.
And McKinney and small, and bothof her sisters, ADA and Kathy
that got into the car, theydropped Kathy off at her house.
(07:57):
So now we're down to, RobertMcKinney Small and her sister
ate ADA They dropped Kathy ather house and proceeded to the
store to buy cigarettes, beer,and soda.
Sounds like a good time.
Stephanie (08:11):
Yeah.
Ready to go.
Dani (08:13):
It was decided that they would take the route through
Arco Idaho.
Towards Montana.
Stephanie (08:18):
Okay.
Dani (08:19):
They went this way because small needed to make a quick
stop in Arco
Stephanie (08:23):
For what?
Dani (08:24):
She said.
A woman, Jackie Willis.
Owed her money for a car.
Stephanie (08:29):
Damn it, Jackie.
Dani (08:31):
And they stopped at a couple of bars in Arco and drank
some more beer and played pool.
They grouped them packed up andwent to the home of Denise
Garner.
Lots of names, so it's okay.
Denise lived with Jackie Willis'son Casey.
So it was Jackie's son's,girlfriend's house.
(08:53):
Okay.
And small had known Casey as17-year-old convicted felon for
a while
Stephanie (09:05):
that's young, for being a felon
Dani (09:09):
and that he was not in jail.
Stephanie (09:10):
Right.
Dani (09:11):
small had helped Casey hide from the law a few times.
Stephanie (09:15):
So we're all good friends here?
Dani (09:17):
Yep.
We're besties.
Casey said he would show themwhere his mother Jackie lived.
Such a weird dynamic.
Stephanie (09:24):
I know.
Like,
Dani (09:25):
like, oh, you wanna know where my mom is?
She owes you money.
I'll take you there.
Yeah.
Y
Stephanie (09:30):
bring your gun.
Dani (09:32):
I don't know if she said that your mom owe the, owe the
money.
The, she might've said, take meto your mom.
I don't
Stephanie (09:36):
know.
Yeah.
We're all friends.
We're all
Dani (09:37):
friends here, right?
Mm-hmm.
Small and Ada rode with Casey inhis car, and Robert and McKinney
followed to go over to Jackie'shouse during the drive.
Small told Casey that she and McMcKinney had quote a piece, and
(09:59):
if Jackie's husband gave themany trouble, she would blow his
crap away.
Stephanie (10:04):
They are ready to blow someone away.
Dani (10:06):
That's kind of, they're
Stephanie (10:07):
almost like itching for it.
Dani (10:09):
Yeah.
And small earlier had pointedthe gun out of the window of the
car and shot at a, at a house.
Stephanie (10:16):
Oh, we're just casually doing drive-bys now
Dani (10:19):
just for shits and gigs and in these small towns.
Stephanie (10:23):
I'm surprised they didn't have a bunch of people
after'em.
Dani (10:27):
So they finally get to Jackie's McKinney took the gun
back from small because, quote,he didn't want her to do
something stupid.
Stephanie (10:36):
I feel like there's a propensity for stupidity from
both of these parties, but Sure.
Who, whoever's the responsibleone in the moment, who's the
least drunk?
Dani (10:47):
Uh, yeah.
In drugs, I'm sure.
Drugs.
Lot of drugs.
So it got heated at Jackie'shouse.
Hmm.
When Jackie refused to givesmall any money.
Stephanie (10:57):
Uh oh.
Dani (10:58):
Mm-hmm.
They left empty handed and wentback to Casey and Denise's
house.
On the drive back, small toldCasey that her and McKinney were
gonna kill Robert because he hada lot of money, credit cards,
and a nice car.
Stephanie (11:16):
Oh, so they're gonna take it out on poor Robert.
He had nothing to do with this.
Dani (11:20):
Exactly.
Stephanie (11:22):
You didn't have the balls to shoot someone who did
owe you money.
I'm not saying they should have,but you talked to all this game,
we don't get what we want.
And if you feel rightfully owed.
You couldn't do it there, butyou're just like
Dani (11:36):
the guy that gave you a ride.
Stephanie (11:38):
Yeah.
So strange.
Dani (11:41):
Back at Casey's house, Robert sat on the couch in the
living room and played aroundwith some of the kids that were
there,
Stephanie (11:47):
just entertaining the kids.
And Ada and Kathy, this is liketheir friend, right?
Dani (11:51):
It's ADA's friend.
Yeah.
Stephanie (11:53):
And you're just chill, like, oh, everybody's
Dani (11:56):
chill.
Stephanie (11:57):
Oh, bummer.
You're gonna, and he
Dani (11:58):
is just probably literally sitting on the, he.
He offered to give these guys aride.
Sure.
He's kind of now into it like,okay, I'll just hang out and
wait until you guys figure outwhen you wanna leave.
That's what I imagine happened.
Stephanie (12:09):
And there, like you said, there's some drugs
involved, so we're all justhaving a grand old time.
Yeah.
He
Dani (12:14):
was just chilling, partying.
McKinney and Small went into thekitchen.
Denise was in and outta thekitchen, but Casey stood nearby
and he overheard small tellMcKinney that they had to leave
the state.
Because she has a warrant.
Stephanie (12:31):
Yeah.
They gotta get outta there.
And
Dani (12:32):
she just had that altercation at Jackie's.
Stephanie (12:35):
They, and they're shooting at houses like,
whoopsie.
We did some drive-bys onaccident.
We might wanna leave
Dani (12:46):
McKinney said, well, let's go get the job done and get out
of here.
Stephanie (12:53):
Uh,
Dani (12:53):
this is not going well.
Stephanie (12:55):
No.
Dani (12:57):
Small said quote, Casey owes me one.
And then she had asked Casey ifhe would kill Robert.
Stephanie (13:05):
And now you can't even do it after talking all
this shit.
What's going on here?
Casey said, Nope.
He's like, uh, yeah, y'all, I, Iknow.
We like to get crazy.
I mean, I'm a felon.
We like to party, but you'rekidding.
This is escalating.
Why would I kill the, I mean,he's playing with the kids.
Dani (13:24):
Yeah.
McKinney said he would takeRobert out to the desert, shoot
him, and then burn the body, andsmall said quote.
That sounds like a good idea.
Stephanie (13:34):
Yeah, that that's a totally normal conversation
Dani (13:38):
in front of other pe.
Stephanie (13:40):
Very brash and.
We gotta do what we gotta do.
Lots of audacity is happeninghere.
Dani (13:47):
Let's just kill the guy that's giving us a ride to the
interstate.
So, yeah, burn his
Stephanie (13:51):
body in the desert.
We know how to do that.
Dani (13:54):
I do not know what's going on here, but for some reason,
sister Ada called the owner of alocal bar, the Antler Club, to
let them know they would be downin a few minutes.
Are they like specialcelebrities?
Stephanie (14:11):
Maybe they're very popular in this town.
They're like, ADA's coming.
Or maybe, maybe, I don't know,maybe like, I have
Dani (14:19):
never pre-call a bar and said, um, I'm coming.
Stephanie (14:22):
We'll be down soon.
Please make sure the paparazziisn't there.
Thank you.
What is happening?
I don't,
Dani (14:27):
I don't get it.
Don't need
Stephanie (14:29):
make it drugs.
Maybe they're like, have ourcocaine ready.
I don't know.
Dani (14:35):
Casey and Denise stayed home wisely.
Stay home with those kids.
Yeah, so yeah, do not goRobert's down.
He drove the rest of the groupdown to the bar and somebody on
the drive suggested they goTarget shooting with McKinney's
gun.
Stephanie (14:55):
Obviously as you do, it sounds like this is probably
evening time as well, like.
Let's go shoot some guns.
Maybe even we've had enough ofthe drive-bys.
Let's go.
Target shooting.
Dani (15:09):
Robert and McKinney left after they dropped small and
Sister A off at the bar.
Stephanie (15:15):
Hmm.
Dani (15:16):
We're gonna go shoot some guns on the desert.
We'll be back.
Ladies, go have a drink.
Stephanie (15:21):
There will be gunshot.
I feel
Dani (15:24):
15 minutes later, McKinney came back and said, quote, let's
go.
That was quick.
It was very quick.
The women saw Robert's car, buthe wasn't around.
When they asked about RobertMcKinney said he had quote, shot
him once in the stomach and fivetimes in the head
Stephanie (15:46):
Excessive.
And also, I mean, so who all'sat the bar?
So it's, it's small.
And her sister Ada.
You're saying this in front ofAda, like, did you not like this
dude very much?
Was this just some guy that wasobsessed with you or something,
or And Ada was the one thatcalled him?
Yeah,
Dani (16:06):
ADA called and was like.
Hey y'all.
Why didn't
Stephanie (16:08):
they feel the need to lie and be like, oh, he wasn't
feeling good, but said we couldstill use his car.
No,
Dani (16:13):
it was just McKinney and Robert.
Yeah.
That went out to go shoot thegun.
So there was four people in thecar.
McKinney went with Robert to goshoot his gun
Stephanie (16:24):
target practice.
All, all very weird.
Dani (16:29):
It is weird.
It's I drug fueled, I imagine.
Mm-hmm.
Small, and Ada said that theydidn't believe him.
They're like, you didn't.
You didn't shoot him.
So McKinney says, Hmm, I'll showyou
Stephanie (16:46):
weird.
Now we're going on a field trip.
Dani (16:48):
Field trip.
The group drove Robert's car toan old gravel pit just outside
of town where they saw Robertlying on the ground.
Ada lost it and becamehysterical, she said.
You take me back to Blackfoot.
I am done with this shit.
Like she was over
Stephanie (17:08):
it.
So what did you think of all theprevious conversation?
I mean, I don't know how you canbe like, oh, we're just joking
around.
We have tons of friends from alldifferent backgrounds and no
one's like, ha, you know what?
Danny said something to me.
I'm gonna take her to a gravelpit and shoot her brains out.
And everyone's like, oh, Steph,this joker.
(17:31):
Steph.
She's so fucking funny.
She's cleaning her gun now.
She says she's gonna blow herass away.
Oh, now they're going on a fieldtrip.
What?
Mm-hmm.
Like, I mean, I'm glad thatsomeone was like, what the fuck?
But Ada,
Dani (17:46):
what did you think
Stephanie (17:47):
was gonna happen?
Dani (17:47):
What?
Okay.
Small said quote, you didn'thave to shoot him.
And McKinney replied.
Quote, he had proved his love ofhis woman.
Stephanie (18:04):
Okay.
Yeah.
Y'all are high as fuck becausefor one, uh, Ms.
Smalls, you knew about this.
And two, how is that provingyour love?
I mean, we gotta do what wegotta do right now.
We're big time.
I told you I was doing the bigtime.
Big time.
(18:25):
I'm a certified gangster.
Dani (18:28):
So they dropped hysterical sister Ada off at her house in
Blackfoot and headed back overto Sister Kathy's house Small,
had told her that McKinney hadshot Robert.
She's like, SIS, my guy herekilled Robert.
You know, the nice guy playingwith the kids and giving us a
(18:49):
ride dead.
Stephanie (18:52):
Not quote, but how did Kathy react?
Dani (18:54):
Well, Kathy then asked.
Kathy then asked for Robert'sleather jacket and Small gave it
to her, and I just want, thiswas in the context of a memento,
a keepsake for him.
That's how she was asking forthis stuff.
So small, gave it to her, butthen Kathy also asked for his
(19:18):
wallet,
Stephanie (19:19):
but they wanted the wallet
Dani (19:22):
and they said, no, you cannot have that for a keepsake.
Thank you.
Stephanie (19:25):
We actually wanted that for our keepsake.
Mm-hmm.
For a memento.
I'm floored.
Dani (19:33):
I'm just saying if I found out somebody was shot, I
wouldn't be like, and that mysister's boyfriend shot them.
I'd be like, can I have a sleather jacket?
I love.
It's such a nice step.
I'd be like, get the fuck outtamy house.
Well, and why did he, and I'mcalling the cops after you
leave.
Stephanie (19:50):
Ugh.
Like, and just that they alsohad the audacity to tell Kathy
after Ada responded so badly,oh.
Like, oh, ADA's having a heartattack.
Let's tell Kathy too.
I'd be like, uh, we got kind ofa bad reaction on that one.
We, we didn't read the roomapparently, so maybe we just
don't tell Kathy and we justsay, you know, he let us use his
(20:13):
car or What the hell
Dani (20:15):
So after the wallet denial, McKinney and small drove
to Pocatello and used Robert'scredit card to buy gas.
Stephanie (20:24):
Now they got them cards.
They were wanting so bad,
Dani (20:28):
they called ADA and said they were coming back to
Blackfoot to get Small's dog.
Stephanie (20:34):
And you forgot the dog.
They are fucked up.
Dani (20:38):
Yeah.
Oh shit.
I forgot the dog.
And all this murder business andhysterical sisters and stealing
credit cards and buying gas.
If you're
Stephanie (20:47):
shooting up houses and shooting people, forgot the
dogs.
You might just, if you forgotthe dog, you might wanna cut
your loss.
At that point, I'd be a littleparanoid.
Dani (20:54):
I'm gonna tell you, basically this whole scenario
was the dog's fault.
Stephanie (21:00):
Oh, e,
Dani (21:01):
everything.
The dog was the murderer.
Stephanie (21:06):
That dog, you know, it was holding the, the gun.
Um, with his disposable thumbs,you should have seen them.
You can train the dog duty justabout anything these days.
Very talented.
Dani (21:20):
So Ada told her husband and his friends about the
shooting and the police hadalready been called, somebody
had already called the police.
So by the time these yahoos werefucking driving back to get her
dog, the cops already knew, likenobody's keeping quiet'cause
somebody was rational.
(21:40):
Somebody said, ow.
Oh, we don't be shooting people
Stephanie (21:44):
in a gravel pit.
Like and telling, why did theyeven tell anyone?
Like just say that he said, Igotta go home.
I'm sick, but use my car.
People wouldn't have found outfor days maybe.
Who knows?
But you have to tell this fair.
I shot somebody,
Dani (22:01):
I shot somebody, I shot somebody.
I shot somebody.
He's dead.
He's dead.
That's what they did.
Stephanie (22:07):
And then they're telling other people immediately
like, yeah,
Dani (22:11):
well Ada was fucking hyster.
She was,
Stephanie (22:14):
that's what's confusing is she sounded like
she was very down.
Why ended up in that
Dani (22:17):
situation, which I, I hoped I would never be in a
situation where somebody told methey shot somebody.
I would very calm.
Stephanie (22:25):
Yes.
Dani (22:26):
Oh, take me home.
Lock my fucking doors.
Tell my husband and call the co.
I would be telling my husband.
The same time I was telling thepolice.
Stephanie (22:38):
Yeah, absolutely not.
Dani (22:39):
No.
I'd be like, okay, I'm nothysterical.
I'm
Stephanie (22:42):
calm.
Oh, cool.
You're, you're big time,
Dani (22:46):
big
Stephanie (22:46):
time.
No, no.
Penny auntie here.
Wow.
Very cool.
Cool story, bro.
Dani (22:53):
I'm hungry anyway.
I
Stephanie (22:54):
I do need to get home though.
Uh, thank you.
So, got dinner to cook
Dani (22:59):
or?
Stephanie (22:59):
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
You gonna wash my hair?
Yeah.
Bye.
Dani (23:04):
So anyways, ADA had
Stephanie (23:07):
blabbed
Dani (23:07):
blabbed and they, everybody was calling the cops
like, Hey.
So they were waiting for them topick up the murder dog.
Um, so McKinney and Small werestopped by a police officer
outside of ADA's house'causethey were waiting for them.
(23:28):
This, this astounded me.
McKinney got out of the car andwalked straight for the police
officer.
Stephanie (23:38):
Ugh.
Dani (23:40):
It's a small town.
Very small.
I don't know.
I didn't look.
I should have looked it up.
Stephanie (23:45):
Well, lad's, very tiny and especially, this is in
the eighties.
Oh, this is an Arco.
Dani (23:49):
Oh, okay.
Wait, maybe they're inBlackfoot.
Blackfoot still.
They're foot black one, stilltiny, whatever.
They're all little.
so we got outta the car andwalked straight for the officer,
and I think that this just tookthe cop back.
Like, he's like, whoa, whoa,whoa.
This isn't how this is supposedto go.
Yeah.
And so the officer returned tohis patrol car probably calling
(24:09):
for backup.
Yeah.
Like, he's like, um, this, um,he walking up to me.
He's not running, not scared,he's being aggressive.
So when the officer returned tohis patrol car, McKinney just
walked into Sister ADA's house.
Stephanie (24:24):
Nothing to see here.
Just getting the dog.
They can't murder dog.
They can't pull me over.
They can't stop me.
Dani (24:29):
Small had taken off too.
She was later found hiding.
And Sister ADA's bathroom.
You're not getting away.
No,
Stephanie (24:41):
they're already
Dani (24:42):
there.
So, uh, we did take a break.
Stephanie (24:47):
We did.
We made an oopsie.
So if you've noticed adifference in the sound,
Dani (24:54):
we left the fan on.
Sorry
Stephanie (24:56):
about that.
Um, because it'd be hot
Dani (24:57):
in here,
Stephanie (24:58):
it does get hot in here.
But if you notice a change, weare, sorry.
We're sorry.
We don't really wanna rerecordit though, so please forgive us
if there is a weird soundquality for the first 25 minutes
or so.
Our cheapest apologies.
We are not revenge at all.
Dani (25:16):
And we didn't even
Stephanie (25:16):
realize it.
No, I cannot believe it.
We did not realize it the wholetime we're so I just looked at
it and was like.
Oh, damn it.
So anyway, we're back.
Hopefully the sound is good foryou.
Love you guys so much.
Thanks for, bearing throughthat.
Dani (25:37):
All right.
so when McKinney's in the house,he asked sister Ada what she had
told the police and ADA'shusband yelled.
Quote, what the hell do youthink she said?
She told the truth
Stephanie (25:54):
and now you're coming over here to get your dog like
the murder dog.
You should have just kept onyour merry little way.
Dani (26:01):
McKinney responded, quote, well, looks like I'm going for
murder.
Stephanie (26:08):
I can't believe the cops let him walk in there
knowing that they were the.
What if he wanted to do a bigtime and now,'cause he knows he
is going and all the drugsinvolved, he's like, well, pop,
pop, pop.
Dani (26:21):
I think maybe this is what I'm envisioning, like I've, in
my head, like the, the policeofficer that was sent there was
not expecting that reaction.
No.
And so then can you imaginepulling up on somebody being
like, I'm gonna get you.
(26:42):
Come talk to me and they'relike, I don't give a fuck what
you're wearing.
I don't give a fuck what badgeyou are.
And just
Stephanie (26:49):
boom, boom,
Dani (26:50):
and just, yeah, charging at you.
Basically, he charged at him andhe is like, whoa, whoa, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Holy shit.
I, Becca, I would've got back inmy car too.
I'm surprised they didn'talready
Stephanie (27:04):
have backup I would've been
Dani (27:05):
expecting over.
Stephanie (27:06):
Well, it's a big police chase.
Dani (27:09):
But also maybe they were thinking, oh, it's rumors.
'cause they hadn't found a bodyyet.
So they're like, all right.
Somebody called and said theyshot somebody and we're just
gonna go check it out.
But I don't know, I just thinkvery strange.
It was a small time.
Mm-hmm.
Small time.
City, town, like very tiny.
Stephanie (27:31):
Yeah.
Dani (27:31):
So.
I don't, think that they wereexpecting that reaction,
reaction from McKinney and theyweren't prepared for it.
No.
Clearly, clearly, big timepolice came into the house and
Ada again told the police thatMcKinney had shot Robert, and
(27:52):
I'm imagining a lot of screamingand.
Freaking out.
Stephanie (27:56):
Well,'cause I'd be like, why did you let him walk
in here?
Why is
Dani (27:58):
he here?
I just told you like we toldyou, and then you just let him
walk into our house.
Like I'd be scared if I was Ada.
Same.
But once the police were in thehouse,'cause he said, you know
Yeah.
McKinney said, yeah, I'mcatching a murder charge.
Right.
But once the police were in thehouse, he was like, quote, I
didn't kill anybody.
Stephanie (28:21):
Now we're finally trying some self preservation
here.
Okay?
Sure, bro.
It was
Dani (28:27):
the dog.
McKinney was placed in custody.
They searched Robert's car andfound a 22 caliber handgun and a
purse.
We know it was Small's purse.
Mm-hmm.
And Robert's wallet small andAda showed the police where
Robert's body was.
Stephanie (28:48):
But he didn't kill anybody.
How did he know?
Right.
Robert was only 25.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
And was just trying to be, hethought he was a member of the
gang, like our little party.
Oh, you need me to help you out,friends, I got you.
Yeah.
Playing with the kids, drivingyou around.
Probably had a
Dani (29:07):
good job.
I, I did try to find at least anobit and I couldn't, so I, my
apologies.
I wish I knew more about him.
But he was from Pocatello.
That's it.
And he was 25.
And I hate that'cause I reallydo.
Mm-hmm.
Wanna know a little bit moreabout him.
But, I just think he was a goodguy.
He probably had a decent job andhad had enough money to have a
(29:29):
car
Stephanie (29:30):
and he was like the richer friend in the group or
something.
Yeah.
And thought that he was friendswith everyone but.
People were talking aboutkilling him hours before his
murder, and
Dani (29:41):
he's just hanging out.
He is like, yeah, I'll give yourfriends a ride.
I'll give what I'll give sister.
What a shame.
It's bullshit.
And I bet you Ada, Phil's somuch guilt.
Mm-hmm.
I don't think that was herintention at all.
But also, did you not pick up onthe.
The clues that was being th bigdump and blah, blah, blah.
(30:02):
But yeah, I'm
Stephanie (30:02):
gonna shoot him.
I'm gonna, we're gonna take acard.
And she, she should
Dani (30:06):
have been
Stephanie (30:06):
like,
Dani (30:07):
what the fuck?
Stephanie (30:08):
Yeah.
Dani (30:08):
What are you saying?
Stephanie (30:10):
Anyway, psychos
Dani (30:13):
McKinney was interviewed by the police later that night.
He said he wasn't an Arco, buteventually.
He started to cry and said heaccidentally shot Robert while
they were target shooting.
You took them to the body?
she did.
Stephanie (30:30):
Oh, okay.
Dani (30:31):
Small did and Ada sister.
Ada did.
So he is like, I wasn't, Iwasn't even in Arco.
Yeah.
Okay.
Hold on.
But then he broke down, startedto cry.
It was an accident.
He blamed.
The fucking dog.
How he said the little dog wasnipping at his heels, but he
(30:59):
couldn't remember anything afterthat.
But going back to the bar to getthe girls and then showing them
the body,
Stephanie (31:09):
none of that makes logical sense.
Murder dog.
If you didn't remember killingsomeone, how do you remember to
take them back and show themwhere the body is?
Dani (31:17):
McKinney was charged with first degree murder, robbery,
conspiracy to commit, murder andconspiracy to commit robbery so
much,
Stephanie (31:29):
no shit.
Dani (31:30):
Small was not charged, but she's being held as a material
witness.
Stephanie (31:35):
Okay.
Dani (31:36):
She was finally interviewed and an exchange she
will be released.
The deposition was in front ofMcKinney and his attorney
cross-examined her.
Stephanie (31:49):
That'd be intimidating.
Very.
Yeah.
Dani (31:55):
In September, small is charged with first degree
murder.
Eating and abetting conspiracyto commit murder and conspiracy
to commit.
Commit robbery.
She was also pregnant withMcKinney's child and she was
released on September 17th.
So part of the reason that shewas released was a big pregnant.
(32:21):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, they really don't, in these small town, they don't
have the facility.
No.
For.
Stephanie (32:28):
A lot of people at all.
Right.
Dani (32:29):
Uh, let alone a pregnant woman who needs to go to a
doctor.
Mm-hmm.
And all that kind of stuff.
but also part of the thing waslike, you gotta give us,'cause
she's being held like Samara,remember back in Yes.
We're just gonna hold you andtell you, tell us something.
And so she's like, fine, I willtell you something.
So they did do that, and thatwas a condition of her being
(32:50):
released.
Not Samira.
She was 10 toes down.
Oh.
She's like, I'm here forever.
Yeah, I'll stay in here OnNovember 2nd, 1981, McKinney's
trial begins.
I just wanna say I'm stillamazed how fast they push these
trials through.
Stephanie (33:08):
Yeah, there are ready to go.
Dani (33:11):
A firearms expert, Richard Craven, testified that the
weight of the trigger pull.
Of the 22 caliber gun was one ofthe heaviest he'd ever
encountered.
Stephanie (33:23):
So you have to be really trying to shoot this gun,
especially, I think it was sixtimes, five times in the head,
one time in the stomach.
Mm-hmm.
Dani (33:30):
Well, that was what you're gonna hear a little bit more
about from a pathologist, butthe gun was passed to the jury
so they could test itthemselves, which blew my mind.
Sitting in a jury box goingclick, that's a little click,
strange click they did.
small.
Was unable to testify at thetrial'cause of the marriage or
(33:53):
They were not married.
Oh, she was in the hospital dueto complications of her
pregnancy.
Oh.
But parts of her deposition wereused reused.
She literally gave birth duringthis trial.
Oh my gosh.
Mm-hmm.
a pathologist testified Robertwas shot once in the chest and
(34:16):
four times in the head at closerange.
Based on the amount of bloodfound in Robert's lungs, it was
determined that the shots in thehead occurred.
This is important, five to 10minutes, up to one to two hours
after the chest shot.
Stephanie (34:36):
Oh, but he was back in 15 minutes.
Dani (34:40):
Just keep that in your pocket.
Stephanie (34:41):
Okay.
Dani (34:43):
Bullet fragments found during the autopsy were
consistent with the ones firedfrom the gun found in Robert's
car.
McKinney testified at his owntrial.
Oof.
He said he accidentally shotRobert because Small's murder
dog.
(35:04):
Was nipping at his pant legwhile Robert was setting up the
bottles for target practice.
Stephanie (35:10):
Why would you be like pointing this gun?
This dog is biting my ankle.
Ah.
Five shots.
What?
You gotta think of somethingbetter than that.
Say he attacked you orsomething.
Say he came onto you.
Murder dog.
(35:31):
The dog was biting my heels, soI had to shoot my acquaintance.
Dani (35:37):
I don't know if, if I've ever been target practice,
nobody is pointing a gun at thetargets while somebody is
setting up Said targets.
Yeah.
That's not how that works, butdude, don't shoot me.
I'm just gonna go set up thesebottles.
How about nobody points thefucking gun up.
Yeah.
And ready?
That's.
Anyway.
What the fuck?
It's a stretch, sir.
(35:59):
It's a stretch.
More
Stephanie (36:00):
than a stretch.
I don't even know what to callthat.
Like I was aiming at the bottlesthat my friend was placing,
pointing a gun at him, and I'dbe like, put the fucking gun
down, bro.
Yeah.
What the fuck?
Anyone would be like, uh, excuseme.
Dani (36:13):
Why are you pointing the gun while I'm setting up?
We're not ready.
Yeah, not ready.
Murder dog.
Fuck Jesus.
When Robert fell to the groundafter being shot, and, and this
is McKinney's testimony, right?
Mm-hmm.
So when Robert fell to theground after being shot, he went
(36:33):
to town and grabbed the ladies.
Stephanie (36:37):
Yeah.
Dani (36:38):
And like remember, like, mm-hmm.
I shut them, blah, blah, blah.
They returned to the scene ofthe crime and small for some
reason, just grabbed the gun andshe went up and shot Robert in
the head several times.
Hmm Hmm.
McKinney also denied anypre-planned murder slash robbery
(37:02):
except for their big time.
No more Penny auntie.
Stephanie (37:06):
Telling people that you're literally gonna kill this
dude to take his credit cards.
Yeah, sure.
Oh, except
Dani (37:11):
for that there's no pre-planned nothing.
Stephanie (37:14):
It was the
Dani (37:15):
fucking dog.
Stephanie (37:16):
Yeah.
If that damn dog wouldn't havebit me, I wouldn't have shot my
friend.
Dani (37:21):
Mm.
On November 12th, after threehours of deliberation, the jury
came back guilty on all charges.
Stephanie (37:29):
Easy peasy.
Apparently.
Dani (37:31):
Yeah.
Stephanie (37:32):
To like, can the dog get
Dani (37:34):
convicted?
That's 10
Stephanie (37:36):
days after the trial starts.
Dani (37:38):
Yeah.
No, and this, it happened inJune.
Yeah.
In June.
That's not how Kohlberg'sfucking, what we two and a half
years in?
Stephanie (37:51):
Yeah.
Dani (37:51):
Fuck that guy.
Did you see the selfie?
Stephanie (37:55):
Yeah.
What a fucking creep.
Dani (37:57):
Uh, who buttons the top
Stephanie (37:58):
button?
Trench coat button to the top
Dani (38:03):
fucking weirdo.
Okay.
In February of 1982, smallstrial begins.
McKinney refuses to testify andpleads the fifth.
Mm.
There's a, he hasn't.
I mean, he was found guilty, buthe hasn't been sentenced.
It's also his baby mama.
(38:25):
Mm-hmm.
Even though he said what?
She actually killed him'causeshe just took the gun and
fucking shot him in the hood.
On March 4th, after two hours ofdeliberation, the jury found
small guilty of first degreemurder conspiracy to commit
murder, robbery, and conspiracyto commit robbery.
(38:47):
I don't understand all thesecharges.
Stephanie (38:50):
Anyway, they're just trying to get whatever they can,
I think,
Dani (38:52):
and Idaho does.
Mm-hmm.
Stephanie (38:54):
Like we're gonna just slam you just in case they
can't, you know, there's appealson one thing and it's just
Dani (38:58):
a case.
'cause it's coming.
After the sentencing hearing onMarch 27th, McKinney was
sentenced to death.
Ooh.
He was also sentenced to fixlife for robbery, plus a
consecutive 15 years for afirearms enhancement, an
indeterminate 30 years forconspiracy to commit murder, and
(39:19):
an indeterminate 30 years forconspiracy to commit robbery.
Stephanie (39:24):
Wow, we, wow.
No, they're like fucking done.
Because you think about that,you mean what if you conspire to
commit a murder or a robbery andyou never do it 30 years for
each?
Don't you plan a murder ski?
It's just a bit, I'm not sayingit's wrong because I mean Jesus,
(39:45):
but whoa.
Dani (39:47):
Yeah.
Yikes.
Those big time and Penny anticomments came back to, yeah,
they came up to show'em.
Yeah.
You want big time?
Stephanie (39:55):
Here's your big time.
Here's your big time, bro.
You
Dani (39:58):
are big time.
On June 18th, Debbie Small wassentenced to two life sentences.
Yikes.
I still don't understand how youcan get two life sentences when
only one person died, but that'snot, I don't.
Maybe with more practice.
(40:18):
I will understand.
The defense says it's excessivebecause she wasn't there.
She didn't actually do themurder, and the prosecution said
it's not enough because the guythat sh shot her got death, like
(40:39):
had the death penalty.
Mm.
Both of the, both the prosecution and the defense
appeal.
The conviction,
Stephanie (40:49):
they're like, oh, that's too little for you, or
That's too much for us.
It's too much for us.
The prosecution
Dani (40:54):
wanted her to have the death penalty.
Stephanie (40:56):
Oh, she would've been the first, they were going hard.
Yeah.
Dani (40:59):
She would've been the first woman up for the death
penalty.
And as we know, Carla WinDor wasit.
Mm-hmm.
But she, they wanted her,
Stephanie (41:08):
she was gonna be the first one.
Dani (41:11):
Mm-hmm.
So here we are.
Pills, appeal pills.
and so that was, geez, 82.
Okay.
Stephanie (41:21):
Okay.
Dani (41:22):
In 89, McKinney did have an execution date set, but of
course it was stayed.
Mm-hmm.
And there's so many appeal.
I'm just gonna highlight acouple, in 1993.
McKinney files an affidavitstating that small was innocent
(41:42):
and he killed Robert alone.
Stephanie (41:45):
Okay.
Real convenient for you to saythat now.
Dani (41:48):
Like it's like 12 years later or something like
Stephanie (41:50):
Yeah.
Damage is done.
Yeah.
If that's the truth.
Dani (41:55):
Well, I do think that he killed him alone.
Mm-hmm.
But he was just trying.
Because there was testimony thatRobert could have survived the
gunshot wound.
Stephanie (42:10):
So what if they come back and he's like,
Dani (42:12):
and then small popped him in the head.
Mm-hmm.
Four times.
That's what actually killed him.
but now he's feeling like anasshole because he actually shot
him five times for blaming thislady.
So.
Hmm.
in 1999, Joan Fisher comes onthe scene.
(42:37):
Joan Fisher has been in previouspodcasts.
Yep.
She's represented BrianLangford.
Paul Rhodes.
We have not done on my list,David Card, not on my list, but,
and Timothy Dunlap, which wedid.
Mm, yes.
Because she is a badass.
(42:57):
Attorney like she gets, this isher
Stephanie (42:59):
wheelhouse.
Dani (42:59):
She gets people off death row So Joan Fisher is trying to
get McKinney off death row.
She wants the conviction voided.
And she told the Idaho SupremeCourt that McKinney's trial
attorney was denied keyprosecution information and that
he did not get effective legalrepresentation.
It's a good route to drive.
(43:21):
I, so in my research there was,prosecution notes.
Mm-hmm.
And one of, remember how hard itwas for them to pull the gun?
One of the notes said Tightenthe barrel.
Oh, inside thoughts, sir?
Yeah.
(43:43):
Interesting.
Remember how that that firearmsexpert was like very impactful.
This is the toughest triggerI've ever.
So if a
Stephanie (43:52):
dog did bite you, you would, you would still have to
be.
I'm trying
Dani (43:59):
their whole thing.
I didn't say that.
Their whole thing was, theydidn't think that small could
have up pulled that trigger.
She was a tiny woman.
That was kind of their
Stephanie (44:13):
thing that they were.
I hear that, but I can't imaginea trigger too hard to pull even
if you've tightened it, like ifyou wanna pull it,
Dani (44:22):
but that's what they were saying.
No, I, it's frail woman.
Camp and I'm like, uh, In 2009,the court ruled that McKinney
was entitled to be re-sentenceddue to the ineffective counsel
at his capital sentence hearing.
and this was all based on notbringing up.
(44:44):
Childhood stuff and mm-hmm.
You know, that whole rman rulethat they do, like, sure, I was
abused as a child and I havethis issue and that issue.
he was not as, his IQ was, hewas, I think it was an 86 or an
87 low.
But not in the range ofincompetence or, right.
(45:07):
Okay.
So, he had a lot of that goingon.
but instead of re-sentence,instead of re-sentencing him,
the parties agreed to a fixedlife term.
And I think this might have comefrom the reason that they
decided to take off the deathpenalty.
Eight, it's a hot, hot mess.
Mm-hmm.
(45:27):
But also, at this point, so muchlater, and we've seen this in
other, cases, they wouldliterally have to do a whole,
almost a whole trial trial.
To determine.
And so they're just like, let'snot, and money's a huge, all of
these cases that we've beendoing, like in, I don't hear
(45:49):
about it now as much, but thesecases in the eighties and
nineties, it was all about themoney that these counties were
spending.
Yeah.
And it was, they had to do taxlevies to pay for these damn
literal tax levies.
So you're gonna pay$50 more ayear in your taxes.
And now the whole county'spissed because we're, they're
(46:11):
legally obligated mm-hmm.
To defend
Stephanie (46:14):
and do a whole new trial,
Dani (46:15):
murder dogs, and this guy.
so I kind of get that, like, andI don't.
Stephanie (46:25):
And with the passage of time.
Mm-hmm.
I think, I think thatprosecution knows that since it
isn't fresh, that that mightbecome a factor with a jury
like, gosh, this was so longago.
They've already done all thistime.
Or maybe even they have troubleconnecting with the crime
because it feels, and people'sattitudes changed.
It feels like ancient history.
It's like.
(46:47):
Yeah.
I wasn't even born in that timeor, so It's hard's hard to
connect and
Dani (46:51):
people's attitude change about there's not as much heat
or not as much, you know?
Yeah.
They're not pissed off.
You're right.
They didn't
Stephanie (46:57):
see all the, you know, headlines and
Dani (47:01):
or know somebody who knew somebody or whatever.
Like it's Yes.
Theys a separation that happens.
Yeah.
So like, we're not gonna dothat.
Let's just agree not to killyou.
Mm-hmm.
And you're gonna be in prisonfor life.
When he was 19.
I know young.
That is so crazy.
We all know that.
That this is not developed yet.
(47:21):
No, no.
Their brain
Stephanie (47:22):
is not developed
Dani (47:23):
yet, but, and
Stephanie (47:23):
especially being on all the fucking drugs.
Mm-hmm.
Oh
Dani (47:26):
my God.
I did stupid shit when I was akid.
You never murdered anybody.
But I mean, I can look back andbe like.
Oh God.
God, your
Stephanie (47:35):
bravado and the confidence that you have in your
decisions, and you know, theease in which you make a
decision.
And, but not, okay.
No, you
Dani (47:45):
can't go.
Stephanie (47:46):
Not for the murdering, I mean no over.
He could've
Dani (47:49):
jacked his, you know, what he could've done?
Steal the car, steal, steal thecar.
He could've left him at theshooting range, took the murder
dog and his gun in the car, andtook.
Because I tail it
Stephanie (48:01):
out
Dani (48:01):
of there.
How many?
How many people?
Like I'm gonna go to targetpractice, but I gotta make sure
my wallet's in my No, yourwallet's in your car.
Your purse is in the car.
He probably could have justfucking left.
Yeah.
Said Hey, go set up thosebottles.
Boop B amounts.
Stephanie (48:18):
He's five miles outta town.
Yeah.
Go pick up your girl and boom,hightail it out of there.
And then figure it out once youcross the state lines.
'cause she's got a fuckingwarrant.
Dani (48:28):
Yeah.
Dumb
Stephanie (48:31):
again.
Why was this?
It's like they were just itchingfor it.
Such a strange, like they justwanted to do it just to do it to
be big time.
Dani (48:43):
No more penny anti.
So strange.
I wish I knew what happened tothe dog.
Stephanie (48:52):
Yeah.
Who got custody?
Custody of the dog,
Dani (48:55):
Annette.
And how?
It is her daughter.
His daughter.
They had a baby.
Yeah.
It's a lot.
Can you imagine?
my parents are both like,anyway, maybe Kathy, sister
Kathy, or sister Ada took careof the baby.
Anyway, yeah.
(49:17):
We're gonna jump, so 2009, we'regonna jump to 2018.
And there's of course stillappeals.
Appeals, appeals.
Mm-hmm.
small, I know, went in front ofPS and paroles trying to get
out.
but small did pay with her life.
Hmm.
(49:37):
small, passed away after anextended illness on March 29th,
2018, she was 64 and she hadParkinson's disease.
Stephanie (49:46):
Oh gosh.
Imagine being in jail withParkinson's.
I'm not excusing what they did,but that would suck.
Dani (49:54):
and I was trying to find like a lengthy obituary.
It was basically like a deathnotice.
Very tiny.
Okay.
But you know what was amazing tome, what there were so many
comments really from women whowere in prison with her.
(50:14):
Oh, and I'm not excusing herbehavior by any way, but I think
she was kind of like a mom or agrandma to a lot of these young
ladies.
She's like, there was likecomments, uh, that, uh, you, you
taught me you know how to bestrong and you gave me strength
(50:36):
and I didn't know I could haveit.
I'm just talking about playingcards and like yeah, she was a
afraid she was not goinganywhere and she was, had been
there for such a long time.
She was really kind of a rock toa lot of these women, young
women, positive women.
Impact women.
Yeah.
As much as she could, eventhough this shit was wrong.
(50:58):
so I just had to share that.
Stephanie (50:59):
That's good.
I'm glad that you shared that.
'cause we all know that jail isnot rehabilitative.
No.
There, there's nothing in therethat is going to automatically
make you a better person or fixyou.
It's oftentimes going to teachyou to use even more of those
negative skills that you mayhave had with manipulation or,
(51:20):
you know, mm-hmm.
And doing what you have to do tosurvive.
it's not a place that's going tojust make you better.
So knowing that at least she wasbeing good to those around her
wasn't like running a fuckinggang in there or something.
Right.
Or, you know, being a hellion.
So That's good to hear.
Dani (51:37):
Um, so yeah, I just thought I.
But, you know,'cause I did lookher up and I was like, oh wow.
I mean a lot.
I didn't even get through'emall.
Stephanie (51:45):
Wow.
Dani (51:45):
There was a lot of, and it was sometimes, like, the last
time I talked to you was in 88,the last time I talked to you
was in 96.
Oh.
Stephanie (51:53):
So very generational
Dani (51:55):
women going to prison and had met her.
Yeah.
And
Stephanie (51:58):
interacted.
Wow.
That is so interesting.
And
Dani (52:00):
she, she found God during, um, her From the night jailer
when she was originally, whileshe was pregnant.
and the night jailer introducedher to his wife.
Really?
And that when she got releasedduring that time when she was
(52:21):
pregnant
Stephanie (52:21):
mm-hmm.
Dani (52:22):
They actually took her in.
Stephanie (52:24):
Wow.
Dani (52:25):
Yeah.
And they, I didn't write any ofthis stuff down, so it's all
from memory, but.
They took her in and she foundGod.
She was a, she was a godlywoman.
and yeah,
Stephanie (52:38):
sounds like she
Dani (52:40):
was
Stephanie (52:40):
trying
Dani (52:40):
to
Stephanie (52:40):
do, I mean, she turned herself around.
It was too late.
It was too late.
But she was,
Dani (52:45):
she was thankful, for those pe She was so grateful.
I bet for those people that,'cause she had been a nomad and
just searching for something.
Her whole life.
Stephanie (52:58):
Yeah.
Like you said, she was lost.
Lost.
I not defending
Dani (52:59):
her by any means.
That's so wrong what happened toRobert.
But when you're in that kind ofa shitty situation where you're
sitting there and somebodyoffers you something that gives
you hope and makes you a betterperson, whatever it may be.
Mm-hmm.
Good.
Stephanie (53:16):
Yeah, it's good to hear that she made such a
positive impact and.
It didn't turn like Cree withthis fucking slicey dicey shit.
Right.
Dani (53:26):
It's, it's not like that.
Right.
So, so she's like, this is mylife.
I'm gonna take what I got.
I'm gonna try to do good withit.
Mm-hmm.
But still don't be killingpeople's to do
Stephanie (53:36):
in a situation like that
Dani (53:38):
And currently in 2025, McKinney is 63 and currently at
the Idaho State CorrectionalInstitution.
Stephanie (53:50):
Just chilling there.
I wonder if he had anyinteractions with other people
that we've
Dani (53:55):
Well, probably, yeah, but he was taken off death row in
Right, you're
Stephanie (54:01):
right.
Dani (54:01):
oh nine.
So,
Stephanie (54:05):
so he could have interacted with Creech though,
'cause he's been there forfucking Yeah.
Ever.
Dani (54:11):
Literally a lifetime.
Mm-hmm.
Um, anyway, I hope he enjoyedit.
Stephanie (54:17):
Interesting story for sure.
And just crazy when, you know,you try to put yourself in
someone's shoes of what someonewas thinking at the time.
And this was a wild one forthat.
I so many parties just beinglike.
Yeah, they're talking aboutkilling someone.
He is cleaning his gun saying heis going big time like no one
(54:39):
was.
Like, the vibes are a littleoff.
Like, are we okay?
Let's
Dani (54:42):
go get some beer and shoot some pool.
Yeah.
What did
Stephanie (54:44):
you mean
Dani (54:45):
by that?
Stephanie (54:46):
Where's the gun?
So I invited my friend to takeyou to the interstate like you
need and you wanna kill him.
Like, were you just, was that aweird joke?
No, no one was like
Dani (54:56):
laughing.
Huh?
What was that?
Yeah.
Stephanie (55:01):
But very, very strange for sure.
Dani (55:04):
I wanna thank everybody for listening.
Yes.
And please review and rate onwhen, wherever you're listening,
that helps us out a lot.
Yes.
We love
Stephanie (55:12):
to see review.
You can even leave like commentson Spotify and stuff.
Yeah.
Just what you thought of theepisode or questions you have.
Again, you can always email ustoo.
We've been getting more emailslately and we love them.
but.
The lethal library@gmail.com.
Shoot us an email if you havefurther questions.
But anything that you want to goover or have questions on, and
we're, we're happy to respondand we might do it on the pod or
(55:35):
we might just send you an emailhowever it goes.
But yeah, you guys have beenawesome We're getting so many
funny comments and interactionand we just, we love to see it.
So thank you
Dani (55:46):
and tell all of your murder mystery friends about us.
Word of mouth is the best.
Stephanie (55:51):
Yes, yes.
Thank you for doing all of that.
So anyway, that's what we've gotfor you today.
Uh, ten four rubber ducky.
Fuck yeah.
Alright, welcome back to another episode of the Lethal
Library.
I'm Stephanie.
I'm Danny, and we are here totell you another tale of true
crime that Danny's got preparedfor us.
quick shout out to listenersthat are coming back every week
and visiting our TikTok.
We love your comments.
We love your emails, so.
(00:51):
Keep them coming.
We love that you love the show.
Or even if you don't love theshow, you can tell us.
But thank you guys forlistening.
So Danny, what's in store for ustoday?
Dani (01:02):
Don't be the nice guy.
Uh oh.
For one Idaho man, being thenice guy, got him killed.
Do you really know yourfriend's?
Friends?
Today I am going to tell you thestory of Randy McKinney and Dey
Small two Lovers turnedmurderers.
No sources used in today'sepisode are the South Idaho
(01:24):
Press, the Bitch, the IdahoStatesman, love Her and The
Times News.
Okay, 1981.
I Randy McKinney, age 19 and hisgirlfriend Doy Small 27, arrived
in Milad, Idaho on April 6th,1981.
(01:46):
I just, I'm gonna have to, Ihave to tell you this.
I love her name.
Do small.
It's Debbie Dovey.
Stephanie (01:54):
Dovey.
Okay.
Thank you for clearing that up.
I thought it was Debbie.
It sounds like small, such a
Dani (02:00):
petite, like it belongs like, it's like almost a
Stephanie (02:03):
movie star name.
Like Yeah,
Dani (02:05):
that's what I'm saying.
Stephanie (02:06):
That's a very cute name.
Um, quite the age gap though.
Very confusing with her beingmuch older.
Dani (02:13):
So I guess I could just tell you a little bit, about Doy
Small.
I really didn't have this in thestory, Let me tell you, a little
bit about her background.
she was raised, uh, aroma.
She didn't even learn Englishuntil she was seven.
Stephanie (02:34):
Really?
And she was here the whole time.
Yeah.
Dani (02:35):
In West Virginia.
Her father died when she wasseven.
And some people say he wasmurdered.
this is sad.
She also lost her three-year-olddaughter in a car accident.
Stephanie (02:48):
Oh
Dani (02:49):
my God.
And it almost killed her aswell.
She the, she was driving from,so she's from West Virginia.
She was driving from WestVirginia to Omaha, and she went
over 150 foot cliff
Stephanie (03:05):
and she survived.
Yeah.
Dani (03:06):
Her, her pelvis had to be wired together and all of her
teeth were knocked out.
Stephanie (03:12):
Oh my God.
And her
Dani (03:13):
daughter died, so I mean, she barely made it.
I mean, it's a tragic, it's atragic thing.
And she also.
when she was 21, her fiance waskilled three weeks before their
wedding in 1976.
So she, she's been through it,she's been through it.
And after her daughter died,drugs and motorcycle games were
(03:35):
her
Stephanie (03:37):
these damn motorcycle games.
That was her
Dani (03:39):
out.
Yep.
so yes, there's an agedifference, but I just.
I, I think she was a lost soul
Stephanie (03:49):
searching for something.
Yeah.
Dani (03:50):
Yeah.
And so she found comfort in andthese people that would take
care of her and mm-hmm.
So she just, she was a vagabond,like just traveling and just
Yeah.
Fitting in in different places.
So.
Stephanie (04:06):
Okay.
Very interesting.
Dani (04:07):
two lines into the story, and I'm already telling you
about her anyway.
They ended up in Milad afterhitchhiking through several
states, and they checked into amotel for the night they were in
Milad to see small sister AdaMangum and Kathy Mangu before
they continued the travels toMontana.
(04:28):
Never could figure out why theywere heading to Montana, but
that was the end goal.
Stephanie (04:32):
Okay.
Dani (04:34):
Small sisters lived in Blackfoot, Idaho, about an hour
away.
I'm just looking at the map.
I think that they, they hitcheda ride from like Salt Lake City.
Oh my
Stephanie (04:43):
gosh.
Up
Dani (04:44):
through, well they originally met in Arizona,
McKinney and small.
They met in Arizona and theywere hitchhiking through up to,
Montana, but they wanted to stophere
Stephanie (04:56):
in Idaho.
How to see the sissies.
Dani (04:59):
Yes.
and Milad is.
About an hour away fromBlackfoot, but it's on the trail
from, if I, I looked at the mapand it's like, oh, they hitched
a ride like Salt Lake City area.
Right?
But small, didn't wanna stay inIdaho for long.
She had a felony warrant in thestate.
(05:22):
Dunno what it was for, but shehad a felony warrant.
She said,
Stephanie (05:25):
yeah, we gotta make it this a quick trip.
I just
Dani (05:26):
gotta stop and see my sissies.
And then we're out the nextmorning.
Ada and Kathy found a friend todrive them to Milad to pick up
McKinney and small and bringthem back to Blackfoot.
Stephanie (05:38):
Okay.
Dani (05:40):
When her sisters arrived in Milad to pick'em up from the
motel, small showed her sisterAda a handgun that was lying on
the table of their motel room.
McKinney stated, this is bigtime.
No more penny Andy.
Stephanie (05:59):
No more what?
Dani (06:00):
Penny Andy.
Is that a term I'm not familiarwith Auntie.
It's, uh, anti up poker.
Like, oh, okay.
No more penny aunties.
Like,
Stephanie (06:11):
we're doing the big stuff.
Dani (06:12):
Yeah.
Stephanie (06:13):
Ooh, okay.
Dani (06:15):
It's a, it was kind of a unique thing that he said, and I
was like, oh, but auntie is whatyou do.
Mm-hmm.
Stephanie (06:20):
Like up the ante.
Yeah.
And poker.
Okay.
Dani (06:24):
Later that evening.
Ada called her friend.
So they, they all went back toBlackfoot.
Stephanie (06:30):
Mm-hmm.
Dani (06:31):
Like sissies.
There was, you know,
Stephanie (06:34):
probably very excited for a reunion
Dani (06:37):
Ada called her friend Robert Bishop Jr.
To see if he would driveMcKinney and small to the
interstate the next day so theycould continue to hitchhike to
Montana because they were offthe interstate at that point.
Mm-hmm.
Right in the lab on the way yougot up, Blackfoot not on the
way.
Robert called back the nextmorning and said, yeah, I can do
that for you.
(06:57):
Sister Kathy watched as McKinneycleaned his gun while they were
waiting for Robert McKinneyagain stated he was going quote
big time and he was going toquote, blow him away.
Yeah.
Stephanie (07:13):
The person that's coming to get them.
Or does she maybe assume thatthey're robbing places or he
doesn't specifically
Dani (07:21):
say, it was Robert, but I just think he was talking a lot
of shit.
'cause he had a gun.
Stephanie (07:27):
It sounds like it.
Dani (07:29):
And he was 19.
Stephanie (07:30):
Yeah.
Dani (07:34):
Robert arrived a short time later and McKinney and
Small loaded their stuff intothe vehicle, the group.
So I just wanna make it clearwho's here.
It's Robert.
And McKinney and small, and bothof her sisters, ADA and Kathy
that got into the car, theydropped Kathy off at her house.
(07:57):
So now we're down to, RobertMcKinney Small and her sister
ate ADA They dropped Kathy ather house and proceeded to the
store to buy cigarettes, beer,and soda.
Sounds like a good time.
Stephanie (08:11):
Yeah.
Ready to go.
Dani (08:13):
It was decided that they would take the route through
Arco Idaho.
Towards Montana.
Stephanie (08:18):
Okay.
Dani (08:19):
They went this way because small needed to make a quick
stop in Arco
Stephanie (08:23):
For what?
Dani (08:24):
She said.
A woman, Jackie Willis.
Owed her money for a car.
Stephanie (08:29):
Damn it, Jackie.
Dani (08:31):
And they stopped at a couple of bars in Arco and drank
some more beer and played pool.
They grouped them packed up andwent to the home of Denise
Garner.
Lots of names, so it's okay.
Denise lived with Jackie Willis'son Casey.
So it was Jackie's son's,girlfriend's house.
(08:53):
Okay.
And small had known Casey as17-year-old convicted felon for
a while
Stephanie (09:05):
that's young, for being a felon
Dani (09:09):
and that he was not in jail.
Stephanie (09:10):
Right.
Dani (09:11):
small had helped Casey hide from the law a few times.
Stephanie (09:15):
So we're all good friends here?
Dani (09:17):
Yep.
We're besties.
Casey said he would show themwhere his mother Jackie lived.
Such a weird dynamic.
Stephanie (09:24):
I know.
Like,
Dani (09:25):
like, oh, you wanna know where my mom is?
She owes you money.
I'll take you there.
Yeah.
Y
Stephanie (09:30):
bring your gun.
Dani (09:32):
I don't know if she said that your mom owe the, owe the
money.
The, she might've said, take meto your mom.
I don't
Stephanie (09:36):
know.
Yeah.
We're all friends.
We're all
Dani (09:37):
friends here, right?
Mm-hmm.
Small and Ada rode with Casey inhis car, and Robert and McKinney
followed to go over to Jackie'shouse during the drive.
Small told Casey that she and McMcKinney had quote a piece, and
(09:59):
if Jackie's husband gave themany trouble, she would blow his
crap away.
Stephanie (10:04):
They are ready to blow someone away.
Dani (10:06):
That's kind of, they're
Stephanie (10:07):
almost like itching for it.
Dani (10:09):
Yeah.
And small earlier had pointedthe gun out of the window of the
car and shot at a, at a house.
Stephanie (10:16):
Oh, we're just casually doing drive-bys now
Dani (10:19):
just for shits and gigs and in these small towns.
Stephanie (10:23):
I'm surprised they didn't have a bunch of people
after'em.
Dani (10:27):
So they finally get to Jackie's McKinney took the gun
back from small because, quote,he didn't want her to do
something stupid.
Stephanie (10:36):
I feel like there's a propensity for stupidity from
both of these parties, but Sure.
Who, whoever's the responsibleone in the moment, who's the
least drunk?
Dani (10:47):
Uh, yeah.
In drugs, I'm sure.
Drugs.
Lot of drugs.
So it got heated at Jackie'shouse.
Hmm.
When Jackie refused to givesmall any money.
Stephanie (10:57):
Uh oh.
Dani (10:58):
Mm-hmm.
They left empty handed and wentback to Casey and Denise's
house.
On the drive back, small toldCasey that her and McKinney were
gonna kill Robert because he hada lot of money, credit cards,
and a nice car.
Stephanie (11:16):
Oh, so they're gonna take it out on poor Robert.
He had nothing to do with this.
Dani (11:20):
Exactly.
Stephanie (11:22):
You didn't have the balls to shoot someone who did
owe you money.
I'm not saying they should have,but you talked to all this game,
we don't get what we want.
And if you feel rightfully owed.
You couldn't do it there, butyou're just like
Dani (11:36):
the guy that gave you a ride.
Stephanie (11:38):
Yeah.
So strange.
Dani (11:41):
Back at Casey's house, Robert sat on the couch in the
living room and played aroundwith some of the kids that were
there,
Stephanie (11:47):
just entertaining the kids.
And Ada and Kathy, this is liketheir friend, right?
Dani (11:51):
It's ADA's friend.
Yeah.
Stephanie (11:53):
And you're just chill, like, oh, everybody's
Dani (11:56):
chill.
Stephanie (11:57):
Oh, bummer.
You're gonna, and he
Dani (11:58):
is just probably literally sitting on the, he.
He offered to give these guys aride.
Sure.
He's kind of now into it like,okay, I'll just hang out and
wait until you guys figure outwhen you wanna leave.
That's what I imagine happened.
Stephanie (12:09):
And there, like you said, there's some drugs
involved, so we're all justhaving a grand old time.
Yeah.
He
Dani (12:14):
was just chilling, partying.
McKinney and Small went into thekitchen.
Denise was in and outta thekitchen, but Casey stood nearby
and he overheard small tellMcKinney that they had to leave
the state.
Because she has a warrant.
Stephanie (12:31):
Yeah.
They gotta get outta there.
And
Dani (12:32):
she just had that altercation at Jackie's.
Stephanie (12:35):
They, and they're shooting at houses like,
whoopsie.
We did some drive-bys onaccident.
We might wanna leave
Dani (12:46):
McKinney said, well, let's go get the job done and get out
of here.
Stephanie (12:53):
Uh,
Dani (12:53):
this is not going well.
Stephanie (12:55):
No.
Dani (12:57):
Small said quote, Casey owes me one.
And then she had asked Casey ifhe would kill Robert.
Stephanie (13:05):
And now you can't even do it after talking all
this shit.
What's going on here?
Casey said, Nope.
He's like, uh, yeah, y'all, I, Iknow.
We like to get crazy.
I mean, I'm a felon.
We like to party, but you'rekidding.
This is escalating.
Why would I kill the, I mean,he's playing with the kids.
Dani (13:24):
Yeah.
McKinney said he would takeRobert out to the desert, shoot
him, and then burn the body, andsmall said quote.
That sounds like a good idea.
Stephanie (13:34):
Yeah, that that's a totally normal conversation
Dani (13:38):
in front of other pe.
Stephanie (13:40):
Very brash and.
We gotta do what we gotta do.
Lots of audacity is happeninghere.
Dani (13:47):
Let's just kill the guy that's giving us a ride to the
interstate.
So, yeah, burn his
Stephanie (13:51):
body in the desert.
We know how to do that.
Dani (13:54):
I do not know what's going on here, but for some reason,
sister Ada called the owner of alocal bar, the Antler Club, to
let them know they would be downin a few minutes.
Are they like specialcelebrities?
Stephanie (14:11):
Maybe they're very popular in this town.
They're like, ADA's coming.
Or maybe, maybe, I don't know,maybe like, I have
Dani (14:19):
never pre-call a bar and said, um, I'm coming.
Stephanie (14:22):
We'll be down soon.
Please make sure the paparazziisn't there.
Thank you.
What is happening?
I don't,
Dani (14:27):
I don't get it.
Don't need
Stephanie (14:29):
make it drugs.
Maybe they're like, have ourcocaine ready.
I don't know.
Dani (14:35):
Casey and Denise stayed home wisely.
Stay home with those kids.
Yeah, so yeah, do not goRobert's down.
He drove the rest of the groupdown to the bar and somebody on
the drive suggested they goTarget shooting with McKinney's
gun.
Stephanie (14:55):
Obviously as you do, it sounds like this is probably
evening time as well, like.
Let's go shoot some guns.
Maybe even we've had enough ofthe drive-bys.
Let's go.
Target shooting.
Dani (15:09):
Robert and McKinney left after they dropped small and
Sister A off at the bar.
Stephanie (15:15):
Hmm.
Dani (15:16):
We're gonna go shoot some guns on the desert.
We'll be back.
Ladies, go have a drink.
Stephanie (15:21):
There will be gunshot.
I feel
Dani (15:24):
15 minutes later, McKinney came back and said, quote, let's
go.
That was quick.
It was very quick.
The women saw Robert's car, buthe wasn't around.
When they asked about RobertMcKinney said he had quote, shot
him once in the stomach and fivetimes in the head
Stephanie (15:46):
Excessive.
And also, I mean, so who all'sat the bar?
So it's, it's small.
And her sister Ada.
You're saying this in front ofAda, like, did you not like this
dude very much?
Was this just some guy that wasobsessed with you or something,
or And Ada was the one thatcalled him?
Yeah,
Dani (16:06):
ADA called and was like.
Hey y'all.
Why didn't
Stephanie (16:08):
they feel the need to lie and be like, oh, he wasn't
feeling good, but said we couldstill use his car.
No,
Dani (16:13):
it was just McKinney and Robert.
Yeah.
That went out to go shoot thegun.
So there was four people in thecar.
McKinney went with Robert to goshoot his gun
Stephanie (16:24):
target practice.
All, all very weird.
Dani (16:29):
It is weird.
It's I drug fueled, I imagine.
Mm-hmm.
Small, and Ada said that theydidn't believe him.
They're like, you didn't.
You didn't shoot him.
So McKinney says, Hmm, I'll showyou
Stephanie (16:46):
weird.
Now we're going on a field trip.
Dani (16:48):
Field trip.
The group drove Robert's car toan old gravel pit just outside
of town where they saw Robertlying on the ground.
Ada lost it and becamehysterical, she said.
You take me back to Blackfoot.
I am done with this shit.
Like she was over
Stephanie (17:08):
it.
So what did you think of all theprevious conversation?
I mean, I don't know how you canbe like, oh, we're just joking
around.
We have tons of friends from alldifferent backgrounds and no
one's like, ha, you know what?
Danny said something to me.
I'm gonna take her to a gravelpit and shoot her brains out.
And everyone's like, oh, Steph,this joker.
(17:31):
Steph.
She's so fucking funny.
She's cleaning her gun now.
She says she's gonna blow herass away.
Oh, now they're going on a fieldtrip.
What?
Mm-hmm.
Like, I mean, I'm glad thatsomeone was like, what the fuck?
But Ada,
Dani (17:46):
what did you think
Stephanie (17:47):
was gonna happen?
Dani (17:47):
What?
Okay.
Small said quote, you didn'thave to shoot him.
And McKinney replied.
Quote, he had proved his love ofhis woman.
Stephanie (18:04):
Okay.
Yeah.
Y'all are high as fuck becausefor one, uh, Ms.
Smalls, you knew about this.
And two, how is that provingyour love?
I mean, we gotta do what wegotta do right now.
We're big time.
I told you I was doing the bigtime.
Big time.
(18:25):
I'm a certified gangster.
Dani (18:28):
So they dropped hysterical sister Ada off at her house in
Blackfoot and headed back overto Sister Kathy's house Small,
had told her that McKinney hadshot Robert.
She's like, SIS, my guy herekilled Robert.
You know, the nice guy playingwith the kids and giving us a
(18:49):
ride dead.
Stephanie (18:52):
Not quote, but how did Kathy react?
Dani (18:54):
Well, Kathy then asked.
Kathy then asked for Robert'sleather jacket and Small gave it
to her, and I just want, thiswas in the context of a memento,
a keepsake for him.
That's how she was asking forthis stuff.
So small, gave it to her, butthen Kathy also asked for his
(19:18):
wallet,
Stephanie (19:19):
but they wanted the wallet
Dani (19:22):
and they said, no, you cannot have that for a keepsake.
Thank you.
Stephanie (19:25):
We actually wanted that for our keepsake.
Mm-hmm.
For a memento.
I'm floored.
Dani (19:33):
I'm just saying if I found out somebody was shot, I
wouldn't be like, and that mysister's boyfriend shot them.
I'd be like, can I have a sleather jacket?
I love.
It's such a nice step.
I'd be like, get the fuck outtamy house.
Well, and why did he, and I'mcalling the cops after you
leave.
Stephanie (19:50):
Ugh.
Like, and just that they alsohad the audacity to tell Kathy
after Ada responded so badly,oh.
Like, oh, ADA's having a heartattack.
Let's tell Kathy too.
I'd be like, uh, we got kind ofa bad reaction on that one.
We, we didn't read the roomapparently, so maybe we just
don't tell Kathy and we justsay, you know, he let us use his
(20:13):
car or What the hell
Dani (20:15):
So after the wallet denial, McKinney and small drove
to Pocatello and used Robert'scredit card to buy gas.
Stephanie (20:24):
Now they got them cards.
They were wanting so bad,
Dani (20:28):
they called ADA and said they were coming back to
Blackfoot to get Small's dog.
Stephanie (20:34):
And you forgot the dog.
They are fucked up.
Dani (20:38):
Yeah.
Oh shit.
I forgot the dog.
And all this murder business andhysterical sisters and stealing
credit cards and buying gas.
If you're
Stephanie (20:47):
shooting up houses and shooting people, forgot the
dogs.
You might just, if you forgotthe dog, you might wanna cut
your loss.
At that point, I'd be a littleparanoid.
Dani (20:54):
I'm gonna tell you, basically this whole scenario
was the dog's fault.
Stephanie (21:00):
Oh, e,
Dani (21:01):
everything.
The dog was the murderer.
Stephanie (21:06):
That dog, you know, it was holding the, the gun.
Um, with his disposable thumbs,you should have seen them.
You can train the dog duty justabout anything these days.
Very talented.
Dani (21:20):
So Ada told her husband and his friends about the
shooting and the police hadalready been called, somebody
had already called the police.
So by the time these yahoos werefucking driving back to get her
dog, the cops already knew, likenobody's keeping quiet'cause
somebody was rational.
(21:40):
Somebody said, ow.
Oh, we don't be shooting people
Stephanie (21:44):
in a gravel pit.
Like and telling, why did theyeven tell anyone?
Like just say that he said, Igotta go home.
I'm sick, but use my car.
People wouldn't have found outfor days maybe.
Who knows?
But you have to tell this fair.
I shot somebody,
Dani (22:01):
I shot somebody, I shot somebody.
I shot somebody.
He's dead.
He's dead.
That's what they did.
Stephanie (22:07):
And then they're telling other people immediately
like, yeah,
Dani (22:11):
well Ada was fucking hyster.
She was,
Stephanie (22:14):
that's what's confusing is she sounded like
she was very down.
Why ended up in that
Dani (22:17):
situation, which I, I hoped I would never be in a
situation where somebody told methey shot somebody.
I would very calm.
Stephanie (22:25):
Yes.
Dani (22:26):
Oh, take me home.
Lock my fucking doors.
Tell my husband and call the co.
I would be telling my husband.
The same time I was telling thepolice.
Stephanie (22:38):
Yeah, absolutely not.
Dani (22:39):
No.
I'd be like, okay, I'm nothysterical.
I'm
Stephanie (22:42):
calm.
Oh, cool.
You're, you're big time,
Dani (22:46):
big
Stephanie (22:46):
time.
No, no.
Penny auntie here.
Wow.
Very cool.
Cool story, bro.
Dani (22:53):
I'm hungry anyway.
I
Stephanie (22:54):
I do need to get home though.
Uh, thank you.
So, got dinner to cook
Dani (22:59):
or?
Stephanie (22:59):
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
You gonna wash my hair?
Yeah.
Bye.
Dani (23:04):
So anyways, ADA had
Stephanie (23:07):
blabbed
Dani (23:07):
blabbed and they, everybody was calling the cops
like, Hey.
So they were waiting for them topick up the murder dog.
Um, so McKinney and Small werestopped by a police officer
outside of ADA's house'causethey were waiting for them.
(23:28):
This, this astounded me.
McKinney got out of the car andwalked straight for the police
officer.
Stephanie (23:38):
Ugh.
Dani (23:40):
It's a small town.
Very small.
I don't know.
I didn't look.
I should have looked it up.
Stephanie (23:45):
Well, lad's, very tiny and especially, this is in
the eighties.
Oh, this is an Arco.
Dani (23:49):
Oh, okay.
Wait, maybe they're inBlackfoot.
Blackfoot still.
They're foot black one, stilltiny, whatever.
They're all little.
so we got outta the car andwalked straight for the officer,
and I think that this just tookthe cop back.
Like, he's like, whoa, whoa,whoa.
This isn't how this is supposedto go.
Yeah.
And so the officer returned tohis patrol car probably calling
(24:09):
for backup.
Yeah.
Like, he's like, um, this, um,he walking up to me.
He's not running, not scared,he's being aggressive.
So when the officer returned tohis patrol car, McKinney just
walked into Sister ADA's house.
Stephanie (24:24):
Nothing to see here.
Just getting the dog.
They can't murder dog.
They can't pull me over.
They can't stop me.
Dani (24:29):
Small had taken off too.
She was later found hiding.
And Sister ADA's bathroom.
You're not getting away.
No,
Stephanie (24:41):
they're already
Dani (24:42):
there.
So, uh, we did take a break.
Stephanie (24:47):
We did.
We made an oopsie.
So if you've noticed adifference in the sound,
Dani (24:54):
we left the fan on.
Sorry
Stephanie (24:56):
about that.
Um, because it'd be hot
Dani (24:57):
in here,
Stephanie (24:58):
it does get hot in here.
But if you notice a change, weare, sorry.
We're sorry.
We don't really wanna rerecordit though, so please forgive us
if there is a weird soundquality for the first 25 minutes
or so.
Our cheapest apologies.
We are not revenge at all.
Dani (25:16):
And we didn't even
Stephanie (25:16):
realize it.
No, I cannot believe it.
We did not realize it the wholetime we're so I just looked at
it and was like.
Oh, damn it.
So anyway, we're back.
Hopefully the sound is good foryou.
Love you guys so much.
Thanks for, bearing throughthat.
Dani (25:37):
All right.
so when McKinney's in the house,he asked sister Ada what she had
told the police and ADA'shusband yelled.
Quote, what the hell do youthink she said?
She told the truth
Stephanie (25:54):
and now you're coming over here to get your dog like
the murder dog.
You should have just kept onyour merry little way.
Dani (26:01):
McKinney responded, quote, well, looks like I'm going for
murder.
Stephanie (26:08):
I can't believe the cops let him walk in there
knowing that they were the.
What if he wanted to do a bigtime and now,'cause he knows he
is going and all the drugsinvolved, he's like, well, pop,
pop, pop.
Dani (26:21):
I think maybe this is what I'm envisioning, like I've, in
my head, like the, the policeofficer that was sent there was
not expecting that reaction.
No.
And so then can you imaginepulling up on somebody being
like, I'm gonna get you.
(26:42):
Come talk to me and they'relike, I don't give a fuck what
you're wearing.
I don't give a fuck what badgeyou are.
And just
Stephanie (26:49):
boom, boom,
Dani (26:50):
and just, yeah, charging at you.
Basically, he charged at him andhe is like, whoa, whoa, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Holy shit.
I, Becca, I would've got back inmy car too.
I'm surprised they didn'talready
Stephanie (27:04):
have backup I would've been
Dani (27:05):
expecting over.
Stephanie (27:06):
Well, it's a big police chase.
Dani (27:09):
But also maybe they were thinking, oh, it's rumors.
'cause they hadn't found a bodyyet.
So they're like, all right.
Somebody called and said theyshot somebody and we're just
gonna go check it out.
But I don't know, I just thinkvery strange.
It was a small time.
Mm-hmm.
Small time.
City, town, like very tiny.
Stephanie (27:31):
Yeah.
Dani (27:31):
So.
I don't, think that they wereexpecting that reaction,
reaction from McKinney and theyweren't prepared for it.
No.
Clearly, clearly, big timepolice came into the house and
Ada again told the police thatMcKinney had shot Robert, and
(27:52):
I'm imagining a lot of screamingand.
Freaking out.
Stephanie (27:56):
Well,'cause I'd be like, why did you let him walk
in here?
Why is
Dani (27:58):
he here?
I just told you like we toldyou, and then you just let him
walk into our house.
Like I'd be scared if I was Ada.
Same.
But once the police were in thehouse,'cause he said, you know
Yeah.
McKinney said, yeah, I'mcatching a murder charge.
Right.
But once the police were in thehouse, he was like, quote, I
didn't kill anybody.
Stephanie (28:21):
Now we're finally trying some self preservation
here.
Okay?
Sure, bro.
It was
Dani (28:27):
the dog.
McKinney was placed in custody.
They searched Robert's car andfound a 22 caliber handgun and a
purse.
We know it was Small's purse.
Mm-hmm.
And Robert's wallet small andAda showed the police where
Robert's body was.
Stephanie (28:48):
But he didn't kill anybody.
How did he know?
Right.
Robert was only 25.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
And was just trying to be, hethought he was a member of the
gang, like our little party.
Oh, you need me to help you out,friends, I got you.
Yeah.
Playing with the kids, drivingyou around.
Probably had a
Dani (29:07):
good job.
I, I did try to find at least anobit and I couldn't, so I, my
apologies.
I wish I knew more about him.
But he was from Pocatello.
That's it.
And he was 25.
And I hate that'cause I reallydo.
Mm-hmm.
Wanna know a little bit moreabout him.
But, I just think he was a goodguy.
He probably had a decent job andhad had enough money to have a
(29:29):
car
Stephanie (29:30):
and he was like the richer friend in the group or
something.
Yeah.
And thought that he was friendswith everyone but.
People were talking aboutkilling him hours before his
murder, and
Dani (29:41):
he's just hanging out.
He is like, yeah, I'll give yourfriends a ride.
I'll give what I'll give sister.
What a shame.
It's bullshit.
And I bet you Ada, Phil's somuch guilt.
Mm-hmm.
I don't think that was herintention at all.
But also, did you not pick up onthe.
The clues that was being th bigdump and blah, blah, blah.
(30:02):
But yeah, I'm
Stephanie (30:02):
gonna shoot him.
I'm gonna, we're gonna take acard.
And she, she should
Dani (30:06):
have been
Stephanie (30:06):
like,
Dani (30:07):
what the fuck?
Stephanie (30:08):
Yeah.
Dani (30:08):
What are you saying?
Stephanie (30:10):
Anyway, psychos
Dani (30:13):
McKinney was interviewed by the police later that night.
He said he wasn't an Arco, buteventually.
He started to cry and said heaccidentally shot Robert while
they were target shooting.
You took them to the body?
she did.
Stephanie (30:30):
Oh, okay.
Dani (30:31):
Small did and Ada sister.
Ada did.
So he is like, I wasn't, Iwasn't even in Arco.
Yeah.
Okay.
Hold on.
But then he broke down, startedto cry.
It was an accident.
He blamed.
The fucking dog.
How he said the little dog wasnipping at his heels, but he
(30:59):
couldn't remember anything afterthat.
But going back to the bar to getthe girls and then showing them
the body,
Stephanie (31:09):
none of that makes logical sense.
Murder dog.
If you didn't remember killingsomeone, how do you remember to
take them back and show themwhere the body is?
Dani (31:17):
McKinney was charged with first degree murder, robbery,
conspiracy to commit, murder andconspiracy to commit robbery so
much,
Stephanie (31:29):
no shit.
Dani (31:30):
Small was not charged, but she's being held as a material
witness.
Stephanie (31:35):
Okay.
Dani (31:36):
She was finally interviewed and an exchange she
will be released.
The deposition was in front ofMcKinney and his attorney
cross-examined her.
Stephanie (31:49):
That'd be intimidating.
Very.
Yeah.
Dani (31:55):
In September, small is charged with first degree
murder.
Eating and abetting conspiracyto commit murder and conspiracy
to commit.
Commit robbery.
She was also pregnant withMcKinney's child and she was
released on September 17th.
So part of the reason that shewas released was a big pregnant.
(32:21):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, they really don't, in these small town, they don't
have the facility.
No.
For.
Stephanie (32:28):
A lot of people at all.
Right.
Dani (32:29):
Uh, let alone a pregnant woman who needs to go to a
doctor.
Mm-hmm.
And all that kind of stuff.
but also part of the thing waslike, you gotta give us,'cause
she's being held like Samara,remember back in Yes.
We're just gonna hold you andtell you, tell us something.
And so she's like, fine, I willtell you something.
So they did do that, and thatwas a condition of her being
(32:50):
released.
Not Samira.
She was 10 toes down.
Oh.
She's like, I'm here forever.
Yeah, I'll stay in here OnNovember 2nd, 1981, McKinney's
trial begins.
I just wanna say I'm stillamazed how fast they push these
trials through.
Stephanie (33:08):
Yeah, there are ready to go.
Dani (33:11):
A firearms expert, Richard Craven, testified that the
weight of the trigger pull.
Of the 22 caliber gun was one ofthe heaviest he'd ever
encountered.
Stephanie (33:23):
So you have to be really trying to shoot this gun,
especially, I think it was sixtimes, five times in the head,
one time in the stomach.
Mm-hmm.
Dani (33:30):
Well, that was what you're gonna hear a little bit more
about from a pathologist, butthe gun was passed to the jury
so they could test itthemselves, which blew my mind.
Sitting in a jury box goingclick, that's a little click,
strange click they did.
small.
Was unable to testify at thetrial'cause of the marriage or
(33:53):
They were not married.
Oh, she was in the hospital dueto complications of her
pregnancy.
Oh.
But parts of her deposition wereused reused.
She literally gave birth duringthis trial.
Oh my gosh.
Mm-hmm.
a pathologist testified Robertwas shot once in the chest and
(34:16):
four times in the head at closerange.
Based on the amount of bloodfound in Robert's lungs, it was
determined that the shots in thehead occurred.
This is important, five to 10minutes, up to one to two hours
after the chest shot.
Stephanie (34:36):
Oh, but he was back in 15 minutes.
Dani (34:40):
Just keep that in your pocket.
Stephanie (34:41):
Okay.
Dani (34:43):
Bullet fragments found during the autopsy were
consistent with the ones firedfrom the gun found in Robert's
car.
McKinney testified at his owntrial.
Oof.
He said he accidentally shotRobert because Small's murder
dog.
(35:04):
Was nipping at his pant legwhile Robert was setting up the
bottles for target practice.
Stephanie (35:10):
Why would you be like pointing this gun?
This dog is biting my ankle.
Ah.
Five shots.
What?
You gotta think of somethingbetter than that.
Say he attacked you orsomething.
Say he came onto you.
Murder dog.
(35:31):
The dog was biting my heels, soI had to shoot my acquaintance.
Dani (35:37):
I don't know if, if I've ever been target practice,
nobody is pointing a gun at thetargets while somebody is
setting up Said targets.
Yeah.
That's not how that works, butdude, don't shoot me.
I'm just gonna go set up thesebottles.
How about nobody points thefucking gun up.
Yeah.
And ready?
That's.
Anyway.
What the fuck?
It's a stretch, sir.
(35:59):
It's a stretch.
More
Stephanie (36:00):
than a stretch.
I don't even know what to callthat.
Like I was aiming at the bottlesthat my friend was placing,
pointing a gun at him, and I'dbe like, put the fucking gun
down, bro.
Yeah.
What the fuck?
Anyone would be like, uh, excuseme.
Dani (36:13):
Why are you pointing the gun while I'm setting up?
We're not ready.
Yeah, not ready.
Murder dog.
Fuck Jesus.
When Robert fell to the groundafter being shot, and, and this
is McKinney's testimony, right?
Mm-hmm.
So when Robert fell to theground after being shot, he went
(36:33):
to town and grabbed the ladies.
Stephanie (36:37):
Yeah.
Dani (36:38):
And like remember, like, mm-hmm.
I shut them, blah, blah, blah.
They returned to the scene ofthe crime and small for some
reason, just grabbed the gun andshe went up and shot Robert in
the head several times.
Hmm Hmm.
McKinney also denied anypre-planned murder slash robbery
(37:02):
except for their big time.
No more Penny auntie.
Stephanie (37:06):
Telling people that you're literally gonna kill this
dude to take his credit cards.
Yeah, sure.
Oh, except
Dani (37:11):
for that there's no pre-planned nothing.
Stephanie (37:14):
It was the
Dani (37:15):
fucking dog.
Stephanie (37:16):
Yeah.
If that damn dog wouldn't havebit me, I wouldn't have shot my
friend.
Dani (37:21):
Mm.
On November 12th, after threehours of deliberation, the jury
came back guilty on all charges.
Stephanie (37:29):
Easy peasy.
Apparently.
Dani (37:31):
Yeah.
Stephanie (37:32):
To like, can the dog get
Dani (37:34):
convicted?
That's 10
Stephanie (37:36):
days after the trial starts.
Dani (37:38):
Yeah.
No, and this, it happened inJune.
Yeah.
In June.
That's not how Kohlberg'sfucking, what we two and a half
years in?
Stephanie (37:51):
Yeah.
Dani (37:51):
Fuck that guy.
Did you see the selfie?
Stephanie (37:55):
Yeah.
What a fucking creep.
Dani (37:57):
Uh, who buttons the top
Stephanie (37:58):
button?
Trench coat button to the top
Dani (38:03):
fucking weirdo.
Okay.
In February of 1982, smallstrial begins.
McKinney refuses to testify andpleads the fifth.
Mm.
There's a, he hasn't.
I mean, he was found guilty, buthe hasn't been sentenced.
It's also his baby mama.
(38:25):
Mm-hmm.
Even though he said what?
She actually killed him'causeshe just took the gun and
fucking shot him in the hood.
On March 4th, after two hours ofdeliberation, the jury found
small guilty of first degreemurder conspiracy to commit
murder, robbery, and conspiracyto commit robbery.
(38:47):
I don't understand all thesecharges.
Stephanie (38:50):
Anyway, they're just trying to get whatever they can,
I think,
Dani (38:52):
and Idaho does.
Mm-hmm.
Stephanie (38:54):
Like we're gonna just slam you just in case they
can't, you know, there's appealson one thing and it's just
Dani (38:58):
a case.
'cause it's coming.
After the sentencing hearing onMarch 27th, McKinney was
sentenced to death.
Ooh.
He was also sentenced to fixlife for robbery, plus a
consecutive 15 years for afirearms enhancement, an
indeterminate 30 years forconspiracy to commit murder, and
(39:19):
an indeterminate 30 years forconspiracy to commit robbery.
Stephanie (39:24):
Wow, we, wow.
No, they're like fucking done.
Because you think about that,you mean what if you conspire to
commit a murder or a robbery andyou never do it 30 years for
each?
Don't you plan a murder ski?
It's just a bit, I'm not sayingit's wrong because I mean Jesus,
(39:45):
but whoa.
Dani (39:47):
Yeah.
Yikes.
Those big time and Penny anticomments came back to, yeah,
they came up to show'em.
Yeah.
You want big time?
Stephanie (39:55):
Here's your big time.
Here's your big time, bro.
You
Dani (39:58):
are big time.
On June 18th, Debbie Small wassentenced to two life sentences.
Yikes.
I still don't understand how youcan get two life sentences when
only one person died, but that'snot, I don't.
Maybe with more practice.
(40:18):
I will understand.
The defense says it's excessivebecause she wasn't there.
She didn't actually do themurder, and the prosecution said
it's not enough because the guythat sh shot her got death, like
(40:39):
had the death penalty.
Mm.
Both of the, both the prosecution and the defense
appeal.
The conviction,
Stephanie (40:49):
they're like, oh, that's too little for you, or
That's too much for us.
It's too much for us.
The prosecution
Dani (40:54):
wanted her to have the death penalty.
Stephanie (40:56):
Oh, she would've been the first, they were going hard.
Yeah.
Dani (40:59):
She would've been the first woman up for the death
penalty.
And as we know, Carla WinDor wasit.
Mm-hmm.
But she, they wanted her,
Stephanie (41:08):
she was gonna be the first one.
Dani (41:11):
Mm-hmm.
So here we are.
Pills, appeal pills.
and so that was, geez, 82.
Okay.
Stephanie (41:21):
Okay.
Dani (41:22):
In 89, McKinney did have an execution date set, but of
course it was stayed.
Mm-hmm.
And there's so many appeal.
I'm just gonna highlight acouple, in 1993.
McKinney files an affidavitstating that small was innocent
(41:42):
and he killed Robert alone.
Stephanie (41:45):
Okay.
Real convenient for you to saythat now.
Dani (41:48):
Like it's like 12 years later or something like
Stephanie (41:50):
Yeah.
Damage is done.
Yeah.
If that's the truth.
Dani (41:55):
Well, I do think that he killed him alone.
Mm-hmm.
But he was just trying.
Because there was testimony thatRobert could have survived the
gunshot wound.
Stephanie (42:10):
So what if they come back and he's like,
Dani (42:12):
and then small popped him in the head.
Mm-hmm.
Four times.
That's what actually killed him.
but now he's feeling like anasshole because he actually shot
him five times for blaming thislady.
So.
Hmm.
in 1999, Joan Fisher comes onthe scene.
(42:37):
Joan Fisher has been in previouspodcasts.
Yep.
She's represented BrianLangford.
Paul Rhodes.
We have not done on my list,David Card, not on my list, but,
and Timothy Dunlap, which wedid.
Mm, yes.
Because she is a badass.
(42:57):
Attorney like she gets, this isher
Stephanie (42:59):
wheelhouse.
Dani (42:59):
She gets people off death row So Joan Fisher is trying to
get McKinney off death row.
She wants the conviction voided.
And she told the Idaho SupremeCourt that McKinney's trial
attorney was denied keyprosecution information and that
he did not get effective legalrepresentation.
It's a good route to drive.
(43:21):
I, so in my research there was,prosecution notes.
Mm-hmm.
And one of, remember how hard itwas for them to pull the gun?
One of the notes said Tightenthe barrel.
Oh, inside thoughts, sir?
Yeah.
(43:43):
Interesting.
Remember how that that firearmsexpert was like very impactful.
This is the toughest triggerI've ever.
So if a
Stephanie (43:52):
dog did bite you, you would, you would still have to
be.
I'm trying
Dani (43:59):
their whole thing.
I didn't say that.
Their whole thing was, theydidn't think that small could
have up pulled that trigger.
She was a tiny woman.
That was kind of their
Stephanie (44:13):
thing that they were.
I hear that, but I can't imaginea trigger too hard to pull even
if you've tightened it, like ifyou wanna pull it,
Dani (44:22):
but that's what they were saying.
No, I, it's frail woman.
Camp and I'm like, uh, In 2009,the court ruled that McKinney
was entitled to be re-sentenceddue to the ineffective counsel
at his capital sentence hearing.
and this was all based on notbringing up.
(44:44):
Childhood stuff and mm-hmm.
You know, that whole rman rulethat they do, like, sure, I was
abused as a child and I havethis issue and that issue.
he was not as, his IQ was, hewas, I think it was an 86 or an
87 low.
But not in the range ofincompetence or, right.
(45:07):
Okay.
So, he had a lot of that goingon.
but instead of re-sentence,instead of re-sentencing him,
the parties agreed to a fixedlife term.
And I think this might have comefrom the reason that they
decided to take off the deathpenalty.
Eight, it's a hot, hot mess.
Mm-hmm.
(45:27):
But also, at this point, so muchlater, and we've seen this in
other, cases, they wouldliterally have to do a whole,
almost a whole trial trial.
To determine.
And so they're just like, let'snot, and money's a huge, all of
these cases that we've beendoing, like in, I don't hear
(45:49):
about it now as much, but thesecases in the eighties and
nineties, it was all about themoney that these counties were
spending.
Yeah.
And it was, they had to do taxlevies to pay for these damn
literal tax levies.
So you're gonna pay$50 more ayear in your taxes.
And now the whole county'spissed because we're, they're
(46:11):
legally obligated mm-hmm.
To defend
Stephanie (46:14):
and do a whole new trial,
Dani (46:15):
murder dogs, and this guy.
so I kind of get that, like, andI don't.
Stephanie (46:25):
And with the passage of time.
Mm-hmm.
I think, I think thatprosecution knows that since it
isn't fresh, that that mightbecome a factor with a jury
like, gosh, this was so longago.
They've already done all thistime.
Or maybe even they have troubleconnecting with the crime
because it feels, and people'sattitudes changed.
It feels like ancient history.
It's like.
(46:47):
Yeah.
I wasn't even born in that timeor, so It's hard's hard to
connect and
Dani (46:51):
people's attitude change about there's not as much heat
or not as much, you know?
Yeah.
They're not pissed off.
You're right.
They didn't
Stephanie (46:57):
see all the, you know, headlines and
Dani (47:01):
or know somebody who knew somebody or whatever.
Like it's Yes.
Theys a separation that happens.
Yeah.
So like, we're not gonna dothat.
Let's just agree not to killyou.
Mm-hmm.
And you're gonna be in prisonfor life.
When he was 19.
I know young.
That is so crazy.
We all know that.
That this is not developed yet.
(47:21):
No, no.
Their brain
Stephanie (47:22):
is not developed
Dani (47:23):
yet, but, and
Stephanie (47:23):
especially being on all the fucking drugs.
Mm-hmm.
Oh
Dani (47:26):
my God.
I did stupid shit when I was akid.
You never murdered anybody.
But I mean, I can look back andbe like.
Oh God.
God, your
Stephanie (47:35):
bravado and the confidence that you have in your
decisions, and you know, theease in which you make a
decision.
And, but not, okay.
No, you
Dani (47:45):
can't go.
Stephanie (47:46):
Not for the murdering, I mean no over.
He could've
Dani (47:49):
jacked his, you know, what he could've done?
Steal the car, steal, steal thecar.
He could've left him at theshooting range, took the murder
dog and his gun in the car, andtook.
Because I tail it
Stephanie (48:01):
out
Dani (48:01):
of there.
How many?
How many people?
Like I'm gonna go to targetpractice, but I gotta make sure
my wallet's in my No, yourwallet's in your car.
Your purse is in the car.
He probably could have justfucking left.
Yeah.
Said Hey, go set up thosebottles.
Boop B amounts.
Stephanie (48:18):
He's five miles outta town.
Yeah.
Go pick up your girl and boom,hightail it out of there.
And then figure it out once youcross the state lines.
'cause she's got a fuckingwarrant.
Dani (48:28):
Yeah.
Dumb
Stephanie (48:31):
again.
Why was this?
It's like they were just itchingfor it.
Such a strange, like they justwanted to do it just to do it to
be big time.
Dani (48:43):
No more penny anti.
So strange.
I wish I knew what happened tothe dog.
Stephanie (48:52):
Yeah.
Who got custody?
Custody of the dog,
Dani (48:55):
Annette.
And how?
It is her daughter.
His daughter.
They had a baby.
Yeah.
It's a lot.
Can you imagine?
my parents are both like,anyway, maybe Kathy, sister
Kathy, or sister Ada took careof the baby.
Anyway, yeah.
(49:17):
We're gonna jump, so 2009, we'regonna jump to 2018.
And there's of course stillappeals.
Appeals, appeals.
Mm-hmm.
small, I know, went in front ofPS and paroles trying to get
out.
but small did pay with her life.
Hmm.
(49:37):
small, passed away after anextended illness on March 29th,
2018, she was 64 and she hadParkinson's disease.
Stephanie (49:46):
Oh gosh.
Imagine being in jail withParkinson's.
I'm not excusing what they did,but that would suck.
Dani (49:54):
and I was trying to find like a lengthy obituary.
It was basically like a deathnotice.
Very tiny.
Okay.
But you know what was amazing tome, what there were so many
comments really from women whowere in prison with her.
(50:14):
Oh, and I'm not excusing herbehavior by any way, but I think
she was kind of like a mom or agrandma to a lot of these young
ladies.
She's like, there was likecomments, uh, that, uh, you, you
taught me you know how to bestrong and you gave me strength
(50:36):
and I didn't know I could haveit.
I'm just talking about playingcards and like yeah, she was a
afraid she was not goinganywhere and she was, had been
there for such a long time.
She was really kind of a rock toa lot of these women, young
women, positive women.
Impact women.
Yeah.
As much as she could, eventhough this shit was wrong.
(50:58):
so I just had to share that.
Stephanie (50:59):
That's good.
I'm glad that you shared that.
'cause we all know that jail isnot rehabilitative.
No.
There, there's nothing in therethat is going to automatically
make you a better person or fixyou.
It's oftentimes going to teachyou to use even more of those
negative skills that you mayhave had with manipulation or,
(51:20):
you know, mm-hmm.
And doing what you have to do tosurvive.
it's not a place that's going tojust make you better.
So knowing that at least she wasbeing good to those around her
wasn't like running a fuckinggang in there or something.
Right.
Or, you know, being a hellion.
So That's good to hear.
Dani (51:37):
Um, so yeah, I just thought I.
But, you know,'cause I did lookher up and I was like, oh wow.
I mean a lot.
I didn't even get through'emall.
Stephanie (51:45):
Wow.
Dani (51:45):
There was a lot of, and it was sometimes, like, the last
time I talked to you was in 88,the last time I talked to you
was in 96.
Oh.
Stephanie (51:53):
So very generational
Dani (51:55):
women going to prison and had met her.
Yeah.
And
Stephanie (51:58):
interacted.
Wow.
That is so interesting.
And
Dani (52:00):
she, she found God during, um, her From the night jailer
when she was originally, whileshe was pregnant.
and the night jailer introducedher to his wife.
Really?
And that when she got releasedduring that time when she was
(52:21):
pregnant
Stephanie (52:21):
mm-hmm.
Dani (52:22):
They actually took her in.
Stephanie (52:24):
Wow.
Dani (52:25):
Yeah.
And they, I didn't write any ofthis stuff down, so it's all
from memory, but.
They took her in and she foundGod.
She was a, she was a godlywoman.
and yeah,
Stephanie (52:38):
sounds like she
Dani (52:40):
was
Stephanie (52:40):
trying
Dani (52:40):
to
Stephanie (52:40):
do, I mean, she turned herself around.
It was too late.
It was too late.
But she was,
Dani (52:45):
she was thankful, for those pe She was so grateful.
I bet for those people that,'cause she had been a nomad and
just searching for something.
Her whole life.
Stephanie (52:58):
Yeah.
Like you said, she was lost.
Lost.
I not defending
Dani (52:59):
her by any means.
That's so wrong what happened toRobert.
But when you're in that kind ofa shitty situation where you're
sitting there and somebodyoffers you something that gives
you hope and makes you a betterperson, whatever it may be.
Mm-hmm.
Good.
Stephanie (53:16):
Yeah, it's good to hear that she made such a
positive impact and.
It didn't turn like Cree withthis fucking slicey dicey shit.
Right.
Dani (53:26):
It's, it's not like that.
Right.
So, so she's like, this is mylife.
I'm gonna take what I got.
I'm gonna try to do good withit.
Mm-hmm.
But still don't be killingpeople's to do
Stephanie (53:36):
in a situation like that
Dani (53:38):
And currently in 2025, McKinney is 63 and currently at
the Idaho State CorrectionalInstitution.
Stephanie (53:50):
Just chilling there.
I wonder if he had anyinteractions with other people
that we've
Dani (53:55):
Well, probably, yeah, but he was taken off death row in
Right, you're
Stephanie (54:01):
right.
Dani (54:01):
oh nine.
So,
Stephanie (54:05):
so he could have interacted with Creech though,
'cause he's been there forfucking Yeah.
Ever.
Dani (54:11):
Literally a lifetime.
Mm-hmm.
Um, anyway, I hope he enjoyedit.
Stephanie (54:17):
Interesting story for sure.
And just crazy when, you know,you try to put yourself in
someone's shoes of what someonewas thinking at the time.
And this was a wild one forthat.
I so many parties just beinglike.
Yeah, they're talking aboutkilling someone.
He is cleaning his gun saying heis going big time like no one
(54:39):
was.
Like, the vibes are a littleoff.
Like, are we okay?
Let's
Dani (54:42):
go get some beer and shoot some pool.
Yeah.
What did
Stephanie (54:44):
you mean
Dani (54:45):
by that?
Stephanie (54:46):
Where's the gun?
So I invited my friend to takeyou to the interstate like you
need and you wanna kill him.
Like, were you just, was that aweird joke?
No, no one was like
Dani (54:56):
laughing.
Huh?
What was that?
Yeah.
Stephanie (55:01):
But very, very strange for sure.
Dani (55:04):
I wanna thank everybody for listening.
Yes.
And please review and rate onwhen, wherever you're listening,
that helps us out a lot.
Yes.
We love
Stephanie (55:12):
to see review.
You can even leave like commentson Spotify and stuff.
Yeah.
Just what you thought of theepisode or questions you have.
Again, you can always email ustoo.
We've been getting more emailslately and we love them.
but.
The lethal library@gmail.com.
Shoot us an email if you havefurther questions.
But anything that you want to goover or have questions on, and
we're, we're happy to respondand we might do it on the pod or
(55:35):
we might just send you an emailhowever it goes.
But yeah, you guys have beenawesome We're getting so many
funny comments and interactionand we just, we love to see it.
So thank you
Dani (55:46):
and tell all of your murder mystery friends about us.
Word of mouth is the best.
Stephanie (55:51):
Yes, yes.
Thank you for doing all of that.
So anyway, that's what we've gotfor you today.
Uh, ten four rubber ducky.
Fuck yeah.
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