April 22, 2025 • 30 mins
The resurrection of Jesus Christ transforms everything about our lives—from how we face death to how we make daily decisions. In this profound conversation with Pastor Piet Van Kampen, we explore 1 Corinthians 15, perhaps the most comprehensive teaching on resurrection outside the Gospels themselves.
What happens when we strip away resurrection hope from our faith? Paul's urgent message to the Corinthians reveals the devastating consequences: "If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins." Without the resurrection, Christianity collapses into mere moral philosophy. But with it, we possess the ultimate answer to life's greatest challenges.
Pastor Van Kampen unpacks how resurrection hope provides concrete comfort during our darkest moments—whether standing at the graveside of loved ones or facing our own mortality. This hope isn't abstract theology but practical strength that enables believers to face dangers with courage, resist temptation with purpose, and invest in Kingdom work with confidence.
The conversation takes a compelling turn as we examine how resurrection faith specifically informs Christian Life Resources' approach to complex ethical issues. When confronting assisted suicide, abortion, or end-of-life decisions, the resurrection provides a revolutionary perspective: this broken world with its suffering is not the final reality. Pain, disease, disability—all these will be transformed in the resurrection body.
Perhaps most powerfully, Paul's words remind us that "your labor is not in vain in the Lord." In a world demanding instant results and tangible returns, resurrection faith allows us to plant seeds of truth and compassion without seeing immediate fruit. Our work has eternal significance because the One we serve conquered death itself.
Whether you're struggling with grief, ethical dilemmas, or simply wondering if your faith really matters, this discussion offers the ultimate perspective shift. Christ is risen—and that changes everything.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christa Potratz (00:03):
On today's episode.
Piet Van Kampen (00:04):
This is a chapter that often gets used at
funerals because of the hopethat it gives to us as
Christians, and so, if we thinkabout one way that it impacts
our everyday lives, it'ssomething that, in moments of
some of our deepest sorrow, itgives us great hope and comfort
to know that, because Christ isarisen, and comfort to know that
(00:28):
, because Christ is arisen, ourloved one who we're laying into
the ground today is one daygoing to rise again, along with
all of us.
Paul Snamiska (00:34):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources.
People today face manyopportunities and struggles when
it comes to issues of life anddeath, marriage and family,
health and science.
We're here to bring a freshbiblical perspective to these
issues and more.
Join us now for.
Christa Potratz (00:58):
Life Challenges .
Hi and welcome back.
I'm Krista Potrads and I'm heretoday with Pastor Bob
Fleischman, and today we have aspecial guest with us, Pastor
Pete Van Kampen, here with ustoday.
Welcome, Pete.
Piet Van Kampen (01:15):
Hi, glad to be here.
Christa Potratz (01:17):
Yeah, we're really excited to have you here
today, and the focus of ourepisode will be on the
resurrection and on 1Corinthians 15 in particular.
Piet Van Kampen (01:36):
But before we get started on that, can you
just tell us a little bit aboutyourself and the work and
everything that you do?
Sure, so I'm an associatepastor at Holy Cross Lutheran
Church in Madison, and HolyCross is a part of the
Evangelical Lutheran Synod, andso I've been serving as a pastor
.
This is actually my 20th yearin the ministry.
This year I celebrated my 20thanniversary in January, so I've
(01:58):
served here in Madison for abouta year and a half, and then
before that was in Green Bay,wisconsin, for nine years, and
then Cottonwood, minnesota,southwestern Minnesota, for nine
years.
Before that and, as I said,serving the ELS.
I write a column for theLutheran Sentinel been involved
with Christian Life Resourcessince 2019 as a member of the
(02:23):
national board, and my wife,charity and I we've been married
for 27 years and we have fourboys.
All of them are 18 and over.
Two are married, and we got one, the last one's graduating high
school in May.
Bob Fleischmann (02:39):
Time moves quickly.
Christa Potratz (02:41):
Yeah, yeah, and you said that you've been on
the Christian Life ResourceBoard since 2019.
Piet Van Kampen (02:47):
Yeah, Is that correct?
Christa Potratz (02:48):
That's correct, awesome.
So what kind of led you tobecome a board member?
Piet Van Kampen (02:54):
You know you think about the calling to
defend life and especially todeal and wrestle with the issues
that Christian Life Resourceswrestles with on a regular basis
, having to do with beginning oflife issues, end of life issues
.
There's just so manyopportunities to not only help
people who are in desperate needa lot of times for guidance,
(03:18):
but also opportunities to sharethe comfort of Jesus with them,
and it's a wonderful ministry tobe able to help with and
support.
So when I was asked to considerjoining the board, it was kind
of a no-brainer to me.
Bob Fleischmann (03:35):
It was interesting.
Very few people get onto theCLR board that I don't already
know.
Pete is one of them.
I did not know Pete.
I went to the late PresidentMolstad, who's a friend of mine
from back in college, and Iasked him.
I said you know, we'd like tobring an ELS guy onto the board
(03:57):
and he had recommended this VanKampen guy and at that time,
pete, you were up in Green Bay,right, yeah, yeah, so brought
him on.
Well, today Pete is the vicechairman and the spiritual
advisor on the board and heheads up the program committee
and he's on the ethics committeeand he's a valuable asset and
(04:17):
friend for our work and sortingthings out.
He's got a good mind on dealingwith the deep subjects.
Piet Van Kampen (04:25):
It helps that we're both Dutch too.
Bob Fleischmann (04:28):
Yeah, it does it does.
50% of me is Dutch in biologyand 100% of Pete is Dutch in
name.
Christa Potratz (04:35):
Well, we're really glad that you are joining
us here today and specifically,we really wanted to talk about
the resurrection and thescripture that we had kind of
focused on was the 1 Corinthians15.
It is a section of scripturethat is typically associated
(04:55):
with our Easter celebration.
Can you just describe a littlebit of what is going on in 1
Corinthians, chapter 15, and whyit is so closely associated
with our Easter celebration?
Piet Van Kampen (05:12):
Yeah, yeah, when you look at 1 Corinthians,
chapter 15, outside of theGospels, it's really, it's one
of the places in the Bible thatjust so clearly teaches the
resurrection of Christ.
And it doesn't just mentionJesus rising from the dead, but
talks extensively.
The Apostle Paul talksextensively there about Jesus'
(05:33):
resurrection and talks about howhe died for our sins in
accordance with the scriptures,that he was buried, that he was
raised on the third day inaccordance with the scriptures
was buried, that he was raisedon the third day in accordance
with the scriptures.
And there's a good reason whythe chapter deals with the topic
of the resurrection becauseapparently in the church in
Corinth that Paul was writing toat that time, there were some
(05:57):
people in the congregation whowere starting to say, well,
maybe there's no resurrection ofthe dead, and so it's a
wonderful answer to that.
And you read through the wholechapter and you just have this
wonderful portrayal of theresurrection as it's really the
heart of the gospel that savesus and doesn't just talk about
(06:21):
the resurrection but presentsevidence for it too.
Paul talks about how the risenChrist appeared to Peter and
then to the 12, and then afterthat to over 500 witnesses at
the same time and so on, and soit also kind of helps from a
scriptural apologetic point ofview, maybe in terms of giving a
(06:42):
defense for the divinity ofChrist and for the forgiveness
of our sins in his resurrection.
So 1 Corinthians 15 is loadedwith all kinds of wonderful
things.
Bob Fleischmann (06:56):
One of the great things about Easter season
is it makes the Christian faithfar more than just a social
network type thing.
In other words, it creates thiscontinuity that takes us into
eternity.
There's a lot of people whotalk about the Christian faith
more as kind of like a goodmoral code to live by and so
forth, but it's really, with theaccount of the resurrection,
(07:18):
frames everything.
I like the part where Paulmakes a comment about if all we
have to believe in is Jesus inthis life, then we're to be
pitied more than all thismessage of the resurrection
which creates kind of the form,kind of the paradigm really with
everything we do, everything wedo at CLR, certainly, but even
(07:39):
just everything we do asindividual Christians,
everything we do is individualChristians.
Christa Potratz (07:42):
Yeah, could you expand a little bit on that
concept where we link Christ'sresurrection with our faith and
salvation?
Piet Van Kampen (07:56):
Well, yeah, there's a good chunk of the
chapter that deals withspecifically that topic and it
kind of addresses it from thatstandpoint of if there's no
resurrection like the peoplewere arguing well then Christ
isn't raised either.
And so if you could justimagine, let's just say Jesus
didn't rise and let's just saythere's a body buried somewhere
in the world, and what wouldthat actually mean for us as
(08:20):
Christians?
And Paul points out thatwithout Christ's resurrection,
any preaching of the gospel orour faith would basically be
pointless, that all of uspastors that are preaching on
Sunday morning would be breakingthe second commandment every
week because we'd be lying inGod's name, we'd be committing
the worst kind of blasphemythere is if Christ isn't raised.
(08:41):
He goes on to say if Christ hasnot been raised, your faith is
futile, your faith is pointless,you're still in your sins.
Jesus' death on the cross meantnothing, because if he didn't
rise, well then he's just someguy who died and who claimed to
be somebody, but who reallywasn't.
He really was just like therest of us.
Might as well just close upshop and go home right now.
(09:12):
That's kind of what Bob washitting at or talking about a
minute ago when he talked about.
If our hope for jesus, our hopefor christ, is only in this
life, well then it's.
We're the most pitiful peopleof all.
And then paul says butthankfully, there is a
resurrection from the dead.
Because he says, in fact,christ has been raised from the
dead, the first fruits of thosewho have fallen asleep, asleep.
And he goes on to talk aboutthe fact that, because Jesus
rose, well, in Christ all of usare going to be made alive too.
(09:34):
We can trust that our sins areforgiven and that one day we're
going to enter eternal life withour Lord.
So it's a central thing to ourlife and it's in great contrast
to the predominant message weget in the world today too,
which is that this life is allthere is and that when this life
(09:57):
is over, well, you're done.
No, because Christ is raised,we have an eternity to look
forward to with a glorified body.
Christa Potratz (10:04):
Yeah, there's moments where you read the
scriptures and it just I don'tknow, it just really hits you
like man.
Okay, they had these questions2,000 years ago too.
I mean because so many peoplenowadays just like what you were
saying too, also really seem toquestion the resurrection and
(10:24):
what does that mean, and thesignificance and everything, and
they were even so much closerto it, but there was already
those questions coming up.
And so because when you hearPaul speak these words and when
I read it, I just think abouthow awesome it is to hear him
now, but then it was also soneat 2,000 years ago for people
(10:49):
to be listening to that andhearing that too.
Bob Fleischmann (10:52):
Well, you know, when Pete was talking about,
christ hadn't been raised.
There's a body flying someplaceto be found, all that kind of
stuff.
This presented a very uniqueproblem for the Corinthians
because he said not only was heseen by the people identified,
and then 500, and then he saidsome of those have fallen asleep
, which means some of those havedied, but some of them are
(11:14):
still around to that day.
And so the Corinthians had avery unique challenge.
If they wanted to deny theresurrection, they had trouble
because there were eyewitnessesstill walking around.
There were still eyewitnessesthat they can consult with.
And yeah, I was thinking toowhen Pete used the word pitiful.
One other place in scripturewhere the word pitiful is
(11:37):
striking for me is on Revelation.
I think it's Revelation 3.17,the church of Laodicea.
You say I'm rich, I don't needa thing, but you do not realize
you're pitiful or blind andnaked.
So there's a little bit of atheme there that kind of runs
when you're living for the world, there's just a certain
pointlessness to it which makesyour existence pitiful.
Christa Potratz (12:00):
Yeah, and it really is a good lead-in to
another question about just theconnection between the
resurrection and our daily lives.
What would you say is a goodlead-in to another question
about just the connectionbetween the resurrection and our
daily lives?
What would you say is a goodthing to focus on when we talk
about the resurrection and ourdaily lives?
Piet Van Kampen (12:17):
Well, paul hints at a couple of things in
the chapter itself, and I'll getto those in a second, but just
to think too.
First off, this is a chapterthat often gets used at funerals
because of the hope that itgives to us as Christians, and
so if we think about one waythat it impacts our everyday
(12:37):
lives, it's something that inmoments of some of our deepest
sorrow, it gives us great hopeand comfort to know that,
because Christ is arisen, ourloved one who were laying into
the ground today is one daygoing to rise again along with
all of us.
So there's that.
(12:57):
But Paul also talks about acouple of other things here.
He talks about facing dangeroussituations and having courage in
the face of dangeroussituations because of the hope
of the resurrection that we havein Christ.
He says why do we live indanger?
Every hour, day by day, I facedeath as surely as I boast about
(13:21):
you, brothers in Christ Jesus,our Lord.
Paul talks about his owncourage in the face of possibly
dying for the sake of the gospel.
In that way we maybe thinkabout people who serve in the
various helping vocations whereyou're asked to be a first
responder, somebody who's apolice officer or a firefighter
or somebody who's serving in thearmed forces, and the
(13:45):
sacrifices that they're expectedto make.
Where does the courage to makethose sacrifices come from?
Well, if you're a believer, itcomes from knowing that Jesus
lives, and one day I'm going tolive too.
One other area maybe to thinkabout too is just giving our
lives to general purpose andmeaning.
(14:05):
Paul in verses I think it's 32or 33, talks he says if the dead
are not raised, well then wejust give in to the predominant
philosophy of the time, which islet us eat and drink, for
tomorrow we die.
Why bother living a moral life,whereas the resurrection gives
us a sense of delayedgratification?
(14:27):
In the best possible way, I canuse sober judgment, I can live
a life that gives glory to Godand resists temptation, because,
first of all, I know that mysins are forgiven, that I have
that hope of eternal life, butalso when I think about my
example and the need for othersto hear the gospel as well and
(14:50):
to know that Jesus died and rosefor them.
So those are some ways, maybe,that the resurrection touches
our daily lives.
Bob Fleischmann (15:01):
Well, and we have this constant tension.
Really You're either living forthis world or you're living for
something else.
Because a lot of people livefor the world.
We get kind of sucked intothinking like the world, so
primary focus kind of shiftsover to careers and human
relationships and so forth, andas a result, when we do that
(15:23):
shift, we begin to lose sight ofthe fact that when it's
interrupted with the ultimateinterruption, which of course is
death, which shatters all thehopes and dreams for life in
this world, death just kind ofmesses that all up.
And then you get kind of thisopportunity for recalibration,
it's like.
But you don't have a pitifulexistence because your life is
(15:45):
devoted to glorifying God.
That's really what it's allabout.
You live every day recognizingthat it ends the same way for
everyone in death and eventhough it ends, it continues.
And that's exactly what Paultalked to the Thessalonians.
I don't want you to be ignorantabout those who fall asleep.
(16:07):
This resurrection permeates andreally, truth be told, it's what
attracted me to what we do hereat CLR, because when I was a
student at Bethany in Mankato,minnesota, bethany Lutheran
College, I became involved inpro-life stuff and all of my
involvement was on the secularrealm.
(16:28):
I went up to a dinner up atMCCL.
Harold OJ Brown was the speakerand I just remembered always
you've got to fight abortion,you've got to do all that kind
of stuff when we came down, whenwe moved to Milwaukee in 1979
for me to go to the seminary inMequon, I became involved with
what is today Wisconsin Work toLife and again it was very neat,
(16:51):
loved helping protect babies,helping mothers, but it was when
I got wind of this organizationthat deals with these issues or
with abortion at the time, butwithin a Christian context.
So there was something bigger,something deeper that was at
work here and it really I meanthe message of the resurrection.
(17:13):
I think truly, truly, for thebest of my ability is to always
be at the heart of what we'redoing here at CLR.
Christa Potratz (17:20):
Bob makes a really good point too with what
the work and the mission ofChristian Life Resources is with
the resurrection.
Do you have anything to kind ofadd to that Pete with how
Christ's resurrection applies tothe work that is being done at
Christian Life Resources?
Piet Van Kampen (17:40):
Yeah, when you think about the work that we do,
it's just a reminder thateverything is so much bigger and
better in the end than theworld that we have now.
And Paul talks about theperishable being made
imperishable and so on, and usesthat picture of a seed being
(18:02):
planted in the ground as a ananalogy to for for what happens
between the death our death andthe time of our resurrection.
And in confirmation class withthe kids, I talk about corn.
You know what's that littleseed that you plant in the
ground?
What do you call it?
It's corn.
And well, you plant it in theground and get a little water.
(18:25):
And what happens?
By the end of the summer it?
It's a 10-foot stalk.
Well, what do you call that?
Corn?
And you start to understand howdifferent life is going to be
in the resurrection.
Lately, bob's been writing a lotabout assisted suicide and
euthanasia.
(18:45):
And you think about the problemsof getting older, the problems
of pain and disease, and how oneday we're never going to have
to worry about any of thosethings ever again because Christ
is raised from the dead andwe're going to be raised too.
Or we think about people findreasons to abort babies.
(19:08):
Or you think about peopleaborting babies for Down
syndrome or all these otherchronic conditions and so on,
and to think that you know, inthe resurrection period,
children that are born withthose conditions, those
conditions won't be a problemanymore and there's an eternal
future that we all have to lookforward to.
(19:28):
And it gives a perspective toour work that is just not found
in the secular world, even onthe pro-life side, in secular
society just that grand futurethat God has planned for us.
And it gives us comfort andencouragement.
It gives us a lot of comfort,especially when you think about
(19:52):
kind of the dark times thatwe're living in.
I think personally for myselfas somebody who's pro-life, that
, being pro-life in general,you're kind of facing an uphill
battle right now in terms ofwhat society thinks.
There's a lot of fear andsometimes it can feel a little
(20:13):
pointless, and yet to know thatthis bigger plan that God has
and that we're part of that,there's kind of always two sides
to the work that we do at CLR.
Bob Fleischmann (20:24):
You know, there's the side of the audience
which is oftentimes the peoplewho want or are seeking
assistance in suicide or they'relooking for an abortion.
They're looking to do thingsthat are contrary to the will of
God, and so you've got theirperspective, and a lot of times
talk of resurrection is not ontheir radar.
They're talking about gettingby the next 24 hours.
(20:46):
They're talking about gettingby the diagnosis, getting by the
pain, whatever trauma hasaffected them.
And then there's this side, andthat is as the worker, and I
would say that in the last 10years or so, the message of the
resurrection has and I know thissounds crazy for somebody who's
been in ministry for over 40years, but for me the
(21:08):
resurrection has kind ofrecalibrated my view on this
side.
Why?
Because think about it this wayPsalm 23, though I walk through
the valley of the shadow ofdeath, I will fear no evil, for
you are with me.
Well, I don't know about you,but almost everybody I deal with
Christian, non-christian has acertain element of fear when
they're walking through thevalley of the shadow of death,
(21:30):
including family members ofsomeone walking through the
valley.
There, just there seems to befear.
And yet he says you don't haveto be afraid.
He says if people challenge you, they strike you in one cheek.
Give them the other side.
Let them hit the other cheek.
If they take your coat, givethem your jacket.
They force you to walk one mile, walk two miles.
I mean, why else are you goingto do that, especially if you're
(21:51):
living for the world?
There is no incentive to dothat.
Living for the world, it onlyhas to do when you understand
the broader context of eternallife.
I'm happy for the last 10 yearswhere this has become clearer
for me.
But I'm happy for the last 10years where this has become
clear for me, but I'm frustratedas to where it was the first 58
years.
Christa Potratz (22:09):
I really enjoy this chapter.
I mean, I encourage all of ourlisteners to read it.
Not going to lie, though, it isa pretty lengthy chapter in
scripture I think it has over 50verses in it but it really
progresses in kind of this neatway as well, when we're talking
about Christ's resurrection andthen, yeah, just like how you
(22:30):
were saying Bob, there's this nofear aspect of it.
So when Paul gets to that pointtoo where he just says I'm
surrounded by death all day long, and just that idea, it is very
comforting too.
We do get to see some realcomfort in it, and I think you
mentioned some of that Pete too,with the comfort and
(22:51):
encouragement that it provides.
Specifically in verse 58 ofthat chapter it says Therefore,
my dear brothers, be steadfast,immovable, always bounding in
the Lord's work, because youknow that your labor is not in
vain in the Lord.
Verses like that in particularreally seem to kind of hit home
(23:13):
with some of the stuff thatwe're also doing with
Christian-like resources too.
Piet Van Kampen (23:19):
Yeah, when you think about those words, your
labor is not in vain in the Lord.
Without the Lord, all our laborwould be in vain.
But in the Lord, the same Jesuswho died and rose again, the
same Jesus who's coming soon toraise all the dead, is alive and
at work in this fallen world,and he is working through our
(23:42):
faithful labor.
And so, as we encounter peoplewho are in need or are suffering
, as we deal with people who aremaybe trying to get around
God's will and are looking forcounsel or permission, we can be
(24:02):
immovable and steadfast in whatthe truth of God's word says
about life and about eternallife in Jesus.
You think about how much workthere is to do.
I know Bob's list is notgetting any shorter.
Christa Potratz (24:21):
We keep adding things to it.
Piet Van Kampen (24:25):
Everybody at CLR works very hard and is busy
doing the work that needs to bedone.
And sometimes you know you getinvolved in some things and
maybe it feels like, well, Idon't know that I accomplished
that much or not getting muchdone.
And yet you know you can alsotrust that in Christ, nothing
(24:46):
that you do in his love, nothingyou do, is pointless.
Even the smallest task is stillkingdom work.
Christa Potratz (24:59):
Yeah, and I have to remind myself that as
I'm wiping noses for my kids andcleaning up milk on the floor
again, of that I mean that is acomfort in everything that we do
, knowing that our work is forthe Lord.
Bob Fleischmann (25:16):
Yeah, you know, it really is incredible that we
get so distracted by the worldthat we, you know, we'll let the
things of the world frustrateus, and so forth.
And yet I struck by howscripture so often uses the
analogy of planting seed.
I always like to use theanalogy that what we do here is
(25:38):
always investing and the worldlooks for instant gratification,
you know.
In other words, you know I'mgoing to take a bucket of money
and I'm going to invest it andI'm going to project when I'm
going to get a return and whenthat will be, you know, and so
forth, and we have all thesemetrics.
And then, of course, you get tothe Christian faith, which is
(25:58):
planting.
It's talking about Jesus.
It's not up to us to convertanybody.
We just simply tell peopleabout it and let the message,
let the work of the Holy Spirittake place.
But the point is is, when we'retalking to people about the
resurrection of Jesus, it can befrustrating.
(26:20):
But, as we've encountered onpast podcasts, we've talked to
people, we've talked tocounselors and so forth who
share a message in a contentioussituation unplanned pregnancy,
whatever, a lot of emotion andso forth and it bears fruit, and
not always the kind of fruityou're expecting.
(26:41):
Sometimes it's not that justsomebody decides not to have an
abortion, sometimes they stillhave an abortion, but somehow
the message permeates out into abroader audience and it creates
another thought and anotheropportunity.
And again, without theresurrection, there is nothing.
We have nothing to anchor on,and I can tell you already, as
(27:04):
the guy who spends part of hiscareer studying all this stuff
on technology and artificialintelligence and how we're going
to be able to take humanconsciousness and implant it in
so that people can keep onliving.
It's not happening.
All you have to do is look atit with your eyes open.
But the thing is is you'vealready got it because of the
resurrection of Jesus Christ,and it's our job to tell people.
(27:25):
You don't have to hold out forlongevity studies, you don't
have to hold out for perfectingcomputing so that you can load
your full consciousness intosomething, because you've got it
already because of Jesus Christand the resurrection.
Christa Potratz (27:41):
Any final thoughts before we go?
Resurrection, any final?
Piet Van Kampen (27:43):
thoughts before we go.
You know just when we thinkabout Easter.
Bob just nailed it when he saidwe have nothing without the
resurrection, and with theresurrection we have everything.
(28:08):
We have a Savior who loves us,we have a God who has forgiven
us, we have forever with ourLord, in an existence that will
make everything in this lifepale in comparison, and that's
the comfort that we get to livewith each and every day, and
it's the comfort that we get toshare, especially with those who
need it the most, and so it's aprivilege to be able to do that
.
Christa Potratz (28:27):
Well, thank you very much, Pastor Van Kampen,
for joining us today, and wereally appreciate it you taking
the time to talk with us aboutthe resurrection.
Piet Van Kampen (28:39):
Thanks for having me.
Christa Potratz (28:40):
No problem, and we thank all of our listeners,
too, for joining us.
Thanks for having me.
No problem, and we thank all ofour listeners too for joining
us, and if you have anyquestions on this episode or any
other, please reach out to usat lifechallengesus.
Thanks a lot, bye.
Paul Snamiska (28:52):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of
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(29:14):
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For more about our parentorganization, please visit
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May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge.
On today's episode.
Piet Van Kampen (00:04):
This is a chapter that often gets used at
funerals because of the hopethat it gives to us as
Christians, and so, if we thinkabout one way that it impacts
our everyday lives, it'ssomething that, in moments of
some of our deepest sorrow, itgives us great hope and comfort
to know that, because Christ isarisen, and comfort to know that
(00:28):
, because Christ is arisen, ourloved one who we're laying into
the ground today is one daygoing to rise again, along with
all of us.
Paul Snamiska (00:34):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources.
People today face manyopportunities and struggles when
it comes to issues of life anddeath, marriage and family,
health and science.
We're here to bring a freshbiblical perspective to these
issues and more.
Join us now for.
Christa Potratz (00:58):
Life Challenges .
Hi and welcome back.
I'm Krista Potrads and I'm heretoday with Pastor Bob
Fleischman, and today we have aspecial guest with us, Pastor
Pete Van Kampen, here with ustoday.
Welcome, Pete.
Piet Van Kampen (01:15):
Hi, glad to be here.
Christa Potratz (01:17):
Yeah, we're really excited to have you here
today, and the focus of ourepisode will be on the
resurrection and on 1Corinthians 15 in particular.
Piet Van Kampen (01:36):
But before we get started on that, can you
just tell us a little bit aboutyourself and the work and
everything that you do?
Sure, so I'm an associatepastor at Holy Cross Lutheran
Church in Madison, and HolyCross is a part of the
Evangelical Lutheran Synod, andso I've been serving as a pastor
.
This is actually my 20th yearin the ministry.
This year I celebrated my 20thanniversary in January, so I've
(01:58):
served here in Madison for abouta year and a half, and then
before that was in Green Bay,wisconsin, for nine years, and
then Cottonwood, minnesota,southwestern Minnesota, for nine
years.
Before that and, as I said,serving the ELS.
I write a column for theLutheran Sentinel been involved
with Christian Life Resourcessince 2019 as a member of the
(02:23):
national board, and my wife,charity and I we've been married
for 27 years and we have fourboys.
All of them are 18 and over.
Two are married, and we got one, the last one's graduating high
school in May.
Bob Fleischmann (02:39):
Time moves quickly.
Christa Potratz (02:41):
Yeah, yeah, and you said that you've been on
the Christian Life ResourceBoard since 2019.
Piet Van Kampen (02:47):
Yeah, Is that correct?
Christa Potratz (02:48):
That's correct, awesome.
So what kind of led you tobecome a board member?
Piet Van Kampen (02:54):
You know you think about the calling to
defend life and especially todeal and wrestle with the issues
that Christian Life Resourceswrestles with on a regular basis
, having to do with beginning oflife issues, end of life issues
.
There's just so manyopportunities to not only help
people who are in desperate needa lot of times for guidance,
(03:18):
but also opportunities to sharethe comfort of Jesus with them,
and it's a wonderful ministry tobe able to help with and
support.
So when I was asked to considerjoining the board, it was kind
of a no-brainer to me.
Bob Fleischmann (03:35):
It was interesting.
Very few people get onto theCLR board that I don't already
know.
Pete is one of them.
I did not know Pete.
I went to the late PresidentMolstad, who's a friend of mine
from back in college, and Iasked him.
I said you know, we'd like tobring an ELS guy onto the board
(03:57):
and he had recommended this VanKampen guy and at that time,
pete, you were up in Green Bay,right, yeah, yeah, so brought
him on.
Well, today Pete is the vicechairman and the spiritual
advisor on the board and heheads up the program committee
and he's on the ethics committeeand he's a valuable asset and
(04:17):
friend for our work and sortingthings out.
He's got a good mind on dealingwith the deep subjects.
Piet Van Kampen (04:25):
It helps that we're both Dutch too.
Bob Fleischmann (04:28):
Yeah, it does it does.
50% of me is Dutch in biologyand 100% of Pete is Dutch in
name.
Christa Potratz (04:35):
Well, we're really glad that you are joining
us here today and specifically,we really wanted to talk about
the resurrection and thescripture that we had kind of
focused on was the 1 Corinthians15.
It is a section of scripturethat is typically associated
(04:55):
with our Easter celebration.
Can you just describe a littlebit of what is going on in 1
Corinthians, chapter 15, and whyit is so closely associated
with our Easter celebration?
Piet Van Kampen (05:12):
Yeah, yeah, when you look at 1 Corinthians,
chapter 15, outside of theGospels, it's really, it's one
of the places in the Bible thatjust so clearly teaches the
resurrection of Christ.
And it doesn't just mentionJesus rising from the dead, but
talks extensively.
The Apostle Paul talksextensively there about Jesus'
(05:33):
resurrection and talks about howhe died for our sins in
accordance with the scriptures,that he was buried, that he was
raised on the third day inaccordance with the scriptures
was buried, that he was raisedon the third day in accordance
with the scriptures.
And there's a good reason whythe chapter deals with the topic
of the resurrection becauseapparently in the church in
Corinth that Paul was writing toat that time, there were some
(05:57):
people in the congregation whowere starting to say, well,
maybe there's no resurrection ofthe dead, and so it's a
wonderful answer to that.
And you read through the wholechapter and you just have this
wonderful portrayal of theresurrection as it's really the
heart of the gospel that savesus and doesn't just talk about
(06:21):
the resurrection but presentsevidence for it too.
Paul talks about how the risenChrist appeared to Peter and
then to the 12, and then afterthat to over 500 witnesses at
the same time and so on, and soit also kind of helps from a
scriptural apologetic point ofview, maybe in terms of giving a
(06:42):
defense for the divinity ofChrist and for the forgiveness
of our sins in his resurrection.
So 1 Corinthians 15 is loadedwith all kinds of wonderful
things.
Bob Fleischmann (06:56):
One of the great things about Easter season
is it makes the Christian faithfar more than just a social
network type thing.
In other words, it creates thiscontinuity that takes us into
eternity.
There's a lot of people whotalk about the Christian faith
more as kind of like a goodmoral code to live by and so
forth, but it's really, with theaccount of the resurrection,
(07:18):
frames everything.
I like the part where Paulmakes a comment about if all we
have to believe in is Jesus inthis life, then we're to be
pitied more than all thismessage of the resurrection
which creates kind of the form,kind of the paradigm really with
everything we do, everything wedo at CLR, certainly, but even
(07:39):
just everything we do asindividual Christians,
everything we do is individualChristians.
Christa Potratz (07:42):
Yeah, could you expand a little bit on that
concept where we link Christ'sresurrection with our faith and
salvation?
Piet Van Kampen (07:56):
Well, yeah, there's a good chunk of the
chapter that deals withspecifically that topic and it
kind of addresses it from thatstandpoint of if there's no
resurrection like the peoplewere arguing well then Christ
isn't raised either.
And so if you could justimagine, let's just say Jesus
didn't rise and let's just saythere's a body buried somewhere
in the world, and what wouldthat actually mean for us as
(08:20):
Christians?
And Paul points out thatwithout Christ's resurrection,
any preaching of the gospel orour faith would basically be
pointless, that all of uspastors that are preaching on
Sunday morning would be breakingthe second commandment every
week because we'd be lying inGod's name, we'd be committing
the worst kind of blasphemythere is if Christ isn't raised.
(08:41):
He goes on to say if Christ hasnot been raised, your faith is
futile, your faith is pointless,you're still in your sins.
Jesus' death on the cross meantnothing, because if he didn't
rise, well then he's just someguy who died and who claimed to
be somebody, but who reallywasn't.
He really was just like therest of us.
Might as well just close upshop and go home right now.
(09:12):
That's kind of what Bob washitting at or talking about a
minute ago when he talked about.
If our hope for jesus, our hopefor christ, is only in this
life, well then it's.
We're the most pitiful peopleof all.
And then paul says butthankfully, there is a
resurrection from the dead.
Because he says, in fact,christ has been raised from the
dead, the first fruits of thosewho have fallen asleep, asleep.
And he goes on to talk aboutthe fact that, because Jesus
rose, well, in Christ all of usare going to be made alive too.
(09:34):
We can trust that our sins areforgiven and that one day we're
going to enter eternal life withour Lord.
So it's a central thing to ourlife and it's in great contrast
to the predominant message weget in the world today too,
which is that this life is allthere is and that when this life
(09:57):
is over, well, you're done.
No, because Christ is raised,we have an eternity to look
forward to with a glorified body.
Christa Potratz (10:04):
Yeah, there's moments where you read the
scriptures and it just I don'tknow, it just really hits you
like man.
Okay, they had these questions2,000 years ago too.
I mean because so many peoplenowadays just like what you were
saying too, also really seem toquestion the resurrection and
(10:24):
what does that mean, and thesignificance and everything, and
they were even so much closerto it, but there was already
those questions coming up.
And so because when you hearPaul speak these words and when
I read it, I just think abouthow awesome it is to hear him
now, but then it was also soneat 2,000 years ago for people
(10:49):
to be listening to that andhearing that too.
Bob Fleischmann (10:52):
Well, you know, when Pete was talking about,
christ hadn't been raised.
There's a body flying someplaceto be found, all that kind of
stuff.
This presented a very uniqueproblem for the Corinthians
because he said not only was heseen by the people identified,
and then 500, and then he saidsome of those have fallen asleep
, which means some of those havedied, but some of them are
(11:14):
still around to that day.
And so the Corinthians had avery unique challenge.
If they wanted to deny theresurrection, they had trouble
because there were eyewitnessesstill walking around.
There were still eyewitnessesthat they can consult with.
And yeah, I was thinking toowhen Pete used the word pitiful.
One other place in scripturewhere the word pitiful is
(11:37):
striking for me is on Revelation.
I think it's Revelation 3.17,the church of Laodicea.
You say I'm rich, I don't needa thing, but you do not realize
you're pitiful or blind andnaked.
So there's a little bit of atheme there that kind of runs
when you're living for the world, there's just a certain
pointlessness to it which makesyour existence pitiful.
Christa Potratz (12:00):
Yeah, and it really is a good lead-in to
another question about just theconnection between the
resurrection and our daily lives.
What would you say is a goodlead-in to another question
about just the connectionbetween the resurrection and our
daily lives?
What would you say is a goodthing to focus on when we talk
about the resurrection and ourdaily lives?
Piet Van Kampen (12:17):
Well, paul hints at a couple of things in
the chapter itself, and I'll getto those in a second, but just
to think too.
First off, this is a chapterthat often gets used at funerals
because of the hope that itgives to us as Christians, and
so if we think about one waythat it impacts our everyday
(12:37):
lives, it's something that inmoments of some of our deepest
sorrow, it gives us great hopeand comfort to know that,
because Christ is arisen, ourloved one who were laying into
the ground today is one daygoing to rise again along with
all of us.
So there's that.
(12:57):
But Paul also talks about acouple of other things here.
He talks about facing dangeroussituations and having courage in
the face of dangeroussituations because of the hope
of the resurrection that we havein Christ.
He says why do we live indanger?
Every hour, day by day, I facedeath as surely as I boast about
(13:21):
you, brothers in Christ Jesus,our Lord.
Paul talks about his owncourage in the face of possibly
dying for the sake of the gospel.
In that way we maybe thinkabout people who serve in the
various helping vocations whereyou're asked to be a first
responder, somebody who's apolice officer or a firefighter
or somebody who's serving in thearmed forces, and the
(13:45):
sacrifices that they're expectedto make.
Where does the courage to makethose sacrifices come from?
Well, if you're a believer, itcomes from knowing that Jesus
lives, and one day I'm going tolive too.
One other area maybe to thinkabout too is just giving our
lives to general purpose andmeaning.
(14:05):
Paul in verses I think it's 32or 33, talks he says if the dead
are not raised, well then wejust give in to the predominant
philosophy of the time, which islet us eat and drink, for
tomorrow we die.
Why bother living a moral life,whereas the resurrection gives
us a sense of delayedgratification?
(14:27):
In the best possible way, I canuse sober judgment, I can live
a life that gives glory to Godand resists temptation, because,
first of all, I know that mysins are forgiven, that I have
that hope of eternal life, butalso when I think about my
example and the need for othersto hear the gospel as well and
(14:50):
to know that Jesus died and rosefor them.
So those are some ways, maybe,that the resurrection touches
our daily lives.
Bob Fleischmann (15:01):
Well, and we have this constant tension.
Really You're either living forthis world or you're living for
something else.
Because a lot of people livefor the world.
We get kind of sucked intothinking like the world, so
primary focus kind of shiftsover to careers and human
relationships and so forth, andas a result, when we do that
(15:23):
shift, we begin to lose sight ofthe fact that when it's
interrupted with the ultimateinterruption, which of course is
death, which shatters all thehopes and dreams for life in
this world, death just kind ofmesses that all up.
And then you get kind of thisopportunity for recalibration,
it's like.
But you don't have a pitifulexistence because your life is
(15:45):
devoted to glorifying God.
That's really what it's allabout.
You live every day recognizingthat it ends the same way for
everyone in death and eventhough it ends, it continues.
And that's exactly what Paultalked to the Thessalonians.
I don't want you to be ignorantabout those who fall asleep.
(16:07):
This resurrection permeates andreally, truth be told, it's what
attracted me to what we do hereat CLR, because when I was a
student at Bethany in Mankato,minnesota, bethany Lutheran
College, I became involved inpro-life stuff and all of my
involvement was on the secularrealm.
(16:28):
I went up to a dinner up atMCCL.
Harold OJ Brown was the speakerand I just remembered always
you've got to fight abortion,you've got to do all that kind
of stuff when we came down, whenwe moved to Milwaukee in 1979
for me to go to the seminary inMequon, I became involved with
what is today Wisconsin Work toLife and again it was very neat,
(16:51):
loved helping protect babies,helping mothers, but it was when
I got wind of this organizationthat deals with these issues or
with abortion at the time, butwithin a Christian context.
So there was something bigger,something deeper that was at
work here and it really I meanthe message of the resurrection.
(17:13):
I think truly, truly, for thebest of my ability is to always
be at the heart of what we'redoing here at CLR.
Christa Potratz (17:20):
Bob makes a really good point too with what
the work and the mission ofChristian Life Resources is with
the resurrection.
Do you have anything to kind ofadd to that Pete with how
Christ's resurrection applies tothe work that is being done at
Christian Life Resources?
Piet Van Kampen (17:40):
Yeah, when you think about the work that we do,
it's just a reminder thateverything is so much bigger and
better in the end than theworld that we have now.
And Paul talks about theperishable being made
imperishable and so on, and usesthat picture of a seed being
(18:02):
planted in the ground as a ananalogy to for for what happens
between the death our death andthe time of our resurrection.
And in confirmation class withthe kids, I talk about corn.
You know what's that littleseed that you plant in the
ground?
What do you call it?
It's corn.
And well, you plant it in theground and get a little water.
(18:25):
And what happens?
By the end of the summer it?
It's a 10-foot stalk.
Well, what do you call that?
Corn?
And you start to understand howdifferent life is going to be
in the resurrection.
Lately, bob's been writing a lotabout assisted suicide and
euthanasia.
(18:45):
And you think about the problemsof getting older, the problems
of pain and disease, and how oneday we're never going to have
to worry about any of thosethings ever again because Christ
is raised from the dead andwe're going to be raised too.
Or we think about people findreasons to abort babies.
(19:08):
Or you think about peopleaborting babies for Down
syndrome or all these otherchronic conditions and so on,
and to think that you know, inthe resurrection period,
children that are born withthose conditions, those
conditions won't be a problemanymore and there's an eternal
future that we all have to lookforward to.
(19:28):
And it gives a perspective toour work that is just not found
in the secular world, even onthe pro-life side, in secular
society just that grand futurethat God has planned for us.
And it gives us comfort andencouragement.
It gives us a lot of comfort,especially when you think about
(19:52):
kind of the dark times thatwe're living in.
I think personally for myselfas somebody who's pro-life, that
, being pro-life in general,you're kind of facing an uphill
battle right now in terms ofwhat society thinks.
There's a lot of fear andsometimes it can feel a little
(20:13):
pointless, and yet to know thatthis bigger plan that God has
and that we're part of that,there's kind of always two sides
to the work that we do at CLR.
Bob Fleischmann (20:24):
You know, there's the side of the audience
which is oftentimes the peoplewho want or are seeking
assistance in suicide or they'relooking for an abortion.
They're looking to do thingsthat are contrary to the will of
God, and so you've got theirperspective, and a lot of times
talk of resurrection is not ontheir radar.
They're talking about gettingby the next 24 hours.
(20:46):
They're talking about gettingby the diagnosis, getting by the
pain, whatever trauma hasaffected them.
And then there's this side, andthat is as the worker, and I
would say that in the last 10years or so, the message of the
resurrection has and I know thissounds crazy for somebody who's
been in ministry for over 40years, but for me the
(21:08):
resurrection has kind ofrecalibrated my view on this
side.
Why?
Because think about it this wayPsalm 23, though I walk through
the valley of the shadow ofdeath, I will fear no evil, for
you are with me.
Well, I don't know about you,but almost everybody I deal with
Christian, non-christian has acertain element of fear when
they're walking through thevalley of the shadow of death,
(21:30):
including family members ofsomeone walking through the
valley.
There, just there seems to befear.
And yet he says you don't haveto be afraid.
He says if people challenge you, they strike you in one cheek.
Give them the other side.
Let them hit the other cheek.
If they take your coat, givethem your jacket.
They force you to walk one mile, walk two miles.
I mean, why else are you goingto do that, especially if you're
(21:51):
living for the world?
There is no incentive to dothat.
Living for the world, it onlyhas to do when you understand
the broader context of eternallife.
I'm happy for the last 10 yearswhere this has become clearer
for me.
But I'm happy for the last 10years where this has become
clear for me, but I'm frustratedas to where it was the first 58
years.
Christa Potratz (22:09):
I really enjoy this chapter.
I mean, I encourage all of ourlisteners to read it.
Not going to lie, though, it isa pretty lengthy chapter in
scripture I think it has over 50verses in it but it really
progresses in kind of this neatway as well, when we're talking
about Christ's resurrection andthen, yeah, just like how you
(22:30):
were saying Bob, there's this nofear aspect of it.
So when Paul gets to that pointtoo where he just says I'm
surrounded by death all day long, and just that idea, it is very
comforting too.
We do get to see some realcomfort in it, and I think you
mentioned some of that Pete too,with the comfort and
(22:51):
encouragement that it provides.
Specifically in verse 58 ofthat chapter it says Therefore,
my dear brothers, be steadfast,immovable, always bounding in
the Lord's work, because youknow that your labor is not in
vain in the Lord.
Verses like that in particularreally seem to kind of hit home
(23:13):
with some of the stuff thatwe're also doing with
Christian-like resources too.
Piet Van Kampen (23:19):
Yeah, when you think about those words, your
labor is not in vain in the Lord.
Without the Lord, all our laborwould be in vain.
But in the Lord, the same Jesuswho died and rose again, the
same Jesus who's coming soon toraise all the dead, is alive and
at work in this fallen world,and he is working through our
(23:42):
faithful labor.
And so, as we encounter peoplewho are in need or are suffering
, as we deal with people who aremaybe trying to get around
God's will and are looking forcounsel or permission, we can be
(24:02):
immovable and steadfast in whatthe truth of God's word says
about life and about eternallife in Jesus.
You think about how much workthere is to do.
I know Bob's list is notgetting any shorter.
Christa Potratz (24:21):
We keep adding things to it.
Piet Van Kampen (24:25):
Everybody at CLR works very hard and is busy
doing the work that needs to bedone.
And sometimes you know you getinvolved in some things and
maybe it feels like, well, Idon't know that I accomplished
that much or not getting muchdone.
And yet you know you can alsotrust that in Christ, nothing
(24:46):
that you do in his love, nothingyou do, is pointless.
Even the smallest task is stillkingdom work.
Christa Potratz (24:59):
Yeah, and I have to remind myself that as
I'm wiping noses for my kids andcleaning up milk on the floor
again, of that I mean that is acomfort in everything that we do
, knowing that our work is forthe Lord.
Bob Fleischmann (25:16):
Yeah, you know, it really is incredible that we
get so distracted by the worldthat we, you know, we'll let the
things of the world frustrateus, and so forth.
And yet I struck by howscripture so often uses the
analogy of planting seed.
I always like to use theanalogy that what we do here is
(25:38):
always investing and the worldlooks for instant gratification,
you know.
In other words, you know I'mgoing to take a bucket of money
and I'm going to invest it andI'm going to project when I'm
going to get a return and whenthat will be, you know, and so
forth, and we have all thesemetrics.
And then, of course, you get tothe Christian faith, which is
(25:58):
planting.
It's talking about Jesus.
It's not up to us to convertanybody.
We just simply tell peopleabout it and let the message,
let the work of the Holy Spirittake place.
But the point is is, when we'retalking to people about the
resurrection of Jesus, it can befrustrating.
(26:20):
But, as we've encountered onpast podcasts, we've talked to
people, we've talked tocounselors and so forth who
share a message in a contentioussituation unplanned pregnancy,
whatever, a lot of emotion andso forth and it bears fruit, and
not always the kind of fruityou're expecting.
(26:41):
Sometimes it's not that justsomebody decides not to have an
abortion, sometimes they stillhave an abortion, but somehow
the message permeates out into abroader audience and it creates
another thought and anotheropportunity.
And again, without theresurrection, there is nothing.
We have nothing to anchor on,and I can tell you already, as
(27:04):
the guy who spends part of hiscareer studying all this stuff
on technology and artificialintelligence and how we're going
to be able to take humanconsciousness and implant it in
so that people can keep onliving.
It's not happening.
All you have to do is look atit with your eyes open.
But the thing is is you'vealready got it because of the
resurrection of Jesus Christ,and it's our job to tell people.
(27:25):
You don't have to hold out forlongevity studies, you don't
have to hold out for perfectingcomputing so that you can load
your full consciousness intosomething, because you've got it
already because of Jesus Christand the resurrection.
Christa Potratz (27:41):
Any final thoughts before we go?
Resurrection, any final?
Piet Van Kampen (27:43):
thoughts before we go.
You know just when we thinkabout Easter.
Bob just nailed it when he saidwe have nothing without the
resurrection, and with theresurrection we have everything.
(28:08):
We have a Savior who loves us,we have a God who has forgiven
us, we have forever with ourLord, in an existence that will
make everything in this lifepale in comparison, and that's
the comfort that we get to livewith each and every day, and
it's the comfort that we get toshare, especially with those who
need it the most, and so it's aprivilege to be able to do that
.
Christa Potratz (28:27):
Well, thank you very much, Pastor Van Kampen,
for joining us today, and wereally appreciate it you taking
the time to talk with us aboutthe resurrection.
Piet Van Kampen (28:39):
Thanks for having me.
Christa Potratz (28:40):
No problem, and we thank all of our listeners,
too, for joining us.
Thanks for having me.
No problem, and we thank all ofour listeners too for joining
us, and if you have anyquestions on this episode or any
other, please reach out to usat lifechallengesus.
Thanks a lot, bye.
Paul Snamiska (28:52):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of
the Life Challenges podcast fromChristian Life Resources.
Please consider subscribing tothis podcast, giving us a review
wherever you access it andsharing it with friends.
We're sure you have questionson today's topic or other life
issues.
Our goal is to help you throughthese tough topics and we want
you to know we're here to help.
(29:14):
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
suggestions for future episodes,at lifechallengesus or email us
at podcast atchristianliferesourcescom.
In addition to the podcasts, weinclude other valuable
information at lifechallengesus,so be sure to check it out.
(29:35):
For more about our parentorganization, please visit
christianliferesourcescom.
May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge.
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Have you ever wondered what life might be like if you stopped worrying about being wanted, and focused on understanding what you actually want? That was the question Hope Woodard asked herself after a string of situationships inspired her to take a break from sex and dating. She went "boysober," a personal concept that sparked a global movement among women looking to prioritize themselves over men. Now, Hope is looking to expand the ways we explore our relationship to relationships. Taking a bold, unfiltered look into modern love, romance, and self-discovery, Boysober will dive into messy stories about dating, sex, love, friendship, and breaking generational patterns—all with humor, vulnerability, and a fresh perspective.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com