July 30, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode, we explore the rise of AI browsers and their potential to transform web navigation. Reflecting on the static nature of traditional browsers, we question if AI represents a genuine evolution or just a cosmetic upgrade.
We share our experiences with Perplexity's Comet and Microsoft’s Edge and debate the future of intuitive AI interfaces. Don't miss our upcoming interview with Perplexity's CEO as we consider whether AI browsers are revolutionary or simply a nostalgic echo!
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TIMESTAMPS
0:00 Intro
1:23 The Evolution of Browsers
2:34 The Rise of AI Browsers
3:27 Players in the AI Browser Market
5:31 Personal Experiences with AI Browsers
11:09 Examples and Use Cases
14:50 The Future of AI Browsers
17:45 Envisioning the Next Generation of Browsers
26:51 Next Up on Limitless
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RESOURCES
Josh: https://x.com/Josh_Kale
Ejaaz:https://x.com/cryptopunk7213
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Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here:
https://www.bankless.com/disclosures
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Josh:
So since the year 1990 that's 35 years (00:03):
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Josh: ago pretty much everyone who's listening to this both of us we've (00:06):
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Josh: been using an application exclusively for navigating the web (00:09):
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Josh: and that's the browser right we've all used a web browser before whether (00:12):
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Josh: it be chrome or safari or the millions of (00:15):
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Josh: other options that we've used they've all been pretty much (00:18):
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Josh: the same if you look at a browser from the 1990s versus browser for (00:20):
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Josh: today it's really just a url bar and a (00:23):
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Josh: screen and the screen displays the information and that's that's (00:26):
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Josh: how we've interacted with the internet forever but just recently (00:29):
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Josh: thanks to the invents of ai and all these companies (00:32):
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Josh: who are building really interesting applications on top of it we now (00:35):
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Josh: have a new type of browser an ai browser an agentic browser (00:38):
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Josh: that will do a lot of the browser tasks for you (00:41):
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Josh: and that's going to be the topic of today's episode is ai browsers (00:44):
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Josh: it's like the browser you know and love but it is super smart super enhanced (00:48):
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Josh: and we'll do a lot of the tedious work that you normally do all for you ijaz (00:52):
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Josh: you've been going deep in this world of ai browsers can you can you lay out (00:57):
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Josh: the space how it's working who's involved what it actually means to be an ai browser i (01:00):
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Ejaaz: Was just thinking about um your comment on we've been using browsers for about (01:05):
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Ejaaz: 35 years do you remember the internet explorer days josh where we had to double (01:10):
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Ejaaz: click this golden or blue e-icon and then kind of wait 10 seconds for it to load. (01:16):
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Ejaaz: Then we had to manually type in a web address, www. (01:23):
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Ejaaz: And we've just come incredibly far since then. (01:27):
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Ejaaz: And yeah, to answer your question directly, I think that this is a natural progression (01:31):
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Ejaaz: of where AI needs to be in everyone's lives. (01:37):
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Ejaaz: So to kind of like zoom out for a second, we had this massive explosion when (01:40):
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Ejaaz: GPT-2 or GPT-3 came to life from OpenAI. (01:45):
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Ejaaz: And it was this magical moment where we had this kind of like chat messenger, (01:49):
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Ejaaz: and we could ask the smartest person in the room, that being GPT, (01:53):
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Ejaaz: any question, and it can give us an answer. (01:57):
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Ejaaz: It can teach us things, it can sometimes do things for us, and connect us in (01:59):
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Ejaaz: different ways with information. (02:03):
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Ejaaz: Kind of like how Google did when they created their search engine. (02:05):
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Ejaaz: It became the doorstep to the internet. (02:08):
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Ejaaz: You know, it's the homepage. It's the thing that everyone opens when they want (02:11):
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Ejaaz: to search something, interact and socialize, or even buy something, right? (02:14):
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Ejaaz: So it makes sense that AI is now (02:19):
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Ejaaz: coming to where most of the context and personal data around someone is. (02:21):
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Ejaaz: And I think if I were to zone in on why I'm so excited about this, (02:27):
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Ejaaz: Josh, is it's exactly that. (02:32):
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Ejaaz: I think it's the most publicly accessible. (02:34):
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Ejaaz: Data set for who you are, right, Josh? (02:37):
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Ejaaz: Like if you if I go on your browser right now, maybe you can share your screen (02:41):
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Ejaaz: or whatever that might be. I'm going to see a bunch of different tabs. (02:44):
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Ejaaz: I'm going to see your Spotify playlist that you're bumping tunes to. (02:46):
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Ejaaz: I'm going to see probably your Amazon list that you're kind of like shopping (02:50):
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Ejaaz: or shipping items to your apartment, and maybe a bunch of other things. (02:53):
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Ejaaz: It tells me who Josh is as a person. (02:56):
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Ejaaz: More so it tells me how he's progressed over the history of time over that day (02:59):
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Ejaaz: over that week, over the last 90 days with your browser history. (03:03):
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Ejaaz: So I think embedding AI into the browser experience is that next step up to (03:07):
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Ejaaz: getting a more personal AI face. (03:12):
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Ejaaz: Do you agree with that, Josh? Or what are your thoughts? (03:14):
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Josh: Yeah, I think that sounds right. I am actually a big agent AI browser hater. (03:17):
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Josh: I think we're going to get into that. I agree that it's very cool, (03:22):
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Josh: but I'm not sure the actual use cases apply. (03:25):
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Josh: Before we do go there, I want to lay out the landscape of who's actually making (03:28):
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Josh: these browsers, who is in this space that we're talking about, (03:31):
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Josh: because there's a notable company missing. (03:34):
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Josh: So we have Perplexity, which has the Comet browser. (03:35):
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Josh: We have Microsoft, which has Edge. We have OpenAI, who is probably going to (03:38):
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Josh: launch one. They've signaled the intention to launch one. (03:42):
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Josh: And then we have the Dia browser by the browser company. (03:44):
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Josh: And notably, the one browser we all use, we're all recording this on right now, (03:47):
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Josh: Chrome, is missing, which is interesting because one of the things that, (03:51):
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Josh: I mean, the reason why Google became so large, one of the big reasons was the (03:55):
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Josh: search engine was Google Chrome. (03:58):
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Josh: And noticeably, they're missing. And when you look at all the search history, (04:00):
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Josh: the revenue from search that Google makes, it's been down only. (04:04):
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Josh: And you would imagine from a search company who's built this browser that is (04:07):
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Josh: the number one company in the world, they'd probably be aiming to build an AI (04:11):
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Josh: browser, but that's not the case. And I think that's probably... (04:15):
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Josh: In line with what we're going to talk about later, why we don't like it. (04:19):
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Josh: But I'm curious if you have any ideas why Google is noticeably missing from (04:22):
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Josh: this group of AI browsers. (04:25):
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Ejaaz: You know what's hilarious? As you were making that point, Josh, (04:27):
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Ejaaz: I was trying to come up with a counter example, which was going on Google's search engine. (04:30):
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Ejaaz: And you know, whenever you search something now, you typically see an AI summary. (04:35):
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Ejaaz: I was going to try and argue that maybe that was an example of them embedding (04:39):
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Ejaaz: some form of AI in their browsing experience, even though it's not explicitly (04:43):
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Ejaaz: Chrome itself, but it's not available. (04:49):
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Ejaaz: I literally can't have access to it. So it seems like they've regressed. (04:53):
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Ejaaz: To answer your question more directly, I think they're likely going to release (04:57):
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Ejaaz: it if I had to hazard a guess. (05:02):
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Ejaaz: And the reason why I say that is they've been so committed to kind of being (05:05):
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Ejaaz: on the frontier at the AI model level. (05:10):
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Ejaaz: So Gemini 2.5 Flash is a frontier model that beats OpenAI's ChatGPT and even (05:12):
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Ejaaz: Claude when it comes to coding and stuff. (05:18):
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Ejaaz: Google has been so focused on AI agents as well. (05:20):
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Ejaaz: And they've also been focused on the scientific side of AI as well, (05:25):
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Ejaaz: which is a realm that none of the other frontier AI labs have even touched. (05:28):
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Ejaaz: So it kind of seems weird that even though they control 66.5% of the browser market share, (05:32):
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Ejaaz: it'll seem weird if they don't come out with a product is what i'm saying i (05:40):
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Ejaaz: don't know i i just feel like it's a waiting game it might come out like next (05:44):
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Ejaaz: week or something like that totally. (05:48):
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Josh: Uh-huh we'll see well we both have tried an ai browser we both had access to (05:49):
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Josh: perplexity they gave us access to the comet browser and we had a chance to use (05:53):
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Josh: it for the last week or two and i would love to hear your impressions because (05:56):
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Josh: I used it. I tried it. I have some takes. (05:59):
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Josh: How have you been using it? How have you been liking it? How have you been disliking (06:02):
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Josh: it? Tell me your personal experience. (06:04):
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Ejaaz: I have a lot to say about this. And I'm keen to actually hear what you say. (06:07):
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Ejaaz: So you described yourself as an AI browser hater. (06:11):
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Ejaaz: I wouldn't call myself a hater. (06:14):
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Ejaaz: But I also wouldn't say this is convincing enough to me to ditch Chrome. (06:16):
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Ejaaz: And to use an AI browser. So as you mentioned, we're using this new AI browser from Perplexity. (06:22):
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Ejaaz: Perplexity, for those of you who don't know, is like a supercharged AI search engine. (06:29):
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Ejaaz: And they released this new product called Perplexity Comet, which is their browser. (06:34):
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Ejaaz: And on this browser, it looks very similar to your Chrome browser or Internet (06:39):
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Ejaaz: Explorer browser. You can have many different tabs. You have a search history. (06:43):
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Ejaaz: You have a toolbar with different settings and stuff. But with one unique feature, (06:47):
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Ejaaz: which is rather several unique features, which is AI is embedded everywhere you go. (06:51):
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Ejaaz: That means if you open up a YouTube page, you have a prompt from your little (06:56):
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Ejaaz: assistant in the bottom right hand corner, which will say, hey, (07:01):
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Ejaaz: do you want me to summarize this video for you so that you don't have to spend (07:04):
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Ejaaz: 30 minutes watching this? (07:06):
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Ejaaz: Or you can go into a shopping website and say, hey, I can actually sort for (07:09):
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Ejaaz: you the best deals for what you're looking for, because I read your email because (07:13):
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Ejaaz: you connected me to your Gmail account. And so I kind of know that your mom (07:16):
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Ejaaz: shared a list of items for your sister's birthday. (07:20):
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Ejaaz: And I know that you're on Amazon to check what kind of fleece your sister might want or whatever. (07:23):
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Ejaaz: That's a terrible example. I would never buy my fleeces off of Amazon. (07:28):
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Ejaaz: But you get the general idea. (07:32):
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Ejaaz: My high-level takes are as follows. It's great to have an assistant that can (07:35):
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Ejaaz: summarize long articles and posts for me. And the reason why I say that is I (07:41):
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Ejaaz: spend a lot of time reading and researching, Josh. (07:46):
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Ejaaz: We actually do a bunch of that for this show as well, right? (07:49):
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Ejaaz: And sometimes, actually most of the time, it takes a lot of intense focus and (07:51):
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Ejaaz: many hours of my day, right? (07:58):
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Ejaaz: I would say maybe 70% of my working day is spent reading a ton of stuff and trying new things out. (08:00):
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Ejaaz: This does reduce that now to about 20% to 25%, which is a huge reduction. (08:05):
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Ejaaz: Yeah, I'm spending much less time doing this. And you and I have been using (08:11):
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Ejaaz: this browser for about, what, a week now, like as our default browser. (08:15):
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Ejaaz: So it's been super useful. (08:19):
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Ejaaz: The second thing is, and this is a smaller thing, but I think it's important. (08:21):
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Ejaaz: I can finally stop copying and pasting links and paragraphs of text and putting (08:25):
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Ejaaz: it into whatever AI model provider that I'm using, right? (08:32):
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Ejaaz: So typically the format is I would copy tweet links or article links and put (08:36):
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Ejaaz: it in Crock 4 or put it in ChatGPT and then say like, hey, like reference these (08:42):
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Ejaaz: links, summarize this for me. (08:46):
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Ejaaz: Give me some other types of insights that I might have missed. (08:48):
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Ejaaz: And it's just, it seems so small and minor, but not being able to do that is (08:51):
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Ejaaz: way more convenient for me. (08:56):
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Ejaaz: And I just kind of like, I love kind of leaning into that. (08:57):
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Ejaaz: The third thing that stood out for me, Josh, is search is just such a better (09:01):
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Ejaaz: experience now that I have this AI that's always readily available. (09:07):
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Ejaaz: It's kind of like Google search, but it understands the context behind what (09:12):
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Ejaaz: I'm asking it or why I'm asking it. (09:16):
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Ejaaz: And that's really been an unlock for me. So an example might be I've been researching (09:18):
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Ejaaz: a specific technique of how to train AI models. (09:23):
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Ejaaz: This is something I was doing this week where I was trying to figure out how (09:28):
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Ejaaz: China's open source models were so much better than America's, (09:31):
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Ejaaz: even though they have less resources and all that kind of stuff. (09:35):
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Ejaaz: I was trying to figure this out. (09:37):
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Ejaaz: And I was kind of like writing notes in my Google Doc, which perplexity had access to. (09:39):
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Ejaaz: I was kind of like writing up some thoughts. And then I opened up a separate (09:44):
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Ejaaz: tab to search for a specific term. And it already had it preloaded for me. (09:47):
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Ejaaz: So again, it's like basic little things like this, but I like that it makes (09:52):
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Ejaaz: me feel comfortable and heard. (09:55):
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Ejaaz: But that's my take. Well, what about you, Josh? (09:58):
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Josh: Did you? I've, yeah, I used it. No, I signed up for the, we got an invite code. (10:00):
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Josh: I signed up. It was the most gorgeous onboarding experience. (10:06):
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Josh: I have ever had. It was designed incredibly. (10:08):
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Josh: You type in your code, it unlocks this really fancy screed, it has nice music (10:10):
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Josh: playing in the background, you choose your profiles, it was gorgeous. (10:14):
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Josh: And then I opened it up and it's the same as pretty much every other browser. (10:17):
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Josh: In terms of how I used it, I actually used this example that we have on screen (10:20):
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Josh: right now, which one of the interesting things about the AI browser versus a (10:24):
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Josh: traditional LLM that we would use (10:29):
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Josh: like ChatGPT is it doesn't have all the integrations that a browser has. (10:30):
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Josh: So you can connect this AI browser, or in this case, Comet, to your Gmail and (10:34):
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Josh: and actually have it interact with your email for you on your behalf. (10:39):
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Josh: So this example here and what I tried is I get a decent amount of emails that (10:42):
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Josh: I'm subscribed to from something I bought one time or from a community that (10:47):
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Josh: I used to be part of that I don't really care about. (10:50):
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Josh: And you can just kind of ask it to pull the list of everything you're subscribed (10:52):
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Josh: to, and then choose the ones that you want to unsubscribe to. (10:55):
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Josh: And it will do all of the work of doing that for you. (10:58):
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Josh: So immediately after a few minutes of trying this and a few prompts, (11:00):
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Josh: I was able to clear out my inbox from maybe 20 of these garbage emails a day (11:03):
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Josh: to maybe just like three or four of the ones I actually want to receive. (11:07):
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Josh: And that was really cool to me. So in that case, it's really interesting because (11:10):
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Josh: it has the access to integrations that other LLMs don't necessarily have, (11:13):
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Josh: like ChatGPT, like Grok. (11:17):
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Josh: They exist in the silo, whereas this is kind of embedded across the entire browser (11:18):
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Josh: experience. So in that case, it was good. (11:22):
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Josh: I really enjoyed the browser. (11:24):
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Josh: Outside of that, it felt very much just like a normal browser. (11:27):
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Josh: And it was mostly annoying that I just had to re-log into all my accounts again to do the same thing. (11:31):
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Josh: So I went to YouTube and I uploaded a video for this channel and I went to our (11:36):
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Josh: RSS platform and I upload and I was doing the normal things I do. (11:42):
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Josh: And what I realized is I really don't (11:45):
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Josh: use the browser for all that many interesting things that require AI. (11:47):
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Josh: When I want to use AI, I go to a tool Optimize for AI to kind of abstract away (11:51):
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Josh: the complexities of having to use a browser. (11:57):
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Josh: So when I want to learn about something, primarily I use Grok for (11:59):
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Josh: that because grok has the live real-time information (12:01):
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Josh: from x which is normally where i consume most of my information anyway (12:04):
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Josh: and i just have it pull all the aggregated data that i (12:07):
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Josh: want for me versus actually going and trying to find it and as i'm going through (12:10):
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Josh: these use cases of how i use a browser there's less and less that are actually (12:14):
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Josh: interesting i think when people use browsers since the beginning of time they've (12:17):
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Josh: used them for two things right it's like for productivity and for leisure and (12:21):
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Josh: when you're doing work you just kind of interact with these specific apps in the browser. (12:24):
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Josh: So you're using an Excel spreadsheet or you're doing whatever, like uploading a video. (12:29):
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Josh: And then in leisure, you're kind of shopping for something. You're looking through (12:34):
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Josh: clothes. You're watching a YouTube video. You're consuming media. (12:38):
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Josh: And on the leisure end, there's no way that AI can supplement that. (12:41):
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Josh: And then on the productivity end, well, you kind of want AI to exclusively supplement that. (12:46):
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Josh: And you don't want to have to deal with all these annoying interfaces or scraping (12:50):
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Josh: data or getting that information. (12:53):
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Josh: So it puts this browser in kind of a weird spot where I was using it for a few days. (12:55):
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Josh: I was excited about using it for a few days. And then I just kind of didn't (12:58):
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Josh: really have a need to use it anymore. (13:02):
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Josh: I do a lot of the thinking and the analyzing in Grok. I do a lot of the productivity work in ChatGPT. (13:04):
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Josh: And then I just watch YouTube videos on YouTube using the Chrome browser that's (13:10):
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Josh: worked for the last 30 years. (13:13):
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Josh: So that's kind of where it's been weird with the AI agents is it seems cool, (13:15):
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Josh: but I'm not sure there's any sustainable use cases that are very exciting. (13:18):
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Ejaaz: Do you, do you agree, disagree? (13:23):
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Ejaaz: Yeah. I mean, last week we spoke about OpenAI's new agent, right? (13:26):
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Ejaaz: And one of the main takeaways from that episode was, this agent's pretty cool, (13:32):
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Ejaaz: but it's not really adding much value to my life right now. (13:37):
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Ejaaz: Sure, I can jump into my Gmail account and read a bunch of my docs, but okay, and then what? (13:41):
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Ejaaz: Sure, I can research a bunch of clothes that I might want to buy, but then what? (13:51):
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Ejaaz: It doesn't buy anything for me. And I feel like this is the same type of case here, right? (13:55):
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Ejaaz: Where you've added a solution to a place where maybe you don't actually quite need it, right? (13:59):
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Ejaaz: But I want to spend a bit of time arguing what this could be versus what it is right now. (14:06):
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Ejaaz: Because I agree largely with you that it is not as useful as I'd want it to be. (14:11):
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Ejaaz: And I really think you make a good point around the leisure side of things. (14:17):
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Ejaaz: But I want to kind of like think about what this might end up becoming if we (14:20):
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Ejaaz: imagine that everyone's going to have some form of AI agent or companion in the future, right? (14:24):
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Ejaaz: So number one, I think the personal (14:29):
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Ejaaz: AI assistant is going to be a hugely valuable market going forwards. (14:32):
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Ejaaz: I don't quite know how it's going to manifest. (14:37):
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Ejaaz: My idea is it's probably going to be on the work side of things. (14:40):
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Ejaaz: So there's going to be an enterprise-heavy presence of AI agents. (14:45):
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Ejaaz: And we're already seeing that already, where they kind of like plug into your (14:50):
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Ejaaz: workspace, your Slack, and they allow you to do a bunch of things. (14:54):
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Ejaaz: Right now, they kind of suck. (14:56):
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Ejaaz: But eventually, I'm guessing it's going to get better, and it's going to get more intuitive. (14:58):
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Ejaaz: The second thing is, there's this trend, Josh, where I think we're stepping (15:02):
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Ejaaz: away from a lot of the actions that we've grown so used to over the last decade, which is scrolling, (15:08):
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Ejaaz: searching for different apps, downloading apps, (15:16):
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Ejaaz: tapping the screen, and typing letters. (15:21):
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Ejaaz: I think this progression is going to become something more automable where we're (15:24):
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Ejaaz: going to be speaking into a microphone and we just kind of like look at things (15:29):
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Ejaaz: or AI guesses what we already want before we even get there, right? (15:34):
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Ejaaz: There's going to be this like autonomous kind of flow of things. (15:39):
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Ejaaz: I don't think we're there. I think this is a stepping stone. (15:42):
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Ejaaz: I do not think browsers right now are like a 10x improvement over what we had before. (15:44):
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Ejaaz: So I'm with you. Like, I'm just going to use Google Chrome for now. (15:50):
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Ejaaz: But it's a good shot on goal. (15:53):
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Josh: To me, if I'm talking to Perplexity's CEO, which we are talking to in a few (15:55):
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Josh: weeks, I think the idea is why on earth are you spending so much resources in (15:59):
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Josh: this intermediary step? (16:04):
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Josh: Because it feels like the end state of this is fully agentic, (16:05):
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Josh: fully obfuscating away all of the complexities of the browser. (16:08):
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Josh: You want something, the agent goes out and gets it to you and delivers it to you. (16:11):
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Josh: And this is kind of this middle ground that isn't quite there. (16:14):
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Josh: And it's not fully leaning into agent. If we had to compare the agent episode (16:18):
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Josh: that we had last week to this week, it feels like open AI directionally is actually (16:22):
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Josh: in a much better position because that agent, you can see an end game there (16:26):
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Josh: where it kind of stinks now, but it's the right form factor. (16:29):
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Josh: And it has the ability, it has the openness to do that. Whereas the browser is very constrained. (16:33):
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Josh: I mean, their entire industry is dedicated to unifying user interfaces across (16:37):
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Josh: the internet, just so it's easy for humans to do that. (16:42):
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Josh: And there's so much unnecessary complexity when it comes to this 35 year old (16:44):
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Josh: interface that was built for a world that is totally different than today. (16:49):
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Josh: So the constraints that existed in the 90s that we're still using today, (16:52):
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Josh: they no longer exist. And it feels a little lazy to just keep the same interface (16:55):
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Josh: and throw an AI agent on top of it when you could really redesign this thing from the ground up. (16:59):
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Josh: You can really truly have an agent first world that doesn't require you to interface (17:04):
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Josh: with any sort of browser like this at all. So I think that's the place that I'm (17:09):
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Ejaaz: Excited to go. What would that look like to you, Josh? (17:13):
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Josh: Yeah, it's probably either... (17:15):
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Josh: The earbuds in my ear or the little hardware piece that I have. (17:18):
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Josh: And it knows everything about me. It spends time with me. It understands what (17:22):
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Josh: I like to do. It has my whole preference stack. (17:25):
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Josh: And when I want something or I want to know something, it has all the context (17:27):
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Josh: to solve the problem for me and it can go and do it. (17:30):
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Josh: And then in the case there's any clarifying questions, we can clarify, (17:32):
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Josh: but it's really just a personal assistant that is fully capable of engaging (17:35):
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Josh: with the world the same way a human would be. (17:40):
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Josh: And that to me feels like the final form of this agent. (17:42):
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Ejaaz: So I'm hearing a few things. Number one, you think this is going to be a different (17:46):
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Ejaaz: form factor completely. (17:50):
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Ejaaz: So maybe not looking at a browser or maybe not even looking at a screen at all, (17:52):
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Ejaaz: but maybe it might be some kind of earbuds, as you said, we're kind of like (17:57):
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Ejaaz: opined on what the new hardware device that OpenAI is rumored to be building (18:00):
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Ejaaz: with Johnny Ive is going to be. (18:04):
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Ejaaz: Maybe it's something that sits on your desk and listens and sees everything (18:06):
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Ejaaz: that you can see. But that's one thing, a different form factor. (18:09):
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Ejaaz: Number two, it sounds like you're describing a very multimodal world, (18:12):
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Ejaaz: which I agree with, right? (18:16):
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Ejaaz: So it's not just something that can understand text, but it's something that (18:17):
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Ejaaz: can see, that is very visual. (18:22):
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Ejaaz: It's something that can hear the same things that you hear, and that understands (18:24):
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Ejaaz: the context of conversations that you're having with other people, (18:28):
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Ejaaz: or why you do different things in the world, right? (18:31):
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Ejaaz: So it's kind of expanding from your digital presence to also be aware of your (18:34):
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Ejaaz: physical presence, right? (18:38):
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Ejaaz: And then the third thing that I'm hearing from you, Josh, is we're just kind (18:40):
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Ejaaz: of at that midway point where we kind of have something or we're throwing a (18:43):
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Ejaaz: bunch of AI slop at the wall and hoping something sticks, (18:49):
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Ejaaz: but it's not cohesive right now. (18:52):
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Ejaaz: We just have this like cool AI chatbot and we've slapped it with a bunch of tool access, but (18:55):
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Ejaaz: it none of the none of the cogs work together none of them match so we just (19:01):
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Ejaaz: kind of have this really clunky kind of machine am i kind of like painting the picture accurately. (19:06):
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Josh: Yeah there's two approaches right there's one approach that is the open-ended (19:11):
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Josh: one that open ai is taking and then there's the constrained approach that perplexity (19:15):
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Josh: is taking where we're just going to take this browser experience and make it (19:19):
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Josh: a little bit better and the other side is hey we're just going to throw away (19:21):
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Josh: the entire browser experience because that no longer matters and we're going (19:24):
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Josh: to redesign it from the ground up using this new intelligence. (19:27):
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Josh: And I think that's kind of the fork in the road that I see. And Perplexity has (19:29):
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Josh: taken one, as well as all the other companies that have made an AI browser. (19:34):
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Josh: And then I would imagine Google, who hasn't released a browser, (19:37):
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Josh: is probably considering this. (19:40):
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Josh: OpenAI has done this. And they're kind of taking the way that feels like it (19:42):
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Josh: has an end game, where if you apply a lot more intelligence to a browser, (19:46):
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Josh: I'm not sure how much better it gets. (19:50):
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Josh: But if you apply a ton of intelligence to an open-ended agent, well, (19:52):
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Josh: that's scalable to infinity it can get infinitely more powerful (19:55):
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Josh: it's not constrained to any sort of interface it can build its own it can generate (19:58):
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Josh: its whatever it needs so just in terms of structurally speaking it feels as (20:02):
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Josh: if the agent is is the more probable outcome to win whereas a lot of these companies (20:07):
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Josh: are choosing the easy win quickly which is just oh here's a browser but ai okay (20:12):
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Ejaaz: I i don't know if i completely agree because i think a lot of these browser (20:17):
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Ejaaz: experiences are just going to become agentic. (20:23):
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Ejaaz: And I guess we should define what we're talking about here. (20:26):
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Ejaaz: I guess a browser experience with AI is you log on to your browser and then (20:29):
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Ejaaz: there's a bunch of summary tools or an AI search engine embedded in there. (20:34):
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Ejaaz: But something that's more agentic is something that can not only understand (20:40):
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Ejaaz: what you're asking, but then perform actions for you all autonomously in a loop, (20:46):
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Ejaaz: intuitively, maybe not in a loop, but open-ended. (20:50):
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Ejaaz: It can solve open-ended problems whilst you're sleeping or whatever that might be, right? (20:53):
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Ejaaz: And I think that eventually every browser is heading that way. (20:56):
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Ejaaz: And the reason why I'm convinced of this is something that I opened up the video (21:00):
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Ejaaz: with, which is that it has the most personal data set for you. (21:05):
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Ejaaz: The reason why OpenAI and ChatGPT is so sticky is because it knows so much about (21:07):
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Ejaaz: me, in my opinion, right? (21:12):
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Ejaaz: So I keep going back to it because I'm like, okay, it understands the context (21:14):
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Ejaaz: of what I'm about to ask it. (21:17):
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Ejaaz: If you think about it, browser is the next natural moat for that, (21:18):
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Ejaaz: right? Especially if you're trying to unlock AI that can do things for you. (21:22):
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Ejaaz: Where do you do most of your things? It's probably on the browser or probably (21:27):
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Ejaaz: on your phone, on your browser or via an app or whatever that might be. (21:30):
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Ejaaz: So I'm guessing that's probably where we're headed. (21:33):
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Josh: Okay, well, we will see. I want to dive into some examples so people who are (21:36):
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Josh: listening can actually see how they can use this today and what type of interesting (21:40):
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Josh: things people have been experimenting with. (21:43):
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Josh: I see you have a couple you've pulled up. Can you walk us through examples of (21:45):
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Josh: how people are actually using this tech today? (21:48):
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Ejaaz: Okay, so this is one, I think he's using perplexity on this one. (21:50):
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Ejaaz: This is actually something that I did. It looked very familiar. (21:55):
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Ejaaz: So in this video here, he's basically trying to create some form of a travel (21:58):
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Ejaaz: guide for the city that he's in. He's in Washington. (22:03):
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Ejaaz: And he's like, okay, hey, I want (22:06):
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Ejaaz: to go on a walk and see some of the major monuments and blah, blah, blah. (22:08):
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Ejaaz: Again, like, I feel like you could just Google search this and find like a million (22:12):
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Ejaaz: different forums that could do it. (22:17):
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Ejaaz: But I like that it's embedded into the app itself, so that I don't need to go (22:19):
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Ejaaz: to a forum, find someone's random Google Maps that they're willing to share (22:23):
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Ejaaz: with me, and then come back to this Google Maps app and it opens it up. (22:28):
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Ejaaz: Instead, it's all embedded into the application layer, which I like, (22:32):
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Ejaaz: and it saves me time. Not groundbreaking, but something that's pretty useful, right? (22:36):
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Ejaaz: We have something here, which is something that I've just seen a lot of the (22:41):
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Ejaaz: agent demos do, Josh, which is like, hey, I have a cluttering of random emails. Love. Yeah. (22:43):
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Ejaaz: Please unsubscribe for me, and we can just get on with my life and reduce my (22:52):
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Ejaaz: spam to basically zero, inbox to zero. (22:57):
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Ejaaz: And this is something that he demonstrates here. I tried this out as well, (22:59):
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Ejaaz: and I think you did as well, Josh. (23:02):
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Ejaaz: And it takes a couple of seconds, right? So you basically, two clicks, (23:04):
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Ejaaz: you connect PopXD to your Gmail account or whatever email account you use, (23:08):
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Ejaaz: and then you write a prompt in the search bar being like, hey, (23:12):
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Ejaaz: I just want to get rid of all my spam emails, and it does all of that subsequently. (23:15):
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Ejaaz: This is something that I feel like you and I could use sometime. (23:20):
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Ejaaz: Josh, I didn't actually try this, but creating content ideas for your YouTube channel. (23:24):
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Ejaaz: The difference between opening up a conversation with ChatGPT and saying, (23:29):
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Ejaaz: hey, I'm a video creator, (23:35):
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Ejaaz: can you tell me more about some ideas that I could potentially produce versus (23:36):
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Ejaaz: this is it actually scans your YouTube page itself whilst you're actually on it. (23:41):
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Ejaaz: Again, I don't think this is a novel experience because you could technically (23:46):
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Ejaaz: just copy and paste the link to your YouTube page into ChatGPT, do the same analysis. (23:49):
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Ejaaz: Maybe it takes three extra clicks or prompts, but you kind of get there at the end of the day. (23:56):
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Ejaaz: And then this is an example that I keep seeing pop up, Josh, (24:02):
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Ejaaz: because OpenAI demonstrated it during their live demo for their new agent release, which is, (24:05):
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Ejaaz: hey can you go through my LinkedIn network accept any (24:10):
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Ejaaz: kind of requests that you think would be useful towards furthering my career (24:14):
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Ejaaz: and also maybe reach out to a bunch of people that I might want to connect with (24:18):
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Ejaaz: in the future it's not quite at that capability it's still kind of like whatever (24:22):
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Ejaaz: I'm not really shocked by this but I'm guessing it's useful for some. (24:27):
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Ejaaz: And the final one which is something that Perplexity keeps kind of like talking (24:32):
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Ejaaz: about is the fact that it has awareness of all the tabs that you have open. (24:36):
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Ejaaz: I don't know about you, but I have probably around, I'm kind of like taking (24:42):
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Ejaaz: a scroll here, but like three different tabs open. (24:47):
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Ejaaz: And they're all pertaining to different things, right? And sometimes I lose (24:51):
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Ejaaz: tabs or most of the time I just forget about a bunch of tabs and why I need to use it. (24:54):
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Ejaaz: And they just kind of like remain dormantly open, praying that I reopen them again, right? (24:59):
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Ejaaz: What we have here is he's kind of like looking for different bike products that he wants to buy. (25:04):
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Ejaaz: He has a series of tabs open on different windows and all that kind of stuff. (25:10):
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Ejaaz: And what he does is he just goes to the search, sorry, the chat interface for (25:13):
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Ejaaz: complexity and puts in his request saying like, okay, right, (25:17):
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Ejaaz: now I need to figure out what model of bike that I want to buy. (25:20):
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Ejaaz: What kind of parts do I need for it? I'm going on this particular trip. (25:23):
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Ejaaz: It's going to be, whatever, 150 miles. (25:26):
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Ejaaz: Help me sort this out. And it kind of like leads him in a step-by-step process. (25:30):
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Ejaaz: Again, none of these kind of get me upright in bed. (25:33):
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Ejaaz: Do you know what I mean? I'm not kind of like, yeah, this and being like, (25:38):
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Ejaaz: wow, you know what? This is magical. (25:41):
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Ejaaz: This isn't like an whole iOS moment or, you know, an Apple Watch moment where (25:44):
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Ejaaz: I'm like, oh, wow, it's a new device. (25:48):
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Ejaaz: It's a new thing. So, yeah, I'm just kind of like left... (25:49):
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Ejaaz: Unsurprised i guess. (25:53):
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Josh: So i guess to wrap this up i have one more question for you which is a year (25:54):
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Josh: from now what do you think you are primarily using to interface with the internet (25:59):
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Josh: is it going to be one of these browsers or is it going to be an ai tool like (26:03):
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Josh: chat gpt like rock like gemini what's (26:08):
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Ejaaz: The time frame. (26:10):
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Josh: A year from today what do you think you'll will be more powerful to use i (26:11):
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Ejaaz: Will not be looking at a laptop josh if i'm looking at a laptop by that time (26:16):
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Ejaaz: we have completely and utterly failed. (26:21):
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Ejaaz: So I expect by that time to have some different kind of form factor where it's (26:23):
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Ejaaz: just my eyes and I see everything that I need to that is digital. (26:28):
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Ejaaz: I hear everything that I need to. If I want to watch a YouTube video, (26:33):
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Ejaaz: I kind of like look in a particular direction and it pops it open. (26:36):
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Ejaaz: I hear it. If I want to call my friend, I'm just one to two taps away from doing that. (26:39):
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Ejaaz: Or I just say, can you call Josh, please? I need to talk to him about A, (26:45):
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Ejaaz: B, and C. And it just does that. So it's not a browser. (26:48):
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Josh: Okay. Yeah, I feel the same way. I don't imagine a world in which browsers are (26:51):
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Josh: exciting, but I am very excited to ask the person who's making this about why (26:55):
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Josh: he is investing so much time, (27:00):
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Josh: energy, effort, money into building this browser, because we are having the (27:02):
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Josh: CEO for Plexi coming on in a few weeks. (27:06):
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Josh: We are going to talk to him about exactly this, and we're going to hear the (27:08):
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Josh: rebuttal from the person who is actually responsible for making this happen. (27:11):
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Josh: So I know, Ejaz, I'm certainly excited. I'm sure you are too. (27:14):
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Josh: I cannot wait for that episode. But in the meantime, we'll be dabbling. (27:18):
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Josh: I'll be trying to find more interesting use cases, more fun things to use the browser for. (27:21):
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Josh: If anyone else gets an opportunity to try it, please share in the comments. (27:25):
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Josh: Let us know what you think about the browser. Are we just missing the plot? (27:28):
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Josh: Is there something that we're not seeing because this is some amazing new tech? (27:31):
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Josh: Or is it actually just like, well, it's Chrome with like an AI extension built on top of it. (27:35):
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Josh: So we'd love to hear your thoughts. Thanks as always for listening. (27:39):
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Josh: If you enjoyed the episode, please share. (27:41):
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Josh: If you have any nerdy friends that you want to impress, send them this podcast. (27:43):
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Josh: It's pretty cool. We have a good time here. So as always thank you for watching (27:47):
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Josh: we'll have another episode coming later this week and we will talk to you guys in the next one (27:49):
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Josh: ago pretty much everyone who's listening to this both of us we've (00:06):
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Josh: been using an application exclusively for navigating the web (00:09):
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Josh: and that's the browser right we've all used a web browser before whether (00:12):
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Josh: it be chrome or safari or the millions of (00:15):
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Josh: other options that we've used they've all been pretty much (00:18):
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Josh: the same if you look at a browser from the 1990s versus browser for (00:20):
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Josh: today it's really just a url bar and a (00:23):
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Josh: screen and the screen displays the information and that's that's (00:26):
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Josh: how we've interacted with the internet forever but just recently (00:29):
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Josh: thanks to the invents of ai and all these companies (00:32):
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Josh: who are building really interesting applications on top of it we now (00:35):
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Josh: have a new type of browser an ai browser an agentic browser (00:38):
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Josh: that will do a lot of the browser tasks for you (00:41):
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Josh: and that's going to be the topic of today's episode is ai browsers (00:44):
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Josh: it's like the browser you know and love but it is super smart super enhanced (00:48):
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Josh: and we'll do a lot of the tedious work that you normally do all for you ijaz (00:52):
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Josh: you've been going deep in this world of ai browsers can you can you lay out (00:57):
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Josh: the space how it's working who's involved what it actually means to be an ai browser i (01:00):
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Ejaaz: Was just thinking about um your comment on we've been using browsers for about (01:05):
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Ejaaz: 35 years do you remember the internet explorer days josh where we had to double (01:10):
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Ejaaz: click this golden or blue e-icon and then kind of wait 10 seconds for it to load. (01:16):
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Ejaaz: Then we had to manually type in a web address, www. (01:23):
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Ejaaz: And we've just come incredibly far since then. (01:27):
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Ejaaz: And yeah, to answer your question directly, I think that this is a natural progression (01:31):
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Ejaaz: of where AI needs to be in everyone's lives. (01:37):
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Ejaaz: So to kind of like zoom out for a second, we had this massive explosion when (01:40):
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Ejaaz: GPT-2 or GPT-3 came to life from OpenAI. (01:45):
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Ejaaz: And it was this magical moment where we had this kind of like chat messenger, (01:49):
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Ejaaz: and we could ask the smartest person in the room, that being GPT, (01:53):
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Ejaaz: any question, and it can give us an answer. (01:57):
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Ejaaz: It can teach us things, it can sometimes do things for us, and connect us in (01:59):
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Ejaaz: different ways with information. (02:03):
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Ejaaz: Kind of like how Google did when they created their search engine. (02:05):
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Ejaaz: It became the doorstep to the internet. (02:08):
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Ejaaz: You know, it's the homepage. It's the thing that everyone opens when they want (02:11):
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Ejaaz: to search something, interact and socialize, or even buy something, right? (02:14):
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Ejaaz: So it makes sense that AI is now (02:19):
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Ejaaz: coming to where most of the context and personal data around someone is. (02:21):
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Ejaaz: And I think if I were to zone in on why I'm so excited about this, (02:27):
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Ejaaz: Josh, is it's exactly that. (02:32):
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Ejaaz: I think it's the most publicly accessible. (02:34):
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Ejaaz: Data set for who you are, right, Josh? (02:37):
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Ejaaz: Like if you if I go on your browser right now, maybe you can share your screen (02:41):
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Ejaaz: or whatever that might be. I'm going to see a bunch of different tabs. (02:44):
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Ejaaz: I'm going to see your Spotify playlist that you're bumping tunes to. (02:46):
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Ejaaz: I'm going to see probably your Amazon list that you're kind of like shopping (02:50):
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Ejaaz: or shipping items to your apartment, and maybe a bunch of other things. (02:53):
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Ejaaz: It tells me who Josh is as a person. (02:56):
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Ejaaz: More so it tells me how he's progressed over the history of time over that day (02:59):
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Ejaaz: over that week, over the last 90 days with your browser history. (03:03):
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Ejaaz: So I think embedding AI into the browser experience is that next step up to (03:07):
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Ejaaz: getting a more personal AI face. (03:12):
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Ejaaz: Do you agree with that, Josh? Or what are your thoughts? (03:14):
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Josh: Yeah, I think that sounds right. I am actually a big agent AI browser hater. (03:17):
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Josh: I think we're going to get into that. I agree that it's very cool, (03:22):
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Josh: but I'm not sure the actual use cases apply. (03:25):
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Josh: Before we do go there, I want to lay out the landscape of who's actually making (03:28):
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Josh: these browsers, who is in this space that we're talking about, (03:31):
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Josh: because there's a notable company missing. (03:34):
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Josh: So we have Perplexity, which has the Comet browser. (03:35):
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Josh: We have Microsoft, which has Edge. We have OpenAI, who is probably going to (03:38):
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Josh: launch one. They've signaled the intention to launch one. (03:42):
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Josh: And then we have the Dia browser by the browser company. (03:44):
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Josh: And notably, the one browser we all use, we're all recording this on right now, (03:47):
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Josh: Chrome, is missing, which is interesting because one of the things that, (03:51):
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Josh: I mean, the reason why Google became so large, one of the big reasons was the (03:55):
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Josh: search engine was Google Chrome. (03:58):
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Josh: And noticeably, they're missing. And when you look at all the search history, (04:00):
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Josh: the revenue from search that Google makes, it's been down only. (04:04):
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Josh: And you would imagine from a search company who's built this browser that is (04:07):
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Josh: the number one company in the world, they'd probably be aiming to build an AI (04:11):
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Josh: browser, but that's not the case. And I think that's probably... (04:15):
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Josh: In line with what we're going to talk about later, why we don't like it. (04:19):
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Josh: But I'm curious if you have any ideas why Google is noticeably missing from (04:22):
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Josh: this group of AI browsers. (04:25):
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Ejaaz: You know what's hilarious? As you were making that point, Josh, (04:27):
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Ejaaz: I was trying to come up with a counter example, which was going on Google's search engine. (04:30):
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Ejaaz: And you know, whenever you search something now, you typically see an AI summary. (04:35):
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Ejaaz: I was going to try and argue that maybe that was an example of them embedding (04:39):
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Ejaaz: some form of AI in their browsing experience, even though it's not explicitly (04:43):
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Ejaaz: Chrome itself, but it's not available. (04:49):
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Ejaaz: I literally can't have access to it. So it seems like they've regressed. (04:53):
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Ejaaz: To answer your question more directly, I think they're likely going to release (04:57):
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Ejaaz: it if I had to hazard a guess. (05:02):
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Ejaaz: And the reason why I say that is they've been so committed to kind of being (05:05):
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Ejaaz: on the frontier at the AI model level. (05:10):
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Ejaaz: So Gemini 2.5 Flash is a frontier model that beats OpenAI's ChatGPT and even (05:12):
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Ejaaz: Claude when it comes to coding and stuff. (05:18):
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Ejaaz: Google has been so focused on AI agents as well. (05:20):
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Ejaaz: And they've also been focused on the scientific side of AI as well, (05:25):
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Ejaaz: which is a realm that none of the other frontier AI labs have even touched. (05:28):
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Ejaaz: So it kind of seems weird that even though they control 66.5% of the browser market share, (05:32):
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Ejaaz: it'll seem weird if they don't come out with a product is what i'm saying i (05:40):
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Ejaaz: don't know i i just feel like it's a waiting game it might come out like next (05:44):
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Ejaaz: week or something like that totally. (05:48):
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Josh: Uh-huh we'll see well we both have tried an ai browser we both had access to (05:49):
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Josh: perplexity they gave us access to the comet browser and we had a chance to use (05:53):
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Josh: it for the last week or two and i would love to hear your impressions because (05:56):
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Josh: I used it. I tried it. I have some takes. (05:59):
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Josh: How have you been using it? How have you been liking it? How have you been disliking (06:02):
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Josh: it? Tell me your personal experience. (06:04):
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Ejaaz: I have a lot to say about this. And I'm keen to actually hear what you say. (06:07):
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Ejaaz: So you described yourself as an AI browser hater. (06:11):
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Ejaaz: I wouldn't call myself a hater. (06:14):
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Ejaaz: But I also wouldn't say this is convincing enough to me to ditch Chrome. (06:16):
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Ejaaz: And to use an AI browser. So as you mentioned, we're using this new AI browser from Perplexity. (06:22):
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Ejaaz: Perplexity, for those of you who don't know, is like a supercharged AI search engine. (06:29):
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Ejaaz: And they released this new product called Perplexity Comet, which is their browser. (06:34):
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Ejaaz: And on this browser, it looks very similar to your Chrome browser or Internet (06:39):
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Ejaaz: Explorer browser. You can have many different tabs. You have a search history. (06:43):
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Ejaaz: You have a toolbar with different settings and stuff. But with one unique feature, (06:47):
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Ejaaz: which is rather several unique features, which is AI is embedded everywhere you go. (06:51):
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Ejaaz: That means if you open up a YouTube page, you have a prompt from your little (06:56):
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Ejaaz: assistant in the bottom right hand corner, which will say, hey, (07:01):
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Ejaaz: do you want me to summarize this video for you so that you don't have to spend (07:04):
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Ejaaz: 30 minutes watching this? (07:06):
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Ejaaz: Or you can go into a shopping website and say, hey, I can actually sort for (07:09):
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Ejaaz: you the best deals for what you're looking for, because I read your email because (07:13):
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Ejaaz: you connected me to your Gmail account. And so I kind of know that your mom (07:16):
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Ejaaz: shared a list of items for your sister's birthday. (07:20):
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Ejaaz: And I know that you're on Amazon to check what kind of fleece your sister might want or whatever. (07:23):
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Ejaaz: That's a terrible example. I would never buy my fleeces off of Amazon. (07:28):
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Ejaaz: But you get the general idea. (07:32):
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Ejaaz: My high-level takes are as follows. It's great to have an assistant that can (07:35):
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Ejaaz: summarize long articles and posts for me. And the reason why I say that is I (07:41):
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Ejaaz: spend a lot of time reading and researching, Josh. (07:46):
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Ejaaz: We actually do a bunch of that for this show as well, right? (07:49):
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Ejaaz: And sometimes, actually most of the time, it takes a lot of intense focus and (07:51):
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Ejaaz: many hours of my day, right? (07:58):
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Ejaaz: I would say maybe 70% of my working day is spent reading a ton of stuff and trying new things out. (08:00):
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Ejaaz: This does reduce that now to about 20% to 25%, which is a huge reduction. (08:05):
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Ejaaz: Yeah, I'm spending much less time doing this. And you and I have been using (08:11):
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Ejaaz: this browser for about, what, a week now, like as our default browser. (08:15):
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Ejaaz: So it's been super useful. (08:19):
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Ejaaz: The second thing is, and this is a smaller thing, but I think it's important. (08:21):
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Ejaaz: I can finally stop copying and pasting links and paragraphs of text and putting (08:25):
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Ejaaz: it into whatever AI model provider that I'm using, right? (08:32):
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Ejaaz: So typically the format is I would copy tweet links or article links and put (08:36):
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Ejaaz: it in Crock 4 or put it in ChatGPT and then say like, hey, like reference these (08:42):
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Ejaaz: links, summarize this for me. (08:46):
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Ejaaz: Give me some other types of insights that I might have missed. (08:48):
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Ejaaz: And it's just, it seems so small and minor, but not being able to do that is (08:51):
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Ejaaz: way more convenient for me. (08:56):
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Ejaaz: And I just kind of like, I love kind of leaning into that. (08:57):
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Ejaaz: The third thing that stood out for me, Josh, is search is just such a better (09:01):
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Ejaaz: experience now that I have this AI that's always readily available. (09:07):
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Ejaaz: It's kind of like Google search, but it understands the context behind what (09:12):
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Ejaaz: I'm asking it or why I'm asking it. (09:16):
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Ejaaz: And that's really been an unlock for me. So an example might be I've been researching (09:18):
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Ejaaz: a specific technique of how to train AI models. (09:23):
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Ejaaz: This is something I was doing this week where I was trying to figure out how (09:28):
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Ejaaz: China's open source models were so much better than America's, (09:31):
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Ejaaz: even though they have less resources and all that kind of stuff. (09:35):
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Ejaaz: I was trying to figure this out. (09:37):
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Ejaaz: And I was kind of like writing notes in my Google Doc, which perplexity had access to. (09:39):
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Ejaaz: I was kind of like writing up some thoughts. And then I opened up a separate (09:44):
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Ejaaz: tab to search for a specific term. And it already had it preloaded for me. (09:47):
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Ejaaz: So again, it's like basic little things like this, but I like that it makes (09:52):
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Ejaaz: me feel comfortable and heard. (09:55):
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Ejaaz: But that's my take. Well, what about you, Josh? (09:58):
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Josh: Did you? I've, yeah, I used it. No, I signed up for the, we got an invite code. (10:00):
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Josh: I signed up. It was the most gorgeous onboarding experience. (10:06):
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Josh: I have ever had. It was designed incredibly. (10:08):
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Josh: You type in your code, it unlocks this really fancy screed, it has nice music (10:10):
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Josh: playing in the background, you choose your profiles, it was gorgeous. (10:14):
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Josh: And then I opened it up and it's the same as pretty much every other browser. (10:17):
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Josh: In terms of how I used it, I actually used this example that we have on screen (10:20):
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Josh: right now, which one of the interesting things about the AI browser versus a (10:24):
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Josh: traditional LLM that we would use (10:29):
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Josh: like ChatGPT is it doesn't have all the integrations that a browser has. (10:30):
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Josh: So you can connect this AI browser, or in this case, Comet, to your Gmail and (10:34):
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Josh: and actually have it interact with your email for you on your behalf. (10:39):
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Josh: So this example here and what I tried is I get a decent amount of emails that (10:42):
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Josh: I'm subscribed to from something I bought one time or from a community that (10:47):
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Josh: I used to be part of that I don't really care about. (10:50):
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Josh: And you can just kind of ask it to pull the list of everything you're subscribed (10:52):
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Josh: to, and then choose the ones that you want to unsubscribe to. (10:55):
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Josh: And it will do all of the work of doing that for you. (10:58):
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Josh: So immediately after a few minutes of trying this and a few prompts, (11:00):
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Josh: I was able to clear out my inbox from maybe 20 of these garbage emails a day (11:03):
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Josh: to maybe just like three or four of the ones I actually want to receive. (11:07):
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Josh: And that was really cool to me. So in that case, it's really interesting because (11:10):
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Josh: it has the access to integrations that other LLMs don't necessarily have, (11:13):
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Josh: like ChatGPT, like Grok. (11:17):
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Josh: They exist in the silo, whereas this is kind of embedded across the entire browser (11:18):
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Josh: experience. So in that case, it was good. (11:22):
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Josh: I really enjoyed the browser. (11:24):
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Josh: Outside of that, it felt very much just like a normal browser. (11:27):
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Josh: And it was mostly annoying that I just had to re-log into all my accounts again to do the same thing. (11:31):
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Josh: So I went to YouTube and I uploaded a video for this channel and I went to our (11:36):
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Josh: RSS platform and I upload and I was doing the normal things I do. (11:42):
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Josh: And what I realized is I really don't (11:45):
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Josh: use the browser for all that many interesting things that require AI. (11:47):
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Josh: When I want to use AI, I go to a tool Optimize for AI to kind of abstract away (11:51):
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Josh: the complexities of having to use a browser. (11:57):
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Josh: So when I want to learn about something, primarily I use Grok for (11:59):
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Josh: that because grok has the live real-time information (12:01):
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Josh: from x which is normally where i consume most of my information anyway (12:04):
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Josh: and i just have it pull all the aggregated data that i (12:07):
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Josh: want for me versus actually going and trying to find it and as i'm going through (12:10):
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Josh: these use cases of how i use a browser there's less and less that are actually (12:14):
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Josh: interesting i think when people use browsers since the beginning of time they've (12:17):
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Josh: used them for two things right it's like for productivity and for leisure and (12:21):
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Josh: when you're doing work you just kind of interact with these specific apps in the browser. (12:24):
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Josh: So you're using an Excel spreadsheet or you're doing whatever, like uploading a video. (12:29):
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Josh: And then in leisure, you're kind of shopping for something. You're looking through (12:34):
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Josh: clothes. You're watching a YouTube video. You're consuming media. (12:38):
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Josh: And on the leisure end, there's no way that AI can supplement that. (12:41):
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Josh: And then on the productivity end, well, you kind of want AI to exclusively supplement that. (12:46):
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Josh: And you don't want to have to deal with all these annoying interfaces or scraping (12:50):
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Josh: data or getting that information. (12:53):
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Josh: So it puts this browser in kind of a weird spot where I was using it for a few days. (12:55):
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Josh: I was excited about using it for a few days. And then I just kind of didn't (12:58):
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Josh: really have a need to use it anymore. (13:02):
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Josh: I do a lot of the thinking and the analyzing in Grok. I do a lot of the productivity work in ChatGPT. (13:04):
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Josh: And then I just watch YouTube videos on YouTube using the Chrome browser that's (13:10):
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Josh: worked for the last 30 years. (13:13):
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Josh: So that's kind of where it's been weird with the AI agents is it seems cool, (13:15):
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Josh: but I'm not sure there's any sustainable use cases that are very exciting. (13:18):
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Ejaaz: Do you, do you agree, disagree? (13:23):
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Ejaaz: Yeah. I mean, last week we spoke about OpenAI's new agent, right? (13:26):
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Ejaaz: And one of the main takeaways from that episode was, this agent's pretty cool, (13:32):
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Ejaaz: but it's not really adding much value to my life right now. (13:37):
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Ejaaz: Sure, I can jump into my Gmail account and read a bunch of my docs, but okay, and then what? (13:41):
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Ejaaz: Sure, I can research a bunch of clothes that I might want to buy, but then what? (13:51):
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Ejaaz: It doesn't buy anything for me. And I feel like this is the same type of case here, right? (13:55):
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Ejaaz: Where you've added a solution to a place where maybe you don't actually quite need it, right? (13:59):
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Ejaaz: But I want to spend a bit of time arguing what this could be versus what it is right now. (14:06):
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Ejaaz: Because I agree largely with you that it is not as useful as I'd want it to be. (14:11):
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Ejaaz: And I really think you make a good point around the leisure side of things. (14:17):
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Ejaaz: But I want to kind of like think about what this might end up becoming if we (14:20):
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Ejaaz: imagine that everyone's going to have some form of AI agent or companion in the future, right? (14:24):
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Ejaaz: So number one, I think the personal (14:29):
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Ejaaz: AI assistant is going to be a hugely valuable market going forwards. (14:32):
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Ejaaz: I don't quite know how it's going to manifest. (14:37):
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Ejaaz: My idea is it's probably going to be on the work side of things. (14:40):
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Ejaaz: So there's going to be an enterprise-heavy presence of AI agents. (14:45):
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Ejaaz: And we're already seeing that already, where they kind of like plug into your (14:50):
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Ejaaz: workspace, your Slack, and they allow you to do a bunch of things. (14:54):
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Ejaaz: Right now, they kind of suck. (14:56):
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Ejaaz: But eventually, I'm guessing it's going to get better, and it's going to get more intuitive. (14:58):
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Ejaaz: The second thing is, there's this trend, Josh, where I think we're stepping (15:02):
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Ejaaz: away from a lot of the actions that we've grown so used to over the last decade, which is scrolling, (15:08):
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Ejaaz: searching for different apps, downloading apps, (15:16):
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Ejaaz: tapping the screen, and typing letters. (15:21):
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Ejaaz: I think this progression is going to become something more automable where we're (15:24):
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Ejaaz: going to be speaking into a microphone and we just kind of like look at things (15:29):
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Ejaaz: or AI guesses what we already want before we even get there, right? (15:34):
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Ejaaz: There's going to be this like autonomous kind of flow of things. (15:39):
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Ejaaz: I don't think we're there. I think this is a stepping stone. (15:42):
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Ejaaz: I do not think browsers right now are like a 10x improvement over what we had before. (15:44):
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Ejaaz: So I'm with you. Like, I'm just going to use Google Chrome for now. (15:50):
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Ejaaz: But it's a good shot on goal. (15:53):
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Josh: To me, if I'm talking to Perplexity's CEO, which we are talking to in a few (15:55):
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Josh: weeks, I think the idea is why on earth are you spending so much resources in (15:59):
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Josh: this intermediary step? (16:04):
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Josh: Because it feels like the end state of this is fully agentic, (16:05):
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Josh: fully obfuscating away all of the complexities of the browser. (16:08):
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Josh: You want something, the agent goes out and gets it to you and delivers it to you. (16:11):
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Josh: And this is kind of this middle ground that isn't quite there. (16:14):
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Josh: And it's not fully leaning into agent. If we had to compare the agent episode (16:18):
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Josh: that we had last week to this week, it feels like open AI directionally is actually (16:22):
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Josh: in a much better position because that agent, you can see an end game there (16:26):
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Josh: where it kind of stinks now, but it's the right form factor. (16:29):
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Josh: And it has the ability, it has the openness to do that. Whereas the browser is very constrained. (16:33):
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Josh: I mean, their entire industry is dedicated to unifying user interfaces across (16:37):
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Josh: the internet, just so it's easy for humans to do that. (16:42):
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Josh: And there's so much unnecessary complexity when it comes to this 35 year old (16:44):
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Josh: interface that was built for a world that is totally different than today. (16:49):
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Josh: So the constraints that existed in the 90s that we're still using today, (16:52):
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Josh: they no longer exist. And it feels a little lazy to just keep the same interface (16:55):
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Josh: and throw an AI agent on top of it when you could really redesign this thing from the ground up. (16:59):
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Josh: You can really truly have an agent first world that doesn't require you to interface (17:04):
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Josh: with any sort of browser like this at all. So I think that's the place that I'm (17:09):
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Ejaaz: Excited to go. What would that look like to you, Josh? (17:13):
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Josh: Yeah, it's probably either... (17:15):
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Josh: The earbuds in my ear or the little hardware piece that I have. (17:18):
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Josh: And it knows everything about me. It spends time with me. It understands what (17:22):
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Josh: I like to do. It has my whole preference stack. (17:25):
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Josh: And when I want something or I want to know something, it has all the context (17:27):
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Josh: to solve the problem for me and it can go and do it. (17:30):
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Josh: And then in the case there's any clarifying questions, we can clarify, (17:32):
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Josh: but it's really just a personal assistant that is fully capable of engaging (17:35):
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Josh: with the world the same way a human would be. (17:40):
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Josh: And that to me feels like the final form of this agent. (17:42):
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Ejaaz: So I'm hearing a few things. Number one, you think this is going to be a different (17:46):
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Ejaaz: form factor completely. (17:50):
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Ejaaz: So maybe not looking at a browser or maybe not even looking at a screen at all, (17:52):
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Ejaaz: but maybe it might be some kind of earbuds, as you said, we're kind of like (17:57):
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Ejaaz: opined on what the new hardware device that OpenAI is rumored to be building (18:00):
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Ejaaz: with Johnny Ive is going to be. (18:04):
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Ejaaz: Maybe it's something that sits on your desk and listens and sees everything (18:06):
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Ejaaz: that you can see. But that's one thing, a different form factor. (18:09):
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Ejaaz: Number two, it sounds like you're describing a very multimodal world, (18:12):
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Ejaaz: which I agree with, right? (18:16):
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Ejaaz: So it's not just something that can understand text, but it's something that (18:17):
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Ejaaz: can see, that is very visual. (18:22):
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Ejaaz: It's something that can hear the same things that you hear, and that understands (18:24):
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Ejaaz: the context of conversations that you're having with other people, (18:28):
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Ejaaz: or why you do different things in the world, right? (18:31):
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Ejaaz: So it's kind of expanding from your digital presence to also be aware of your (18:34):
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Ejaaz: physical presence, right? (18:38):
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Ejaaz: And then the third thing that I'm hearing from you, Josh, is we're just kind (18:40):
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Ejaaz: of at that midway point where we kind of have something or we're throwing a (18:43):
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Ejaaz: bunch of AI slop at the wall and hoping something sticks, (18:49):
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Ejaaz: but it's not cohesive right now. (18:52):
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Ejaaz: We just have this like cool AI chatbot and we've slapped it with a bunch of tool access, but (18:55):
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Ejaaz: it none of the none of the cogs work together none of them match so we just (19:01):
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Ejaaz: kind of have this really clunky kind of machine am i kind of like painting the picture accurately. (19:06):
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Josh: Yeah there's two approaches right there's one approach that is the open-ended (19:11):
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Josh: one that open ai is taking and then there's the constrained approach that perplexity (19:15):
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Josh: is taking where we're just going to take this browser experience and make it (19:19):
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Josh: a little bit better and the other side is hey we're just going to throw away (19:21):
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Josh: the entire browser experience because that no longer matters and we're going (19:24):
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Josh: to redesign it from the ground up using this new intelligence. (19:27):
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Josh: And I think that's kind of the fork in the road that I see. And Perplexity has (19:29):
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Josh: taken one, as well as all the other companies that have made an AI browser. (19:34):
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Josh: And then I would imagine Google, who hasn't released a browser, (19:37):
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Josh: is probably considering this. (19:40):
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Josh: OpenAI has done this. And they're kind of taking the way that feels like it (19:42):
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Josh: has an end game, where if you apply a lot more intelligence to a browser, (19:46):
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Josh: I'm not sure how much better it gets. (19:50):
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Josh: But if you apply a ton of intelligence to an open-ended agent, well, (19:52):
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Josh: that's scalable to infinity it can get infinitely more powerful (19:55):
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Josh: it's not constrained to any sort of interface it can build its own it can generate (19:58):
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Josh: its whatever it needs so just in terms of structurally speaking it feels as (20:02):
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Josh: if the agent is is the more probable outcome to win whereas a lot of these companies (20:07):
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Josh: are choosing the easy win quickly which is just oh here's a browser but ai okay (20:12):
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Ejaaz: I i don't know if i completely agree because i think a lot of these browser (20:17):
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Ejaaz: experiences are just going to become agentic. (20:23):
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Ejaaz: And I guess we should define what we're talking about here. (20:26):
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Ejaaz: I guess a browser experience with AI is you log on to your browser and then (20:29):
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Ejaaz: there's a bunch of summary tools or an AI search engine embedded in there. (20:34):
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Ejaaz: But something that's more agentic is something that can not only understand (20:40):
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Ejaaz: what you're asking, but then perform actions for you all autonomously in a loop, (20:46):
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Ejaaz: intuitively, maybe not in a loop, but open-ended. (20:50):
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Ejaaz: It can solve open-ended problems whilst you're sleeping or whatever that might be, right? (20:53):
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Ejaaz: And I think that eventually every browser is heading that way. (20:56):
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Ejaaz: And the reason why I'm convinced of this is something that I opened up the video (21:00):
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Ejaaz: with, which is that it has the most personal data set for you. (21:05):
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Ejaaz: The reason why OpenAI and ChatGPT is so sticky is because it knows so much about (21:07):
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Ejaaz: me, in my opinion, right? (21:12):
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Ejaaz: So I keep going back to it because I'm like, okay, it understands the context (21:14):
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Ejaaz: of what I'm about to ask it. (21:17):
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Ejaaz: If you think about it, browser is the next natural moat for that, (21:18):
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Ejaaz: right? Especially if you're trying to unlock AI that can do things for you. (21:22):
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Ejaaz: Where do you do most of your things? It's probably on the browser or probably (21:27):
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Ejaaz: on your phone, on your browser or via an app or whatever that might be. (21:30):
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Ejaaz: So I'm guessing that's probably where we're headed. (21:33):
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Josh: Okay, well, we will see. I want to dive into some examples so people who are (21:36):
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Josh: listening can actually see how they can use this today and what type of interesting (21:40):
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Josh: things people have been experimenting with. (21:43):
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Josh: I see you have a couple you've pulled up. Can you walk us through examples of (21:45):
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Josh: how people are actually using this tech today? (21:48):
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Ejaaz: Okay, so this is one, I think he's using perplexity on this one. (21:50):
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Ejaaz: This is actually something that I did. It looked very familiar. (21:55):
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Ejaaz: So in this video here, he's basically trying to create some form of a travel (21:58):
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Ejaaz: guide for the city that he's in. He's in Washington. (22:03):
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Ejaaz: And he's like, okay, hey, I want (22:06):
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Ejaaz: to go on a walk and see some of the major monuments and blah, blah, blah. (22:08):
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Ejaaz: Again, like, I feel like you could just Google search this and find like a million (22:12):
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Ejaaz: different forums that could do it. (22:17):
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Ejaaz: But I like that it's embedded into the app itself, so that I don't need to go (22:19):
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Ejaaz: to a forum, find someone's random Google Maps that they're willing to share (22:23):
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Ejaaz: with me, and then come back to this Google Maps app and it opens it up. (22:28):
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Ejaaz: Instead, it's all embedded into the application layer, which I like, (22:32):
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Ejaaz: and it saves me time. Not groundbreaking, but something that's pretty useful, right? (22:36):
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Ejaaz: We have something here, which is something that I've just seen a lot of the (22:41):
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Ejaaz: agent demos do, Josh, which is like, hey, I have a cluttering of random emails. Love. Yeah. (22:43):
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Ejaaz: Please unsubscribe for me, and we can just get on with my life and reduce my (22:52):
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Ejaaz: spam to basically zero, inbox to zero. (22:57):
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Ejaaz: And this is something that he demonstrates here. I tried this out as well, (22:59):
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Ejaaz: and I think you did as well, Josh. (23:02):
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Ejaaz: And it takes a couple of seconds, right? So you basically, two clicks, (23:04):
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Ejaaz: you connect PopXD to your Gmail account or whatever email account you use, (23:08):
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Ejaaz: and then you write a prompt in the search bar being like, hey, (23:12):
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Ejaaz: I just want to get rid of all my spam emails, and it does all of that subsequently. (23:15):
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Ejaaz: This is something that I feel like you and I could use sometime. (23:20):
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Ejaaz: Josh, I didn't actually try this, but creating content ideas for your YouTube channel. (23:24):
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Ejaaz: The difference between opening up a conversation with ChatGPT and saying, (23:29):
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Ejaaz: hey, I'm a video creator, (23:35):
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Ejaaz: can you tell me more about some ideas that I could potentially produce versus (23:36):
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Ejaaz: this is it actually scans your YouTube page itself whilst you're actually on it. (23:41):
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Ejaaz: Again, I don't think this is a novel experience because you could technically (23:46):
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Ejaaz: just copy and paste the link to your YouTube page into ChatGPT, do the same analysis. (23:49):
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Ejaaz: Maybe it takes three extra clicks or prompts, but you kind of get there at the end of the day. (23:56):
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Ejaaz: And then this is an example that I keep seeing pop up, Josh, (24:02):
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Ejaaz: because OpenAI demonstrated it during their live demo for their new agent release, which is, (24:05):
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Ejaaz: hey can you go through my LinkedIn network accept any (24:10):
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Ejaaz: kind of requests that you think would be useful towards furthering my career (24:14):
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Ejaaz: and also maybe reach out to a bunch of people that I might want to connect with (24:18):
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Ejaaz: in the future it's not quite at that capability it's still kind of like whatever (24:22):
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Ejaaz: I'm not really shocked by this but I'm guessing it's useful for some. (24:27):
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Ejaaz: And the final one which is something that Perplexity keeps kind of like talking (24:32):
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Ejaaz: about is the fact that it has awareness of all the tabs that you have open. (24:36):
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Ejaaz: I don't know about you, but I have probably around, I'm kind of like taking (24:42):
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Ejaaz: a scroll here, but like three different tabs open. (24:47):
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Ejaaz: And they're all pertaining to different things, right? And sometimes I lose (24:51):
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Ejaaz: tabs or most of the time I just forget about a bunch of tabs and why I need to use it. (24:54):
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Ejaaz: And they just kind of like remain dormantly open, praying that I reopen them again, right? (24:59):
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Ejaaz: What we have here is he's kind of like looking for different bike products that he wants to buy. (25:04):
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Ejaaz: He has a series of tabs open on different windows and all that kind of stuff. (25:10):
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Ejaaz: And what he does is he just goes to the search, sorry, the chat interface for (25:13):
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Ejaaz: complexity and puts in his request saying like, okay, right, (25:17):
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Ejaaz: now I need to figure out what model of bike that I want to buy. (25:20):
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Ejaaz: What kind of parts do I need for it? I'm going on this particular trip. (25:23):
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Ejaaz: It's going to be, whatever, 150 miles. (25:26):
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Ejaaz: Help me sort this out. And it kind of like leads him in a step-by-step process. (25:30):
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Ejaaz: Again, none of these kind of get me upright in bed. (25:33):
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Ejaaz: Do you know what I mean? I'm not kind of like, yeah, this and being like, (25:38):
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Ejaaz: wow, you know what? This is magical. (25:41):
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Ejaaz: This isn't like an whole iOS moment or, you know, an Apple Watch moment where (25:44):
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Ejaaz: I'm like, oh, wow, it's a new device. (25:48):
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Ejaaz: It's a new thing. So, yeah, I'm just kind of like left... (25:49):
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Ejaaz: Unsurprised i guess. (25:53):
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Josh: So i guess to wrap this up i have one more question for you which is a year (25:54):
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Josh: from now what do you think you are primarily using to interface with the internet (25:59):
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Josh: is it going to be one of these browsers or is it going to be an ai tool like (26:03):
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Josh: chat gpt like rock like gemini what's (26:08):
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Ejaaz: The time frame. (26:10):
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Josh: A year from today what do you think you'll will be more powerful to use i (26:11):
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Ejaaz: Will not be looking at a laptop josh if i'm looking at a laptop by that time (26:16):
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Ejaaz: we have completely and utterly failed. (26:21):
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Ejaaz: So I expect by that time to have some different kind of form factor where it's (26:23):
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Ejaaz: just my eyes and I see everything that I need to that is digital. (26:28):
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Ejaaz: I hear everything that I need to. If I want to watch a YouTube video, (26:33):
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Ejaaz: I kind of like look in a particular direction and it pops it open. (26:36):
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Ejaaz: I hear it. If I want to call my friend, I'm just one to two taps away from doing that. (26:39):
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Ejaaz: Or I just say, can you call Josh, please? I need to talk to him about A, (26:45):
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Ejaaz: B, and C. And it just does that. So it's not a browser. (26:48):
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Josh: Okay. Yeah, I feel the same way. I don't imagine a world in which browsers are (26:51):
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Josh: exciting, but I am very excited to ask the person who's making this about why (26:55):
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Josh: he is investing so much time, (27:00):
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Josh: energy, effort, money into building this browser, because we are having the (27:02):
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Josh: CEO for Plexi coming on in a few weeks. (27:06):
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Josh: We are going to talk to him about exactly this, and we're going to hear the (27:08):
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Josh: rebuttal from the person who is actually responsible for making this happen. (27:11):
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Josh: So I know, Ejaz, I'm certainly excited. I'm sure you are too. (27:14):
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Josh: I cannot wait for that episode. But in the meantime, we'll be dabbling. (27:18):
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Josh: I'll be trying to find more interesting use cases, more fun things to use the browser for. (27:21):
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Josh: If anyone else gets an opportunity to try it, please share in the comments. (27:25):
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Josh: Let us know what you think about the browser. Are we just missing the plot? (27:28):
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Josh: Is there something that we're not seeing because this is some amazing new tech? (27:31):
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Josh: Or is it actually just like, well, it's Chrome with like an AI extension built on top of it. (27:35):
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Josh: So we'd love to hear your thoughts. Thanks as always for listening. (27:39):
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Josh: If you enjoyed the episode, please share. (27:41):
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Josh: If you have any nerdy friends that you want to impress, send them this podcast. (27:43):
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Josh: It's pretty cool. We have a good time here. So as always thank you for watching (27:47):
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Josh: we'll have another episode coming later this week and we will talk to you guys in the next one (27:49):
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