42. Hate Crime Horror: The Brutal Assault at Lake Lowell

In this episode of The Lethal Library, Dani and Stephanie look into a chilling case that rocked Idaho in 2016. Steven Nelson, a man simply looking for companionship, faced a brutal and fatal attack near Lake Lowell. Join us as we unravel the details of this heinous crime, the shocking aftermath, and the infuriating shortcomings in Idaho's hate crime legislation. Along the way, we sprinkle in our dark humor and blunt commentary about the sheer stupidity of these criminals. Whether you're here for the true crime plot or our cheeky banter, we guarantee this episode is one for the books.

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Episode Transcript

Dani (00:00):
on a quiet night near Lake Lowell.
In 2016, a man answered anonline ad for a date and drove
out to Gott's point.
What happened next was a setupso violent that investigators
said it shocked even veterandetectives.
And by morning Steven Nelson wasdead and four men were in

(00:20):
custody.
Sources used in today's episodeare the articles from the Idaho
Statesman, KTVB, KIVI, andWikipedia.

Stephanie (01:04):
Alright, well welcome back everyone to the Lethal
Library.
Glad to see you back this week.
spooky season.
Some might say it's over, somemight say it's still going.
We're open to whateverinterpretation you may have.
We love spooky season, so youcan keep it going through
Valentine's Day if you like.

(01:24):
I do.
You do you, you, do you?
I'm planning on probably doingthat for my work set up, my work
Halloween set up because whynot?
It's fun.

Dani (01:33):
Yeah, I don't know.
Mine's a little overwhelming, alittle, a lot of color.
I'm mm-hmm.
Mine's coming down.
Okay.

Stephanie (01:38):
Mine's

Dani (01:38):
coming down.

Stephanie (01:39):
Can't do it.
That's all right.
But, all I gotta say is I had ablast this Halloween season.
at work we do a big thing forthe kids, so does Danny's work.
And it's just, it's a lot fun.

Dani (01:51):
And I dressed up scary and scare children last night, which
is my favorite thing.
Who

Stephanie (01:55):
doesn't like to scare some children?
So, I have to, they gotta workfor the candy.
They gotta work for it.

Dani (02:02):
yeah.
And I was grateful that mysister was here to actually hand
out the candy because that's notmy jam.
I'm too busy.
scaring, scaring and playingwith my animatronics and mm-hmm.

Stephanie (02:13):
Yeah.
It's freaking people out.
It's my fve.
So yeah.
Cheers to spooky season.
Hope yours was amazing.
we're back for yet anotherepisode based in Idaho, and it's
one that I definitely remember.
That this was a big story.
This is really close to home.
Pretty recent.
This was 2016.

(02:35):
it's so much so that when Dannywas saying the intro, I was
almost like, did we cover this?
'cause I just remember some ofthe details from it, which I, I
am not that girl that remembersthe details of every case I've
ever listened to, or it'shorrible.

Dani (02:48):
It's horrible.

Stephanie (02:49):
Yeah, so I am, I'm just really intrigued to know
the ins and outs of whathappened and I'm, I'm glad that
you're covering this one.

Dani (02:57):
Yeah, it um, it's very sad.

Stephanie (03:02):
You said it was gonna make me mad as well.
Yeah.
So, well, you're just

Dani (03:05):
gonna be pissed, so you ready to get into it?
I'm ready to get into it.
Let's go.
Steven Nelson was 49 years oldwhen he was assaulted and left
naked early on April 29th, 2016,near Gott's Point at Lake Lowell
in Nampa, Idaho.

(03:25):
He died later that day from hisinjuries.

Stephanie (03:29):
Mm

Dani (03:31):
four men were booked into the county jail.
22-year-old Kelly Schneider,21-year-old Kevin Tracy,
28-year-old Jason Woods, allfrom Nampa and 23-year-old
Daniel Hinkle of Caldwell.
I've also heard Wilder somewherein that yonder were they were

(03:55):
expected to be charged withfirst degree murder and robbery
investigators said Schneidercould also face a grand theft
charge.
MM deputies said the attackerstole Steven's car clothes and
other belongings before leavinghim severely injured.
The first call to lawenforcement came early that

(04:17):
morning from a home near Gott'spoint.
Residents had reported a nakedman walking around and knocking
on doors.

Stephanie (04:24):
Aw.

Dani (04:26):
A terrifying if you're a homeowner.
B.
Terrifying.
Actually a terrifying if you'rea man trying to find somebody to
help you.
B, for, I don't, I don't know ifI would open the door for a
naked man.
I, I don't know if

Stephanie (04:43):
I would, I may try to find some other, like calling
the cops, right?
Or calling another neighbor thatI felt could peek out, or I
guess it, I would, I'd make sureto at least give

Dani (04:54):
him a blanket.
At

Stephanie (04:55):
the door, something would toss it from a window or
something.
Yeah, something.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I don't, that would be ascary no.
As, and I think as women, youknow, probably you never'cause
listen, even a woman naked, ifthey have behavior that's acting
super erratically, it would giveme a little bit pause too.
However, I'd be more apt to openfor a woman or give just

(05:21):
statistically.
it tracks, but a naked man thatyou don't know on your door if
you were home alone as a woman

Dani (05:29):
and this man was bleeding,

Stephanie (05:31):
disoriented.
Yeah, bleeding.
You don't know what the hellhappened.
Yeah, no.

Dani (05:35):
Ah, I have a story.
Oh, about a naked neighbor, Somy son was little, in diapers,
so under two.
Mm-hmm.
For sure.
and we lived out in Middleton.
We had a couple acres out there.

Stephanie (05:53):
Yeah.

Dani (05:54):
and it was in the middle of the night and I had to change
a diaper and we had wentsomewhere that day.
I left the genius.
Diaper bag or I was outta wipesor something, I had to go to the
car.
Mm-hmm.
And it was like two o'clock inthe morning.
Love it.
Not a big deal.

Stephanie (06:10):
Regular.
Sure.
Right.

Dani (06:11):
Run out to the car, get my stuff, all of a sudden and we're
on acreage.
Mm-hmm.
All of a sudden I hear somebodycall my name.

Stephanie (06:23):
Oh my God.

Dani (06:26):
And I was like.
That can't be

Stephanie (06:29):
what I'm hearing.

Dani (06:30):
Right.
I was like, it was my neighborand she was crying and hiding
behind a tree.
I think it was in, it was Gott'sintervention that I was up.

Stephanie (06:47):
Right.
It, it just had to be you had togo to the car and go outside.

Dani (06:51):
Her husband.
Had beat her and kicked heroutta the house just in her
undies.

Stephanie (06:58):
I hear this type of shit so often from domestic.
It was so

Dani (07:02):
fucking sad.
Abusers sad.
I was crying.
She, why is that a thing?
She was crying and then I wascrying and Absolutely, I let her
in my house and I gave her someshorts and a shirt to put on.
Mm-hmm.
it wasn't cold.
Yeah.
I mean, cold to It was too coldto be naked outside.
Sure.
That's for damn sure.
I just feel though like.

(07:22):
I am so grateful.
I mean, I felt horrible for her,but I'm grateful that, that you
were there.
That I was, I'm grateful that Ineeded baby wipes in the middle
of the night.
Mm-hmm.
So that she could get somecomfort and warmth when she
called her.
And

Stephanie (07:36):
safety.
You never know what the hellsomeone's gonna do.
Oh, that's So, yes, I have

Dani (07:40):
opened the door, but I, I knew her.
But anyways, it's so sad and soscary.
Yeah.

Stephanie (07:47):
And I'm, that makes me so irritated because I feel
like I've heard that story fromnot only friends and
acquaintances, but other crimethings where I don't know the
person.
Why in the hell are thesedomestic abusers?
They wanna shut you outta yourown house naked.
It's so fucking sickening.
It's

Dani (08:05):
control

Stephanie (08:06):
and just what, how you can try to keep up the
facade of I care for a person ifyou're knocking them outta their
house naked

Dani (08:14):
and that asshole.
Really just thought she was justgonna sit outside and suffer.
Right.
All night, be cold or whatever.
Like, what are you gonna do?
Yeah.
Well, you know what, she had afucking neighbor that needed
butt wipes in the middle of thenight.
Yeah.
And so she didn't have to beg orplead to come back in that
house, which is that ultimatelywhat they want.
What they want.
Mm-hmm.
She didn't have to do that.

(08:35):
She was warm and able to callfamily.
I don't think she called thecops,

Stephanie (08:40):
but this was, that's, that's understandable.
'cause.
But you have to be so careful inthese, this is in like 94, 95,
so, and I think that most womenknow when it's gonna be more,
they have so much to weigh.
Mm-hmm.
So many different variables thatthey're weighing in their mind.
So, although most people belike, duh, call the cops.

(09:02):
No, because the cops often can'tdo much if they can't prove
anything.
Some states it's different.
Some states, they take bothparties to jail just as a like,
well, and

Dani (09:11):
this was nineties.
Yeah.
Like, you get'em, be like, wewere fighting and I told her to
get the fuck outta the house,and then I locked the door.
Fuck her.
And they're like, anyway,there's nothing.
Unless she had, you know.
Yeah.
So, and then in the meanwhile,he's fucking burning her shit in
a burn barrel or something.
Right?
Like, there's all these stupidthings to wave.
Right.
So you're right.
Not right.

(09:32):
I mean, it's not okay, but youhave to find that perfect window
of opportunity.
Yeah.
In that it's a plan thing.
And so a lot

Stephanie (09:38):
of people don't understand that.
I really hope that people willstart to understand it more and
when they're trying to helptheir friends or family try to
just support in which way youcan and encourage in which way
you can.

Dani (09:53):
because the most dangerous time for a woman is when they
leave.

Stephanie (09:56):
When they leave.
Yeah.
And so it has to be like.
You have to think of so manysteps in advance.
And so if you don't have thosesteps already planned out,
leaving at that point probablywould end a disaster and not
help you.
So let's just cheers to learningabout DV for us and our

(10:17):
audience.
'cause I didn't know this shit,you know?
Because everyone just thinks,why wouldn't you just leave?
Yeah.
Wouldn't you have the cops blowup the house?
And like it's truly not thatsimple and it doesn't work like
you think it works in the moviesof like, oh, now I call the cops
and he's in jail, and now I haveseveral months to get my life in
order.
No, he'll probably be out thenext morning, even if he does go

(10:38):
to jail and he'll be back atyour house

Dani (10:39):
and you can't make him and

Stephanie (10:41):
infuriated that you've embarrassed him.

Dani (10:44):
Oh yeah.
In front of the neighbors even.
Oh yeah, nevermind.
You called your mom.
Whatever, you know?
Mm-hmm.
So anyways.
Little side story for Yeah.
But I was like, oh my God, Iwas,

Stephanie (10:56):
you've had a naked

Dani (10:57):
person Yeah.
Asking for your help.
And I was just, I was grateful.

Stephanie (11:02):
Oh, I bet.
I felt so bad for her, and itgave her a little bit of power,
as you said.
'cause he wanted her to have to

Dani (11:09):
beg mm-hmm.
To come back inside and be like,Kevin's around, whatever.
Bullshit.
Yeah.
Those narcissists, and that's

Stephanie (11:15):
what they want is for you to have no one and nothing.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
That's, that's their ultimategoal.
So.
Fuck all those shit ass people.

Dani (11:26):
All right.
Back to the story.
Residence had reported a nakedman walking around and knocking
on doors.
When the deputies arrived, theyfound Steven.
He had told them that he hadbeen attacked and robbed.
He was taken to St.
Alfon Regional Medical Center inBoise, where he later died that

(11:49):
morning.
And about 10 30

Stephanie (11:52):
and St.
Al's is like a more specializedright hospital built for like
trauma.
That's why trauma, and that'swhy they take you to Boise.
You gotta go.
They do have a trauma ward anddeal with specialized cases.

Dani (12:02):
The ADA County coroner ruled his death a homicide
caused by cardiac arrest.

Stephanie (12:07):
Oh my

Dani (12:07):
God.
According to Canyon County,sheriff here and Donahue, what
happened to Mr.
Nelson was a heinous crimeDonahue said.
You know, Donahue was in,another story we just did.
Heinous, heinous, heinous,heinous.
Mm-hmm.
I think,

Stephanie (12:23):
but you know, it was a heinous crime.
They have been heinous.

Dani (12:26):
I mean, this, this, yeah, you're gonna get upset.
But before he died, Steven wasable to give the investigators a
detailed description of one ofthe men and had told them what
had happened before till leavingthere before his heart attack.
Thank God.

(12:47):
I don't know if these guyswould've got busted or not.
It'd be it.
'cause he was able to describewhat happened.
Mm-hmm.
He said he had been beaten,stripped and that his 2006 Chevy
Impala had been stolen aftermeeting what he thought was a
person for a rendezvous near thelake.

Stephanie (13:08):
Mm-hmm.

Dani (13:09):
So, uh, just for people that are not, familiar, Gott's
point, it's, we have LakeLowell.

Stephanie (13:16):
Yes.

Dani (13:16):
Here in, canyon County,

Stephanie (13:18):
very popular recreation, site for boating,
fishing.
There's a wildlife preserve onpart of it for endangered
species of birds, and you know,there's deer there.
It's, it's real.
Lake Lowell gets a bad rap, asdoes anything in Canyon County,
from people in Boise.
It is a

Ad (13:38):
reservoir.

Stephanie (13:39):
It, it is a manmade reservoir.
but I will say I grew up on LakeLowell and great memories from
there.
I don't know that I'd eat thefish from there just because
eating fish from anywhere alittle iffy, and it does get
algae when it gets really,really warm.

(13:59):
So if you're in the lake and thewater

Dani (14:00):
gets slower Yeah,

Stephanie (14:01):
if you're in the later months of summer, because
it's a manmade reservoir.
And the heat is up.
And I'm not even talking abouttoxic algae.
Mm.
It gets that sometimes, but Sodoes everybody have water?
No.
Like the, the kind that yourpets can't, but it would often
get regular algae that is notharmful, and so it gets a little
chunky.
Mm-hmm.
You know, especially by theedges.

(14:22):
If you have a boat and you cango out by the middle, it's not
as much.
Even we went out on the

Dani (14:26):
boat this year,

Stephanie (14:27):
a little chunky.

Dani (14:29):
It's just you come across like.
It's dirty conglomerates

Stephanie (14:32):
of it.
Yeah.
It's dirty.

Dani (14:34):
unlike, there's floaties for sure, unlike Lucky Peak that
has like, it's always flowing.
Mm-hmm.
And fresh water comes.
This is all canal water.
It's deeper and it's colder atLucky Peak, like it's canal
water.
Yeah.

Stephanie (14:48):
And it is what it is.

Dani (14:49):
So if you, still enjoy it, favorite memories Not, not, I'm
kidding.
Right now.
Like two foot carp running byyour legs when you're playing at
the dock.
Did you ever have that?
A what?

Stephanie (15:01):
The carp.
Oh yes.
They have carp fishingcompetition sometimes just to,
it's like an invasive speciestype thing where people go and
just fish the shit out of thecarp and they are

Dani (15:12):
disgusting fish.
They are gross looking.
They're trash fish and they arehuge and big scales, humongous
scales.
And they will rub right againstyour

Stephanie (15:21):
legs.
Yeah.
Yeah, so it's, listen, if youhave an opinion about it, I
respect your opinion either way,but I just feel like for the
folks that have never been therethat say, oh, it's disgusting.
It's really not.
Not that bad.
I mean, I got in the water thisyear.
Yeah, same.

(15:41):
And people, there's really greatfish in there like Ricky, Ricky
catches.
The bass, some amazing fish outof there.
We are typically a catch andrelease anyway, so it doesn't
matter.
He's there for the fun of it.
Yeah.
But it's like, it's a nicerecreation spot for us.
It's free, like mm-hmm.
You wanna do your kids'birthday, a picnic there.

(16:02):
There's recreation areas.
They have like a little, don'tthey have like a little museum
type?
It might be closer the wild.

Dani (16:09):
They have a wildlife center.

Stephanie (16:10):
Wildlife center, yeah.
So you can go there, get fieldtrips there.
I remember one of my.
Projects in high school was totrack invasive species and the
people that do that for a livingshow you how to map out what
they've done.
So it's a cool place.
it does get a bad rap though forsure.
People think it's literally asewer, it's not a fucking sewer

(16:31):
it's, it is not an actual toiletbowl.
I'm still living and I played

Dani (16:36):
in it my whole life.
So I have

Stephanie (16:38):
drank the water as a child.
We're still alive.
Yeah, we're fine.
So B'S been a bad

Dani (16:45):
rap.

Stephanie (16:46):
It does say, say

Dani (16:46):
less about, about Lake Lowell, but also Gott's point is
very, I mean, I was skinnydipping out there as a kid.
It's

Stephanie (16:53):
very accessible.
There's a good, usually a goodbeach area, maybe now,

Dani (16:58):
not back in the day.
It was kind of Bumby road.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He had to get out there and thenyou build a bonfire and I don't
know what you're thinking, youknow.
14, 16, 8.
Building a bonfire on the lakethat's closed.

Stephanie (17:12):
Yeah, you're gonna get caught immediately fishing
games, so whatever, right outthere.
Anyway, so

Dani (17:17):
Sheriff Donahue later said that Steven had used Backpage to
arrange a sexual encounter andplanned to pay one of the
suspects.
Unfortunately, when he got outof his car at this location with
the individual.
There were other individualswaiting in ambush and they
attacked him.
How shitty is that?

(17:39):
Based on Steven's statement,investigators uncovered evidence
on multiple websites linking thesuspects to similar activity.
This was their shtick.
This is what they were doing.
This was not their first time.
Donahue said this was a plannedattack.
What they did not plan for wasthat Steven would be able to

(18:00):
come forward and tell us thisinformation.

Stephanie (18:02):
Mm-hmm.
And listen, honestly, I'malready getting very, they've
got this a case of the stupids.
Mm-hmm.
These criminals, because thistype of crime, if you don't beat
the fuck outta someone too bad,maybe you just give'em a little
slapping around and subdue themenough to rob them, which it
sounds like that was theultimate goal.

(18:25):
This being, as you said, he wasthere for an encounter that some
people would find unsavory orshameful.
If someone can walk away fromthere with maybe still even
their car, or even without theircar, without being beat to
death, they're not gonna want tohave you pursued because they

(18:46):
don't want.
The shame of it.
The drama.
Yeah.
And that, and so that's why it'slike, why the fuck did you go
that far?
You psychos like,

Dani (18:56):
oh, they know what they're doing.
Sounds like it.
This one didn't go to plan.
Did not go to plan.
Mm.
Okay.
Detectives believe there couldbe more victims in the Treasure
Valley who have been ambushed insimilar setups.
We want victims to come forward.
Donahue said, we believe theyare out there.

(19:19):
He assured them that they wouldnot face charges for
solicitation, which is always afear.
Mm-hmm.
That is against the law.
But when you're talking aboutgetting beat, robbed murder,
they don't, the cops are notcaring.
They're not trying to, that youwere gonna pay for sex.
Yeah.
They, they don't care.

(19:39):
Yeah.
When it comes

Stephanie (19:40):
to that.
For the most part.
Yeah.
But I can see how it would stillbe a fear.
So it's good that they, oh,absolutely.

Dani (19:47):
so lemme tell you a little bit about Steven.

Ad (19:50):
Okay.

Dani (19:51):
He was in his forties when he earned a degree in public
relations from the University ofIdaho.

Stephanie (19:56):
Good for him.

Dani (19:57):
professor Keaton Bird said quote, he knew the value of
education perhaps more than an18-year-old freshman would.
I feel that so hard?
Oh, yeah.

Stephanie (20:06):
They take, I'm sure you, you know, you take it a lot
more seriously.

Dani (20:09):
Steven was remembered as intelligent, confident, and
kind.
Professor Becky Talent said herfirst thought after hearing
about the tack was of MatthewShepherd.
Right.
Somebody brought up MatthewShepherd in class once.
She said, Steven said somethinglike, I hope to God we've gotten

(20:30):
past that kind of violence.

Stephanie (20:33):
Oh my God.

Dani (20:36):
And these are his.
Good friend, like theseprofessors, and they were his
good friends, his colleagues,friends?
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Jason Woods had posted the adthat Steven responded to.
Prosecutors said Kelly Schneidermet Steven online and arranged
to meet him, Alec Lowell.

(20:56):
Schneider pushed him down andkicked him repeatedly with
steel-toed boot.
Leaving him gravely injured.

Stephanie (21:03):
Oh my God.
Who does that E?
Exactly.
And this is why, obviously Ihope that I'm not giving the
impression that I'm like, if youcould just rob him, then they
just do that and it's fine.
No, I don't think it's fine.
But given the motive, why are we

Dani (21:24):
kicking people with steel toed boot?
Yeah, unnecessarily.
I think that if you present a.
If you have presented some sortof weapon, I don't

Stephanie (21:35):
think that I, it's four against one in a dark time
in a place with no street light.
It's pitch black out there atnight and I bet you completely
pitch

Dani (21:44):
black.
Steven was like here.

Stephanie (21:47):
There

Dani (21:47):
was probably no reason.
Reason.
He would've just

Stephanie (21:49):
give.
Yeah, I most people how scary.
You're just wanna get

Dani (21:52):
a little something.
Yeah.
You're willing to pay for it.
Mm-hmm.
And now you're gonna beat my assand steal the car.

Stephanie (22:00):
What

Dani (22:00):
the

Stephanie (22:00):
fuck?
I'm sure that he would've been,and most people would a four
against one.
Unless you're a professional MMAfighter, most people are not
fool hard enough to believe thatthey can come back with
aggression towards aggression.
So I, and this guy doesn't soundlike the type that would've done

(22:21):
it, even if it was one-on-one.
Maybe like, no,

Dani (22:23):
let me, he's.
There's more to come about.
Oh my God.
Deputy prosecutor Chris Boyd,said quote, he kicked him again
and again.
Kevin, Tracy and Daniel Hinklehid nearby in case Snyder needed
help.

Stephanie (22:41):
Mm.

Dani (22:41):
Snyder took Steven's wallet, his car keys, clothes,
and debit card.

Stephanie (22:46):
Why did you need to take the clothes again?

Dani (22:49):
Why would you take the debit card?
These fucking idiot.

Stephanie (22:52):
This is leading.
This is leading more to justlike.
Hate crime with a side of money.
Like I'd love to hate crimesomeone and get a little cash
from it is what the vibes, I'mgetting barefoot and

Dani (23:03):
bleeding.
Steven managed to walk poor guyat half a mile to a nearby home
and that's when the residentscalled 9 1 1.
He was taken to the hospitalwith broken ribs and internal
bleeding and he died a few hourslater.
No, they fucked him up.
That's ridiculous.

(23:23):
Okay, ready for idiots.
Let's hear it.
Snyder and Henkel later usedSteven's debit card at an ATM
inside Albertson's withdrawing$123.

Ad (23:35):
Mm.

Dani (23:38):
You're fucking rich.
Investigators learned Snyder hadlured and beaten other victims
quote many, many times before.
Well,

Stephanie (23:46):
what the fuck?
Why is he out Okay.
Maybe because people justweren't reporting and he had
just maybe roughed him up a bitand not enough for them to wanna
report, but this is ridiculous.

Dani (24:01):
The FBI began investigating in mid-May,
whether whether the murderqualified as a hate crime, get
'em.
Sheriff Donahue confirmedfederal agents were examining
whether Steven was targeted forbeing gay.
They're going to have to meetsome pretty high standards of
federal law to make that happen.
To get beyond the, that robberyaspect, Donahue said under the

(24:25):
Matthew Shepherd and James ByrdJr.
Hate Crimes Prevention Act of2009 willfully causing bodily
injury based on a victim's race,religion, national origin,
sexual orientation, or genderidentity is a hate crime.
The the law is complicated.

(24:47):
US Attorney Wendy Olson, said.
We have to prove the offenseoccurred because of the
protected status of the victim.
Mm-hmm.
She said prosecutors must alsoprove the crime affected
interstate commerce.
Having that extra element ofproviding interstate commerce
can be a little bit cumbersome.
She said.

(25:10):
So with that, why does it

Stephanie (25:11):
have to affect interstate commerce?
Because it's a federal crime.
Oh.
So then they, they have theability to step in.
Okay.
Okay,

Dani (25:19):
So yes, it, in order for it to be a federal crime,

Stephanie (25:25):
they have to prove something in multiple states.
Affect, yeah.
Affecting it.
Yeah.

Dani (25:29):
Okay.
And we're gonna get a littledeeper into that as we go along.
Good.

Stephanie (25:34):
I'm excited'cause I don't really think about this
type of stuff often.
So,

Dani (25:39):
on May 21st, the group better Idaho.
Delivered petitions with morethan 1500 signatures to the US
attorney Wendy Olson calling forfederal hate crime charges.
Quote, the killing of Stevenshould be another signal to our
legislature that we need theseprotections, says Steve Martin

(26:00):
of the Pride Foundation.
Brian Lida with the IdahoCoalition Against Sexual and
Domestic Violence said, when wepush communities to the margins,
we encourage people to livetheir lives in hiding, to seek
relationships in ways that putthemselves in danger.

Stephanie (26:20):
Mm-hmm.

Dani (26:21):
Fuck yeah.

Stephanie (26:22):
Yeah.

Dani (26:25):
In June, the Canyon County Prosecutor's office announced it
would not pursue the deathpenalty because we all know
that's a fucking disasterwaiting to happen.

Stephanie (26:34):
It is.
It really, especially with howIdaho's handled it historically,
a shit show.

Dani (26:40):
Mm-hmm.
Leading to years and years ofappeals and freetrial and a
gazillion thousand dollars oftaxpayers money, and I'm not
saying it's not worth it, butreally we don't ultimately have
to get the drugs from blackDoug.
Yeah.
Ultimately, we're gonna end upwhere we end up on this, which

(27:02):
is gonna be.

Stephanie (27:05):
A shit show for eternity and, and

Dani (27:07):
then dragging family members through that appeal
process.
Mm-hmm.
We all know,'cause Idaho's deathpenalty is a shit show

Stephanie (27:14):
because we were not acting constitutionally for
years and we're handing it outlike candy.

Dani (27:20):
And then now yes we did.
And now it's all the drug stuff.
Mm-hmm.
Which, it'll be interesting tosee what happens now that they
brought the firing squad back.
I'll be very curious to see howthis all folds out with the
firing squad, and the deathpenalty to see if we see an
increase in death penalty cases.

Stephanie (27:41):
Mm-hmm.

Dani (27:42):
Um, I don't think we're gonna see a decrease in crime,
because it's really not adeterrent.
'cause people don't, if you're

Stephanie (27:49):
doing the type of stuff that

Dani (27:51):
require, that you get the death penalty for you, don't
give a fuck.

Stephanie (27:54):
That requires the death penalty now, I'll say.

Dani (27:57):
Right.
No, you're not caring.
No.
About the death penalty?
No.
There's no thought process until

Stephanie (28:03):
you're caught.
'cause, right.
And then you care.
That's always confused me aboutso many, and I might've said
this on other episodes, but Ijust, I try to put myself in the
shoes of people to try tounderstand their motives and
everything.
And some of these where I seethese serial killers just in
general, and I'm like, if Iended up getting caught and

(28:24):
having to be in like a 23 hoursolitary.
I would be welcoming andencouraging the death penalty,
like, that's just me.
Mm-hmm.
And how I am, I'd be like,absolutely.
Let's go.
Can we do it tomorrow?
Let, let's fucking go.
I would not wanna be old withdiabetes and health issues in

(28:45):
that environment with no, justhow bleak it is.
And

Dani (28:53):
Idaho is super, we're super, our very bleak, not good.
We are in one of the, our, theIdaho Correctional Facilities.
Not a good Time, are rated top10.
Worst.
Worst.
And the They don't give a fuck.
No, they don't.
And that's why Kohlberg's havingsuch a hard time.

(29:13):
He's

Stephanie (29:13):
like, what the hell?
Mm-hmm.
No.
And so a few of'em do.
A few of'em are like, oh mygosh.
But it's I would just.
If that wa if that was me, Idon't wanna live that way.
I'd be like,

Dani (29:26):
let's go put me to

Stephanie (29:27):
sleep forever.

Dani (29:28):
Yeah.
But they fight it and fight it.
And I also don't, they just have

Stephanie (29:33):
this will to live.
That's so, and I think it'sprobably the narcissism that
allowed them to fucking killpeople.
Oh.
You know, and it's it's crazy tome to just try to reconcile
that,

Dani (29:44):
but I don't.
At the base of it.
I don't think that the deathpenalty is a deterrent for these
people.

Stephanie (29:51):
I don't think so either.

Dani (29:53):
and like I said, the death penalty is very gray for me.
I don't know how I feel aboutit.
Same.
I don't know.
I'm not opposed, I'm notagainst,

Stephanie (30:01):
I'm just, overall I oppose just because I know that
it never plays out how you thinkit, it's very messy.
It sounds like.
Okay, now you die.
It is.
Always a fucking shit show.
Mm-hmm.
And I think for the families andthe taxpayers, just, especially
if you have botched attempts.
Oh my God.

Dani (30:20):
wish we saw with Cree.

Stephanie (30:22):
Yes.
And then you, you're welcomingin legislation that's now this
is cruel.
You like, it's just such anabsolute pile of shit to step
into for so many parties.
The victims, the families, thestate, the taxpayer.
It's so many things.
I just, I think overall, andespecially with the firing

(30:44):
squad, I find that somewhatbarbaric and weird, like I truly
do.

Dani (30:49):
I will say though, let me just say, I'm gonna be a little
devil's advocate here for this,is because people that have had
the death penalty have foughtand fought and fought, getting
knocked out and then gettingdead.
That they have kind of, um, thiswas the only action that the

(31:13):
state could do to actuallyconduct the sentence, if that
makes any sense.

Stephanie (31:20):
No, I see what you're saying.
Because you've, and I'm not, no,I'm not saying

Dani (31:23):
anything bad, but I'm just saying this is where it's got,
so the, the state is gonna findsome way to make.
This happened.
It was

Stephanie (31:30):
almost ridiculous to keep imposing the sentence.
Right.
If we don't have a way

Dani (31:34):
to do that, we had seen that where they're, I what
you're saying, they're just notgonna impose the death penalty.
They're just gonna give themlife in prison.
Because even though by law itwould qualify for the death
penalty, there was judges waslike, I'm not gonna give the
death penalty because ourprosecutors have said, I'm not
gonna do this because it's justgonna drag on and on and on.
Mm-hmm.
So guess what we're gonna do?
Just what they did with Coberg.

(31:55):
Life, no parole, you can't evenask.
You're fucked.
And that's what they've beendoing years and years and years.
And I

Stephanie (32:01):
prefer that in Myop.
That's my opinion is that Iprefer that for these types of
people because then they can'tkeep being the center of
attention.
They can't keep dragging peopleinto it.
Mm-hmm.
Because I think that they, somepe some of them like it.
Oh yeah.
They like being able to get areaction.
As we know with Narcissist, Ithink all of us have met
narcissist and they switch

Dani (32:21):
attorneys and they're They don't get MiraLax or whatever,
bullshit.
Oh my

Stephanie (32:25):
God.
I'm constipated and it's, it'saffected my constitutional
rights.
Yes.
And so I, I just feel like itkind of shuts the book.
Mm-hmm.
Like, no, we're not gonnacontinue revisiting this.
This is your sentence.
I don't really care about thetaxpayer money of keeping
someone there for life, becauseI think we've seen that.

(32:46):
How long did it take for Creech?
To even get to a point ofgetting executed.
And then how many botchedattempts, how much money did
that cost?
So for me, that's something thatI don't care about.
Most of our taxpayer money goesto like fuel wars abroad.
I don't really give a shit about19 the, or whatever it is.

Dani (33:07):
The only reason that for me,'cause like I said, I'm
great.
I don't know if I'm against itor for it.
Mm-hmm.
But I also have to say somefamilies want that.
Right.
And they deserve if we had

Stephanie (33:19):
an efficient, effective way and you didn't
have to wait 30 years to do it.
Yeah.

Dani (33:24):
But some families want that closure.
Mm-hmm.
And whatever feels good to I'm,no, I think, like I said, I have
no opinion, but if that makesthem feel better that somebody
else is dead because they killedtheir loved one.
Right then that's what theyshould get.

Stephanie (33:38):
And listen, I can understand, especially for some
of the ones that get away awaywith it for 20 years.
Yeah.
The fact that someone was ableto live their life mm-hmm.
In society for 20 years aftercommitting an atrocity and then
finally goes to jail in theirold age.
And it's like I, I can see thatnot just for that specific

(33:59):
circumstance, but I can see howthat would really fucking burn,
grind my gears like, yeah.

Dani (34:05):
So for me it's whatever.
It's like I feel like the familyshould be able of the loved one.
Mm-hmm.
Should be able to

Stephanie (34:11):
have more say.

Dani (34:13):
And I do think they get say, but I just want whatever
makes them feel

Stephanie (34:19):
a little bit better.
A little, they're never gonnafeel good.
No.

Dani (34:21):
But if, if they wanna guide to just rot in prison for
the rest of his life and noparole and they're cool with
that, fine.
If they want somebody to die as,as getting their say, I'm cool
with that.
I understand how co, and Iactually, I shouldn't say it's a
very complex thing.
I have never, been a victim of,of that kind of tragedy in my

(34:45):
life.
Mm-hmm.
So I can't speak intelligently.
I can't even imagine.
We

Stephanie (34:49):
can try to understand, but we'll never
fully understand unless it wasto happen to us.
Right.

Dani (34:58):
So that same month is when the pulse nightclub shooting in
Orlando happened.
Oh my God.
Remember that one?
Yes,

Stephanie (35:06):
I do.
It was horrific

Dani (35:08):
and it reignited the add the words movement in Idaho.
I remember that activists saidthe massacre showed exactly why
protections were needed forL-G-B-T-Q.
People in the state.
It's like 49 people weremurdered, an absolute murdered

Stephanie (35:26):
massacre.
Just terrible.
And

Dani (35:29):
I wanna say another 58.
Were were injured.
Like it was horrific.
Yeah.
So this all was happening, whichis, it's, it's to bring
attention to the issue, theculture Yeah.
Is

Stephanie (35:47):
important.

Dani (35:48):
The vibes at the time.
Yeah.
It's like, oh, we have thistragedy on top of our tragedy
here in Idaho.
There's another tragedy.
It's like, are you look atwhat's happening and.

Stephanie (35:58):
Not taking that into account has an effect that you
may not intend.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and I think it'simportant for cases like this
where I don't know where it'sgoing at the end, but like I
told you, this seemsunnecessarily cruel for no
reason.

(36:19):
If you just needed money, justrob the guy.
Why?
Why was he naked and beaten todeath?

Dani (36:27):
On January 23rd, 2017, Kelly Schneider pled guilty to
first degree murder.
Mm hours later, he was chargedin federal court with a hate
crime.
Nope.
Got him.
Prosecutor said he admitted heintended to rob Steven but not
kill him.

(36:47):
He acknowledged kicking Stevenrepeatedly and causing his death
as part of the plea deal.
Felony robbery, theft andconspiracy charges were dropped.
Mm-hmm.
he faced up to life in prisonand was set for sentencing on
March 20th.
Okay.
And just two days later, Snyderpled guilty to a federal hate

(37:09):
crime for willful assault basedon sexual orientation resulting
in death.
He faced up two life in federalprison, five years of supervised
release.
And a$250,000 fine.
And his sentencing was set forApril 26th.

Stephanie (37:29):
Okay.
But see, note how he pled guiltyto it.
I feel like he knew he was, nopun intended, dead to rights.
Mm-hmm.
On that this was a targetedattack.
and that it had some other,what's the word?
Some other things behind it, youknow, some other, it wasn't just

(37:52):
to rob someone.
No.
There was some other intentionsthat, that were at play here.
Yeah,

Dani (37:59):
absolutely.
and so I, I can't remember ifit's later in my story, so I'm
just gonna say it now.
so how they got this as afederal crime.
Was because he used the internet

Stephanie (38:17):
genius because it's the worldwide web.

Dani (38:21):
Yes, www.
It's the www, yes.
Oh, I love that.
So even though they said it wasgonna be difficult at the
beginning, the prosecutor saidit would be difficult to do once
you use the internet or a cellphone.
Now you're interstate, yourworldwide, your pit bull, Mr.
Worldwide.
Absolutely.

(38:41):
I love this.
On February 2nd, Jason Woods wasconvicted of first degree
murder, robbery, conspiracy, andaccepting the earnings of a
prostitute.
Oh yeah.
He was the guy.
and he, he was gone.
He went to court.
He went to trial.

Stephanie (38:59):
Oh, did he?

Dani (39:00):
Yeah.
And that's why he has And, and,and, and, and, and and.
Oh, they got him.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Got him.
Good.
Prosecutors said Woods helpedSchneider lure Steven to the
lake where Schneider beat androbbed him.
Woods had a disturbing history.
He and his ex-girlfriend hadpreviously set up fake sexual

(39:21):
encounters to rob clients.
According to police.
Gross Woods had driven, thewoman around and also.
Had her perform sexual acts formoney.
So sometimes it was a trick,sometimes it wasn't.
So we're like,

Stephanie (39:38):
that's where I just don't get, and, and why it makes
the motive more clear.
It's like you're not againstprostitution and thinking
prostitutes are bad.
No.
Sometimes it's okay.
You are pimping out yourgirlfriend.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.

Dani (39:52):
Anyway, he admitted to dividing up the proceeds at the
end of each night.

Stephanie (39:57):
Oh, how sweet.

Dani (39:59):
So fair.
Prosecutors said he had quote,assembled accomplices to lure
and rob prostitution clientsfirst targeting homosexuals
before deciding that gay menwere easier victims because of
the shame aspect that we talkedabout.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
and that, that's really what itwas, is that either if you just

Stephanie (40:22):
rob him,

Dani (40:23):
they're probably not gonna say anything.
No.
And even, yeah.
Or even getting some, these

Stephanie (40:31):
men are married,

Dani (40:32):
you know?
Yeah.
They have careers that theydon't wanna be, which, you know,
I would like to think in 2025.

Stephanie (40:39):
No,

Dani (40:40):
it's, who cares?
It's still

Stephanie (40:41):
a great risk.

Dani (40:41):
Yeah.

Stephanie (40:42):
Uh,

Dani (40:42):
to their career,

Stephanie (40:45):
to, unfortunately, some are married, which I don't
really agree with the whole DLthing.
But no one deserves to bemurdered about it.
No.

Dani (40:53):
Or even beaten, I mean the, some of these men were not
even reporting, getting beaten.
Mm-hmm.
And robbed, not murdered, butthey were beating up people and
robbing them, knowing that theyhad a pretty high chance of just
getting away with it.
Yeah.

Stephanie (41:10):
Because they're not gonna say anything.
They're gonna say, oh, I went toa bar.
Someone tried to steal my car,and I got a little hit to their
wife or family.
Right.
And.
You know, the cops couldn't.
I slipped in the parking lot onice.
Cops couldn't.
Cops couldn't do much.

Dani (41:23):
Yeah.

Stephanie (41:23):
You know,

Dani (41:24):
or I slipped, forgot to lock my car.
Yeah.
So sad.
On March 3rd, Daniel Hinkleadmitted he was nearby ready to
help Schneider during theattack.
Mm.
He carried a brass pipe that hesaid he would use to break
Steven's car windows.
Mm.
So he was hiding, but he helped.

(41:46):
he faced five years to life inprison and seven more years for
violating probation in a 2015case.
Five years

Stephanie (41:53):
to life.
That is such a span.
Yeah.
That's some of these spans thatyou get.
I'm like, I mean, I guess thatthat does help you leave it open
to interpretation of, you know,if someone did really do
something that wasn't veryharmful, but it's still strange
to me.

Dani (42:09):
Yeah.
It had been nearly a year sinceSteven died, but his family
relived that night every day.
His father, Edgar said quote,after 49 years, his prince and
our lives and our hearts areeverywhere.
He told the court he woke upevery night and walked that last

(42:29):
mile with Steven.
Oh my God, quote, when you thinkabout torture.
I don't know how you couldinflict more torture than what
has been described.
He said his mother Mary missedher son's daily phone calls.
His sister Connie said quote,Steven wasn't our gay brother.
He was just our brother.

(42:50):
Yeah.

Stephanie (42:52):
Oh my God.
Just seeing the effect and,

Dani (42:57):
and then it's come down to a hate crime when she's just
like, that's our brother.
Yeah.
I mean, it was a hate crime,but.
She was like, we didn't view ourbrother in that way.
He was just my bro.
Yeah.
Who called our

Stephanie (43:09):
mother every single day.
Okay.

Dani (43:15):
Snyder sat in a yellow and white jail jumpsuit with his
head down as the family spoke,judge Thomas Ryan sentenced him
to life in prison with 28 yearsbefore Par he'd be eligible for
parole.
He said quote.
He should not be released anyearlier than age 60, and that

(43:36):
may be too soon.
Good for him.
Yeah.
Prosecutors said Schneider had ahistory of violence and that
that group had planned similarrobberies like we talked about.
Mm-hmm.
Schneider's defense attorneyDick Rubin, argued that Snyder's
violent upbringing shaped who hebecame.

(43:59):
Ruben says Snyder had beenabused as a child, and that his
mother was a victim of violencewhile his father struggled with
drug addiction.
Ugh, puke.
Don't care.

Stephanie (44:11):
But, and listen, it's, it's just because we, we
have been and have known so manypeople who have been through
violent upbringings.
I mean, look at women.
What is it like 20% of womenhave been sexually assaulted?
Are they out doing mass murders?

(44:32):
Are they the ones out doing bigcrimes?
No, they're not.
So it's like, yes, we can holdsome space for that, or whatever
you want say, but there's somany people who have gone
through true atrocities and noone should have to go through
that.
But they're not.
Doing this shit like this?

(44:53):
No.
This is just a, a willful, cruelact.
And it's not just to get money.
If it was just to get money, youwould've been a lot smarter
about it.
Yeah.
And just gotten the money.
So no, you're, you're out hereto be four dudes that beat the
shit out of another guy becauseyou feel a certain type of way

(45:13):
about that guy.

Dani (45:14):
Yep.
Exactly.
Yeah.
His, defense attorney said also,by the time the Snyder was five,
he was showing violenttendencies by nine.
He was hospitalized in apsychiatric facility diagnosed
with a depressive order,post-traumatic stress disorder
and A DHD.

(45:35):
And that sucks,

Stephanie (45:37):
you know,

Dani (45:37):
sorry, dude, but really,

Stephanie (45:40):
and I wish that he wouldn't have had whatever up if
it was a.
Na.
A nurture thing versus a naturething.
Like I'm really sorry.
no one deserves at the age offive.
If you're doing that, I dobelieve that something shitty
was going on in your life, butthis was not the way we all have

Dani (45:58):
a story is all I'm saying.
Okay.
Don't get upset.
I will, but Sure.
Defense attorney Ruben told thecourt quote, just as Steven did
not choose to be gay.
Kelly did not choose hischildhood circumstances.

Stephanie (46:18):
I don't know.
I feel like this is, we've seensome people try to connect the
dots these ways in the past anddraw a comparison that isn't
really there.
Or even if it was there, it'sincredibly distasteful.
We're not done.

Dani (46:35):
Oh, okay.
Go on.
He said that a Steven's familyhas compassion for others.
He hoped they might feel, quote,a little compassion for Kelly.
No.
And in what way?

Stephanie (46:50):
In what do you what?
What is compassion look like toyou?
What are you actually asking forhere?
Say it.
I would like the family to

Dani (47:00):
feel sorry for the guy who murdered their son and, and say

Stephanie (47:03):
that he should never spend a day in jail.
Shut the fuck, because of hischildhood.
What are you asking the familyof a murdered person to do?

Dani (47:12):
Oh, what are,

Stephanie (47:13):
what do you actually want?
It makes.
You wanna, that's cowardly andit's pussy ass bitch.

Dani (47:18):
Shit.
And Snyder had spent time injuvenile corrections from ages
16 to 18, then state prison from19 to 22.
Institutionalized.
Sure.
He had been out on parole onlyfive months when Steven was
killed.

Stephanie (47:35):
And listen, there's a million things that we can also
try to tie in of shit could bebetter here.
Prisons could be better,juvenile corrections could be
better, but that's never goingto get you an excuse to fucking
murder someone.
I'm sorry.
There's still room to discussthat in another avenue.
I don't think that this is theplace to discuss it to if you

(47:58):
really care that much.
Are you running campaigns?
Are you participating in thecommunity?
Are you working for jail andjuvenile reform?
Are you doing that?
No, because that's what we willreally change it.
Not trying to pull out littlekey buzzwords for a defendant.
And I know, I know they, they'vegotta do it.

(48:19):
I know they've gotta try topresent the best defense for
shitty or else.
'cause if they don't, if theydon't try to pull out every
stop.
Appeal.
Appeal.
Appeal.
Yes.
Retrial.
Mistrial, bullshit.
Ineffective counsel.
So I get it, but it's still,this is why me personally.
I would not wanna be hearingthis absolute bullshittery of,

(48:43):
oh, like again and again andagain for a death penalty
sentence.
There was this one

Dani (48:48):
time, like, yeah, sh, when given a chance to speak Snyder
said, quote, I am truly sorryfor the pain and suffering I put
your family through.
There's nothing I can ever do tomake it up.
Facing the judge.
He said, quote, I don't think myjuvenile history or the problems

(49:08):
I went through should have anybearing on what I did almost a
year ago.
That's a cop out.
It's an excuse.
It's pure stupidity to use thatto my own benefit.
Wow.
Wow.

Stephanie (49:24):
Surprised I would have never.
And I'm not a gambling woman,but I, even if I was a gambling
woman, I would've never bet thatI would hear that.

Dani (49:35):
I almost feel like he was pissed off at his attorney.
That

Stephanie (49:39):
was their, they're like, we're the attorneys.
This is our, just trust us.
This is our strategy.
But he still, you know what, Iwill give props because it does
show some actual remorse.
It does.
Of not going, towing the line.
Right.
Of saying That doesn't excuseit.
That's actually, again, notexcusing it.
But it's, that's one of the bestresponses I've heard though from

(50:00):
it.
That feels like it.
He had a PR team that wasworking against the defense,
yeah.
And if he actually felt that wayand said it and didn't have
someone telling him to say that,he's that's not an excuse.
That would, that would speakvolumes to me 20 years whenever
he, if he was eligible, thatwould speak volumes of, he never

(50:21):
tried to say.

Dani (50:23):
Poor me.

Stephanie (50:23):
Yeah.
Oh, he said, no, that's a copout.
Wow.
You do not typically hear that.

Dani (50:28):
No.
On April 11th, Jason Woods wassentenced.
Judge George Southworth calledhim the mastermind Prosecutor
Chris Boyd said, quote, A goodman's dead because of the
defendant's greed.
Without Jason Woods, this crimedoes not happen.

(50:49):
Steven's cries of pain.
His pleas for mercy are on thisman's head.
The judge sentenced woods tolife in prison with 28 years
before he would be eligible forparole.
Okay.
Matching Schneider's terms.
Woods looked directly atSteven's family and said, quote,
I am very sorry for the family'sloss.

(51:11):
I can't fathom the pain they'regoing through.

Stephanie (51:14):
Standard and typical, and we've heard that from
people, not in,

Dani (51:17):
not near as impressed as

Stephanie (51:19):
no,

Dani (51:19):
no defense attorney, Larry Sisson said Woods was trying to
turn his life around afterkicking a drug habit.
He said Woods who identified asa bisexual, never intended
violence and wanted Kelly toperform services for Steven that
would have been paid forwillingly.
This is another defense attorneytactic.

(51:41):
Just bullshit.
Uh, but Boyd said Woods knewexactly who Snyder was, a
violent man who hatedhomosexuals and sent him anyway.
By the way, I hate using theword homosexuals.

Stephanie (51:56):
It's just, it's what come, that's how it was written
about in the time as well.
I mean, and it is, I don't thinkit's necessarily a bad term, but

Dani (52:03):
No, it's not a bad term.
I just feel like it's so formal.
People.

Stephanie (52:06):
Well, and people have used it in a derogatory,
derogatory way, and so, um, butI just.
That's incredibly disappointingthat he was quote unquote, a
member of the L-G-B-T-Qcommunity and used that.
But I wonder if

Dani (52:21):
that was very convenient that he identified that way once
he was in court.
Or even listen,

Stephanie (52:29):
we've seen it in, or I've seen it in many different,
crimes that have happened thatespecially.
Men that are DL or that arebisexual but haven't come to
terms with that, or gay thathaven't come to terms with that
are incredibly dangerous becausethey are not willing to give up

(52:56):
the like straight manprivileges, the facade that they
have.
Wife, kids, my laundry, stem, mymeals are cooked.
Yeah, I've got these kids.
Cool.
They're great.
they're just.
It creates such a burningtension of emotions that, that
even adds to, to the, the fearof being exposed or anything.

(53:20):
Right.
So I wonder were you even out atthis time?
I'm not saying that that, youknow, whatever, but it's maybe a
bisexual,

Dani (53:27):
but at this time, was he telling his buddy that hated
homeless?
Yeah, we all these hated gaypeople that, No.

Stephanie (53:34):
Or was this another, I feel like one of his outlets
to prove himself.
'cause that's what, that's whatyou see, like mm-hmm.
The just desire to proveyourself to other men and
justify yourself and beimportant to other men.
That trumps so much, and it'sjust, there's a lot of good
conversation about thishappening.

Dani (53:58):
Well, and Judge Southward said quote.
A lot of people are raised innot the best households and turn
out just fine and truly suck itup buttercup, you're a fucker.

Stephanie (54:12):
Like really?
I think, I think it's good tomention it just because it shows
how things are passed down, notonly genetically but through the
same traumas.
And I think that people over thelast two generations especially
Yeah, are becoming morecognizant of, hey.
I'm feeling this, I'm triggeredby this.

(54:34):
Should I do it the same way myparents did or should I try to
find another way?
Right.
But it will, you don't killabout it.
Never excuse.
It will never excuse.
So go to some therapy.
Yeah, take some If you, if it'sa problem you have got to and
people that have a lot of moneydo it or don't do it.

(54:55):
They've got all the money in theworld.
Yeah.
And they don't do it.
Yeah.
And people that don't have themoney find a way to do it or
don't do.
It's so, there's

Dani (55:03):
no excuse for not improving yourself in in today's
time and just avoiding

Stephanie (55:08):
murdering people.
Yeah.
At the very least, can we notmurder about it?
Thank you.
You might act out in public.
You might be not the bestfriend.
You might do some unsavorythings.
Just if you could please atleast not murder about it

Dani (55:23):
or beat people.

Stephanie (55:24):
Thank you.

Dani (55:26):
On April 26th, chief US District Judge b Lynn Windmill,
sentenced Kelly Schneider to 28years in federal prison for that
hate crime.
Steven's father said quote,because he was gay, the hatred
of another person was poured outupon him in a manner we cannot
believe.

(55:47):
Mm-hmm.
Assistant US attorney AaronLuso, said quote.
Serious criminal punishmentrepresents a society strong
condemnation of what theoffender has done.
We're not accepting thisanymore.
Yes,

Stephanie (56:01):
and it's, IM, I think it's so important to note that
kind of hatred because it isn'ta random thing.
It isn't a crime of passion.
Like, and not saying thatcrime's a passion are okay, but
there's.
To target someone, a stranger,and to do it from just a point

(56:27):
of you clearly think less of a,of a group that's different from
you.
That says a lot, and that says,I think that these types of
things might affect criminals,not people that wanna kill
people, but people that wanna.
Be causing disturbances or nothigher or you know, just, I

(56:51):
think that it does affect theculture in the way that it's
like, you can't do that.
You can't do that.
We're not putting up with it nomore.
so that's why I think it's soimportant.

Dani (57:04):
I the end of April.
About 200 people gathered at theKnitting factory in Boise for a
stand for Steven Fundraiserraising more than$5,000 for
Steven Nelson Emergency Fund atBoise State University.
This is great.

Stephanie (57:21):
Oh my

Dani (57:21):
gosh.
The fund helps L-G-B-T-Qstudents who lose support when
they come out.
Senator Maryanne Jordan said weare fortunate that federal laws
are in place.
But the absence of stateprotections for the LGBT
community is a scar on Idaho.

(57:41):
It really is.
Representative Melissa Windrowsaid, quote, I thought people
could empathize with the factsin particular and assault and a
violent attack.
So

Stephanie (57:53):
yeah, not knowing anything else, can you not just
say.
Should someone be beaten todeath for meetings like they
were clearly there to rob nomatter what he was there for.
Right?
They could all lured in therewith a Craiglist scam.
Yeah, sure.
Sell me your tv.
Yeah.
Should someone, no, it'simportant that we know that it

(58:13):
was, there was other things atplay here,

Dani (58:18):
so, so let me tell you though, mm-hmm.
In 2025, Idaho still has notadded the words.
There is no protection in thestate of Idaho.
Isn't surprising to me as a fora hate crime if for your sexual
orientation.
Yeah.
Blew my fucking my, so you

Stephanie (58:39):
could literally stab someone and be like, I just
think that you're gay and that'swhy I'm doing this, and that's
my motive.
And there's no other,

Dani (58:47):
you're not gonna get charged with a hate crime unless
it's a federal hate crime, so.
Mm-hmm.
And luckily the Fed stepped inon this.
Yes.
And, and nailed them.
But we don't have anything herein the state of I, which I
thought for sure there thereshould be because it's easier in
2015.
Yeah.
I mean, a decade.
We have gay marriage now.

(59:07):
Like we know it's,

Stephanie (59:10):
yeah.

Dani (59:11):
It should be a protected thing.
And it's even going back, Imean, even going back to Matthew
Shepherd, yeah, what a tragedythat.
Should encourage every state tohave these protections so that
we don't get these fuckingnarcissistic.

Stephanie (59:27):
Yeah.

Dani (59:28):
Over emasculated men thinking that they need to prove
their manhood by beatingsomebody up who is of a
different sexual orientationthan them that's not

Stephanie (59:37):
doing anything to them.

Dani (59:38):
So basic like they could target in Idaho, somebody could
target somebody for their sexualorientation.
And beat them up just because,and they're only just gonna get
an assault charge.
They're when they

Stephanie (59:53):
should get something.
A hate

Dani (59:55):
crime charge.
I was just because I think it's

Stephanie (59:59):
to to be a little SVU here.
Especially heinous.
Yeah.
Espec,

Dani (01:00:04):
you're targeting somebody.
This isn't

Stephanie (01:00:06):
a fight because you guys had a disagreement about.
Getting in line at the fair orsomebody cut someone else off?
No, those aren't right either.
But there's something that's ageneral, like lighting the fire
of a disagreement, these type ofthings.
If just if if's, if are goingout of your way to, to find

(01:00:32):
someone that you'd like to hurtand that's fucking weird to me.

Dani (01:00:39):
You can get a hate crime in Idaho if you target somebody
of a different race.

Stephanie (01:00:45):
At least have, if you decide that.
I'm honestly surprised thatIdaho even has that.
Yeah.

Dani (01:00:49):
Well, truly, truly, like if you wanna beat up, uh, if
you're targeting Muslim peopleor uh, Hispanic people, you're
getting a hate crime, but youdon't get a hate crime if you
target gay people.
Yeah.
It makes no fucking sense to me.
Mm-hmm.
How fucking that you can just

Stephanie (01:01:11):
get a simple assault instead of like,

Dani (01:01:14):
yeah.

Stephanie (01:01:14):
If you're ru rooting around town and you're lifted
truck looking for gay people tohit with a bat, like that's a
different thing than getting ina fight with like a bar fight.
Right.
Over a disagreement aboutkaraoke.
That's different,

Dani (01:01:29):
right?
It is fucking

Stephanie (01:01:30):
different.

Dani (01:01:30):
Yeah.
We're not targeting people.
No.
Anyway, it blew my fucking mind.
So still not okay.
I would love to see that.
Add the fucking words.
Mm-hmm.
And, this isn't in my story, butthey tried to, in 2017 to get in
front of.
And pardon me if I misspeak infront of the legisl, get into

Stephanie (01:01:52):
like Idaho Congress or whatever.
Yeah.
To

Dani (01:01:53):
get in front of the Congress, like Legisla.
Thank you.
and they, even after all ofthis, even after Steven's
murder, and this was even thepulse killing, they, they
weren't allowed time.

Stephanie (01:02:09):
Extremely disappointing.
And you know.
It's one of the nuances ofliving here I'll say is that I
think that just about everyonethat comes here to Idaho really
loves it for different reasons.
Maybe they like the outdoors,maybe they like the sense of
community.

(01:02:29):
'cause there are some reallygood community approaches here.
maybe they like the taxes.
I don't know, maybe who knowswhat reason you're coming here.
But most people that come herereally do love it.
However, there is the, there isthe undercurrent, mm-hmm.
Of just injustices andbullshittery and it affects

(01:02:52):
everyone.
Some people think it won'taffect them, and they come here
because they think a certainthing and then they move on
pretty quickly when they realizethat we have a lot of, a lot of
struggles that.
A lot of other states have,it's, it's not a perfect state
by any means, but I think thatpeople who live here do wanna

(01:03:16):
make it a better place overall.
And we'll just keep fighting.

Dani (01:03:25):
It makes me sad that we don't have those.
I'm, I'm truly upset because wehave pride

Stephanie (01:03:30):
in our

Dani (01:03:31):
state.
Yeah.
I'm very prideful to be fromhere, but it makes me sad that
we wouldn't protect people likemy dear friends that I've had in
my life, from getting targeted.
It makes me sad.
So anyways.
No, absolutely.
I'm emotional.

Stephanie (01:03:45):
It's, listen, I didn't think

Dani (01:03:47):
I was gonna, I was pissed when I was writing it, and now
I'm emotional just.
Listening to you talk and justhaving more of a thought process
instead of research.
Research, but it's a

Stephanie (01:03:57):
constant fight.
Yeah.
You know?
'cause like we said, we'reproud.
Yeah.
We're proud of our communitythat we've built.
We're proud of our neighbors.
We love each other.
And then how

Dani (01:04:06):
hard is it to fucking add those words?
Like there is very, it

Stephanie (01:04:09):
isn't is the thing.
And that's what makes it so muchmore infuriating.
Yeah.
It's like, why can't we do that?
It isn't, we can.
How fast did we rush through thefiring squad?
Very fast.
Few days, few weeks.
Oh yeah.
And now we have all this andwe're building it like we're

Dani (01:04:24):
building tax.
As soon as Brian Berger killedthose poor fucking kids up
there, they're like, build it.
We we're passing this off.
We now

Stephanie (01:04:34):
have unlimited funds and unlimited means to do
whatever the fuck we want, butwe can't add the words for hate
crime people.
Yeah.
That fucking pisses me off that,and that's it made me emotional.
I think you summed it upperfectly and you showed that
it's just.
It's incredibly disappointing.
Yeah.

(01:04:54):
For something that we'repassionate about.
Yeah.
And it sucks, but this is wherewe live and we have a lot of
things to be proud of and a lotof things to continue to work on
because yeah.
Fuck that shit.

Dani (01:05:06):
Yep.
So let's get to these, wherethese guys are at now.

Stephanie (01:05:12):
Oh.

Dani (01:05:15):
Kevin Tracy is now 30 and he was released in 2000.
That's wild.
2017 on probation.
His probation ends, in April of2027.
Daniel Hinkle is 32 and was justreleased on parole in 2024.

(01:05:37):
His probation ends, He got aprobation kids.
His probation ends in April of2036.

Stephanie (01:05:47):
At least.
There's a good amount ofsupervision and he'll probably

Dani (01:05:49):
fuck that up.
I, I don't know how, listen,kudos to these people that can
be on, on parole for 10 plusyears, never drink.
Mm-hmm.
Being

Stephanie (01:05:58):
around people who are drinking.
You can, yeah.
A roommate.

Dani (01:06:01):
Yeah.
I.
Can't smoke.
Well, it's not legal to smokethe marijuana in Idaho anyways,
but you can't even get a little,you can't even go have a little
gummy to sleep like, yeah.
so he'll probably fuck that up.
Jason Woods is 38 and is incustody at the Idaho State
Correctional Center F Block.

(01:06:25):
He'll be eligible for parole in2034.
I always like to throw in theblocks when I find them, because
then I like to refer to it withother criminals.
Like who's, yeah, who else,who's, who's your body, bro?

Stephanie (01:06:36):
Who's on your block, honey?
Yeah, I like that.

Dani (01:06:39):
and Kelly Schneider is currently 32 in a federal prison
in Colorado called USP, FlorenceAd Max.

Stephanie (01:06:53):
This is a bad one.

Dani (01:06:54):
It is.
Let me, is this,

Stephanie (01:06:56):
I think they had Chapo there,

Dani (01:06:58):
a Supermax prison.
They

Stephanie (01:07:00):
had El Chapo there.
I'm pretty sure I'm gonna tell

Dani (01:07:01):
you the list of prisoners there.
Uh, a Supermax prison.
I went on a fucking, this is myWikipedia part by the way.
Thank you.
I went on, I was like, are youfucking kidding me?
So Supermax prison, AKA, theAlcatraz of the Rockies.
Mm-hmm.
It is known for extremeisolation.

(01:07:22):
With inmates confined tosoundproof cells 23 hours a day.
So you can't even shout to yourfriends.
No.
Through the

Stephanie (01:07:28):
vents, through the doors, you are by yourself with
your fucking thoughts.
You cannot communicate withanyone.

Dani (01:07:34):
Um, famous inmates or infamous inmates include El
Chapo.
Thank you.
I'm so glad a number one.
Ted Kozinski.

Stephanie (01:07:46):
No shit.

Dani (01:07:46):
The Boston Marathon Bomber.

Stephanie (01:07:49):
Lots of terrorists are here, aren't they?

Dani (01:07:51):
Terry Nichols from the Oklahoma City bombings.
Yep.
The shoe bomber.

Stephanie (01:07:57):
Tara REOs.

Dani (01:07:58):
Yeah.

Stephanie (01:08:00):
This is crazy.
I'm glad.
I'm glad he is there.
Fucking not.

Dani (01:08:05):
I know, I know.
Uh, anyway, I was just reallysurprised.
I was like.
Okay.
Oh, okay.
Super blah, blah, blah.
And I was like, oh my God, theinmates, he's in there.
Fuck yeah.
And so, you know what?
He's a fucking peon in there, bythe way.
He doesn't even have little, not

Stephanie (01:08:21):
even

Dani (01:08:21):
any

Stephanie (01:08:21):
cred.

Dani (01:08:22):
No.
No cred.
No cred.
You're like, uh, we got Ted inhere.
Oh my God, the boss Literally,literally El Chapos here.
Yeah.
You thing the shoe, like, wedon't get, you're some little.
Pid like,'cause you know, someof these guys just, they're
respected for their fucking,

Stephanie (01:08:39):
so some of these folks, so like El Chapo, I'm
sorry, this is not to give propsor anything.
Right.
That was a multi-billion dollarbusiness.

Dani (01:08:49):
Right.

Stephanie (01:08:50):
And from not, he was not given it by his parents.
He wasn't given a million dollarloan.
He wasn't given anything.
He built this, he grew this.
Yes, it's a terrible fuckingbusiness, but.
To be able to not only get thatlevel of control and business,
but he was, for the most part,in some places locally loved

(01:09:11):
because he was also giving backto communities.
I'm not saying he wasn'tviolent, but he did.
He did things that people even,even that could have been hurt
by his practices.
They still liked him.

Dani (01:09:25):
I'm feeling like somebody like El Chapo, Ted Kazinski,
they're probably getting alittle bit more care than some
fucking idiot that murdered agay person.
Mm-hmm.
I'm just saying like, I bet youthere's different levels of
respect.
Respect.
Well, I'm

Stephanie (01:09:42):
sure they all, they all have fan clubs and no one
has a, I don't, I think not manypeople have a fan club for our
suspect for people here.
People, yeah.
No, our criminal here.

Dani (01:09:51):
No, they got you on.
Way to use the internetmotherfucker.

Stephanie (01:09:56):
Federal charges.
Good for you.
Let's just give it a,

Dani (01:10:00):
because our state couldn't do it, so, uh, thank you.
Yeah.
So Schneider's release date fromfederal prison is in 2052.
We'll see what happens afterthat.
Steven partner, Steven's familysaid they would never stop
walking that mile with him.
His death became one of the mostbrutal hate crimes in Idaho's

(01:10:21):
history.
Kelly Snyder and his accompliceswill spend decades behind bars.
But the hate that killed Stevendidn't die with him.
He had no, it didn't.
No.
And there is still that,organization that, is raising
money for people who are comingout.

(01:10:42):
And they, they were helping,they said about two students a
year that became like, homeless.
Homeless because they came out.
Mm-hmm.
which is a fan.
I mean, that's a fantasticorgani.
And, and they said it doesn'ttake long, like they're just
helping them get stable.
Yeah.
And then these, yeah.
These people are picking uptheir lives.

(01:11:04):
They just need help on the shortterm.
oh my God, I'm homeless, whichwe know can lead.
You don't have a home.
You got a lot of problems.
Especially

Stephanie (01:11:13):
as a college student.
Yeah, as a teenager.
Yeah.
If you thought you were gonnahave that support.
And what I'll say is, this is alesson that I learned later in
life that I think that peopleshould, is you choose your
family.
You have your family.
Yes.
And you can choose whateveramount of loyalty you wanna
give.

(01:11:34):
Sometimes that will hurt youthough.
Yeah.
People in your family can betoxic.
And I hate when people keepincredibly toxic members.
Especially like the oldergeneration is like, oh, it's
just Uncle Bob.
You know?
He's just a molester of everyonein the family.
But we just still like that typeof shit.
Fucking infuriates me.

(01:11:56):
And so I think it's so ingrainedin us that your family is your
family.
And if someone isn't born intoyour family, like yes, they
might be your best friend, butthey're not your family.
I don't think that's the case.
And that hasn't been the case inmy experience.
And so to just urge anyone outthere, you can choose your
family.

Dani (01:12:16):
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie (01:12:17):
And you know the people that are gonna really
ride for you.
And if you come out and peopleare willing to drop you like
that, especially your ownparents that birthed you, that's
a them problem.
Yeah.
1000%.
So how great.
Seek out and try to find goodallies, good friends.

(01:12:38):
It can be a tough road too.
You know, everyone has their ownmotives and whatever, but.
When you find your family, dowhat you can and keep that
family.

Dani (01:12:48):
And family's not always blood.
No,

Stephanie (01:12:51):
not exactly what I'm saying.
Yes.
Okay.
Not at all.

Dani (01:12:57):
Well, this episode has me emotionally wrecked, so can we
go cry about your mom?
I know.
I'm so fucking upset.
And I was just like, like Isaid, just very disappointed
that we have not added the wordsyet.
Yeah.
And that, and actually I waskind of disappointed in myself
that I didn't know that.
I assumed that there was, andI'll say I did too.

(01:13:19):
State protections.
For, I

Stephanie (01:13:21):
remember the movement.
Yeah.
And I, you know that we're still

Dani (01:13:24):
not there.
Fucking T this is 2025.
Jesus.

Stephanie (01:13:29):
And it's I, I, if anyone wants to say that, that's
not something that could cause atargeting on a specific
demographic of people.
I think you've gotta be outtayour mind.
Yeah.
Like that's ine It's just one ofthose arguments that I wouldn't
even dane to, to participate inbecause I'm, you're gonna tell
me there's not people out therethat would target gay people.

(01:13:53):
Fat mouth.
Well, are you living on the sameplanet?
Right.
That we're living.
So I think it's, I'll end withthis is.
Yeah.
It's one of those things where Ithink we're so emotional because
it's so disappointing for ourstate.

Dani (01:14:08):
Yeah.

Stephanie (01:14:08):
Yep.
But I think there's still hope,and I do.
And I think that you have tohave hope.

Dani (01:14:14):
You have to have hope,

Stephanie (01:14:15):
and you've gotta do things in your everyday life
that help change people's minds,that knock people down when
they're doing bullshit things ordemonstrating really shitty
things to other people.
Those type of things mean morebecause I, I know that I am the
type of person where I'm like,God, I just wish I could flip a

(01:14:37):
switch, right?
And be like, no, it's the lawnow.
Or No, this has changed now.
There's so much that theimportant work is done on the
front lines and you can supportthese legislative changes.
But even, even if a legislatorwas to say, no, this is the law
now.

(01:14:57):
This is the law now, if youdon't.
Have the societal and culturalchange, it wouldn't matter.
I don't, I don't think it wouldhave any impact.
So just know that what youaccept and what you don't accept
says a lot, and your familydoesn't always have to be blood

(01:15:18):
led, and you can choose yourfamily.

Dani (01:15:24):
One more party note, tell

Stephanie (01:15:25):
me

Dani (01:15:26):
please, if you're feeling like.
If you wanna help, please reachout and search for, stand for
Steven for that.
Um,

Stephanie (01:15:38):
for the fund to help?

Dani (01:15:40):
Yeah, for the fund to help the.
The students at BSU that arecoming out.
They're coming out.
So go check it out.
Please do, do they're, they'restill doing, they were coming
up, still having fundraisers andmy research, I couldn't tell the
youth the last time that theydid, like they're doing concerts
and stuff, so I can't tell youthe last time there was one.
I didn't write that down.
I should have a

Stephanie (01:15:58):
great cause Yeah, to get done, but you can

Dani (01:15:59):
definitely go find it.
So anyways.

Stephanie (01:16:02):
Thanks for listening you guys.
Um, I'm gonna need

Dani (01:16:04):
a hug after this one.
Steph.

Stephanie (01:16:05):
We need a big hug because what a roller coaster of
angry and sad and what the fuck?
And Steven, so uner, undeservedand just unnecessary.
Completely unnecessary what?
Brutal,

Dani (01:16:21):
ignorant, what Tragic loss people.
Yep.

Stephanie (01:16:24):
So anyway.
Fuck y'all that had anything todo with that.
Um, I don't really care that ifyou're up for parole or
anything.
No, I hope that you don't actthat way again, but I think you
should all rot and that's justmy personal opinion.
but thank you guys forlistening.
Thank you for being with us forspooky season.

(01:16:45):
once again, of course, if youhave any feedback or you wanna
get in contact with us, you canreach out to the Lethal
[e-mail].
we've got a TikTok, Instagram,Facebook.
Of course you can reach outthere.
We've got our silly littleHalloween TikTok that we'd love
you to watch.

Dani (01:17:01):
That's pretty cute.
Mm-hmm.
We love to do the ticky talkers.
We love it.
Try to entertain.
Besides, doing our research,it's kind of a little fun
release.
It brings us

Stephanie (01:17:10):
a little bit of brightness.
Yeah.
In all of this, shittiness.
So,'cause we talk about a lot ofsad things, heavy subjects.
you might hear some PSAs movingforward at the end of our
episodes just'cause we thinkit's important to touch on the
type of really sticky subjectsthat we have and provide
resources.
So, upcoming, you'll hear that.

(01:17:30):
Otherwise.
Danny, thank you for doing thework and the research on this
episode.
That was obviously verychallenging.
And any last thoughts?

Dani (01:17:39):
I'm just sad, right?

Stephanie (01:17:43):
thanks again guys.
Have a great week.
Have a good night week.

Dani (01:17:46):
Love you.
Bye bye.
Hey friends, just checking in tosay that we all struggle
sometimes.
mental illness is more commonthan most people realize.
One in five adults in the USexperience it every year.
Anxiety, depression, bipolarThese aren't signs of weakness.

(01:18:09):
They're health conditions thatdeserve treatment and
compassion, just like diabetesor heart disease.
If you're struggling, you don'thave to do it alone.
The 9 8 8 suicide and crisishotline is available 24 7.
Call or text nine eight eight toconnect with trained crisis
counselors who will listen andhelp you through tough moments.

(01:18:29):
Veterans can press one afterdialing 9, 8, 8.
To connect directly with theVeterans Crisis line for young
people.
The Trevor Project offers 24 7support for lgbtq plus youth.
Call 1 8 6 6 4 8 8 7 3 8 6 Ortext start 2, 6 7, 8.

(01:18:50):
6, 7, 8.
Remember, asking for help is nota weakness.
It is an act of strength.
You matter and recovery ispossible.