December 3, 2024 • 49 mins
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a German pastor and theologian, is remembered as being deeply devoted to Christ. Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar talk of Bonhoeffer’s life as being marked by bravery and love for God, making him an inspiring example for Christians wrestling with difficult moral questions. Bonhoeffer, born in 1906, was a key figure in the resistance against Nazism in Germany and ultimately sacrificed his life for his faith and involvement in resistance efforts.
With Hitler’s influence in Germany growing to include the church, Bonhoeffer refused to align with the Riech’s beliefs. His courage was evident as he actively spread the message of resistance across Europe. Although a self-proclaimed pacifist, Bonhoeffer's conviction was tested with his involvement in resisting the Nazis. This moral conflict illustrates that some situations demanded extraordinary measures. He was eventually imprisoned and executed, but even in his death, Bonhoeffer exhibited a profound peace, knowing he had laid down his life for Christ.
The discussion around Bonhoeffer extends to the ethical dilemmas Christians face. Two-thirds of German Christians initially supported Hitler, swayed by his promises to the church. Bonhoeffer, however, warned against nationalism and argued that Christians could not serve both the nation and Christ. His stance was unpopular, but he held firm, believing that truth is non-negotiable. For Bonhoeffer, consequences were irrelevant if they meant compromising his commitment to the Lord. He argued that love for Christ cannot remain silent in the face of tyranny.
In discussing how to handle difficult moral situations, the conversation turns to God's sovereignty. Christians may face yes-or-no questions, but they must discern the deeper implications of their actions. Should one lie to save a life, for example? The guys talk about how lying is sinful, and argue that deception can glorify God if it protects the innocent, as seen in Rahab’s story. The guys offer various perspectives on this topic.
The Bible doesn't provide easy answers to every situation, but it gives believers the guidance they need. Bonhoeffer's life shows that obedience to God often requires standing against the norms of society. Christians must find conviction, pray for guidance, and take action, trusting God with the consequences. Like Bonhoeffer, they are called to stand for truth, love the oppressed, and live without compromise. God’s sovereignty means Christians can trust Him even in the most difficult moral dilemmas, knowing that Christ is at the center of it all.
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Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
In Acts 5, peter and the apostles answered we must
obey God rather than men.
There comes a time where wehave to stand up for what we
believe to be true.
We have to stand upon whatwe've learned.
Maybe we're all familiar withit, but the White Rose
Resistance Group, seth Gruber,had started a ministry, if you
(00:21):
would, that kind of goes in thatrealm of standing up for the
pre-born, having a voice forthem.
But, sophie Skoll, she's theone who the ministry is based on
.
She said stand up for what youbelieve in, even if you're
standing alone.
That we must come to our ownconclusion and stand with it.
Right.
Just because I might have adifferent conviction than you
have, I would now be in sin if Iwere to do anything else,
(00:44):
because whatever's not a faithis sin.
And now there's a greater issuein the midst of it right.
So just because you can or Ican't stand on the laurels of
somebody else's convictiondoesn't mean that one is right
or necessarily wrong.
Name that show Na na na na na nana na na na na na na na na na
(01:07):
na na na na na na na na na na nana na na na na na, na, na, na,
na, na, na, na na na, na, na, na, na, na, na na na na na na na
na na na, na, na, na na na na nana na, na, na, na, na, na, na
na na na na na na, na, na, na,na, na na na na na na, na, na,
na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na,na, na, na na na na na na na, na
, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na na na na na.
In the actual show.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Mission Impossible.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
You don't remember what's happening now.
What's happening?
Speaker 4 (01:27):
What's happening.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Then they came up with a sequel.
What's Happening Now?
Remember Faintly Rerun?
Oh yeah, the big guy and Raj.
Yeah, what he's like, yeah,remember, everyone remembers
that.
How do you guys not know what'shappening?
I have a life.
Know what's happening, I have alife, oh, get with it.
That's another one, okay, letme see Let me see Wait for it,
(01:52):
it's the same one.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
It's the same one.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Come on.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Created some American .
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Hero no Golden.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Spins.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Just a good old boy, dukes of Hazzard, yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Oh, that one didn't sound like Dukes of Hazzard.
I used to watch that Startedgetting through my car window
when I got.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
No, that can be it, mark.
From Mark, what Happy Days.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Laverne and Shirley.
Oh yeah, happy Days was happydays one o'clock no, no two
o'clock.
That's like a song.
Sunday, monday, happy daystuesday okay, but when?
You guys hear those songs,doesn't it just bring up
nostalgia yeah, makes you feelsick, not when you do it.
I like the um, nausea, um, whatwas what?
What were some of your go-tolike sitcoms growing up?
(02:40):
You were probably, you were, uh, probably saved by the bell
kind of guy different strokes uh, I love.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Lucy was like one of my favorite girls actually I
love, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
amazing how old that is, but it's still like my kids.
Yeah, kylie loves it like thequeen of comedy.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Man, she's so amazing yeah, yeah, kirk was invited to
meet her, but he didn't want togo and see her because he
didn't know who she was.
No, that's right, yeah, younever heard that story.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
His mom comes to his trailer and there was a big
event going on and she's likeKirk Lucille Ball's outside.
She wants to talk to you and hegoes tell her I'm busy.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
She wants to meet you .
Speaker 2 (03:14):
That's wild.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Tell her I'm busy him .
And there's.
You are going to see lucille.
I was having dinner at kirk'splace and there's a picture on
the wall and there was a picturein a drawer.
I was going through this drawerwith permission not through the
medicine picture of kirkstanding there with uh, ronald
reagan, lucille ball.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
And yeah, that was the event.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Yeah, yeah, reagan was there yeah yeah, I don't
know who kirk cameron is butlucille ball.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah, that's crazy, boy k Kirk had the world by its
tail, didn't he?
Yeah, I mean he was, he wouldhave probably been, wouldn't you
say, mark, maybe top three likeof that time teenage
heartthrobs, definitely.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
In fact I had asked him, you know, I mean, how
popular were you?
And he said well, listen, I'venever met Britney Spears, but I
could probably get together andhave lunch with her next week.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
I actually made a point.
I went to a Christian retreathigh school students it was
amazing Rose Hill ChristianChurch in Texas.
Shout out to those guys, man.
All those kids were amazing.
But anyways, I made a pointthat I I said show of hands, who
remembers the name of theirgreat great grandfather?
(04:31):
And out of 150, 200 students,like two raised their hands.
And then I said, okay, show ofhands, who knows who?
Kirk cameron is?
Zero hands raise their hands.
And I made the point kirkcameron was like the Justin
Bieber of like the 1940s orwhatever it was, 40s Exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I'm joking.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
I said.
But here's the point is like,no matter how hard you work, no
matter how famous you think youcould become, you could be the
next Justin Bieber and in 30years no one will remember you.
Your great great grandchildrenprobably won't remember your
first name.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
However, Judas wrecked that.
Judas wrecked that.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
However, instead of I made the point instead of
trying to build up our own humankingdom, we can raise up the
fame in the name of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
Right, that's a good point.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I was trying to think who my great-great-grandpa
would be and I thought my dadwas 113.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
It was him, george.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Washington.
That's crazy.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
Yeah, it was John Wayne.
He's in Airport, isn't he inCalifornia?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Oh, yeah, that's right.
Yeah, it is crazy when youthink about that and the things
we don't remember.
It's hard to think about thethings you don't remember, the
reason I said that is that therewas something I was going to
say and I don't remember what itwas, do you?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
ever think about the things you don't remember.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, all right, it's time for a cool, classy comment
.
This is from Fraser Nelson.
Nice and simple, nice andsimple, nice and simple.
Fraser from Australia Great job.
I've begun my journey to Christthanks to you guys.
Keep up the great work.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
God bless, fraser, let's go.
That's so Australian, by theway.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Oh, my goodness, what would be sweeter than an email
like that.
Thank you so much, fraser, andkeep going.
Keep pursuing the Savior.
And now a radicallyrevolutionary resource.
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(06:36):
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I like the sound of it.
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Me, me, a week in advance, me, yeah, what's that
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Yeah, so, for example, today'sepisode, if you're listening to
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Speaker 4 (07:24):
So if you want to, watch us a week in advance.
Today's episode came out a weekago, I know right.
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That's amazing, that's amazing.
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Because I remember you asking can I watch it on my?
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Speaker 1 (08:16):
Her name is Elaine let's go Executive assistant
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Speaker 2 (08:19):
Waters.
Big blessing to us and a bigfan of Diedrich Bonhoeffer,
thanks for joining us, lane.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
She asked Lane.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
She did.
What a blessing.
Yeah, what a blessing.
All right, friends, as youheard, today we're talking about
Diedrich Bonhoeffer, which Markspelled wrong earlier on a
slate to died rich Bonhoeffer,and the dilemmas Christians face
in time.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
Time Switch.
The I and the E Didn't you havean electrician at your church.
What was?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
his name oh get rich, oh rich, Not get rich.
Oh yeah, Me too what?
Speaker 4 (08:59):
was his name.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
His name was Rich Quick.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Rich Quick, rich Quick, yes, and you'd say, hey,
get Rich Quick, I got a problem.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
That's what his wife said.
She got Rich Quick, yeah.
So anyway, guys, diedrichBonhoeffer, you know, as soon as
I hear that name, immediately,you know, you hear names and
they conjure things up.
I just think courage, I thinkbravery, I think love for Christ
.
But as I've been exploring himeven more, getting ready for the
podcast, I didn't even scratchthe surface on the depth of this
(09:32):
man and the massive impact thathe's had.
Our good friend that Rayactually went on his program.
Our friend Eric Metaxas he's mytax man, he does, metaxas.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
I wonder if he's ever heard that before.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
I know People try to do that on me.
Take it easy Like I've neverheard it.
Anyway, diedrich Bonhoeffer wasreally covered well by Eric
Metaxas.
I mean, it's become probablyone of the most popular books on
him within Christianity, Iwould say, and I think he did a
(10:12):
good treatment.
I was able to glean a littlebit from him on some of the
things that I discovered abouthim.
But, bonhoeffer if anyone wantsto give us some insight on him,
to kick us off rather than mecontinuing to talk and talk and
talk Oscar.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Mark Dietrich Bonhoeffer is.
Yeah, I've read a few of hisbooks or what have been
accompanied to be consideredbooks.
So the Cost of Discipleship isone of them.
I have not read that one, but Idid read Life Together, which
is incredible, and I also readLetters and Papers from Prison,
which is incredible.
And I also read letters andpapers from prison, which is
(10:47):
really good.
I finished Eric Metaxas' bookyears ago, which got me
interested in DietrichBonhoeffer, and then I read I'm
going to butcher this name, butthe official biographer there's
a ton of biographies onBonhoeffer.
The official one is byFerdinand Schleichenstein.
I'm not even close.
But you know there is adifference between reading like
(11:09):
when a Christian or a pastorwrites a book about like a
historic figure.
It's actually I learned thisnew phrase it's called a
hagiography, which is like this.
It's like a biography feed thatidealizes a person.
When you read a historian'sversion of a person or event,
you get like a really complexfigure.
(11:32):
And that would be my takeawayfrom Ferdinand's book is that
Dietrich Bonhoeffer is a complexfigure.
He had a deep devotion for theLord.
He struggled with anger issues.
He was a conflicted man.
He was a deep devotion for theLord.
He struggled with anger issues.
He was a conflicted man.
He was a man who was engaged toa woman and never even got to
spend a day with her outside ofprison.
(11:53):
Essentially, they never gotmarried Half his age, by the way
.
Yeah, yeah, again, a man ofconflict Like.
He was a member of theAbyssinian Baptist Church in
Harlem, which was an all-blackcongregation.
Imagine a German theologiangoing to worship at an all-black
congregation.
I love that.
So he was a complex figure.
(12:14):
That wasn't perfect by anymeans.
And then he was complex in thefact that he talked about being
a pacifist, yet he was involvedin a plot to assassinate Hitler.
So he's a fascinating figurethat I can't get enough of as
well.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah, so Bonhoeffer.
For those of you that do notknow, as Oscar alluded to, he
was a German pastor, theologian,and a key figure in resisting
the Nazi regime.
This is during World War II.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
And he was hanged.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah, that's right, 1906 to 1945 was his lifespan
and I think that the devotionand dedication that he had for
Christ is what I think haselevated him to being so
intriguing.
Because of what you said, oscar, there seems to be a conflict.
Right, I mean, he's trying toknock out Hitler, but he's a
(13:04):
theologian and a pastor and I'mexcited to talk about, kind of
his spiritual roots, especiallywhat happened in New York when
he came out here.
But, ray, you were especiallyexcited to talk about this
episode.
Hey, we're going to talk aboutBonhoeffer.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
No, I wasn't doing any study on Bonhoeffer.
I didn't do a minute on him.
What I did was how would wereply to Nazis who came to the
door and said are there Jews inthis home?
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, because that's what we're going to be talking
about as well.
The dilemma of what do you doright?
And this is a question that alot of Christians are faced with
in terms of a dilemma broughtup what do you do?
Do you lie?
Is it a lie?
Is it not a lie?
Do you hide them, do you not?
Was Corrie Ten Boom an evil,wicked, nasty woman, or did she
do what was right and righteous?
Speaker 4 (13:44):
So yeah, I've been thinking about this for about 40
years and I still haven't cometo a conclusion.
Seriously about what no aboutthe whole thing?
Do you lie to the Nazis come?
To the door.
Your wife is a Jew, isn't she?
Is she hiding in this house?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yeah, I'm so excited we're we can talk about it.
What are you talking about?
Yes, we do and we could talkabout it, so I tried to hold it,
but we talk about it in loveand in a civil way, and always
be suspicious if those that areclose always agree on everything
(14:29):
.
You should really be suspicious.
So it's good to have somediffering views on secondary,
tertiary issues.
So we may end up there todayWe'll see.
I don't know, but I'm excitedwe're going to talk about this.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
We better come to a conclusion, otherwise you're
going to get a call from me,easy.
There's a couple of Nazis in myfront door and they're asking
me if I'm.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Jewish.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
What do I say?
I haven't worked it out yet.
What do I?
Speaker 1 (14:50):
say I know I have an opinion on that.
I'd love to answer that.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, Mark, I'm excited to hear you.
I think I've heard you sharesome of that before it's worth
sharing again, but yeah, soagain a little more on
Bonhoeffer and kind of what hedid.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
What does the name Bonhoeffer mean in English?
I've tried to find it and Ican't find it Bon with offer.
That's exactly what I came tothe same conclusion.
Seriously what does it mean?
I have no idea.
I can look it up.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
You won't find anything.
It might mean nothing.
Everything says.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
German theologian.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
It doesn't say the meaning of the word, no matter
how specific you are Lane.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
do you know what Bonhoeffer means?
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Oh, even the legendary Lane doesn't know Side
note which oftentimes whenpeople write about history we
over-dramatize it, but actuallyhis death is not over-dramatized
.
Did you know that they killedhim 11 days before that area of
Germany was?
Free, he was 11 days away fromfreedom.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Yeah, isn't that wild .
I mean, one biographer saidthat he could hear the gunshots
of the Americans coming, butHitler being as petty as he was
because, again, he was in prisonfor a long time.
But he said kill everyone thatcame against him.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
They did the same thing with concentration camps
Slaughter them before theAmericans could.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, the same thing with concentration camps,
slaughter them before theAmericans could.
Yeah, so Bonhoeffer came from avery sort of sophisticated type
family.
They were all like kind ofprodigies in his family.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Like us.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah, like me, his dad was a scientist.
I think he was one of the mostforemost in Germany.
One of his brothers worked onstuff with Einstein, all of them
were just really smart.
He had a twin sister.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Identical Deidre.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I'm sure people ask that.
I have a twin sister Identical,yeah, and so you know.
She actually married a man ofJewish descent.
He was a believer but he wasfrom a Jewish heritage and so,
bonhoeffer, his dad was agnostic, his mom seemed to be a devout
Christian.
He had a couple of governessesthat raised them.
(16:54):
They were believers and itinfluenced him.
So he had a hunger for the Lordfrom a young age, comes to the
US at 24 and goes to a blackchurch in New York and was just
mesmerized and this wasinteresting.
He said no one in New York waspreaching the gospel.
This was one of the first fewchurches he found that was
actually preaching the gospel.
There was a lot of liberalismgoing on back there, and so that
(17:18):
stirs him up.
He tries to get records of whatdo they call them spirituals,
black spirituals or whateverthey called them and takes them
back to Germany and, just youknow, starts getting.
And then he starts feeling aburden for what was going on
with Hitler.
He was unwilling to become apart of the Reich church.
I mean, the Lutheran churchthere had really become Hitler's
(17:40):
church in a sense.
He was trying to remake it,reshift it, and leaders in the
church, even though they weren'tsympathetic to Hitler, they
were like, oh, you're being alittle too overzealous about
this.
But he saw it, he was a stepahead.
He saw where this was going andhis heart was the church needs
to stand up.
And so he ends up, you know,being in a place where they
(18:01):
wanted to draft him.
He thought there's no way Icould be a part of Hitler's you
know agenda.
So he comes to the US thinking,okay, I'll go there, I'll teach
.
He was only here, I think, 26days and gets burdened by God to
go back and be a part of it.
So he goes back and thenbecomes a part of the government
that, a part of the governmentthat was opposed to the Gestapo,
(18:22):
which they were kind of like,at odds with each other.
They were pro-Hitler, and theseguys realized we need to take
this guy out so he comes underthem under the guise of making
connections with other Christianleaders in other countries.
But the whole point was to getthe word out.
There's a resistance going onin Germany.
Sadly Churchill wouldn't givehim an audience, he wouldn't
hear him out, but that's whathappened and then ends up, you
(18:43):
know, becoming a part of that,gets found out being a part of
the plotting of hitler'sassassination.
Obviously that was foiled, butthen gets locked up and then, as
you shared, he ends up dying inthe car.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
Was that the famous one where the bomb was put under
the table with this plot of?
Speaker 2 (18:56):
plot I believe that.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
I believe that was, wasn't it?
I thought it was a differentone he's talking about there was
dozens of plots.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
Valkyrie oh yeah, I think that was a different one.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah, so anyway.
So that's kind of a story.
But you think of that dilemma,right?
Some say he was a pacifist.
I heard Metaxas say he reallywasn't actually, but that he
just, you know, kind of wasopposed to Hitler's agenda.
It's not that he was against, Imean, obviously he was going to
kill Hitler.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Well, that's the thing, that's a moment of
conflict, is that a lot of, Ithink, biographers and
historians would say?
If you read his writings, he heappears to be a pacifist and he
was in a moment of conflict andultimately sided with, because
Augustine is like, if you readAugustine, he was mostly a
pacifist as well, and he's theone that came up with the
(19:45):
theology of just war.
And so some would argue thatBonhoeffer fits in that same
category, that he was a pacifistup until necessity, which is
what pacifism, from anAugustinian perspective, would
be.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Yeah, is that what Bonhoeffer said?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Bonhoeffer, he's a great example of what it means
to boldly stand for Christ inthe midst of tyranny.
A couple of scriptures come tomind.
In Luke 9, he said to all Ifanyone would come after me, let
him deny himself and take up hiscross daily and follow me.
And then Matthew 10, 28.
Do not fear those who can killthe body but cannot kill the
(20:23):
soul.
Rather fear him who can destroyboth soul and body in hell.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, he saidwhen Christ calls a man, he bids
him to come and die.
That is the calling.
This is unlike any otherworldview that is out there,
right, Because every otherworldview, if you think about it
, it's what they can offer youand how you can have something
better, Even within Islam, right, you can have X amount of
(20:45):
virgins that are waiting for youat your death.
It's just the men, not women.
It's just the men.
Yeah, yes, I lost my train ofthought right now.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Thank, you, ray Comfort.
It's really nice Lady.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
you die for the cause of Islam and there's 70 men
waiting for you.
Distraction brought to you byRain Comfort Squirrel.
Yeah, oh man.
I love that quote, mark, that'sa good one.
I want to connect with thatquote, like in the very depths
of my heart.
One of the things that was saidabout Bonhoeffer is how he died
with such peace.
Like you know, he was somesmerized by the reality of
(21:22):
eternity.
He was so mesmerized by thereality of eternity, by the fact
that our lives are.
Christ is worthy of us layingour lives down for Him.
And so I think sometimes it'sbeen said by someone that
Bonhoeffer would rebuke us forlamenting his death.
He would say no, no it was a joyto lay my life down for the
sake of Christ.
Speaker 4 (21:43):
Yes, I love that, but I want to.
He was living in prison.
He didn't have a big screen TVand a good dog.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Hey, it's major boat.
I wonder how you do in thatscenario, Ray.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Oh, no good, Please help.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
But I want to connect with that in my heart and my
life.
That Christ bids us to come,die Right For me to live as
Christ, to die is gain.
That the crucified life is partand parcel with the disciples'
life.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Even against his own people.
I think that's one of thethings that stood out to me most
.
Before we hit record, mark andI were talking, two-thirds of
the German Christians supportedHitler, and that might be a
shocker to some people, but youhave to remember, in 1933,
hitler wasn't the Adolf Hitlerwe now know that he was.
In 1933, he was a bumblingpolitician that was preaching
(22:36):
nationalism, promising torestore Germany to their former
glory by removing the minoritiesout of their country, and there
was a lot of the church.
I mean, germany was separatedfrom the theologians of
(22:57):
resistance to the Christianpastors and preachers that were
supporting this idea, and so, atthe very beginning, most
Christians welcome Hitler.
Hitler didn't intimidate thechurch.
He seduced the church throughpromises, and Dietrich
Bonhoeffer was in a minority.
He was ostracized from his ownpeople because he didn't fall
(23:18):
into tribalism.
Alongside of them, he spokeagainst the guy that was
promising these GermanChristians everything they
wanted.
You know, he like he was kindof one, even though these aren't
his words directly.
He was kind of the one thatpreached you can be a
nationalist and you can be aChristian, but you can't be both
.
And so it's again like that'swhat I love about him.
What I love about him is he waslike man.
(23:40):
Actually one of the.
Ferdinand Schleichenbeinsbergersaid this.
He said there were never toomany that agreed with him.
Think about that Like toDietrich Bonhoeffer to pick up
your cross and to follow him wasto follow him even outside of
your own tribe.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
It's also important to remember that Hitler was a
believer in God and often quotedscripture, and you can read all
about the details in a bookcalled Hitler, god and the Bible
, written by Ray Comfort.
Ray Comfort, it's veryinteresting.
Yeah, you know, and actually180 was supposed to be about
Hitler's religion.
Remember that.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Yeah, I do it had so much interest.
Yeah, oscar man, to be a voicethat is true to God, to
recognize we stand before anaudience of one.
You know you think of whatJesus said woe to you if all men
speak well of you.
You know you think ofAthanasius, who was a defender
of the triune God.
(24:37):
You know I mean.
When they told him, athanasius,the world is against you.
He said no, it's Athanasius,the world is against you.
He said no, it's Athanasiusagainst the world.
I love that heart and thatmindset of look, truth is truth.
I'm not licking my finger andputting it up to see where the
wind is blowing.
I'm not looking to see whatpopular guys are agreeing or
disagreeing.
I have a heart that says Lord,all that matters is what you say
(25:02):
and I'm willing to die on thathill.
You know we share that quote.
Oftentimes it's not a hill todie on.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
Calvary is the hill to die on.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Amen.
It's got to be based on thegospel, it's got to be based on
the crucial things that we can'thelp but die for and, at the
end of the day, that's really atrue Christian.
It's one that's saying look,consequences are irrelevant,
they're irrelevant.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
So that means this commitment of mine to the Lord
is non-negotiable.
I never thought I'd ever hearyou say that Consequences are
irrelevant, Because anytime I dosomething you say consequences,
he's going to quote you now.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
You've traumatized me .
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Ray, with your lack of care for consequences.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
But this is the one area where we say come what may,
Torture me, torment me, kill me.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
Tickle me, Of course I don't want to.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Oh no, of course.
We're not gluttons forpunishment.
We're not looking and sayingcome on and do this.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
It's a badge of honor .
Speaker 2 (26:00):
No, but if it happens , it happens.
I'm going to be true to theLord, Mark.
We need more of that today.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
We do John Knox.
He said a man with God willalways be in the majority and if
you realize that God is for you, it doesn't matter who is
against you.
And this is why DietrichBonhoeffer was really the first
person and I'm sure there'sother stories out there, I just
throw it out there because it'swhat I'm familiar with the first
one to really come up with theessential church, right, we see
(26:32):
that grace to you created theessential church after COVID,
where we have the churchstanding up to a tyrannical
government.
Well, this is what DiedrichBonhoeffer did.
He stood up to a tyrannicalgovernment because he had great
quote silence in the face ofevil is itself evil.
God will not hold us guiltless.
Not to speak is to speak andnot to act is to act Right.
So love cannot keep silent.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
That'd be a good song , love can't stay silent, and
audacity, and audacity, audacitythat was really a good song.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
It was yeah, anyway.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
No, whenever you guys come up with your squirrels, it
totally loses my train ofthought.
But it is so good you weretalking about hot dogs, winters
and souls Hot dogs.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Anyway, it was really good, mark, thank you.
Thank you, mark, appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Mark.
This is a good quote byBonhoeffer.
He said Cheap grace is thegrace we bestow on ourselves.
Cheap grace is the preaching offorgiveness without requiring
repentance, baptism withoutchurch discipline, communion
without confession.
Cheap grace is grace withoutdiscipleship, grace without the
cross, grace without JesusChrist living and incarnate.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
Cheap grace is not amazing grace Ooh nice.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
That's a quote by Ray Comptonick I just came to mind
right now um, isn't thatpowerful though, you guys.
I mean, I think it's a glimpseinto the man's soul.
You know he was black and white.
Like it's not.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
There's no compromise , there's no gray area here he
was white in a black church innew york.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Oh, that's right that's right, uh, but yeah, I, I
love that, uh, but, but yeah,so let's.
But yeah, I knew you guys weregoing to point out, but yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
I didn't, but you thought it.
No, yeah, I thought it, but Ididn't I thought it.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Dude next mug.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
But yeah, but yeah I haven't thought about it, yet
but yeah, but yeah, okay.
So let's get down to the nittygritty.
Let's talk about our thoughtson how do we handle that If that
happens today and we findourselves in positions because,
look, bonhoeffer was obviouslyin scenarios, he was a spy, so
(28:34):
obviously he was, at the veryleast, misleading right, giving
a false impression of who he wasand what he was doing.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
You mean living a lie .
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Well, if you want to call it that.
I would beg to differ on that,but that's how it would appear.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
I wouldn't call it that.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Merci beaucoup.
So why do I insert French?
What purpose does that serve?
Speaker 4 (28:57):
You don't want to amuse yourself, it should have
been German to stay in line.
And we apologize to Germanlisteners.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
So, ray, you were eager to talk about this.
You've researched this?
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Yeah, I've never haven't come to a conclusion.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
You still don't have a conclusion.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
What's that?
No, I haven't come to aconclusion all these years.
What do I say if Nazis come tothe door and say your wife's
Jewish, is she in this house?
Oh yeah, she's hiding up underthe bed upstairs.
Do I tell them the truth?
Do I go dumb?
Do I act insane?
Which what you guys could doeasily.
I mean just start dribblinglike David did in the Old
Testament?
How do you answer it?
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Do you?
Speaker 4 (29:31):
say no, do I say yes?
You know you get to heaven.
And Gabriel said well, it'sjust common sense, you don't
want to be complicit with theNazis to murder your wife.
So what'd you tell him thetruth for?
You know, do you look to the?
The uh, the woman, that, that,uh, what are?
They gave birth to the moses,what they called uh midwives
midwives yeah, the came back tomoses.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
What?
Speaker 2 (29:51):
are they called?
Speaker 4 (29:54):
midwives.
They, they lied, they weren'ttruthful, and is that a
precedent for us?
So yeah, what do you say whenthe nazis come to your door?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
okay, good questions.
Mark is champing.
It's actually champing at thebit, not chomping, but we say
chomping, so we'll say Marcuschomping at the bit.
Well, no.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Listen, I think that if we had a lofty view of God's
sovereignty, that we don't haveto play by their rules, that's
the thing right, because they'recoming to you with a yes or no,
it's the same thing with do youstill beat your wife?
No, right Stopped.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
Why'd you stop?
I stopped, I just got sick ofit oh no.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
This is going to be taken out of context.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
I was like a joke, have you or have you not?
Though it's a yes or no,question it.
They don't get to call theshots even though they're
holding the gun.
So you mean you change thesubject?
Well, you can, in one degree,right.
Having a lofty view of Godmeans that God is in control,
and I would lean more towardsnot lying, but not playing by
(31:02):
their rules.
What does that look like?
Right, we have the story, right,of having our friends that
started, really, an orphanagethere in northern Uganda, and we
had a friend of ours from ourministry that went out.
There was part of it and therewas a guy who came in with a gun
.
You remember the story, right?
He came in with a gun and hewas going to kill people and he
did kill some people and ourfriend Mike went up and he did
(31:23):
kill some people and our friendMike went up and he said don't
you fear God?
Do you not fear God?
With boldness, he came into thescenario and the situation and
he was not killed in the midstof it.
So how would I respond?
How can you respond?
So how did the guy answer?
Well, I don't think he spokeEnglish.
All right so what if you justresponded with a preaching and a
(31:46):
rebuking of the individual?
What if you just startedpreaching the law and the gospel
to the individual?
What if you called down fireupon the individual?
I'm not saying to do that, butI'm just simply saying a yes or
no question does not necessarilyrequire a yes or no answer.
You can rebuke them in the nameof Jesus.
Stand on the laurels that Godis for you, that the angel of
(32:09):
the Lord sings songs ofdeliverance around his people,
that God is your portion andyour inheritance and he's your
defender.
What if you just simply rebukedthat person in the name of
Jesus and just preached the lawand the gospel and trusted the
results to the Lord, not sayingyes not saying no.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
Great scenario Nazis come to your door.
Do you think you're a goodperson?
Speaker 2 (32:32):
I would just start singing to them.
What song would that be?
Speaker 1 (32:37):
I am Pippi Longstocking.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Okay, so I think she was German too.
They'd like that.
Mark, I love what you're sayingand, more than that, I love the
heart behind it.
Because the heart behind it isI want to honor the Lord in all
things.
Christ is supreme.
My allegiance is to him.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Let me give you my I can hear my wife calling out
from under the bed upstairsdon't do that, honey.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Lie, please lie.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
I'm not here, Lie please
Speaker 1 (33:08):
honey.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Okay, because I've wrestled with this throughout my
Christian walk and I waver,because I do lean one way.
But then I hear you say thisand you've talked about this
before, and I'm influenced and Iwant to be persuaded toward
truth.
Here's my statement on this.
I would say under nocircumstance would I lie, under
(33:36):
no circumstance would I bedeceitful.
This is my question Me givingmisleading information to Nazis
that are about to murder people,would god count that?
Would he accredit that to me asa lie?
Would he accredit that to me asas wicked deception?
(33:56):
That's the question that I face.
And in the same way, I say like,obviously you shall not kill,
but we understand that life istaken, but we know that that is
the unjust taking of life, it'smurder.
So if I'm a government officialand someone committed murder and
I implement capital punishment,I judge them to do that, or I
even flip the switch on theelectric chair or whatever they
(34:19):
do these days, would that beaccredited to me as murder, in
keeping with that commandmentkilling, taking a life, whatever
and I lean toward no.
In other words, I believe thatlying is an intentional
deception for selfish reasons.
I don't believe that if a Nazicomes and says, yeah, we're here
(34:42):
to kill your wife, is she inthe house?
And I say, no, that God isgoing to accredit that to me as
lying, in accordance with thecommandment to not lie.
That that's the meaning of it.
That's where I kind of lean,because, mark, sometimes you
have scenarios so sometimes it'snot like as easy as just you
know telling them oh, or askingthem another question, because
it could be like, okay, thatmeans we know she's here.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
That's so good.
Yeah, so again.
And that may be where, becauseI don't think she can die unless
God says it's time for her todie.
Right?
All of her days were writtenbefore there was one of them,
right?
Speaker 2 (35:14):
But I still wrestle with how God works naturally
within the supernatural, and soI just look at that and I say
you know, there are practicalthings that have to happen.
It could be now.
A gun is to your child's head.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Why am I the child?
Speaker 4 (35:30):
Is that loaded.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
A gun's to your child's head.
Is your wife here or not?
And if you don't give us ananswer in three seconds, we're
pulling the trigger.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
You can't pull that trigger.
I don't think you can, I don'tthink you have the ability to
pull that trigger without Godgiving you that permission.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Yeah, so that I mean, that's what?
Sorry, oscar, I need to keepbreathing.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
No, sorry, sorry, I don't mean to be no, no, no,
it's good.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
But one more thing too.
And then sometimes you have,like you have covert issues,
like where someone needs to be aspy and they have to act like
someone they're not.
They have to use a differentname.
All that could be seen as lyingor deception.
And that's where I would stepback and say, even as I look at
the lives of the children ofIsrael and I'm not saying we
base doctrine on narrative, ofcourse, but do we see something
(36:16):
implied in there?
And my take as it stands now isI don't think that the Lord
accredits that to your account,and I think he works practically
in some ways of I'm not gonnadie until God wants me to and I
jump off a bridge.
Is that testing God?
So those are the things Iwrestle with.
Oscar breathe and speak.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Yeah, it's been a while since I've explored this,
but I did years ago.
I was really thought throughthis, and one of the things that
we have to wrestle with too,from your perspective, mark, is
Rahab lies in the very act ofher.
Lying is accredited to her asrighteousness.
(37:00):
In other words, god, thescriptures, doesn't say in spite
of Rahab's lie, god accreditedto her as righteousness.
Her act of lying was a sign ofher faith in God and therefore
it's accredited to her asrighteous.
And just one other examplewould be Joshua sending spies
(37:22):
into the promised land.
In other words, the OldTestament, god uses spies, whose
job is deception, to work outhis good, to bring people to the
promised land.
Now that points us back to thephrase bearing false witness,
and we have to ask ourselveswhat does that even mean?
What does it mean to bear falsewitness?
(37:43):
Our quick translation intoEnglish is don't lie, but is
that too broad of a category?
What do we mean by not lying?
Do we categorize Rahab'sstatement as a lie?
Do we categorize it as bearinga false witness?
And if you look at old Jewishtexts again, it's been a really
long time I didn't know.
This is the direction of theconversation we're going in
(38:03):
Proof, our podcast is unscripted, but if you look at the
original, if you look,remembering correctly, it is the
statement against the truth ofthe image of God.
So, in other words, for me togo around telling somebody that
(38:23):
you're something you're not, isme making a statement that mars,
who you are created by, in God,or another way of looking at it
.
And this is we're coming downto situational ethics here.
Another way of looking at it,and we're coming down to
situational ethics here.
Another way of looking at it isthat a lie is a sin because it
doesn't glorify the Lord.
(38:43):
But if me protecting a Jewishperson hiding in my basement, if
Rahab protecting the spies, ifthe spies acting in a deceptive
manner is done to bring aboutthe glory of God, you know it's
situational ethics Is it betterfor me to tell the truth, to
avoid the truth, or to protectan image bearer in God?
(39:07):
In that situation, in my mind,it's a no brainer.
In my mind, I'd have the fullconfidence, like Rahab did, to
say I got nothing for you, man,I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
There's nobody there.
Let it be known, though, thatshe was not commended for her
lie.
She was commended for her faith.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Right, which is acted out in her righteousness I'm
sorry acted out in her act oflying.
The lie is connected.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
The lie is I think there's a connection.
I agree with you that there's aconnection.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
Yeah, it's working out.
Your faith in works, her faithworked out in the work of
deception.
That's the thing that you haveto wrestle with.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Right and I agree with that.
I'm just saying that there'snever a commendation based upon
the lie that it was somethingelse which leads me to believe
that there perhaps is more tothe story in the midst of that.
I think that we shine a lightupon the lie instead of shining
a light upon the faith itself,whatever that means.
And remember that the Bibledoes not tell us everything we
(39:59):
want to know, but everything weneed to know, and Jesus is the
central figure of the story.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Absolutely.
And no good points, guys.
And Oscar, here's again what Iwould say, and it's natural for
us to use that language when yousay, you know, rahab lied, but
I would say that I wouldn't, Idon't know, that I would call
that a lie because, again, likeyou're saying, what is the
definition of a lie?
It's like, you know, if we see,you know, the children of
(40:31):
Israel wiping out the Canaanitesand we say they murdered them,
no, they didn't, that was justjudgment from God, so we
wouldn't define it as that, andso that's kind of, again, where
I'm at.
I think that.
But let me just say this is avery slippery slope.
I recognize that and we have tobe careful, because I think this
is only acceptable in very rare, rare circumstances, Because we
(40:52):
could say well, hey, I did thisto save that person from
getting in trouble, or I didthis so this went, or the pastor
was in adultery, but I didn'twant to hurt the congregation
Exactly.
That's good, ray, and that's why, Mark, I really sympathize with
your view and why I getpersuaded by it, Because it's
like I'm terrified of theslippery slope.
You know me like.
Consistency is a big thing forme.
You need to be consistent, soit's tough.
(41:14):
Ray, what do you think of allthis?
Speaker 4 (41:16):
I admire someone who can trust God.
When the door opens, nazis arethere and I totally trust the
Lord.
But what's that?
I didn't have faith that Marxgot and there wasn't a miracle.
The Nazis didn't get blinded.
And they just go upstairs grabmy wife.
She walks past, say sorry,honey, you're going to get raped
until you starve to death in aconcentration camp, but I didn't
want to transgress myconscience, sorry honey.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
So that's the dilemma I have.
Yeah, because, see, my thoughtis again, I would never say well
for this case.
Sorry God, I'm going to have tosin against you to do this.
That's contrary to everythingwe believe and say, but that's
what I'm saying.
I don't think that's what we'redoing in that instance.
So it's like, lord, I'm goingto have to rob this bank.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
I know you say don't steal, but I got to do it, but
the orphans need the moneyExactly right, good point, but I
think, yeah, let's go bankrobbing.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
He's going to be like his aunt.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
Yeah, my aunt robbed banks.
Only four, only four, that'sright.
So you know what I'm saying.
Like it's just not, it's not aquestion, no matter what happens
.
And that goes back to what Italked about earlier.
The non-negotiables rightConsequences are what they are.
But that that's where I'msaying.
I don't believe that it'snecessarily a sin and God would
(42:29):
credit that to us as lying.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
So no confession is necessary.
That's what I would, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
I think so.
In that case, I would say, no,that was a righteous thing.
That's not what God meant whenhe talked about lying, when
you're acting in the instance ofa spy or, you know, trying to
save people.
Speaker 4 (42:43):
I think we're talking about the spirit of the law and
I take consolation in the factthat Jesus said to the religious
hypocrites and legalists haveyou not read where David grabbed
the bread and ate it?
Ooh yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
That's actually good insight.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Finally.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Yeah, so I think this is again such a healthy
discussion.
We need to think through thisas believers, and I'm open, like
I'm totally open, to becorrected and you know what are
you looking at?
Speaker 4 (43:12):
A couple of soldiers at the door.
What Nazis Can you imagine?
What are you looking at?
A couple of soldiers at thedoor.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
What Nazis Can you imagine like?
In real time we're faced withthis.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
What a coincidence In Acts 5, peter and the apostles
answered we must obey God ratherthan men.
There comes a time where wehave to stand up for what we
believe to be true, amen.
We have to stand upon whatwe've learned.
Maybe we're all familiar withit, but the White Rose
Resistance Group, seth Gruber,had started a ministry, if you
(43:43):
would.
That kind of goes in that realmof standing up for the pre-born
, having a voice for them.
But Sophie Skoll, she's the onewho the ministry is based on.
She said stand up for what youbelieve in, even if you're
standing alone.
That we must come to our ownconclusion and stand with it.
Just because I might have adifferent conviction than you
have, I would now be in sin if Iwere to do anything else,
(44:06):
because whatever's not a faithis sin.
And now there's a greater issuein the midst of it.
So just because you can or Ican't stand on the laurels of
somebody else's convictiondoesn't mean that one is right
or necessarily wrong.
Now you guys have all jumpedthrough hoops to come to your
conclusions and I think, that'sreally interesting, you guys
really are.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
You have the right to be wrong, mark.
I love this quote by Bonhoeffer.
He said Silence in the face ofevil is itself evil.
God will not hold us guiltless.
Not to speak is to speak, notto act is to act.
I mean, again, this is whatfueled this guy.
It was like no, no, it's not.
Oh Lord, I'll pray and justhope you deal with this.
(44:47):
I see a massive problem.
I have a conviction that thisneeds to be fixed.
I can be a part of it and comewhat may, do you think he likes
cereal?
Bon Hoffa, bon Hoffa.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
Do you?
Speaker 1 (45:01):
think he likes cereal Ray.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Everyone likes cereal .
Are you cereal?
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Yeah, oscar, we really don't want to hear what
you have to say.
I want to hear it.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
Oscar, do you have any final thoughts?
Not on that, but I do think.
Actually I've got a quote it'sa little long by Dietrich
Bonhoeffer, but, on the note,one of the things that often he
doesn't get enough credit for ishow he stood up for the
oppressed and how he recognizedthe image-bearing quality in all
of us and how he pushed againstthe us versus them mentality
that was happening in Germanyand how he pushed against the us
(45:32):
versus them mentality that washappening in Germany.
And so I have somewhat of along quote, but it's beautiful.
Speaker 4 (45:36):
He says this.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
It's about 45 minutes long.
The way I read it, thereremains an experience of
incomparable value.
We have for once learned to seethe great events of the world
history from below, from theperspective of the outcasts, the
suspects, the maltreated, thepowerless, the oppressed, the
reviled, in short, from theperspective of those who suffer.
(46:01):
The important thing is neitherthat bitterness nor envy should
have gnawed at the heart duringthis time, that we should have
come to look with new eyes atmatters, great and small, sorrow
and joy, strength and weakness.
That our perception ofgenerosity, humanity, justice
and mercy should have becomeclearer, freer or less
(46:23):
corruptible.
We have to learn that personalsuffering is a more effective
key, a more rewarding principlefor exploring the world and
thought and action than personalgood fortune.
We have been silent witnesses ofevil deeds.
We have been drenched by manystorms.
(46:43):
We have learned the arts ofequivocation and pretense.
Experience has made ussuspicious of others and kept us
from being truthful and openothers and kept us from being
truthful and open.
Intolerable conflicts have wornus down and even made us
cynical.
Are we still of any use?
(47:03):
What we need is not geniuses orcynics or misanthropes or clever
tacticians, but plain, honest,straightforward men, will our
inward power of resistance bestrong enough, and our honesty
with ourselves remorselessenough for us to find our way
back to simplicity andstraightforwardness?
Whoever despises another humanbeing will never be able to make
(47:27):
anything of him.
Nothing of what we despise inanother is itself foreign to us.
We must learn to regard peopleless in light of what we despise
in another is itself foreign tous.
We must learn to regard peopleless in light of what they do or
admit to do, and more in lightof what they suffer.
The only fruitful relation tohuman beings, particularly to
(47:48):
the weak among them, is love,and that God did not hold human
beings into contempt but becamehuman for their sake, that's so
good man and I love what he saidStraight, honest,
straightforward men.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
May the Lord make us that To be like Nathaniel, a man
in whom there is no guile.
Be like Nathaniel, a man inwhom there is no guile.
You know, no sense of doublestandards, no sense of
compromise, but just real andauthentic.
You know, and again, living tohonor the Lord.
So what a great life, and sograteful that there was actually
(48:30):
a mix here.
Lane had suggested that wecover Bonhoeffer.
You wanted to deal with theNazi stuff, and so we combined
it together, and what a greatepisode it is.
Thank you, lane.
What a blessing.
Thank you.
Ray, we appreciate it, ray.
Speaker 4 (48:44):
Come on, there's a one-liner after this.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
I know I'm going to withhold it out of love.
All right, friends.
There you have it.
There you have it.
Don't forget the Living WatersTV.
You got to sign up for it.
Living Waters Among the Heavenand Society Bible.
Alllivingwaterscom Podcast.
At livingwaterscom, with yourthoughts and your insights.
Oscar's pouring water.
Thank you for joining us,friends.
We'll see you here next time onthe Living Waters Podcast.
Speaker 4 (49:09):
Ray.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
Oh, sorry, ray is so good, I was left alone doing it,
okay, but do a good one thistime On the Living Waters
Podcast.
No, no, a good one On theLiving Waters Podcast.
There you go.
In Acts 5, peter and the apostles answered we must
obey God rather than men.
There comes a time where wehave to stand up for what we
believe to be true.
We have to stand upon whatwe've learned.
Maybe we're all familiar withit, but the White Rose
Resistance Group, seth Gruber,had started a ministry, if you
(00:21):
would, that kind of goes in thatrealm of standing up for the
pre-born, having a voice forthem.
But, sophie Skoll, she's theone who the ministry is based on
.
She said stand up for what youbelieve in, even if you're
standing alone.
That we must come to our ownconclusion and stand with it.
Right.
Just because I might have adifferent conviction than you
have, I would now be in sin if Iwere to do anything else,
(00:44):
because whatever's not a faithis sin.
And now there's a greater issuein the midst of it right.
So just because you can or Ican't stand on the laurels of
somebody else's convictiondoesn't mean that one is right
or necessarily wrong.
Name that show Na na na na na nana na na na na na na na na na
(01:07):
na na na na na na na na na na nana na na na na na, na, na, na,
na, na, na, na na na, na, na, na, na, na, na na na na na na na
na na na, na, na, na na na na nana na, na, na, na, na, na, na
na na na na na na, na, na, na,na, na na na na na na, na, na,
na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na,na, na, na na na na na na na, na
, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na na na na na.
In the actual show.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Mission Impossible.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
You don't remember what's happening now.
What's happening?
Speaker 4 (01:27):
What's happening.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Then they came up with a sequel.
What's Happening Now?
Remember Faintly Rerun?
Oh yeah, the big guy and Raj.
Yeah, what he's like, yeah,remember, everyone remembers
that.
How do you guys not know what'shappening?
I have a life.
Know what's happening, I have alife, oh, get with it.
That's another one, okay, letme see Let me see Wait for it,
(01:52):
it's the same one.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
It's the same one.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Come on.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Created some American .
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Hero no Golden.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Spins.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Just a good old boy, dukes of Hazzard, yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Oh, that one didn't sound like Dukes of Hazzard.
I used to watch that Startedgetting through my car window
when I got.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
No, that can be it, mark.
From Mark, what Happy Days.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Laverne and Shirley.
Oh yeah, happy Days was happydays one o'clock no, no two
o'clock.
That's like a song.
Sunday, monday, happy daystuesday okay, but when?
You guys hear those songs,doesn't it just bring up
nostalgia yeah, makes you feelsick, not when you do it.
I like the um, nausea, um, whatwas what?
What were some of your go-tolike sitcoms growing up?
(02:40):
You were probably, you were, uh, probably saved by the bell
kind of guy different strokes uh, I love.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Lucy was like one of my favorite girls actually I
love, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
amazing how old that is, but it's still like my kids.
Yeah, kylie loves it like thequeen of comedy.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Man, she's so amazing yeah, yeah, kirk was invited to
meet her, but he didn't want togo and see her because he
didn't know who she was.
No, that's right, yeah, younever heard that story.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
His mom comes to his trailer and there was a big
event going on and she's likeKirk Lucille Ball's outside.
She wants to talk to you and hegoes tell her I'm busy.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
She wants to meet you .
Speaker 2 (03:14):
That's wild.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Tell her I'm busy him .
And there's.
You are going to see lucille.
I was having dinner at kirk'splace and there's a picture on
the wall and there was a picturein a drawer.
I was going through this drawerwith permission not through the
medicine picture of kirkstanding there with uh, ronald
reagan, lucille ball.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
And yeah, that was the event.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Yeah, yeah, reagan was there yeah yeah, I don't
know who kirk cameron is butlucille ball.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah, that's crazy, boy k Kirk had the world by its
tail, didn't he?
Yeah, I mean he was, he wouldhave probably been, wouldn't you
say, mark, maybe top three likeof that time teenage
heartthrobs, definitely.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
In fact I had asked him, you know, I mean, how
popular were you?
And he said well, listen, I'venever met Britney Spears, but I
could probably get together andhave lunch with her next week.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
I actually made a point.
I went to a Christian retreathigh school students it was
amazing Rose Hill ChristianChurch in Texas.
Shout out to those guys, man.
All those kids were amazing.
But anyways, I made a pointthat I I said show of hands, who
remembers the name of theirgreat great grandfather?
(04:31):
And out of 150, 200 students,like two raised their hands.
And then I said, okay, show ofhands, who knows who?
Kirk cameron is?
Zero hands raise their hands.
And I made the point kirkcameron was like the Justin
Bieber of like the 1940s orwhatever it was, 40s Exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I'm joking.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
I said.
But here's the point is like,no matter how hard you work, no
matter how famous you think youcould become, you could be the
next Justin Bieber and in 30years no one will remember you.
Your great great grandchildrenprobably won't remember your
first name.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
However, Judas wrecked that.
Judas wrecked that.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
However, instead of I made the point instead of
trying to build up our own humankingdom, we can raise up the
fame in the name of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
Right, that's a good point.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I was trying to think who my great-great-grandpa
would be and I thought my dadwas 113.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
It was him, george.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Washington.
That's crazy.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
Yeah, it was John Wayne.
He's in Airport, isn't he inCalifornia?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Oh, yeah, that's right.
Yeah, it is crazy when youthink about that and the things
we don't remember.
It's hard to think about thethings you don't remember, the
reason I said that is that therewas something I was going to
say and I don't remember what itwas, do you?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
ever think about the things you don't remember.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, all right, it's time for a cool, classy comment
.
This is from Fraser Nelson.
Nice and simple, nice andsimple, nice and simple.
Fraser from Australia Great job.
I've begun my journey to Christthanks to you guys.
Keep up the great work.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
God bless, fraser, let's go.
That's so Australian, by theway.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Oh, my goodness, what would be sweeter than an email
like that.
Thank you so much, fraser, andkeep going.
Keep pursuing the Savior.
And now a radicallyrevolutionary resource.
This podcast is brought to youby again, again, yes, yes, yes,
again.
Living Waters TV.
(06:36):
Ray, you like Living Waters TV?
Speaker 4 (06:38):
I like the sound of it.
It sounds fresh and nice whichit is.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
What is it?
What's on it?
I don't know.
It's all sorts of stuff.
Yeah, access to our LivingWaters Equip with answers to
questions from respected voicesEvery episode of the Way of the
Master.
Exclusive access to the nextseason.
I've been hearing peopletalking about man.
I've been watching the seasonsfrom the past.
Exclusive original and newdocumentaries.
Access to our unaltered YouTubelibrary without pesky
(07:04):
advertisements.
Pre-release access to watch theLiving Waters podcast.
That's a big incentive for youlisteners.
You get to actually see me.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Me, me, a week in advance, me, yeah, what's that
about A week in advance?
Yeah, so, for example, today'sepisode, if you're listening to
it the day it came out, it cameout a week ago on livingwaterstv
.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
So if you want to, watch us a week in advance.
Today's episode came out a weekago, I know right.
I'm just recording it now.
That's amazing, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, and you also get to see the National Bible
Bee Competition hosted by EmilZane.
Yeah, you get to see thoseepisodes.
That was fun.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
And behind the scenes , which is exclusive.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
That's right Race stuff, and it's available on
Roku, apple TV, fire TV, androidapps and iOS apps, so make sure
to check it out Along with theLiving Waters mug.
Why are you smiling, mark?
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Because I remember you asking can I watch it on my?
Speaker 3 (07:59):
For those who don't know.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Easy is technologically challenged.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
What's technology mean?
I don't know easy istechnologically challenged.
What's technology mean?
I don't know that was funny.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Anyway, friends, don't forget Living Waters and
the Everett Study Bible.
Living Waters, Living Waters.
Yeah, and today we have aspecial guest in our studio.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Her name is Elaine let's go Executive assistant
here at Living.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Waters.
Big blessing to us and a bigfan of Diedrich Bonhoeffer,
thanks for joining us, lane.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
She asked Lane.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
She did.
What a blessing.
Yeah, what a blessing.
All right, friends, as youheard, today we're talking about
Diedrich Bonhoeffer, which Markspelled wrong earlier on a
slate to died rich Bonhoeffer,and the dilemmas Christians face
in time.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
Time Switch.
The I and the E Didn't you havean electrician at your church.
What was?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
his name oh get rich, oh rich, Not get rich.
Oh yeah, Me too what?
Speaker 4 (08:59):
was his name.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
His name was Rich Quick.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Rich Quick, rich Quick, yes, and you'd say, hey,
get Rich Quick, I got a problem.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
That's what his wife said.
She got Rich Quick, yeah.
So anyway, guys, diedrichBonhoeffer, you know, as soon as
I hear that name, immediately,you know, you hear names and
they conjure things up.
I just think courage, I thinkbravery, I think love for Christ
.
But as I've been exploring himeven more, getting ready for the
podcast, I didn't even scratchthe surface on the depth of this
(09:32):
man and the massive impact thathe's had.
Our good friend that Rayactually went on his program.
Our friend Eric Metaxas he's mytax man, he does, metaxas.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
I wonder if he's ever heard that before.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
I know People try to do that on me.
Take it easy Like I've neverheard it.
Anyway, diedrich Bonhoeffer wasreally covered well by Eric
Metaxas.
I mean, it's become probablyone of the most popular books on
him within Christianity, Iwould say, and I think he did a
(10:12):
good treatment.
I was able to glean a littlebit from him on some of the
things that I discovered abouthim.
But, bonhoeffer if anyone wantsto give us some insight on him,
to kick us off rather than mecontinuing to talk and talk and
talk Oscar.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Mark Dietrich Bonhoeffer is.
Yeah, I've read a few of hisbooks or what have been
accompanied to be consideredbooks.
So the Cost of Discipleship isone of them.
I have not read that one, but Idid read Life Together, which
is incredible, and I also readLetters and Papers from Prison,
which is incredible.
And I also read letters andpapers from prison, which is
(10:47):
really good.
I finished Eric Metaxas' bookyears ago, which got me
interested in DietrichBonhoeffer, and then I read I'm
going to butcher this name, butthe official biographer there's
a ton of biographies onBonhoeffer.
The official one is byFerdinand Schleichenstein.
I'm not even close.
But you know there is adifference between reading like
(11:09):
when a Christian or a pastorwrites a book about like a
historic figure.
It's actually I learned thisnew phrase it's called a
hagiography, which is like this.
It's like a biography feed thatidealizes a person.
When you read a historian'sversion of a person or event,
you get like a really complexfigure.
(11:32):
And that would be my takeawayfrom Ferdinand's book is that
Dietrich Bonhoeffer is a complexfigure.
He had a deep devotion for theLord.
He struggled with anger issues.
He was a conflicted man.
He was a deep devotion for theLord.
He struggled with anger issues.
He was a conflicted man.
He was a man who was engaged toa woman and never even got to
spend a day with her outside ofprison.
(11:53):
Essentially, they never gotmarried Half his age, by the way
.
Yeah, yeah, again, a man ofconflict Like.
He was a member of theAbyssinian Baptist Church in
Harlem, which was an all-blackcongregation.
Imagine a German theologiangoing to worship at an all-black
congregation.
I love that.
So he was a complex figure.
(12:14):
That wasn't perfect by anymeans.
And then he was complex in thefact that he talked about being
a pacifist, yet he was involvedin a plot to assassinate Hitler.
So he's a fascinating figurethat I can't get enough of as
well.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah, so Bonhoeffer.
For those of you that do notknow, as Oscar alluded to, he
was a German pastor, theologian,and a key figure in resisting
the Nazi regime.
This is during World War II.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
And he was hanged.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah, that's right, 1906 to 1945 was his lifespan
and I think that the devotionand dedication that he had for
Christ is what I think haselevated him to being so
intriguing.
Because of what you said, oscar, there seems to be a conflict.
Right, I mean, he's trying toknock out Hitler, but he's a
(13:04):
theologian and a pastor and I'mexcited to talk about, kind of
his spiritual roots, especiallywhat happened in New York when
he came out here.
But, ray, you were especiallyexcited to talk about this
episode.
Hey, we're going to talk aboutBonhoeffer.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
No, I wasn't doing any study on Bonhoeffer.
I didn't do a minute on him.
What I did was how would wereply to Nazis who came to the
door and said are there Jews inthis home?
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, because that's what we're going to be talking
about as well.
The dilemma of what do you doright?
And this is a question that alot of Christians are faced with
in terms of a dilemma broughtup what do you do?
Do you lie?
Is it a lie?
Is it not a lie?
Do you hide them, do you not?
Was Corrie Ten Boom an evil,wicked, nasty woman, or did she
do what was right and righteous?
Speaker 4 (13:44):
So yeah, I've been thinking about this for about 40
years and I still haven't cometo a conclusion.
Seriously about what no aboutthe whole thing?
Do you lie to the Nazis come?
To the door.
Your wife is a Jew, isn't she?
Is she hiding in this house?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yeah, I'm so excited we're we can talk about it.
What are you talking about?
Yes, we do and we could talkabout it, so I tried to hold it,
but we talk about it in loveand in a civil way, and always
be suspicious if those that areclose always agree on everything
(14:29):
.
You should really be suspicious.
So it's good to have somediffering views on secondary,
tertiary issues.
So we may end up there todayWe'll see.
I don't know, but I'm excitedwe're going to talk about this.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
We better come to a conclusion, otherwise you're
going to get a call from me,easy.
There's a couple of Nazis in myfront door and they're asking
me if I'm.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Jewish.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
What do I say?
I haven't worked it out yet.
What do I?
Speaker 1 (14:50):
say I know I have an opinion on that.
I'd love to answer that.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, Mark, I'm excited to hear you.
I think I've heard you sharesome of that before it's worth
sharing again, but yeah, soagain a little more on
Bonhoeffer and kind of what hedid.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
What does the name Bonhoeffer mean in English?
I've tried to find it and Ican't find it Bon with offer.
That's exactly what I came tothe same conclusion.
Seriously what does it mean?
I have no idea.
I can look it up.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
You won't find anything.
It might mean nothing.
Everything says.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
German theologian.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
It doesn't say the meaning of the word, no matter
how specific you are Lane.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
do you know what Bonhoeffer means?
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Oh, even the legendary Lane doesn't know Side
note which oftentimes whenpeople write about history we
over-dramatize it, but actuallyhis death is not over-dramatized
.
Did you know that they killedhim 11 days before that area of
Germany was?
Free, he was 11 days away fromfreedom.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Yeah, isn't that wild .
I mean, one biographer saidthat he could hear the gunshots
of the Americans coming, butHitler being as petty as he was
because, again, he was in prisonfor a long time.
But he said kill everyone thatcame against him.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
They did the same thing with concentration camps
Slaughter them before theAmericans could.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, the same thing with concentration camps,
slaughter them before theAmericans could.
Yeah, so Bonhoeffer came from avery sort of sophisticated type
family.
They were all like kind ofprodigies in his family.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Like us.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah, like me, his dad was a scientist.
I think he was one of the mostforemost in Germany.
One of his brothers worked onstuff with Einstein, all of them
were just really smart.
He had a twin sister.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Identical Deidre.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I'm sure people ask that.
I have a twin sister Identical,yeah, and so you know.
She actually married a man ofJewish descent.
He was a believer but he wasfrom a Jewish heritage and so,
bonhoeffer, his dad was agnostic, his mom seemed to be a devout
Christian.
He had a couple of governessesthat raised them.
(16:54):
They were believers and itinfluenced him.
So he had a hunger for the Lordfrom a young age, comes to the
US at 24 and goes to a blackchurch in New York and was just
mesmerized and this wasinteresting.
He said no one in New York waspreaching the gospel.
This was one of the first fewchurches he found that was
actually preaching the gospel.
There was a lot of liberalismgoing on back there, and so that
(17:18):
stirs him up.
He tries to get records of whatdo they call them spirituals,
black spirituals or whateverthey called them and takes them
back to Germany and, just youknow, starts getting.
And then he starts feeling aburden for what was going on
with Hitler.
He was unwilling to become apart of the Reich church.
I mean, the Lutheran churchthere had really become Hitler's
(17:40):
church in a sense.
He was trying to remake it,reshift it, and leaders in the
church, even though they weren'tsympathetic to Hitler, they
were like, oh, you're being alittle too overzealous about
this.
But he saw it, he was a stepahead.
He saw where this was going andhis heart was the church needs
to stand up.
And so he ends up, you know,being in a place where they
(18:01):
wanted to draft him.
He thought there's no way Icould be a part of Hitler's you
know agenda.
So he comes to the US thinking,okay, I'll go there, I'll teach
.
He was only here, I think, 26days and gets burdened by God to
go back and be a part of it.
So he goes back and thenbecomes a part of the government
that, a part of the governmentthat was opposed to the Gestapo,
(18:22):
which they were kind of like,at odds with each other.
They were pro-Hitler, and theseguys realized we need to take
this guy out so he comes underthem under the guise of making
connections with other Christianleaders in other countries.
But the whole point was to getthe word out.
There's a resistance going onin Germany.
Sadly Churchill wouldn't givehim an audience, he wouldn't
hear him out, but that's whathappened and then ends up, you
(18:43):
know, becoming a part of that,gets found out being a part of
the plotting of hitler'sassassination.
Obviously that was foiled, butthen gets locked up and then, as
you shared, he ends up dying inthe car.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
Was that the famous one where the bomb was put under
the table with this plot of?
Speaker 2 (18:56):
plot I believe that.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
I believe that was, wasn't it?
I thought it was a differentone he's talking about there was
dozens of plots.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
Valkyrie oh yeah, I think that was a different one.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah, so anyway.
So that's kind of a story.
But you think of that dilemma,right?
Some say he was a pacifist.
I heard Metaxas say he reallywasn't actually, but that he
just, you know, kind of wasopposed to Hitler's agenda.
It's not that he was against, Imean, obviously he was going to
kill Hitler.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Well, that's the thing, that's a moment of
conflict, is that a lot of, Ithink, biographers and
historians would say?
If you read his writings, he heappears to be a pacifist and he
was in a moment of conflict andultimately sided with, because
Augustine is like, if you readAugustine, he was mostly a
pacifist as well, and he's theone that came up with the
(19:45):
theology of just war.
And so some would argue thatBonhoeffer fits in that same
category, that he was a pacifistup until necessity, which is
what pacifism, from anAugustinian perspective, would
be.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Yeah, is that what Bonhoeffer said?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Bonhoeffer, he's a great example of what it means
to boldly stand for Christ inthe midst of tyranny.
A couple of scriptures come tomind.
In Luke 9, he said to all Ifanyone would come after me, let
him deny himself and take up hiscross daily and follow me.
And then Matthew 10, 28.
Do not fear those who can killthe body but cannot kill the
(20:23):
soul.
Rather fear him who can destroyboth soul and body in hell.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, he saidwhen Christ calls a man, he bids
him to come and die.
That is the calling.
This is unlike any otherworldview that is out there,
right, Because every otherworldview, if you think about it
, it's what they can offer youand how you can have something
better, Even within Islam, right, you can have X amount of
(20:45):
virgins that are waiting for youat your death.
It's just the men, not women.
It's just the men.
Yeah, yes, I lost my train ofthought right now.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Thank, you, ray Comfort.
It's really nice Lady.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
you die for the cause of Islam and there's 70 men
waiting for you.
Distraction brought to you byRain Comfort Squirrel.
Yeah, oh man.
I love that quote, mark, that'sa good one.
I want to connect with thatquote, like in the very depths
of my heart.
One of the things that was saidabout Bonhoeffer is how he died
with such peace.
Like you know, he was somesmerized by the reality of
(21:22):
eternity.
He was so mesmerized by thereality of eternity, by the fact
that our lives are.
Christ is worthy of us layingour lives down for Him.
And so I think sometimes it'sbeen said by someone that
Bonhoeffer would rebuke us forlamenting his death.
He would say no, no it was a joyto lay my life down for the
sake of Christ.
Speaker 4 (21:43):
Yes, I love that, but I want to.
He was living in prison.
He didn't have a big screen TVand a good dog.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Hey, it's major boat.
I wonder how you do in thatscenario, Ray.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Oh, no good, Please help.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
But I want to connect with that in my heart and my
life.
That Christ bids us to come,die Right For me to live as
Christ, to die is gain.
That the crucified life is partand parcel with the disciples'
life.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Even against his own people.
I think that's one of thethings that stood out to me most
.
Before we hit record, mark andI were talking, two-thirds of
the German Christians supportedHitler, and that might be a
shocker to some people, but youhave to remember, in 1933,
hitler wasn't the Adolf Hitlerwe now know that he was.
In 1933, he was a bumblingpolitician that was preaching
(22:36):
nationalism, promising torestore Germany to their former
glory by removing the minoritiesout of their country, and there
was a lot of the church.
I mean, germany was separatedfrom the theologians of
(22:57):
resistance to the Christianpastors and preachers that were
supporting this idea, and so, atthe very beginning, most
Christians welcome Hitler.
Hitler didn't intimidate thechurch.
He seduced the church throughpromises, and Dietrich
Bonhoeffer was in a minority.
He was ostracized from his ownpeople because he didn't fall
(23:18):
into tribalism.
Alongside of them, he spokeagainst the guy that was
promising these GermanChristians everything they
wanted.
You know, he like he was kindof one, even though these aren't
his words directly.
He was kind of the one thatpreached you can be a
nationalist and you can be aChristian, but you can't be both
.
And so it's again like that'swhat I love about him.
What I love about him is he waslike man.
(23:40):
Actually one of the.
Ferdinand Schleichenbeinsbergersaid this.
He said there were never toomany that agreed with him.
Think about that Like toDietrich Bonhoeffer to pick up
your cross and to follow him wasto follow him even outside of
your own tribe.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
It's also important to remember that Hitler was a
believer in God and often quotedscripture, and you can read all
about the details in a bookcalled Hitler, god and the Bible
, written by Ray Comfort.
Ray Comfort, it's veryinteresting.
Yeah, you know, and actually180 was supposed to be about
Hitler's religion.
Remember that.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Yeah, I do it had so much interest.
Yeah, oscar man, to be a voicethat is true to God, to
recognize we stand before anaudience of one.
You know you think of whatJesus said woe to you if all men
speak well of you.
You know you think ofAthanasius, who was a defender
of the triune God.
(24:37):
You know I mean.
When they told him, athanasius,the world is against you.
He said no, it's Athanasius,the world is against you.
He said no, it's Athanasiusagainst the world.
I love that heart and thatmindset of look, truth is truth.
I'm not licking my finger andputting it up to see where the
wind is blowing.
I'm not looking to see whatpopular guys are agreeing or
disagreeing.
I have a heart that says Lord,all that matters is what you say
(25:02):
and I'm willing to die on thathill.
You know we share that quote.
Oftentimes it's not a hill todie on.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
Calvary is the hill to die on.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Amen.
It's got to be based on thegospel, it's got to be based on
the crucial things that we can'thelp but die for and, at the
end of the day, that's really atrue Christian.
It's one that's saying look,consequences are irrelevant,
they're irrelevant.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
So that means this commitment of mine to the Lord
is non-negotiable.
I never thought I'd ever hearyou say that Consequences are
irrelevant, Because anytime I dosomething you say consequences,
he's going to quote you now.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
You've traumatized me .
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Ray, with your lack of care for consequences.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
But this is the one area where we say come what may,
Torture me, torment me, kill me.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
Tickle me, Of course I don't want to.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Oh no, of course.
We're not gluttons forpunishment.
We're not looking and sayingcome on and do this.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
It's a badge of honor .
Speaker 2 (26:00):
No, but if it happens , it happens.
I'm going to be true to theLord, Mark.
We need more of that today.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
We do John Knox.
He said a man with God willalways be in the majority and if
you realize that God is for you, it doesn't matter who is
against you.
And this is why DietrichBonhoeffer was really the first
person and I'm sure there'sother stories out there, I just
throw it out there because it'swhat I'm familiar with the first
one to really come up with theessential church, right, we see
(26:32):
that grace to you created theessential church after COVID,
where we have the churchstanding up to a tyrannical
government.
Well, this is what DiedrichBonhoeffer did.
He stood up to a tyrannicalgovernment because he had great
quote silence in the face ofevil is itself evil.
God will not hold us guiltless.
Not to speak is to speak andnot to act is to act Right.
So love cannot keep silent.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
That'd be a good song , love can't stay silent, and
audacity, and audacity, audacitythat was really a good song.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
It was yeah, anyway.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
No, whenever you guys come up with your squirrels, it
totally loses my train ofthought.
But it is so good you weretalking about hot dogs, winters
and souls Hot dogs.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Anyway, it was really good, mark, thank you.
Thank you, mark, appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Mark.
This is a good quote byBonhoeffer.
He said Cheap grace is thegrace we bestow on ourselves.
Cheap grace is the preaching offorgiveness without requiring
repentance, baptism withoutchurch discipline, communion
without confession.
Cheap grace is grace withoutdiscipleship, grace without the
cross, grace without JesusChrist living and incarnate.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
Cheap grace is not amazing grace Ooh nice.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
That's a quote by Ray Comptonick I just came to mind
right now um, isn't thatpowerful though, you guys.
I mean, I think it's a glimpseinto the man's soul.
You know he was black and white.
Like it's not.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
There's no compromise , there's no gray area here he
was white in a black church innew york.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Oh, that's right that's right, uh, but yeah, I, I
love that, uh, but, but yeah,so let's.
But yeah, I knew you guys weregoing to point out, but yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
I didn't, but you thought it.
No, yeah, I thought it, but Ididn't I thought it.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Dude next mug.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
But yeah, but yeah I haven't thought about it, yet
but yeah, but yeah, okay.
So let's get down to the nittygritty.
Let's talk about our thoughtson how do we handle that If that
happens today and we findourselves in positions because,
look, bonhoeffer was obviouslyin scenarios, he was a spy, so
(28:34):
obviously he was, at the veryleast, misleading right, giving
a false impression of who he wasand what he was doing.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
You mean living a lie .
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Well, if you want to call it that.
I would beg to differ on that,but that's how it would appear.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
I wouldn't call it that.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Merci beaucoup.
So why do I insert French?
What purpose does that serve?
Speaker 4 (28:57):
You don't want to amuse yourself, it should have
been German to stay in line.
And we apologize to Germanlisteners.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
So, ray, you were eager to talk about this.
You've researched this?
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Yeah, I've never haven't come to a conclusion.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
You still don't have a conclusion.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
What's that?
No, I haven't come to aconclusion all these years.
What do I say if Nazis come tothe door and say your wife's
Jewish, is she in this house?
Oh yeah, she's hiding up underthe bed upstairs.
Do I tell them the truth?
Do I go dumb?
Do I act insane?
Which what you guys could doeasily.
I mean just start dribblinglike David did in the Old
Testament?
How do you answer it?
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Do you?
Speaker 4 (29:31):
say no, do I say yes?
You know you get to heaven.
And Gabriel said well, it'sjust common sense, you don't
want to be complicit with theNazis to murder your wife.
So what'd you tell him thetruth for?
You know, do you look to the?
The uh, the woman, that, that,uh, what are?
They gave birth to the moses,what they called uh midwives
midwives yeah, the came back tomoses.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
What?
Speaker 2 (29:51):
are they called?
Speaker 4 (29:54):
midwives.
They, they lied, they weren'ttruthful, and is that a
precedent for us?
So yeah, what do you say whenthe nazis come to your door?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
okay, good questions.
Mark is champing.
It's actually champing at thebit, not chomping, but we say
chomping, so we'll say Marcuschomping at the bit.
Well, no.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Listen, I think that if we had a lofty view of God's
sovereignty, that we don't haveto play by their rules, that's
the thing right, because they'recoming to you with a yes or no,
it's the same thing with do youstill beat your wife?
No, right Stopped.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
Why'd you stop?
I stopped, I just got sick ofit oh no.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
This is going to be taken out of context.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
I was like a joke, have you or have you not?
Though it's a yes or no,question it.
They don't get to call theshots even though they're
holding the gun.
So you mean you change thesubject?
Well, you can, in one degree,right.
Having a lofty view of Godmeans that God is in control,
and I would lean more towardsnot lying, but not playing by
(31:02):
their rules.
What does that look like?
Right, we have the story, right,of having our friends that
started, really, an orphanagethere in northern Uganda, and we
had a friend of ours from ourministry that went out.
There was part of it and therewas a guy who came in with a gun
.
You remember the story, right?
He came in with a gun and hewas going to kill people and he
did kill some people and ourfriend Mike went up and he did
(31:23):
kill some people and our friendMike went up and he said don't
you fear God?
Do you not fear God?
With boldness, he came into thescenario and the situation and
he was not killed in the midstof it.
So how would I respond?
How can you respond?
So how did the guy answer?
Well, I don't think he spokeEnglish.
All right so what if you justresponded with a preaching and a
(31:46):
rebuking of the individual?
What if you just startedpreaching the law and the gospel
to the individual?
What if you called down fireupon the individual?
I'm not saying to do that, butI'm just simply saying a yes or
no question does not necessarilyrequire a yes or no answer.
You can rebuke them in the nameof Jesus.
Stand on the laurels that Godis for you, that the angel of
(32:09):
the Lord sings songs ofdeliverance around his people,
that God is your portion andyour inheritance and he's your
defender.
What if you just simply rebukedthat person in the name of
Jesus and just preached the lawand the gospel and trusted the
results to the Lord, not sayingyes not saying no.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
Great scenario Nazis come to your door.
Do you think you're a goodperson?
Speaker 2 (32:32):
I would just start singing to them.
What song would that be?
Speaker 1 (32:37):
I am Pippi Longstocking.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Okay, so I think she was German too.
They'd like that.
Mark, I love what you're sayingand, more than that, I love the
heart behind it.
Because the heart behind it isI want to honor the Lord in all
things.
Christ is supreme.
My allegiance is to him.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Let me give you my I can hear my wife calling out
from under the bed upstairsdon't do that, honey.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Lie, please lie.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
I'm not here, Lie please
Speaker 1 (33:08):
honey.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Okay, because I've wrestled with this throughout my
Christian walk and I waver,because I do lean one way.
But then I hear you say thisand you've talked about this
before, and I'm influenced and Iwant to be persuaded toward
truth.
Here's my statement on this.
I would say under nocircumstance would I lie, under
(33:36):
no circumstance would I bedeceitful.
This is my question Me givingmisleading information to Nazis
that are about to murder people,would god count that?
Would he accredit that to me asa lie?
Would he accredit that to me asas wicked deception?
(33:56):
That's the question that I face.
And in the same way, I say like,obviously you shall not kill,
but we understand that life istaken, but we know that that is
the unjust taking of life, it'smurder.
So if I'm a government officialand someone committed murder and
I implement capital punishment,I judge them to do that, or I
even flip the switch on theelectric chair or whatever they
(34:19):
do these days, would that beaccredited to me as murder, in
keeping with that commandmentkilling, taking a life, whatever
and I lean toward no.
In other words, I believe thatlying is an intentional
deception for selfish reasons.
I don't believe that if a Nazicomes and says, yeah, we're here
(34:42):
to kill your wife, is she inthe house?
And I say, no, that God isgoing to accredit that to me as
lying, in accordance with thecommandment to not lie.
That that's the meaning of it.
That's where I kind of lean,because, mark, sometimes you
have scenarios so sometimes it'snot like as easy as just you
know telling them oh, or askingthem another question, because
it could be like, okay, thatmeans we know she's here.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
That's so good.
Yeah, so again.
And that may be where, becauseI don't think she can die unless
God says it's time for her todie.
Right?
All of her days were writtenbefore there was one of them,
right?
Speaker 2 (35:14):
But I still wrestle with how God works naturally
within the supernatural, and soI just look at that and I say
you know, there are practicalthings that have to happen.
It could be now.
A gun is to your child's head.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Why am I the child?
Speaker 4 (35:30):
Is that loaded.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
A gun's to your child's head.
Is your wife here or not?
And if you don't give us ananswer in three seconds, we're
pulling the trigger.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
You can't pull that trigger.
I don't think you can, I don'tthink you have the ability to
pull that trigger without Godgiving you that permission.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Yeah, so that I mean, that's what?
Sorry, oscar, I need to keepbreathing.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
No, sorry, sorry, I don't mean to be no, no, no,
it's good.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
But one more thing too.
And then sometimes you have,like you have covert issues,
like where someone needs to be aspy and they have to act like
someone they're not.
They have to use a differentname.
All that could be seen as lyingor deception.
And that's where I would stepback and say, even as I look at
the lives of the children ofIsrael and I'm not saying we
base doctrine on narrative, ofcourse, but do we see something
(36:16):
implied in there?
And my take as it stands now isI don't think that the Lord
accredits that to your account,and I think he works practically
in some ways of I'm not gonnadie until God wants me to and I
jump off a bridge.
Is that testing God?
So those are the things Iwrestle with.
Oscar breathe and speak.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Yeah, it's been a while since I've explored this,
but I did years ago.
I was really thought throughthis, and one of the things that
we have to wrestle with too,from your perspective, mark, is
Rahab lies in the very act ofher.
Lying is accredited to her asrighteousness.
(37:00):
In other words, god, thescriptures, doesn't say in spite
of Rahab's lie, god accreditedto her as righteousness.
Her act of lying was a sign ofher faith in God and therefore
it's accredited to her asrighteous.
And just one other examplewould be Joshua sending spies
(37:22):
into the promised land.
In other words, the OldTestament, god uses spies, whose
job is deception, to work outhis good, to bring people to the
promised land.
Now that points us back to thephrase bearing false witness,
and we have to ask ourselveswhat does that even mean?
What does it mean to bear falsewitness?
(37:43):
Our quick translation intoEnglish is don't lie, but is
that too broad of a category?
What do we mean by not lying?
Do we categorize Rahab'sstatement as a lie?
Do we categorize it as bearinga false witness?
And if you look at old Jewishtexts again, it's been a really
long time I didn't know.
This is the direction of theconversation we're going in
(38:03):
Proof, our podcast is unscripted, but if you look at the
original, if you look,remembering correctly, it is the
statement against the truth ofthe image of God.
So, in other words, for me togo around telling somebody that
(38:23):
you're something you're not, isme making a statement that mars,
who you are created by, in God,or another way of looking at it
.
And this is we're coming downto situational ethics here.
Another way of looking at it,and we're coming down to
situational ethics here.
Another way of looking at it isthat a lie is a sin because it
doesn't glorify the Lord.
(38:43):
But if me protecting a Jewishperson hiding in my basement, if
Rahab protecting the spies, ifthe spies acting in a deceptive
manner is done to bring aboutthe glory of God, you know it's
situational ethics Is it betterfor me to tell the truth, to
avoid the truth, or to protectan image bearer in God?
(39:07):
In that situation, in my mind,it's a no brainer.
In my mind, I'd have the fullconfidence, like Rahab did, to
say I got nothing for you, man,I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
There's nobody there.
Let it be known, though, thatshe was not commended for her
lie.
She was commended for her faith.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Right, which is acted out in her righteousness I'm
sorry acted out in her act oflying.
The lie is connected.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
The lie is I think there's a connection.
I agree with you that there's aconnection.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
Yeah, it's working out.
Your faith in works, her faithworked out in the work of
deception.
That's the thing that you haveto wrestle with.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Right and I agree with that.
I'm just saying that there'snever a commendation based upon
the lie that it was somethingelse which leads me to believe
that there perhaps is more tothe story in the midst of that.
I think that we shine a lightupon the lie instead of shining
a light upon the faith itself,whatever that means.
And remember that the Bibledoes not tell us everything we
(39:59):
want to know, but everything weneed to know, and Jesus is the
central figure of the story.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Absolutely.
And no good points, guys.
And Oscar, here's again what Iwould say, and it's natural for
us to use that language when yousay, you know, rahab lied, but
I would say that I wouldn't, Idon't know, that I would call
that a lie because, again, likeyou're saying, what is the
definition of a lie?
It's like, you know, if we see,you know, the children of
(40:31):
Israel wiping out the Canaanitesand we say they murdered them,
no, they didn't, that was justjudgment from God, so we
wouldn't define it as that, andso that's kind of, again, where
I'm at.
I think that.
But let me just say this is avery slippery slope.
I recognize that and we have tobe careful, because I think this
is only acceptable in very rare, rare circumstances, Because we
(40:52):
could say well, hey, I did thisto save that person from
getting in trouble, or I didthis so this went, or the pastor
was in adultery, but I didn'twant to hurt the congregation
Exactly.
That's good, ray, and that's why, Mark, I really sympathize with
your view and why I getpersuaded by it, Because it's
like I'm terrified of theslippery slope.
You know me like.
Consistency is a big thing forme.
You need to be consistent, soit's tough.
(41:14):
Ray, what do you think of allthis?
Speaker 4 (41:16):
I admire someone who can trust God.
When the door opens, nazis arethere and I totally trust the
Lord.
But what's that?
I didn't have faith that Marxgot and there wasn't a miracle.
The Nazis didn't get blinded.
And they just go upstairs grabmy wife.
She walks past, say sorry,honey, you're going to get raped
until you starve to death in aconcentration camp, but I didn't
want to transgress myconscience, sorry honey.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
So that's the dilemma I have.
Yeah, because, see, my thoughtis again, I would never say well
for this case.
Sorry God, I'm going to have tosin against you to do this.
That's contrary to everythingwe believe and say, but that's
what I'm saying.
I don't think that's what we'redoing in that instance.
So it's like, lord, I'm goingto have to rob this bank.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
I know you say don't steal, but I got to do it, but
the orphans need the moneyExactly right, good point, but I
think, yeah, let's go bankrobbing.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
He's going to be like his aunt.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
Yeah, my aunt robbed banks.
Only four, only four, that'sright.
So you know what I'm saying.
Like it's just not, it's not aquestion, no matter what happens
.
And that goes back to what Italked about earlier.
The non-negotiables rightConsequences are what they are.
But that that's where I'msaying.
I don't believe that it'snecessarily a sin and God would
(42:29):
credit that to us as lying.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
So no confession is necessary.
That's what I would, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
I think so.
In that case, I would say, no,that was a righteous thing.
That's not what God meant whenhe talked about lying, when
you're acting in the instance ofa spy or, you know, trying to
save people.
Speaker 4 (42:43):
I think we're talking about the spirit of the law and
I take consolation in the factthat Jesus said to the religious
hypocrites and legalists haveyou not read where David grabbed
the bread and ate it?
Ooh yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
That's actually good insight.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Finally.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Yeah, so I think this is again such a healthy
discussion.
We need to think through thisas believers, and I'm open, like
I'm totally open, to becorrected and you know what are
you looking at?
Speaker 4 (43:12):
A couple of soldiers at the door.
What Nazis Can you imagine?
What are you looking at?
A couple of soldiers at thedoor.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
What Nazis Can you imagine like?
In real time we're faced withthis.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
What a coincidence In Acts 5, peter and the apostles
answered we must obey God ratherthan men.
There comes a time where wehave to stand up for what we
believe to be true, amen.
We have to stand upon whatwe've learned.
Maybe we're all familiar withit, but the White Rose
Resistance Group, seth Gruber,had started a ministry, if you
(43:43):
would.
That kind of goes in that realmof standing up for the pre-born
, having a voice for them.
But Sophie Skoll, she's the onewho the ministry is based on.
She said stand up for what youbelieve in, even if you're
standing alone.
That we must come to our ownconclusion and stand with it.
Just because I might have adifferent conviction than you
have, I would now be in sin if Iwere to do anything else,
(44:06):
because whatever's not a faithis sin.
And now there's a greater issuein the midst of it.
So just because you can or Ican't stand on the laurels of
somebody else's convictiondoesn't mean that one is right
or necessarily wrong.
Now you guys have all jumpedthrough hoops to come to your
conclusions and I think, that'sreally interesting, you guys
really are.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
You have the right to be wrong, mark.
I love this quote by Bonhoeffer.
He said Silence in the face ofevil is itself evil.
God will not hold us guiltless.
Not to speak is to speak, notto act is to act.
I mean, again, this is whatfueled this guy.
It was like no, no, it's not.
Oh Lord, I'll pray and justhope you deal with this.
(44:47):
I see a massive problem.
I have a conviction that thisneeds to be fixed.
I can be a part of it and comewhat may, do you think he likes
cereal?
Bon Hoffa, bon Hoffa.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
Do you?
Speaker 1 (45:01):
think he likes cereal Ray.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Everyone likes cereal .
Are you cereal?
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Yeah, oscar, we really don't want to hear what
you have to say.
I want to hear it.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
Oscar, do you have any final thoughts?
Not on that, but I do think.
Actually I've got a quote it'sa little long by Dietrich
Bonhoeffer, but, on the note,one of the things that often he
doesn't get enough credit for ishow he stood up for the
oppressed and how he recognizedthe image-bearing quality in all
of us and how he pushed againstthe us versus them mentality
that was happening in Germanyand how he pushed against the us
(45:32):
versus them mentality that washappening in Germany.
And so I have somewhat of along quote, but it's beautiful.
Speaker 4 (45:36):
He says this.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
It's about 45 minutes long.
The way I read it, thereremains an experience of
incomparable value.
We have for once learned to seethe great events of the world
history from below, from theperspective of the outcasts, the
suspects, the maltreated, thepowerless, the oppressed, the
reviled, in short, from theperspective of those who suffer.
(46:01):
The important thing is neitherthat bitterness nor envy should
have gnawed at the heart duringthis time, that we should have
come to look with new eyes atmatters, great and small, sorrow
and joy, strength and weakness.
That our perception ofgenerosity, humanity, justice
and mercy should have becomeclearer, freer or less
(46:23):
corruptible.
We have to learn that personalsuffering is a more effective
key, a more rewarding principlefor exploring the world and
thought and action than personalgood fortune.
We have been silent witnesses ofevil deeds.
We have been drenched by manystorms.
(46:43):
We have learned the arts ofequivocation and pretense.
Experience has made ussuspicious of others and kept us
from being truthful and openothers and kept us from being
truthful and open.
Intolerable conflicts have wornus down and even made us
cynical.
Are we still of any use?
(47:03):
What we need is not geniuses orcynics or misanthropes or clever
tacticians, but plain, honest,straightforward men, will our
inward power of resistance bestrong enough, and our honesty
with ourselves remorselessenough for us to find our way
back to simplicity andstraightforwardness?
Whoever despises another humanbeing will never be able to make
(47:27):
anything of him.
Nothing of what we despise inanother is itself foreign to us.
We must learn to regard peopleless in light of what we despise
in another is itself foreign tous.
We must learn to regard peopleless in light of what they do or
admit to do, and more in lightof what they suffer.
The only fruitful relation tohuman beings, particularly to
(47:48):
the weak among them, is love,and that God did not hold human
beings into contempt but becamehuman for their sake, that's so
good man and I love what he saidStraight, honest,
straightforward men.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
May the Lord make us that To be like Nathaniel, a man
in whom there is no guile.
Be like Nathaniel, a man inwhom there is no guile.
You know, no sense of doublestandards, no sense of
compromise, but just real andauthentic.
You know, and again, living tohonor the Lord.
So what a great life, and sograteful that there was actually
(48:30):
a mix here.
Lane had suggested that wecover Bonhoeffer.
You wanted to deal with theNazi stuff, and so we combined
it together, and what a greatepisode it is.
Thank you, lane.
What a blessing.
Thank you.
Ray, we appreciate it, ray.
Speaker 4 (48:44):
Come on, there's a one-liner after this.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
I know I'm going to withhold it out of love.
All right, friends.
There you have it.
There you have it.
Don't forget the Living WatersTV.
You got to sign up for it.
Living Waters Among the Heavenand Society Bible.
Alllivingwaterscom Podcast.
At livingwaterscom, with yourthoughts and your insights.
Oscar's pouring water.
Thank you for joining us,friends.
We'll see you here next time onthe Living Waters Podcast.
Speaker 4 (49:09):
Ray.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
Oh, sorry, ray is so good, I was left alone doing it,
okay, but do a good one thistime On the Living Waters
Podcast.
No, no, a good one On theLiving Waters Podcast.
There you go.
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