513. Combating Pornography In Church With Nick Stumbo

Episode Transcript
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Okay, so today, guys, we'regoing to be talking about a
topic that is taboo often andshame on us for making it taboo,
but it has to do with aroundsexuality, pornography.
How do we address that?
How does the church not addressthat?
Rather, because the churchdoesn't do anything about it
most of the time, and to havethis conversation we brought in

(01:31):
Nick Stumbo.
Now he is the executivedirector for Pure Desire.
So this ministry is all focusedon sexual integrity and they
equip men, women, students,youth, churches with resources
and structured groups to bringhope and healing from the

(01:52):
effects of the sexual brokennessthat's in this world.
It's just everywhere, rightFrom addiction to betrayal to
even more.
He was a senior pastor for morethan a decade and he saw this in
his own life.
I mean, he saw it definitely inthe people in and around him.
But also he shared some verypersonal details around he and
his wife Michelle, and how theyfound hope and healing through

(02:14):
the ministries of pure desireand to the point you know, he
went full disclosure to hischurch.
It led to a revival offorgiveness and healing like no
other, and from there now he'swith Pure Desire as the
executive director and he's justdoing some incredible things.
He's got four kids.
We talked about that.

(02:34):
We talked about so many things.
This is a genuine conversation.
This is an authenticconversation.
For sure, if you have teenagersin your home, this may be a
conversation that you want toinvite them into, to listen to
this together, to let them hearabout the different ways and
resources and tools to equip youas a family to combat the lies

(02:58):
of the evil one, to put light onthe dark topic of pornography
and hopefully equip you to atleast lead better and more
effectively in this area.
So, hopefully you enjoyed thisconversation with my friend Nick
Stumbo.
Welcome to the Lion Within Us.
How are you doing today, sir?

Nick Stumbo (03:19):
Doing well.
Thanks for having me for thisconversation.

Oh, I'm so excited to have you here with us
and, before we dive into toodeep, share with us something
fun about you that maybe notmany people know about.

Well, I mean, not many people publicly might know,
but if they know me as a person, they know I'm a big Minnesota
Twins fan.

Yeah, okay.

When I was a little kid, my parents would go to
Minnesota on vacations and wewent into the Metrodome in the
80s back when they had KirbyPuckett and Kent Herbeck and the
announcer would, when KirbyPuckett came up, had this big
you know Kirby Puckett and theplace would go wild.
I was from a small town incentral Wyoming and when I saw

(04:01):
50,000 people, you know, gocrazy for a baseball game, I
became a huge fan and have beenever since.
So I have a lot of hard days inthe summer because the twins
haven't won a whole lot ofplayoff games in the last 20
years.
So yeah, that's a big part ofmy sports world is being a twins
fan.

Well, I mean, you did have to bring up the one
sore spot for me, because I'm aBraves fan and Kirby Puckett
man.
He was the dagger to us growingup as a Braves fan.
So, man, what a cool experiencethat probably was going to that
stadium.

Well, you guys have had a couple of World Series
wins since then, and the Twinshave been on what would that be
now?
A 33-year drought.
So, yeah, you got your payback.
So, yeah, yeah, you got you gotyour payback.

It was always.
I always thought as a kidgrowing up, watching them play
in that stadium, man, that was,that was something special,
because it was just.
I always seemed like it wasextra loud and then the way the
balls bounced and it was just,it was crazy just watching them
play the game there.

Yeah Well, they basically played on like a
carpet.
That you know, now that they'vegot all that great AstroTurf,
now that's supposed to mimic thelook and feel of grass and they
, you know they didn't do thatin the nineties.
It was just like a hard carpetand sometimes those singles
would bounce over theoutfielder's head and it would
turn into a triple.
And yeah, those were someunique days when they played in
the Metrodome.

No kidding.
No kidding, well, that's great,great story, great insight.

A no kidding, well, that's great, great story,
great insight, a good fun fact,and maybe just unpack a little
bit about you and your story forour listeners out there who
don't know you and what you guysdo at Pure Desire.
But I know you have a veryimpactful story, definitely lots
to share here.
And I just to say that myexperience, I think, was fairly
typical from what I've heardfrom so many men that I
experienced sexual things at ayoung age.
While being at a friend's house, his parents were watching a
movie that had some prettygraphic sexual content and at
that point in my life I hadnever seen anything like that.

(06:02):
But I knew two things rightaway I knew that it was bad and
that I wanted to see more, andthat created this very secret
and shameful response.
A secret in that I didn't thinkI could tell my mom and dad
because they'd be mad and mightnot let me go to that friend's
house anymore.
And yet shame that there wassomething in me that was curious
, had been awakened and wantedmore, and I thought I wasn't

(06:24):
supposed to like those kinds ofthings.
And so my introduction tosexuality was very secretive and
shameful and that played intomy teenage years when I
discovered pornographicmagazines.
And then, you know, the latenineties, the internet became a
thing and you found those sameimages were available online and
they were free.
And in my story, being from aChristian home and having a

(06:47):
sincere faith, it was alwaysthis binge purge kind of
relationship that every time wasthe last time I got that out of
my system.
I was just curious, it'll neverhappen again.
And then another a week later,or a month later, or maybe in a
really good stretch, I would goa couple of months and then I
would go back into viewingpornography and acting out with

(07:07):
masturbation and just reallyfeeling that cycle of intense
guilt and shame.
And I would take that all inconfession to God and oftentimes
to other people and believethat.
Okay, now I've confessed it.
Well enough, I've got it outthere, I'm good to go, and yet I
would find myself stumblingback over and over, and that was

(07:27):
really a pattern that repeateditself into adulthood, into my
marriage even though I had awonderful marriage to a godly
woman and into my ministry.
I had been trained for pastoralministry, went into church
ministry at 22 years old as anassociate pastor and at 25
became the senior pastor, and inmy story at that age, you know,

(07:51):
being such a young lead pastorI felt the pressure of now I
need to be the guy, I need to bethe most spiritual person in
the room, and I can'tacknowledge this struggle in my
life because that wouldinvalidate me being the senior
pastor.
And so the only safe person tocontinue telling was my wife,
who already knew about thestruggle, and I had been honest
with her, you know, to a degreethroughout our marriage, where I
would come back and say youknow, hey, I'm sorry this has

(08:14):
happened again.
I'm trying really hard though,and here's why this is the last
time.
It'll never happen again, Ipromise, and after 10 years of
that in our marriage, for mywife carrying that burden of my
secrets and seeing that itwasn't changing in the way it
was causing her tremendous painand feeling like she couldn't
trust me and it was never goingto stop, our marriage was really

(08:36):
at a breaking point.
And if our marriage was at abreaking point then ministry and
being the pastor would be aswell, because typically if the
pastor's wife leaves him becausehe's using pornography, he
doesn't get to be the pastormuch longer.
That's right, and so reallyeverything was hanging in the

(08:58):
balance for us.
My wife and I discovered for thefirst time Pure Desire
Ministries and their approach tocounseling and having a very
biblical approach and yet alsounderstanding a lot about the
science of addiction, okay, whatwas happening in our brain and
how.
All of that was deeplyspiritual, and we went through a
process of a year of counselingand both of us being in groups

(09:20):
myself for the ones whostruggled and my wife a spouse's
group for their own care andsupport and it was really a
transforming journey in ourmarriage and in my own behaviors
, learning things about myselfand why I did what I didn't want
to do.
That I'd really just never beenable to understand before, and
it created a whole new patternof health and recovery in my

(09:42):
life and in our marriage thatultimately, we shared with our
church.
So on a Sunday morning in 2011,as I was preaching on Romans,
chapter 7, and you know thatgreat passage where the Apostle
Paul wrestles with saying why doI do the very thing I hate?
Why do I do what I don't wantto do?
You know what a wretched man Iam, but thanks be to God who
always leads us in victory, injoyful procession through God.

(10:06):
And saying in that sermon that Ithink I can bring a unique
perspective to this passagetoday, because for 15 years in
my life I've struggled with anaddiction to pornography and I
got to share about our healingjourney.
I got to talk about what my wifeand I were experiencing, about
how the elders had supported usto find healing, and then I got

(10:26):
to invite men and women in ourchurch into a similar healing
experience, as we launchedgroups for men and women, and
that really became a definingmoment in our church.
It changed the trajectory of howwe did ministry, how we did
discipleship, and it opened thedoor for other men and women to
say me too right, because asenior pastor can say I've had

(10:48):
this issue and, by God's grace,I'm finding healing and they
didn't get rid of me, theydidn't kick me out.
Then people in the church seethis really is safe to talk
about and we watched this reallybecome the most significant
discipleship ministry in ourchurch because it is so common,
so many people are struggling,and we finally had a strategy,

(11:09):
we had a solution to say here isa pathway to freedom, and it
really revolutionized, I think,ministry in our church and then
really because of that, I stayedconnected to Pure Desire
Ministries.
I would speak at an event withthem now and then, and through
that, ended up becoming theexecutive director of the
ministry in 2016.

(11:30):
And so I tell people I lefttraditional ministry for
non-traditional ministry, but Ifeel like I'm still a pastor,
just pastoring men and women whoare in recovery of their own
sexual brokenness and learninghow to invite Christ into some
very deep places of trauma andwoundedness and then to find
healing and really find freedomfrom this destructive behavior.

(11:51):
So, for the last eight yearsthat's been my ministry to be a
part of Pure Desire and using mystory and what God has kind of
created as the core principlesof our ministry to help other
men and women heal and findlasting freedom.

We definitely want to unpack that a whole lot
further.
Nick, I kind of want to go backas well.
You mentioned godly home.
Obviously you got to introducethat at a sleepover.
Things happen, they escalate.
You went to seminary and youdid the biblical training there
to prepare you for the pastoralpath that you're on now.

(12:28):
I'm curious in your seminarytraining, were there ever any
courses or topics or papers orjust conversations around?
You know pornography and theimpact on the church as part of
your formal training?

That is a great question, chris, and the answer
is no, there really wasn't.
There wasn't a class, therewasn't instruction offered.
I remember in a ethics class Ichose to write a paper on the
impact of pornography in ourculture, in the world, and,
maybe because it was on my heart, I knew I didn't want it in my
life.
I wanted freedom and I saw whatit did in our world.

(13:07):
And maybe because it was on myheart, I knew I didn't want it
in my life.
I wanted freedom and I saw whatit did in our world, and so I
wrote about it.
But from an educational level,a care level, there was nothing
intentional that was done.
I do like to tell the story thatin college, as I'm preparing
for ministry, I developed aaccountability group with three
other guys that were on asimilar pathway and we would
meet weekly for prayer foraccountability.

(13:27):
But we didn't have any tools orresources.
We only knew to ask thequestions that come up in a lot
of men's accountability Did youlook at anything inappropriate
this week?
Did you lie to anyone, did youmasturbate?
And we became comfortableasking those questions of one
another and what I found is wealso became answering in the
negative that if we'd had arough week, man, it was great to

(13:49):
have a safe place to share, butwithout any tools or resources
to really change.
It almost became enabling tosay, man, I've got these three
men that they know my secrets,they pray for me and, yeah, I'm
still struggling, but I'mworking, I'm trying really hard.
I've got men that know.
Because that was kind of theparadigm the church handed us
was tell the truth, confess toother men, have accountability

(14:12):
and you'll be free.
And we had that.
We had it in a very beautiful,meaning way, beautifully
meaningful way, and I continuedto struggle, and so that was
really the only thing I had inBible college and seminary was a
form of accountability, butwithout any deeper understanding
of why I was doing what I didand tools to actually change.

(14:32):
I found that it really becamejust a kind of performance group
where I tried to perform goodso I could say, yes, I've had a
great week, and then I feltreally guilty when I'd had a bad
week.
But they were all in that samekind of pattern too, and so it
was a bit like the blind leadingthe blind.
Um, and you just keep hopinglike, okay, maybe this time
it'll work, maybe this timeit'll, it'll really set in and

(14:54):
I'll.
I'll not go back, um, but likeI said, I was.
I was so blind to what washappening under the surface in
my life that that context ofjust having honesty and
accountability really wasn'tenough to create change.

And you were in.
Let me get the dates right.
What years were you in seminary?
Was it early 2000s?

1996 to 2001 was my undergrad, my Bible college,
and then I did seminary a littlelater, while I was in ministry
Gotcha.

Gotcha.
So I'm curious, looking at thelandscape now and you may not
know, but has it shifted?
Have they put more intentionalfocus in the seminary teaching
around pornography, around howto address it from the church
position?
You know, if a man, youprobably, I'm sure you're aware
of all the statistics that womenare consuming it at alarming

(15:46):
rates now as well, so it's notjust a guy thing.
But has anything changed on thecurriculums and the teachings
from the formal standpoint ofthe seminaries?

From what I hear, chris, it really hasn't.
I'm not aware of studies oranything in particular where
that could be proved true, butin terms of the men and pastors
I hear from and the women thatwe hear from Bible colleges and
seminaries, still don't reallyknow how to address this.
I think sometimes it's a littlebit of a game of pass the buck

(16:18):
that they want it to beaddressed at the dorm floors,
you know kind of the residentialstudent level, but at that
level they want it to be achapel or the chaplain's kind of
job and the chaplain wants itto be student affairs or student
development.
Everybody wants to do something, but I think on the college
campus there really is a lack ofownership to say we need to

(16:39):
make this an integral part oftraining and developing young
men and women for health.
You know we do it in so manyother areas.
We try to develop people forrelational health and financial
health, obviously, spiritualhealth, but there is still
little to nothing onunderstanding our sexuality from
a biblical worldview,understanding the nature of
addiction and the process ofwhat's happening in the brain

(16:59):
with all the chemicals that areinvolved in our sexuality, and
so it just gets left.
What I perceive is thatseminaries encourage young men
and women to deal with it.
They hope something ishappening, but other than a few
pockets, there's very littlebeing done institutionally for
colleges and universities to saywe are going to make sure that

(17:22):
we in every way possible equipour future leaders, our future
pastors and missionaries forhealth in this area.
And I think it's a greatquestion because I believe when
colleges and seminaries makethat turn to see, it is our
responsibility to help train menand women in this area.
Just as much as we train themin Bible and theology and

(17:42):
preaching, we need to train themin sexual health.
I think when that turn happenswe'll see a real difference,
because it is in my opinion Idon't know if you would agree, I
think a lot of listeners wouldI think this is the number one
issue that takes people out oflifelong ministry.
It's the reason many men do notfinish well or don't stay in
ministry because they aren'table to address.

(18:04):
Just like in my story, therereally wasn't a safe way to
address my sexual brokenness andso, without a safe place or way
to address it, we justinternalize it.
We try to you know, try hard ornot to and do our best to deal
with it, but we're dealing withit in isolation.
And so then we see all thestories that are happening
around us when these superwell-known pastors and leaders

(18:26):
are falling and being disgracedand removed from ministry, and I
always look at those storiesand say, you know, that is not
where their story started, thisstory in their life.
You know, it didn't start withthe affair, it didn't start with
the abuse, it didn't start withwhatever it is that ruins their
ministry.
It probably started 20, 30, 40,50 years ago with unaddressed
patterns of sexuality, likepornography and lust and fantasy

(18:49):
, and without a safe place toacknowledge.
I am a pastor and I'm also ahuman being with sexual desires
that I haven't figured out yet.
Right, they just kept going andit got deeper and worse until
it ultimately derails an entirecareer.
And so that's where I go backand say if colleges and
seminaries could take seriousthat that we are the right

(19:10):
training ground to help men andwomen in this area, man, I just
think it would be a real gamechanger.

Amen to that, amen.
Hey guys, we're going to takeour first break.
We'll come back.
We'll keep digging in.
I don't know about you, but Iused to find Mondays really
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(19:40):
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Nick, I'm super curious becausefrom when I hear that man like I
have an engineering background.
Ok, so I graduated in 03 fromOld Dominion, and if I were to

(21:10):
go back to ODU right now and andthey're teaching the same
curriculum without you know,with the advancements of
technology that has happenedover the last 20 years, and it
almost equated to like if I wereto take an electrical
engineering program back when Itook it and all we did was
analog, we didn't do any digitalclasses.
Like we're missing the boat.

(21:32):
It's to me it seems such aclear miss here of like this is
your pastor's going to deal withit?
The congregation is dealingwith it?
I think stats are what.
Like 75% of the congregationsis looking or using some form of
pornography.
I mean, it's crazy.

It's 75% of men and 44% of women in the church, so
a total of 54% of men and womenin the church say this is an
ongoing issue in my life.

Right.
So over half the people sittingin every congregation from the
pulpit looking out like how canwe expect those men standing
there to be able to address thatfrom a biblical worldview, the
way that we know that thecontext is going to be such a
big deal, the impact on thefamilies and individuals if they

(22:17):
don't have formal training?
To me it's like engineeringschool not teaching digital
electronics.
I'm just, I'm baffled thatthat's still a myth engineering
school not teaching digitalelectronics.

I'm just I'm baffled that that's still a mess
.
Well, I think what we're seeingis really the overflow of how
this topic has been treated inthe church really in the last
number of decades.
This, in my opinion, is thetaboo topic, and I still
experience a lot of that inchurches, where people say my
church just does not talk aboutthis Other than to say that sex
is for marriage and everythingelse is bad.

(22:45):
We don't talk about it.
And at the same time, most ofus grew up in homes even if they
were very good Christian homeslike mine, where we really don't
talk about it at home.
You know, when I do conferences, I will ask people how many of
you grew up in a home wheresexuality was talked about in an
open, positive way, more thanjust maybe getting the birds and

(23:06):
the bees talk or being toldthat sex is for marriage and
save it for marriage, androutinely it's less than 1% of
people raise their hand and sayyes, we talked about this in my
home.
So most of us grew up in homesthat didn't talk about it.
We go to churches that don'ttalk about it and then we attend
seminaries and Bible collegesthat don't really know how to
address it and it just kind ofbecomes this big unaddressed

(23:28):
elephant in the room, where weknow we are all sexual beings,
we know everyone to some degreeis dealing with brokenness in
this area because we're allsinners and we're all living in
a sinful world and yet wehaven't been trained how to have
conversations, how to talkabout it without having
incredible shame or, you know,inappropriate.

(23:49):
Maybe we've had bad examples.
When people do talk about it,it's like they go too detailed
and too specific and it's thewrong audience.
And we've we've heard thosehorror stories and so we we
swing the pendulum the other wayand go well, you know, we're
just not going to talk about it.
And it's really evidenced inthis survey that we did with the
Barna group.
They asked people, you know,where do you feel safe or where

(24:11):
can you go to talk aboutsexuality, to talk about
struggles with pornography, andthe number one answer by far was
a counselor, which is great.
I mean, counselors have avaluable role and here at Pure
Desire, we have 15 counselors onour team that help people all
over the world.
But if you think about thecounseling environment, I go

(24:32):
privately to a trainedprofessional who is being paid
to hear me talk about my issuesand give me advice and help, and
then I leave that private, hugeconfidentiality, hipaa law,
like no one knows anything.
I go back to my normal worldwhere no one else might know
anything about what I'm dealingwith.

(24:52):
But that's our number oneanswer and I've tried to really
encourage leaders, pastors, tosee.
If all we do is encourage people, go talk to a counselor, we may
inadvertently be increasing thefeel of isolation and secrecy
Because we say we don't know howto deal with this here.
This issue is too big and toomessy for us, so go talk to that

(25:15):
private counselor, get betterand come back and don't talk
about it when you are better.
And that's just not working.
People might receive a level ofcare and help from a counselor.
I hope they do.
But there's also a lot ofstories of really bad counsel
that's out there, even fromChristian counselors.
But if all we're doing isdealing with it in a very
private, secretive way, thenit's actually continuing that

(25:37):
whole problem of this being avery secretive, taboo topic,
taboo topic.
And that's what I'm sopassionate about and what I
think Pure Desire is here to dois to try to help the church see
that we can have theseconversations, we can have them
in a safe way, we can have themin a very biblical way and we
can have them in a way thatencourages men and women to lean
into community and not justtell them you know, go home and

(25:59):
try harder to live.
Live pure by yourself, you knowRight.

I'll tell you another topic, nick, and I'm
sure you're all over it too.
Outside of just pornography,now you have the whole LGBTQ
plus agenda that we have got tofigure out a way somehow to stop
worrying about stepping on toesand let's just have some real,
authentic, obviously grace fieldbut conversations to help
people parents dealing with thisand individuals dealing with

(26:27):
this as well.
And all of this is just thewhole sexual sin.
The snowball just gets bigger.
It's not slowing down.
And we have to figure out wayswithin our church environments
or communities to be able tohave these conversations.
Because, you're right, acounselor is great at your two
o'clock on Tuesday appointmentfor 60 minutes.
But outside of that 60 minutesthere's a lot of life that

(26:51):
happens, nick.
And for me, that's where thepower of community comes in, and
it sounds like with Pure Desire.

This is what you guys are leaning into pretty
hard the secrecy that peoplefeel around this topic is really
what perpetuates the behavior.
Because even if we've learned,you know the church says James
chapter five confess your sinsone to another and you will be
healed.
And I absolutely believe thetruth of that verse, but I've

(27:18):
seen it too often be taught asthe end goal Like if you would
just confess your sin to someone, you're going to be healed and
you'll be able to walk infreedom.
When the truth is, confessionreally needs to be the starting
point, not the ending point.
You know, if you look at theoriginal language in James 5,
that verb there, confess, isactually the Greek ongoing sense
, where it should be confessing,and this idea of confessing

(27:42):
your sins one to another in anongoing way.
And so I think James is tryingto present.
We're meant to live in kind ofthis open, authentic way in
community, and that doesn't meanI'm always careful to say that
doesn't mean that everybodyneeds to know all of our stuff
all the time.
That wouldn't be appropriate orsafe.
But it does mean we need tohave places where there are

(28:04):
people that know everythingthat's going on and why I
started this.
I think what we've been taughtin confession is just to go to
someone and say, man, I'vestruggled with pornography this
week and would you pray for me?
Well, that's honest.
But to say I struggled withpornography is only like the tip
of the iceberg.
Sure, there's all thesequestions that need to be

(28:26):
addressed of why did you gothere, what was going on in your
emotional state that led you tothat, what was happening in the
rest of your life where youwere maybe using pornography as
a way to deal with thoseemotions or some pain in life?
And it wasn't even really aboutthe pornography or the sexual
thing that you were drawn to.
It was all this stuff happeningunderneath the surface.
What kind of pornography wereyou drawn to?

(28:48):
How long did you look at it?
What sites did you visit?
There are some details therethat in a safe, intentional
group process, when we're ableto share to that level with a
group and really dig into thedetails of our story the AA
groups have used that phrase fora long time that the devil is
in the details, and I thinkthere's so much truth to that

(29:08):
that our story of sexualbrokenness is really in the
details of our story, and what Ifind for men and women coming
into pure desire groups is thereare so many pieces of their
story that they have neverreally told anyone, even if
they've confessed to others.
They've said, hey, I strugglein this area.
They haven't gone down to thatdetail level to actually find
the help and traction that theyneed to understand those.

(29:31):
Why?
Questions of why do I do what Idon't want to do?
And so I try to encourage againleaders, pastors and churches
to think about it that way.
When we talk about confession,we have to make sure that we
don't keep it as this broad kindof confess hey, we're all
struggling kind of idea, butthat we really create healthy
environments where men and womencan go and they can dig into

(29:52):
the nitty gritty of their storyand as they do, they have other
men or other women who aresitting around them that don't
reject them or shame them orreact in horror and go oh my
gosh, how could you do that?
What's wrong with you?
Because that's actually thefear that we hold when we
haven't told some of the detailsof our story.

(30:12):
There is the shame message andI have found it is so universal
I think it's the enemy's one ofhis master strategies is there's
a little piece of our story,the way we struggle, something,
we did something that to usfeels particularly shameful.
And the enemy says if you evershare that part of your story,
you will not be loved, you willnot be accepted, you will not be
wanted, they will want to getrid of you so fast.

(30:34):
And that is actually what keepsus from real community and real
relationship, because we haveto keep everyone at arm's length
to keep that part of our storysafe, because we have to keep
everyone at arm's length to keepthat part of our story safe.
But when we're an intentionalcommunity and we can share to
that level and we maybe say outloud something that we've never
told anyone else, and ratherthan getting rejected or shamed

(30:55):
or kicked out of the group,people say wow, thank you for
sharing.
I can relate to that.
I understand what you're goingthrough.
I've been there.
I see that the pain and hurtthat you're experiencing you're
going through.
I've been there.
I see that the pain and hurtthat you're experiencing, you're
not alone.
Suddenly, our greatest darknessbecomes a place where the light
of Christ can shine and realgrace can be felt in a way that

(31:15):
leads to transformation.
But if we don't go to thatnitty gritty level, if we don't
get into those details, we'llnever experience the kind of
healing and grace that we needin that part of our story.
So, all that to say, confessionis absolutely key and we have
to go deeper than most peoplehave thought when it comes to
confession, which underscoresthe need for groups, for a

(31:38):
community where we can reallyget to that level of honesty.

Amen to that, brother.
Amen, guys, we're going to takea quick break and we're going
to keep digging in here withNick.
When I reflect on the kind ofthings that the men who
participated in our discipleshipmasterminds had in the past, I
am overwhelmed by the quality oftheir comments and commitment
to each other.
Several of the guys commentedthat this was the most

(32:06):
meaningful leadership experiencethey've encountered, and we
even had one man log into adiscipleship mastermind while a
hurricane was hitting his house.
He was that committed andreceived that much from his peer
group that he didn't want tomiss it.
Because of this extraordinarycommitment and because it's a
true gift and pleasure, we madethem a core part of our

(32:29):
community and we hope you mightjoin us.
We sit up men with their ownpeer advisory group of seven
individuals that meet everyother week for 12 weeks.
Each member shares areas theywant to focus on, such as
improving their prayer life,being more intentional with
their wives or maybe shedding afew extra pounds Together.

(32:54):
We help them strategize, makecommitments, find accountability
and learn.
It's been our experience thatmost guys want a community of
trustworthy men to share theirideas and create support for
each other with, and it's beenour experience that most men
don't either create this forthemselves or seek them out.

(33:14):
So we do this because we wantyou to have that in your life,
and all that is needed to beginwinning is you.
If this sounds interesting,check out our community to see
the dates and times of whenthese different groups meet.
Visit thelionwithinus to startyour free trial of our community

(33:38):
.
To get started today, that'sthelionwithinus, and I would
love to see you lean in and tapinto the power of our
discipleship masterminds.
So, nick, I'm very curious.
Kind of going back to youroriginal story, you said
something that struck me, I may.

(33:59):
I made a note.
I know I was gonna circle backto it, so now's the time, okay,
so let's, let's, let's dig.
Sounds good.
You mentioned something that II personally talked to many guys
who struggle with thisparticular dynamic, and you said
that your wife was youraccountability partner, and that
struck me as extremelyinteresting.
So I'd love for you to unpack,because there's lots of guys

(34:21):
that I talked to that they'rehiding this thing in the dark
man, and I keep telling them youhide it in the dark, the
devil's going to kick your buttLike.
At some points you got to getthis stuff out into the light.
But I'm curious like what didthat journey look like for you
and her?
You know how did you guysnavigate that together?
What encouragement would yougive a guy listening now who's
looking at porn, who's trying tokeep it suppressed?

(34:41):
His spouse doesn't know aboutit?
I'd love for you to just unpackthis, because this may be very
encouraging for somebody.

In some ways, the openness I had with my wife is
just a byproduct of our story.
When we were in Bible collegetogether, we heard a chapel
speaker that encouraged usbefore you got married, that you
should tell your spouse yourhistory because they deserved.
When they stood at the altarand said I do that they should
know what they were saying.
I do too, and that made senseto me.

(35:10):
I didn't want it to be a secretthat I took into marriage and
so on a date night that week Ishared with her as best as I
could kind of my sexual history,my struggles with pornography,
and I remember her asking methat night when I shared she
said well, why don't you justpromise me that you'll never do
those things again?
And I said to her I really wantto make that promise, but I

(35:31):
feel like I've made that promiseto God, to myself and others
many times before and it has away of coming back and so I'm
going to try really hard and Ihope it never happens.
But I don't think I can makethat promise.
And I hope it never happens,but I don't think I can make
that promise.
And I said those words as a21-year-old, sincere young man
who was clearly marrying up.
I was marrying this beautifulwoman like the woman of my

(35:52):
dreams and I was acknowledgingthere was a behavior in my life.
I didn't know if I actually hadthe ability to stop and I was
using the language of addictionwithout even knowing it, because
I had seen I was doingeverything I knew to do and it
was still happening.
Well, because of that level ofhonesty and engagement, I felt
the integrity piece that in ourfirst year of marriage, when I

(36:12):
did go back and look atpornography again, I had to come
and tell her because she knewand I said, hey, it happened
again.
I'm so sorry and we createdsome boundaries.
And then it happened again.
And that was the first 10 yearsof our marriage where she was
trying to help.
We were doing what we knew howto do to have some filters on
our phones and not watch certainkind of shows and just the kind

(36:34):
of healthy stuff we all shoulddo.
But I didn't know any more todo than keep trying harder to
change and when it wasn'tchanging, that was really
destroying the fabric of ourmarriage.
Her to change and when itwasn't changing, that was really
destroying the fabric of ourmarriage.
And so I tell guys, this is anarea where your wife should not
be your primary accountabilitypartner, because I watched for
10 years how that burden reallydestroyed my wife and nearly

(36:56):
ended our marriage, because shewas really the only one that
knew.
And while I could go to othermen when I felt comfortable
asking for accountability, I hadthat freedom to share my secret
when I felt comfortable to.
She didn't have that samefreedom because it was my secret
, so she didn't want to tell herfamily and make them think less
of me.
She didn't want to tell myfamily and cause problems there.

(37:18):
She didn't want to tell ourchurch because I was the pastor.
So she was trapped holding allof this and it really wasn't
healthy.
I needed a group, I neededother men that knew everything,
that were holding my feet to thefire.
And yes, there are things thatin recovery we need to be able
to tell our wife so that theyhave confidence that we are
doing the right thing, thatwe're being men of integrity.

(37:40):
But if your wife is the onlyone who knows, you're actually
trapping her in an unhealthyplace.
I've often said to men if she'syour accountability partner,
she's becoming your mother oryour police officer and she
doesn't need to be either ofthose.
She needs to be your wife atPure Desire.

(38:05):
We help husbands and wivesunderstand a better way that
they do some self-reporting.
They create that trust and thataccountability, but not in a
way where the wife feels likeshe's looking over his shoulder,
saying what are you doing andcan I trust you?
Because if that's where yourwife is at and I would say this
very clearly to men who arelistening if you feel that your
wife's posture towards you andtowards lust and pornography is
suspicion looking over yourshoulder, asking all these

(38:27):
questions that's an indicationthat she is in some pain and
trauma over this topic andshould motivate you to say man,
I need to go get help.
Because until your wife feelssafe, until she feels like man,
I can trust him, I can trustwhat he's doing, I can trust
what he's looking at, I cantrust what he's thinking.
Until she's in that place ofsafety, it is negatively

(38:50):
impacting your marriage, even ifand I'll say this, even if
you're having regular sex.
Too often men use sex as thebarometer of health in the
relationship and they think well, you know, we're having sex, so
we must be fine, when reallythe wife might be having sex out

(39:11):
of a sense that, well, I needto help him so he doesn't stray.
I need to do this because it'smy duty as a Christian wife.
We do this just because it'swhat married couples do.
There may not be health justbecause you're having physical
connection.
In fact, it might becontributing to some unhealth,
where she's trying to do it torescue you.
And if your wife is using sexto try to rescue you, it may
actually be contributing to yoursexual addiction or to your

(39:32):
unhealthy needs that you'veattached to sex rather than
having sex.
Be in the marriage what Goddesigned it to be, which is a
mutually enjoyable,self-sacrificing kind of
connection about therelationship and not just about
me getting my needs met.
So that's something to payattention to in your marriage
and really a way to approachyour spouse is to see that, yes,

(39:52):
there needs to be honesty inthis area, but they should not
be your accountability partner.
So the other thing I would say,just last thing on this topic if
your wife doesn't know becausetoo many churches and retreats
have said this like if your wifedoesn't know, you need to go
home tonight and tell themeverything, and what that
actually becomes, I find is aform of emotional vomiting,

(40:14):
where the guy goes home and he'she's all convicted and he's
like okay, honey, I'm so sorrybut I need to tell you
everything you know and and theyfeel better, right, they got it
all out.
It's like man, this is awesome,she finally knows everything,
but just like you, just likethrew up all over your wife and
it's messy and it's stinky andthey're like what do I do with
this?
And there's no assurance ofchange.

(40:35):
It's a very scary place to be.
I want to say to men if yourwife doesn't know, the first
step you need to take is go toanother trusted man in your life
and you need to tell himeverything.
And then you need to getinvolved in recovery.
You need to start going to aweekly group, you need to start
educating yourself on what'shappening in your brain.
You need to be listening topodcasts.
You need to start taking stepstowards healing so that when you

(40:57):
tell your wife, it's not justemotional vomiting but it's a
very thought out, honest,fact-based presentation to say
here's where I've been and I'mso sorry and I hope you'll
forgive me.
And here are steps that I'mcommitted to taking towards my
recovery and I want to inviteyou would you be willing to be a
part of my recovery Right,because that's going to be a

(41:19):
very, very challenging place fora spouse to be.
But when she can see thatyou're moving towards recovery,
not just vomiting your sin allover her, it creates a better
opportunity for the couple towork together on healing, versus
just getting into this bingepurge cycle that my wife and I,
honestly, were stuck in for 10years.

Yeah, well, that kind of leads me to okay.
So if that's the case, thenpure desire.
What does that look like?
How's the framework designed sothat if a man doesn't have that
in his life, maybe they don'thave the relationships they feel
like they have, those ironsharpening, iron relationships?
Pure desire sounds like itcould be an outlet there.

(41:59):
So what does that look like?
Give us some insight there.

We hope pure desire could be that outlet for a lot
of men and women, because groupsis really what we're all about.
We have about 1,200 churchesaround the country that have a
form of Pure Desire groups inthem, so there might be a local
church around you or maybe yourchurch has one.
We found even churches thathave groups.

don't always know how to talk about them or
publicize them very well, I'mnot sure if I want to go sign up
for the Pure Desire group,right, how does that work?

Yeah, and we try to train and equip churches like
what's the right way to talkabout this?
So that people don't have toraise their hand or fill out the
welcome card with their spousesitting next to them saying, why
are you filling that out?
But that's another story.
So you could look on ourwebsite.
We have a group finder thatshows a map of the country and
where all these churches arelocated, and then we also have

(42:50):
online groups with trainedfacilitators.
That would be an opportunity tojoin an online group.
Or we encourage people all thetime.
You could start a group.
Our resources are reallyintended to be the expert and
you're just facilitating a group.
You're not the leader, becauseyou're perfect and have it all
figured out.
You're going through the group,even if you facilitate or lead
it.
You're going through the groupfor you, and so you could get a

(43:11):
copy of our workbook for men,seven Pillars of Freedom.
Or we also have groups forwomen and their sexuality issues
called Unraveled, and then forspouses who are on the betrayal
side, a workbook called Betrayaland Beyond, and going through
that group experience that isreally going to take you into a
deep dive into your healing.
So not just the accountabilityof you know, did you struggle
this week?
Right, but really looking at alot of those deeper questions of

(43:34):
why do I struggle, why do I goback to this, what's my pattern
and what needs to change.
And a thing that surprises a lotof people is our groups are
typically eight or 10 monthslong, and sometimes people say,
like man, why does it take solong?
It takes forever.
Well, we've seen that lastingbrain change is not a quick fix.
You might be able to change thebehavior within the first month

(43:57):
or two, but I always refer toit.
That's kind of like wet cementat that point and if you just
think, hey, I've had a couple ofgood months, I'm good to go,
and you abandon group and youdon't have community in your
life and you're not using thesetools, your brain will morph
back to these patterns of actingout sexually, like it's been
trained to do for many of us for20, 30, 40 years.

(44:18):
And so the length of groupgives your brain and your heart
and your soul enough time toheal and then sustain that
change in a way that we reallybelieve can be lasting and
create a lifetime of freedom,not just a couple of good months
.
What's the what's?

the.
You know, if you were designingthe, the, the ideal group size.
Is that three to five people?
Is that 10 people?
I'm just giving us a feel, foryou know what the ideal groups
look like, look like thosedynamics maybe, as well as
length of meetings.
Just kind of really get intosome of the nuts and bolts here
to give the guys what they couldexpect.
Walking into that.

Sure, the typical group meets for about two hours,
and I remember when mycounselor told me initially I
needed to join this group and itwas going to be two hours every
week.
And I'm like what, what on earth, could possibly take so long?
Because my my experience withthis was go into a room, ask
other guys, did you strugglethis week?
And then pray for one another.
Right, and I didn't know thatthere was actually curriculum,

(45:15):
there were resources and toolsthat we were going to walk
through.
So in a pure desire group, youtypically spend the first 30 to
40 minutes doing a check-in,typically spend the first 30 to
40 minutes doing a check-in, andthat check-in involves a very
specific process called theFASTER scale that helps you
identify the pattern that you'reon.
So FASTER is an acronym for andthis will just give people a

(45:37):
window into groups that might behelpful.
Faster is an acronym forforgiving priorities that leads
to anxiety that causes us tospeed up.
That's the S, and then webecome ticked off and then we
live in exhausted, and if we'rein exhausted long enough, we
will relapse.
So that's FASTER.
And so every week, even if youdidn't relapse, you're somewhere

(45:57):
.
You've been somewhere on thatscale, right, and you're
starting to identify what arethe things that are driving my
life emotionally, what are theundealt with temptations that
are lingering in the back of mymind, and as I learned to
identify my pattern and sharehonestly where I'm at on my
faster scale.
It gives me things to work onlong before I'm in relapse that

(46:18):
create that pattern of change.
So the check-in is more thanjust yes, no, did you have a bad
week?
It's like let's talk about whatactually happened in our week.
But it's also not just peopleshooting the breeze and telling
you random stories that havenothing to do with their
recovery.
It's very structured to createinsights into your own story and
, as you hear other people sharefrom their stories, you're

(46:39):
going to have light bulbs, go onand go, wow, I see something
I'm doing now.
So typically 30, 40 minutes ofcheck-in and then for an hour
they're going to go through alesson in the workbook that's
going to walk you through someprinciple of recovery, along
with your response to whatyou're learning, and then you
share those answers with thegroup and then at the end of
group you're going to make aweekly commitment to change.

(47:00):
And this is so powerful becauseit takes your recovery.
You know most of us have justsaid I never want to look at
pornography again, and that's awonderful goal.
But if you're asked like, howare you going to do that, yeah
Well, I'm just not going to doit.
That's right.
That's not actually a plan.
That's a great sentiment, butthat's not actually a plan.
So we break it down to say, thisweek, what is the most

(47:22):
important thing you need to doto walk in sobriety?
Right, and that might be thisweek.
It might be somethingrelationally that I need to do
with my wife.
It might be somethingphysically that I need to do to
get more sleep or exercise orhave better diet choices.
It might be something I need todo mentally to learn to grow.
It might need to be somethingemotionally that I face a

(47:44):
difficulty in my life and quitavoiding it and I make that
commitment to my group.
And then accountability becomesvery meaningful, because I'm
not just having generalaccountability of did I relapse
or not, but I'm beingaccountable to that commitment I
made for that week.
And what we find is when peoplestart to build up weeks where
they're successful in their planof change, that leads to a

(48:04):
lifetime of freedom and sobriety.
And so that's a picture of thetwo-hour group meeting.
Typically it's five people, upto eight, no more than eight,
because if it's more than eightpeople you don't have time for
everyone to share, and that'sone of our principles, that you
don't just come to group andobserve.
We're not like an AA meetingwhere you can just come and kind
of listen and share brieflyLike it's intended that every

(48:26):
person goes through their work,shares their answer and grows
together.
So if you get any bigger thaneight, there's just not time in
the meeting for everyone toshare what they need to share.
But yeah, that's kind of thegoal and the structure and we
have a lot more on our websiteabout groups and best practices.
And you know, sometimes peoplehave said, well, I tried a pure
desire group and it wasn'teffective for me, and we'll ask

(48:48):
a couple of questions abouttheir group and find out that,
well, they didn't really use thelessons or they didn't require
people to do homework or theydidn't make people commit to
coming every week.
And we'll say, well, you mayhave done a group that was under
pure desire's name, but thatwasn really a Pure Desire group,
because there are someprinciples that are really
important for effectiveness andfor group health.

I am assuming these groups are.
You have your men's groups, youhave your women's groups.
We're not mixing that right.

Correct Always single gender Right, right, love
it, love it.

Well, it's great stuff there, guys.
We'll take our last break withNick and we'll be right back.
I find it helps me to have aguide at times when I'm reading
and studying the Bible.
One way that helps me is byusing devotionals to guide not
only what I read, but insightsinto the scriptures themselves.
So we were blessed to become anauthor on the YouVersion Bible

(49:43):
app.
So we were blessed to become anauthor on the YouVersion Bible
app, and we saw an immediateopportunity to help others with
devotionals around the areasthat we spend the most time
talking about at the Lion WithinUs.
So if you enjoy the show, youmay enjoy these devos as well.
We have some guys that areusing them as part of their

(50:07):
small groups as well, as they'rea great way to get
conversations going.
So, to see the ones that we'vecreated, head over to
thelionwithinus to learn more.
So that's thelionwithinus toget started with your own men's
devotional today.
So, nick, I mean, as you'vebuilt some of these things out,
there sounds like you have a lotof hope for leaders, pastors,
church leaders, whoever may bein those types of positions.

(50:29):
You know what would be yourencouragement to them, who if
they're feeling prettyunequipped right now.
What would be yourencouragement for them to take
the step forward, to putsomething like this in place for
the people they're trying tolead?

Chris, I think you used a key word right there
unequipped and that, as we'vebeen talking about, is the
reality that I think a lot ofleaders, pastors and even
parents feel it's like I'm justnot equipped in this area and it
feels too big or it feels toomessy and so we just push it
away.
And one of the messages I wantto give people is you can get

(51:05):
equipped in this area, Forexample, and there are a lot of
ways out there but we have anintroductory video course called
Sexual Integrity 101.
So it's the 101, theintroductory course for sexual
integrity.
It's an eight-week video seriesto try and help people
understand this whole area andto get new insights and learn

(51:25):
about the brain and the heartand how they connect and how all
of it impacts our relationshipwith God and other people, and
we have it as a streaming video.
It's online.
You can order it on DVD, butthat's one example of a way that
you could be equipped listeningto our podcast and other groups
out there that really are aimedat educating men and women in
the church on what's happeningin this area of sexuality,

(51:49):
Because when we get a little bitof equipping the first step it
might help us see I need to dosome work in my own story, and
that's another starting placefor so many parents, leaders,
pastors is they need to do someof their own work, and part of
the reason they'll see thatthey've pushed it away is
because they've never addressedtheir own story of sexual
brokenness.

(52:09):
And that's why, at Pure Desire,we have groups for pastors.
We routinely encourage a pastoror leader find a way to address
this in your own life Because,like in my story, if you haven't
addressed, once you'veaddressed your own story, your
freedom to help other peoplejust grows exponentially.
Sure and thankfully, thereality is this isn't
everybody's story.

(52:29):
So if it's not your story,that's where being equipped,
having some tools in mind, a wayof speaking about this, Like I
mentioned earlier, just feelingconfident that I can bring up
the conversation, we can talkabout it and say this is safe to
talk about, Like God is notafraid of our sexuality.
God is not embarrassed about oursexuality, so we shouldn't be

(52:50):
either.
We should realize we can bringthis to him and to one another
in a way that we all learn andgrow together.
And when we create that kind ofsafe culture, a culture where
people can raise a hand and sayI need help and people go man,
that's awesome, We've got a wayto help you, here's a group for
you.
That's when we can really see achurch change, a family change,

(53:10):
a couple change.
So it's getting equipped tothat point where we feel like,
yeah, I kind of understandwhat's going on here and I can
now be part of the solution,rather than just staying in
silence.
Because if we stay in silence,whether we intend to be or not,
we really are part of theproblem.

Amen to that.
So you said something again.
You're giving me lots ofopenings here, Nick, so I got to
take them when you give them tome.
So the dad out there who'slistening because you mentioned
something about you knoweducation programs let's say
there's a dad listening and hefinds out his teenager is
looking at pornography, howwould you equip that man to lead

(53:52):
his family and to help histeenagers?
Well, is it something with puredesire?
Is it something they could dotogether?
Give us some insight there onwhat, some steps that
potentially he could take movingforward.

Certainly pure desire, and other ministries
have tools and we have ways wecan help equip that dad.
But I would want to start withhim just thinking about what is
his posture towards his teenageson, because too many of us,
inadvertently or maybeintentionally, have taken a
posture of punishment or ofjudgment or of shame.
Why this is so wrong?

(54:24):
What were you thinking?
I can't believe you did that.
I'm taking away your phone andit may be appropriate to create
some boundaries.
It may be appropriate to saythis is wrong, but I want to
encourage a dad to think about aposture of help or support or
advocate.
And so some of those firstwords whether we've caught our
son or they've come to us it andso some of those first words

(54:45):
whether we've caught our son orthey've come to us, those first
words need to be affirming andto say I'm here to be with you
in this.
So we might say to our son I amso grateful that this is in the
light, I'm so thankful for theopportunity to talk about this,
because I know when this is inthe dark, when it's a secret, it
can be so destructive and Iwant you to know I am here to

(55:06):
help you in this area because Iknow what it's like to struggle.
I'm a man too.
I've had these thoughts andfeelings and I want to be a part
of helping you rise above this.
And so let's talk about what'sa strategy that we could work on
together to help you avoid someof the dangers that are out
there with pornography andwhat's on the internet.
Do you see how, even in mylanguage now, I've postured

(55:29):
myself to be on my kid's side,and I think that's so key
because, like I shared in mystory and like most listeners
can probably relate, when westruggle, we fear rejection,
punishment, people are going tobe ashamed of us.
That's the shame message.
So keep in mind that yourteenager is probably already
bringing into the conversationthat level of fear and a shame

(55:51):
message, even if they haven'tverbalized it yet, they're
feeling this sense of oh no,what's going to happen?
And if a parent can comealongside and say I'm so proud
of you for facing this with me,I'm so glad that we get to talk,
because I never got to do thatwhen I was a teen and I think it
was just so hard to do this onmy own.
I want to be here for you, andit just starts to relieve some

(56:14):
of that fear and secrecy.
And now they see dad and or momand dad as that safe place to
go with their questions, withtheir struggles, because they
know they're not going to berejected, they're going to be
helped.
And I think I honestly believethis that God has put it in your
kid's heart to want your help,even if they don't ask for it,
even if they don't seem like it.

(56:35):
You know, even if when youbring it up they're like oh, dad
, you know, or they getembarrassed Like I still believe
, there's something in them thatactually deeply wants you to
enter into this with them and betheir advocate and be their
support.
And so if we can take that role, I just think that changes the
whole story.
And then, yes, get equipped.
You know we just released atPure Desire Ministries a parent

(56:58):
training course.
For this very reason, we'retrying to equip parents to have
healthy conversations and createa healthy culture with their
kids around this topic of sex.
And so go through a parenttraining course, learn about the
brain, learn what's out thereon social media and what it's
doing to our kids, so that youfeel you have some equipping in
those conversations.
But I think that the mainstarting point is just that.

(57:20):
It's where do you start?
Because if you start with thatposture of control, shame,
condemning punishment, like it'sjust going to shut down
conversation and it's alwaysgoing to be one-sided right,
it's going to be you tellingthem what to do versus.
We want this to be a two-wayconversation of support, of
honesty and accountability.

That's right, and I'm so glad you mentioned
the course because my follow-upwas going to be around.
How can we be proactive?
Maybe we have kids and theyhaven't reached that age and
they haven't been exposed to it.
So what should we be doing asparents, as dads, in particular
daughters and sons to beproactive there?
So it sounds like this initialcourse will be your suggested

(58:00):
course, you know, initial actionthat we could take.

Absolutely.
It'd be a great tool.
It's on our website, it's allstreaming, so you don't have to
have a DVD or anything.
You just watch at your own pace.
A couple on our team wrote abook how to Talk with your Kids
About Sex and they're the mainpresenters.
And then we interview a numberof industry experts, counselors,
people working in similarministries just to equip parents

(58:25):
.
And one other thing I would addwith this, because I think
we've also been handed aparadigm in the church that is
the heart behind it was right,but the implementation has
actually not been helpful.
And it's the idea that when mykid is 11, 12, 13 years old, I'm
going to take them away on atrip and we're going to have,

(58:46):
like this, deep, honest talkabout sexuality, which is great,
and I've done that with my boys.
But I would say, if that's thestarting point, we've waited far
too long because, really allthrough the ages of our kids'
lives.
We want to be starting theseconversations so that by the
time they're 11, 12, 13, it'snot awkward because they've been
talking about their body parts,They've been talking about

(59:06):
things they've seen on TV withmom and dad for years, and it's
just a normal part of parenting.
And so I try to tell a dad ifyou've got a son who's four or
five, six years old, you shouldstart asking questions about hey
, are there any things kids atschool have been joking about
that you don't understand?
Are there any videos on YouTubethat have come up that were

(59:26):
surprising?
You know, making sure you'recalling your body parts what
they are and identifying oh, dadis a boy too and I have the
same boy parts as you.
So just creating around thewhole topic of human sexuality
that this is something dad and Italk about.
And then, when they're 11, 12,13 and you want to go deeper,

(59:46):
you've got the context for it.
But I share that because thatwas also my only experience with
my dad was at 12 years, 11years old.
We had the birds and the beestalk and it was.
I think he did a great job.
Honestly, my dad had a greattalk with me, but that's the
only time I ever remembertalking about sex with my dad,
Right, and I tell you, at 13 and14 and 15 and 16, I needed a

(01:00:09):
dad that would keep coming backand saying how are you doing?
How can I help?
Do you have any questions?
Is there anything happeningwhere I could pray for you,
where I could support you?
But we just didn't have that inour relationship.
And my dad and I have a greatrelationship now and we've
talked about all of that.
And he said to me Nick, I justdidn't have a context how to do
that.
My dad never did that with me.

(01:00:30):
I just hoped you were makinggood choices and I was there if
you needed anything.
And I think a lot of dads feelthat like, well, I'll do that
one talk, but other than that Idon't really know what to do.
And I just try to encouragedads man, walk into the room,
ask the question, be curious,say how can I help, and even if
in the moment your kid, justlike I said, goes, oh, dad, or

(01:00:53):
they think it's stupid, thatmoment meant something and
they're paying attention andthey're listening.
And then, when something doescome up, they are far more
likely to come to you and sayhey, dad, something did come up.
Can I ask you about this?
Because you've been creatingthat context.
So don't wait for that oneweekend and think you're going
to solve all your kids' problemson some wilderness experience

(01:01:15):
if you don't integrate thisconversation all throughout
their growing up years.

Chris Grainger (01:01:21):
And Nick.
This has been tremendous, myfriend.
Before we wrap up, we always doa lightning round at the Lion
Within Us, where we kind of justhave a little bit of fun
towards the end of the episode.
This has been a heavy topic, somaybe we can end on a lighter
note.

Nick Stumbo (01:01:34):
If you want to play , we'll jump right into it.

Okay, all right.
So give us to play, we'll jumpright into it.
Okay, all right.
So give us a habit, somethingthat you enjoy doing for fun.

I am a runner.
It is the time I get out of thehouse and I'm alone.
No one can find me.
I don't take my phone, I don'tlisten to music, I just clear my
head and I run 30, 40 miles aweek.

Oh, my gracious.
So how long for a typical runin a day Is it?
Is it five Ks, 10 Ks?
What do you?

do?
Yeah, I usually do five toeight miles and then go a little
longer on a weekend run.

Oh, my gracious, good for you.
I'm a runner too, but I'm notgoing eight miles during a week.
That's, that's, that's.
That takes me a little while,but that's, it's good to clear
your head, right, yeah?
So, after all that running,what's your meal?

What's your go-to favorite food, Nick?
I mean, my favorite food isprobably fried chicken, but
right after a run, fried chickendoesn't hit the stomach very
well.
After a run, I will often makemyself like omelets, scrambled
eggs.
I love getting creative withomelets.
So I'd probably say omeletmaking is one of my specialties
All right, all right, all rightNow.

you've already mentioned the Minnesota Twins.
That's your team.
Any other sports teams thatyou're following?

I've lived in the Pacific Northwest for 22 years
now, so the Seattle Seahawkshave been probably my football
team that I follow, okay, andthen, you know, very
interestingly, one of my teenagedaughters got into hockey.
You know, very interestingly,one of my teenage daughters got
into hockey.
And I'll tell you, as a kid Ihated hockey because ESPN would
have all these hockey highlightsand I just wanted to see
baseball highlights.
Like you know, get past thestupid hockey.

(01:03:07):
But now my daughter's a hockeyfan and so we've become big
Seattle Kraken fans.

You know they're an expansion team.

They've only had a team for, I think, four years
now, but we enjoy sitting down.
Yeah, I mean it's, it's greatthat I can sit with my teenage
daughter and watch a hockey game, and we have a lot of fun doing
that that's really cool.

That's really cool.
How about if you, if you couldhave a superpower, Nick, like
any superpower out there?
Which one would you pick, andwhy?

I'll go something light.
If I had a superpower, it wouldbe always be able being able to
find lost things, because Itell you I hate it when I lose
something and I can't rememberwhere I put it, or even my um.
My wife and I have an ongoingjoke that my life's greatest
accomplishment is that after 25years of marriage I still have
my wedding wedding ring, becauseI take it off a lot for

(01:03:57):
exercise, you know, to washdishes, and there've been months
at a time like where is mywedding ring, and I've always
found it eventually.
But I'd love the superpower tojust like something's lost.
I know exactly where it is and,um, it would relieve a lot of
mental strain in my life.
That's pretty good.

What's your all-time favorite things?
That's it all-time favoritemovie.
What's your go-to?

uh, boy, I'd probably say the lord of the
rings trilogy is still at thetop.
Um big jr r tolkien fan, youknow read the book several times
as a kid and so I thought thosemovies captured the spirit of
the book really well and I meanyou gotta have a.
I got the extended edition DVDsright so you got to have like
four hours to watch one, butyeah, that's probably still my

(01:04:43):
go-to Nice nice.

A couple kind of theological questions when you
think about God and you don'thave to go very deep here.
What's your favorite thing,just like what's your favorite
thing about God?

More and more in this season of my life and I've
got four kids.
They're all teenagers now, oractually my oldest is 20.
I think the image of God is aloving Heavenly Father and Jesus
saying you know if you, asparents, know how to give your
kids good gifts and I can relateto that right Like I want the
best for my kids and even ifthey're messing up or make it
like my heart is so for them,and when I think that we have a

(01:05:20):
good, loving Heavenly Father,that, as Jesus says, is like if
you know how to give good gifts.
Don't you think your HeavenlyFather knows what you need?
You know and can give you theHoly Spirit?
And I need to remember that andget through some of my maybe
childhood, fears of God beingthe judge and the king and the

(01:05:40):
rule and all those things aretrue, but if we miss his father
heart for us, I think we reallylose an aspect of God that is so
vital.

Amen to that, bro.
Amen, and we'll flip it.
What's your least favoritething about the evil one?

Just the way we've talked about a couple of them,
just the way he lies to us andmakes us think we're the only
one.
Because, as I sit with groupswith men and I tell you what
breaks my heart is when a manwill say I believe God, I
confess my sin, I asked him toset me free and I kept
struggling and I thought theproblem's not with God, the

(01:06:14):
problem must be with me, andmaybe I'm not even saved.
To have men say that because oftheir sexual struggle, maybe
they're not saved, I'm like whata lie from the enemy to try to
divide us from others and evenfrom God and think we're alone
and rejected because of our sin.
Because that's the exactopposite message of the cross,
right, like the message of thecross is you're not alone in

(01:06:36):
your sin, I've paid the price,you are mine, and the enemy
tries to say yeah, but not you.
You know what you've done.
And if other people knew whatyou've done, not you and man.
That lie is just wrecking menand women, especially in this
area of sexuality.

A hundred percent, A hundred percent.
So, Nick, as we wrap up, what'sthe one thing you know?

final message that you hope the listeners remember
the most from our conversationtoday One of the themes God has
just put on my heart and I sayat the end of our podcast I say
you are not alone, and I knowthat can sound a little trite,
but to me there's a depth, asI've just mentioned the lies we
listen to, the parts of ourstory we feel particular shame

(01:07:19):
about.
We feel so alone and think ifothers knew I wouldn't have
friends, I wouldn't have afamily, I wouldn't be married.
And I think we need to hear oneanother say you are not alone,
I'm with you, I'm not going toleave you.
It's to me the most powerfulthing that we know about Jesus
that I will never leave you norforsake you.

(01:07:39):
You're not alone, because whenwe believe we're alone, it
drives us into so much of oursinful behaviors.
So when we believe that we'reaccepted, we're wanted, that
others are around us, it's agame changer, especially in this
area.
So no matter what you've done,no matter where you've been,
what lie you've held on to myfriend, I can tell you you are
not alone.

(01:08:01):
And so don't stay alone,because coming out of that
isolation is a choice.
We have to be willing to stepinto community and face that
part of us that we've beenholding secret.
But if we believe we'll beloved and accepted when we get
there, maybe it will give us thecourage to come out of that
isolation.

Amen to that, nick Amen.
So where do you want to sendthe listeners to connect with
you, the wonderful things you'redoing at Pure Desire to get
copies of your book, things likethat.
So give a good shout out herewhere you want to point the
listeners at today.

You can find everything at puredesireorg.
That's our website.
You can find all our books andresources are there on our web
store our weekly podcast andblog and many of the tools I've
been talking about the groups,the parent training course,
sexual integrity 101 videocourse it's all there at
puredesireorg.
We also have a growing YouTubevideo channel that all of our

(01:08:56):
podcasts and videos are on there, and so I would encourage
people to follow us there,because new content comes out
every week and our goal is justto create a community that knows
, hey, it's safe to talk aboutthis, and if you join our
YouTube community, then maybeyou'll be able to take some of
those same messages back intoyour community or your family or
your church and have betterconversations there.

Amen, amen.
Well, nick, this has beenwonderful.
Thank you so much for being soopen and transparent.
Really enjoyed it, learned alot.
And now, guys, be sure to gocheck out puredesireorg.
We'll have that link in theshow notes.
So, nick, thank you so muchagain, sir.

Thank you, Chris.
I appreciate you having me on.

If you're a man who's looking for greater
spiritual guidance into how tobecome a better leader, finding
resources that you can trust andthen implement can be daunting.
For me personally, I thought itwas a lost cause and I decided
to take the action, knowing thatI wasn't alone.
It was because of this wide gapthat we created our line within
this community, and the areasthat we're helping Christian men

(01:09:59):
grow are incredible.
For instance, we've built waysfor guys to lean in and grow
through fun events like ourdaily spiritual kickoff, where
you get that much needed boostdirectly from God's word.
Our Bible studies that alwaysfocus on how to discern and
apply what we learn, that alwaysfocus on how to discern and
apply what we learn, and evenour amazing form, where you can

(01:10:20):
speak your mind without fear ofgetting shut down or judged by
the extreme rules of modern daysocial media.
On top of all that, we knowthat many men won't help
overcoming issues and becomingstronger in many different areas
.
That's why we created severalmastermind groups where the iron
truly sharpens the iron.
Our community is about having agrowth mindset, accountability,

(01:10:41):
intentionality and transparency.
In other words, just leave fakeyou at home and come to
community just as you are.
I fully believe what we feel.
I see the impact it's making onmen right now and I would love
to have you check it out.
So start your very own 30-dayfree trial today to see how we
can help you be a better leader.

(01:11:01):
So if you're ready to take thatfirst step, head over to
thelinewithdenus and get started.
Your journey begins here.
This is thelinewithdenus, andI'll see you inside the den.
All right, guys, I told youthat was going to be a good one.
So, so thankful for Nick forcoming on the show.
The question of the week thisweek is really there's usually

(01:11:25):
something, and I want you tothink about this.
What is that one thing thatyou're clinging on to that God's
asking you to surrender, and weall got it Now.
It may be pornography, or itmay be chocolate peanut M&Ms
Maybe I'm speaking about myselfhere.
Anyway but seriously, there'ssomething.

(01:11:46):
There's something that we allhave that we're clinging on to,
that we're playing with in thedark, that we don't want no one
to know about.
We feel like we can suppress it, but you know what, if we keep
playing with stuff in the dark,satan's going to kick our butt.
He just is.
So, whatever that thing is, ifyou need help, I encourage you

(01:12:07):
to reach out, check out our LionWithin Us community, where you
can be around fellow Christians,brothers in Christ, to have
these types of conversations.
This is a pretty regularoccurrence within the Lion.
I can tell you that right nowGods are bringing the issues
that they're struggling with,and it's not just to say anymore
, just to drop a bag of dirtylaundry off.
No, we want to help you unpackit together, we want to help you
think through it.
We're going to bring thataccountability to your situation

(01:12:29):
that you desperately need, andwe do this without condemnation,
because we believe that withChrist man, we can overcome
anything, especially anythingthat evil has stolen us our way.
So if you need help, if youneed assistance, the
lionwithinus, click on thecommunity button to get started

(01:12:52):
today.
I hope to see you there.
All right, so give us a ratingand review, fellas, that helps
for sure.
Maybe you want to come on boardand be part of our community.
Check out our free resources,our weekly roar, our assessment,
our Christian leadershipassessment.
We have so many cool ways thatwe're serving, that we're
helping, that we are equippingyou to do the works God's called

(01:13:13):
you to do.
So I want you to check thatstuff out at the lion withinus.
Okay, so come back on Friday.
We'll have a couple of good dadjokes for you, some good tips,
as we always do, to equip you todo the work that guys calling
you to do so.
Anyway, if this resonated well,definitely share it with
someone else.
Share it with your men's group.
Maybe you don't want to sendthis to an individual, but if

(01:13:34):
you have a group text messagegoing on with a bunch of dudes,
drop this one in there.
Drop it in there and just sayhey, bro.
Don't know if any of you guysstruggle with this, but this
conversation was real and justleave it at that and somebody
may reach out.
They may not, but if you needsupport, thelionwithinus, all

(01:13:56):
right.
Have a great day, guys.
We'll see you on Friday.
Just keep leaning in and movingforward and remember to unleash
the lion within.

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