July 8, 2025 • 37 mins
Freedom carries profoundly different meanings depending on whether you're viewing it through the lens of modern culture or biblical truth. This thought-provoking episode tackles the paradox at the heart of Christian freedom—that surrender to Christ actually leads to our greatest liberty.
Pastor Bob Fleischmann begins by sharing Martin Luther's powerful insight that "A Christian man is the most free lord of all and subject to none. A Christian man is the most dutiful servant of all and subject to everyone." This seemingly contradictory statement opens the door to understanding how Christian freedom differs fundamentally from the world's concept of autonomy.
We explore how today's culture—from children's entertainment to political discourse—has shaped a shallow understanding of freedom as "having no rules." Even Frozen's beloved anthem "Let It Go" contains the revealing line: "No right, no wrong, no rules for me, I'm free." Against this cultural backdrop, we unpack Romans 6 and Galatians 5 to reveal how before Christ, we had only the "freedom" to sin—essentially the freedom to choose our chains. Through Christ's redemption, we gain something far greater: the freedom to do what is right.
The conversation takes an especially practical turn when discussing Christian citizenship. Rather than seeing our freedom in Christ as an exemption from civic responsibility, we discover how it uniquely equips us to serve our neighbors through thoughtful participation in society. As one pastor notes, "Christians are called to be yeast in society—influencing it while remaining distinct."
Whether you're wrestling with personal freedom questions or wondering how faith intersects with Independence Day celebrations, this episode offers refreshing clarity on what it truly means to be set free in Christ. The answer might surprise you—and transform how you view both spiritual liberty and its outworking in everyday life.
Find strength and courage in your faith at this year’s FEARLESS FAITH Conference. Inspired by Joshua 1:9, “Be strong and courageous,” join us Saturday, September 13, at Kettle Moraine Lutheran High School in Jackson, Wisconsin, for presentations on navigating life’s storms, understanding God’s peace, and engaging in crucial conversations about euthanasia, anorexia, abortion, prenatal genetic testing, and more. Hear powerful journeys of faith through loss and hope. Don’t miss this empowering event! $50 in person or $40 virtual. Register now: https://christianliferesources.com/resources/events/2025-conference/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christa Potratz (00:00):
On today's episode.
Bob Fleischmann (00:02):
And in a representative form of governing
, which is what we have in theUnited States.
It's also why you participate.
You have a voice in what therules are.
I do not endorse this kind ofsequestering ourselves away from
that, because we are to be theyeast of society, permeating
(00:22):
into society, and the challengeis to do that and not become
like society.
Paul Snamiska (00:30):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources.
People today face manyopportunities and struggles when
it comes to issues of life anddeath, marriage and family,
health and science.
We're here to bring a freshbiblical perspective to these
issues and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz (00:57):
Hi and welcome back.
I'm Krista Potratz and I'm heretoday with Pastors Bob
Fleischman and Jeff Samuelson,and during this time of year we
tend to like, with IndependenceDay, talk about different things
related to freedom, and sotoday we wanted to talk about
this concept of Christianfreedom and how that differs
(01:18):
from freedom in the world.
So, as we start this topictoday, asking ourselves, what
does freedom in Christ actuallymean from a biblical perspective
?
Jeff Samelson (01:31):
Not quite straight from the Bible, but it
just somewhat.
That definitely is biblical.
Just start with a quote fromMartin Luther.
He wrote an entire treatise onthe freedom of the Christian,
and it was one of his earlierwritings, 1520.
And he said and you'll findvarious translations of this but
A Christian man is the mostfree Lord of all and subject to
(01:52):
none.
A Christian man is the mostdutiful servant of all and
subject to everyone.
And it's just a wonderful andpithy description of it.
In one sense, we're free.
Christ has set us free not justfrom sin, but from the burdens
of the law and all that.
And, yeah, wonderful.
Nobody has that authority overus except God.
(02:14):
But on the other hand,precisely because we are
Christians, we have a duty oflove toward everyone else, and
that means that we don't putourselves first, we don't do
what we want.
The freedom that we have wedon't necessarily express,
because we have that duty towardeveryone else as well.
(02:35):
So it's a complicated thing,it's real, but there is
complexity to it.
Bob Fleischmann (02:42):
I felt that in these latter years it just seems
like people have become moresimplistic.
So when they think of freedom,they think well, I want free, I
want to be free, I wanteverything to be free.
Nobody should tell me how tolive, nobody should tell me what
to do.
You know that kind of stuff,that kind of a freedom, and I
think you know when we talkabout and we've talked about it
(03:04):
before on this podcast aboutChristian nationalism this idea
flesh, in other words, there's afence around freedom, and that
(03:29):
doesn't make you less free.
In fact, I think a lot of timeswe don't think about what does.
If you really bind into thisidea of absolute freedom, do you
really know what you're askingfor?
That means you know freedom,not just to do what you think
you can do, but that means theperverted person living next
door wants to be free to do whathe wants to do, and that kind
(03:52):
of stuff.
In other words, freedom has afence around it.
Christa Potratz (03:56):
And it's maybe just good to talk about that
difference a little bit too,about how the freedom in Christ
differs from the freedom of thisworld, and I think you know how
you just kind of talk aboutlike having a fence on Christ
too.
There is, I mean, I don't knowif a fence, but just something
that maybe almost protects youfrom the consequences in a way.
(04:18):
I mean I think of like a kid ina candy store.
And if you just let a kid inthere and just said, okay, you
are free to eat whatever youwant I mean my kids definitely
would and just okay.
Like you have a stomach achenow, or you really don't feel
good or you really shouldn'thave eaten all of that.
(04:38):
Or now there's like gumeverywhere, it's all sticky and
gross and you know there'sconsequences to the freedom that
are not good for you as well.
Bob Fleischmann (04:52):
This idea of doing whatever you want is
deeply indoctrinated today inour culture.
I wrote an article just a weekor two ago in which I talked
about why people are leaving thechurch because you know,
they're not letting people befree to do with what they want
and I pulled out three examplesof freedom from children's
(05:13):
programming.
One is a song by Raven-Symonéthat says you don't have to be
like anybody else.
So what's the problem?
Why can't you be like yourself?
You're individual.
You might as well let it show.
That's freedom.
There's a show in which theentertainment is Gabby Duran and
the Unsittables and their lyricis I do my thing, you do your
(05:38):
thing.
When we don't fit in, we standout in the crowd and we shout it
loud I do my thing, I'm the oneand only Don't try to fit in.
But then you get into somethingvery popular like Frozen and
let it go.
The line in Let it Go from Elsais it's time to see what I can
do to test the limits and breakthrough.
(05:58):
No right, no wrong, no rulesfor me, I'm free.
We keep indoctrinating ourselveswith those kinds of notions and
then we wonder why, when thekids aren't getting their
homework done and you say youstop playing the video game.
We got to get the homework done.
They feel like you've infringedon them.
I'm free, no rules, and theworld teaches that.
(06:21):
So when we get intoIndependence Day, only the fool
doesn't even know the storybehind Independence Day.
It had nothing to do with thisabsolute, no moral consequences
type freedom.
It had to do with freedom topractice your religion, freedom
to do things that were notallowed, but still with offense
around it.
Jeff Samelson (06:41):
I think the world tends to define or think of
freedoms pretty much strictly inthe negative.
Freedom from, freedom fromrules, freedom from restrictions
, freedom from judgment, andeven I'm free to do whatever I
want, has the impliedclarification of and no one can
stop me.
That's again freedom from that,but freedom in Christ certainly
(07:06):
there is freedom from, and thatwe are free from guilt and fear
.
We are free from our captivityto sin, death and from Satan,
from their control.
Christ has set us free in allthose ways, but with Christian
freedom there's much more of apositive aspect, not of freedom
from, but freedom for.
(07:28):
He set us free to do what isgood and right and God-pleasing,
and that is something thatwasn't available to us before.
It wasn't possible for us.
Before we had been cleansed ofour sins and made pure and
righteous, we didn't have theoption of doing what was good
and right and God-pleasing.
I sometimes taught this with theexample of Alcatraz, that
(07:50):
imagine that you were imprisonedon Alcatraz.
This rock, this island in themidst of San Francisco Bay was
put there as an effective prisonbecause even if you could get
outside the walls, you couldn'tswim to safety or anything
because there were sharks inthose waters and it was really
cold.
Imagine that you are a prisonerand the warden comes to you and
(08:14):
says hey, I've got really goodnews, you've been pardoned,
you're free, but then doesabsolutely nothing to put you on
a boat back to the mainland.
What kind of freedom is that?
Okay, you're no longer aprisoner, you no longer have to
be punished for this, but youcan't do anything with that
freedom, with Christian freedom.
We were on that boat.
(08:34):
We're given the free pass tothe mainland and then we're able
to do the things that weweren't able to do before.
Christa Potratz (08:42):
Which scriptures can help us to
understand our freedom in Christ?
Jeff Samelson (08:46):
Well, In Galatians 5.13-15,.
After all, brothers, you werecalled to freedom.
Only, do not use your freedomas a starting point for your
sinful flesh.
Rather, serve one anotherthrough love.
In fact, the whole law issummed up in this one statement
love your neighbor as yourself.
But if you keep on biting anddevouring one another, watch out
(09:09):
that you are not consumed byone another.
It's really, you know, it's got.
That complete sense there offreedom is wonderful, you've got
it.
But if you just treat it as, oh, I'm free to do whatever,
you've lost it because you endup biting and devouring one
another, because everybody doeswhat they want and there's no
(09:30):
love.
Bob Fleischmann (09:31):
And it's interesting because you are free
to serve, which is interesting.
The word for serve, the Greekword, is doulos, which is you
get like doula and things likethat from, but it's the idea of
you're free to serve, serveothers.
And what translation did you?
That's the EHV.
Jeff Samelson (09:50):
Okay, yeah it's interesting.
Bob Fleischmann (09:52):
Those of you who've got the NIV 2011,.
You'll see that it talks abouthumble service, which I find
interesting because the wordhumble is not in there, but it's
talking about a biblical—Ithink they were trying to
incorporate the biblical conceptof love, which is sacrificial,
putting others ahead of yourself.
And then it says but in thatcontext, you're free.
(10:14):
Now, does everybody rememberwhen the first challenge to
freedom and the first challengeto that and that was Cain,
having killed Abel, you rememberCain saying am I my brother's
keeper?
And, of course, what's theimplication?
The implication, well, yes, youare.
By asking the question, youknow he was condemning himself,
he rejected freedom, he wantedhis own version of freedom.
(10:37):
And when people are seekingtheir own version of freedom,
you're going to ask yourself areyou pursuing the Cain version
of freedom?
I am not my brother's keeper, Ican do what I want, and my
brother kind of got in the wayso I killed him.
But the thing is is that we arefree to serve, and the idea is
that you have this wide latitudeto serve others.
(11:00):
Some people might serve them bytending to their wounds the
Good Samaritan.
Others might serve them byproviding food or providing
water.
Others might serve them byhelping them out with money.
The story of the Good Samaritanis a real slap in the face to
people who thought that they haddowned the idea of Christian
(11:23):
love in that here you have aSamaritan with a corrupt
religion who showed incrediblesacrifice for the sake of
another person, with noexpectation of a return.
There wasn't like a I'll dothis for you, but you got to pay
me back, you got to make megood on this, and so forth.
That was his idea.
You know, all of the exampleson being free to serve are
(11:47):
pretty, pretty sacrificial and,of course, the ultimate being
Christ himself prettysacrificial, and, of course, the
ultimate being Christ himself.
Christa Potratz (11:54):
Leslie KENDRICK , why do you think the world is
so caught up with this idea offreedom, with being
self-expression or autonomy?
Why is there just so much ofthat in the worldly concept of
freedom?
Jeff Samelson (12:07):
RICK.
Well, it fits with our sinfulnature very well, I mean, that's
what our sinful nature wants tohear.
And so we latch on to this ideaof liberty, that is, no chains
on me, I can do whatever.
And there are good things tothat.
We don't want to negate thatidea, but like, oh, this means I
(12:27):
can do what I want.
Well, that's what I want.
I want to be able to dowhatever I want, and it's one of
the sad things about theprogress that we have made as a
society, as a culture, as acivilization or whatever.
We've got so many things thatallow us to live free of
restrictions.
And I'm not just talking aboutwell, now I'm free to be the
(12:50):
woman that I was never born tobe, because science and medicine
have allowed you know all thesethings but just the idea that
it used to be that you weren'tfree to always speak your mind
in every situation because youhad to live in a community and
your reputation mattered,because if you destroyed your
reputation, nobody would dobusiness with you and you
(13:12):
wouldn't be able to make aliving.
Or if you spoke your mind atwork, you might lose your job
and then your children would gohungry because there were
restrictions that were just areflection of life itself.
In so many things, the morepeople feel well, I don't need
to worry about that anymore.
And the natural restrictionsthat tempered the idea of
(13:37):
freedom have slowly drifted away, and that's made people more
likely to just latch on to themost extreme idea of what
freedom is.
Bob Fleischmann (13:48):
And that's why, when I think of a single term
to describe society, the wordshallow comes to mind.
People tend to not thinkthrough what they want.
You know, when they definefreedom, when they argue,
proclaim, protest for freedom,they don't follow it all the way
through.
So they say people should befree to do what they want, or to
(14:09):
live the way they wish, and soforth.
Well, at some point there'sgoing to have to be a line drawn
.
How do you intend to draw thatline?
On what basis do you intend todraw that line?
If we call it the fullestexpression of love, based on
whose standard?
What standard?
Society seems to want to diluteeverything down to a bumper
(14:30):
sticker, to a little plaque youcan hang on the wall and, as a
result, they have no depth, nothought about what it means.
And when you look at theGalatians passage, you know.
And it talks about being freeto serve.
Maybe you know and not.
Maybe this is being facetious,but you know.
(14:50):
But maybe there's somethingabout serving.
That is the ultimate freedom,instead of thinking it as
slavery.
Or am I my brother's keeper?
You start with the premise I ammy brother's keeper.
Now, what are the free things Ican do to serve?
Jeff Samelson (15:06):
Part of your question was how does the
world's idea of freedom fallshort of the reality?
How does the world's idea offreedom fall short of the
reality?
Political freedoms and socialfreedoms, if you want to call
them that, are there for thislife only.
They really deal only with ouroutward behavior, our actions
and things like that.
But freedom in Christ is foreternity and it deals with our
(15:29):
heart, mind and soul.
Let me read a longer biblicalpassage going back to the root
of this.
This is from Romans 6.
Thanks be to God that, althoughyou used to be slaves of sin,
you became obedient from theheart to the pattern of the
teaching into which you wereplaced.
After you were set free fromsin, you became slaves of
righteousness.
I'm speaking in a human way,because of the weakness of your
(15:51):
flesh.
Indeed, just as you offeredyour members as slaves to
impurity and lawlessness,resulting in more lawlessness,
so now offer your members in thesame way as slaves to
righteousness, resulting insanctification.
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from
righteousness.
So what kind of fruit did youhave then?
They were things of which youare now ashamed.
(16:12):
Yes, the final result of thosethings is death.
But now, since you were setfree from sin and have become
slaves to God.
You have your fruit, resultingin sanctification, and the final
result is eternal life, for thewages of sin is death, but the
undeserved gift of God iseternal life in Christ Jesus,
our Lord.
(16:33):
That alone is a huge differencebetween the sinful idea of
freedom and the spiritual one.
Christa Potratz (16:44):
It is this life versus eternity as Christians
sometimes we at least I dosometimes wish like, oh man,
just like lived on an island orin a bubble, or it would just be
easier to be off by myself.
But that isn't the way that weare.
You know, we live in a culture,and so what are some of the
(17:05):
cultural lies about freedom thatChristians, specifically, are
tempted to believe?
Bob Fleischmann (17:14):
One is the idea that I can define freedom for
myself.
So, I think Christians havefallen into this, like the gay
lifestyle is not for me, but toeach their own.
Christa Potratz (17:28):
Or God will decide yeah, right, and so we
tend to want to step back.
Bob Fleischmann (17:33):
But the problem is that when you step outside
and I know I've used the analogyof a fence freedom within this
fence, but when you step outsideof the front fence, you're
playing with rules that are notvalid.
You know, jeff talked aboutChristians.
Remember that there is thissecular way of looking at
freedom and then there's thespiritual way of looking at
(17:54):
freedom.
We live in the world, but youcan't live like the world or of
the world.
The world is going to grantfreedoms and so forth that
Christians will never becomfortable with or you
shouldn't be comfortable with.
But it's a surrender to theworld to allow freedoms that are
harmful to go on.
(18:15):
I remember being criticizedbecause of something I had said
that was critical of genderrights, of gay rights and so
forth.
And they said well, thatdoesn't sound very loving, it's
not very Christian of you.
And I said well, it's also notvery Christian or very loving to
allow people to live with theillusion that you can thumb your
(18:37):
nose at God, that sometimes Ilove God and I love when God
says we should all be loving andso forth, but when I differ
with God, then God must be wrongand I'm right and I said I
don't think it's very loving forChristians who know better, to
allow that notion to stand Now Iprobably am deserving of
criticism if I should have beenmore loving in the way I offered
(18:59):
the criticism, but at the sametime I think the mistake is that
it's not loving to allow peopleto live with their mistaken
notions of what freedom ispeople?
Jeff Samelson (19:12):
to live with their mistaken notions of what
freedom is, and Bob's doing agreat job of outlining the idea
that Christian freedom means wedon't have to follow God's rules
or pay any attention to them.
Sometimes we even come acrossChristians I think particularly
here in the United States whohave this idea well, because I'm
a Christian, none of society'srules apply to me either.
I'm a Christian, I answer to ahigher authority than you.
So, yeah, that law that youmade that doesn't apply to me
(19:32):
either.
I'm a Christian, I answer to ahigher authority than you.
So, yeah, that law that youmade that doesn't apply to me.
I don't have to follow that IfI choose to.
That's one thing, but otherwiseI can just ignore it.
And it's rarely quite soblatant as that.
But I've come across a goodnumber of Christians who just
kind of have this idea.
It's like, well, we're special,we don't really have to obey
those rules because we've gotGod and so we have our own
(19:55):
authority here.
Bob Fleischmann (19:59):
And that's not the way God set things up and in
a representative form ofgoverning, which is what we have
in the United States.
It's also why you participate.
You have a voice in what therules are.
Have a voice in what the rulesare.
I do not endorse this kind ofsequestering ourselves away from
that, because we are to be theyeast of society, permeating
(20:21):
into society, and the challengeis to do that and not become
like society.
Christa Potratz (20:26):
So how does surrendering to Christ actually
lead to more freedom rather thanless?
Jeff Samelson (20:32):
And I think we've kind of touched on this a
little bit too, but oh, this isthe opportunity to bring in some
really good dogmatic theologyor whatever.
But state it very simply Beforewe were saved, before we came
to Christ and had faith and wereredeemed, the only freedom we
had was freedom to sin.
You know, some have expressedit as freedom only to choose
(20:54):
your chains.
You may have felt, oh yeah, I'mfree to do whatever.
Yeah, but whatever you do isgoing to be sinful and that
sends you to hell.
But after we have been saved,after we have been brought to
faith, we have the freedom nowto do what is good and right.
But, yeah, we still also havethe freedom to sin.
But why would you want to?
And that's a tremendousdifference in what you are
(21:18):
actually free to do.
Bob Fleischmann (21:20):
You know, part of the problem too is when we
think surrender again, we'rethinking like in the world's
terms.
You surrender to an enemy, yousurrender to people who want to
make you or force you to dosomething you don't want to do,
so you surrender.
But the biblical concept ofsurrendering to God,
surrendering to Christ, isprobably a little bit like the
(21:44):
analogy of a really greatmarriage.
I deeply, deeply love my wifeand so I surrender my
convenience to her.
I surrender other aspirations.
I have just to work for her, tocare for her, to watch over her
.
The idea of surrendering toChrist let's not forget we're
(22:05):
talking about perfectbenevolence here.
He's the one who did for youwhat nobody else could, not even
the most faithful spouse could,and so you surrender to it.
It's the deepest of allexpressions of love is when you
surrender to Christ and there isnothing about it.
That is slavery in the negativesense.
(22:27):
It's servitude with thegreatest of pleasure.
Well, and you know, kind oflook at it this way when you're
dating and you find out that theperson you're dating really
just loves Blue Moon ice cream,all of a sudden, even if you
don't like Blue Moon ice cream,you, for their birthday, you buy
(22:50):
them Blue Moon ice cream andyou're surrendering what
normally you would be pursuingfor their benefit, because it's
your way of honoring them.
You know, if we get rid of thenegativeness of surrender and
find that there's exceptionalbeauty in it, all of a sudden
it's like what can I do now toplease you, god?
(23:14):
I always go back to that psalmthat says you know, I rejoiced
when they said to me let's come,let us go to the house of the
Lord.
When I was a kid I thoughtyou've got to be kidding me.
This is the most boring thing Ido in my week is going to
church singing songs.
I don't like singing.
Everything about it wasnegative.
But when you grow in your faith, surrendering to Christ becomes
(23:38):
your ambition in life.
It becomes what you look for.
Christa Potratz (23:48):
I loved that verse you read from Romans too,
because it really kind oftouched on a lot of that stuff
and it just this kind of thisidea that we're always like a
slave to something right andwe're always kind of chained to
something and you know, even toI've heard just recently I was
kind of like you know hearingpeople's testimonies with people
that did not believe in God andthen now that they do believe,
(24:13):
they had a conversion.
And it's just really neatsometimes too, to hear people
like that talk, because you seehow they really were so absorbed
in the ways of the world andhow they really thought that
they bought into all the liesthat the world told them and
they were so into trying to getsuccess, trying to get money,
(24:36):
trying to just indulge in allthese things and they just there
was something missing in theirlife and they just felt so empty
inside.
And then the joy that they hadin Christ and how they realized,
man, you know, I was fightingso hard and thought all these
other things were going to makeme happy and bring me success,
(25:00):
and now it's just so amazing tohear those people how much they
love the Lord and how the Lordwas the thing in their life that
was missing and how they justfeel so free now in what God has
done for them.
And so it's just I don't know,it's just like a really cool
(25:23):
thing to think about and justthis idea that that whole like
when we think we're free, we'renot free, but when we are free
then we are.
So we're going to keep goinghere.
What role does the Holy Spiritplay in helping us walk in
freedom day by day?
Jeff Samelson (25:41):
All the things that he does for us and
everything else in life.
He gives us guidance, he givesus wisdom, he gives us
encouragement and, particularly,gives us strength.
Strength and faith inparticular, which then helps us
to live free of guilt and fearand the control of sin and Satan
, and then also then inspiresand moves us forward towards all
the good that we now reallywant to do.
Bob Fleischmann (26:05):
Holy Spirit uses the means of grace, god's
Word, the sacraments and soforth, and I think there's
clearly a corollary betweenexposure to the Word and finding
your freedom in doing thethings of God, freedom to serve,
to serve others.
Because how else can youexplain why, when you were less
(26:27):
spiritual or less understandingof Scripture, were you also less
inclined to find freedom inserving and sought freedom in
the things that the world wouldoffer?
But as you became increasinglyexposed to the Word of God, it
really is a miraculous changethat takes place, because the
Bible hasn't changed From thetime I was a child to the time I
(26:50):
was an adult.
The Bible is still the Bible,it just hasn't changed.
And the preachers still readthe scriptures, read the Bible
readings, stuff in church, andit just felt like at times it
didn't stick.
But you see, through carefulworking of the Holy Spirit,
change does occur.
You begin to understand, youbegin to pursue and there are
(27:14):
things I understand now that Ithought was nonsense when I was
a child.
The psalmist says ask God toforgive him for the sins of the
youth.
And it's why, it's because theHoly Spirit is that maturing
element in your life and sooften we make the mistake of
cutting ourselves off from thatbecause we feel it's not doing
(27:34):
anything for me, when Scripturesays people are going to be
looking for things to tell themwhat their itching ears want to
hear.
That's a lot of times whatpeople do with church is that I
want to be free to do this.
I want to be free to think thisway.
I want to be free toparticipate in this kind of
lifestyle.
So I'm just going to lookaround and find the kind of
church I just was reading lastnight.
(27:55):
My wife has gotten hooked onWheel of Fortune, which is
painful for me, but hey, okay,we'll do it.
And Ryan Seacrest the commentcame up that he's an ordained
minister.
And I thought Ryan Seacrest anordained minister.
So I did some digging around.
He's from the Universal LifeChurch, which is they just
ordain anybody who wants to beordained for any reason at all,
(28:18):
so he could do weddings, andthat's what he is.
You find what your itching earswant to hear, because I would
suppose that that just suits himjust fine, being like that.
The point is is that freedomrequires understanding.
Christa Potratz (28:40):
The point is that freedom requires
understanding and you're notgoing to understand by isolating
yourself from the tool that theHoly Spirit uses to change you.
Jeff Samelson (28:49):
How does true Christian freedom or how does
true freedom in Christ affectour identity, relationships and
purpose?
A lot of people have the imageof Christians.
A lot of people outside thechurch have the image of
Christians as being drudges.
Yeah, they have no freedom.
They have no fun never the lifeof any party or anything like
that.
It's like who would want a lifelike that?
But we know the truth about whowe are the great, great and
(29:11):
famous thing that Jesus said inJohn 8, if you remain in my word
, you are really my disciples.
You will also know the truthand the truth will set you free
Again one of the things that theHoly Spirit does.
Going back to the previousquestion or whatever, so we know
that we don't have chains.
We are free to move through theworld and to do and to be the
(29:34):
very things that Christ hascalled us to do and to be.
We have identity in Christ.
We are new creatures.
We're completely different fromeverybody else, so we don't
have to judge ourselves or bejudged by the non-Christian
standards of what freedom is.
We know better and what we haveis better than anything else
(29:55):
that the world or our previouslives have to offer.
Bob Fleischmann (29:58):
And along that same line, when Jesus was in the
Garden of Gethsemane and Peterswiped off the guy's ear and
Jesus said I could call onlegions of angels and he didn't.
He's hanging on the cross.
He could have come down fromthe cross and he didn't.
He's hanging on the cross.
He could have come down fromthe cross but he didn't.
One of the things that findingyour freedom in Christ is.
(30:20):
When you study the life ofChrist, you have to ask yourself
so what pushed him to be likethat?
What changed him?
And you have to be willing toquestion.
What the world force-feeds youto believe is freedom,
especially when it challengesthe way Christ describes it, the
way scriptures describe it.
(30:41):
So I think you're empoweredthat way by it, forces you, it
gives you some grounding toquestion and challenge to
question and challenge.
Christa Potratz (30:51):
Yeah, when we talk about freedom and Christ
and you talked a lot about howit empowers us to love and serve
other people what are maybesome practical ways that we can
show love and service to otherpeople?
Bob Fleischmann (31:11):
You take on the things that need to be done
that seem less comfortable toyou.
Understanding God's love for usin Christ enables me to
sacrifice in ways I've neversacrificed before.
It makes me tolerate things Inever would have tolerated
before.
It also sets you free fromliving up to the world's foolish
(31:33):
standards for freedom.
There was a time when anycriticism would send me into an
airplane spin, and so what youcan do is you know if I want to
live in a contrary way.
Today's solution is you blowoff the world and you say I'll
just do my own thing and youlive with it.
Nowadays, you find that yourfreedom is in Christ.
(31:53):
He has set me free.
I am not bound by sin anymore,and all of a sudden, you develop
a little bit more of a Tefloncoating to the criticisms of the
world that are rooted inworldly standards and whether
they are selfishness in theworld whether they are—well, I
think a lot of the criticismsare rooted in selfishness,
(32:15):
really, if not all of them, inthat they encourage you to be
selfish, or somebody'spracticing their selfishness,
and you're not opening the doorwide enough for them to be
selfish.
Jeff Samelson (32:26):
Yeah, I guess I will approach that by
recognizing yes, this is, youknow, this episode's airing
close to American IndependenceDay.
That's part of what inspiredthe topic today.
And just comment on Christiansas citizens have this tremendous
opportunity to love and servetheir fellow citizens through
(32:50):
participating in our government,through supporting it and
things like that.
There is no particularChristian form of government.
Christians can live and serveand thrive under all sorts of
things, from the worst ofdictatorships to the most free
of societies or whatever.
But Christianity and Christiansare remarkably well-suited for
democracy, because so many ofthe principles that make
(33:15):
democracy work are things thatwe as Christians also value and
hold to.
We all see ourselves as equalbecause we recognize we're all
sinners and we all have the samecreator and responsible to the
same.
So the idea of setting asidethe idea that some people are
better than others or superior,that comes naturally to us.
The idea that we're existing,we have these freedoms, but at
(33:38):
the same time they're to serve.
Also.
Just a quote or two from one ofthe American founders who was
far from a paragon of Christianthought and orthodoxy, john
Adams.
He said that public virtuecannot exist in a nation without
private, and public virtue isthe only foundation of republics
(34:00):
and our constitution was madeonly for a moral and religious
people.
It is wholly inadequate to thegovernment of any other.
And what he's recognizing iswhat Christianity has always
taught that freedom, the libertythat we have in a society,
requires that it is entwinedwith responsibility and virtue
(34:21):
to go with it, that you don'tjust have liberty all by itself.
It has to go together withvirtue, and of course that's
what we have, particularly inChristianity.
I'd like to say that's where hegot the idea for it, and he
wasn't the only one to ever sayanything like that.
But in 1 Peter 2, it starts offsounding almost anti-democratic
(34:45):
.
Of course, lord, whether to theking as the supreme authority,
or to governors as those whohave been sent by him to punish
those who do what is wrong andto praise those who do what is
right For this is God's willthat you silence the ignorance
of foolish people by doing good,and then do this as free people
(35:06):
and do not use your freedom asa cover-up for evil, but use it
as servants of God Again,there's that oh yeah you've got
freedom.
You've got freedom, but it is tobe used for good.
It's not a trade-off, it's aboth-and kind of situation and
it's a wonderful gift andprivilege and it's something
that we particularly on aholiday like this, where we are
(35:29):
thinking about freedom a lot wethink well hey this is something
I can use, then, to bless myfellow citizens.
I have the opportunity becausethis is a free country to use my
Christian freedom in a way thatis going to be for everybody's
good, and not just my own.
Christa Potratz (35:47):
I am, I don't know, maybe I shouldn't be blown
away but by all the scripturereferences to this topic too,
and it just really seems likethis was talked about quite a
bit and just you know thisconcept of freedom and just how
we are just wired to think.
I think as humans too, and so Imean I just have really enjoyed
(36:10):
the scripture references inthis episode today as well.
But we hope everybody had awonderful Fourth of July and
thank you both for sharing thisepisode with us, and we look
forward to all of our listenersjoining us back next time.
Jeff Samelson (36:29):
Even if you happen to be listening from
outside the United States or asa non-American.
We hope you enjoy your Fourthof July, which isn't a holiday
for you.
Christa Potratz (36:37):
So, yes, thank you all, and we'll see you back
next time.
Bye.
Paul Snamiska (36:42):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of
the Life Challenges podcast fromChristian Life Resources.
Please consider subscribing tothis podcast, giving us a review
wherever you access it andsharing it with friends.
We're sure you have questionson today's topic or other life
issues.
Our goal is to help you throughthese tough topics and we want
you to know we're here to help.
(37:04):
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
suggestions for future episodes,at lifechallengesus or email us
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In addition to the podcasts, weinclude other valuable
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(37:25):
For more about our parentorganization, please visit
christianliferesourcescom.
May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge.
On today's episode.
Bob Fleischmann (00:02):
And in a representative form of governing
, which is what we have in theUnited States.
It's also why you participate.
You have a voice in what therules are.
I do not endorse this kind ofsequestering ourselves away from
that, because we are to be theyeast of society, permeating
(00:22):
into society, and the challengeis to do that and not become
like society.
Paul Snamiska (00:30):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources.
People today face manyopportunities and struggles when
it comes to issues of life anddeath, marriage and family,
health and science.
We're here to bring a freshbiblical perspective to these
issues and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz (00:57):
Hi and welcome back.
I'm Krista Potratz and I'm heretoday with Pastors Bob
Fleischman and Jeff Samuelson,and during this time of year we
tend to like, with IndependenceDay, talk about different things
related to freedom, and sotoday we wanted to talk about
this concept of Christianfreedom and how that differs
(01:18):
from freedom in the world.
So, as we start this topictoday, asking ourselves, what
does freedom in Christ actuallymean from a biblical perspective
?
Jeff Samelson (01:31):
Not quite straight from the Bible, but it
just somewhat.
That definitely is biblical.
Just start with a quote fromMartin Luther.
He wrote an entire treatise onthe freedom of the Christian,
and it was one of his earlierwritings, 1520.
And he said and you'll findvarious translations of this but
A Christian man is the mostfree Lord of all and subject to
(01:52):
none.
A Christian man is the mostdutiful servant of all and
subject to everyone.
And it's just a wonderful andpithy description of it.
In one sense, we're free.
Christ has set us free not justfrom sin, but from the burdens
of the law and all that.
And, yeah, wonderful.
Nobody has that authority overus except God.
(02:14):
But on the other hand,precisely because we are
Christians, we have a duty oflove toward everyone else, and
that means that we don't putourselves first, we don't do
what we want.
The freedom that we have wedon't necessarily express,
because we have that duty towardeveryone else as well.
(02:35):
So it's a complicated thing,it's real, but there is
complexity to it.
Bob Fleischmann (02:42):
I felt that in these latter years it just seems
like people have become moresimplistic.
So when they think of freedom,they think well, I want free, I
want to be free, I wanteverything to be free.
Nobody should tell me how tolive, nobody should tell me what
to do.
You know that kind of stuff,that kind of a freedom, and I
think you know when we talkabout and we've talked about it
(03:04):
before on this podcast aboutChristian nationalism this idea
flesh, in other words, there's afence around freedom, and that
(03:29):
doesn't make you less free.
In fact, I think a lot of timeswe don't think about what does.
If you really bind into thisidea of absolute freedom, do you
really know what you're askingfor?
That means you know freedom,not just to do what you think
you can do, but that means theperverted person living next
door wants to be free to do whathe wants to do, and that kind
(03:52):
of stuff.
In other words, freedom has afence around it.
Christa Potratz (03:56):
And it's maybe just good to talk about that
difference a little bit too,about how the freedom in Christ
differs from the freedom of thisworld, and I think you know how
you just kind of talk aboutlike having a fence on Christ
too.
There is, I mean, I don't knowif a fence, but just something
that maybe almost protects youfrom the consequences in a way.
(04:18):
I mean I think of like a kid ina candy store.
And if you just let a kid inthere and just said, okay, you
are free to eat whatever youwant I mean my kids definitely
would and just okay.
Like you have a stomach achenow, or you really don't feel
good or you really shouldn'thave eaten all of that.
(04:38):
Or now there's like gumeverywhere, it's all sticky and
gross and you know there'sconsequences to the freedom that
are not good for you as well.
Bob Fleischmann (04:52):
This idea of doing whatever you want is
deeply indoctrinated today inour culture.
I wrote an article just a weekor two ago in which I talked
about why people are leaving thechurch because you know,
they're not letting people befree to do with what they want
and I pulled out three examplesof freedom from children's
(05:13):
programming.
One is a song by Raven-Symonéthat says you don't have to be
like anybody else.
So what's the problem?
Why can't you be like yourself?
You're individual.
You might as well let it show.
That's freedom.
There's a show in which theentertainment is Gabby Duran and
the Unsittables and their lyricis I do my thing, you do your
(05:38):
thing.
When we don't fit in, we standout in the crowd and we shout it
loud I do my thing, I'm the oneand only Don't try to fit in.
But then you get into somethingvery popular like Frozen and
let it go.
The line in Let it Go from Elsais it's time to see what I can
do to test the limits and breakthrough.
(05:58):
No right, no wrong, no rulesfor me, I'm free.
We keep indoctrinating ourselveswith those kinds of notions and
then we wonder why, when thekids aren't getting their
homework done and you say youstop playing the video game.
We got to get the homework done.
They feel like you've infringedon them.
I'm free, no rules, and theworld teaches that.
(06:21):
So when we get intoIndependence Day, only the fool
doesn't even know the storybehind Independence Day.
It had nothing to do with thisabsolute, no moral consequences
type freedom.
It had to do with freedom topractice your religion, freedom
to do things that were notallowed, but still with offense
around it.
Jeff Samelson (06:41):
I think the world tends to define or think of
freedoms pretty much strictly inthe negative.
Freedom from, freedom fromrules, freedom from restrictions
, freedom from judgment, andeven I'm free to do whatever I
want, has the impliedclarification of and no one can
stop me.
That's again freedom from that,but freedom in Christ certainly
(07:06):
there is freedom from, and thatwe are free from guilt and fear
.
We are free from our captivityto sin, death and from Satan,
from their control.
Christ has set us free in allthose ways, but with Christian
freedom there's much more of apositive aspect, not of freedom
from, but freedom for.
(07:28):
He set us free to do what isgood and right and God-pleasing,
and that is something thatwasn't available to us before.
It wasn't possible for us.
Before we had been cleansed ofour sins and made pure and
righteous, we didn't have theoption of doing what was good
and right and God-pleasing.
I sometimes taught this with theexample of Alcatraz, that
(07:50):
imagine that you were imprisonedon Alcatraz.
This rock, this island in themidst of San Francisco Bay was
put there as an effective prisonbecause even if you could get
outside the walls, you couldn'tswim to safety or anything
because there were sharks inthose waters and it was really
cold.
Imagine that you are a prisonerand the warden comes to you and
(08:14):
says hey, I've got really goodnews, you've been pardoned,
you're free, but then doesabsolutely nothing to put you on
a boat back to the mainland.
What kind of freedom is that?
Okay, you're no longer aprisoner, you no longer have to
be punished for this, but youcan't do anything with that
freedom, with Christian freedom.
We were on that boat.
(08:34):
We're given the free pass tothe mainland and then we're able
to do the things that weweren't able to do before.
Christa Potratz (08:42):
Which scriptures can help us to
understand our freedom in Christ?
Jeff Samelson (08:46):
Well, In Galatians 5.13-15,.
After all, brothers, you werecalled to freedom.
Only, do not use your freedomas a starting point for your
sinful flesh.
Rather, serve one anotherthrough love.
In fact, the whole law issummed up in this one statement
love your neighbor as yourself.
But if you keep on biting anddevouring one another, watch out
(09:09):
that you are not consumed byone another.
It's really, you know, it's got.
That complete sense there offreedom is wonderful, you've got
it.
But if you just treat it as, oh, I'm free to do whatever,
you've lost it because you endup biting and devouring one
another, because everybody doeswhat they want and there's no
(09:30):
love.
Bob Fleischmann (09:31):
And it's interesting because you are free
to serve, which is interesting.
The word for serve, the Greekword, is doulos, which is you
get like doula and things likethat from, but it's the idea of
you're free to serve, serveothers.
And what translation did you?
That's the EHV.
Jeff Samelson (09:50):
Okay, yeah it's interesting.
Bob Fleischmann (09:52):
Those of you who've got the NIV 2011,.
You'll see that it talks abouthumble service, which I find
interesting because the wordhumble is not in there, but it's
talking about a biblical—Ithink they were trying to
incorporate the biblical conceptof love, which is sacrificial,
putting others ahead of yourself.
And then it says but in thatcontext, you're free.
(10:14):
Now, does everybody rememberwhen the first challenge to
freedom and the first challengeto that and that was Cain,
having killed Abel, you rememberCain saying am I my brother's
keeper?
And, of course, what's theimplication?
The implication, well, yes, youare.
By asking the question, youknow he was condemning himself,
he rejected freedom, he wantedhis own version of freedom.
(10:37):
And when people are seekingtheir own version of freedom,
you're going to ask yourself areyou pursuing the Cain version
of freedom?
I am not my brother's keeper, Ican do what I want, and my
brother kind of got in the wayso I killed him.
But the thing is is that we arefree to serve, and the idea is
that you have this wide latitudeto serve others.
(11:00):
Some people might serve them bytending to their wounds the
Good Samaritan.
Others might serve them byproviding food or providing
water.
Others might serve them byhelping them out with money.
The story of the Good Samaritanis a real slap in the face to
people who thought that they haddowned the idea of Christian
(11:23):
love in that here you have aSamaritan with a corrupt
religion who showed incrediblesacrifice for the sake of
another person, with noexpectation of a return.
There wasn't like a I'll dothis for you, but you got to pay
me back, you got to make megood on this, and so forth.
That was his idea.
You know, all of the exampleson being free to serve are
(11:47):
pretty, pretty sacrificial and,of course, the ultimate being
Christ himself prettysacrificial, and, of course, the
ultimate being Christ himself.
Christa Potratz (11:54):
Leslie KENDRICK , why do you think the world is
so caught up with this idea offreedom, with being
self-expression or autonomy?
Why is there just so much ofthat in the worldly concept of
freedom?
Jeff Samelson (12:07):
RICK.
Well, it fits with our sinfulnature very well, I mean, that's
what our sinful nature wants tohear.
And so we latch on to this ideaof liberty, that is, no chains
on me, I can do whatever.
And there are good things tothat.
We don't want to negate thatidea, but like, oh, this means I
(12:27):
can do what I want.
Well, that's what I want.
I want to be able to dowhatever I want, and it's one of
the sad things about theprogress that we have made as a
society, as a culture, as acivilization or whatever.
We've got so many things thatallow us to live free of
restrictions.
And I'm not just talking aboutwell, now I'm free to be the
(12:50):
woman that I was never born tobe, because science and medicine
have allowed you know all thesethings but just the idea that
it used to be that you weren'tfree to always speak your mind
in every situation because youhad to live in a community and
your reputation mattered,because if you destroyed your
reputation, nobody would dobusiness with you and you
(13:12):
wouldn't be able to make aliving.
Or if you spoke your mind atwork, you might lose your job
and then your children would gohungry because there were
restrictions that were just areflection of life itself.
In so many things, the morepeople feel well, I don't need
to worry about that anymore.
And the natural restrictionsthat tempered the idea of
(13:37):
freedom have slowly drifted away, and that's made people more
likely to just latch on to themost extreme idea of what
freedom is.
Bob Fleischmann (13:48):
And that's why, when I think of a single term
to describe society, the wordshallow comes to mind.
People tend to not thinkthrough what they want.
You know, when they definefreedom, when they argue,
proclaim, protest for freedom,they don't follow it all the way
through.
So they say people should befree to do what they want, or to
(14:09):
live the way they wish, and soforth.
Well, at some point there'sgoing to have to be a line drawn
.
How do you intend to draw thatline?
On what basis do you intend todraw that line?
If we call it the fullestexpression of love, based on
whose standard?
What standard?
Society seems to want to diluteeverything down to a bumper
(14:30):
sticker, to a little plaque youcan hang on the wall and, as a
result, they have no depth, nothought about what it means.
And when you look at theGalatians passage, you know.
And it talks about being freeto serve.
Maybe you know and not.
Maybe this is being facetious,but you know.
(14:50):
But maybe there's somethingabout serving.
That is the ultimate freedom,instead of thinking it as
slavery.
Or am I my brother's keeper?
You start with the premise I ammy brother's keeper.
Now, what are the free things Ican do to serve?
Jeff Samelson (15:06):
Part of your question was how does the
world's idea of freedom fallshort of the reality?
How does the world's idea offreedom fall short of the
reality?
Political freedoms and socialfreedoms, if you want to call
them that, are there for thislife only.
They really deal only with ouroutward behavior, our actions
and things like that.
But freedom in Christ is foreternity and it deals with our
(15:29):
heart, mind and soul.
Let me read a longer biblicalpassage going back to the root
of this.
This is from Romans 6.
Thanks be to God that, althoughyou used to be slaves of sin,
you became obedient from theheart to the pattern of the
teaching into which you wereplaced.
After you were set free fromsin, you became slaves of
righteousness.
I'm speaking in a human way,because of the weakness of your
(15:51):
flesh.
Indeed, just as you offeredyour members as slaves to
impurity and lawlessness,resulting in more lawlessness,
so now offer your members in thesame way as slaves to
righteousness, resulting insanctification.
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from
righteousness.
So what kind of fruit did youhave then?
They were things of which youare now ashamed.
(16:12):
Yes, the final result of thosethings is death.
But now, since you were setfree from sin and have become
slaves to God.
You have your fruit, resultingin sanctification, and the final
result is eternal life, for thewages of sin is death, but the
undeserved gift of God iseternal life in Christ Jesus,
our Lord.
(16:33):
That alone is a huge differencebetween the sinful idea of
freedom and the spiritual one.
Christa Potratz (16:44):
It is this life versus eternity as Christians
sometimes we at least I dosometimes wish like, oh man,
just like lived on an island orin a bubble, or it would just be
easier to be off by myself.
But that isn't the way that weare.
You know, we live in a culture,and so what are some of the
(17:05):
cultural lies about freedom thatChristians, specifically, are
tempted to believe?
Bob Fleischmann (17:14):
One is the idea that I can define freedom for
myself.
So, I think Christians havefallen into this, like the gay
lifestyle is not for me, but toeach their own.
Christa Potratz (17:28):
Or God will decide yeah, right, and so we
tend to want to step back.
Bob Fleischmann (17:33):
But the problem is that when you step outside
and I know I've used the analogyof a fence freedom within this
fence, but when you step outsideof the front fence, you're
playing with rules that are notvalid.
You know, jeff talked aboutChristians.
Remember that there is thissecular way of looking at
freedom and then there's thespiritual way of looking at
(17:54):
freedom.
We live in the world, but youcan't live like the world or of
the world.
The world is going to grantfreedoms and so forth that
Christians will never becomfortable with or you
shouldn't be comfortable with.
But it's a surrender to theworld to allow freedoms that are
harmful to go on.
(18:15):
I remember being criticizedbecause of something I had said
that was critical of genderrights, of gay rights and so
forth.
And they said well, thatdoesn't sound very loving, it's
not very Christian of you.
And I said well, it's also notvery Christian or very loving to
allow people to live with theillusion that you can thumb your
(18:37):
nose at God, that sometimes Ilove God and I love when God
says we should all be loving andso forth, but when I differ
with God, then God must be wrongand I'm right and I said I
don't think it's very loving forChristians who know better, to
allow that notion to stand Now Iprobably am deserving of
criticism if I should have beenmore loving in the way I offered
(18:59):
the criticism, but at the sametime I think the mistake is that
it's not loving to allow peopleto live with their mistaken
notions of what freedom ispeople?
Jeff Samelson (19:12):
to live with their mistaken notions of what
freedom is, and Bob's doing agreat job of outlining the idea
that Christian freedom means wedon't have to follow God's rules
or pay any attention to them.
Sometimes we even come acrossChristians I think particularly
here in the United States whohave this idea well, because I'm
a Christian, none of society'srules apply to me either.
I'm a Christian, I answer to ahigher authority than you.
So, yeah, that law that youmade that doesn't apply to me
(19:32):
either.
I'm a Christian, I answer to ahigher authority than you.
So, yeah, that law that youmade that doesn't apply to me.
I don't have to follow that IfI choose to.
That's one thing, but otherwiseI can just ignore it.
And it's rarely quite soblatant as that.
But I've come across a goodnumber of Christians who just
kind of have this idea.
It's like, well, we're special,we don't really have to obey
those rules because we've gotGod and so we have our own
(19:55):
authority here.
Bob Fleischmann (19:59):
And that's not the way God set things up and in
a representative form ofgoverning, which is what we have
in the United States.
It's also why you participate.
You have a voice in what therules are.
Have a voice in what the rulesare.
I do not endorse this kind ofsequestering ourselves away from
that, because we are to be theyeast of society, permeating
(20:21):
into society, and the challengeis to do that and not become
like society.
Christa Potratz (20:26):
So how does surrendering to Christ actually
lead to more freedom rather thanless?
Jeff Samelson (20:32):
And I think we've kind of touched on this a
little bit too, but oh, this isthe opportunity to bring in some
really good dogmatic theologyor whatever.
But state it very simply Beforewe were saved, before we came
to Christ and had faith and wereredeemed, the only freedom we
had was freedom to sin.
You know, some have expressedit as freedom only to choose
(20:54):
your chains.
You may have felt, oh yeah, I'mfree to do whatever.
Yeah, but whatever you do isgoing to be sinful and that
sends you to hell.
But after we have been saved,after we have been brought to
faith, we have the freedom nowto do what is good and right.
But, yeah, we still also havethe freedom to sin.
But why would you want to?
And that's a tremendousdifference in what you are
(21:18):
actually free to do.
Bob Fleischmann (21:20):
You know, part of the problem too is when we
think surrender again, we'rethinking like in the world's
terms.
You surrender to an enemy, yousurrender to people who want to
make you or force you to dosomething you don't want to do,
so you surrender.
But the biblical concept ofsurrendering to God,
surrendering to Christ, isprobably a little bit like the
(21:44):
analogy of a really greatmarriage.
I deeply, deeply love my wifeand so I surrender my
convenience to her.
I surrender other aspirations.
I have just to work for her, tocare for her, to watch over her
.
The idea of surrendering toChrist let's not forget we're
(22:05):
talking about perfectbenevolence here.
He's the one who did for youwhat nobody else could, not even
the most faithful spouse could,and so you surrender to it.
It's the deepest of allexpressions of love is when you
surrender to Christ and there isnothing about it.
That is slavery in the negativesense.
(22:27):
It's servitude with thegreatest of pleasure.
Well, and you know, kind oflook at it this way when you're
dating and you find out that theperson you're dating really
just loves Blue Moon ice cream,all of a sudden, even if you
don't like Blue Moon ice cream,you, for their birthday, you buy
(22:50):
them Blue Moon ice cream andyou're surrendering what
normally you would be pursuingfor their benefit, because it's
your way of honoring them.
You know, if we get rid of thenegativeness of surrender and
find that there's exceptionalbeauty in it, all of a sudden
it's like what can I do now toplease you, god?
(23:14):
I always go back to that psalmthat says you know, I rejoiced
when they said to me let's come,let us go to the house of the
Lord.
When I was a kid I thoughtyou've got to be kidding me.
This is the most boring thing Ido in my week is going to
church singing songs.
I don't like singing.
Everything about it wasnegative.
But when you grow in your faith, surrendering to Christ becomes
(23:38):
your ambition in life.
It becomes what you look for.
Christa Potratz (23:48):
I loved that verse you read from Romans too,
because it really kind oftouched on a lot of that stuff
and it just this kind of thisidea that we're always like a
slave to something right andwe're always kind of chained to
something and you know, even toI've heard just recently I was
kind of like you know hearingpeople's testimonies with people
that did not believe in God andthen now that they do believe,
(24:13):
they had a conversion.
And it's just really neatsometimes too, to hear people
like that talk, because you seehow they really were so absorbed
in the ways of the world andhow they really thought that
they bought into all the liesthat the world told them and
they were so into trying to getsuccess, trying to get money,
(24:36):
trying to just indulge in allthese things and they just there
was something missing in theirlife and they just felt so empty
inside.
And then the joy that they hadin Christ and how they realized,
man, you know, I was fightingso hard and thought all these
other things were going to makeme happy and bring me success,
(25:00):
and now it's just so amazing tohear those people how much they
love the Lord and how the Lordwas the thing in their life that
was missing and how they justfeel so free now in what God has
done for them.
And so it's just I don't know,it's just like a really cool
(25:23):
thing to think about and justthis idea that that whole like
when we think we're free, we'renot free, but when we are free
then we are.
So we're going to keep goinghere.
What role does the Holy Spiritplay in helping us walk in
freedom day by day?
Jeff Samelson (25:41):
All the things that he does for us and
everything else in life.
He gives us guidance, he givesus wisdom, he gives us
encouragement and, particularly,gives us strength.
Strength and faith inparticular, which then helps us
to live free of guilt and fearand the control of sin and Satan
, and then also then inspiresand moves us forward towards all
the good that we now reallywant to do.
Bob Fleischmann (26:05):
Holy Spirit uses the means of grace, god's
Word, the sacraments and soforth, and I think there's
clearly a corollary betweenexposure to the Word and finding
your freedom in doing thethings of God, freedom to serve,
to serve others.
Because how else can youexplain why, when you were less
(26:27):
spiritual or less understandingof Scripture, were you also less
inclined to find freedom inserving and sought freedom in
the things that the world wouldoffer?
But as you became increasinglyexposed to the Word of God, it
really is a miraculous changethat takes place, because the
Bible hasn't changed From thetime I was a child to the time I
(26:50):
was an adult.
The Bible is still the Bible,it just hasn't changed.
And the preachers still readthe scriptures, read the Bible
readings, stuff in church, andit just felt like at times it
didn't stick.
But you see, through carefulworking of the Holy Spirit,
change does occur.
You begin to understand, youbegin to pursue and there are
(27:14):
things I understand now that Ithought was nonsense when I was
a child.
The psalmist says ask God toforgive him for the sins of the
youth.
And it's why, it's because theHoly Spirit is that maturing
element in your life and sooften we make the mistake of
cutting ourselves off from thatbecause we feel it's not doing
(27:34):
anything for me, when Scripturesays people are going to be
looking for things to tell themwhat their itching ears want to
hear.
That's a lot of times whatpeople do with church is that I
want to be free to do this.
I want to be free to think thisway.
I want to be free toparticipate in this kind of
lifestyle.
So I'm just going to lookaround and find the kind of
church I just was reading lastnight.
(27:55):
My wife has gotten hooked onWheel of Fortune, which is
painful for me, but hey, okay,we'll do it.
And Ryan Seacrest the commentcame up that he's an ordained
minister.
And I thought Ryan Seacrest anordained minister.
So I did some digging around.
He's from the Universal LifeChurch, which is they just
ordain anybody who wants to beordained for any reason at all,
(28:18):
so he could do weddings, andthat's what he is.
You find what your itching earswant to hear, because I would
suppose that that just suits himjust fine, being like that.
The point is is that freedomrequires understanding.
Christa Potratz (28:40):
The point is that freedom requires
understanding and you're notgoing to understand by isolating
yourself from the tool that theHoly Spirit uses to change you.
Jeff Samelson (28:49):
How does true Christian freedom or how does
true freedom in Christ affectour identity, relationships and
purpose?
A lot of people have the imageof Christians.
A lot of people outside thechurch have the image of
Christians as being drudges.
Yeah, they have no freedom.
They have no fun never the lifeof any party or anything like
that.
It's like who would want a lifelike that?
But we know the truth about whowe are the great, great and
(29:11):
famous thing that Jesus said inJohn 8, if you remain in my word
, you are really my disciples.
You will also know the truthand the truth will set you free
Again one of the things that theHoly Spirit does.
Going back to the previousquestion or whatever, so we know
that we don't have chains.
We are free to move through theworld and to do and to be the
(29:34):
very things that Christ hascalled us to do and to be.
We have identity in Christ.
We are new creatures.
We're completely different fromeverybody else, so we don't
have to judge ourselves or bejudged by the non-Christian
standards of what freedom is.
We know better and what we haveis better than anything else
(29:55):
that the world or our previouslives have to offer.
Bob Fleischmann (29:58):
And along that same line, when Jesus was in the
Garden of Gethsemane and Peterswiped off the guy's ear and
Jesus said I could call onlegions of angels and he didn't.
He's hanging on the cross.
He could have come down fromthe cross and he didn't.
He's hanging on the cross.
He could have come down fromthe cross but he didn't.
One of the things that findingyour freedom in Christ is.
(30:20):
When you study the life ofChrist, you have to ask yourself
so what pushed him to be likethat?
What changed him?
And you have to be willing toquestion.
What the world force-feeds youto believe is freedom,
especially when it challengesthe way Christ describes it, the
way scriptures describe it.
(30:41):
So I think you're empoweredthat way by it, forces you, it
gives you some grounding toquestion and challenge to
question and challenge.
Christa Potratz (30:51):
Yeah, when we talk about freedom and Christ
and you talked a lot about howit empowers us to love and serve
other people what are maybesome practical ways that we can
show love and service to otherpeople?
Bob Fleischmann (31:11):
You take on the things that need to be done
that seem less comfortable toyou.
Understanding God's love for usin Christ enables me to
sacrifice in ways I've neversacrificed before.
It makes me tolerate things Inever would have tolerated
before.
It also sets you free fromliving up to the world's foolish
(31:33):
standards for freedom.
There was a time when anycriticism would send me into an
airplane spin, and so what youcan do is you know if I want to
live in a contrary way.
Today's solution is you blowoff the world and you say I'll
just do my own thing and youlive with it.
Nowadays, you find that yourfreedom is in Christ.
(31:53):
He has set me free.
I am not bound by sin anymore,and all of a sudden, you develop
a little bit more of a Tefloncoating to the criticisms of the
world that are rooted inworldly standards and whether
they are selfishness in theworld whether they are—well, I
think a lot of the criticismsare rooted in selfishness,
(32:15):
really, if not all of them, inthat they encourage you to be
selfish, or somebody'spracticing their selfishness,
and you're not opening the doorwide enough for them to be
selfish.
Jeff Samelson (32:26):
Yeah, I guess I will approach that by
recognizing yes, this is, youknow, this episode's airing
close to American IndependenceDay.
That's part of what inspiredthe topic today.
And just comment on Christiansas citizens have this tremendous
opportunity to love and servetheir fellow citizens through
(32:50):
participating in our government,through supporting it and
things like that.
There is no particularChristian form of government.
Christians can live and serveand thrive under all sorts of
things, from the worst ofdictatorships to the most free
of societies or whatever.
But Christianity and Christiansare remarkably well-suited for
democracy, because so many ofthe principles that make
(33:15):
democracy work are things thatwe as Christians also value and
hold to.
We all see ourselves as equalbecause we recognize we're all
sinners and we all have the samecreator and responsible to the
same.
So the idea of setting asidethe idea that some people are
better than others or superior,that comes naturally to us.
The idea that we're existing,we have these freedoms, but at
(33:38):
the same time they're to serve.
Also.
Just a quote or two from one ofthe American founders who was
far from a paragon of Christianthought and orthodoxy, john
Adams.
He said that public virtuecannot exist in a nation without
private, and public virtue isthe only foundation of republics
(34:00):
and our constitution was madeonly for a moral and religious
people.
It is wholly inadequate to thegovernment of any other.
And what he's recognizing iswhat Christianity has always
taught that freedom, the libertythat we have in a society,
requires that it is entwinedwith responsibility and virtue
(34:21):
to go with it, that you don'tjust have liberty all by itself.
It has to go together withvirtue, and of course that's
what we have, particularly inChristianity.
I'd like to say that's where hegot the idea for it, and he
wasn't the only one to ever sayanything like that.
But in 1 Peter 2, it starts offsounding almost anti-democratic
(34:45):
.
Of course, lord, whether to theking as the supreme authority,
or to governors as those whohave been sent by him to punish
those who do what is wrong andto praise those who do what is
right For this is God's willthat you silence the ignorance
of foolish people by doing good,and then do this as free people
(35:06):
and do not use your freedom asa cover-up for evil, but use it
as servants of God Again,there's that oh yeah you've got
freedom.
You've got freedom, but it is tobe used for good.
It's not a trade-off, it's aboth-and kind of situation and
it's a wonderful gift andprivilege and it's something
that we particularly on aholiday like this, where we are
(35:29):
thinking about freedom a lot wethink well hey this is something
I can use, then, to bless myfellow citizens.
I have the opportunity becausethis is a free country to use my
Christian freedom in a way thatis going to be for everybody's
good, and not just my own.
Christa Potratz (35:47):
I am, I don't know, maybe I shouldn't be blown
away but by all the scripturereferences to this topic too,
and it just really seems likethis was talked about quite a
bit and just you know thisconcept of freedom and just how
we are just wired to think.
I think as humans too, and so Imean I just have really enjoyed
(36:10):
the scripture references inthis episode today as well.
But we hope everybody had awonderful Fourth of July and
thank you both for sharing thisepisode with us, and we look
forward to all of our listenersjoining us back next time.
Jeff Samelson (36:29):
Even if you happen to be listening from
outside the United States or asa non-American.
We hope you enjoy your Fourthof July, which isn't a holiday
for you.
Christa Potratz (36:37):
So, yes, thank you all, and we'll see you back
next time.
Bye.
Paul Snamiska (36:42):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of
the Life Challenges podcast fromChristian Life Resources.
Please consider subscribing tothis podcast, giving us a review
wherever you access it andsharing it with friends.
We're sure you have questionson today's topic or other life
issues.
Our goal is to help you throughthese tough topics and we want
you to know we're here to help.
(37:04):
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
suggestions for future episodes,at lifechallengesus or email us
at podcast atchristianliferesourcescom.
In addition to the podcasts, weinclude other valuable
information at lifechallengesus,so be sure to check it out.
(37:25):
For more about our parentorganization, please visit
christianliferesourcescom.
May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge.
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