597. The Nehemiah Way With John Wilson

Episode Transcript
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Chris Grainger (00:02):
Welcome to the Lion Within Us, a podcast
serving Christian men who arehungry to be the leaders, God
intends you to be.
I'm your host, Chris Granger.
Let's jump in.
All right, fellas.
This is your meat episode.
Let's get right into it, okay?
So the scripture of the weekthis week is in the book of
Nehemiah, the second chapter,the 18th verse, and it says, And
I told them how the hand of myGod had been favorable to me,

(00:24):
and also about the king's words,which he had spoken to me.
Then they said, Let's arise andbuild.
So they put their hands to thegood work.
Fellas, love that verse.
Go back and listen to thespiritual kickoff episode where
I unpack that at length for youto help you figure out ways to
simplify and apply it to yourlife.
Again, we do this Mondaythrough Friday within our Lion

(00:45):
Within Us community.
Do it completely for free aswell for you guys who are
interested in the dailyspiritual kickoff.
So all that can be found at thelionwithin.us.
Okay, again, five days a week,guys.
So you don't have to just getone.
You can get five every day eachduring the week.
So go check that out and wedon't put that content anywhere
else, all right?
So today, speaking aboutNehemiah, we're gonna be digging

(01:06):
into Nehemiah even more.
We're talking about theNehemiah Way.
And to do that, we brought inDr.
John Wilson.
Really enjoyed meeting John.
Uh, he is the author of theNehemiah Way, How to Mobilize a
Church Full of Leaders.
He's a great guy.
He's an author, he's a speaker,uh, he's an entrepreneur.
He's done tons and tons of workout there, fellas.

(01:27):
And I just love John's take onthe book of Nehemiah and how he
uses that to equip, teach, tohelp pastors, particularly
millennial pastors, is where hefeels the most called.
But uh man, he's just got a hehas a uh just a natural way way
of sharing, of encouraging, ofjust inspiring out there.

(01:47):
Uh he's done many differentleadership roles.
He's been an executive coachbefore in the past, and and this
this Nehemiah way, which he'sgetting ready to unpack for us,
uh, has been taught to many,many, many different groups.
And and and it's proven itworks.
It's using the Bible to applyto our life today, uh, which I

(02:10):
absolutely love.
And uh so hopefully you'regonna enjoy this one.
He's from Pennsylvania, he'sgot three children.
Uh he lives in Chester ChesterCounty, PA.
So if you guys are up inPennsylvania, he's in your neck
of the woods.
So anyway, fellas, hopefullyenjoy this conversation with my
friend, John Wilson.
Well, John, welcome to The LionWithin Us.

(02:30):
How are you doing today, bud?

John Wilson (02:32):
I'm doing great, Chris.
Thanks so much for having me.
It's uh it's just exciting tome to see what you're doing, and
just um as we've been gettingto know each other, seeing so
many cool connections with theneom Iowa.
So really glad to be here.

Amen, brother.
Amen.
And before we get into theneomile way, man, like share
something fun about you, John,maybe that not many people know
about.

All right.
Uh actually, here's the uh newthing.
I this summer became a JeepWrangler owner for the first
time.
Okay.
So uh I have been uh in theevenings, uh, you know, doors
off, roof off with my uh withsome of my kids running around
town, just having a great timewith it.
And I think what's reallyinteresting about it is you
don't just buy a Jeep, you joina community.

(03:11):
Oh, yeah.
And so, you know, just drivingby, everybody's doing the little
wave, and you know, just uh,you know, the conversations you
end up having, and uh, you know,getting ducked in the parking
lot, you know, getting a littlerubber duck sitting on your door
handle is like it's prettyexciting.

Nice now.
Are you gonna jack it up andput big tires on, or what are we
doing here, John?

Oh, maybe one day it was funny.
Somebody made a comment about37s, and I'm like, well, I I I
made the big purchase this year.
I I actually the other thing isI you know everybody sees the
doors off.
It's like, oh, that looksgreat.
You know, I had to buy aspecial jack to lift the roof
off, and like the doors arethey're pretty, it's all pretty
easy, but it's like it's notlike a five-minute process.

(03:51):
So uh it's just been learningthe uh learning the ropes of
like all that and getting uhgetting set up.
But um uh I'm definitely anewbie, but I'm uh I'm
definitely uh heading in thatdirection.

That's cool, man.
Have you been caught in arainstorm yet?

I have not.
Uh we've been very carefulabout watching the weather
report and all that.
Um, but uh actually it's soit's an EV as well.
It's like the plug-in electric.
Um so I have no idea whathappens when you get caught in a
rainstorm.
Like I it it may not just beannoying, it may be dangerous.
I don't know.

There you go, man.
We'll we'll be praying forsafety when you're out there,
buddy.
Well, I'm super pumped to haveyou here.
Uh love everything that thatyou're about, what you're
building, particularly with theNehemiah Way.
So kind of maybe give the guysa little bit of a foundation of
what led you to this to Nehemiahas the foundation for
everything that you've beenbuilding.

Yeah, absolutely.
Well, first let me say what theNehemiah Way is for, and then
I'll tell you a little bit ofthe backstory because it's it
goes away back.
But really, uh what I've whatI've really found is what God
has called me to do with this isto uh really just provide
support to millennial pastorsthat are ambitious for the
spread of the gospel with theirchurches.
So a lot of them first time inelite pastor role, uh, a lot of

(05:02):
times just trying to, maybe it'sa church plant.
And the Nehemiah Way is reallyjust taking the book of Nehemiah
and breaking it down in a waythat is both spiritually
enriching.
There's so much opportunity fordiscipleship, but it's also
highly, highly practical.
Um, so that's really what theNehemiah Way is for.
That's what it's about.
But let me tell you where itbegan.

(05:23):
It was 1978.
Um, and I'm giving you a littlebit, I'm I guess I'm showing my
age here, but like I was fouryears old and my mom had a Bible
study in her neighborhood.
Um, the Bible study went on for30 years.
Um, dozens of people savedthrough this Bible study, just
right in the neighborhood.
You know, anytime anybodythinks like, oh, I just do this
like little, little thing in myneighborhood, like little Bible

(05:44):
study, it's like the impact andpower is huge.
But she comes to me as afour-year-old and she says, I am
going to launch into this bookcalled Nehemiah.
And I would like uh to charteryou as uh part of the uh the
initial skit to kick off the youknow the whole series.
And so she said, I want you toplay the part of this Nehemiah
who's a cupbearer and uh thecupbearer to the king.

(06:06):
I'm like, Well, I don't knowanything about cupbearers, I
don't know anything about wine,I don't know anything about
Nehemiah, but I'm like, there'sa king, we gotta have a throne.
And I started tearing all thepillows off this old blue couch
and building a throne for her tobe the king, as I'm, you know,
kind of the cupbearer to theking kind of thing.
And so I think that was likethat early formative uh just
sensitization of this particularbook of the Bible.

(06:26):
And I find a lot of people,even people who've been
believers most of their lives,don't know a lot about the book.
Um if you say, Oh, what'sNehemiah about it?
It's like they'll either say,you know, I'm not trying to read
it, or they'll say, Oh, it'she's the one who built the wall,
right?
He built a wall.
Um one of my big themes througheverything I do is it's not
about the wall.
And I'm sure we'll get intothat.
But um, so that was really thatformative experience.
And then uh God has reallycreated a lot of opportunities

(06:49):
for me to dig deeply into thispart of scripture um in a number
of different contextsthroughout my life.
Um, when I started working onmy PhD, I uh I went into a
program uh uh that was focusedon biblical foundations of
organizational leadership.
That was the PhD.
And so I went right toNehemiah.
I'm like, this is I'm I'velooked at this, I've read this,

(07:10):
I've dug into this all my life.
And I really focused my a lotof my PhD work on building
organizations uh on a similarway as Nehemiah.
And what I when I startedlooking for tieouts to
contemporary theory and thosekinds of things, I realized it's
entrepreneurial leadership.
And interestingly enough,that's what I do now.
I've I've been an entrepreneur,I've been a corporate
entrepreneur, um, I now teachentrepreneurship and I coach

(07:33):
entrepreneurs.
And so this, you know, Nehemiahhas really been the foundation
of that whole paradigm.
And uh so that's that's reallyhow it all began and then um
then kind of advanced with thePhD work.
And then in my own church, Ijust started working with my
pastors.
They asked me to come and do aworkshop uh with them for a
weekend about 10 years ago now.
Um that's when I really builtthe the workshop format out.

(07:55):
Sure.
And then um, and then theyasked me to do like a class, a
workshop series.
Actually, they asked me to do aSunday school class.
And I said, Well, how about weinstead do a workshop series?
Because what they were doing isthey were saying, we need to
find other leaders.
The three pastors were tired.
They had been a church plant.
They're like, okay, well, let'sface it, we're no longer a
church plant, we're church.
Um, and the pastors were doingeverything, they were tired,

(08:17):
they're still in kind of startupmode.
And so um, they're like, weneed to mobilize some other
leaders.
So I said, well, let's not justlike teach a class.
Let's like give me a problemthat you know you need to chew
on that you just haven't had thebandwidth to do.
It's important, but hasn'tgotten to the you know, tyranny,
uh, gotten past the tyranny ofthe urgent.
So they gave us a challenge andwe brought in about a dozen

(08:38):
people in the church that theyfelt like had leadership
potential and said, Hey, we'regonna do this series of
workshops.
We're gonna learn aboutNehemiah, and we're also gonna
be applying it every day, uh,you know, as we go through this.
And um, it was really, reallyamazing to see what happened uh
as you know, these individualsreally stepped up in their own
leadership, but then also justseeing where it went from there.

(08:59):
Like every one of them havemain continued in leadership
roles in the church.
Um, there was these arevolunteers.

These are these is like volunteers in a church,
just lay people, right?
This wasn't the church.
Okay.

Yeah, this is not the church staff, this is lay
people.
Um, and you know, it was it wasactually like the staff doubled
in size um almost overnightbecause all these individuals
really stepped up.
And when it was when it wascoming to an end, they're like,
wait, we don't want to stop.
And it's like, good, becausethis problem's still here.
And they made a they they madea pitch that I I always like to
say Nehemiah kind of Nehemiah'spitch deck.

(09:33):
He kind of went to the king andsaid, Hey, I got a I got a
proposition, right?
Yep.
And so they they pitched theirkind of proposed solution to
this problem uh to the pastorsand the elders at the end of the
course.
And uh one of the peopleactually said, Hey, I want to
spearhead this.
Several people stayed involved.
Others, you know, really sawlike, hey, there's these other
areas that are in need in thechurch.

(09:54):
I want to step into thoseroles.
Um, so it was really just a aninteresting progression over
time of how this developed.

So awesome.
So just kind of unpack some ofthe differentiation points that
you that you call out duringthese workshops and through your
study of Nehemiah that forgotforgot there's probably lots of
guys out there who it's been along time who since they've read
the book of Nehemiah.
And they're as soon as theythink about it, they think about
building walls.
That's typically what I thinkabout, right?
So, what are thedifferentiating factors?

Yeah, I mean, one of the first things I always say
is it's not about the wall, youknow, because so many times,
um, and this is I think what wedo with scripture sometimes.
We look at scripture as like apractical guide to life.
Um, and it is, for sure, butit's the gospel story, and God's
always doing so much more withit than we see right on the
surface.

(10:42):
And so so many times peoplethink the book of Nehemiah is
about the wall or aboutrebuilding the city or even
rebuilding the nation.
And it's like, no, the book ofNehemiah is about sin,
restoration, and redemption.
And it's actually almost aforeshadow to the gospel.
And, you know, it's uh Nehemiahis a bit of an Imagio Cristo in

(11:03):
the sense of like, it's justgiving us a little hint at what
is to come.
And what you see in Nehemiah isNehemiah is not about like,
here's a practical guide tobuilding an organizational
structure.
What you see is Nehemiah livingout what leadership looks like
when you're stepping out byfaith.
You're hearing God's call,you're immediately going into

(11:23):
prayer and continuously inprayer and never stopping
praying, and at the same timealso beginning to plan,
beginning to prepare, uh,beginning to just make progress
towards the goal and really justfollowing God's uh lead on all
of it.
And that's the thing thatreally stands out in Nehemiah.

(11:44):
And one thing that I thinksometimes gets forgotten because
Nehemiah like sits like in themiddle of the Old Testament
somewhere when you look at youknow the table of contents on a
Bible, but it's the last thingthat took place historically in
the Old Testament before theGospels.
So this is where it's like notonly is Nehemiah setting the
stage for the passion, settingthe stage for the work that

(12:06):
Christ is gonna do, but it'salso it's kind of like it's the
it's this jumping off point.
Yeah.
And so it's really interestingbookend.
So it's uh to me, it's such apowerful story in its its deep
uh spiritual and theologicalmeaning and purpose, but also
its practical applications.

And I know part of what you call out is the the
importance of prayer and howleadership often miss misses
that as a as a key component.
So why do you think those mostleaders just just bypass that
step when they when they'regetting started?

Yeah, well, uh it's so easy for the practical to be
our focus, right?
Um I just I just had the thethe privilege of interviewing uh
Keith Grant, who's with uh uhan organization called See
Jesus, and their whole focus ison helping churches develop a
commute a prayer-focusedcommunity, a community of prayer
within their church.
And um, it was just sointeresting because, you know, I

(13:05):
I I said to him, like, what iswhat's missing with prayer?
And what Keith said to me is,you know, one of the first
things we look at is is thepastor a praying pastor?
And he said, because a lot oftimes people come to them and
say, hey, we want to develop acommunity of prayer.
Can you help us?
And one of the first thingsthey do is they really look at
the pastor.
Is the pastor a praying pastor?
And not just the, you know,hey, Lord, we're opening this

(13:26):
meeting, be with us tonight, youtoday, or like, oh, hey, we've
got this problem, help us outwith this, but like someone
who's really committed toprayer.
And then the second thing is,is the leadership team uh
committed to prayer?
And then third, and there's youknow, several more in their
their framework, but you know,are the individuals are they
creating opportunities andreally focusing on prayer, not
just as a thing that a fewpeople do, but something that is

(13:47):
part of the whole community.
And so that's where I thinkprayer is so critical and
central.
And I just think sometimes thetangible practical can seem like
the easy thing, like let's justjump in and start doing
something.
Nehemiah prayed.
Every everything, every timesomething happened, it was like
Nehemiah, something happened,Nehemiah prayed, and then

(14:07):
Nehemiah acted.
And we see that repeatingthroughout the book of Nehemiah.

So it's kind of that it's always his first
response, right?
I mean, and sometimes I I knowfor me, I'm just talking about
just me.
It's usually a last resort,sometimes like, all right, I've
done everything else, might aswell pray, you know.
And it's just like, no, bro.
Like, let's let's let's write,let's course correct this.
It's just I I don't know.
I feel like it's I've screwedup so many times.

(14:32):
Like, I'm is this ever gonnabecome my standard mode of
operation?
But maybe one day, I don'tknow.

I relate so much to that.
In fact, one of the things uhwhen I really did the deep dive
on Nehemiah 1, where you findNehemiah's prayer, one of the,
you know, it's actually a veryfamous prayer in the Bible.
Um, it does get attention whensomeone's preaching on prayer.
Uh, but there's a couple ofthings that are really
interesting about it.
First, when I really broke itdown, I found there's eight
components.
I have a visual that has likeeight boxes, you know, and um

(15:02):
only the last one involves, Icall it supplication for aid,
you know, asking for help,asking for something.
So seven out of eight boxes aredoing something else.
One box is saying, God help mewith this.
And I'm like, man, I live inbox eight.
And box eight feels reallyflimsy and self-serving when the

(15:23):
other seven are absent.
And things like um just youknow, kind of uh just repentance
of sin, just acknowledgement ofsin and sinful nature, um, and
just that kind of like just uh,you know, naked admission,
confession of that, laying it atJesus' feet, and just
recognizing like that's thewhole point of the gospel is

(15:44):
that that has all been setaside, but we can't just like
pretend it never happened orpretend it's not still
happening.
It's like and so you seeNehemiah going right to the root
cause of the problem in the wayhe prayed, that this is a this
is a problem.
The problem is sin.
And you know, he's confessingnot just for himself, his
family, the nation of Israel,for you know, he's he's really

(16:07):
like laying that out as a firststep.
And it's like that's the rootcause.
And that's where I say it'slike everybody goes right to
well, let's start laying bricks,let's build the wall.
It's like it's not about thewall, it's about sin,
restoration, and redemption.
Right.
And you really see that in theprayer piece of this.

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That's thelionwithin.us, andget started today.
So, John, when I was workingthrough the book, I noticed,
first of all, are you Baptist?
Have you been or did you growup Baptist?

I did not.
I uh I grew up in theevangelical free church.
Okay.
However, my family was uh we'llsay uh an in intersection of
reformed and charismatic.
So that gives you an idea ofkind of the the crazy uh like
background of theology there.
Um and so I uh I'm today partof a a church that's uh and part

(17:44):
of the harbor network.
Um so that's uh but that'syeah, I'm not Baptist, but
you're probably seeing some sometense there.

Um, no, the reason I asked, bro, is kind of
funny because like if you go toany Baptist sermon, like usually
there's three points, andyou're really at a Baptist
sermon sermon if they all startwith the same letter.
So when I got to the six P's,I'm like, bro, wait a minute
now.
So for the best for the Baptistpastors that are listening, you
know, it's okay.

(18:11):
You know I'm right.
But anyway, let's just keepgoing.
So the six P's, I think they'rethey're killer.
You've already talked aboutprayer.
So maybe do you want to unpacksome of that?
How for for leadership, how yousee these areas really as kind
of like a map moving forward.

Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, and and uh it's funny yousay the six Ps.
It was like we didn't startwith that in mind, but it was
like something like four out ofsix, and then it was like and
then you gotta figure it out,right?
Yeah, there was somecontroversy about you know one
of them.
And um, yeah, and well, and tome, the six P's is like is the
blueprint.
I call it Nehemiah's Blueprint.
Like anybody's seen my channel,I have a I have a series called

(18:47):
Nehemiah, the Nehemiah'sBlueprint.
Um and you know, we've alreadytalked a bit about prayer.
Um, I think one last thing Ididn't really mention before on
prayer, but just worth noting.
A lot of times people will readNehemiah, like his brother came
in, he found out Jerusalem wasin ruins, he was bummed out, he
prayed, and then the king'slike, yo, you look bummed out,
what's up?
Um, what gets missed a lot oftimes is the first chapter of

(19:09):
Nehemiah starts out uh by sayingit's the month of Chislev, and
the second chapter says it's themonth of Nisan.
And what can get missed inthat, because like, I mean, is
that what?
March, April?
Like, it's that's a five-monthspan of time.
The month of Chislev is in likethe late fall, early, you know,
like kind of November timeframe, and the month of Nisan is

(19:31):
in the spring, like April.
And so, you know, so fivemonths have passed.
So I first of all, you realizeNehemiah doesn't do anything
quickly and you know carelessly.
So that the prayer was clearlydeveloped thoughtfully, and it
was like a meditation.
Um, because at the end, he'slike, you know, uh, essentially,
help me do well when I presentto this man today.

(19:52):
You know, it's like you see, islike he's preparing to the
king.
Well, he didn't know what daythat was going to happen.
And five months passed, so itwasn't his immediate just gut
reaction to the news.
So um, so that prayer wassomething that was happening
over and over and over again.
And that's where I think youcan see when he does pitch to
the king that overlaying thatmeditation and prayer that was

(20:13):
happening, he's planning andhe's preparing.
And so that's like kind oflike, you know, I always say the
first three three moves of achess game, you know, with most
players is the same.
Most players have a particularopening they like.
Um and so the you know, pray,plan, prepare are those first
three steps, those first threePs.

(20:35):
And you really see it by thetime that he's talking to the
king, the king's like, what areyou asking for?
And he knows exactly what he'sasking for, and not just like,
hey, I think it'd be great if Iwent and fixed the wall.
He had a plan, it was alreadybuttoned up, he knew his
numbers.
I mean, uh, you know, assomeone who teaches
entrepreneurship and someonewho's been an entrepreneur and
pitched for investors, like itis as close to a modern-day

(20:57):
pitch deck on shark tank as youas you might find in the Bible
because he's got it all buttonedup.
He's figured out I know where Ineed to get the timber, I know
who how I need to get there, uh,the permissions I need.
If you some of the clues whenyou dig into like how he got
there, he actually circumventedsome of the territories that
like a straight shot would havetaken him right into the belly

(21:17):
of the beast with some of thepeople that were going to
provide opposition.
He didn't want them to see himcoming.
So, pretty good inference isthat you know he did a
circuitous route, especiallywhen you look at like how he
approached how he got to theforest first and then Jerusalem,
he had to come from theopposite direction.
So, you know, it's like, youknow, and again, you know, I'm
not I'm not trying to, you know,say anything about what

(21:38):
happened that's not inscripture, but you know, you
kind of like when you look at amap of that time and you look at
the territories and you look athow this approach, you know, he
had even planned the route tomake sure he didn't have to face
opposition any sooner than heneeded to.
Um, and he also you know madeprovisions for himself.
He knew he knew what attackswere gonna happen uh because
Ezra and Zerubabel had likealready faced off toe-to-toe

(22:01):
with these people.
He he knew he was able to goback to the record and say, Oh,
I see exactly what they're doinghere.
They put a stop to this by youknow, they threats and you know,
um letters you know to theking, this sedition, all these
kinds of things.
He he knew their playbook, sohe already had that plan because
he, you know, you saw he wasready for everything that came.
And so that planning is justreally thinking through all the

(22:23):
things that can be thoughtthrough ahead of time.
And then as soon as he had thegreen light, he was ready to go.
And even that timing, thatmonth of Nasan, it's like the
court was about to move fromthey they're they're a snowboard
court, you know.
They were in the they were inthe southern location in
Shushan, or Susa is the way itlooks on paper.
And um, but they're gettingready to move.
So he knew this is the moment Ihave to peel off because I'm

(22:45):
gonna be closest to Jerusalem.
So even the timing, like he heknew what he was doing.
And so the preparations, likehe knew everything he needed.
As soon as the king said yes,it was like he was letters were
in motion and he was ready toroll.
Um, so really those first threethings, uh, that prayer,
planning, preparation, um, youknow, that's the those three

(23:07):
things are what most I find mostleaders, and this I'm not I'm
not calling out pastors on this.
This is I've seen leaders inindustry, I was in the
technology industry for overover 30 years, and in higher ed,
I've been in the higher ed forfive years.
Like, um leaders like will jumpin and just like, let's just
get actionable, let's startdoing something.
And there's there's there's atime and place for that type of
an approach, but that prayer,that thoughtfulness, that

(23:30):
planning, and that preparationare the things that can really
set up for it's almost like atipping point for things to
launch forward.

Right.
I tell you, when when I when Iwas thinking through this as you
were just explaining it, thereanother P would be precision.
Because I mean, if and I talkto uh to guys a lot about being
precise with our words, precisewith our actions.
You can't be precise if youdon't take the time to plan to
prepare in that prayer piece ofjust asking the Lord for that

(23:59):
wisdom and discernment, man.
Love the three steps, becausethen you can actually start to
your next P progressing forward.
Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, and actually I I wish we had this
conversation before we finishthe book because that would have
been a great seventh P.
And uh and very evident, youknow, Miss uh Nehemiah was so
precise.
Right.
Um, not just in his actions andum and his you know the
planning and just the way hedealt with people, he was very
precise, uh, the way he keptrecords.

(24:28):
I mean, we have a deepunderstanding of what was
happening there because of thekind of records that he took.
Um, you know, it's funny, oneof the things, you know, there's
a lot of controversy aboutusing AI, and I always say,
okay, John Piper said let's notuse AI to write our prayers.
But um, you know, at the sametime, there's so many things
that pastors, particularlymillennial pastors that are
already tech forward, you know,should be doing to make sure

(24:51):
that they're stewarding theirtime well.
And, you know, I always think,like, man, Nehemiah, like, he
was like talking to Chat GPT.
Like he, you know, they saidthere are a few people went with
me when he did the midnightride and he had all these
precise calculations andeverything.
You know, he probably had ascribe that was like, you know,
he was talking out loud, writingthese things down, keeping
track of these.

(25:12):
Because the it wasn't like,hey, a bunch of people came and
helped.
He lists their names.
Chapter three is just a longlist of names that everybody
skips.
And I'm always like, don't skipchapter three.
There's so much good stuffthere.
Uh, because it's actuallyshowing his entire structure and
framework by the way hepresents the names.
And he's honoring thoseindividuals who are in the place

(25:33):
and time to be used by God andrecognizing the the step that
they took in faith to supportthis work.
And so, yeah, so that thatprecision would actually be a
really, really good pivot pointuh before progress.
Interestingly enough, so thethe word that we struggled with
that word for a long time.
And not just to find a wordthat started with P, because

(25:54):
that was not the goal.
Um, we weren't even thinkingabout that.
But you know, it was like theone that, you know, when you
think about, you know, this iswhere I always had to untangle
my, you know, secular kind ofcontemporary view on modern
organization and leadership.
I'd been a senior leader and atechnology company.
And, you know, so performancewas a word I wanted to use.
Okay.
And I mean, uh, my co-author,my publisher, my pastor,

(26:17):
everybody's like, uh, no go.
Don't even go there, right?
Because performance has is solow.
Talk about precision withlanguage.

Yeah.

Performance, we're talking about how the church
operates, is just a loaded term.
And it's like, man, the gospelsays no on performance.
Like, we are not earning ourway into anything.
Guess what?
You know, if you want to likemake God laugh, tell him your
plans, right?
You know, what we are doing,it's not about us.
It's not about the wall, right?
Um, it goes back to that wholething.

(26:45):
And so, so like performance waslike, no go, but we're like,
but you know, like, how do youknow like when you're doing
well?
Because Nehemiah had very clearKPIs.
You know, it's he broke thiswall into 46 segments.
Each segment had a champion,someone who owned that section
of the wall.
Everybody knew that this wallneeded to be so thick and it

(27:06):
needed to be so tall.
It's like, and it was like, andyou know what, we're doing it
in phases.
Phase one, build this thing tofour feet.
Phase two, build it to eightfeet.
He broke it in, and so youthere was a lot of precision in
the way that that happened.
And that's how they were ableto really measure that progress.
And that's how they were ableto make sure that they were
moving along in the same pace.

(27:28):
Um, one of the questions is whythe phase?
Like, why stop building at fourfeet before you go to the next
four feet?
And uh, you know, we can onlyconjecture on that.
But I have some realinteresting thoughts on why four
feet.
Um, and there's several thingsthat I kind of infer or just
think, you know, if it's like ifit was me, this is probably why
I'd be thinking that.
Number one, some parts of thewall were like just broken and

(27:50):
just needed some repairs.
Some parts, they were justgone.
And so some of them would belike, hey, we gotta like get
material here.
You know, some of at leastthere's a big pile of rubble,
and like so the material'sthere.
So you have like very, verydifferent set of circumstances
for each segment of the wall.
You know, on average, each eachperson, each team was kind of
had maybe 150 to 300 feet ofwall that they had to build.

(28:11):
We don't know how thick it is,we just know that they they had
a party on top of the wall whenit was over.
So you figure it's gotta haveat least been four feet thick.
Um because you know, they hadthe basically the processional
went up onto the wall.
And so even if that was a twoby two, you know, four feet,
it's like don't fall off.

That's pretty tight.
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.
So, but I think the four feetwas to to reconcile the fact
that some of these were probablygonna go pretty quickly and
some of them were gonna bereally time consuming,
difficult.
And I think there was anopportunity to say, hey, if
you've got a simple one, go fullthrottle, get her done, and
then then move over and help theother team and you know, and
that kind of thing.
And so, and then the other, andthen the last piece is just

(28:49):
defensible position.
Um, you know, I think a lot oftimes there's this sense of
like, oh, people were likesitting there saying, you guys
are never gonna pull this off.
You know, it's like, um youread this account, I kind of
envision like a teenager layingbricks with like, you know, uh,
you know, with a sword in hishand, and like, and it's like

(29:09):
his sister and his little cousinare at their feet, and they're
all like laying bricks, andthere's an army 20 feet away
screaming threats with swordsand everything, like they're
just gonna overrun them at anyminute.
I think that's the kind oftension they were probably
dealing with in that.
And so, so I think the fourfeet was like, you know, four
feet's not um, you know, that'snot a complete barrier for sure,

(29:30):
but it definitely would slow anarmy down.
Right.
So, you know, I mean, there'ssome you just you see, like, you
know, Nehemiah is not like atactical leader.
He's thinking strategicallyfrom the beginning.

Sure, sure.
And I think what when I when Iwas working through it, when
when you got to theperseverance, I think this is
where so many people fall off.
And I'm not sure.
Maybe that from your research,this is and your coaching to
entrepreneurs as well.
So many people, man, we're in amicrowave culture, like we
want.
We want it now.
We don't we want it likeyesterday, actually.

(30:03):
Uh, we want the instantsuccess.
And then we look at socialmedia, whatever, whatever was
feeding us, and all we see issuccess, and then that just gets
us down.
But that perseverance, man,like just unpack that.
Why do you think that's such abig part of Nehemiah's story and
why it should be a big part ofour story as leaders today?
Yeah, absolutely.

Well, and it it's such a different, I think
perseverance has such takes asuch a different form now than
it did for Nehemiah.
So um, but it's all it's allthe same principles are there.
And I think, I mean, I thinkit's not an accident that God
really highlights that, youknow, those things that point to
perseverance with Nehemiah.
And, you know, so firstperseverance is this is a big

(30:43):
project.
It's dirty, it's dusty.
You know, at one point he'sshaking his robes out.
He's obviously in there.
He's not just like callingshots from the the corner
office.
He's he's out there layingbrick too.
And um, so there's just the thephysical, you know, you think
this, it's uh, you know, it'sit's they're heading into
summertime, it's hot, you know,it's um it's dusty, it's dirty

(31:05):
work.
It's not, I mean, he was he wasin the king's court.
Yeah.
He was probably the you know,something equivalent to the head
of hospitality, which, youknow, hospitality now is like
the big buzz.
You know, I've been readingUnreasonable Hospitality, the
new gold standard, those kindsof things.
Like hospitality is such a bigthing.
Nehemiah was a pro.
And at an executive level, youknow, it's like a lot of times
we think he was just like theguy to make sure that uh, you

(31:27):
know, he the king didn't die.
Um, but you know, it's like,you know, even to be able to be
taken seriously in the requesthe made, he already had to be
pretty senior.
And um, so you have just theperseverance of just the the
rigor of that.
But at the same time, uh, youknow, it's like you've got uh
like true opposition, you havelike competing governors like

(31:49):
saying, hey, we don't wantJerusalem to be a vital city.
It's way quicker for a traderoute to go through Jerusalem
than to come all the way outinto Sambalad or Geshem's
territory.
And so, you know, they had athey had a financial interest in
making sure this didn't workout.
And so, you know, so you havethis this persecution.
Um, and some of it, you know,at first it's ridicule.

(32:09):
And like, man, I mean, howquickly do we fold when people
start making fun of us?
You know, it's like uh, youknow, the so you know,
persecution and the church,like, I mean, we are we do not,
at least in the United States,we don't live in a culture where
the church is really trulypersecuted.
I mean, that kind of feels likeit sometimes, but like, you
know, it's like nobody'sthrowing stones at us.
That's right.
Nobody's threatening to throwus in prison.
There's like, you know, so sowe have this, um, you know, you

(32:34):
have this like perseveringthrough like ridicule, but then
that escalates.
That ridicule turns into tothreats of like, hey, we're
gonna, we're gonna take awayyour support, we're gonna, we're
gonna accuse you of treason.
You might go to prison, youmight be killed.
Um, and then it's deaththreats.
And then it's like, hey, comeon down, we're gonna talk about
this, but you know, hey, we'regonna try to take you out.
And like I said, I mean, prettygood evidence that there was

(32:56):
like like armies like at thewalls as this thing escalated.
And so, you know, that reallyjust pushing through, even
though everybody says this isimpossible.
And then at the same time,internally, people are like,
hey, I got work to do.
Like, I can't be messing aroundwith this wall anymore.
And then, you know, finding um,you know, injustice in their
midst, like having to call afull stop to the work.

(33:18):
You know, he's like socommitted, like nothing is gonna
stop us.
We're building this wall.
And then all of a sudden hecalls full stop.
Everybody, like, put the bricksdown, put the trials down, stop
mixing like masonry, like stop.
We're gonna deal with this.
Because at the end of the day,it's not about the wall.
It's about sin, restoration,and redemption.
And here you have Nehemiahspots, like, wow, in spite of

(33:41):
all this other stuff around usthat we can withstand and
persevere through, we've got theroot cause of the problem
rearing its ugly head righthere.
The whole purpose of themission is like lives or dies on
this moment.
And so he's like, full stop.
Let's let's just we gotta takeit out.
We gotta deal with this, wegotta deal with our sin before
we can build God's kingdom.

Amen.
Hey, we'll take a quick break,guys.
We'll come back and keepdigging in with John.
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So, John, when I got to thelast P, I just smiled because I
was like, No, there's no suchthing as people problems.
So, like, it can't be a peopleproblem in a church either.
Like, are you kidding?

(35:30):
You're making this stuff up.
So, man, I'm just just joking.
So, like, why do you thinkthat's no joke?
How did this have to be?
This had to be included in theprocess, right?
So just unpack that for us.

Yeah, and it's interesting because uh, you
know, one of the things we wewrestled with with this one,
this was the first one, it's nota platitude, so to speak.
Yeah, but it's a reality.
And we we you know, we wedidn't find we couldn't come up
with a better word, but it'slike it is at the uh root of all
of it.
It's like this whole thing forNehemiah could have gone the way
of Zeruba Babel.

(36:02):
Could have gone the way ofZerubbabel, could have gone the
way of Ezra, right?
It could have just gottenstalled out.
Uh people could have beendisturbed discouraged, uh, they
could have been worse off thanwhen they started.
It it all could have gone thatway.
Um and you know, it's like atthe end of the day, uh people
usually, you know, well, peopleare the problem because it's

(36:22):
like our our sin, we all bringour sin to every situation.
You know, the the adage oflike, oh yeah, there was a
perfect church and then Ijoined, right?
You know, and um of course itwasn't perfect and it was never
gonna be, and joining you justmade things worse and
complicated.
Uh but um the, you know, that'sthe the heart of it.
And uh I I I spoke at theGospel Coalition conference in

(36:45):
the spring, and uh it was like agood sized room.
It was like, you know, one ofthe breakout sessions, and and
uh one of the things I I saidwas I said people problems, and
I said, wow, I could I can seeit now.
I see thought bubbles likefloating out above you know
everyone's head of, you know,just you're thinking names,

(37:05):
you're thinking people, you'rethinking situations of just
individuals who are in thechurch.
They're you know, maybewell-intentioned even, but you
know, their sinfulness is reallycausing them to pursue their
own agenda, their own glory,their own kingdom, not God's
kingdom, and draining the lifeout of the leadership of the

(37:25):
church.
And, you know, and I I just Ijust said you know, just let
pause for a minute, like raiseyour hand if that resonates.
And like every hand in theplace went up.
I mean, it was silent.
You could hear a pin dropbecause it was like, and people
came after and said, Yeah, likethat when it's like that is
where I am at right now.
People problems, and you know,it's usually not the simple,

(37:49):
like so-and-so, you know, uh,you know, got arrested or
so-and-so had an affair, or youknow, those kinds of things.
It's like it's never thatsimple, like, oh, well, we have
to, you know, activate churchdiscipline.
It's like the most prominentmember of the church is kind of
pushing their own agenda, uh,but they're also writing all the
checks, you know, and it's youknow, and so so and that's where

(38:13):
I mean, that was the situationNehemiah was in.
Like, he wasn't telling thecommon man, like, hey, we gotta
be nice to each other.
He was saying to the elite, therich, like all the people that
he had clearly activated as hissupporters, and he's calling
them out and saying, yo, this isfor nothing if you are going to

(38:33):
continue to pursue your ownselfish, sinful ambition and not
pursue proceed with God'skingdom.
And treating all of your otherfellow, you know, this is your
family, this is your community.
You're like, it's not likeyou're treating other people
outside badly.
That would be terrible.
You're treating your ownpeople, your own family, uh, in

(38:55):
a way that's reprehensible.
And that's where you see thathe's shaking out his robes.
He's like, he's reminding themlike, I'm right here building
this wall, and I'm using my ownpersonal money to go to buy
these people out of slavery tofind out you're selling them
right back into slavery.
He's calling them out.
And I mean, he could have losthis entire support base right
there.
And he and he didn't.

(39:16):
He, I mean, they the people sawit, he pointed them in the
direction of their sin, and theyrepented and they committed to
to uh making immediate change.
And then it was like, then oncethey dealt with their sin, they
were able to get back torestoration so they could pursue
redemption.

100%.
With the pastors in thechurches you've been working
with, John, where what what'sthe the most salient sticking
point in this process with them?
Like we're where are guysrunning into the biggest, the
most amount of headwinds, if youwill.

Yeah.
Yeah, I think I uh I call itthe pew potato problem.
Um so kind of speaking ofpeople problems, it's a
different kind of peopleproblem, you know, because most
people problems are really justa an off uh just a an
outstretching of all of our sincollectively bumping into each
other.
Uh but the pew potato problem,um, and one of those we we
always we joke about pewpotatoes and we always say
they're really nice people.

(40:10):
Like we're not we're notdiminishing the potatoes.

Yeah, right?

Yeah.
Um and what we mean by that isthese are the people that are
really, really competent, giftedby God.
They are um enterprising,they're uh, you know, really uh
just active in their their work,they've got skills, they've got
backgrounds, they've got allthese things.
Uh, but they're content to showup on Sunday morning.
And actually, I would even go astep further.

(40:34):
They've been trained to justshow up on Sunday morning,
right?

Fade me, fame, fade me cycle gas.

Yeah, well, consumer culture, right?
I mean, I think this is this isthe bigger challenge for
millennial pastors.
I think even uh even Gen Xpastors and previously didn't
have the the attention span.
It's like, you know, it's likeit's consumer culture, it's
short attention spans, it'slike, how do I get attention?
Um, it's the attention economy,um, is actually the way it's
been described.
Uh, you know, Gary Venertchukwrote a book called Day Trading

(41:02):
Attention.
It's all about what socialmedia is really meant to get our
attention, and like that's thewhole point.
If you want to profit fromsocial media, you got to get
attention.

And so he knows about that too, man.
Yeah.

Yeah, man.
He oh, he has become a very,very wealthy creator as a
result.

You know, really extra desk stuff, man.
He's he's he's I learned a lotabout podcasting with him.
Anyway, he keeps going.

Yeah, so you know, so we have this attention thing.
And so, but at the same time,our church is like, and this is
um, you know, it's I I'll I'llcall it a little bit of a
critique on the kind of the mostrecent model of churches where
it's all about like, you know,big production and yeah, really
live stream and you know, youknow, all these things is like,
I mean, all good things, youknow.

(41:45):
I mean, I, you know, I'm notnot poking too many, uh taking
too many shots at the SevenMountains thing, but like, you
know, at the end of the day,like the you know, anything
that's gonna get someone exposedto the gospel, you know, that's
that can be very positive.
But with it, we've kind ofgotten to this point where
churches are kind of built tocompete with entertainment and

(42:07):
media and all these things.
And so as a result, like peopleare just used to, well, it's
like I pay 80 bucks to go to aconcert, I go sit there and
enjoy.
Hopefully jump up and down alittle bit and have some fun.
You know, it's like you go tochurch for the same thing.
We've we've we essentiallytrained people to be pure
potatoes.
So, and that's where, you know,what we really landed on.
What's you know, we've lookedat different churches, it's like

(42:28):
this is not a um not avolunteer problem because
somebody's like, oh, oh,volunteers, you just need you
just need more volunteers andthose kinds of things.
It's a mobilization problem.
And that's the thing, it's likeso many times what will happen,
and this is what I saw in myown church, three pastors were
just they were burned out, theywere exhausted, they were doing
all the work themselves.
And they were like, they, andthey're like, oh, we have lots

(42:49):
of people that'll say they'llshow up and help.
Like if they ever asked forhelp, you know, a dozen people
would show up and say, Yeah,what do you need me to do?
But what they didn't have wasthey didn't have mobilized
leaders among those volunteers.
And so this is where theNehemiah model is like, you
know, Nehemiah identified 46champions and said, Hey, um, go
work on this.

(43:10):
And and those champions, likepart of the reason they were the
one is they already had a groupof people around them that were
used to working with them,serving with them.
I some I I've kind of coinedthe term serving circles.
You know, you have a goldsmith.
Well, they had a team ofpeople, they made jewelry.
And, you know, it's like, hey,you know, goldsmith, you know,
can you go build that sectionwall?
Yeah, sure.
Guys, let's go.

(43:30):
You know, all, you know, youmight have 15, 20 workers that
are you, they're used to workingtogether in a team, they come
along.
And um, you know, I always sayto pastors, like, you know, you
know who these people are.
They're the ones when you call,like, in, you know, in our
church, we have a fellow, hisnickname's DK.
It's like, if you call DK, say,hey, can you uh can you put a
planter in by the church uh inthe front of the church or

(43:51):
something like that?
He shows up with a dozenvolunteers, the planter's done
in like two hours, and then thethen the uh uh you know, his
wife and another team is likeputting flowers in it, and it's
all it's done by the end of theday.
You know, it's um so it's likethere's there's usually that
person that just whateverthey're doing, they you know,
all their friends immediatelyshow up and and they they start
doing that.
And so it's a mobilizingleaders is often the missing

(44:14):
link to creating this likealmost like uh an infrastructure
without an infrastructure.

This could be a my personal experience with some
pastors that so I know a lot ofpastors who are control freaks.
I'm just gonna go ahead and sayit.
So they're they're very muchcontrol freaks.
They have to have they have tohave their hands in everything.
So when you're saying mobilizepeople and let these guys go, is
that how how do you what wouldbe your encouragement to the guy

(44:44):
listening, the lay, thelayperson listening who has
tried to go into this church toto serve in these areas and just
gets you know no no doorsclosed, doors closed, doors
closed.
And at some point he just says,Screw it, I'm going home.
You know, I mean, I I don'tknow if that if you've seen
that, but I just based off myexperience, there's lots of
control problems within pastorsand and willing to let go of

(45:08):
some of that control.

Yeah, absolutely.
And well, and that's um I seeit with entrepreneurs.
I work with entrepreneurs alot.
It's a very similar thing.
Um, I think it goes back tolike we've trained people to be
pew potatoes.
That's another way we'vetrained people to be pew
potatoes.
Okay.
Somebody raises their hand andsaid, I'd love to help with
this, they start doing thingsand they get kind of shut down.
Um Yeah, that you only have todo that once or twice and it's
it's over.

(45:29):
Oh yeah, they're done.
I mean, you know, have you everhad seen a CEO of a company
being a greeter at the frontdoor?
You know, it's like uh, youknow, and I mean they're they're
they're probably an awesomegreeter and they're probably
having a great time andeverything, but um, you know,
just you know, even just youknow, recognizing those gifts.
Um, here's what I see withentrepreneurs.
I see it all the time.
Uh, and it's entrepreneurs willum they will not really like it

(45:56):
when, you know, reallysuccessful entrepreneurs hire
people around them that aresmarter than them and are able
to do way more than they can doon their own.
Uh, but the ones that arereally control freaks um and
really, you know, really want tobe the center, it's really
about them.
They really struggle whensomebody shows up and starts,
you know, kind of taking alittle of that attention away uh
or you know, kind of like, youknow, maybe has a little bit

(46:19):
different perspective on whatcan happen.
And so it's a challenge.
And, you know, I always say youcan only grow as big as you're
willing to release because um,you know, someone who's gonna be
part of everything and doeverything, they're always gonna
be the one that everybody'slike, okay, well, I think we
should do this, but let's seewhat Pastor So-and-so says.
Um, you know, that's it isreally gonna curtail it.

(46:40):
But I think what I would say,and this is, you know, I think
this is a leadership thing.
Uh, you know, I got a PhD inorganizational leadership.
And I think one of the thingsthat, you know, I've seen with a
lot of the research, humilityand leadership, servant
leadership.
I mean, these are models thatare getting a lot of attention
because those that aren't therock star CEO, those who aren't
the I'm at the center ofattention, uh, those that aren't

(47:02):
like I'm gonna controleverything, like people respond
better and they flourish more.
And I think in a in a churchcontext, and maybe this is the
thing to say, if you feel likeyou're in that category, you
know, I would say the playbookalways is go to prayer.
Go there first.
Because that's, you know,because that's actually a
personal spiritual developmentand maturity thing in and of

(47:22):
itself.
But I think the question thatseems to maybe resonate most in
that situation is like, are youwilling to limit the
discipleship opportunities withuh, you know, those that would
be lay leaders in your churchfor sake of maintaining complete
control of everything?
Because to me, when you I I II'll I'll tell you a story.

(47:47):
I I my um my parents uh werealready well along in life
before I came along, so theythey passed a lot earlier in my
life than most people wouldn't.
Um but I remember uh talkingwith someone who uh knew my
father, and he said, you know,20 years ago, your father asked
me to teach a Sunday schoolclass at our church for adults.

(48:07):
And he said, uh and he said hesaid, uh, you know what?
I just need you to do it for amonth while I find somebody
else.

Yeah, that's classic.

Yeah, oh yeah, classic.
And he's like, and he's like,and looking back, I think we
both knew that it was nevergonna be just a month.
Um so 20 years later, he'sstill teaching this class.
And he said that opportunity tojust lead and serve in that way
changed my life.
Because he's like, it forced meto be in scripture every day,

(48:38):
it forced me to be in prayerevery day, it placed me in a
situation where I was beingreally intentional about
stewarding the mission God puton my life.
And so just by that simple actof asking me to do that, you
know, really opened up a pathwayto spiritual development and
maturity just for me.

(48:59):
Not even forget about all thepeople over 20 years that really
benefited, including myself.
I was actually, he did a, he uhdid a middle school when I was
in middle school, and I I was Iactually got to benefit from he
was just a phenomenal teacher.
And he was like, he wassomebody he, I think he worked
in a factory or something likethat.
It wasn't like he wasn't ateacher by trade or anything
like that.
So, you know, to me, for apastor that's really wanting to

(49:22):
really maintain control ofeverything, the question is, is
that so important?
Are you so committed to thatposition that you're willing to
limit the spiritual growth ofthose that you're you're
shepherding?
Um, and you know, that'ssomething I wouldn't say that to
someone I didn't have somerelationship with, that I didn't
have some, you know, just somekind of relational capital with.
I, you know, I don't, I'mbecause my feeling is anyone

(49:43):
who's really answered God's callto go into ministry full-time,
they have sacrificed so much.
And I I never want to dismissthat.
Uh, but I do think there's athat that those that are gonna
really be in control ofeverything, they're going to
miss out on just someopportunities for themselves to
be able to grow beyond just whattheir own personally capable
of.
But it's also they're they'relimiting the people they're

(50:06):
shepherding in the same way.
And that's the part that Ithink uh can really help to
break the ice there.

That's good insights, man.
And and the kind of wanted tolet I'm I'm sticking with the
pea thing, man.
I don't know why.
This is the spirit's juststicking me with the pee with
the peas today.
Passivity.
Like speak to the guy listeningright now who's being very
being very passive.
He knows that God's calling himto do something more in the
church, but for some reason hechooses to sit on his hands and

(50:35):
let others.
And I think for me, this islike I just wrote I just wrote a
piece about this aroundpassivity, and I just feel like
this is one of the things that'sabsolutely that and apathy.
That that's the two things istaking guys out from serving in
in a meaningful way.
But how would you encourage aguy who's being passive right
now?

Yeah.
Well, this is where I think thestory of Nehemiah as everyman
is such a good uh kind of justjust thought to consider.
Because the thing that you lookat, Nehemiah was just an
ordinary person.
So much of the Bible, you'reyou're reading about people that
God placed in prominent roles,kings and leaders and all these

(51:15):
kinds of things.
Um Nehemiah is one of the fewstories that Nehemiah was just
an ordinary guy.

Yeah, he's a dude.
Yep.

He's living in Babylon.
Uh, he's not just living, youknow, surviving in Babylon, he's
living well in Babylon.
He's got a good job.
You know, today he's driving abeamer, you know, he's, you
know, he's got the nice watch,he's got the you know, the
trappings of life kind of thing.
Um, and so, you know, he couldbe just really focused on his
work.
He'd just be like, I'm gonna bethe best hospitality, you know,

(51:43):
CEO, you know, uh chiefhospitality officer of all time
and living his best life, andyou know, just focused on
himself and his own joys andpassions of those kinds of
things.
And, you know, and that's kindof the world we live in.
Nehemiah was intentional aboutprayer, and I think that's where
God, you know, really was hewas ready to for God's call when

(52:05):
it came.
Uh, but then God did suchextraordinary things through
Nehemiah.
And he was a lowly person, hewas a lowly position.
Um, you know, in one place, uh,you know, the the role of
cupbearer, in one place of theBible, the role of cupbearer,
the word that's actually used iseunuch.
And I don't know that Nehemiahwas a eunuch, but if you think

(52:28):
about it, he would have grown upand been in the king's service
in the palace um during the notjust the Persian Empire, um, or
not just the Persian Empirewhere he he was at the end, but
the Babylonian Empire.
And the Babylonian Empire wasbrutal, you know, and he would
have had access, he would havebeen in the he, you know, at
least in the Persian Empire,he's he's got access to the
queen, you know, he's in he's inthe presence of the queen.

(52:49):
So, so at very least,metaphorically, Nehemiah's uh,
you know, in this kind of uh,you know, very like kind of
diminished status.
Um, and at the same time, he'skind of being able to live
large.
And I think, I think that canbe the sense of like, well, in
the church, I'm not, I'm notimportant, I'm not powerful, I'm
not, you know, influential.
And so it can be like, so I'mjust I'm just gonna show up on

(53:11):
Sunday and just kind of gothrough the motions.
Um, you know, there's that's adecision point.
So, you know, Nehemiah got badnews, but then he made a
decision that he was gonna dosomething about it.
And so whether, whether apastor or someone notices, hey,
you got potential and you shouldstep up and do something, uh,
you don't have to wait for thatcall.

(53:31):
You know, just step in and doit.
Um, I remember early on when uhwe we joined the church, uh, I
was asked to be on a panel aboutvolunteering uh in the uh the
explore class, which was likethe kind of the setup class.
And it was like we had justbeen through it not that long
ago.
We had only just recentlyjoined the church and um and we
were helping out with a new one.
And um, you know, it was likemost of the things there was

(53:52):
like things were in place.
What I realized that really wasnot getting done that needed to
be done is like there were, youknow, we had a meal at the
beginning and the dishes weren'tgetting washed.
Um and you know, I was when Iwas in high school, I was, I
was, I worked in a restaurant.
I I knew how a dishwasherworked, you know.
So so I found like the thingthat just needed most done was
like I'd go into the back, I'dtake all the dishes and I'd get
them all taken care of, and I'dusually sit in on the end.

(54:12):
And uh, so we're part of thispanel, and uh the pastor uh is
you know asking questions, andhe's starting to talking to me
about like how I'm serving, andand he's like, he's like, I went
back into the kitchen last weekand this guy's washing dishes.
I'm like, he's got his PhD.
And I'm like, I'm like, Dave,you make it sound hard.
Anybody can wash dishes.
You don't need a PhD, you know?

(54:33):
And uh, you know, it's like,um, you know, I think sometimes
it's like, you know, the thoughtis like, oh, like I, you know,
I'm not being asked to like givea sermon or lead worship or
something like that.
So I guess there's nothingthat's really it's like, you
know, sometimes like you know,step in like so there's always
something that needs done in thechurch.
Sure.
And that's what I've seenhappen in our church from a time

(54:57):
when we had like a dozen peoplethat kind of raised their hand
and said, Okay, I'll try leadingsome things in the church, not
just showing up to help.
And each of them kind ofactivating their serving
circles, like bringing drawingmore people in.
Um, on Easter Sunday this year,we did the church service in
the park for the wholecommunity.
And so we have like maybe 300,350 people who show up regularly

(55:20):
on a Sunday morning.
So it's not a huge church.
Over 600 people were there thatmorning.
There were uh donuts for theadults and coffee.
There were, there was like,there was like a kind of a bag,
like an Easter bag for the kids.
Um, and you know, there was afull worship team, full sound
system.
There were chairs, there were,there were more than a hundred

(55:40):
volunteers that were involved inthis.
And I was walking from my carand I bumped into our lead
pastor who was preaching thatmorning 15 minutes before the
service started, and we'reshooting the breeze.
We're like, you know, talkingabout, oh, this is so great.
It's so cool to see this comingthrough.
Um, and you know, him beinglike just relaxed.
And I just think, man, fiveyears ago, I just remember he

(56:01):
was like, should I even be doingthis or should I just throw in
the towel?
Like, I'm exhausted, I'm burnedout, I'm like, you know, I'm
just I feel feeling ineffectual.
And seeing, you know, thismassive thing happening, 100
people showing up to volunteer.
And part of the reason we didthe service in the church that
day was we had another 50 to 75volunteers renovating this the

(56:23):
sanctuary and doing a full likeremodel.
Um, and it was closed.
That was the week where theyjust couldn't be in it.
So it was like we're like, Ihope the weather's good because
we don't have a backup plan.
And uh, so um, you know, justthat just to see like, you know,
uh the 50% of the church likevolunteering, and that was not

(56:43):
because the three pastors weremobilizing 150 people, the three
pastors are now mobilizing, youknow, a dozen or you know,
maybe 20, 20, 25 leaders who arein turn owning ministries and
really moving, you know, movingthe ministry forward.

Man, that's an incredible story, John.
That what what a way.
What that's I think that's agood way to wrap up the knee of
mine.
Now let's do a fun somelightning round to have a little
fun here at the end.
And then uh then man, just I'vehad so much fun with you today,
buddy, already.
So what's what's your favoritehobby?
Like, what do you enjoy doingfor fun, John?

Yeah, if it was anything, it'd be scuba diving.
I uh I learned scuba dive uhwhen I was 14 years old.
Um, I have been diving uh allover the world, not all the way,
like I haven't been like toIndonesia and uh Australia and
stuff yet, but like all over theCaribbean, all over the you
know southern states, uh intothe islands, South America, um,
you know, Italy, a little bit ofEurope.

(57:38):
Uh I I love scuba diving.
That's definitely my uh myfavorite activity.

Oh, okay.
Now, if you could have asuperpower, John, like which one
would you uh choose and howwould you use it?

Yeah, I I gotta say, I think uh the Bible
answers that question for us.
I'm going with Solomon onwisdom.
Okay.
Um and I would just uh use thatto deal with whatever life
throws at me.
And you know, if if I'm uh youknow, I I guess the right answer
is, and I I I hope this isusually my answer, but I know

(58:11):
sometimes it's not, but I thinkI would really want to point
that at like how you know how doI, you know, just answer God's
call faithfully to spread thegospel and be completely
forgotten.

Amen.
What's your all-time favoritemovie, John?
What's your go-to?

Yeah, I would say uh it's such a hard I'm always
it's always a jump ball for methe between a couple.
Um I think I would say myfavorite of all time is Finding
Forester.
Um though uh Gladiator and uhthe Dead Poet Society are like
close second, so it's alwayshard for me to uh to sift
through those three.

But there you go, bro.
There you go.
Now you're you're inPennsylvania, right?
I am Philadelphia, yeah.
What's so what's what's yourgo-to food up there, man?
Like what's your what what'syour comfort food that you're
that you're leaning in on?
Group on and off.

I'm now part of a startup that's doing an app for
restaurants.
So I think I love exploringfood, is what I would say.
Is I am always looking for mynext kind of culinary adventure.
Yeah.
Um, I think probably the mostprominent one that I always
think of, I'll never forget.
Um, the company I worked forafter 15 years gave a
sabbatical.
And so I took my family toSpain in 2015.

(59:28):
My kids were between the agesof five and 10, and we were in
an area for a while called SanSebastian or Donostia, depending
on which uh which language youum you you use.
Uh it was like four blocks ofsolid, like uh little pubs that
had they called them pinchos, uhor uh they no, well, they'd be
like tapas.

(59:49):
I actually I can't rememberwhat re the regional name was
different, but um, it was likeyou'd have hundreds of like
these little finger, like oneitem dishes.
And so every night you'd you'dtry three.
three or four of them and justyou know it was like everything
was unique, different.
It was artisanal.
They looked beautiful and theywere like t flavors you never
even thought of.
It was so that one's a reallylike I would say my my favorite

(01:00:12):
comfort food is trying somethingnew.

Chris Grainger (01:00:14):
Nice, brother.
Nice.
Love it.
Love it.
What's uh looking back over thelast 12 months, you know, where
did you spend too much timedoing John?
Anything that's been a timewaste for you.

John Wilson (01:00:27):
Yeah, uh that is a hard one.
I would say uh I just just youknow streaming media like
streaming streaming TV like youknow just a TV series those
kinds of things um it's a mixbecause I find I that's like the
one thing that I do that I cankind of unwind we at the you
know like I if I read I get myhead engaged it's like I'm not

(01:00:48):
you know and I and I I would sayI I tend to be a little bit of
a workaholic I think I've reallyimproved on this in years like
I made a pretty big life changedecision career wise five years
ago and so I I feel like I madea big step but it's like it's
hard for me to unplug so I'llwatch TV but then you know I
feel like you know my wifecommented the other day like wow
you've seen so many series uhyou know because I usually don't

(01:01:09):
just watch something until it'sdone so it's like but it's like
yeah I think that's probablynot the best use of my time.
Um I what I would like I'm I'mI think I've been really
intentional with my kids.
I remind everybody how manyweekends they have left with
their kids.
I'm like how old are your kids?
You know 18 minus that numbertimes 52 that's how many
weekends you have left because Ididn't start thinking about
that until I was negative oneand my son went off to college

(01:01:29):
my my oldest and um man it goesso quick.
And so um I would you know I'veI've been really intentional
about spending more time uhbeing influenced with my kids
and I feel like that's one ofthe main I mean that's like the
primary uh ministry God gave meis I got this you know house
full of now teenagers and umyeah so um I should be I should

(01:01:50):
spend less time watching TV andmore time floating in my pool
because that's like the oneplace where I uh just kind of
unplug a little bit and just youknow like uh you know a family
of whoever's around are like heylet's go float for a few you
know for 15 minutes and justhave a conversation and uh just
you know no devices none of thatthat's right love it man love
it what's your favorite thingabout God that is really hard um

(01:02:14):
you know because there'sthere's those easy things to say
like you know God's love uhGod's sacrifice you know all
those things he did for me youlook through scripture and that
is like you know even thatbecomes a self-centered thing
it's like God's done greatthings for me so like life is
good I love God like why whywouldn't we you know the good

(01:02:35):
father um man it's so muchbigger than that like God is you
know just a praise worthybeyond measure and worthy of our
praise you know righteous trueall powerful all-knowing um you
know and just interested youknow I I think to me the fact

(01:02:57):
that I mean if I was God of theuniverse like I gotta tell you
like I would not care about youknow these little ants running
around on a on a on a a littleglobe in the middle of all this
massiveness.
You know I'd be thinking aboutcreating the next thing like I
mean just the fact that he comesinto our lives like he wants to
be involved his interest he'sgiven us scripture so that we

(01:03:18):
can get a glimpse of him youknow C.S.
Lewis talked about like it'slike this world is like a shadow
of heaven of the world to comeand we just get this tiny little
glimpse that he would give usthat and that he would not just
like interact with us like andfrom a high position but send
Jesus to to to be with us tolive here to live that perfect

(01:03:39):
life and then to die just takeall of our sins on himself
defeat death defeat sin um andthen resurrected to life that we
could have life abundantly manwhat is happening you know like
that is just let's go that's itlet's flip it 180 what's what's
your least favorite thing aboutthe evil one oh just so

(01:04:02):
insidious so enticing you knowso um it's just those little
moments you know that it's justlike you're like oh that it felt
so noble when I said it and itwas it was motivated by you know
narcissism it was motivated byyou know self-comfort it was

(01:04:24):
motivated by fear of man it wasmotivated by these things and
it's just pointing back to adeep heart issue and a just a
wrong view of God putting myselfin God's place and it's like it
can be somebody pulling out infront of me a little too close.
It can be it can be uh I thinkI'll serve I'll look really good

(01:04:45):
um you know it's um oh I justwant to do something fun I know
God wants me to do this but I'mjust gonna set that aside it's
those those little things thatthe enemy just uh it knows
exactly what what it is for eachone of us.
He knows exactly what to throwat us.

Got that right brother last question for you
John is what do you hope thelisteners remember the most from
our conversation today?

Yeah I I think humbly serve God take a step out
and do things that you don'tthink are possible.
Be that or you know it's beingas ordinary as we all are like
recognizing that God can doamazing things through ordinary
people.
But in the end just spread thegospel and be totally forgotten.
But Nehemiah was completelyforgotten.

(01:05:32):
That's the one thing we don'treally know about Nehemiah is
when his term of governor ended.
You can look at historicalrecord you can look at all these
things there's there's theorieshe was you know governor for
you know 30 plus years but butwe don't know when it ended.
He was forgotten.
He was forgotten in his owntime and largely forgotten even
in our time even though thestory is there in the Bible.

(01:05:54):
And so I think that's that'sreally ultimately what we're
called to do in the gospel.

Man amen well John where do you want to send
guys to get to get a copy ofyour book to connect with you I
don't know if you have anysocial media platforms areas
that you that you like to servebut yeah definitely point them.

Yeah absolutely um so the book's available on
Amazon but if you go directly tothe publisher it's about five
dollars cheaper so you can getit at gcdiscipleship.com uh
gospel center discipleship isthe publisher um and you can
also even get them even cheaperif you if you're buying books if
you're buying bulk like if youwant to do the workshop guide
that's in there um if you wantto do that with your church like

(01:06:32):
you can buy them uh from thepublisher at a bulk rate too um
I am also uh you know I'vestarted a YouTube channel called
the Nehemiahway uh where I'mI'm kind of showing my work I'm
like digging into like thechapter by chapter through
Nehemiah but also it's just alot of practical things for
millennial pastors that arepassionate about the spread of
the gospel they really want tobuild their churches but want
some practical input um that'sthere as well and then the uh

(01:06:55):
third thing is I have a freeresource kit if you go to the
nehemiaway.com there's a freeresource kit for pastors uh you
can do like an analytic like aalmost like a diagnostic on
mobile mobilizing people in yourchurch um there's a kind of a
checklist for um mobilizingvolunteer leaders and also a
reading list um if you want tohear the audio version of the

(01:07:16):
book of Nehemiah I'm doing areading series right now where
I'm just reading the book eachday it's a 31-day daily reading
um and then there's also onAudible the book is available as
uh as an audio as well so nicenice okay we'll try to get some
of those links in the in theshow notes for you listeners out
there John this has beenawesome thank you so much
brother for for coming on forsharing powerful story here with

(01:07:38):
a Neomile Way so just prayersfor you as you move forward
buddy likewise Chris thanks somuch for having me I love what
you're doing just helping uhthose are just you know awaken
that lion within uh that's itGod has given us love it have a
great day man you too man lifecan feel heavy and too often we

(01:08:00):
try to carry it along at theLion Within Us we build a Christ
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visit thelionwithin.us we'd loveto welcome you in that's

(01:08:40):
thelionwithin.us I'll see youinside all right guys I told you
that was going to be a fun oneso thankful for for John for
sharing go check out theNehemiah way go get a copy of
the book so you're not gonna bedisappointed particularly for
you guys who are in leadershippositions in churches or maybe
like a deacon or something likethat.

(01:09:01):
This gives you a really goodframework on how to take things
to church to think to get to toget the ball moving if you will
okay so our question of the weekthis week is where has God
called you you not not yourbuddy called you to step up and
serve.
Now once you know thatinformation it's one thing to
have it as information in yourin your back pocket it's another
thing to actually put it intowork.

(01:09:22):
Your challenge here listen tothe lion put it into work go do
the thing that he has called youto do that simple.
All right so fellas thank youfor listening come back on
Friday we'll have a fun Fridayepisode with a health well self
tip.
We have some dad jokes for youobviously lots of fun things we
try to encourage you with onyour Fun Friday episodes give us
a rating and review please headover to thelionwithin.us I'm

(01:09:44):
just that's the one assthelionwithin.us check out our
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our community that's an easy wayto start a 30-day free trial
just to see what the communityis all about.
And if you're interested in theleadership mastermind if you're
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journey consider filling out aleadership mastermind

(01:10:05):
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We'll connect we'll have aconversation and we'll see if
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Okay so all that can be foundat thelionwithin.us you can
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Hopefully you guys will enjoythose all right so guys have a

(01:10:28):
great day get after itthelionwithin.us is where you
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the lion within

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597. The Nehemiah Way With John Wilson

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