March 11, 2025 • 33 mins
Imagine standing before a mirror every morning and declaring aloud: “I am a redeemed child of God. I am a forgiven child of God. I am a saved child of God.” According to our guest John Schuetze, LPC, DMin, MDiv, BC-TMH, this simple practice can transform how we understand repentance and reshape our relationship with guilt and shame.
In this profound exploration of Christian identity and repentance, Professor Schuetze draws from his 15 years as a pastor, 28 years teaching at Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary, and his ongoing work as a licensed professional counselor at Christian Family Solutions specializing in grief, trauma, and marital therapy. He unpacks repentance not as a mere acknowledgment of wrongdoing, but as a fundamental reorientation of how we see ourselves.
The conversation reveals how sin affects us in three distinct ways: our own sinful actions, the painful effects of others’ sins against us, and the general presence of sin in our fallen world. Each dimension requires a different response, but all must be addressed through the lens of our primary identity as God’s children.
For those struggling with persistent guilt despite knowing God’s forgiveness, Schuetze offers both spiritual wisdom and practical neurological insights. He explains how negative thought patterns create well-worn neural pathways that must be gradually replaced with healthier, gospel-centered ones. “It's not a perfect faith that saves us,” he reminds listeners, “it’s Christ that saves us.”
As we enter the Lenten season, this episode serves as a timely reminder that while sin is indeed serious—“we don't have a little Savior who died for a bunch of little sins”—God’s grace is even greater. True repentance means living in that tension, continually returning to our identity in Christ while striving for progress, not perfection, in our daily walk.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Scheutze (00:19):
On today's episode… is what we get from
Jesus.
Progress is what we get as wegrow in our Christian life with
sanctification.
Paul Snamiska (00:29):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources.
People today face manyopportunities and struggles when
it comes to issues of life anddeath, marriage and family,
health and science.
We're here to bring a freshbiblical perspective to these
issues and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz (00:56):
Hi and welcome back.
I'm Krista Potratz and I'm heretoday with Pastor Jeff
Samuelson, and we also have aspecial guest joining us today.
We have Pastor and ProfessorJohn Schutze with us today.
We're really excited to havehim on the podcast and the topic
that we're going to bediscussing with him is the topic
(01:18):
of repentance, and so just veryexcited to have you on today
and we'd just love it if you'dstart by telling us a little bit
about yourself.
John Scheutze (01:28):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
So, as was mentioned, I'm JohnSchutze.
I served as a pastor for 15years and in the past 28 years I
served as a professor atWisconsin Lutheran Seminary,
teaching systematic theology,pastoral theology maybe, to
unpack those.
Systematic theology is doctrineand then pastoral theology is
(01:52):
the practical application ofthat, and in pastoral theology I
especially focused on pastoralcounseling and I also served as
the campus counselor on thecampus of Wisconsin Lutheran
Seminary.
I'm also a licensedprofessional counselor on staff
at Christian Family Solutions,where I focus on grief, loss and
(02:15):
trauma and also marital therapy.
I married my wife and I live inColumbia, tennessee.
We have four grown children and10 grandchildren.
Christa Potratz (02:26):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much for being ontoday.
Like I said, we're going totalk about this topic of
repentance, and one of thethings to maybe just kind of
start with is just generallydefining sin and what happens
when we sin.
John Scheutze (02:43):
So, in a simple way, sin is any time we violate
God's law.
That's the simple definition.
But of course it's more complexthan that, because if we divide
it up between believer andunbeliever, the main sin of an
unbeliever is their unbelief,whereas for us, as Christians,
we have that daily sin that westruggle against, but yet we're
(03:07):
living in a state of grace.
And so it's really a bigdifference here between believer
and unbeliever when we talkabout sin.
Because with unbelievers wesometimes think well, you know,
how do I change their outwardbehavior?
We focus on the second table oflaw, and that's what
unbelievers often do too.
(03:27):
They focus on certain aspectsof the second table of law, the
commandments that they can keepor that they want to keep and
there are a lot of good peoplein the world who do some very
helpful and kind things toothers.
But if they haven't kept thefirst table of law in other
words, honoring God, loving theLord, their God, with all their
(03:49):
heart, soul, strength and mind,they're still living in unbelief
, which is the main sin whichthey need to repent of and then
to unpack that matter of sineven more.
You know, I like to look at itfrom three different angles.
We live with our own sin, thethings that we do wrong.
(04:10):
We live with the effects of thesins of others that often
affect us very directly.
And then, of course, we livewith the presence of sin in the
world, and all of those threeaffect us in different ways.
You know, we live with our ownsin and that can leave us with
feelings of guilt and shame,even as Christians, after we
(04:31):
know our sins are forgiven, butstill we continue to beat
ourselves up over them.
The devil continues to accuseus of those sins.
Then there's living with thesins of others and I deal with
that a lot in my counseling, ingrief loss and trauma, because I
work with a fair number ofsurvivors of childhood abuse,
(04:53):
and so they're living in a veryprofound way with the effects of
other people's sin, the abusethat they endured along the way,
especially as children.
And then, of course, with grief, loss and trauma.
You also deal with the presenceof sin in the world, whether
it's natural disasters orwhether it's just a matter of
(05:15):
death which is the result of sin.
So that's just kind ofunpacking the simple concept of
sin, but it affects us in somany different ways.
Christa Potratz (05:26):
Thank you for doing that, because that really
does pull it apart to make youthink a little bit more about it
.
And I think too, even when wethink of trying to minister to
people or talk to people, evenjust in these terms of
differences with viewpointspertaining to life too.
(05:47):
Sometimes, yeah, it's like thebiggest hurdle is the unbelief
and just remembering.
Jeff Samelson (05:58):
Yeah, and one of the things that goes along with
unbelief very often is sometimesignorance.
Sometimes it's a deliberateunwillingness to consider the
reality of sin, particularly ofyour own.
It never happened to me Ididn't do that many funerals but
there are plenty of stories outthere of pastors at least our
well confessional Lutheranpastors doing a funeral service
(06:20):
for someone, often who wasn't avery strong member of the church
.
But some relative comes upafterward really angry about the
sermon.
You called Jack a sinner inyour sermon.
Well, yeah, so are we all.
But they reserve that term forthe stuff that they consider
really bad and it's notsomething that they realize is
(06:42):
in that basic sense of this isan offense against God.
It's not meeting the mark inany way.
John Scheutze (06:49):
Yeah, that is so true.
Christa Potratz (06:51):
Well then, you know, after we kind of define
sin, taking a look now atrepentance.
So how would we go aboutdefining repentance?
John Scheutze (07:00):
Well, I think, looking at that same paradigm of
believer versus unbeliever,well, I think, looking at that
same paradigm of believer versusunbeliever, for an unbeliever,
repentance is turning away fromsin, acknowledging their own
sinfulness and turning to Christfor forgiveness, and of course,
we know that that's somethingonly the Holy Spirit can work
through the message of thegospel, of the gospel.
(07:21):
But then for us as believersand I don't know how well we
emphasize this, we know this,but I think we're better at and
correct me if I'm wrong, I'mjust looking at it from my
perspective but I think we'rebetter with the law than we are
with the gospel.
And I think we're better at itbecause we understand it, we
(07:41):
live it, we can relate to it,but the gospel is such a foreign
thing.
And so what I really need toemphasize to people and I
realize I'm dealing with aclientele in my counseling
profession that are strugglingwith sin on all those different
levels, but what they reallystruggle with is knowing and
(08:05):
confessing the fact that I am achild of God, I am a redeemed
child of God, I'm a forgivenchild of God, I'm a saved child
of God, and I work with them onthat.
And it's really an importantbeginning place because out of
that flows their ability tomanage and cope with everything
(08:26):
that sin has thrown at them.
In a sense, whether it's theirown sin and you know, often
they're struggling with theirown sins and with people who are
struggling with trauma and havebeen abused in various ways,
they can fall into any number ofunhealthy behaviors, whether
(08:47):
it's substance abuse, or I'vehad some that struggle with
gambling, that struggle withshoplifting, that struggle with
promiscuity.
It can just go on and on and on.
And what's important tounderstand is that we don't
excuse the sin, but we dounderstand it, that it's kind of
(09:07):
been a negative copingmechanism for them.
And so how do you help themreplace that negative one with
helping coping mechanisms?
Well, it really begins withtheir understanding that I am a
child of God and I live in astate of grace because God has
worked that repentance in myheart.
(09:27):
He has led me to turn to him asmy savior, and that's what's
going to help me manage the sinfrom many different angles,
whether it's my own sin and thenegative patterns that I've
gotten into, whether it'smanaging the effects of the sins
of others that have had on mylives or simply dealing with the
presence of sin in this world.
(09:48):
I think is such an importantfactor when we begin from that
starting point of I'm a child ofGod and so I like to focus on
the gospel first rather thanreally hitting them with the law
, because so many times,especially in mental health,
(10:10):
they know the law, they'refeeling guilty, they're feeling
shame, and so what they reallystruggle with is the gospel you
find that repentance becomes anissue kind of between the
spouses, in the sense of well,he says he's repented, but I
don't see it, or I don't knowwhat repentance would look like
(10:31):
for me.
Jeff Samelson (10:32):
I don't know what it is.
Can you elaborate on that atall?
John Scheutze (10:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
And, of course, repentance andforgiveness.
When you talk about a couple, amarriage situation, as you
mentioned there, you're dealingwith repentance and really
forgiveness on two differentlevels.
We repent to God because of oursin and he forgives us.
That's instantaneous,horizontal level.
(11:08):
Where we repent to our marriagepartner or other family members
, then the forgiveness is on ahorizontal level and that can
often take time because it'spart of our Christian life of
sanctification and that's neverperfect, it's never complete.
And so people will doubt well,has that person really repented?
Because they've done, theycontinue to do it.
And, yeah, sin is a habit,we're never going to avoid it
(11:29):
perfectly.
But I emphasize to people youknow, we're looking for progress
, not perfection.
Perfection is what we get fromJesus.
Progress is what we get as wegrow in our Christian life of
sanctification.
So that whole matter ofrepentance and forgiveness is so
closely tied together.
But what can make it complex is,you know, is the person sorry
(11:50):
for what they've done?
Do they own it?
Are they working on it?
Are they admitting it to theother person or are they kind of
turning it back on the otherperson?
Well, if you hadn't done that,I wouldn't have done this.
A backhanded repentance, if youwill, repentance with
qualifications, and that happensmany times too, where they sort
(12:14):
of repent but they also putsome of it on the other person,
which may be the case too.
But even if somebody did saysomething to me that I didn't
like or that hurt me, it didn'tgive me the right to lash out or
say something or do something.
Owning it is so important.
Christa Potratz (12:34):
Yeah, I often just think about that too.
When we deal with God, on theother end is perfection, and
when we deal with people, on theother end is perfection, and
when we deal with people on theother end is a sinful human
being.
And so sometimes, like we'relooking at least I have you know
almost like looking for how Godforgives me or what happens.
(12:57):
I'm almost expecting that fromanother person, because it's so,
because it's perfect when Goddoes it, and you don't get that
when you deal with other people.
John Scheutze (13:09):
Yeah, we often have unrealistic expectations of
the other person and healthymarriages aren't those where you
have two perfect or nearlyperfect people.
I think we know that.
But healthy marriages are wherepeople are in a mindset of okay
, there are certain things I maynot like about my marriage
partner.
(13:29):
There are certain things mymarriage partner may not like
about me, but we tend to focuson the positive things and, of
course, all of those flow out ofour Christian faith and my
recognition that I am a childwith God and that my spouse, in
a Christian marriage, that he orshe is a child of God.
(13:49):
And you know, how can I beChrist to that person?
How can I treat that person asChrist would treat them?
You know, I work with what Icall Ephesians 5 skills.
What does that look like in amarriage?
On a practical level?
God gives us the principle inEphesians 5, but that's pretty
general.
Not that it's not beautiful,but it is pretty general.
(14:10):
It's Christ loved the church.
Okay, what does that look like?
And try to unpack that for them.
It means that, okay, I want mymarriage partner to feel
cherished, I want them to feelvalued, I want them to feel
loved.
I want them to feel loved.
I want them to feel respected.
That's how Christ would treatthem and that's how Christ
treats me.
So kind of unpacking some ofthat.
Christa Potratz (14:32):
When we talk about our relationship with God.
Why do people fail to repent?
Is it just maybe sometimes theydon't know what their sin is?
Or, you know, why would peoplemaybe not get to that place of
repentance?
John Scheutze (14:52):
Many in our society have worked really hard
to take God out of the picture.
And again, you have to workreally hard because there's so
much evidence, you know the foolsays in his heart there is no
God.
We have that voice within us,that conscience, telling us that
there is a God.
We have evidence in the worldaround us that there is a God,
(15:14):
and so it's not easy to suppressthat, but we suppress it
because we don't want to be heldaccountable, whether it's in
life issues, you know, I don'twant to be held accountable, but
I want to do what I want, andif it means taking the life of
an unborn or being in control ofmy own fate at the end, or
anything in between, I want tobe able to call the shots.
(15:36):
So I think that's why anunbeliever, will you know,
resist repenting because I don'twant to be held accountable by
anyone, and it's very much apart of our individualistic
culture in North America andeven in the Western world.
I'm responsible for what I do,and if you don't like it, well,
(15:58):
that's fine.
And you do what you want, andas long as it doesn't affect me,
that's fine.
But then, when you talk about abeliever, there are so many
things that can complicate it.
As I mentioned, a person'sexperience growing up can
complicate it and of course, Ialso deal with that a lot in
(16:21):
marital therapy, because whenone or the other, or both, have
come from a very difficultfamily environment, that's going
to play out in their presentrelationship because they
haven't seen it modeled growingup.
Yeah, and to a certain extentthey have the genetic makeup
(16:43):
which plays a part too, whetherit's a personality issue, a
narcissistic personality issue,which could be very prominent
and affect the maritalrelationship in many different
ways, or whether it's somethingelse.
So it can be a lot of thosefactors that complicate the
(17:04):
whole matter of marriagesituation.
You know, is this an individualissue that one or the other has
(17:30):
to work on or is this a maritalissue that the two of them have
to work on?
Because those are two verydifferent things.
Christa Potratz (17:39):
So when you we'll take it from a Christian
perspective when you dosomething and okay, you realize
that it's a sin, you repent, butthen you still feel guilty,
(18:07):
have given it to the Lord,you've said that you're sorry,
you've repented but you stilljust feel really bad about One
chart that I work with or oneimage that I work with is.
John Scheutze (18:14):
At the center of this image is the fact that
we're the child of God.
That's our identity and we talkso much about, you know,
identity, gender identity and soon.
Or I identify with my work ormy job, or my role, my
relationship with others.
Our identity is I'm a child ofGod and we're even our gender,
(18:37):
you know, neither male norfemale.
Our ethnic background isn't ouridentity, it's our role as a
child of God.
That's our identity.
And then, outside of that, youhave all of these other things.
I have my thoughts, I have mydesires, I have my emotions,
behaviors, I have life'sexperiences, all of those things
(18:58):
which what often happens with alot of people in life is these
things get turned inside outInstead of our identity in
Christ, shaping how I think, orshaping my emotions, shaping my
behavior, shaping my desires,shaping how I view life's
experiences, shaping myvocations, my gender, my
(19:24):
ethnicity, all of those things.
Instead we get turned insideout and it begins to be well, my
behaviors begin to identify me,or my desires identify me, or
my emotions identify me, andkind of.
What your question was wasfocusing on emotion.
I still feel guilty, I stillfeel shame over these things,
(19:49):
and so simple difference betweenshame and guilt Guilt is I've
done something bad, shame is Iam something bad.
Well, what I work with ishelping them get those arrows
going the right way, in otherwords, my identity as a child of
God.
How does that affect myemotions?
How does that affect mybehaviors?
(20:11):
How does it affect my thoughts?
And you know I tell people it'sgoing to sound corny, but what I
want you to do is, when you getup in the morning and look in
the mirror, I want you to sayout loud I am a redeemed child
of God, I am a forgiven child ofGod, I am a saved child of God,
and there are just countlessadjectives you can put before
(20:33):
that.
But it's something where weneed to remind ourselves and it
has a greater impact when we sayit out loud.
But what I tell people is youare seeing yourself as God sees
you, and just as it's a processof us forgiving others, so it's
a process of us forgivingourselves.
(20:55):
And you know, lord, I believehelp me overcome my unbelief.
We're never going to have aperfect faith in the gospel.
But again, it's not a perfectfaith that saves us, it's Christ
that saves us.
But it's a process of helpingthem overcome some of those
negative emotions, which can bevery strong.
(21:15):
It's really them forgivingthemselves, because God forgave
them, but we struggle to forgiveourselves.
Jeff Samelson (21:26):
Yeah, I've done some reading recently personal
stuff and it comes up withcognitive behavioral therapy,
which I know you're more thanfamiliar with.
How that does relate to aproper sense for the Christian
(21:51):
of their identity that you setaside the negative thoughts that
are not coming from youridentity as a child of God and
you retrain yourself to thinkthe positive thoughts that do
come from your identity as achild of.
John Scheutze (22:00):
God and from a counseling perspective, I always
tell people there's a spiritualdynamic here.
You know that we've beentalking about.
There's also a neurologicalcomponent that we're dealing
with because when you look at itfrom a brain science
perspective, we often do areally good job creating
negative pathways in the brain,and so that's kind of our go-to
(22:24):
pathway.
It's like a pathway that youtake through the woods or across
the grass.
When you take it again andagain, it's going to our go-to
pathway.
It's like a pathway that youtake through the woods or across
the grass.
When you take it again andagain, it's going to be well
worn.
It's the easy pathway to go.
But working both with thespiritual side and the
neurological side, as you weretalking about too, of thinking
the positive instead of thenegative, that's going to create
(22:45):
healthier pathways in the brainand with time those unhealthy
negative ones will grow over andit will be easier to recognize
who we are in Christ, and that'sa beautiful thing fail to
(23:12):
repent.
What happens or what damage doesthat do in our lives or even
our relationship with God?
Well, I suppose, if we'retalking about repenting in the
sense of something thatthreatens our faith, that's
obviously very dangerous becausewe can fall from grace.
If I say, well, I know God saysthis is wrong, but I'm going to
do it anyway and I just keepdoing it and I turn my back on
(23:33):
God, that's falling away fromgrace, falling away from faith.
But for us as Christians, ifwe're talking about that
struggle between our new man andour old man, you know that's
going to be a daily thing andsometimes I win, sometimes I
lose.
But the important thing is, youknow, are we still fighting that
(23:53):
fight?
And of course, we're not alonein that fight because God is
living in us.
He's giving us that strengththrough the means of grace,
through the gospel, through thesacraments, so we can win those
battles, we can make progress,but only if we look at him
(24:16):
instead of look inside of us.
And again, that's the danger Ifwe look inside of us for
strength instead of lookingoutside of us to God and his
word for strength, and to notbeat ourselves up over the times
when we fail, but rejoice inthe forgiveness we have through
Christ.
Christa Potratz (24:35):
There are some things nowadays too.
I mean especially we'll justkind of take, for example, the
living together outside ofmarriage as an example, and I
think so many people maybe haveeven convinced themselves that
this is just a cultural norm andalmost like kind of a get with
(24:57):
the times type of thing, thatokay, maybe it wasn't right back
then, but I mean now it's justan acceptable thing.
And I mean I know that there aremany Christian people too that
even just kind of just act likenormal with it.
You know, might even go tochurch with their person that
(25:20):
they're living with, and it'sjust kind of this normal thing
where people maybe on theoutside kind of tend to look at
that.
Or I mean I guess people maybein church would maybe tend to
look at that and be like, well,hey, how can they do that?
Do they see nothing wrong withthat?
Sometimes there's just this dothey even know it's wrong?
(25:43):
Is there any type of repentancethere?
And so in a situation like that, what would you really suggest
to people, people that theoutside looking in, I mean maybe
just okay, I think that coupleis living together and they
(26:03):
don't see anything wrong with it, and then maybe two for that
couple or a couple that runsinto a situation like that.
John Scheutze (26:11):
Yeah, I think what we always want to do is
take the time to listen.
We don't want to come with allguns blazing or anything like
that attacking them.
I don't know their story.
What is their story?
Why are they doing what theyare doing?
Did they have good role modelsgrowing up?
And so I think we can go a longway with listening, because not
(26:33):
only does that give us a betteridea of where they're at
spiritually, emotionally, butalso it enables us to earn the
right to speak to them.
As you mentioned, is this ablind spot for them that hey,
everybody's doing it?
And I'm sure we've all run intopeople, run into Christians,
(26:55):
that just assume you're livingtogether before you get married
and it kind of has become thenorm of the new engagement, as
was the case maybe in the 70sand 80s, where, okay, let's just
try this out and we're notreally committed to one another.
It's kind of the new norm ofwhen you're engaged, well, of
course you're going to livetogether, you're already having
(27:16):
sexual intercourse, and why payfor two apartments or two places
to live?
And so I think for a lot ofpeople it's a blind spot that
they haven't even given a secondthought that really, this is
wrong.
Everybody's doing it.
This is the new norm, and so Iwant to listen to them and
understand where they're comingfrom.
(27:38):
You know, they may have goodreasons for living together, but
it doesn't mean they're rightreasons for living together.
But you know, I want tounderstand their struggle, and I
think some of the skittishnessof getting married with the
present generation flows out ofthe fact that a lot of them saw
(27:58):
their parents divorce andexperienced the pain of that,
and so it's not that they don'tbelieve in marriage, but they're
so scared of divorce that theydon't know if they want to get
married, and so that complicatesit too.
But you know, as I said, Ithink where I want to start is I
want to listen to them.
Where are things at?
(28:20):
You know, tell me about yourlife growing up, tell me about
your struggles.
People then move from thereinto okay.
How do I, as a child of God,live now?
And how do I have marriage andhow do I have the best that God
wants me?
Jeff Samelson (28:35):
to have.
This episode is probably goingto be released right at or
around the beginning of Lent,with Ash Wednesday and such.
How would you say that it wouldbe helpful for a Christian to
be thinking about repentance andfocusing on it during the
season of Lent?
John Scheutze (28:53):
Yeah, the season of Lent can often be obviously a
sad, a solemn time of the year,but I think focusing on always
keep the big picture in mind,don't just focus on the
painfulness of Jesus' suffering,but what that means for us and
how his cross is our cross, howhe is our sin and we are his
(29:18):
righteousness, so that Lentdoesn't become well, what do I
now have to give up for Lent?
I know we have that practice,which I've never been real crazy
about, but instead focusing onthe fact that, well, I'm a child
of God and this is how Jesusmade me a child of God.
So, yes, there's a time and aplace to ponder over our sins,
(29:42):
and that's such an importantthing because we don't want to
downplay the seriousness of oursin.
I hope I didn't give thatimpression, because we don't
have a little Savior that diedfor a bunch of our little sins
that aren't all that reallyimportant.
Sin is huge.
It's an affront to God and thewhole reality of eternal
(30:03):
punishment shows what an affrontsin is to God, because that's
no little thing, eternalpunishment.
But the fact that Christendured that, for us, shows
God's love and how, in the midstof recognizing my great sin,
wow, I have a great Savior, andthat's really what Lent is all
(30:27):
about.
Christa Potratz (30:29):
Thank you very much, Pastor Schutze, for being
here and for talking with ustoday.
We really appreciate it.
Is there anything else you'dlike to mention on this subject
for all of our listeners?
John Scheutze (30:41):
We've touched upon the key points, but
recognizing my identity as achild of God, I think it's such
an important thing and I know itsounds simple.
It sounds simplistic, but it'ssomething that we all have to
struggle with, because we knowthat's our identity and yet we
(31:01):
live in that awkward time of thealready and the not yet,
Because we're still living withour own sin, we're still living
with the sins of others, we'restill living in the presence of
sin in the world and it's allaround us.
It's really easy to getdistracted, get consumed by that
, and that's where I constantlyhave to remind myself you know,
(31:22):
this is who I am in Christ, andwhat a beautiful thing that is.
Christa Potratz (31:26):
Yeah, sometimes those simple things are the
things we need to just tellourselves over and over again.
Well, thank you very much.
Jeff Samelson (31:35):
Yes, thank you.
Christa Potratz (31:35):
Yeah, we really appreciate it, and we want to
thank all of our listeners forjoining us too, and if you have
any questions on this topic orany others, you can reach us at
lifechallengesus.
And yeah, we'll look forward toseeing you back next time.
Thanks a lot.
John Scheutze (31:52):
Okay, thank you, my caregiver.
Bye.
Paul Snamiska (31:58):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of
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Please consider subscribing tothis podcast, giving us a review
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Our goal is to help you throughthese tough topics and we want
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(32:19):
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(32:42):
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May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge.
On today's episode… is what we get from
Jesus.
Progress is what we get as wegrow in our Christian life with
sanctification.
Paul Snamiska (00:29):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources.
People today face manyopportunities and struggles when
it comes to issues of life anddeath, marriage and family,
health and science.
We're here to bring a freshbiblical perspective to these
issues and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz (00:56):
Hi and welcome back.
I'm Krista Potratz and I'm heretoday with Pastor Jeff
Samuelson, and we also have aspecial guest joining us today.
We have Pastor and ProfessorJohn Schutze with us today.
We're really excited to havehim on the podcast and the topic
that we're going to bediscussing with him is the topic
(01:18):
of repentance, and so just veryexcited to have you on today
and we'd just love it if you'dstart by telling us a little bit
about yourself.
John Scheutze (01:28):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
So, as was mentioned, I'm JohnSchutze.
I served as a pastor for 15years and in the past 28 years I
served as a professor atWisconsin Lutheran Seminary,
teaching systematic theology,pastoral theology maybe, to
unpack those.
Systematic theology is doctrineand then pastoral theology is
(01:52):
the practical application ofthat, and in pastoral theology I
especially focused on pastoralcounseling and I also served as
the campus counselor on thecampus of Wisconsin Lutheran
Seminary.
I'm also a licensedprofessional counselor on staff
at Christian Family Solutions,where I focus on grief, loss and
(02:15):
trauma and also marital therapy.
I married my wife and I live inColumbia, tennessee.
We have four grown children and10 grandchildren.
Christa Potratz (02:26):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much for being ontoday.
Like I said, we're going totalk about this topic of
repentance, and one of thethings to maybe just kind of
start with is just generallydefining sin and what happens
when we sin.
John Scheutze (02:43):
So, in a simple way, sin is any time we violate
God's law.
That's the simple definition.
But of course it's more complexthan that, because if we divide
it up between believer andunbeliever, the main sin of an
unbeliever is their unbelief,whereas for us, as Christians,
we have that daily sin that westruggle against, but yet we're
(03:07):
living in a state of grace.
And so it's really a bigdifference here between believer
and unbeliever when we talkabout sin.
Because with unbelievers wesometimes think well, you know,
how do I change their outwardbehavior?
We focus on the second table oflaw, and that's what
unbelievers often do too.
(03:27):
They focus on certain aspectsof the second table of law, the
commandments that they can keepor that they want to keep and
there are a lot of good peoplein the world who do some very
helpful and kind things toothers.
But if they haven't kept thefirst table of law in other
words, honoring God, loving theLord, their God, with all their
(03:49):
heart, soul, strength and mind,they're still living in unbelief
, which is the main sin whichthey need to repent of and then
to unpack that matter of sineven more.
You know, I like to look at itfrom three different angles.
We live with our own sin, thethings that we do wrong.
(04:10):
We live with the effects of thesins of others that often
affect us very directly.
And then, of course, we livewith the presence of sin in the
world, and all of those threeaffect us in different ways.
You know, we live with our ownsin and that can leave us with
feelings of guilt and shame,even as Christians, after we
(04:31):
know our sins are forgiven, butstill we continue to beat
ourselves up over them.
The devil continues to accuseus of those sins.
Then there's living with thesins of others and I deal with
that a lot in my counseling, ingrief loss and trauma, because I
work with a fair number ofsurvivors of childhood abuse,
(04:53):
and so they're living in a veryprofound way with the effects of
other people's sin, the abusethat they endured along the way,
especially as children.
And then, of course, with grief, loss and trauma.
You also deal with the presenceof sin in the world, whether
it's natural disasters orwhether it's just a matter of
(05:15):
death which is the result of sin.
So that's just kind ofunpacking the simple concept of
sin, but it affects us in somany different ways.
Christa Potratz (05:26):
Thank you for doing that, because that really
does pull it apart to make youthink a little bit more about it
.
And I think too, even when wethink of trying to minister to
people or talk to people, evenjust in these terms of
differences with viewpointspertaining to life too.
(05:47):
Sometimes, yeah, it's like thebiggest hurdle is the unbelief
and just remembering.
Jeff Samelson (05:58):
Yeah, and one of the things that goes along with
unbelief very often is sometimesignorance.
Sometimes it's a deliberateunwillingness to consider the
reality of sin, particularly ofyour own.
It never happened to me Ididn't do that many funerals but
there are plenty of stories outthere of pastors at least our
well confessional Lutheranpastors doing a funeral service
(06:20):
for someone, often who wasn't avery strong member of the church
.
But some relative comes upafterward really angry about the
sermon.
You called Jack a sinner inyour sermon.
Well, yeah, so are we all.
But they reserve that term forthe stuff that they consider
really bad and it's notsomething that they realize is
(06:42):
in that basic sense of this isan offense against God.
It's not meeting the mark inany way.
John Scheutze (06:49):
Yeah, that is so true.
Christa Potratz (06:51):
Well then, you know, after we kind of define
sin, taking a look now atrepentance.
So how would we go aboutdefining repentance?
John Scheutze (07:00):
Well, I think, looking at that same paradigm of
believer versus unbeliever,well, I think, looking at that
same paradigm of believer versusunbeliever, for an unbeliever,
repentance is turning away fromsin, acknowledging their own
sinfulness and turning to Christfor forgiveness, and of course,
we know that that's somethingonly the Holy Spirit can work
through the message of thegospel, of the gospel.
(07:21):
But then for us as believersand I don't know how well we
emphasize this, we know this,but I think we're better at and
correct me if I'm wrong, I'mjust looking at it from my
perspective but I think we'rebetter with the law than we are
with the gospel.
And I think we're better at itbecause we understand it, we
(07:41):
live it, we can relate to it,but the gospel is such a foreign
thing.
And so what I really need toemphasize to people and I
realize I'm dealing with aclientele in my counseling
profession that are strugglingwith sin on all those different
levels, but what they reallystruggle with is knowing and
(08:05):
confessing the fact that I am achild of God, I am a redeemed
child of God, I'm a forgivenchild of God, I'm a saved child
of God, and I work with them onthat.
And it's really an importantbeginning place because out of
that flows their ability tomanage and cope with everything
(08:26):
that sin has thrown at them.
In a sense, whether it's theirown sin and you know, often
they're struggling with theirown sins and with people who are
struggling with trauma and havebeen abused in various ways,
they can fall into any number ofunhealthy behaviors, whether
(08:47):
it's substance abuse, or I'vehad some that struggle with
gambling, that struggle withshoplifting, that struggle with
promiscuity.
It can just go on and on and on.
And what's important tounderstand is that we don't
excuse the sin, but we dounderstand it, that it's kind of
(09:07):
been a negative copingmechanism for them.
And so how do you help themreplace that negative one with
helping coping mechanisms?
Well, it really begins withtheir understanding that I am a
child of God and I live in astate of grace because God has
worked that repentance in myheart.
(09:27):
He has led me to turn to him asmy savior, and that's what's
going to help me manage the sinfrom many different angles,
whether it's my own sin and thenegative patterns that I've
gotten into, whether it'smanaging the effects of the sins
of others that have had on mylives or simply dealing with the
presence of sin in this world.
(09:48):
I think is such an importantfactor when we begin from that
starting point of I'm a child ofGod and so I like to focus on
the gospel first rather thanreally hitting them with the law
, because so many times,especially in mental health,
(10:10):
they know the law, they'refeeling guilty, they're feeling
shame, and so what they reallystruggle with is the gospel you
find that repentance becomes anissue kind of between the
spouses, in the sense of well,he says he's repented, but I
don't see it, or I don't knowwhat repentance would look like
(10:31):
for me.
Jeff Samelson (10:32):
I don't know what it is.
Can you elaborate on that atall?
John Scheutze (10:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
And, of course, repentance andforgiveness.
When you talk about a couple, amarriage situation, as you
mentioned there, you're dealingwith repentance and really
forgiveness on two differentlevels.
We repent to God because of oursin and he forgives us.
That's instantaneous,horizontal level.
(11:08):
Where we repent to our marriagepartner or other family members
, then the forgiveness is on ahorizontal level and that can
often take time because it'spart of our Christian life of
sanctification and that's neverperfect, it's never complete.
And so people will doubt well,has that person really repented?
Because they've done, theycontinue to do it.
And, yeah, sin is a habit,we're never going to avoid it
(11:29):
perfectly.
But I emphasize to people youknow, we're looking for progress
, not perfection.
Perfection is what we get fromJesus.
Progress is what we get as wegrow in our Christian life of
sanctification.
So that whole matter ofrepentance and forgiveness is so
closely tied together.
But what can make it complex is,you know, is the person sorry
(11:50):
for what they've done?
Do they own it?
Are they working on it?
Are they admitting it to theother person or are they kind of
turning it back on the otherperson?
Well, if you hadn't done that,I wouldn't have done this.
A backhanded repentance, if youwill, repentance with
qualifications, and that happensmany times too, where they sort
(12:14):
of repent but they also putsome of it on the other person,
which may be the case too.
But even if somebody did saysomething to me that I didn't
like or that hurt me, it didn'tgive me the right to lash out or
say something or do something.
Owning it is so important.
Christa Potratz (12:34):
Yeah, I often just think about that too.
When we deal with God, on theother end is perfection, and
when we deal with people, on theother end is perfection, and
when we deal with people on theother end is a sinful human
being.
And so sometimes, like we'relooking at least I have you know
almost like looking for how Godforgives me or what happens.
(12:57):
I'm almost expecting that fromanother person, because it's so,
because it's perfect when Goddoes it, and you don't get that
when you deal with other people.
John Scheutze (13:09):
Yeah, we often have unrealistic expectations of
the other person and healthymarriages aren't those where you
have two perfect or nearlyperfect people.
I think we know that.
But healthy marriages are wherepeople are in a mindset of okay
, there are certain things I maynot like about my marriage
partner.
(13:29):
There are certain things mymarriage partner may not like
about me, but we tend to focuson the positive things and, of
course, all of those flow out ofour Christian faith and my
recognition that I am a childwith God and that my spouse, in
a Christian marriage, that he orshe is a child of God.
(13:49):
And you know, how can I beChrist to that person?
How can I treat that person asChrist would treat them?
You know, I work with what Icall Ephesians 5 skills.
What does that look like in amarriage?
On a practical level?
God gives us the principle inEphesians 5, but that's pretty
general.
Not that it's not beautiful,but it is pretty general.
(14:10):
It's Christ loved the church.
Okay, what does that look like?
And try to unpack that for them.
It means that, okay, I want mymarriage partner to feel
cherished, I want them to feelvalued, I want them to feel
loved.
I want them to feel loved.
I want them to feel respected.
That's how Christ would treatthem and that's how Christ
treats me.
So kind of unpacking some ofthat.
Christa Potratz (14:32):
When we talk about our relationship with God.
Why do people fail to repent?
Is it just maybe sometimes theydon't know what their sin is?
Or, you know, why would peoplemaybe not get to that place of
repentance?
John Scheutze (14:52):
Many in our society have worked really hard
to take God out of the picture.
And again, you have to workreally hard because there's so
much evidence, you know the foolsays in his heart there is no
God.
We have that voice within us,that conscience, telling us that
there is a God.
We have evidence in the worldaround us that there is a God,
(15:14):
and so it's not easy to suppressthat, but we suppress it
because we don't want to be heldaccountable, whether it's in
life issues, you know, I don'twant to be held accountable, but
I want to do what I want, andif it means taking the life of
an unborn or being in control ofmy own fate at the end, or
anything in between, I want tobe able to call the shots.
(15:36):
So I think that's why anunbeliever, will you know,
resist repenting because I don'twant to be held accountable by
anyone, and it's very much apart of our individualistic
culture in North America andeven in the Western world.
I'm responsible for what I do,and if you don't like it, well,
(15:58):
that's fine.
And you do what you want, andas long as it doesn't affect me,
that's fine.
But then, when you talk about abeliever, there are so many
things that can complicate it.
As I mentioned, a person'sexperience growing up can
complicate it and of course, Ialso deal with that a lot in
(16:21):
marital therapy, because whenone or the other, or both, have
come from a very difficultfamily environment, that's going
to play out in their presentrelationship because they
haven't seen it modeled growingup.
Yeah, and to a certain extentthey have the genetic makeup
(16:43):
which plays a part too, whetherit's a personality issue, a
narcissistic personality issue,which could be very prominent
and affect the maritalrelationship in many different
ways, or whether it's somethingelse.
So it can be a lot of thosefactors that complicate the
(17:04):
whole matter of marriagesituation.
You know, is this an individualissue that one or the other has
(17:30):
to work on or is this a maritalissue that the two of them have
to work on?
Because those are two verydifferent things.
Christa Potratz (17:39):
So when you we'll take it from a Christian
perspective when you dosomething and okay, you realize
that it's a sin, you repent, butthen you still feel guilty,
(18:07):
have given it to the Lord,you've said that you're sorry,
you've repented but you stilljust feel really bad about One
chart that I work with or oneimage that I work with is.
John Scheutze (18:14):
At the center of this image is the fact that
we're the child of God.
That's our identity and we talkso much about, you know,
identity, gender identity and soon.
Or I identify with my work ormy job, or my role, my
relationship with others.
Our identity is I'm a child ofGod and we're even our gender,
(18:37):
you know, neither male norfemale.
Our ethnic background isn't ouridentity, it's our role as a
child of God.
That's our identity.
And then, outside of that, youhave all of these other things.
I have my thoughts, I have mydesires, I have my emotions,
behaviors, I have life'sexperiences, all of those things
(18:58):
which what often happens with alot of people in life is these
things get turned inside outInstead of our identity in
Christ, shaping how I think, orshaping my emotions, shaping my
behavior, shaping my desires,shaping how I view life's
experiences, shaping myvocations, my gender, my
(19:24):
ethnicity, all of those things.
Instead we get turned insideout and it begins to be well, my
behaviors begin to identify me,or my desires identify me, or
my emotions identify me, andkind of.
What your question was wasfocusing on emotion.
I still feel guilty, I stillfeel shame over these things,
(19:49):
and so simple difference betweenshame and guilt Guilt is I've
done something bad, shame is Iam something bad.
Well, what I work with ishelping them get those arrows
going the right way, in otherwords, my identity as a child of
God.
How does that affect myemotions?
How does that affect mybehaviors?
(20:11):
How does it affect my thoughts?
And you know I tell people it'sgoing to sound corny, but what I
want you to do is, when you getup in the morning and look in
the mirror, I want you to sayout loud I am a redeemed child
of God, I am a forgiven child ofGod, I am a saved child of God,
and there are just countlessadjectives you can put before
(20:33):
that.
But it's something where weneed to remind ourselves and it
has a greater impact when we sayit out loud.
But what I tell people is youare seeing yourself as God sees
you, and just as it's a processof us forgiving others, so it's
a process of us forgivingourselves.
(20:55):
And you know, lord, I believehelp me overcome my unbelief.
We're never going to have aperfect faith in the gospel.
But again, it's not a perfectfaith that saves us, it's Christ
that saves us.
But it's a process of helpingthem overcome some of those
negative emotions, which can bevery strong.
(21:15):
It's really them forgivingthemselves, because God forgave
them, but we struggle to forgiveourselves.
Jeff Samelson (21:26):
Yeah, I've done some reading recently personal
stuff and it comes up withcognitive behavioral therapy,
which I know you're more thanfamiliar with.
How that does relate to aproper sense for the Christian
(21:51):
of their identity that you setaside the negative thoughts that
are not coming from youridentity as a child of God and
you retrain yourself to thinkthe positive thoughts that do
come from your identity as achild of.
John Scheutze (22:00):
God and from a counseling perspective, I always
tell people there's a spiritualdynamic here.
You know that we've beentalking about.
There's also a neurologicalcomponent that we're dealing
with because when you look at itfrom a brain science
perspective, we often do areally good job creating
negative pathways in the brain,and so that's kind of our go-to
(22:24):
pathway.
It's like a pathway that youtake through the woods or across
the grass.
When you take it again andagain, it's going to our go-to
pathway.
It's like a pathway that youtake through the woods or across
the grass.
When you take it again andagain, it's going to be well
worn.
It's the easy pathway to go.
But working both with thespiritual side and the
neurological side, as you weretalking about too, of thinking
the positive instead of thenegative, that's going to create
(22:45):
healthier pathways in the brainand with time those unhealthy
negative ones will grow over andit will be easier to recognize
who we are in Christ, and that'sa beautiful thing fail to
(23:12):
repent.
What happens or what damage doesthat do in our lives or even
our relationship with God?
Well, I suppose, if we'retalking about repenting in the
sense of something thatthreatens our faith, that's
obviously very dangerous becausewe can fall from grace.
If I say, well, I know God saysthis is wrong, but I'm going to
do it anyway and I just keepdoing it and I turn my back on
(23:33):
God, that's falling away fromgrace, falling away from faith.
But for us as Christians, ifwe're talking about that
struggle between our new man andour old man, you know that's
going to be a daily thing andsometimes I win, sometimes I
lose.
But the important thing is, youknow, are we still fighting that
(23:53):
fight?
And of course, we're not alonein that fight because God is
living in us.
He's giving us that strengththrough the means of grace,
through the gospel, through thesacraments, so we can win those
battles, we can make progress,but only if we look at him
(24:16):
instead of look inside of us.
And again, that's the danger Ifwe look inside of us for
strength instead of lookingoutside of us to God and his
word for strength, and to notbeat ourselves up over the times
when we fail, but rejoice inthe forgiveness we have through
Christ.
Christa Potratz (24:35):
There are some things nowadays too.
I mean especially we'll justkind of take, for example, the
living together outside ofmarriage as an example, and I
think so many people maybe haveeven convinced themselves that
this is just a cultural norm andalmost like kind of a get with
(24:57):
the times type of thing, thatokay, maybe it wasn't right back
then, but I mean now it's justan acceptable thing.
And I mean I know that there aremany Christian people too that
even just kind of just act likenormal with it.
You know, might even go tochurch with their person that
(25:20):
they're living with, and it'sjust kind of this normal thing
where people maybe on theoutside kind of tend to look at
that.
Or I mean I guess people maybein church would maybe tend to
look at that and be like, well,hey, how can they do that?
Do they see nothing wrong withthat?
Sometimes there's just this dothey even know it's wrong?
(25:43):
Is there any type of repentancethere?
And so in a situation like that, what would you really suggest
to people, people that theoutside looking in, I mean maybe
just okay, I think that coupleis living together and they
(26:03):
don't see anything wrong with it, and then maybe two for that
couple or a couple that runsinto a situation like that.
John Scheutze (26:11):
Yeah, I think what we always want to do is
take the time to listen.
We don't want to come with allguns blazing or anything like
that attacking them.
I don't know their story.
What is their story?
Why are they doing what theyare doing?
Did they have good role modelsgrowing up?
And so I think we can go a longway with listening, because not
(26:33):
only does that give us a betteridea of where they're at
spiritually, emotionally, butalso it enables us to earn the
right to speak to them.
As you mentioned, is this ablind spot for them that hey,
everybody's doing it?
And I'm sure we've all run intopeople, run into Christians,
(26:55):
that just assume you're livingtogether before you get married
and it kind of has become thenorm of the new engagement, as
was the case maybe in the 70sand 80s, where, okay, let's just
try this out and we're notreally committed to one another.
It's kind of the new norm ofwhen you're engaged, well, of
course you're going to livetogether, you're already having
(27:16):
sexual intercourse, and why payfor two apartments or two places
to live?
And so I think for a lot ofpeople it's a blind spot that
they haven't even given a secondthought that really, this is
wrong.
Everybody's doing it.
This is the new norm, and so Iwant to listen to them and
understand where they're comingfrom.
(27:38):
You know, they may have goodreasons for living together, but
it doesn't mean they're rightreasons for living together.
But you know, I want tounderstand their struggle, and I
think some of the skittishnessof getting married with the
present generation flows out ofthe fact that a lot of them saw
(27:58):
their parents divorce andexperienced the pain of that,
and so it's not that they don'tbelieve in marriage, but they're
so scared of divorce that theydon't know if they want to get
married, and so that complicatesit too.
But you know, as I said, Ithink where I want to start is I
want to listen to them.
Where are things at?
(28:20):
You know, tell me about yourlife growing up, tell me about
your struggles.
People then move from thereinto okay.
How do I, as a child of God,live now?
And how do I have marriage andhow do I have the best that God
wants me?
Jeff Samelson (28:35):
to have.
This episode is probably goingto be released right at or
around the beginning of Lent,with Ash Wednesday and such.
How would you say that it wouldbe helpful for a Christian to
be thinking about repentance andfocusing on it during the
season of Lent?
John Scheutze (28:53):
Yeah, the season of Lent can often be obviously a
sad, a solemn time of the year,but I think focusing on always
keep the big picture in mind,don't just focus on the
painfulness of Jesus' suffering,but what that means for us and
how his cross is our cross, howhe is our sin and we are his
(29:18):
righteousness, so that Lentdoesn't become well, what do I
now have to give up for Lent?
I know we have that practice,which I've never been real crazy
about, but instead focusing onthe fact that, well, I'm a child
of God and this is how Jesusmade me a child of God.
So, yes, there's a time and aplace to ponder over our sins,
(29:42):
and that's such an importantthing because we don't want to
downplay the seriousness of oursin.
I hope I didn't give thatimpression, because we don't
have a little Savior that diedfor a bunch of our little sins
that aren't all that reallyimportant.
Sin is huge.
It's an affront to God and thewhole reality of eternal
(30:03):
punishment shows what an affrontsin is to God, because that's
no little thing, eternalpunishment.
But the fact that Christendured that, for us, shows
God's love and how, in the midstof recognizing my great sin,
wow, I have a great Savior, andthat's really what Lent is all
(30:27):
about.
Christa Potratz (30:29):
Thank you very much, Pastor Schutze, for being
here and for talking with ustoday.
We really appreciate it.
Is there anything else you'dlike to mention on this subject
for all of our listeners?
John Scheutze (30:41):
We've touched upon the key points, but
recognizing my identity as achild of God, I think it's such
an important thing and I know itsounds simple.
It sounds simplistic, but it'ssomething that we all have to
struggle with, because we knowthat's our identity and yet we
(31:01):
live in that awkward time of thealready and the not yet,
Because we're still living withour own sin, we're still living
with the sins of others, we'restill living in the presence of
sin in the world and it's allaround us.
It's really easy to getdistracted, get consumed by that
, and that's where I constantlyhave to remind myself you know,
(31:22):
this is who I am in Christ, andwhat a beautiful thing that is.
Christa Potratz (31:26):
Yeah, sometimes those simple things are the
things we need to just tellourselves over and over again.
Well, thank you very much.
Jeff Samelson (31:35):
Yes, thank you.
Christa Potratz (31:35):
Yeah, we really appreciate it, and we want to
thank all of our listeners forjoining us too, and if you have
any questions on this topic orany others, you can reach us at
lifechallengesus.
And yeah, we'll look forward toseeing you back next time.
Thanks a lot.
John Scheutze (31:52):
Okay, thank you, my caregiver.
Bye.
Paul Snamiska (31:58):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of
the Life Challenges podcast fromChristian Life Resources.
Please consider subscribing tothis podcast, giving us a review
wherever you access it andsharing it with friends.
We're sure you have questionson today's topic or other life
issues.
Our goal is to help you throughthese tough topics and we want
you to know we're here to help.
(32:19):
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
suggestions for future episodes,at lifechallengesus or email us
at podcast atchristianliferesourcescom.
In addition to the podcasts, weinclude other valuable
information at lifechallengesus,so be sure to check it out For
(32:42):
more about our parentorganization.
Please visitchristianliferesourcescom For
more information or to learnmore about our parent
organization.
Please visitChristianLifeResourcescom.
May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge.
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