October 15, 2025 • 53 mins
Have you ever wondered if your faith and your career are supposed to be completely separate things? What if there's a way to bring your authentic Christian self into your work without falling into religious clichés? Dave "Super Dave" Jones joins us with a perspective you don't hear every day. As a former professional hockey player who later founded a Christian marketing agency, Dave understands the tension between secular careers and sacred calling.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Grainger (00:03):
Welcome to the Lion Within Us, a podcast
serving Christian men who arehungry to be the leaders God
intends you to be.
I'm your host, chris Granger.
Let's jump in.
All right, fellas, this is yourmeat episode.
Let's get right into it, okay?
So the scripture of the weekthis week is in the book of
Proverbs, the 29th proverb, the18th verse.
It says where there is novision, the people perish, but
he that keepeth the law happy ishe.
(00:25):
So, fellas, take some time.
If you want to know a littlebit more about how to simplify
and apply that one verse to yourlife, go back one of your
podcast feed to the spiritualkickoff episode for this week.
I took some time to unpack thatat length, hopefully to give
you some insights and some waysto take that scripture and walk
it out.
And if you're looking for waysto do that, monday through
(00:46):
Friday, the Lion Within us, wehave what we call our daily
spiritual kickoff.
It's a great way to get yourday started and guess what?
It's completely free.
So head over to thelionwithinusto get started for today.
Okay, all right, fellas.
Well, this is going to be a funone.
This is Dave Jones, affectuallytoday.
Okay, all right, fellas.
Well, this is going to be a funone.
This is Dave Jones,affectionately known as Super
(01:07):
Dave.
You'll find out about that onceyou get into the conversation,
but he has a really rare combohe was a professional athlete,
he served in the military and hespent a lot of time studying
psychology.
This is a really funconversation.
He played pro hockey in Europe,fellas, and really just a good
(01:27):
conversation around.
What is it like to be a Christfollower?
What does it look like in themarket so far as those out there
that are wanting to serveChrist in a meaningful way, how
can we actually bring the bestversion of ourselves into the
work that we do?
And it's just a really fun,insightful conversation.
Hopefully you guys are going toenjoy this one.
He actually lives in NorthCarolina, so we have that in
(01:49):
common as well.
He's actually right down theroad from where our farm is here
in North Carolina.
So fun guy, lots of energy,lots of insights.
So enjoy this conversation withDave Jones.
Dave, welcome to the LionWithin Us.
How are you doing today?
Dave Jones (02:06):
I'm doing awesome.
Thanks for having me today, man.
I'm super excited to talk toyou.
Chris Grainger (02:10):
For sure, for sure.
I mean we always like to startthe show with.
You know pretty easy to get ourlisteners to know you.
So what's something fun aboutyou that maybe not many people
know about?
Dave Jones (02:21):
What's something fun .
My nickname is Super Dave.
Super Dave, and why is that so?
Years ago I did pretty well athockey.
I played pro hockey in Europeand after my hockey career I,
you know, sort of didn't doanything.
And then I got really fat,chris, I just got overweight,
(02:45):
and so I said, you know what, Ineed to do something about this.
So I, I joined CrossFit and, um, I did really well with
CrossFit and, uh, the local boxjust gave me the name Super Dave
.
And because I have the mostcommon name in the world, dave
Jones, it's just easier to goplaces and order things.
And you know the dry cleaners,all the Dave Jones you know,
(03:07):
even in my, you know my golfclub.
You know like there's three ofus.
So it's hey, I'm playing golfwith super Dave today, or hey,
this is super Dave's meal.
So it was funny.
Uh, last week, um, or lastweekend, we were at the golf
course and and the pro was likeboth my kids were there and
they're like you call your dadsuper.
(03:29):
It's kind of weird.
So my kids call me super thereyou go.
Chris Grainger (03:34):
That's pretty good.
Well, I love to hear your story, your testimony, particularly
how you came to know Christ man.
So get our listeners up tospeed.
Dave Jones (03:44):
Yeah.
So, like I was saying I did,yeah, so, um, so, like I was
saying, I did pretty well athockey in high school.
I won a couple of statechampionships and then I went on
to Ottawa to play and then andthen to um, cleveland and then
overseas in Europe.
But the first year I won thestate championship, um, I was uh
, 16.
And, uh, after that it was abig celebration.
(04:08):
I went out and got drunk.
I mean, I got drunk really bad,and my brother, who is
attending Moody Bible Institute,was coming home that weekend.
It was really providential andI, just when I tell this story,
I can remember myself laying onthe bed and just my head was
just throbbing and my brothercame in and said hey, man, you
want to live like this?
And I was like no.
And he said do you want toreceive Jesus as your Lord and
(04:29):
savior?
I'm like yes, and so Iconfessed right there.
Um, wow, I will say that I was16 and you know it took about
four years for that seed toreally, you know, sit there and
it really started taking offwhen I was 21, 22.
Chris Grainger (04:47):
Sure, I'm sure.
I mean, I've never playedhockey, but I've been around a
lot of other sports and I'm sure, as you elevate, in hockey too
it's very secular.
So I mean, how was it walkingthat that discipleship journey
out?
You know, playing a sportaround lots of temptations.
Dave Jones (05:05):
Yeah, I mean that's, that's really kind of when I my
career started powering down iswhen my relationship with
Christ started powering up.
Okay, well, quite honestly,because you know, of all the
sports you know, I would sayhockey is the darkest sport.
Chris Grainger (05:20):
Why is that?
I'm curious, that's, that'sinteresting.
Dave Jones (05:23):
Yeah, um, I don't know why.
I mean, I have some ideas why,but I just think that you know,
it's a very violent sport.
It's not supported very wellwith, you know, christians, you
know, whereas football there'sjust a very stronger population
of Christians, whereas hockeycomes from the Eastern Europe
(05:46):
game, you know, from Canada,it's not really an American game
and so, um, you know, it's just, it's just a dark sport there's
no way to say so.
It's just, it's just not now.
I think it's gotten better, youknow, with FCA and Hockey
Ministries International.
You know they're involved andLiberty University is, you know
they're involved and but libertyuniversity is, you know, is out
there, you know, um, along withum, grand canyon university.
(06:09):
So there's some otheruniversities coming along that
are bethel and minnesota, thatare, you know, a faith-based or
a methodist background, thathappen to play hockey yeah, yeah
, I mean for me.
Chris Grainger (06:21):
I mean I grew up in the south and we didn't have
hockey until the carolina gotour team you and now we have the
Canes, but I mean, still it's.
It seems somewhat foreign to meas someone who just never, I
just never had that opportunityto play the game, and it just
wasn't something that we playedin the South.
So how did you get introducedto it?
Dave Jones (06:41):
So I grew up in northwest Pennsylvania.
My brother was a goalie.
He was nine years older than meand um, my brother, um, you
know, he got in trouble a lotand so he was, you know, in my
mind he was seeking attentionthat way and I didn't really
want to do it that way.
So I just, I don't know, I wasfive, six, seven, I, I didn't
have a you know subliminalthought for sure, but I just
(07:03):
started scoring goals and peoplegave me accolades for that, so
I thought I'll just try to scoremore goals, right, so it became
something positive, you know.
That's cool man, that's awesome.
Chris Grainger (07:16):
Well, I know you said, after your hockey is when
things really ramped up withChrist, I'm assuming, within
your work as well.
So like how did you?
You know, what did that look?
Dave Jones (07:28):
like Kind of walk us into the down that path.
Yeah, so I I left, uh, I leftGermany, I went and coached out
in Colorado and I and I cameback my fiance wife now of 25
years, Um, she got a job inGreenville, North Carolina, Okay
, and uh, and so it was makingtwice what I was making as a
youth hockey coach, and so wejust trekked across the country
(07:48):
from Denver to Greenville and Itook a job with Fox TV and it's
the first time I've ever beenreally in a cubicle and honestly
, Chris, I was really justchallenging my life and asking
the Lord, like, what do you wantto do with it?
Because this sucks.
(08:08):
Like I don't want to sit in thiscubicle and I said a prayer,
right there at my desk, and Ifound myself, you know, looking
at a list of Christians on theTV station and I didn't hear an
audible voice.
But I just had the idea of like, okay, I'll start an ad agency,
what do I call it?
And immediately marketingministries came to mind and I
(08:29):
thought that was the dumbestname.
Like marketing and ministries,like Lord, this is like two
common names.
And so I didn't know what to do.
So I got a lawyer and thelawyer, you know, did a search
and, sure enough, it wasavailable.
And so I'm like wow, this wasn'tsuch a dumb idea, yeah.
Chris Grainger (08:45):
Yeah.
Dave Jones (08:47):
And so I just started the company in November
2001.
I had no idea what I was doing.
I just, I think probably myhockey background, you know.
It was just like, okay, go getsome clients.
I went back to that list of allI think there were.
I think there were 30 clientson that list.
I went to them in June and saidI'm going to start this agency
(09:08):
called Marketing Ministries.
I think like 27 of them saidwe're with you.
Chris Grainger (09:11):
I'm like awesome .
Dave Jones (09:14):
So I started the company in January.
November I registered, but inJanuary is when I really started
.
It Went back to that list,chris, and they all looked at me
like a cow at a new gate.
They're like what?
Like no, we're not with youReally.
So they backed off.
They backed off.
I had three of those clients.
(09:35):
Two of them are still with metoday.
That first year I did $15,000of revenue and I made 15%.
Wow, yeah.
Second year, 30,000 of revenueand I made 15%.
Second year, $30,000, 15%.
Third year, I think it was upto $200,000.
I made 15%.
15% of $200,000 is $30,000 ayear.
(09:58):
I was crushing it, man, takingthe world on fire.
In year three, year fourdoubled and year five it doubled
, and then I would never lookback, right.
Chris Grainger (10:11):
Yeah, and that's probably the lesson a lot of
small business owners need tohear too.
Like I mean, usually the quickwins just aren't there.
Dave Jones (10:21):
At least that's not what your experience and what I
hear from many it's taken me 25years now to be an overnight
success.
Right, right yeah.
Yeah, that's been Go aheadSorry.
Chris Grainger (10:34):
I would say speak to the guy listening, man.
I just finished writing anarticle on this and I just don't
like, since you started, sinceyou went down this path, it's
worth exploring.
I met with an executive severalyears ago and she's, and so
this is a fortune five, probablyfortune 100 company actually.
She was pretty high up, but shetold me something that stuck
with me and she said think big,act small.
(10:56):
And she was just like that iswhere most people get it wrong
in business.
Is they really just get caughtin the beehives and chasing that
versus taking the diligentsteps that God has put in front
of us to do each and every day?
So maybe the year one, year two, walk us through some of that,
those small steps that you weretaking just to be, you know,
(11:16):
laying the path and staying onthe path that God's called you
to do.
Dave Jones (11:20):
Yeah.
So you know, I have mydoctorate in sport and
performance psychology and so I,when I get asked this question,
I go back to me and the me backthen was not, I didn't.
I knew I didn't like me, like Ihad a poor self image.
(11:42):
I tore down people.
I thought the more I tore downpeople, the better I would be.
You know, you've probably beenin some room with some of those
people, like they just, and so Iwas one of those.
My self image I had two slapshots in the face, broke my nose
in three different directions,like I had 56 stitches in my
face, like I just really didn'tlike who I was.
And I am so thankful for thismentor who I met in a Taco Bell
(12:04):
in Wilson, north Carolina, andhe basically we just became
friends and he said you know, ifyou don't like who you are,
here's 30 books for you to readin the next two years.
At the time, television was howwe consume media.
He said turn off the TV andread these books.
And I did, yeah.
Chris Grainger (12:28):
I'm curious.
I'm finding your mentor at TacoBell Wilson, like I've been.
I'm in North Carolina, I livein North Carolina.
Dave Jones (12:34):
For those who don't know.
Chris Grainger (12:35):
there's nothing in Wilson, so like how'd you
find this guy at?
Dave Jones (12:40):
Wilson, I was.
I was working for Fox TV and Iwas calling on clients to get
business to advertise on thestation local businesses, I just
happened to be in Taco Bell andyou just struck up a
conversation with this guy.
Chris Grainger (12:54):
Yeah, man, that's incredible.
It sounds like God was in thatmoment big time.
Dave Jones (13:00):
Or 1,000%.
I don't believe in coincidenceat all.
It was ordained man for sure.
We're still friends today.
He just mentored me along andjust really show, show me what
it meant to be a a man of God,yeah.
Chris Grainger (13:17):
Wow.
So what was some of the booksthat you remember the most or
some of the things from?
Do you remember anything fromthose for that list?
Dave Jones (13:25):
Oh yeah, Um, let's see Maximize manhood, how to
think and grow rich.
Chris Grainger (13:32):
Yeah.
Dave Jones (13:33):
Um, how to win friends and influence people.
Um, uh, um, um.
Did I say maximize manhood, theFive Love Languages.
Chris Grainger (13:50):
Oh, gary, yeah, yeah.
Dave Jones (13:53):
The.
Chris Grainger (13:53):
Basic Tenets of Christianity what's that?
So we've had Gary on the showbefore.
He's awesome yeah.
Dave Jones (14:02):
Rich Dad, Poor Dad.
Rich God, Poor God, Nice yeah.
Chris Grainger (14:09):
So this guy gave you a salient set of books that
definitely were very impactful,yeah.
Dave Jones (14:15):
Who Moved my Cheese.
That was a big one that one got.
Who Moved my Cheese got methrough COVID.
Chris Grainger (14:21):
How's that?
I mean?
First of all, let's take abreak, then you can come back,
explain what who Moved my Cheeseis for the guys who haven't
read it before, and then diveinto what that meant for you at
COVID.
We'll be right back.
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All right, dave, so kind ofexplain, you know, first of all,
(15:51):
just the premise of who Movedmy Cheese is a great book.
Just kind of get the guys up tospeed on that one and then like
, how did that impact you inthis season of COVID?
Dave Jones (15:59):
Yeah, so who Moved my Cheese is about Hem and Haw
and Sniff and Scurry, and sowhat they do?
They live in this maze andevery day Hem and Haw go to the
same corner and Sniff and Scurrygo to the same corner.
I think Hem and Haw were miceand Sniff and Scurry were like
little people, I think that wasthe anyway.
(16:19):
So they all go to the samecorner.
But one day someone moves thecheese and so Sniff and Scurry
say somebody moved the cheese,let's go throughout, let's go
look for other cheese, WhereasHem and Haw they stick around
and they basically Hem and Haw.
They go from day to day going.
(16:40):
Somebody's going to bring thecheese, Maybe the cheese is
behind the wall, Maybe we missedit, Maybe we'll just wait and
see and just say hem and haw,Whereas sniff and scurry man,
they're finding crumbs.
You know it's not a big chunkof cheese, but they're finding
crumbs in these different partsof the maze and they end up
surviving and hem and haw do not, because they hem and haw.
(17:04):
And so how that got me throughCOVID is, you know, the cheese
moved during COVID 100%, and so,like this may not be popular,
but the church shut down andthey were hem and haw, they were
not sniffing scurry, and Ithink today we're still feeling
(17:27):
that.
Where people figured out how todo community without the church
, because the church wasn'tthere for them, they bent the
knee under the safety securityguise of the government and I
think people caught on to that.
That's just one example, and so,as a local business owner, you
couldn't bend a knee to safetyand security, which we all know
(17:49):
now was not safe or secure.
It was the opposite was safeand secure.
And so you had to figure outhow to change your business
model and survive, and so youhad to be sniff and scurry.
Chris Grainger (18:02):
So practically for you.
What did that?
Dave Jones (18:04):
look like.
It meant serve unconditionally.
It meant be creative.
It meant ask questions of howcan we change your business
model, how can we figure out howto make this work?
It was not.
Well, let's shut down.
Everybody go home.
We're not going to do anything.
(18:24):
It's safe for you to be at home.
Uh-uh, we are sniffing, scurry.
My whole staff read the book.
We said, hey, we're going to doanything.
It's safe for you to be at home.
We are sniff and scurry.
My whole staff read the book.
We said, hey, we're going to besniff and scurry.
We don't know the answer, butwe're going to ask questions.
We're going to help peoplefigure out a business model that
works, and we are going to behere.
Chris Grainger (18:41):
I remember back during that time, particularly
for marketing, there were areasthat many businesses looked at,
as you know, non-essential.
They pulled a lot of thatfunding back.
So I'm sure for you guys it wasit was, you know, we got to
make a pivot.
We got to make a pivot now.
Dave Jones (18:58):
You know, on top of that, chris, google basically
said church was a hate speech.
So if you're running aChristian agency and you know
you have nonprofits that you'remarketing and they're saying
that everything within theChristian space is hate speech,
how are you going to use Google,you know?
And so we had to come up with.
You know, if church is hatespeech and they're you know,
(19:20):
remember they were shadowbanning and deplatforming you
know.
And so we we had to say, okay,let join us in community instead
of join us at this church.
So we had to change thelanguage.
We had to be sniff and skirt.
Chris Grainger (19:34):
That's crazy.
So the marketing agency?
So is your primary demographic?
Are you working with ministries, churches, 501c3s, things like
that?
From the kingdom impactstandpoint?
Dave Jones (19:49):
That's exactly it.
So our vertical is Jesus.
If clients are, you know,trying to glorify the Lord with
their talents and theirabilities in some space, whether
they're a Christian businessowner with a secular business or
there's, you know there's aministry, whether it's a church
or just you know ministry outthere, you know, trying to raise
donations for humanitariansupport, whatever it is that's
(20:12):
our vertical and we're, to myknowledge, we're one of four
agencies and we're the oldestright now in the space.
Really wow congratulations, manthanks.
Chris Grainger (20:22):
It's hard for me to say that that we're the
oldest in the Christianmarketing space, really, because
I know where I came from whatdo you see that's working the
most right now, from your end,for these churches, for these
organizations, to get awarenessto people out there,
particularly guys.
Speak to the guys out there.
(20:43):
What's working?
Dave Jones (20:45):
Yeah, so I'm just going to give a little
background here.
This is my 25th year in thisspace.
I can remember when you know,television was an undisputed
heavyweight champion when itcomes to reaching the most
amount of people for the leastamount of money.
Television was it.
You know there was a time whereemail was it Direct mail?
(21:05):
Going way back, direct mail wasit Yellow pages?
I remember having conversationswith yellow pages in the penny
saver, like that was you know,business off that today it's
influencers.
There is a big shift in legacymedia right now.
So those of you't know, legacymedia is like the traditional
(21:27):
media, like ABC, nbc, cbs.
You know those legacy broadcaststations.
I suspect five to seven yearsfrom now those won't be around
Because all these other channelsand influencers and podcasts
are popping up like your podcast, and influencers and podcasts
(21:48):
are popping up like your podcast.
You know, like people arelistening and consuming you and
your guests versus consumingLate Night with Jimmy Fallon.
That's right.
And so you're getting the medianow and you're getting what you
want.
Broadcast media was just that.
There was a time I think you andI are probably right around the
same age I'm 51.
(22:08):
There was a time when you knowthere was NBC, abc and CBS, and
you remember when Fox came andthey're like Fox.
There's gonna be no space forFox cartoons in prime time.
That'll never work.
And here we are with theSimpsons 20 some years later.
Right, that are still goingstrong.
And so you had to take in theBrady Bunch, right, you had to
(22:31):
take in, like these, legacymedia.
Now you know there is no suchthing as broadcast media.
You know you can watch the NHLNetwork.
You don't have to watch ESPN,you know.
And so with influencers, what'sinteresting?
One, it's trackable so you cancancel.
Two, there's a built-in trustalready there.
(22:52):
So people that are watchingyour podcast, they believe you,
chris.
And so marketers that come in,christian marketers, come in and
say, okay, chris is promotingthis, I believe what he's saying
.
Therefore, I'm more likely tobuy the product or invest in the
product or donate to theministry.
So, influencers, we spendprobably a million and a half a
(23:16):
month in influencers right nowthrough 38 to 41 different
clients around the world thatare looking for donation,
purchase a product.
You know, whatever it is,influencers are working.
Chris Grainger (23:30):
Wow, wow.
So I mean, and that's, you'reseeing that as an impact for
like churches directly?
Then, huh, so an influencertalks about the mission or the
organization or whatever it maybe, and then that gives them a
lot of I guess, a lot of trafficand eyeballs Built in trust.
Dave Jones (23:48):
Yeah, versus, you know it airing on Fox TV and
it's a general commercial Mm-hmm, you know Wow.
Chris Grainger (23:57):
In the Christian space.
How do you find the influencers?
What are they doing that worksthe best?
That are gaining the most trust?
Is it podcasts?
Is it YouTube?
Is it other types of media.
Dave Jones (24:09):
Rumble Rumble's a good place.
The Blaze Network is a goodplace.
Oh yeah, salem's a good place.
You know there's also now likewe had a meeting, you know, a
couple weeks ago, withinfluencers in the gun space,
you know, just doing gunpodcasts, you know.
(24:29):
So if you're a conservative,you know, if you're a right-wing
, bible toting gun, gun totingChristian right.
Conservative, you know having agun podcaster say, hey, I
believe in this ministry.
It's a built in trust.
Chris Grainger (24:48):
Wow, that's awesome.
What about, like, we have acouple?
Well, I'm in North Carolina,are you out of North Carolina as
well?
I'm in Raleigh, yeah, okay.
Well, I'm right up the roadfrom you, so I'm about 30
minutes from Raleigh.
So we have a megachurch inRaleigh with the Summit Church.
I'm sure there's other megchurch, there's other mega
churches out there.
What do you see?
(25:08):
Is anything from the megachurch standpoint that you see
that you're leveraging, or isthat because I hear good and bad
from you know the mega churchmodel for so far as capturing
attention for people?
Dave Jones (25:23):
Are we talking marketing or just straight up
Christianity in general?
Chris Grainger (25:30):
Marketing mainly .
But I'm also just curious justin your personal take on the
megachurch because you'reheavily involved in it sounds
like lots of differentministries out there, so I know
there's lots of pros and cons.
I'm just curious on just yourpersonal position as well.
Dave Jones (25:48):
Okay.
So the mega church um, I willsay that barna does really good
research in this area on megachurches.
So I'm definitely not like aexpert on this, but you know, I
would encourage listeners to,you know, consume some barna
research.
The latest that I read is thatchurch attendance is down but
(26:11):
Christianity is up.
So people are, people aregetting the word of God.
They're just not doing it in atraditional way.
So the mega church ministries,you know, you know there's.
I would say that they'resomewhat working.
You know, personally, I just Ithink that the I'm not sure I
(26:40):
want to say this.
This is why I'm hesitating.
I've always been opposed to rows.
I like tables.
Okay, yeah, I don't know.
So when you're talking aboutrows, it's a one-way dialogue,
when you're talking about tables, it's a collaboration, it's a
(27:03):
conversation, and so I justdon't know that we consume that
way anymore.
We interact, we engage, we makecomments, we share, we follow,
we like Right, we share, wefollow, we like Right.
And so, you know, the model ofthe church to me goes back to,
you know, christ and what he did.
(27:25):
I mean, he didn't put up abuilding, did he?
He walked and he talked and hepreached and he engaged and he
preached and he engaged.
Chris Grainger (27:38):
Yeah, even the early Acts, the model of the
church in the book of Actsspeaks about, you know,
gathering in homes and families,coming together and doing life,
and that definitely leads to,like you said, genuine
conversations, reflections,wrestling with different topics,
you know, in a biblical way,because I mean, there's texts
(27:59):
out there that I wrestle withall the time, but it does me
much better.
I think that's what works forus at the Lion, the way we do it
, because we come together insuch a format.
It's not one of us preachingdown to them all, it's all of us
.
Okay, collectively, ephesians 6.
Let's talk about this togetherand see, you know, what's the
Spirit showing you?
Okay, well, it's the Spiritshowing you and, man, it has
(28:20):
been incredible to see thedifferent types of revelations
that we each individually see,but collectively, you bring that
thought process together, man,there's some pretty incredible
things going to happen.
Dave Jones (28:32):
It's powerful, right , I mean there's a space for
group therapy.
That's powerful, right, I meanthere's a space for group
therapy.
That's the church it's notdesigned to do, to collaborate.
I mean you could say, well, wehave small groups.
Okay, yeah, you have smallgroups.
That's great, that's awesome,but the business model of the
church it just I don't know, tome it doesn't work.
(28:56):
The churches that I've beeninvolved, there's usually
somebody I call it.
Just, I don't know, to me itdoesn't work.
When the churches that I'vebeen involved, there's usually
somebody.
I call him big C, you knowthere's somebody in the
marketplace that is like fundingit Right.
And then little C's the church,where it's like, okay, the
tithes and offerings are, youknow, part of keeping the lights
on, but if there's any majorlike you know thing you want to
(29:18):
do, you've got to bring inlittle C to start it and to
maintain it and so, yeah.
So I was saying there's,there's a spot for group therapy
.
Yeah, I mean, I think you're,you're seeing it, yeah, yeah.
Chris Grainger (29:36):
And look at the stats on like the guys in the
churches too.
I mean, you're all over it.
I think there's something to besaid about you know sitting
down and feel like you're being,you know, told everything
you're doing wrong for 30minutes a week and singing songs
that make it sound like Jesusis your boyfriend and like some
of that stuff just turns off somany guys, man.
(29:56):
It's like wait a minute now,like friend and like some of
that stuff just turns off somany guys.
Man, it's like wait a minutenow, like that's not gonna get
it.
Or we say a men's group andthat men's group gets together,
has a sausage biscuit every, youknow, every third saturday, and
then when there's a speaker, uh, and then that's it.
I mean, but we're not actuallyhaving anything deeper than
surface level conversations anduntil that happens, uh, we're
just spinning the wheels.
Dave Jones (30:15):
We that's right.
Chris Grainger (30:16):
We're just pretending.
Dave Jones (30:24):
What I'm most fired up right now about and I've been
here for about two years- ismessaging, messaging, okay,
messaging.
Chris Grainger (30:30):
So if I were to say, chris, hold on for a second
, dave, let's take a quick breakand come back and let you
unpack that.
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(31:17):
All right, dave.
So you said you're fired up,which really got my my ears.
Then you said messaging.
Dave Jones (31:26):
So now, like, explain that for us, unpack that
yeah, if I were to say to youhey, chris, you need to, you
need to become a fully devotedfollower of Jesus Christ.
Okay, if we were to unpack thatyou don't know what that means
and I don't know what that meansand I'm telling you that you
(31:48):
need to do that, right?
So it really doesn't take usanywhere.
In fact, it's me telling youwhat to do, and so it perhaps
puts a wall between us, becausenow, unasked for advice is
criticism, and so now you'regoing.
Who is this guy to tell me Ineed to be a fully devoted
follower of Jesus Christ, right?
(32:10):
Yep, yep, so little differencehere.
So scenario B is hey, chris, Iwant to explore what it looks
like with you to become a fullydevoted follower of Jesus Christ
.
See the difference?
Oh, yeah.
Or, hey, chris, I want toexplore the Bible with you.
(32:32):
I want to learn.
Hey, chris, I want to explore,I want to discover what it means
to be a man of God with you.
I want to learn acres.
I want to explore, I want todiscover what it means to be a
man of god with you.
Can we do?
Chris Grainger (32:42):
that together that invitation, right I'm
curious to get your take on this, because you, man, when you
said messaging, I was thinkingabout it because my writing
coach, when I first startedwriting, he kept talking to me
he's like you write too much incommand style, but you gotta
stop that.
He's like, so you're gonna drawpeople in with reflection and
(33:06):
where you're.
You know, here's the way I seethe world.
What, what?
Here's some things I'veexperienced here.
I've been reflecting on thisand I will tell you just by
looking at the statistics.
But I mean, he's right.
When we made that change, ouremail list went up, our
subscribers went up, ourcommunity members went up.
Youversion reached out to usand said hey, you know, we want
(33:28):
more of what you're doing.
You know we have 40 somethingthousand followers on YouVersion
.
Now it's just, it's been crazywith that little change where
we're not saying do this or orburn Like that's not the message
, man.
The message is like likeliterally most of the writing
now.
It's like, all right, here'show I have screwed up, here's
how much it hurt and here's whatI've learned from it.
(33:49):
And if it's helpful to you,like, roll with it, bro, and if
it's not, hey, check somebodyelse out.
But I mean, I don't know.
Just that change.
And when you said messaging,that authenticity comes to mind
for me.
I don't know if that's whatyou're seeing or not.
Dave Jones (34:03):
Yeah, so the hierarchy which I think you're
referring to is the hierarchicalmessaging, like I am telling
you what you need to do, right,like that doesn't work.
It doesn't work anymore.
So Donald Miller, many yearsago, came out with StoryBrand
and one of the great things hesaid was the organization is no
longer the hero, the client, thedonor, the first time guest.
(34:25):
They are the hero, you aretheir guide.
And so this you know how longI've been doing this nobody
cares, right, nobody cares.
You know how much you know it's.
It's more about what are youstruggling with, chris, and how
can you and I do it together?
(34:46):
So I've been using this analogylately, cause I like to play
golf and you know it's adifference of when you walk into
the golf, the country club, andthe doors swing open, there's
somebody there waiting to greetyou and says hey, chris, we
built this for everyone.
Come on in, there's a seat downthere somewhere.
(35:08):
Or scenario B is hey, chris, webuilt this place for you.
It's so good that you came back, man, we're excited to have you
and your family here.
You have your normal seat andthere's a waiter waiting for you
with, you know, your favoritedrink.
That's the difference.
Chris Grainger (35:28):
Yeah, that's incredible.
That's incredible.
So I mean, how do you thinkkind of take full circle back to
your church?
I mean, how do you think kindof take full circle back to your
church, how could they makesome small shifts to adapt that
type of model or messaging,rather, yeah.
Dave Jones (35:44):
So I would say we haven't talked about this.
Let me set it up for a second.
I would say lose the ORPs, theobligatory religious phraseology
.
When I bring this up in thechurch, you know, like meetings,
like the ORPs, they go, oh mygosh.
Yes, you know, transformingministries of the spirit of
excellence.
Nobody knows what you'retalking about.
(36:05):
Man, it's really cool messagingthat.
Everybody says that it's like,yeah, we don't know what we're
doing, you know.
So you got to lose that.
And it's really in theChristian community.
It's's really really hard to dobecause we like our
christianism, christianism, welove speaking that stuff.
Man, oh yeah, man, oh yeah.
So you know.
(36:26):
You kind of got a bullet downto what exactly it is that we're
struggling with.
I'll just, for example I'lljust one that's really easy is
stress.
Everybody's dealing with stressand being overwhelmed.
So you know, are you stressedand overwhelmed.
Chris Grainger (36:47):
Come join us in community today.
Dave Jones (36:51):
You know, it's very warm, it's very inviting, very
relatable.
Yeah, we're a church built onthe word of God.
We have a great worship, wehave children's ministries.
You know, god, we have a greatworship, we have children's
ministries.
You know, this is what I callmessaging that is commoditized.
Everybody's saying it.
Chris Grainger (37:07):
Tell me what's different about your church Go
ahead.
I said but it's easy for thepastor.
He doesn't offend anybody, hedoesn't have to worry about
stepping on any toes, and that'swhere I get fired up.
But yeah, keep going.
Dave Jones (37:20):
Group therapy, it's easy.
The church, so you know it'sjust got to lose the.
I lost my train of thoughtthere, sorry.
When we're talking aboutobligatory religious phraseology
, bringing it down to whatsomebody is struggling with,
(37:40):
nobody's resonating with.
You know, we have a pastor.
What kind of church?
Yeah, oh my gosh, my praise andworship team is amazing.
Right, nobody cares, right.
Chris Grainger (37:53):
Right, I mean the pastor that I connect most
with.
I mean he's out of Florida,pastor Joby Martin, and I think
the reason it's working isbecause his sermons are like
that Down to the lifeapplication, to what you're
seeing, to what you're feeling.
I mean, I've been on so manyruns, I listen to him when I'm
(38:13):
running every day, and it's just.
I've had so many moments oflike him when I'm running every
day.
Okay, and, and it's just, it'sjust.
I've had so many moments oflike, yep, that's me like I mean
he talks about anger and justgetting spewing out and it's
just good, I mean so.
But like he doesn't say likethat's you, he's.
He's saying like this is, this,is what I've experienced myself
.
And like when you hear that asa, as a, as someone listening to
(38:36):
obviously this man's followingwhat God's calling him to do,
like he's built so much trust inme, you know, just because of
his authenticity and hiswillingness to be vulnerable,
and I think, man, we just don'tsee that it's very rare.
I've never seen it in my localchurch, ever from the pulpit,
Like it just doesn't exist, man.
Dave Jones (38:57):
It's tough.
It's tough to find that.
It's awesome, that you foundthat.
It's great.
Um, yeah, so the messaging.
Messaging to me is everything.
Yeah, and how do we turn thelens to help people become the
best version of themselves?
To be, you know, fulfillingtheir God-given purpose.
(39:18):
And how do we become a VIP tothat process?
Like that fires me up from anorganizational level down to a
personal level.
Chris Grainger (39:29):
Speak to the guy out there.
You know who's.
Maybe he's not the owner of thebusiness.
He's just.
He's just working.
He's just there doing, doingwhat God's calling him to do
there.
How can he bring his personalfaith and let that be a bigger
part of his career?
What advice would you give thatguy?
Dave Jones (39:51):
I think it'd be the same advice I'd give somebody
who's a business owner.
Honestly, okay, to me it's notabout how you're creating income
, it's how you're glorifying theLord with your talents and your
abilities.
That's it.
That's it right.
How I create money doing thatis.
To me it's a byproduct.
(40:13):
The question that I have is thatthe world tells us to go to
school, get good grades, get ajob, learn a skill Right, and so
I think Gallup came out with apoll several years ago that 88%
of the US workforce isdisengaged at work.
(40:34):
So we're doing things that wedon't want to do.
We've gone to school for thingsthat we're probably not.
You know we're not making moneyfrom, we're not passionate
about, but you get caught inthis web of.
You know I went to school and I, you know, make an X amount of
money.
I don't like what I'm doing,but I got a family to support,
(40:58):
and so to make that shift isreally hard to say.
You know what I don't want to do?
Marketing.
I want to be in the automotiveindustry, but I have no
experience there, but I'm reallypassionate about it.
That takes faith.
It takes faith to break out ofthat, you know, and doing
something that you feelfulfilled in Cause in God's
economy.
I kind of think about it.
I mean, I really don't knowGod's economy, honestly, but I
think about it of you know, I'mput on this planet for a purpose
(41:20):
to glorify him and I want tofeel fulfilled through that.
And through that fulfillment,if I stay in that industry long
enough and I'm really in what Ifeel fulfilled about, I will
become an expert in and themoney will just follow.
Chris Grainger (41:35):
Right, that's right, it's just that freedom
100, 100.
Dave Jones (41:41):
Yeah, and that's tough man.
That's easy for me to say, butthat's tough to really scale
back and go.
Man, I don't like what I do andI need to change that's tough,
right?
Chris Grainger (41:54):
yeah, because of your point.
Like I mean, when you made thatshift I don't know what you
were making at your fox job, butthat's tough psychology to do.
Moving forward.
Dave Jones (42:14):
I didn't know at the time.
I mean, my wife was, you know,she was a perfusionist, she was
running the heart and lungmachine during open heart
surgery, so she was making okaymoney, so we really didn't need
my income.
I mean, I look back on that andthink what a blessing that was,
because I can figure out mystuff for three years while
she's supporting me, you know.
And so really I mean it'seasier as a you know dink dual
income.
And so really I mean it'seasier as a you know dink dual
(42:36):
income, no kids, but like aslike even harder if you've got
three kids, yeah, you know, andso that's, that's, that's some
faith man, right, and I will saythis, though like I do believe
that God is sovereign and thatGod, if God has a vision in your
heart that you're notfulfilling, you know he is
(42:56):
putting the resources around youto fulfill that vision.
You're just numb to thoseresources.
You're not seeing them aroundyou.
That's where you have to peelthat back and start.
You know, looking at yourselfand your relationship with God.
I say that that I do that.
You know I'd always look at myrelationship with God.
You know I'm not saying it fromlike know you're doing
(43:16):
something bad.
We all have to look at ourrelationship with god that's
right and and figure out ifwe're doing his will well, david
, I've definitely I've learned alot from you in this.
Chris Grainger (43:30):
Before we wrap up, though, let's, let's have
some fun.
Just do a little quicklightning round at the end,
since, yeah, you're, you're ahockey guy, you're still going
fast, fast anyway, so thisshould be pretty easy for you.
Let's do it.
What's the hobby, man?
You've already mentioned golf,so we're going to take that off
the table.
What's another hobby that youenjoy doing for fun, man?
Dave Jones (43:50):
I read psychology books.
I know it doesn't sound fun butI read.
Chris Grainger (43:54):
But that's fun to you, yeah.
Dave Jones (43:57):
Wow Okay, I love human behavior.
I love to get my hands on it.
Chris Grainger (44:01):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's pretty cool,though, man.
That's awesome, yeah.
So what about favorite food?
You mentioned you're fromPennsylvania originally, is that
what you said?
But now you're back in NorthCarolina, so what's your go-to?
Dave Jones (44:16):
My go-to probably steak and a sweet potato.
Chris Grainger (44:20):
And sweet potato my man, yeah, that's it.
North Carolina man.
This is where most of the sweetpotatoes come from.
That's it that barbecue I love.
I can barbecue, man I got asmoker out back, oh yeah.
Dave Jones (44:32):
I love my barbecue as well.
Chris Grainger (44:33):
Well, since your name is super Dave, like I
gotta, I gotta find out.
Like so, if you, if you couldhave a superpower, which one
would it be and how would youuse it?
Dave Jones (44:41):
Oh my gosh, what a great question there is this.
I mean, I talked about this acouple of years ago.
Um, the superpower that I wouldwant would be, um, uh, the
(45:02):
avoidance of accidents avoidanceof accidents like on the road
or just in general anywhere Icouldn't get in trouble okay,
okay, gotcha that would be apretty useful yeah.
So riding a bike, getting in acrash, jumping off a building,
(45:23):
um uh, boating getting on aladder, like the avoidance of
trouble, I would have an innateability to say don't do that.
Chris Grainger (45:36):
That's it, man.
That's it.
What's your favorite go-tomovie?
Pursuit of Happiness.
Oh, that's a good one, nice.
Nice and 300.'s a good one,nice, nice.
Dave Jones (45:50):
What's 300?
I like 300 to 300.
Oh my man 300.
Chris Grainger (45:54):
Gotta love that one.
Gotta love that one.
What's something you'restruggling with right now?
Dave Jones (46:01):
Um, I talk about this a lot actually, so I have
this acronym that I came up with.
It's called flap, flapap, flap,f-l-a-p.
(46:34):
So fear, lust, anger, pride,and so I struggle with two of
those probably every day, andfor me it was never.
It's never been sexual lust,it's been possessions.
You know like lustingpossessions, and I've really
really tried to work hard onthat.
So you know a house, a car, aboat, even down to like last
night, like I was just lookingat something to clean my car.
You know like a foam bottle.
You know like the spray foamwhere you put all the foam on.
(46:54):
It's supposed to be like I'mlike I need a new bottle of that
.
I'm like, don't, I don't needthat stupid thing.
You know, there, you go thereyou go.
So I struggle with that and Irecognize that that it could get
me in trouble and it hasn't,but I struggle there.
Chris Grainger (47:12):
Appreciate your honesty with that man when you
think about God.
What's your favorite thingabout it?
Dave Jones (47:20):
The honest, I really , I really like I love going to
the lake and I love just seeingthe mountains in the water and I
just I probably in my mind,have ventured into about 10% of
the awesomeness of God and Iwant more of it.
I want to see more of it.
Amen, yeah.
Chris Grainger (47:43):
What about a slip at 180?
What's your least favoritething about?
The evil one About.
Dave Jones (47:50):
Satan.
You're breaking up there aboutthing about the evil one about
Satan.
You're breaking up there aboutwhat?
The evil one about Satan?
Yeah, my least favorite or mostfavorite, Least favorite.
Chris Grainger (47:59):
Least favorite about Satan.
Dave Jones (48:04):
Basically, what do you hate the most about him?
You know, I just don't thinkthere's a whole lot of
creativity there.
Like he tries to come out asthe same old stuff and I'm like,
like can you get creative?
Like you're not going to get meto that and I don't want that.
I don't want him to getcreative.
But I'm just saying like it'sthe same stuff over and over.
(48:27):
It's the flap, the fear, lust,anger, pride, right, this is my
pride.
I recognize it.
I'm sorry, lord, I need to getrid of it.
I need to.
You know, humble myself, it'sthe same stuff.
Chris Grainger (48:44):
Amen.
Well, Dave, what do you hopethe guys listening remember the
most from our conversation today?
Dave Jones (48:50):
What do you hope the guys listening remember the
most from our conversation today?
I hope to just know that youknow whatever you're chasing out
there, that it's worth chasingIf you feel like you're in God's
will and you're chasing God andtrying to glorify him.
Stay strong man.
Stay in the process.
We need more of you.
There's going to be less andless, and there are less and
less of glorify him.
Stay, stay, strong man.
Stay in the process.
We need more of you.
There's going to be less andless and there are less and less
(49:11):
of us out there.
I want to encourage you to tostep out on faith.
You know, hopefully they seethat in my story, that you know
it was a faith journey and andthat, um, you know I'm
constantly working on myself andjust want to encourage them to
do the same.
Chris Grainger (49:28):
Amen, bro, amen.
Where do you want to send thelisteners to connect with you,
all the wonderful things you'redoing, that you're building to
serve others?
Dave Jones (49:37):
I think just go to emmasgoodcom.
There's lots of great resourceson there.
We're a Christian agency, butI've done a reasonably good job
of building up my blogs and someR7 podcasts over the years.
Chris Grainger (49:52):
Nice, all right, we'll make sure that links in
the show notes for you guys.
So, dave, anything else you'dlike to share today?
Dave Jones (49:57):
I just really appreciate you, chris, and thank
you for being patient with me,and I really enjoyed talking to
you, and so thank you for havingme align with you Absolutely.
Chris Grainger (50:06):
It's been an honor.
You have a great day, all right, thanks.
All right, guys.
I told you it was going to be afun one.
So thank you for Dave forcoming on.
Question of the week this week,fellas, is what area of life
feels most directionless for youright now?
We all have that area.
(50:27):
Very rarely are all eightcylinders firing correctly,
right.
Something's usually off.
So just recognize what that isand then put some time and some
thought into course correction,okay.
So really enjoy thatconversation with Dave.
That flap acronym fear, lust,anger, pride I'm definitely
(50:47):
going to remember that one.
Maybe you will as well Rememberthat's the lies of the evil one
.
That's the way he trips us upis hitting us focused in one of
those areas.
Okay, so if you enjoyed this,share this out with others, give
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(51:13):
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(51:56):
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I'm your host, chris Granger.
Let's jump in.
All right, fellas, this is yourmeat episode.
Let's get right into it, okay?
So the scripture of the weekthis week is in the book of
Proverbs, the 29th proverb, the18th verse.
It says where there is novision, the people perish, but
he that keepeth the law happy ishe.
(00:25):
So, fellas, take some time.
If you want to know a littlebit more about how to simplify
and apply that one verse to yourlife, go back one of your
podcast feed to the spiritualkickoff episode for this week.
I took some time to unpack thatat length, hopefully to give
you some insights and some waysto take that scripture and walk
it out.
And if you're looking for waysto do that, monday through
(00:46):
Friday, the Lion Within us, wehave what we call our daily
spiritual kickoff.
It's a great way to get yourday started and guess what?
It's completely free.
So head over to thelionwithinusto get started for today.
Okay, all right, fellas.
Well, this is going to be a funone.
This is Dave Jones, affectuallytoday.
Okay, all right, fellas.
Well, this is going to be a funone.
This is Dave Jones,affectionately known as Super
(01:07):
Dave.
You'll find out about that onceyou get into the conversation,
but he has a really rare combohe was a professional athlete,
he served in the military and hespent a lot of time studying
psychology.
This is a really funconversation.
He played pro hockey in Europe,fellas, and really just a good
(01:27):
conversation around.
What is it like to be a Christfollower?
What does it look like in themarket so far as those out there
that are wanting to serveChrist in a meaningful way, how
can we actually bring the bestversion of ourselves into the
work that we do?
And it's just a really fun,insightful conversation.
Hopefully you guys are going toenjoy this one.
He actually lives in NorthCarolina, so we have that in
(01:49):
common as well.
He's actually right down theroad from where our farm is here
in North Carolina.
So fun guy, lots of energy,lots of insights.
So enjoy this conversation withDave Jones.
Dave, welcome to the LionWithin Us.
How are you doing today?
Dave Jones (02:06):
I'm doing awesome.
Thanks for having me today, man.
I'm super excited to talk toyou.
Chris Grainger (02:10):
For sure, for sure.
I mean we always like to startthe show with.
You know pretty easy to get ourlisteners to know you.
So what's something fun aboutyou that maybe not many people
know about?
Dave Jones (02:21):
What's something fun .
My nickname is Super Dave.
Super Dave, and why is that so?
Years ago I did pretty well athockey.
I played pro hockey in Europeand after my hockey career I,
you know, sort of didn't doanything.
And then I got really fat,chris, I just got overweight,
(02:45):
and so I said, you know what, Ineed to do something about this.
So I, I joined CrossFit and, um, I did really well with
CrossFit and, uh, the local boxjust gave me the name Super Dave
.
And because I have the mostcommon name in the world, dave
Jones, it's just easier to goplaces and order things.
And you know the dry cleaners,all the Dave Jones you know,
(03:07):
even in my, you know my golfclub.
You know like there's three ofus.
So it's hey, I'm playing golfwith super Dave today, or hey,
this is super Dave's meal.
So it was funny.
Uh, last week, um, or lastweekend, we were at the golf
course and and the pro was likeboth my kids were there and
they're like you call your dadsuper.
(03:29):
It's kind of weird.
So my kids call me super thereyou go.
Chris Grainger (03:34):
That's pretty good.
Well, I love to hear your story, your testimony, particularly
how you came to know Christ man.
So get our listeners up tospeed.
Dave Jones (03:44):
Yeah.
So, like I was saying I did,yeah, so, um, so, like I was
saying, I did pretty well athockey in high school.
I won a couple of statechampionships and then I went on
to Ottawa to play and then andthen to um, cleveland and then
overseas in Europe.
But the first year I won thestate championship, um, I was uh
, 16.
And, uh, after that it was abig celebration.
(04:08):
I went out and got drunk.
I mean, I got drunk really bad,and my brother, who is
attending Moody Bible Institute,was coming home that weekend.
It was really providential andI, just when I tell this story,
I can remember myself laying onthe bed and just my head was
just throbbing and my brothercame in and said hey, man, you
want to live like this?
And I was like no.
And he said do you want toreceive Jesus as your Lord and
(04:29):
savior?
I'm like yes, and so Iconfessed right there.
Um, wow, I will say that I was16 and you know it took about
four years for that seed toreally, you know, sit there and
it really started taking offwhen I was 21, 22.
Chris Grainger (04:47):
Sure, I'm sure.
I mean, I've never playedhockey, but I've been around a
lot of other sports and I'm sure, as you elevate, in hockey too
it's very secular.
So I mean, how was it walkingthat that discipleship journey
out?
You know, playing a sportaround lots of temptations.
Dave Jones (05:05):
Yeah, I mean that's, that's really kind of when I my
career started powering down iswhen my relationship with
Christ started powering up.
Okay, well, quite honestly,because you know, of all the
sports you know, I would sayhockey is the darkest sport.
Chris Grainger (05:20):
Why is that?
I'm curious, that's, that'sinteresting.
Dave Jones (05:23):
Yeah, um, I don't know why.
I mean, I have some ideas why,but I just think that you know,
it's a very violent sport.
It's not supported very wellwith, you know, christians, you
know, whereas football there'sjust a very stronger population
of Christians, whereas hockeycomes from the Eastern Europe
(05:46):
game, you know, from Canada,it's not really an American game
and so, um, you know, it's just, it's just a dark sport there's
no way to say so.
It's just, it's just not now.
I think it's gotten better, youknow, with FCA and Hockey
Ministries International.
You know they're involved andLiberty University is, you know
they're involved and but libertyuniversity is, you know, is out
there, you know, um, along withum, grand canyon university.
(06:09):
So there's some otheruniversities coming along that
are bethel and minnesota, thatare, you know, a faith-based or
a methodist background, thathappen to play hockey yeah, yeah
, I mean for me.
Chris Grainger (06:21):
I mean I grew up in the south and we didn't have
hockey until the carolina gotour team you and now we have the
Canes, but I mean, still it's.
It seems somewhat foreign to meas someone who just never, I
just never had that opportunityto play the game, and it just
wasn't something that we playedin the South.
So how did you get introducedto it?
Dave Jones (06:41):
So I grew up in northwest Pennsylvania.
My brother was a goalie.
He was nine years older than meand um, my brother, um, you
know, he got in trouble a lotand so he was, you know, in my
mind he was seeking attentionthat way and I didn't really
want to do it that way.
So I just, I don't know, I wasfive, six, seven, I, I didn't
have a you know subliminalthought for sure, but I just
(07:03):
started scoring goals and peoplegave me accolades for that, so
I thought I'll just try to scoremore goals, right, so it became
something positive, you know.
That's cool man, that's awesome.
Chris Grainger (07:16):
Well, I know you said, after your hockey is when
things really ramped up withChrist, I'm assuming, within
your work as well.
So like how did you?
You know, what did that look?
Dave Jones (07:28):
like Kind of walk us into the down that path.
Yeah, so I I left, uh, I leftGermany, I went and coached out
in Colorado and I and I cameback my fiance wife now of 25
years, Um, she got a job inGreenville, North Carolina, Okay
, and uh, and so it was makingtwice what I was making as a
youth hockey coach, and so wejust trekked across the country
(07:48):
from Denver to Greenville and Itook a job with Fox TV and it's
the first time I've ever beenreally in a cubicle and honestly
, Chris, I was really justchallenging my life and asking
the Lord, like, what do you wantto do with it?
Because this sucks.
(08:08):
Like I don't want to sit in thiscubicle and I said a prayer,
right there at my desk, and Ifound myself, you know, looking
at a list of Christians on theTV station and I didn't hear an
audible voice.
But I just had the idea of like, okay, I'll start an ad agency,
what do I call it?
And immediately marketingministries came to mind and I
(08:29):
thought that was the dumbestname.
Like marketing and ministries,like Lord, this is like two
common names.
And so I didn't know what to do.
So I got a lawyer and thelawyer, you know, did a search
and, sure enough, it wasavailable.
And so I'm like wow, this wasn'tsuch a dumb idea, yeah.
Chris Grainger (08:45):
Yeah.
Dave Jones (08:47):
And so I just started the company in November
2001.
I had no idea what I was doing.
I just, I think probably myhockey background, you know.
It was just like, okay, go getsome clients.
I went back to that list of allI think there were.
I think there were 30 clientson that list.
I went to them in June and saidI'm going to start this agency
(09:08):
called Marketing Ministries.
I think like 27 of them saidwe're with you.
Chris Grainger (09:11):
I'm like awesome .
Dave Jones (09:14):
So I started the company in January.
November I registered, but inJanuary is when I really started
.
It Went back to that list,chris, and they all looked at me
like a cow at a new gate.
They're like what?
Like no, we're not with youReally.
So they backed off.
They backed off.
I had three of those clients.
(09:35):
Two of them are still with metoday.
That first year I did $15,000of revenue and I made 15%.
Wow, yeah.
Second year, 30,000 of revenueand I made 15%.
Second year, $30,000, 15%.
Third year, I think it was upto $200,000.
I made 15%.
15% of $200,000 is $30,000 ayear.
(09:58):
I was crushing it, man, takingthe world on fire.
In year three, year fourdoubled and year five it doubled
, and then I would never lookback, right.
Chris Grainger (10:11):
Yeah, and that's probably the lesson a lot of
small business owners need tohear too.
Like I mean, usually the quickwins just aren't there.
Dave Jones (10:21):
At least that's not what your experience and what I
hear from many it's taken me 25years now to be an overnight
success.
Right, right yeah.
Yeah, that's been Go aheadSorry.
Chris Grainger (10:34):
I would say speak to the guy listening, man.
I just finished writing anarticle on this and I just don't
like, since you started, sinceyou went down this path, it's
worth exploring.
I met with an executive severalyears ago and she's, and so
this is a fortune five, probablyfortune 100 company actually.
She was pretty high up, but shetold me something that stuck
with me and she said think big,act small.
(10:56):
And she was just like that iswhere most people get it wrong
in business.
Is they really just get caughtin the beehives and chasing that
versus taking the diligentsteps that God has put in front
of us to do each and every day?
So maybe the year one, year two, walk us through some of that,
those small steps that you weretaking just to be, you know,
(11:16):
laying the path and staying onthe path that God's called you
to do.
Dave Jones (11:20):
Yeah.
So you know, I have mydoctorate in sport and
performance psychology and so I,when I get asked this question,
I go back to me and the me backthen was not, I didn't.
I knew I didn't like me, like Ihad a poor self image.
(11:42):
I tore down people.
I thought the more I tore downpeople, the better I would be.
You know, you've probably beenin some room with some of those
people, like they just, and so Iwas one of those.
My self image I had two slapshots in the face, broke my nose
in three different directions,like I had 56 stitches in my
face, like I just really didn'tlike who I was.
And I am so thankful for thismentor who I met in a Taco Bell
(12:04):
in Wilson, north Carolina, andhe basically we just became
friends and he said you know, ifyou don't like who you are,
here's 30 books for you to readin the next two years.
At the time, television was howwe consume media.
He said turn off the TV andread these books.
And I did, yeah.
Chris Grainger (12:28):
I'm curious.
I'm finding your mentor at TacoBell Wilson, like I've been.
I'm in North Carolina, I livein North Carolina.
Dave Jones (12:34):
For those who don't know.
Chris Grainger (12:35):
there's nothing in Wilson, so like how'd you
find this guy at?
Dave Jones (12:40):
Wilson, I was.
I was working for Fox TV and Iwas calling on clients to get
business to advertise on thestation local businesses, I just
happened to be in Taco Bell andyou just struck up a
conversation with this guy.
Chris Grainger (12:54):
Yeah, man, that's incredible.
It sounds like God was in thatmoment big time.
Dave Jones (13:00):
Or 1,000%.
I don't believe in coincidenceat all.
It was ordained man for sure.
We're still friends today.
He just mentored me along andjust really show, show me what
it meant to be a a man of God,yeah.
Chris Grainger (13:17):
Wow.
So what was some of the booksthat you remember the most or
some of the things from?
Do you remember anything fromthose for that list?
Dave Jones (13:25):
Oh yeah, Um, let's see Maximize manhood, how to
think and grow rich.
Chris Grainger (13:32):
Yeah.
Dave Jones (13:33):
Um, how to win friends and influence people.
Um, uh, um, um.
Did I say maximize manhood, theFive Love Languages.
Chris Grainger (13:50):
Oh, gary, yeah, yeah.
Dave Jones (13:53):
The.
Chris Grainger (13:53):
Basic Tenets of Christianity what's that?
So we've had Gary on the showbefore.
He's awesome yeah.
Dave Jones (14:02):
Rich Dad, Poor Dad.
Rich God, Poor God, Nice yeah.
Chris Grainger (14:09):
So this guy gave you a salient set of books that
definitely were very impactful,yeah.
Dave Jones (14:15):
Who Moved my Cheese.
That was a big one that one got.
Who Moved my Cheese got methrough COVID.
Chris Grainger (14:21):
How's that?
I mean?
First of all, let's take abreak, then you can come back,
explain what who Moved my Cheeseis for the guys who haven't
read it before, and then diveinto what that meant for you at
COVID.
We'll be right back.
Guys, I've got something big toshare.
We're making a major shiftbecause we know the battle is
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(14:45):
For too long, guys have beentrying to carry the weight alone
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world that demands strength butoffers no place to rest.
We see it, we've lived it, andthat's exactly why we built our
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(15:06):
And starting now, we're makingit easier than ever to step in.
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That means, for less than thecost of a drive-thru lunch, you
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Inside you'll find access toour daily spiritual kickoffs
every Monday through Friday, ourLion Lunches, our Bible Studies
, our Friday Forge Gatheringsall that and so much more.
(15:30):
Every man needs a stronghold andyou don't have to fight alone.
If you've been waiting for theright time to jump in, this is
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Go to thelionwithinus and jointhe community and see for
yourself what happens when irontruly sharpens iron.
All right, dave, so kind ofexplain, you know, first of all,
(15:51):
just the premise of who Movedmy Cheese is a great book.
Just kind of get the guys up tospeed on that one and then like
, how did that impact you inthis season of COVID?
Dave Jones (15:59):
Yeah, so who Moved my Cheese is about Hem and Haw
and Sniff and Scurry, and sowhat they do?
They live in this maze andevery day Hem and Haw go to the
same corner and Sniff and Scurrygo to the same corner.
I think Hem and Haw were miceand Sniff and Scurry were like
little people, I think that wasthe anyway.
(16:19):
So they all go to the samecorner.
But one day someone moves thecheese and so Sniff and Scurry
say somebody moved the cheese,let's go throughout, let's go
look for other cheese, WhereasHem and Haw they stick around
and they basically Hem and Haw.
They go from day to day going.
(16:40):
Somebody's going to bring thecheese, Maybe the cheese is
behind the wall, Maybe we missedit, Maybe we'll just wait and
see and just say hem and haw,Whereas sniff and scurry man,
they're finding crumbs.
You know it's not a big chunkof cheese, but they're finding
crumbs in these different partsof the maze and they end up
surviving and hem and haw do not, because they hem and haw.
(17:04):
And so how that got me throughCOVID is, you know, the cheese
moved during COVID 100%, and so,like this may not be popular,
but the church shut down andthey were hem and haw, they were
not sniffing scurry, and Ithink today we're still feeling
(17:27):
that.
Where people figured out how todo community without the church
, because the church wasn'tthere for them, they bent the
knee under the safety securityguise of the government and I
think people caught on to that.
That's just one example, and so,as a local business owner, you
couldn't bend a knee to safetyand security, which we all know
(17:49):
now was not safe or secure.
It was the opposite was safeand secure.
And so you had to figure outhow to change your business
model and survive, and so youhad to be sniff and scurry.
Chris Grainger (18:02):
So practically for you.
What did that?
Dave Jones (18:04):
look like.
It meant serve unconditionally.
It meant be creative.
It meant ask questions of howcan we change your business
model, how can we figure out howto make this work?
It was not.
Well, let's shut down.
Everybody go home.
We're not going to do anything.
(18:24):
It's safe for you to be at home.
Uh-uh, we are sniffing, scurry.
My whole staff read the book.
We said, hey, we're going to doanything.
It's safe for you to be at home.
We are sniff and scurry.
My whole staff read the book.
We said, hey, we're going to besniff and scurry.
We don't know the answer, butwe're going to ask questions.
We're going to help peoplefigure out a business model that
works, and we are going to behere.
Chris Grainger (18:41):
I remember back during that time, particularly
for marketing, there were areasthat many businesses looked at,
as you know, non-essential.
They pulled a lot of thatfunding back.
So I'm sure for you guys it wasit was, you know, we got to
make a pivot.
We got to make a pivot now.
Dave Jones (18:58):
You know, on top of that, chris, google basically
said church was a hate speech.
So if you're running aChristian agency and you know
you have nonprofits that you'remarketing and they're saying
that everything within theChristian space is hate speech,
how are you going to use Google,you know?
And so we had to come up with.
You know, if church is hatespeech and they're you know,
(19:20):
remember they were shadowbanning and deplatforming you
know.
And so we we had to say, okay,let join us in community instead
of join us at this church.
So we had to change thelanguage.
We had to be sniff and skirt.
Chris Grainger (19:34):
That's crazy.
So the marketing agency?
So is your primary demographic?
Are you working with ministries, churches, 501c3s, things like
that?
From the kingdom impactstandpoint?
Dave Jones (19:49):
That's exactly it.
So our vertical is Jesus.
If clients are, you know,trying to glorify the Lord with
their talents and theirabilities in some space, whether
they're a Christian businessowner with a secular business or
there's, you know there's aministry, whether it's a church
or just you know ministry outthere, you know, trying to raise
donations for humanitariansupport, whatever it is that's
(20:12):
our vertical and we're, to myknowledge, we're one of four
agencies and we're the oldestright now in the space.
Really wow congratulations, manthanks.
Chris Grainger (20:22):
It's hard for me to say that that we're the
oldest in the Christianmarketing space, really, because
I know where I came from whatdo you see that's working the
most right now, from your end,for these churches, for these
organizations, to get awarenessto people out there,
particularly guys.
Speak to the guys out there.
(20:43):
What's working?
Dave Jones (20:45):
Yeah, so I'm just going to give a little
background here.
This is my 25th year in thisspace.
I can remember when you know,television was an undisputed
heavyweight champion when itcomes to reaching the most
amount of people for the leastamount of money.
Television was it.
You know there was a time whereemail was it Direct mail?
(21:05):
Going way back, direct mail wasit Yellow pages?
I remember having conversationswith yellow pages in the penny
saver, like that was you know,business off that today it's
influencers.
There is a big shift in legacymedia right now.
So those of you't know, legacymedia is like the traditional
(21:27):
media, like ABC, nbc, cbs.
You know those legacy broadcaststations.
I suspect five to seven yearsfrom now those won't be around
Because all these other channelsand influencers and podcasts
are popping up like your podcast, and influencers and podcasts
(21:48):
are popping up like your podcast.
You know, like people arelistening and consuming you and
your guests versus consumingLate Night with Jimmy Fallon.
That's right.
And so you're getting the medianow and you're getting what you
want.
Broadcast media was just that.
There was a time I think you andI are probably right around the
same age I'm 51.
(22:08):
There was a time when you knowthere was NBC, abc and CBS, and
you remember when Fox came andthey're like Fox.
There's gonna be no space forFox cartoons in prime time.
That'll never work.
And here we are with theSimpsons 20 some years later.
Right, that are still goingstrong.
And so you had to take in theBrady Bunch, right, you had to
(22:31):
take in, like these, legacymedia.
Now you know there is no suchthing as broadcast media.
You know you can watch the NHLNetwork.
You don't have to watch ESPN,you know.
And so with influencers, what'sinteresting?
One, it's trackable so you cancancel.
Two, there's a built-in trustalready there.
(22:52):
So people that are watchingyour podcast, they believe you,
chris.
And so marketers that come in,christian marketers, come in and
say, okay, chris is promotingthis, I believe what he's saying
.
Therefore, I'm more likely tobuy the product or invest in the
product or donate to theministry.
So, influencers, we spendprobably a million and a half a
(23:16):
month in influencers right nowthrough 38 to 41 different
clients around the world thatare looking for donation,
purchase a product.
You know, whatever it is,influencers are working.
Chris Grainger (23:30):
Wow, wow.
So I mean, and that's, you'reseeing that as an impact for
like churches directly?
Then, huh, so an influencertalks about the mission or the
organization or whatever it maybe, and then that gives them a
lot of I guess, a lot of trafficand eyeballs Built in trust.
Dave Jones (23:48):
Yeah, versus, you know it airing on Fox TV and
it's a general commercial Mm-hmm, you know Wow.
Chris Grainger (23:57):
In the Christian space.
How do you find the influencers?
What are they doing that worksthe best?
That are gaining the most trust?
Is it podcasts?
Is it YouTube?
Is it other types of media.
Dave Jones (24:09):
Rumble Rumble's a good place.
The Blaze Network is a goodplace.
Oh yeah, salem's a good place.
You know there's also now likewe had a meeting, you know, a
couple weeks ago, withinfluencers in the gun space,
you know, just doing gunpodcasts, you know.
(24:29):
So if you're a conservative,you know, if you're a right-wing
, bible toting gun, gun totingChristian right.
Conservative, you know having agun podcaster say, hey, I
believe in this ministry.
It's a built in trust.
Chris Grainger (24:48):
Wow, that's awesome.
What about, like, we have acouple?
Well, I'm in North Carolina,are you out of North Carolina as
well?
I'm in Raleigh, yeah, okay.
Well, I'm right up the roadfrom you, so I'm about 30
minutes from Raleigh.
So we have a megachurch inRaleigh with the Summit Church.
I'm sure there's other megchurch, there's other mega
churches out there.
What do you see?
(25:08):
Is anything from the megachurch standpoint that you see
that you're leveraging, or isthat because I hear good and bad
from you know the mega churchmodel for so far as capturing
attention for people?
Dave Jones (25:23):
Are we talking marketing or just straight up
Christianity in general?
Chris Grainger (25:30):
Marketing mainly .
But I'm also just curious justin your personal take on the
megachurch because you'reheavily involved in it sounds
like lots of differentministries out there, so I know
there's lots of pros and cons.
I'm just curious on just yourpersonal position as well.
Dave Jones (25:48):
Okay.
So the mega church um, I willsay that barna does really good
research in this area on megachurches.
So I'm definitely not like aexpert on this, but you know, I
would encourage listeners to,you know, consume some barna
research.
The latest that I read is thatchurch attendance is down but
(26:11):
Christianity is up.
So people are, people aregetting the word of God.
They're just not doing it in atraditional way.
So the mega church ministries,you know, you know there's.
I would say that they'resomewhat working.
You know, personally, I just Ithink that the I'm not sure I
(26:40):
want to say this.
This is why I'm hesitating.
I've always been opposed to rows.
I like tables.
Okay, yeah, I don't know.
So when you're talking aboutrows, it's a one-way dialogue,
when you're talking about tables, it's a collaboration, it's a
(27:03):
conversation, and so I justdon't know that we consume that
way anymore.
We interact, we engage, we makecomments, we share, we follow,
we like Right, we share, wefollow, we like Right.
And so, you know, the model ofthe church to me goes back to,
you know, christ and what he did.
(27:25):
I mean, he didn't put up abuilding, did he?
He walked and he talked and hepreached and he engaged and he
preached and he engaged.
Chris Grainger (27:38):
Yeah, even the early Acts, the model of the
church in the book of Actsspeaks about, you know,
gathering in homes and families,coming together and doing life,
and that definitely leads to,like you said, genuine
conversations, reflections,wrestling with different topics,
you know, in a biblical way,because I mean, there's texts
(27:59):
out there that I wrestle withall the time, but it does me
much better.
I think that's what works forus at the Lion, the way we do it
, because we come together insuch a format.
It's not one of us preachingdown to them all, it's all of us
.
Okay, collectively, ephesians 6.
Let's talk about this togetherand see, you know, what's the
Spirit showing you?
Okay, well, it's the Spiritshowing you and, man, it has
(28:20):
been incredible to see thedifferent types of revelations
that we each individually see,but collectively, you bring that
thought process together, man,there's some pretty incredible
things going to happen.
Dave Jones (28:32):
It's powerful, right , I mean there's a space for
group therapy.
That's powerful, right, I meanthere's a space for group
therapy.
That's the church it's notdesigned to do, to collaborate.
I mean you could say, well, wehave small groups.
Okay, yeah, you have smallgroups.
That's great, that's awesome,but the business model of the
church it just I don't know, tome it doesn't work.
(28:56):
The churches that I've beeninvolved, there's usually
somebody I call it.
Just, I don't know, to me itdoesn't work.
When the churches that I'vebeen involved, there's usually
somebody.
I call him big C, you knowthere's somebody in the
marketplace that is like fundingit Right.
And then little C's the church,where it's like, okay, the
tithes and offerings are, youknow, part of keeping the lights
on, but if there's any majorlike you know thing you want to
(29:18):
do, you've got to bring inlittle C to start it and to
maintain it and so, yeah.
So I was saying there's,there's a spot for group therapy
.
Yeah, I mean, I think you're,you're seeing it, yeah, yeah.
Chris Grainger (29:36):
And look at the stats on like the guys in the
churches too.
I mean, you're all over it.
I think there's something to besaid about you know sitting
down and feel like you're being,you know, told everything
you're doing wrong for 30minutes a week and singing songs
that make it sound like Jesusis your boyfriend and like some
of that stuff just turns off somany guys, man.
(29:56):
It's like wait a minute now,like friend and like some of
that stuff just turns off somany guys.
Man, it's like wait a minutenow, like that's not gonna get
it.
Or we say a men's group andthat men's group gets together,
has a sausage biscuit every, youknow, every third saturday, and
then when there's a speaker, uh, and then that's it.
I mean, but we're not actuallyhaving anything deeper than
surface level conversations anduntil that happens, uh, we're
just spinning the wheels.
Dave Jones (30:15):
We that's right.
Chris Grainger (30:16):
We're just pretending.
Dave Jones (30:24):
What I'm most fired up right now about and I've been
here for about two years- ismessaging, messaging, okay,
messaging.
Chris Grainger (30:30):
So if I were to say, chris, hold on for a second
, dave, let's take a quick breakand come back and let you
unpack that.
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(31:17):
All right, dave.
So you said you're fired up,which really got my my ears.
Then you said messaging.
Dave Jones (31:26):
So now, like, explain that for us, unpack that
yeah, if I were to say to youhey, chris, you need to, you
need to become a fully devotedfollower of Jesus Christ.
Okay, if we were to unpack thatyou don't know what that means
and I don't know what that meansand I'm telling you that you
(31:48):
need to do that, right?
So it really doesn't take usanywhere.
In fact, it's me telling youwhat to do, and so it perhaps
puts a wall between us, becausenow, unasked for advice is
criticism, and so now you'regoing.
Who is this guy to tell me Ineed to be a fully devoted
follower of Jesus Christ, right?
(32:10):
Yep, yep, so little differencehere.
So scenario B is hey, chris, Iwant to explore what it looks
like with you to become a fullydevoted follower of Jesus Christ
.
See the difference?
Oh, yeah.
Or, hey, chris, I want toexplore the Bible with you.
(32:32):
I want to learn.
Hey, chris, I want to explore,I want to discover what it means
to be a man of God with you.
I want to learn acres.
I want to explore, I want todiscover what it means to be a
man of god with you.
Can we do?
Chris Grainger (32:42):
that together that invitation, right I'm
curious to get your take on this, because you, man, when you
said messaging, I was thinkingabout it because my writing
coach, when I first startedwriting, he kept talking to me
he's like you write too much incommand style, but you gotta
stop that.
He's like, so you're gonna drawpeople in with reflection and
(33:06):
where you're.
You know, here's the way I seethe world.
What, what?
Here's some things I'veexperienced here.
I've been reflecting on thisand I will tell you just by
looking at the statistics.
But I mean, he's right.
When we made that change, ouremail list went up, our
subscribers went up, ourcommunity members went up.
Youversion reached out to usand said hey, you know, we want
(33:28):
more of what you're doing.
You know we have 40 somethingthousand followers on YouVersion
.
Now it's just, it's been crazywith that little change where
we're not saying do this or orburn Like that's not the message
, man.
The message is like likeliterally most of the writing
now.
It's like, all right, here'show I have screwed up, here's
how much it hurt and here's whatI've learned from it.
(33:49):
And if it's helpful to you,like, roll with it, bro, and if
it's not, hey, check somebodyelse out.
But I mean, I don't know.
Just that change.
And when you said messaging,that authenticity comes to mind
for me.
I don't know if that's whatyou're seeing or not.
Dave Jones (34:03):
Yeah, so the hierarchy which I think you're
referring to is the hierarchicalmessaging, like I am telling
you what you need to do, right,like that doesn't work.
It doesn't work anymore.
So Donald Miller, many yearsago, came out with StoryBrand
and one of the great things hesaid was the organization is no
longer the hero, the client, thedonor, the first time guest.
(34:25):
They are the hero, you aretheir guide.
And so this you know how longI've been doing this nobody
cares, right, nobody cares.
You know how much you know it's.
It's more about what are youstruggling with, chris, and how
can you and I do it together?
(34:46):
So I've been using this analogylately, cause I like to play
golf and you know it's adifference of when you walk into
the golf, the country club, andthe doors swing open, there's
somebody there waiting to greetyou and says hey, chris, we
built this for everyone.
Come on in, there's a seat downthere somewhere.
(35:08):
Or scenario B is hey, chris, webuilt this place for you.
It's so good that you came back, man, we're excited to have you
and your family here.
You have your normal seat andthere's a waiter waiting for you
with, you know, your favoritedrink.
That's the difference.
Chris Grainger (35:28):
Yeah, that's incredible.
That's incredible.
So I mean, how do you thinkkind of take full circle back to
your church?
I mean, how do you think kindof take full circle back to your
church, how could they makesome small shifts to adapt that
type of model or messaging,rather, yeah.
Dave Jones (35:44):
So I would say we haven't talked about this.
Let me set it up for a second.
I would say lose the ORPs, theobligatory religious phraseology
.
When I bring this up in thechurch, you know, like meetings,
like the ORPs, they go, oh mygosh.
Yes, you know, transformingministries of the spirit of
excellence.
Nobody knows what you'retalking about.
(36:05):
Man, it's really cool messagingthat.
Everybody says that it's like,yeah, we don't know what we're
doing, you know.
So you got to lose that.
And it's really in theChristian community.
It's's really really hard to dobecause we like our
christianism, christianism, welove speaking that stuff.
Man, oh yeah, man, oh yeah.
So you know.
(36:26):
You kind of got a bullet downto what exactly it is that we're
struggling with.
I'll just, for example I'lljust one that's really easy is
stress.
Everybody's dealing with stressand being overwhelmed.
So you know, are you stressedand overwhelmed.
Chris Grainger (36:47):
Come join us in community today.
Dave Jones (36:51):
You know, it's very warm, it's very inviting, very
relatable.
Yeah, we're a church built onthe word of God.
We have a great worship, wehave children's ministries.
You know, god, we have a greatworship, we have children's
ministries.
You know, this is what I callmessaging that is commoditized.
Everybody's saying it.
Chris Grainger (37:07):
Tell me what's different about your church Go
ahead.
I said but it's easy for thepastor.
He doesn't offend anybody, hedoesn't have to worry about
stepping on any toes, and that'swhere I get fired up.
But yeah, keep going.
Dave Jones (37:20):
Group therapy, it's easy.
The church, so you know it'sjust got to lose the.
I lost my train of thoughtthere, sorry.
When we're talking aboutobligatory religious phraseology
, bringing it down to whatsomebody is struggling with,
(37:40):
nobody's resonating with.
You know, we have a pastor.
What kind of church?
Yeah, oh my gosh, my praise andworship team is amazing.
Right, nobody cares, right.
Chris Grainger (37:53):
Right, I mean the pastor that I connect most
with.
I mean he's out of Florida,pastor Joby Martin, and I think
the reason it's working isbecause his sermons are like
that Down to the lifeapplication, to what you're
seeing, to what you're feeling.
I mean, I've been on so manyruns, I listen to him when I'm
(38:13):
running every day, and it's just.
I've had so many moments oflike him when I'm running every
day.
Okay, and, and it's just, it'sjust.
I've had so many moments oflike, yep, that's me like I mean
he talks about anger and justgetting spewing out and it's
just good, I mean so.
But like he doesn't say likethat's you, he's.
He's saying like this is, this,is what I've experienced myself
.
And like when you hear that asa, as a, as someone listening to
(38:36):
obviously this man's followingwhat God's calling him to do,
like he's built so much trust inme, you know, just because of
his authenticity and hiswillingness to be vulnerable,
and I think, man, we just don'tsee that it's very rare.
I've never seen it in my localchurch, ever from the pulpit,
Like it just doesn't exist, man.
Dave Jones (38:57):
It's tough.
It's tough to find that.
It's awesome, that you foundthat.
It's great.
Um, yeah, so the messaging.
Messaging to me is everything.
Yeah, and how do we turn thelens to help people become the
best version of themselves?
To be, you know, fulfillingtheir God-given purpose.
(39:18):
And how do we become a VIP tothat process?
Like that fires me up from anorganizational level down to a
personal level.
Chris Grainger (39:29):
Speak to the guy out there.
You know who's.
Maybe he's not the owner of thebusiness.
He's just.
He's just working.
He's just there doing, doingwhat God's calling him to do
there.
How can he bring his personalfaith and let that be a bigger
part of his career?
What advice would you give thatguy?
Dave Jones (39:51):
I think it'd be the same advice I'd give somebody
who's a business owner.
Honestly, okay, to me it's notabout how you're creating income
, it's how you're glorifying theLord with your talents and your
abilities.
That's it.
That's it right.
How I create money doing thatis.
To me it's a byproduct.
(40:13):
The question that I have is thatthe world tells us to go to
school, get good grades, get ajob, learn a skill Right, and so
I think Gallup came out with apoll several years ago that 88%
of the US workforce isdisengaged at work.
(40:34):
So we're doing things that wedon't want to do.
We've gone to school for thingsthat we're probably not.
You know we're not making moneyfrom, we're not passionate
about, but you get caught inthis web of.
You know I went to school and I, you know, make an X amount of
money.
I don't like what I'm doing,but I got a family to support,
(40:58):
and so to make that shift isreally hard to say.
You know what I don't want to do?
Marketing.
I want to be in the automotiveindustry, but I have no
experience there, but I'm reallypassionate about it.
That takes faith.
It takes faith to break out ofthat, you know, and doing
something that you feelfulfilled in Cause in God's
economy.
I kind of think about it.
I mean, I really don't knowGod's economy, honestly, but I
think about it of you know, I'mput on this planet for a purpose
(41:20):
to glorify him and I want tofeel fulfilled through that.
And through that fulfillment,if I stay in that industry long
enough and I'm really in what Ifeel fulfilled about, I will
become an expert in and themoney will just follow.
Chris Grainger (41:35):
Right, that's right, it's just that freedom
100, 100.
Dave Jones (41:41):
Yeah, and that's tough man.
That's easy for me to say, butthat's tough to really scale
back and go.
Man, I don't like what I do andI need to change that's tough,
right?
Chris Grainger (41:54):
yeah, because of your point.
Like I mean, when you made thatshift I don't know what you
were making at your fox job, butthat's tough psychology to do.
Moving forward.
Dave Jones (42:14):
I didn't know at the time.
I mean, my wife was, you know,she was a perfusionist, she was
running the heart and lungmachine during open heart
surgery, so she was making okaymoney, so we really didn't need
my income.
I mean, I look back on that andthink what a blessing that was,
because I can figure out mystuff for three years while
she's supporting me, you know.
And so really I mean it'seasier as a you know dink dual
income.
And so really I mean it'seasier as a you know dink dual
(42:36):
income, no kids, but like aslike even harder if you've got
three kids, yeah, you know, andso that's, that's, that's some
faith man, right, and I will saythis, though like I do believe
that God is sovereign and thatGod, if God has a vision in your
heart that you're notfulfilling, you know he is
(42:56):
putting the resources around youto fulfill that vision.
You're just numb to thoseresources.
You're not seeing them aroundyou.
That's where you have to peelthat back and start.
You know, looking at yourselfand your relationship with God.
I say that that I do that.
You know I'd always look at myrelationship with God.
You know I'm not saying it fromlike know you're doing
(43:16):
something bad.
We all have to look at ourrelationship with god that's
right and and figure out ifwe're doing his will well, david
, I've definitely I've learned alot from you in this.
Chris Grainger (43:30):
Before we wrap up, though, let's, let's have
some fun.
Just do a little quicklightning round at the end,
since, yeah, you're, you're ahockey guy, you're still going
fast, fast anyway, so thisshould be pretty easy for you.
Let's do it.
What's the hobby, man?
You've already mentioned golf,so we're going to take that off
the table.
What's another hobby that youenjoy doing for fun, man?
Dave Jones (43:50):
I read psychology books.
I know it doesn't sound fun butI read.
Chris Grainger (43:54):
But that's fun to you, yeah.
Dave Jones (43:57):
Wow Okay, I love human behavior.
I love to get my hands on it.
Chris Grainger (44:01):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's pretty cool,though, man.
That's awesome, yeah.
So what about favorite food?
You mentioned you're fromPennsylvania originally, is that
what you said?
But now you're back in NorthCarolina, so what's your go-to?
Dave Jones (44:16):
My go-to probably steak and a sweet potato.
Chris Grainger (44:20):
And sweet potato my man, yeah, that's it.
North Carolina man.
This is where most of the sweetpotatoes come from.
That's it that barbecue I love.
I can barbecue, man I got asmoker out back, oh yeah.
Dave Jones (44:32):
I love my barbecue as well.
Chris Grainger (44:33):
Well, since your name is super Dave, like I
gotta, I gotta find out.
Like so, if you, if you couldhave a superpower, which one
would it be and how would youuse it?
Dave Jones (44:41):
Oh my gosh, what a great question there is this.
I mean, I talked about this acouple of years ago.
Um, the superpower that I wouldwant would be, um, uh, the
(45:02):
avoidance of accidents avoidanceof accidents like on the road
or just in general anywhere Icouldn't get in trouble okay,
okay, gotcha that would be apretty useful yeah.
So riding a bike, getting in acrash, jumping off a building,
(45:23):
um uh, boating getting on aladder, like the avoidance of
trouble, I would have an innateability to say don't do that.
Chris Grainger (45:36):
That's it, man.
That's it.
What's your favorite go-tomovie?
Pursuit of Happiness.
Oh, that's a good one, nice.
Nice and 300.'s a good one,nice, nice.
Dave Jones (45:50):
What's 300?
I like 300 to 300.
Oh my man 300.
Chris Grainger (45:54):
Gotta love that one.
Gotta love that one.
What's something you'restruggling with right now?
Dave Jones (46:01):
Um, I talk about this a lot actually, so I have
this acronym that I came up with.
It's called flap, flapap, flap,f-l-a-p.
(46:34):
So fear, lust, anger, pride,and so I struggle with two of
those probably every day, andfor me it was never.
It's never been sexual lust,it's been possessions.
You know like lustingpossessions, and I've really
really tried to work hard onthat.
So you know a house, a car, aboat, even down to like last
night, like I was just lookingat something to clean my car.
You know like a foam bottle.
You know like the spray foamwhere you put all the foam on.
(46:54):
It's supposed to be like I'mlike I need a new bottle of that
.
I'm like, don't, I don't needthat stupid thing.
You know, there, you go thereyou go.
So I struggle with that and Irecognize that that it could get
me in trouble and it hasn't,but I struggle there.
Chris Grainger (47:12):
Appreciate your honesty with that man when you
think about God.
What's your favorite thingabout it?
Dave Jones (47:20):
The honest, I really , I really like I love going to
the lake and I love just seeingthe mountains in the water and I
just I probably in my mind,have ventured into about 10% of
the awesomeness of God and Iwant more of it.
I want to see more of it.
Amen, yeah.
Chris Grainger (47:43):
What about a slip at 180?
What's your least favoritething about?
The evil one About.
Dave Jones (47:50):
Satan.
You're breaking up there aboutthing about the evil one about
Satan.
You're breaking up there aboutwhat?
The evil one about Satan?
Yeah, my least favorite or mostfavorite, Least favorite.
Chris Grainger (47:59):
Least favorite about Satan.
Dave Jones (48:04):
Basically, what do you hate the most about him?
You know, I just don't thinkthere's a whole lot of
creativity there.
Like he tries to come out asthe same old stuff and I'm like,
like can you get creative?
Like you're not going to get meto that and I don't want that.
I don't want him to getcreative.
But I'm just saying like it'sthe same stuff over and over.
(48:27):
It's the flap, the fear, lust,anger, pride, right, this is my
pride.
I recognize it.
I'm sorry, lord, I need to getrid of it.
I need to.
You know, humble myself, it'sthe same stuff.
Chris Grainger (48:44):
Amen.
Well, Dave, what do you hopethe guys listening remember the
most from our conversation today?
Dave Jones (48:50):
What do you hope the guys listening remember the
most from our conversation today?
I hope to just know that youknow whatever you're chasing out
there, that it's worth chasingIf you feel like you're in God's
will and you're chasing God andtrying to glorify him.
Stay strong man.
Stay in the process.
We need more of you.
There's going to be less andless, and there are less and
less of glorify him.
Stay, stay, strong man.
Stay in the process.
We need more of you.
There's going to be less andless and there are less and less
(49:11):
of us out there.
I want to encourage you to tostep out on faith.
You know, hopefully they seethat in my story, that you know
it was a faith journey and andthat, um, you know I'm
constantly working on myself andjust want to encourage them to
do the same.
Chris Grainger (49:28):
Amen, bro, amen.
Where do you want to send thelisteners to connect with you,
all the wonderful things you'redoing, that you're building to
serve others?
Dave Jones (49:37):
I think just go to emmasgoodcom.
There's lots of great resourceson there.
We're a Christian agency, butI've done a reasonably good job
of building up my blogs and someR7 podcasts over the years.
Chris Grainger (49:52):
Nice, all right, we'll make sure that links in
the show notes for you guys.
So, dave, anything else you'dlike to share today?
Dave Jones (49:57):
I just really appreciate you, chris, and thank
you for being patient with me,and I really enjoyed talking to
you, and so thank you for havingme align with you Absolutely.
Chris Grainger (50:06):
It's been an honor.
You have a great day, all right, thanks.
All right, guys.
I told you it was going to be afun one.
So thank you for Dave forcoming on.
Question of the week this week,fellas, is what area of life
feels most directionless for youright now?
We all have that area.
(50:27):
Very rarely are all eightcylinders firing correctly,
right.
Something's usually off.
So just recognize what that isand then put some time and some
thought into course correction,okay.
So really enjoy thatconversation with Dave.
That flap acronym fear, lust,anger, pride I'm definitely
(50:47):
going to remember that one.
Maybe you will as well Rememberthat's the lies of the evil one
.
That's the way he trips us upis hitting us focused in one of
those areas.
Okay, so if you enjoyed this,share this out with others, give
us a rating and review Highlyencourage you to head over to
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That's thelionwithinus.
Check lionwithinus, check outall our resources, follow us on
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(51:13):
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(51:36):
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(51:56):
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(52:18):
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