Why Most Australian Homes Are Built Wrong: Expert Tips for Building Healthier Homes

Are most Australian homes built wrong? In this episode, we sit down with Jackson Digney, builder, building science advocate, and founder of Enduro Builders, to uncover the biggest myths in the construction industry and reveal what it really takes to build healthy, durable, and energy-efficient homes in Australia. Whether you’re a builder, homeowner, or just passionate about better homes, this episode is packed with actionable insights and real-world advice. 

Jackson Digney Links: Enduro Builders: https://www.endurobuilders.com.au/ Instagram: @endurobuilders /https://www.instagram.com/endurobuilders 

Send us a text

Support the show

Check out the Duayne Pearce website here...

https://duaynepearce.com/

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (01:29):
Welcome back to another episode of Level Love.
We are back on today for anothercracking episode.
And one thing, well, one of thereasons I wanted to get him on
is I'm I'm really passionateabout people that are passionate

(01:49):
about what they do.
And also I really like it whenpeople uh start other businesses
or follow their passion so thatthey can get better results.
And um the guest I've got foryou today has done exactly that.
So massive warm welcome to uhJackson Digney.
How are you, mate?
Good.
Thanks for having me.
Uh all good, mate.
So to give people a little bitof an idea, you uh you're a

(02:11):
builder, you um you have endurobuilders.

SPEAKER_00 (02:15):
Yep.

SPEAKER_01 (02:16):
But you also have climbershore.

SPEAKER_00 (02:19):
So that's right.
We um we I mean I started induroten years ago.
Um actually last month tippedover 10 years, and uh climb
ashore I started uh five yearsago.
Um I started Climb Ashorebecause the the journey with

(02:42):
Enduro, I I started Enduroalways uh wanting to do
sustainable and energy efficienthomes, and I quickly started to
learn that there's a bigdifference between those two
things.
They do overlap with each other,but they are two very different
um kind of meth the twodifferent approaches.

(03:03):
Um and the the energy efficientside of that approach led to um
airtightness, which very quicklyled to dealing with moisture,
and that introduced me toProclimber.
And then uh we became well, webecame uh ProClimber's biggest

(03:25):
South Australian client, becausewe were the only South
Australian client.
Uh and the um yeah, the guys atProClimber got in touch and
said, Do you want to um stopbuying from Justin in uh
Victoria and you know become abecome a distributor, which also
means selling it to otherpeople.

(03:45):
And I I was like, oh that forme, that is perfectly in
alignment with um the reasonthat the reason that Enduro
exists, which is to improve thequality, health, and comfort of
the housing stock in SouthAustralia.
So um, but I'm also aware thatsome builders are really open

(04:07):
and happy to like I am, toeverything that they know, and
some of it will be helpful andsome of it won't.
Other builders are a bit funnyabout that.
Um so we started Climbershore sothat there was just a little bit
of I suppose branding separationum and and employed Jess, who

(04:28):
you know, um, to run thatbusiness, which also just gave a
little bit of personalseparation.
Um and yeah, Jess has done afantastic job really growing
growing that business um to towhere it is and and doing a lot
of learning on the practicalside and spending spending a lot

(04:50):
of time in site site meetingswith builders with me, sort of
soaking up the the sort ofhands-on building part that goes
comes after all of the buildingscience part.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (05:05):
Yeah, this um I think this podcast's been going
on for hours, mate.
I've definitely got a lot ofquestions.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 (05:12):
That's why I'm trying to stop myself rather
than just going to be a goodthing.
Yeah, I've got a big list here.

SPEAKER_01 (05:21):
And mate, that's fine because I'm sure it would
be quality information.
But the um I've put togethersome notes because there's a few
things I wanted to make sure wewe definitely cover today.
Because I do feel like in a likeI'm not sure if it's just
because I'm aware of it now, butlike a lot of people in the
building industry like just theythey get into it because they
like being hands-on, they do anapprenticeship, they they might

(05:43):
move on and become a builder,but they tend to just stay in
that lane, they follow veryold-fashioned practices and ways
that they were taught, and theydon't necessarily keep up with
how uh well, I don't know if I'dwant to keep up with how the
industry is progressing, butthey don't really put themselves
out there to better theirknowledge so that they can
deliver better products to theirclient.

(06:05):
Um, I guess that's why I'm a bigfan of yours and what you've
done, and like I said, becauseyou've you've actually created
another business um alongsideyour building business to to
help more builders understand,um, which I think is fantastic.
But I think we'll if we can diveinto Enduro Builders a little
bit first, because I guessthat'll give us a bit more of an
insight and and background intowhy you do what you do with

(06:25):
ClimateShore.
But um yeah, tell us, I guess,how you got into building.
Like, is building somethingyou've always wanted to do, or
um give us a little bit of yourbackground first.

SPEAKER_00 (06:36):
Yeah, so when I was uh so my other man um right up
until just before I was born wasuh in hardware.
So he he owned a couple of MITA10 stores, I think at one point
he owned five.
Um and that this was back in thebecause I was born in '83, so

(06:58):
this was like late 70s into theearly 80s.
Um and at one point he was themanaging director of MITA 10
Australia, and he um he kind ofkept a lot of contact with the
hardware side of things, eventhough he he sort of finished up

(07:20):
with MITA 10 when I was bornbecause he uh that role involved
a lot of traveling and a lot ofum a lot of time away, which
didn't wasn't wasn't congruentwith his goals for being around
for his kids.
Um I it meant that I grew up ina household where uh I was

(07:42):
really exposed to small businessand small business problems
because my old man became abusiness consultant and um and
very much ran an at-homebusiness that was the people
would come for meetings at ourhouse and often be sitting
around the dining table as we'reall hurling around after school

(08:04):
and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 (08:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (08:06):
Um, and uh I kind of as I grew up I wanted to be lots
of different things, one ofwhich was a property developer.
Um, and that kind of um nevernever happened because when I
finished school, I I did reallywell in accounting at school,

(08:30):
and when I finished school, Iapplied for university positions
in construction management atone uni, and um Commerce was
specializing in accounting,finance, and marketing uh at
another university, and the theuniversity that both both spots

(08:50):
got offered to me, but to doconstruction management meant
going to a university that wasan hour's drive away from home
and um and not near the yachtclub, which at that point in my
life was central to not only myincome but also um to where I
thought I wanted to go at thatpoint in my life, which was

(09:11):
sailing for a living.
And and basically sailing for aliving can can go down a couple
of different routes, but the onethat I was focused on was the
America's Cup.
And um I I did that for a coupleof years while also kind of
applying myself at uni.

(09:31):
Um and in the end we we workedout that sailing was not gonna
be the um honey pot that wethought it was gonna be.
Um good experience, but greatexperience, and you know, got to
see a lot of the world um onother people's checkbooks, which

(09:53):
was great because we were wewere professional sailors, so
you know, we were being beingpaid, or on the times where we
weren't being paid, we were atleast you know flown to where we
had to be and clothed and housedand fed.
So um I I then moved back toPerth um and was really serious

(10:16):
about being in business formyself.
And I I worked for a company inPerth that um made yacht sales
and Yotmas and did shade salesand structural steel and a whole
bunch of other bits and pieces,and um I bought that business
and ran it for a few years andum had a lot of learned a lot of

(10:43):
hard lessons um because I was 21when I bought that business.
And I um I learned a lot aboutnot sticking with bad people and
um the old uh slow to hire,quick to fire was something that
I did in reverse.
Um uh to my detriment.

(11:05):
Um basically I got to a pointwhere we we we exposed ourselves
to some some really big miningprojects in WA doing shade
sales, and I had worked out thecash flow of these two huge
projects, um, which for the forwhere the business was at, doing
a million-dollar shade salproject was um you know

(11:29):
represented like a 25% growth inour revenue in a six-month
period.
Um, and the problem was that Icash flowed doing those projects
based on one happening at thebeginning of the year and one at
the end.
And what happened was one gotdelayed and one got brought
forward, and they both kind ofwent ahead at the same time, and

(11:51):
that was in 2008 as the GFC wasstarting to bite.
And so we had a big a bigproblem with cash flow combined
with um a kind of a dying marinemarket because everyone,
everyone in the you know, in themarine market, it generally the

(12:12):
bit I was in was alldiscretionary spending, and
there was not much of that goingon.
Um and the solution for me atthe time was to sell the
business, um which luckilysomeone came along and and
bought it, and that resulted inme moving to South Australia
because at the time I sold thebusiness, uh my now wife

(12:34):
finished her um chiropracticdegree in Perth, and she's from
South Australia, and her mum hadteed her up with a a job over
here straight out of uni.
I'd sold the business, so I waskind of full loose and
fancy-free and probably needed abit of a break from the pressure
cooker of Perth.

(12:55):
Um, and I moved over here, notreally sure what I was gonna do.
Um, but I had from all of theyears of traveling around the
world and working in variousdifferent things, I had a whole
bunch of trade skills from umcarpentry skills related to

(13:16):
building boats to working withcomposites, welding a whole
bunch of different materialstogether, um uh rigging, like
dealing with loads and weightsand all of all had all these
skills, and I was like, where doI want to direct them?
And I kind of um managed to fallon my feet because my wife's

(13:39):
father, my father-in-law, is abuilder, he's retired now, but
he was a hands-on builder whodid everything.
And he of course said, Well, youknow, what are you gonna do?
And I said, Oh, I might buy abusiness, I don't know, I'm
gonna hang around.
He said, Why don't you come workfor me while you work it out?
And I started working for him,and very quickly was like, Ah,

(14:02):
I'm gonna retrain in thebuilding industry and um become
a builder, and um that kind ofset in motion the process of
getting getting the training andskills, doing the courses, and
then getting my builder'slicense, and I um I didn't

(14:22):
initially uh do much other thango and work for a commercial
builder as a project manager,which was a job that I only got
because of my prior businessexperience.
And obviously, I've I've likecondensed condensed a lot of the
business experience into a shortexplanation, but um they they

(14:46):
basically said like you don'tyou don't yes, you've been
working on the tools doingadditions and renos and and one
new house.
Um uh but where so you'rebuilding experience for this
role is probably not as good asthe other candidates, but your
business experience is clear,and and and this role involves

(15:12):
um, as they put it, catching andkilling your own, so finding
your own work, learning it.
And so I then went on um areally uh vertical learning
curve on lots of areas, umgetting getting things right the
first time, um, because incommercial it's very cutthroat,

(15:34):
and the type of work that thatthat company did, um there's
there's very little room formaking errors and letting people
down, and the consequences ofdoing so are uh um really
unpleasant.
So um I I also worked out thatum the construction industry can

(15:58):
be a soulless, lifeless, umwasteful space.
And I um I met a carpenterduring during that who his
business had kind of morphedfrom having a bunch of
carpenters and doing decks andpagolas to additions and rentos,

(16:20):
new homes, and he did everythingas cost plus, and he was in a
world of pain.
Um he was behind with the ATO,hadn't paid Suba for ages, was
behind with his suppliers, andit was just sort of just
shoestring things along.

(16:40):
And I I really admire my wifefor accepting that I was unhappy
at the commercial builder andwanted to go and save somebody
else's business because I knewthat I could do it, but there

(17:00):
was a risk that you know wecould end up, I could I could
end up with no no no income andand even worse, have a you know
a black mark against myreputation for having not done
what I thought I could do.
Yeah, um the good news is that Idid I took over that business.
My deal with him was that I Isaid, look, you've got to hand

(17:21):
over the reins entirely,financial control, the whole
life, you've got to give it upif you want me to come in.
But I'm I'm supremely confidentI can save it.
And I just did the basics.
So did you become in?

SPEAKER_01 (17:34):
Did you become business partners or you you
worked for him?

SPEAKER_00 (17:37):
God, no, no, I just I went in as an employee.
So part of my exit strategy iswas always that like anyone can
get a job anywhere.
So um I I didn't want to be umdefinitely did not want to be in
partnership with with him, but Iwas happy to take on the

(17:59):
personal challenge of fixing hisbusiness.

SPEAKER_01 (18:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (18:02):
Um and I just did the basics.
I the first thing was he wasdoing all cost plus and had no
system for um collating thewages for the or the hours for
the week on and on which jobs,and collecting like who had
bought what materials or hiredequipment for which job.

(18:27):
So back then there was a systemcalled Workflow Max.
So I just implemented that.
So straight away we had a verytight connection between money
being spent on jobs and it beingallocated to the job and same
deal for hours.
And um and then also went andmet all the clients and gave

(18:47):
them contracts to sign, whichwas interesting because you
know, part way through for someof them, they were partway
through a job and they've beendoing this ad hoc where they
sometimes get bills andsometimes they don't.
And I kind of rocked in wearinga button-up shirt and looking
official, um, and said, Oh, bythe way, like I'm the general
manager, and you're like, weneed to like formalize this

(19:10):
arrangement.
And here's a cost plus contract,and here's how they work, and
we're gonna view you everyFriday.
Payments have to be in by theclose of business on a Monday,
otherwise we won't be back onTuesday.
And they were like a few of afew of them were like, Oh, it's
good to see someone's likepulling stuff together, and a
few, and a few of the other oneswere very put out about it.

(19:33):
Um, but the turnaround wasreally rapid.
Um, and it took about took abouteight months to get on top of
everything and get um back up todate.
The ATO got super up to date.
Um, and so you know, all of theprofit that was generated went
into catching back up.

(19:53):
Um, and then um some of thebehaviors that got the guy into
trouble in the first place cameback, um, which was you know
seeing a big bill come in and uhbecause I also introduced fixed
price contracts, um seeing a bigbill come in and think that that

(20:14):
was all his money.
Um and so we wound up partingways, probably not all that
amicably, because I I take Itake integrity really seriously.
So like if you say you're gonnado something, do it.
Um and and if you if you don'tdo it, that that's a that's a

(20:35):
really for me that is a very,very serious thing, and and
that's what had happened.
And so um we parted ways and satdown with Carly and I was like,
Carly's my wife, and I said, Ithink I'm gonna start a building
company.
And um sometimes I wonder howhow she how she does it, how she

(21:02):
saved Carly's a chiropractor,she runs two clinics, a very
successful business on her own,but she's certainly um probably
taken some leaps of faith withme.
This one's worked out reallywell.
Um and yeah, we argued for aboutthree weeks over business names
while I started um you knowreaching out to architects, and

(21:26):
and at that point in time Idecided that um I was gonna set
up a business that specializedin building energy efficient
homes and sustainable homes.
Um, and bear in mind at thatpoint in time I didn't I knew I
knew that that that was what Iwanted to do, and I didn't fully
understand what that actuallymeant.

(21:47):
Yeah.
Um what was the driver?

SPEAKER_01 (21:49):
What was the driver for that?
Like what was the driver forgoing into that space?

SPEAKER_00 (21:55):
Um a few different things.
So my old man has always been umbig on self-sufficiency, and um
that's across the board.
Financial self-sufficiency,finding ways to be food
self-sufficient where you can,um, or having a good network of

(22:19):
people that you can, you know,you can work together.
Like he's he's always beenreally strong on that and
skills.
And that's you know, that that'sthe thing that I I always find
really interesting, like um justas comfortable pulling an engine

(22:40):
apart as I am roofing a house orlike pick your thing.
Um and that that's all becauseof dad just going, have a go at
doing everything and you know,and go and hang out with people
that specialize in the thingsand and and learn about it.
So that yeah, like there'sthere's heaps of heaps of those

(23:01):
things where uh nowadays I'mreally grateful when something
goes wrong and we're a long wayfrom help.
I'm like, thank god I'm reallyself-sufficient because I can
I'll fix this and make thatwork, and we can yeah.
So um, and you know, and as anaside, dad travels around the
world now building earth ships,which is the hardcore

(23:22):
sustainable end that's awesomeenergy efficiency and
sustainability.

SPEAKER_01 (23:26):
I'm gonna have to catch up with your old boy.
I I watch so many YouTube onEarth ships and that, I think
they're amazing.

SPEAKER_00 (23:31):
Yeah.
So um he's just always drilledthat into me, and then the um
the carpenter that morphed intoa builder whose business I ran
for a bit, he he was um reallyinterested in sustainability,

(23:53):
and um so there was a there wasa bit more of an introduction
there as well, and it just to memade a lot of sense because I'd
I'd also done in the in the timethat I spent doing commercial
projects, um, a lot of time injust the slap it up, get it done

(24:15):
cheap as you can, and it justdidn't feel it didn't feel
right.
Um and it's difficult todescribe.
Like I like I enjoyed therelationship part of commercial,
but I I yeah, I just never feltlike I was leaving a positive
impact behind with some of thebuilding practices.

(24:38):
Um so that's probably the bestsummation I can give you as to
why we why I wanted to go downthat road.
Um I think it's awesome.
Yeah, I started the business.

SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
It says it's I think it says a lot, like that um like
knowing that background andwhere you've come from and all
the stuff you've been through,and then your reasoning why.
Um I think that says a lot.
And that's I don't know, it's athere's a lot of marketing in
that for your building company.

SPEAKER_00 (25:04):
Um and and I the other thing too is that I um you
know coming up with the why forEnduro Builders of we're here to
improve the quality, health, andcomfort of houses in South
Australia.
That was really easy for me tocome up with as like our mission

(25:29):
statement.
Um and and it's stuck, it hasn'tchanged.
Um the only the only tweak to itis that we we included comfort
and health in it about two yearsago.
Um because I was like, well,we're do yeah, we are doing more
than just quality.
Um and and it was important torecognize that for new staff

(25:53):
coming in so that they they theygrasped it straight away.
Um so I like I was saying, Istarted off with this focus on I
mean a focus on working witharchitects and building
architect design houses.
Um that for me anyway didn't gelvery well with um expanding my

(26:23):
business.
Um the way it played out for mewas that I um started off with
with a few architect designprojects and then started
getting I was driving a lot ofmarketing, which meant that a
lot of the leaves were comingdirectly to me.

(26:43):
And then I was I had a reallygood system for taking them to
um one of the three architectsthat I was working with and kind
of teeing them up and thenleaving them um to do the
design.
And the deal was to you know, doa concept, show it to me so I
can check it for pricing, thenwe'll show it to the client, and

(27:04):
and then we'll you know, fromthere we'll work backwards and
forwards to close up the gap.
Um so not that dissimilar towhat I understand your pack
process to be, yeah, justslightly slightly differently.
But we um we got a way into thatwhere there were a few misses

(27:30):
where the architect showed theplans to the client before
they'd spoken to me and theywere way over budget, and then
that architect blamed me for itbeing over budget, which makes
no sense at all.
But that's that's how and I'msure lots of builders just heard
that sentence and they're like,Yeah, that that's happened to me
before too.

(27:50):
So, and then it started tobecome clear that the volume of
work I had coming through justthe architects just couldn't
keep that they let me rephrasethat, they didn't want to keep
up with it because I was reallystrict about I need to see the
plans before you show them tothe client.

(28:10):
We need to have this level ofcommunication about cost, and
and I understand from theirpoint of view, I was probably
throwing sand and gravel intothe well-oiled, their well-oiled
machine.
And and so then I started, thenI had a project where I was
like, you know what, I'll designit.

(28:31):
Because all of the work that Ithat Carly and I do um on the
side, I was designing anyway.
So we did we did one job um withme designing, and I was like,
this was a well-oiled machine,everything worked really well,
and so then I hired a buildingdesigner and um and we just we

(28:53):
just tapered out ourarchitectural projects.
Um and we do still work witharchitects, but we have a really
um clearly defined set ofguardrails that we that we work
within.
Um and we we've we've learned tomake it work, but our primary

(29:16):
thing is design and build.
And and every time we do anarchitect-designed project where
they they come to us with theconcept already done, we haven't
had any that we've costed up andthey've you know just landed on
the budget, and it's all beensweet.
There's always been a lot ofwork to close close the gap,

(29:36):
either by the client raisingtheir budget or by changing the
plans.
And we found that that's um it'sunpleasant for everyone.
Like it's it's unpleasant havingto ring the client and say, Hey,
like I know that you've had a QSsay this, and you've had an
architect say this, and you'vehad someone else say this, and

(29:56):
you know, and maybe even otherbuilders give lower prices, but
I we really think this is gonnacost this much money.
Um, and and then of course wefollow through and actually
prove that.

SPEAKER_01 (30:08):
Um it's a really shame that that whole process is
so broken because a lot of greatprojects don't go ahead because
that process doesn't architects,yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (30:21):
And there's a lot of great architects.
Like, I don't want to bemisconstrued as bashing the
architects because there are acouple that we do work with who
umes that we used to send workto, and we've just worked out
that it works better if theycome to us and say, Hey, we've
got this job that's a perfectfit for you guys.

(30:42):
Um, and they are like one ofthem we we go and resolve
building details because becausewe use Revit and they use Revit,
which is the design software.
Um I go and sit in their office,and sometimes I drive, sometimes
they drive, and and we wedevelop, we've worked out that

(31:02):
that's the quickest way to getall of the things like one of us
drafts and the rest of us talk.
Um, and so for me, that is realcollaboration because I'm we're
I'm literally there doing someof the drawing work.
Um, so they work really well,but that my experience has been
that they're fewer.
And far between.

(31:25):
And we alongside of that, I'vereally focused on like I want to
build more homes so that thereare more high-quality,
comfortable, healthy homes inSouth Australia.
And to do that, I need to grow.

(31:46):
And part of that is making itmore economical to build homes
that actually perform and areactually safe to live in.
Which means that you knowthey're not they're thermal
bridge-free, so they're notgoing to have mold growth.
The um air quality has beenconsidered in the design and the

(33:03):
specification.
And um we have really workedhard to systemise how we build
to bring the cost down of doingit.
Yes, it costs more to build um ahouse with us than go to a
volume builder, but quite oftenwe will be the same or a lower

(33:27):
price than a custom home quotecomparison.
We've had a couple of instances.

SPEAKER_01 (33:35):
Well, on that subject, because that was one of
my questions, because I noticed,like in a lot of your stuff on
Instagram and stuff that youtalk about, like it's like
you're always selling yourstandard, and that's sort of
what you're talking about now.
But a lot of builders and andeven tradies always use the cost
barrier.
Oh, I I can't do that because Iwon't get another job or people

(33:55):
won't pay for it.
But um, my building business isvery much the same as yours,
like we set our standards, andif if people don't want to build
to our standards, then theydon't build with us.
So, can you use like just alittle bit of insight into I
guess how your brain feels orworks when it comes to that?
Because I think if every builderset their own standard and just

(34:17):
concentrate on selling that totheir clients, straight away
we're gonna get better homes inAustralia, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (34:25):
Well, and and uh an easier way for clients to
compare.
So the um where do I start?
I mean, it it's an awful lot ofwork, um, and it has taken, I
would say, this year is thefirst year that we really had

(34:45):
everything like pulled togethernicely with all our like
standard details, standarddrawings, um, and and a lot of
our written like systems andprocesses for how the houses
actually go together.
Um, and part of that's beenbecause those details get shared
with Climature clients as well.

(35:06):
And like we our detail pagesinclude a little methodology of
like we would do this bit, thenthis bit, then this bit, then
this bit, then this bit.

unknown (35:14):
And um we've had to do that to support the growth of
the business.

SPEAKER_00 (35:21):
Because as I bring in a new site manager, they they
you know they come from theregular paradigm.
And um, and they come that youknow, we find nowadays that when
we put out a job out, the peoplethat are applying by and large
are they're applying becausethey're like we've been usually

(35:42):
in that cover letter.
It's like I've been watching youguys for years, I've been
waiting for the opportunity tocome up.
So that and that's reallyflattering.
I've always I've always like Ican't believe people like you
know, I mean it's what it's hardbecause it's always been one of
my goals to not only do thehousing bit, but to be an
employer of choice.
Um, and it means that they comein wanting to be here, that we

(36:08):
then we then have the obligationto um train them correctly and
put them through a very muchlike vertical learning curve on
this is how the houses gotogether, which meant
documenting it.
Um and I think I would say thatit's really clear to me now why

(36:32):
lots of builders um don't dothat because the amount of work
is colossal, and and we've we'vereally only done it because I've
got an awesome team who are allinvested in what we do and and
have been invested in the youknow, me saying blocked part of

(36:54):
your um weekly diary needs tohave time blocked in it for this
development work that that we'redoing, building out the um
documentation assets of thebusiness.
Um and and people have beenreally holding that time as
sacred as we hold planning timein everyone's diaries.

(37:17):
Um but it's it's been yeah, andit and it's it's one that I'll
admit I chose not to keep trackof what it's costing.
Um because I'm like, this issetting us up for the next 30
years or beyond.

SPEAKER_01 (37:32):
Yeah, it it definitely has to be got the
detail.
Yeah, it's gotta be that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (37:38):
Yeah, like I and and look, you know, we share that
stuff with Climate Shoreclients, so you know there's um
there's value, the value thatwe've put into it, we're gonna
um we're sharing with anyonethat is interested.

SPEAKER_01 (37:53):
Yeah, but it's it's I think it's important for
builders to realize that andlike you don't they don't have
to go as far as like you and Ihave with developing documents
and specifications and things,but um you can you can make it
as simple as I want to likeProclimber is a standard on all
my jobs, or uh we do cavitybutton systems on all our jobs,
or we use like whatever it is.

(38:15):
Like every every builder can uhbuild better.
Um, but I just hear too oftenit's all based on price.
Like so many builders think, oh,I can't do that because I can't
charge more because I won't getmore work.
But um yeah, I think it's aeducation.

SPEAKER_00 (38:31):
That's that's what I see.
Um yeah, I just realized Ididn't really answer your
question about about that, but II put it down to education, and
and I've I um I've always foundthat when when we've taken the
time to explain why something iscosting more and what goes into

(38:54):
it to to to cause the costincrease, and then what the
benefit is, um you you get amuch more positive response from
the client.
And and the thing I'd say tobuilders is have a think about
all the times you've talked theminto um an idea that you had

(39:15):
about a finish or how somethingwas gonna look that cost more
than they did, and the clientagreed to it.
You just gotta apply the exactsame logic to have you thought
about like why don't we do underslab insulation?
Because you're building a housein the bottom of a valley in the
in the hills, you know, likeit's gonna be cold.
So let's do under slab.

(39:37):
Yeah, it's gonna cost you 15grand.
But the benefit is that duringwinter your feet will be warm,
your house will stay warmer,etc.
etc.
Um and I find I I've just neverfound a situation where um
clients haven't found a way tomake it make it work for them.

(40:00):
Um and under underpinning thatthough is that we have some
minimums, you know, we won't dosingle glazing, for instance.
We won't do aluminium framesunless they have a high quality
thermal break.
Um so things like that too, uh Ifind you you get them out of the

(40:22):
way early on in the conversationwith a client and they choose to
either go with you or not.
Um and it's the scariest thing,like I'm sure you've done it,
where you you turn a client awaybecause because you're they
might they might tick 25 of the30 boxes, um, or 29 of the 30
boxes, and then that last box,you're like, well no, that's it,
that's our minimum.

(40:43):
Um, and you always go, Oh, whathave I done?
You know, are we broke nextweek?
I don't know, that's that's kindof the pit that I go in every
time.
Um, in spite of 10 years of itnever going wrong.
Um I think uh every time there'salways someone else.

SPEAKER_01 (41:00):
Exactly, mate.
Exactly.
Like the one door shuts, threedoors open.
So um I'm gonna get startedasking a few of my questions
because uh otherwise we're gonnabe here all night.
But sorry, cut me off.
No, that's good.
Cut me off, you upset me.
You're really um you're sharinggood quality information, so I
really appreciate it.
But um one of the videos you'vegot on your Instagram, which I

(41:21):
which I like, is uh you talkabout four myths that builders
are stuck in.
Like if you if you're if you'rechoosing a build that's got
these four myths, don't buildwith them.
Um that's the way I sort of takeit.
Like, and you and you talk aboutbuilders being stuck in like
still building homes the waythey were in the 80s.
Can you just talk us throughthat a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 (41:40):
Yep.
Um I'm trying to remember whatthe what the the four myths were
because when I uh some of thosearticles I I write, they they
take a year or so to come outinto the um into the thing by
which time we've we'vecompletely I'm like, yes, I
remember that.

(42:00):
Just remind me of the detailagain.
Uh the four myths, so airairtight construction creates
mold.
So that's um that's a it's amyth because if you just make a
house airtight and you still putaluminium frames and single

(42:25):
glazing, and you don't thinkabout um thermal bridge in your
wall frames, particularlyjunctions on corners and where
internal walls meet externalwalls, um then all that happens
in an airtight house isobviously the the moisture load
inside the house goes up becauseit's not it's not finding its

(42:47):
way out through all of the gapsand holes, and um it can
increase the likelihood of ummold occurring, but that doesn't
mean that an airtight homecreates mold, it's an airtight
home with lots of thermalbridges increases your chance of

(43:07):
having mold.
And and so there's like athere's a stepped understanding
that you that to go through, umwhich which if you're if you
haven't taken the time to learnabout it, then it's very quick
and easy to go.
No, no, airtight homes are allhorrible, they're called you
know mold problems, and you youdon't want to have an airtight

(43:28):
home, you want to you want tolet the house breathe.
Um and that I could go on forhours about airtight, but I'll
leave it there.
Um timber isn't as durable asconcrete or brick.
So timber if it is uh allowed toget wet all the time, um, is not

(43:52):
a very durable product.

unknown (43:54):
Uh because it can um often it'll grow mold, but it'll
also rot.

SPEAKER_00 (44:00):
Um and and also you know, wet timber for things like
lintels over doorways, it'llsag.
So um a lot of people, a lot ofhomeowners go, oh I want you
know brick and concrete becausethat the solid materials that

(44:21):
aren't going anywhere.
And while that while that hassome truth to it, um you can
have situations, you know, ifbrick gets wet, there's plenty
of plenty of homes, plenty ofexamples um of brick that has
been um wet without being ableto dry, and eventually it's like

(44:45):
the brick starts to break downand frets away.
And and and a similar thing canhappen with concrete.
You can also have concrete in uhcorrosion zones where they've
they've poured 20 mpa instead offollowing the engineers and
pouring 32 if you're in thecorrosion zone, um, or even 40
in some cases, and and that doeshappen, and then the salt gets

(45:08):
into the concrete, blows out therio, blows out the concrete.
Um, so the the other thing iswith timber, if you keep timber
structures dry, then you willnot have a problem with timber
over the long haul.
And the the issue is there'sbeen like these step changes.

(45:32):
So hundreds of years ago, allthe timber buildings they were
they were completely breathable.
There was very littleairtightness to anything.
Then we started kind ofimproving building materials,
and and clients started askingfor, you know, or you know,
architects would come up withdifferent building materials.
I'm talking about architectsthat are employed by

(45:53):
manufacturers that would come upwith different building
materials and finishes andlooks.
And that then resulted in youknow lots of materials that were
tight fitting and led to moreslightly more airtight homes and
so on and so forth until we gotto a point where we are right
now where there's a lot ofaccidental airtightness

(46:16):
occurring with thermal bridgingwithout consideration to how the
timber is going to keep dryingout, and then the timber gets
wet, and then you have problems,and then timber gets blamed.
Yeah, but it's not actually thetimber, it's how you're using
it.

SPEAKER_01 (46:33):
I think like that.
Um I think that covers a lot ofproblems in our industry, mate,
because a lot of the problems Isee aren't the product or the
material, it's just simply theinstallation.
Like people haven't taken thetime to understand the material
and execute it and install itcorrectly, um, which leads to
problems.
Or read the manual, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (46:54):
Yeah, um, I'm one of those boring guys, you know,
when you get something new andyou open it up and the manual
falls out, and lots of peoplewill just keep like trying to
cobble it together or make itwork or whatever it is.
I'm one of those boring guysthat puts whatever it is to one
side and reads the manual, um,which I got from my mother.
But um I am often um amazed justwith ProClimber stuff when we

(47:23):
send the manual when someoneorders for the first time, and
we always offer to go and meeton site and go through it.
And sometimes those manuals goto the builder, and then we rock
up on site and meet thecarpenter, and we say, Oh, have
you read the manual?
And most times they've been sentit, but occasionally they

(47:44):
haven't.
And that always makes me go, Iwonder what would have happened
if we had not offered to comeand do the on-site in-person
training.
Um, and then and then, ofcourse, I extrapolate that
straight away to wonder whathappens when you get presented

(48:05):
with another new product that'sjust sold through a hardware
store where there isn't as muchvested interest necessarily from
the from the supplier.
Um and it's it's why one of ourcore things in our in our
process when we're building isif we're using a product that

(48:25):
we've not used before, it's likethe manual has to be printed and
put on site, and two copies, onethat lives on site, one that
gets given to the trade, and andthere's like a toolbox talk at
the beginning of installingthis.
Like, what do we need?
Yeah, we've got everything weneed, how's it meant to go on,

(48:46):
or all of that stuff, and that'sthat's preceded it at design
stage as well to make sure thatthat any design details try to
try to cover as much of themanual as possible.
Um, we do that same it's a we dothe exact same mate big hole in
the market, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (49:03):
And like again, it comes back to I guess people not
understanding their numbers andalways rushing to try and make a
dollar and stuff, but liketaking that time out to print
those documents, run through itwith your team, have a site
toolbox talk, everyone get onthe same page about it.
Like, yes, it's a little bit oftime, it's the cheapest time,
yeah.
It is the cheapest time, it's ayeah, well it's a lot a lot

(49:24):
cheaper than doing things twice.

SPEAKER_00 (49:27):
Absolutely.
Like, I I have this saying thatit goes it's in our manual about
that the the cheapest time tofix a problem in construction is
the moment you discover it, andand the bigger time difference
between you discovering it andfixing it, the more expensive it
gets.
Yeah, because that I've justnever found found it to be the

(49:51):
case where you can just leavesomething that you notice till
later and it not besignificantly more expensive.

SPEAKER_01 (49:58):
Well that um that's a good segue because it ties
into another question I had foryou, which was um like you talk
a lot about building uh moredurable and more sustainably is
actually more financially um isa better financial decision for
clients and trying to choose acheapest build.
Like talk to us about that.

SPEAKER_00 (50:19):
Um talk about from the construction side first, and
then we'll talk about longevityand and just build experience.
Um construction-wise, you haveto you have to all of this is
underpinned by making sureyou're working with a builder

(50:39):
who either really knows theirstuff about all of the materials
or has a good robust system forgoing and learning about the
materials if you're the ifthey're using something they've
not touched before.
Um but if you get the rightchoice and mix of materials
installed correctly and theright um amount of time gets put

(51:06):
into working out how they'll gotogether on site and making sure
that all of the various thingsthat manufacturers require for
their products actually can geltogether because there's a lot
of cases where to comply withone manufacturer's requirements,
you almost can't can't you knowcomply with the others, and then

(51:27):
what needs to happen then is adiscussion between the two
suppliers, and all of that takestime, and I I like I get it, and
it's why it's why we developed alot of our standard details
because it makes us a loteasier, it makes it a lot easier
to go.
Can we make this work in ourstandard detail?
And then if if it's almostworks, but not quite, we just

(51:51):
amend the standard detail andthen send it to the supplier and
say, like, would you supportthis on a warranty case, like,
or are there any major problems,or whatever it is.
Um, and it's also about pickingmaterials that you know uh have
really good track records forlast ability, and and I know

(52:13):
that um there are some reallynew materials that have come out
that uh we've had clients thatreally wanted to use them, and
we've provided alternatives thatuh have a have that have a track
record as opposed to somethingthat doesn't.
So I'm not saying the materialmight be totally fine, it might

(52:34):
last might outlast what whatwe're using, but I've my degree
of confidence is really high.
So we'll talk that through theclient and sort of say, you
know, if you if you go with thistype of clouding, I can really
stamp my name on it and knowthat in eight or ninety years'
time it should still be therelooking just as good.
Um but the product you want touse, like you know, it's only

(52:59):
been it's only been around for10 or so years in Australia, and
um, it's not quite long enoughto really be confident.

SPEAKER_01 (53:09):
Um these days, mate, yeah.
There's plenty of products thatyou get put on put in front of
you that only just put off thepress, like it's hard to
exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (53:19):
So yeah, and like the um the the interesting one
for me at the moment is thealuminium cladding with um you
know all the wood textures puton two of them.
Um I'm I'm yeah, and look, Iadmit to clients like, look,
there are some areas where I canactually be a bit old school

(53:40):
about about my approach.
And the you know, aluminium hasa lot of embodied energy, um and
and those um uh whatever it is,that like a vinyl coating, I
think, that they put on there togive the wood grain look.
Um there's there's obviouslyquestion marks about what

(54:00):
happens at end of life and andwhat happens when you
essentially melt it down, whathappens to the vinyl, like how
does how do you separate it andall that.
So um then, of course, there'sthere's the flow on of when
you're building really highperformance homes where you have

(54:22):
to do ventilated cavities andyou are doing a whole bunch of
building details properly fromthe get-go, it it requires more
time and thought on yourmethodology before you start
building, which then flowsthrough to your schedule because
obviously your methodology umvery quickly lines up which

(54:44):
trades come in at what times,and and you need to plan all of
that out, um, particularly fortrades who um you know need to
know how many times they'regoing to be coming to site so
that they can get their courseright.
Um and for a homeowner, whatthat means is is that you are

(55:08):
more likely to be dealing with abuilder who has a solid plan for
starting on a date and finishingon a date.
And what we do at Enduro is wewe don't give our clients the
building contract until we'vefinalized all the specs and
provided them with the schedule,which we share through an online
project management system.

(55:30):
Um and we say to them, you know,if you if you look through the
schedule, you'll see where weput slack times in, and
obviously, like jobs in winter,we'll chuck a big slack time in
the center of the the winterperiod.
Um that covers us for rain.
Um and we and we say to clients,like, this is showing all the

(55:52):
steps and our planned timelinesfor them, and you will notice
that things will move around aswe go, but what won't move is
that that handover day.
Um and and you'll notice thatthere are those slack times, and
you'll probably watch them getreduced if something gets
delayed.
Um but it'll it'll never umwe're never gonna hand over

(56:16):
late.
And we we managed to get throughCOVID.
We only had um two projects thathanded over late.
Um, and and both of them arecaused by weather, not by not
not by material stuff.

SPEAKER_01 (56:30):
Yeah.
And I think when that's thething, when you go to the when
you I think people really don'tunderstand when they go to a
builder that's put a lot of timeand effort into their business
and their systems, theirstructure, um, it isn't cheaper
in the long run.
Like everything's moreefficient, it's a better
process, it's a betterexperience, you get a better
product, your product's gonnalast longer, uh, rather than a

(56:51):
builder that's when you move inon time, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (56:53):
You're not you're not left renting a house for
longer than you expected orhaving to move around.
And we we we had a project thatwe sometimes I feel like we
didn't even really get a lookin.
We priced it.
Um, but the homeowners wanted togo with the builder that their
real estate agent recommended,and it was a high-performance

(57:16):
home with with uh proclamermembranes inside and out, so
it's almost like we would builda certified passive house, but
it wasn't a certifiedpass-about, and it was on a
really difficult site.
Um, and because of the houseincluding heat recovery

(57:37):
ventilation, that there's onlyone guy in Adelaide putting heat
recovery ventilation in.
So um I've heard about how thatproject's going, and it's still
not done.
And that was back in 2021.
Holy early.
And yeah, and and I'm like, whatthat should be like living in

(58:01):
those those people, uh, youknow, they're they're elderly,
so they things happening fastreally matters.
Um, and yeah, it's still notdone, and that's got four years
now, so for for what should havebeen about a 14-month build.

SPEAKER_01 (58:18):
Yeah, but at the time it's hard to uh hard to
tell people, but um, we'll crossover into a little few questions
that well definitely to do withbuilding, but also um the
climate shore party or orclimate shore business as well.
But um the th the notes I'vewritten down that I want to ask
you questions about, it's it'sprobably more to get other
builders thinking because um Iknow just from the questions I

(58:41):
get on my socials and thestories that I do on from my
building sites, uh, thesequestions come up all the time.
And so I I I talk a lot nowabout all all cladding leaks.
I know you've got some blogposts on your um page about it
as well.
And look, I I I definitely was Iguess taught through my
apprenticeship and my earlyyears as a contractor, like um

(59:04):
the the bit the my bosses wouldalways drive into me, like, get
that tight, like this is whatseals are building up.
And reality is it's not likewater gets in in all sorts of
places.
So just run us through yourthoughts on that a little bit
because I think it's aneye-opener for a lot of
builders, like they don'tunderstand how important that
building wrap um is, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (59:27):
The um where to start?
So we we start at the end, soputting on a high-quality
building membrane, we're and Iobviously have a strong bias
towards uh proclamer membranesbecause I'm a distributor, um uh

(59:50):
is is the number one way toprotect your building um from
getting moisture inside it, andand most critically protecting
the timber and the insulationfrom getting wet.
Um all like you said, like allcladdings wind up leaking

(01:00:10):
somewhere.
Um and even brick is porous.
And you can um, and there'splenty of plenty of examples,
and you don't have to google toohard to find um you know
pictures of the back of brickwalls that are really wet that
have been facing the weather.

(01:00:31):
Um and that's um you know, brickis regarded as like certainly to
a public that um hasn't had anyeducation in other options.
And I grew up in WA whereeverything is double brick.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:49):
Um while you're on the brick, like it there is so
many houses getting built herein Brisbane, uh more so by
volume builders that uh justsmashing up the brick facades
and then they're painting it.
And like that, that to me iseven worse.
Like the then then when thewood, when the water does get
through, it's trapped.
And then people wonder whypeople wonder why they're living

(01:01:12):
in two-year-old houses and youyou look at it in certain
elevations of the house, it justit's just all black and mouldy
and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:20):
Yeah, yeah.
And you have the problem in thetropics of the mould forms on
the outside more often than not,because because you you're
you're um yeah, you're morehumid on the outside than on the
inside.
Yeah, um, and and a yeah,building with a high-quality

(01:01:40):
building membrane that'sactually waterproof, and then
putting um a ventilated cavityand then your clouding on is um
like for me, it started offabout building performance and
airtightness, and then as soonas I started learning about how
proclamer membranes worked, andum how building science works, I

(01:02:05):
suddenly went putting thesemembranes on is an insurance
policy against uh claims forleakage and and buildings
getting wet on the inside.
Um And it's and it is a it's alayer of defense against any

(01:02:26):
failings in your in yourclouding install.
Um which you know they thingsthings can happen um years down
the track.
Very unusual.
But um like you say, and uh I'vealso had the opposite argument
from a couple of builders,they're like, yeah, but you're
creating this thing withventilated cavities and you're

(01:02:48):
putting a vent at the top and avent at the bottom, and what
stops rain hitting the groundand bouncing up into the bottom
of your cavity, or when it'sreally rainy having water go in,
I'm like, but the whole thingdrains.
I said, even if you highpressure hose the side of the
house and all water goes up intothat that vent strip that we've
put in where the thinking abouta particular case where the

(01:03:10):
weather tech's clouding and anEve coming in, and then a little
vent strip in between.
Yeah, and they're like if I'mhigh pressure hosing that the
waters goes up, and I said,Yeah, it goes up, lands on what
is almost a completelywaterproof building membrane
that is actively pushingmoisture to the outside and it's
in a ventilated cavity, and anyexcess water is going to run

(01:03:31):
down that membrane and drop outthe bottom onto the ground.
I said, You're far better off.
I said, What if you're highpressure hosing that house and
there is no vent strip andthere's a gap in the clouding
somewhere, and that water isgoing straight into your
insulation.
You tell me what's worse.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:49):
Well, it it's more than likely going onto a shitty
old foil black paper and there'sno ceiling around windows, and
it's it's eventually rotting outyour uh your your studs around
your windows and those types ofthings.
But um I think and that's thatwhere I that's where I feel
there needs to be moreeducation.
Like um, I feel like a lot ofbuilders they're not

(01:04:12):
understanding how the houseperforms, or and and that's why
they they don't maybe put somuch time into understanding why
they need to be doing claddingsbetter and vented cavities and
using better building wraps.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:22):
But um yeah, like how does it and that's and
that's why I look at it from theinsurance perspective.
Um because if it you know ifyou're using a building membrane
and putting a ventilated cavityin, you're you're you're
providing yourself as a builderwith insurance from potential

(01:04:44):
problems, and at the same timegiving your owner, your
homeowner, a a better outcomeand um insulation that's
protected from wind washing,which which is uh you know we've
talked about water a lot, butthere's also the the in making
the insulation work.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:02):
Yeah, and I think I don't know, you you would know a
lot more than I do um with thebuilding science stuff, but I I
feel like it's very different uphere to down there.
Like your um your condensation,like you're dealing with nine
times a lot of time cold outsideand warmer inside, whereas up
here we're dealing with quitewarm outside and then everyone
running the air conditioninginside.

(01:05:23):
So like you need to understandhow all that's um affecting how
your house is.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:30):
Sorry, yeah, yeah.
Well, how it's different, andand it um yeah, like in in a lot
of the tropical areas, we use uha membrane that has a higher SD
value, which is essentiallymeans that it um less moisture
pass through slower because themoisture load in the tropics

(01:05:51):
because it's more humid is ishigher, so you need to have more
resistance to moisture passingthrough.
Um and you also have to be awareof like a thermal bridge causes
the same amount of drama in acooler climate as it does in a

(01:06:12):
hot climate, it's just that thethe direction is often reversed.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:19):
Yeah, yeah, there's so much there's there's mate,
there is so much to know.
Like I said, we could go on forhours.
The um one one more I'd reallylike to like building science is
I think something that peoplereally need to educate
themselves more on.
Like I know I've I spent hoursonline, I've done a few online
courses and stuff.
Um, and I'd like you and I arewell you guys more are working
on something at the moment nextyear, which I think is pretty

(01:06:40):
exciting.
Um, if anyone's on the level upemail list, um you've all been
sent an email this or last week,I think, uh, with opportunity to
register for the event thatClimate Shore is putting on, so
make sure you check that out.
Uh, do you want to give that aplug, mate?

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:55):
While we're on here, yeah, yeah, I'd love to.
That's so we it all started withum just being really keen about
doing it and and getting uh oneparticular building scientist uh
over here.
Um and yeah, Joe, I'm gonnabutcher his surname, Lutzbrick,

(01:07:19):
I think it is.
Um he he is basically regardedas the godfather of building
science in the world.
Um and we're um setting up torun a two-day event where we'll
we'll have um guys like himtalking about the the building

(01:07:39):
science and the um with a with ahalf of a link to the practical
side.
And then Jess is really twistingmy arm to um talk about the
practical side and and how youknow how you actually go about
delivering this stuff on on siteand um and how we go about

(01:08:01):
training our trades and andbringing new trades um up to
speed as well as bringing new umincoming staff up to speed with
with the knowledge they need toto make sure that the standards
that we have don't slip.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:18):
Yeah, no, it's um yeah, it'll be a great event.
Yeah, I'm really excited andlooking forward to it.
So um yeah, look, if you're noton the uh level up mailing list
yet, make sure you um go to thewebsite and register on there,
and um, we can always flick youremail again.
Otherwise, reach out to the guysat Climate Shore and they'll um
they'll flick you all thedetails so you can register.
It's it's a bit of an inviteonly, so unless you've got an
email or you know about it, youuh you won't be able to be

(01:08:39):
there.
But um mate, just another oneI'd really like to touch on
quickly, uh if we can before weget out of here, is um, and I
know you've got some blog postson your uh website about this as
well, but everyone bags out uhlike anticon and roof blanket.
Like, so how do you know what'swhat to use, like anticon or a

(01:09:00):
vapor permeable uh membrane?

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:04):
So um that's why I was like, oh here we go.
Um Anticon.
Um we've got plenty of examplesof Anticon doing exactly the
opposite to that.
Um the the problem with theAnticon blanket is that it gets
squished at every perlin whenit's using a roof, um, and it's

(01:09:29):
uh at those points itcondensates.
Um the only and I did a trial ofthis on a house that I used to
live in uh when we did a massiverent on it.
I was like, I want to see justhow bad it gets.
So I didn't put any of the roofventilation in, and uh, we did

(01:09:51):
it with Anticon blanket becauseat the time with where I was at
and what we were doing, changingit all to Mento just wasn't all
of them in the budget.
So I thought, well, this is agreat opportunity to learn
something and carry thatknowledge forward.
Um, and it took three days forthe condensation to start
generating some molt, at whichpoint I ran around and put all

(01:10:16):
of the um we finished the job inthe middle of winter, so like
that's your your worst case aswell.
So we were heating the house, R6insulation, truss roof, anticon
blanket, and um yeah, on thethird day I started to notice
like the first day itcondensated.
I was like, well, that's nosurprise.

(01:10:36):
Now let's see how long it takes.
And yeah, on the third day Inoticed some some mold getting
going.
So the um all of the roof ventswere very hastily cut out and
installed, and the problem theproblem went away because we had
so much ventilation in therethat um the the condensation

(01:10:56):
that was forming was beingpicked up by the moving air and
and vented out.
Um so and in places likeTasmania, Anticon Blankets
outlawed has been for has beenfor a while.
Um and it's for that for thatreason.
So if if you um and if you putthat into like a really flat

(01:11:19):
roof, so like sort of once youget below 10 degrees, that um
that condensation load throughthe right turn, um, increases
dramatically because there'sless um air running along the
the bottom of the anticon to tryto vent out.
So my my advice is that anticonis um not uh not a great thing

(01:11:49):
to do on a roof.
You're better off to put amembrane on there and have a
ventilated cavity above thatmembrane.
Um one of the there's a there'sa really good video that Jesse
Clark um has done.
It it's like 25 minutes long,but you only have to watch about

(01:12:09):
five minutes of it, um, where hesteps through the calculations
involved in R values.
And in a nutshell, if you thinkabout the radiant heat, so like
you boil the kettle, and if youhold your hand, and I'm gonna go
American, an inch away from theum the kettle, you can feel some

(01:12:30):
heat, and if you go half aninch, you you feel a lot of
heat, and obviously thatincreases really rapidly as you
get your hands closer.
So the same thing applies withinsulation.
If you have the roofing ironhard down on your anticon
blanket, which is standardinsulation, then the iron

(01:12:50):
temperature is hard against thatinsulation.
So the heat, there's more heatradiating down into the
insulation, and if you separateit with a ventilated cavity,
then the radiant heat from theiron is not getting, it's not

(01:13:11):
nowhere near as high when itgets to the membrane, and
because that's ventilated,you're bringing in ambient air
temperature.
So, regardless of whether it's a40-degree day or a 25-degree
day, the roofing iron um isgoing to be hotter than the air
temperature, and because it's inthe sun, and and that air

(01:13:33):
running up is going to becooler.
So the heat load that's on themembrane is lower, which means
the heat load on anything belowthat, whether it's a truss roof
or or a scallion roof where theinsulation's hard up against the
membrane, the heat load on it isway less.
And there's there's a the waythat R values are calculated

(01:13:55):
includes um the K value, whichis Kelvin for the temperature
difference, and there's someassumptions in the Australian
standard for how that'scalculated.
And in that scenario I justdescribed, you go way outside
the assumptions because roofingiron can get up to 80 degrees in
the in the darker colours,obviously colour dependent.
Like any anything with buildingscience, the answer always

(01:14:17):
starts with it depends.
Like, what's the climate, what'sthe orientation, what's the
material, what color is thematerial?
Like it goes it goes on and onand on.
So that's why I always try totalk in, I try to keep it as
general as I can because there'slike specific answers are not
possible without knowingspecific details.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:34):
No, but I think I'm hoping the general principles
are the same.
Yeah, and I'm look, I'm hopingby having these conversations
it's going to spark the interestof more builders and they're
gonna dig deeper on this stuff.
But um, I think as a generalrule of thumb, like we still use
anticon on our roos.
Um, we're really wellventilating them.
But um, that's next on our listthat we're which is which is the
easy thing.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:55):
Like if you're a builder listening to this and
you're like, oh god, like farout, all my jobs have got
anticon.
Just just make sure your roof isreally well vented and you'll
you'll minimize your risk.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:07):
Yeah, well, we've gone back old school, like we're
using vented safet sheets, we'vegot vented bridge caps on, like
we're putting um solar poweredwhirlpool solar powered vents in
the roof.
Um, like we're really gettingthat air movement, which I think
is a very important thing.
But um, mate, we'll we'll haveto wrap it up because I haven't
even got through half myquestions.
We might have to get you backfor round two.

(01:15:28):
But um the very last thing,sorry, but two just two things
before we go.
Um the first one is like justquickly tell us about
Climashore.
Like, what does Climashore offerum builders or clients?

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:43):
Yeah, so Climashore um does a couple of different
things.
We we're obviously thedistributor in South Australia
for ProClim membranes.
We also make um and sell a bunchof standard-sized um uh cavity

(01:16:04):
closures that are made out of uhstainless steel mesh that um
complies with all the bushfirerequirements, and because it's
stainless steel, it alsocomplies with the corrosion zone
requirements.
Um and then in addition to theproducts, we provide consulting.
So the consulting covers apretty wide variety of things.

(01:16:25):
We do passive house consulting,so um obviously all of all of
the Enduro certified passivehouses, uh ClimaShore does
those, and and we work for uh afew builders and one architect
at the moment.
Um, and we provide WOFI analysisand thermal bridge calculations,

(01:16:46):
as well as doing um plan reviewsand just providing early
feedback on any sort of majorareas of concern, primarily from
a thermal bridge point of view,uh, and also from getting a
complete thermal envelope pointof view.
So they're they're like applyingapplying the pillars of a

(01:17:09):
passive house, but theconsolency is about casting our
eyes over the plans and saying,hey, like there's a bit of a
problem with that detail, andthings like things like
cantilever overhangs are alwaysa tricky one where they're often
supported by steel, which meansyou can generate a situation
where you've got steel goingfrom inside the thermal envelope

(01:17:30):
to outside, and and there's waysto sort all of that out, but the
best like so with all buildingproblems, the best time to fix
them is the moment you identifythem, and the earlier you can
identify them, the better.
Um, so that in a nutshell iswhat we do, which is all on our
website.
I am blower door testing.
I always forget about that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:51):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, and I guess for anyonelistening anywhere in Australia,
like uh or I know maybe NewZealand too, but um like we've
got a couple of clients at themoment dealing with um Jackson's
team at Climashore.
Like they do they offer reportsand things, which um I know are
helping a couple of our clientsat the moment make some key
decisions in the design stagebefore and like we're still

(01:18:13):
working our way pricing throughthe job, so it's really good to
have that information, be ableto make adjustments now uh
before we get too far down thetrack, or like we're not even at
building contract yet, we'rejust working through our
pre-construction pack process.
So um, yeah, reach out toClomashore if you're unsure of
uh any of these things we'vespoken about today, I guess, and
see if they can help you out.
But um mate, last one was likefor any builders that are

(01:18:36):
listening that want to buildbetter but aren't quite sure,
what's like one or two justsimple things that they can
start doing on their projects?

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:45):
Um this the the first one would be adopting
ventilated cavities that thatwill it will protect you from
problems down the line and andit will really help help um
improve the performance of thehouses that you're building.
Um and and the second one is umdo at least do the very minimum

(01:19:09):
with uh preventing the mostobvious thermal bridge in
houses, which is the windows.
Yeah.
Do double glazing and use eithera good quality thermally broken
aluminium or a UPVC frame.
Or if you've got a client thatreally wants to do timber,
timber.
The only reason I'd timber'salways on the end because it

(01:19:30):
costs so much more, um, and andhas a lot of maintenance
hang-ups.
So yes, you sequester a lot ofcarbon and using the using
timber, but then you're gonnapaint it every year or oil it or
and then there's you know thoseflow on to you know those
flow-ons have to be considered.

SPEAKER_01 (01:19:49):
Mate, correct me if I'm wrong, but with the cavity
or the drained cavity system,they're calling it in the NCC.
The if you're in climate zonesix, seven, eight, like that's
in by the end of 2025.
Like you have to do that, don'tyou?

SPEAKER_00 (01:20:03):
That that is my understanding.
Um, the tricky part for me isI'm in South Australia where um,
and this is a it's constant.
And I I was saying to like um aconsulting client this morning
that said I wish that I had oneof those brains where you can
like read stuff and justremember it.
Uh, because in South Australiawe have a very complex um delay

(01:20:29):
in the building codeimplementation.
And the reason I say complex issome bits are in, some bits are
excluded, some bits are excludedif you're building a town.
There's all these weird thingsthat make it pretty much every
time Jess and I get a question,we have to just double check
that we're giving the rightanswer.

(01:20:50):
Um, particularly, yeah, withinterstate clients, it's pretty
straightforward.
But South Australian ones istricky, but yeah, that is my
understanding that that's that'sa that's a requirement.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:02):
Yeah, like apart from all the other maybe bits
and pieces and rules and uh Iguess um type of property you're
building or type of dwellingyou're building or the class of
building and stuff, but yes,zone six, seven, eight, pretty
much by the end of 2025, likeyou have to be doing this on
your projects, and then allother zones and and under slab,

(01:21:24):
yeah, under slab insulation,yeah.
And then uh all other climatezones like one to five will be
in, like I think they've beendelayed until late 28 or
something.
But even like the the reality isthis stuff is coming into code,
and if you're not talking aboutit, you're not becoming more
aware of it, you you reallyshould be.
So um I hope today's podcast hassparked some interest and you

(01:21:48):
start reaching out to uh peoplelike Jackson and his team at
Climate Shore.
Um, we're gonna try and get thispodcast out pretty quickly
because uh Climate Shore isactually sponsoring a we call
them a fuel session.
Live like Bill does fuelsessions.
We've got one coming up on the14th, Friday, the 14th of
November.
It's in Adelaide and it iscompletely focused on educating

(01:22:08):
builders on uh drained cavities,ventilated cavities, the
ProClima product, um, and thehealth, but the benefits it
brings to using it on yourhomes.
And I'm going to be talking uhhow I sell it to my clients
because that seems to be a verybig hurdle for most builders is
getting over those costconversations with clients
because this stuff does costmore.
So uh we're managing to do itwith every single one of our

(01:22:30):
building clients, and in fact,we the more we talk, it seems
like the more we talk about onsocials, the more and more
people want it.
So um I think it's a no-brainer.
But Jackson, really appreciateyour time this afternoon, mate,
for coming on.
You're you're a wealth ofknowledge.
I honestly I didn't even getthrough half my questions, I'd
love to chew your ear off forhours.
No, it's good, it's good.
Um I really appreciate yousharing your knowledge and and

(01:22:53):
your experience, and I think theindustry needs more of it.
So um, mate, look forward to umcatching up with you soon.
Like I said, appreciate yourtime.
And yeah, look, uh, before we goout, is there anything else you
wanted to say, or where can thelisteners just go to websites,
Instagram?

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:09):
Yeah, the the the the websites for Climature and
Enduro builders, uh yeah, theythey get told that there's lots
of useful information there.
Uh and yeah, and our and ourInstagram, you you on Instagram
you you'll always be like caughtJess or I talking about
something to do with this stuff.
Um, and the only other thingthat I just thought of for

(01:23:30):
builders is is have a bit offaith in your trades.
Our our trades have all come onthe journey.
None of none of my tradesstarted off with any interest in
energy efficiency.
And I really just said like thisis what I'm doing, this is the
path that we're on.
And um, and there have hasn'tbeen that many that have stuck

(01:23:54):
their nose up at it and walked.
Um and I think I think you'd beamazed how how well they'll
support you because you knoweveryone wants to do better.
Sometimes you just need to havethe right the right push in the
right direction at the righttime, and then you're away.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:12):
Yeah, definitely.
No, I agree 100%, mate.
Well, um, look, like I said,thanks for coming on this
afternoon.
Um, and everybody, thanks forlistening.
Uh, continue to make thisAustralia's number one
construction podcast.
As always, go to theDwaynePears.com website, make
sure you get your merch.
And uh, look, as always, ifthere's anything you want to
know, any questions you have,make sure you reach out.
We're happy to help you out.

(01:24:32):
Uh, look forward to seeing youon the next one.
All right, guys, I want tointroduce you to a really
exciting new product that Ibelieve is going to play a
massive role in Australiabuilding healthier homes.
As you all know, I am extremelypassionate about healthy homes
and I'm doing a lot of researchand putting a lot of time and
effort into making sure myconstruction business is leading

(01:24:53):
the way when it comes tobuilding healthy homes here in
Australia.
We've teamed up with the guysfrom Highwood Timber.
Highwood Timber are pioneeringcondensation management with
their high flow ventilated LVLbatten system.
High flow battons give buildersa stronger, straighter, and
smarter way to create aventilated cavity behind

(01:25:14):
cladding and underneath roofswithout compromising on
structural performance.
While tackling condensation toimprove building health and ease
of insulation, highwood battonsare built to perform.
When it comes to dealing withcondensation and ventilation,
high flow battons will help youcreate continuous ventilated
cavities behind all yourcladding and underneath your

(01:25:36):
roof sheeting.
They reduce condensation riskand support healthier, longer
lasting buildings.
Highwood timber battons are alsoin alignment with the proposed
NCC condensation managementrequirements as well as passive
house ventilation requirements.
Being an engineered LVL product,they are stronger, straighter,
and more dimensionally stablethan a solid material such as

(01:25:58):
pine.
This helps resist warping,twisting, and shrinkage,
ensuring more consistentinstalls less prone to splitting
than solid timber.
Howard timber batons areprecisely manufactured, meaning
that your installation will befaster and easier than other
products on the market.
The part that I like the mostabout these batons are they are
H3 treated for long-termprotection against decay and

(01:26:20):
turmoiles.
They use a waterborne H3treatment which reduces
reactivity with membranes andadhesives when compared to LOSP.
These are the exact battens thatyou want to be using on your
homes and your builds if you areconsidering building healthier
homes or passive homes.
Check them out, Highwood TimberProducts.