March 25, 2025 • 33 mins
When Michelle Markgraf worked as the executive director of the Compass Center, a rape and domestic abuse center in South Dakota, she encountered survivors from all walks of life—including many Christians who felt deeply alone in their suffering. In this powerful conversation, she dismantles the myth that abuse doesn't happen in faith communities and provides crucial insights for recognizing, understanding, and responding to abuse.
Markgraf defines abuse through two essential components: it's a pattern of controlling behaviors, not isolated incidents. While physical abuse might be the most visible, she explains why emotional and spiritual abuse often cause deeper, longer-lasting damage. For Christians, spiritual abuse—where Scripture is twisted to maintain control—represents a particularly devastating form of manipulation that can damage not only relationships but also one's relationship with God.
The statistics are sobering: approximately 40% of women and 25% of men experience physically abusive relationships during their lifetime, regardless of their faith background. For those supporting loved ones in abusive situations, Markgraf offers counter-intuitive but crucial advice: first, believe them unconditionally; second, resist the urge to immediately tell them to leave. Understanding that victims leave and return to abusers an average of seven times before leaving permanently helps supporters maintain consistent, judgment-free presence.
Churches can make a profound difference by openly acknowledging abuse, training advocates within congregations, and making resources visible. For survivors, Markgraf offers a powerful connection to faith: Jesus himself experienced profound abuse without cause and deeply understands their suffering.
Whether you're currently in an abusive relationship, support someone who might be, or simply want to better understand this important issue, this episode provides compassionate insight and practical wisdom for addressing abuse in Christian communities.
Find strength and courage in your faith at this year’s FEARLESS FAITH Conference. Inspired by Joshua 1:9, “Be strong and courageous,” join us Saturday, September 13, at Kettle Moraine Lutheran High School in Jackson, Wisconsin, for presentations on navigating life’s storms, understanding God’s peace, and engaging in crucial conversations about euthanasia, anorexia, abortion, prenatal genetic testing, and more. Hear powerful journeys of faith through loss and hope. Don’t miss this empowering event! $50 in person or $40 virtual. Register now: https://christianliferesources.com/resources/events/2025-conference/
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Episode Transcript
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Michelle Markgraf (00:01):
Definitely the physical signs are the
easiest.
Other things that could besigns that there's abuse
happening could be lowself-esteem Somebody's always
putting themselves down Could bedifficulty in controlling their
own emotions.
Maybe they get angry super easyor they have outbursts or
(00:23):
demanding behaviors.
That could be a sign of abuseand something we see quite often
, because abuse is controllingsomebody else is we see somebody
that has poor boundaries.
Paul Snamiska (00:39):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources.
People today face manyopportunities and struggles when
it comes to issues of life anddeath, marriage and family,
health and science.
We're here to bring a freshbiblical perspective to these
issues and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz (01:06):
Hello and welcome back.
I'm Krista Potratz, and I'mhere today with Pastor Jeff
Samuelson, and today we have aspecial guest with us, michelle
Markgraf, and we are going totalk about a subject that we
have never talked about reallybefore on the podcast at least
not in a whole podcast episodebefore and that is about abuse.
(01:28):
But first, I would just love itif you would introduce yourself
, michelle, to us and tell us alittle bit about your background
.
Michelle Markgraf (01:37):
Sure, thanks for having me and for talking
about a really important andtough-to-talk-about subject.
I'm Michelle Markgraf.
I'm a graduate of Dr MartinLuther College in New Ulm,
minnesota, and after graduatingI taught in Wells Wisconsin
Synod classrooms for seven years, took some time out to be with
(02:00):
our sons as they grew up andthen, when I got back into work
again after the kids were older,I worked more with
administrative and nonprofitsand that eventually led me to be
the executive director of aplace called the Compass Center
in Sioux Falls, south Dakota,and the Compass Center is a rape
(02:20):
and domestic abuse center wherewe worked with all kinds of
victims, from ages three on up,of both sexual assault and
domestic abuse, men and women,children.
Just a lot of different peoplecame through our doors and I got
to work there for over fouryears until my husband took a
call to New Ulm, minnesota, andhad to leave there, kind of
(02:42):
kicking and screaming because Ireally enjoyed the work.
It sounds weird screamingbecause I really enjoyed the
work.
It sounds weird, but I reallyloved the work that we were
doing helping survivors of abuse, came to New Ulm and worked for
Kingdom Workers for a year ortwo years and helped them to put
together a program to helpchurches work with domestic
abuse, because oftentimes what Ifound is the faith community
(03:05):
doesn't understand how to bestwork with the survivor of abuse,
and so I worked with them toput together a program to help
provide training to churches sonot just the leadership but
people in the church could helpwith survivors and to provide
the advocacy that survivors need.
Now I am at actually MartinLuther College.
(03:26):
I went from graduation to nowI'm alumni director here and
enjoying the work that I do here.
I also get to help withstudents and provide some
education to the students hereabout especially dating violence
, because that's what'shappening for the age group that
we're at here.
Christa Potratz (03:43):
Well, you know, I'm sure that, with your
background and with everythingthat you have been a part of too
, you can probably help us alljust to be able to define abuse.
I'm sure there's many differenttypes of it, but how would we
go about defining abuse andtalking about it?
Michelle Markgraf (04:08):
go about defining abuse and talking about
it.
When I explain abuse to people,it really breaks down into two
things.
The first is it's a pattern ofbehaviors.
So it's not something thathappens one time, like I had a
really bad day and hit myhusband or wife.
It's a pattern of behaviorsthat happens over and over and
over throughout a relationshipand it is also an attempt to
control what somebody elsethinks or does.
(04:30):
So those two are really theelements of abuse.
Is there's got to be thatcontinuing behavior and you're
trying to control people?
The way that it happens can bein a lot of different ways.
I think when most people thinkof abuse, they think of the
physical abuse.
They think of the bruises orthe black eyes or broken bones,
(04:51):
things like that, and thatcertainly is one element of
abuse.
But abuse happens across anentire spectrum of things.
The two things that concern memore than the physical is the
emotional abuse and spiritualabuse.
That often happens where theabuser is trying to control a
(05:12):
person by making them fearwhat's going to happen.
We often hear people saying I'mwalking on eggshells around
that person, and that's anelement of the mental abuse, of
you're never quite sure what'sgoing to make them upset.
You know, am I doing it rightor am I doing it wrong?
And it's always me, me.
(05:32):
What am I doing wrong?
And that's difficult, and it'seven more than the physical,
because the physical your eye isgoing to heal, your bones are
going to heal.
That mental, emotional abuse isa lot harder to heal from and
we see ramifications years andyears and years.
After an abuse has occurred.
(05:55):
We'll still see that somepeople suffer the trauma of what
happened.
For me, why it was important towork with churches is the
spiritual abuse aspect thatoften happens in relationship.
And again, it's trying tocontrol somebody.
So the abuser will take Biblepassages and twist them to make
(06:16):
the person listen and obey.
One of the things that I see isthe man will say well, the wife
(06:43):
want to obey my husband, I wantto submit to him, but at the
same time he shouldn't betelling me and I've heard this
that I shouldn't use toiletpaper to blow my nose, I can
only use Kleenex.
That's going too far in beingsubmissive to a husband.
And then some things that peoplenever really think about as far
as abuse is economic abuse andtechnology.
(07:06):
And economic abuse iscontrolling the money so that
the person who you'recontrolling can't leave because
they have no place to gootherwise and they have no
access to money.
I worked with a woman once whowe found out that she had the
house was in her husband's name,that all the vehicles were in
(07:29):
her husband's name.
The detective had arrested himand found some money in the
vehicle and he said here you canhave this money.
And she was afraid to take itbecause she wasn't allowed to
have money.
And if you have absolutely noaccess to money, how can you
leave that abusive relationship?
So that's economic abuse.
And technology.
We see that a lot with Facebook, instagram, all the online
(07:52):
technology, where we've seenabusers who will take control of
somebody's Facebook.
Like I might go to my husband'sFacebook profile and say my
family is awful, I hate myfamily and things like that, and
then his family sees it andthinks, well, this guy is our
son, why would he say thosehurtful things?
(08:13):
And kind of pushes the familyaway then from him so I get more
control over him.
And technology can also be usedwith just phoning somebody,
texting somebody.
We worked with somebody at theCompass Center who had over 150
texts in one day from her abuser.
And how do you work and not getfired when you have to be
(08:34):
constantly answering these?
Because if you don't answer thetext you get in trouble and
when she gets home it could besome serious things happening.
So definitely abuse is thatpattern of behavior trying to
control, and there are manydifferent tactics an abuser uses
to get that control.
Christa Potratz (08:53):
Michelle, you talked a little bit about the
spiritual abuse.
But how else might we asChristians see abuse, maybe in
our circles and churches anddifferent things?
I think sometimes there is thetendency to think, okay, that
happens in sinful or secularhomes or homes that don't have
(09:15):
Jesus.
But how would we maybe reframea little bit with how that can
happen in the Christiancommunity?
Michelle Markgraf (09:24):
Very, very normal to think it doesn't
happen here and whether it's achurch or just your friend group
, it's super easy to think, oh,that's not happening here.
The statistics are that forwomen, 40% of women will have a
physically abusive relationshipat some point in their lifetime.
We never think of it happeningto men, but for men it's one out
(09:45):
of four.
It's going to happen.
And God doesn't have thisspecial dome around our churches
that says well, I know,sometimes some people in church
steal, but you're never going tobe abusive.
The devil works everywhere andeverybody has the same
temptations.
Unfortunately, it does happenquite frequently in churches and
(10:08):
I've not seen any statisticsdifferently that 40% of women in
churches, 25% of men, in theirlifetime will have some kind of
abusive relationship, and wejust need to be aware of that,
that it is happening and itcertainly can happen in a
Christian environment.
We all sin.
This is another sin andsomething just to be aware of
(10:31):
and not to think well, they'renot saying anything, so
everything's okay, because it'svery difficult for somebody to
come forward and say, yeah, I'min a rough relationship.
It's really difficult,especially in today's Facebook,
instagram everything is greatera.
So even though people aren'tsaying it doesn't mean it's not
(10:53):
happening, and it could verywell be happening to somebody
that you know.
I mean statistically, if youknow more than four men, it's
probably happened or will happento somebody that you know.
Jeff Samelson (11:04):
You mentioned earlier the wife.
You should obey me.
Misuse of Scripture.
What are some otherrationalizations or excuses or
defenses of abuse thatChristians will use?
Michelle Markgraf (11:22):
You can just about take anything in Scripture
and twist it for an abuser tomake it sound good and to back
them up, and it could beanything from well.
You're the man, so you shouldbe taking care of the whole
family, and why aren't you doingthat?
And why aren't you workingthree jobs to help make sure
that we all have what we needand you're not taking care of
(11:44):
the family like you should?
It can really be just aboutanything within scriptures, and
both men and women can usescriptures to try and get the
other one to do what it is thatthey want them to do.
Christa Potratz (11:59):
Yeah, that's really sad.
I mean especially too, I hearthat and I'm like, oh, that's
not what scripture is supposedto be used for, and so that's
just a really sad part of it,yeah.
Jeff Samelson (12:11):
And why churches need that help and assistance in
understanding what's going onin the background reinforces for
me the importance of pastors,teachers, churches just teaching
what it really means to love,because loving as Christ loved
(12:32):
us is pretty much the oppositeof abusive behavior and we
really need to spell that outfor people, to make it clear to
the abused that what's happeningis not love, and make it clear
to the abusers, if they'rewilling to listen, that their
excuses don't hold.
Christa Potratz (12:50):
There's maybe a tendency to think that when
somebody is being abused, thatthat's the really hard part,
which I'm sure it really is.
But is there something thathappens after a person leaves an
abusive relationship or anabusive situation that could
(13:14):
maybe even be more traumatizing?
Or, I guess, maybe a better wayto ask, that is, what are the
long-term effects of beingabused?
Michelle Markgraf (13:25):
The effects of abuse can last a lifetime and
oftentimes they do, especiallywhen there's quite a bit of
emotional, mental abuse thathappens, and some of that is
because that person who's beenabused has been conditioned to
first of all believe it's theirfault and they carry that guilt,
(13:48):
that shame with them as theycontinue, that shame with them
as they continue, and then italso causes a type of trauma
that's similar to PTSD thatsoldiers have in war, and
anything in the future cantrigger that trauma.
It could be the smell ofsomebody's cologne, because it's
the same cologne that theirhusband wore, or it could be a
(14:10):
song, because that was the songthat would trigger the wife to
yell at her husband.
Whatever it might be, but itcan have effects way down the
road.
When we work with survivors ofabuse.
I worked with a bunch oftherapists at the Compass Center
and we would see somebody getto a really good, healthy place
(14:34):
healthy place and then they'd beback in a year because
something happened thattriggered them and brought them
back into the abuse and broughtthem back down.
So it's definitely notsomething you're overdone.
Everything's perfect.
It can take a whole lifetime oftherapy.
I really highly suggest therapyfor people, and we have got
Christian Family Solutions,which is a great outlet for a
(14:54):
lot of Wisconsin Lutheran Synodpeople as well as others who
might be listening to thepodcast.
But that's a really goodChristian counseling group that
understands abuse and has workedwith quite a few survivors of
abuse and I really like thethings that they're doing with
them.
A lot of congregations outthere can get a few free
(15:15):
sessions.
It depends on your congregationif they've paid for that or not
, and I'd say, just talk withyour pastor and see if you have
some free sessions.
I always tell people try therapy.
It might work.
It might not work, but at leastyou've tried it.
I think the younger generationsare more apt to do therapy.
The older generations, such asmyself, it's more like oh man, I
(15:40):
can handle this all on my own.
And that's not true.
If you have strep throat, you'dprobably go to a doctor.
If you have this happening,this mental health issues with
your past abuse, a doctor isimportant too, and it's just a
different type of doctor.
Christa Potratz (15:56):
You mentioned before, too, that women are more
likely to be abused than men.
Are there any other types ofgroups that maybe are more
likely to be abused?
I just think from you know astandpoint of maybe being able
to identify or, as other as theChristian community, are there
groups that maybe are morelikely to be abused that we
(16:21):
should be looking out for?
Michelle Markgraf (16:23):
Abuse can happen to anyone, any
socioeconomic level, anyreligion, any ethnicity.
It happens across the board.
Because that sinful desire tocontrol can happen to anyone and
anybody can fall into that typeof relationship.
There are some things thatmight make you more susceptible
(16:46):
to abuse and that would be ifyou grew up in a family where
abuse was prevalent.
That becomes normal to you andso getting into a relationship
like that feels natural andnormal.
And a lot of times if somebodyhas had an abusive relationship
in the past, they're much morelikely to get into abusive
relationships in the future.
(17:07):
And it's going to soundcounterintuitive, but if I've
been in an abusive relationshipin the past, I will probably
seek out that type ofrelationship in the future
because it's comfortable to meand I know the parameters, I
know how to deal with that.
(17:28):
I've heard a lot of survivors ofabuse say I'm in a healthy
relationship and it feels scaryto me because it's just not
normal.
So having that normalcy ofabuse you know if it's happened
in the past, it's more likely tocontinue in future
relationships just because it'snormal.
And if you grew up in ahousehold like that, that's the
normal, that's how you interactwith your significant other and
(17:49):
will more likely happen in thefuture.
And it will more likely happenin the future, but anybody is
open to it.
I often talk with teens who sayI'm never going to do that and
I say don't say that because youjust never know.
Abuse never starts.
Abuse happens very slowly overan extended period of time and
(18:12):
you kind of fall into it anddon't realize it's happening
until it's too late.
So it can definitely happen toanybody.
Definitely never say it'llnever happen to me, because then
if it does, you'll be even morenot willing to go and get some
help from somebody.
Christa Potratz (18:28):
If we find out that someone that we know, a
friend, a church member, ismaybe telling us about their
relationship or about somethinggoing on and we think, oh, that
sounds a little bit like abuse,what should we do?
What would you suggest?
I mean, is it wise to just comeout and say, oh, I think that
(18:53):
sounds like an abusiverelationship, you should get out
of that.
Or you know what is yourrecommendation if the red flags
go up?
For us.
Michelle Markgraf (19:05):
The first part's easy, and the first and
actually most powerful thingthat you can do for a survivor
is to believe what's happening.
And that can be really difficultbecause the person they might
say is the abuser could besomebody that you respect.
(19:26):
It could be somebody who'svolunteering a lot at church,
and the biggest thing to do isjust to believe that survivor in
that moment.
If it's my sister-in-law thatcomes to me and says your
brother did X Y Z to be the bestadvocate I can, I need to
(19:47):
believe her first that threemonths now from now, I might
learn something different.
That makes me not believe somuch.
But in that moment when youdiscover it, belief is the most
powerful thing that can be done.
And then the second thing andthis is the hard part of working
with a survivor of abuse, andyou kind of said what's the
(20:10):
natural thing is well, you gottaleave.
You know that that's ournatural thing is we want to help
, we.
We see exactly how this is notgood.
But the second thing to do isto listen to what they want and
then be with them in that.
So most likely they are goingto want to get back together
(20:34):
with the person, especially, youknow, if they've separated for
a little bit, that they're goingto want to get back with that
person.
That's completely normal and myjob as their friend, as an
advocate, is to help them dothat.
But then also ask them okay,you're going to do this, but
what are you going to do to staysafe Next time this happens?
(20:56):
What's your plan?
And to help them have that plan.
And the reason I say that isfirst of all, that victim might
understand if they don't go back, they could be the next murder
victim and so they know best howto stay safe.
And if they want to go backinto that relationship, let's
(21:17):
help them do that.
But let's help them stay safe.
Maybe it's all right we've gotthis word.
If you say tinkerbell to me,then I know I need to get over
to your house becausesomething's happening.
Just figure out different waysto keep them safe.
Help them safety plan indifferent areas of their life.
The average number of timessomebody's going to leave their
abuser and come back into therelationship is seven before
(21:41):
they leave for good, and that isso tough as a person on the
outside to see.
You know it's not good for thatperson.
You see this happening to them.
But we need to be there allseven times or ten times or
however many.
It is because when they arefinally ready to leave for good,
they need your support, becausewithout support they have.
(22:05):
I mean, what if there'seconomic abuse and you don't
realize it?
You're telling them to leave,but they can't.
So having your support isreally important for when they
do finally want to leave.
Is it easy?
Not at all, it is verydifficult.
But definitely believe, and Iwould also say, just be on the
(22:26):
lookout for it too.
We like to think it's nothappening to people that we know
, especially if we didn't growup in that type of environment.
It doesn't happen to my friendsand family and it does.
And I have a story of a friendof mine who, before I, really
got into the domestic abusesector of work.
(22:49):
They were friends and she'd saya few things where I just
thought, well, that's, that'sreally dumb.
Like he wanted silverware onlyone way in the dishwasher and if
it wasn't that way he'd get mad.
She'd say, like I'm like, well,just put it the right way, you
know what's what's to worryabout.
But then one day they came overto our house for supper and she
kept excusing herself to thebathroom and she has a doctor,
(23:12):
and I thought, well, maybe she'son call and she's just doing
her call in the bathroom.
And I asked once when she left Isaid what's wrong?
Why does she keep going in thebathroom?
And her husband said, oh, she'sbeen throwing up today, but I
really wanted to come to yourhouse, so we're here for supper
and I'm like all right,no-transcript.
(23:55):
And said you know what?
That's not okay, that hebrought you over throwing up.
And it's not okay because ofwhat it did to you, not because
of, you know, making me sick.
And so just being aware of thatand seeing that and not being
afraid to say something, justgentle, like is everything okay?
(24:15):
I'm not going to say is heabusing you, because she's not
going to say yes, but just sayyou know stuff like that happen
very often and just find outmore and again, believe as she
says it and, at the end of theday, do what she wants, but help
her, do it safely.
Jeff Samelson (24:34):
Are there particular signs or anything?
Obviously, if some guy isbeating up his wife or kids and
there are bruises, we can say,oh, that looks like it could be
abuse.
But if it's not something likethat, I mean, what are the
things we should be looking for?
Michelle Markgraf (25:01):
Definitely the physical signs are the
easiest.
Other things that could besigns that there's abuse
happening could be lowself-esteem Somebody's always
putting themselves down Could bedifficulty in controlling their
own emotions.
Maybe they get angry super easyor they have outbursts or
demanding behaviors.
That could be a sign of abuseand something we see quite often
because abuse is controllingsomebody else is we see somebody
(25:26):
that has poor boundaries andthey let other people just come
in and do as they wish, whetherit's a friend or the abuser just
because that abuser has pushedthe boundaries so much to get
control that now the personwho's the victim doesn't have
good boundaries.
And that shows up in all oftheir relationships, not just
(25:47):
that with the house.
And sometimes it's justlistening to your sixth sense of
saying so.
For me, from now on, if I saythat person's a jerk, I'm going
to go talk to their spouse ortheir boyfriend, girlfriend and
say you know how are thingsgoing.
So some of it's just listeningto that too.
But yeah, it's not easy becausepeople hide it, because we
(26:10):
don't want to tell people that'shappening in our lives.
It's a very personal and veryintimate thing and it's hard to
invite other people into yourlife when it's happening.
Christa Potratz (26:21):
You mentioned earlier about some of the work
you had done when you were atKingdom, workers with
congregations.
What is it that congregationscan do to help people that have
survived abuse or who are beingabused too, that have survived
abuse or who are being abused.
Michelle Markgraf (26:38):
Too Big thing for Toshes is to talk about it
and talk about it.
Often there are a lot ofexamples in scripture of abuse
that takes place and we kind ofgloss over the abuse and talk
about other things.
But you know, like when Lotstuck his daughters out and let
(27:02):
the men of Sodom and Gomorrahhave their way with them, that's
abuse and we don't talk aboutit really as abuse in our church
.
But when stories like that comeup, say that's abuse.
Finding those things inScripture and pointing out abuse
and talking about how that'snot okay is really important.
Sometimes we only leave it forlike, the domestic abuse month
and might be one time in theyear, but being able to talk
(27:25):
about it all the time isimportant.
Through Kingdom Workers thereis training that is offered for
people in the church that wantto be advocates and can be like
the safe person for somebody totalk to.
I'm an advocate at our church inSt Paul's New Ulm and we've got
tear-off strips in all thebathroom stalls for both men and
(27:49):
women with my phone number andemail information that they can
send to me.
Our pastors are really good too,because I know how to be an
advocate of sending people to meif they want to talk to
somebody else Victims when Ifirst talk with them I'm like
I'm not going to tell pastorthat you're talking to me.
(28:11):
If you want him to know, you canlet him know, but I'm not going
to say anything and build thatrelationship of whatever you
tell me is very confidential andnobody's going to hear about it
and just for people to knowthat that's okay and some people
might never talk to me, butthey see those posters in the
(28:31):
bathroom, they see that that'savailable in the church and
that's a signal to them thatthis church understands this is
happening.
They're not going to push itunder the rug.
Hopefully it makes some of themmore willing to talk to their
pastors about what's going onbecause, again, that spiritual
abuse is what concerns me themost and I don't want their
faith to be shaken by the abuseor have that abuser tell them
(28:55):
that they're not going to heavenbecause of X, y, Z and they
really need that reassurancefrom the pastor.
Christa Potratz (29:02):
If someone is listening to this podcast and
they are a survivor of abuse orare still suffering from abuse,
what would you want him or herto know?
Michelle Markgraf (29:15):
The biggest thing is that you are not alone,
because being in an abusiverelationship it feels like I'm
all alone because people aroundyou aren't talking about their
abuse either.
So understand this is happeningto other Christians.
It's most likely happening toother people in your church.
(29:36):
You don't know in your church.
You don't know about it becausethey don't know about what's
happening to you either.
So just understand that thisisn't something only you are
suffering.
It is happening to you as well.
And I like to point to Jesus.
He suffered the ultimate abusewith absolutely no reason in the
(29:57):
world for it to happen.
He was perfect and he gets it.
Even if you can't tell anybodyelse being able to talk to Jesus
in prayer, he understands whathappened and what you're going
through, and he went throughabuse as well while he was on
earth and is very understandingand better to listen to your
(30:18):
abuse story than somebody whosuffered hell for no reason.
So definitely point everybodyback to the word if abuse is
happening in your life and toknow that Jesus does understand
what's happening and he is withyou.
We oftentimes don't know whyit's happening and that's a huge
question.
That survivors ask is why, andwe might not know.
(30:41):
This side of heaven.
I've worked with a lot of abusesurvivors who now help others
and they say that was a toughpart of my life and now I can
help other people and they kindof see that full circle and
they're very thankful that theycan help others.
Maybe that's why, maybe it isjust because that is the way the
world is and we won't knowuntil heaven why this is
(31:05):
happening.
But those are the big things.
You're not alone.
Jesus is with you, he's walkingwith you, even if it doesn't
feel like it all the time.
Sometimes it can feel very,very lonely.
Very much encourage reading thePsalms, reading the Gospels,
reading what Jesus did for you.
And then there is help outthere.
(31:26):
There's a national hotline thatpeople can just Google the
National Domestic ViolenceHelpline and that helpline can
get you in touch with your localshelters.
Not that you have to go andlive in a shelter, but they can
definitely help with advocateswho offer free help to folks.
Whether they want to do aprotection order, if they want
(31:48):
to just plan for their safety,if they want somebody to go with
them to talk to a detective,the shelters are there.
They do a lot more than justshelter people.
They're there to listen to andsometimes they even offer free
therapy with people who aretrained to work with abuse
survivors.
So there's help out there and Iencourage people to keep moving
(32:08):
forward and know that you're inmy prayers, if not by name, at
least by what's happening to you.
Least by what's happening toyou.
Christa Potratz (32:15):
Well, thank you , michelle.
Thank you so much for joiningus, and we thank all of our
listeners too, and if you haveany questions on this topic or
any others, you can reach us atlifechallengesus.
We look forward to having youback next time.
Bye.
Paul Snamiska (32:32):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of
the Life Challenges podcast fromChristian Life Resources.
Please consider subscribing tothis podcast, giving us a review
wherever you access it andsharing it with friends.
We're sure you have questionson today's topic or other life
issues.
Our goal is to help you throughthese tough topics and we want
you to know we're here to help.
(32:54):
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
suggestions for future episodes,at lifechallengesus or email us
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In addition to the podcasts, weinclude other valuable
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(33:15):
For more about our parentorganization, please visit
ChristianLifeResourcescom.
May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge.
Definitely the physical signs are the
easiest.
Other things that could besigns that there's abuse
happening could be lowself-esteem Somebody's always
putting themselves down Could bedifficulty in controlling their
own emotions.
Maybe they get angry super easyor they have outbursts or
(00:23):
demanding behaviors.
That could be a sign of abuseand something we see quite often
, because abuse is controllingsomebody else is we see somebody
that has poor boundaries.
Paul Snamiska (00:39):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources.
People today face manyopportunities and struggles when
it comes to issues of life anddeath, marriage and family,
health and science.
We're here to bring a freshbiblical perspective to these
issues and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz (01:06):
Hello and welcome back.
I'm Krista Potratz, and I'mhere today with Pastor Jeff
Samuelson, and today we have aspecial guest with us, michelle
Markgraf, and we are going totalk about a subject that we
have never talked about reallybefore on the podcast at least
not in a whole podcast episodebefore and that is about abuse.
(01:28):
But first, I would just love itif you would introduce yourself
, michelle, to us and tell us alittle bit about your background
.
Michelle Markgraf (01:37):
Sure, thanks for having me and for talking
about a really important andtough-to-talk-about subject.
I'm Michelle Markgraf.
I'm a graduate of Dr MartinLuther College in New Ulm,
minnesota, and after graduatingI taught in Wells Wisconsin
Synod classrooms for seven years, took some time out to be with
(02:00):
our sons as they grew up andthen, when I got back into work
again after the kids were older,I worked more with
administrative and nonprofitsand that eventually led me to be
the executive director of aplace called the Compass Center
in Sioux Falls, south Dakota,and the Compass Center is a rape
(02:20):
and domestic abuse center wherewe worked with all kinds of
victims, from ages three on up,of both sexual assault and
domestic abuse, men and women,children.
Just a lot of different peoplecame through our doors and I got
to work there for over fouryears until my husband took a
call to New Ulm, minnesota, andhad to leave there, kind of
(02:42):
kicking and screaming because Ireally enjoyed the work.
It sounds weird screamingbecause I really enjoyed the
work.
It sounds weird, but I reallyloved the work that we were
doing helping survivors of abuse, came to New Ulm and worked for
Kingdom Workers for a year ortwo years and helped them to put
together a program to helpchurches work with domestic
abuse, because oftentimes what Ifound is the faith community
(03:05):
doesn't understand how to bestwork with the survivor of abuse,
and so I worked with them toput together a program to help
provide training to churches sonot just the leadership but
people in the church could helpwith survivors and to provide
the advocacy that survivors need.
Now I am at actually MartinLuther College.
(03:26):
I went from graduation to nowI'm alumni director here and
enjoying the work that I do here.
I also get to help withstudents and provide some
education to the students hereabout especially dating violence
, because that's what'shappening for the age group that
we're at here.
Christa Potratz (03:43):
Well, you know, I'm sure that, with your
background and with everythingthat you have been a part of too
, you can probably help us alljust to be able to define abuse.
I'm sure there's many differenttypes of it, but how would we
go about defining abuse andtalking about it?
Michelle Markgraf (04:08):
go about defining abuse and talking about
it.
When I explain abuse to people,it really breaks down into two
things.
The first is it's a pattern ofbehaviors.
So it's not something thathappens one time, like I had a
really bad day and hit myhusband or wife.
It's a pattern of behaviorsthat happens over and over and
over throughout a relationshipand it is also an attempt to
control what somebody elsethinks or does.
(04:30):
So those two are really theelements of abuse.
Is there's got to be thatcontinuing behavior and you're
trying to control people?
The way that it happens can bein a lot of different ways.
I think when most people thinkof abuse, they think of the
physical abuse.
They think of the bruises orthe black eyes or broken bones,
(04:51):
things like that, and thatcertainly is one element of
abuse.
But abuse happens across anentire spectrum of things.
The two things that concern memore than the physical is the
emotional abuse and spiritualabuse.
That often happens where theabuser is trying to control a
(05:12):
person by making them fearwhat's going to happen.
We often hear people saying I'mwalking on eggshells around
that person, and that's anelement of the mental abuse, of
you're never quite sure what'sgoing to make them upset.
You know, am I doing it rightor am I doing it wrong?
And it's always me, me.
(05:32):
What am I doing wrong?
And that's difficult, and it'seven more than the physical,
because the physical your eye isgoing to heal, your bones are
going to heal.
That mental, emotional abuse isa lot harder to heal from and
we see ramifications years andyears and years.
After an abuse has occurred.
(05:55):
We'll still see that somepeople suffer the trauma of what
happened.
For me, why it was important towork with churches is the
spiritual abuse aspect thatoften happens in relationship.
And again, it's trying tocontrol somebody.
So the abuser will take Biblepassages and twist them to make
(06:16):
the person listen and obey.
One of the things that I see isthe man will say well, the wife
(06:43):
want to obey my husband, I wantto submit to him, but at the
same time he shouldn't betelling me and I've heard this
that I shouldn't use toiletpaper to blow my nose, I can
only use Kleenex.
That's going too far in beingsubmissive to a husband.
And then some things that peoplenever really think about as far
as abuse is economic abuse andtechnology.
(07:06):
And economic abuse iscontrolling the money so that
the person who you'recontrolling can't leave because
they have no place to gootherwise and they have no
access to money.
I worked with a woman once whowe found out that she had the
house was in her husband's name,that all the vehicles were in
(07:29):
her husband's name.
The detective had arrested himand found some money in the
vehicle and he said here you canhave this money.
And she was afraid to take itbecause she wasn't allowed to
have money.
And if you have absolutely noaccess to money, how can you
leave that abusive relationship?
So that's economic abuse.
And technology.
We see that a lot with Facebook, instagram, all the online
(07:52):
technology, where we've seenabusers who will take control of
somebody's Facebook.
Like I might go to my husband'sFacebook profile and say my
family is awful, I hate myfamily and things like that, and
then his family sees it andthinks, well, this guy is our
son, why would he say thosehurtful things?
(08:13):
And kind of pushes the familyaway then from him so I get more
control over him.
And technology can also be usedwith just phoning somebody,
texting somebody.
We worked with somebody at theCompass Center who had over 150
texts in one day from her abuser.
And how do you work and not getfired when you have to be
(08:34):
constantly answering these?
Because if you don't answer thetext you get in trouble and
when she gets home it could besome serious things happening.
So definitely abuse is thatpattern of behavior trying to
control, and there are manydifferent tactics an abuser uses
to get that control.
Christa Potratz (08:53):
Michelle, you talked a little bit about the
spiritual abuse.
But how else might we asChristians see abuse, maybe in
our circles and churches anddifferent things?
I think sometimes there is thetendency to think, okay, that
happens in sinful or secularhomes or homes that don't have
(09:15):
Jesus.
But how would we maybe reframea little bit with how that can
happen in the Christiancommunity?
Michelle Markgraf (09:24):
Very, very normal to think it doesn't
happen here and whether it's achurch or just your friend group
, it's super easy to think, oh,that's not happening here.
The statistics are that forwomen, 40% of women will have a
physically abusive relationshipat some point in their lifetime.
We never think of it happeningto men, but for men it's one out
(09:45):
of four.
It's going to happen.
And God doesn't have thisspecial dome around our churches
that says well, I know,sometimes some people in church
steal, but you're never going tobe abusive.
The devil works everywhere andeverybody has the same
temptations.
Unfortunately, it does happenquite frequently in churches and
(10:08):
I've not seen any statisticsdifferently that 40% of women in
churches, 25% of men, in theirlifetime will have some kind of
abusive relationship, and wejust need to be aware of that,
that it is happening and itcertainly can happen in a
Christian environment.
We all sin.
This is another sin andsomething just to be aware of
(10:31):
and not to think well, they'renot saying anything, so
everything's okay, because it'svery difficult for somebody to
come forward and say, yeah, I'min a rough relationship.
It's really difficult,especially in today's Facebook,
instagram everything is greatera.
So even though people aren'tsaying it doesn't mean it's not
(10:53):
happening, and it could verywell be happening to somebody
that you know.
I mean statistically, if youknow more than four men, it's
probably happened or will happento somebody that you know.
Jeff Samelson (11:04):
You mentioned earlier the wife.
You should obey me.
Misuse of Scripture.
What are some otherrationalizations or excuses or
defenses of abuse thatChristians will use?
Michelle Markgraf (11:22):
You can just about take anything in Scripture
and twist it for an abuser tomake it sound good and to back
them up, and it could beanything from well.
You're the man, so you shouldbe taking care of the whole
family, and why aren't you doingthat?
And why aren't you workingthree jobs to help make sure
that we all have what we needand you're not taking care of
(11:44):
the family like you should?
It can really be just aboutanything within scriptures, and
both men and women can usescriptures to try and get the
other one to do what it is thatthey want them to do.
Christa Potratz (11:59):
Yeah, that's really sad.
I mean especially too, I hearthat and I'm like, oh, that's
not what scripture is supposedto be used for, and so that's
just a really sad part of it,yeah.
Jeff Samelson (12:11):
And why churches need that help and assistance in
understanding what's going onin the background reinforces for
me the importance of pastors,teachers, churches just teaching
what it really means to love,because loving as Christ loved
(12:32):
us is pretty much the oppositeof abusive behavior and we
really need to spell that outfor people, to make it clear to
the abused that what's happeningis not love, and make it clear
to the abusers, if they'rewilling to listen, that their
excuses don't hold.
Christa Potratz (12:50):
There's maybe a tendency to think that when
somebody is being abused, thatthat's the really hard part,
which I'm sure it really is.
But is there something thathappens after a person leaves an
abusive relationship or anabusive situation that could
(13:14):
maybe even be more traumatizing?
Or, I guess, maybe a better wayto ask, that is, what are the
long-term effects of beingabused?
Michelle Markgraf (13:25):
The effects of abuse can last a lifetime and
oftentimes they do, especiallywhen there's quite a bit of
emotional, mental abuse thathappens, and some of that is
because that person who's beenabused has been conditioned to
first of all believe it's theirfault and they carry that guilt,
(13:48):
that shame with them as theycontinue, that shame with them
as they continue, and then italso causes a type of trauma
that's similar to PTSD thatsoldiers have in war, and
anything in the future cantrigger that trauma.
It could be the smell ofsomebody's cologne, because it's
the same cologne that theirhusband wore, or it could be a
(14:10):
song, because that was the songthat would trigger the wife to
yell at her husband.
Whatever it might be, but itcan have effects way down the
road.
When we work with survivors ofabuse.
I worked with a bunch oftherapists at the Compass Center
and we would see somebody getto a really good, healthy place
(14:34):
healthy place and then they'd beback in a year because
something happened thattriggered them and brought them
back into the abuse and broughtthem back down.
So it's definitely notsomething you're overdone.
Everything's perfect.
It can take a whole lifetime oftherapy.
I really highly suggest therapyfor people, and we have got
Christian Family Solutions,which is a great outlet for a
(14:54):
lot of Wisconsin Lutheran Synodpeople as well as others who
might be listening to thepodcast.
But that's a really goodChristian counseling group that
understands abuse and has workedwith quite a few survivors of
abuse and I really like thethings that they're doing with
them.
A lot of congregations outthere can get a few free
(15:15):
sessions.
It depends on your congregationif they've paid for that or not
, and I'd say, just talk withyour pastor and see if you have
some free sessions.
I always tell people try therapy.
It might work.
It might not work, but at leastyou've tried it.
I think the younger generationsare more apt to do therapy.
The older generations, such asmyself, it's more like oh man, I
(15:40):
can handle this all on my own.
And that's not true.
If you have strep throat, you'dprobably go to a doctor.
If you have this happening,this mental health issues with
your past abuse, a doctor isimportant too, and it's just a
different type of doctor.
Christa Potratz (15:56):
You mentioned before, too, that women are more
likely to be abused than men.
Are there any other types ofgroups that maybe are more
likely to be abused?
I just think from you know astandpoint of maybe being able
to identify or, as other as theChristian community, are there
groups that maybe are morelikely to be abused that we
(16:21):
should be looking out for?
Michelle Markgraf (16:23):
Abuse can happen to anyone, any
socioeconomic level, anyreligion, any ethnicity.
It happens across the board.
Because that sinful desire tocontrol can happen to anyone and
anybody can fall into that typeof relationship.
There are some things thatmight make you more susceptible
(16:46):
to abuse and that would be ifyou grew up in a family where
abuse was prevalent.
That becomes normal to you andso getting into a relationship
like that feels natural andnormal.
And a lot of times if somebodyhas had an abusive relationship
in the past, they're much morelikely to get into abusive
relationships in the future.
(17:07):
And it's going to soundcounterintuitive, but if I've
been in an abusive relationshipin the past, I will probably
seek out that type ofrelationship in the future
because it's comfortable to meand I know the parameters, I
know how to deal with that.
(17:28):
I've heard a lot of survivors ofabuse say I'm in a healthy
relationship and it feels scaryto me because it's just not
normal.
So having that normalcy ofabuse you know if it's happened
in the past, it's more likely tocontinue in future
relationships just because it'snormal.
And if you grew up in ahousehold like that, that's the
normal, that's how you interactwith your significant other and
(17:49):
will more likely happen in thefuture.
And it will more likely happenin the future, but anybody is
open to it.
I often talk with teens who sayI'm never going to do that and
I say don't say that because youjust never know.
Abuse never starts.
Abuse happens very slowly overan extended period of time and
(18:12):
you kind of fall into it anddon't realize it's happening
until it's too late.
So it can definitely happen toanybody.
Definitely never say it'llnever happen to me, because then
if it does, you'll be even morenot willing to go and get some
help from somebody.
Christa Potratz (18:28):
If we find out that someone that we know, a
friend, a church member, ismaybe telling us about their
relationship or about somethinggoing on and we think, oh, that
sounds a little bit like abuse,what should we do?
What would you suggest?
I mean, is it wise to just comeout and say, oh, I think that
(18:53):
sounds like an abusiverelationship, you should get out
of that.
Or you know what is yourrecommendation if the red flags
go up?
For us.
Michelle Markgraf (19:05):
The first part's easy, and the first and
actually most powerful thingthat you can do for a survivor
is to believe what's happening.
And that can be really difficultbecause the person they might
say is the abuser could besomebody that you respect.
(19:26):
It could be somebody who'svolunteering a lot at church,
and the biggest thing to do isjust to believe that survivor in
that moment.
If it's my sister-in-law thatcomes to me and says your
brother did X Y Z to be the bestadvocate I can, I need to
(19:47):
believe her first that threemonths now from now, I might
learn something different.
That makes me not believe somuch.
But in that moment when youdiscover it, belief is the most
powerful thing that can be done.
And then the second thing andthis is the hard part of working
with a survivor of abuse, andyou kind of said what's the
(20:10):
natural thing is well, you gottaleave.
You know that that's ournatural thing is we want to help
, we.
We see exactly how this is notgood.
But the second thing to do isto listen to what they want and
then be with them in that.
So most likely they are goingto want to get back together
(20:34):
with the person, especially, youknow, if they've separated for
a little bit, that they're goingto want to get back with that
person.
That's completely normal and myjob as their friend, as an
advocate, is to help them dothat.
But then also ask them okay,you're going to do this, but
what are you going to do to staysafe Next time this happens?
(20:56):
What's your plan?
And to help them have that plan.
And the reason I say that isfirst of all, that victim might
understand if they don't go back, they could be the next murder
victim and so they know best howto stay safe.
And if they want to go backinto that relationship, let's
(21:17):
help them do that.
But let's help them stay safe.
Maybe it's all right we've gotthis word.
If you say tinkerbell to me,then I know I need to get over
to your house becausesomething's happening.
Just figure out different waysto keep them safe.
Help them safety plan indifferent areas of their life.
The average number of timessomebody's going to leave their
abuser and come back into therelationship is seven before
(21:41):
they leave for good, and that isso tough as a person on the
outside to see.
You know it's not good for thatperson.
You see this happening to them.
But we need to be there allseven times or ten times or
however many.
It is because when they arefinally ready to leave for good,
they need your support, becausewithout support they have.
(22:05):
I mean, what if there'seconomic abuse and you don't
realize it?
You're telling them to leave,but they can't.
So having your support isreally important for when they
do finally want to leave.
Is it easy?
Not at all, it is verydifficult.
But definitely believe, and Iwould also say, just be on the
(22:26):
lookout for it too.
We like to think it's nothappening to people that we know
, especially if we didn't growup in that type of environment.
It doesn't happen to my friendsand family and it does.
And I have a story of a friendof mine who, before I, really
got into the domestic abusesector of work.
(22:49):
They were friends and she'd saya few things where I just
thought, well, that's, that'sreally dumb.
Like he wanted silverware onlyone way in the dishwasher and if
it wasn't that way he'd get mad.
She'd say, like I'm like, well,just put it the right way, you
know what's what's to worryabout.
But then one day they came overto our house for supper and she
kept excusing herself to thebathroom and she has a doctor,
(23:12):
and I thought, well, maybe she'son call and she's just doing
her call in the bathroom.
And I asked once when she left Isaid what's wrong?
Why does she keep going in thebathroom?
And her husband said, oh, she'sbeen throwing up today, but I
really wanted to come to yourhouse, so we're here for supper
and I'm like all right,no-transcript.
(23:55):
And said you know what?
That's not okay, that hebrought you over throwing up.
And it's not okay because ofwhat it did to you, not because
of, you know, making me sick.
And so just being aware of thatand seeing that and not being
afraid to say something, justgentle, like is everything okay?
(24:15):
I'm not going to say is heabusing you, because she's not
going to say yes, but just sayyou know stuff like that happen
very often and just find outmore and again, believe as she
says it and, at the end of theday, do what she wants, but help
her, do it safely.
Jeff Samelson (24:34):
Are there particular signs or anything?
Obviously, if some guy isbeating up his wife or kids and
there are bruises, we can say,oh, that looks like it could be
abuse.
But if it's not something likethat, I mean, what are the
things we should be looking for?
Michelle Markgraf (25:01):
Definitely the physical signs are the
easiest.
Other things that could besigns that there's abuse
happening could be lowself-esteem Somebody's always
putting themselves down Could bedifficulty in controlling their
own emotions.
Maybe they get angry super easyor they have outbursts or
demanding behaviors.
That could be a sign of abuseand something we see quite often
because abuse is controllingsomebody else is we see somebody
(25:26):
that has poor boundaries andthey let other people just come
in and do as they wish, whetherit's a friend or the abuser just
because that abuser has pushedthe boundaries so much to get
control that now the personwho's the victim doesn't have
good boundaries.
And that shows up in all oftheir relationships, not just
(25:47):
that with the house.
And sometimes it's justlistening to your sixth sense of
saying so.
For me, from now on, if I saythat person's a jerk, I'm going
to go talk to their spouse ortheir boyfriend, girlfriend and
say you know how are thingsgoing.
So some of it's just listeningto that too.
But yeah, it's not easy becausepeople hide it, because we
(26:10):
don't want to tell people that'shappening in our lives.
It's a very personal and veryintimate thing and it's hard to
invite other people into yourlife when it's happening.
Christa Potratz (26:21):
You mentioned earlier about some of the work
you had done when you were atKingdom, workers with
congregations.
What is it that congregationscan do to help people that have
survived abuse or who are beingabused too, that have survived
abuse or who are being abused.
Michelle Markgraf (26:38):
Too Big thing for Toshes is to talk about it
and talk about it.
Often there are a lot ofexamples in scripture of abuse
that takes place and we kind ofgloss over the abuse and talk
about other things.
But you know, like when Lotstuck his daughters out and let
(27:02):
the men of Sodom and Gomorrahhave their way with them, that's
abuse and we don't talk aboutit really as abuse in our church
.
But when stories like that comeup, say that's abuse.
Finding those things inScripture and pointing out abuse
and talking about how that'snot okay is really important.
Sometimes we only leave it forlike, the domestic abuse month
and might be one time in theyear, but being able to talk
(27:25):
about it all the time isimportant.
Through Kingdom Workers thereis training that is offered for
people in the church that wantto be advocates and can be like
the safe person for somebody totalk to.
I'm an advocate at our church inSt Paul's New Ulm and we've got
tear-off strips in all thebathroom stalls for both men and
(27:49):
women with my phone number andemail information that they can
send to me.
Our pastors are really good too,because I know how to be an
advocate of sending people to meif they want to talk to
somebody else Victims when Ifirst talk with them I'm like
I'm not going to tell pastorthat you're talking to me.
(28:11):
If you want him to know, you canlet him know, but I'm not going
to say anything and build thatrelationship of whatever you
tell me is very confidential andnobody's going to hear about it
and just for people to knowthat that's okay and some people
might never talk to me, butthey see those posters in the
(28:31):
bathroom, they see that that'savailable in the church and
that's a signal to them thatthis church understands this is
happening.
They're not going to push itunder the rug.
Hopefully it makes some of themmore willing to talk to their
pastors about what's going onbecause, again, that spiritual
abuse is what concerns me themost and I don't want their
faith to be shaken by the abuseor have that abuser tell them
(28:55):
that they're not going to heavenbecause of X, y, Z and they
really need that reassurancefrom the pastor.
Christa Potratz (29:02):
If someone is listening to this podcast and
they are a survivor of abuse orare still suffering from abuse,
what would you want him or herto know?
Michelle Markgraf (29:15):
The biggest thing is that you are not alone,
because being in an abusiverelationship it feels like I'm
all alone because people aroundyou aren't talking about their
abuse either.
So understand this is happeningto other Christians.
It's most likely happening toother people in your church.
(29:36):
You don't know in your church.
You don't know about it becausethey don't know about what's
happening to you either.
So just understand that thisisn't something only you are
suffering.
It is happening to you as well.
And I like to point to Jesus.
He suffered the ultimate abusewith absolutely no reason in the
(29:57):
world for it to happen.
He was perfect and he gets it.
Even if you can't tell anybodyelse being able to talk to Jesus
in prayer, he understands whathappened and what you're going
through, and he went throughabuse as well while he was on
earth and is very understandingand better to listen to your
(30:18):
abuse story than somebody whosuffered hell for no reason.
So definitely point everybodyback to the word if abuse is
happening in your life and toknow that Jesus does understand
what's happening and he is withyou.
We oftentimes don't know whyit's happening and that's a huge
question.
That survivors ask is why, andwe might not know.
(30:41):
This side of heaven.
I've worked with a lot of abusesurvivors who now help others
and they say that was a toughpart of my life and now I can
help other people and they kindof see that full circle and
they're very thankful that theycan help others.
Maybe that's why, maybe it isjust because that is the way the
world is and we won't knowuntil heaven why this is
(31:05):
happening.
But those are the big things.
You're not alone.
Jesus is with you, he's walkingwith you, even if it doesn't
feel like it all the time.
Sometimes it can feel very,very lonely.
Very much encourage reading thePsalms, reading the Gospels,
reading what Jesus did for you.
And then there is help outthere.
(31:26):
There's a national hotline thatpeople can just Google the
National Domestic ViolenceHelpline and that helpline can
get you in touch with your localshelters.
Not that you have to go andlive in a shelter, but they can
definitely help with advocateswho offer free help to folks.
Whether they want to do aprotection order, if they want
(31:48):
to just plan for their safety,if they want somebody to go with
them to talk to a detective,the shelters are there.
They do a lot more than justshelter people.
They're there to listen to andsometimes they even offer free
therapy with people who aretrained to work with abuse
survivors.
So there's help out there and Iencourage people to keep moving
(32:08):
forward and know that you're inmy prayers, if not by name, at
least by what's happening to you.
Least by what's happening toyou.
Christa Potratz (32:15):
Well, thank you , michelle.
Thank you so much for joiningus, and we thank all of our
listeners too, and if you haveany questions on this topic or
any others, you can reach us atlifechallengesus.
We look forward to having youback next time.
Bye.
Paul Snamiska (32:32):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of
the Life Challenges podcast fromChristian Life Resources.
Please consider subscribing tothis podcast, giving us a review
wherever you access it andsharing it with friends.
We're sure you have questionson today's topic or other life
issues.
Our goal is to help you throughthese tough topics and we want
you to know we're here to help.
(32:54):
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
suggestions for future episodes,at lifechallengesus or email us
at podcast atchristianliferesourcescom.
In addition to the podcasts, weinclude other valuable
information at lifechallengesus,so be sure to check it out.
(33:15):
For more about our parentorganization, please visit
ChristianLifeResourcescom.
May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge.
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