April 29, 2025 • 35 mins
Heroes capture our imagination and inspire us to greatness, but what makes someone truly heroic? In this thought-provoking episode, we explore heroism through biblical, cultural, and pro-life perspectives.
The conversation begins by examining what separates ordinary good behavior from genuine heroism - the element of risk and sacrifice. While cultural heroes often exemplify societal ideals, biblical heroism centers on being an example worth following rather than achieving fame. We trace how Scripture rarely uses the term "hero," instead focusing on examples like Christ who modeled principles worth emulating.
What happens when our heroes disappoint us? The podcast shares candid stories about pro-life speakers whose flaws became apparent, reminding us that even figures like Mother Teresa experienced doubts. Biblical heroes like Peter and Paul similarly demonstrated weaknesses alongside their faith, making them relatable rather than untouchable ideals.
Looking at the pro-life movement specifically, we identify authentic heroes: mothers choosing life despite difficult circumstances, medical professionals maintaining ethical standards regardless of professional pressure, and politicians standing for life when political winds blow the opposite direction. These individuals demonstrate heroism through sacrifice and adherence to higher principles.
The discussion challenges our culture's tendency to label self-centered choices as "heroic" while ignoring genuine sacrifice for others. We're reminded that principles matter more than personality, and that sometimes we must appreciate heroes whom others don't recognize or understand.
Who are your heroes? What makes them worthy of admiration? Join us as we explore how flawed heroes can inspire us and how true heroism may be closer than we think.
Find strength and courage in your faith at this year’s FEARLESS FAITH Conference. Inspired by Joshua 1:9, “Be strong and courageous,” join us Saturday, September 13, at Kettle Moraine Lutheran High School in Jackson, Wisconsin, for presentations on navigating life’s storms, understanding God’s peace, and engaging in crucial conversations about euthanasia, anorexia, abortion, prenatal genetic testing, and more. Hear powerful journeys of faith through loss and hope. Don’t miss this empowering event! $50 in person or $40 virtual. Register now: https://christianliferesources.com/resources/events/2025-conference/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bob Fleischmann (00:19):
On today's episode doing all sorts of other
things, being involved in otherindustries.
But there's something a lothigher.
Those are heroes, and a lot oftimes you just have to be
content with admiring heroes whoother people aren't going to
share your appreciation for.
Paul Snamiska (00:38):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources.
People today face manyopportunities and struggles when
it comes to issues of life anddeath, marriage and family,
health and science.
We're here to bring a freshbiblical perspective to these
issues and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz (01:03):
Hi and welcome back.
I'm Krista Potratz, and I'mhere today with pastors Bob
Fleischman and Jeff Samuelson,and today we're going to talk
about heroes.
We want to talk about heroes inthe biblical context today, but
also just how it relates to ourlife and then as well as life
(01:24):
challenges and the pro-lifetopics that we cover too, and so
just really wanted to startmaybe on just defining what a
hero is, maybe both just in ourmodern culture and maybe
biblically as well too.
Bob Fleischmann (01:44):
Well, first of all, in culture a hero seems to
rise to the surface asexemplifying everything we want
for that.
That's why, for example, in thepro-life movement I remember
the first time and I don'tremember which year that was,
but there was the shooting of anabortionist and there were some
(02:04):
who called him a hero forhaving done that and others, and
myself included, deplored it.
So sometimes it has to doideologically where you're
positioned, but heroes reallyare just exemplify kind of a
high ideal in our secularculture.
There's a tendency to just thinkwell, a hero is somebody who's
(02:27):
done something I really like.
That I think maybe I would wantto do if I were in that
situation.
Sometimes hero is more just.
You know, wow, this is somebodywho's just really good at what
he does.
You know, particularly not somuch today, but in earlier ages
great warrior, regardless ofwhether he was a good person or
not, would just be well, he's ahero.
(02:48):
But there's really should be alot more nuance to it, because
if we're really going to betalking about heroes in the
sense of these are people thatwe look up to, these are good
examples for us.
We need to define the term, orat least understand it, in such
a way that we're not holding upthings or people that shouldn't
(03:09):
be held up for us and that we'reimportant.
Or why do we kind of feel likewe maybe even need heroes to do
the right thing when it involvesrisk to them?
So we need people who have theguts to do the right things at
(03:50):
the right times and for theright reasons, even when there
is risk involved.
And I think that aspect of riskis really kind of a key thing
when we're talking about being ahero.
Doing the right thing justdoesn't cost you anything.
Well, that's great that you didthe right thing, but we don't
really see anything particularlyheroic in that, and so, in the
(04:10):
first sense, we need thembecause they do things that
other people aren't willing todo, but in a secondary sense, we
need them for examples.
We need them for encouragements, things that we ourselves can
look to, and particularly, Ithink, things that we can point
our children to successivegenerations and say this is what
the good person looks like,this is what it means to hold on
(04:32):
to something and be willing topay the price for it.
One of the things I did inprepping for today's podcast was
I went into the NIV and I saidyou know, show me every place in
the Bible that uses the wordhero and it doesn't show up at
all in the New Testament, it'sonly in the Old Testament and
(04:52):
it's only in seven verses and in, I believe, six of the seven or
five of the seven, it uses thesame word and in all of those
instances, well, the word that'sused is tied closely to the
word strength.
In other words, they were knownfor strong, being strong,
courageous and, quite honestly,I like the King James
(05:16):
translation of being renowned.
In other words, they were knownfor this, Like, for example,
the first use of the word iswith the Nephilim in the Old
Testament and they were calledheroes and the King James
Version says that they wereactually people.
They were known for beingstrong, known for being mighty,
(05:36):
those kinds of things.
And these were people too right,pre-Noah, right, Yep, and then
it also is used after the floodto describe some different
people who are known for beinglike, for example, goliath.
When they found out their herowas dead is what the passage
says.
And yeah, the fellow was dead,but really hero, I just think,
(06:00):
is a poor translation in the OldTestament, because it's also
the word hero is used todescribe King David in one of
the Psalms.
The interesting thing is is, Ithought, well, first of all,
what's the Hebrew word?
It's not the same Hebrew wordas translated as Hebrew for
Nephilim or for Goliath.
But also what was interestingis that the King James Version
(06:24):
basically said he was somethingon the order of the sweetest of
the psalmist.
In other words, when you lookedat the etymology of the Hebrew
word used and it really was kindof an accentuation of all that
is all that is.
(06:47):
So, for example, for theNephilim and for Goliath, it was
emphasis of them being strong,mighty, the champion who was
going to do everything.
In the example of David.
It was just the melodic.
He wrote the most beautifulpsalms and that's how the word
is used.
Then, when you slip over intothe New Testament, it's never
used.
What's the predominant word inthe New Testament?
And it's the word what's thepredominant word in the New
Testament?
And it's the word that Jeffjust touched on.
(07:07):
And that is example.
And I think that when we wantto think of the word hero as
Christians, first of allremember context.
The world's context of a herois someone who's making the
world a better place.
But when we talk about heroesof faith and so forth, we're
(07:28):
talking about people whoexemplify.
And perhaps you know the bestexample is where we're told in
Scripture Christ suffered foryou, leaving you an example that
you should follow in his steps,which has always been like the
(08:00):
marching orders for me in tryingto show kindness and they're
able to distinguish them fromapplications, even while they
make brave and perhaps costlyapplications of those principles
.
And this is part of whatdistinguishes a hero from
everybody else.
Talk about Christian martyrs.
A true Christian martyrrecognizes that the principle is
(08:24):
that you always remain faithfulto Christ no matter what, and
the application of thatprinciple might mean that you're
going to put your life at riskbecause you're going to stay
faithful and somebody'sthreatened you if you do that
and you may lose your life as aresult of that.
But a false martyr and therewere lots of these throughout
(08:45):
the history of the Christianchurch, particularly when you
got into about the third orfourth or fourth or fifth
centuries and so false martyrlashes onto the application and
seeks or even incitespersecution and possible death.
Well, this is what a martyrdoes die for their faith and
they claim it's all for Jesus.
(09:05):
But at the best they'reconfused.
At worst they're just doing itfor their own reasons.
They've lost sight of thatprinciple which is staying true
to Christ, and confused it there.
Another example would be inwartime.
The wartime hero recognizesthat the principle is to fight
as effectively as possible toprotect the people important to
(09:27):
him and to achieve whateverobjective is there.
The application of thatprinciple is being that he's
going to put his entire life atrisk in order to do this.
The coward looks at theapplication and says I want
nothing to do with that, andrejects the principle behind it.
And so I think we can applythis to all sorts of different
(09:51):
things, and that's why theprinciple of the idea of an
example works in there so much,because what makes this person
an example?
This is somebody who's got thispure sense of the principle
behind it and is not onlywilling to do the right thing,
is willing to do the right thingno matter what it costs.
One of the challenges when Ilooked at this topic is the
(10:12):
first question I started askingmyself is okay, you know, bob,
who are your heroes?
asking myself is okay, you know,bob, who are your heroes, and
other than Gordon Lightfoot no,I'm sorry, nobody appreciates my
taste in music Never understoodthat, but the reality was I
realized I had no heroes in theway the world of stands.
(10:34):
Heroes I have, people who arejust incredible examples of
faith that I not only—it'sprobably a combination of envy
and aspire when I was listeningto Jeff talk about you know the
people who are doing things thatyou can't do.
(10:55):
I mean, I have a whole longlist of people like that, that
people who you know are—peoplesay, well, you know, I could
never be a missionary in Africa.
You know I could never do that.
And I'm thinking, shoot, Icouldn't be a missionary in
southern United States.
They got snakes down there andthey got—.
I mean there are just differentthings that people do that you
(11:18):
can't do, and I admire that.
I genuinely admire that.
Somebody asked me once whatwould your autobiography look
like, and I said well, myautobiography would actually be
multiple chapters and everychapter devoted to a person that
has touched me in life for goodor bad.
I mean, you know, not everycontact in life was a positive
(11:42):
experience, but the point is isthat there's a ton of chapters
that would be devoted to peoplewho were incredible examples.
You too, I mean.
In many ways, both of youdemonstrate characteristics that
I long for and I'm trying tolearn them and I keep studying,
and I think you know the problemis, I was very interested
(12:04):
during the time that MotherTeresa lived and then the
reaction when Mother Teresa diedand then the reaction when her
book came out.
You know, because when her bookcame out, it crushed a lot of
people because she expresseddoubts about her faith.
The Bible passage says yes, lord, I do believe.
(12:25):
Help me overcome my unbelief.
How many times have we said,hey, that describes me?
It's kind of like why do weidentify so well with Peter and
Paul when Paul says the goodthat I would do, that I do not,
the evil.
I would not do that.
I keep on doing and we're goinghey, that's me, or Peter, you
know, stepping out of the boat.
God, I'll walk on water for you.
(12:45):
And then, all of a sudden, youstart looking at the waves, you
start sinking.
That's me, you know.
We see ourselves so often inthat.
And so when Mother Teresa, whofor some odd reason they all
thought she was this almost likeperfect personification of a
saint in life, demonstrated shewas the perfect personification
(13:07):
of every other human being.
You know, there were times ofgreat faith and great sacrifice,
great kindness worth imitatingby all of us, and there were
times where she was incrediblyhuman and she showed that.
And I think when we begin tosee that in our heroes, in our
(13:27):
examples, I think we begin toget the flavor of what Scripture
talks about.
Christa Potratz (13:32):
I think that's true too, because I also was
thinking about my heroes as well, and I could think of heroes
that I had had for a shortperiod of time, but then it
changed a little bit, and so Iwas, on this too, like, okay,
well, why did it change?
Some of it was realizing thatthese people that I had looked
(13:53):
up to or thought of as heroeswere not perfect.
Right, because heroes tend toshow their flaws at some point
too, and even just thinkingabout, like comic book heroes I
mean, superman had hiskryptonite I mean there were
weaknesses with heroes, and Iguess that makes for good movies
(14:15):
and stuff too.
But you know just this ideathat our heroes, that there are
holes in that, and even withbiblical heroes too, like what
you were saying just about Peterand Paul too, and how, in some
ways, you look up to thosepeople because they do have
(14:35):
weaknesses, like you have aswell, because they do have
weaknesses, like you have aswell.
Bob Fleischmann (14:39):
I also was asking, okay, who have been my
heroes?
And I just realized it's easier, at least if you're thinking of
the big characters of thingsand not just the people you know
in your own life.
It's a lot easier to find themin history than in current
events because it's a fixedquantity there and you don't
have to worry about well, if Icall him a hero today, what's he
(14:59):
going to do tomorrow?
And so I was thinking, okay,set aside all the people in the
Bible for now, because that's agiven, we can say that I can
look theologically andreligiously to people like
Martin Luther and MartinChemnitz, people who stood on
(15:20):
their principles, andparticularly Luther's great.
Here I stand, I can do no otherspeech.
But then there are figures likeWilliam Wilberforce, out of
history, a British politicianwas really in many ways the key
man in making sure that Britainoutlawed the slave trade, which
(15:43):
had been a huge moneymaker forBritain.
And just an amazing story.
A strong Christian and thatinformed and inspired everything
he did.
And he's just the kind of personyou say, well, yeah, I would
like to be like that.
If I were a politician, that'sthe kind of man I would look up
(16:04):
to.
And then there are people likeAbraham Lincoln, and he's always
been a bit of a personal heroto me.
I feel more of a connectionwith him.
But what you learn about him,he had flaws.
He considered himself aChristian but he wasn't much of
a churchgoer.
He knew his Bible.
He quoted the Bible, the thingI was talking about, principles.
(16:25):
He understood the principlePeople shouldn't be enslaved,
and he was willing to do thingsin order to see that come true,
even when it wasn't politicallyadvantageous to him.
He was able to do that and heachieved a whole lot and he paid
the price for it.
I'm sure his wife would havepreferred he hadn't been quite
so out front with so many thingsthere.
(16:48):
And there's so many people likethat if you look for them.
I have to admit there wassomebody else I was thinking of,
as you know, a really goodexample of humble heroes Frodo
and Sam from the Lord of theRings.
It's just like, yeah, that'sheroism for you.
They know what they have to do.
They do it no matter the costand without losing who they are
(17:11):
in the process.
Now I'm going to give you somereal practical examples of what
you guys are talking about withheroes who are flawed.
One of the things and it mademe think of it when Jeff was
talking about history is an easyplace.
I think pretty much everybodyknows that.
I'm a big history buff, do alot of reading on history and
(17:33):
I'm always shattered.
Sometimes I'll pick up a bookon history and I'm all eager to
read it and all of a sudden youread all these other stories you
weren't aware that came up.
Well, in pro-life work we lookfor heroes who stand on
principle and I'll give you avery practical example.
In the early 90s Dr BernardNathanson, who was very involved
(17:54):
in the pro-abortion movementlate 60s, early 70s, ran an
abortion clinic, was veryinvolved in the pro-abortion
movement late 60s, early 70s,ran an abortion clinic and then
he became a pro-life convert,which, of course, becomes a hero
.
That's how you become a hero.
I mean, he just saw the errorof his ways, basically publicly
disavowed his allegiances and hecame out with two videos in
(18:16):
which he had showed what happensin an abortion.
They were horrible videos towatch and everything Noteworthy
was in the second video.
It was narrated by none otherthan Charlton Heston who played
Moses and the voice of God inthe Ten Commandments, and just
really big deal.
So in 1995, we're getting readyfor our national convention, so
(18:39):
we decide we're going to getCharlton Heston.
So I had to work with somedonors on it and work with
Heston's office.
Long and short of it is,charlton Heston was our main
speaker for a convention we wereholding in Michigan.
It was the first time we everhad a high-profile speaker of
(18:59):
that caliber.
We sold out the number ofpeople we could have at the
convention.
Everything was going great,people we could have at the
convention, everything was goinggreat.
So it's like a week before theconvention and one of the staff
people said well, you know,heston's biography just came out
, autobiography, and in it heswears, it's like what, and he's
retelling stories from theCecil B DeMille film of Ten
(19:23):
Commandments and it involvedhorrible language and things.
And then it was revealed thathe also sent money on occasion
to support Planned Parenthood.
And this is our main speaker.
So then he's not only our mainspeaker.
So you know we kind of sit instaff meeting, we're going.
Well, maybe nobody will readthe book yet before the
(19:43):
convention so we get to theconvention.
So what does he do?
First of all, when he comes,he's an elderly man, so he is
not Moses from the TenCommandments anymore.
And I still remember himshuffling out and one of our
staff people made a joke about Ihave kind of a high-pitched
voice.
And so he always said here I am, hi everybody, here's Charlton
(20:06):
Heston, and then of course thevoice of God.
You know, heston comes out,he's crouched over a little bit.
He actually gets behind thepodium, stands straight up and
just that voice, booming voice.
But what does he do?
In the course of his speech,which was a pre-written speech,
he probably gave a hundred times.
He swore a couple of times inthe speech at the audience of
(20:26):
Christian Life Resources and ofcourse then the letters would
come and everything.
But it does raise the question.
You know, we admired him forthe work he had done on the
narration of that second video,but I couldn't control all the
other things he had done.
I wish he hadn't sworn, I wishhe hadn't given money to an
organization like PlannedParenthood.
(20:46):
But it was just the reality.
And there are other stories ofspeakers in our past, some of
whom were wells.
You admired them.
You had them speak and thensomething happens in the past
and comes up in their life andall of our heroes were tarnished
.
I would have liked to have theApostle Peter speak at one of
our conventions, but I don'tknow how I would have explained
(21:09):
how you could be lookingstraight at Jesus and you're
sinking in the lake.
How simple that should havebeen.
I think there's a lesson ofcaution, not only in how we
adopt an example, but caution inhow critical we want to be of
people who choose examples.
I admire Charlton Heston forbeing in a very liberal
(21:32):
environment and being willing tostand for pro-life.
Okay, that didn't meaneverything he had done was right
, and the same thing too.
You know there are people whoare going to admire any one of
the three of us for what we havedone, but we hope they don't
look at everything.
You know.
The psalmist said you know,don't hold the sins of my youth
(21:53):
against me.
Prior to recording, chris and Iwere talking about next week
having a high school friend comearound and we're going to do it
.
I've got a feeling he's goingto remember a couple of things
and I hope nobody else remembers.
It's things like that, you know, and that's because we're
dealing with flawed people, andthat's why, if you only want one
reliable example, it'll beJesus.
Christa Potratz (22:15):
Right, I think you know.
What Bob has really touched on,too is this idea of what
happens when our heroes fail usand we see their flaws and or we
see them fall a little bit too.
Bob Fleischmann (22:33):
When that happens, I think a first
question we want to askourselves is was it right to be
holding this person up as a heroin the first place?
Maybe some sports star orsomething like that?
It's like, wow, this guy isgreat and like, was he really?
Maybe I was just impressed bysomething, but maybe what I
thought was good wasn't actually.
But even when you get beyondthat it's the point that's been
(22:55):
made we recognize that ourheroes are human just as we are.
They may be better, they mayactually be holier than we are.
They may not be.
It may simply be that God hasplaced them into this particular
situation at this particulartime to do this particular thing
and they are heroic in the waythat they do that, but the rest
(23:18):
of their life it may be a mess.
Look at David he called a heroin the Bible, did many heroic
things, and yet look at thewhole thing with Bathsheba and
Uriah Definitely had his flawsthere.
And we can look at Abraham andwe can look at all the disciples
and so many others in Scriptureand see the same thing.
So one thing we remember isthat weaknesses, even one-time
(23:42):
failures, don't necessarily undoanything about that person's
heroism.
They certainly don't destroythe principles that gave birth
to that heroism either.
Christa Potratz (23:55):
When I was thinking about biblical heroes
too and kind of like just howBob was saying too, with people
like Peter and you see peoplethat struggled but then rose
above it, and so it's like yousee their flaws but then maybe
they rise above it.
But one that I have been justthinking about recently is Rahab
(24:19):
and how just her past and justthe things that maybe must have
been going through her mind oryou know, I mean, was she
helping the spies because shejust really didn't have hope
anymore, or did she reallybelieve to and then just.
But I mean, you can see thegrowth in that and when you can
(24:43):
rise above your circumstancestoo just gives such motivation,
I think, for other people too.
Bob Fleischmann (24:52):
We have a problem in our society today
where people are flipping it.
They are taking the flaws ofpeople and they are elevating
those as things that are heroicthings that are heroic.
I think, for example, whenBruce Jenner decided that he was
going to be Caitlyn, all sortsof people came out and talked
about how heroic that was andall sorts of similar things,
(25:15):
with people coming out ashomosexuals and things like this
oh, this was such a hero and no, it's not.
Because what they're doingisn't good.
It's self-centered, notother-centered.
The only principle there is dowhat's right by you.
People will like the example ofthat, because that encourages
(25:36):
them to do what's right by them.
But as Christians, we can'thold out as heroes people who
are only really serving theirown desires and that are
obviously doing things that arecontrary to God's will.
This morning in my morningreadings, I was looking at the
(25:56):
list of the people who weregoing to be given the Medal of
Honor today in a White Houseproceeding, and the names that
you hear in the media probablythe most often is like Liz
Cheney, so that's always comingup and of course the media is
getting behind it because shewas Republican.
This is the Democraticpresident going to give her the
(26:17):
Medal of Honor for the January6th hearings and so forth and,
quite honestly, that's neitherhere nor there.
For me, that's politics andstuff.
So I'm going down the list andI run across Eleanor Smeal and
I'm going that name.
I know I remember it back anumber of years ago, but she was
head of the NationalOrganization of Women.
(26:38):
She was a big, major advocatein abortion rights and so forth,
and I'm looking at this and I'mgoing.
So this is what the presidentof our nation is going to give
the Medal of Honor, which iskind of like civilian heroes.
That's really what it is.
And, of course, the millions ofthoughts that run through my
(26:59):
mind.
You know, I'm looking at thatand I'm going when you're living
for heaven on earth, whenyou're living for this is the
way I want everything to be.
Maybe that's it In their visionof heaven on earth women should
be able to kill their offspring.
Then these kinds of people getthe alarms, they get the
(27:23):
accolades, and I think we haveto remember why people have the
different heroes.
And I think to myself whatmakes a sports hero Well, we've
had a past speaker at one of ourCLR conferences, conventions
was Bart Starr.
Why was Bart Starr here?
Quite honestly, you know, bartStarr always was a personal
(27:45):
sports hero of mine.
Honestly, bart Starr always wasa personal sports hero of mine,
and the reason I liked BartStarr, quite honestly, was
(28:09):
Rawhide Boys Ranch, which theyboasted.
An 86% rate of them never goingback into crime, which is the
secular rate, was like 12% orsome ridiculously low average.
And Rawhide was my template forwhen I started New Beginnings,
the home for mothers, and so Ithought, well, if Bart Starr was
(28:30):
behind it, I'd like to get kindof behind it.
Well then, on top of that, bartand Cherry Starr lost a son
from drug overdose and I'vealways been concerned about
substance abuse and fightingthat.
So you know, he just became alogical one to do it and I
figured I didn't know where hewas on abortion and positions
like that.
But I so you know, he justbecame a logical one to do it
and I figured I didn't knowwhere he was on abortion and
positions like that.
(28:51):
But I figured, you know, if hedoesn't like our position he'll
just say no when we ask him.
And instead he said yes.
So I was all excited.
But then again, like CharltonHeston, his speech was probably
the same speech he gave lastnight at the JC's meeting and
the night before at the Knightsof Columbus and the nights
before, you know, just like that.
(29:12):
So we tend to, even with sportsstars, we've got to ask
ourselves why do we pick them?
I don't know how you guys arenow, but when I'm watching these
, you know, I'm looking atcharacter that becomes, you know
, a sports hero who's justincredible at their sport isn't
enough for me anymore.
I'm looking for character.
(29:32):
And then, of course you take arisk because again, characters
in an imperfect world meanthere's going to be character
flaws.
But I do look at character andI admire character.
I look at the kicker for theKansas City Chiefs, strong
(29:54):
Christian stands for traditionalfamily, which of course is not
popular nowadays.
And when they interviewed thequarterback Mahomes for how do
you feel about that?
Mahomes said I don't agree withall of his positions but I
admire him.
Well, if I were the quarterbackfor the Kansas City Chiefs, I
(30:15):
admire him for kicking fieldgoals and stuff, getting the
ball where it's supposed to go.
So you've got to remember thatyou're dealing in some pretty
rocky territory.
Christa Potratz (30:27):
Well, as we kind of bring it together then
too, when we were thinking, then, of pro-life, who can our
pro-life heroes be, and how canwe identify them in the context
of marriage and family too?
Bob Fleischmann (30:44):
them in the context of marriage and family
too.
Oh, I think Bob alluded to thisearlier that some we do not call
heroes are the people who blowup abortion clinics and kill
abortionists.
In addition to everything thatthey're doing being immoral,
ungodly and unwise, they're alsofocusing on the application and
losing sight of the principle,where the principle is no human
(31:05):
is supposed to kill anotherhuman, and somehow they've lost
sight of that.
But I think, rather thanlooking to, oh, there's this
person in the pro-life movementand it's a leader there and
that's the one we should look toas a hero.
I think it's more.
You know what about the mothersin very difficult circumstances
(31:26):
who, when everyone around themand the culture is saying you
should get an abortion, say no,I'm going to have my child,
regardless of the circumstances.
This is a life that God hasgiven me to take care of and I'm
going to.
That's, in my mind, heroic.
We can think of doctors andother medical professionals who
take their stand for life.
(31:46):
When the insurance companies orthe hospitals or their fellow
doctors or even their patientsare pushing them to do things
that are not properly respectfulof God's gift of life, they say
no no matter what it costs meprofessionally or financially or
whatever.
I'm going to do the right thingand they're willing to stand up
for that, and I think those arepeople that we can call heroes,
(32:09):
and the rare politician who isconsistently pro-life, who
remains that works to advancethe cause of life even when the
political winds are blowing theopposite direction.
We're going to need more andmore of those these days,
because it seems that politicalwinds are blowing the opposite
direction.
We're going to need more andmore of those these days,
because it seems that politicalwinds are blowing the wrong
direction a lot.
(32:30):
What Jeff's describing reallyare people of unique character
who are willing to sacrificesomething bigger, something
better.
Maybe that the world offers andsacrifices that in favor of a
higher principle of thinkingmore of others and of themselves
.
When I was thinking of thispart of this, I thought, well, I
(32:50):
can't invoke any people, namesof people who are living,
because that's awkward.
There's one fellow who died anumber of years ago already, Tom
Marzen.
Tom Marzen was an attorney whoserved on some presidential
committees and stuff like that,but very pro-life, and I think
Tom could have made much moremoney in his field.
(33:11):
But what made Tom unique is Tomwas one of those people that
any of us could have called.
He never lost himself in thepart.
He had this high position.
He was very admired on prettymuch all sides of an issue but
very sacrificially just said youknow, I am going to stand for
what's right, and I alwaysremember he had this kind of
(33:35):
playing down to earth way oftalking about things.
He didn't get lost in theverbiage of scholarly brilliance
as he had, and those are thekinds of people that I admire.
So, like Jess says, when wehave mothers who say, I am not
going to take the life of mychild.
Even though it would be anadvantage for me by worldly
(33:58):
standards, I'm not going to doit.
Why?
Because there is somethinghigher that I stand for, and the
same with people who say youknow, I could make a lot more
money doing all sorts of otherthings, being involved in other
industries.
But there's something a lothigher.
Those are heroes, and a lot oftimes you just have to be
content with admiring heroes whoother people aren't going to
(34:21):
share your appreciation for.
Christa Potratz (34:30):
Yeah Well, thank you both for this
discussion today.
Really, I mean, I was justsitting here nodding a lot
because I really enjoyed it andit just really gave me a lot to
think about too in the contextof heroes, and so we hope
everyone else enjoyed it as well, and if you have any questions
on this topic or any others, youcan reach us at
lifechallengesus, and we lookforward to having you back next
(34:51):
time.
Thanks a lot, bye.
Paul Snamiska (34:54):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of
the Life Challenges podcast fromChristian Life Resources.
Please consider subscribing tothis podcast, giving us a review
wherever you access it andsharing it with friends.
We're sure you have questionson today's topic or other life
issues.
Our goal is to help you throughthese tough topics and we want
you to know we're here to help.
(35:16):
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
suggestions for future episodes,at lifechallengesus or email us
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In addition to the podcasts, weinclude other valuable
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(35:37):
For more about our parentorganization, please visit
ChristianLifeResourcescom.
May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge.
On today's episode doing all sorts of other
things, being involved in otherindustries.
But there's something a lothigher.
Those are heroes, and a lot oftimes you just have to be
content with admiring heroes whoother people aren't going to
share your appreciation for.
Paul Snamiska (00:38):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources.
People today face manyopportunities and struggles when
it comes to issues of life anddeath, marriage and family,
health and science.
We're here to bring a freshbiblical perspective to these
issues and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz (01:03):
Hi and welcome back.
I'm Krista Potratz, and I'mhere today with pastors Bob
Fleischman and Jeff Samuelson,and today we're going to talk
about heroes.
We want to talk about heroes inthe biblical context today, but
also just how it relates to ourlife and then as well as life
(01:24):
challenges and the pro-lifetopics that we cover too, and so
just really wanted to startmaybe on just defining what a
hero is, maybe both just in ourmodern culture and maybe
biblically as well too.
Bob Fleischmann (01:44):
Well, first of all, in culture a hero seems to
rise to the surface asexemplifying everything we want
for that.
That's why, for example, in thepro-life movement I remember
the first time and I don'tremember which year that was,
but there was the shooting of anabortionist and there were some
(02:04):
who called him a hero forhaving done that and others, and
myself included, deplored it.
So sometimes it has to doideologically where you're
positioned, but heroes reallyare just exemplify kind of a
high ideal in our secularculture.
There's a tendency to just thinkwell, a hero is somebody who's
(02:27):
done something I really like.
That I think maybe I would wantto do if I were in that
situation.
Sometimes hero is more just.
You know, wow, this is somebodywho's just really good at what
he does.
You know, particularly not somuch today, but in earlier ages
great warrior, regardless ofwhether he was a good person or
not, would just be well, he's ahero.
(02:48):
But there's really should be alot more nuance to it, because
if we're really going to betalking about heroes in the
sense of these are people thatwe look up to, these are good
examples for us.
We need to define the term, orat least understand it, in such
a way that we're not holding upthings or people that shouldn't
(03:09):
be held up for us and that we'reimportant.
Or why do we kind of feel likewe maybe even need heroes to do
the right thing when it involvesrisk to them?
So we need people who have theguts to do the right things at
(03:50):
the right times and for theright reasons, even when there
is risk involved.
And I think that aspect of riskis really kind of a key thing
when we're talking about being ahero.
Doing the right thing justdoesn't cost you anything.
Well, that's great that you didthe right thing, but we don't
really see anything particularlyheroic in that, and so, in the
(04:10):
first sense, we need thembecause they do things that
other people aren't willing todo, but in a secondary sense, we
need them for examples.
We need them for encouragements, things that we ourselves can
look to, and particularly, Ithink, things that we can point
our children to successivegenerations and say this is what
the good person looks like,this is what it means to hold on
(04:32):
to something and be willing topay the price for it.
One of the things I did inprepping for today's podcast was
I went into the NIV and I saidyou know, show me every place in
the Bible that uses the wordhero and it doesn't show up at
all in the New Testament, it'sonly in the Old Testament and
(04:52):
it's only in seven verses and in, I believe, six of the seven or
five of the seven, it uses thesame word and in all of those
instances, well, the word that'sused is tied closely to the
word strength.
In other words, they were knownfor strong, being strong,
courageous and, quite honestly,I like the King James
(05:16):
translation of being renowned.
In other words, they were knownfor this, Like, for example,
the first use of the word iswith the Nephilim in the Old
Testament and they were calledheroes and the King James
Version says that they wereactually people.
They were known for beingstrong, known for being mighty,
(05:36):
those kinds of things.
And these were people too right,pre-Noah, right, Yep, and then
it also is used after the floodto describe some different
people who are known for beinglike, for example, goliath.
When they found out their herowas dead is what the passage
says.
And yeah, the fellow was dead,but really hero, I just think,
(06:00):
is a poor translation in the OldTestament, because it's also
the word hero is used todescribe King David in one of
the Psalms.
The interesting thing is is, Ithought, well, first of all,
what's the Hebrew word?
It's not the same Hebrew wordas translated as Hebrew for
Nephilim or for Goliath.
But also what was interestingis that the King James Version
(06:24):
basically said he was somethingon the order of the sweetest of
the psalmist.
In other words, when you lookedat the etymology of the Hebrew
word used and it really was kindof an accentuation of all that
is all that is.
(06:47):
So, for example, for theNephilim and for Goliath, it was
emphasis of them being strong,mighty, the champion who was
going to do everything.
In the example of David.
It was just the melodic.
He wrote the most beautifulpsalms and that's how the word
is used.
Then, when you slip over intothe New Testament, it's never
used.
What's the predominant word inthe New Testament?
And it's the word what's thepredominant word in the New
Testament?
And it's the word that Jeffjust touched on.
(07:07):
And that is example.
And I think that when we wantto think of the word hero as
Christians, first of allremember context.
The world's context of a herois someone who's making the
world a better place.
But when we talk about heroesof faith and so forth, we're
(07:28):
talking about people whoexemplify.
And perhaps you know the bestexample is where we're told in
Scripture Christ suffered foryou, leaving you an example that
you should follow in his steps,which has always been like the
(08:00):
marching orders for me in tryingto show kindness and they're
able to distinguish them fromapplications, even while they
make brave and perhaps costlyapplications of those principles
.
And this is part of whatdistinguishes a hero from
everybody else.
Talk about Christian martyrs.
A true Christian martyrrecognizes that the principle is
(08:24):
that you always remain faithfulto Christ no matter what, and
the application of thatprinciple might mean that you're
going to put your life at riskbecause you're going to stay
faithful and somebody'sthreatened you if you do that
and you may lose your life as aresult of that.
But a false martyr and therewere lots of these throughout
(08:45):
the history of the Christianchurch, particularly when you
got into about the third orfourth or fourth or fifth
centuries and so false martyrlashes onto the application and
seeks or even incitespersecution and possible death.
Well, this is what a martyrdoes die for their faith and
they claim it's all for Jesus.
(09:05):
But at the best they'reconfused.
At worst they're just doing itfor their own reasons.
They've lost sight of thatprinciple which is staying true
to Christ, and confused it there.
Another example would be inwartime.
The wartime hero recognizesthat the principle is to fight
as effectively as possible toprotect the people important to
(09:27):
him and to achieve whateverobjective is there.
The application of thatprinciple is being that he's
going to put his entire life atrisk in order to do this.
The coward looks at theapplication and says I want
nothing to do with that, andrejects the principle behind it.
And so I think we can applythis to all sorts of different
(09:51):
things, and that's why theprinciple of the idea of an
example works in there so much,because what makes this person
an example?
This is somebody who's got thispure sense of the principle
behind it and is not onlywilling to do the right thing,
is willing to do the right thingno matter what it costs.
One of the challenges when Ilooked at this topic is the
(10:12):
first question I started askingmyself is okay, you know, bob,
who are your heroes?
asking myself is okay, you know,bob, who are your heroes, and
other than Gordon Lightfoot no,I'm sorry, nobody appreciates my
taste in music Never understoodthat, but the reality was I
realized I had no heroes in theway the world of stands.
(10:34):
Heroes I have, people who arejust incredible examples of
faith that I not only—it'sprobably a combination of envy
and aspire when I was listeningto Jeff talk about you know the
people who are doing things thatyou can't do.
(10:55):
I mean, I have a whole longlist of people like that, that
people who you know are—peoplesay, well, you know, I could
never be a missionary in Africa.
You know I could never do that.
And I'm thinking, shoot, Icouldn't be a missionary in
southern United States.
They got snakes down there andthey got—.
I mean there are just differentthings that people do that you
(11:18):
can't do, and I admire that.
I genuinely admire that.
Somebody asked me once whatwould your autobiography look
like, and I said well, myautobiography would actually be
multiple chapters and everychapter devoted to a person that
has touched me in life for goodor bad.
I mean, you know, not everycontact in life was a positive
(11:42):
experience, but the point is isthat there's a ton of chapters
that would be devoted to peoplewho were incredible examples.
You too, I mean.
In many ways, both of youdemonstrate characteristics that
I long for and I'm trying tolearn them and I keep studying,
and I think you know the problemis, I was very interested
(12:04):
during the time that MotherTeresa lived and then the
reaction when Mother Teresa diedand then the reaction when her
book came out.
You know, because when her bookcame out, it crushed a lot of
people because she expresseddoubts about her faith.
The Bible passage says yes, lord, I do believe.
(12:25):
Help me overcome my unbelief.
How many times have we said,hey, that describes me?
It's kind of like why do weidentify so well with Peter and
Paul when Paul says the goodthat I would do, that I do not,
the evil.
I would not do that.
I keep on doing and we're goinghey, that's me, or Peter, you
know, stepping out of the boat.
God, I'll walk on water for you.
(12:45):
And then, all of a sudden, youstart looking at the waves, you
start sinking.
That's me, you know.
We see ourselves so often inthat.
And so when Mother Teresa, whofor some odd reason they all
thought she was this almost likeperfect personification of a
saint in life, demonstrated shewas the perfect personification
(13:07):
of every other human being.
You know, there were times ofgreat faith and great sacrifice,
great kindness worth imitatingby all of us, and there were
times where she was incrediblyhuman and she showed that.
And I think when we begin tosee that in our heroes, in our
(13:27):
examples, I think we begin toget the flavor of what Scripture
talks about.
Christa Potratz (13:32):
I think that's true too, because I also was
thinking about my heroes as well, and I could think of heroes
that I had had for a shortperiod of time, but then it
changed a little bit, and so Iwas, on this too, like, okay,
well, why did it change?
Some of it was realizing thatthese people that I had looked
(13:53):
up to or thought of as heroeswere not perfect.
Right, because heroes tend toshow their flaws at some point
too, and even just thinkingabout, like comic book heroes I
mean, superman had hiskryptonite I mean there were
weaknesses with heroes, and Iguess that makes for good movies
(14:15):
and stuff too.
But you know just this ideathat our heroes, that there are
holes in that, and even withbiblical heroes too, like what
you were saying just about Peterand Paul too, and how, in some
ways, you look up to thosepeople because they do have
(14:35):
weaknesses, like you have aswell, because they do have
weaknesses, like you have aswell.
Bob Fleischmann (14:39):
I also was asking, okay, who have been my
heroes?
And I just realized it's easier, at least if you're thinking of
the big characters of thingsand not just the people you know
in your own life.
It's a lot easier to find themin history than in current
events because it's a fixedquantity there and you don't
have to worry about well, if Icall him a hero today, what's he
(14:59):
going to do tomorrow?
And so I was thinking, okay,set aside all the people in the
Bible for now, because that's agiven, we can say that I can
look theologically andreligiously to people like
Martin Luther and MartinChemnitz, people who stood on
(15:20):
their principles, andparticularly Luther's great.
Here I stand, I can do no otherspeech.
But then there are figures likeWilliam Wilberforce, out of
history, a British politicianwas really in many ways the key
man in making sure that Britainoutlawed the slave trade, which
(15:43):
had been a huge moneymaker forBritain.
And just an amazing story.
A strong Christian and thatinformed and inspired everything
he did.
And he's just the kind of personyou say, well, yeah, I would
like to be like that.
If I were a politician, that'sthe kind of man I would look up
(16:04):
to.
And then there are people likeAbraham Lincoln, and he's always
been a bit of a personal heroto me.
I feel more of a connectionwith him.
But what you learn about him,he had flaws.
He considered himself aChristian but he wasn't much of
a churchgoer.
He knew his Bible.
He quoted the Bible, the thingI was talking about, principles.
(16:25):
He understood the principlePeople shouldn't be enslaved,
and he was willing to do thingsin order to see that come true,
even when it wasn't politicallyadvantageous to him.
He was able to do that and heachieved a whole lot and he paid
the price for it.
I'm sure his wife would havepreferred he hadn't been quite
so out front with so many thingsthere.
(16:48):
And there's so many people likethat if you look for them.
I have to admit there wassomebody else I was thinking of,
as you know, a really goodexample of humble heroes Frodo
and Sam from the Lord of theRings.
It's just like, yeah, that'sheroism for you.
They know what they have to do.
They do it no matter the costand without losing who they are
(17:11):
in the process.
Now I'm going to give you somereal practical examples of what
you guys are talking about withheroes who are flawed.
One of the things and it mademe think of it when Jeff was
talking about history is an easyplace.
I think pretty much everybodyknows that.
I'm a big history buff, do alot of reading on history and
(17:33):
I'm always shattered.
Sometimes I'll pick up a bookon history and I'm all eager to
read it and all of a sudden youread all these other stories you
weren't aware that came up.
Well, in pro-life work we lookfor heroes who stand on
principle and I'll give you avery practical example.
In the early 90s Dr BernardNathanson, who was very involved
(17:54):
in the pro-abortion movementlate 60s, early 70s, ran an
abortion clinic, was veryinvolved in the pro-abortion
movement late 60s, early 70s,ran an abortion clinic and then
he became a pro-life convert,which, of course, becomes a hero
.
That's how you become a hero.
I mean, he just saw the errorof his ways, basically publicly
disavowed his allegiances and hecame out with two videos in
(18:16):
which he had showed what happensin an abortion.
They were horrible videos towatch and everything Noteworthy
was in the second video.
It was narrated by none otherthan Charlton Heston who played
Moses and the voice of God inthe Ten Commandments, and just
really big deal.
So in 1995, we're getting readyfor our national convention, so
(18:39):
we decide we're going to getCharlton Heston.
So I had to work with somedonors on it and work with
Heston's office.
Long and short of it is,charlton Heston was our main
speaker for a convention we wereholding in Michigan.
It was the first time we everhad a high-profile speaker of
(18:59):
that caliber.
We sold out the number ofpeople we could have at the
convention.
Everything was going great,people we could have at the
convention, everything was goinggreat.
So it's like a week before theconvention and one of the staff
people said well, you know,heston's biography just came out
, autobiography, and in it heswears, it's like what, and he's
retelling stories from theCecil B DeMille film of Ten
(19:23):
Commandments and it involvedhorrible language and things.
And then it was revealed thathe also sent money on occasion
to support Planned Parenthood.
And this is our main speaker.
So then he's not only our mainspeaker.
So you know we kind of sit instaff meeting, we're going.
Well, maybe nobody will readthe book yet before the
(19:43):
convention so we get to theconvention.
So what does he do?
First of all, when he comes,he's an elderly man, so he is
not Moses from the TenCommandments anymore.
And I still remember himshuffling out and one of our
staff people made a joke about Ihave kind of a high-pitched
voice.
And so he always said here I am, hi everybody, here's Charlton
(20:06):
Heston, and then of course thevoice of God.
You know, heston comes out,he's crouched over a little bit.
He actually gets behind thepodium, stands straight up and
just that voice, booming voice.
But what does he do?
In the course of his speech,which was a pre-written speech,
he probably gave a hundred times.
He swore a couple of times inthe speech at the audience of
(20:26):
Christian Life Resources and ofcourse then the letters would
come and everything.
But it does raise the question.
You know, we admired him forthe work he had done on the
narration of that second video,but I couldn't control all the
other things he had done.
I wish he hadn't sworn, I wishhe hadn't given money to an
organization like PlannedParenthood.
(20:46):
But it was just the reality.
And there are other stories ofspeakers in our past, some of
whom were wells.
You admired them.
You had them speak and thensomething happens in the past
and comes up in their life andall of our heroes were tarnished
.
I would have liked to have theApostle Peter speak at one of
our conventions, but I don'tknow how I would have explained
(21:09):
how you could be lookingstraight at Jesus and you're
sinking in the lake.
How simple that should havebeen.
I think there's a lesson ofcaution, not only in how we
adopt an example, but caution inhow critical we want to be of
people who choose examples.
I admire Charlton Heston forbeing in a very liberal
(21:32):
environment and being willing tostand for pro-life.
Okay, that didn't meaneverything he had done was right
, and the same thing too.
You know there are people whoare going to admire any one of
the three of us for what we havedone, but we hope they don't
look at everything.
You know.
The psalmist said you know,don't hold the sins of my youth
(21:53):
against me.
Prior to recording, chris and Iwere talking about next week
having a high school friend comearound and we're going to do it
.
I've got a feeling he's goingto remember a couple of things
and I hope nobody else remembers.
It's things like that, you know, and that's because we're
dealing with flawed people, andthat's why, if you only want one
reliable example, it'll beJesus.
Christa Potratz (22:15):
Right, I think you know.
What Bob has really touched on,too is this idea of what
happens when our heroes fail usand we see their flaws and or we
see them fall a little bit too.
Bob Fleischmann (22:33):
When that happens, I think a first
question we want to askourselves is was it right to be
holding this person up as a heroin the first place?
Maybe some sports star orsomething like that?
It's like, wow, this guy isgreat and like, was he really?
Maybe I was just impressed bysomething, but maybe what I
thought was good wasn't actually.
But even when you get beyondthat it's the point that's been
(22:55):
made we recognize that ourheroes are human just as we are.
They may be better, they mayactually be holier than we are.
They may not be.
It may simply be that God hasplaced them into this particular
situation at this particulartime to do this particular thing
and they are heroic in the waythat they do that, but the rest
(23:18):
of their life it may be a mess.
Look at David he called a heroin the Bible, did many heroic
things, and yet look at thewhole thing with Bathsheba and
Uriah Definitely had his flawsthere.
And we can look at Abraham andwe can look at all the disciples
and so many others in Scriptureand see the same thing.
So one thing we remember isthat weaknesses, even one-time
(23:42):
failures, don't necessarily undoanything about that person's
heroism.
They certainly don't destroythe principles that gave birth
to that heroism either.
Christa Potratz (23:55):
When I was thinking about biblical heroes
too and kind of like just howBob was saying too, with people
like Peter and you see peoplethat struggled but then rose
above it, and so it's like yousee their flaws but then maybe
they rise above it.
But one that I have been justthinking about recently is Rahab
(24:19):
and how just her past and justthe things that maybe must have
been going through her mind oryou know, I mean, was she
helping the spies because shejust really didn't have hope
anymore, or did she reallybelieve to and then just.
But I mean, you can see thegrowth in that and when you can
(24:43):
rise above your circumstancestoo just gives such motivation,
I think, for other people too.
Bob Fleischmann (24:52):
We have a problem in our society today
where people are flipping it.
They are taking the flaws ofpeople and they are elevating
those as things that are heroicthings that are heroic.
I think, for example, whenBruce Jenner decided that he was
going to be Caitlyn, all sortsof people came out and talked
about how heroic that was andall sorts of similar things,
(25:15):
with people coming out ashomosexuals and things like this
oh, this was such a hero and no, it's not.
Because what they're doingisn't good.
It's self-centered, notother-centered.
The only principle there is dowhat's right by you.
People will like the example ofthat, because that encourages
(25:36):
them to do what's right by them.
But as Christians, we can'thold out as heroes people who
are only really serving theirown desires and that are
obviously doing things that arecontrary to God's will.
This morning in my morningreadings, I was looking at the
(25:56):
list of the people who weregoing to be given the Medal of
Honor today in a White Houseproceeding, and the names that
you hear in the media probablythe most often is like Liz
Cheney, so that's always comingup and of course the media is
getting behind it because shewas Republican.
This is the Democraticpresident going to give her the
(26:17):
Medal of Honor for the January6th hearings and so forth and,
quite honestly, that's neitherhere nor there.
For me, that's politics andstuff.
So I'm going down the list andI run across Eleanor Smeal and
I'm going that name.
I know I remember it back anumber of years ago, but she was
head of the NationalOrganization of Women.
(26:38):
She was a big, major advocatein abortion rights and so forth,
and I'm looking at this and I'mgoing.
So this is what the presidentof our nation is going to give
the Medal of Honor, which iskind of like civilian heroes.
That's really what it is.
And, of course, the millions ofthoughts that run through my
(26:59):
mind.
You know, I'm looking at thatand I'm going when you're living
for heaven on earth, whenyou're living for this is the
way I want everything to be.
Maybe that's it In their visionof heaven on earth women should
be able to kill their offspring.
Then these kinds of people getthe alarms, they get the
(27:23):
accolades, and I think we haveto remember why people have the
different heroes.
And I think to myself whatmakes a sports hero Well, we've
had a past speaker at one of ourCLR conferences, conventions
was Bart Starr.
Why was Bart Starr here?
Quite honestly, you know, bartStarr always was a personal
(27:45):
sports hero of mine.
Honestly, bart Starr always wasa personal sports hero of mine,
and the reason I liked BartStarr, quite honestly, was
(28:09):
Rawhide Boys Ranch, which theyboasted.
An 86% rate of them never goingback into crime, which is the
secular rate, was like 12% orsome ridiculously low average.
And Rawhide was my template forwhen I started New Beginnings,
the home for mothers, and so Ithought, well, if Bart Starr was
(28:30):
behind it, I'd like to get kindof behind it.
Well then, on top of that, bartand Cherry Starr lost a son
from drug overdose and I'vealways been concerned about
substance abuse and fightingthat.
So you know, he just became alogical one to do it and I
figured I didn't know where hewas on abortion and positions
like that.
But I so you know, he justbecame a logical one to do it
and I figured I didn't knowwhere he was on abortion and
positions like that.
(28:51):
But I figured, you know, if hedoesn't like our position he'll
just say no when we ask him.
And instead he said yes.
So I was all excited.
But then again, like CharltonHeston, his speech was probably
the same speech he gave lastnight at the JC's meeting and
the night before at the Knightsof Columbus and the nights
before, you know, just like that.
(29:12):
So we tend to, even with sportsstars, we've got to ask
ourselves why do we pick them?
I don't know how you guys arenow, but when I'm watching these
, you know, I'm looking atcharacter that becomes, you know
, a sports hero who's justincredible at their sport isn't
enough for me anymore.
I'm looking for character.
(29:32):
And then, of course you take arisk because again, characters
in an imperfect world meanthere's going to be character
flaws.
But I do look at character andI admire character.
I look at the kicker for theKansas City Chiefs, strong
(29:54):
Christian stands for traditionalfamily, which of course is not
popular nowadays.
And when they interviewed thequarterback Mahomes for how do
you feel about that?
Mahomes said I don't agree withall of his positions but I
admire him.
Well, if I were the quarterbackfor the Kansas City Chiefs, I
(30:15):
admire him for kicking fieldgoals and stuff, getting the
ball where it's supposed to go.
So you've got to remember thatyou're dealing in some pretty
rocky territory.
Christa Potratz (30:27):
Well, as we kind of bring it together then
too, when we were thinking, then, of pro-life, who can our
pro-life heroes be, and how canwe identify them in the context
of marriage and family too?
Bob Fleischmann (30:44):
them in the context of marriage and family
too.
Oh, I think Bob alluded to thisearlier that some we do not call
heroes are the people who blowup abortion clinics and kill
abortionists.
In addition to everything thatthey're doing being immoral,
ungodly and unwise, they're alsofocusing on the application and
losing sight of the principle,where the principle is no human
(31:05):
is supposed to kill anotherhuman, and somehow they've lost
sight of that.
But I think, rather thanlooking to, oh, there's this
person in the pro-life movementand it's a leader there and
that's the one we should look toas a hero.
I think it's more.
You know what about the mothersin very difficult circumstances
(31:26):
who, when everyone around themand the culture is saying you
should get an abortion, say no,I'm going to have my child,
regardless of the circumstances.
This is a life that God hasgiven me to take care of and I'm
going to.
That's, in my mind, heroic.
We can think of doctors andother medical professionals who
take their stand for life.
(31:46):
When the insurance companies orthe hospitals or their fellow
doctors or even their patientsare pushing them to do things
that are not properly respectfulof God's gift of life, they say
no no matter what it costs meprofessionally or financially or
whatever.
I'm going to do the right thingand they're willing to stand up
for that, and I think those arepeople that we can call heroes,
(32:09):
and the rare politician who isconsistently pro-life, who
remains that works to advancethe cause of life even when the
political winds are blowing theopposite direction.
We're going to need more andmore of those these days,
because it seems that politicalwinds are blowing the opposite
direction.
We're going to need more andmore of those these days,
because it seems that politicalwinds are blowing the wrong
direction a lot.
(32:30):
What Jeff's describing reallyare people of unique character
who are willing to sacrificesomething bigger, something
better.
Maybe that the world offers andsacrifices that in favor of a
higher principle of thinkingmore of others and of themselves
.
When I was thinking of thispart of this, I thought, well, I
(32:50):
can't invoke any people, namesof people who are living,
because that's awkward.
There's one fellow who died anumber of years ago already, Tom
Marzen.
Tom Marzen was an attorney whoserved on some presidential
committees and stuff like that,but very pro-life, and I think
Tom could have made much moremoney in his field.
(33:11):
But what made Tom unique is Tomwas one of those people that
any of us could have called.
He never lost himself in thepart.
He had this high position.
He was very admired on prettymuch all sides of an issue but
very sacrificially just said youknow, I am going to stand for
what's right, and I alwaysremember he had this kind of
(33:35):
playing down to earth way oftalking about things.
He didn't get lost in theverbiage of scholarly brilliance
as he had, and those are thekinds of people that I admire.
So, like Jess says, when wehave mothers who say, I am not
going to take the life of mychild.
Even though it would be anadvantage for me by worldly
(33:58):
standards, I'm not going to doit.
Why?
Because there is somethinghigher that I stand for, and the
same with people who say youknow, I could make a lot more
money doing all sorts of otherthings, being involved in other
industries.
But there's something a lothigher.
Those are heroes, and a lot oftimes you just have to be
content with admiring heroes whoother people aren't going to
(34:21):
share your appreciation for.
Christa Potratz (34:30):
Yeah Well, thank you both for this
discussion today.
Really, I mean, I was justsitting here nodding a lot
because I really enjoyed it andit just really gave me a lot to
think about too in the contextof heroes, and so we hope
everyone else enjoyed it as well, and if you have any questions
on this topic or any others, youcan reach us at
lifechallengesus, and we lookforward to having you back next
(34:51):
time.
Thanks a lot, bye.
Paul Snamiska (34:54):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of
the Life Challenges podcast fromChristian Life Resources.
Please consider subscribing tothis podcast, giving us a review
wherever you access it andsharing it with friends.
We're sure you have questionson today's topic or other life
issues.
Our goal is to help you throughthese tough topics and we want
you to know we're here to help.
(35:16):
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
suggestions for future episodes,at lifechallengesus or email us
at podcast atchristianliferesourcescom.
In addition to the podcasts, weinclude other valuable
information at lifechallengesus,so be sure to check it out.
(35:37):
For more about our parentorganization, please visit
ChristianLifeResourcescom.
May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge.
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