39. The Bunny Bash: A Lethal Legacy in Eastern Idaho

In this episode of the Lethal Library, hosts Dani and Stephanie delve into the wild history of Idaho's infamous 'Bunny Bash' of 1981. This isn't your typical true crime tale - think less murder mystery, more mass rabbit eradication. As Eastern Idaho farmers faced a literal invasion of crop-devouring jackrabbits, they resorted to brutal measures to protect their livelihood, leading to the clubbing of over 100,000 rabbits. The episode touches on the ecological impact, public outcry from animal rights activists, and the controversial methods used. Tune in to hear about farmers on horseback, the aftermath of the jackrabbit invasion, and the surprising disappearance of these relentless rodents by the following year.

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Episode Transcript

Dani (00:00):
I think we're look cute.
Matchy matchy today.
Yeah.
Not even planned.
Well, kind of planned once I sawyou.
'cause Well, I pulled this shirtout last night and I haven't
wore this in a fucking year.
Mm-hmm.
So.
Eva?
Eva, um, definitely digging thematchy.
Matchy, yes.

(00:20):
Twinning.
Absolutely.
It was December, 1981 and ineastern Idaho, more than 600
farmers, ranchers, and theirfamilies.
Came to kill jackrabbits tolocals.
It was survival to the outsideworld.

(00:41):
It looked like a massacre.
Animal rights activists calledit Barbaric.
The National Press called itquote the Bunny Bash.
Wow.
Sources used for today's episodeare articles from the Idaho
Statesmen, the Times News, andSouth Idaho Press.

(01:32):
Welcome back to the LethalLibrary.
I'm Stephanie.
And I'm Danny.
And we are a True crime podcastfocusing on cases in the Pacific
Northwest, specifically Idaho.
and clearly today we are hearinga story about the quote unquote
bunny bash.
not a bash like a party is whatI'm feeling.
No, not a party.

(01:52):
Different kind of bash.
So, uh, give you a littletrigger warning off the get go.
I found, in my researchdifficult to read some of these
things, and also to, to writethem.
so just a little trigger warningabout there's some animal.

(02:12):
Never good.
It's never good when it comes,it's not good.
so there's gonna be some thingsthat could maybe trigger you,
but I do feel it's important tospeak the whole truth about what
was happening.
In December, 1981, JeffersonCounty Farmers continued their
war against crop eatingjackrabbits on a frigid
Saturday, destroying at least15,000 in a massive three hour

(02:39):
roundup.
In only three hours, they bumpedthose numbers up like that's
incredible numbers.
About 600 ranchers, familymembers and friends.
Armed with an assortment ofbludgeons, ranging from ax
handles to golf clubs andbilliard cues.

(03:01):
Converged on the 5,000 acre farmof Jefferson County Rancher, Joe
Hartwell.
Supported by 15 horsemen, adozen motorcycles, and several
pickup truck drivers.
Participants formed a V-shapedline around the perimeter of Har
Well's property, and marchedacross two miles of open country

(03:23):
flushing countless jackrabbitsand driving them towards a large
enclosed pen.
I already am just amazed by thesheer numbers, 15,000.
I can't even, if you put 15,000pennies in front of me, I can't

(03:44):
even imagine what that wouldlook like and rabbit I feel like
I could picture 10, I could seewhat that looks like, maybe even
50.
Right.
This is absolutely wild.
And just that they were onmotorcycles and horses.
what is that game?
Where they're on horses and youplay it.

(04:05):
Lacrosse?
No, it's not polo.
It's a polo.
Polo, yes.
Thank you.
I'm like, you're so fucking, oh,I just missed my polo match last
week.
Shucks.
My horse was not feeling well.
so I'm just looking it up.
Um,

Stephanie (04:24):
what are you looking up?
How big Jack rabbits are?
Yeah.
Show me.

Dani (04:31):
They look like a tiny coyote to me.
So just to get an idea, youknow, we're talking about like,
how do you even picture that?
In Idaho, whitetailedjackrabbits are 22 to 26 inches
long and weigh seven to 13pounds, and then there's
blacktail jackrabbits that are20 to 24 inches long and weigh

(04:54):
four to eight pounds.
They're big.
Yeah, I mean there's dogssmaller.
Yeah.
Harry, how much does Harryweigh?
16 pounds.
So Damn.
Um, yeah, but he doesn't havethese big, large ears.

(05:15):
I mean, their ears are really,really long.
I just think that they probablylook at that.
I'm, I'm showing stuff a pictureThat is so cute.
I'm sorry.
Oh God.
With these big ears like, ohGod, here we go.
With that being said.

(05:36):
Several thousand rabbitspenetrated the line of club
wielding farmers and turned awayfrom the pen to scamper back
through the snow.
Covered sagebrush desert, buthundreds were clubbed to death
as they tried to escape.
One rancher estimated that up to5,000 rabbits got away.

(05:58):
Once the rabbits were about ahundred yards from the pen,
drivers lifted a makeshiftchicken wire fence to funnel
them inside and prevent morefrom escaping.
Many of the animals were clubbedto death as the barrier forced
them for in some spots.
Rabbit carcasses lay so deep itwas difficult to keep footing.

(06:21):
Oh, So it sounds like.
There was a lot of planning thatwent into this, and
strategically, as they say,there were 600 people out there.
Everyone's ready to go.
How can you get, you can't get600 people together for
anything.
You're like, Hey, charity event,five people show up, whatever,

(06:42):
six.
No.
When you start hearing somenumbers, you're gonna see, and
this is gonna sit.
You're gonna see the sense ofcommunity.
I know this is horrible.
It just, it doesn't sound rightcoming outta my mouth, but there
you're gonna hear more about,well, having that many rabbits
on a whatever, two square miles.

(07:05):
But it's a 5,000 acre farm,right?
Is that what I said?
Yeah.
5,000 acre farm.
That's just.
Which you can't, I can't evencomprehend 5,000 acres.
Looks like either.
These are large numbers, butit's also, in southeast Idaho,
where it's, it's desert unlessyou have a canal.

(07:27):
Yeah.
So we are not the, flowing hillsof the Palouse area in northern
Idaho.
Mm-hmm.
This is, it's it's desert.
It's high desert, sagebrush.
And that's where the jackrabbits live and that's where
they live.
And they reproduce.
Like what rabbits?
Huh?
How many times have you, yeah.

(07:47):
You've heard that saying every,it's a saying for a reason.
Many rabbits thrashed on thesnowy ground after being struck.
Some uttering high pitchedscreams.
Oh no.
Silence of the lambs.
A teenager put one out of itsmisery with a karate chop to the
back of its head.

(08:09):
Okay, we're being very creative.
Karate chopping anotheryoungster picked up a struggling
rabbit by its ears while acompanion punched it with a
clenched fist.
I'm not loving that at all.
I am not either.
Well, and just because like.
It's inhuman.
The indications of like actuallybeating an animal physically

(08:32):
with your hands versus if youhave to shoot an animal to put
it down or something.
There, there is a differencethere, and I don't love it.
Let's just remind everybody ofthe times it doesn't make an
excuse, but it is an 81.
Right?
And these are farmers.
Sure.
Um, and so we're gonna talkabout.

(08:53):
Yeah.
Other ways coming along in thisstory.
but do you know the cost of15,000 bullets?
You're, you do have a pointthere.
Yeah.
So just, I'm not justifying, Iam just raising, like, we've got
a budget.
Yeah.
I, I'm just, I'm not justifyingthis behavior at all.

(09:14):
the numbers I, I truly cannotpicture.
Mm-hmm.
And listen, if there was 15,000rabbits, I think it would be
less cute to me and be a littlescary.
Mm-hmm.
Those eyes, 30,000 eyes lookingat you, that is, do you mathed?
Mm-hmm.
Women in stem?

(09:35):
Yes.
to keep more rabbits fromslipping out of the enclosed
area.
Pickup trucks took people backto the perimeter of Hartwell
property where they whistled,jeered, shouted at the fleeing
animals to scare them backtowards the pen.
They were, they were rustlingthem up outta that stage.
Uh, rustling.

(09:55):
Yeah.
One man had three large cans,tin cans tied together and
draped over his shoulders, andhe would shake'em and bang'em
up.
Just scaring the shit out ofhim.
Yeah.
Just to get him to move.
The participants called the DayArousing Success compared to the

(10:16):
previous Saturday's Roundup 10miles south at Mudd Lake when
about 2000 rabbits were killed.
So this has been a thing, butnow it's a big thing.
Yeah.
Arvin Twitchel, a chairman ofthe Mud Lake Rabbit Committee.

(10:37):
They have a full committee forit.
It's a big deal.
Said that the Mount View Roundupwas better organized and
participants were less botheredby reporters, photographers, and
television crews.
Many that had crowded the eventthe previous week had kept the

(10:59):
new location secret fromreporters.
But the side of the quote,rodent Drive, as organizers
called it was common knowledgearound Mud Lake.
And this Mudd Lake is a smallagricultural community of 240,
and journalists were among theearliest arrivals at the
Heartwell farm.

(11:21):
mud Lake is about 10 miles fromRexburg.
Okay?
Okay.
Hi, that's Desert.
Desert.
Desert.
If I very desert, and for thosethat might not know Rexburg, if
you followed the Lori Vallowtrial, that's where Chad debell
lived.
Very eastern Idaho.

(11:42):
small town.
Small town, yeah.
and you can all see the, and if.
If you are in, did your crimeand have, have looked at some of
like the aerial photos of likethe David, the day's house
property and everything.
It's like that.
Yeah.
But that's farmed.
Mm-hmm.
Prop like truly farmed propertywhere they've already planted

(12:05):
grass and all of that.
A lot of these ranchers outthere are running cattle.
In the sagebrush.
Right.
And so it's not all green grass,it's literally dusty dirt with
some sagebrush, but they have,and the cows will munch.
There might be some grass hereor there, but they're feeding
their yeah.
Cows as well.
And they do have.

(12:25):
Fields, but that's not whereeverything's at on a ranch.
Mm-hmm.
They might have, you know, outof 5,000 acres, he might have
3000 planted in alfalfa, whichis just such a huge number.
and then the other 2000 is justdry land that he rotates as his
cows on.
Sure.
So, you know, it's, it's a lotgoing on, but it's not, it's not
all greenfields out there.

(12:47):
The elder Twitchell said that hehad received hundreds of calls
and letters from outraged animallovers who insisted the rabbits
could be killed more humanely,some letters, and one call had
even threatened his life, whichI don't get.
Like if killing is bad, why arewe threatening to kill?

(13:08):
Doesn't make sense.
Not matching there.
He blamed much of the backlash.
On the sensationalized pressreports, Twitchell said 8,000 of
the rabbits would be shipped toa mink farm in Iowa to be used
for food.
Twitchell sum.
Bart said a mink farmer wouldpay 15 cents per carcass.

(13:32):
So I will, I feel like it's nota total waste.
I'm not digging how this ishappening.
But they're, they're trying to umm-hmm.
Utilize the, and they're notprofiting like very much.
No, no.
And I don't even think that itwas for, I don't think it was

(13:52):
for profit.
Yeah.
There, he's just like, Hey,there's somebody that'll buy
this.
The, you wanna talk aboutbrutality?
Let's talk about mink, minkfarms.
But anyways, right.
They're gonna feed these, thesedead carcasses to the mink
farmers.
I don't think I even know what amink is.
Danny, I'm, that's far, so faroutside of my tax.

(14:14):
I don't own a mink.
I don't either.
Show me a mink.
Okay, we gotta look at it.
And they're, they eat meat.
Mm-hmm.
They're like dying for a bunnycar.
There was,

Stephanie (14:25):
um,

Dani (14:29):
are they like a badger, a ferret?
Uh, I literally have neverlooked this up in my life.
Yeah.
They're like an almost terlooking.
They're cuter.
They're very cute.
Like a, a bigger ferret.
Oh my gosh, that one's verycute.
Oh, but they're very shiny.

(14:50):
See how pretty their fer is?
Yeah.
Yeah, they're very purdy.
Why is there so many wet ones?
Like we're going to, they, theyclearly love bun.
Oh, that looks like a stuffedanimal.
That one's, that looks like ataxidermy.
It probably is.
Hence why They're really fuckingcute.
They're tiny ears.

(15:11):
Oh yeah.
I would say they love bunnies.
They love to eat the bunnies.
They are meat eaters.
Let me just Google that.
Oh, they're Garmins.
Minks are opportunisticcarnivores that eat a wide
variety of animals, includingfish, rodents, amphibians.
They're like, I don't, theydon't discriminate birds, their

(15:33):
eggs, insects, crawfish.
They love a nice egg here andthere.
No, it says their diet shiftswith the seasons with more
emphasis on aquatic prey in thesummer and more mammals in the
winter.
Minks are adept hunters both onland and in water, often diving
under underwater to catch theirmills.
So they look real cute, butthey're ready to.

(15:55):
Take any animal out.
Yeah.
To eat it.
It's, it kind of reminds me likeof what a coyote would be.
An opportunist.
Sure.
Like whatever you can get.
What?
Let's go.
Yeah.
I'm not above a bird.
Yeah.
If I can catch a bird, gimmeyour eggs, bitch.
Some fresh eggs.
Let's go breakfast bitch.
So, so they were going toutilize the dead.

(16:18):
Mm-hmm.
Rabbits.
Bart Twitchell also said that200 to 300 live rabbits would be
shipped out of state to traingreyhound racing dogs, which is
another terrible, and I mean, soit's like, I mean, at least
they're doing something insteadof just rotting.
But then we're supporting theseother not great industries.

(16:43):
what else can we support for?
Let's remember the Times.
Yeah.
81, right?
Okay.
Farmer said, so what's the deal,right?
Yeah.
Why?
Why are we, what's happening?
Why are we rounding up 15,000rabbits?
Farmer said Jack Rabbits hadcosts an estimated 5 million in

(17:04):
crop damage that year insoutheastern Idaho.
Really?
Hartwell.
had been a farmer since 1918.
Golly.
Wow.
said that over the prior threemonths, the rabbits had
destroyed hundreds of acres ofgrassland and tons of hay.

(17:25):
He used to feed his cattle.
He said even when the rabbitsdidn't eat the hay, their waste
made it unpalatable for thecattle shit.
Literally.
Yeah.
So I think this is kind ofgiving you the idea of what's
going on here and, and the whybehind.

(17:46):
They're not just like, Hey, it'sjust for fun.
Yeah, let's round up theserabbits and just kill'em.
But still opinions, spectatorsand some participants had come
from Portland, salt Lake andDenver, a Portland commercial
photographer, Tom Ethan wasthere.

(18:07):
For freelance photos andstories.
So this is, this is what you'regonna get here.
The gap of people while RogerLibby of Mountain Home came to
help.
He was like, yeah, that's kindof bringing a 22 caliber rifle,
a 38 caliber handgun, and athousand rounds of ammunition.
Oh, he, he was like, this is a,a worthy investment for me.

(18:30):
Quote, I just came down for thehell of it.
Libby said, I didn't reallythink there'd be that many
rabbits here.
And he's like, I should have gotmore ammunition.
A thousand thousand rounds.
Rounds.
I thought I was overdoing it,not enough.
Kay Gillespie, a Weber StateUniversity sociology professor,

(18:51):
said he came to study the peopledoing the killing, surveying
dozens of families, bundledagainst the freezing
temperatures and snow showers.
This is in December, he said,not fun.
This is.
Kind of a social event.
There's a sense of community andsocial organization here, but I

(19:12):
don't get the feeling thatthey're enjoying this
interesting commentary.
As Eastern Idaho Farmers stage,their second rabbit drive near
Mud Lake conservationists warnedthe slaughter could trigger a
boycott of Idaho products.
quote, the conservationistmovement across the nation is

(19:35):
quite appalled by what hashappened, said Michael Bailey of
Portland, a member of the200,000 member Fund for animals,
quote, by our communicationswith the governor's office and
other state officials.
We basically feel that we havebeen lied to.
We feel very drastic.

(19:55):
Steps may need to be takenagainst the state of Idaho and
the state government, includinga targeted boycott of products.
So we're getting, we're gettingour animal lovers out here, and
this is where you're gonna see,yeah, some clashing going on.
Mm-hmm.

(20:15):
Which I'm just also amazed.
One at the amount of people theywere able to get here from
multiple states, because this isnot social media.
Mm-hmm.
and that makes it so much easierto organize and you will it's so
easy.
I feel like Bob's calling Johnand John is calling Frank and
Frank is calling Henry or isthere some Henry chain letter
that's going around where it'slike, but I mean these are

(20:37):
happening week after week, likeshort order.
Yeah, and it is, it is being,there is a media there.
Mm-hmm.
So it's in the press.
Yeah.
And that's, that is the media isthe only media.
It was on the nightly news, likenobody was making tiktoks or
Bunny Bash at the twitchestonight at 5:00 PM Yeah.

(20:59):
So, wow.
Idaho Governor John Evans andAttorney General Leroy had said
that they lacked legal authorityto intervene and could only try
to see that the rabbits werekilled.
Humanely Bailey, part of thethree Member Fund for Animals
team that's coming over here andwatching everything.

(21:21):
Yeah.
Traveled to witness the driveand he said, quote, contrary to
reports, the situation was thesame as it was last weekend.
They were carrying big sticks,trying to run down the rabbits
and beat them up.
I was very, very shocked at whathad occurred by the time that

(21:43):
they ran those rabbits down.
They're near death anyway, hesaid they had flown over the
site early Saturday and decided.
Not to try to drive the rabbitsaway for the fear of spooking
horses being ridden by some ofthe participants.
Right?
Sure.
Thank God somebody had a littlerational thought.
Mm-hmm.

(22:04):
but they, they did fly fartherout over the desert and they
spotted a herd of 500 Jackjackrabbits, and they drove
those deeper into the sagebrush.
I didn't even, I mean, I, I knowwe all know about.
Bunnies repopulating, but justthinking of herds of 500 or a
thousand, that's wild to me.

(22:25):
I did, I had no clue.
Just to give you an idea of, ofthe reproduction of these
rabbits, they typically have.
A prolonged breeding season fromlate winter through summer and
can produce several litters ayear.
The gestation period lasts about42 days.

(22:46):
So you're talking six weeksinstantly.
Yeah.
Resulting in one to six perlitter.
The exact number of litters andthe length of the breeding
season can be dependent onspecific, yeah.
The climate, everything speciesand their location.
they typically female jackrabbits, typically have two to

(23:08):
four letters, but sometimes upto five or seven, depending on
the client.
I'm probably gonna say we're twoto four with the area, right?
With it being a four season areabecause they start in late
winter.
yeah, and they said that, that,the females can become pregnant
again very quickly.
Yeah.
Sounds like it.

(23:28):
Mm-hmm.
And so think having six littersor even four litters times 6 24
from one female Yeah.
In, in just a winter.
Yeah.
Uh, fun fact, Litters typicallyconsist of three to six babies,

(23:51):
also known as ettes.
What do, why do they always haveto make up some of the weirdest
names for the children ofdifferent animals?
Sometimes it's like, where thefuck do you get that labettes?
Let me just tell you what thatreminds me of.
majorettes, what are they, what,what is that?

(24:14):
Nothing pisses off an old farmerfrom personal experience.
a rancher pronouncing the nameof an animal wrong.
So I had piggies, I had pigs andI called them pink pigs.
Yeah, they were piggies, theywere pigs to me.

(24:35):
To a farmer.
They are hogs

Stephanie (24:40):
and oh my God, I don't you ever call a hog?
Hog a pig?
I got some

Dani (24:44):
py rolls doing that.
don't they have ones like a sow?
Is that a pig?
Do you want me to get the, therundown?
I do.
I need to know this.
Okay, so you have, lemme see ifI can remember.
Hot minute.
Okay, so a boar.
Is a male pig with his junk, leswith his junk.

(25:10):
A, there's a boar, there's asow.
I got one right.
I got Sal.
I'm very proud of myself.
Guilt, guilt.
Yeah, there's a guilt.
Okay, why are we, are webringing guilt into this?
Who di?
Who designed that is God?
And then there's a shame andthen there's a trauma.

(25:30):
why are we what?

Stephanie (25:32):
Hang on.

Dani (25:33):
I do like murder of crows, though.
That's very cool.
And seems relevant, but a guilt.
So you've heard of a boar.
Yeah, so it's got all of hisparts.
He is the big daddy.
He, him?
Mm-hmm.
All the way.

(25:54):
All the way.
Then you have a sow.
And a sow is a female pig who'shad a litter, a piglets.
She's proven herself by having alitter.
The baby boys.
'cause you always cut.
If you're not keeping them for aboar and you're raising them for
meat, you are, they're gettingnutted.

(26:15):
Mm-hmm.
It's my silence of the lambssomeday.
I'll tell you the story.
It is horrible.
I dunno if I wanna hear it.
Uh, those are called barrows.
Barrows.
Yeah.
So male pigs without their junkare called barrows and a female
that has not had a litter iscalled Agel, GILT.

(26:37):
I get that the spelling'sdifferent, but it sounds the
same.
Why are we shaming this pooryoung woman?
Well, we will talk about the cowspecies another time.
There's all kinds of names forthat too.
Oh, fuck.
Why see?
My knowledge is deep and wide.
Thank you.
All right.
I just wish that there wassimpler, and I don't wanna be

(26:57):
called a guilt that seems rudeand impolite.
I just think the SOW would be abetter guilt.
Right.
Thank you.
From my experience, let's justnot, I mean, we grew up not
shame women.
I grew up where we were shamed.
You know, God forbid if youwanted to have sex, oh, she's

(27:17):
just a young little guilt.
Right?
You know, look at that littleguilt over there.
Are you feeling the guilt?
Guilt?
When I was growing up, if youhad sex once, you were a slut.
It should be called a guilt.
Thank you.

(27:38):
But you know what?
Do it to it.
Leave the pigs alone.
I can see someone being like,piggies.
How dare you?
How very dare you?
I loved pigs.
They're my favorite.
I have them all over my house.
Mm-hmm.
She does.
Thank you.
Fun fact.
And I'm not talking about onlylittle figurines.
Has life, life-sized.
I have a full sized, soabsolutely.

(27:59):
Life sized on the plant shelf inthe living room.
I, I didn't, I don't know howthe fuck you got it up there.
It was a struggle, but it's atthe worth, peak of the ceiling.
That's the only place it wouldfit.
It's worth it.
Yeah.
Anyway.
Makes an impression for sure.
Thank you.
Danny's got a special place inher heart for the PEs.
They're like, they're like dogs.

(28:20):
Mm-hmm.
Whole nother story.
Okay.
so the Mud Lake Farmers RabbitCommittee said it had killed at
least 30,000 jack rabbits,including an estimated 12,000 in
that day's drive.
The prior Saturday, about 2000had been clubbed to death by God

(28:43):
damn, by a thousand JeffersonCounty, by a thousand Jefferson
County residents who heard ofthe, they were down, who heard
of the animals, and two.
A funnel shaped trap and holdingpin.
I want you to think about what$5million looks like now, and I
want you to think about what$5million look like nearly, you

(29:06):
know, 45 years ago.
Yeah, no, that was big money.
Mm-hmm.
A and.
I feel, and I could be wrong,but I feel like farmers back in
the eighties are a lot differentthan these conglomerate farmers
that we have now.
Sure.

(29:26):
And it was, it was feast orfamine, literally for these
guys.
And they're working 365 days ayear.
They're not, they're not pullingin millions of dollars.
Mm-hmm.
They're, they're not, I mean,they're probably making.
Decent money with hard work, buthow many is that all six of your

(29:47):
kids, right?
Doing all the work and thenyou're splitting all that money
plus your grandchildren plus, Imean, that's how it works,
right?
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Sure.
Arvin Twitchell said two moredrives would likely be conducted
in the next two weeks.
Damn, they're getting it done.
Bailey accused Idaho officialsof engineering.

(30:12):
A quote, snow job to make conconservation groups believe the
second drive would be different.
Quote, this bunny bash has givena complete blight to the state
of Idaho.
He said, instead of thinkingabout potatoes, they're going to
think about dead bunnies acrossthe world when they think of
Idaho, he predicted that ifanother drive was held the

(30:37):
Saturday after Christmas.
Hundreds from across the nationwould come to try to stop it
saying people in many parts ofthe United States and the world
possessed quote, at least areasonable amount of compassion
towards humanity toward theanimal of which there is none
out here.

(30:58):
Hmm, okay.
He was very passionate.
He was, yeah.
In January of 1982.
The Fund for Animals proposedanother alternative.
A rabbit ranch representativeMichael Bailey said they would

(31:19):
contribute money to fenceseveral square miles of
sagebrush land, 20 to 50 milesfrom Mud Lake, where scientists
could study rabbits and learnhow to avoid future
overpopulation.
The 200,000 member group waswilling to spend 15 to$20,000 to

(31:40):
fence a four to eight acresquare mile area.
And rent or buy trucks totransport the rabbits, which is
about 50 to$55,000 today.
Fuck up boys.
Yeah.
That is not to me.
If you're so PA 50 cars costmore than that.
People can donate.

(32:00):
Yeah.
where's your ticky talk?
Rally the troops 50,000.
If they were able to rally somany people to come to do the
bunny bash.
And they're also threateningthat these conservation groups
are gonna boycott, which mustmean that they have a meaningful
amount of people that willboycott to make a difference
then.
Yeah, I, it sounds totallydoable.

(32:23):
The group has selected apossible site but wouldn't
reveal its location.
Or whether it was private orpublic land.
Well, you kind of got to dothat.
Yeah, well, it's the RabbitRanch, a short-term solution to
the inhumane killing, along-term project to learn how

(32:43):
to control rabbits in thefuture.
Bailey said, and that would benice to, to figure out how to
avoid, because it does soundlike, I mean, we're talking 15,
20,000 rabbits on.
Yeah, that's just still animmense to even know that
there's that many that like howdid they even count'em?

(33:05):
Farm Bureau spokesman, JohnHatch called the plan quote.
Completely absurd.
He said, he said, I don't thinkthey realize the food the
rabbits can consume.
He said, and that was theproblem.
They won't do well in captivity.
They'll kill each other.

(33:26):
Bailey said he would meet Hatchto discuss the proposal.
So a different type of BunnyBunny bash Bunny on Bunny
bashing.
Yeah, bunny on Bunny crime.
And I'm with Wild.
They will eat each other.
They will.
They will.
Like we saw in the Liger King.
Yeah.
They will eat each other whenit, they're not, they don't,
they aren't built with compa.

(33:46):
Like they don't have thatreasoning.
And it's the survival instinct.
Yeah.
People will eat each other ifthey have to.
I read the book alive like fourtimes.
Really?
Yeah, I'm gonna watched themovie probably 10.
Wow.
You know what?
Do you know what I'm talking?
I have no idea what you'retalking about.
Oh, where they crashed the planein the Andes.

(34:08):
It had Ethan Hawk.
Yes.
And they do have to.
Yeah, they do.
And they did to survive.
Mm-hmm.
Uh.
Book Way better.
I mean, I enjoyed the moviebook, always better book, always
better book, better movie,sometimes good.
Still never better.
Still never better.
I've never had, even when I'veloved the movie and I've read
the book and absolutely love themovie, the book is always

(34:31):
better.
You just have more opportunityunless you're, I will say if the
book is that good, do a series,an HBO series for the book.
Then you might be able to do thebook justice.
'cause you just don't have thetime in two to three hours to do
what a book can do.
Correct.

(34:51):
Thank you.
There's no way to do it.
Skepticism also came from theIdaho Humane Society, executive
Director Max Finch and PatCostello.
An aid to Governor Evans.
Quote, I really don't want tothrow cold water on it.
If they can put it together, themore power to Ello said.
They're like, yeah, try it.
Tear it up.

(35:12):
It just seems like there's a newhot solution every week.
This seems to be the one forthis week, Hatch said that he
was worried the group wouldsimply release the animals.
Mm Quote for one thing.
I don't trust them becausethere's no reason to trust them.
He said there is no reason tobelieve that they would keep the
animals pinned up.

(35:34):
It would be absolutelyunacceptable for them to let
them loose.
Well, and if they started seeingthe rabbits killing each other,
they might have originallythought, we'll keep him in here.
And then saw, and then theymight panic, saw some carnage,
and they're like, oh my gosh.
There's absolute mutiny on ourhands and rabbit crime.

(35:55):
Mm-hmm.
True rabbit on rabbit crime.
It's a huge deal.
I would just like for you topicture, let's just take.
You know what is a good example?
What, what if there was 15,000pack rats at the cabin?

(36:17):
Terrifying.
No, and I was just, I wasactually just thinking that
because some places getoverwhelmed with gophers.
Mm-hmm.
And they will start, you can getsome, a tiny bit of money from a
gopher, car dead gopher,whatever you wanna call it.
And there's traps and there'ssmoking amount and all these
different ways flooding out, notvery humane, but it's pretty

(36:42):
acceptable.
no one really bats an eye.
Someday I will talk about thepack rat situation.
It's brutal.
Pack Rats are fiendish, fiendishanimals and quite terrifying.
They're fucking huge and they'recute.

(37:03):
I don't think they're cute.
You don't think?
I think they're cute.
Have you ever seen'em When wecough, aren't they big?
Did you ever look at theirlittle face in their little
ears?
A okay, if I thought a littleminks was cute.
I'm sure it might, I might beable to to to get into it, but
Okay.
Do they ha they have that littlenaked tail though?

(37:24):
No, they don't.
Don't, they don't.
It's a furry tail.
Like, all right, now I'm openingup to this.
'cause the naked tail is fuckingcreepy.
Uh, like a ground squirrel, likethe little squirrels that we
have up there.
Mm-hmm.
They have just like this littlehair on each side.
Yeah, just a little.
It's not a naked rat tail.
They don't look like rats.
Right.
They look like a cross between asquirrel and a hamster.

(37:48):
Okay.
That is very cute because theygot the little cute round ears
that you like.
I do like those.
Okay.
But 15,000 mm would, that is alittle scary.
It only takes one to eat aleather fucking couch to ask her
how she knows.
Anyway, I digress.

(38:08):
critics also accuse Bailey ofmisrepresenting himself to
infiltrate the drives.
No, this fucking bitchundercover.
He was probably like, I've gotmy golf clubs.
Where do I get to start whackingthese?
These?
But no, he's like, Bailey, hesaid.
Deception had been necessary tolearn about the roundups and

(38:28):
stop what he called theinhumane, killing a massacre.
He and fund worker Jerry Owenshad joined a drive posing as
greyhound trainers seekingrabbits for their dogs.
Oh my gosh.
This is getting intense.
They're like, we could beundercover.

(38:49):
Quote, it does not give me agood feeling, but in situations
like this, there is no othermethod of obtaining the
information you need.
Bailey said, the attitude of thefarmers has been, they don't
want to discuss this matter.
If they had been more open withus, we would've been more open
with them.
Bailey volunteered for the fund,which covered his motel and

(39:13):
expenses.
He said he belonged toGreenpeace and the SAU Society
and made a living with freelancephotography, sheet metal and
plumbing.
Hmm.
Owens was a paid investigatorand he had been sent to Idaho to
step up the fund's effort.

(39:33):
Quote, we are willing to spendany amount necessary on this
atrocity.
Any amount, 50,000.
That's, that's what you werewilling to spend?
Yeah.
Don't say any.
Actually, it was 15 to 20,000,but now, yeah, nowadays Money
50.
fund President Cleveland a Amar,said quote, these people are

(39:57):
indecent people giving anindecent death.
Owens from Tyler, Texas saidthat unless an alternative to
clubbing was found, the fundwould file criminal charges or
seek an injunction for crueltyto animals.

(40:18):
Wow.
This, and listen, I don'tpicturing it and seeing it and
all of this.
I don't like it.
However, it's a, this was a hugeproblem, and if it was my
property, I don't care if I'mfarming or not.
If I had 10 acres and had athousand jack rabbits on my 10
acres eating every, you couldn'teven have a fucking sprig of

(40:43):
grass.
It's my proper, like I know thatit sucks, and if it wasn't a
protected wildlife thing.
there's balances that you canhave, and I, I get that they are
appalled by it too, and wannainvestigate and get in on it,
but also provide solutions.
I, my, a big pet peeve of mineis someone who is Ally, this is

(41:07):
a problem.
Fix it.
I, and I, I, I love that someonebrings it up, but if you never
can provide solutions, I knowthey said the Bunny Ranch was
one.
But again, they will literallyeat each other.
They are, they are.
Road look, they find a betterway to kill them.
Yeah, because you don't like theway that they're being killed.
Find one that isn't gonna costsomeone the same amount of money

(41:29):
that they've already lost in allof their, you know, farming
stuff that they're doing.
what is the solution?
Is there a better way that wecan kill them that you feel is
more humane Provide so somethinginstead of bitching, let's go.
Or put'em on that damn ranch andsign some contracts that say
that this is what you're gonnado and you're not allowed to

(41:49):
release to neighboring places orwhatever like that would've not
worked.
Have exit photos.
They would've, they would'verescued those rabbits.
I'm telling you.
And just based on what we talkedabout, the multiplication One
rabbit in short.
One in having 24 babies.
Per year one.

(42:11):
And then those 24 babies aregonna have another 24 baby.
Like it's 24 babies each.
Yeah.
And then all of a sudden there'sall of a sudden they're eating
each other.
Can I just be crass and sayfucking like rabbits, like
literally it's a thing.
Finch cautioned that the fund'stactic might be creating ill
will among farmers and said hedisagreed with the proposed

(42:35):
boycott of Idaho potatoes andother products.
Idaho Growers ShippersAssociation, executive Director
David Smith, said the boycotthad no effects on shipments and
the Idaho Potato CommissionDirector Gordon Randall said
that there was no way to knowwhether consumers were buying
fewer potatoes.

(42:56):
They're trying to rallysomething.
Mm-hmm.
But they're not seeing anyeffect.
Okay.
Owen's concluded.
Rising hostility between farmersand animal welfare groups might
hinder efforts to stop theclubbing.
I'm a little bit down about thewhole situation.

(43:16):
He said it's the worst thingthat can happen.
We'll play with egos for a whileand the rabbits will keep on
getting hurt.

Stephanie (43:26):
Hmm.

Dani (43:28):
On January 6th, 1982, Idaho Farm Bureau Federation
officials said fundrepresentatives who wanted to
set up the rabbit ranch hadfailed to show up for talks on
feasibility.
I would rather like to havenothing to do with him.
Anymore at all.
Executive John Hatch said hoursafter the plan meeting fell

(43:50):
through Hatch and fellowofficial, Andy Anderson said the
no show intensified thedispleasure with

Stephanie (43:58):
Bailey and Owens.
And listen, I can, I can sharein that,'cause I've already said
it once, but they are o to do afeasibility study Uh, I think a
lot of people are familiar withwhat that is.
Like.
Okay, let's scope it out.
What would it look like?
What would we need for your

Dani (44:15):
fence?
Bunny ranch.

Stephanie (44:16):
Yes.
And what are the things thatyou, you need different
stakeholders in People that knowthis species, pe, people that
know the land People.
Once again, where is the landgonna be?
Public or private?
That's kind of important.
That's a big deal.
Yeah.
Do you, are you needing to buythe land or can the government
give you a piece of public landto do this to?

(44:39):
Because listen, I think thatbeing able to study them and if
there's ways that you can reducethe massive, reproduction and
spread, if there's somethingthat can be found from it, sure,
let's go.
then it would, then it will helpthe farmers, but it doesn't with
them to just ghost.
I would be like, we're fuckingtrying, you guys, we're open to

(45:02):
your bunny ranch idea.
We are literally getting peoplehere, important people, decision
makers,

Dani (45:09):
and you're no-show.
This is sometimes people with acause are all talk

Stephanie (45:15):
and no action.
And there's some people that arebig idea people but not doers.
But then it's yourresponsibility to get in the
doers.
To find the doers

Dani (45:24):
Yes.
That believe in your cause, andthat can be so frustrating.
And you can take it down to asimple, I mean, even a
neighborhood association wherepeople are complaining about
something.
So, Bailey and Owens have beenasking to end the Mud Lake
roundups that have resulted inthe slaughter of 55,000

(45:45):
jackrabbits.

Stephanie (45:46):
Oh, shit.
They're really, they're steppingit up, no pun intended, but tr
Absolutely true.
Killing it like that.
I'm, I was gonna say it, notknowing what I was saying.
I don't know they, but literally55,000, they're getting a dad.

Dani (46:08):
Do not put something between farmers and feeding
their families.
Uh, yeah.
and Farmers were enraged that.
That Bailey and Owens had posedas participants to observe the
killing and spirit away woundedanimals.

Stephanie (46:31):
No, and I can, I can see that, you know, they're the,
the deception is going andthat's not help the actual
people where they're like, they

Dani (46:39):
actually did take some rabbits and they put'em in a
hotel bathroom.
In the tub, and some of them areinjured and some of them died.
I didn't write all that.
I didn't wanna get, well, Ididn't wanna get too de descrip
descriptive, but they did.
They, they stole some.

Stephanie (46:58):
And what does that look like?
You got a big ass burlap sack.
You're just getting injured

Dani (47:02):
rabbits in it.
hatch and Owens had asked byphone for a meeting with Farm
Bureau officials and HumaneSociety Director Mac Finch at
2:00 PM Wednesday, but by lateafternoon, the Bureau was
closing for the day without aword from Owens or Bailey.
Get your shit together, boys.

(47:23):
You are gonna cause a ruckus.
Mm-hmm.
Ask for a boycott.
You better be fucking showingup.
It's just irresponsible.
Yeah.
It, it's just irresponsible.
I can understand

Stephanie (47:33):
if no one was willing to talk with them or meet with
them or discuss and we're tryingto run them out of the town.
It doesn't sound like that's thecase.
Like

Dani (47:41):
No, but they're like, don't pose this Greyhound dog
owner.
Yeah.
The jig is up.
Yeah.
Like, okay.
We got you.
Let's talk about it.
But to cause a ruckus and thennot to, and not a national
ruckus calling for a boycott.
Yeah.
And you think you have asolution and these farmers are

(48:03):
willing to come talk to you.
Show up and take your stand.
Yeah, man.
Do it.
Mm-hmm.
On January 13th, more than athousand rabbits were killed by
strict nine laced alfalfa in atest.
They're trying to find analternative and I don't know if
I like

Stephanie (48:23):
that.

Dani (48:24):
I don't know.
Can I look up what Strick ninedoes?
Yeah, I can look that up.

Stephanie (48:27):
I would, I would like to know, I mean, we all know of
Strick nine, and I know that ifanother animal eats an animal
and that's gonna come up.
Yeah.
That it will hurt them.
And so now you're, now you'reaffecting the whole ecosystem.
I mean, and listen, you areaffecting the whole ecosystem
when you're killing off a bunchof rabbits, but clearly they

(48:49):
don't have a predator that ismanaging the species and taking
them out enough to manage thethousands, tens of thousands of
rabbits that are out here.
What does it do?
Terrible, right?
I'm sure it is.
Any, there's not usually an easypoison,

Dani (49:07):
strict nine poisoning is a medical emergency where the
body's muscles go into violent,painful spasms because the
poison blocks the off switch fornerve signals to muscles.
Okay, this is, this is paintingthe picture.
This leads to extreme musclestiffness, uncontrolled.

(49:28):
Arching of the neck and back,and then eventually the person
can't breathe.
The, the rabbit can't breathe,which can be fatal.
It is fatal.
Symptoms appear quickly, oftenwithin minutes of exposure,
making prompt, medicalattention, crucial.
Uh, they weren't saving therabbits.
Yeah.
But, The off switch, it says,strict nine blocks, a chemical

(49:50):
in your brain and spinal cordthat acts like a break on muscle
signals.
Wow.
And then it says there'sconstant muscle stimulation with
the break.
Gone.
Muscles are consistently beingtold to contract leading to
severe, uncontrollable andpainful.
Imagine

Stephanie (50:07):
that of the arching of the neck and back if you, if
your body was involuntarily andforcefully, vi violently is how
it said it.
Doing that, would you like maybethink like

Dani (50:17):
a seizure type of a

Stephanie (50:18):
situation almost?
Or even e even if it's justcontracting and you're violently
being thrown back andcontracting in that way and your
hands and arms and everything.

Dani (50:29):
I'm saying if you ha, if I had to pick, if they said, Hey,
he gotta pick away to go, do youwant me to, do you want me to
shoot you in the head?
Or do you wanna take poison?
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie (50:40):
Or even.
A fucking bat to the headbecause I wouldn't know

Dani (50:44):
honestly after that

Stephanie (50:47):
if you can get it done in one swing.
Especially even if two like, andthis is just my personal
opinion, but this is for me.
I don't wanna be having a musclespasm contract within, so a few
minutes and you're just, yourwhole body.
You've lost all control in apainful, arching situation.

(51:07):
No, I don't like it.

Dani (51:08):
No.
I

Stephanie (51:09):
don't wanna do that.
No, not for me.

Dani (51:12):
Nope.
And I don't wanna be strangledeither.
'cause then you know what'shappening.

Stephanie (51:16):
No, not that we gotta

Dani (51:17):
talk about it.

Stephanie (51:18):
Mm-hmm.

Dani (51:18):
Um, yeah.
Quick, fast.
Okay.
I'm glad we looked that'cause Ididn't look that up Right.

Stephanie (51:27):
Of how it actually works.

Dani (51:29):
Like you think

Stephanie (51:30):
of and I've, it's not like they just go to sleep and
don't wake up.
Right?
It's not like, oh, it justputting an animal down or
something.
I just had some

Dani (51:37):
alfalfa and I'm so fat and sassy.
I'm gonna go and take a nap andnever wake up.
It's not like that.
If

Stephanie (51:42):
there was something that could do that, that'd be
fantastic.
That would be great.

Dani (51:46):
Yeah.
Give me a little overdose.

Stephanie (51:49):
Honestly, I need an extended nap.
Yeah, let's go.
In this economy.
Sorry guys, that was dark.
We're not.
We're good.
Please don't call a wellnesscheck.
We're fine.
Okay.

Dani (52:03):
members of the Bingham County Rodent Control District
placed 16 pounds of baitcontaining two ounces of poison
at the farm of Blaine Bensonnear Taber.
It could be Tabor.
I should have looked that up.
My bad.
I don't know.
These are very tiny towns insoutheastern Idaho and we are

(52:24):
more southwestern.
Yeah, Boise Nampa is allsouthwest, so I'm gonna nail
those names, but some of theselittle towns, I'm gonna fuck up
and I apologize.

Stephanie (52:35):
It's our state, but our state is.
Not the biggest, but it's fairlybig and there is so many fucking
small towns.

Dani (52:53):
Eastern Idaho farmers said Jackrabbits had destroyed more
than 10 million in crops.
And, and this is why I thinkthat just the collective, this
is why I think it went from fiveto 10 million is because I think
that there's other farmerscoming out saying there me too.
I, that's me.
And so now that's how I thinkthat number.

(53:15):
Getting everyone's informationand everything right, because
they're like, oh wait, you two?
Oh yeah, I, and so that numberhas doubled

Stephanie (53:22):
and it's tough to get people to quantify it.
'cause they can be like, yes,and there's no yes my hay or my
grass or whatever.
But it's you have to find a

Dani (53:29):
and this is literally like, they didn't even have
excelling.
They're literally, it's justword of there's no, nobody is
Facebooking and TikTok andhaving.
Right.
A viral moment, right?
Yeah.
They're literally talking tofarmers and calling other.
Mm-hmm.
six Roundups by then had killedup to 65,000 rabbits.

(53:54):
US Fish and Wildlife Servicebiologists, Eric Peacock, said
the bait set around Benson'sRavage Hay Act could have killed
as many as 6,000 rabbits.
He's talking about the strictmind.
Mm-hmm.
And Benson, was going to burythe corpses under dirt and snow
until the ground thawed.

(54:15):
He said the test proved strictnine worked and that he planned
to set out more bait that nightcan be managed.
He said, we know what we'redoing.
I'd rather do this than try toget 500 guys together in a
rabbit drive.
I'll say the poison, the ease.
For the farmer.
Right.
And

Stephanie (54:35):
less, but I just don't, when you look at the
reality of it, of the poisonbeing slower, more painful, I
don't love the like party aspectof it that I'm sure comes up.
I mean, when you get any groupof people rallied together for

(54:56):
any cause it can get outta hand.
Yeah.
And so it's not pretty.
The and, and there are peoplethere that would just love to
inflict pain, but

Dani (55:08):
there to get, we all know they're

Stephanie (55:09):
sick fucks.
Have you listened

Dani (55:10):
to our podcast?
Yes, they are out

Stephanie (55:12):
there, but I feel like most of this, if you have a
town of 200 and you got 500people to come, I don't think
everyone there is.
Just wanting to hurt an animal.
I think that they want to cometogether for someone and this is
the solution that they've hadbecause no one else is coming to
save you.

(55:33):
Mm-hmm.
And if, if this is yourlifeline, they're like, yeah,
it's tough, but we gotta get getit done.
And there's gonna always bethose fucking weirdos.
There's no way to stop that.

Dani (55:44):
We all know there's those fucking weirdos, members of the
Port n Valley Audubon Society.
An FWS Endangered speciesspecialist, Richard Howard, were
upset that hundreds of rabbitshad been picked up before the
observers arrived after thepoisoning.

(56:06):
It's a hell of a test, said JayAnderson, a biology professor at
Idaho State University, arguingthat accurate counts were needed
to confirm.
An FWS study indicating 80 to90% of the rabbits would die
within 25 feet of the bait.
They're thinking

Stephanie (56:24):
about the the like, what are the rippling effects on
the whole ecosystem?

Dani (56:31):
The Audubon Society wanted a 95% kill rate to protect at
least 60 endangered bald eaglesin the area.
So what they're looking at isthey want these.
These rabbits to die in veryshort order.

Stephanie (56:48):
Mm-hmm.

Dani (56:49):
So that they can be collected.
They don't want these rabbits

Stephanie (56:53):
running, running out into, into the desert.

Dani (56:56):
Yeah.
Where a bald eagle can come downand eat it and die.
Yeah.
Fair.
But they were so, he's pissedoff because they're like, why
are you, let me come study this.
Why are you picking up therabbits?
I wanna see where they're dying.
Like how far is this going?
If they're dying within 25 feet,they can be collected from these

(57:18):
easily.
Yeah.
And these are huge haystacks.
They're not, they're not six by10 haystacks.
Mm-hmm.
They are huge haystacks, butthey wanna go around and just
observe what is happening tomake it a real study.
Mm-hmm.
Rodent District Secretary BrianFinnegan said the test showed
beta alfalfa was the mosteffective method, and that fewer

(57:42):
than 10% of the rabbits hadmanaged to escape farther than
90 yards from the hay.
But that's still a big 90 yards.
Is that's a, that's a footballfilm almost.
Yeah, it's far and depending onyour ground, depending on the
land.
Like if it's just straightdesert, yeah, maybe you can go
gather.

(58:02):
You could easily

Stephanie (58:02):
see and gather and get a group together.
But if hills and mountains andpremises and also

Dani (58:08):
there's some kinda lava rock formations out there.
Lot of that.
So they don't wanna leave thoseout there.
Like you gotta, if you're gonnause this poison, you gotta be
responsible and you gotta gopick it up.

Stephanie (58:20):
Yeah.

Dani (58:22):
Irvin t Twitchell said that he and his neighbors had
known two years earlier that thejackrabbits would be a serious
problem.
That winter.
They'd seen some type of trend,and he urged long range research
into cyclical rabbit problemsrather than stop gap measures
every decade.

(58:42):
And this is an old farmer, likehe's been doing this for a lot
of years and he's like, I'veseen this before.
And know probably in the fortieswe're into it again.
In the sixties it's happened.
It, they're not making it.
There's not the media.
It isn't new.
We're not

Stephanie (58:58):
rewriting history.
History, but he's like,

Dani (59:00):
history repeats itself and it's repeating and he's like,
Hey, I would love to seelong-term research on this, on
why this is happening versusjust.

Stephanie (59:10):
Because if there's years and years and years where
this doesn't happen, what, howcan we maybe help facilitate
this not happening?
So we don't have to argue aboutis it better to shoot?
Is it better to beat?
Is it better to poison?
Is it better to,

Dani (59:25):
and I will say shooting is probably financial.
First of all, un

Stephanie (59:29):
undoable.

Dani (59:30):
It's

Stephanie (59:31):
financially

Dani (59:31):
not feasible.
And also, and how good of

Stephanie (59:33):
shots are people?
Everyone wants to think they'rea good shot.
This is a smaller animal.

Dani (59:39):
It's a

Stephanie (59:39):
small animal.
Really real.
How much ammunition is it gonnatake?
If everyone was a perfect shotand you, and you want a kill
shot, 15,000, you don't wannashoot him in the in the gut.
If everyone was a perfect shot,65,000 I think we're up to or
something.
Yeah.
If in today's money, let's justsay a dollar bullet for a cheap
bullet, a dollar a bullet,$65,000, if everyone is a

(01:00:04):
perfect shot, yeah.

Dani (01:00:08):
Twitchel and other farm leaders met with Governor John
Evans telling him about the$10million in damage to crops and
haystacks.

Stephanie (01:00:17):
Okay.

Dani (01:00:17):
He said Solutions might be chemical, mechanical, or even
electrical.
But they must be anenvironmentally safe approach.
In the past, concern had onlyrisen when the problem became
bad, when the research wouldstart, then.
It give water interest wouldfade as the population dies
down.

(01:00:38):
So it's like, it's like a do ordie on this.
It's like, oh my God, this is aproblem.
And then everybody get involvedand then, and, and then it's
fine.
And then there's no support.
You're gonna see what happens.
It's, it really is, justremember the cyclical,

Stephanie (01:00:52):
like the guy said, we've seen it before.

Dani (01:00:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
on January 15th, Boise attorneyBill Mock said he would file
suit against the Mud Lake FarmerRabbit Committee on the
following Monday unless anagreement was reached
representing the Fund forAnimals and nine Idahoans.
He said he would seek atemporary restraining order to

(01:01:15):
stop the weekly drives, which isclients considered inhumane and
objected to for allowingchildren to participate.
Fair.

Stephanie (01:01:24):
They do have a point there because I don't love that.
I don't, I don't think that'sokay.
No, I don't.
It's not a, it's not a funfamily activity.
I would invite, you're not goingto the fair kid or grandchild to
at all.

Dani (01:01:39):
mock, said quote, we're not attempting to frustrate the
legitimate interest of thefarmers to deal with a severe
problem and protect themselvesfrom crop loss.
He also said that his clientsultimately proposed killing
animals Humanely.
He declined to identify the nineIdahoans saying their names
would appear in the, in the suitto be filed in the Seventh

(01:02:02):
Judicial District in IdahoFalls, naming the Rabbit
Committee and Jefferson Countyas defendants Mark's clients
proposed herding rabbit.
Into an enclosure and killingthem by carbon monoxide, gas
lethal injection, or a captivebolt system.
I just have to say captive

Stephanie (01:02:24):
bolt system like they do with cattle, doing it with
20,000 rabbits.
The precision needed with,listen, this is how they do it
at dairies.
I just know because my dadworked at a, or not a dairy, but
how they, a meat processingfacility.
Yes.
Thank you.
They basically a cattle, a cowwalks in, a bolt, goes through

(01:02:48):
their brain.
It should humanely and quicklykill them.
Sometimes it does not.
For that reason, there are menon that are raised up on
walkways with shot or guns.
I don't know what type of gun itis.
Probably not a shotgun.
Probably a like a rifle.
Yeah.
because sometimes it, they don'thit it quite right and it causes

(01:03:11):
them to go into a panic andobviously, and then they have to
shoot it.
Doing that with rabbits 20,000with a

Dani (01:03:20):
little three inch head.
Maybe four inches.

Stephanie (01:03:23):
That is not realistic.
No, I'm so sorry.

Dani (01:03:25):
That's what I was like, you heard that in my voice?
a captive bolt says

Stephanie (01:03:29):
no.
Come to us with some real ideasand listen, I'm open.
Like I said, I'm open.
There's things I don't know shitabout.
Fuck.
When it comes to humanely, likehaving to cull thousands of
animals, it's a shitty, it's,it's shitty no matter what way,
what way you look at it,

Dani (01:03:46):
it is.

Stephanie (01:03:48):
But that is not realistic.
No.
The bolt system that is forinjection, we're gonna give them
individually, like the put downmedication that, that you give
your dog.

Dani (01:03:59):
Are we gonna round the stress?
It

Stephanie (01:04:02):
has to be intravenous, doesn't

Dani (01:04:03):
it?
The, the put down medication,well, they said monoxide, uh,
the carbon monoxide data that Icould

Stephanie (01:04:10):
see.
'cause you can put a bunch ofanimals into a large container
that's airtight.
I don't love it still.
It's like gassing fuckinganimals.
But if it, if it, if they justgo to sleep, I don't know how
that is, but

Dani (01:04:26):
not knowledgeable enough to know how, and I'm not saying
clubbing.
The animals is, look, I want youto think about finding some mice
in your pantry.
Mm-hmm.
Um.

(01:04:46):
How do you handle that?
How do you handle that?
Where they're literally gettinginto your kids'?
They, they chew through yourcereal, your kid's cereal that
immediately has to go in thetrash.
Mm-hmm.
So just think about stacks ofhay that can hurt you.
Yeah, you can, uh, I can'tremember what mice carry, but

(01:05:07):
it's bad.
What is it?

Stephanie (01:05:11):
Male species is not good.

Dani (01:05:13):
No.
But they carry something that'smm-hmm.
Super bad for humans.
You don't.
And anani, your domesticanimals, your dogs, your cats,
you don't want them messing withmy shit.
Um, how do you handle that?
Are you, are you putting a, alive trap and then gonna go
stick a trap?
Are you gonna go let them go inthe backyard?

(01:05:35):
I just, if you let them go inthe backyard, they're going,
that's where they, they'recoming from.
They're came back.
and then the sticky trap, Ipersonally, I'm gonna say it, I
think the sticky trap is themost inhumane way.
Yes.
To catch a mouse.

Stephanie (01:05:50):
However, I will say this is literally the worst time
for flies in our area.
I do have a sticky fly trap,which is.
Arguably the same thing, but nowwe're talking about a fly.
So it's, it's, this whole thingis one of those things of where,

(01:06:12):
where's your line?
And I don't have a defined line,but it's there.
There are things you have toconsider on all sides.
I do agree.

Dani (01:06:25):
I don't consider.
I'm just saying that.
I don't want flies in my houseshitting on my piece of bread or
no.
And bothering you in your sleepand like, no, nevermind.
They're just annoying ingeneral, but also they're
disgusting.

(01:06:46):
So what's the line there?
But I do think sticky traps, ew,for mice don't like

Stephanie (01:06:51):
it.

Dani (01:06:53):
They're alive, literally trying to put anyways
struggling, blah.
No, I.
Am a trap girl.
I will not put those.
I've never used a sticky trap.
I want the fucking whack.
You're dead.
That's, that's, that's my Jeff.
And that feels

Stephanie (01:07:10):
more humane than the other alternatives.
None of it is feel good.
No, there's nothing where you'relike, stuff, did I tell you

Dani (01:07:18):
that I had a mouse in my garage and Jared made me feel
really bad about it because?
I got to my garage and had mycoffee and my cigarette in the
morning.
Mm-hmm.
And this little mouse waspopping out, looking at me,
wasn't scared of me.
And they're fucking

Stephanie (01:07:37):
cute.
Mice are cute.
I don't think it's subjective.
I think they're just fuckingcute.

Dani (01:07:43):
But they also are destructive

Stephanie (01:07:45):
and

Dani (01:07:46):
gross.
Normal supply.
Yeah.
The Soto Mouse.
I set the trap when I went tobed.

Stephanie (01:07:57):
Mm-hmm.

Dani (01:07:58):
I'm like, okay, I'm gonna catch this mouse whack.
Done.
Sorry about your luck.
Shouldn't come into the garage.
but he waited till I was havingmy morning coffee and cigarette,
and then were there.
He looked at me and then I heardquack.
And so Jerry was like, he justwanted to say hello to you, Ava.
Jeremy made me feel so fuckingbad about that matter.

(01:08:20):
He was goodbye to

Stephanie (01:08:20):
you.

Dani (01:08:22):
Ah, anyway, If an agreement could be reached or
ordered by the court, he said.
The methods would be worthwhileexperiments for farmers
statewide.
The fund was willing tocontribute money for humane
elimination, and he said thatthe state and county should also
contribute.

(01:08:43):
The drives had createdconsiderable tension between
farmers and opponents ofclubbing.
Quote.
We're willing to meet with themand work out agreeable solutions
if they're willing

Stephanie (01:08:53):
to meet with us.
Mock said.
And I like that because I doagree that the state and county
should be involved because thisis affecting your GDP, for your
county and like this isaffecting.
So can we get a little help, Alittle diet?
Did we have

Dani (01:09:08):
mosquito abatement?
Yeah.
You know all that shit.
Eradication.
Thank you.
Abatement.
Yeah.
Like, we spray for mosquitoeshere.
Mm-hmm.
So, yeah.
It, it is, especially on thislevel, it's not because you have
a dirty farm that you're gettingthese, you know, jackrabbits

(01:09:29):
coming.
Yeah.

Stephanie (01:09:29):
There's, you cannot help it.
No, no.
And like the guy said, that'sbeen doing this since the 19
eighteens or whatever, every fewdecades or decade it happens.
Mm-hmm.
And when it does, it'sdestructive.
And this is, the livelihood ofthe people that live in your
county and are bringing in moneyand are participating in the

(01:09:52):
economy.

Dani (01:09:54):
Farm Bureau public Affairs director John Hatch, called the
meeting meaningless quote.
They've not given us any reasonto deal with them.
They're opposed to what we aredoing and any willingness on our
part to compromise would be amoral victory for them.

(01:10:14):
Owen said he had recommendedlegal action.
In my opinion, the method thatwas being used was cruel,
inhumane, and in violation ofstatutory laws in the state of
Idaho.
But farmers and the farm bureaucontended that clubbing was
legal on January 17th.

(01:10:37):
About 600 Idaho farmers andpeople from four other states
joined the drives killinganother 12,000 rabbits.
Near how 30 miles southwest ofMud Lake, about a hundred
farmers killed a thousandrabbits.
Two other how area driveskilled.

(01:10:57):
6,000 more around Mud Lake.
About 500 farmers in thesubfreezing temperatures herded
the jack rabbits, and two, afunnel shape trapped and clubbed
them to death, bringing the daystotal there to about 11,000.
So

Stephanie (01:11:13):
a complete massacre.
I can't even picture 11,000 ofanything.
Well, and that's, if that's whatyou were able to capture and
kill, how many total were therein reality?
Yeah.
Can

Dani (01:11:26):
I can't imagine 11,000 of anything.
No.
Okay.
More drives were planned forJanuary 23rd with as many as six
additional roundups.
Before spring, if the weatherstayed mild, animal protection
groups continued to protestclubbing as inhumane.
The how.
Farmers had not announcedprevious drives to avoid

(01:11:49):
attention.
They were, they were tryinglike, let us just take care of
our business.
I really do feel that way.
Mm-hmm.
Like, we're not trying to be inthe media.
We're just trying to savemillions of dollars in the, Hey,
they, it's a big deal.

Stephanie (01:12:05):
And this has been an issue in the past.
It's not like we're doing thisevery year.
It's just when the populationexplodes exponentially and
what's, what's the solutioncreate a meaningful'cause.
I'm sure that even in the badyears, they probably had rabbits
and they, they're just able tomake that as a cost of, yeah.
You know that cost of doingbusiness, I'm gonna lose 3%.

Dani (01:12:28):
Yeah, I'm gonna lose Tim 10.
10 is a lot though.
That is a lot.
Farmers in Minidoka, Casha,Bingham and Jerome counties were
considering drives and evenranchers in Northern Nevada had
inquired as well.
Said, listen up.
Uh, same, same.
Oh, we got same crime.

(01:12:49):
If

Stephanie (01:12:49):
this is, and if you look at the square miles of like
southeastern Idaho and NorthernNevada, if this is clearly a
huge problem that is spanningthousands of miles, I mean
hundreds, I don't know.
Hundreds of miles at least.

Dani (01:13:09):
At least.
Just trying to, I know moremiles into Oregon, so.
Oh yeah, Reno probably.
I could Google it, but I'm notsquare

Stephanie (01:13:20):
miles,

Dani (01:13:21):
but I'm just thinking like traveling.
So I think Oregon, like Portlandfrom here is like 400 miles.
Very Nevada.
So for square miles?
Yeah.
Yeah, huge.
On January 19th, an attorney foranimal protection groups asked
the seventh district JudgeWillard c Burton, for an order

(01:13:42):
to stop for the drives.
But Burton said he would notissue it without first giving
farmers a chance to appear andgive their side.
'cause that's fair.
Yeah.
He set a hearing to consider arestraining order request
submitted by the Fund forAnimals and the Animal
Protection Society.

(01:14:03):
So 10 drives have been held infive weeks.
Most in the Mud Lakemont viewarea.
And Western Jefferson County,plus three smaller drives at how
farmers now estimated they hadslaughtered 75 to 80,000 jack

(01:14:24):
rabbits.

Stephanie (01:14:24):
And just if there's that many is insane to me.

Dani (01:14:30):
On February 1st, the two groups are in court for the
requested temporary injunction.
The number of rabbits killed hadnearly reached 114,000 at this
point.
Damn, judge Burton heard bothsides and wait if he should
block the drives until a trialor just allow the farmers to

(01:14:50):
continue before spring breedingmultiplied the population.
But he's quick.

Stephanie (01:14:59):
Mm-hmm.

Dani (01:15:00):
On February 5th, Burton ruled that Eastern Idaho farmers
had a legal right to round upand kill jack rabbits to protect
crops, but he imposed courtordered guidelines.

Stephanie (01:15:13):
Okay.

Dani (01:15:15):
I feel like this is fair.
Fair.

Stephanie (01:15:17):
And there needs to be some guidelines.
Yeah.
I feel like,'cause I don't thinkthere was.

Dani (01:15:22):
He said farmers had not violated state anti cruelty laws
during the nine winter drivesthat resulted in clubbing more
than a hundred thousand rabbits.
However, he barred youngchildren from future roundups.
I agree with that.
And prohibited bunny baseball.
What?

(01:15:43):
Where participants tossed liverabbits for others to strike
midair.
Disgusting.
This is

Stephanie (01:15:51):
insane that a judge has to be like, listen guys, and
that's, that's another reasonwhy animal groups had more
footing, because things aregetting wild, things are
escalating well, and people are,yes, it might be more humane
than a sticky trap or a poison.

(01:16:11):
But when you're like using it toget joy and making sport of it,
that's a, that's still adifferent thing.
So I'm glad that he addressedthis because

Dani (01:16:19):
back to the beginning of the story, when he was, when I
said there was kids karate,chopping and punching rabbits.
Yes.
What is that?
No, like take your heavy item,dad.
Get the

Stephanie (01:16:30):
children out of there.

Dani (01:16:33):
Quote, the evidence finds that any of the killing and
cruelty that may have beenexhibited in eliminating these
rabbits was done with honestintent to protect their property
and was done under the authorityof law and under the
authorization of JeffersonCounty Commission Burn.

(01:16:54):
Said, I cannot stop it.
What I'm hearing, they'rerodents.
That's how the court is viewingthem.
They're viewing them as mice, asrats, as gophers, and even,

Stephanie (01:17:11):
even if they weren't viewed that way, if you have a
hundred of

Dani (01:17:15):
grasshoppers,

Stephanie (01:17:17):
they're, we have a hundred grasshoppers in your
backyard.
That's going to be verynoticeable.
Yeah.
A hundred mice in your home.
Nightmare.

Dani (01:17:29):
Two pack rats in your cabin.

Stephanie (01:17:31):
Yeah.
Truly.
And so it's, I I get thetouchiness of it, but I'm so,
like the numbers were, I can't,if they were able to kill this
many, if rabbits are wiley andquick and fast, and so there's
Robert's escaping.

(01:17:51):
How many fucking were there?
Like,

Dani (01:17:55):
not to mention the jackalopes,

Stephanie (01:17:58):
no one's talking about the jackalopes and we need
to really look into that.

Dani (01:18:02):
Anyway, the judge denied the motion to stop the drives,
but granted two fund requests.

Stephanie (01:18:09):
Okay.

Dani (01:18:10):
No children under 16 on the drive.
Thank you.
Yeah.
And police intervention to stopany incidents of bunny baseball.

Stephanie (01:18:17):
I'd still prefer 18 or honestly'cause the frontal
lobe.
Listen, 18 minimum if you can gofight for our country.
Sure.
Yeah, I get it.

Dani (01:18:27):
I'd like to remind you that it's 81.
but also, I mean, when we wereon the, when it's your life

Stephanie (01:18:36):
Yeah.

Dani (01:18:38):
Literally you need some young boys and said.
My son is not coming in toschool this morning.
He's gonna be late because thecows are out.
And you know what?
I got the response.
Yeah, get it, Mr.
Blah, blah, blah.
Saw you guys running around inthe field trying to round him

(01:18:58):
up.
It's a different environment.
Yes.
And so they already knew he wasgonna be late because his music
teacher fucking saw him, saw usall out there.
He's like trying to round up thecows that it got out.
So it's a different mindset.
But anyway, I.
Or Twitchell hailed the rulingas a victory for farmers trying

(01:19:20):
to save haystacks.
Quote.
We tried to restrain the kidsand keep them out of the killing
pin, and we don't like thisbunny baseball anymore than
anyone else.

Stephanie (01:19:30):
I'm sure it was a few outliers that

Dani (01:19:32):
Yeah,

Stephanie (01:19:33):
if you saw it, you'd be like, it's shock when you see
something shocking.
You're like, don't do that.

Dani (01:19:38):
Yeah.
But he added that farmers wouldproceed with the 10th drive the
following weekend, like we'regoing for it because they have,
they have

Stephanie (01:19:47):
to.

Dani (01:19:48):
Yeah.
Farmers wanted to begin usingzinc phosphide and end weekly
drives, but they were stillwaiting on government approval
for use on alfalfa.
The US Fish and Wildlife Servicehad found zinc fides safe and
effective, and released for.
Release it for use on carrots.

(01:20:10):
I don't know why.
I don't know why they hoped itwould be, released for alfalfa
within seven to 10 days.
This did not happen.
Carcasses of poison rabbitscould not be used for mink fiend
as club bodies.
Mm-hmm.
Had been, but poison could helpmanage a problem across a wider

(01:20:30):
area.

Stephanie (01:20:35):
So if they poison'em, they could do it more
effectively and efficiently.
Right.
Okay.

Dani (01:20:40):
But then they were just, then there's no benefit.
Complete waste.
Yeah, complete waste.
By 1983, residents were askingwhat happened to the hordes of
rabbits that had ruinedhaystacks the previous winter?
No one knew.
Quote, when we had about a footof snow on the ground last
December, we had calls fromthree farmers west of Blackfoot.

(01:21:04):
Since the snow has melted, Ihaven't gotten any calls, said
Bingham County AgriculturalExtension Agent Brian Finnegan.
This is just the next winterseason, right?
No drama.
Back at the Joe Hartwell Ranch.
Jackrabbits had circled fencehay stacks in December, but

(01:21:25):
retreated to the desert withoutmajor damage.
Quote, last year, whole patchesof heartwell pasture looked like
they had been carefullycultivated.
There wasn't a blade of grassleft in some areas

Stephanie (01:21:41):
damn

Dani (01:21:42):
mild weather and a bumper crop of desert shrubs and
grasses appeared to have reducedthe population.
Okay, Finnegan estimated.
An 80 to 90% drop in BinghamCounty.
Quote.
You could look at the tracks andthe size of the desert trails.
There just weren't as manyrabbits there.

Stephanie (01:22:05):
I really do think, yeah, we're looking at like a
swarm versus like a small pack.
I think

Dani (01:22:13):
it's like, uh.
You see, um, a low fish count?
Yeah.
Or you see it's sick.
It depends on the weather

Stephanie (01:22:22):
and there's so many factors that go into it.
Mm-hmm.
So basically they had theperfect storm of breeding
explosion.
Mm-hmm.
And optimum feed.
And for, for this all to happenoptimum feed

Dani (01:22:37):
at haystacks.
Yeah.
So there still might be thatmany out there, but they're not.
There's sufficient desert foodfor them that they don't have to
go searching.
Mm-hmm.
It's just hundred percent aweird fucking thing.
If you think about how thatslice of just maybe the weather,

(01:22:58):
a

Stephanie (01:22:58):
temperature being, yeah, the weather wasn't there.
The

Dani (01:23:01):
moisture wasn wasn't there, so they had to go search
for food and guess what wasthere

Stephanie (01:23:07):
a fuck load of food.
Yeah.
And they're like.
We don't even have to try it.
This is amazing.
Ah, this is great.
Let's fuck about it.
It's a buffet.
Let's fuck about it and makelots of babies

Dani (01:23:19):
drives and strict nine poisoning.
Might or might have notsignificantly.
Affected overall numbers.
Disease was the most widelyaccepted explanation for
crashes.
After population explosions,farmers reported eagles and
coyotes helped thin out thecolonies.

(01:23:42):
Quote, we did have quite a feweagles, Finnegan said, but it
would take a lot more of them tokill thousands of rabbits,

Stephanie (01:23:50):
right.

Dani (01:23:53):
Tom Murray, who was involved in rabbit control
efforts from 1918 to 1936 oldschool said there was nobody who
would raise up their hands andstop these people from
protecting their property.
Those people haven't got anychoice.

(01:24:14):
They've got to kill rabbitsafter a visit to Idaho Falls.
He believed poor survival amongnewborn rabbits had driven the
decline.

Stephanie (01:24:26):
And disease is more effective than any poison or
clubbing or drive.
That if there was disease, andmaybe that's something that had
happened in the previous.
Decades where all of a suddenthey, well, this is an old
school

Dani (01:24:41):
farmer.
Yeah.
Like he wa he's, he's seen this.
It's repeat

Stephanie (01:24:45):
history repeats.
Yeah.

Dani (01:24:47):
And I bet you in 1918 they were doing roundups.

Stephanie (01:24:52):
Yeah.
But the press wasn't in on itthen.

Dani (01:24:55):
Yeah.
They're like, no, you gottaprotect your crops.
in communities north and east ofMud Lake.
Residents hope the trend wouldcontinue.
Irvin Twitchell was not eager toresume them or the publicity
that followed.
No shit.
Quote.
That's a lot of work he said.
I worked consistently lastwinter and I never made a penny.

(01:25:18):
In fact, I lost 150,000 in cropsto the rabbits.
This is an 81.
I'd be fucking sick.
Yeah, he did not blame the newsmedia for the rabbits.
But held, but held them ingroups like the Fun for animals,
responsible for the emotionalresponse to the drives.

Stephanie (01:25:41):
Mm-hmm.

Dani (01:25:42):
Twitchell said that he would've liked to see more
rabbits put to use, but stillbelieve the drives were
necessary and effective inreducing losses.
And I think he's talked, I agreewith that.
Yeah.
He's talking about using themfor food.

Stephanie (01:25:54):
so it's not a complete waste.
Right.
A hundred percent.

Dani (01:25:58):
When you take 250,000 breeders out of the area, you
know you've done something.
No way about it.
It just had to help.
And by the spring of 1983, therabbits were gone.
Not rounded up, not poisoned,just gone.
Some said it was disease.

(01:26:19):
Other blamed the weather.
Maybe the coyotes and eaglesfinally caught up, For whatever
reason, the problem that oncebrought hundreds of farmers
together was sticks in hand,vanished almost as fast as it
came,

Stephanie (01:26:34):
right?
And so I feel like that.
It's like when you get, we'veheard about this in history, the
locust being terrible anddestroying crops and this and
that, the dust bowl.
And if you, if you can, if youhave something to help fix it
and who, who's to say, I don'tknow what would've happened if

(01:26:54):
they did nothing.
I don't think the populationwould've decreased.
So suddenly they're talking,taking a hundred thousand
rabbits off the fucking map.
There was an impact, even if adisease or something, which can
be very widespread.

Dani (01:27:11):
And let me just say, what if they were diseased rabbits?
Let's just, what if they werediseased rabbits that were
killing cattle?

Stephanie (01:27:19):
Diseasing your pets and And stock.

Dani (01:27:22):
Yeah.

Stephanie (01:27:24):
Yeah.
No one.
So I think like we've touched onthis is.
No one likes this type of shit.
This was clearly brutal.
And there was bad actors thatwere being way too fucking over
the top with it.
There's gonna be that in everygroup.
Not acceptable, but again, ifyou you, you won't do a sticky

(01:27:48):
trap for a mouse, and I wouldn'teither, but I do a sticky trap
for a fly.
I've done it.
Yeah, so it's.
If it's your property and youhave thousands or tens of
thousands of a certain animal,

Dani (01:28:04):
I would do you do, just like people.
The how would you handle, if youhad six mice in your pantry,
what would you do that isruining your shit?
Possibly could make you ill.
I don't like, I, I'm gonna sayright now, the bunny, the bunny
baseball don't.

Stephanie (01:28:26):
Yes.
And even just hitting them andinitially I was like, why are we
hitting them?
be like, that seems so brutaland cave manish.
But when you can, when you trulyconsider the alternatives, which
is poison, and they were open todifferent things.

(01:28:46):
They tried feasibility.
If you're will, if you're doinga feasibility study.
That means that you are welcometo informing all people who are
affected or stakeholders.
What's the effect if we do itthis way, to really truly see,
can we do it?
Or if, if, or when we do it,what all do we need to consider?

(01:29:09):
'cause I know I wanna considerfrom my point of view, but we
need to have all the points ofviews that they didn't even know
where they're putting it publicor private.
That's a red flag.

Dani (01:29:23):
And the, I think poison is way worse than getting, it
sounds like

Stephanie (01:29:27):
it.
I don't wanna be arched backfucking seing.
I don't know.
In pain,

Dani (01:29:32):
it's hard.
This has just been a very, ifyou

Stephanie (01:29:34):
can get me in a one swing,

Dani (01:29:36):
do it.
Yep.

Stephanie (01:29:37):
That's my opinion.

Dani (01:29:40):
And it's just been.
But there's also, there was alsosome cruel, like just being, no,
there was asshole.
There was assholes out there.

Stephanie (01:29:48):
And that's, listen,

Dani (01:29:50):
that's gonna happen at

Stephanie (01:29:51):
anything.
I think that we could all expectthat it doesn't mean it's okay
or good and do keep the kids outof it.
Bringing a 5-year-old to clubthe fucking.
Bunnies.
Yeah.
That no, no.
That shouldn't have ever beenhappening in the first place.
Get the, get the kids out.

Dani (01:30:08):
Yeah.

Stephanie (01:30:10):
But Danny, God damn, another Idaho piece of culture,
you'll, y'all wanna know whatcultures around.
This is another piece of it.
interesting and very relevant Ithink.

Dani (01:30:24):
And it's very, I think finding a balance.
It is finding a balance.
And so, any feedback,

Stephanie (01:30:31):
throw it at us.
Yeah.
How do you guys feel about this?
We're not scared.

Dani (01:30:33):
I would love to hear some deep thoughts about this,
because if you've ever had arodent problem and I'm not
talking about my house, mycabin, large rodent problem.
I would say probably those packrats are very similar to.

Stephanie (01:30:49):
Yeah, those

Dani (01:30:49):
jackrabbits.
what do you do?
How, how much sympathy do youhave for something destroying
your personal stuff, whetherit's a huge commodity, like
millions and dollars,

Stephanie (01:31:07):
the feces.

Dani (01:31:08):
Oh, so gross

Stephanie (01:31:09):
disease.

Dani (01:31:10):
I have literally went up to my cabin and had this pack
rat shit on my kitchen table.
And

Stephanie (01:31:16):
you're like,

Dani (01:31:18):
ah, if you stay outside, I will not bother you, but don't
come shitting on my table.
Don't eat my sugar.
Like, oh, they love that sugar.
Mm-hmm.
Crackheads.
but what is the, the level ofcompassion?
'cause I do look, I wanna becompassionate to animals.
Yes.
Uh.
Uh, compassion, but also realityand also protecting your family,

(01:31:43):
your livelihood, whatever it is.
So, I don't know, but we'd loveyour feedback on it.
Let's talk about it.
and thank you for listening.

Stephanie (01:31:52):
Yeah.
Once again, a hundred percent.
Love you guys.

Dani (01:32:17):
This podcast brought to you by that barking
motherfucker.
Harry,