August 20, 2025 • 33 mins
In this episode, we speak with Aaron Tan, founder of Syncere. His latest creation is Lume, an innovative home robot designed as bedside lamps that fold laundry. Aaron discusses its sleek design, pricing options, and future capabilities beyond laundry, while addressing safety and societal readiness for home robotics. Tune in to explore the exciting potential of Lume, the Syncere Journey, and the future of home technology.
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TIMESTAMPS
0:00 Introduction to Lume
1:49 Functionality of the Robotic Lamp
4:09 Pricing Models
7:02 Design Philosophy
11:54 Future Developments and Applications
17:22 Human-Robot Interaction and Trust
22:12 The Role of Robots in Homes
25:02 Expanding Capabilities
27:46 Manufacturing and Design Confidence
31:46 Closing Thoughts
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RESOURCES
Aaron Tan: https://x.com/aaronistan
Syncere AI: https://x.com/syncereAI
Josh: https://x.com/Josh_Kale
Ejaaz: https://x.com/cryptopunk7213
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Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here:
https://www.bankless.com/disclosures
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ejaaz:
The most interesting robot of 2025 doesn't (00:03):
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Ejaaz: look like a robot in fact they look like two bedside table lamps that morph (00:07):
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Ejaaz: into robotic arms and fold the laundry that's on your bed no six foot five humanoid (00:13):
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Ejaaz: robot just clean decisive robotic arms that do what you want it to do and remove (00:19):
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Ejaaz: the most hated chore ever. (00:25):
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Ejaaz: But don't take my word for it. We have the founder, Aaron Tan, (00:27):
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Ejaaz: of Sincere on our show today that's going to walk us through it. (00:31):
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Ejaaz: Aaron, welcome to the show. (00:35):
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Ejaaz: I want to start off pretty hot and straight to the point. (00:37):
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Ejaaz: What is Loom and why did you build it? (00:40):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, yeah. I mean, thanks for the intro and thanks for having me on. (00:44):
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Aaron Tan: Loom, I think, in its simplest form is it's a robotic lamp. (00:49):
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Aaron Tan: It's designed to not look like a robot at all. We want to sort of get rid of (00:54):
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Aaron Tan: chores for people in a way without making them feel like we're adding robots into their home. (00:58):
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Aaron Tan: And a lamp, based on its silhouette and its form factor, is sort of like the (01:03):
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Aaron Tan: perfect shape to hire robotics in plain sight. (01:08):
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Aaron Tan: So that's what we're building at Sincere. (01:12):
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Josh: Aaron, I loved the video. There's some things that when I'm scrolling my timeline, (01:15):
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Josh: I see and they just kind of break my mind. (01:18):
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Josh: They break the perception of what it means to be a robot. (01:20):
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Josh: This was one of them because so frequently I see these things that look like (01:23):
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Josh: humanoid robots or you see like these kind of robotic cars or vehicles. (01:27):
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Josh: This was very obscure. This was, it was lampposts that kind of turn into arms that fold your laundry. (01:31):
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Josh: And it just felt very natural when I saw it. It felt right. (01:37):
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Josh: There's some things you see and it just feels right. So how does this work? (01:39):
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Josh: Like, is this possible that it can actually just sit as a lamppost and And then (01:43):
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Josh: it can kind of reach over your bed and do the laundry while you're gone. (01:47):
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Josh: Can you just explain to me how this product functions? It's just going to sit (01:50):
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Josh: there and do my laundry? Is that really that simple? (01:53):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, yeah. I mean, no, I'm glad that you like it. (01:55):
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Aaron Tan: And, you know, what it is, it's we... (02:00):
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Aaron Tan: They're meant so that you could place them sort of anywhere in the home. (02:04):
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Aaron Tan: It just so happens that when we spoke to a lot of people, it's that the bedroom (02:07):
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Aaron Tan: happens to be a place where a lot of people do their laundry. (02:11):
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Aaron Tan: People just dump it on the bed because it's such a large surface. (02:13):
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Aaron Tan: The closet is usually nearby, so they fold the laundry in front of the bed and they put it away. (02:16):
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Aaron Tan: What the workflow we sort of imagine is that, you know, you do the same things, (02:22):
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Aaron Tan: except now you just get to dump your laundry on the bed. (02:26):
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Aaron Tan: You walk away, you go watch a movie or, you know, have a meal. (02:29):
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Aaron Tan: And then when you come back, it's supposed to feel like the laundry sort of (02:31):
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Aaron Tan: magically folded and sorted themselves. (02:35):
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Aaron Tan: And you only have to handle the part where you put it away yourself right at the end there. (02:37):
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Aaron Tan: And yeah, we're starting with laundry folding. But you can probably imagine (02:43):
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Aaron Tan: what a pair of robotic arms or single, you could buy them either by itself or as a pair. (02:47):
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Aaron Tan: You can imagine all the kind of like things that it can do depending on where (02:53):
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Aaron Tan: you place them in the home. (02:57):
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Ejaaz: Okay so for the listeners of our show that can't (02:59):
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Ejaaz: see this awesome video that's going on loop right now they're kind (03:02):
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Ejaaz: of wondering how on earth this works aaron so right now they're imagining like (03:05):
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Ejaaz: two bedside table lamps but can you walk us through how it works like are there (03:10):
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Ejaaz: like specific claws that like pinch how do they see things how do they know (03:14):
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Ejaaz: when you're out of the room and when you're not sleeping and they're going to (03:18):
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Ejaaz: like poke your eyes out how does this work Yeah, (03:21):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah. So you can sort of just imagine a floor lamp. So it's, (03:24):
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Aaron Tan: you know, tall, skinny, single pole. (03:27):
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Aaron Tan: There are sort of lamp hoods at the top of the lamp that conceals everything (03:30):
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Aaron Tan: that is robotic about this lamp. (03:35):
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Aaron Tan: So obviously there's going to be lights inside the lamp hood so that it can (03:36):
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Aaron Tan: serve the basic purpose of a lamp. (03:39):
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Aaron Tan: But with those lights, there's also robot grippers in there as well as a camera. (03:42):
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Aaron Tan: A lot of people sort of like wonder about privacy about these things. (03:47):
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Aaron Tan: But the great thing here is that the lamp hoods sort of conceal everything until (03:50):
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Aaron Tan: you've given it permission to fold your laundry or do whatever the task may be. (03:56):
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Aaron Tan: Then it sort of like almost folds back, reveals the camera, reveals the gripper, (04:01):
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Aaron Tan: detects the clothing, and then goes ahead and folds. (04:06):
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Aaron Tan: Obviously, it'll make sure that no one is laying in bed or on the couch or by (04:10):
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Aaron Tan: the table because there's a variety of places where laundry clothing can happen. yeah (04:14):
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Ejaaz: Okay, and how much does this thing cost? Like, I can imagine that for a troll (04:21):
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Ejaaz: that I hate so much, I'm willing to pay like a couple grand for it. (04:27):
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Ejaaz: But yeah, can you tell us how that works? (04:30):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, yeah. So we, I mean, right now we have some ideas like pricing is obviously (04:33):
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Aaron Tan: a tricky one, but we want to get it to people for as cheap as possible. (04:39):
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Aaron Tan: We're experimenting with two models. There's sort of two camps just from the (04:44):
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Aaron Tan: people that signed up on the wait list. I'm in direct communication with them all the time. (04:47):
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Aaron Tan: And it's either going to be like a one-time fixed fee sub $2,000 or maybe just (04:52):
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Aaron Tan: a few hundred dollars where you buy the lamp for the lamp itself and then pay (04:58):
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Aaron Tan: like a subscription for the folding. (05:01):
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Aaron Tan: So it's like paying a cleaner, (05:04):
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Ejaaz: Basically, like to come in every reason. (05:06):
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Aaron Tan: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So we're still sort of experimenting to see what (05:08):
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Aaron Tan: resonates the most with people. (05:12):
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Aaron Tan: I'm happy to hear actually your guys' thoughts on what you think would be the proper pricing model. (05:13):
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Ejaaz: Honestly just to like off the top of my head i (05:22):
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Ejaaz: would be willing to pay it like on (05:25):
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Ejaaz: a subscription level like how i would pay i pay a (05:28):
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Ejaaz: cleaner to come in now every kind of like couple of weeks and covers everything (05:30):
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Ejaaz: including the laundry and the folding as well which is a massive win and i was (05:35):
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Ejaaz: wondering that if i could have something that is aesthetically pleasing to my (05:41):
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Ejaaz: taste um and can do all the job and work for me for the cost of, (05:45):
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Ejaaz: I don't know, electricity or a Netflix subscription. (05:49):
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Ejaaz: I'm all game for that. Josh, do you have a conflicting opinion here? (05:52):
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Josh: Yeah, as you're describing this, actually, I'm thinking about my memberships (05:55):
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Josh: that I have between my Whoop and my Oura Ring and kind of the differences between the two. (05:58):
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Josh: With the Oura Ring, you purchase an expensive ring for about $400 and $6 a month (06:01):
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Josh: versus the Whoop that you get for free, but you're paying $30 a month. (06:05):
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Josh: And I kind of actually like paying a little bit more upfront with the expectation (06:08):
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Josh: that the smaller monthly payment will be in exchange for updates and continuing (06:12):
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Josh: to maintain the software stack. (06:16):
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Josh: So if you were to price it maybe closer to $2,000 and instead of maybe $100 (06:18):
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Josh: monthly fee, a $20 monthly fee, that to me feels a little more exciting because (06:22):
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Josh: it's manageable. I don't really have to budget too much for the subscription. (06:26):
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Josh: And I have paid up front with the promise that hopefully future software updates (06:29):
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Josh: will deliver added functionality. (06:33):
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Josh: So to me, at least that seems like the fun way to price this thing. (06:35):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, I sort of agree with you guys. (06:38):
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Aaron Tan: That's sort of what I'm personally leaning on. But the thing I'm trying to be (06:42):
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Aaron Tan: cautious of is, because I know that a lot of folks have also reached out and (06:45):
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Aaron Tan: told me and they're kind of, you know, just sick of being tied to a bunch of subscriptions. (06:49):
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Aaron Tan: I get where they're coming from, because you don't want to feel like you're (06:52):
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Aaron Tan: being nickel and dime for every time you want a chore done. (06:55):
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Aaron Tan: That's not the typical relationship people have with their appliances, (06:58):
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Aaron Tan: like a laundry machine or a dishwasher. (07:01):
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Aaron Tan: Sure um so yeah i totally see where you guys come from uh but we we probably (07:03):
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Aaron Tan: have to sort of test it to see what the market says uh but yeah i (07:09):
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Josh: Want to talk about design for a little bit because i mean obviously the first (07:14):
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Josh: thing that stuck out was the design this is gorgeous and this was not by accident (07:17):
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Josh: this was a very intentional design it looks very friendly it doesn't look robotic (07:20):
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Josh: or mean or or anything like. (07:25):
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Aaron Tan: That can you walk (07:27):
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Josh: Me through the design process how you wound up with this because i mean at first (07:27):
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Josh: glance we're watching the video now it looks like they're just two fixed lampposts (07:30):
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Josh: to a bed there's no sign of it being a robot so can you walk us through just (07:33):
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Josh: like the thought process behind designing these types of robots for the home. (07:37):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah yeah i mean so i think (07:39):
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Aaron Tan: you know i when we set out to build this product we (07:42):
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Aaron Tan: didn't knew that this was going to be the thing that we built and (07:46):
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Aaron Tan: in fact the first thing that we tried to build as a company uh is (07:48):
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Aaron Tan: me and my co-founder and we have a small team of about six people here right (07:51):
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Aaron Tan: now um we actually were building a (07:54):
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Aaron Tan: humanoid first because we were (07:57):
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Aaron Tan: uh we were you know we didn't we had just finished our phds and (08:00):
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Aaron Tan: we were you know just we didn't think too much about the idea we (08:03):
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Aaron Tan: just didn't want to do chores as as most engineers i (08:06):
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Aaron Tan: guess are pretty lazy um so we we went (08:09):
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Aaron Tan: in and we built a humanoid robot two arms and (08:12):
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Aaron Tan: two wheels you know got it into homes got it into hotels (08:15):
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Aaron Tan: you know got it in front of real people and it was (08:18):
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Aaron Tan: only through doing that that we realized that the majority (08:21):
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Aaron Tan: of people outside of like the tech bubble or like (08:25):
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Aaron Tan: the you know the technical inclined population which is the majority (08:28):
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Aaron Tan: of people um they they don't (08:31):
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Aaron Tan: actually want something that's like pseudo-human like (08:34):
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Aaron Tan: it's almost like a like a sentient being almost like a (08:37):
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Aaron Tan: robotic roommate that you have to share your home with um and (08:40):
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Aaron Tan: you know one thing led to another you know (08:44):
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Aaron Tan: people told us it was intrusive it was a bit intimidating um there's (08:46):
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Aaron Tan: no way to guarantee it sort of like falling on the child or (08:50):
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Aaron Tan: just hitting things and and there's there's also (08:53):
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Aaron Tan: mixing with this whole like it's probably going to be (08:56):
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Aaron Tan: majority uh tele-operated so you know (08:59):
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Aaron Tan: you're giving cameras and arms to people that are potentially (09:01):
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Aaron Tan: overseas or somewhere else um you know when all that mixed in we just essentially (09:04):
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Aaron Tan: Got a lot of pushback from people adopting the human or form factor into the (09:09):
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Aaron Tan: home um so we we we as a team we sort of took a step back and we sort of thought (09:13):
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Aaron Tan: to ourselves you know it certainly feels like there's all these chores that people hate doing. (09:20):
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Aaron Tan: And it certainly feels like robotics is the way to get rid of these chores. (09:24):
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Aaron Tan: But the way that people have been approaching the problem feels kind of the wrong way. (09:27):
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Aaron Tan: It kind of feels like everybody is trying to (09:33):
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Aaron Tan: Take things that made sense in an industrial setting like a (09:36):
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Aaron Tan: factory where humanoids could make sense in a factory in my (09:39):
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Aaron Tan: opinion but that's only because like you could train your (09:42):
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Aaron Tan: staff to be cautious around the robot you can draw yellow tape (09:45):
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Aaron Tan: on the line you could sort of you know all (09:48):
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Aaron Tan: these like even teleoperation makes sense in a factory because at least you (09:51):
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Aaron Tan: know if the robot gets hurt that the worker doesn't right so all (09:54):
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Aaron Tan: these concepts they all seem like they make a lot sense in in the factory but (09:57):
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Aaron Tan: it's just like when you try to take that and put it into the home it's like (10:01):
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Aaron Tan: everything is wrong you know like in the home people come from all backgrounds (10:04):
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Aaron Tan: all education all profession all different types of upbringing you cannot possibly (10:08):
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Aaron Tan: train every single person to be a factory employee essentially (10:12):
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Aaron Tan: Which like makes that whole free roaming system multi (10:16):
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Aaron Tan: degrees of freedom very very hard to (10:19):
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Aaron Tan: enter the home safely and then obviously teleoperation which (10:23):
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Aaron Tan: I touched on it's very not private the home is a very very private space the (10:26):
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Aaron Tan: factory is not it's a workspace space um so like all these things um made us (10:31):
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Aaron Tan: realize that we needed to sort of think about robotics for the home completely (10:37):
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Aaron Tan: differently and and i want to thank my wife here actually (10:42):
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Aaron Tan: the whole thing was inspired by beauty and the beast we were watching we were (10:46):
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Aaron Tan: watching beauty and the beast one night uh this is a few months ago actually (10:52):
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Aaron Tan: um and it was like this scene if you guys seen the movie or if anybody listening (10:55):
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Aaron Tan: who's seen the movie there's a scene where sort And the furniture comes alive. (10:59):
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Aaron Tan: And that was when we realized that, you know, we should... This is the form (11:04):
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Aaron Tan: factor that people are familiar with. (11:08):
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Aaron Tan: It's the form factor that has a place that it belongs in the home. (11:10):
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Aaron Tan: And we know that nobody wakes up asking for a robot anyway. People just don't want to do chores. (11:14):
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Aaron Tan: So we sort of designed it into this lamp form factor where... (11:20):
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Aaron Tan: It almost feels as if the, you know, like the, the chore sort of like magically, (11:25):
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Aaron Tan: you know, completes themselves and there's never sort of like yellow tape added (11:29):
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Aaron Tan: to your home and large clunking machines added to your home. (11:33):
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Ejaaz: Yeah. I immediately thought of Beauty and the Beast when I actually saw this video. (11:35):
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Ejaaz: And the natural question to ask from this is you're starting off with lamps, (11:41):
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Ejaaz: but like what can we expect next? (11:45):
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Ejaaz: Is there like a natural obvious robot that comes after the robotic arms folding laundry on the bed? (11:48):
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Aaron Tan: There is um there is i will say (11:54):
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Aaron Tan: at this very moment we have a lot (11:57):
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Aaron Tan: of designs of a lot of different types of robots but we're (12:00):
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Aaron Tan: not ready to share them yet uh the the (12:03):
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Aaron Tan: ones that we for sure will build in the coming (12:06):
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Aaron Tan: years is that there's going to be a sort of a suite a suite (12:08):
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Aaron Tan: of lamps um from tabletop lamps to full lamps (12:12):
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Aaron Tan: to lamps with multiple heads different styles different architectures we've (12:15):
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Aaron Tan: sort of like went on this deep dive of like every (12:18):
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Aaron Tan: single lamp that's ever been invented in the history of (12:21):
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Aaron Tan: time um and we are drawing inspirations from things that's worked you know hundreds (12:24):
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Aaron Tan: of years ago in terms of like the aesthetics the designs and we're just basically (12:29):
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Aaron Tan: trying to find ways to modernize them add robotic abilities to them um and basically (12:33):
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Aaron Tan: reinvent the lamp almost in a way from ceiling lamps all the way down to floor lamps i (12:37):
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Ejaaz: I have to i have to say i i love this obsession with not just like singular (12:42):
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Ejaaz: use robots but like a singular kind of type of furniture. (12:48):
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Ejaaz: And it seems pretty embedded in your philosophy for building robots. (12:53):
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Ejaaz: Would you say that's pretty accurate for like what the entire company's vision is? (12:57):
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Ejaaz: Like, are you going to be building single use robots that do one thing really (13:00):
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Ejaaz: well? Or are these going to be multi purpose at some point? (13:05):
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Aaron Tan: I think they will eventually be multi purpose. But I think, you know, (13:08):
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Aaron Tan: like the overall mission of the company is to be able to build beautiful robots (13:11):
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Aaron Tan: that blend beautifully into human made worlds. (13:15):
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Aaron Tan: And right now, what that looks like are these lamps that don't look like robots, essentially. (13:17):
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Aaron Tan: But, you know, as you know, AI advances at such a, you know, (13:23):
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Aaron Tan: fast pace. Hardware does as well. Technology is always changing. (13:26):
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Aaron Tan: We don't want to limit ourselves eventually to just single purpose, single use. (13:31):
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Aaron Tan: It's just so that right now, that is the only feasible way to deploy such a (13:35):
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Aaron Tan: system into the home in the next few years. (13:40):
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Josh: I'm curious how you view the difference between the single use versus humanoid robots. (13:45):
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Josh: If it's an intermediary step or if it's a permanent fixture because (13:49):
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Josh: it feels like the reason we're making so many humanoids is (13:52):
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Josh: just because like the world is built for humans right and it's just very easy to (13:55):
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Josh: integrate something that has the same form as us um and (13:57):
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Josh: these narrow use you'll at least right now as kind of an intermediary step where (14:01):
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Josh: they're just really good at a few things mostly because humanoid robots aren't (14:05):
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Josh: that great and they're kind of they need to tell operation like you mentioned (14:08):
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Josh: before and there's a lot more maintenance required for a complex humanoid robot (14:11):
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Josh: do you view these narrow use robots as an intermediate step to humanoid? (14:14):
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Josh: Or do you think they're like a permanent fixture as we move forward and progress with robots? (14:19):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, yeah. I think more of the latter than the former. And I have so many thoughts on this, actually. (14:24):
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Aaron Tan: But I'll sort of start with one at a time. (14:29):
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Aaron Tan: I think that the way I sort of imagine this, how this plays out is that, (14:33):
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Aaron Tan: you know, like the human noise form factor, obviously, is great. (14:40):
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Aaron Tan: Like, again, like I see so many benefits of it, especially in a factory setting, (14:43):
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Aaron Tan: because there's just so many use cases where it doesn't make sense to sort of (14:47):
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Aaron Tan: have like a single device that handles all. (14:51):
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Aaron Tan: There's always these kind of like last mile type of tasks where you (14:52):
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Aaron Tan: would need an adaptable form factor to be able to handle um but (14:56):
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Aaron Tan: the thing is you know the one analogy that (15:00):
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Aaron Tan: i like to use is that in the best case scenario a humanoid robot let's just (15:03):
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Aaron Tan: like sort of um scale it to the limits let's imagine that they are basically (15:07):
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Aaron Tan: as good as us so they look like us talk like us you know think like us act like (15:12):
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Aaron Tan: us i know there's a future where they're actually better than us but for the (15:16):
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Aaron Tan: sake of this let's just assume that we'll (15:20):
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Josh: Try that line there. (15:22):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah let's draw the line that they cap at exactly like (15:22):
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Aaron Tan: us perfect and and in this world (15:25):
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Aaron Tan: so they become indistinguishable right this is the best case scenario which (15:28):
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Aaron Tan: in my personal opinion will take a few miracles and probably a few decades to (15:31):
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Aaron Tan: get to um but in this world um (15:34):
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Aaron Tan: i personally think that uh a version (15:37):
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Aaron Tan: of that world already exists right now uh and it's like you guys hire cleaners (15:41):
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Aaron Tan: to to sort of enter your home and these are sort of like you know people that (15:45):
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Aaron Tan: you hire to to do labor uh but the thing is like there's this stat that's the (15:49):
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Aaron Tan: surprising stat that i found in estates which is that 70 of people uh (15:54):
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Aaron Tan: If they're able to afford such a help, they still choose not to. (16:00):
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Aaron Tan: And I used to think that it's because people can't afford it. (16:06):
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Aaron Tan: That's why they don't want it. (16:10):
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Aaron Tan: But the truth actually is that 70% of the people who can afford it still don't choose to do it. (16:12):
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Aaron Tan: And the reason quite simply is just that humans are territorial. (16:16):
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Aaron Tan: The home is a private space. There's sort of this trust that you're giving to (16:20):
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Aaron Tan: others when they enter your personal space that a lot of people don't find comfortable with. (16:24):
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Aaron Tan: In fact, I think another surprising stat was that I think it was like a quarter (16:30):
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Aaron Tan: of the people, if they were given free in-home help, they would still reject it for the same reason. (16:36):
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Aaron Tan: So when all that blended in together, at best case scenario, (16:42):
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Aaron Tan: I'm sure that there is a segment of the market that will happily welcome a humanoid into their home. (16:47):
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Aaron Tan: But I'm willing to bet that the majority of the market, at least for the home (16:52):
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Aaron Tan: use case, simply just want tools that they can sort of like control on demand, that they can use. (16:56):
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Aaron Tan: They're still very much the owner of their space and they're not sharing sort (17:03):
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Aaron Tan: of with like a robotic roommate. (17:07):
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Aaron Tan: I mean, that's also one of the reasons why people don't prefer to live with (17:08):
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Aaron Tan: roommates unless it's for companionship. (17:11):
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Aaron Tan: But I don't think that robot companionship is something that's going to happen. (17:14):
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Aaron Tan: It's not a robot thing. I think it's a human thing. (17:18):
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Aaron Tan: So that's sort of like how I see like we're essentially addressing the market (17:22):
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Aaron Tan: that simply just don't want to share their space, whether it be with another (17:26):
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Aaron Tan: human or a pseudo human per se. (17:29):
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Josh: Do you think people are coming around to that idea as robots become more prevalent (17:32):
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Josh: in the world to let them into their spaces? Because I think a lot of people (17:36):
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Josh: in the case of AI, they they have slowly kind of eased their way into it. (17:40):
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Josh: And then there reaches a point. (17:45):
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Josh: I mean, I'm thinking of ChatGPT when I think of this, where they just fully (17:47):
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Josh: unload everything. And now it becomes their therapist, their psychologist, (17:50):
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Josh: their personal assistant, everything. (17:54):
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Josh: It just learns everything about their life. There was some reluctance to get (17:56):
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Josh: to that point, but eventually they've reached that point. (17:58):
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Josh: Do you see a similar thing happening here? Even just with the pre-orders and (18:00):
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Josh: feedback you've gotten from the product, is this something that people are willing (18:04):
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Josh: to put in their homes or does there still need to be more work in terms of safety? (18:07):
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Josh: I mean, if I'm thinking, like I just had a child, let's say, (18:11):
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Josh: and that child's sitting in the bed. (18:14):
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Josh: Well, no, I didn't. I'm just using a rhetorical example. Okay, okay. (18:16):
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Josh: In the case that I did, let's say that I have one just like laying in my bed (18:20):
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Josh: over here and there are two robotic arms sitting there. (18:22):
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Josh: Do I trust that the robotic arms are not going to harm that child in any sort of glitch? (18:25):
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Josh: And do you think people are having trouble getting over that idea? (18:29):
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Josh: Or do you see it just being this natural stepping stone and people are on board and ready to go? (18:32):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the world, the average home has never, (18:38):
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Aaron Tan: I think that even the average person has never even interacted with a robot in their life. (18:43):
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Aaron Tan: I think that this is like a sort of a brand new category of product that will (18:47):
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Aaron Tan: for sure, you know, sort of take some time for people to get used to. (18:51):
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Aaron Tan: I think that you know obviously we're going to have the early adopters that (18:56):
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Aaron Tan: come on and they get super excited about such a thing and the way we're framing (19:00):
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Aaron Tan: our product is that it's both safer and more private (19:04):
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Aaron Tan: than the alternative home robotic solution (19:09):
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Aaron Tan: simply just because you as a resident in the home know at all times where the robot is (19:12):
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Aaron Tan: so for example if you had placed your child on a bed and you had a human or (19:19):
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Aaron Tan: a robot So maybe you cannot fully protect that child from the human robot because (19:24):
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Aaron Tan: the human robot sort of has free will to roam. (19:28):
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Aaron Tan: But because you already know that the robotic arms are there by the bed, (19:30):
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Aaron Tan: which is where you placed it, it's not going to leave. (19:34):
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Aaron Tan: Maybe the question is more so like if you don't trust it, then you probably (19:36):
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Aaron Tan: place your baby somewhere else, you know, because you mentally know that that (19:39):
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Aaron Tan: is like a robotic space, almost part of your home. (19:44):
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Ejaaz: I feel like we're kind of broaching the topic of humans being comfortable around robots. (19:49):
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Ejaaz: And if I'm being honest with you, Aaron, I was kind of a robot hater like a (19:56):
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Ejaaz: couple of months ago because I was like, what are these like random sci-fi things (20:00):
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Ejaaz: that it must be all janky? (20:05):
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Ejaaz: I see videos of them falling over. (20:07):
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Ejaaz: Josh and I actually watched the Robot Olympics that were held in China over the weekend. (20:09):
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Ejaaz: And most of them were kind of like fails and they were super entertaining. (20:12):
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Ejaaz: Um i'm kind of trying to (20:16):
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Ejaaz: figure out whether people are getting more comfortable with (20:19):
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Ejaaz: these robots and kind of like co-living around them right (20:22):
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Ejaaz: how important or real you think this phenomenon is do you think this is just (20:25):
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Ejaaz: kind of like a viral trend i know like you've got a company that's building (20:30):
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Ejaaz: these robots for decades from now but can you help us help our listeners understand (20:33):
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Ejaaz: the pitch of why robots are going to like essentially take over the world over (20:39):
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Ejaaz: the next couple of decades (20:42):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah i mean i i hope (20:43):
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Aaron Tan: they don't take over the world to be honest um i hope that (20:47):
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Aaron Tan: they i hope that they you know make the world a better place i guess i should (20:49):
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Aaron Tan: say i think that robots are at the end of the day a tool and they shouldn't (20:54):
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Aaron Tan: be sort of like autonomous self-thinking beings um that that act on their own (20:57):
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Aaron Tan: behalf with their own interests uh i think that that's (21:04):
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Aaron Tan: going to be a dangerous world um and i (21:08):
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Aaron Tan: don't know if i yeah i personally i don't know if i want to live in a world like that uh (21:11):
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Aaron Tan: for in terms of like sort of (21:15):
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Aaron Tan: like you know getting getting robots into the home again like our main thing (21:18):
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Aaron Tan: is that we want to free people's time like when you think about it it's 24 hours (21:22):
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Aaron Tan: in a day and it's like people sleep for eight hours work for eight hours the (21:26):
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Aaron Tan: remaining eight hours a day probably a good chunk of that is commute or chores (21:29):
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Aaron Tan: or whatever So even if you could just save someone like 30 minutes, an hour, (21:33):
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Aaron Tan: that's like a good percentage of the time in their day, right? (21:36):
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Aaron Tan: That's freed up. And I think that's ultimately a good thing. (21:39):
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Aaron Tan: And I think the way that we sort of, (21:44):
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Aaron Tan: sort of introduce robots into the home is that we have to be very, (21:47):
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Aaron Tan: very intentional with messaging, which is that, and I think this can only be (21:51):
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Aaron Tan: achieved with a single purpose robot to start with, which is that you have to (21:55):
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Aaron Tan: be able to tell people like what it can and cannot do. (21:58):
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Aaron Tan: Don't tell people that's general purpose. Don't tell people that it's a human (22:00):
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Aaron Tan: assistant that you can ask anything of. (22:03):
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Aaron Tan: Just say that, you know, at least for us is that it will fold laundry and this (22:06):
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Aaron Tan: is how you interact with it. You dump the laundry on the bed, you walk away. (22:10):
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Aaron Tan: It can be voice activation. it can be a button like a dishwasher it (22:13):
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Aaron Tan: could be an app that you sort of log into and you you (22:16):
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Aaron Tan: you give a permission to activate um and only (22:19):
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Aaron Tan: when you do that very very clearly and you tell people exactly what the workspace (22:23):
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Aaron Tan: is uh like something that i like is you know from like the vr world you can (22:27):
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Aaron Tan: sort of like draw this boundary around you when you're in the living room and (22:31):
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Aaron Tan: as you're sort of approach the walls it kind of like lights up and you know you know to go back (22:34):
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Aaron Tan: it's like similar concept but for robots in the home like i think (22:40):
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Aaron Tan: robots need to have like a fixed space that people know (22:42):
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Aaron Tan: where it's operating um you should be able (22:45):
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Aaron Tan: to know when it's on and when it's off um and (22:48):
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Aaron Tan: you should know exactly what it can and cannot do uh i think that's how you (22:51):
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Aaron Tan: would be able to manage expectations and that's how you earn trust and that's (22:55):
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Aaron Tan: how i think you'll be able to build like a generation of people that might grow (22:58):
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Aaron Tan: up with one of these lamps uh to have that positive connotation and positive (23:01):
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Aaron Tan: interaction with uh with robotics uh yeah yeah (23:05):
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Ejaaz: You keep referring to this home, which I love. So let's play a game. (23:10):
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Ejaaz: Five to 10 years from now, what (23:16):
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Ejaaz: does the average home look like in a world where home robots are a thing? (23:19):
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Ejaaz: What else are they doing aside from folding clothes? (23:24):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, yeah. So folding laundry is like our wedge into the home just because (23:27):
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Aaron Tan: it's like, and I'm sure you already know this, it's like a very annoying task (23:31):
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Aaron Tan: that people would actually pay money for. (23:35):
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Aaron Tan: Uh and once the the (23:37):
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Aaron Tan: internal saying is you know success to us is a loom in every room (23:41):
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Aaron Tan: um which is that we we see a world where (23:44):
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Aaron Tan: people own multiple of these lamps and depending on where they're placed (23:46):
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Aaron Tan: in the home they'll do whatever task that makes sense in (23:49):
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Aaron Tan: that context so for example a loom that's (23:52):
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Aaron Tan: in the kitchen might be able to help you with meal prepping whereas (23:55):
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Aaron Tan: a loom that's in your you know library might be (23:58):
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Aaron Tan: able to help you with tidying your bookshelf um and (24:01):
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Aaron Tan: and the whole idea is that you kind of (24:04):
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Aaron Tan: have these like limited range and limited pockets of where (24:07):
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Aaron Tan: the robot is um and and (24:10):
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Aaron Tan: yeah it will do whatever sort of we almost (24:14):
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Aaron Tan: wanted to be uh i sort of mentioned the other interview i (24:17):
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Aaron Tan: said that there will be like an app store almost um where (24:19):
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Aaron Tan: you'll be able to download different apps and you know (24:23):
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Aaron Tan: like gift wrapping is an app steaming is an app laundry folding is an (24:25):
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Aaron Tan: app uh meal prepping is an app oh super like (24:28):
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Aaron Tan: sorting of knickknacks around the home whatever is an (24:32):
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Aaron Tan: app and it's all enabled by the same form factor uh we we see this almost like (24:35):
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Aaron Tan: a kind of like the standard almost the default the foundational robot platform (24:40):
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Aaron Tan: uh that exists in every home that you can now go to get chores done or get tasks (24:45):
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Aaron Tan: done maybe it's not necessarily chores (24:50):
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Josh: So if laundry is the wedge, what comes next? What other cool, (24:54):
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Josh: weird things can we expect to come from these arms? (24:58):
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Ejaaz: We're going to keep pushing you on this, Aaron. Come on, give us something. (25:02):
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Aaron Tan: There's like, so the way I see it is there's like almost like three phases. (25:07):
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Aaron Tan: Maybe I'll say this. There's three phases of how we're going to increase the capabilities. (25:11):
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Aaron Tan: And it's all going to revolve around the same sort of form factor. (25:17):
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Aaron Tan: So phase one is is any kind (25:20):
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Aaron Tan: of like sort of inanimate object type manipulation so laundry (25:23):
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Aaron Tan: folding being one but bed making or general sorting (25:26):
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Aaron Tan: meal prepping tidying ironing steaming you know all that kind of just like random (25:30):
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Aaron Tan: stuff around the home you know we want to get really good at this stuff before (25:36):
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Aaron Tan: we move on to the second phase which is what i would call like the non-invasive (25:40):
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Aaron Tan: human contact type applications and those include things like massages therapy rehab (25:43):
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Aaron Tan: things that you could sort of get while you're sitting on the couch or laying (25:50):
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Aaron Tan: in bed. Massages is one big one that people love. (25:54):
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Aaron Tan: So that's something that we're going to go into. (25:57):
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Aaron Tan: But again, anything with human contact, obviously, you want to be a lot more careful. (26:00):
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Aaron Tan: That's why we want to be slow with our rollout to make sure that these arms (26:03):
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Aaron Tan: are stable, they're precise, they're sort of compliant, and they're safe. (26:07):
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Aaron Tan: And then ultimately, we go towards this like phase three, which I want to say (26:11):
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Aaron Tan: is more like an invasive human contact. (26:16):
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Aaron Tan: Where we sort of see this world where (26:19):
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Aaron Tan: You know, here you have these two pairs of robotic arms that's in your home somewhere. (26:22):
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Aaron Tan: And we think that this can open up a world of healthcare applications where (26:28):
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Aaron Tan: doctors can remote into these arms and deliver care right in the comfort of your home. (26:33):
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Aaron Tan: So an example could be like, you know, you cut yourself downstairs, (26:39):
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Aaron Tan: you go upstairs, and now there's these like professional arms with a healthcare app or something. (26:43):
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Aaron Tan: And you can get stitched up immediately while laying in bed or whatever it is (26:47):
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Aaron Tan: without having to drive like two hours just to wait six hours in an emergency (26:52):
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Aaron Tan: room and see a doctor for like two minutes. (26:58):
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Aaron Tan: We think that ultimately, you know, the most scalable way to healthcare is through the home. (27:00):
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Aaron Tan: And to do that is through, I think, robots that have the ability to manipulate (27:06):
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Aaron Tan: soft objects, started with laundry folding, have the ability to be careful and (27:13):
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Aaron Tan: have the ability to have already earned people's trust in homes. (27:17):
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Aaron Tan: So when you ask what the future of home could look like, I almost see a world (27:21):
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Aaron Tan: where there's almost like a, you know, you have like a kitchen, (27:26):
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Aaron Tan: which is like where you go to cook, you have a living room, you have the bedroom, (27:28):
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Aaron Tan: but there should also be almost like a health hub, (27:30):
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Aaron Tan: which probably is going to be doubled on as your bedroom, where you can receive (27:32):
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Aaron Tan: care without having to leave your home. (27:37):
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Aaron Tan: So that's kind of like the full spectrum of potential things that I think can (27:40):
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Aaron Tan: happen without changing the form factor too much. (27:44):
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Josh: Okay, now I want to talk about timelines. And I know these are really hard and fuzzy. (27:47):
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Josh: But you mentioned a bit earlier that humanoid robots that look and feel just (27:50):
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Josh: like humans, that line that we drew, that probably takes decades. (27:55):
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Josh: So this will take less than decades, I'm going to assume. (27:57):
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Josh: And in fact, on the website, it says 2026 by the time we can expect, (28:01):
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Josh: I guess, the first version. (28:04):
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Josh: So what does it look like? I mean, in this category specifically, (28:06):
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Josh: but broadly speaking, how long is it until the average person do you think can (28:09):
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Josh: expect to have a robot inside of their home? (28:12):
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Josh: Is it going to be next year? Is it going to be in the next five years, decade? (28:15):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah. I mean, if you're talking about like mainstream adoption, (28:19):
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Aaron Tan: that's going to take at least a decade, right? (28:22):
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Aaron Tan: I think the last time the home received like a huge sort of like mass tech adoption (28:23):
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Aaron Tan: was in the 50s, where things like the microwave and all these kind of like appliances (28:29):
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Aaron Tan: made like a huge adoption. (28:35):
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Aaron Tan: I think I saw a stat that was like before the 50s, it was like under 30% adoption. (28:37):
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Aaron Tan: After the 50s, it was like above 80% adoption or something like that. (28:41):
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Aaron Tan: But it did take over like that decade. (28:43):
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Aaron Tan: Uh for us uh we will (28:45):
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Aaron Tan: ship our robots uh actually the there's an (28:48):
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Aaron Tan: early beta tester club now and they're going to get there six months from now (28:51):
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Aaron Tan: and these are primarily folks in the bay area that have reached out specifically to (28:53):
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Aaron Tan: me um and we're basically trying going to (28:56):
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Aaron Tan: install i'll personally go to their homes and install these systems (28:59):
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Aaron Tan: for them um in the next six or (29:02):
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Aaron Tan: so months um and the goal is that 12 months from now uh (29:05):
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Aaron Tan: we have a pretty large wait list but we're just basically going to sort of like (29:08):
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Aaron Tan: get people off of that main wait list starting 12 months from now at a sort (29:13):
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Aaron Tan: of a slow pace probably geographically closer to the bay area first um and then (29:18):
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Aaron Tan: expand uh sort of nationwide from there that's (29:22):
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Josh: Exciting so now i want to ask how practical is it (29:27):
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Josh: are they going to look like the arms in this video because i'm assuming that (29:29):
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Josh: was a rendering right and you guys are building and designing and i know a lot (29:32):
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Josh: of times to create the actual thing in a factory is a lot harder than designing (29:35):
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Josh: the pixels on a screen so what does the process look like to actually make it (29:39):
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Josh: look as elegant as the lamps that you showed in the rendering? (29:42):
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Josh: And do you feel confident about your ability to get there? (29:45):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, yeah. So those renderings are designed by our engineers. (29:48):
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Aaron Tan: And so they're not, I don't know if I mentioned this earlier, (29:52):
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Aaron Tan: some people thought that they were like AI generated videos, (29:55):
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Aaron Tan: but I always say I wish it was AI generated so I didn't have to pay so much money for it. (29:57):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, I'm sure. Money was spent, it was beautiful. (30:01):
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Aaron Tan: But yes, thank you. It will get pretty close to it. I have like a segment of the arm here. (30:04):
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Aaron Tan: And this is spec to sort of the actual width of the shaft. (30:12):
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Aaron Tan: So that's how it will be um these are like sort of the lampids and these are actually the robotic (30:18):
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Aaron Tan: um yeah so it will be uh roughly that (30:25):
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Aaron Tan: it might be a little bit shorter um and the (30:29):
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Aaron Tan: claws i think i don't want to call them claws because it might scare people (30:32):
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Aaron Tan: but uh the artists um i didn't (30:35):
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Aaron Tan: it was my fault because i didn't catch it the the claws look a bit metallic (30:38):
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Aaron Tan: uh in the video uh but they're not meant to be metallic they're supposed to (30:41):
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Aaron Tan: be like rubberish um so some people i pointed that out saying they look almost (30:45):
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Aaron Tan: like surgical tools i'm like in phase three they'll start looking a little bit (30:49):
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Aaron Tan: more like surgical tools but not right now i (30:54):
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Josh: Admire the fact that you are making the home look different for the first time (30:56):
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Josh: in 50 years i think a lot of the stagnation has happened in this where we talk (30:59):
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Josh: about this a lot in the world of of atoms where just if you if i go into my (31:03):
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Josh: grandmother's house it hasn't changed in 50 years but it doesn't look like it (31:07):
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Josh: doesn't belong in this century, (31:10):
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Josh: aside from like maybe the plastic on the couch and like some outdated ornamentaries. (31:12):
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Josh: But in terms of technology, I mean, there's a TV on the wall, (31:15):
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Josh: there's a microwave in the kitchen. (31:18):
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Josh: It's all relatively the same. And I think a huge part that moves us forward (31:19):
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Josh: into this future looking like the future is robots. (31:23):
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Josh: And a big part of that is robots in our home. It's making us feel more comfortable (31:26):
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Josh: with them around. It's making them beautiful, but functional. (31:29):
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Josh: And they're there to serve a purpose and to just kind of enhance everyone's life. (31:33):
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Josh: So I really admire you for trying to tackle this problem, for doing it in a (31:39):
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Josh: way that looks so great, for hopefully shipping these out the door very soon. (31:43):
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Josh: Is there anything other parting words you want to share? How people can get (31:46):
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Josh: access to them, get on the pre-order line, what they can expect? (31:49):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, just a little bit on that point. (31:53):
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Aaron Tan: I think somebody mentioned to me very recently, he's like, you know, (31:56):
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Aaron Tan: the only new device between my house and my grandma's house is an air fryer. (31:59):
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Aaron Tan: That was like the latest breakthrough in the home, which I thought was kind (32:05):
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Aaron Tan: of funny because like you said, TVs existed, refrigerators existed and all these other things. (32:10):
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Aaron Tan: So, yeah, so we're hopefully we're we're hopefully, you know, (32:14):
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Aaron Tan: entering into a new era where home robotics will make the next big paradigm (32:18):
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Aaron Tan: shift in the home. And we want to be a part of that. (32:23):
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Aaron Tan: And we want to do that in a way that makes people feel comfortable. (32:26):
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Aaron Tan: We want to do that in a way where it makes your at least your home still looking (32:29):
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Aaron Tan: like a, you know, like a home and beautiful and all that kind of stuff. (32:32):
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Aaron Tan: So. So, yeah, happy to happy to be on on the pod today. (32:37):
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Aaron Tan: If anybody listening is interested you can check us out at Sincere AI on X on (32:42):
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Aaron Tan: Twitter that's where we typically post our updates Alright, (32:49):
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Ejaaz: Well this has been super exciting, I feel like we're at like an iPhone moment, (32:54):
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Ejaaz: I know you haven't released the product yet but we're getting there, (32:59):
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Ejaaz: this is the first robot, as Josh said, kind of like that appealed to me and (33:02):
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Ejaaz: that I would willingly have in my home and that I think my girlfriend would (33:06):
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Ejaaz: be chill about having in my home as well versus some six foot five humanoid robot. (33:08):
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Ejaaz: It sounds like these robots aren't just going to be used for practicality, (33:13):
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Ejaaz: so chores around the house, but also potentially leisure in the form of massages (33:19):
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Ejaaz: and also vital health care in the form of like doctor-like work that they can remotely access. (33:24):
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Ejaaz: So all around, this has been a super cool conversation. (33:29):
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Ejaaz: And Aaron, thank you so much for coming on. For the listeners, (33:32):
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Ejaaz: if you enjoyed this, please like, subscribe and share it with all your friends. (33:36):
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Ejaaz: And we'll see you on the next one. (33:39):
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Josh: Awesome. See you guys. (33:42):
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Aaron Tan: Thank you. Bye-bye. (33:43):
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Music: Music (33:46):
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Ejaaz: look like a robot in fact they look like two bedside table lamps that morph (00:07):
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Ejaaz: into robotic arms and fold the laundry that's on your bed no six foot five humanoid (00:13):
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Ejaaz: robot just clean decisive robotic arms that do what you want it to do and remove (00:19):
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Ejaaz: the most hated chore ever. (00:25):
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Ejaaz: But don't take my word for it. We have the founder, Aaron Tan, (00:27):
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Ejaaz: of Sincere on our show today that's going to walk us through it. (00:31):
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Ejaaz: Aaron, welcome to the show. (00:35):
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Ejaaz: I want to start off pretty hot and straight to the point. (00:37):
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Ejaaz: What is Loom and why did you build it? (00:40):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, yeah. I mean, thanks for the intro and thanks for having me on. (00:44):
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Aaron Tan: Loom, I think, in its simplest form is it's a robotic lamp. (00:49):
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Aaron Tan: It's designed to not look like a robot at all. We want to sort of get rid of (00:54):
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Aaron Tan: chores for people in a way without making them feel like we're adding robots into their home. (00:58):
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Aaron Tan: And a lamp, based on its silhouette and its form factor, is sort of like the (01:03):
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Aaron Tan: perfect shape to hire robotics in plain sight. (01:08):
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Aaron Tan: So that's what we're building at Sincere. (01:12):
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Josh: Aaron, I loved the video. There's some things that when I'm scrolling my timeline, (01:15):
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Josh: I see and they just kind of break my mind. (01:18):
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Josh: They break the perception of what it means to be a robot. (01:20):
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Josh: This was one of them because so frequently I see these things that look like (01:23):
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Josh: humanoid robots or you see like these kind of robotic cars or vehicles. (01:27):
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Josh: This was very obscure. This was, it was lampposts that kind of turn into arms that fold your laundry. (01:31):
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Josh: And it just felt very natural when I saw it. It felt right. (01:37):
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Josh: There's some things you see and it just feels right. So how does this work? (01:39):
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Josh: Like, is this possible that it can actually just sit as a lamppost and And then (01:43):
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Josh: it can kind of reach over your bed and do the laundry while you're gone. (01:47):
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Josh: Can you just explain to me how this product functions? It's just going to sit (01:50):
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Josh: there and do my laundry? Is that really that simple? (01:53):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, yeah. I mean, no, I'm glad that you like it. (01:55):
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Aaron Tan: And, you know, what it is, it's we... (02:00):
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Aaron Tan: They're meant so that you could place them sort of anywhere in the home. (02:04):
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Aaron Tan: It just so happens that when we spoke to a lot of people, it's that the bedroom (02:07):
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Aaron Tan: happens to be a place where a lot of people do their laundry. (02:11):
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Aaron Tan: People just dump it on the bed because it's such a large surface. (02:13):
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Aaron Tan: The closet is usually nearby, so they fold the laundry in front of the bed and they put it away. (02:16):
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Aaron Tan: What the workflow we sort of imagine is that, you know, you do the same things, (02:22):
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Aaron Tan: except now you just get to dump your laundry on the bed. (02:26):
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Aaron Tan: You walk away, you go watch a movie or, you know, have a meal. (02:29):
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Aaron Tan: And then when you come back, it's supposed to feel like the laundry sort of (02:31):
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Aaron Tan: magically folded and sorted themselves. (02:35):
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Aaron Tan: And you only have to handle the part where you put it away yourself right at the end there. (02:37):
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Aaron Tan: And yeah, we're starting with laundry folding. But you can probably imagine (02:43):
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Aaron Tan: what a pair of robotic arms or single, you could buy them either by itself or as a pair. (02:47):
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Aaron Tan: You can imagine all the kind of like things that it can do depending on where (02:53):
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Aaron Tan: you place them in the home. (02:57):
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Ejaaz: Okay so for the listeners of our show that can't (02:59):
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Ejaaz: see this awesome video that's going on loop right now they're kind (03:02):
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Ejaaz: of wondering how on earth this works aaron so right now they're imagining like (03:05):
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Ejaaz: two bedside table lamps but can you walk us through how it works like are there (03:10):
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Ejaaz: like specific claws that like pinch how do they see things how do they know (03:14):
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Ejaaz: when you're out of the room and when you're not sleeping and they're going to (03:18):
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Ejaaz: like poke your eyes out how does this work Yeah, (03:21):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah. So you can sort of just imagine a floor lamp. So it's, (03:24):
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Aaron Tan: you know, tall, skinny, single pole. (03:27):
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Aaron Tan: There are sort of lamp hoods at the top of the lamp that conceals everything (03:30):
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Aaron Tan: that is robotic about this lamp. (03:35):
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Aaron Tan: So obviously there's going to be lights inside the lamp hood so that it can (03:36):
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Aaron Tan: serve the basic purpose of a lamp. (03:39):
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Aaron Tan: But with those lights, there's also robot grippers in there as well as a camera. (03:42):
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Aaron Tan: A lot of people sort of like wonder about privacy about these things. (03:47):
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Aaron Tan: But the great thing here is that the lamp hoods sort of conceal everything until (03:50):
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Aaron Tan: you've given it permission to fold your laundry or do whatever the task may be. (03:56):
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Aaron Tan: Then it sort of like almost folds back, reveals the camera, reveals the gripper, (04:01):
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Aaron Tan: detects the clothing, and then goes ahead and folds. (04:06):
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Aaron Tan: Obviously, it'll make sure that no one is laying in bed or on the couch or by (04:10):
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Aaron Tan: the table because there's a variety of places where laundry clothing can happen. yeah (04:14):
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Ejaaz: Okay, and how much does this thing cost? Like, I can imagine that for a troll (04:21):
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Ejaaz: that I hate so much, I'm willing to pay like a couple grand for it. (04:27):
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Ejaaz: But yeah, can you tell us how that works? (04:30):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, yeah. So we, I mean, right now we have some ideas like pricing is obviously (04:33):
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Aaron Tan: a tricky one, but we want to get it to people for as cheap as possible. (04:39):
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Aaron Tan: We're experimenting with two models. There's sort of two camps just from the (04:44):
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Aaron Tan: people that signed up on the wait list. I'm in direct communication with them all the time. (04:47):
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Aaron Tan: And it's either going to be like a one-time fixed fee sub $2,000 or maybe just (04:52):
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Aaron Tan: a few hundred dollars where you buy the lamp for the lamp itself and then pay (04:58):
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Aaron Tan: like a subscription for the folding. (05:01):
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Aaron Tan: So it's like paying a cleaner, (05:04):
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Ejaaz: Basically, like to come in every reason. (05:06):
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Aaron Tan: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So we're still sort of experimenting to see what (05:08):
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Aaron Tan: resonates the most with people. (05:12):
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Aaron Tan: I'm happy to hear actually your guys' thoughts on what you think would be the proper pricing model. (05:13):
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Ejaaz: Honestly just to like off the top of my head i (05:22):
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Ejaaz: would be willing to pay it like on (05:25):
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Ejaaz: a subscription level like how i would pay i pay a (05:28):
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Ejaaz: cleaner to come in now every kind of like couple of weeks and covers everything (05:30):
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Ejaaz: including the laundry and the folding as well which is a massive win and i was (05:35):
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Ejaaz: wondering that if i could have something that is aesthetically pleasing to my (05:41):
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Ejaaz: taste um and can do all the job and work for me for the cost of, (05:45):
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Ejaaz: I don't know, electricity or a Netflix subscription. (05:49):
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Ejaaz: I'm all game for that. Josh, do you have a conflicting opinion here? (05:52):
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Josh: Yeah, as you're describing this, actually, I'm thinking about my memberships (05:55):
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Josh: that I have between my Whoop and my Oura Ring and kind of the differences between the two. (05:58):
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Josh: With the Oura Ring, you purchase an expensive ring for about $400 and $6 a month (06:01):
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Josh: versus the Whoop that you get for free, but you're paying $30 a month. (06:05):
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Josh: And I kind of actually like paying a little bit more upfront with the expectation (06:08):
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Josh: that the smaller monthly payment will be in exchange for updates and continuing (06:12):
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Josh: to maintain the software stack. (06:16):
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Josh: So if you were to price it maybe closer to $2,000 and instead of maybe $100 (06:18):
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Josh: monthly fee, a $20 monthly fee, that to me feels a little more exciting because (06:22):
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Josh: it's manageable. I don't really have to budget too much for the subscription. (06:26):
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Josh: And I have paid up front with the promise that hopefully future software updates (06:29):
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Josh: will deliver added functionality. (06:33):
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Josh: So to me, at least that seems like the fun way to price this thing. (06:35):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, I sort of agree with you guys. (06:38):
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Aaron Tan: That's sort of what I'm personally leaning on. But the thing I'm trying to be (06:42):
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Aaron Tan: cautious of is, because I know that a lot of folks have also reached out and (06:45):
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Aaron Tan: told me and they're kind of, you know, just sick of being tied to a bunch of subscriptions. (06:49):
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Aaron Tan: I get where they're coming from, because you don't want to feel like you're (06:52):
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Aaron Tan: being nickel and dime for every time you want a chore done. (06:55):
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Aaron Tan: That's not the typical relationship people have with their appliances, (06:58):
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Aaron Tan: like a laundry machine or a dishwasher. (07:01):
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Aaron Tan: Sure um so yeah i totally see where you guys come from uh but we we probably (07:03):
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Aaron Tan: have to sort of test it to see what the market says uh but yeah i (07:09):
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Josh: Want to talk about design for a little bit because i mean obviously the first (07:14):
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Josh: thing that stuck out was the design this is gorgeous and this was not by accident (07:17):
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Josh: this was a very intentional design it looks very friendly it doesn't look robotic (07:20):
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Josh: or mean or or anything like. (07:25):
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Aaron Tan: That can you walk (07:27):
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Josh: Me through the design process how you wound up with this because i mean at first (07:27):
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Josh: glance we're watching the video now it looks like they're just two fixed lampposts (07:30):
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Josh: to a bed there's no sign of it being a robot so can you walk us through just (07:33):
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Josh: like the thought process behind designing these types of robots for the home. (07:37):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah yeah i mean so i think (07:39):
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Aaron Tan: you know i when we set out to build this product we (07:42):
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Aaron Tan: didn't knew that this was going to be the thing that we built and (07:46):
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Aaron Tan: in fact the first thing that we tried to build as a company uh is (07:48):
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Aaron Tan: me and my co-founder and we have a small team of about six people here right (07:51):
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Aaron Tan: now um we actually were building a (07:54):
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Aaron Tan: humanoid first because we were (07:57):
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Aaron Tan: uh we were you know we didn't we had just finished our phds and (08:00):
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Aaron Tan: we were you know just we didn't think too much about the idea we (08:03):
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Aaron Tan: just didn't want to do chores as as most engineers i (08:06):
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Aaron Tan: guess are pretty lazy um so we we went (08:09):
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Aaron Tan: in and we built a humanoid robot two arms and (08:12):
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Aaron Tan: two wheels you know got it into homes got it into hotels (08:15):
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Aaron Tan: you know got it in front of real people and it was (08:18):
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Aaron Tan: only through doing that that we realized that the majority (08:21):
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Aaron Tan: of people outside of like the tech bubble or like (08:25):
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Aaron Tan: the you know the technical inclined population which is the majority (08:28):
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Aaron Tan: of people um they they don't (08:31):
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Aaron Tan: actually want something that's like pseudo-human like (08:34):
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Aaron Tan: it's almost like a like a sentient being almost like a (08:37):
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Aaron Tan: robotic roommate that you have to share your home with um and (08:40):
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Aaron Tan: you know one thing led to another you know (08:44):
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Aaron Tan: people told us it was intrusive it was a bit intimidating um there's (08:46):
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Aaron Tan: no way to guarantee it sort of like falling on the child or (08:50):
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Aaron Tan: just hitting things and and there's there's also (08:53):
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Aaron Tan: mixing with this whole like it's probably going to be (08:56):
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Aaron Tan: majority uh tele-operated so you know (08:59):
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Aaron Tan: you're giving cameras and arms to people that are potentially (09:01):
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Aaron Tan: overseas or somewhere else um you know when all that mixed in we just essentially (09:04):
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Aaron Tan: Got a lot of pushback from people adopting the human or form factor into the (09:09):
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Aaron Tan: home um so we we we as a team we sort of took a step back and we sort of thought (09:13):
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Aaron Tan: to ourselves you know it certainly feels like there's all these chores that people hate doing. (09:20):
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Aaron Tan: And it certainly feels like robotics is the way to get rid of these chores. (09:24):
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Aaron Tan: But the way that people have been approaching the problem feels kind of the wrong way. (09:27):
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Aaron Tan: It kind of feels like everybody is trying to (09:33):
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Aaron Tan: Take things that made sense in an industrial setting like a (09:36):
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Aaron Tan: factory where humanoids could make sense in a factory in my (09:39):
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Aaron Tan: opinion but that's only because like you could train your (09:42):
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Aaron Tan: staff to be cautious around the robot you can draw yellow tape (09:45):
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Aaron Tan: on the line you could sort of you know all (09:48):
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Aaron Tan: these like even teleoperation makes sense in a factory because at least you (09:51):
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Aaron Tan: know if the robot gets hurt that the worker doesn't right so all (09:54):
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Aaron Tan: these concepts they all seem like they make a lot sense in in the factory but (09:57):
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Aaron Tan: it's just like when you try to take that and put it into the home it's like (10:01):
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Aaron Tan: everything is wrong you know like in the home people come from all backgrounds (10:04):
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Aaron Tan: all education all profession all different types of upbringing you cannot possibly (10:08):
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Aaron Tan: train every single person to be a factory employee essentially (10:12):
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Aaron Tan: Which like makes that whole free roaming system multi (10:16):
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Aaron Tan: degrees of freedom very very hard to (10:19):
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Aaron Tan: enter the home safely and then obviously teleoperation which (10:23):
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Aaron Tan: I touched on it's very not private the home is a very very private space the (10:26):
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Aaron Tan: factory is not it's a workspace space um so like all these things um made us (10:31):
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Aaron Tan: realize that we needed to sort of think about robotics for the home completely (10:37):
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Aaron Tan: differently and and i want to thank my wife here actually (10:42):
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Aaron Tan: the whole thing was inspired by beauty and the beast we were watching we were (10:46):
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Aaron Tan: watching beauty and the beast one night uh this is a few months ago actually (10:52):
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Aaron Tan: um and it was like this scene if you guys seen the movie or if anybody listening (10:55):
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Aaron Tan: who's seen the movie there's a scene where sort And the furniture comes alive. (10:59):
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Aaron Tan: And that was when we realized that, you know, we should... This is the form (11:04):
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Aaron Tan: factor that people are familiar with. (11:08):
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Aaron Tan: It's the form factor that has a place that it belongs in the home. (11:10):
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Aaron Tan: And we know that nobody wakes up asking for a robot anyway. People just don't want to do chores. (11:14):
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Aaron Tan: So we sort of designed it into this lamp form factor where... (11:20):
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Aaron Tan: It almost feels as if the, you know, like the, the chore sort of like magically, (11:25):
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Aaron Tan: you know, completes themselves and there's never sort of like yellow tape added (11:29):
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Aaron Tan: to your home and large clunking machines added to your home. (11:33):
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Ejaaz: Yeah. I immediately thought of Beauty and the Beast when I actually saw this video. (11:35):
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Ejaaz: And the natural question to ask from this is you're starting off with lamps, (11:41):
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Ejaaz: but like what can we expect next? (11:45):
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Ejaaz: Is there like a natural obvious robot that comes after the robotic arms folding laundry on the bed? (11:48):
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Aaron Tan: There is um there is i will say (11:54):
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Aaron Tan: at this very moment we have a lot (11:57):
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Aaron Tan: of designs of a lot of different types of robots but we're (12:00):
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Aaron Tan: not ready to share them yet uh the the (12:03):
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Aaron Tan: ones that we for sure will build in the coming (12:06):
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Aaron Tan: years is that there's going to be a sort of a suite a suite (12:08):
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Aaron Tan: of lamps um from tabletop lamps to full lamps (12:12):
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Aaron Tan: to lamps with multiple heads different styles different architectures we've (12:15):
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Aaron Tan: sort of like went on this deep dive of like every (12:18):
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Aaron Tan: single lamp that's ever been invented in the history of (12:21):
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Aaron Tan: time um and we are drawing inspirations from things that's worked you know hundreds (12:24):
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Aaron Tan: of years ago in terms of like the aesthetics the designs and we're just basically (12:29):
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Aaron Tan: trying to find ways to modernize them add robotic abilities to them um and basically (12:33):
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Aaron Tan: reinvent the lamp almost in a way from ceiling lamps all the way down to floor lamps i (12:37):
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Ejaaz: I have to i have to say i i love this obsession with not just like singular (12:42):
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Ejaaz: use robots but like a singular kind of type of furniture. (12:48):
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Ejaaz: And it seems pretty embedded in your philosophy for building robots. (12:53):
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Ejaaz: Would you say that's pretty accurate for like what the entire company's vision is? (12:57):
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Ejaaz: Like, are you going to be building single use robots that do one thing really (13:00):
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Ejaaz: well? Or are these going to be multi purpose at some point? (13:05):
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Aaron Tan: I think they will eventually be multi purpose. But I think, you know, (13:08):
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Aaron Tan: like the overall mission of the company is to be able to build beautiful robots (13:11):
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Aaron Tan: that blend beautifully into human made worlds. (13:15):
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Aaron Tan: And right now, what that looks like are these lamps that don't look like robots, essentially. (13:17):
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Aaron Tan: But, you know, as you know, AI advances at such a, you know, (13:23):
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Aaron Tan: fast pace. Hardware does as well. Technology is always changing. (13:26):
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Aaron Tan: We don't want to limit ourselves eventually to just single purpose, single use. (13:31):
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Aaron Tan: It's just so that right now, that is the only feasible way to deploy such a (13:35):
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Aaron Tan: system into the home in the next few years. (13:40):
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Josh: I'm curious how you view the difference between the single use versus humanoid robots. (13:45):
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Josh: If it's an intermediary step or if it's a permanent fixture because (13:49):
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Josh: it feels like the reason we're making so many humanoids is (13:52):
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Josh: just because like the world is built for humans right and it's just very easy to (13:55):
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Josh: integrate something that has the same form as us um and (13:57):
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Josh: these narrow use you'll at least right now as kind of an intermediary step where (14:01):
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Josh: they're just really good at a few things mostly because humanoid robots aren't (14:05):
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Josh: that great and they're kind of they need to tell operation like you mentioned (14:08):
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Josh: before and there's a lot more maintenance required for a complex humanoid robot (14:11):
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Josh: do you view these narrow use robots as an intermediate step to humanoid? (14:14):
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Josh: Or do you think they're like a permanent fixture as we move forward and progress with robots? (14:19):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, yeah. I think more of the latter than the former. And I have so many thoughts on this, actually. (14:24):
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Aaron Tan: But I'll sort of start with one at a time. (14:29):
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Aaron Tan: I think that the way I sort of imagine this, how this plays out is that, (14:33):
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Aaron Tan: you know, like the human noise form factor, obviously, is great. (14:40):
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Aaron Tan: Like, again, like I see so many benefits of it, especially in a factory setting, (14:43):
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Aaron Tan: because there's just so many use cases where it doesn't make sense to sort of (14:47):
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Aaron Tan: have like a single device that handles all. (14:51):
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Aaron Tan: There's always these kind of like last mile type of tasks where you (14:52):
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Aaron Tan: would need an adaptable form factor to be able to handle um but (14:56):
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Aaron Tan: the thing is you know the one analogy that (15:00):
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Aaron Tan: i like to use is that in the best case scenario a humanoid robot let's just (15:03):
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Aaron Tan: like sort of um scale it to the limits let's imagine that they are basically (15:07):
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Aaron Tan: as good as us so they look like us talk like us you know think like us act like (15:12):
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Aaron Tan: us i know there's a future where they're actually better than us but for the (15:16):
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Aaron Tan: sake of this let's just assume that we'll (15:20):
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Josh: Try that line there. (15:22):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah let's draw the line that they cap at exactly like (15:22):
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Aaron Tan: us perfect and and in this world (15:25):
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Aaron Tan: so they become indistinguishable right this is the best case scenario which (15:28):
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Aaron Tan: in my personal opinion will take a few miracles and probably a few decades to (15:31):
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Aaron Tan: get to um but in this world um (15:34):
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Aaron Tan: i personally think that uh a version (15:37):
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Aaron Tan: of that world already exists right now uh and it's like you guys hire cleaners (15:41):
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Aaron Tan: to to sort of enter your home and these are sort of like you know people that (15:45):
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Aaron Tan: you hire to to do labor uh but the thing is like there's this stat that's the (15:49):
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Aaron Tan: surprising stat that i found in estates which is that 70 of people uh (15:54):
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Aaron Tan: If they're able to afford such a help, they still choose not to. (16:00):
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Aaron Tan: And I used to think that it's because people can't afford it. (16:06):
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Aaron Tan: That's why they don't want it. (16:10):
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Aaron Tan: But the truth actually is that 70% of the people who can afford it still don't choose to do it. (16:12):
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Aaron Tan: And the reason quite simply is just that humans are territorial. (16:16):
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Aaron Tan: The home is a private space. There's sort of this trust that you're giving to (16:20):
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Aaron Tan: others when they enter your personal space that a lot of people don't find comfortable with. (16:24):
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Aaron Tan: In fact, I think another surprising stat was that I think it was like a quarter (16:30):
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Aaron Tan: of the people, if they were given free in-home help, they would still reject it for the same reason. (16:36):
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Aaron Tan: So when all that blended in together, at best case scenario, (16:42):
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Aaron Tan: I'm sure that there is a segment of the market that will happily welcome a humanoid into their home. (16:47):
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Aaron Tan: But I'm willing to bet that the majority of the market, at least for the home (16:52):
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Aaron Tan: use case, simply just want tools that they can sort of like control on demand, that they can use. (16:56):
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Aaron Tan: They're still very much the owner of their space and they're not sharing sort (17:03):
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Aaron Tan: of with like a robotic roommate. (17:07):
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Aaron Tan: I mean, that's also one of the reasons why people don't prefer to live with (17:08):
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Aaron Tan: roommates unless it's for companionship. (17:11):
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Aaron Tan: But I don't think that robot companionship is something that's going to happen. (17:14):
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Aaron Tan: It's not a robot thing. I think it's a human thing. (17:18):
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Aaron Tan: So that's sort of like how I see like we're essentially addressing the market (17:22):
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Aaron Tan: that simply just don't want to share their space, whether it be with another (17:26):
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Aaron Tan: human or a pseudo human per se. (17:29):
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Josh: Do you think people are coming around to that idea as robots become more prevalent (17:32):
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Josh: in the world to let them into their spaces? Because I think a lot of people (17:36):
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Josh: in the case of AI, they they have slowly kind of eased their way into it. (17:40):
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Josh: And then there reaches a point. (17:45):
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Josh: I mean, I'm thinking of ChatGPT when I think of this, where they just fully (17:47):
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Josh: unload everything. And now it becomes their therapist, their psychologist, (17:50):
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Josh: their personal assistant, everything. (17:54):
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Josh: It just learns everything about their life. There was some reluctance to get (17:56):
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Josh: to that point, but eventually they've reached that point. (17:58):
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Josh: Do you see a similar thing happening here? Even just with the pre-orders and (18:00):
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Josh: feedback you've gotten from the product, is this something that people are willing (18:04):
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Josh: to put in their homes or does there still need to be more work in terms of safety? (18:07):
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Josh: I mean, if I'm thinking, like I just had a child, let's say, (18:11):
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Josh: and that child's sitting in the bed. (18:14):
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Josh: Well, no, I didn't. I'm just using a rhetorical example. Okay, okay. (18:16):
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Josh: In the case that I did, let's say that I have one just like laying in my bed (18:20):
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Josh: over here and there are two robotic arms sitting there. (18:22):
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Josh: Do I trust that the robotic arms are not going to harm that child in any sort of glitch? (18:25):
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Josh: And do you think people are having trouble getting over that idea? (18:29):
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Josh: Or do you see it just being this natural stepping stone and people are on board and ready to go? (18:32):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the world, the average home has never, (18:38):
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Aaron Tan: I think that even the average person has never even interacted with a robot in their life. (18:43):
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Aaron Tan: I think that this is like a sort of a brand new category of product that will (18:47):
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Aaron Tan: for sure, you know, sort of take some time for people to get used to. (18:51):
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Aaron Tan: I think that you know obviously we're going to have the early adopters that (18:56):
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Aaron Tan: come on and they get super excited about such a thing and the way we're framing (19:00):
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Aaron Tan: our product is that it's both safer and more private (19:04):
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Aaron Tan: than the alternative home robotic solution (19:09):
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Aaron Tan: simply just because you as a resident in the home know at all times where the robot is (19:12):
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Aaron Tan: so for example if you had placed your child on a bed and you had a human or (19:19):
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Aaron Tan: a robot So maybe you cannot fully protect that child from the human robot because (19:24):
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Aaron Tan: the human robot sort of has free will to roam. (19:28):
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Aaron Tan: But because you already know that the robotic arms are there by the bed, (19:30):
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Aaron Tan: which is where you placed it, it's not going to leave. (19:34):
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Aaron Tan: Maybe the question is more so like if you don't trust it, then you probably (19:36):
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Aaron Tan: place your baby somewhere else, you know, because you mentally know that that (19:39):
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Aaron Tan: is like a robotic space, almost part of your home. (19:44):
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Ejaaz: I feel like we're kind of broaching the topic of humans being comfortable around robots. (19:49):
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Ejaaz: And if I'm being honest with you, Aaron, I was kind of a robot hater like a (19:56):
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Ejaaz: couple of months ago because I was like, what are these like random sci-fi things (20:00):
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Ejaaz: that it must be all janky? (20:05):
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Ejaaz: I see videos of them falling over. (20:07):
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Ejaaz: Josh and I actually watched the Robot Olympics that were held in China over the weekend. (20:09):
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Ejaaz: And most of them were kind of like fails and they were super entertaining. (20:12):
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Ejaaz: Um i'm kind of trying to (20:16):
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Ejaaz: figure out whether people are getting more comfortable with (20:19):
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Ejaaz: these robots and kind of like co-living around them right (20:22):
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Ejaaz: how important or real you think this phenomenon is do you think this is just (20:25):
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Ejaaz: kind of like a viral trend i know like you've got a company that's building (20:30):
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Ejaaz: these robots for decades from now but can you help us help our listeners understand (20:33):
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Ejaaz: the pitch of why robots are going to like essentially take over the world over (20:39):
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Ejaaz: the next couple of decades (20:42):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah i mean i i hope (20:43):
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Aaron Tan: they don't take over the world to be honest um i hope that (20:47):
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Aaron Tan: they i hope that they you know make the world a better place i guess i should (20:49):
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Aaron Tan: say i think that robots are at the end of the day a tool and they shouldn't (20:54):
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Aaron Tan: be sort of like autonomous self-thinking beings um that that act on their own (20:57):
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Aaron Tan: behalf with their own interests uh i think that that's (21:04):
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Aaron Tan: going to be a dangerous world um and i (21:08):
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Aaron Tan: don't know if i yeah i personally i don't know if i want to live in a world like that uh (21:11):
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Aaron Tan: for in terms of like sort of (21:15):
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Aaron Tan: like you know getting getting robots into the home again like our main thing (21:18):
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Aaron Tan: is that we want to free people's time like when you think about it it's 24 hours (21:22):
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Aaron Tan: in a day and it's like people sleep for eight hours work for eight hours the (21:26):
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Aaron Tan: remaining eight hours a day probably a good chunk of that is commute or chores (21:29):
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Aaron Tan: or whatever So even if you could just save someone like 30 minutes, an hour, (21:33):
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Aaron Tan: that's like a good percentage of the time in their day, right? (21:36):
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Aaron Tan: That's freed up. And I think that's ultimately a good thing. (21:39):
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Aaron Tan: And I think the way that we sort of, (21:44):
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Aaron Tan: sort of introduce robots into the home is that we have to be very, (21:47):
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Aaron Tan: very intentional with messaging, which is that, and I think this can only be (21:51):
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Aaron Tan: achieved with a single purpose robot to start with, which is that you have to (21:55):
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Aaron Tan: be able to tell people like what it can and cannot do. (21:58):
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Aaron Tan: Don't tell people that's general purpose. Don't tell people that it's a human (22:00):
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Aaron Tan: assistant that you can ask anything of. (22:03):
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Aaron Tan: Just say that, you know, at least for us is that it will fold laundry and this (22:06):
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Aaron Tan: is how you interact with it. You dump the laundry on the bed, you walk away. (22:10):
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Aaron Tan: It can be voice activation. it can be a button like a dishwasher it (22:13):
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Aaron Tan: could be an app that you sort of log into and you you (22:16):
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Aaron Tan: you give a permission to activate um and only (22:19):
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Aaron Tan: when you do that very very clearly and you tell people exactly what the workspace (22:23):
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Aaron Tan: is uh like something that i like is you know from like the vr world you can (22:27):
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Aaron Tan: sort of like draw this boundary around you when you're in the living room and (22:31):
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Aaron Tan: as you're sort of approach the walls it kind of like lights up and you know you know to go back (22:34):
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Aaron Tan: it's like similar concept but for robots in the home like i think (22:40):
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Aaron Tan: robots need to have like a fixed space that people know (22:42):
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Aaron Tan: where it's operating um you should be able (22:45):
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Aaron Tan: to know when it's on and when it's off um and (22:48):
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Aaron Tan: you should know exactly what it can and cannot do uh i think that's how you (22:51):
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Aaron Tan: would be able to manage expectations and that's how you earn trust and that's (22:55):
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Aaron Tan: how i think you'll be able to build like a generation of people that might grow (22:58):
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Aaron Tan: up with one of these lamps uh to have that positive connotation and positive (23:01):
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Aaron Tan: interaction with uh with robotics uh yeah yeah (23:05):
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Ejaaz: You keep referring to this home, which I love. So let's play a game. (23:10):
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Ejaaz: Five to 10 years from now, what (23:16):
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Ejaaz: does the average home look like in a world where home robots are a thing? (23:19):
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Ejaaz: What else are they doing aside from folding clothes? (23:24):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, yeah. So folding laundry is like our wedge into the home just because (23:27):
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Aaron Tan: it's like, and I'm sure you already know this, it's like a very annoying task (23:31):
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Aaron Tan: that people would actually pay money for. (23:35):
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Aaron Tan: Uh and once the the (23:37):
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Aaron Tan: internal saying is you know success to us is a loom in every room (23:41):
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Aaron Tan: um which is that we we see a world where (23:44):
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Aaron Tan: people own multiple of these lamps and depending on where they're placed (23:46):
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Aaron Tan: in the home they'll do whatever task that makes sense in (23:49):
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Aaron Tan: that context so for example a loom that's (23:52):
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Aaron Tan: in the kitchen might be able to help you with meal prepping whereas (23:55):
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Aaron Tan: a loom that's in your you know library might be (23:58):
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Aaron Tan: able to help you with tidying your bookshelf um and (24:01):
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Aaron Tan: and the whole idea is that you kind of (24:04):
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Aaron Tan: have these like limited range and limited pockets of where (24:07):
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Aaron Tan: the robot is um and and (24:10):
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Aaron Tan: yeah it will do whatever sort of we almost (24:14):
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Aaron Tan: wanted to be uh i sort of mentioned the other interview i (24:17):
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Aaron Tan: said that there will be like an app store almost um where (24:19):
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Aaron Tan: you'll be able to download different apps and you know (24:23):
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Aaron Tan: like gift wrapping is an app steaming is an app laundry folding is an (24:25):
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Aaron Tan: app uh meal prepping is an app oh super like (24:28):
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Aaron Tan: sorting of knickknacks around the home whatever is an (24:32):
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Aaron Tan: app and it's all enabled by the same form factor uh we we see this almost like (24:35):
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Aaron Tan: a kind of like the standard almost the default the foundational robot platform (24:40):
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Aaron Tan: uh that exists in every home that you can now go to get chores done or get tasks (24:45):
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Aaron Tan: done maybe it's not necessarily chores (24:50):
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Josh: So if laundry is the wedge, what comes next? What other cool, (24:54):
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Josh: weird things can we expect to come from these arms? (24:58):
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Ejaaz: We're going to keep pushing you on this, Aaron. Come on, give us something. (25:02):
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Aaron Tan: There's like, so the way I see it is there's like almost like three phases. (25:07):
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Aaron Tan: Maybe I'll say this. There's three phases of how we're going to increase the capabilities. (25:11):
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Aaron Tan: And it's all going to revolve around the same sort of form factor. (25:17):
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Aaron Tan: So phase one is is any kind (25:20):
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Aaron Tan: of like sort of inanimate object type manipulation so laundry (25:23):
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Aaron Tan: folding being one but bed making or general sorting (25:26):
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Aaron Tan: meal prepping tidying ironing steaming you know all that kind of just like random (25:30):
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Aaron Tan: stuff around the home you know we want to get really good at this stuff before (25:36):
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Aaron Tan: we move on to the second phase which is what i would call like the non-invasive (25:40):
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Aaron Tan: human contact type applications and those include things like massages therapy rehab (25:43):
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Aaron Tan: things that you could sort of get while you're sitting on the couch or laying (25:50):
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Aaron Tan: in bed. Massages is one big one that people love. (25:54):
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Aaron Tan: So that's something that we're going to go into. (25:57):
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Aaron Tan: But again, anything with human contact, obviously, you want to be a lot more careful. (26:00):
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Aaron Tan: That's why we want to be slow with our rollout to make sure that these arms (26:03):
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Aaron Tan: are stable, they're precise, they're sort of compliant, and they're safe. (26:07):
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Aaron Tan: And then ultimately, we go towards this like phase three, which I want to say (26:11):
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Aaron Tan: is more like an invasive human contact. (26:16):
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Aaron Tan: Where we sort of see this world where (26:19):
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Aaron Tan: You know, here you have these two pairs of robotic arms that's in your home somewhere. (26:22):
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Aaron Tan: And we think that this can open up a world of healthcare applications where (26:28):
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Aaron Tan: doctors can remote into these arms and deliver care right in the comfort of your home. (26:33):
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Aaron Tan: So an example could be like, you know, you cut yourself downstairs, (26:39):
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Aaron Tan: you go upstairs, and now there's these like professional arms with a healthcare app or something. (26:43):
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Aaron Tan: And you can get stitched up immediately while laying in bed or whatever it is (26:47):
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Aaron Tan: without having to drive like two hours just to wait six hours in an emergency (26:52):
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Aaron Tan: room and see a doctor for like two minutes. (26:58):
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Aaron Tan: We think that ultimately, you know, the most scalable way to healthcare is through the home. (27:00):
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Aaron Tan: And to do that is through, I think, robots that have the ability to manipulate (27:06):
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Aaron Tan: soft objects, started with laundry folding, have the ability to be careful and (27:13):
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Aaron Tan: have the ability to have already earned people's trust in homes. (27:17):
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Aaron Tan: So when you ask what the future of home could look like, I almost see a world (27:21):
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Aaron Tan: where there's almost like a, you know, you have like a kitchen, (27:26):
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Aaron Tan: which is like where you go to cook, you have a living room, you have the bedroom, (27:28):
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Aaron Tan: but there should also be almost like a health hub, (27:30):
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Aaron Tan: which probably is going to be doubled on as your bedroom, where you can receive (27:32):
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Aaron Tan: care without having to leave your home. (27:37):
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Aaron Tan: So that's kind of like the full spectrum of potential things that I think can (27:40):
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Aaron Tan: happen without changing the form factor too much. (27:44):
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Josh: Okay, now I want to talk about timelines. And I know these are really hard and fuzzy. (27:47):
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Josh: But you mentioned a bit earlier that humanoid robots that look and feel just (27:50):
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Josh: like humans, that line that we drew, that probably takes decades. (27:55):
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Josh: So this will take less than decades, I'm going to assume. (27:57):
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Josh: And in fact, on the website, it says 2026 by the time we can expect, (28:01):
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Josh: I guess, the first version. (28:04):
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Josh: So what does it look like? I mean, in this category specifically, (28:06):
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Josh: but broadly speaking, how long is it until the average person do you think can (28:09):
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Josh: expect to have a robot inside of their home? (28:12):
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Josh: Is it going to be next year? Is it going to be in the next five years, decade? (28:15):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah. I mean, if you're talking about like mainstream adoption, (28:19):
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Aaron Tan: that's going to take at least a decade, right? (28:22):
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Aaron Tan: I think the last time the home received like a huge sort of like mass tech adoption (28:23):
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Aaron Tan: was in the 50s, where things like the microwave and all these kind of like appliances (28:29):
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Aaron Tan: made like a huge adoption. (28:35):
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Aaron Tan: I think I saw a stat that was like before the 50s, it was like under 30% adoption. (28:37):
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Aaron Tan: After the 50s, it was like above 80% adoption or something like that. (28:41):
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Aaron Tan: But it did take over like that decade. (28:43):
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Aaron Tan: Uh for us uh we will (28:45):
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Aaron Tan: ship our robots uh actually the there's an (28:48):
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Aaron Tan: early beta tester club now and they're going to get there six months from now (28:51):
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Aaron Tan: and these are primarily folks in the bay area that have reached out specifically to (28:53):
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Aaron Tan: me um and we're basically trying going to (28:56):
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Aaron Tan: install i'll personally go to their homes and install these systems (28:59):
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Aaron Tan: for them um in the next six or (29:02):
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Aaron Tan: so months um and the goal is that 12 months from now uh (29:05):
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Aaron Tan: we have a pretty large wait list but we're just basically going to sort of like (29:08):
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Aaron Tan: get people off of that main wait list starting 12 months from now at a sort (29:13):
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Aaron Tan: of a slow pace probably geographically closer to the bay area first um and then (29:18):
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Aaron Tan: expand uh sort of nationwide from there that's (29:22):
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Josh: Exciting so now i want to ask how practical is it (29:27):
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Josh: are they going to look like the arms in this video because i'm assuming that (29:29):
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Josh: was a rendering right and you guys are building and designing and i know a lot (29:32):
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Josh: of times to create the actual thing in a factory is a lot harder than designing (29:35):
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Josh: the pixels on a screen so what does the process look like to actually make it (29:39):
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Josh: look as elegant as the lamps that you showed in the rendering? (29:42):
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Josh: And do you feel confident about your ability to get there? (29:45):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, yeah. So those renderings are designed by our engineers. (29:48):
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Aaron Tan: And so they're not, I don't know if I mentioned this earlier, (29:52):
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Aaron Tan: some people thought that they were like AI generated videos, (29:55):
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Aaron Tan: but I always say I wish it was AI generated so I didn't have to pay so much money for it. (29:57):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, I'm sure. Money was spent, it was beautiful. (30:01):
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Aaron Tan: But yes, thank you. It will get pretty close to it. I have like a segment of the arm here. (30:04):
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Aaron Tan: And this is spec to sort of the actual width of the shaft. (30:12):
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Aaron Tan: So that's how it will be um these are like sort of the lampids and these are actually the robotic (30:18):
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Aaron Tan: um yeah so it will be uh roughly that (30:25):
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Aaron Tan: it might be a little bit shorter um and the (30:29):
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Aaron Tan: claws i think i don't want to call them claws because it might scare people (30:32):
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Aaron Tan: but uh the artists um i didn't (30:35):
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Aaron Tan: it was my fault because i didn't catch it the the claws look a bit metallic (30:38):
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Aaron Tan: uh in the video uh but they're not meant to be metallic they're supposed to (30:41):
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Aaron Tan: be like rubberish um so some people i pointed that out saying they look almost (30:45):
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Aaron Tan: like surgical tools i'm like in phase three they'll start looking a little bit (30:49):
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Aaron Tan: more like surgical tools but not right now i (30:54):
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Josh: Admire the fact that you are making the home look different for the first time (30:56):
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Josh: in 50 years i think a lot of the stagnation has happened in this where we talk (30:59):
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Josh: about this a lot in the world of of atoms where just if you if i go into my (31:03):
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Josh: grandmother's house it hasn't changed in 50 years but it doesn't look like it (31:07):
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Josh: doesn't belong in this century, (31:10):
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Josh: aside from like maybe the plastic on the couch and like some outdated ornamentaries. (31:12):
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Josh: But in terms of technology, I mean, there's a TV on the wall, (31:15):
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Josh: there's a microwave in the kitchen. (31:18):
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Josh: It's all relatively the same. And I think a huge part that moves us forward (31:19):
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Josh: into this future looking like the future is robots. (31:23):
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Josh: And a big part of that is robots in our home. It's making us feel more comfortable (31:26):
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Josh: with them around. It's making them beautiful, but functional. (31:29):
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Josh: And they're there to serve a purpose and to just kind of enhance everyone's life. (31:33):
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Josh: So I really admire you for trying to tackle this problem, for doing it in a (31:39):
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Josh: way that looks so great, for hopefully shipping these out the door very soon. (31:43):
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Josh: Is there anything other parting words you want to share? How people can get (31:46):
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Josh: access to them, get on the pre-order line, what they can expect? (31:49):
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Aaron Tan: Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, just a little bit on that point. (31:53):
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Aaron Tan: I think somebody mentioned to me very recently, he's like, you know, (31:56):
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Aaron Tan: the only new device between my house and my grandma's house is an air fryer. (31:59):
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Aaron Tan: That was like the latest breakthrough in the home, which I thought was kind (32:05):
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Aaron Tan: of funny because like you said, TVs existed, refrigerators existed and all these other things. (32:10):
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Aaron Tan: So, yeah, so we're hopefully we're we're hopefully, you know, (32:14):
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Aaron Tan: entering into a new era where home robotics will make the next big paradigm (32:18):
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Aaron Tan: shift in the home. And we want to be a part of that. (32:23):
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Aaron Tan: And we want to do that in a way that makes people feel comfortable. (32:26):
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Aaron Tan: We want to do that in a way where it makes your at least your home still looking (32:29):
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Aaron Tan: like a, you know, like a home and beautiful and all that kind of stuff. (32:32):
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Aaron Tan: So. So, yeah, happy to happy to be on on the pod today. (32:37):
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Aaron Tan: If anybody listening is interested you can check us out at Sincere AI on X on (32:42):
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Aaron Tan: Twitter that's where we typically post our updates Alright, (32:49):
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Ejaaz: Well this has been super exciting, I feel like we're at like an iPhone moment, (32:54):
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Ejaaz: I know you haven't released the product yet but we're getting there, (32:59):
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Ejaaz: this is the first robot, as Josh said, kind of like that appealed to me and (33:02):
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Ejaaz: that I would willingly have in my home and that I think my girlfriend would (33:06):
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Ejaaz: be chill about having in my home as well versus some six foot five humanoid robot. (33:08):
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Ejaaz: It sounds like these robots aren't just going to be used for practicality, (33:13):
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Ejaaz: so chores around the house, but also potentially leisure in the form of massages (33:19):
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Ejaaz: and also vital health care in the form of like doctor-like work that they can remotely access. (33:24):
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Ejaaz: So all around, this has been a super cool conversation. (33:29):
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Ejaaz: And Aaron, thank you so much for coming on. For the listeners, (33:32):
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Ejaaz: if you enjoyed this, please like, subscribe and share it with all your friends. (33:36):
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Ejaaz: And we'll see you on the next one. (33:39):
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Josh: Awesome. See you guys. (33:42):
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Aaron Tan: Thank you. Bye-bye. (33:43):
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Music: Music (33:46):
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