Tough Love Turned Me Into the Builder I am Today.

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
When you're an apprentice you're like oh, this
guy's just grinding my gears.
The turnover feeds the problem.
I don't expect my apprenticesto do anything I won't do on
site either.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
I think numbers are very misunderstood.
After my apprenticeship I waslike I owe this guy so much.
Your wealth is created on howyou spend money, not how you
make money.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Success for me isn't making more and more money.
All jobs have profit if you'redoing things right.
All jobs have profit if you'redoing things right.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
G'day guys.
Welcome back to another episodeof Level Up.
We are back in the shed thisafternoon for another cracking
episode, something a little bitdifferent today.
If you're watching this onYouTube or Instagram wherever
you're seeing it you'll noticethat I've got my arm in a sling
because I cut half my finger offlast week.
So hopefully we'll get throughthis podcast and, yeah, it won't

(00:49):
be in too much pain or whatever.
But I appreciate all the shoutouts from everyone that watches
the podcast.
It was absolutely unbelievablehow many people reached out to
me over the weekend, so I reallyappreciate that.
But getting onto today's episodegot a real quiet achiever here
with us today.
Today's episode um got a realquiet achiever here with us
today.
Um, that I think it's going tobe good to dive into and, uh,

(01:09):
dig a little bit deeper into howhe's got to where he is.
But, um, josh murray from jmbuilt.
How are you, mate?
Thanks for having me, dwayne.
So I just made sure I got thename right because I thought it
might have been bill, but hesaid bill.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
Bill was already gone yeah, that was one of probably
the first things in business isyou go to the accountant and
register your name and you'relike what's left, and then
that's where we went.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
You're like me, mate.
Just DPS construction is likepretty, not very creative.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
There wasn't much going on when I first started.
It was just like yeah, let'sjust get a business name and
have a go.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
So, mate, I'm really keen to dive into your story
because you do some crackingjobs and you're a very quiet guy
, from what I can tell, and youkeep to yourself a little bit
and you're doing incredible work.
So where's it all come from?

Speaker 1 (02:04):
I think, business-wise, I've watched my
old man for my whole life.
Is he in the industry?
No, he's not in the industry,which is crazy.
He's just a sole trader and Ijust watched him grow his
business.
Running a business, I think, isthere's just so many things

(02:26):
that you can do for your ownlife.
You gotta take it seriously andgo into it.
But I think building for me itwasn't.
I wasn't called to building.
I wasn't like I'm gonna be abuilder.
At age eight I, um, I leftschool, ended up like could have
gone to university but, yeah,deferred, worked for my dad
who's an auto electrician forlike a year and he kind of said,
mate, what are you doing?

(02:48):
You got to do an apprenticeshipor go to uni.
And at that point I was likeI'd spent so much time in school
learning stuff that I didn'tthink I needed in life and I was
like I think I'm gonna do atrade, did work for my dad for
probably a year and a half andthen I really just didn't.
I just went this isn't for me.
He wanted it was big pressureto take over the business and I

(03:12):
was like, nah, I just I wasn't.
I could do the work easily,remembered everything he taught
me.
Yeah, but I just I knew I wasgood, I was good with my hands,
so I did a trial in carpentryand then I went yeah, this is
what I wanted to do and buildinghouses seemed more up my alley
and then got an apprenticeshipwhich kind of also went badly as

(03:36):
well.
At the start Was that locally inBrisbane, so back then group
like all trades had just kickedoff.
Oh, yeah, so I went into alltrades and got in with like a
big project home builder.
It was a crew, they had likemultiple apprentices and
everything was just screamingand yelling and get this done.

(03:59):
They didn't care.
And then I did that for abouteight months and watched just
apprentices coming and goingevery week going is this, the
industry, like this is wild.
And then there was a localbuilder back at Elchester and I
started telling him about myexperiences and he was like we
might have a guy leaving in acouple of months If he does jump

(04:22):
on board and see if you can getout of that mess.
So, yeah, yeah, I just went.
Oh, I'm gonna take this.
So got on with mike and he, um,yeah, he taught me everything
we needed.
Um, sorry, getting emotionalhere, um going back to the past,
but yeah, mike.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
I think that's awesome, mate, because I like,
I'm like you, like I am sograteful for what my bosses like
.
At the time, I didn'tappreciate as much as I think I
should have but when I thinkback now like I'm so grateful
for the skills that they'vegiven me, especially.
I'm not sure if you listen to arecent podcast we do with craig
stewart.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
We talked about a lot of the yeah, so that was a big
one.
Like for me, mike, like whenyou're an apprentice you're like
, wow, this guy's just grindingmy gears.
Yeah, after my apprenticeship Iwas like I owe this guy so much
.
Yeah, um, yeah, and he the wayhis career ended, was it's quite

(05:24):
bad as well for him.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah, did he um like have you ever reached out to him
and told him that um?

Speaker 1 (05:31):
probably not because, like I'm a man bad communicator
, but, um, yeah, like I owe himand another boss of ours,
richard, like the world really.
Um, mike taught me everything,taught you how to like.
He taught you how to like thinkfor other people early on,
which, when you're at a thirdyear apprentice and he would he
would make himself theapprentice and like make you be

(05:55):
the boss, which was like it waspretty hard, yeah.
And when you're a third year,you're like, oh, this is so much
stress.
But when, when you go out to bea carpenter, like I think a lot
of guys these days aren'tlearning that to think for other
people all day, they just want,all right, is that my role for
the day?
Should I, should I do this?

(06:15):
Should I do that?
But a good chippy, like, ifyou're working the team you
should be thinking about, allright, am I keeping x, y and z?
Are they busy in the cornerover there?

Speaker 2 (06:24):
yeah and um, but every trade, like every trade, I
don't know.
I know I piss people off when Isay this, but I, I think our
industry is full of people thatshould not be qualified, but
they, they, just everyone thinksit's, it's a time thing, like
you do your three or four yearsand that's it, you're you're a
qualified person.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
But yeah, no, because when I finished my time.
It was like mike was like therewas those incentives were
coming off to sign you off early, and um, he was just like, well
, what am I going to benefit outof it?
And I'm like 100, like, yeah,what are you going to benefit
out of?
Like you'll pay me more orwhatever.
And I, I understood that there.
And then I was like, yeah, it'sa business decision.

(07:04):
Four-year apprenticeship, yeah.
But yeah, it was like I thinkthe way the industry works, like
if you, if you come out of yourtime, like there's just so much
you've got to learn, and I'mvery wary when we hire guys and
guys are like obviously just outof their time, a lot of them
are chasing the dollar, liketrying to catch up on their
apprenticeship, which, yeah, Ithink these days they're earning

(07:25):
quite good money.
They earn ridiculous money.

Speaker 2 (07:28):
But everyone it's another topic that really shits
me.
Like people just expect to getpaid more and expect their
employees to pay for theirlifestyle.
Yeah, pretty much Like everyone.
Like I say this to people allthe time now like getting ahead
in life, whatever you think iswealthy, it's not about what

(07:50):
money you make, it's about whatmoney you spend.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
And it doesn't matter if you're someone that earns
$200 a week or $2 million a week.
Your wealth is created on howyou spend money, not how you
make money.
And it really suits me thatapprentices especially think
that just because they've signedthat piece of paper off, yeah,
they can go straight onto thetradies.

Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah salary so, yeah, I think that's that's something
I'm struggling with, with thegeneration coming through.
Like I'm a bit younger than you, but 39 I think I was still
raised under the last of theyeah, the taskmasters, but I
think, um, yeah, there's just alot of everyone just thinks we
owe them something now as a boss.
Yeah, like, I think a couple ofpodcasts ago you touched on the

(08:33):
christmas party thing was likewhat are we going to give you?
Where am I going to take you?
It's like what are you going togive me?
yeah, there's like six of youemployed, or yeah, what did you
get me?
A carton of beer.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
It's like it's just a different way the world
operates and, look, I think itis what it is.
But I really like I just reallyappreciate that I was able to
learn in that time period, yeah,but the the flip side of that
is, I really feel for youngpeople, like probably in the
last 10 to 15 years and rightnow coming through their time, I

(09:12):
think it's really difficult,like something I've really
highlighted lately and I'mreally trying hard to work in my
team.
Like I know there'll be somepeople out there that have
worked for me over the yearsthat would hear this and go
bullshit, like that's not whatit was when I was there and I
get that, yeah, but I'm sofocused now on taking the
pressure off my team, like don'tworry about the time, don't

(09:34):
worry about the money, like yes,it's got to be done efficiently
and stuff, but we have to putteam a time into our apprentices
because if we don't, it justputs more pressure on everyone.
So we've got to slow down andspend more time with them.
A hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Like touching on, like through my apprenticeship.
I couldn't have been morefortunate to be the only
apprentice, so, yeah, anythingthat the tradesmen were doing,
they're teaching me.
Yeah, and yeah, I've tried todo that in my business as well.
Like, I've got two apprenticesnow that are at the same point,
which I will try to avoid I justnot having them at the same

(10:12):
level, so they get their owncare and training each year.
Um, but yeah, in the past we'veonly ever had one, so we can
really like, in that three and ahalf years or whatever they're
getting signed off in now yeahteach them as much as we can
yeah, we're pretty similar.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
Like I, I don't like to have any more than one
apprentice for every sort of twoto three tradies like it.
Actually, it quite annoys mewhen I see builders that will
have one tradie and four.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
Yeah, I see a lot of crews these days, with a lot of
young kids running big jobs yeahbut um, yeah, and, but then
same again.
Like I don't expect myapprentices to do anything I
won't do on site either, like umfrom bailing out mud out of a
pier hole yeah, yeah, it's gotto be done.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
It doesn't matter what level if, whether you're a
director or yeah supervisor, orlike the owner, like whoever
like it's, it's got to be doneyou're just getting into it.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
So if, if they don't have that attitude, and well,
they quickly learn that I'll doit, and then I think if they see
me in the mud with them,they'll get a bit of respect and
they're like, yeah, well, Ishould be doing it yeah so, and
then I'm fortunate enough tohave hired one of the guys I did
my time under as well, and, um,yeah, I'll be trying to keep

(11:24):
jade unemployed till till theday he dies, like he's just so
he taught you, yeah, and nowyou've put him on as like a
supervisor or lead carpenter orsomething yeah, so he's my lead
carpenter and um supervisor, buthe just, he just loves being on
the tools, like, yeah, everyweekend he's total tools or

(11:44):
whatever, buying whatever heneeds to buy.
But I don't know if I wassupposed to say that, but, um,
he I've, I would give him theavenue to be a supervisor, but
he just loves, just lovesworking and um, I've said that
to him.

Speaker 2 (11:57):
I said, mate, if you're 60 and you're still
driving gear around for us yeah,yeah, I think it's important to
highlight for, like people tofeel comfortable to know that
it's okay to to stay a carpenteror yeah, all those types of
things as well, and I like a lotof our jobs now there's a lot
of high spec and he'll push backon me and I don't want to read

(12:21):
that and I get that and but he'sour go-to man for problem
solving.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
So I'm like, yeah, I'm fine with whatever avenue he
wants to take, but he's just soloyal and I know he's really
good with our apprentices liketeaching them how to look after
houses tools I think everybusiness needs to get.
You've got to find that guy andtry to try to look after them,

(12:50):
because they're important yeah,do you find with those like
we've?

Speaker 2 (12:53):
we've got a couple of those guys, but I find those
like, as good as they arethey're, they're really hard on
the younger guys because theyjust expect so much of them so
yeah, he's, he's, he gives thema hard time, but it's it's.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
It's tough love, but it's not mean love.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, but yeah, I think it's hard like young
people don't?

Speaker 1 (13:14):
like no, they either take it one way or go the other.
Yeah, um, but I think when theysee how much time he'll take to
teach them something, when thatwhat they don't know, then
they'll take a bit of ribbingfor yeah, there's very like.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
Resilience is almost getting buried, like common
sense, isn't it?
There's very little resiliencefrom people like you said, like
they, they take it one way orthe other yeah, it's not, um,
they don't see that that couldjust be.
That's the type of person theyare.
Or, and I think, like I try andreally explain to my team now

(13:50):
and my younger guys, like it'sthere's a lot of pressure, like
the jobs have to be done, yeah,to a certain level of quality.
They've got to be done in acertain time frame.
You've you've got other tradescoming and going that things
have to be ready for.
You've got clients expectationsto live up to.
Then, obviously, as a businessowner, things have to be done or

(14:12):
you don't make money.
So there's like everybody haspressure on them.
And a lot of the time when youget people in your business like
lead carpenters and supervisorsand things that take their jobs
really seriously, they can letthat pressure build up and then
they take that pressure out onthe younger guys.
And that's another thing thatI'm really trying hard to work
with my team on like it doesn'thave to be like that, like we

(14:34):
just we've got to.
Sometimes you've got to slowdown to go forward.
Yeah 100.

Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah, I think I think the deadlines of the job, like
we really I'm not, I'm not up.
The guys like every day, likeyou had to achieve, had to
achieve that.
Like I kind of I try to pricemy jobs as in I know that if I
was there it should take me that, but they're never going to do
it as quick as me.
Um, but, yeah, I don't, I don'tride my guys saying we have to

(15:00):
achieve this today, but I thinkthey definitely know that like
seven to four, they're there towork.
Yeah, um, don't, don't bedicking around on site.
Yeah, I'm not, I'm not going togive you a hard time.
If you're giving me a hardday's work, I'll well, it's
about value, isn't it?

Speaker 2 (15:16):
yeah, like it's one of the most common like,
whenever I talk about on thepodcast and we do teasers um
relating to um, hourly rates orpeople's pay and things, it's
one of the hot topics thateveryone start like we'll ask
questions.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yeah, I love I love jumping on facebook builders and
seeing that.

Speaker 2 (15:34):
It just blows my mind and like the way I deal with
everything now in all businessesis I basically just tell people
look, I'll pay you whatever youwant.
If you want 200 bucks an hour,I'll pay you 200 bucks an hour.
But do you know, if I pay you200 bucks an hour, you need to
be making my business 600 to 800.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
Yeah, I think a lot of people out there like it's
the human nature to look afteryourself first but, it just a
lot of people just need torealize hey, am I making my boss
money?
There's my worth, but then he'semploying me.
There has to be a benefit to mywage, yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
Well, if the company's not making money,
they're not going to have a job.

Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah, so I think that's for me like scaling up
and all the staffing issues andstuff like that is always'm not
I'm not the biggest risk takerout there, but um, numbers, to
me is is the big one.
So, yeah, we kind of so how didyou this?

Speaker 2 (16:34):
this is I love this topic.
I love the numbers, like howdid you um, have you done
anything?

Speaker 1 (16:40):
mentoring, coaching, learning to get to know your
numbers, or it's trial and errorso the first couple of years
were definitely trial and trialand error and it was like I
think I just kept palming it offlike, oh yeah, you're just a
small business and each yearyou'll do better and better.
And then I think I got to fiveyears and I was like shit, I
could be just working forsomeone.
Just what am I doing all these?

(17:01):
hours looking at the numbers andgoing fuck my carbon is earning
the same amount as I am yeah,and then like we turn 10 years
next month and the last twoyears I've really been focusing
on one.
Our quoting system has justturned around and then, just
knowing the numbers of all ofour overheads and just yeah,

(17:22):
feedback from our accountantsand she'll be saying you've got
to raise operating expenses hereand there and what we're at.
And I haven't done any likebusiness mentoring.
We've recently joined a companyin Melbourne and it's all like
about entering our weekly datain, because I was like at a
point at 10 years I was like,okay, I can keep running this

(17:42):
same show for the rest of mylife or we can just keep getting
better.
One percent a year, that's whatwe need to do, whether I'm off
the tools or wherever thebusiness goes from here, but
like we can build good houses.
But at the end of the day, thenumbers are what matters for
your family, the um for everyonethat's listening.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
Go and check out their instagram jm built.
They bloody do great work, butnumbers are incredibly important
.
I think numbers are verymisunderstood.
Yeah, um, in our industry, um,from everything from people
understanding, like, the hourlyrates they need to pay people
and then understanding, like, ifyou're paying someone a certain

(18:25):
amount, what you actually needto be charging them out at um.
Then there's obviously all thequoting.
Um, like our software quote isis going nuts because it comes
with a huge, big preset list ofcategories and items for trades
and builders, because I knowthat's one area I uh really not

(18:47):
struggle with, but just quotingwas always starting from scratch
and so there's quite oftenthings that I'd miss here and
there, whereas now we know, like, if you start with the biggest
list possible, everything thatcould possibly ever go in a
house and delete items that youdon't need, it's a far better
way than trying to think, ohshit, what do I need?

(19:07):
oh, like, otherwise, you just itdoesn't matter how many times
you flick through the plans, youjust miss stuff.
Like so that's the next thing.
Like quoting is like I think,underrated, yeah, and that's why
we, like in live life, buildwith our elevate members.
We do our paid as a consultantprocess, so, um, you get
involved and you're paid to putthe time into investing into the

(19:29):
client and knowing what's goingon.
And then, when it comes torunning costs of a business,
like we know now from all of ourdata, like over 80% of builders
are trading insolvent becausethey're just taking money from
the business Like they're notpaying themselves salary.
They don't even know how towork out what salary they should
be paid.
Nine times out of ten they'reworking for the same or less

(19:50):
than what they're payingcarpenters, and it's the same in
any trades-based business.
You get a lot of plumbers andsparkies and things that are
working for the same money ornot much more than what they're
paying their tradies.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
I know when you first start.
For me, I was just always payall the workers, pay all the
materials, and then I was likewhatever was left?
And then I was like I've got tobuild up my working capital.
So there was those first fewyears of sacrificing.
But now it's at a point whenyou know what floats your
company, when you're gettingbelow a point, you're like all

(20:23):
right, are we 30 days from adraw like it's, yeah, it's.
Do you pay yourself a salary?
Yeah, yeah.
So I pay myself weekly with theboys on the pay run.

Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, um you've got to treat.
I think I think some peoplestruggle with that because they
they're like oh, I'm thebusiness owner, like I, just I
can just pull the money out ofthe business.
Like you, you've really got toget in the mindset that you are
an employee to the business yeah, like it's not an astronomical
figure, but it's.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
I just class myself as a carpenter pay, pay myself a
wage, just as like they do, asthe pay run, and then, oh mate I
need to have talked to youabout that yeah, we need.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
You need to figure out the role you're playing and
then pay yourself accordingly oh, yeah, so we still.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
we still access the money through the through the
year for myself and talk to theaccountant when to pull it out.
But yeah, each week I'm paid asa wage with the boys.
There's no like, oh, I'm notpaying myself a year.
Yeah, like we're running at apoint where I get paid weekly.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, like just because it's your business
doesn't mean you don't get paida salary.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
No no.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
Ultimately, you want to pay yourself a salary, cover
all your company overheads andyour company makes a profit.
Yeah, and that's a successfulbusiness.
Yeah, that's a sustainablebusiness 100.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
And then I think I think this, the the runs on the
board in our industry is it'ssuch a long time, like the first
couple of years, you're like,holy shit, I've got, I'm
learning how to build houses forone, because I've just like,
now I'm a builder.
And then then you slowlyrealize, all right, there's not
that much money left in thisthan I thought it was.

(21:49):
And then your mind well, ifyou're my way inclined, your
mind turns into there needs tobe more juice in the squeeze
here, and so the numbers is moreimportant.

Speaker 2 (22:01):
So it's a I feel like again, it's it's the same for
all tradies, builders, evenarchitects, designers like a lot
of architects, designersactually struggle to make money.
They don't understand theircosts and those types of things.
But like I feel like withbuilders, it's everything's
exaggerated because you'redealing with such big numbers.
So if you're like this is whereI got caught out, Like I

(22:25):
definitely didn't know mynumbers and like basically went
from getting my builder'slicense to, within three years,
turning over eight, nine milliondollars, yeah, and so, even
though I was nowhere nearpricing the jobs correctly, I
used to just write line itemsdown, like do all my quoting on
pieces of paper had no ideawhatsoever, like I was doing

(22:49):
what it's always talked about,like just throwing the 10% on.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
I think the mentality of the public like is well, you
signed up $9 million worth ofwork, Dwayne, you earned 900
grand this year.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, it's like Not knowing that it actually took
out of that 9 million, itactually took 1.7 million to
actually run the business.
Yeah, so it's, yeah, I think,but because because the number's
so big, like you, so you youstart doing jobs and then you
you start employing people andthen you do more jobs and so the
turnover feeds the problem.
Yeah, so a lot of I believe alot of builders go their entire

(23:22):
career by doing this turnoverthey focus on the turnover and
each year their turnover grows abit and they get bigger jobs,
yeah, and they pull a bit ofmoney out of the company here
and there, and they manage justto just scrape through their
career and own a house, own thecars and have a reasonable
lifestyle.
But they've, they've, they'velived their entire life and

(23:43):
their entire career worriedabout cash flow, struggling to
have money and pay bills.
Yeah, and it's purely becausethe turnover's been there and so
it's this vicious cycle.
And then everyone thinks, ohshit, I'm struggling, I need to
make more money, I need moreturnover, but turnover's not the
answer no, I think.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
Once you know the size of your business and you
speak to your accountants like,you know your break evens, you
know what you need to turn overfor the year as a business.
But it doesn't mean the little$200,000 job around the corner
has as much profit in it as that1.3 million dollar job that
took you the whole year.
Yeah, so you just for for us,like we look at what we should

(24:26):
try to ideally hit for the yearand it's not about, yes, we have
to be on these luxury homes, isit?
Does it fit our schedule?
Is it the right client?
Does it suit our location?
And then, yeah, obviously like,price it accordingly if they're
going to get the quality andthe service we give them, like
they're going to.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
Obviously it costs, costs, what it costs if you want
to build with us I love like itwe're talking about before we
started recording, but um, youjust touched on it then again.

Speaker 1 (24:52):
Like I love that you've set boundaries, yeah,
like I think early on you werejust, you're just like where's
the next job, who is it, where'sit going to be?
You, just, you're just takingit.
But I think, as you go on likeif you, if you were starting out
again and you knew, if you knewbetter ways, you'd listen to

(25:14):
advice from builders likeyourself.
But, um, yeah, once youobviously get to a point like
we're 10 years in, you don'twant to be 10 years in and still
like where's my next job?
How much do I need next monthto cover that?
Like you should have a systemby now that things should be
getting easier.
And yeah, you don't want, youdon't want to be like, oh, I'll

(25:34):
have to work, I have to takethat job on because we've got a
gap.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
Like you should have time to plan, time, to quote
yeah, work, work yourself outmonths in advance so like
there's things you just touchedon, like knowing the area you
want to work in, knowing thetype of client you want to work
for, yeah, even like you weresaying, like figuring out how
many jobs you can fit in theyear, like doing those simple

(25:58):
steps just takes the pressureoff, doesn't it?

Speaker 1 (26:01):
yeah, I think I don't like putting myself in a point
where we've got plenty of workon the table and go oh josh,
here's this awesome lead, here'sa million dollar house.
We need it done now.
Um, we're not about all right.
Let's go hire six guys and takeon that million dollar house.
It's, it's not our process.
Oh, we build up our employees,train them how we want things

(26:25):
done.
I think if you go into businessto take on as much work as you
can and just rapidly hiringstaff here and there it's, I
don't know.
That's my opinion.
Oh, it's 100%, millions ofbuilders probably doing it.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
Well, you only got to see all the ads on social media
.
Now Every marketing company istrying to get into our industry
and then you got so like I feellike in the last, even just the
last three months.
There is so many people callingthemselves coaches, mentors,
trainers, and in in our industry.
A lot of them are young peoplethat don't have the runs on the

(26:58):
board and may have had a coupleof years, or they think they've
had success yeah, but theyhaven't really been in business
long enough to make it throughhard times or know their numbers
clearly and all those types ofthings, and so you got all this
noise out there.
But the one thing I hate seeingis like everyone seems to be
like just market, market, market, grow, grow, grow, increase

(27:19):
your turnover yeah, so, andthat's just the biggest recipe
for more stress, more disaster,less money yeah, like 100 bigger
hole in the ground.

Speaker 1 (27:29):
I think if someone's not the mentor, like say, you've
got your program, obviouslyit's, it's definitely helping a
lot of builders.
But if you're in the mindset of, like I, I've got to get bigger
, I've got to get more money,and you just rapidly go into
that, like it's just such aquick spike decline with the

(27:49):
amount of money we deal with,you can, yeah.
So I think, yeah, you need to,you need.
So that's what the like, thebusiness course we're doing now
is.
It's really like small numbers.
Like you look at your staffcosts, you look at your, your
whip and you're like, okay,we've got that, we can.
We could raise hourly rateshere to hire that guy.

(28:10):
So it's more, we're work inprogress yeah, so we have three
things that we fill out and Ithink it just it gives you like
that forecasting tool, whichwhich you're big on as well.
So I think if you're divinginto this industry, thinking
it's just all about throwing itout on seek and getting six guys
it's, it's the wrong way aboutit it's funny.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
I like this is a real life example.
Um, literally two days ago umhad a young builder called up to
do a inquiry call about ourlive life build elevate program.
Um has a big tax bill.
Um just come back from overseasneeds to grow the business
again.
Has only been in business acouple few years.

(28:52):
Um needs to get systems andprocesses in place.
Doesn't doesn't know who hisideal client is, doesn't know
what his numbers are like, justeverything that I know we could
help him.
Yeah, yeah, and to me it's ano-brainer.
And then I get a messageyesterday afternoon saying oh,
dwayne, thanks very much foryour time.
I'm going with this othercourse because I need to really

(29:19):
focus on my marketing.
Yeah and yeah, exactly like Ijust said.
Then it's very hard, I think,in our industry because there's
so many people making noise thathave never run a building
business or succeeded running abuilding business or been in
building business for 10, 15years, and so everything sounds,
yeah, nice and glossy and rosyand this.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
I think there's just this so much smoke and mirrors
in our industry.
Yeah, it's insane.
When I first started, you getcaught up in I think instagram
was just kicking off and you itwas has heaps of positives and
heaps of negatives and you'relike man, how is that guy
getting so many jobs and what'sgoing on here?

Speaker 2 (29:58):
but yeah, wait, I know, I know builders that are
spending like they're turningover $3 to $5 million and I know
from what the conversations Ihave with them that I can tell
instantly now if someone'stalking shit and that they don't
know their numbers and stuff.
Yeah, and they're spending$100,000 to $150,000 on social

(30:20):
media marketing.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
They email me every, they pepper me and I just I look
at what they want to charge youfor the week and I'm like, for
what?
It's just a little post.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
I can do that, do that myself but, like anyone
that spends that sort of moneyis going to have a lot of work.
Yeah, but a lot of work doesn'tmean you're making money it
doesn't.
And then nine times out of ten.
It means you're more stressedand you're actually going
backwards.

Speaker 1 (30:41):
Yeah, you're just creating a bigger hole for you
to fall in, and I think theolder I get, like it's success
for me isn't making more andmore money, it's freeing up my
time.
Yeah, 100%, like 10 years oflike my boy he just turned six
and like it's a hard slogbuilding industry and two young

(31:03):
boys yeah, but yeah, gettingyour time back is more important
, yeah, at this stage in my life, than earning more money, I
think.

Speaker 2 (31:14):
Mate, I feel for you.
I feel for you and I think it'sreally great that you're so
aware of that.
Yeah, because I've talked aboutit heaps of times, I feel sorry
for my oldest daughter becauseI hardly saw her for the first
couple of years because that thebuilding industry, just um, and
not knowing how to run mybusiness just took me away from
her.
But it's, it's one another oneof those things like I'd love to
hear your theory on it, but,like everybody that reaches out

(31:37):
to me wants time, yeah, but theywon't invest the time to get
that time.

Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yeah, like you're not going to work a small amount of
hours, like I'm not saying likeyou can do like 20 hours a week
and it's going to begangbusters for you, but you're
still going to put the hard workin.
But just that constant thinkingabout work and scheduling in an
hour to yourself a week, ormaking sure we do like I kids
kid drop off each morning,that's big, that's awesome.
My wife goes to work three daysa week, so is she didn't want

(32:09):
like she don't want to let hercareer go down.
Like she's quite successful aswell, so that's been my driver
is like making sure keepingeveryone happy.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
Um, but yeah, obviously you're going to
business to earn more money, butlike your life needs to be easy
as well, yeah, so it's insane,like we, we know, like from
everything we have and we do now, like you, like time is
everyone's biggest frustration,like and the reality is that
it's just they're notprioritizing their time

(32:43):
correctly and when you personalschedule and you prioritize your
time I don't know if I've evertalked about on this podcast,
actually, but I'll talk aboutnow like there's this have you
heard the story about the glassjar?
no have I said this show on thispodcast probably 100 times.
All right, I'm going again.
But um, for some I'd heard thisstory 100 times and I don't

(33:05):
know why it just it neverresonated with me and it does
now, because I understand it.
But basically, like someonegives you a glass jar and gives
you a pile of rocks and saysfill the jar up, put as much as
you can in there, you put allthe rocks in there until it's
overflowing.
You cannot fit another rock inthere, yeah, and they ask you is

(33:26):
it full?
You say yeah, well, it can'tfit anymore in there.
Then they give you pebbles.
So then you pour the pebbles in, the pebbles go and they fall
in the gaps all around thebigger rocks and you say it's
like it's full now.
And then they give you sand.
You tip sand into it and thesand fills all the little
crevices up.
You think it possibly cannotfit any more in it.

(33:47):
And then they give you a jug ofwater and you pour the water
and the water just soaks inbetween everything.
And now that that jar is fulland I don't know at what point
this really resonated with me.
But that's how we all live ourlives.
But most people are onlyputting in the big rocks.
They have all this other stuffto fill their jar but they feel

(34:11):
that they because all their bigrocks which is their wrong
priorities normally, that theydon't have any time.
Yeah, and so the way I plan andwhat we teach our guys and
members in Elevate now likepersonal scheduling, is the key
to your success.
So you've got to treat so mypersonal time is my big rocks.

(34:35):
So my wife and I do 12, 18months personal plans.
We plan all our family holidays, long weekends.
We leave weekends free forcatching up with friends and
stuff.
But family and personal are ourbig rocks.
Take kids school, pick it, pickkids up, cook dinners, all
those types of things.
And most people freak outbecause they're like, oh shit,

(34:58):
if, if I put everything I wantto do in there, I'm not going to
have any time left to do what Ineed to do to keep life turning
, keep the cash flow coming andall those types of things.
But once you've laid out acalendar, because the other, the
other really scary thing iswhen you do this the first time,
when you have a big 12 monthcalendar on your wall and you go
through it.
So our thing is like if thekids are off, we're off, so all

(35:19):
school holidays crossed out onout.
And when you've got it on a bigwall and you're highlighting
all this and you're like holyshit, that only leaves that
amount of time.
And then you put in the longweekends you want to have, and
then you might put in the datenights or the days you want to
start later, whatever, and theneverything just keeps coming
back and back and back.

(35:40):
And then, once you've got yourbig rocks in there, you and then
, once you've got your big rocksin there, you've got to fit in
everything else around it and itis unbelievable, like I know
myself with my personality andpersona and those types of
things like I, I need structure,yeah yeah, I think default
diary like it is massive, likein our industry.
You can just go on thiswhirlwind of wasted time every

(36:03):
day well, everyone wants to hold, like everyone, everyone, like
you'd know, like as soon as youwalk onto a job site even if
people have, masses are justhe's here yeah, even if
everyone's got the information,they know what they're doing.
Yeah, they'll come and chew yourear off and you'll waste half a
day before you know it.
But it's incredible once youget those big rocks in, get all
your personal stuff in there andthen actually plan it out.
So, like my, I talk about thisall the time.

(36:25):
Like my, my calendar's donefrom 5 am in the morning to 9 pm
at night, and people think it'scrazy, but I block out time for
myself, I block out time likecamille and I block out time to
spend together time with thekids, do personal activities and
things.
But if I don't have thatstructure, yeah, I lose so much

(36:45):
time, even things.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
For me now the diary thing is is where we're headed
um.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
It's just you gotta just do it on google may on your
phone like share it.
Do it like highly recommend youdo it with your, like your
partner.
So camille and I see eachother's calendars.
Yeah, mate, there's no checking.

Speaker 1 (37:01):
No, if one of us wants to do something is the
note still on the fridge of whenwe're supposed to be going to
dinner or whatever.
But but yeah, diaries, the big,the big goal for me this year
is running out of a structureddiary and stop stop wasting as
much time and sticking to,sticking to my schedule and yeah
, and then put the time in.

Speaker 2 (37:21):
For me, the next thing after personal is, well,
family.
I should say Family is my bigrocks.
Yeah, the next thing for me isme personally, like training,
catching up with mates, workingon myself, personal development.
And then it's business.
Business is my sand and waterand it's incredible how much

(37:43):
business you can fit in whenyour days are scheduled, yeah,
and you're focused.
Even like quoting is a big onefor me.
I I think it's every builderand tradies nightmare.
Like you just dread that timein the office that you've got to
spend quoting.
So like in my schedule it'sit's locked in there like an
hour here, two hours there, like.
So camille will put in myschedule two hours on such and

(38:05):
such job, air on such such job,and I just know that that when
I'm in the office, that timethere I've got a quote.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
Yeah, I mean, for quite like quoting is like it's
another conversation as well.
But like in in the first days,or builders just think they
allocate the hate quotingbecause they're quoting with
such like are they quoting towin the job they could?
There could be four builders init, so they've already got 25
chance of winning the job.
So all of a sudden you hatequoting because you're not

(38:30):
winning your work.
So if you've got a structure toyour quoting system, like you,
you when your client touchesbase with you and you've got
that system in place, thatyou've done the feasibility, and
are they going to jump ontoyour process and like, obviously
you've got your pack process,we have a similar little thing.
But for me, now quoting, areyou getting paid for your quotes

(38:52):
?
yeah, so we have a little feestructure yeah, proposal however
, yeah, that's how we like tocall it as well.
Um, but yeah, like in the past,that's kind of what broke me.
That covid era was just I wasjust trying to get bigger and
just quoting and quoting, andquoting and trying to get work
from that designer and reachingout to that designer, and I just

(39:13):
I just got to the end of theyear and I was like what the
hell did I just do all that forlike that's why I hate quoting
so much, like I'm no one has anyidea how much time this is
taking.
Yeah, and so then that was thatbig light bulb moment.
I was like this is my processnow and I don't need to focus on
quoting now.
It's like, well, when theclient comes to us, it's like,

(39:36):
well, I'm invested in your quotenow, because you're invested,
we're going to make thisrelationship work.
And quoting for me now is like,but how much better is the
entire relationship?

Speaker 2 (39:47):
yeah, like you get that investment up front, you
get more involved through allthe design process.
Like you build trust, you build.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
Respect you build transparency and if you're stuck
in that tender situation like aguy who's tendering isn't
taking his eight tradesmen toyour house on a renovation and
taking the time he's got no time, he's just looking about how he
can come in the cheapest to winit yep 100 and um so it blows
my mind.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
But like people, so many people just think that
tenders process is the way to golike, yeah, we had.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
We had a few designers call us in the last
six months and the minute thattender word comes out, it's like
no, it's, there's enough workout there, I'll happy to do a
bathroom reno.
Over tendering on that huge job.
It's just yeah.
It's not about the size of thejob, but it's that process.
If the client values me comingto their house, solving all

(40:40):
their problems and quoting thejob what they want done, that's
more important to me thanversing five builders that don't
know their numbers.
Who's trying to break into thatmarket?
It's just a waste of time and Ithink a lot of guys need to,
just they need to have thatlight bulb moment going.
Yeah, it's just so much wastedtime.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
And time is but how much does it?
Like it's not only time like I,I am so in love with our pack
process like it just, I believeevery single time we do it we're
just getting better and betterand better.
But, um, like I had a reallygreat example just today.
We had a design meeting um witha client and a building

(41:21):
designer and this particularproject it's it's a large home,
it's to to um house a youngfamily and their um parents yeah
, really, really special home.
And like, we've guided it withum, our project sheets and our
costs the entire way and madethem very aware what we think

(41:43):
it's going to cost.
But they've wanted to keeppushing the boundaries, um, to
see exactly what they want willcost.
So the way I like to talk aboutour pack process yours probably
similar.
Like I'm not there to controlit, I'm there to educate the
client, yeah, on what they wantor asking for will possibly cost
, and then it's up to them toeducate myself and the designers

(42:04):
what means value to them and soon this particular project,
like, even though we kepttelling them, hey, that's going
to be pushing your bud, likeyour project span, they wanted
to get there.
So the designer finished or dida preliminary design, we did a
first round of costings and Ididn't even get the first round

(42:24):
of costings finished and, uh, Icalled the designer, art, we had
a chat, called the client upand basically just said look
it's.
It's going to far exceed yourpro, what you're hoping to spend
, um, with all the things thatyou're hoping to get.
Yeah, let's have a meeting andwe'll talk through it.
So we had a meeting, we talkedthrough it, I explained to them

(42:44):
the way that it was heading and,from the things that I'd
already priced, gave them anestimate of where I thought it
would go to.
And they're like oh no, look,we don't want to waste your time
or our time, let's have a lookat what we can change.
And they're still getting thesame floor plan, the same size
house, still going to be anincredible home.

(43:04):
But we've been able to pull back.
Like originally it was going tohave all off-form concrete
ceilings, walls, like there'sover a million dollars worth of
concrete in this place.
Yeah, right.
But so the designer presentedthis design this morning, which
is still an incredible home.
It's just the main structuralmaterials have changed.
We're still going to have thesame joinery, the same

(43:30):
appliances, plumbing, fixturesand all those types of things.
But that would never havehappened in a tender scenario.
No, in a tender scenario theywould have drawn their their
wish list.
They would have wasted three,four, five, ten builders times
tendering it to be told threemonths later that it's twice
what they want to spend.
And then the the architect orthe designer would have charged
the client to redesign the wholehouse.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
Yeah, and this is when people call us now.
It's like if they've got theirda plans, like I kind of like,
oh good, you're not too faralong, yeah.
And then like, if they jump on,like the conversation we're
getting better at every timeselling it to the our customers,
but just like if you can't paya simple couple of thousand

(44:10):
dollars to get us on board, likeat the end of the day you can
have the best drawings on alittle piece of paper next year,
but you can't get that builtunless the builder has can get
the budget right.
And like, if you, if your priceis that you need to build it at
the end of the day to get acontract price to build it, yeah
.
So if you can't be at a pointwhere you're valuing that time

(44:31):
and the feedback and you just goto tender, like half the time
people aren't understanding thathalf of their stuff on their
pretty pages hasn't beenincluded because one, the
builder's just racing for thetender and the budget's not
really the issue, it's justwinning the job first.
But yeah, yeah, I think wewe're really good on now trying
to get the honesty out of theowner saying look, the more open

(44:54):
you are about your price, thebetter your build's going to be,
the better your result's goingto be.
Like you could level up thingshere, you could reduce things
there, whereas if you're stuckin that tender situation, you're
just quoting the plans and it'sjust like I don't, it's I don't
think it's good for for anyonelike and it's.

Speaker 2 (45:13):
It's quite frustrating because, you see it,
it's not just in ourresidential world like.
You see it all over the newsand the media all the time, with
big government projects andthings like the tender process
is ruined for everybody.
You see these infrastructureprojects where the winning
tender is $2 billion and then 12months later it's all over the
news oh, the project's still notfinished and it's $1.5 billion

(45:36):
over budget.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
I understand.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
And.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
I think with your platform, the more the community
realizes there's a better wayto price residential commercial.
Yeah, obviously, commercial isprobably a fair way away from it
, but residential is where itcan start and, yeah, help
builders, help the community.
Yeah, just a lot, a lot moreplans are going to make it from

(45:58):
pipe dreams to pieces of paperthat never got built.

Speaker 2 (46:01):
It's actually happening I've talked about this
before as well like thesimplest solution, I believe.
Like it blows my mind.
I know there's a few umarchitects, designers, out there
that do this, but a lot of themdon't.
Like I, just I've never beenable to work out.
If an architect designs a homeand it gets built, why don't

(46:22):
they contact the client or thebuilder at the end of the job,
check what the final pricing wasand then put it on their
records that that house, forthat that level of finish, that
size project, costs this amountof money?
Like to me it's just simple.
Like if you walk into anarchitect's office and they've
done a hundred projects yeah,and you like that one and it

(46:43):
costs five million dollars, whydo you think you're going to get
it done for three, yeah, yeah,and you like that one and it
costs five million dollars, whydo you think?

Speaker 1 (46:45):
you're going to get it done for three.
Yeah, like we, we do that withour, with our customers.
Like it should be easy for them.
Like if I show we get a set ofplans and I, and then I'll go,
well, this job on our socialmedia or website, it costs this.
So if you're adding that biggerpool or you're doing this like
that's your starting point toachieve that job that we've done

(47:06):
in the past, so it just it justgives them more clarity of what
I think.
They just think they get theirpiece of paper and there's a
square meterage rate, which it'sjust.
That's just another thing.
But yeah, I think after 10 years, there's just so much to learn
as a builder on site.
And then then pricing is thebiggest thing.
And then getting that system inplace to support yourself as a

(47:30):
business and be confident enoughto go to the owner that you're
actually wanting to help themget the job.
It's not like I have to winthis job.
Like you're in it together, youwant to give them a good product
and, at the end of the day, ifyou're overcharging the build
like it together, you want togive them a good product.
Yeah, and at the end of the dayif you're overcharging the
build like it's not going to goahead, so you're just going to
get stuck in a circle.
So you're pricing it honestlyand I think that's like well,

(47:52):
how our business is built on,like you're getting priced
honestly to get that set ofplans built.
Like we're not, we're not, wecan't build it to that budget
because we're squeezing in anextra 50k for ourselves.
It's that's what it's going tocost to build and that's what
the business costs to run it.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
Yeah it's that simple , like, literally, like if you
and that's like I am a hundredpercent firm believer like any
client that thinks gettingmultiple prices is going to help
their situation is kiddingthemselves because, like every,
it's like our industry is likenothing else, like it's not like

(48:28):
going to the supermarket orbuying a car or, um, even going
to the dentist and things.
Like every single builder runsa different business.
I mean it's a differentstructure it's not like you.

Speaker 1 (48:39):
you can still have multiple builders for your set
of plans, but instead of sayingfirst port of call, go and price
this, have a phone call, havean interview, get to know the
builder.
Because, yeah, for me anotherthing too is, like a lot of our
jobs now are pushing thateight-month mark, like you want
your client to be your friendduring the build.

(49:01):
It's a long time to be stuckwith customers if you're not
getting on or you're buttingheads.
So yeah, like if clients wantto shop something out, that's
fine, but shop it out in aninterview process.
I think not a monetary format.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
Yeah, 100%, 100%.
So, mate, what do you look forwith trades and things on your
jobs, or how do you keep up yourquality?

Speaker 1 (49:25):
So we've stuck with our trades for a long time.
Very rarely are we shopping ourplans out to take on new guys
because of price.
If you've come through oursystem and you're no longer
there, there's probablysomething that we weren't happy
with quality wise or yourcommunication and then, yeah, we

(49:47):
really look after our guys.
Yeah, like, our tyler andplumber have almost been with us
from the start and then we justdrum in that this is the
quality we want to achieve andthen, if they're on board with
that, you just give us honestpricing and you're our first
port of call for every job,unless you're sick or on
holidays or something.
But, yeah, building, buildingthat network up, I think, is

(50:10):
pretty crucial.
Um, I mean, like a lot ofbuilders, you can shop out heaps
of stuff and but you won't havethat relationship when you
you're you've got that plumberfor eight years or whatever, and
, um, he's going to be there foryou because it's got to be a
relationship like every, every,like your team, your contractors
, your suppliers, like it's gotto be relationships yeah.

(50:32):
So pricing is like I'm I'malways checking their pricing.
It's not like they're sendingme random numbers because I'm
like, well, your last job coststhat.
Yeah, explain to me why it'smore.
Yeah, and like I'm alwayswatching their numbers.
It's not like they know we'vegot another job with josh, but,
yeah, they give me honestpricing, they're paid straight
away and, yeah, quality is thebig thing, yeah.

(50:55):
So, yeah, we're not trying tojust try on you guys here and
there.
It's.
It's all about, yeah, as longas everyone's focus is
delivering the best you canpossibly do for that house.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
Um, what about like time frames and things like how
do you work your time?

Speaker 1 (51:11):
trade.
Yeah, so we try to.
Once we start the job, like wenotify yep, we've won it
straight away at contract.
And then I kind of just do likea monthly ballpark thing,
because not everything worksperfectly for us on renovations
to the t.
But yeah, we like definitelylook at the calendar and break
it up into those 12 months andthen we'll we'll get on the
email or phone and say plumbertyler, we're aiming for this

(51:34):
month.
Yeah, um, you do full jobschedules?
We're not.
We're not at a full jobschedule point at the moment
just purely because we don'ttake on huge amounts of work.
I've usually got enough time inthe pipeline to organise it on
the computer and run it that way.
But yeah, there is conflictingtimes every now and then when

(51:56):
guys are double booked, butgenerally the way I look after
our trades, they'll be there forus.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
So are you still doing a lot of the admin stuff?

Speaker 1 (52:05):
Yeah, so I'm doing a lot of the admin.
I've been on site a fair bit inthe past, but now I'm reducing
those hours on site as much aspossible.
Now We've got a good-sized teamwhere I can come and do what I
need to do and be on site.
But yeah, generally a lot of mystuff now is just scheduling
and making sure we're weeks,weeks out, everyone's notified

(52:29):
where we're at and telling theboys look, we're aiming for this
trade here, focus on this.
Um, so that's that's kind ofhow we do our scheduling now,
because I don't a lot of stuffon our jobs.
Um, if it's my god, I try toteach our guys to be super
flexible and what they're doingfor the day like if something
can't be finished there, youneed to be on it like we can

(52:51):
move over to here and keepourselves busy.
Yeah, um, so once our boys areset up on site, they're pretty
much there from start to finish.
I tell them every day like,don't be ringing me saying this,
what can we, we do, becausethey quickly learn.

Speaker 2 (53:05):
They've got to be thinking ahead.
Yeah, and exactly what you sayLike you can't be just focused
on what you're doing right now.
Like you need to make surethere's gear on site in case
something comes up.
You can't finish that, you canmove on to another part.

Speaker 1 (53:15):
So there's always bits and bits.
So, yeah, flexibility is a myguys.
There's always something to doon site.
Don't, don't just be stuck on.
Oh, we're completing thiscladding this week, yeah, if.
If you see that time's going toslow down because we're waiting
on something for there, makethe call.
Let's move to this area, yeah,and go there.
Um, but yeah, scheduling'ssomething that I'm going to

(53:37):
improve from here, like diary,and scheduling is our goals for
the business to improve.

Speaker 2 (53:42):
I'll give you.
You some tips, mate, after thepodcast.
So do you know like, do youknow?
So what's your role?
What's the role in yourbusiness?

Speaker 1 (53:51):
I think I wear still way too many hats.
Like I'm still.
I still don't like beingpigeonholed in the office full
time.
I still love throwing on thenail bag, but like realising now
where we're at and the sizewe're at now that my days need
to be spent doing better things.
Yeah, and I'm learning that,but I just, I still really love

(54:14):
working but, Mate, I need to getyou into Elevate.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
We need to identify you.

Speaker 1 (54:18):
I still really love working but yeah, the nail bag
is not on this year, it'sdefinitely not.
This year has been the big turnfor me.
Yeah, it's hard, isn't it, tostep back from site.
So I kind of call myself thesupervisor.
But then they know when I'mshut down in the office, that's
where I need to be.
So if I say I'm going home todo office work, I think you're a

(54:38):
project manager.
Yeah, probably.

Speaker 2 (54:41):
Yeah, you've got to really, because it ties back
into what we were talking aboutbefore with your numbers.
Like you, every everyone in abusiness needs to have certain
roles and tasks andresponsibilities and kpis and
those types of things, and youlike to be able to get your
business running efficiently,get your time back, all your
scheduling and those types ofthings.
Like you need to track everysingle hour you do, identify

(55:02):
what tasks that gets allocatedto and then, like that's how you
can get a business veryefficient, like when you can.
Like the other thing that Ilike to do and we teach our
members in elevate like onceyou've identified the tasks that
you do and what categories theyfall under, like start thinking
about them in three ways.
Like what ones do you lovedoing and you do every day?
Uh, what ones do you do butyou're not really efficient at?

(55:24):
and then, what ones do you?
Just you hate and you reallywould prefer to get someone else
to do them.
Yeah, and then that's where youcan start to really, in your
overheads, identify where youneed to employ people in the
business.
So obviously, if it's asupervisor, and that's, that's a
site cost.
But if it's in a va oradministration staff or possibly
a project manager, you can workthat cost into your overhead

(55:45):
cost so that every job movingforward you actually have the
money in the business to pay toemploy that person and that's
going to get your time back.
And the reality is it's notjust our building industry but
it's just businesses in general.
Most people are always likewhen I get the next job, or when
I save the next a certainamount of money, or when my bank
account's got this figure in it, or like there's all these,

(56:08):
what if?
yeah then I will employ, andreality is that very more often
than not, it never gets to thatpoint.
You get under pressure so youend up employing them anyway
without having the money in thebusiness to pay for them, and
then the business owner ends upearning even less because
they've got to take out of whatthey were earning to pay for
that new person.
Yeah, and it's that viciouscycle.

(56:30):
So I, yeah, identifying reallyclearly what your role is in
your business is reallyimportant.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
So, yeah, we, we jumped into this system,
probably, I think, july lastyear, and that's yeah, we're,
we're turning each month, we'returning turning the wheels for
me to get the role that I shouldbe playing.
We saw a point.
I'm like yep, we've got, we'returning the wheels for me to get
the role that I should beplaying.
We saw a point.
I'm like, yeah, we've got thereferrals, we've got the
workload now.
And I'm like now it's time forme to get off site and yeah, I

(56:58):
miss the banter of the boys onthe site, but yeah, it's big for
me now to get that time andorganisation now.
And that's what we're focusingon now.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
It's hard I and organisation now, and that's
what we're focusing on now.
It's hard Like I still likefeel for it now.
Like I think any tradie, anybuilder, any, I think, designers
and architects again would bethe same.
Like that's what you got intoit.
Like you're a carpenter, thenyou became a builder.
Like you love the site stuffand, let's be honest, the
business stuff is the hardestpart.

Speaker 1 (57:25):
I think that's the crazy thing about our industry
is it's ever evolving.
Like you start your littlebuilding business and you're on
the tools and then you're hiringpeople and then then then for
me the next stress was like allright now, how do I get enough
work to keep my full-time guyemployed?
I think when I first started,that was my biggest focus was

(57:45):
like just making sure I couldemploy someone was how it was
leveling up that way.
But, um, yeah, now once, onceyou have got through all of that
, it's definitely about tryingto run yourself in an organized
fashion and and letting go.
And it's taken me a long timeto let go and it's, it's
happening.
It's happening probably slowerthan it needs to be, but it's

(58:07):
happening.
And that happening probablyslower than it needs to be, but
it's happening and that's,that's how it needs to be at
least, like I feel like you'revery aware what you need to be
working on.

Speaker 2 (58:16):
That's definitely a struggle for a lot of people
like they.
Just they feel like they'rejust wearing a hundred hats and
putting out fires all day, everyday, and they just they have no
um clarity of where they needto be working on or what
directions they need to betaking, and so they just rush,
rush, rush, rush, rush.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
I think in the last two years like we had like great
business was great, but I wasjust like looking at myself
going, okay, you're 39.
You can't sustain this till 55or whatever.
You're doing this wrong.
And then that's when I was likehaving their boys as well yeah
so um, quickly just startedfocusing on numbers and then

(58:57):
that was when you were doingpretty good there and then.
So now you it's about takingmyself away from sight and just
making sure guys are educated.
Communication, they know what'sgoing on.
Stuff's pre-organized.

Speaker 2 (59:15):
Yeah, I'll grab me an iPad, mate, before you go, just
remind me and I'll show yousome of the systems and
processes that we have.
Because, yeah, it is amazingwhen all this ties together and
again, that's the whole reasonof this podcast Like I want
tradies and builders to realize,like it doesn't have to be
stressed every day and itdoesn't have to be chasing your

(59:38):
tail for cashflow all the time.
Like it's actually anincredibly rewarding industry
when you get all your ducks in arow, you've got your systems
and processes, you know yournumbers.
Like all this, stuff, stuff.

Speaker 1 (59:49):
Yeah, I think for young guys coming through like
for me, if they're younger onceyou've, obviously those first
few years are going to be hard.
This is just business.
But once you can get throughthat it's yeah, work out the
system.
You need to know that you'requoting properly number one, so
that your business is working.
But, yeah, you've got to have asystemized business for this

(01:00:12):
industry and that's like it's ait's not.
You can't just come in and geta builder's license and say, yep
, we're doing this.
It is the industry where youhave to learn as you go.
Yeah, and for things like yoursystems, it can expedite, speed
that up only in beneficial waysfor everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
Yeah.
So, matt, we'll jump intosomething else a little bit
different that I actually don'tthink we've ever talked about on
this podcast, but you'verecently had surgery for skin
cancer.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
Yes, this is my second one.
So yeah, skin cancer, sunsafety is no joke.
I've spent a lot of my lifesurfing and fishing, probably
sunbaking a lot on the job sitewith no shirt on, when I thought
that was a good idea.
But yeah, I had a little onepop up on my forehead a year and
a bit ago and then annualchecks and obviously had half my

(01:01:04):
nose cut off last week.
So yeah, if you're out there,boys definitely start getting
your skin checked and lookinginto that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Because I still see it a lot Like I'm always on
people's back and I don't thinkit's real professional either.
I know back in the day I wasthe same, you'd be on site no
shirt on.
Yeah, I think that was likethat olden day mentality.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
You just saw it.
And then it was cool to have asuntan and a lot of my younger
guys coming through.
They're all loving it, likelong sleeve and, yeah, sun
protecting, which is great, andI, we're all.
I'm all for that after,definitely.
And then it's more example forme now them seeing me what's
happened to my face at 39.
So so you're, you're all good,but yeah, yeah, it wasn't a
melanoma or anything, but I'lldefinitely be in a position now.
I need annual checkups, yeah,um, but yeah, it's, it's.

(01:01:53):
Yeah, it's not worth, it'sunprofessional and yeah, it's
just something that, like, wehave a hard enough time in our
bodies, um, shoulders, knees,skin cancer will creep up on you
, so we might not be focused onthat, but yeah, that's another
thing we need to worry about nowis what made you um?

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
what?
What was the like?
How did you find that first one?
Did you decide you just need tostart getting checked, or?

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
um, no, we went away for christmas and I surfed a bit
that holiday and then, um justnoticed a mole was a bit scabby
looking, was a bit differentthan the last one, and and then
I was like, oh, it didn't lookright.
And then my age I was like, oh,you know, coming up into
starting to do the old peopletests like prostate and mole

(01:02:38):
scans, and all that coming uponce I turned 40 or whatever.
But yeah, I was like I thinkit's time I get my skin checked.
And then, surely enough, hadone straight away, away, and I
was like how long could I haveleft that had I not gone?
And, um, yeah, so it'sdefinitely something that I
think, like, um, I think all mytradies have seen me.
In the last week I literallygot the tape off my face.

(01:03:00):
Yesterday I was wearing a maskto work, pretty much.
Um, yeah, and everyone's likewhat happened to your face?
And um, I'm like, yeah, yeah,sun safety is no joke.
Actually it's put yoursunscreen on.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
And so what do they like?
Have they told you what weshould be doing?
Like I know they say.
Like I remember, I think when Iwas growing up it was like the
slip, slop, slap.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
Yeah, no, the doctor didn't really mention anything
about that.
I guess it's just sun exposure,like I've probably super
accelerated it on my skin, likeI've been surfing since I was
about 12 and obviouslycontracting and working in the
Sun and doing all that stuff.
So, yeah, obviously noteveryone's going to be in my

(01:03:41):
case of having that superaccelerated skin and sunburn
reflection off the water for allthose years.
But yeah, if you're thinkingabout like not putting sunscreen
on, yeah, it's no joke, it'llhappen.
I always just thought, nah,she'll be right, but it got me.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
Well, our Tyler, only in the last couple of months,
has had one on his lip Similarstory to what you just said.
He just thought it was a bit ofa blister.
Or, and on his lip, like asimilar story to what you just
said.
Like he, he just thought it wasa bit of a blister, or, um,
sore on his lip and it just itwouldn't heal, it kept coming
back and, yeah, he thought hebetter go and get it checked out
.

Speaker 1 (01:04:16):
So the one on my nose wasn't even a, um, a mole, it
was just a like a red patch ofskin.
And then, once they once theynoticed it, I hadn't even
noticed it.
I then I kept looking in themirror every night and you could
see that the skin was a bitflaky on it.
I was like, oh yeah, that wouldhave gone undetected.
I just thought skin cancer wasmoles or freckles.

(01:04:37):
But it was just a simple littlebit of red skin on the side of
my nose.
And, surely enough, I've nowgot half my ear sewed onto my
nose.
Now, oh right, yeah, so I hadskin graft from behind my ear as
well.
So, yeah, yeah, they took apretty good chunk out of there
yeah, right, yeah, I'd.

Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
Yeah, I'm the same.

Speaker 1 (01:04:56):
I always thought skin cancers were more started from
moles and freckles and thingsyeah, so yeah, I definitely had
no idea like brushing your teethin front of the mirror and it's
just been sitting there for thelast 12 months.
Well, it could have justappeared, but yeah, so
definitely get checked.
Yeah, it's not just moles andfreckles, there's other things
that they're looking for, and sohave you got to get checked

(01:05:18):
more regularly now, or still 12months?

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
They said that I just have to keep doing annual
checkups from now.
Yeah, yeah, no, definitely.
It's something that ourindustry has gotten better at.
Like like you said, you do seea lot of people on site now with
long sleeves and um yeah, a lotof my guys now wearing like the
fishing buff which in summer,which is good.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
but yeah, like back in those days when I was in my
20s, on a brand new slab and thereflections coming up and
you're just getting fried allday, it was like what was I
thinking?
But it's just yeah, it's justWell it was normal it was just
normal, that's just what you did.
Yeah, it was just what you did.
Your boss and all the otherworkers were doing it and, yeah,
you thought it was good.

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
but yeah, yeah.
So, mate, where to now for JMBuilt?

Speaker 1 (01:06:08):
Yeah, so just want to keep building great houses,
having customers really enjoythe experience.
Something big for us is makingsure our customers have an
enjoyable time.
Once you, as a builder, getthat down, you'll realize how
much work it gets you as well.
You don't have to be spendingmoney on marketing when your
customer is the A-grade marketerum.

(01:06:30):
So here we haven't touched onthat like so how you've
obviously perfected who yourpreferred client is I think we
just like over the years, youjust get excited by the phone
call but you slowly learn whoyou get on with and who values
your input.
And then during that quotingtime you realize does a person

(01:06:55):
see you as a number or do theysee you as someone they're going
to spend that year with?
If you're doing some of the bigraising builds now, we're on
like, yeah, it's close to a year, so it's big for us that I can
evaluate the customer now aswell.
So, yeah, if we're not gettingon or having a joke on the job
side or communicating like it's,it's just as important for you

(01:07:18):
as the builder and the clientlikewise to get on with each
other.
Um, yeah, you just, you trusteach other, you have an
enjoyable and then at handover,like most of our builds, we're
cracking a stubby and having achat with the builder or they're
calling us up and saying, hey,come back, look at our gardens
now.

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
So what's most more important?
The type of job or the client?
The client, yeah, a hundredpercent.
I feel like a lot of tradiesand builders chase the project
yeah, like chase the architect,chase the flash house chase the
big jobs and, yeah, put notenough time and effort into
getting to know the client more.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
Yeah, if you yeah, if you if you can work your
business around the client, it,like the jobs, will have profit.
The jobs, all jobs, have profitif you're doing things right
yeah, um bomb.
That's a bomb.
Yeah, you don't have to.
You don't have to chase thattwo million dollar build to get
the flash truck or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:08:19):
You just need to run a good business and yeah because
really, like, the reallyawesome part is like when you,
when you're connecting withpeople on that personal level
and they're coming to youbecause of what you're going to
deliver them rather than basedon the price.
It's another thing that helpsthe overall business.
You can do more work, your teamis happier, things run better

(01:08:41):
because you're not putting allthe time.
How many builders and I'm onlybasing this on my own personal
experience 10, 15 years ago Canyou imagine how many builders
out there that their entire daysrun off putting out fires with
each of their clients Becausethere's no organization, there's
no relationship, there's beenno expectation set, they don't

(01:09:04):
know their numbers, and soeverything's a shit fight they
don't know their numbers and soeverything's a shit fight.

Speaker 1 (01:09:11):
I know as and some of our like some of our customers
in the past, the, the quote, thequote and the lead frame from
contact to actually break onsite can vary, like they might
not be ready or things are going, but we never once pressure
them.
It's it's always the samesystem, like it's not like we
have to get you to contract.
It's like, well, if you'regoing to pay, pay for our system
and value our time, look, youcan sit on it, put it on ice.

(01:09:34):
However, like ideally, we'retrying to work to a calendar and
schedule you in, but it's, yeah, it's about the client
experience and then when you,when you complete that
successful build, that clientwill rapidly accelerate your
leads.
More than social media postsand that type of stuff and I got

(01:09:54):
it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:55):
It blows my mind that builders will invest all this
money into getting thousands ortens of thousands or whatever
amount of followers and yet mostof them are only doing or
anything from maybe two to fivemillion dollars turnover.
Yeah, like, what is the pointof having 30 000 followers, that

(01:10:15):
28 000 of them are in otherstates?
Yeah, all countries.

Speaker 1 (01:10:20):
Yeah, that's right and, like it just blows my mind
like and the more that customertells their friends or whoever
it is, or someone in the streethow do they sign up to your
process, the quicker they arewanting to jump on it.
Yeah, um, it's like well, and Idon't like it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):
I think people over complicate, especially a lot of
these marketing companies, that,like you, you've just got to do
simple things like hashtag thestreet name or the or the suburb
you're working in, or likebuild a kubaru or build a camp
hill or whatever.
Like it's not hard, like you.
People obviously use socialmedia now to search for like.
I do think social media is a newword of mouth yeah because even
if it's um, like people mightdrive past your signs or

(01:11:00):
whatever, the first thingeveryone's going to do is look
up instagram, yeah, and see whatsort of profile you have on
there.
And for me, I I know from thefeedback I get from my clients
and we've got three years workahead of us at the moment, or
more like we're knocking workback every day.
Our clients are focused on thetype of job we do, like we do a
lot of video, so they like whenI first meet clients, they feel

(01:11:23):
like they already know me.

Speaker 1 (01:11:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:25):
And they don't give a shit about how many files I've
got, um and all that rubbish,like they're more worried about
what I'm going to deliver themand so that's all you have to
focus on.
No, and that's that's it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:35):
Like I'm just as focused on trying to get to know
the client in the early daysbefore we dive straight into the
pricing.
Like, yeah, we're work, slowlyworking on those numbers, but
you can gauge, like, how quicklythey want to communicate back
to you about your questions tothem.
Yeah, um, yes, it's a slowprocess, but once you start

(01:11:55):
learning how to how to get yourclient base and how it should
work, um, yeah, it gives you somuch freedom.
So how do you have you gottenyour client base?
So ours has just been like aslow build up of rapport.
Like we haven't paid for leadsand gone into mass tenders or
situations like that.
We've just kept an open mind onthe jobs that we're going to

(01:12:16):
take on and it's just slowlysnowballed over the years.
And then we've built up thisreputation in our little neck of
the woods that we're a raiseand build renovation builder.
Have you paid for, um,photography?
I pay for photography once theowners are happy for us to come
back, because you look at yourwebsite and like so a few things

(01:12:38):
that resonate with me with yourwebsite.

Speaker 2 (01:12:39):
Like you, I think you called the jobs by suburb.

Speaker 1 (01:12:42):
Yeah either suburb or the street, but yeah, generally
a lot of our customers.
They don't have the budgetthat's stretched into full
landscaping straight away, so wejust stay in touch and when
they're ready for us to comeback, we go back and document it
yeah, but someone can look atyour website.

Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
They can see the areas that you're working.
They click on the photos.
Photos are great.
Yeah, like we, I'm a bigbeliever in, um, like, uh,
finished photos a massive asset.
Yeah, and we do similar.
Like we, um, obviously, like wedo photograph release.
We make sure the client's happyto photograph job, even during
construction.
But occasionally you get theclient that isn't comfortable

(01:13:17):
with photographing a furnishedhome.
So there's the odd job thatwe'll just take at the end when
it's all nice and clean.
But yeah, I'm similar to you,like I, much prefer to let the
client move in settle in furnishthe house, put the grass down,
make it a home and come back insix or even 12 months and do the
photos.

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
Yeah, I mean if we don't get photos out of a job,
that's no biggie to me.
The job's been done, thebusiness has made money.
But if you're getting a clientlike testimonial, that's all you
should be after.
Be after testimonial and repeatwork, yeah, um, because yeah,
it's.
It's I think you focus on aboutpricing.

(01:13:58):
But if you can focus on gettingthat right, you can, you can
build your business around thattype of customer.
Then yeah 100 instead of justrelaying, relying on plans
coming through from a randomcustomer once you over time,
like, obviously it's not goingto happen first, straight away,
but you'll build your rapportand then you'll get that
customer that's seen seeing yourwork.
And then, yeah, I, if someonerings me and it's quite a large

(01:14:21):
job, and like we're only a smallcompany, like we're not well
known, but the first thing I sayis, would you like to call some
of our previous customers?
Because, like, if you'redeciding on the builder or
whatever, like most of mycustomers are willing to answer
the phone call and tell you howit went.

Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
Yeah, that's always a big selling point for us as
well, like any client we'vebuilt for, will take a call.
So, um, we'll reach out to them, ask them if they're.
They're available and and, yeah, pass their details on.
But you've only got to look atyour website and your instagram
and like it's all quality yeahand it makes a massive
difference.
Like I feel like there's so manybuilders and trades out there

(01:15:01):
that are like, if they like, yousee, because they do sponsored
ads and shit, so you know that'scosting hundreds or thousands
of dollars a month.
Like if they took that moneyand invested that money on
personal development or somesort of mentoring and coaching
yeah, 100 and took the time toactually figure out who their

(01:15:21):
client, preferred client, is,know their numbers, all those
types of things.
Because, like I said back atthe beginning, like so many of
them just think that they haveto be in front of people's faces
, they have to have a bigfollowing, but that's all an
absolute waste of time and moneyif you don't know how to run
the business.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:37):
So I think perfecting like we're all builders at the
end of the day, like we've allgot our own degree of quality
some push for more, some, somedon't but if that's a part of
your business relying on thequality then you need to.
You need to just drum that intoyour staff, and so that was big
.
For us is, yeah, quality iswhat built our reputation and,

(01:15:58):
um, yeah, we're just.
We're just sticking to thatyeah, no, it's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:16:02):
Well, mate, look, I really appreciate you coming in
today.
Um, is there anything else youwanted to get off your chest
while you're?

Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
here.
No, I didn't think I'd get asemotional bringing back up I
don't know.
Once I just started talkingabout it I was like Jesus,
what's happening here?
But yeah, it's been a great.
It's a very challenging careerbeing a builder and yeah, like I
, definitely my guys see thestress of it all but, like once

(01:16:30):
they learn to get the systems inplace, like I've said.
To one of our apprenticescoming through, I said, mate,
we're putting him up forApprentice of the Year this year
.
He's really good.
And I said to him look, you'regoing to be a future builder.
Whenever I said, when I'm olderand retired and you want a
supervisor or whatever, like youcan call me, um.

(01:16:53):
So yeah it's, it's a rewardingindustry but challenging.
But yeah it's if you can getall the basics right and and
make sure that your numbers arethere, like just keep improving
one percent at a time yeah, no,it's awesome advice.

Speaker 2 (01:17:08):
Well, uh, look, guys.
Thanks very much for listeningAustralia's number one
construction industry podcast.
Um, look, if you know a builderor a tradie that uh hasn't seen
this podcast, make sure youshare comment, like all those
types of things, because I can'tcreate a new building industry
without all your help and Ireally appreciate everything you
do.
I appreciate all the listensand uh look forward to seeing
you on the next one.

(01:17:29):
Are you ready to build smarter,live better and enjoy life?
then head over to live likebuildcom forward slash elevate
to get started everythingdiscussed during the level up
podcast with me, duane pierce,is based solely on my own

(01:17:52):
personal experiences and thoseexperiences of my guests.
The information, opinions andrecommendations presented in
this podcast are for generalinformation only, and any
reliance on the informationprovided in this podcast is done
at your own risk.
We recommend that you obtainyour own professional advice in
respect to the topics discussedin this podcast is done at your
own risk.
We recommend that you obtainyour own professional advice in
respect to the topics discussedduring this podcast.

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