March 18, 2025 • 38 mins
Join us this week with our special guest, Ann Tolly, as she shares her remarkable 40-year journey in pro-life ministry. Ann's story demonstrates how God transforms our deepest wounds into our most profound purpose.
When Ann and her husband helped establish a pregnancy care center in Michigan, they couldn't have imagined the ripple effects their work would create. Ann shares pivotal moments that shaped her ministry—from establishing their mission statement, “saving lives for now and eternity,” to overcoming challenging counseling situations with women who initially rejected spiritual guidance. Her candid stories reveal both the struggles and triumphs of frontline pro-life work.
Perhaps most compelling are Ann's experiences counseling post-abortive women, many wrestling with suicidal thoughts. Her accounts directly challenge contemporary narratives that abortion has no lasting negative effects. With profound compassion, Ann describes how she guided these women toward healing and forgiveness through God’s Word. One particularly moving story involves a desperate late-night phone call that led to a life-saving intervention using Lutheran catechism teachings.
Ann’s legacy continues through countless lives touched and future generations saved. Whether you’re considering pro-life work or simply seeking inspiration, Ann’s testimony powerfully illustrates how ordinary people, yielded to God, can have an extraordinary impact in addressing one of our culture's most contentious issues with truth and compassion.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ann Tolly (00:19):
On today's episode with the dentist.
Well, that sign eventually felldown, but I'll tell you the
wonder of it all God's totalprotection continued us there
year after year after year.
Paul Snamiska (00:36):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources.
People today face manyopportunities and struggles when
it comes to issues of life anddeath, marriage and family,
health and science.
We're here to bring a freshbiblical perspective to these
issues and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz (01:03):
Hi and welcome back.
I'm Krista Potratz and I'm heretoday with Pastor Bob
Fleischman, and today we have avery special guest with us.
Today we have Ann Tolley withus and we are going to be
talking to her about her lifeand all of her work that she's
done in the pro-life world.
(01:25):
Bob would probably be the bestperson to make this introduction
here to all of our listeners,because I believe you've known
Anne for quite a while.
Bob Fleischmann (01:36):
I think Anne and I go back what?
35 years or longer 40.
40 years.
Yeah, I was trying to.
Actually, my connection to Annbegan with her first husband,
del.
Del Warner was a member of theCLR National Board, one of the
early boards that we had, andDel and I shared hotel rooms
(02:00):
when we were sometimes on theroad and so forth.
And then the momentous datecame that I met Ann.
Life hasn't been the same since.
Ann had been a counselor for usin our Michigan one of our
Michigan's pregnancy carecenters, and just immediately we
clicked and, to bring theintroduction very tight and
(02:21):
short, we began to tap Ann totravel around, do training for
other counselors in our othercenters, and then we even tapped
her to go to Ukraine for us anddo some work with training over
there.
So we have a long history.
I won't tell all the storiesabout you, ann, if you don't
tell all the stories about me.
Ann Tolly (02:40):
It's a deal.
Christa Potratz (02:44):
Ann, can you tell us a little bit about
yourself and specifically to howyou got into this line of work
as well?
Ann Tolly (02:55):
I was thinking about this and I wonder if it didn't
begin when I was just a verylittle girl and liked to do
scrapbooks.
I was just a very little girland liked to do scrapbooks.
My friends would makescrapbooks with animal pictures
and girls' dresses and dogs andcats and stuff, but I loved
babies.
I just positively loved babies,and I had the most beautiful
(03:16):
scrapbook.
My mother let me cut out allthe baby pictures out of the
magazines, so I attribute thatto that.
Was probably the Lord directingme at that time, I'm not sure,
but I think so.
And then, after that, of course, then I became 21.
And that was when I married DelWarner and we were married 47
(03:38):
years when the Lord took himhome.
And during those early days ofdating, we were, we were getting
serious, we talked aboutchildren and we both wanted
children and that had to be, orI wouldn't have ever married
them.
Anyway, we decided that both ofus would like seven children.
That's what we thought we wouldlike.
(03:59):
And, of course, when we married, nothing, nothing, nothing.
In the fifth year, we were toldthat we were going to have a
baby and the whole world wasrejoicing with us.
Oh, my goodness sakes.
And we were so thrilled.
However, the ending of thestory was that our Stephen was
(04:20):
stillborn and I had no idea whenI delivered him that they would
not ever let me see him ortouch him, because they said his
skin had become dark about thelong time I had carried him dead
within me.
Oh my, my dear husband Del saidwe are going to trust in the
(04:41):
Lord and we're not going to askwhy.
And we never did that.
Following week after that, mypastor came and said Ann, I need
a woman to go with me to thehospitals and other things.
You know that I'm travelingwith and working with and I'd
like a woman there with me.
And would you go?
And I said yes.
So right away I got going inthere and it was like three
(05:06):
years later and there wasnothing, no pregnancies.
So our doctor said maybe youshould start adoption.
So we got to the home visit andguess what?
I became pregnant with my firstdaughter in the eight years of
our marriage and we justrejoiced.
And then we had another childand then I had a miscarriage and
(05:32):
I had another child and I hadfive living children and two
with the Lord.
That's what I always tellpeople when they ask me how many
children I have.
Christa Potratz (05:43):
So you had your seven.
Ann Tolly (05:45):
He's had our seven.
Yes, yes, yes, but it was 40years ago last year that we
celebrated down here in Michigan, in the Detroit area, the
Pregnancy Counseling Centerwhich had started.
And at that time Del and I wereone of the five couples that
had heard about Missouri Synodhaving these pregnancy
(06:07):
counseling centers.
So we thought, well, we can dothis.
We all said that we wouldsupport it financially in
whatever way we had to go.
So that's how we got thatstarted.
We met at a church area and gotthe word out to all the
churches what we wanted to doand said would you please come
(06:29):
to this meeting and just let ustell you what we're finding, you
know?
So that evening of the firstgathering, there were so many
people that came, which was athrill to know that there were
people out there that wanted todo this work.
And we showed the scream,silent scream.
I don't know if you rememberthat one, but I'll never forget
(06:50):
it.
Well, it touched the hearts ofmany, and especially me, because
I was not prepared, for in themiddle of the film they showed
the aborted baby.
Now, when I had my stillbirth,they didn't call it stillbirth,
they called it aborted.
Okay, so remember that Now I'msitting there watching it.
(07:14):
And then this comes, thispicture of the aborted baby.
And this darkened baby was thefirst time that I truly felt
that I'd seen my son.
It was just like oh, and I ranout of the room because it just
hit me.
But at the next meeting we cameforth and now it was the time of
(07:37):
commitment.
You came and are you going toconnect yourself now, serving
the Lord and doing these works?
So tell us what you want to do.
And many people came up to meand said oh Ann, you'd be a good
counselor.
And my answer was no.
And then, on the way home themeeting, my dear Del said why
(07:58):
would I not become a counselor?
He said the Lord's given youthose gifts.
So he said I want you to prayabout it.
Will you pray about it?
And I said the Lord's given youthose gifts.
So he said I want you to prayabout it.
Will you pray about it?
And I said yes.
Now the next day I was all alonein the house and I was walking
down the hallway, turned thecorner to go in our bedroom and
I was talking out loud to theLord.
(08:18):
And this is what I said to him.
Well, dear Lord, my dear Delsaid I should talk to you about
this.
And so I'm here and I want toknow why you think I should be a
counselor.
And now, I kid you, notimmediately, immediately, as I
walked one step in, I heard himsay because you know the death
(08:43):
of a child.
Then I knew what the Lord haddone.
I don't know if I would haveever done that without having
the death of a child, because Ibecame the post-abortion
counselor.
I thanked the Lord for showingme this wonderful reason.
(09:06):
Anyway, that was really good.
So I called Dell and told themand, of course, the rest is
history, because for 25 years Iserved the Lord being a regular
counselor, and then they sent meinto Chicago to be trained to
be a post-abortion counselor.
I was sitting in this big room,just a big, huge circle, and
the one who was directing itsaid and now it's time,
(09:29):
everybody I want everybody totell about their abortions.
And so it came to me and I saidwell, I never had an abortion.
And the people were saying what, why are you here?
Were saying what, why are youhere?
(09:50):
And I said well, I just feltthat I wanted to help the women
who have had abortions.
And I said and I had to findout more about this.
And so they accepted me warmlyand that's how I started
becoming a post-abortioncounselor and I've never
regretted it.
The journey for the center waswonderful.
I got a call one day from LindaSmirk you might remember her,
(10:14):
she was one of the real leadingones and she said Ann, I want
you to get in the car and drivedown Six Mile and look for the
dentist office.
So I got in the car and wentdown.
She didn't tell me she wantedme to seat myself.
It was three doors down from avery active abortion clinic.
(10:34):
Well, this doctor, he wanted usthere and he gave us the rental
.
He never once changed it in allthose years until they moved
away.
So we were all educated andbecame a volunteer counselor and
we were not just there for theworldly things, giving them the
(10:57):
diapers and the furniture andall that stuff, but we were
there for spiritual help.
And that's where these wonderfulpastoral counselors came in and
we learned not to use the wordGod but Lord, because we were
going to be having lots ofdifferent religions walk in our
(11:18):
door and they said they're God,but we call them our Lord.
So that was kind of interesting.
Anyway, one day I was on dutyand I received a phone call from
a newspaper asking about ourcenter, and one question that
stands out in that is today is,they asked me well, what would
you say in just a few shortwords about your work there?
(11:40):
Well, the Holy Spirit had theanswer I gave saving lives for
now and eternity.
And that became our quote.
We all have that same answer inour daily walk with our Lord
every day.
Today we are saving lives fornow and eternity when we take
(12:00):
the time to reach out to peoplewe don't know or you see
somebody crying and you go upand tell them about Jesus.
Christa Potratz (12:09):
So, as you said , you were a counselor.
Can you expand a little bit onwhat that role is?
You said you did two differenttypes one to women who had
chosen life and then, later on,to women who had gone through
abortion.
Ann Tolly (12:29):
That's right.
Christa Potratz (12:30):
So I'm guessing these are these one-on-one
conversations that you're havingwith women, just so that our
listeners can kind of get anidea of what a counselor in
those roles does yes, in thoseroles does.
Ann Tolly (12:42):
Yes, our first ones, that we started out.
Of course, we were onlyone-on-one and we took down all
the information, personalinformation, and we asked them
if they had any church they wentto, which gave us the
opportunity then to remember howto witness to them, and it was
(13:06):
just really wanting to get toknow them and who they were.
And I'll tell you, when itfirst all started, boy, we were
very nervous but excited.
It was just like what are wegoing to say?
What are they going to say?
And running the pregnancy testand then letting them in there
(13:26):
alone, waiting for that test tobe shown to them, which we did
all the time.
Many of them wanted to take ithome with them because it was
their first baby, but we always,always, were told to witness to
them, and that was, to me, oneof the real good reasons for
(13:47):
getting to know them.
Bob Fleischmann (13:49):
And in those early years, what was like the
most frustrating thing youexperienced, what was the
biggest hassle you felt intrying to do this work?
Ann Tolly (14:00):
I would say some of my clients that were, I think,
the one I can still remember.
She came in and the door of thecounseling room was open and
there sat my pastor's wife asthe one out the window and she
came.
This woman came in and she'ssitting quite close to me and
(14:23):
she reaches out before I beginanything and she hits my nose
with her finger and she says Idon't want to have you tell me
anything about God or anything,the Bible, and I started to cry.
I mean, I didn't know I wasgoing to do this, but I started
to cry.
I said but I have to.
(14:44):
And she says well, you're sogood, you don't sin.
And right away Satan came andsaid go ahead and tell her your
sins and lose out there.
Your pastor's wife can hear you, so you go ahead.
And I started.
I actually told her my sins,that I could remember, and she
(15:07):
stopped me and she said youreally are a sinner.
I said, yes, I am a sinner, andso, anyway, she had said she
didn't want to hear anythingabout the Bible.
But when we were through I saidso, you don't own a Bible.
She said no, and I said well,would you like one?
And she said yes, several weekslater she came in and she
(15:31):
wanted some for her siblings.
So that was one of my hard ones.
I think the other hard one was awoman came in and she was
certainly not a childbearingyear, she was older.
Her daughter had sent her inApparently.
Her daughter had heard about us, about our post-abortion
(15:53):
counseling, and she came in.
She said well, I'm here becausemy daughter sent me.
And she said my daughter saidthat I needed to come here.
The woman told me that she'd hadone abortion.
That's what she told herdaughter.
But she said actually I've hadsix abortions, she said, and my
(16:15):
husband and I agreed on themtogether because we were married
and we had a lot of childrenand we didn't want anymore.
So we just kept aborting them.
She said it was a mistake and Istopped her.
I said no, it was a sin, thosewere sins.
No, they were mistakes.
(16:35):
I said but she wanted to joinmy class, said, but she wanted
to join my class, you know so,my Bible class.
So I invited her to come andevery week she'd say she'd
really emphasize the mistake andI would say you know, we're not
going to go any further untilyou can say and believe and know
(16:56):
that this was a sin.
Well, one night she came in andshe looked ahead in our Bible
study book and she read aboutDavid being confronted by Nathan
.
The first step in the door.
I was waiting for her.
She came over me and put herhands.
(17:16):
I mean she said, I am a sinner.
I am a sinner, I confess it.
I said what made you changeyour mind?
And she told me that she wasreading scripture.
So the Lord changed her mind.
So that was a challenge.
I don't think everybody hadthat kind of a challenge, but
(17:38):
those were two big challengesfor me.
Bob Fleischmann (17:44):
A lot of people heard me talk in the past about
New Beginnings Home for Mothersand there were two women who
were very instrumental ingelling the idea behind New
Beginnings.
One was the religion editor forthe old Milwaukee Journal when
she kind of challenged me bysaying, well, you talk a woman
out of an abortion but you don'tdo anything to help them.
And I said, well, that's nottrue.
But I kept thinking there wasmore to do.
(18:05):
And then about an hour or twolater, and you might remember
the conversation, you called me.
This would be 1991 or so 1992.
You called me and you werecrying because you had had a
client whose boyfriend wantedher to have an abortion.
You met with her, you talkedwith her and she went back home,
(18:26):
told her boyfriend she didn'twant to have an abortion and the
man beat her and put her in thehospital.
You felt terrible and youcalled me just to kind of
comfort you.
We talked and I remember afterwe hung up, because I remember
distinctly you saying do allthis great work here in the
(18:46):
center, but they still have togo back, they have to go back to
their home environment andeverything.
And I combined my conversationwith the religion editor with my
conversation with Ann, andthat's where the idea for New
Beginnings came from.
Ann Tolly (19:00):
Oh, my goodness.
But that is a wonderfulopportunity, oh my.
Christa Potratz (19:07):
Yeah, and you know, I think too it just really
speaks to when you really getto know people, which is
something that you got to do inyour counseling role too is then
you can really find out whatpeople need.
And kind of to Bob's point too,like what we can do about it,
because I think so many peoplewant to know what do I do?
(19:27):
What do I do?
And until you really sit downand talk with people, you may
not really know how to help them.
Ann Tolly (19:36):
But we did have the support from Bob a% and that
wasn't probably my first phonecall to him or my last.
You know, he was always there,guiding us with the word.
That's what we needed to hear.
That's what we needed to hear.
Everybody needed to hear it,you know.
Bob Fleischmann (19:55):
Well, ann was the one during one of my low
times and you have a few lowtimes over these years and in
one of my low times, ann, Istill remember Ann saying to me
remember, you are the arrow, youpoint the direction, and I
always say yeah, and I've neverforgotten that and that kind of
(20:15):
snapped me out of my funk.
But it's important to rememberthat Now before we think that
Ann is always so nice.
I do very much remember gettingvery close to one time being
thrown into a swimming pool byAnn and her fellow counselors,
(20:37):
and then another time when Ialmost had a cherry pie in my
face.
So she was.
She could be an instigator.
Christa Potratz (20:45):
Oh, I don't believe you so sweet.
Ann Tolly (20:49):
Oh yeah, I was the one that suggested we throw them
in the pool at the Beast Coastpool.
Christa Potratz (20:57):
And can you share with us some positive
stories, too, that you've hadover the years with people?
Ann Tolly (21:05):
You know, positive, I would say, really is when I was
called in at one of theconferences there.
We always went out, you know,for the conferences.
For our national conferencesyeah, national conferences.
Right, del was on the board andhe told me that Pastor Bob
Fleischman wanted to see me andhe said we were walking down
(21:27):
there.
And he said do you think youdid something wrong in your
counseling?
And I said, well, I guess I'llfind out.
So I got in there and then hewas telling us about the doors
to Ukraine had opened and thatthey would like very much if I
would go with Brad Mattis, whichI didn't know him at the time,
(21:50):
and I said I will go if myhusband said you know?
He said he would let me go, beblessed and he said yes, so I
went and helped.
Christa Potratz (22:00):
And how long were you there in Ukraine and
what did you do?
Ann Tolly (22:04):
You know, I don't know how many we went twice.
We went one year and then thenext year and we went to schools
here in America.
They wouldn't let us intoschools In Ukraine.
They opened the doors and wewent to classroom after
classroom.
We went into colleges and thecolleges another college found
(22:26):
out what we were doing and theysaid we want you in our college.
Well, I said we were going backto America the next day.
Well, you have to come back.
But anyway, those wereopportunities that, you know, I
never would have dreamt having,because here in America, you
know, they just wouldn't do.
But there were a lot of otherthings that the Lord had in mind
(22:47):
for us in Ukraine.
It was, I think, the second timethere that the outgoing
president of Ukraine was two orthree doors down at the hotel
from me.
That would never happen inAmerica.
So I told my translator.
He said you're going to haveauthority on this floor, here
(23:12):
and everything.
And I said, well, I'm going tomeet him.
Oh, and he laughed at me.
He said, no, you're not.
And I said, yes, I am.
So he worked with me to get thepronunciation of them.
So the next morning I steppedout across the doorway and
waited for my translator.
He no sooner did.
He says don't move.
And I said what's wrong?
He says he's coming, thepresident's coming.
(23:35):
I just stood there and hestopped and he came forward out
of his security.
People came over and he reachedfor my hand and kissed my hand
and he said who are you and whatare you doing in my country?
And while he asked wow, what anopportunity.
So I told him I said well,we're here to tell your people
(23:59):
about the development of theunborn baby and we're going to
tell them all about abortion,what it does to the person that
has the abortion, and this iswhy we're here in your beautiful
country, ukraine.
And I said when you're killingthese babies, that means that
you're killing people that wouldvote for you babies, that means
(24:23):
that you're killing people thatwould vote for you.
So that kind of ended mydiscussion with him and I asked
him if I could give him a gift,and he told his people of
authority around him protectinghim.
You know that it was okay forme to go back in the room and I
got him one of those real prettybulbs that were given out with
declaring Jesus' birthday, youknow, and he thanked me.
(24:43):
Well then he went down to Bradand Brad gave him one of those
little pins with the feet and hesaid he was very interested and
he said I will wear it and tellothers.
Now we don't know if he did ornot, we don't know that, but
those were the very importantthings in Ukraine and I
understand that their centersare still going on there.
(25:05):
That was really wonderful tohear.
Bob Fleischmann (25:10):
We ended up growing it to five.
We had five centers in Ukraine.
We were helping Fossafaith withtheir mobile medical and dental
unit and while we were there,Ann did some training and so
forth and we got five centersgoing, Like you said.
I think some of them are stillgoing.
I mean, we turned it back overto Thoughts of Faith and they're
(25:32):
not in that information loop.
But yeah, ann, I still rememberasking Ann to go to Ukraine.
Ann didn't only do that for us,I think.
We sent you to California, wesent you to other places in the
United States to do training andit was funny because Ann was so
good at this that she almostwas too good, because you watch
(25:54):
her and you go.
I don't think I could do itlike she does, but you really
were good, thank you, that wasthe Lord, I was just His
instrument.
Thank, you.
Ann Tolly (26:00):
That was the Lord.
I was just His instrument.
I really want to make thatclear.
I was just simply Hisinstrument.
He gets all the glory.
Christa Potratz (26:10):
And I wanted to ask you, too, a question.
You had also talked about yourwork talking to women after they
had had an abortion, doing thattype of counseling.
What, maybe, was one of yourbiggest takeaways from doing
that?
Nowadays, too, we hear allsorts of things.
We hear how so many peopledon't regret their abortion, or
(26:34):
people that do, or oh, there'snothing really that wrong about
it.
So what did you find, actually,with talking to the women?
Ann Tolly (26:43):
They were very suicidal.
It seemed to be that I got thesuicide calls when I was on
hotline, which I wasn't everynight, but I got really hard
calls, really hard calls forsuicide, really hard calls,
(27:06):
really hard calls for suicide.
The one particular one had afather who was a Lutheran day
school teacher at the time andshe just didn't want him to ever
know what she had done and shewas going to commit suicide that
night.
Well, I think I was on thephone two hours at least with
her and I just asked her.
I asked the Lord.
I said well, lord, you're goingto have to really help me.
(27:29):
This is a tough one.
And he let me to use thecatechism, which was you know.
I just couldn't believe it.
But I asked all these questionsout of the catechism and she
responded so it must have been.
The Lord, of course, knew herand knew that she knew the
catechism because of her fatherbeing a teacher.
(27:51):
He probably discussed all thesethings with her too.
But at the end she promised meshe would not commit suicide and
I drove north a couple hoursfrom the center to meet her at a
restaurant.
I told her what clothes I wasgoing to wear and what I kind of
looked like.
And so I drove up there and Isaid I'm just going to stand by
(28:14):
the door and wait.
And I said you see me, you cancome and get me.
And I stood and waited andwaited and I just, if you see me
, you can come and get me.
And I stood and waited andwaited and I just had the fear
of that.
Oh no, but then she, this woman, young woman, came up and she
said are you Ann?
I said yes, so we got.
We asked for a booth.
(28:36):
That was way away, because shedidn't want anyone to hear what
she was going to tell me, youknow, and but that was a real
hard one, I think.
The other one was one that Inever, ever did meet for a long
time.
She told me a story and shesaid no one's going to believe
me.
And I said well, I'm going tobelieve you.
(28:56):
I said I believe whateveryou're going to tell me.
And she had had an abortion andshe went out in the woods with
her car and blocked it up so allthe gas fumes would be inside,
and she said now she said I wassitting in there waiting to die.
Outside the car, she said, andthere were demons.
(29:20):
They were terrible, terrifyingdemons.
They were just like screamingat me and she said, inside my
car it was white, bright, and Iknew they were the angels of the
Lord and they were there toprotect me.
She said they were fightingthose demons.
I got out of the car and tookout the stuff and went home and
(29:45):
then she called me and then Imet her a long time afterwards
and we're still friends and westill talk.
But the memories of the center,oh, my goodness, I'll never
forget it.
There was a creaking, old,rusty sign and it was right
before the driveway.
I don't know if you rememberthat, bob, that was an old,
(30:07):
rusty one.
It says total protection and itwas often.
We gave that direction.
Well, you come to totalprotection and then you turn in
there and we're in with thedentist.
Well, that sign eventually felldown.
But I'll tell you, but thewonder of it all, god's total
protection continued us thereyear after year after year.
(30:31):
So that is a wonderful memoryfor me too.
Christa Potratz (30:35):
And what would you tell someone who maybe wants
to start volunteering orgetting involved in counseling,
in pro-life work?
What would you share with them?
Ann Tolly (30:50):
Well, I would say, first of all, to truly know that
you're a sinner too, you haveto know the Lord, you have to
know the Lord's word and believeit.
There's so many many wonderfulblessings that come forth by
talking to these people andseeing them, and you know, I
(31:11):
have at least eight of mypost-abortion people that have
traveled here to where I live tosee us and meet my dear Lowell
too, and we correspond too, andwe correspond.
(31:33):
It's just wonderful.
So you get so much more thanyou give.
That's what I always felt.
I have to remember one of myvery special men.
Oh, I'll never forget him, andhe may even hear this podcast,
and he would be so thankful if Itold this story.
But he had abortions withseveral of his girlfriends.
Then he married one of thegirls and guess what?
(31:54):
They had a baby and all of thiswas realistic.
Now what?
It was a real baby, and itdrove him to drugs and alcohol
and everything.
One night he was going to godown to the river he was telling
me this and he had a gun and hewent out and this man came up
(32:19):
out of nowhere and said to himwhen are you going?
He said I'm just going down tothe river.
What are you going to do there?
Well, I'm just going down tothe river.
What are you going to do there?
Well, I'm just going down there.
He said well then you don'tneed the gun.
He said give me your gun.
And he said I gave him the gun.
And he said later I knew thatwas an angel.
(32:40):
An angel had come to stop mefrom killing myself.
And he came to my classes and itwas through Brad Mattis's
putting out signs about men,because I think Brad was one of
the first ones that were reallygetting men into counseling
(33:02):
really do.
And he called brad and he's,and brad said uh, well, where
are you located?
He said in michigan, in thedetroit area.
And he said well then he said Ihave someone I want you to see
and it's a woman, but don'tworry, uh, she'd be like a
grandmother to you.
She's that she's older than you.
(33:23):
So he came and that night hecalled and I went over to the
center.
It was night, but I told Del,my husband.
I said well, I'm going to bemeeting this man tonight.
So I get out of the car and Isee this big, curly truck driver
and he says are you Ann?
(33:46):
I said yes, I am.
He said are you alone?
I said no, I'm not alone.
Well, he said well, who's withyou?
And I said the Lord.
He said does your husband knowyou're here with me?
And I said yes, he does.
I said I don't have any fear.
I said I know why you're hereand I'm going to help you.
(34:08):
So we became really goodfriends in Athabiri and I'll
never forget it because I had noone ever probably I'll cry
telling you this.
But he said when we get toheaven, he said is it okay that
I'm going to come and hug you?
Because I told him I was ahugger, you know.
(34:29):
And he said I'm going to comeover and hug you.
And he says I just want to tellyou that I'm here because you
were the one that invited mehere.
Bob Fleischmann (34:39):
Wow, Well, ann, there probably is no one in the
history of our organizationthat has probably had tentacles
of love and concern that havespread so far out.
I mean, you've been a profoundanchor for my life and for the
work we do and, like I said, Igive you part of the credit for
(35:00):
New Beginnings.
Well, I didn't even know that.
You're just an incredibleblessing, and the incredible
part of it all is that you stillare.
I mean, through this podcastand I think through people who
contact you, you'll continue.
What you've always seen andwhat I've taken to heart is a
(35:23):
lifelong legacy of thinking ofothers ahead of yourself and
always, even in your light,pointing to the Lord.
Christa Potratz (35:32):
We just thank you so much for everything that
you've done throughout yourcareer and life in this work,
but also for sharing it with ustoday too.
So thank you so much.
Ann Tolly (35:45):
This was a walk down memory lane, exactly what Bob
said.
No one has ever asked me aboutthat, and I treasured this.
I really did.
Christa Potratz (35:56):
Well, thank you so much, Anne, for sharing all
of this with us today.
We really appreciate it.
I would thank everyone forjoining us today and we'll see
you back next time.
Bye-bye.
Paul Snamiska (36:07):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of
the Life Challenges podcast fromChristian Life Resources.
Please consider subscribing tothis podcast, giving us a review
wherever you access it andsharing it with friends.
We're sure you have questionson today's topic or other life
issues.
Our goal is to help you throughthese tough topics and we want
(36:27):
you to know we're here to help.
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
suggestions for future episodes,at lifechallengesus or email us
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In addition to the podcasts, weinclude other valuable
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(36:50):
For more about our parentorganization, please visit
christianliferesourcescom.
May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge, everyLife Challenge.
On today's episode with the dentist.
Well, that sign eventually felldown, but I'll tell you the
wonder of it all God's totalprotection continued us there
year after year after year.
Paul Snamiska (00:36):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources.
People today face manyopportunities and struggles when
it comes to issues of life anddeath, marriage and family,
health and science.
We're here to bring a freshbiblical perspective to these
issues and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz (01:03):
Hi and welcome back.
I'm Krista Potratz and I'm heretoday with Pastor Bob
Fleischman, and today we have avery special guest with us.
Today we have Ann Tolley withus and we are going to be
talking to her about her lifeand all of her work that she's
done in the pro-life world.
(01:25):
Bob would probably be the bestperson to make this introduction
here to all of our listeners,because I believe you've known
Anne for quite a while.
Bob Fleischmann (01:36):
I think Anne and I go back what?
35 years or longer 40.
40 years.
Yeah, I was trying to.
Actually, my connection to Annbegan with her first husband,
del.
Del Warner was a member of theCLR National Board, one of the
early boards that we had, andDel and I shared hotel rooms
(02:00):
when we were sometimes on theroad and so forth.
And then the momentous datecame that I met Ann.
Life hasn't been the same since.
Ann had been a counselor for usin our Michigan one of our
Michigan's pregnancy carecenters, and just immediately we
clicked and, to bring theintroduction very tight and
(02:21):
short, we began to tap Ann totravel around, do training for
other counselors in our othercenters, and then we even tapped
her to go to Ukraine for us anddo some work with training over
there.
So we have a long history.
I won't tell all the storiesabout you, ann, if you don't
tell all the stories about me.
Ann Tolly (02:40):
It's a deal.
Christa Potratz (02:44):
Ann, can you tell us a little bit about
yourself and specifically to howyou got into this line of work
as well?
Ann Tolly (02:55):
I was thinking about this and I wonder if it didn't
begin when I was just a verylittle girl and liked to do
scrapbooks.
I was just a very little girland liked to do scrapbooks.
My friends would makescrapbooks with animal pictures
and girls' dresses and dogs andcats and stuff, but I loved
babies.
I just positively loved babies,and I had the most beautiful
(03:16):
scrapbook.
My mother let me cut out allthe baby pictures out of the
magazines, so I attribute thatto that.
Was probably the Lord directingme at that time, I'm not sure,
but I think so.
And then, after that, of course, then I became 21.
And that was when I married DelWarner and we were married 47
(03:38):
years when the Lord took himhome.
And during those early days ofdating, we were, we were getting
serious, we talked aboutchildren and we both wanted
children and that had to be, orI wouldn't have ever married
them.
Anyway, we decided that both ofus would like seven children.
That's what we thought we wouldlike.
(03:59):
And, of course, when we married, nothing, nothing, nothing.
In the fifth year, we were toldthat we were going to have a
baby and the whole world wasrejoicing with us.
Oh, my goodness sakes.
And we were so thrilled.
However, the ending of thestory was that our Stephen was
(04:20):
stillborn and I had no idea whenI delivered him that they would
not ever let me see him ortouch him, because they said his
skin had become dark about thelong time I had carried him dead
within me.
Oh my, my dear husband Del saidwe are going to trust in the
(04:41):
Lord and we're not going to askwhy.
And we never did that.
Following week after that, mypastor came and said Ann, I need
a woman to go with me to thehospitals and other things.
You know that I'm travelingwith and working with and I'd
like a woman there with me.
And would you go?
And I said yes.
So right away I got going inthere and it was like three
(05:06):
years later and there wasnothing, no pregnancies.
So our doctor said maybe youshould start adoption.
So we got to the home visit andguess what?
I became pregnant with my firstdaughter in the eight years of
our marriage and we justrejoiced.
And then we had another childand then I had a miscarriage and
(05:32):
I had another child and I hadfive living children and two
with the Lord.
That's what I always tellpeople when they ask me how many
children I have.
Christa Potratz (05:43):
So you had your seven.
Ann Tolly (05:45):
He's had our seven.
Yes, yes, yes, but it was 40years ago last year that we
celebrated down here in Michigan, in the Detroit area, the
Pregnancy Counseling Centerwhich had started.
And at that time Del and I wereone of the five couples that
had heard about Missouri Synodhaving these pregnancy
(06:07):
counseling centers.
So we thought, well, we can dothis.
We all said that we wouldsupport it financially in
whatever way we had to go.
So that's how we got thatstarted.
We met at a church area and gotthe word out to all the
churches what we wanted to doand said would you please come
(06:29):
to this meeting and just let ustell you what we're finding, you
know?
So that evening of the firstgathering, there were so many
people that came, which was athrill to know that there were
people out there that wanted todo this work.
And we showed the scream,silent scream.
I don't know if you rememberthat one, but I'll never forget
(06:50):
it.
Well, it touched the hearts ofmany, and especially me, because
I was not prepared, for in themiddle of the film they showed
the aborted baby.
Now, when I had my stillbirth,they didn't call it stillbirth,
they called it aborted.
Okay, so remember that Now I'msitting there watching it.
(07:14):
And then this comes, thispicture of the aborted baby.
And this darkened baby was thefirst time that I truly felt
that I'd seen my son.
It was just like oh, and I ranout of the room because it just
hit me.
But at the next meeting we cameforth and now it was the time of
(07:37):
commitment.
You came and are you going toconnect yourself now, serving
the Lord and doing these works?
So tell us what you want to do.
And many people came up to meand said oh Ann, you'd be a good
counselor.
And my answer was no.
And then, on the way home themeeting, my dear Del said why
(07:58):
would I not become a counselor?
He said the Lord's given youthose gifts.
So he said I want you to prayabout it.
Will you pray about it?
And I said the Lord's given youthose gifts.
So he said I want you to prayabout it.
Will you pray about it?
And I said yes.
Now the next day I was all alonein the house and I was walking
down the hallway, turned thecorner to go in our bedroom and
I was talking out loud to theLord.
(08:18):
And this is what I said to him.
Well, dear Lord, my dear Delsaid I should talk to you about
this.
And so I'm here and I want toknow why you think I should be a
counselor.
And now, I kid you, notimmediately, immediately, as I
walked one step in, I heard himsay because you know the death
(08:43):
of a child.
Then I knew what the Lord haddone.
I don't know if I would haveever done that without having
the death of a child, because Ibecame the post-abortion
counselor.
I thanked the Lord for showingme this wonderful reason.
(09:06):
Anyway, that was really good.
So I called Dell and told themand, of course, the rest is
history, because for 25 years Iserved the Lord being a regular
counselor, and then they sent meinto Chicago to be trained to
be a post-abortion counselor.
I was sitting in this big room,just a big, huge circle, and
the one who was directing itsaid and now it's time,
(09:29):
everybody I want everybody totell about their abortions.
And so it came to me and I saidwell, I never had an abortion.
And the people were saying what, why are you here?
Were saying what, why are youhere?
(09:50):
And I said well, I just feltthat I wanted to help the women
who have had abortions.
And I said and I had to findout more about this.
And so they accepted me warmlyand that's how I started
becoming a post-abortioncounselor and I've never
regretted it.
The journey for the center waswonderful.
I got a call one day from LindaSmirk you might remember her,
(10:14):
she was one of the real leadingones and she said Ann, I want
you to get in the car and drivedown Six Mile and look for the
dentist office.
So I got in the car and wentdown.
She didn't tell me she wantedme to seat myself.
It was three doors down from avery active abortion clinic.
(10:34):
Well, this doctor, he wanted usthere and he gave us the rental
.
He never once changed it in allthose years until they moved
away.
So we were all educated andbecame a volunteer counselor and
we were not just there for theworldly things, giving them the
(10:57):
diapers and the furniture andall that stuff, but we were
there for spiritual help.
And that's where these wonderfulpastoral counselors came in and
we learned not to use the wordGod but Lord, because we were
going to be having lots ofdifferent religions walk in our
(11:18):
door and they said they're God,but we call them our Lord.
So that was kind of interesting.
Anyway, one day I was on dutyand I received a phone call from
a newspaper asking about ourcenter, and one question that
stands out in that is today is,they asked me well, what would
you say in just a few shortwords about your work there?
(11:40):
Well, the Holy Spirit had theanswer I gave saving lives for
now and eternity.
And that became our quote.
We all have that same answer inour daily walk with our Lord
every day.
Today we are saving lives fornow and eternity when we take
(12:00):
the time to reach out to peoplewe don't know or you see
somebody crying and you go upand tell them about Jesus.
Christa Potratz (12:09):
So, as you said , you were a counselor.
Can you expand a little bit onwhat that role is?
You said you did two differenttypes one to women who had
chosen life and then, later on,to women who had gone through
abortion.
Ann Tolly (12:29):
That's right.
Christa Potratz (12:30):
So I'm guessing these are these one-on-one
conversations that you're havingwith women, just so that our
listeners can kind of get anidea of what a counselor in
those roles does yes, in thoseroles does.
Ann Tolly (12:42):
Yes, our first ones, that we started out.
Of course, we were onlyone-on-one and we took down all
the information, personalinformation, and we asked them
if they had any church they wentto, which gave us the
opportunity then to remember howto witness to them, and it was
(13:06):
just really wanting to get toknow them and who they were.
And I'll tell you, when itfirst all started, boy, we were
very nervous but excited.
It was just like what are wegoing to say?
What are they going to say?
And running the pregnancy testand then letting them in there
(13:26):
alone, waiting for that test tobe shown to them, which we did
all the time.
Many of them wanted to take ithome with them because it was
their first baby, but we always,always, were told to witness to
them, and that was, to me, oneof the real good reasons for
(13:47):
getting to know them.
Bob Fleischmann (13:49):
And in those early years, what was like the
most frustrating thing youexperienced, what was the
biggest hassle you felt intrying to do this work?
Ann Tolly (14:00):
I would say some of my clients that were, I think,
the one I can still remember.
She came in and the door of thecounseling room was open and
there sat my pastor's wife asthe one out the window and she
came.
This woman came in and she'ssitting quite close to me and
(14:23):
she reaches out before I beginanything and she hits my nose
with her finger and she says Idon't want to have you tell me
anything about God or anything,the Bible, and I started to cry.
I mean, I didn't know I wasgoing to do this, but I started
to cry.
I said but I have to.
(14:44):
And she says well, you're sogood, you don't sin.
And right away Satan came andsaid go ahead and tell her your
sins and lose out there.
Your pastor's wife can hear you, so you go ahead.
And I started.
I actually told her my sins,that I could remember, and she
(15:07):
stopped me and she said youreally are a sinner.
I said, yes, I am a sinner, andso, anyway, she had said she
didn't want to hear anythingabout the Bible.
But when we were through I saidso, you don't own a Bible.
She said no, and I said well,would you like one?
And she said yes, several weekslater she came in and she
(15:31):
wanted some for her siblings.
So that was one of my hard ones.
I think the other hard one was awoman came in and she was
certainly not a childbearingyear, she was older.
Her daughter had sent her inApparently.
Her daughter had heard about us, about our post-abortion
(15:53):
counseling, and she came in.
She said well, I'm here becausemy daughter sent me.
And she said my daughter saidthat I needed to come here.
The woman told me that she'd hadone abortion.
That's what she told herdaughter.
But she said actually I've hadsix abortions, she said, and my
(16:15):
husband and I agreed on themtogether because we were married
and we had a lot of childrenand we didn't want anymore.
So we just kept aborting them.
She said it was a mistake and Istopped her.
I said no, it was a sin, thosewere sins.
No, they were mistakes.
(16:35):
I said but she wanted to joinmy class, said, but she wanted
to join my class, you know so,my Bible class.
So I invited her to come andevery week she'd say she'd
really emphasize the mistake andI would say you know, we're not
going to go any further untilyou can say and believe and know
(16:56):
that this was a sin.
Well, one night she came in andshe looked ahead in our Bible
study book and she read aboutDavid being confronted by Nathan
.
The first step in the door.
I was waiting for her.
She came over me and put herhands.
(17:16):
I mean she said, I am a sinner.
I am a sinner, I confess it.
I said what made you changeyour mind?
And she told me that she wasreading scripture.
So the Lord changed her mind.
So that was a challenge.
I don't think everybody hadthat kind of a challenge, but
(17:38):
those were two big challengesfor me.
Bob Fleischmann (17:44):
A lot of people heard me talk in the past about
New Beginnings Home for Mothersand there were two women who
were very instrumental ingelling the idea behind New
Beginnings.
One was the religion editor forthe old Milwaukee Journal when
she kind of challenged me bysaying, well, you talk a woman
out of an abortion but you don'tdo anything to help them.
And I said, well, that's nottrue.
But I kept thinking there wasmore to do.
(18:05):
And then about an hour or twolater, and you might remember
the conversation, you called me.
This would be 1991 or so 1992.
You called me and you werecrying because you had had a
client whose boyfriend wantedher to have an abortion.
You met with her, you talkedwith her and she went back home,
(18:26):
told her boyfriend she didn'twant to have an abortion and the
man beat her and put her in thehospital.
You felt terrible and youcalled me just to kind of
comfort you.
We talked and I remember afterwe hung up, because I remember
distinctly you saying do allthis great work here in the
(18:46):
center, but they still have togo back, they have to go back to
their home environment andeverything.
And I combined my conversationwith the religion editor with my
conversation with Ann, andthat's where the idea for New
Beginnings came from.
Ann Tolly (19:00):
Oh, my goodness.
But that is a wonderfulopportunity, oh my.
Christa Potratz (19:07):
Yeah, and you know, I think too it just really
speaks to when you really getto know people, which is
something that you got to do inyour counseling role too is then
you can really find out whatpeople need.
And kind of to Bob's point too,like what we can do about it,
because I think so many peoplewant to know what do I do?
(19:27):
What do I do?
And until you really sit downand talk with people, you may
not really know how to help them.
Ann Tolly (19:36):
But we did have the support from Bob a% and that
wasn't probably my first phonecall to him or my last.
You know, he was always there,guiding us with the word.
That's what we needed to hear.
That's what we needed to hear.
Everybody needed to hear it,you know.
Bob Fleischmann (19:55):
Well, ann was the one during one of my low
times and you have a few lowtimes over these years and in
one of my low times, ann, Istill remember Ann saying to me
remember, you are the arrow, youpoint the direction, and I
always say yeah, and I've neverforgotten that and that kind of
(20:15):
snapped me out of my funk.
But it's important to rememberthat Now before we think that
Ann is always so nice.
I do very much remember gettingvery close to one time being
thrown into a swimming pool byAnn and her fellow counselors,
(20:37):
and then another time when Ialmost had a cherry pie in my
face.
So she was.
She could be an instigator.
Christa Potratz (20:45):
Oh, I don't believe you so sweet.
Ann Tolly (20:49):
Oh yeah, I was the one that suggested we throw them
in the pool at the Beast Coastpool.
Christa Potratz (20:57):
And can you share with us some positive
stories, too, that you've hadover the years with people?
Ann Tolly (21:05):
You know, positive, I would say, really is when I was
called in at one of theconferences there.
We always went out, you know,for the conferences.
For our national conferencesyeah, national conferences.
Right, del was on the board andhe told me that Pastor Bob
Fleischman wanted to see me andhe said we were walking down
(21:27):
there.
And he said do you think youdid something wrong in your
counseling?
And I said, well, I guess I'llfind out.
So I got in there and then hewas telling us about the doors
to Ukraine had opened and thatthey would like very much if I
would go with Brad Mattis, whichI didn't know him at the time,
(21:50):
and I said I will go if myhusband said you know?
He said he would let me go, beblessed and he said yes, so I
went and helped.
Christa Potratz (22:00):
And how long were you there in Ukraine and
what did you do?
Ann Tolly (22:04):
You know, I don't know how many we went twice.
We went one year and then thenext year and we went to schools
here in America.
They wouldn't let us intoschools In Ukraine.
They opened the doors and wewent to classroom after
classroom.
We went into colleges and thecolleges another college found
(22:26):
out what we were doing and theysaid we want you in our college.
Well, I said we were going backto America the next day.
Well, you have to come back.
But anyway, those wereopportunities that, you know, I
never would have dreamt having,because here in America, you
know, they just wouldn't do.
But there were a lot of otherthings that the Lord had in mind
(22:47):
for us in Ukraine.
It was, I think, the second timethere that the outgoing
president of Ukraine was two orthree doors down at the hotel
from me.
That would never happen inAmerica.
So I told my translator.
He said you're going to haveauthority on this floor, here
(23:12):
and everything.
And I said, well, I'm going tomeet him.
Oh, and he laughed at me.
He said, no, you're not.
And I said, yes, I am.
So he worked with me to get thepronunciation of them.
So the next morning I steppedout across the doorway and
waited for my translator.
He no sooner did.
He says don't move.
And I said what's wrong?
He says he's coming, thepresident's coming.
(23:35):
I just stood there and hestopped and he came forward out
of his security.
People came over and he reachedfor my hand and kissed my hand
and he said who are you and whatare you doing in my country?
And while he asked wow, what anopportunity.
So I told him I said well,we're here to tell your people
(23:59):
about the development of theunborn baby and we're going to
tell them all about abortion,what it does to the person that
has the abortion, and this iswhy we're here in your beautiful
country, ukraine.
And I said when you're killingthese babies, that means that
you're killing people that wouldvote for you babies, that means
(24:23):
that you're killing people thatwould vote for you.
So that kind of ended mydiscussion with him and I asked
him if I could give him a gift,and he told his people of
authority around him protectinghim.
You know that it was okay forme to go back in the room and I
got him one of those real prettybulbs that were given out with
declaring Jesus' birthday, youknow, and he thanked me.
(24:43):
Well then he went down to Bradand Brad gave him one of those
little pins with the feet and hesaid he was very interested and
he said I will wear it and tellothers.
Now we don't know if he did ornot, we don't know that, but
those were the very importantthings in Ukraine and I
understand that their centersare still going on there.
(25:05):
That was really wonderful tohear.
Bob Fleischmann (25:10):
We ended up growing it to five.
We had five centers in Ukraine.
We were helping Fossafaith withtheir mobile medical and dental
unit and while we were there,Ann did some training and so
forth and we got five centersgoing, Like you said.
I think some of them are stillgoing.
I mean, we turned it back overto Thoughts of Faith and they're
(25:32):
not in that information loop.
But yeah, ann, I still rememberasking Ann to go to Ukraine.
Ann didn't only do that for us,I think.
We sent you to California, wesent you to other places in the
United States to do training andit was funny because Ann was so
good at this that she almostwas too good, because you watch
(25:54):
her and you go.
I don't think I could do itlike she does, but you really
were good, thank you, that wasthe Lord, I was just His
instrument.
Thank, you.
Ann Tolly (26:00):
That was the Lord.
I was just His instrument.
I really want to make thatclear.
I was just simply Hisinstrument.
He gets all the glory.
Christa Potratz (26:10):
And I wanted to ask you, too, a question.
You had also talked about yourwork talking to women after they
had had an abortion, doing thattype of counseling.
What, maybe, was one of yourbiggest takeaways from doing
that?
Nowadays, too, we hear allsorts of things.
We hear how so many peopledon't regret their abortion, or
(26:34):
people that do, or oh, there'snothing really that wrong about
it.
So what did you find, actually,with talking to the women?
Ann Tolly (26:43):
They were very suicidal.
It seemed to be that I got thesuicide calls when I was on
hotline, which I wasn't everynight, but I got really hard
calls, really hard calls forsuicide, really hard calls,
(27:06):
really hard calls for suicide.
The one particular one had afather who was a Lutheran day
school teacher at the time andshe just didn't want him to ever
know what she had done and shewas going to commit suicide that
night.
Well, I think I was on thephone two hours at least with
her and I just asked her.
I asked the Lord.
I said well, lord, you're goingto have to really help me.
(27:29):
This is a tough one.
And he let me to use thecatechism, which was you know.
I just couldn't believe it.
But I asked all these questionsout of the catechism and she
responded so it must have been.
The Lord, of course, knew herand knew that she knew the
catechism because of her fatherbeing a teacher.
(27:51):
He probably discussed all thesethings with her too.
But at the end she promised meshe would not commit suicide and
I drove north a couple hoursfrom the center to meet her at a
restaurant.
I told her what clothes I wasgoing to wear and what I kind of
looked like.
And so I drove up there and Isaid I'm just going to stand by
(28:14):
the door and wait.
And I said you see me, you cancome and get me.
And I stood and waited andwaited and I just, if you see me
, you can come and get me.
And I stood and waited andwaited and I just had the fear
of that.
Oh no, but then she, this woman, young woman, came up and she
said are you Ann?
I said yes, so we got.
We asked for a booth.
(28:36):
That was way away, because shedidn't want anyone to hear what
she was going to tell me, youknow, and but that was a real
hard one, I think.
The other one was one that Inever, ever did meet for a long
time.
She told me a story and shesaid no one's going to believe
me.
And I said well, I'm going tobelieve you.
(28:56):
I said I believe whateveryou're going to tell me.
And she had had an abortion andshe went out in the woods with
her car and blocked it up so allthe gas fumes would be inside,
and she said now she said I wassitting in there waiting to die.
Outside the car, she said, andthere were demons.
(29:20):
They were terrible, terrifyingdemons.
They were just like screamingat me and she said, inside my
car it was white, bright, and Iknew they were the angels of the
Lord and they were there toprotect me.
She said they were fightingthose demons.
I got out of the car and tookout the stuff and went home and
(29:45):
then she called me and then Imet her a long time afterwards
and we're still friends and westill talk.
But the memories of the center,oh, my goodness, I'll never
forget it.
There was a creaking, old,rusty sign and it was right
before the driveway.
I don't know if you rememberthat, bob, that was an old,
(30:07):
rusty one.
It says total protection and itwas often.
We gave that direction.
Well, you come to totalprotection and then you turn in
there and we're in with thedentist.
Well, that sign eventually felldown.
But I'll tell you, but thewonder of it all, god's total
protection continued us thereyear after year after year.
(30:31):
So that is a wonderful memoryfor me too.
Christa Potratz (30:35):
And what would you tell someone who maybe wants
to start volunteering orgetting involved in counseling,
in pro-life work?
What would you share with them?
Ann Tolly (30:50):
Well, I would say, first of all, to truly know that
you're a sinner too, you haveto know the Lord, you have to
know the Lord's word and believeit.
There's so many many wonderfulblessings that come forth by
talking to these people andseeing them, and you know, I
(31:11):
have at least eight of mypost-abortion people that have
traveled here to where I live tosee us and meet my dear Lowell
too, and we correspond too, andwe correspond.
(31:33):
It's just wonderful.
So you get so much more thanyou give.
That's what I always felt.
I have to remember one of myvery special men.
Oh, I'll never forget him, andhe may even hear this podcast,
and he would be so thankful if Itold this story.
But he had abortions withseveral of his girlfriends.
Then he married one of thegirls and guess what?
(31:54):
They had a baby and all of thiswas realistic.
Now what?
It was a real baby, and itdrove him to drugs and alcohol
and everything.
One night he was going to godown to the river he was telling
me this and he had a gun and hewent out and this man came up
(32:19):
out of nowhere and said to himwhen are you going?
He said I'm just going down tothe river.
What are you going to do there?
Well, I'm just going down tothe river.
What are you going to do there?
Well, I'm just going down there.
He said well then you don'tneed the gun.
He said give me your gun.
And he said I gave him the gun.
And he said later I knew thatwas an angel.
(32:40):
An angel had come to stop mefrom killing myself.
And he came to my classes and itwas through Brad Mattis's
putting out signs about men,because I think Brad was one of
the first ones that were reallygetting men into counseling
(33:02):
really do.
And he called brad and he's,and brad said uh, well, where
are you located?
He said in michigan, in thedetroit area.
And he said well then he said Ihave someone I want you to see
and it's a woman, but don'tworry, uh, she'd be like a
grandmother to you.
She's that she's older than you.
(33:23):
So he came and that night hecalled and I went over to the
center.
It was night, but I told Del,my husband.
I said well, I'm going to bemeeting this man tonight.
So I get out of the car and Isee this big, curly truck driver
and he says are you Ann?
(33:46):
I said yes, I am.
He said are you alone?
I said no, I'm not alone.
Well, he said well, who's withyou?
And I said the Lord.
He said does your husband knowyou're here with me?
And I said yes, he does.
I said I don't have any fear.
I said I know why you're hereand I'm going to help you.
(34:08):
So we became really goodfriends in Athabiri and I'll
never forget it because I had noone ever probably I'll cry
telling you this.
But he said when we get toheaven, he said is it okay that
I'm going to come and hug you?
Because I told him I was ahugger, you know.
(34:29):
And he said I'm going to comeover and hug you.
And he says I just want to tellyou that I'm here because you
were the one that invited mehere.
Bob Fleischmann (34:39):
Wow, Well, ann, there probably is no one in the
history of our organizationthat has probably had tentacles
of love and concern that havespread so far out.
I mean, you've been a profoundanchor for my life and for the
work we do and, like I said, Igive you part of the credit for
(35:00):
New Beginnings.
Well, I didn't even know that.
You're just an incredibleblessing, and the incredible
part of it all is that you stillare.
I mean, through this podcastand I think through people who
contact you, you'll continue.
What you've always seen andwhat I've taken to heart is a
(35:23):
lifelong legacy of thinking ofothers ahead of yourself and
always, even in your light,pointing to the Lord.
Christa Potratz (35:32):
We just thank you so much for everything that
you've done throughout yourcareer and life in this work,
but also for sharing it with ustoday too.
So thank you so much.
Ann Tolly (35:45):
This was a walk down memory lane, exactly what Bob
said.
No one has ever asked me aboutthat, and I treasured this.
I really did.
Christa Potratz (35:56):
Well, thank you so much, Anne, for sharing all
of this with us today.
We really appreciate it.
I would thank everyone forjoining us today and we'll see
you back next time.
Bye-bye.
Paul Snamiska (36:07):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of
the Life Challenges podcast fromChristian Life Resources.
Please consider subscribing tothis podcast, giving us a review
wherever you access it andsharing it with friends.
We're sure you have questionson today's topic or other life
issues.
Our goal is to help you throughthese tough topics and we want
(36:27):
you to know we're here to help.
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
suggestions for future episodes,at lifechallengesus or email us
at podcast atchristianliferesourcescom.
In addition to the podcasts, weinclude other valuable
information at lifechallengesus,so be sure to check it out.
(36:50):
For more about our parentorganization, please visit
christianliferesourcescom.
May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge, everyLife Challenge.
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