July 29, 2025 • 32 mins
What does it look like to practice Christianity in a country where the government controls religious expression? Jolie, a Chinese Christian, takes us behind the scenes of faith life in modern China, revealing a fascinating world where state churches require government-approved sermons and where house churches operate in a delicate balance with authorities.
Raised in China and introduced to Christianity at age eight, Jolie initially viewed God as "almost like a genie" - someone to pray to only when she needed something. It wasn't until facing major life disappointments and a near-death experience that her faith transformed into a genuine relationship with Christ. Her journey eventually led her to Wisconsin Lutheran College in America before returning to her homeland with a deeper understanding of biblical teaching.
Jolie offers rare insights into how Chinese Christians navigate cultural pressures in a society obsessed with worldly success. She explains her countercultural decision to stay home with her children in a country where career advancement is paramount and where even having more than one child - despite the relaxation of the one-child policy in 2016 - remains uncommon. "They've developed this culture where both grandparents take care of this one grandchild, and then the parents will be working," she explains. "A lot of my other friends feel like even one child is too much because they want to make sure they have enough time and energy for their career."
The conversation explores fascinating aspects of Chinese culture, from the challenges of eldercare in a society with strong filial piety values to the unexpected ways Christianity persists and even thrives under restrictions. For anyone interested in global Christianity, family dynamics in different cultures, or the resilience of faith under challenging circumstances, this episode provides thoughtful perspective on how believers maintain their convictions while navigating complex cultural and political realities.
Have questions about faith, family, or other life challenges? Connect with us at lifechallenges.us or email podcast@christianliferesources.com to join the conversation.
Find strength and courage in your faith at this year’s FEARLESS FAITH Conference. Inspired by Joshua 1:9, “Be strong and courageous,” join us Saturday, September 13, at Kettle Moraine Lutheran High School in Jackson, Wisconsin, for presentations on navigating life’s storms, understanding God’s peace, and engaging in crucial conversations about euthanasia, anorexia, abortion, prenatal genetic testing, and more. Hear powerful journeys of faith through loss and hope. Don’t miss this empowering event! $50 in person or $40 virtual. Register now: https://christianliferesources.com/resources/events/2025-conference/
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Jolie (00:19):
On today's episode.
They've developed this culturewhere both grandparents will be
taking care of this onegrandchild, and then the parents
will be working and so, andthen they yeah, they just become
very used to that.
So, it's hard for them to thinkthat we can have another one.
So a lot of my friends they myChristian friends I think
(00:41):
they're open to it.
But a lot of my other friendsthey feel like even one child is
too much because they want tomake sure they have enough time
and energy for their career.
So some of my friends they'renot even thinking about having
kids or thinking like it mightbe a burden.
Paul Snamiska (00:59):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources.
People today face manyopportunities and struggles when
it comes to issues of life anddeath, marriage and family,
health and science.
We're here to bring a freshbiblical perspective to these
issues and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz (01:33):
Hi and welcome back.
I'm Krista Potrat and I'mjoined today by pastors Bob
Fleischman and Jeff Samuelson,and today we have a special
guest with us.
Today we have Jolie joining usand Jolie today is going to talk
about China.
Jolie and Bob go way back hereand we'll kind of explain that
connection here soon, but wereally wanted to ask questions,
(01:55):
kind of know what's going onwith China as it relates to life
issues and things that we'reinterested with the podcast.
So welcome Jolie.
Can you tell us a little bitabout yourself and your
connection with Bob?
Jolie (02:12):
My name is Jolie.
I was born and raised in China.
I got to know about Jesus whenI was around eight, so my mom
was the one who introducedChristianity to me.
That's also when she startedgoing to church and then.
So we started attendinggovernment churches that are
more regulated and then thegovernment has authority over it
(02:34):
.
But we do have somewhat freedomto hear about the gospel and to
study the Bible.
But back then I think I, or bothof us, didn't really understand
what it meant to be a Christian.
So we felt like God was morelike almost like a genie, so we
pray when we need something andnot so much really digging to
(02:55):
His Word.
And then we had to kind ofchange that mindset when I kind
of did really bad on my collegeentrance exam, when it was a
really important exam, kind ofTo us it decides my future, like
if I did well then I could goto a good college, which means
good career and good future.
(03:17):
But then instead I did very badunexpectedly.
So we had to rethink what itmeant to really follow God and
to be a Christian even whenthings don't go our way.
And then after that I did getinto a college, but it wasn't
very good, so we were stilldisappointed.
(03:38):
But then I also had an accident.
I had a very severe allergicreaction where I just passed out
.
And then during that incidentmy mom prayed really hard and I
heard her prayer and I was ableto just really be sure that God
does exist and he cares moreabout my success.
(03:59):
And following Him is not justhaving Him do what I want, but
to follow his will.
And so that shift our focus tobeing a Christian and I got
baptized a week after.
So when I was in college I alsogot connected with some Wells
teachers.
So in junior year of college inChina I transferred to WLC and
(04:22):
that's when I got connected withPastor Bob.
Bob Fleischmann (04:25):
And the rest is history.
Christa Potratz (04:27):
Well, thank you for sharing that.
I think too.
When you talk about just thatmindset using prayer in hopes
that your prayers get answered,but then realizing just how
different it is to actuallyfollow Jesus I think that can
really resonate with a lot ofpeople.
Do you find that most people inChina do kind of think that can
really resonate with a lot ofpeople?
Do you find that most people inChina do kind of think that way
(04:47):
?
Jolie (04:48):
I think a lot of my Christian friends.
They kind of have to battlethrough this as well, because
China is very success-driven andvery rat racing.
So we kind of we were allraised in this culture where we
have to really depend onourselves, we have to work hard
and to get results and we haveto succeed and if we don't then
there's no hope.
So a lot of us are raised inthis mindset.
(05:11):
So even becoming a Christian,we have to get adjusted to.
Okay, worldly success is notthe most important and God is
more than what this world canoffer.
Bob Fleischmann (05:22):
Did you live in Shanghai all of your life or in
the area of Shanghai?
Jolie (05:27):
I live in Hangzhou, which is two hours away from Shanghai
.
It's not very far.
Bob Fleischmann (05:31):
The other thing I was wondering is I think
probably some people might havebeen surprised to hear that
China has a state church.
How does that work?
It's a completely foreignconcept to us in the States.
Jolie (05:43):
I think China they want to.
They say that we have religiousfreedom, so they do establish
these churches.
We call them three-self church.
I don't remember what thethree-self stands for, but one
of them is self-propaganda, sowe don't accept foreign help.
There's no foreigners in thesechurches.
(06:04):
And then the pastors they go tothese seminaries are approved
by the government and theirsermons have to be approved by
the government as well.
And on every three-self churchit says love your country, love
your religion.
So country goes ahead likecountry goes above the religion.
(06:24):
And then the other is to lovethe people.
Christa Potratz (06:27):
My family and I took a trip to China this was
several years ago and our tourguide my mom noticed just kept
saying you know, oh, this is thebiggest.
You know whatever in China,this is the best in China and
everything I mean everything wasabout China.
I mean it wasn't ever likeoutside of China, like this is
(06:48):
the biggest in the world, orthis is the biggest in Asia, or
whatever.
It was all just the best ofChina and it just really I like
to hear you talking too.
Just that whole idea of likecountry coming first, I think is
a very big part of Chineseculture.
Jeff Samelson (07:06):
One of the things that's, I hope, beneficial for
our American and other friends,listening to your description of
the state church there, is thatthat's kind of the extreme,
easy to identify example ofstate control of a church.
I mean, you're able to look atthat and say but at the same
time, that has existedthroughout history in so many
(07:28):
different ways.
It's just often a little bitmore subtle.
For instance, I doubt that theleaders of your country are
going to say well, we'reChristians and that's why we
should be in charge of thechurch.
Many places in Europe, forinstance in the Middle Ages or
whatever, I am the preeminentChristian as the king of this
country and therefore I shouldalso be in charge of the church
and tell it what to do and thatkind of thing.
(07:50):
But it's in a bit more raw sensethe way that you're describing
it, and I think it's helpful,because there are a lot of
Americans and others who arekind of thinking well, I don't
like the way things are rightnow.
The church should have morecontrol over things.
And well, how does that happen?
Well, that means we get thechurch into the government, but
(08:13):
that also means that thegovernment gets into the church.
Eventually, that balance comesout in a way that you don't
particularly like, and it's goodto have the reminder that it
can be very different.
Christa Potratz (08:26):
So after you graduated Wisconsin Lutheran
College too, or I guess evenjust your college experience was
there anything that stood outto you about Christians here in
the US, or just the Christianculture here when you went to
college?
Jolie (08:45):
When I was in China there weren't.
So we actually, after we wentto government churches, we
realized that we're not reallystudying much about the Bible,
we're not learning much.
So my mom was introduced to ahouse church later on and so we
started attending house churcheswhere the government is aware,
(09:05):
but then they don't.
You know, we don't have to gettheir approval in terms of
sermon or worship and whateverwe do.
So then I feel like that wasvery helpful.
But when I went to Wisconsin andI feel like, first of all,
people have a lot of freedom interms of, you know, religious or
(09:29):
anything, or speech.
There's a lot of things we'renot really supposed to say in
China.
And then here people have a lotof freedom.
And then there are a lot ofdenominations, a lot of
different beliefs and differentways to interpret the Bible,
which, yeah, is kind of new tome, because when I was in China
we didn't have many resources.
So whatever we got, we kind ofjust studied from there and we
(09:53):
would discuss and see if it'strue according to the Bible, but
there's not much doctrineestablished.
So here I feel like at WLC, aspart of the requirement for
graduation, we need to take fourtheology courses and I feel
like it was very helpful for meto just have that more
systematic understanding ofdoctrine and the Bible and I
(10:17):
really appreciate that.
Christa Potratz (10:19):
Just even to when you mention house churches
in China, you said that thegovernment knows about the house
churches and different things.
Are those becoming more popularnow or not?
Jolie (10:34):
I'd like to think they're getting more popular because
the word is spreading.
I think we see a revival inChinese house churches and, like
I said, we don't have manyresources, so that's kind of one
of a big problem.
So there's a lot of also splitsin house churches where just
people have different views onthe Bible or a certain verse or
(10:56):
parts of the Bible.
But there are, I think, morechurches, house churches.
In general, we're not supposedto have more than 20 people
under the government regulation,so if there is a bigger one,
the government would intercedeand ask us to split into
different groups.
Bob Fleischmann (11:16):
Now, another thing that I remember you and I
talked about was that you'rereally not allowed to evangelize
or proselytize in China.
It isn't like, well, thisSunday we're going to work on a
big outreach effort.
You can't do that, whichpresents some unique challenges,
(11:37):
seeing how a primary call ofthe Christian community is to
reach out.
So right now you attend anon-denominational international
church, right, and it fallsunder all the restrictions and
everything that you've alwayshad.
Jolie (11:54):
So, is that a state church?
We're registered under thestate church as a Sunday school.
Okay.
Jeff Samelson (12:01):
Oh okay, Kind of turning Bob's observation into a
question On a personal level.
For you, or really for anyBible-believing, gospel-hoping
Christian, how easy is it toknow where the line is that you
have crossed or are about tocross when it comes to sharing
(12:26):
the news of Christ with somebody.
When you've just met somebody,you've just gotten close enough
to somebody to talk, theymention that they've got some
problem, or you just simply findout that they're not a believer
and you want to talk to themabout this or tell them this is
what God has to say.
How do you know where that lineis so you know whether you're
(12:47):
stepping over it or past it orwhatever?
Is that a hard thing to do?
Jolie (12:51):
I think we're pretty free in doing that if we're smart
about it.
So yeah, as a church it'sharder to do that.
But as a person, if I have afriend and a colleague, it's
pretty easy to talk about itover a lunch.
Or if we go out and we talkabout our problems and sharing
how I handle my problem, how Irely on God, it's pretty easy.
(13:14):
But as a church it's a lotharder.
Christa Potratz (13:20):
When you graduated college, did you go
back to China then?
Right?
Jolie (13:25):
away.
Yes, so I studied elementaryeducation in WRC and then for my
final student teaching, myprofessor actually got me a
student teaching position inShanghai, china, and that was
where I worked afterwards,because before I left they asked
for if I wanted to stay.
Christa Potratz (13:46):
So after graduation I went back there,
okay, so you got married and Iknow you have some children now
too, right, right.
And I guess where I'm kind ofgoing with that then is just
like the family life now inChina that you have and raising
your children in thatenvironment.
(14:06):
How is that going witheverything?
Jolie (14:12):
I think I might be a little different from my friends
.
So when I was in WSC I stayedwith some friends who took a
couple years off to stay withtheir children.
So I just felt reallyencouraged and I feel like I
want to do that with my children, because they're only so little
for such a short time.
I want to make sure that I amthere and I just can't imagine
(14:33):
me going to work full time andcoming back and still having
energy to be with them, toreally be present in their life.
So after I had my daughter, Imade the decision to resign and
to stay home with her, and Istill am.
I started homeschooling her twoyears ago, but none of this is
(14:53):
conventional in China.
I had to really convince myparents that it's okay that I
don't have a job right now.
I will go back to work.
Bob Fleischmann (15:03):
Did you get criticism at all from friends
who think you know when are yougoing to get out and work and
when are you going to get goingon this stuff?
Jolie (15:11):
I think most of my friends they understand.
They even kind of envy me fornot having to go to work.
Yeah, A lot of my friends.
They're trying to get a houseor buying cars for their
children and my husband is fromAmerica, so we don't really want
property in China or we're notreally investing in that, so we
(15:32):
don't have the pressure fromthat, which I think helps me to
make that decision of being ableto stay home and not having to
work all the time.
Bob Fleischmann (15:41):
Now we've talked about on this podcast on
occasion.
You know China's had theone-child policy and it's a
communist government, so it's awhole different kind of a makeup
than what we have here.
How has the one-child policymatter go in China?
How did it affect things, orwhat consequences do you see of
(16:04):
it in your experience there?
Jolie (16:06):
Most of my classmates are the only child in their family.
So I think growing up we justknew, we all, just you know,
there's only one kid in eachfamily, so we weren't really
taught that there is another way.
When I was in middle school Ihad a classmate who had two more
kids in their family and wewere all in awe.
(16:28):
We're like how come, whathappened?
How can you have three?
And she said they're very welloff so they were able to pay the
fine for breaking the law tohave three.
But it did cost a lot of money.
So we I don't think we were wefelt the impact of it.
(16:49):
You know we don't have siblingsto play with, but we do become
good friends with other kids inthe neighborhood.
So it didn't really affect meuntil, I think, later on, when I
was in college and then peopleasked me about it and, and I'm
realizing, there are somefriends whose parents have to go
through abortion or they haveto send their kids somewhere to
(17:12):
hide until it's safer to comeback.
So I have some friends who arelike that, who still kind of
hold grudges toward theirparents for sending them away,
but now more understanding thatthey kind of had to do that to
(17:39):
preserve their life, are having.
Jeff Samelson (17:42):
What's been reported is that that's not
working so well that they didtoo good a job of convincing
people that it was good to onlyhave one, if you're even going
to have any, I guess.
I'm just asking what you'veobserved about that.
Is that the correctunderstanding of things, or do
(18:02):
you have any stories to tellabout that?
Jolie (18:04):
you know the correct understanding of things, or do
you have any stories to tellabout that?
Before I got married, 2016 iswhen they started to come out
with the policy that if you,you're allowed to have two.
So I think people it's justbecause we're so used to having
one.
The policy has been there since1979.
So people are very used to it.
They've developed this culturewhere both grandparents will be
(18:26):
taking care of this onegrandchild and then the parents
will be working and so, and thenthey yeah, they just become
very used to that, so it's hardfor them to think that we can
have another one.
So a lot of my friends they myChristian friends, I think
they're open to it.
But a of my other friends theyfeel like even one child is too
(18:48):
much because they want to makesure they have enough time and
energy for their career.
So some of my friends they'renot even thinking about having
kids or thinking like it mightbe a burden.
And then I feel like China ourgovernment isn't too, so they
gave us this policy but there'snot much benefit in supporting
(19:11):
having more than one, Likethere's no extra benefit in
raising more children.
So people just feel like one isvery stressful already.
Why do we need two.
Yeah, so we haven't really seenan increase, I guess, at least
in the people around me.
Jeff Samelson (19:30):
As a Christian mother, do you feel any
obligation, or even just urge totry to convince your friends
who are skeptical that no, no,this is actually a good thing?
And if so, how do you do that?
Jolie (19:44):
I think if I talk with Christian friends it's a lot
easier because we're kind of onthe same page, but with friends
who are not Christian it's a lotharder.
I can try to tell them thatbecause for me I have my fear of
raising two children and thefinancial or whatever burden I
have.
But I also know that God haspromised that he will provide
(20:06):
and the kids.
He created them and then heloves them more than I can love
them.
So I have this hope andassurance of you know God will
take care of my kids.
But yeah, with my other friendsit's hard to convince them when
they're already so surroundedby this culture that you have to
(20:28):
always earn more.
It's never enough.
You have to do this and do that.
Christa Potratz (20:33):
You mentioned your Christian friend.
Do you feel like you have a lotof Christian friends in China?
How is that?
Jolie (20:39):
dynamic.
When I started attending theinternational church a lot of
friends came from there.
So one of my colleagues thatworked with me, she invited me
to that church.
And then their young adultfellowship and I just felt it
was a really good bonding thatwe could study the Bible
(21:00):
together.
And going on Sunday isdefinitely not enough for my
spiritual growth.
And then I think the first yearI worked really hard because of
some challenges and it was hardfor me to be accountable on
Bible reading and prayer life onmy own.
So to be able to havefellowship was very helpful.
(21:21):
So then most of my Christianfriends come from that church
and then there are some otherwealth friends who are still in
China or in Asia that we alsotalk once in a while.
Bob Fleischmann (21:36):
You mentioned about the culture and how, even
as the one-child policy waslifted, people just they've been
steeped in it.
Now you've got children thatyou're raising in China and I
know that you're controlling alot of it with homeschooling.
But where else would they beinfluenced?
Do you think in the culturethat just playing with their
(21:59):
friends, or something?
Jolie (22:00):
Yeah, because they're homeschooled they don't have
that many friends, but thefriends that they play with are
also our church friends andthey're kids who are also just
very like-minded.
So currently they're in aprotected bubble for now.
Currently they're in aprotected bubble for now.
Bob Fleischmann (22:21):
Well, how about at the end-of-life spectrum?
What is it like in China Caringfor the elderly when people are
sick?
Is there a high sense ofaccountability?
I know that we've always kindof learned that it was more
valuable to have a male childthan a female child.
Jolie (22:49):
The male child can care for the parents when the time
comes, and so forth.
How does that all play out inreality on their children?
And then for China in ourculture filial piety is very,
very highly valued.
So to show respect to theelders, to take care of your
parents, to make sure thatthey're well taken care of, so I
think most of it the burdenstill falls on the kids.
(23:13):
And then with our generation wehave the grandparents on both
sides and our own parents aswell, so they all kind of fall
under our care.
My parents are still living,grandparents have passed, but
for a lot of us we have like sixpeople to take care of or to
think about when we reach thatage.
(23:35):
And then there are some nursinghomes where you can.
You know the grandparents orour parents can go to, but it's
culturally.
People don't value them thatmuch.
Like the care is not very good.
And if you do send your parentsto nursing homes it means you
don't care for them.
So there's that connotation.
So nursing homes are not verypopular.
(23:56):
So it's a little bit difficult,because if you have multiple
kids, then if someone's notaround, then one of the children
can help take care of theparents.
But for us, yeah, if ourparents are sick, it's a lot
more difficult.
Christa Potratz (24:10):
When I hear about China and taking care of
the elderly, I think, wow, youknow that's such a beautiful
thing and you know just a reallyneat way to value life.
But because of just the successand everything, is it actually
stressful?
Do people have a lot of stressin feeling that they have to
(24:31):
take care of their parents?
Or is it this, you know, verybeautiful, like wonderful thing
I get to take care of my parentsnow, later in life?
Jolie (24:41):
I think it depends on the person.
You know some people if they'rereally career driven and
thinking they need to take abreak from making money and then
taking care of their parents,and then normally, when they're
older, they need a lot more carethan you know just the regular
meals and stuff, and just theregular meals and stuff.
So, yeah, I can see that theywould feel pressure to have to
(25:03):
take care, especially if it's onmultiple grandparents or
parents.
Bob Fleischmann (25:13):
When you became connected with the Wells out
there.
How did that happen?
How did you end up—did you meetWells?
Because you came to WLC, I mean, how did you find out?
First?
There's all sorts of schoolsyou could end up at in the
United States.
Jolie (25:24):
When I was in college in China, there were a couple
teachers there from FLC Friendsof China, so they were teaching
English.
One is teaching English, onewas learning Chinese in my
college and then so I got toknow them because I was an
English major, and then theywould be invited to some other
(25:45):
events.
So I got to know them and then,after we became friends, they
told me that they are Christiansand they would like to have
studies we call them Englishcorners where people can come
and practice English but alsolearn about the Bible.
So I started inviting myfriends.
I did have a college fellowshipin the college in China and
(26:08):
then so I invited them.
I invited a couple otherfriends so they started this
English corner.
It was very.
It drew a lot of studentsbecause not just God's Word, but
I think people not just thatthey want to practice English,
but they're hungry for God'sWord as well.
So there are some who are notChristian who would come, and by
(26:31):
the time they left, after twoyears, our group grew from seven
to about 70.
So it was a huge revival.
And then after they left, I feela little lost.
I really miss them and also Italked to my mom.
(26:53):
I was like I'm not reallylearning much in my college.
Is it possible to leave?
And by then I was in my junioryear and she said people are
starting to get ready for work,it doesn't make any sense for
you to leave.
And then I got connected with awealth teacher that came back
here and they recommended acouple schools.
(27:13):
One of them went to WSC as welland then one of them went to
UWM.
So they both told me abouttheir school.
I looked into both and then, asan out-of-state international
student, the tuition reallywasn't different.
So I tried to apply for WSC andthen there were some other
tests that I had to do, like anEnglish proficiency test, and I
(27:35):
didn't have much time to preparebut I thankfully that was kind
of a confirmation for me and mymom to see whether God really
allowed me to come.
And yeah, I was able to passand because of the score I was
able to get a scholarship aswell.
So it kind of helped my momwith the financial burden and
(27:56):
just kind of a confirmation tosay that it's okay to go.
So I transferred in my junioryear and kind of had to start
over because I changed major andthen, yeah, it took me three
and a half years to graduate, soI was in college for six years.
Bob Fleischmann (28:12):
Well, and then you were coming back each year
to work on your master's, andyou did that out in New
Hampshire.
Jolie (28:18):
Vermont, vermont, vermont , same difference, right?
Bob Fleischmann (28:23):
They all look the same out there.
Christa Potratz (28:25):
You know we've talked a lot about just the
differences in churches, chinaversus just America as a whole
here.
Is there anything else that youthink our podcast listeners
would be surprised to know, orthat is very different, just the
way things are done in Chinaversus here in the United States
(28:49):
.
Jolie (28:51):
I think China are still comparatively conservative in a
lot of ways, even though it'snot a Christian country and the
government believes inatheismism.
But then a lot of the valuesare still, I think, aligned with
Christian value, so like eventhough abortion is allowed, and
(29:12):
but there are some others likemarriage and LGBTQ issue.
So people I think there aremore LGBTQ people in China they
feel more accepted now, butaccording to the law, you can
only get married legally if it'sa man and a woman, so that's
still pretty conservative.
Bob Fleischmann (29:33):
Well, and part of the relationship that Jolie
and I have developed over theyears.
Just really, when you gotmarried and you would have
questions and stuff, she wasalways shooting an email or a
text and stuff and then, prettysoon, pictures of kids and the
rest is history.
But I mean it was just a goodopportunity to kind of stay
(29:53):
tethered a little bit and talkabout things.
It's interesting.
I know that it's been kind of aroller coaster up and down as
far as during COVID and stufflike that.
It's been some hard times.
But it was fascinating justhearing her perspective on life
in China compared to becauseliving in Shanghai.
Shanghai is a huge city buteverything is distance.
(30:17):
Like you and I were talking theother night about travel and
stuff.
Oh yeah, well, they're twohours by bus or something and
you know, around here I mean Ilive out in the country Two
hours should get me into anotherstate, you know, but for you
it's just a lot of travel andyou don't have a car Right.
Christa Potratz (30:39):
Well, thank you very much.
This has been a veryinteresting conversation and
just with our podcast andtalking about different life
challenges.
Sometimes, you know, we canjust get so focused into what is
happening right here with us inour life and it is just really
(31:00):
neat to have that perspectivesometimes as to what's going on
in different places too.
So we really appreciate yousharing that with us.
Thank you for having me.
We thank all of our listenersfor joining us, and if you have
any questions at all forourselves and for Jolie as well,
you can reach us atlifechallengesus.
(31:21):
Thanks a lot, bye.
Paul Snamiska (31:25):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of
the Life Challenges podcast fromChristian Life Resources.
Please consider subscribing tothis podcast, giving us a review
wherever you access it andsharing it with friends.
We're sure you have questionson today's topic or other life
issues.
Our goal is to help you throughthese tough topics and we want
you to know we're here to help.
(31:46):
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
suggestions for future episodes,at lifechallengesus or email us
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In addition to the podcasts, weinclude other valuable
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(32:08):
For more about our parentorganization, please visit
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May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge.
On today's episode.
They've developed this culturewhere both grandparents will be
taking care of this onegrandchild, and then the parents
will be working and so, andthen they yeah, they just become
very used to that.
So, it's hard for them to thinkthat we can have another one.
So a lot of my friends they myChristian friends I think
(00:41):
they're open to it.
But a lot of my other friendsthey feel like even one child is
too much because they want tomake sure they have enough time
and energy for their career.
So some of my friends they'renot even thinking about having
kids or thinking like it mightbe a burden.
Paul Snamiska (00:59):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources.
People today face manyopportunities and struggles when
it comes to issues of life anddeath, marriage and family,
health and science.
We're here to bring a freshbiblical perspective to these
issues and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz (01:33):
Hi and welcome back.
I'm Krista Potrat and I'mjoined today by pastors Bob
Fleischman and Jeff Samuelson,and today we have a special
guest with us.
Today we have Jolie joining usand Jolie today is going to talk
about China.
Jolie and Bob go way back hereand we'll kind of explain that
connection here soon, but wereally wanted to ask questions,
(01:55):
kind of know what's going onwith China as it relates to life
issues and things that we'reinterested with the podcast.
So welcome Jolie.
Can you tell us a little bitabout yourself and your
connection with Bob?
Jolie (02:12):
My name is Jolie.
I was born and raised in China.
I got to know about Jesus whenI was around eight, so my mom
was the one who introducedChristianity to me.
That's also when she startedgoing to church and then.
So we started attendinggovernment churches that are
more regulated and then thegovernment has authority over it
(02:34):
.
But we do have somewhat freedomto hear about the gospel and to
study the Bible.
But back then I think I, or bothof us, didn't really understand
what it meant to be a Christian.
So we felt like God was morelike almost like a genie, so we
pray when we need something andnot so much really digging to
(02:55):
His Word.
And then we had to kind ofchange that mindset when I kind
of did really bad on my collegeentrance exam, when it was a
really important exam, kind ofTo us it decides my future, like
if I did well then I could goto a good college, which means
good career and good future.
(03:17):
But then instead I did very badunexpectedly.
So we had to rethink what itmeant to really follow God and
to be a Christian even whenthings don't go our way.
And then after that I did getinto a college, but it wasn't
very good, so we were stilldisappointed.
(03:38):
But then I also had an accident.
I had a very severe allergicreaction where I just passed out
.
And then during that incidentmy mom prayed really hard and I
heard her prayer and I was ableto just really be sure that God
does exist and he cares moreabout my success.
(03:59):
And following Him is not justhaving Him do what I want, but
to follow his will.
And so that shift our focus tobeing a Christian and I got
baptized a week after.
So when I was in college I alsogot connected with some Wells
teachers.
So in junior year of college inChina I transferred to WLC and
(04:22):
that's when I got connected withPastor Bob.
Bob Fleischmann (04:25):
And the rest is history.
Christa Potratz (04:27):
Well, thank you for sharing that.
I think too.
When you talk about just thatmindset using prayer in hopes
that your prayers get answered,but then realizing just how
different it is to actuallyfollow Jesus I think that can
really resonate with a lot ofpeople.
Do you find that most people inChina do kind of think that can
really resonate with a lot ofpeople?
Do you find that most people inChina do kind of think that way
(04:47):
?
Jolie (04:48):
I think a lot of my Christian friends.
They kind of have to battlethrough this as well, because
China is very success-driven andvery rat racing.
So we kind of we were allraised in this culture where we
have to really depend onourselves, we have to work hard
and to get results and we haveto succeed and if we don't then
there's no hope.
So a lot of us are raised inthis mindset.
(05:11):
So even becoming a Christian,we have to get adjusted to.
Okay, worldly success is notthe most important and God is
more than what this world canoffer.
Bob Fleischmann (05:22):
Did you live in Shanghai all of your life or in
the area of Shanghai?
Jolie (05:27):
I live in Hangzhou, which is two hours away from Shanghai
.
It's not very far.
Bob Fleischmann (05:31):
The other thing I was wondering is I think
probably some people might havebeen surprised to hear that
China has a state church.
How does that work?
It's a completely foreignconcept to us in the States.
Jolie (05:43):
I think China they want to.
They say that we have religiousfreedom, so they do establish
these churches.
We call them three-self church.
I don't remember what thethree-self stands for, but one
of them is self-propaganda, sowe don't accept foreign help.
There's no foreigners in thesechurches.
(06:04):
And then the pastors they go tothese seminaries are approved
by the government and theirsermons have to be approved by
the government as well.
And on every three-self churchit says love your country, love
your religion.
So country goes ahead likecountry goes above the religion.
(06:24):
And then the other is to lovethe people.
Christa Potratz (06:27):
My family and I took a trip to China this was
several years ago and our tourguide my mom noticed just kept
saying you know, oh, this is thebiggest.
You know whatever in China,this is the best in China and
everything I mean everything wasabout China.
I mean it wasn't ever likeoutside of China, like this is
(06:48):
the biggest in the world, orthis is the biggest in Asia, or
whatever.
It was all just the best ofChina and it just really I like
to hear you talking too.
Just that whole idea of likecountry coming first, I think is
a very big part of Chineseculture.
Jeff Samelson (07:06):
One of the things that's, I hope, beneficial for
our American and other friends,listening to your description of
the state church there, is thatthat's kind of the extreme,
easy to identify example ofstate control of a church.
I mean, you're able to look atthat and say but at the same
time, that has existedthroughout history in so many
(07:28):
different ways.
It's just often a little bitmore subtle.
For instance, I doubt that theleaders of your country are
going to say well, we'reChristians and that's why we
should be in charge of thechurch.
Many places in Europe, forinstance in the Middle Ages or
whatever, I am the preeminentChristian as the king of this
country and therefore I shouldalso be in charge of the church
and tell it what to do and thatkind of thing.
(07:50):
But it's in a bit more raw sensethe way that you're describing
it, and I think it's helpful,because there are a lot of
Americans and others who arekind of thinking well, I don't
like the way things are rightnow.
The church should have morecontrol over things.
And well, how does that happen?
Well, that means we get thechurch into the government, but
(08:13):
that also means that thegovernment gets into the church.
Eventually, that balance comesout in a way that you don't
particularly like, and it's goodto have the reminder that it
can be very different.
Christa Potratz (08:26):
So after you graduated Wisconsin Lutheran
College too, or I guess evenjust your college experience was
there anything that stood outto you about Christians here in
the US, or just the Christianculture here when you went to
college?
Jolie (08:45):
When I was in China there weren't.
So we actually, after we wentto government churches, we
realized that we're not reallystudying much about the Bible,
we're not learning much.
So my mom was introduced to ahouse church later on and so we
started attending house churcheswhere the government is aware,
(09:05):
but then they don't.
You know, we don't have to gettheir approval in terms of
sermon or worship and whateverwe do.
So then I feel like that wasvery helpful.
But when I went to Wisconsin andI feel like, first of all,
people have a lot of freedom interms of, you know, religious or
(09:29):
anything, or speech.
There's a lot of things we'renot really supposed to say in
China.
And then here people have a lotof freedom.
And then there are a lot ofdenominations, a lot of
different beliefs and differentways to interpret the Bible,
which, yeah, is kind of new tome, because when I was in China
we didn't have many resources.
So whatever we got, we kind ofjust studied from there and we
(09:53):
would discuss and see if it'strue according to the Bible, but
there's not much doctrineestablished.
So here I feel like at WLC, aspart of the requirement for
graduation, we need to take fourtheology courses and I feel
like it was very helpful for meto just have that more
systematic understanding ofdoctrine and the Bible and I
(10:17):
really appreciate that.
Christa Potratz (10:19):
Just even to when you mention house churches
in China, you said that thegovernment knows about the house
churches and different things.
Are those becoming more popularnow or not?
Jolie (10:34):
I'd like to think they're getting more popular because
the word is spreading.
I think we see a revival inChinese house churches and, like
I said, we don't have manyresources, so that's kind of one
of a big problem.
So there's a lot of also splitsin house churches where just
people have different views onthe Bible or a certain verse or
(10:56):
parts of the Bible.
But there are, I think, morechurches, house churches.
In general, we're not supposedto have more than 20 people
under the government regulation,so if there is a bigger one,
the government would intercedeand ask us to split into
different groups.
Bob Fleischmann (11:16):
Now, another thing that I remember you and I
talked about was that you'rereally not allowed to evangelize
or proselytize in China.
It isn't like, well, thisSunday we're going to work on a
big outreach effort.
You can't do that, whichpresents some unique challenges,
(11:37):
seeing how a primary call ofthe Christian community is to
reach out.
So right now you attend anon-denominational international
church, right, and it fallsunder all the restrictions and
everything that you've alwayshad.
Jolie (11:54):
So, is that a state church?
We're registered under thestate church as a Sunday school.
Okay.
Jeff Samelson (12:01):
Oh okay, Kind of turning Bob's observation into a
question On a personal level.
For you, or really for anyBible-believing, gospel-hoping
Christian, how easy is it toknow where the line is that you
have crossed or are about tocross when it comes to sharing
(12:26):
the news of Christ with somebody.
When you've just met somebody,you've just gotten close enough
to somebody to talk, theymention that they've got some
problem, or you just simply findout that they're not a believer
and you want to talk to themabout this or tell them this is
what God has to say.
How do you know where that lineis so you know whether you're
(12:47):
stepping over it or past it orwhatever?
Is that a hard thing to do?
Jolie (12:51):
I think we're pretty free in doing that if we're smart
about it.
So yeah, as a church it'sharder to do that.
But as a person, if I have afriend and a colleague, it's
pretty easy to talk about itover a lunch.
Or if we go out and we talkabout our problems and sharing
how I handle my problem, how Irely on God, it's pretty easy.
(13:14):
But as a church it's a lotharder.
Christa Potratz (13:20):
When you graduated college, did you go
back to China then?
Right?
Jolie (13:25):
away.
Yes, so I studied elementaryeducation in WRC and then for my
final student teaching, myprofessor actually got me a
student teaching position inShanghai, china, and that was
where I worked afterwards,because before I left they asked
for if I wanted to stay.
Christa Potratz (13:46):
So after graduation I went back there,
okay, so you got married and Iknow you have some children now
too, right, right.
And I guess where I'm kind ofgoing with that then is just
like the family life now inChina that you have and raising
your children in thatenvironment.
(14:06):
How is that going witheverything?
Jolie (14:12):
I think I might be a little different from my friends
.
So when I was in WSC I stayedwith some friends who took a
couple years off to stay withtheir children.
So I just felt reallyencouraged and I feel like I
want to do that with my children, because they're only so little
for such a short time.
I want to make sure that I amthere and I just can't imagine
(14:33):
me going to work full time andcoming back and still having
energy to be with them, toreally be present in their life.
So after I had my daughter, Imade the decision to resign and
to stay home with her, and Istill am.
I started homeschooling her twoyears ago, but none of this is
(14:53):
conventional in China.
I had to really convince myparents that it's okay that I
don't have a job right now.
I will go back to work.
Bob Fleischmann (15:03):
Did you get criticism at all from friends
who think you know when are yougoing to get out and work and
when are you going to get goingon this stuff?
Jolie (15:11):
I think most of my friends they understand.
They even kind of envy me fornot having to go to work.
Yeah, A lot of my friends.
They're trying to get a houseor buying cars for their
children and my husband is fromAmerica, so we don't really want
property in China or we're notreally investing in that, so we
(15:32):
don't have the pressure fromthat, which I think helps me to
make that decision of being ableto stay home and not having to
work all the time.
Bob Fleischmann (15:41):
Now we've talked about on this podcast on
occasion.
You know China's had theone-child policy and it's a
communist government, so it's awhole different kind of a makeup
than what we have here.
How has the one-child policymatter go in China?
How did it affect things, orwhat consequences do you see of
(16:04):
it in your experience there?
Jolie (16:06):
Most of my classmates are the only child in their family.
So I think growing up we justknew, we all, just you know,
there's only one kid in eachfamily, so we weren't really
taught that there is another way.
When I was in middle school Ihad a classmate who had two more
kids in their family and wewere all in awe.
(16:28):
We're like how come, whathappened?
How can you have three?
And she said they're very welloff so they were able to pay the
fine for breaking the law tohave three.
But it did cost a lot of money.
So we I don't think we were wefelt the impact of it.
(16:49):
You know we don't have siblingsto play with, but we do become
good friends with other kids inthe neighborhood.
So it didn't really affect meuntil, I think, later on, when I
was in college and then peopleasked me about it and, and I'm
realizing, there are somefriends whose parents have to go
through abortion or they haveto send their kids somewhere to
(17:12):
hide until it's safer to comeback.
So I have some friends who arelike that, who still kind of
hold grudges toward theirparents for sending them away,
but now more understanding thatthey kind of had to do that to
(17:39):
preserve their life, are having.
Jeff Samelson (17:42):
What's been reported is that that's not
working so well that they didtoo good a job of convincing
people that it was good to onlyhave one, if you're even going
to have any, I guess.
I'm just asking what you'veobserved about that.
Is that the correctunderstanding of things, or do
(18:02):
you have any stories to tellabout that?
Jolie (18:04):
you know the correct understanding of things, or do
you have any stories to tellabout that?
Before I got married, 2016 iswhen they started to come out
with the policy that if you,you're allowed to have two.
So I think people it's justbecause we're so used to having
one.
The policy has been there since1979.
So people are very used to it.
They've developed this culturewhere both grandparents will be
(18:26):
taking care of this onegrandchild and then the parents
will be working and so, and thenthey yeah, they just become
very used to that, so it's hardfor them to think that we can
have another one.
So a lot of my friends they myChristian friends, I think
they're open to it.
But a of my other friends theyfeel like even one child is too
(18:48):
much because they want to makesure they have enough time and
energy for their career.
So some of my friends they'renot even thinking about having
kids or thinking like it mightbe a burden.
And then I feel like China ourgovernment isn't too, so they
gave us this policy but there'snot much benefit in supporting
(19:11):
having more than one, Likethere's no extra benefit in
raising more children.
So people just feel like one isvery stressful already.
Why do we need two.
Yeah, so we haven't really seenan increase, I guess, at least
in the people around me.
Jeff Samelson (19:30):
As a Christian mother, do you feel any
obligation, or even just urge totry to convince your friends
who are skeptical that no, no,this is actually a good thing?
And if so, how do you do that?
Jolie (19:44):
I think if I talk with Christian friends it's a lot
easier because we're kind of onthe same page, but with friends
who are not Christian it's a lotharder.
I can try to tell them thatbecause for me I have my fear of
raising two children and thefinancial or whatever burden I
have.
But I also know that God haspromised that he will provide
(20:06):
and the kids.
He created them and then heloves them more than I can love
them.
So I have this hope andassurance of you know God will
take care of my kids.
But yeah, with my other friendsit's hard to convince them when
they're already so surroundedby this culture that you have to
(20:28):
always earn more.
It's never enough.
You have to do this and do that.
Christa Potratz (20:33):
You mentioned your Christian friend.
Do you feel like you have a lotof Christian friends in China?
How is that?
Jolie (20:39):
dynamic.
When I started attending theinternational church a lot of
friends came from there.
So one of my colleagues thatworked with me, she invited me
to that church.
And then their young adultfellowship and I just felt it
was a really good bonding thatwe could study the Bible
(21:00):
together.
And going on Sunday isdefinitely not enough for my
spiritual growth.
And then I think the first yearI worked really hard because of
some challenges and it was hardfor me to be accountable on
Bible reading and prayer life onmy own.
So to be able to havefellowship was very helpful.
(21:21):
So then most of my Christianfriends come from that church
and then there are some otherwealth friends who are still in
China or in Asia that we alsotalk once in a while.
Bob Fleischmann (21:36):
You mentioned about the culture and how, even
as the one-child policy waslifted, people just they've been
steeped in it.
Now you've got children thatyou're raising in China and I
know that you're controlling alot of it with homeschooling.
But where else would they beinfluenced?
Do you think in the culturethat just playing with their
(21:59):
friends, or something?
Jolie (22:00):
Yeah, because they're homeschooled they don't have
that many friends, but thefriends that they play with are
also our church friends andthey're kids who are also just
very like-minded.
So currently they're in aprotected bubble for now.
Currently they're in aprotected bubble for now.
Bob Fleischmann (22:21):
Well, how about at the end-of-life spectrum?
What is it like in China Caringfor the elderly when people are
sick?
Is there a high sense ofaccountability?
I know that we've always kindof learned that it was more
valuable to have a male childthan a female child.
Jolie (22:49):
The male child can care for the parents when the time
comes, and so forth.
How does that all play out inreality on their children?
And then for China in ourculture filial piety is very,
very highly valued.
So to show respect to theelders, to take care of your
parents, to make sure thatthey're well taken care of, so I
think most of it the burdenstill falls on the kids.
(23:13):
And then with our generation wehave the grandparents on both
sides and our own parents aswell, so they all kind of fall
under our care.
My parents are still living,grandparents have passed, but
for a lot of us we have like sixpeople to take care of or to
think about when we reach thatage.
(23:35):
And then there are some nursinghomes where you can.
You know the grandparents orour parents can go to, but it's
culturally.
People don't value them thatmuch.
Like the care is not very good.
And if you do send your parentsto nursing homes it means you
don't care for them.
So there's that connotation.
So nursing homes are not verypopular.
(23:56):
So it's a little bit difficult,because if you have multiple
kids, then if someone's notaround, then one of the children
can help take care of theparents.
But for us, yeah, if ourparents are sick, it's a lot
more difficult.
Christa Potratz (24:10):
When I hear about China and taking care of
the elderly, I think, wow, youknow that's such a beautiful
thing and you know just a reallyneat way to value life.
But because of just the successand everything, is it actually
stressful?
Do people have a lot of stressin feeling that they have to
(24:31):
take care of their parents?
Or is it this, you know, verybeautiful, like wonderful thing
I get to take care of my parentsnow, later in life?
Jolie (24:41):
I think it depends on the person.
You know some people if they'rereally career driven and
thinking they need to take abreak from making money and then
taking care of their parents,and then normally, when they're
older, they need a lot more carethan you know just the regular
meals and stuff, and just theregular meals and stuff.
So, yeah, I can see that theywould feel pressure to have to
(25:03):
take care, especially if it's onmultiple grandparents or
parents.
Bob Fleischmann (25:13):
When you became connected with the Wells out
there.
How did that happen?
How did you end up—did you meetWells?
Because you came to WLC, I mean, how did you find out?
First?
There's all sorts of schoolsyou could end up at in the
United States.
Jolie (25:24):
When I was in college in China, there were a couple
teachers there from FLC Friendsof China, so they were teaching
English.
One is teaching English, onewas learning Chinese in my
college and then so I got toknow them because I was an
English major, and then theywould be invited to some other
(25:45):
events.
So I got to know them and then,after we became friends, they
told me that they are Christiansand they would like to have
studies we call them Englishcorners where people can come
and practice English but alsolearn about the Bible.
So I started inviting myfriends.
I did have a college fellowshipin the college in China and
(26:08):
then so I invited them.
I invited a couple otherfriends so they started this
English corner.
It was very.
It drew a lot of studentsbecause not just God's Word, but
I think people not just thatthey want to practice English,
but they're hungry for God'sWord as well.
So there are some who are notChristian who would come, and by
(26:31):
the time they left, after twoyears, our group grew from seven
to about 70.
So it was a huge revival.
And then after they left, I feela little lost.
I really miss them and also Italked to my mom.
(26:53):
I was like I'm not reallylearning much in my college.
Is it possible to leave?
And by then I was in my junioryear and she said people are
starting to get ready for work,it doesn't make any sense for
you to leave.
And then I got connected with awealth teacher that came back
here and they recommended acouple schools.
(27:13):
One of them went to WSC as welland then one of them went to
UWM.
So they both told me abouttheir school.
I looked into both and then, asan out-of-state international
student, the tuition reallywasn't different.
So I tried to apply for WSC andthen there were some other
tests that I had to do, like anEnglish proficiency test, and I
(27:35):
didn't have much time to preparebut I thankfully that was kind
of a confirmation for me and mymom to see whether God really
allowed me to come.
And yeah, I was able to passand because of the score I was
able to get a scholarship aswell.
So it kind of helped my momwith the financial burden and
(27:56):
just kind of a confirmation tosay that it's okay to go.
So I transferred in my junioryear and kind of had to start
over because I changed major andthen, yeah, it took me three
and a half years to graduate, soI was in college for six years.
Bob Fleischmann (28:12):
Well, and then you were coming back each year
to work on your master's, andyou did that out in New
Hampshire.
Jolie (28:18):
Vermont, vermont, vermont , same difference, right?
Bob Fleischmann (28:23):
They all look the same out there.
Christa Potratz (28:25):
You know we've talked a lot about just the
differences in churches, chinaversus just America as a whole
here.
Is there anything else that youthink our podcast listeners
would be surprised to know, orthat is very different, just the
way things are done in Chinaversus here in the United States
(28:49):
.
Jolie (28:51):
I think China are still comparatively conservative in a
lot of ways, even though it'snot a Christian country and the
government believes inatheismism.
But then a lot of the valuesare still, I think, aligned with
Christian value, so like eventhough abortion is allowed, and
(29:12):
but there are some others likemarriage and LGBTQ issue.
So people I think there aremore LGBTQ people in China they
feel more accepted now, butaccording to the law, you can
only get married legally if it'sa man and a woman, so that's
still pretty conservative.
Bob Fleischmann (29:33):
Well, and part of the relationship that Jolie
and I have developed over theyears.
Just really, when you gotmarried and you would have
questions and stuff, she wasalways shooting an email or a
text and stuff and then, prettysoon, pictures of kids and the
rest is history.
But I mean it was just a goodopportunity to kind of stay
(29:53):
tethered a little bit and talkabout things.
It's interesting.
I know that it's been kind of aroller coaster up and down as
far as during COVID and stufflike that.
It's been some hard times.
But it was fascinating justhearing her perspective on life
in China compared to becauseliving in Shanghai.
Shanghai is a huge city buteverything is distance.
(30:17):
Like you and I were talking theother night about travel and
stuff.
Oh yeah, well, they're twohours by bus or something and
you know, around here I mean Ilive out in the country Two
hours should get me into anotherstate, you know, but for you
it's just a lot of travel andyou don't have a car Right.
Christa Potratz (30:39):
Well, thank you very much.
This has been a veryinteresting conversation and
just with our podcast andtalking about different life
challenges.
Sometimes, you know, we canjust get so focused into what is
happening right here with us inour life and it is just really
(31:00):
neat to have that perspectivesometimes as to what's going on
in different places too.
So we really appreciate yousharing that with us.
Thank you for having me.
We thank all of our listenersfor joining us, and if you have
any questions at all forourselves and for Jolie as well,
you can reach us atlifechallengesus.
(31:21):
Thanks a lot, bye.
Paul Snamiska (31:25):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of
the Life Challenges podcast fromChristian Life Resources.
Please consider subscribing tothis podcast, giving us a review
wherever you access it andsharing it with friends.
We're sure you have questionson today's topic or other life
issues.
Our goal is to help you throughthese tough topics and we want
you to know we're here to help.
(31:46):
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
suggestions for future episodes,at lifechallengesus or email us
at podcast at christian liferesourcescom.
In addition to the podcasts, weinclude other valuable
information at life challengesus, so be sure to check it out.
(32:08):
For more about our parentorganization, please visit
christian life resourcescom.
May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge.
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