September 17, 2024 • 36 mins
What if robots could fundamentally change our daily lives by 2040? Join us as we explore this and more with futurist Thomas Frey on this riveting episode of Life Challenges. Join us as we speculate on the astonishing advancements expected in the coming decades and how rapid technological innovations like AI, driverless cars, and designer babies are reshaping our world.
We then shift our focus to a critical demographic issue: the declining birth rates in South Korea and other developed nations. Despite substantial financial incentives, these countries struggle to boost their birth rates, and cultural factors play a significant role. We discuss the broader global trend of aging populations and analyze potential solutions that involve not just policy changes but also cultural shifts and the integration of advanced technology like AI and robotics.
Looking ahead, we delve into the fascinating future of humanoid robots and their potential societal impacts. Imagine a world where robots handle household chores, provide emotional support, and even become part of our families. Thomas Frey provides thought-provoking insights on the ethical and social implications of such a future, including job displacement and the necessity of human oversight. As we wrap up, we underscore the importance of adapting to these changes to stay relevant in an increasingly automated world. Tune in for a comprehensive look at how these futuristic trends could shape our decisions today and tomorrow.
SHOW NOTES:
Thomas Frey's website: https://futuristspeaker.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christa Potratz (00:00):
on today's episode.
Thomas Frey (00:02):
So I have to remind people that the cars that we
drive today have been indevelopment for over 120 years,
so it's taken that long to getto cars that are this good.
So the robots that we seecoming out today we're in the
very crude stages.
We're in the Egyptian sundialstage of development on these
(00:25):
robots.
So something that comes outtoday by 2040, 2050, is going to
look much more human-like, muchmore capable, have much better
conversations with.
These things will carry on lotsof the tasks that we did as
(00:49):
humans.
Paul Snamiska (00:50):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources.
People today face manyopportunities and struggles when
it comes to issues of life anddeath, marriage and family,
health and science.
We're here to bring a freshbiblical perspective to these
issues and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz (01:16):
Hi and welcome back.
I'm Krista Potratz, here withPastor Bob Fleischman, and today
we have a special guest with us.
We have Tom Fry and, as some ofour listeners might recall, we
have had him before on thepodcast.
I was thinking back.
I think it was three years agothat we had you on the podcast.
Paul Snamiska (01:37):
Oh, it was three years ago, okay.
Christa Potratz (01:38):
Yep, yep, you spoke at the Christian Life
Resources National Conventionand then I met with you at the
convention and talked to you fora little bit there, and that
was right when we were startingthe podcast and so I think you
were maybe even our first guest.
I'd love to start by you justtelling us a little bit about
yourself for people that don'tknow.
(01:59):
And you are a futurist, and soI'm sure there's a lot of people
that maybe don't know what thatis too.
Thomas Frey (02:06):
So I work as a futurist and I get that question
a lot what is a futurist?
So let me explain how I justifythe work that I do.
I think of a futurist as justexpanding people's understanding
about what the future holds.
But we're a verybackward-looking society.
We're backward-looking becausewe've all personally experienced
(02:29):
the past.
We look around us, we seeevidence of the past all around
us.
In fact, all information wecome into contact with is
essentially history.
So the past is very knowable,and yet we're going to be
spending the rest of our livesin the future.
So it's almost as if we'rewalking backwards into the
(02:52):
future.
My job as a futurist is to helpturn people around, to give them
some idea of what the futuremight hold.
So when you ask the question,how does the future get created?
Well, the future gets createdin the minds of everybody around
us.
We all participate in creatingthe future, but I use this
phrase quite a bit the futurecreates the present.
This is just the opposite ofwhat most people think.
Most people think that whatwe're doing today is going to
(03:15):
create the future, but from alittle different perspective.
These images of the future thatwe hold in our minds determine
our actions today.
So here's the key thing If Ichange somebody's vision of the
future, I change the way theymake decisions today, and that's
how I justify everything that Ido.
Bob Fleischmann (03:36):
Yeah that's a great explanation.
Christa Potratz (03:39):
Yeah, yeah, you know, and I was going to kind
of ask too today we are going tobe talking about population and
robots and that type of thing.
I was thinking about threeyears ago too, and I think you
know the things we were talkingabout then were the driverless
cars, and we also maybe likewhat was it like the super
(03:59):
humans or the super babies?
Thomas Frey (04:02):
Oh, yeah, designer babies.
Christa Potratz (04:04):
Designer babies yes, where you have to be super
kids and super babies, oh yeah,designer babies.
Thomas Frey (04:05):
Designer babies yes , or you have to be super kids
and super humans.
Christa Potratz (04:08):
Yeah, and just you know the changes maybe in
the last three years and so muchfocus on AI and just different
things.
And so when you're talkingabout how we're shaping the
present, I mean it's justinteresting to think like what
we were talking about threeyears ago and what maybe the
focus is now.
Thomas Frey (04:27):
Yeah, three years ago is ancient history.
That was a long time ago.
Bob Fleischmann (04:36):
Well, you know I often say that one of the
problems I have.
I teach a course inbiotechnology and I refuse to
have a formal textbook becauseit's obsolete that it shows up
in your mailbox.
Everything's changing veryquickly.
Christa Potratz (04:50):
Well, one of the things we want to talk about
is robots and this idea ofmaybe robots replacing the
population, and so I want tokind of maybe start by talking
about the population too, andjust what we're kind of noticing
with that.
Thomas Frey (05:06):
Well, recently I was asked to give a talk on a
super low birth rate in Korea,and this is a big event the
Asian Leadership Conference overthere and it started off with
the president of Korea talkingabout how Korea has the lowest
birth rate of any country in theworld and they're going to
(05:31):
dedicate a lot of money intotrying to turn this around,
because by 2040, every personthat's working will have to
support three retired people.
And this is when systems startbreaking, start collapsing,
falling apart.
Now Korea is similar to Japanin that they don't really want
(05:52):
to go into immigration becausethey want to keep the culture
pure, the race pure, sort ofpure anyway.
And then when you talk to theyoung girls over there, they
don't even think about havingkids because that's just, uh,
they don't.
Well, one thing is they don'tlike marrying Korean men because
(06:15):
it's such a male, maledominated culture over there.
So, anyway, the child rate hasjust plummeted child birth rate
and so spent a lot of timetrying to figure out, okay, how
do we turn this around?
(06:36):
And they've been doing a lot ofgiveaway programs.
I mean, just, if you have kids,we'll give you this amount of
money, and if you have more kids, you'll have a lot more money,
and then, if you have three kidsor more'll have a lot more
money.
And then, if you have threekids or more, we'll give you a
minivan.
That's a pretty good incentive,but it really hasn't changed
the birth rate at all, and sothey haven't raised the needle
(06:57):
one bit.
I have some ideas on how to goabout doing that, but they're
all pretty unproven.
I think it has a lot to do withstatus in the community and
that your status in thecommunity depends on how many
kids you have, and right nowyour status goes up if you have
fewer kids.
(07:17):
I think it could be turnedaround your status would go up
if you had more kids, but that'sgoing to take quite a bit of
cultural shifting over there tomake that happen.
Bob Fleischmann (07:29):
Tom, you and I have talked many times.
Just so everybody knows, tomand I have been friends for 30
years or so now.
Yeah, at least Tom was veryinstrumental in helping me get
New Beginnings.
The home for mothers started inColorado before we moved it
over to Wisconsin.
When you talk about changingculture, I think you and I have
(07:50):
had conversations where ittakes— there's kind of like a—I
always remember you telling methat it took like a generation
to adopt new technology.
When it came to like cellphones and things like that.
Cultural change I mean it hasramifications on a theological
level.
Even Cultural change is like amonumental task.
I mean it's just likegenerations.
Thomas Frey (08:11):
Right, right, yeah, it does take a long time,
although that timeframe isshifting quickly, though.
With AI, it just seemed likeeverybody gravitated to AI
almost instantly because it madethings so much easier.
Yeah, I'm finding unique anddifferent ways of using it
almost every day, so a great wayto use it is you can write your
(08:36):
grandkids a personalizedbedtime story every night, every
night.
So you want a story about yourgrandchild fighting trolls up in
the forest.
You can do that, and then youcan ask it to create a picture
for that story, and you can dothat too.
(08:57):
And voila, you have a bedtimestory just ready to go.
Christa Potratz (09:02):
It's very personal.
Some of these things too, likewe're talking with south korea
and everything real interesting,um, with the birth rate and I I
mean that really is maybe aproblem in a lot of developed
countries.
Right, we're kind of seeingthat well uh.
Thomas Frey (09:22):
Japan's birth rate has started declining before
Korea's did.
Japan now has the problem ofhaving 9 million empty houses.
These houses are all in ruralcommunities outside of the big
metro areas.
It's a supply and demandequation.
There's no demand for thesehouses out there, so they're
(09:43):
just set empty.
If you want to buy a cheaphouse, you can buy one in Japan
right now.
You have to get there, though.
I mean you have to, yeah.
So around the world, the wholeAfrican continent is still
having kids.
They're a positive birth rate.
You need 2.1 kids per female onaverage to maintain an even
(10:07):
population.
Africa is above that.
There's two other countries,pakistan and Bolivia, but there
may be some other outliers outthere, but for the most part,
the world in general has stoppedhaving kids.
(10:30):
Now we're getting tons ofmessaging every day.
We have climate change going on.
The world can't support thismany people on planet Earth, and
so we've got to have fewer kids.
We hear that again and againand again, and it comes in all
kinds of other forms too.
So there's a preponderance ofpeople out there thinking that
(10:51):
we'd just be way better off ifour planet would be better off
having fewer kids.
The environment would be better, our system would be better,
our cities would be better, butthey have no clue what it would
be like going through thisdeclining birth rate when
(11:11):
suddenly your house that you'reliving in, the value of your
house starts plummeting to atenth of what you spent on
buying it a tenth of what youspent on buying it.
They have no idea what it'slike going through just this
(11:32):
collapsing supply and demandequation, because that can
happen very quickly and thenjust dealing with an aging
population where we have medicaladvances, where we live longer.
I mean, if we suddenly retireat 65 and then live another 120
years, none of our systems work.
So we have lots of systems.
(11:53):
We currently have a lot ofsystems in crisis mode already
and we'll have even more whenthat happens.
Bob Fleischmann (12:02):
So where do you think robots are going to fit
into this, because there havebeen some remarkable changes.
Christa Potratz (12:06):
Well, and I kind of just too wonder like
what you even think of like is arobot?
I mean before this, like wewere talking about the Jetsons,
and what was it, rosie?
The maid and stuff.
To me, like that's like what Istill think of when I think of
robot, like I think of somethingthat looks like a human moving
(12:27):
around and stuff, but I don'teven really think that's what
robot really is.
Thomas Frey (12:32):
I don't know yeah, most of them will be dog robots.
No, I'm just kidding.
Bob Fleischmann (12:38):
I was like wow, that's fascinating.
We do have a lot of dog robots.
Thomas Frey (12:42):
You know it brings up a lot of questions of why a
dog, why not?
Christa Potratz (12:47):
a cat.
Thomas Frey (12:47):
Why not a giraffe?
Why not a cow?
Christa Potratz (12:49):
But I think there's so many robots that just
don't even look human.
Thomas Frey (12:54):
Right.
So the transition is happeningquickly, in that we're seeing
major advances in humanoidrobots to kind of act and touch
and feel the way humans do.
And so, if you ask the question, by 2040, how many households
(13:16):
will own their own robot, theirown humanoid robot?
I think the number is going tobe pretty substantial.
It may only be 10 or 20% atthat time, but that's a sizable
number.
And then we're going to starthearing from people oh you know,
I could just have a robot.
I don't really need a kid.
(13:38):
Kids are a lot of work.
They're just a lot of workevery way you look at it.
So I think I'd rather have arobot than a kid.
I don't want to have to wake upat night with feeding this baby
.
And then it becomes a logicalquestion of do the robots
actually replace the kids thatwe're not having?
(14:00):
See your question, though,about what is a robot.
There's lots of your question,though, about what is a robot.
There's lots of ways ofanswering that.
In the past, we had robots thatwere as minimal as just an arm
on a conveyor belt that wouldslide things to the side.
We had lots of automated thingslike that.
People considered those robots,but we'll ask this.
(14:23):
We'll continue to ask thisquestion in the future.
If we build a closet that has arecommendation engine in it
that pulls out clothes for youthat it thinks you should wear
that day, is that a roboticcloset?
If you stand in front of amirror and it kind of tells you
(14:44):
what makeup you should put onthat day or how you should fix
your hair, is that a roboticmirror?
If we have cars that drive uswhere we want to go, is that a
robotic car?
And so the word robot's kind ofa general term that could be
used for a lot of differentthings.
(15:04):
But I'm thinking here in termsof this humanoid robot and think
of a five-year-old kid growingup, having his own personal
little robot that goes around,that's his little personal buddy
, and they go out and play onthe playground together, have
(15:24):
lots of conversations, and sothen you only need one kid, you
don't need two, because thesetwo get along really well and
the robot gets along way betterthan another human would with
that kid.
Bob Fleischmann (15:39):
Well, and first of all, let me just pause right
there and just say there's aside of me that's going okay.
This is just getting reallybizarre.
How can this really be?
But if you're aware of what'sgoing on out there, all of these
components take place.
Japan has been working onfacial features that allow it to
grimace and smile andeverything so that it looks
(16:02):
human.
That could be done over arobotic head, and then they've
got sensors put in the robot sothat they can react.
They've got robots that run andjump and maintain their balance
better than humans do.
Now, if you take that and youstart combining everything, I
did a thing for my board, theboard of directors, where I
(16:23):
talked about and we did anepisode on it where we talked
about all these different crazycomponents come together and you
could actually have kind oflike Star Trek's next generation
data, the android.
That's not inconceivableanymore and there's all sorts of
there's comfort animals thatare robotic for the elderly.
(16:43):
So it's those will get muchbetter.
Thomas Frey (16:48):
So I have to remind people that the cars that we
drive today have been indevelopment for over 120 years,
so it's taken that long to getto cars that are this good.
So the robots that we seecoming out today, we're in the
very crude stages.
We're in the Egyptian sundialstage of development on these
(17:11):
robots.
It's going to look much morehuman-like, much more capable,
have much better conversationswith.
These things will carry on lotsof the tasks that we did as
(17:35):
humans.
So, if you, let me ask you somequestions.
If you have a robot that cancook your meals for you, are you
still going to go out fordinner, or would you be more
inclined to invite people overand have dinner with company and
have your robot serve them?
If you had a robot that wasable to wash all your dishes for
(17:58):
you, do you still need to buy adishwasher?
The one question I always keepcoming back to is at what stage
will the robot comedian befunnier than a human comedian?
Christa Potratz (18:10):
They might already be funnier.
Yeah, some of them.
Yeah, yeah.
Bob Fleischmann (18:15):
Yeah Well you know, tom, when you were talking
about a child talking with itsrobot companion.
You know right now, you know AIis that far along that.
It's come up numerous times inChristian blogs and so forth
that AI is being used now forgrief.
When you're grieving somebody,you can talk to this AI and it
(18:36):
becomes a friend and it becomessympathetic.
And then there's concerns aboutcreating an emotional
attachment.
When you were describing achild talking with its robotic
friend, can you imagine whenit's time to replace that
robotic friend with an olderrobotic friend to match the
child growing up?
There's going to be drama, likea death in the family.
Thomas Frey (18:58):
Right right.
Will you actually replace it oryou just change out parts till
it works better?
Upgrade Keeps the same head.
Christa Potratz (19:10):
Well, I think you know too, and we talk about
the jobs of robots, okay, likewashing the dishes or doing
things.
I mean that all sounds reallygreat to me and everything, but
what are maybe, like, thelimitations of robots?
Like what are robots not goingto be able to do?
Thomas Frey (19:26):
Well, if you spend all your time with a robot,
buddy, do you actually becomemore lonely or less lonely in
the world?
A robot will not buy a house.
A robot will not go out andstart a store on Main Street to
(19:47):
fill in the empty storefronts onMain Street.
Although there might be robotstores, you can go in and buy
different robots, but yeah, sorobots typically won't have
their own bank accounts.
Yeah, I was asking thatquestion.
(20:09):
A different conversation aboutshould a robot have its own bank
account, Because you send therobot off to the grocery store
to buy groceries for you.
Should it have its own bankaccount so somebody doesn't hack
into your bank account?
Do you want to separate it thatway?
Bob Fleischmann (20:28):
Well, you know, and one of the issues that have
risen as far as a limitation is, they keep talking about the
refinement of AI and the abilityof AI to be self-learning, but
one of the things that they havefound is that it quickly
multiplies error.
In other words, if AI were tolearn incorrectly, that would be
(20:48):
a problem.
And, of course, part of theproblem is that it's like most
things in the area of ethics orbioethics is that the progress
is outpacing our ability tomentally process it.
You know, like we're not evenquite sure how humans make all
their judgments that they make,and yet we're kind of turning
(21:10):
over that to AI in some places.
Thomas Frey (21:13):
Right, I've actually gotten into quite a few
arguments with AI and it willapologize and give me a
different point of view and itseems that I'm violently
disagreeing with it.
Bob Fleischmann (21:28):
And you know, AI is, like many things in the
world, incredible blessing untilyou start abusing it.
Paul Snamiska (21:34):
Yeah.
Bob Fleischmann (21:34):
And because of our sinful inclination, we get
to the point to start abusing.
You know it just happens witheverything.
You know, a car is wonderful,car is wonderful.
I have to run and get aprescription.
I just hop in the car and 20minutes I'm back home.
It's great with a car.
If I had to saddle up the horseand pull the wagon and
(21:56):
everything.
We're talking a day trip.
You appreciate it, but then youstart getting reckless with the
car.
You're not paying attention,you run over someone, you hit a
wall, whatever.
Many things can be abused.
And the problem is that I mean,I love technology, I love the
potential of all thoseadvancements, but I'm scared to
(22:17):
death of how it can go bad, howit can go wrong.
Thomas Frey (22:21):
Well see, robots don't have any needs.
The only needs that a robot hasis to have a repair person be
able to repair the robot.
And then also, I like to thinkthey need a robot polisher,
somebody that can polish therobot, but that's about all.
They don't need food, theydon't need to buy anything at a
(22:43):
grocery store, they don't evenneed oxygen, they don't need
water supply.
What does a robot really need?
And the fact that we all arevery needy people.
That's what creates our economy, and so, without any needs,
then the economy dries up andstarts falling apart.
Bob Fleischmann (23:06):
Isn't the concern that if we create a
robot to cater to my needs andmy needs are nefarious, you know
, I want your car, I want yourTV, I want your riches, you
riches?
Where you then use your robotwrongly I mean as close to a
(23:27):
robot as I get around here is wehave a little robotic vacuum we
call Rosie.
It's hard for me to abuse Rosie.
I mean it isn't like I'll teachyou.
You go over and vacuum theneighbor's house for me and I'll
teach them.
It isn't like I'll teach you.
You go over and vacuum theneighbor's house for me and I'll
teach them, but it doesn'thappen.
(23:47):
But you can see, or maybe notsee, as much as people raise the
prospect that they could beprogrammed and used for wrong
purposes.
Thomas Frey (24:06):
Invariably we're going to have nefarious people
who use things wrong.
There will be people who userobots to figure out how to rob
banks and how to steal thingsfrom people.
That starts getting prettycrazy.
And then where things getreally squirrely is that when we
start growing human flesh ontorobots, then this becomes a
version of robots called fleshbots.
That's where all the rulesstart changing.
(24:30):
Is the goal to have a robot,then that looks human where we
won't maybe be able to tell thedifference or that type of thing
, Maybe be able to tell thedifference or that type of thing
.
Yeah, For some people it'llalways be kind of.
(24:54):
We're always looking for theultimate form of something.
I always say that there's threethings in life where the human
body comes in contact with thenatural world in the most ways,
and that's the beds that wesleep in, the chairs that we sit
in and the shoes that we walkin.
And it always seems to me thatwe're on this never-ending quest
(25:17):
to get the ultimate form ofbeds and shoes and chairs to
make our lives easier.
So it seems like the robots willbe on this never-ending quest
to create a robot that hasadditional capabilities that
nobody ever thought of before.
So can we build a videoprojector into this robot so it
(25:41):
can just walk around and projectimages on walls and ceilings
and stuff?
Can we have a robot thatcreates fog in a room so we have
every?
Maybe it would be on a rock androll stage or something like
that.
We'd have a fog robot runningaround creating fog.
(26:04):
Yeah, that's probably a reallystupid example, but yeah, you
can start imagining Sounds fun.
You can start imagining whatthey would do with all these
robots.
Bob Fleischmann (26:19):
Yeah Well, and getting to kind of the topic,
and that is that roboticassistance to replace our
children.
Probably at the core of thatissue is more of the ethical
question is how do we viewchildren?
You know what is the role ofchildren in our lives, and how
(26:39):
does a void that children wouldfill be replaced by what a robot
would fill?
And actually the most realisticthing you said that alarms me
is the child with the roboticfriend.
I can definitely see thatbecause you know, first of all,
children are competitive, andthey're not only competitive,
(27:00):
they can be selfish.
You know, so that's my roboticfriend, what You're going to
have another child, but that'smy friend.
I'm not going to share it witha brother or sister.
They get their own friend.
Well, in other words, you get alot of that.
So you have your one child, sothat hopefully it's someone that
can help care for you as youget older, if that's the void
you're looking for.
(27:20):
But then would a robot be ableto do that for you, and will it
do it well or right, or can youhave, as you get older, you go
into a home that has a lot ofrobots and maybe one human to
every 50 patients because you'vegot all this robotic assistance
(27:41):
.
Thomas Frey (27:42):
Yeah.
Bob Fleischmann (27:43):
Then you don't need your children.
Thomas Frey (27:44):
Well, there's going to be a lot of things that
robots can do better than humans.
They'll probably be better atfixing things and doing
maintenance.
Bob Fleischmann (27:54):
Repetition things.
I think they would be.
Thomas Frey (27:57):
Industrial things like mining and spray painting
cars, and things like mining andspray painting cars and things
like that that are just theseare things that humans don't
like to do anyway.
Things in super coldenvironments.
We send them down to Antarcticato do research, help people
doing research down there, andthen certainly somebody's going
(28:20):
to figure out how to create arobot army.
That goes without saying.
They probably have got a lot ofpeople working on that right
now.
So robots are going to beemployed in virtually every way
we can think of, and probably200 more that we haven't thought
of.
Bob Fleischmann (28:40):
You know a lot of people who've contacted me on
the future of things and wherethey're going.
They'll ask the question.
You know we should stay awayfrom this.
We shouldn't avoid it.
I just don't think that that'san option.
I think, rather, we need tocreate a framework within which
we function with them, becauseto some degree we've got it
already.
I have a routine here that thismorning, before we recorded this
(29:04):
podcast, I was gettingbreakfast going and so forth,
and so I tell my little homespeaker to set an alarm, tell me
when a certain thing is up,when the alarm goes off, when I
have to pull the food out of theoven.
I have other automated things.
I was in a video conferencewith someone that there's a lot
(29:26):
of automation assigned there.
We embrace a lot of automation.
You sit in your car and youhave a lot of automation and so
we tend to use it.
And you know, I think it'simportant to harness things and
to find the good in it, fullyaware of the fact that people
will use it to do bad.
And you know, I know in thispodcast we focus a lot on kind
(29:50):
of the ethical end of how thesethings work and we spend so much
time.
I see a lot of papers writtenthat come across my desk where,
you know, people are making abig argument that we should stay
far away from it.
We should do it, but I don'tthink you have that choice.
I think it's around you and ifyou aren't a player, you're
going to be in trouble, I think.
Thomas Frey (30:12):
Yeah, Invariably we will have people that justify
having fewer kids or no kidsjust because they can have robot
kids.
I think that the arguments thatthey come up with surrounding
(30:33):
that are ones that we'll have tolearn how to debate that
thinking on a lot of differentlevels.
It's entirely possible that youget to a point where the
population dwindles down tovirtually nothing.
Bob Fleischmann (30:53):
Well, and we're old enough.
We were raised in the 70s whenthey came out with the big
population explosion book.
Christa Potratz (31:01):
Not all of us.
Not all of us.
I keep forgetting.
Yeah, there is a child among us.
Bob Fleischmann (31:06):
But I mean, you know, in that time, you know
there was a big deal about thepopulation explosion.
You know that really is a mythand people are.
You know we've talked aboutpopulation on this podcast.
I've got a robotic vacuum thatdoesn't replace a kid for me.
I've got a robotic vacuum thatdoesn't replace a kid for me.
It barely replaces anyone doingthe vacuuming for me because it
(31:27):
still doesn't do as good of ajob as I wish.
I think when we look at thethreats that we feel from them,
we've got to first of allevaluate why do we feel it's a
threat and how can we be apositive force to counter the
threat.
And so you know, like children,I like children, I like a lot
of children.
I mean, are children a headache?
(31:48):
You bet they can be a headache.
Can they be a problem?
You bet they can be a problem,you know, and so can robots you
know.
But the thing is is that, youknow, from a biblical
perspective, we were commandedto have children, you know, be
fruitful and multiply Commanded,it's a blessing.
I mean, we were commanded tohave children, you know, be
fruitful and multiply Commanded,it's a blessing.
I mean, we're allowed to do it.
When Tom talks about the daycoming where you shrink that
(32:11):
population, how do you holddominion over the earth when
you're doing it with less people?
Now, you might in yourimagination, you know, say we
can do it robotically, we can doit with AI and so forth, but
really it has its naturallimitations.
It doesn't have a lot of theinherent needs of humans, like
you said, you know food andstuff like that, but it still
(32:33):
has its limitations.
And you know, human beings seemto be the ones that drive it.
I mean, think about it, humanbeings are the ones who create
the robots.
Christa Potratz (32:51):
Yeah, ones that drive it.
I mean, think about it Humanbeings are the ones who create
the robots Right?
Thomas Frey (32:54):
Is there anything else we should mention on robots
or anything to maybe kind ofend with that we'd like to just
bring up?
I love the robots.
I love the idea that they cancome along with me and help me
with all kinds of things.
It's something that I visualize, giving us additional
capabilities so we canaccomplish so much more in a day
than we ever could in the past.
(33:16):
So a lot of these technologiesare amplifying our capabilities.
A lot of these technologies areamplifying our capabilities.
So, if you think of by 2050 asan example, each of us could
accomplish 20, maybe 50 times asmuch as the average person
today, and so the idea that allour jobs are going to go away is
(33:40):
a total fallacy, because wewill be creating so many more
businesses, so many more jobs,just because of this additional
capability.
That's not realistic that thosejobs will go away.
I think we'll end up with morejobs than we know what to do
(34:01):
with.
Bob Fleischmann (34:01):
That's what I think, but they'll be different.
Thomas Frey (34:03):
They'll be different, much different, and
any college degree that you gettoday will be outdated and won't
apply.
Christa Potratz (34:11):
Well, that's a depressing thought.
Thank you so much for this.
It's always very interestingtalking to you because it's such
a different perspective onthings.
Thomas Frey (34:25):
Yeah Well, it's an amazing world and we're entering
times that's kind of unchartedterritory.
Bob Fleischmann (34:32):
Yeah, more so now than ever.
Christa Potratz (34:34):
Well, thank you both and we thank all of our
listeners, and if you have anyquestions on this topic, you can
reach out to Bob, he'll answerthem all.
Bob Fleischmann (34:41):
Oh yeah, sure, Because I know how to get a hold
of Tom.
Yeah, sochristianliferesourcescom, and
we'll also provide a link toTom's website too.
Christa Potratz (34:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
Bob Fleischmann (34:52):
You can go right to him.
Christa Potratz (34:55):
Well, have a good one, and we'll see you back
next time.
Bye.
Paul Snamiska (34:59):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of
the Life Challenges podcast fromChristian Life Resources.
Please consider subscribing tothis podcast, giving us a review
wherever you access it andsharing it with friends.
We're sure you have questionson today's topic or other life
issues.
Our goal is to help you throughthese tough topics and we want
you to know we're here to help.
(35:20):
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
suggestions for future episodes,at lifechallengesus or email us
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In addition to the podcasts, weinclude other valuable
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(35:42):
For more about our parentorganization, please visit
christianliferesourcescom.
May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge.
on today's episode.
Thomas Frey (00:02):
So I have to remind people that the cars that we
drive today have been indevelopment for over 120 years,
so it's taken that long to getto cars that are this good.
So the robots that we seecoming out today we're in the
very crude stages.
We're in the Egyptian sundialstage of development on these
(00:25):
robots.
So something that comes outtoday by 2040, 2050, is going to
look much more human-like, muchmore capable, have much better
conversations with.
These things will carry on lotsof the tasks that we did as
(00:49):
humans.
Paul Snamiska (00:50):
Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from
Christian Life Resources.
People today face manyopportunities and struggles when
it comes to issues of life anddeath, marriage and family,
health and science.
We're here to bring a freshbiblical perspective to these
issues and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz (01:16):
Hi and welcome back.
I'm Krista Potratz, here withPastor Bob Fleischman, and today
we have a special guest with us.
We have Tom Fry and, as some ofour listeners might recall, we
have had him before on thepodcast.
I was thinking back.
I think it was three years agothat we had you on the podcast.
Paul Snamiska (01:37):
Oh, it was three years ago, okay.
Christa Potratz (01:38):
Yep, yep, you spoke at the Christian Life
Resources National Conventionand then I met with you at the
convention and talked to you fora little bit there, and that
was right when we were startingthe podcast and so I think you
were maybe even our first guest.
I'd love to start by you justtelling us a little bit about
yourself for people that don'tknow.
(01:59):
And you are a futurist, and soI'm sure there's a lot of people
that maybe don't know what thatis too.
Thomas Frey (02:06):
So I work as a futurist and I get that question
a lot what is a futurist?
So let me explain how I justifythe work that I do.
I think of a futurist as justexpanding people's understanding
about what the future holds.
But we're a verybackward-looking society.
We're backward-looking becausewe've all personally experienced
(02:29):
the past.
We look around us, we seeevidence of the past all around
us.
In fact, all information wecome into contact with is
essentially history.
So the past is very knowable,and yet we're going to be
spending the rest of our livesin the future.
So it's almost as if we'rewalking backwards into the
(02:52):
future.
My job as a futurist is to helpturn people around, to give them
some idea of what the futuremight hold.
So when you ask the question,how does the future get created?
Well, the future gets createdin the minds of everybody around
us.
We all participate in creatingthe future, but I use this
phrase quite a bit the futurecreates the present.
This is just the opposite ofwhat most people think.
Most people think that whatwe're doing today is going to
(03:15):
create the future, but from alittle different perspective.
These images of the future thatwe hold in our minds determine
our actions today.
So here's the key thing If Ichange somebody's vision of the
future, I change the way theymake decisions today, and that's
how I justify everything that Ido.
Bob Fleischmann (03:36):
Yeah that's a great explanation.
Christa Potratz (03:39):
Yeah, yeah, you know, and I was going to kind
of ask too today we are going tobe talking about population and
robots and that type of thing.
I was thinking about threeyears ago too, and I think you
know the things we were talkingabout then were the driverless
cars, and we also maybe likewhat was it like the super
(03:59):
humans or the super babies?
Thomas Frey (04:02):
Oh, yeah, designer babies.
Christa Potratz (04:04):
Designer babies yes, where you have to be super
kids and super babies, oh yeah,designer babies.
Thomas Frey (04:05):
Designer babies yes , or you have to be super kids
and super humans.
Christa Potratz (04:08):
Yeah, and just you know the changes maybe in
the last three years and so muchfocus on AI and just different
things.
And so when you're talkingabout how we're shaping the
present, I mean it's justinteresting to think like what
we were talking about threeyears ago and what maybe the
focus is now.
Thomas Frey (04:27):
Yeah, three years ago is ancient history.
That was a long time ago.
Bob Fleischmann (04:36):
Well, you know I often say that one of the
problems I have.
I teach a course inbiotechnology and I refuse to
have a formal textbook becauseit's obsolete that it shows up
in your mailbox.
Everything's changing veryquickly.
Christa Potratz (04:50):
Well, one of the things we want to talk about
is robots and this idea ofmaybe robots replacing the
population, and so I want tokind of maybe start by talking
about the population too, andjust what we're kind of noticing
with that.
Thomas Frey (05:06):
Well, recently I was asked to give a talk on a
super low birth rate in Korea,and this is a big event the
Asian Leadership Conference overthere and it started off with
the president of Korea talkingabout how Korea has the lowest
birth rate of any country in theworld and they're going to
(05:31):
dedicate a lot of money intotrying to turn this around,
because by 2040, every personthat's working will have to
support three retired people.
And this is when systems startbreaking, start collapsing,
falling apart.
Now Korea is similar to Japanin that they don't really want
(05:52):
to go into immigration becausethey want to keep the culture
pure, the race pure, sort ofpure anyway.
And then when you talk to theyoung girls over there, they
don't even think about havingkids because that's just, uh,
they don't.
Well, one thing is they don'tlike marrying Korean men because
(06:15):
it's such a male, maledominated culture over there.
So, anyway, the child rate hasjust plummeted child birth rate
and so spent a lot of timetrying to figure out, okay, how
do we turn this around?
(06:36):
And they've been doing a lot ofgiveaway programs.
I mean, just, if you have kids,we'll give you this amount of
money, and if you have more kids, you'll have a lot more money,
and then, if you have three kidsor more'll have a lot more
money.
And then, if you have threekids or more, we'll give you a
minivan.
That's a pretty good incentive,but it really hasn't changed
the birth rate at all, and sothey haven't raised the needle
(06:57):
one bit.
I have some ideas on how to goabout doing that, but they're
all pretty unproven.
I think it has a lot to do withstatus in the community and
that your status in thecommunity depends on how many
kids you have, and right nowyour status goes up if you have
fewer kids.
(07:17):
I think it could be turnedaround your status would go up
if you had more kids, but that'sgoing to take quite a bit of
cultural shifting over there tomake that happen.
Bob Fleischmann (07:29):
Tom, you and I have talked many times.
Just so everybody knows, tomand I have been friends for 30
years or so now.
Yeah, at least Tom was veryinstrumental in helping me get
New Beginnings.
The home for mothers started inColorado before we moved it
over to Wisconsin.
When you talk about changingculture, I think you and I have
(07:50):
had conversations where ittakes— there's kind of like a—I
always remember you telling methat it took like a generation
to adopt new technology.
When it came to like cellphones and things like that.
Cultural change I mean it hasramifications on a theological
level.
Even Cultural change is like amonumental task.
I mean it's just likegenerations.
Thomas Frey (08:11):
Right, right, yeah, it does take a long time,
although that timeframe isshifting quickly, though.
With AI, it just seemed likeeverybody gravitated to AI
almost instantly because it madethings so much easier.
Yeah, I'm finding unique anddifferent ways of using it
almost every day, so a great wayto use it is you can write your
(08:36):
grandkids a personalizedbedtime story every night, every
night.
So you want a story about yourgrandchild fighting trolls up in
the forest.
You can do that, and then youcan ask it to create a picture
for that story, and you can dothat too.
(08:57):
And voila, you have a bedtimestory just ready to go.
Christa Potratz (09:02):
It's very personal.
Some of these things too, likewe're talking with south korea
and everything real interesting,um, with the birth rate and I I
mean that really is maybe aproblem in a lot of developed
countries.
Right, we're kind of seeingthat well uh.
Thomas Frey (09:22):
Japan's birth rate has started declining before
Korea's did.
Japan now has the problem ofhaving 9 million empty houses.
These houses are all in ruralcommunities outside of the big
metro areas.
It's a supply and demandequation.
There's no demand for thesehouses out there, so they're
(09:43):
just set empty.
If you want to buy a cheaphouse, you can buy one in Japan
right now.
You have to get there, though.
I mean you have to, yeah.
So around the world, the wholeAfrican continent is still
having kids.
They're a positive birth rate.
You need 2.1 kids per female onaverage to maintain an even
(10:07):
population.
Africa is above that.
There's two other countries,pakistan and Bolivia, but there
may be some other outliers outthere, but for the most part,
the world in general has stoppedhaving kids.
(10:30):
Now we're getting tons ofmessaging every day.
We have climate change going on.
The world can't support thismany people on planet Earth, and
so we've got to have fewer kids.
We hear that again and againand again, and it comes in all
kinds of other forms too.
So there's a preponderance ofpeople out there thinking that
(10:51):
we'd just be way better off ifour planet would be better off
having fewer kids.
The environment would be better, our system would be better,
our cities would be better, butthey have no clue what it would
be like going through thisdeclining birth rate when
(11:11):
suddenly your house that you'reliving in, the value of your
house starts plummeting to atenth of what you spent on
buying it a tenth of what youspent on buying it.
They have no idea what it'slike going through just this
(11:32):
collapsing supply and demandequation, because that can
happen very quickly and thenjust dealing with an aging
population where we have medicaladvances, where we live longer.
I mean, if we suddenly retireat 65 and then live another 120
years, none of our systems work.
So we have lots of systems.
(11:53):
We currently have a lot ofsystems in crisis mode already
and we'll have even more whenthat happens.
Bob Fleischmann (12:02):
So where do you think robots are going to fit
into this, because there havebeen some remarkable changes.
Christa Potratz (12:06):
Well, and I kind of just too wonder like
what you even think of like is arobot?
I mean before this, like wewere talking about the Jetsons,
and what was it, rosie?
The maid and stuff.
To me, like that's like what Istill think of when I think of
robot, like I think of somethingthat looks like a human moving
(12:27):
around and stuff, but I don'teven really think that's what
robot really is.
Thomas Frey (12:32):
I don't know yeah, most of them will be dog robots.
No, I'm just kidding.
Bob Fleischmann (12:38):
I was like wow, that's fascinating.
We do have a lot of dog robots.
Thomas Frey (12:42):
You know it brings up a lot of questions of why a
dog, why not?
Christa Potratz (12:47):
a cat.
Thomas Frey (12:47):
Why not a giraffe?
Why not a cow?
Christa Potratz (12:49):
But I think there's so many robots that just
don't even look human.
Thomas Frey (12:54):
Right.
So the transition is happeningquickly, in that we're seeing
major advances in humanoidrobots to kind of act and touch
and feel the way humans do.
And so, if you ask the question, by 2040, how many households
(13:16):
will own their own robot, theirown humanoid robot?
I think the number is going tobe pretty substantial.
It may only be 10 or 20% atthat time, but that's a sizable
number.
And then we're going to starthearing from people oh you know,
I could just have a robot.
I don't really need a kid.
(13:38):
Kids are a lot of work.
They're just a lot of workevery way you look at it.
So I think I'd rather have arobot than a kid.
I don't want to have to wake upat night with feeding this baby
.
And then it becomes a logicalquestion of do the robots
actually replace the kids thatwe're not having?
(14:00):
See your question, though,about what is a robot.
There's lots of your question,though, about what is a robot.
There's lots of ways ofanswering that.
In the past, we had robots thatwere as minimal as just an arm
on a conveyor belt that wouldslide things to the side.
We had lots of automated thingslike that.
People considered those robots,but we'll ask this.
(14:23):
We'll continue to ask thisquestion in the future.
If we build a closet that has arecommendation engine in it
that pulls out clothes for youthat it thinks you should wear
that day, is that a roboticcloset?
If you stand in front of amirror and it kind of tells you
(14:44):
what makeup you should put onthat day or how you should fix
your hair, is that a roboticmirror?
If we have cars that drive uswhere we want to go, is that a
robotic car?
And so the word robot's kind ofa general term that could be
used for a lot of differentthings.
(15:04):
But I'm thinking here in termsof this humanoid robot and think
of a five-year-old kid growingup, having his own personal
little robot that goes around,that's his little personal buddy
, and they go out and play onthe playground together, have
(15:24):
lots of conversations, and sothen you only need one kid, you
don't need two, because thesetwo get along really well and
the robot gets along way betterthan another human would with
that kid.
Bob Fleischmann (15:39):
Well, and first of all, let me just pause right
there and just say there's aside of me that's going okay.
This is just getting reallybizarre.
How can this really be?
But if you're aware of what'sgoing on out there, all of these
components take place.
Japan has been working onfacial features that allow it to
grimace and smile andeverything so that it looks
(16:02):
human.
That could be done over arobotic head, and then they've
got sensors put in the robot sothat they can react.
They've got robots that run andjump and maintain their balance
better than humans do.
Now, if you take that and youstart combining everything, I
did a thing for my board, theboard of directors, where I
(16:23):
talked about and we did anepisode on it where we talked
about all these different crazycomponents come together and you
could actually have kind oflike Star Trek's next generation
data, the android.
That's not inconceivableanymore and there's all sorts of
there's comfort animals thatare robotic for the elderly.
(16:43):
So it's those will get muchbetter.
Thomas Frey (16:48):
So I have to remind people that the cars that we
drive today have been indevelopment for over 120 years,
so it's taken that long to getto cars that are this good.
So the robots that we seecoming out today, we're in the
very crude stages.
We're in the Egyptian sundialstage of development on these
(17:11):
robots.
It's going to look much morehuman-like, much more capable,
have much better conversationswith.
These things will carry on lotsof the tasks that we did as
(17:35):
humans.
So, if you, let me ask you somequestions.
If you have a robot that cancook your meals for you, are you
still going to go out fordinner, or would you be more
inclined to invite people overand have dinner with company and
have your robot serve them?
If you had a robot that wasable to wash all your dishes for
(17:58):
you, do you still need to buy adishwasher?
The one question I always keepcoming back to is at what stage
will the robot comedian befunnier than a human comedian?
Christa Potratz (18:10):
They might already be funnier.
Yeah, some of them.
Yeah, yeah.
Bob Fleischmann (18:15):
Yeah Well you know, tom, when you were talking
about a child talking with itsrobot companion.
You know right now, you know AIis that far along that.
It's come up numerous times inChristian blogs and so forth
that AI is being used now forgrief.
When you're grieving somebody,you can talk to this AI and it
(18:36):
becomes a friend and it becomessympathetic.
And then there's concerns aboutcreating an emotional
attachment.
When you were describing achild talking with its robotic
friend, can you imagine whenit's time to replace that
robotic friend with an olderrobotic friend to match the
child growing up?
There's going to be drama, likea death in the family.
Thomas Frey (18:58):
Right right.
Will you actually replace it oryou just change out parts till
it works better?
Upgrade Keeps the same head.
Christa Potratz (19:10):
Well, I think you know too, and we talk about
the jobs of robots, okay, likewashing the dishes or doing
things.
I mean that all sounds reallygreat to me and everything, but
what are maybe, like, thelimitations of robots?
Like what are robots not goingto be able to do?
Thomas Frey (19:26):
Well, if you spend all your time with a robot,
buddy, do you actually becomemore lonely or less lonely in
the world?
A robot will not buy a house.
A robot will not go out andstart a store on Main Street to
(19:47):
fill in the empty storefronts onMain Street.
Although there might be robotstores, you can go in and buy
different robots, but yeah, sorobots typically won't have
their own bank accounts.
Yeah, I was asking thatquestion.
(20:09):
A different conversation aboutshould a robot have its own bank
account, Because you send therobot off to the grocery store
to buy groceries for you.
Should it have its own bankaccount so somebody doesn't hack
into your bank account?
Do you want to separate it thatway?
Bob Fleischmann (20:28):
Well, you know, and one of the issues that have
risen as far as a limitation is, they keep talking about the
refinement of AI and the abilityof AI to be self-learning, but
one of the things that they havefound is that it quickly
multiplies error.
In other words, if AI were tolearn incorrectly, that would be
(20:48):
a problem.
And, of course, part of theproblem is that it's like most
things in the area of ethics orbioethics is that the progress
is outpacing our ability tomentally process it.
You know, like we're not evenquite sure how humans make all
their judgments that they make,and yet we're kind of turning
(21:10):
over that to AI in some places.
Thomas Frey (21:13):
Right, I've actually gotten into quite a few
arguments with AI and it willapologize and give me a
different point of view and itseems that I'm violently
disagreeing with it.
Bob Fleischmann (21:28):
And you know, AI is, like many things in the
world, incredible blessing untilyou start abusing it.
Paul Snamiska (21:34):
Yeah.
Bob Fleischmann (21:34):
And because of our sinful inclination, we get
to the point to start abusing.
You know it just happens witheverything.
You know, a car is wonderful,car is wonderful.
I have to run and get aprescription.
I just hop in the car and 20minutes I'm back home.
It's great with a car.
If I had to saddle up the horseand pull the wagon and
(21:56):
everything.
We're talking a day trip.
You appreciate it, but then youstart getting reckless with the
car.
You're not paying attention,you run over someone, you hit a
wall, whatever.
Many things can be abused.
And the problem is that I mean,I love technology, I love the
potential of all thoseadvancements, but I'm scared to
(22:17):
death of how it can go bad, howit can go wrong.
Thomas Frey (22:21):
Well see, robots don't have any needs.
The only needs that a robot hasis to have a repair person be
able to repair the robot.
And then also, I like to thinkthey need a robot polisher,
somebody that can polish therobot, but that's about all.
They don't need food, theydon't need to buy anything at a
(22:43):
grocery store, they don't evenneed oxygen, they don't need
water supply.
What does a robot really need?
And the fact that we all arevery needy people.
That's what creates our economy, and so, without any needs,
then the economy dries up andstarts falling apart.
Bob Fleischmann (23:06):
Isn't the concern that if we create a
robot to cater to my needs andmy needs are nefarious, you know
, I want your car, I want yourTV, I want your riches, you
riches?
Where you then use your robotwrongly I mean as close to a
(23:27):
robot as I get around here is wehave a little robotic vacuum we
call Rosie.
It's hard for me to abuse Rosie.
I mean it isn't like I'll teachyou.
You go over and vacuum theneighbor's house for me and I'll
teach them.
It isn't like I'll teach you.
You go over and vacuum theneighbor's house for me and I'll
teach them, but it doesn'thappen.
(23:47):
But you can see, or maybe notsee, as much as people raise the
prospect that they could beprogrammed and used for wrong
purposes.
Thomas Frey (24:06):
Invariably we're going to have nefarious people
who use things wrong.
There will be people who userobots to figure out how to rob
banks and how to steal thingsfrom people.
That starts getting prettycrazy.
And then where things getreally squirrely is that when we
start growing human flesh ontorobots, then this becomes a
version of robots called fleshbots.
That's where all the rulesstart changing.
(24:30):
Is the goal to have a robot,then that looks human where we
won't maybe be able to tell thedifference or that type of thing
, Maybe be able to tell thedifference or that type of thing
.
Yeah, For some people it'llalways be kind of.
(24:54):
We're always looking for theultimate form of something.
I always say that there's threethings in life where the human
body comes in contact with thenatural world in the most ways,
and that's the beds that wesleep in, the chairs that we sit
in and the shoes that we walkin.
And it always seems to me thatwe're on this never-ending quest
(25:17):
to get the ultimate form ofbeds and shoes and chairs to
make our lives easier.
So it seems like the robots willbe on this never-ending quest
to create a robot that hasadditional capabilities that
nobody ever thought of before.
So can we build a videoprojector into this robot so it
(25:41):
can just walk around and projectimages on walls and ceilings
and stuff?
Can we have a robot thatcreates fog in a room so we have
every?
Maybe it would be on a rock androll stage or something like
that.
We'd have a fog robot runningaround creating fog.
(26:04):
Yeah, that's probably a reallystupid example, but yeah, you
can start imagining Sounds fun.
You can start imagining whatthey would do with all these
robots.
Bob Fleischmann (26:19):
Yeah Well, and getting to kind of the topic,
and that is that roboticassistance to replace our
children.
Probably at the core of thatissue is more of the ethical
question is how do we viewchildren?
You know what is the role ofchildren in our lives, and how
(26:39):
does a void that children wouldfill be replaced by what a robot
would fill?
And actually the most realisticthing you said that alarms me
is the child with the roboticfriend.
I can definitely see thatbecause you know, first of all,
children are competitive, andthey're not only competitive,
(27:00):
they can be selfish.
You know, so that's my roboticfriend, what You're going to
have another child, but that'smy friend.
I'm not going to share it witha brother or sister.
They get their own friend.
Well, in other words, you get alot of that.
So you have your one child, sothat hopefully it's someone that
can help care for you as youget older, if that's the void
you're looking for.
(27:20):
But then would a robot be ableto do that for you, and will it
do it well or right, or can youhave, as you get older, you go
into a home that has a lot ofrobots and maybe one human to
every 50 patients because you'vegot all this robotic assistance
(27:41):
.
Thomas Frey (27:42):
Yeah.
Bob Fleischmann (27:43):
Then you don't need your children.
Thomas Frey (27:44):
Well, there's going to be a lot of things that
robots can do better than humans.
They'll probably be better atfixing things and doing
maintenance.
Bob Fleischmann (27:54):
Repetition things.
I think they would be.
Thomas Frey (27:57):
Industrial things like mining and spray painting
cars, and things like mining andspray painting cars and things
like that that are just theseare things that humans don't
like to do anyway.
Things in super coldenvironments.
We send them down to Antarcticato do research, help people
doing research down there, andthen certainly somebody's going
(28:20):
to figure out how to create arobot army.
That goes without saying.
They probably have got a lot ofpeople working on that right
now.
So robots are going to beemployed in virtually every way
we can think of, and probably200 more that we haven't thought
of.
Bob Fleischmann (28:40):
You know a lot of people who've contacted me on
the future of things and wherethey're going.
They'll ask the question.
You know we should stay awayfrom this.
We shouldn't avoid it.
I just don't think that that'san option.
I think, rather, we need tocreate a framework within which
we function with them, becauseto some degree we've got it
already.
I have a routine here that thismorning, before we recorded this
(29:04):
podcast, I was gettingbreakfast going and so forth,
and so I tell my little homespeaker to set an alarm, tell me
when a certain thing is up,when the alarm goes off, when I
have to pull the food out of theoven.
I have other automated things.
I was in a video conferencewith someone that there's a lot
(29:26):
of automation assigned there.
We embrace a lot of automation.
You sit in your car and youhave a lot of automation and so
we tend to use it.
And you know, I think it'simportant to harness things and
to find the good in it, fullyaware of the fact that people
will use it to do bad.
And you know, I know in thispodcast we focus a lot on kind
(29:50):
of the ethical end of how thesethings work and we spend so much
time.
I see a lot of papers writtenthat come across my desk where,
you know, people are making abig argument that we should stay
far away from it.
We should do it, but I don'tthink you have that choice.
I think it's around you and ifyou aren't a player, you're
going to be in trouble, I think.
Thomas Frey (30:12):
Yeah, Invariably we will have people that justify
having fewer kids or no kidsjust because they can have robot
kids.
I think that the arguments thatthey come up with surrounding
(30:33):
that are ones that we'll have tolearn how to debate that
thinking on a lot of differentlevels.
It's entirely possible that youget to a point where the
population dwindles down tovirtually nothing.
Bob Fleischmann (30:53):
Well, and we're old enough.
We were raised in the 70s whenthey came out with the big
population explosion book.
Christa Potratz (31:01):
Not all of us.
Not all of us.
I keep forgetting.
Yeah, there is a child among us.
Bob Fleischmann (31:06):
But I mean, you know, in that time, you know
there was a big deal about thepopulation explosion.
You know that really is a mythand people are.
You know we've talked aboutpopulation on this podcast.
I've got a robotic vacuum thatdoesn't replace a kid for me.
I've got a robotic vacuum thatdoesn't replace a kid for me.
It barely replaces anyone doingthe vacuuming for me because it
(31:27):
still doesn't do as good of ajob as I wish.
I think when we look at thethreats that we feel from them,
we've got to first of allevaluate why do we feel it's a
threat and how can we be apositive force to counter the
threat.
And so you know, like children,I like children, I like a lot
of children.
I mean, are children a headache?
(31:48):
You bet they can be a headache.
Can they be a problem?
You bet they can be a problem,you know, and so can robots you
know.
But the thing is is that, youknow, from a biblical
perspective, we were commandedto have children, you know, be
fruitful and multiply Commanded,it's a blessing.
I mean, we were commanded tohave children, you know, be
fruitful and multiply Commanded,it's a blessing.
I mean, we're allowed to do it.
When Tom talks about the daycoming where you shrink that
(32:11):
population, how do you holddominion over the earth when
you're doing it with less people?
Now, you might in yourimagination, you know, say we
can do it robotically, we can doit with AI and so forth, but
really it has its naturallimitations.
It doesn't have a lot of theinherent needs of humans, like
you said, you know food andstuff like that, but it still
(32:33):
has its limitations.
And you know, human beings seemto be the ones that drive it.
I mean, think about it, humanbeings are the ones who create
the robots.
Christa Potratz (32:51):
Yeah, ones that drive it.
I mean, think about it Humanbeings are the ones who create
the robots Right?
Thomas Frey (32:54):
Is there anything else we should mention on robots
or anything to maybe kind ofend with that we'd like to just
bring up?
I love the robots.
I love the idea that they cancome along with me and help me
with all kinds of things.
It's something that I visualize, giving us additional
capabilities so we canaccomplish so much more in a day
than we ever could in the past.
(33:16):
So a lot of these technologiesare amplifying our capabilities.
A lot of these technologies areamplifying our capabilities.
So, if you think of by 2050 asan example, each of us could
accomplish 20, maybe 50 times asmuch as the average person
today, and so the idea that allour jobs are going to go away is
(33:40):
a total fallacy, because wewill be creating so many more
businesses, so many more jobs,just because of this additional
capability.
That's not realistic that thosejobs will go away.
I think we'll end up with morejobs than we know what to do
(34:01):
with.
Bob Fleischmann (34:01):
That's what I think, but they'll be different.
Thomas Frey (34:03):
They'll be different, much different, and
any college degree that you gettoday will be outdated and won't
apply.
Christa Potratz (34:11):
Well, that's a depressing thought.
Thank you so much for this.
It's always very interestingtalking to you because it's such
a different perspective onthings.
Thomas Frey (34:25):
Yeah Well, it's an amazing world and we're entering
times that's kind of unchartedterritory.
Bob Fleischmann (34:32):
Yeah, more so now than ever.
Christa Potratz (34:34):
Well, thank you both and we thank all of our
listeners, and if you have anyquestions on this topic, you can
reach out to Bob, he'll answerthem all.
Bob Fleischmann (34:41):
Oh yeah, sure, Because I know how to get a hold
of Tom.
Yeah, sochristianliferesourcescom, and
we'll also provide a link toTom's website too.
Christa Potratz (34:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
Bob Fleischmann (34:52):
You can go right to him.
Christa Potratz (34:55):
Well, have a good one, and we'll see you back
next time.
Bye.
Paul Snamiska (34:59):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of
the Life Challenges podcast fromChristian Life Resources.
Please consider subscribing tothis podcast, giving us a review
wherever you access it andsharing it with friends.
We're sure you have questionson today's topic or other life
issues.
Our goal is to help you throughthese tough topics and we want
you to know we're here to help.
(35:20):
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
suggestions for future episodes,at lifechallengesus or email us
at podcast atchristianliferesourcescom.
In addition to the podcasts, weinclude other valuable
information at lifechallengesus,so be sure to check it out.
(35:42):
For more about our parentorganization, please visit
christianliferesourcescom.
May God give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in Christ for
every life challenge.
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