November 20, 2024 • 31 mins
Join us as we confront the unsettling rise of the "culture of death." In this episode we explore the nuanced debate surrounding physician-free euthanasia as we spotlight the Sarco pod's chilling promise of a "peaceful" end. We cast a critical eye on the removal of protective barriers in the euthanasia process, questioning whether this aligns with the harsh realities of assisted suicide. We dissect the ethical and moral quandaries of this chilling innovation. These pods, with their potential AI-driven capabilities and cutting-edge 3D printing processes, raise critical questions about the normalization of self-termination and its implications on societal values and personal ethics. We trace the path from historical execution methods to the evolving acceptance of such technologies, urging you to reflect on the profound transformation of cultural attitudes towards death. This exploration challenges us to consider the role of media, cultural changes, and the continued quest for control over life's final act, presenting a sobering reminder of technology's impact on our most fundamental beliefs.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bob Fleischmann (00:19):
On today's episode to sexual matters.
We act that way when it comesto abortion.
We act that way when it comesto end of life, and the reality
is it's fundamentally just neverhas proven out to be true.
If my daughter aborts a child,it was my grandchild.
It was the child that wouldhave visited with me when it's
(00:39):
my uncle who decides that he'sgoing to terminate his life.
It was the person I hadinteracted with.
It was somebody that had taughtme lessons, and people kind of
act like they always have beenliving in a bubble that their
life didn't matter.
Maybe you felt your life didn'tmatter the way you want it to
matter, but you can't controlhow the other people interpreted
(01:00):
your life.
Paul Snamiska (01:15):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources yourlife perspective to these issues
and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz (01:32):
Hi and welcome back.
I'm Krista Potratz and I'm heretoday with pastors Bob
Fleischman and Jeff Samuelson.
Today we're going to talk aboutthe new wave of the culture of
death.
We really want to talk aboutsome things that are going on in
Europe and want to start withsome of this that is going on in
Switzerland with these suicidepods.
Jeff Samelson (01:56):
Well, the word pod itself is just an
interesting choice.
I mean, it fits the thingthat's being talked about.
You know, physically We've gotinvasion of the pod, people, you
know, kind of things going on.
It's got that kind of sciencefiction-y thing.
But then we've got also pods interms of you know, like pea
pods and things like that, andit's just associating them with
(02:18):
death is just kind of, in mymind, an interesting
juxtaposition of ideas andimages and such.
But the death pod is a thing.
It's kind of a self-containedlittle unit.
It doesn't look like a coffin,though it's about the same size
(02:39):
as a coffin, and it ismanufactured and designed with
the idea that if you aresomebody who wants to kill
yourself and they're saying, ifyou've got a terminal diagnosis
or something like that, that yougo into this pod and then you
are able to press the buttonsthat will then cause your death,
(03:01):
cause your death.
And the ideal, as the designersays it, was that it'll all be
AI involved in that.
It will ask you some questionsthat will basically assure that
you know what you're doing, thatyou have good reasons for it
and that this is really what youwant to do.
But of course it's just beenused and that part of it hasn't
(03:21):
been put into worked out quiteyet, so it was basically just
somebody getting in and pushingthe button.
This was done in Switzerland.
It was the first use of thispod, which had been designed for
a little while, by a woman whowanted to use it, and it was
apparently in the woods inSwitzerland, just across the
border from Germany, and thepro-death people were all happy
(03:45):
Yay, we proved the concept onthis, and other people were
aghast that death has been somechanized in this way, and just
that this is not a good thing.
Christa Potratz (03:57):
Yeah, I think one thing that I found
interesting with it too was youjust get the blueprints right,
right and then design your ownpod or manufacture it's supposed
to be 3d printed and that's oneof those things that's uh it.
Jeff Samelson (04:13):
it sounds like a bug, but it's really a point of
the thing, because if they wereto manufacture it and ship it,
then they'd probably run intolegal problems in various
countries, because it is aninstrument of death or even if
you think of it as a medicaldevice.
You know you can't.
You know these things have tobe properly licensed and such,
(04:34):
and so by giving you theinstructions to have it 3D
printed, then you are the onlyone who's involved with the
manufacture of the item themanufacturer of the item what
often happens.
Bob Fleischmann (04:48):
You know, when you've grown to accept the idea
that I can terminate my own life, then it's just a matter of
improving the process.
If you've ever studied thedifficulty the Germans had in an
efficient way to terminate thelives of undesirable people and
the amount of research they didand the experimentation and gas
chambers, firing squads, andit's just too gruesome to talk
(05:12):
about here.
But I mean, some of the stuffwas terrible but it was
literally kind of a scientificventure to find out the best and
most efficient way toaccomplish this out the best and
most efficient way toaccomplish this.
Now, if you study a little bitof what's being done with this
pod, it's very similar to what'sbeing done with trying to
accomplish capital punishment.
(05:32):
What's the most efficient way?
Injection and so forth.
Ever since Jack of Orchie andassisted Janet Atkins with the
termination of her life byhaving herself hooked up by IV
to three different solutions andshe can at her will flip the
switch and then first the onesolution would enter her blood
(05:54):
system, then the second solution, and then the third solution
and she's dead when it's alldone.
That's how it started and whenthat first happened in the early
90s.
Everyone was aghast, everyonethought it was terrible and then
of course the idea kind ofcaught on.
Kevorkian did it like over 100times before he finally was
thrown in the jail.
But then there were books.
(06:16):
You know Derek Humphrey wrotethe book Final Exit as a recipe
book and how best to killyourself best to kill yourself.
We had at a CLR convention,probably at least 20 years ago,
wesley Smith who has been at anumber of our conventions, and
(06:36):
Wesley's a brilliant and I hopesomeday we can have him as a
guest on this podcast.
Wesley has worked with theAnti-Euthanasia Task Force and
so forth, but he showed up.
I remember the first time wehad him at a convention.
He was talking about all thedifferent ways that you could
kill yourself and he reachesinto his briefcase and he pulls
out a suicide kit and he startsunfurling it.
(06:59):
And what it was is it wasbasically a plastic bag with a
piece of Velcro around thebottom that you can put over
your head and wrap the Velcroaround your neck and in time you
die.
He said I bought this for 30bucks or something in the back
of a magazine, you know.
So there are always peoplecoming up with these crazy ways
to do it.
(07:19):
Well, the way this pod works isit kind of works the same way it
basically stops feeding youoxygen by flooding the canister
with nitrogen, and you end itjust becomes a more
sophisticated way to do it, butI still remember.
I remember talking to Wesleyafterwards and saying I said so
help me if you had had a deathwish, because it really was
(07:42):
quite alarming, because I hadnever seen one of these.
The point is, though, is thatpeople presume that they have
the right to terminate theirlife, and they presume a right
to some assistance, which iswhat we've talked about in other
episodes, about medicalassistance and dying and so
forth.
The pod is supposed to bereally kind of a remake of the
(08:03):
Kevorkian experience, and thatis.
Somebody else creates thedevice, you climb in and you
push a button.
It asks you one last time, areyou sure?
And you push a button.
Christa Potratz (08:18):
Yeah, I mean I saw a picture of it and it
almost looks futuristic.
It's Star Trek, yeah, or evento like it reminded me of the
scene from the matrix too, wherehe, like you know, starts
unplugging himself and he likesits up and all this goop and
stuff in this pod.
It has kind of this and I don'tknow if maybe that's part of
(08:38):
like the allure and stuff, but,um, just kind of this futuristic
look, this maybe going to thenext phase and stuff.
And yeah, I mean, you know,maybe there is something just in
your mind like a little bitmore picturesque about the pod
versus a coffin or even what youwere describing, bob, a bag
(08:59):
over your head with some elastic.
I mean there's just I don'tknow if that's maybe part of
what this picture is thatthey're creating.
Jeff Samelson (09:10):
I'm sure the visual aspect of it is part of
it.
Yeah, you want to think this isprogress, this is what the
future looks like, and I'mreaching out and grabbing hold
of that.
One of the other interestingthings the guy who designed this
and promotes it uh, philipnitschke keep wanting to say
ralph, but that's, that'ssomebody completely different
(09:31):
green bay packers fans, but umray, oh ray ray, sorry yeah ray.
you know he said that one of thereasons he wanted to design
this was to to eliminate theburden on physicians.
So we see the progression ofthings that they've been saying
people, for this is well, weshould be able to get physicians
(09:52):
to help, because they're themost qualified to provide this
assistance to people who'vedecided that it's time for them
to die.
But now he's kind ofrecognizing well, it's a burden
on physicians to have to overseea process like this, to be
involved with this.
So this way we're eliminatingthem from this.
(10:13):
So it's a tacit admission thatyou shouldn't have the
physicians involved in the firstplace, but what it really is is
it's eliminating anyone whomight stand in between the
individual who wants to die anddeath.
And you know, again, it's justthis progression of things.
Bob Fleischmann (10:35):
It should be pointed out, too, that this
first candidate for this pod wasfrom the United States, and
it's unfortunate.
I've got some people I know inSwitzerland and I often told
them I was going to do ashout-out to Switzerland and
that they listened to thepodcast, but it's unfortunate
that this is the conversation wehave about Switzerland.
(10:57):
But people behind this wouldlike it to make it kind of the
go-to tourist spot for bringingyour life to an end, and it's
rooted in all the problems thatwe've talked about and all the
other life issues about thisidea that my times are in your
hands.
Passages like that from theBible don't really matter,
because this is for people whosay my times are in my hands and
(11:21):
I decide.
I found it interesting too whenyou guys were describing the
look of the pod To me.
The pod.
I'm a big Star Trek fan and thepod really looks like the
burial casket of Spock whenSpock dies, you know, and they
jettison him out of the ship andsend him to the planet.
That's what it looks like.
(11:42):
And whenever I read the storiesabout the pod I always think of
the sharp contrasts, because Iwas early in my ministry at CLR
when Kevorkian began his workand the big story about
Kevorkian was Janet Atkinstraveled to Michigan to climb in
the back of his rusty old vanto lie down on a mattress, to be
(12:03):
hooked up to this IV.
And you look at the pie and yougo.
My goodness, we have come along way.
Things have really improved.
The other thing I want to pickup on that Jeff talked about we
find this on other life issuestoo and that is, you know,
removing doctors from the burdenof doing this.
We see this kind of talk inabortion.
You know we're trying torelieve the mother from the
(12:25):
burden of wondering.
You know what's happening, whatthis really is.
So you know they don't wantthem to see pictures, that we
don't want them to seeultrasounds.
We do an awful lot of hoopjumping to avoid facing the
reality of what we're reallydoing.
And this pod is the next step.
And you know there's been a lotof stories have come out now
(12:46):
since this is done that this maynot have been as clean of a
suicide as they're wondering.
There's suspicions that theremay have been strangulation
marks on her neck, there'ssuspicions that there was sign
of agitation within the pod, andso forth.
I think that's all interestinginformation, but it's a little
(13:07):
bit of a distraction.
She shouldn't have been inthere in the first place and
Switzerland, quite honestly,shouldn't even make this kind of
stuff permissible within theircountry.
Christa Potratz (13:19):
I was going to just kind of mention some of the
stuff you were talking abouttoo, Bob, like with that,
because it just seems like I'veheard stories like this I think
we've even talked about it onthe podcast before too where
these deaths maybe don't goquite as how people would think
they would right, that theredoes seem to be some agitation
(13:40):
at the end of life, or thatthere is just you know, oh, you
know, we thought they were goneand then there was another
movement or something, and is itreally as peaceful as people
think it is to die?
I mean, you're dying, I don'tknow.
Like you know, they sell itlike that.
(14:03):
This is going to be such agreat way to go.
I feel like they're not reallyselling what's actually
happening.
Jeff Samelson (14:12):
It's not truth in advertising.
Christa Potratz (14:14):
Yeah, kind of.
Jeff Samelson (14:16):
Yeah, and let's bring in the spiritual aspect of
what are these people going tobe waking up to on the other
side?
It's not going to beannihilation, it's going to be
something much worse.
Most likely in the 80s I thinkit was with, maybe it was Derek
(14:42):
Humphries just about how therewas a discussion you know it was
on TV, a panel or somethinglike that, and the other guy was
advocating for some right todie legislation and that guy,
you know, off camera, freelyadmitted that it was never going
to get passed.
But he says but now, when weget it on the ballot, people are
talking about it no-transcript.
(15:21):
This is part of why this is notjust unique to Switzerland, but
it's a much larger thing thatthis Philip Nitschke actually
lives in the Netherlands.
He's Australian, but he livesin the Netherlands, and so they
were kind of wondering whetherthere should know there should
be some action taken against himthere, whatever.
But there was.
There was a quote here from aTheo Boer who spent nine years
(15:46):
assessing thousands of assistedsuicide cases on behalf of the
Dutch government, noting, notdisapproving, them.
But he says that even thoughwhat he meaning Nitschke does is
weird, it contributes to themuch needed discussion in the
Netherlands whether or not weneed this heavy involvement of
doctors, basically saying weshould eliminate the doctors and
(16:08):
just go straight forward toletting people kill themselves.
Who this Bohr is?
He is a professor of healthcareethics at the Groningen
Theological University, whichsays something a word of warning
to us as Christians as well,about we need to watch our
doctrine and such in ourinstitutions as well that this
(16:31):
is not just something out therein the secular, unchristian
world, but this makes its wayinto the church as well.
We need to be on our guardagainst that.
Christa Potratz (16:43):
Also found it just really interesting to just
kind of the connection thenthere with trying to eliminate
doctors.
And then in abortion.
You know, I'm just kind ofthinking like, yeah, that's like
what we're doing in chemicalabortion too, is this idea to
eliminate doctors?
Because I mean, I think maybepeople don't really want to
(17:04):
recognize it, but there is kindof something icky about both of
those things, and if you are adoctor and if you wouldn't have
to have that, I don't know.
I mean it's just veryinteresting that there's that
connection there with both thetermination of life at the
beginning and also at the end.
Bob Fleischmann (17:25):
You know we call this episode dealing with
the culture of death, andculture has to do with what
you're immersed in, and I thinkoftentimes we're immersed in a
culture that sees this as adignified, rightful way.
And you know, I learned longago I learned when Kevorkian
(17:49):
helped Janet Atkins terminateher life that what sounds like a
nutcase at that time becomesreality in 10 years.
At that time becomes reality in10 years.
And those of you who are oldenough to remember, a show that
(18:11):
was very popular in the 80s and90s was the Phil Donahue show.
If you've ever watched PhilDonahue, he used to have every
kind of weird thing on his show.
It was always very outside ofthe norms of society, always
very shocking.
I remember once he had somebodywho had had a sex change in the
70s and I always remember theconversation.
This person was, I believe,like a reporter with the Chicago
(18:33):
Sun-Times and was a woman.
And are you dating?
Oh, yes, I date.
So what does your datingpartner think of this?
Well, unless he's watching theshow, he doesn't know.
And I just think you know justhow weird this is.
Well, jack Kevorkian appearedon the Phil Donahue show and
that's actually how Janet Atkinslearned of him and of course it
(18:55):
was crazy.
It was just crazy.
Nobody.
Kevorkian even looked crazywhen he was demonstrating
talking about it.
He was a pathologist.
He's kind of jumping around andhe would say kind of weird
things.
And look, today we've got stateswhere it is legal to have a
doctor assist you in terminatingyour life.
(19:15):
We've got countries where it islegal and advocated to do it.
And now we're actually to thepoint in Switzerland where the
issue isn't the legality of it.
The issue is now how can webest do it?
We have to recognize theprogressive nature of the
thinking on these things and sowe talk, like for example today
(19:36):
in other areas of life andfamily issues, when we talk
about genetic engineering andcell modification and those
kinds of things.
When it sounds weird and scarytoday, don't think that people
are just all of a sudden goingto say, well, that's just too
weird, we're not going to dothat.
There's always somebody muchweirder than you who's going to
take it up, and we have thatgoing on now.
(19:59):
Nitschke was not present atthis woman's death, but some
fellow named Florian who waspresent who's now under some
legal scrutiny as far asparticipating in this.
I think the question has to comeup what do Christians do?
How do you take on thisonslaught of not only the
(20:21):
legalization of assistance insuicide, but now the refinement,
the perfection of terminatinglife?
You do it by, you know, firstof all looking at what permeates
your life.
What culture are you in?
What are the influences thatconvince you?
And I'm always reminded of howyou don't realize the effect
(20:43):
your culture has on you untilyou get somebody reminding you
of how your father orgrandfather would have reacted
to the same thing.
How many times have we heardsomebody say oh, if my father
heard about this going on, he'dbe rolling over in his grave.
Oh, if my father heard aboutthis going on, he'd be rolling
over in his grave.
That's called culture changeand you get immersed in it.
And the reason I bring this upis we've been doing a lot of
(21:08):
television watching in ourfamily because of Diane's
condition, and it is a nightmaretrying to find programming that
doesn't support a culture ofdeath.
I don't care what actor you'relooking at.
There always seems to be agrowing permissibility of life
(21:29):
losing its value.
It's okay to have it terminated, and so forth.
It's hard to findlife-affirming television and
yet never forget how influencedyou are by the visual media and
how that affects you and ifsomebody shows you a very sad
story.
You know, years ago, a fewyears ago, brittany Maynard took
(21:52):
steps to terminate her own lifewho has the same cancer that my
wife has and she took thosesteps.
And so what did the media do?
They showed these incrediblysad, wonderful, charming, you
know, wedding caliber videos ofwhat her life was like and what
it's going to become after that.
And pretty soon you're sittingin front of there going how sad
(22:16):
and her choice was I don't wantto lose dignity, I want to go
out on the top of my game, andso forth.
And people think like this.
Don't think they're just tryingto escape horrible pain.
They want to leave with.
I still want to remember, Istill want to enjoy, and the
problem you have with this kindof mentality is that it never
(22:37):
stays, even there.
Of course, there are storiesabout this in Belgium and in the
Netherlands of people who losta love and they just couldn't
bear to be without them, and sothey went into this big
depression and, instead ofhaving the depression treated,
they had their life terminated.
You've got that when peoplehave lost oh, I lost my hearing
(22:59):
or I lost my sight.
And, of course, who's absentfrom all those conversations?
Probably the one who createdyou.
And that's how Christians haveto recalibrate the game,
starting with yourself.
Look at the influences you haveand then try to be a positive
influence in your environment,and that means being willing to
(23:20):
care for others.
Christa Potratz (23:23):
Some people might think too well, that's
happening overseas, that's notreally over here.
I'm sure there's got to be someother examples of issues
related to life where theystarted overseas but then they
kind of ended up hereno-transcript.
Jeff Samelson (24:17):
If you got something from right on the
continent, you'd be like I can'tbelieve they allow that stuff
not too long.
You know, maybe, maybe it wasas late as the 90s, probably the
80s, maybe even the late 70s.
That was normal here and nobodywas saying boo about it.
And you know that happened withall the LGBTQ type stuff.
It's happened with, you know,certainly with sexual morality,
(24:40):
I think a lot of people would,you know, point particularly to
the post-war era in Europe, asyou know, starting a lot of that
because they kind of lost theirconnection with God in a big
way after the two world wars.
But that stuff comes here inthe real.
Why is it that it hasn'thappened faster here?
Why isn't it coming sooner?
(25:01):
I believe the main reason forthat is the greater presence of
Christians in the United Statesand greater acceptance of
Christian values, even frompeople who aren't themselves
believers, and that's good, butit's not good enough.
We should be influencing therest of the world towards
(25:22):
godliness and good morals andthings like that, and instead we
let it go the other way.
We do not do enough asChristians, starting in our own
homes, but then in ourneighborhoods, our communities,
to the extent, then that we canbe involved in politics as well,
to just set that standard andsay there is a better way and
(25:45):
it's the right way, it's thehappiest way, and to point
people not just toward thepracticality of it but point
them towards, as Bob was saying,towards God, who is not just
our creator but our savior, andhe's somebody we should listen
to and somebody you shouldlisten to.
And there is hope if you'rehopeless.
There is joy if you're joylessand all these things we can give
(26:10):
your life meaning when you cometo Christ.
But there's just been too muchsitting on our hands as
Christians and letting thesethings happen.
Christa Potratz (26:20):
How do we respond then to somebody who
just says, well, kind of to eachtheir own, like if people want
to die this way, just let themdie this way.
And I think you know, like withthe abortion argument, when
people are saying like, oh, awoman has bodily autonomy, we go
.
Well, wait a minute.
No, you know there's anotherlife involved, like she can't
(26:42):
end that life.
Jeff Samelson (26:43):
But you know in this what is maybe the big deal,
so to speak, if somebody wantsto do this, Well, if it comes
from a Christian, I think I'd betempted to start with oh so
what you're saying is, I'm notmy brother's keeper?
They might get the referencethere and realize there's
something wrong with theirthinking.
But another way you wouldchallenge it is just saying are
(27:07):
you saying this is only true forpeople who have a terminal
illness or something, or are yousaying it's true for anybody?
So if your 17-year-old son,who's in high school, decides
that life isn't worth livinganymore, you think he should be
okay with that and undoubtedlyyou're going to say, well, no,
no, that's different.
Well, how is it different?
(27:27):
Challenge people on theirthinking on these things.
But to the heart of that isagain, just turn it around and
say explain to me why you thinkthat this will not have a
negative effect on our society,on our community, on our nation.
There's an assumption there andit's just kind of absorbed.
It's not really thought aboutmost of the time.
(27:48):
When people are saying that andI think if most people think
about it, they realize well,yeah, when someone dies, that
hurts.
It hurts people and those arepart of the society we live in
and that's just not a good thing.
And you start thinking aboutwhat goes downstream from that
as well.
But when you're talking toChristians in particular, just
(28:10):
say God cares about this.
God says no, suicide isself-murder.
Murder is one of those thingsthe commandments tell us not to
do and if God cares about itthat much, we should too.
We should not in any way beencouraging it or even just
permitting it.
Bob Fleischmann (28:28):
We tend to think simplistically about
things like it's their body,their choice, can they do what
they want, it doesn't affect me,and so forth.
Is there really such a thing astrue autonomy?
Unless you're living byyourself on an island?
And again, of course, I wouldappeal to you to remember you're
still God's creation and yourallegiance belongs to him.
(28:48):
There is this simplistic notionthat if they want to do that,
they can do that.
I mean, we act that way when itcomes to sexual matters, we act
that way when it comes toabortion, we act that way when
it comes to end of life, and thereality is it's fundamentally
just never has proven out to betrue.
If my daughter aborts a child,it's fundamentally just never
has proven out to be true If mydaughter aborts a child.
(29:10):
It was my grandchild, it was thechild that would have visited
with me when it's my uncle whodecides that he's going to
terminate his life.
It was the person I hadinteracted with.
It was somebody that had taughtme lessons, and people kind of
act like they always have beenliving in a bubble that their
(29:30):
life didn't matter.
Maybe you felt your life didn'tmatter the way you want it to
matter, but you can't controlhow the other people interpreted
your life and sometimes you hadprofound influence and you
weren't aware of it.
And it's kind of like allowingyour neighbor to do whatever he
wants.
It's his house, his property.
(29:50):
He can do what he wants Really.
Really, is that how you live inyour neighborhood.
Your neighbor can do whateverthey want.
You've got some lines you draw.
Why do you draw those lines?
Why Because nobody lives in abubble.
Everybody lives in a communityand that is why one of the
fundamentals of the Christianfaith has been our
responsibility to care for eachother and not just ourselves, to
(30:12):
think of others ahead ofourselves.
Why Because you don't live in abubble?
Christa Potratz (30:18):
Thank you both for this conversation and if you
are listening and you have anyquestions on any of these topics
, if you are listening and youhave any questions on any of
these topics, just let us know.
You can reach us atlifechallengesus.
We will have links to some ofthese articles that we have come
across and have discussed,related to the pods and
(30:39):
everything too.
But yes, please reach out to uswith any questions and we look
forward to having you back nexttime.
Paul Snamiska (30:46):
Bye to us with any questions and we look you to
(31:14):
know we're here to help.
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
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(31:36):
May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge.
On today's episode to sexual matters.
We act that way when it comesto abortion.
We act that way when it comesto end of life, and the reality
is it's fundamentally just neverhas proven out to be true.
If my daughter aborts a child,it was my grandchild.
It was the child that wouldhave visited with me when it's
(00:39):
my uncle who decides that he'sgoing to terminate his life.
It was the person I hadinteracted with.
It was somebody that had taughtme lessons, and people kind of
act like they always have beenliving in a bubble that their
life didn't matter.
Maybe you felt your life didn'tmatter the way you want it to
matter, but you can't controlhow the other people interpreted
(01:00):
your life.
Paul Snamiska (01:15):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources yourlife perspective to these issues
and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz (01:32):
Hi and welcome back.
I'm Krista Potratz and I'm heretoday with pastors Bob
Fleischman and Jeff Samuelson.
Today we're going to talk aboutthe new wave of the culture of
death.
We really want to talk aboutsome things that are going on in
Europe and want to start withsome of this that is going on in
Switzerland with these suicidepods.
Jeff Samelson (01:56):
Well, the word pod itself is just an
interesting choice.
I mean, it fits the thingthat's being talked about.
You know, physically We've gotinvasion of the pod, people, you
know, kind of things going on.
It's got that kind of sciencefiction-y thing.
But then we've got also pods interms of you know, like pea
pods and things like that, andit's just associating them with
(02:18):
death is just kind of, in mymind, an interesting
juxtaposition of ideas andimages and such.
But the death pod is a thing.
It's kind of a self-containedlittle unit.
It doesn't look like a coffin,though it's about the same size
(02:39):
as a coffin, and it ismanufactured and designed with
the idea that if you aresomebody who wants to kill
yourself and they're saying, ifyou've got a terminal diagnosis
or something like that, that yougo into this pod and then you
are able to press the buttonsthat will then cause your death,
(03:01):
cause your death.
And the ideal, as the designersays it, was that it'll all be
AI involved in that.
It will ask you some questionsthat will basically assure that
you know what you're doing, thatyou have good reasons for it
and that this is really what youwant to do.
But of course it's just beenused and that part of it hasn't
(03:21):
been put into worked out quiteyet, so it was basically just
somebody getting in and pushingthe button.
This was done in Switzerland.
It was the first use of thispod, which had been designed for
a little while, by a woman whowanted to use it, and it was
apparently in the woods inSwitzerland, just across the
border from Germany, and thepro-death people were all happy
(03:45):
Yay, we proved the concept onthis, and other people were
aghast that death has been somechanized in this way, and just
that this is not a good thing.
Christa Potratz (03:57):
Yeah, I think one thing that I found
interesting with it too was youjust get the blueprints right,
right and then design your ownpod or manufacture it's supposed
to be 3d printed and that's oneof those things that's uh it.
Jeff Samelson (04:13):
it sounds like a bug, but it's really a point of
the thing, because if they wereto manufacture it and ship it,
then they'd probably run intolegal problems in various
countries, because it is aninstrument of death or even if
you think of it as a medicaldevice.
You know you can't.
You know these things have tobe properly licensed and such,
(04:34):
and so by giving you theinstructions to have it 3D
printed, then you are the onlyone who's involved with the
manufacture of the item themanufacturer of the item what
often happens.
Bob Fleischmann (04:48):
You know, when you've grown to accept the idea
that I can terminate my own life, then it's just a matter of
improving the process.
If you've ever studied thedifficulty the Germans had in an
efficient way to terminate thelives of undesirable people and
the amount of research they didand the experimentation and gas
chambers, firing squads, andit's just too gruesome to talk
(05:12):
about here.
But I mean, some of the stuffwas terrible but it was
literally kind of a scientificventure to find out the best and
most efficient way toaccomplish this out the best and
most efficient way toaccomplish this.
Now, if you study a little bitof what's being done with this
pod, it's very similar to what'sbeing done with trying to
accomplish capital punishment.
(05:32):
What's the most efficient way?
Injection and so forth.
Ever since Jack of Orchie andassisted Janet Atkins with the
termination of her life byhaving herself hooked up by IV
to three different solutions andshe can at her will flip the
switch and then first the onesolution would enter her blood
(05:54):
system, then the second solution, and then the third solution
and she's dead when it's alldone.
That's how it started and whenthat first happened in the early
90s.
Everyone was aghast, everyonethought it was terrible and then
of course the idea kind ofcaught on.
Kevorkian did it like over 100times before he finally was
thrown in the jail.
But then there were books.
(06:16):
You know Derek Humphrey wrotethe book Final Exit as a recipe
book and how best to killyourself best to kill yourself.
We had at a CLR convention,probably at least 20 years ago,
wesley Smith who has been at anumber of our conventions, and
(06:36):
Wesley's a brilliant and I hopesomeday we can have him as a
guest on this podcast.
Wesley has worked with theAnti-Euthanasia Task Force and
so forth, but he showed up.
I remember the first time wehad him at a convention.
He was talking about all thedifferent ways that you could
kill yourself and he reachesinto his briefcase and he pulls
out a suicide kit and he startsunfurling it.
(06:59):
And what it was is it wasbasically a plastic bag with a
piece of Velcro around thebottom that you can put over
your head and wrap the Velcroaround your neck and in time you
die.
He said I bought this for 30bucks or something in the back
of a magazine, you know.
So there are always peoplecoming up with these crazy ways
to do it.
(07:19):
Well, the way this pod works isit kind of works the same way it
basically stops feeding youoxygen by flooding the canister
with nitrogen, and you end itjust becomes a more
sophisticated way to do it, butI still remember.
I remember talking to Wesleyafterwards and saying I said so
help me if you had had a deathwish, because it really was
(07:42):
quite alarming, because I hadnever seen one of these.
The point is, though, is thatpeople presume that they have
the right to terminate theirlife, and they presume a right
to some assistance, which iswhat we've talked about in other
episodes, about medicalassistance and dying and so
forth.
The pod is supposed to bereally kind of a remake of the
(08:03):
Kevorkian experience, and thatis.
Somebody else creates thedevice, you climb in and you
push a button.
It asks you one last time, areyou sure?
And you push a button.
Christa Potratz (08:18):
Yeah, I mean I saw a picture of it and it
almost looks futuristic.
It's Star Trek, yeah, or evento like it reminded me of the
scene from the matrix too, wherehe, like you know, starts
unplugging himself and he likesits up and all this goop and
stuff in this pod.
It has kind of this and I don'tknow if maybe that's part of
(08:38):
like the allure and stuff, but,um, just kind of this futuristic
look, this maybe going to thenext phase and stuff.
And yeah, I mean, you know,maybe there is something just in
your mind like a little bitmore picturesque about the pod
versus a coffin or even what youwere describing, bob, a bag
(08:59):
over your head with some elastic.
I mean there's just I don'tknow if that's maybe part of
what this picture is thatthey're creating.
Jeff Samelson (09:10):
I'm sure the visual aspect of it is part of
it.
Yeah, you want to think this isprogress, this is what the
future looks like, and I'mreaching out and grabbing hold
of that.
One of the other interestingthings the guy who designed this
and promotes it uh, philipnitschke keep wanting to say
ralph, but that's, that'ssomebody completely different
(09:31):
green bay packers fans, but umray, oh ray ray, sorry yeah ray.
you know he said that one of thereasons he wanted to design
this was to to eliminate theburden on physicians.
So we see the progression ofthings that they've been saying
people, for this is well, weshould be able to get physicians
(09:52):
to help, because they're themost qualified to provide this
assistance to people who'vedecided that it's time for them
to die.
But now he's kind ofrecognizing well, it's a burden
on physicians to have to overseea process like this, to be
involved with this.
So this way we're eliminatingthem from this.
(10:13):
So it's a tacit admission thatyou shouldn't have the
physicians involved in the firstplace, but what it really is is
it's eliminating anyone whomight stand in between the
individual who wants to die anddeath.
And you know, again, it's justthis progression of things.
Bob Fleischmann (10:35):
It should be pointed out, too, that this
first candidate for this pod wasfrom the United States, and
it's unfortunate.
I've got some people I know inSwitzerland and I often told
them I was going to do ashout-out to Switzerland and
that they listened to thepodcast, but it's unfortunate
that this is the conversation wehave about Switzerland.
(10:57):
But people behind this wouldlike it to make it kind of the
go-to tourist spot for bringingyour life to an end, and it's
rooted in all the problems thatwe've talked about and all the
other life issues about thisidea that my times are in your
hands.
Passages like that from theBible don't really matter,
because this is for people whosay my times are in my hands and
(11:21):
I decide.
I found it interesting too whenyou guys were describing the
look of the pod To me.
The pod.
I'm a big Star Trek fan and thepod really looks like the
burial casket of Spock whenSpock dies, you know, and they
jettison him out of the ship andsend him to the planet.
That's what it looks like.
(11:42):
And whenever I read the storiesabout the pod I always think of
the sharp contrasts, because Iwas early in my ministry at CLR
when Kevorkian began his workand the big story about
Kevorkian was Janet Atkinstraveled to Michigan to climb in
the back of his rusty old vanto lie down on a mattress, to be
(12:03):
hooked up to this IV.
And you look at the pie and yougo.
My goodness, we have come along way.
Things have really improved.
The other thing I want to pickup on that Jeff talked about we
find this on other life issuestoo and that is, you know,
removing doctors from the burdenof doing this.
We see this kind of talk inabortion.
You know we're trying torelieve the mother from the
(12:25):
burden of wondering.
You know what's happening, whatthis really is.
So you know they don't wantthem to see pictures, that we
don't want them to seeultrasounds.
We do an awful lot of hoopjumping to avoid facing the
reality of what we're reallydoing.
And this pod is the next step.
And you know there's been a lotof stories have come out now
(12:46):
since this is done that this maynot have been as clean of a
suicide as they're wondering.
There's suspicions that theremay have been strangulation
marks on her neck, there'ssuspicions that there was sign
of agitation within the pod, andso forth.
I think that's all interestinginformation, but it's a little
(13:07):
bit of a distraction.
She shouldn't have been inthere in the first place and
Switzerland, quite honestly,shouldn't even make this kind of
stuff permissible within theircountry.
Christa Potratz (13:19):
I was going to just kind of mention some of the
stuff you were talking abouttoo, Bob, like with that,
because it just seems like I'veheard stories like this I think
we've even talked about it onthe podcast before too where
these deaths maybe don't goquite as how people would think
they would right, that theredoes seem to be some agitation
(13:40):
at the end of life, or thatthere is just you know, oh, you
know, we thought they were goneand then there was another
movement or something, and is itreally as peaceful as people
think it is to die?
I mean, you're dying, I don'tknow.
Like you know, they sell itlike that.
(14:03):
This is going to be such agreat way to go.
I feel like they're not reallyselling what's actually
happening.
Jeff Samelson (14:12):
It's not truth in advertising.
Christa Potratz (14:14):
Yeah, kind of.
Jeff Samelson (14:16):
Yeah, and let's bring in the spiritual aspect of
what are these people going tobe waking up to on the other
side?
It's not going to beannihilation, it's going to be
something much worse.
Most likely in the 80s I thinkit was with, maybe it was Derek
(14:42):
Humphries just about how therewas a discussion you know it was
on TV, a panel or somethinglike that, and the other guy was
advocating for some right todie legislation and that guy,
you know, off camera, freelyadmitted that it was never going
to get passed.
But he says but now, when weget it on the ballot, people are
talking about it no-transcript.
(15:21):
This is part of why this is notjust unique to Switzerland, but
it's a much larger thing thatthis Philip Nitschke actually
lives in the Netherlands.
He's Australian, but he livesin the Netherlands, and so they
were kind of wondering whetherthere should know there should
be some action taken against himthere, whatever.
But there was.
There was a quote here from aTheo Boer who spent nine years
(15:46):
assessing thousands of assistedsuicide cases on behalf of the
Dutch government, noting, notdisapproving, them.
But he says that even thoughwhat he meaning Nitschke does is
weird, it contributes to themuch needed discussion in the
Netherlands whether or not weneed this heavy involvement of
doctors, basically saying weshould eliminate the doctors and
(16:08):
just go straight forward toletting people kill themselves.
Who this Bohr is?
He is a professor of healthcareethics at the Groningen
Theological University, whichsays something a word of warning
to us as Christians as well,about we need to watch our
doctrine and such in ourinstitutions as well that this
(16:31):
is not just something out therein the secular, unchristian
world, but this makes its wayinto the church as well.
We need to be on our guardagainst that.
Christa Potratz (16:43):
Also found it just really interesting to just
kind of the connection thenthere with trying to eliminate
doctors.
And then in abortion.
You know, I'm just kind ofthinking like, yeah, that's like
what we're doing in chemicalabortion too, is this idea to
eliminate doctors?
Because I mean, I think maybepeople don't really want to
(17:04):
recognize it, but there is kindof something icky about both of
those things, and if you are adoctor and if you wouldn't have
to have that, I don't know.
I mean it's just veryinteresting that there's that
connection there with both thetermination of life at the
beginning and also at the end.
Bob Fleischmann (17:25):
You know we call this episode dealing with
the culture of death, andculture has to do with what
you're immersed in, and I thinkoftentimes we're immersed in a
culture that sees this as adignified, rightful way.
And you know, I learned longago I learned when Kevorkian
(17:49):
helped Janet Atkins terminateher life that what sounds like a
nutcase at that time becomesreality in 10 years.
At that time becomes reality in10 years.
And those of you who are oldenough to remember, a show that
(18:11):
was very popular in the 80s and90s was the Phil Donahue show.
If you've ever watched PhilDonahue, he used to have every
kind of weird thing on his show.
It was always very outside ofthe norms of society, always
very shocking.
I remember once he had somebodywho had had a sex change in the
70s and I always remember theconversation.
This person was, I believe,like a reporter with the Chicago
(18:33):
Sun-Times and was a woman.
And are you dating?
Oh, yes, I date.
So what does your datingpartner think of this?
Well, unless he's watching theshow, he doesn't know.
And I just think you know justhow weird this is.
Well, jack Kevorkian appearedon the Phil Donahue show and
that's actually how Janet Atkinslearned of him and of course it
(18:55):
was crazy.
It was just crazy.
Nobody.
Kevorkian even looked crazywhen he was demonstrating
talking about it.
He was a pathologist.
He's kind of jumping around andhe would say kind of weird
things.
And look, today we've got stateswhere it is legal to have a
doctor assist you in terminatingyour life.
(19:15):
We've got countries where it islegal and advocated to do it.
And now we're actually to thepoint in Switzerland where the
issue isn't the legality of it.
The issue is now how can webest do it?
We have to recognize theprogressive nature of the
thinking on these things and sowe talk, like for example today
(19:36):
in other areas of life andfamily issues, when we talk
about genetic engineering andcell modification and those
kinds of things.
When it sounds weird and scarytoday, don't think that people
are just all of a sudden goingto say, well, that's just too
weird, we're not going to dothat.
There's always somebody muchweirder than you who's going to
take it up, and we have thatgoing on now.
(19:59):
Nitschke was not present atthis woman's death, but some
fellow named Florian who waspresent who's now under some
legal scrutiny as far asparticipating in this.
I think the question has to comeup what do Christians do?
How do you take on thisonslaught of not only the
(20:21):
legalization of assistance insuicide, but now the refinement,
the perfection of terminatinglife?
You do it by, you know, firstof all looking at what permeates
your life.
What culture are you in?
What are the influences thatconvince you?
And I'm always reminded of howyou don't realize the effect
(20:43):
your culture has on you untilyou get somebody reminding you
of how your father orgrandfather would have reacted
to the same thing.
How many times have we heardsomebody say oh, if my father
heard about this going on, he'dbe rolling over in his grave.
Oh, if my father heard aboutthis going on, he'd be rolling
over in his grave.
That's called culture changeand you get immersed in it.
And the reason I bring this upis we've been doing a lot of
(21:08):
television watching in ourfamily because of Diane's
condition, and it is a nightmaretrying to find programming that
doesn't support a culture ofdeath.
I don't care what actor you'relooking at.
There always seems to be agrowing permissibility of life
(21:29):
losing its value.
It's okay to have it terminated, and so forth.
It's hard to findlife-affirming television and
yet never forget how influencedyou are by the visual media and
how that affects you and ifsomebody shows you a very sad
story.
You know, years ago, a fewyears ago, brittany Maynard took
(21:52):
steps to terminate her own lifewho has the same cancer that my
wife has and she took thosesteps.
And so what did the media do?
They showed these incrediblysad, wonderful, charming, you
know, wedding caliber videos ofwhat her life was like and what
it's going to become after that.
And pretty soon you're sittingin front of there going how sad
(22:16):
and her choice was I don't wantto lose dignity, I want to go
out on the top of my game, andso forth.
And people think like this.
Don't think they're just tryingto escape horrible pain.
They want to leave with.
I still want to remember, Istill want to enjoy, and the
problem you have with this kindof mentality is that it never
(22:37):
stays, even there.
Of course, there are storiesabout this in Belgium and in the
Netherlands of people who losta love and they just couldn't
bear to be without them, and sothey went into this big
depression and, instead ofhaving the depression treated,
they had their life terminated.
You've got that when peoplehave lost oh, I lost my hearing
(22:59):
or I lost my sight.
And, of course, who's absentfrom all those conversations?
Probably the one who createdyou.
And that's how Christians haveto recalibrate the game,
starting with yourself.
Look at the influences you haveand then try to be a positive
influence in your environment,and that means being willing to
(23:20):
care for others.
Christa Potratz (23:23):
Some people might think too well, that's
happening overseas, that's notreally over here.
I'm sure there's got to be someother examples of issues
related to life where theystarted overseas but then they
kind of ended up hereno-transcript.
Jeff Samelson (24:17):
If you got something from right on the
continent, you'd be like I can'tbelieve they allow that stuff
not too long.
You know, maybe, maybe it wasas late as the 90s, probably the
80s, maybe even the late 70s.
That was normal here and nobodywas saying boo about it.
And you know that happened withall the LGBTQ type stuff.
It's happened with, you know,certainly with sexual morality,
(24:40):
I think a lot of people would,you know, point particularly to
the post-war era in Europe, asyou know, starting a lot of that
because they kind of lost theirconnection with God in a big
way after the two world wars.
But that stuff comes here inthe real.
Why is it that it hasn'thappened faster here?
Why isn't it coming sooner?
(25:01):
I believe the main reason forthat is the greater presence of
Christians in the United Statesand greater acceptance of
Christian values, even frompeople who aren't themselves
believers, and that's good, butit's not good enough.
We should be influencing therest of the world towards
(25:22):
godliness and good morals andthings like that, and instead we
let it go the other way.
We do not do enough asChristians, starting in our own
homes, but then in ourneighborhoods, our communities,
to the extent, then that we canbe involved in politics as well,
to just set that standard andsay there is a better way and
(25:45):
it's the right way, it's thehappiest way, and to point
people not just toward thepracticality of it but point
them towards, as Bob was saying,towards God, who is not just
our creator but our savior, andhe's somebody we should listen
to and somebody you shouldlisten to.
And there is hope if you'rehopeless.
There is joy if you're joylessand all these things we can give
(26:10):
your life meaning when you cometo Christ.
But there's just been too muchsitting on our hands as
Christians and letting thesethings happen.
Christa Potratz (26:20):
How do we respond then to somebody who
just says, well, kind of to eachtheir own, like if people want
to die this way, just let themdie this way.
And I think you know, like withthe abortion argument, when
people are saying like, oh, awoman has bodily autonomy, we go
.
Well, wait a minute.
No, you know there's anotherlife involved, like she can't
(26:42):
end that life.
Jeff Samelson (26:43):
But you know in this what is maybe the big deal,
so to speak, if somebody wantsto do this, Well, if it comes
from a Christian, I think I'd betempted to start with oh so
what you're saying is, I'm notmy brother's keeper?
They might get the referencethere and realize there's
something wrong with theirthinking.
But another way you wouldchallenge it is just saying are
(27:07):
you saying this is only true forpeople who have a terminal
illness or something, or are yousaying it's true for anybody?
So if your 17-year-old son,who's in high school, decides
that life isn't worth livinganymore, you think he should be
okay with that and undoubtedlyyou're going to say, well, no,
no, that's different.
Well, how is it different?
(27:27):
Challenge people on theirthinking on these things.
But to the heart of that isagain, just turn it around and
say explain to me why you thinkthat this will not have a
negative effect on our society,on our community, on our nation.
There's an assumption there andit's just kind of absorbed.
It's not really thought aboutmost of the time.
(27:48):
When people are saying that andI think if most people think
about it, they realize well,yeah, when someone dies, that
hurts.
It hurts people and those arepart of the society we live in
and that's just not a good thing.
And you start thinking aboutwhat goes downstream from that
as well.
But when you're talking toChristians in particular, just
(28:10):
say God cares about this.
God says no, suicide isself-murder.
Murder is one of those thingsthe commandments tell us not to
do and if God cares about itthat much, we should too.
We should not in any way beencouraging it or even just
permitting it.
Bob Fleischmann (28:28):
We tend to think simplistically about
things like it's their body,their choice, can they do what
they want, it doesn't affect me,and so forth.
Is there really such a thing astrue autonomy?
Unless you're living byyourself on an island?
And again, of course, I wouldappeal to you to remember you're
still God's creation and yourallegiance belongs to him.
(28:48):
There is this simplistic notionthat if they want to do that,
they can do that.
I mean, we act that way when itcomes to sexual matters, we act
that way when it comes toabortion, we act that way when
it comes to end of life, and thereality is it's fundamentally
just never has proven out to betrue.
If my daughter aborts a child,it's fundamentally just never
has proven out to be true If mydaughter aborts a child.
(29:10):
It was my grandchild, it was thechild that would have visited
with me when it's my uncle whodecides that he's going to
terminate his life.
It was the person I hadinteracted with.
It was somebody that had taughtme lessons, and people kind of
act like they always have beenliving in a bubble that their
(29:30):
life didn't matter.
Maybe you felt your life didn'tmatter the way you want it to
matter, but you can't controlhow the other people interpreted
your life and sometimes you hadprofound influence and you
weren't aware of it.
And it's kind of like allowingyour neighbor to do whatever he
wants.
It's his house, his property.
(29:50):
He can do what he wants Really.
Really, is that how you live inyour neighborhood.
Your neighbor can do whateverthey want.
You've got some lines you draw.
Why do you draw those lines?
Why Because nobody lives in abubble.
Everybody lives in a communityand that is why one of the
fundamentals of the Christianfaith has been our
responsibility to care for eachother and not just ourselves, to
(30:12):
think of others ahead ofourselves.
Why Because you don't live in abubble?
Christa Potratz (30:18):
Thank you both for this conversation and if you
are listening and you have anyquestions on any of these topics
, if you are listening and youhave any questions on any of
these topics, just let us know.
You can reach us atlifechallengesus.
We will have links to some ofthese articles that we have come
across and have discussed,related to the pods and
(30:39):
everything too.
But yes, please reach out to uswith any questions and we look
forward to having you back nexttime.
Paul Snamiska (30:46):
Bye to us with any questions and we look you to
(31:14):
know we're here to help.
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
suggestions for future episodes,at lifechallengesus or email us
at podcast atchristianliferesourcescom.
In addition to the podcasts, weinclude other valuable
information at LifeChallengesus,so be sure to check it out For
more about our parentorganization.
Please visitChristianLifeResourcescom.
(31:36):
May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Boysober
Have you ever wondered what life might be like if you stopped worrying about being wanted, and focused on understanding what you actually want? That was the question Hope Woodard asked herself after a string of situationships inspired her to take a break from sex and dating. She went "boysober," a personal concept that sparked a global movement among women looking to prioritize themselves over men. Now, Hope is looking to expand the ways we explore our relationship to relationships. Taking a bold, unfiltered look into modern love, romance, and self-discovery, Boysober will dive into messy stories about dating, sex, love, friendship, and breaking generational patterns—all with humor, vulnerability, and a fresh perspective.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com