July 22, 2025 • 32 mins
What happens when church members abandon biblical values for cultural ones? Our hosts dive into troubling survey results showing that in one Lutheran denomination, 54% of churchgoers support legal abortion and 50% favor same-sex marriage—despite clear biblical teachings to the contrary.
This eye-opening discussion explores why Christians increasingly adopt secular positions contrary to Scripture. The problem runs deeper than simple rebellion or ignorance. When pastors have members for only an hour or two weekly while cultural messages bombard them constantly, the battle for hearts and minds becomes challenging. Add confirmation bias—our tendency to filter out information that challenges existing beliefs—and you have a recipe for spiritual disconnect.
The heart of the issue often lies in sermon application. While pastors excel at preaching law and gospel, many struggle with helping congregants apply biblical truth to daily life. As Bob Fleischmann observes, "You can't enhance the gospel. The gospel is perfect, but you can get in the way of it." Without concrete, relevant applications, churchgoers fail to connect Sunday morning teaching with Monday's ethical dilemmas.
Our hosts offer practical solutions for both pastors and laypeople. Ministers are encouraged to study texts deeply enough to draw natural, relevant applications, while congregation members should actively engage with sermons and bring real-life questions to their spiritual leaders. The goal isn't merely doctrinal purity but helping believers navigate complex moral issues with biblical wisdom.
Whether you're a pastor seeking to strengthen your application skills or a church member wondering why biblical teaching isn't influencing your congregation more deeply, this conversation provides invaluable insights into bridging the gap between eternal truth and contemporary challenges.
What moral issues do you wish your pastor would address more directly? Share your thoughts at lifechallenges.us or email podcast@christianliferesources.com.
SHOW NOTES:
Find strength and courage in your faith at this year’s FEARLESS FAITH Conference. Inspired by Joshua 1:9, “Be strong and courageous,” join us Saturday, September 13, at Kettle Moraine Lutheran High School in Jackson, Wisconsin, for presentations on navigating life’s storms, understanding God’s peace, and engaging in crucial conversations about euthanasia, anorexia, abortion, prenatal genetic testing, and more. Hear powerful journeys of faith through loss and hope. Don’t miss this empowering event! $50 in person or $40 virtual. Register now: https://christianliferesources.com/resources/events/2025-conference/
Find strength and courage in your faith at this year’s FEARLESS FAITH Conference. Inspired by Joshua 1:9, “Be strong and courageous,” join us Saturday, September 13, at Kettle Moraine Lutheran High School in Jackson, Wisconsin, for presentations on navigating life’s storms, understanding God’s peace, and engaging in crucial conversations about euthanasia, anorexia, abortion, prenatal genetic testing, and more. Hear powerful journeys of faith through loss and hope. Don’t miss this empowering event! $50 in person or $40 virtual. Register now: https://christianliferesources.com/resources/events/2025-conference/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
on today's episode.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I've often said you can't enhance the gospel.
The gospel is perfect, but youcan get in the way of it and
oftentimes, if we poorly planout the application, we get in
the way of it.
If we don't make it pertinent,if we don't make it real, if we
don't make it explicit, we doget in the way of it.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources.
People today face manyopportunities and struggles when
it comes to issues of life anddeath, marriage and family,
health and science.
We're here to bring a freshbiblical perspective to these
issues and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Hi and welcome.
If you are joining us for thefirst time to this podcast.
My name is Krista Potratz.
I am a wife and mother of four,and every week I sit down with
Pastor Bob Fleischman, theNational Director of Christian
Life Resources, and JeffSamuelson, who has been a pastor
for many years, and we discusslife and family topics, and
(01:12):
today we are going to talk aboutwhat people need to hear from
the pulpit, from their pastors.
There's really a lot we couldsay on this topic.
We have two pastors here whohave served at various
congregations, and I'm sure weall have listened to a fair
number of sermons as well overthe years.
(01:33):
Jeff, you were the one who kindof brought this topic to our
attention and I think you hadfound had come across some
information that propelled youto think about this topic and to
bring it for us to discusstoday.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Bob had some responsibility for this as well
in terms of some articles thathe sent around by email and
things like that, but I justthought that this would be a
really useful topic for us here,because it's the kind of thing
that affects everyone who goesto church.
It's not just okay, well, whatshould the pastors do?
It's a concern for everyonewho's there to have their faith
(02:10):
fed.
And what prompted it?
The particular thing was therewas a recent survey taken of an
American Lutheran church bodynot Wells or ELS, we're not
going to name it.
We don't want this to come offas we're picking on them or
we're puffing ourselves up inany way.
It's just that this gives us anoccasion to do some soul
searching and say, okay, well,what about this?
(02:31):
About where the membership ofthat church body was, on various
moral issues and societalissues that scripture is really
pretty clear on.
So we just thought it would bereally good to have a chance to
(02:53):
talk about this and see how itcan help us get a fix on what we
are doing right and whatperhaps we should be doing
better.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Now, within the practice of Christian faith,
there's kind of like threestatuses that we have with a
church or a congregation.
One is just membership.
Those of us who have pastoredchurches understand that,
depending on the nature of thechurch and so forth, there's a
certain percentage that holdmembership but hardly attend.
They're holidays and specialoccasion type attendees and then
(03:22):
you've got what you hope to bethe majority that are in a
worship service but don't gobeyond that.
And then there are the thirdlevel and those who are in
worship service and also engagedin Bible class.
So whenever I've looked atcongregations I kind of see it
in those three ways.
And one of the challenges,unique challenges you have as a
preacher and not just as thepastor but as someone who has
(03:45):
guest preached in countlesschurches you kind of have to
always target for your lowestdenominator, because if you
start shooting over the head ofthe people, they're not going to
show up, they don't get it.
Well, the problem is, then youget that segment that's in Bible
class.
It's like, oh, we're hearingthe same thing.
Now I don't think the solutionis as hard as we make it, but it
(04:10):
is a challenge.
It's a challenge for the pastor.
I know we deal with it in ourhomiletics instruction at the
seminary.
When I've taught my adjunctcourses for the seminary, we've
talked about integrating lifeissues into preaching and into
Bible study and so forth.
There's a way to do it, butpart of it is it's a twofold
thing.
I think it has to do with thepastor understanding what he's
(04:32):
going to try to accomplishduring that 60 minutes on a
Sunday morning, and there's alsothe part of the person sitting
in the pew and what they'relooking for.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
So I wanted to just start by reading some of these
results from the survey thatJeff had mentioned earlier.
So some of the results includeand these show that, among
members of the church body, 54%say that abortion should be
legal in all or most cases,while 45% say it should be
(05:03):
illegal in all or most cases.
Another one, too, was only 53%believe there are clear
standards for what is right andwrong, while 46% believe that
right or wrong depends on thesituation.
50% strongly favor or favorsame-sex marriage, while only
47% favor same-sex marriage,while only 47% strongly oppose
(05:30):
or oppose it.
So we know that the Bible isquite clear about what God has
to say about all these things.
Why should we assume that thereare similar problems with
people rejecting God's truth infavor of the culture's lies in
our churches, even if thepercentages aren't as bad?
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Yeah, well, again, it would be so easy for us to
point the finger and say well,you know, we're not like that.
You know because we teach theBible right in our churches.
Yeah, and everyone in ourchurches is a sinner with a
sinful nature, just as in everyother church, and every one of
the members of our churches andI should say pastors as well is
(06:06):
a part of the culture we live in.
This world.
We're not all hermits, anddefinitely shouldn't be hermits,
and so we're going to beaffected by the things that are
around us, whether it's from theTV that we watch or the things
that we follow on social media,the friends that we have, what
our families have to say.
Other people's attitudes aregoing to affect us, and even if
(06:29):
you are a member of a churchthat is teaching 100% the right
things on these kinds of issuesand everything else, the
pastor's got members for maybean hour, maybe two hours a week.
The culture's got them.
The rest of the time, theirfriends have them, their family
has them, social media has themand, generally speaking, the
(06:50):
other side has a lot moreinfluence in that respect, and
so it's going to be work,constant, consistent work, to
keep people on the straight andnarrow as far as things like
this are, and we should not besurprised when we find out that
people who are even regularly inour pews are going to have
attitudes that are more justkind of like well, yeah, I know
(07:12):
that's what they say, that'swhat the pastor has to say,
because he's the pastor, but Idon't think it's a big deal if I
believe something different.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
There's a I think we've talked about it in the
past a thing called confirmationbias, which is this thing that
(07:47):
we do that when you develop abias and if it's formed, like
Jeff, reinforce your bias youtend to tune out to things that
challenge your bias, and so itwas interesting.
I was listening over theweekend.
I was listening to a sermon bya pastor who talked about how
people oftentimes will say oh,finally, I'm hearing the gospel,
finally, I'm learning.
Finally I'm growing.
Now the thing is I'm hearingthe gospel, finally, I'm
learning.
Finally I'm growing.
Now the thing is is I'veencountered people like that and
(08:09):
I've known their pastors thatthey had when they were younger.
They were, I think, far bettergospel proclaimers than I was,
but sometimes you just youweren't there spiritually.
You had a confirmation biasthat led you in a different
direction.
You were looking for answers todating.
You were looking for answers todating.
You were looking for answers onhow to get along with a trying
relationship at work.
(08:29):
So you weren't in tune towhat's my relationship like with
God.
I've heard that message beforeI start tuning it out.
So I think a lot of times whenpeople come into church, they
either are coming in looking fortheir own message and then only
accept their own message.
You know, in other words, theyonly accept that bias.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I mean, I think both of you have touched on why there
is this disconnect might occuras well, other than maybe just
the culture or the confirmationbias, as Bob has said.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Well, one possibility we certainly have to consider
is that people were neveractually taught the truth.
Maybe they had a pastor orpastors who taught the truth
more generally about things butnever made this specific
application.
Well, on this particular issue,like abortion or same-sex
marriage, they never actuallyconnected the dots and said
(09:34):
because the Bible teaches thisand we know that to be true,
this is what, therefore, ourposition on this issue is going
to be.
It's entirely possible theywere never taught and it's also,
then, kind of what Bob wastalking about.
They never learned it, becauseanyone who's ever taught
realizes there's a bigdisconnect between teaching
something and it actually beinglearned and another one, and
(09:57):
this is perhaps one of the morecommon.
I think that people were taughtand learned the truth at one
time, say when they were incatechism instruction or
something like that, and maybethey believed it very well then.
But it's been a while.
They've had more opportunityfor the culture and friends and
such to influence them, and sothey've just kind of left it
(10:20):
behind.
It caused me some friction,some conflict, to hold on to
those biblical ideas, and I'mnot comfortable with that now.
So I'm going to set it asidefor now, and they don't see a
problem with it.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
You know, sometimes people think that the church
should have a manual of do's anddon'ts.
People will call our office andthey'll say what is our
position on?
And then you fill in the blankthey would like a manual.
Just, are we for it or are weagainst it, and so forth.
And what people don't realizeis how inadequate that is.
Because if such a manual werecreated, it's predicated on your
(10:55):
relationship with God.
And so when you decide to lead achaste life, a life that's holy
in your relationship with eachother and in your relationship
with God, if you're going to beliving by rules and regulations,
that's going to be foremost onyour mind all the time.
And you're going to quicklydiscover that we're dramatic
(11:17):
failures in that regard.
You know they're just.
I could never be holy enough, Icould never be perfect enough.
And so you begin to kind ofsurrender on it.
And there's countless storieson.
You know people who have triedto.
You know, this time I'm goingto really buckle down.
This time I'm going to really,you know, hold true and then
fail miserably.
And then after a while you knowyou fail so many times you just
(11:39):
want to give up and so you tuneout.
Now one of the problems that Ithink that I experienced in my
own ministry, without castingdispersions on others, is I've
always wrestled with the thirdpart of the sermon.
You know there's the preachingthe law and preaching the gospel
(11:59):
.
You know we're all sinners.
That's the law, the gospel.
Jesus died for your sins.
Then you get to the third part,the gospel.
You know we're all sinners.
That's the law, the gospel.
Jesus died for your sins.
Then you get to the third part,the application.
And it's funny because I haveheard the law proclaimed most
excellently and the gospel mostexcellently and then just a
dramatic implosion onapplication because it either
(12:23):
was a very poor application, itwas an unreal application.
I think we've all heard thatonce in a while You'll hear a
pastor make an application andit's like what world is he on?
Nobody even watches that showanymore.
So sometimes the applicationsare just poor and I've tried to
(12:43):
study.
I've been doing one of thosetrying to read through the Bible
chronologically multiple timesin a year and one of the things
I'm discovering is like when weget into the Gospels, jesus
almost starts off with theapplication and then starts to
unpack it.
He starts to you, starts totalk about, like he'll start off
(13:05):
with the parable of thePharisee and the tax collector,
and he'll tell you this parableand of course his point is
pretty clear that there arepeople like that, there's always
.
I think the problem is is theapplication requires the most
work, because the law and thegospel is so explicit in
(13:25):
Scripture and it's timeless.
But the application istime-sensitive.
If you're still going to talkabout a party line on talking on
your telephone, you've kind oflost the time-sensitive part of
it.
They haven't done that sincethe 60s and 50s and before that.
(13:47):
You know and you need to.
You know, kind of stay currentand meet people where they're at
.
So I think that that's one ofthe problems I still go back to,
though I've often felt that theworship service is where we
focus on praising God, felt thatthe worship service is where we
focus on praising God.
So there's a lot of emphasis, alot of attention on the songs,
(14:14):
the worship, the liturgy, biblestudy is where you focus on the
nitty-gritty, the detail, and sowe are faced in that with a 20
to 25-minute period of time, or15 to 25-minute period of time
time with a sermon, and in thattime we're going to kind of use
Jeff's analogy earlier.
We're going to try to undo whatthe culture has been trying to
do to you all week, and we'regoing to try to do that in 15 to
(14:35):
25 minutes.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Going back to kind of what you were saying about the
law and gospel getting a lot ofairtime.
So to speak and maybe not somuch with the application.
I mean, could it be becausethat pastors just feel like,
okay, I don't want to talk toomuch about the application, I
want people to just apply ithowever they see fit.
Or is it maybe more of what Bobwas saying, a time-sensitive
(15:01):
type of thing?
Speaker 4 (15:02):
Well, there are a lot of considerations there.
I mean, part of it is, you know, within our circles,
particularly in the Wells,there's a real sensitivity.
We don't want to be pietistic,you know, so we don't want to
come down too much into thetelling people how to live their
lives, you know, focusing somuch on sanctification that we
don't talk enough about thegospel, and that's a legitimate
(15:39):
concern.
But there's such a thing as anovercorrection.
And if you're not talking aboutsanctification, boy, I wanted
to share all that stuff.
You don't always have room,after you've shared the
wonderful things you've learnedfrom the text, to do much of
application of the text, and Isuspect I'm not alone in having
done that.
And maybe it's like, oh, I wantto teach all the details of
(16:00):
really fascinating stuff aboutthis text.
And then, well, yeah, you'veused up most of your time doing
that because it's a fascinatingtext.
Or maybe you know it's more theokay, maybe the text itself
isn't so fascinating, butthere's really good law here, or
there's really good gospel here, and you focus on that and it's
like, oh, yeah, I guess I oughtto add something to it.
(16:25):
And okay, this is a personalbugaboo of mine In our circles
very often with many sermons,it's like there's only one
application available, it'sshare the gospel.
That's a good application, butit's not every sermon, it's not
every text that does that, and Ithink getting away from there's
sometimes an almost an allergyto getting specific about some
of these issues that are goingon in people's lives.
And the flip side of that is,if the main thing people are
(16:46):
hearing is, well, what I reallyneed to do is share the gospel
with my neighbor, there's aneasy way for them to just kind
of say, well, all that otherstuff about how I should be
living my life, the opinions Ishould have and things like that
, that's not so important solong as I'm sharing the gospel.
And of course, it's a both-andsituation, not an either-or, but
(17:07):
it's very natural to slip intothe either-or.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
I've often said, you can't enhance the gospel.
The gospel is perfect, but youcan get in the way of it and
oftentimes if we poorly plan outthe application, we get in the
way of it.
If we don't make it pertinent,if we don't make it real, if we
don't make it explicit, we doget in the way of it.
I remember a board meeting,maybe 15, 20 years ago.
(17:35):
We had a board member who'sbeen a guest on this podcast in
the past, who talked about astudent of his having researched
a Some old 1960s, 1970s collegework that had been done, and on
it there was a page and it saidon the next page is everything
(17:56):
you need to know as a pastor, inaddition to the law and the
gospel.
And then you turn the page andit was blank.
And it was, of course, a timeof that emphasis.
You know that you want to getthe law and you want to get the
gospel out there, but theproblem is is that if you can't
enhance it, you can only get inthe way of it.
And if somebody is havingtrouble understanding, well, how
does this connect with my life?
(18:18):
You've gotten in the way of it.
Why?
Because, if you're like a lotof people, your mind starts
wandering but what about thisand what about that?
And how do I do this and how doI do that?
When I listen to podcasts ofpreachers and they talk about
different issues, my mind goesthere constantly Okay, that's a
good point, but what about this?
And that's a good point, whatabout that?
(18:38):
And I think you learn fromJesus.
You learn from the Apostle Pauland Peter and James and John
and all the other apostles Iguess let's just put them all
out there but you learn from allof them that people are dealing
with real issues and they aresometimes sheep without a
shepherd.
They are wandering and theymight have an excellent shepherd
(18:59):
, but for reasons beyond theshepherd's control, they're just
tuning out and you need to givethem something practical.
You need to give them a rope toconnect to give him something
practical?
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Did he give him a rope to connect to?
I think, you know, there's thiskind of mentality like that
people need to come right tojust like hear the Word of God
and be fed, which is, I mean,completely true.
But when you were mentioning,too, I also think, of all the
people that came to Jesus andthey wanted him to heal their
sick, like they wanted the fixfor their day-to-day problems.
(19:33):
They were so immersed in whatwas going on in their own lives
and I mean he did come to themduring those times and stuff too
.
And so I think that you knowlike when maybe pastors get a
little frustrated, like you know, people always wanting to hear
application or always wantingthat, I mean, I think, people,
(19:54):
that is what they're hungry forin a sense too.
And so what is something maybethat pastors can do if they do
feel, maybe, that they should domore for their people to
connect the truths of Scriptureto the real world, for their
people to connect the truths ofScripture to the real world,
whether it be morals or socialissues.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Well, this is going to sound almost contradictory to
the things we've been talkingabout, but good text study
actually helps with this, Ithink, and what I mean by that
is not necessarily okay.
I'm going to do all this reallydetailed dive into the grammar
of this particular text.
I'm not dissing that at all,but to do the okay, what is the
(20:33):
specific law here?
So it's not just sin is bad,you're a sinner, you need to be
forgiven.
But okay, what is a specificsin that exists in people's
lives that this addresses?
And then how does the gospelspecifically address that as
well?
Because then from there, themore specific you are with those
(20:54):
things, the more naturally youare able to move into those
applications that are aboutwhat's actually going on in
people's lives, just as a, forinstance not putting myself up
as any kind of paragon ofanything here, but I preached
this past Sunday and I had theopportunity in that sermon to
talk about a sin that wasevident in that text and that
(21:19):
related to.
You know, today, somethingsimilar would be anti-Semitism,
hatred of Jews, hatred ofMuslims and things like that.
That then created a very easyapplication to the point of well
, this is not who we're going tobe.
We should be not looking atpeople with hatred, looking at
them to be punished, but lookingokay, this is a lost soul that
(21:40):
needs Jesus and it's like, oh,it's a chance for people to say,
oh, maybe that's something I'vegot in my life, or maybe my
uncle Phil has this kind ofattitude, and I've never really
thought about that as sinful,but I just thought of it as a
quirk.
But yeah, actually that's notChristian and it's those kinds
of things.
The opportunity is there whenyou delve a little deeper and
(22:04):
make those very specificapplications that come straight
out of the text, and I thinkthat's helpful.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
In the early years of CLR we would get not many, but
we would get letters from somepastors who were complaining
that it's social gospel.
You know, if you're going tojust talk about abortion, that's
social gospel and part of itwas not understanding what we
were doing and how we do it.
But there is that idea and yetat the same time, I think a lot
(22:33):
of times as pastors we have toask ourselves why did people
come to church in the firstplace?
Why are you listening to thispodcast?
Are you listening to thispodcast because we're going to
talk about just law or justgospel?
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Because of you, bob.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, right, yeah just law or just gospel?
Because of you, bob, yeah,right, yeah.
Now we're coming to the podcastbecause we're dealing with an
issue and we need a connection.
You know what would God have meto do?
And why are you concerned aboutthat?
Why?
Because you've got to earnGod's favor.
Absolutely not.
That's part of the message thatgood preaching, good sermon
structure will help you in thatyou're trying to remind people
(23:11):
you're not earning anything fromGod.
He's done that for you throughChrist.
But your entire life is atestimony of gratitude, it's a
testimony of the deepestappreciation.
So your willingness tosacrifice for the well-being of
others, your willingness tospeak up for those who cannot
speak for themselves, it's notrooted, not even, in a sense of
(23:31):
obligation.
It's rooted in a sense ofgratitude.
It's rooted in a sense that youknow when I—you've heard me use
the terminologybefore—realizing that you are a
spiritual abortion, realizingthat you have no life outside of
Christ, that you have no lifeoutside of Christ and God
changed that in the gift of hisSon, and it moves you to make
(23:53):
connections in other areas oflife.
I mean, we've been around, youknow.
We're old enough.
We've been around long enoughto see even dramatic changes in
the last three to four decadesand our lay people face it To
some degree.
We live in a little bit of acocoon.
Most of our friends are peoplewho think like us and send their
kids to our schools and soforth.
(24:14):
You step outside of that arena.
There are some genuine, realproblems.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Now we kind of have talked a lot about what pastors
can do and that type of thing,but also want to talk about what
lay people can do as well tohelp make this connection happen
in their churches, for them andalso for fellow members as well
.
But before I ask you thatquestion, I want to answer it.
Good, good.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
Gives us time to think.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
For me this week.
It was really kind of neat Withour church.
We're doing this reading aBible in a year on the app we're
doing chronologically, and so Iwas reading about King Asa
earlier this past week and hereally struck me.
He was a king of Judah and hewas one of the good kings, after
(25:04):
a couple, I think, bad kingsthat were there.
But it did say that towards theend of his life he was not
always going to the Lord anymoreand it gave a couple of
instances where he just kind ofwent on his own or consulted
other people and didn't go tothe Lord and he was still
(25:24):
considered considered a goodking.
But it just reminded me of justthis idea too, that just how
important it is to go to God foreverything and to continue that
mindset through everything wedo through our whole life.
And then I was listening to mysermon this Sunday and it wasn't
(25:48):
at all talking anything aboutthe Old Testament.
It was the text was from theNew Testament with Jesus.
But the topic was how committedare you, was the sermon topic,
and it was talking about Jesus.
And when the people had come upto him, I believe it was the
man who had said I want tofollow you, but let me just bury
(26:11):
my father first or you know, Iwant to follow you, but I want
to say goodbye to my family, andso just that connection.
And then after the sermon, thenI was able to talk to my
children about it at dinner thatnight too, like, oh, I read
this, and then we talked aboutthis in the sermon, and this is
(26:37):
just a very long way to say thatbeing in God's Word and getting
yourself fed in multiple ways,you can start to really see
these beautiful connections andthey hit you for your life too,
and so it's almost like theapplication kind of comes from
when you are hearing the messagein so many different ways.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
You stated positively and wonderfully what negatively
is.
The problem that a lot ofpeople have is that they don't
connect Sunday morning and whatthey might hear from the pulpit
with the rest of their lives.
And there are very few people,I'm sure, who consciously say,
well, I'm not going to connectthose things.
(27:17):
It's an unconscious thing and,as it is with unconscious things
, we need to try to be moreconscious of that.
We need to think about it.
It's like is this what's goingon in my life?
Am I doing that?
I'm sure there are plenty ofcases where you'd ask a member
does your pastor ever talk aboutX issue?
And they say no, no, I've neverheard that.
It's like go back and checkwith Pastor X and his sermons.
(27:39):
Yes, actually he has.
It's just well, I wasn't makingthat connection no-transcript
(28:16):
engaging with their sermons.
And you know, in those caseswhere you're a pastor sitting
there and you're studying onWednesday morning, how am I
going to work application intothis?
You've just been handed one,and so that's another way you
can help your pastor and you'reblessing the rest of your
congregation by doing so.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
You know about maybe it's been seven months ago or
longer we started this serieshere at CLR called Deep Punk.
What we do is we collect everyargument made, like we started
with abortion, we did assistedsuicide, we did gender issues
I'm up to my hips right now inrelationship issues and what we
(28:55):
do is we try to use everyobjection that people have
raised to a Christianperspective.
And it's like my version of mymembers coming up to me and
saying how come we haven'ttalked about this or how come
you haven't mentioned that?
Because when you read it, youlook at it and you go, oh yeah,
I guess I do recall hearing thatand I do see that when I read
(29:17):
newspaper articles or magazinearticles that that idea is
floating out there and it forcesme to be very practical and, as
the writer of those articles,it also forces me to be very
biblical, which means I have toconnect it to the Word of God, I
have to connect it to the law,I have to connect it to the
gospel.
But I'm starting with the issue.
(29:39):
You know I remember inhomiletics at the seminary
preaching class, being told thatyou know that's kind of a
dangerous way to start, you know, because normally we were
taught that you start with thepericope series, which is an
assigned readings, and you pickone out and then you dissect it
and you share it.
But the reality is that youknow it also requires discipline
(29:59):
on the preacher's part to notkeep beating the same dog to
death.
I always remember, when I cameto CLR, my homiletics professor
who's still alive said to meonce just don't make every
sermon about abortion.
And I don't.
That doesn't mean I don'tmention abortion in every sermon
(30:20):
, but it's not about abortion.
In fact, I can't tell you thelast time I preached on abortion
, but chances are pretty good.
I mentioned it the last time Ipreached.
The point is that yourperspective on it and when you
make applications, you're tryingto connect them to real life.
So what I'm saying is laityneeds to keep their pastor in
(30:40):
the loop and if you've got apastor who's not a people person
, you've got to work a littlebit harder at it.
Now, I know that sounds weird,but we've all seen pastors who
are not people persons.
I'm probably not a peopleperson, but when people work and
understand and work with him onit, he tries to weave it in,
not only in what he preaches,but also in what he writes in
the newsletter and so forth.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Well, I think there is probably a lot more we could
say about this topic.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Maybe we'll talk about it again in the future
here, but thank you both foreverything on this topic and we
thank all of our listeners toofor joining us, and if you have
any questions related to thistopic, please reach out to us.
I mean, we'd love to know whatyou also think you know your
pastor should be talking about,and if you have any thoughts on
(31:31):
the subject at all, we'd love tohear them.
You can reach us atlifechallengesus and we look
forward to having you back nexttime.
Thanks a lot, bye.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Life
Challenges podcast fromChristian Life Resources.
Please consider subscribing tothis podcast, giving us a review
wherever you access it andsharing it with friends.
We're sure you have questionson today's topic or other life
issues.
Our goal is to help you throughthese tough topics and we want
you to know we're here to help.
(32:03):
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
suggestions for future episodes,at lifechallengesus or email us
at podcast atchristianliferesourcescom.
In addition to the podcasts, weinclude other valuable
information at lifechallengesus,so be sure to check it out.
(32:25):
For more about our parentorganization, please visit
christLifeResourcescom.
May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge.
on today's episode.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I've often said you can't enhance the gospel.
The gospel is perfect, but youcan get in the way of it and
oftentimes, if we poorly planout the application, we get in
the way of it.
If we don't make it pertinent,if we don't make it real, if we
don't make it explicit, we doget in the way of it.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources.
People today face manyopportunities and struggles when
it comes to issues of life anddeath, marriage and family,
health and science.
We're here to bring a freshbiblical perspective to these
issues and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Hi and welcome.
If you are joining us for thefirst time to this podcast.
My name is Krista Potratz.
I am a wife and mother of four,and every week I sit down with
Pastor Bob Fleischman, theNational Director of Christian
Life Resources, and JeffSamuelson, who has been a pastor
for many years, and we discusslife and family topics, and
(01:12):
today we are going to talk aboutwhat people need to hear from
the pulpit, from their pastors.
There's really a lot we couldsay on this topic.
We have two pastors here whohave served at various
congregations, and I'm sure weall have listened to a fair
number of sermons as well overthe years.
(01:33):
Jeff, you were the one who kindof brought this topic to our
attention and I think you hadfound had come across some
information that propelled youto think about this topic and to
bring it for us to discusstoday.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Bob had some responsibility for this as well
in terms of some articles thathe sent around by email and
things like that, but I justthought that this would be a
really useful topic for us here,because it's the kind of thing
that affects everyone who goesto church.
It's not just okay, well, whatshould the pastors do?
It's a concern for everyonewho's there to have their faith
(02:10):
fed.
And what prompted it?
The particular thing was therewas a recent survey taken of an
American Lutheran church bodynot Wells or ELS, we're not
going to name it.
We don't want this to come offas we're picking on them or
we're puffing ourselves up inany way.
It's just that this gives us anoccasion to do some soul
searching and say, okay, well,what about this?
(02:31):
About where the membership ofthat church body was, on various
moral issues and societalissues that scripture is really
pretty clear on.
So we just thought it would bereally good to have a chance to
(02:53):
talk about this and see how itcan help us get a fix on what we
are doing right and whatperhaps we should be doing
better.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Now, within the practice of Christian faith,
there's kind of like threestatuses that we have with a
church or a congregation.
One is just membership.
Those of us who have pastoredchurches understand that,
depending on the nature of thechurch and so forth, there's a
certain percentage that holdmembership but hardly attend.
They're holidays and specialoccasion type attendees and then
(03:22):
you've got what you hope to bethe majority that are in a
worship service but don't gobeyond that.
And then there are the thirdlevel and those who are in
worship service and also engagedin Bible class.
So whenever I've looked atcongregations I kind of see it
in those three ways.
And one of the challenges,unique challenges you have as a
preacher and not just as thepastor but as someone who has
(03:45):
guest preached in countlesschurches you kind of have to
always target for your lowestdenominator, because if you
start shooting over the head ofthe people, they're not going to
show up, they don't get it.
Well, the problem is, then youget that segment that's in Bible
class.
It's like, oh, we're hearingthe same thing.
Now I don't think the solutionis as hard as we make it, but it
(04:10):
is a challenge.
It's a challenge for the pastor.
I know we deal with it in ourhomiletics instruction at the
seminary.
When I've taught my adjunctcourses for the seminary, we've
talked about integrating lifeissues into preaching and into
Bible study and so forth.
There's a way to do it, butpart of it is it's a twofold
thing.
I think it has to do with thepastor understanding what he's
(04:32):
going to try to accomplishduring that 60 minutes on a
Sunday morning, and there's alsothe part of the person sitting
in the pew and what they'relooking for.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
So I wanted to just start by reading some of these
results from the survey thatJeff had mentioned earlier.
So some of the results includeand these show that, among
members of the church body, 54%say that abortion should be
legal in all or most cases,while 45% say it should be
(05:03):
illegal in all or most cases.
Another one, too, was only 53%believe there are clear
standards for what is right andwrong, while 46% believe that
right or wrong depends on thesituation.
50% strongly favor or favorsame-sex marriage, while only
47% favor same-sex marriage,while only 47% strongly oppose
(05:30):
or oppose it.
So we know that the Bible isquite clear about what God has
to say about all these things.
Why should we assume that thereare similar problems with
people rejecting God's truth infavor of the culture's lies in
our churches, even if thepercentages aren't as bad?
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Yeah, well, again, it would be so easy for us to
point the finger and say well,you know, we're not like that.
You know because we teach theBible right in our churches.
Yeah, and everyone in ourchurches is a sinner with a
sinful nature, just as in everyother church, and every one of
the members of our churches andI should say pastors as well is
(06:06):
a part of the culture we live in.
This world.
We're not all hermits, anddefinitely shouldn't be hermits,
and so we're going to beaffected by the things that are
around us, whether it's from theTV that we watch or the things
that we follow on social media,the friends that we have, what
our families have to say.
Other people's attitudes aregoing to affect us, and even if
(06:29):
you are a member of a churchthat is teaching 100% the right
things on these kinds of issuesand everything else, the
pastor's got members for maybean hour, maybe two hours a week.
The culture's got them.
The rest of the time, theirfriends have them, their family
has them, social media has themand, generally speaking, the
(06:50):
other side has a lot moreinfluence in that respect, and
so it's going to be work,constant, consistent work, to
keep people on the straight andnarrow as far as things like
this are, and we should not besurprised when we find out that
people who are even regularly inour pews are going to have
attitudes that are more justkind of like well, yeah, I know
(07:12):
that's what they say, that'swhat the pastor has to say,
because he's the pastor, but Idon't think it's a big deal if I
believe something different.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
There's a I think we've talked about it in the
past a thing called confirmationbias, which is this thing that
(07:47):
we do that when you develop abias and if it's formed, like
Jeff, reinforce your bias youtend to tune out to things that
challenge your bias, and so itwas interesting.
I was listening over theweekend.
I was listening to a sermon bya pastor who talked about how
people oftentimes will say oh,finally, I'm hearing the gospel,
finally, I'm learning.
Finally I'm growing.
Now the thing is I'm hearingthe gospel, finally, I'm
learning.
Finally I'm growing.
Now the thing is is I'veencountered people like that and
(08:09):
I've known their pastors thatthey had when they were younger.
They were, I think, far bettergospel proclaimers than I was,
but sometimes you just youweren't there spiritually.
You had a confirmation biasthat led you in a different
direction.
You were looking for answers todating.
You were looking for answers todating.
You were looking for answers onhow to get along with a trying
relationship at work.
(08:29):
So you weren't in tune towhat's my relationship like with
God.
I've heard that message beforeI start tuning it out.
So I think a lot of times whenpeople come into church, they
either are coming in looking fortheir own message and then only
accept their own message.
You know, in other words, theyonly accept that bias.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I mean, I think both of you have touched on why there
is this disconnect might occuras well, other than maybe just
the culture or the confirmationbias, as Bob has said.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Well, one possibility we certainly have to consider
is that people were neveractually taught the truth.
Maybe they had a pastor orpastors who taught the truth
more generally about things butnever made this specific
application.
Well, on this particular issue,like abortion or same-sex
marriage, they never actuallyconnected the dots and said
(09:34):
because the Bible teaches thisand we know that to be true,
this is what, therefore, ourposition on this issue is going
to be.
It's entirely possible theywere never taught and it's also,
then, kind of what Bob wastalking about.
They never learned it, becauseanyone who's ever taught
realizes there's a bigdisconnect between teaching
something and it actually beinglearned and another one, and
(09:57):
this is perhaps one of the morecommon.
I think that people were taughtand learned the truth at one
time, say when they were incatechism instruction or
something like that, and maybethey believed it very well then.
But it's been a while.
They've had more opportunityfor the culture and friends and
such to influence them, and sothey've just kind of left it
(10:20):
behind.
It caused me some friction,some conflict, to hold on to
those biblical ideas, and I'mnot comfortable with that now.
So I'm going to set it asidefor now, and they don't see a
problem with it.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
You know, sometimes people think that the church
should have a manual of do's anddon'ts.
People will call our office andthey'll say what is our
position on?
And then you fill in the blankthey would like a manual.
Just, are we for it or are weagainst it, and so forth.
And what people don't realizeis how inadequate that is.
Because if such a manual werecreated, it's predicated on your
(10:55):
relationship with God.
And so when you decide to lead achaste life, a life that's holy
in your relationship with eachother and in your relationship
with God, if you're going to beliving by rules and regulations,
that's going to be foremost onyour mind all the time.
And you're going to quicklydiscover that we're dramatic
(11:17):
failures in that regard.
You know they're just.
I could never be holy enough, Icould never be perfect enough.
And so you begin to kind ofsurrender on it.
And there's countless storieson.
You know people who have triedto.
You know, this time I'm goingto really buckle down.
This time I'm going to really,you know, hold true and then
fail miserably.
And then after a while you knowyou fail so many times you just
(11:39):
want to give up and so you tuneout.
Now one of the problems that Ithink that I experienced in my
own ministry, without castingdispersions on others, is I've
always wrestled with the thirdpart of the sermon.
You know there's the preachingthe law and preaching the gospel
(11:59):
.
You know we're all sinners.
That's the law, the gospel.
Jesus died for your sins.
Then you get to the third part,the gospel.
You know we're all sinners.
That's the law, the gospel.
Jesus died for your sins.
Then you get to the third part,the application.
And it's funny because I haveheard the law proclaimed most
excellently and the gospel mostexcellently and then just a
dramatic implosion onapplication because it either
(12:23):
was a very poor application, itwas an unreal application.
I think we've all heard thatonce in a while You'll hear a
pastor make an application andit's like what world is he on?
Nobody even watches that showanymore.
So sometimes the applicationsare just poor and I've tried to
(12:43):
study.
I've been doing one of thosetrying to read through the Bible
chronologically multiple timesin a year and one of the things
I'm discovering is like when weget into the Gospels, jesus
almost starts off with theapplication and then starts to
unpack it.
He starts to you, starts totalk about, like he'll start off
(13:05):
with the parable of thePharisee and the tax collector,
and he'll tell you this parableand of course his point is
pretty clear that there arepeople like that, there's always
.
I think the problem is is theapplication requires the most
work, because the law and thegospel is so explicit in
(13:25):
Scripture and it's timeless.
But the application istime-sensitive.
If you're still going to talkabout a party line on talking on
your telephone, you've kind oflost the time-sensitive part of
it.
They haven't done that sincethe 60s and 50s and before that.
(13:47):
You know and you need to.
You know, kind of stay currentand meet people where they're at
.
So I think that that's one ofthe problems I still go back to,
though I've often felt that theworship service is where we
focus on praising God, felt thatthe worship service is where we
focus on praising God.
So there's a lot of emphasis, alot of attention on the songs,
(14:14):
the worship, the liturgy, biblestudy is where you focus on the
nitty-gritty, the detail, and sowe are faced in that with a 20
to 25-minute period of time, or15 to 25-minute period of time
time with a sermon, and in thattime we're going to kind of use
Jeff's analogy earlier.
We're going to try to undo whatthe culture has been trying to
do to you all week, and we'regoing to try to do that in 15 to
(14:35):
25 minutes.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Going back to kind of what you were saying about the
law and gospel getting a lot ofairtime.
So to speak and maybe not somuch with the application.
I mean, could it be becausethat pastors just feel like,
okay, I don't want to talk toomuch about the application, I
want people to just apply ithowever they see fit.
Or is it maybe more of what Bobwas saying, a time-sensitive
(15:01):
type of thing?
Speaker 4 (15:02):
Well, there are a lot of considerations there.
I mean, part of it is, you know, within our circles,
particularly in the Wells,there's a real sensitivity.
We don't want to be pietistic,you know, so we don't want to
come down too much into thetelling people how to live their
lives, you know, focusing somuch on sanctification that we
don't talk enough about thegospel, and that's a legitimate
(15:39):
concern.
But there's such a thing as anovercorrection.
And if you're not talking aboutsanctification, boy, I wanted
to share all that stuff.
You don't always have room,after you've shared the
wonderful things you've learnedfrom the text, to do much of
application of the text, and Isuspect I'm not alone in having
done that.
And maybe it's like, oh, I wantto teach all the details of
(16:00):
really fascinating stuff aboutthis text.
And then, well, yeah, you'veused up most of your time doing
that because it's a fascinatingtext.
Or maybe you know it's more theokay, maybe the text itself
isn't so fascinating, butthere's really good law here, or
there's really good gospel here, and you focus on that and it's
like, oh, yeah, I guess I oughtto add something to it.
(16:25):
And okay, this is a personalbugaboo of mine In our circles
very often with many sermons,it's like there's only one
application available, it'sshare the gospel.
That's a good application, butit's not every sermon, it's not
every text that does that, and Ithink getting away from there's
sometimes an almost an allergyto getting specific about some
of these issues that are goingon in people's lives.
And the flip side of that is,if the main thing people are
(16:46):
hearing is, well, what I reallyneed to do is share the gospel
with my neighbor, there's aneasy way for them to just kind
of say, well, all that otherstuff about how I should be
living my life, the opinions Ishould have and things like that
, that's not so important solong as I'm sharing the gospel.
And of course, it's a both-andsituation, not an either-or, but
(17:07):
it's very natural to slip intothe either-or.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
I've often said, you can't enhance the gospel.
The gospel is perfect, but youcan get in the way of it and
oftentimes if we poorly plan outthe application, we get in the
way of it.
If we don't make it pertinent,if we don't make it real, if we
don't make it explicit, we doget in the way of it.
I remember a board meeting,maybe 15, 20 years ago.
(17:35):
We had a board member who'sbeen a guest on this podcast in
the past, who talked about astudent of his having researched
a Some old 1960s, 1970s collegework that had been done, and on
it there was a page and it saidon the next page is everything
(17:56):
you need to know as a pastor, inaddition to the law and the
gospel.
And then you turn the page andit was blank.
And it was, of course, a timeof that emphasis.
You know that you want to getthe law and you want to get the
gospel out there, but theproblem is is that if you can't
enhance it, you can only get inthe way of it.
And if somebody is havingtrouble understanding, well, how
does this connect with my life?
(18:18):
You've gotten in the way of it.
Why?
Because, if you're like a lotof people, your mind starts
wandering but what about thisand what about that?
And how do I do this and how doI do that?
When I listen to podcasts ofpreachers and they talk about
different issues, my mind goesthere constantly Okay, that's a
good point, but what about this?
And that's a good point, whatabout that?
(18:38):
And I think you learn fromJesus.
You learn from the Apostle Pauland Peter and James and John
and all the other apostles Iguess let's just put them all
out there but you learn from allof them that people are dealing
with real issues and they aresometimes sheep without a
shepherd.
They are wandering and theymight have an excellent shepherd
(18:59):
, but for reasons beyond theshepherd's control, they're just
tuning out and you need to givethem something practical.
You need to give them a rope toconnect to give him something
practical?
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Did he give him a rope to connect to?
I think, you know, there's thiskind of mentality like that
people need to come right tojust like hear the Word of God
and be fed, which is, I mean,completely true.
But when you were mentioning,too, I also think, of all the
people that came to Jesus andthey wanted him to heal their
sick, like they wanted the fixfor their day-to-day problems.
(19:33):
They were so immersed in whatwas going on in their own lives
and I mean he did come to themduring those times and stuff too
.
And so I think that you knowlike when maybe pastors get a
little frustrated, like you know, people always wanting to hear
application or always wantingthat, I mean, I think, people,
(19:54):
that is what they're hungry forin a sense too.
And so what is something maybethat pastors can do if they do
feel, maybe, that they should domore for their people to
connect the truths of Scriptureto the real world, for their
people to connect the truths ofScripture to the real world,
whether it be morals or socialissues.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Well, this is going to sound almost contradictory to
the things we've been talkingabout, but good text study
actually helps with this, Ithink, and what I mean by that
is not necessarily okay.
I'm going to do all this reallydetailed dive into the grammar
of this particular text.
I'm not dissing that at all,but to do the okay, what is the
(20:33):
specific law here?
So it's not just sin is bad,you're a sinner, you need to be
forgiven.
But okay, what is a specificsin that exists in people's
lives that this addresses?
And then how does the gospelspecifically address that as
well?
Because then from there, themore specific you are with those
(20:54):
things, the more naturally youare able to move into those
applications that are aboutwhat's actually going on in
people's lives, just as a, forinstance not putting myself up
as any kind of paragon ofanything here, but I preached
this past Sunday and I had theopportunity in that sermon to
talk about a sin that wasevident in that text and that
(21:19):
related to.
You know, today, somethingsimilar would be anti-Semitism,
hatred of Jews, hatred ofMuslims and things like that.
That then created a very easyapplication to the point of well
, this is not who we're going tobe.
We should be not looking atpeople with hatred, looking at
them to be punished, but lookingokay, this is a lost soul that
(21:40):
needs Jesus and it's like, oh,it's a chance for people to say,
oh, maybe that's something I'vegot in my life, or maybe my
uncle Phil has this kind ofattitude, and I've never really
thought about that as sinful,but I just thought of it as a
quirk.
But yeah, actually that's notChristian and it's those kinds
of things.
The opportunity is there whenyou delve a little deeper and
(22:04):
make those very specificapplications that come straight
out of the text, and I thinkthat's helpful.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
In the early years of CLR we would get not many, but
we would get letters from somepastors who were complaining
that it's social gospel.
You know, if you're going tojust talk about abortion, that's
social gospel and part of itwas not understanding what we
were doing and how we do it.
But there is that idea and yetat the same time, I think a lot
(22:33):
of times as pastors we have toask ourselves why did people
come to church in the firstplace?
Why are you listening to thispodcast?
Are you listening to thispodcast because we're going to
talk about just law or justgospel?
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Because of you, bob.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, right, yeah just law or just gospel?
Because of you, bob, yeah,right, yeah.
Now we're coming to the podcastbecause we're dealing with an
issue and we need a connection.
You know what would God have meto do?
And why are you concerned aboutthat?
Why?
Because you've got to earnGod's favor.
Absolutely not.
That's part of the message thatgood preaching, good sermon
structure will help you in thatyou're trying to remind people
(23:11):
you're not earning anything fromGod.
He's done that for you throughChrist.
But your entire life is atestimony of gratitude, it's a
testimony of the deepestappreciation.
So your willingness tosacrifice for the well-being of
others, your willingness tospeak up for those who cannot
speak for themselves, it's notrooted, not even, in a sense of
(23:31):
obligation.
It's rooted in a sense ofgratitude.
It's rooted in a sense that youknow when I—you've heard me use
the terminologybefore—realizing that you are a
spiritual abortion, realizingthat you have no life outside of
Christ, that you have no lifeoutside of Christ and God
changed that in the gift of hisSon, and it moves you to make
(23:53):
connections in other areas oflife.
I mean, we've been around, youknow.
We're old enough.
We've been around long enoughto see even dramatic changes in
the last three to four decadesand our lay people face it To
some degree.
We live in a little bit of acocoon.
Most of our friends are peoplewho think like us and send their
kids to our schools and soforth.
(24:14):
You step outside of that arena.
There are some genuine, realproblems.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Now we kind of have talked a lot about what pastors
can do and that type of thing,but also want to talk about what
lay people can do as well tohelp make this connection happen
in their churches, for them andalso for fellow members as well
.
But before I ask you thatquestion, I want to answer it.
Good, good.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
Gives us time to think.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
For me this week.
It was really kind of neat Withour church.
We're doing this reading aBible in a year on the app we're
doing chronologically, and so Iwas reading about King Asa
earlier this past week and hereally struck me.
He was a king of Judah and hewas one of the good kings, after
(25:04):
a couple, I think, bad kingsthat were there.
But it did say that towards theend of his life he was not
always going to the Lord anymoreand it gave a couple of
instances where he just kind ofwent on his own or consulted
other people and didn't go tothe Lord and he was still
(25:24):
considered considered a goodking.
But it just reminded me of justthis idea too, that just how
important it is to go to God foreverything and to continue that
mindset through everything wedo through our whole life.
And then I was listening to mysermon this Sunday and it wasn't
(25:48):
at all talking anything aboutthe Old Testament.
It was the text was from theNew Testament with Jesus.
But the topic was how committedare you, was the sermon topic,
and it was talking about Jesus.
And when the people had come upto him, I believe it was the
man who had said I want tofollow you, but let me just bury
(26:11):
my father first or you know, Iwant to follow you, but I want
to say goodbye to my family, andso just that connection.
And then after the sermon, thenI was able to talk to my
children about it at dinner thatnight too, like, oh, I read
this, and then we talked aboutthis in the sermon, and this is
(26:37):
just a very long way to say thatbeing in God's Word and getting
yourself fed in multiple ways,you can start to really see
these beautiful connections andthey hit you for your life too,
and so it's almost like theapplication kind of comes from
when you are hearing the messagein so many different ways.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
You stated positively and wonderfully what negatively
is.
The problem that a lot ofpeople have is that they don't
connect Sunday morning and whatthey might hear from the pulpit
with the rest of their lives.
And there are very few people,I'm sure, who consciously say,
well, I'm not going to connectthose things.
(27:17):
It's an unconscious thing and,as it is with unconscious things
, we need to try to be moreconscious of that.
We need to think about it.
It's like is this what's goingon in my life?
Am I doing that?
I'm sure there are plenty ofcases where you'd ask a member
does your pastor ever talk aboutX issue?
And they say no, no, I've neverheard that.
It's like go back and checkwith Pastor X and his sermons.
(27:39):
Yes, actually he has.
It's just well, I wasn't makingthat connection no-transcript
(28:16):
engaging with their sermons.
And you know, in those caseswhere you're a pastor sitting
there and you're studying onWednesday morning, how am I
going to work application intothis?
You've just been handed one,and so that's another way you
can help your pastor and you'reblessing the rest of your
congregation by doing so.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
You know about maybe it's been seven months ago or
longer we started this serieshere at CLR called Deep Punk.
What we do is we collect everyargument made, like we started
with abortion, we did assistedsuicide, we did gender issues
I'm up to my hips right now inrelationship issues and what we
(28:55):
do is we try to use everyobjection that people have
raised to a Christianperspective.
And it's like my version of mymembers coming up to me and
saying how come we haven'ttalked about this or how come
you haven't mentioned that?
Because when you read it, youlook at it and you go, oh yeah,
I guess I do recall hearing thatand I do see that when I read
(29:17):
newspaper articles or magazinearticles that that idea is
floating out there and it forcesme to be very practical and, as
the writer of those articles,it also forces me to be very
biblical, which means I have toconnect it to the Word of God, I
have to connect it to the law,I have to connect it to the
gospel.
But I'm starting with the issue.
(29:39):
You know I remember inhomiletics at the seminary
preaching class, being told thatyou know that's kind of a
dangerous way to start, you know, because normally we were
taught that you start with thepericope series, which is an
assigned readings, and you pickone out and then you dissect it
and you share it.
But the reality is that youknow it also requires discipline
(29:59):
on the preacher's part to notkeep beating the same dog to
death.
I always remember, when I cameto CLR, my homiletics professor
who's still alive said to meonce just don't make every
sermon about abortion.
And I don't.
That doesn't mean I don'tmention abortion in every sermon
(30:20):
, but it's not about abortion.
In fact, I can't tell you thelast time I preached on abortion
, but chances are pretty good.
I mentioned it the last time Ipreached.
The point is that yourperspective on it and when you
make applications, you're tryingto connect them to real life.
So what I'm saying is laityneeds to keep their pastor in
(30:40):
the loop and if you've got apastor who's not a people person
, you've got to work a littlebit harder at it.
Now, I know that sounds weird,but we've all seen pastors who
are not people persons.
I'm probably not a peopleperson, but when people work and
understand and work with him onit, he tries to weave it in,
not only in what he preaches,but also in what he writes in
the newsletter and so forth.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Well, I think there is probably a lot more we could
say about this topic.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Maybe we'll talk about it again in the future
here, but thank you both foreverything on this topic and we
thank all of our listeners toofor joining us, and if you have
any questions related to thistopic, please reach out to us.
I mean, we'd love to know whatyou also think you know your
pastor should be talking about,and if you have any thoughts on
(31:31):
the subject at all, we'd love tohear them.
You can reach us atlifechallengesus and we look
forward to having you back nexttime.
Thanks a lot, bye.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Life
Challenges podcast fromChristian Life Resources.
Please consider subscribing tothis podcast, giving us a review
wherever you access it andsharing it with friends.
We're sure you have questionson today's topic or other life
issues.
Our goal is to help you throughthese tough topics and we want
you to know we're here to help.
(32:03):
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
suggestions for future episodes,at lifechallengesus or email us
at podcast atchristianliferesourcescom.
In addition to the podcasts, weinclude other valuable
information at lifechallengesus,so be sure to check it out.
(32:25):
For more about our parentorganization, please visit
christLifeResourcescom.
May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge.
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