Ep. 325 - How To Strengthen Your Marriage

Tony and Bre Wood, hosts of the Date Night with the Woods podcast, join E.Z., Mark, and Oscar to discuss their new book on marriage and family. The idea for the book came after a publisher, inspired by their podcast, suggested they put their insights into writing. Writing the book deepened their understanding of marriage’s sanctifying nature, allowing them to laugh at past challenges and reflect on how God uses marriage for holiness rather than just happiness.

The guys, along with Tony and Bre, talk about marriage as a tool for sanctification, fulfilling God’s call for companionship and mutual growth. They encourage couples to view marriage as a lifelong friendship, prioritizing the needs of their spouse and embracing selflessness over personal gain. Bre highlights the importance of discipleship for wives, urging women to seek guidance from older, godly mentors. Feminist ideals often conflict with biblical roles, creating competition instead of support within marriages. Bre and Tony share how scripture and discipleship transformed their own relationship.

Selfishness undermines marriage. Couples are encouraged to say something encouraging to their spouse daily, celebrate small victories, and build a framework for forgiveness. Intentionality is key—valuable relationships require work, prayer, and scripture. Tony shared a personal practice of writing thoughts about his day on his arm to share with Bre, illustrating the importance of thoughtfulness. They also stress the importance of conflict resolution, addressing issues like finances or resentment constructively and without delay.

For wives who feel their efforts won’t matter unless their husband changes, Bre advises looking to Christ’s example of love. Husbands should model sacrificial leadership, laying down their lives in small ways to reflect Christ’s love. Obedience to God is central. Repentance, confession, and grace can heal even deeply strained marriages, with the gospel at the center of reconciliation. Tony and Bre highlight how marriage impacts parenting and family life. A gospel-centered marriage provides a solid foundation for raising children. Bre shares how modeling forgiveness and scriptural authority has positively shaped their children’s understanding of family and faith. Apologizing to children when wrong demonstrates what it means to live with God at the center.

God’s grace will sustain through weaknesses, and the guys, along with Tony and Bre, encourage couples to lean on the gospel, community, and Christ’s transformative power in every aspect of marriage and family life.

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Visit the Living Waters website to learn more and to access helpful resources!
You can find helpful counseling resources at biblicalcounseling.com.
Check out The Evidence Study Bible and the Basic Training Course.

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Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
One of the reasons that we struggle is that people
don't understand biblical roles.
But the more we understand theroles that God has made us to
fulfill, the more joy that wehave.
I also think we talk to a lotof couples who they'll come in
for counseling in the premaritaland say, hey, we're gonna get
married, you know, and we'll sitthere and the first question
that we like to ask is well, whyare you getting married?
So you know, your son, we'lljust use Tanny, if you were to

(00:21):
sit down.
A lot of times, even in anevangelical world or a Christian
world, it'll be answers likewell, you know, we want to have
a family together, which is good, we'll point out you could.
There's lots of people whoaren't Christians and who even
don't get married, who havefamilies.
And you know, eventually wepoint out to them like all those
things can be done.
This is the old J Adams pointAll those things can be done

(00:43):
without being married, right?
So why are you actually doingthis?
And then you go into theeternal purpose, the glory of
God and the metaphor of thegospel.
But we always love to take themback to Genesis, chapter two,
and say, you know, hey, at theend of the day, it wasn't good,
god said, for man to be alone.
And so there's this helper,this Ezer Kanegdo, who's made
for him, and so it'scompanionship, what we like to
call this contract of lifetimeteammates, where you're saying

(01:07):
we're not going to do this alone, and so now we're going to walk
an aisle in covenant to oneanother, to our friends and
family, but also to the livingGod, that we're going to be
lifetime teammates, or what wecall best friendship.
We're going to build a bestfriendship and we're going to do
life together, and I thinkthat's the element that most
people miss.
I'm getting married for sex,I'm getting married to have a
family, but I don't understand.

(01:27):
I'm getting married because thetwo will be stronger than the
one, and what we start we'regoing to finish.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
The Reverend Dr Tony Wood.
He prefers his eminence, oryour highness, or his holiness.
Yeah, yeah, but he's in thehouse, excuse me, thankfully not
alone, but he brought alongwith him Bree Wood, aka
Sunflower Is that right.

(01:58):
We still flowing with Sunflower, yeah absolutely she's my.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
Sunflower.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
You made me because I mean, here you are calling your
wife Sunflower.
I had to create a name forRachel, so now it's Petunia,
until I discovered that that'swhat.

Speaker 3 (02:10):
Porky Pig's girlfriend's name was.
So I'm like, oh no, there's nowinning?

Speaker 2 (02:14):
I know there is no winning, Guys what?
A joy to have you with us hereand for our listeners who are
joining us today, you're in fora big treat.
You guys aren't just peoplebeing used by the Lord in
ministry, obviously, tony,you're a pastor Mission Bible
Church Costa Mesa.
But, man, you're friends and wehave been so blessed to just

(02:35):
gain your friendship.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
Well, we love you.
So what an honor to be herewith you guys today.
It's been a joy, and youminister to us so much, and so
to you and the entire LivingWaters team.
What an honor and privilege itis to be with you guys.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, man, it's been neat just to see how the Lord
has kind of developed ourfriendship and you've had us on
the podcast.
We've done a conference at yourchurch, we got Mark's son at
your church, tanny, and we justhired Aaron Alvarez.
Yeah, a lot ofcross-pollination.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
This is both a podcast and an excommunication
trip.
Yeah, a lot ofcross-pollination.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
This is both a podcast and an excommunication
trip.
They don't know it, but we'rebringing them in.
So it's such a blessing to haveyou guys here.
And today we're going to betalking about your new book
that's out and that people aregoing to get blessed by.
We're going to be talking about, obviously, how to strengthen
your marriage and family.

(03:23):
So we'll get into that, we'lltalk about the book, we'll plug
it.
All that good stuff.
But first something moreimportant, a news item Missing
woman mystery solved.
A group of tourists spent hoursSaturday night looking for a
missing woman near Iceland'sAlgja Canyon, only to find her
among the search party.
The group was traveling throughIceland on a tour bus and

(03:45):
stopped near a volcanic canyon.
Soon the word of a missingpassenger.
Soon there was word of amissing passenger.
The woman, who had changedclothes, didn't recognize the
description of herself andjoined in the search.
But the search was called offat about 3 am when it became
clear the missing woman was infact accounted for and searching
for herself.

Speaker 3 (04:07):
What you made that up .

Speaker 2 (04:08):
True story man.
I don't know the source, but Iknow it's true.

Speaker 3 (04:13):
It's because it was online.
It was on Facebook, it was onthe internet.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
It's got to be true.
So anyway, that meant nothing.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
Does that mean that she was in the search party the
whole time?
Exactly, not knowing that thesearch party was looking for her
, was searching for her.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
She was looking for herself, but not knowing that's
something Ray Comfort would do.

Speaker 4 (04:29):
That would so be something Ray Comfort would do
Was she like walking around witha photo of herself.
Have you seen?

Speaker 3 (04:34):
myself.
Have you seen With him?
She was holding the mirror, shewas holding a photo, she was
lady.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
Anyway, whatever, that was for nothing.
Time for a cool, classy comment.
This is from James Lyons.
Thank you for all you do.
I found the podcast through afriend, listened to a few
episodes and was notdisappointed.
I've listened ever since andhave grown deeply in my faith
thanks to you guys and the wayyou look at the world through
the lenses of the gospel, theway you guys have a rich

(05:02):
relationship with each other andthe Lord encourages me, as well
as proving the fact that thereare good Christian podcasts.
God bless and again, thanks forall you do.
Ps Keep on keeping the otherguys on topic, mark, and keep
singing easy.

Speaker 4 (05:16):
That's why he read it .

Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, I will keep singing.
Who was that?
That was James Lyons.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
James.
I want to second James.
I would agree Everyone I talkto and I would agree.
It is your love for one anotherand the banter that makes this
podcast so awesome.
Oh, thank you, man.
Not the singing though.
Thanks man.
Thank you, bro, you had meuntil that point, yeah and.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
I disagree there goes our friendship again.
All right.
And now a radicallyrevolutionary resource.
This podcast is brought to youby Little Red.
Book for Marriage and FamilyOoh, 12 Principles for
Relational Thriving.
That's the book, guys.
That's what we're promotingtoday.
We're not even promoting ourresources, because we love you.
Look, I've read the book andit's phenomenal.

(06:02):
I mean, I just have to behonest, it's phenomenal.
One of the favorites of Racheland me is reading through
marriage books together.
We've done that since we werenewly married and, man, this
thing is just power-packed.
It's not massive, which makesit, yeah, bite-sized.
It's practical and it's justfull of biblical truth.

Speaker 3 (06:25):
Yeah, there's an emphasis on just simple daily
actions.
So I'm at the place and stageand age of my life where I'm
looking for takeaways, practicaltakeaways.
This is why I love yourpreaching so much that you're
not just preaching from an ivorytower right, you're rolling up
your sleeves and you're saying,look, I've fallen on my face,

(06:51):
I've kind of gone before you.
I'm just kind of maybe I'm astep ahead of you in the failure
which you might experience.
But if you follow my lead, youdon't need to fail either.
But when you fail, if you fail,listen, this is how you get out
.
These are some practical dailyexercises that you can do to
move forward.
That's part of being old people.
That's part of being old youhit your head on so many door

(07:13):
jams.

Speaker 5 (07:13):
You're telling other people.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
Hey, duck behind me, right.
I mean that was kind of ourheart in the book in general is
just to say, hey, we have madeso many mistakes, but then we've
also had a lot of older peoplepour wisdom into us, biblical
wisdom, and so how can we justkind of simplify and share it
for other?

Speaker 2 (07:28):
people.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, amen.

Speaker 4 (07:30):
Yeah, I really appreciate how it felt like a
co-labor of love.
My wife and I read, similar toyou guys, a marriage book a year
and often, even if it'sco-written by a husband and wife
, it's not clear who's writingwhat, or a wife will only write
one chapter.
But this really did feel like aco-labor of love.
It felt like I was sitting downwith the two of you and hearing

(07:50):
you go back and forth aboutthese subjects, which I think is
very approachable for both thehusband and wife.
Who's going to be reading this?

Speaker 2 (07:57):
book together.
Yeah, I love the constantinterjection that kind of was
weaved throughout the book.
It was really good.

Speaker 3 (08:01):
I felt weaved throughout the book.
It was really good.
I feel like you guys weregiving marital counseling to
each other.
You guys continue workingthrough things.
Well, I've learned this.
Let's do this.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
Interjection and counseling.
So what that means is I wouldwrite something and then she
would tell me when I was wrong.
That's marital interjection.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
Exactly so yeah, friends, make sure to check it
out.
You can get it on Amazon, andagain, we're going to be talking
more about it, but where elsecan people get it Amazon?

Speaker 1 (08:23):
Amazon, 316 Publishing.
The publisher yeah, Pretty mucheverywhere.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
Bookstores.
Yeah, check it out.
And don't forget, friends, theLiving Water shorts.
We got to keep pushing this.
I know they're thinking LivingWater shorts and pants and hats,
shorts with Ray's picture on it.
No, the Living Water shorts,oscar, real.
Tell our people about it.

Speaker 4 (08:41):
Yeah, we would love to see you take our videos that
we post online and repost themand make them their own, and so
we've taught you how to do thatin a way that honors our work
but also gives you anopportunity to make God known,
so you can go to livingwaterscomforward slash shorts to learn
how to do that.

Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah, and these are.
You know you're taking videosof ours and creating short
videos from them, like you'retaking videos of ours and
creating short videos from them,like 60-second shorts.
That's why they're called that.
So, yeah, check it out.
Don't forget the Living Watersmug the Heaven to Study Bible.
Living Waters TV Come on,subscribe All at Living Waters.
Wow, is that Donald?
Duck, I don't know, Tony andBree at this point are like what

(09:20):
did we sign up for?

Speaker 4 (09:23):
Why are we Tony's?
Like my members listen to thisstuff.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, all right, friends, and now we're going to
jump into it.
Guys, the book.
Tell us what birthed the ideaand how did we get here.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
What birthed the idea ?
Actually, it was Gary Kim 316Publishing.
So Gary had come to us afterlistening to the podcast and he
had said, hey, maybe we couldtry to put that into book form.
And then at first we so back upthe podcast.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
So that actually started.
We had a buddy come to us whohad planted a church and he had
said hey, in the evangelicalworld a lot of us are learning
our Bibles and we know kind ofwhat it means to be in a
biblical marriage, but we don'tknow how it looks because we
grew up in broken homes.
So would you guys be willing todo a podcast?
And so we kind of laughed atfirst.

Speaker 5 (10:16):
We don't want my wife do you want to speak to this?

Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
I thought you were joking.
She thought I was joking.
Are you serious?
So this wasn't something you,because my wife and I have been
on the podcast.

Speaker 3 (10:27):
Mark, you've been on the podcast and what is the name
of the podcast?
Have you been on the podcast?

Speaker 1 (10:29):
I have not.
You need to be on the podcast.
Oh, you should be.
What is the name of the podcast?

Speaker 3 (10:33):
Date Night with the Woods.
Date Night with the Woods.
Yeah, yeah out.
We had a scheduling thing, yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
That's what it was.
Yeah, date night, marriage andfamily, date night with the
Woods, and so we started thepodcast and we had no clue what
we were doing.
In fact, you were one of theearly guests when you came into
that little closet room.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
That's right, bro.
We were sitting there.
I walked in there, I'm likejanitor's closet.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
Janitor figured it out along the way, and anyway,
Gary came and said hey, could weput that into?
Book form, and then we laughedagain and then we went and
prayed and it was I mean, youmentioned labor of love.
It's a fun process.
I think it like anything inmarriage, it becomes really,
really, really humbling andsanctifying when you're forced
to put pen to paper and starttalking about things, and so it
was a good process.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah, Did you guys because my book Fight Like a man
.
You had me on the podcasttalking about that.
I mean, I told you guys it waslike a traumatizing experience
in terms of all that wasinvolved in doing that.
Was it more of a fun processfor you guys or was it
challenging?

Speaker 5 (11:43):
What do you think?
He's the creative genius, andso I am thankful to be able to
go along for the ride right togenius.

Speaker 2 (11:51):
I'll pay you back later, I just I I enjoy getting
to be along for the ride yeahit's it's been fun well I, in
reading the whole book, I I gotthe fun vibe from it.
It seemed like it was writtenwith enjoyment.
It was infused with enjoymentin terms of content, but it also

(12:13):
had a feel like you guysenjoyed writing it.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
Traumatizing, I think , would be a strong word, but I
would say that I think marriagecan be tough, and so the fact
we're writing it now, 20 yearslater, makes it easier, because
we're looking back on those 20plus years and 20, 25 years that
we've known each other andwe're kind of working through
things, more tongue in cheek andwe are able to have humor that
we wouldn't have had in thosesituations, like some of the

(12:37):
stories you're telling.
They're funny now, when Ihairsprayed, your.

Speaker 4 (12:41):
They were not there.

Speaker 1 (12:42):
I was about to say I can't wait to relive the
hairspray story with you guys,but like you know, in the moment
that's sanctification andyou're learning holiness, and so
I think it was easier to writenow than it would have been five
, 10 years ago.

Speaker 3 (12:55):
Yeah, that's great, you know my son came to me and
he said that he attended agathering for a friend of his
that was about ready to getmarried.
And then there were some othermen that were there to give some
practical advice getting readyfor marriage.
And all of the guys saidbasically, buckle up, it is so
hard, it's the hardest thing,it's the roughest thing.

(13:16):
But nobody came along and saidthat it was a rewarding time,
that marriage is a beautiful,beautiful thing.
So I just think and I interjecthere right, really quick to
think so you guys have beenmarried how long now?

Speaker 5 (13:32):
20 years 20.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
He says 20 years, right With confidence 20.

Speaker 3 (13:35):
Yeah, I need you to look.
So 20 years, why should anybodyeven get married when it's so
rough?
My son had asked me thequestion.
People talk down on marriage somuch and nobody's lifting it up
, Nobody's sanctifying it to thestage.
What do you say to that person?
What do you say, my love?

Speaker 5 (13:51):
I say you know the beauty of being able to fulfill
what God has called us to aswives.
Martha Peace, she describes inher book the Excellent Wife
there's a triangle and on thetop is God, and then there's the
husband and the wife andthere's an arrow going down to

(14:12):
the husband and wife.
You know, both are made in theimage of God.
But our purpose I get to bringglory to my husband.
So there's an arrow going fromthe wife to the husband and then
an arrow going from the husbandto God.
And being able to see God hasallowed me the privilege of
being able to bring glory to myhusband and be his helpmate as

(14:33):
he brings glory to God.
And it's such yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
I think it's one of the reasons that we struggle is
that people don't understandbiblical roles.
But the more we understand theroles that God has made us to
fulfill, the more joy that wehave.
I also think we talk to a lotof couples who they'll come in
for counseling in the premaritaland say, hey, we're gonna get
married, you know, and we'll sitthere and the first question
that we like to ask is well, whyare you getting married?
So, you know, your son, we'lljust use Tanny, if you were to

(14:58):
sit down.
A lot of times, even in anevangelical world or a Christian
world, it'll be answers likewell, you know, we want to have
a family together, which is good, we'll point out you could.
There's lots of people whoaren't Christians and who even
don't get married, who havefamilies.
You know, a lot of times guyswho come from conservative Bible
colleges will say things likewell, I just want to, you know,
make love and not feel guilty,and which, okay, get it, leave

(15:21):
it there, pg.
And you know, eventually wepoint out to him like all those
things can be done.
This is the old J Adams point.
All those things can be donewithout being married, right?
So why are you actually doingthis?
And then you go into theeternal purpose, the glory of
God and the metaphor of thegospel.
But we always love to take himback to Genesis, chapter two,
and say you know, hey, at theend of the day it wasn't good,

(15:43):
god said, for man to be alone,and so there's this helper, this
Ezer Kanegdo, who's made forhim, and so it's companionship,
what we like to call thiscontract of lifetime teammates,
where you're saying we're notgoing to do this alone, and so
now we're going to walk an aislein covenant to one another, to
our friends and family, but alsoto the living God, that we're
going to be lifetime, lifetimeteammates, or what we call best
friendship.

(16:03):
We're gonna build a bestfriendship and we're gonna do
life together, and I thinkthat's the element that most
people miss.
I'm getting married for sex.
I'm getting married to have afamily, but I don't understand.
I'm getting married because thetwo will be stronger than the
one, and what we start we'regonna finish.

Speaker 4 (16:19):
I love that.
I think I would add as well thereality that marriage is this
great tool that God means tosanctify you, and so so often
for young men.
For myself, when I was lookingat trying to not be married, my

(16:40):
thoughts were my comfort, myprivilege, my rights, my freedom
, my time, and I lost a sense ofthe importance of my
sanctification, in other words,the question of what does God
mean to do in me throughmarriage, who is the person he
means to make me and how does hemean to use marriage in that
context?
Because when we startrecognizing our lives are
designed to become more likeJesus, then we see marriage as

(17:01):
this amazing, incredible tool ofsanctification and, as anybody
who's been married for anyperiod of time would tell you,
nothing sanctifies you likemarriage.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, I always think man, the holier-than-thou
brothers, they just need to finda wife.
And that changes quickly.
It shakes you in a way.
It's like the whole analogywith the bottle that looks like
it has nothing but water in it.
You shake it and it's suddenlymurky and muddy and dirty.
Well, the dirt was there thewhole time.
It's the shaking that revealedit.

(17:31):
And so you know, god loves usenough to bring a very special
divine shaker in our life,called the husband or wife,
that'll shake us in ways otherscan't and gets the dirt out of
those crevices where it's reallyhidden and deep.
And God does that to sanctifyus, to cause us to run to Him so

(17:52):
that he can sift out that filththat's inside of us.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
You put that in your book, that it's not happiness,
it's holiness.
And that was, I thought, agreat line.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, and it's easy to miss that.
And speaking of missing things,you know you touched on it a
little bit, but you gave a fewpoints in the book on like the
primary purpose for marriage andthat people miss it.
You talked about it, theircompanionship being one of them.
So what is thatall-encompassing?

Speaker 1 (18:18):
Well, you got physical, you got emotional and
mental and spiritual, and so Ithink you basically are coming
together to say we wanna do lifein all of those categories
together.
One of the things kind of tyingthat in with holiness that I
think you mentioned, which isoften forgotten, is that

(18:39):
marriage means I'm gonna beelevating the interest of the
other over myself.
Is that marriage means I'mgoing to be elevating the
interest of the other overmyself.
And I actually had somebody askme recently, you know they said
why is it that couples willwalk the aisle and this goes to
your point too, mark They'llwalk the aisle with this view of
marriage that it's going to bewonderful, and then within a few
months they stop pursuing eachother and the joy begins to fade
.
And I think it comes back to.
We enter marriage a lot of timeswith this idea that I'm going

(19:03):
to be the one and, oscar, youmentioned this part I'm going to
be getting a lot out of it.
Instead of going into marriagethinking I'm going to do
everything I can to please anduplift, by a choice of the will,
my spouse and I even thinkabout that with the pursuit part
I had a guy come to me justrecently and said hey, how come
we're not pursuing each other?
We've only been married a year.

(19:23):
So we were like getting walkingdown the aisle and we were hot
to trot man.
It was like you know, hey,she's looking good and I'm.
You know he's the best he'sever going to look.
He's been working out and he'stanned and bronzed up.
It's all downhill I mean she hadfive hours on her hair alone.
I mean and he said but we gotmarried, went on the honeymoon
and immediately it was like theintimacy just went boom, the

(19:44):
romance went boom.
He said what happened and so webegan to talk and quickly he
realized he had not been puttingher interest above his own.
So he goes into marriage.
All of us guys do it right andwe're thinking one thing.
We're thinking it's honeymoon,but we're forgetting that our
wife is an emotional creatureand she's desiring emotional
care.

(20:04):
She wants to know that she'sloved and that she's beautiful
in your eyes.
And so foreplay really startseven early on in the morning.
I mean the woman's heart, I'llkeep it PG.
But then, conversely, we satdown together and then she began
to point out that maybe shehadn't taken his desires and
needs into consideration andthat he's visual, and that she

(20:26):
went from wearing a lingerie andsuddenly, two weeks in, she's
wearing big pajamas.
And it's like she went to aconference and an older lady
told her hey, listen, maybe weshould change our outfit and put
on some really puffy pajamas.
And she admitted oh, mygoodness, I haven't been
thinking about him and what helikes and what he desires and
the responsiveness I can showhim.
And it was an interestingmoment that after only a year of

(20:49):
marriage, a couple was able toturn the corner and say, from
this point forward, I'm going tothink in my mind what do you
need, what do you enjoy, what isit that makes you tick as a
woman?
And then conversely for the man, and that really began to
change the way they viewed theirfriendship.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
Well, you know, it's the Philippians 2 dynamic.
Right, that's it.
Let nothing be done throughselfish ambition or conceit, but
in loneliness of mind, let eachesteem others better than
himself, let each view look outnot only for his own interests
but also for the interests ofothers.
And then he ties it in therewith the mind of Christ, who
became a servant right To redeemus, and so it reminds me.

Speaker 4 (21:32):
You know I've shared this before in the podcast.
I used to do a college group,lead college group, and we had a
couple hundred college studentsand often someone would come to
me and be like oh you know, I'min love with this girl, or
whatever.
And I go oh, what do you, youknow, tell me about it?
Oh, I love the way she makes mefeel.
I love the things that she doesfor me.
I love that she's in the samesports that I am into.
I love that she likes themovies I like and I used to go.

(21:54):
Man, it sounds like you loveyourself so often our pursuit of
other people where we think Ilove her why?
Because of all the things thatshe loves about you.
But true love is sacrificial.
It's putting, like you justmentioned, putting the other
person before you.
And unfortunately so manypeople go into marriage year one

(22:14):
with those presuppositions.
They think they're in love butreally they're just magnifying
their love for self.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, well, and I think a big problem is that when
people get married, each islooking to the other as a
receptacle to receive fromrather than a conduit to give
through, and that's so key.
I mean all of us.
We have these natural needsthat are legitimate, but the

(22:40):
problem is we're looking to aperson to be the source of
supply for those needs, ratherthan the Lord.
And when you do that,everything falls apart, because
no person is designed to be asource.
God is the source, so you go tohim for what you need and you
look to your spouse as a mediumthrough which you love God with
all your heart, mind, soul andstrength by being all he's
called you to be as a husband orwife, and loving your spouse

(23:02):
through sacrificial service, bymeeting their needs, considering
them more important thanyourself.
I think those are keenimportant.
And, bree, I think for thewoman that's listening now who
says but my husband, he's thisway and until he changes, I

(23:22):
can't change what I do, whatwould you say to her?

Speaker 5 (23:26):
I think I mean coming back to Philippians 2 is so
helpful and to be reminded ofChrist's example that he came as
a man and he gave everything upto be able to save us from our
sins.
And so, looking at Christ'sexample, first and foremost, and

(23:48):
realizing that you cannot doanything without his help, and
to try to not do it in your ownstrength, and to praise him I
mean that's a huge praise to beable to get to the point to
where you realize I cannot dothis on my own.
I need the Lord.
So I think, turning to his word, looking at Christ's example,

(24:11):
being on your knees in prayerand trusting that he will help
you, and I mean discipleship I'msuch a huge fan of discipleship
.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
Yeah, speak on that a little bit.

Speaker 5 (24:23):
Yeah, having an older , godly woman who you see their
life and they are followingChrist and you ask to follow
them as they follow Christ anddiscipleship is so helpful with
allowing you to see your ownblind spots and to be able to
see, oh, the situation that I amin right now isn't just my

(24:44):
husband's fault, it's mine too.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
And so sometimes we just can't see it, and so to
have someone else point it out,yeah, and you don't have to get
into that now, but in the book,I mean, you give an example of a
older, godly woman that spokeinto your life and it had a
massive impact Huge.
You know, it's the Titusdynamic of, you know, younger
women humbling themselves tolisten to older women and to

(25:07):
receive that input.

Speaker 4 (25:08):
For me that older godly woman is Mark.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
And it's Oscar's last day on the podcast.

Speaker 4 (25:16):
Chapter three.
I love it.
You say this, brie feminism isnot just a social, socio
political movement, it's also aposition of the heart which
screams me.
I love that you point that out,because I think that when we
think about feminism, we're likewell, I'm definitely not
influenced by feminism.
That's, you know the that, thelesbian pro choicer with the

(25:36):
shaved head standing on thestreet picketing you know
conservatism or whatever thecase.
So clearly I'm not a feminist.
Picketing, you knowconservatism or whatever the
case.
So clearly I'm not a feminist.
Yet, to your point, feministideas are in the air that we
breathe.
So how can wives identify thosesubtle influences in their
lives?
Maybe you can even give anexample.

Speaker 5 (25:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
Is it okay if I turn to?
the microphone Please do soGenesis 3.16, to be able to see
from the beginning to the woman,god said I will greatly
multiply your pain in childbirth.
In pain you shall bring forthchildren, yet your desire shall
be for your husband and he shallrule over you.
And to see that this problemisn't just modern day.

(26:20):
It has been from the verybeginning and the woman would
want to usurp, she would want tobe taking control of her
husband.
And so, seeing, you know, inregards to today's feminism,
it's more seeking equality butalso rejecting traditional rules
that God has set, and seeingthat it's countercultural to

(26:43):
today.
God's design is counterculturalbecause God's design is to
compliment our husbands, notcompete with them.
And it seems like so much oftoday is just wanting to compete
rather than compliment.
But a personal example can youhelp me understand that question
?

Speaker 1 (27:00):
just a little bit no no, I think that was great.
I actually can think of oneTwilight.
So we, brie, was radicallysaved in 2009 and we've been
married I think five years.
At that point I better get thatright.
And we 2009,.
I get a phone call come homeand it was an amazing
transformation in our marriage.
We've got a ton of storiesabout that time period in our
life.
But then you remember all theyoung people in college, 2010 or

(27:23):
so, we're going to that movie,twilight with the vampires and
all things.
So we're like, hey, we have twokids, we'll get babysitter
check it out.
And so we stand in line and itwas like you had come out of a
conservative evangelical churchwhere you knew, kind of the
concept of feminism was wrong,but we had no idea that in our
marriage we were upside down.
It's like in the old EmersonEdricks crazy cycle.

(27:43):
Remember that when the husbandis to be sacrificially leading
and guiding, the wife is to berespecting and supporting, and
that's the right cycle.
But because of feminism andbecause of the usurping, that's
natural, the tshuka that theenemy has waylaid upon marriage,
it gets upside down, whereyou're going the wrong way.
The man is passive and he'ssitting there watching ESPN and

(28:05):
then the wife becomes dominant,like all the sitcoms.
So we didn't have the inklingabout that until we walk into
Twilight.
We're about six months intoyour conversion and you walk out
of the movie and you were deadquiet and I said what's wrong?
That was a pretty interestingmovie.
It's got werewolves and sparklyvampires.
And then she goes.
I just saw something she said.

(28:26):
I just saw Genesis, the Genesisrecord.
I just saw a teenage girl usurpboth a werewolf and a vampire
and it was like this big,eye-opening moment Do?

Speaker 5 (28:37):
you want to talk about that?
When you saw literallyeverywhere we look, even teeny
bopper movies women aredominating men, yeah, and I mean
in a very accepted, uh way thatthe culture accepts it is, you
want to feel loved, you want tobe cherished and, uh, that was
an idol in my life.
And the lord allowed me my eyesto be open to just my

(29:01):
selfishness and my sin byactually reading a book called
the Love Dare.
Do you guys remember?

Speaker 4 (29:06):
that.

Speaker 5 (29:06):
Yes, it's like halfway through chapter 20, the
gospel message is presented andI just start bawling.
It's like six o'clock in themorning and I'm realizing wow,
because we were in a hard placein our marriage.
Things were thriving with youngadult ministry.
I was home with two littlekiddos.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
And I was selfish, a very selfish leader and of the
home, in fact, to the point.
She got on the phone and shecalled an older woman and she
said you know, we are notclicking.
What do I do?
And this is a great story.
I come home and she comeswalking out with a plate of hors
d'oeuvres and greets me at thedoor and I'm like what happened,
Part of the love dare I thinkit was and I'm like this is

(29:48):
weird.
And then she goes okay, dinnerwill be ready in five minutes,
and she takes my bag.
It was like leave it to Beaverright and the two kids are
parked in the high chairs.
They're sitting, they're allobedient and I come over to the
table and then I sit down.
She takes the napkin and shewafts it and puts it on my, and
then she walks over and sets itdown and she goes.
Dinner is served, my Lord.

Speaker 2 (30:08):
I said Rachel, are you listening?
Hey Rach shout out.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
So I'm like what happened.
And then she went on to explain.
I called this older woman fromthe church and she said 1 Peter
3, just do whatever Sarah did.

Speaker 5 (30:22):
And she said Lord so I'm calling you Lord.
I said we're not doing the Lordthing and now, 20 years later,
I'm like let's bring that back,baby.
Come on, let's bring it back.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yeah, but it was like , literally, she just started
taking the Bible, literally theauthority of Scripture, and that
transformed our marriage.
Because, as a man, brothers,you know, when your wife
showcases, I will follow, submitand respect the way the Lord
tells me to.
It pushes us to become thesacrificial leader that we need
to be.

Speaker 3 (30:46):
Amen.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
Oh that's so good and that's a story I was
referencing earlier.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
I'm glad you shared it.
But the influence and impact ofan older woman, yeah, and man
Mark, both of us were involvedin each other's weddings.
I just barely got to know youthen.
You attended mine, but I was inyours.
How long have you and Laurabeen married now?

Speaker 3 (31:11):
We got married August 21st 99, so 25.
So a quarter of a century.

Speaker 2 (31:17):
You add up all the time, all of us here have been
married.
That's just crazy when youthink about it.
But, mark, I just want to goback to that a little bit, just
the whole selfish element inmarriage, because it cripples,
it just cripples couples.

Speaker 3 (31:36):
And we don't know that it's happening right.
Because we begin to think, no, Ideserve this.
You don't know what I'm doing.
You're over here, I'm doingthese sort of things, and men
can fall into this trap realeasily.
I'm away at work, I'm workingeight to 10 hours a day,
sometimes seven days a week, andI'm sorry, what are you doing?
You're at home doing what?

(31:58):
Can I come home to a meal?
Why is the house a mess?
Why are the kids running amok?
And we begin to think that weare an island onto ourselves and
we want to build our kingdom.
But you guys actually talkabout a few very practical
things and you can address anyone of these.
I'm going to give you three.
Address any one of these threethat you'd like to Say something
encouraging to your spouseevery day, or create a

(32:22):
forgiveness framework and or,thirdly, celebrate small
victories together.
What do you think you go?

Speaker 1 (32:31):
first my love Ladies first.

Speaker 5 (32:34):
Well, I think for Tone he is very much words of
affirmation mean a lot to him,very much.
Words of affirmation mean a lotto him.
Now, for someone who does notspeak for a living, that's
harder for me, but I know itmeans a lot more to him and so,
thinking of those things, I meanwe used to write things on our

(32:58):
arms to yeah, because youappreciate communication.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
So you wanted to know how my day was going, and not
just what I did, but how I feltabout it.
Right, and so early on I had topractice ways to, to, to give
that to you, cause I didn'tunderstand it.
You know leaders or men, we goout and we warrior and create a
legacy or whatever.
Coming home and our wife'shaving a tough day with two
babies and throws one at you andsays give my bath, you know she
wants to feel connected andbonded.
So I actually would.
I would write on my arm becauseback's pre-phone, and I would

(33:22):
write on my arm two or threethings just to make sure when I
got home I could look at it andremember what they were and try
to bond.
I think for me, the one I wouldsay is conflict resolution.
That was one that you mentionedright, like how to forgive that
process instead of I think andI feel, and you always and you
never but learning how to buildin a culture of letting the

(33:43):
little things go and then havinga set aside time, whether
that's a date night or amanagement period, you know time
where you, the kids are parked,the kids are in bed or the kids
have a babysitter and youactually sit and together go
over any convictional issuesthat have kind of crept in, what
Solomon calls, you know, foxesin the garden, any calendaring

(34:03):
issues that have crept in or anycash money issues that have
crept in.
Those tend to be the threeareas that the enemy will use to
get in between a couple, unlessthere's time set apart to
regularly assess and thatincludes conflict resolution.
We need a time to do that.
If you just try to do that whenthe kids are yelling and you're
going flying by and you givethem a dirty look, that don't

(34:24):
work.
But if you can withhold andthen sit down, write it out, say
here's the problem, I've gotsome solutions on here, but I'd
love to hear from you first.
It's amazing how four dayslater, three days later, two
days later, a lot of the thingswe perceived in the moment
aren't actually issues at all.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
Yeah, maybe it's a played out buzzword, I don't
know, man, but intentionality,intentionality in our marriages,
like and when you talk abouttime, it's just crazy.
You know, it's like we somehowsubconsciously are deceived into
thinking that valuable thingscan happen without time
investment, right.

Speaker 3 (35:01):
By chance, it just takes place.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
It's just stupidity.
It's like some dude's going tobecome Mr Universe without
lifting a weight.
You're going to summit MountEverest without taking a step up
the side of the mountain.
That's insanity.
But this is right, thedefinition of insanity.
Same thing over and over again,expecting a different result.
You honestly expect a differentresult when you're not

(35:22):
investing time to talk as acouple.
Why is our marriage fallingapart?
You don't talk, you don't havegood, healthy, intimacy, you
don't forgive each other, youdon't get in the word, you don't
pray together and you'reshocked your marriage is falling
apart.
You don't fill your car withgas and you're shocked.
It keeps dying every week onthe freeway.
Like that's what I did wrong.

(35:43):
You don't learn.
But, mark, you know, you saidsomething.
That just brought something tomind, of course.

Speaker 3 (35:50):
I did.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
For you young men listening, I call it the suicide
question.
What have you been doing allday?
Never ask your wife that.
Sitting on your hands all day.
Yeah, don't do that man.

Speaker 4 (36:05):
I love that.
We're kind of creeping intochapter four now and I'm dying
to hear the Hairspray story inperson.
I read it, but I want to hearthe story, the hairspray story,
in person.
Like, I read it, but I want tohear it, and I well.
One thing that I love is thatyou guys are super vulnerable in
the book.
I think a lot of people willread those moments and go, oh
man, like we're not, we're notdoomed.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
We're not as bad as the woods.
Yeah, it's true.
Which I do have a question butfirst I want to hear the
hairspray story for ourlisteners.
Do you want to tell it?
No, you go for it?
Well, I got a perfect, doe-eyedwoman that I've married.
So we're married at this point,two years.
We got one little one.
Is Ethan born at that point?
Yeah, so we're in this littlecondo, it's hot summertime,

(36:42):
we're going to church in theevening and air conditioning
broke.
So men, we know what happens.
Hot is one of our issues.
You get hot.
So had a plan.
You know I'm a detailed guy.
So what did I do?
I I washed my dry my clothes,ironed them, had them all
sitting out.
My plan was do the cold shower,put my clothes on, run down,
sit in the air conditioning carwhile she gets ready for 842

(37:03):
days right, so that was my plan.
So I have my plan going and thenI walk out of the shower and
then she's pulled the mirrorbecause it was too hot, not in
the bathroom pulled the stand-upmirror over by the bed and
she's doing her hair.
Now, mind you, the cans thatthis woman requires to do her
hair are a fire extinguisher,it's that big, sexy hairspray.
It's like a red fireextinguisher.
She's got that up on her kneeand propped up and the molecules

(37:29):
dance over her head and downonto my newly pressed clothes.
And so I have felt that littlething inside, you know, and it's
fleshly.
It's wrong so, but I ate, youknow.
I tried to hold it down and itcame out.

Speaker 3 (37:40):
I said molecules and she looks up at me molecules,
you know.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
And then I snapped and I said you know, molecules,
I have my clothes.
And she goes, what are youyou're talking about?
She picks up, she's like fine,and she goes down the hallway,
goes into the bathroom and shutsthe door.
And then she said, little voice, if the show was on the other
foot I wouldn't care.
And I just, you know, young guy, I said, oh really.
So I walk back down the hallwayand there's that little picky

(38:10):
lock thing, you know, in the oldhouses you could take off the
top of the door jamb to get inthe little lock, and so I pick
it open and we're only married ayear and a half, two years and
she's like I married a crazy manhere's.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
Johnny, that's exactly man.

Speaker 1 (38:24):
The episode's like the Shining right and so she's
peeled, peeled back in thebathroom and I peek in it
wouldn't be a big deal, huh, andI grab the hairspray and I go,
taking off down the hallway andlooking over my shoulder, and I
whip open the closet and I'mjust Target acquired, you know,
yellow shirt, blue shirt, thewhole thing and I just start
cutting loose and I'm lookingback over my shoulder, she's

(38:47):
peeking out the hallway and Iremember, halfway through kind
of freezing and thinking I'mgonna die I'm gonna die right
now, long story a little bitshorter.
You know she closes the door andI immediately know it's like
just that.
You just oh the guilt, and Ihear this little voice whimper,
you know, out of the uh thebathroom.
Uh, you know how girls voicesgo higher and higher when they

(39:08):
cry, it's like only a dog canhear it.
She said do you even love meanymore?
And I'll tell you, oscar, thefeeling of having a young wife.
You've just walked the aisleand said in front of everybody,
rich or poor, sickness, health,death to a swear.
That moment was like what haveI done Over molecules, right?

(39:29):
So that's the story.
I'm not proud of it.

Speaker 2 (39:33):
Wow, I was just going to say, tony, anytime I feel
like a bad husband, I'm going toread that story.

Speaker 1 (39:39):
All around the world, listeners of Living.

Speaker 2 (39:41):
Waters.
Thank you, brother.
Feel good about yourself, thatis the gift that I'll keep on
giving Rachel look at me.
I'm not like him.

Speaker 3 (39:48):
Well, here's the idea of just celebrating small
victories together when we beginto expect our spouse to change
in huge chunks, or evenourselves.
That I should be further along.
Sure, I haven't attained, but Ishould be further along.
Swindoll used to say threesteps forward, two steps back.
Three steps forward, two stepsback.
How do we practically celebratelittle victories?

(40:11):
Little steps to give thisaffirmation.
Little victories, little stepsto give this affirmation.
Even you know, we talk aboutsaying something nice every day
to our spouse.
But if I want my spouse tochange hugely, I should change
in small ways, or I shouldrecognize when they're taking
those steps and maybe they mayrevert back and do something

(40:31):
that they said that they wouldnever do again.
Or I do that same thing.
But what does that small steplook like of hey, we're moving,
we are pressing forward, we'repushing onward?
What does that look like?

Speaker 5 (40:45):
A small step.

Speaker 3 (40:46):
Incremental yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
I think it can start with either party, you know.
But I would say I'll speak tothe husband, you can speak to
the wife and maybe, if you havea scripture for them, I go back
to Ephesians 5, and I go back tosacrificial leadership for the
husband and I immediately beginthinking it does not matter at
the end of the day what she'sdoing.
You know, you're going to haveto choose, like Christ, to come

(41:10):
first and you're gonna have tolay down your life first.
And I always picture it like alighthouse, Like if there's a
husband, he's in the home, hisjob is to stand up and say as
for me and my house, this iswhat we're gonna do to serve the
Lord, this is how we're gonnatalk to one another, how we're
gonna pray together.
This is what our familydevotions are gonna be like.
This is when we go to church,why we go to church and, honey,

(41:33):
this is how I plan to serve you.
And, even if it's incrementaland small things, I will get up
before you.
You will see me on my kneesdoing my devotions.
I'm going to model Christ'slikeness and a pursuit of
holiness for the home and foryou.
And the beautiful thing about alighthouse is.
It just stands up and it shinesits light, and the ships in the
harbor can choose to receive itand go to the right area, or
they can choose to hit the rocks.

(41:54):
But the point is he's doingwhat is right regardless, and so
I always picture that as thehusband's role.
Do you want to add anything?

Speaker 2 (42:00):
for the ladies.
Can I say something real quickbefore we go to Bree?
If people can grasp theprofundity of what you just said
because you said a lot therebut the last part people might
not.
They might just kind of glossover it.
People will do what they'regoing to do, but you did what's
right in the sight of the Lord.
That is the pinnacle of truefreedom in Christ.

(42:24):
No one can touch my obedienceto the Lord.
I can't control anyone'sreaction.
We do the best we can, and Italk about this often.
We can create the type ofatmosphere that makes it more
conducive for our spouse to dowhat they're called to do, or
for anybody, but we can'tcontrol them.
But we have the freedom to dothe greatest thing that we can

(42:48):
do on this planet and that'sobey God.
And if there's anything thathas really been downplayed, it's
the significance of obedienceto the Lord.

Speaker 3 (42:59):
And listen.
Let's take that a step further,because we are fallen people
living in a fallen world and wemake fallen decisions.
That when we mess up, we fessup.
Right.
Todd Friel had said your kids,your spouse, should know that
you're the biggest sinner in thehouse.
And what he meant by that isnot that you are messing up more
than anyone else, but you'realways fessing up.

(43:20):
That they're always seeing youtake that step and saying I had
a harsh word with mama thisweekend you may or may not have
seen that, or I did not treatyou correctly in the midst of
this that they're always seeingyou move forward because you
know, sure, obedience isabsolutely that's it.
But what does that look like?

(43:40):
What does that obedience looklike?
That obedience looks like?
But God?
But God who is rich in mercy?
Yeah, I messed up, but I'mmoving forward.
Come along with me.
Yeah, I haven't done familydevotions for the last three
years, but we're doing familydevotions tonight and I may not
have it tomorrow, and when Icome to that realization, we're
going to have it that night aswell, and it all circles back to

(44:02):
obedience, because when youmess up in your obedience the
obedient thing to do is torepent.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
So that comes back into play there as well.
But yeah, that freedom and thatliberty of I live under Christ,
and that's what matters at theend of the day.
Because here's the thing, right, when someone is short-sighted
and their obedience is alwaystied to outcome, they give up
Because, okay, god, I'm doingwhat you called me to do.
She's not changing, he's notchanging.

(44:33):
Oh well, I guess I'm done doingwhat I was doing.
My doing, what I'm called to dois the end of it all.
That's period.
I'm obeying God and Lord, Ipray, you work through it.
I'm trying to create anatmosphere, but you do that.
And again, you guys do a greatjob in the book, highlighting
that we obey the Lord, wesurrender to Him, we live unto
His glory Easy.

Speaker 3 (44:52):
Can you address for just a moment and you've done it
several times in the past theidea of having your hands on the
faucet?
You have the hot, you have thecold, you have the water, you're
turning it.
Explain it.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
Right?
Well, I often talk about howour call is to walk in 1
Corinthians 13 love which isunconditional.
It has nothing to do with therecipient, it gives for the sake
of giving, expecting nothing inreturn.
And the way it should look islike our spouse is like a
crystal vase, and they're placedunder the spout and we crank
the knobs full blast.

(45:25):
And each one of the littlestreamlets making up that thick
course of water flowing in ourspouse is representative of each
attribute of agape love,patience and kindness and
forgiveness and so forth.
And that's how it should look.
We're called to pour the fullflow of love into our spouse,
independent of what they do ordon't do.
And most relationships startthat way, at least ostensibly,

(45:46):
by way of appearance, like youknow.
Oh, I love you and everything'sgreat and it's flowing.
But that day comes when he orshe does that thing that rubs us
the wrong way.
Right, that little feeling thatcame up in you, Tony, with the
hairspray.
Right, the molecules.
And what are we tempted to do?
We're tempted to reach out ourgrubby little fingers, grab a
hold of those knobs and startturning them down a few notches.

(46:08):
Which means what?
We're withholding patience,we're withholding kindness.
And what is the capstonedefinition of love?
It doesn't fail, it doesn't end, it's unconditional.
And so I tell people look, whenI have couples come to us and
we're counseling them, I sharethis analogy and I say look, my
question to you.
I'm going to hear what you haveto say about what they did, but
I'm always going to come backto you and ask you one simple

(46:28):
question Did?
But I'm always going to comeback to you and ask you one
simple question Did you touchthe knobs?
Because you never have so much.
You have no justification to somuch as put a fingernail on
those knobs, regardless of whatthey did or didn't do.
You're not allowed to withholdpatience and kind because they
did this or didn't do that, youknow.
So, yeah, that's key.
But, bree, we were going tohave you say something and I
interrupted.

(46:49):
I'm so sorry.

Speaker 5 (46:49):
I can't remember, but just to add to what you were
saying I worried about that.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
I'm like no, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 5 (46:54):
But thinking too with what you were saying.
I mean, philippians 3 talksabout our inheritances in heaven
, and so often we're so focusedon getting glory for ourselves
and or not receiving somethingthat we forget the command that
God's called us to in a marriage.
And you know, in Ephesians 5, 33, it says nevertheless, let each
individual among you also lovehis own wife even as himself,

(47:17):
and let the wife see to it thatshe respect her husband.
And so my respect for myhusband isn't contingent upon
what he has done for me, it'scontingent upon my love for the
Lord and my devotion for theLord.
And so, just each morning, Ithink, with a little step that
you can take is putting beforethe Lord.

(47:39):
How can I have a heavenlymindset?
You know how I'm loving myhusband.
How can I have a heavenlymindset with how I respect him
today, the things that I say,the things that I don't say, the
things that I do, the thingsthat I say, the things that I
don't say, the things that I do,the things that I pray by the
Holy Spirit's power that I don'tdo, and really just putting
before that.

Speaker 4 (47:57):
Amen, I would love.
The reason why I wanted tobring up the hairspray wasn't
just to make you look like apsychopath.

Speaker 5 (48:05):
I'm a psychopath too, by the way.

Speaker 4 (48:07):
No, I read that and I'm like dude.
He's a psychopath.

Speaker 5 (48:09):
But although I'm a psychopath.
No, I read that I'm like dude,he's a psychopath.

Speaker 4 (48:12):
But although I'm a psychopath because I have to
imagine that there are so manycouples out there that heard
that story just now and are likewe got a hundred of those I've
done that in a hundred differentways and it reminds me of Paul
Tripp's book what Did you Expect?
He talks about how, like theselittle arguments, these small
things started as small cracksand they turn if we don't pay

(48:34):
attention to them.
These small little cracks inour foundation becomes large
crevices, just caverns.
It gets harder and harder andso some couple out there is
probably just feeling the senseof their caverns.
They've got a hundred of thosestories.
What would you say to thatcouple right now?
That's listening going.
Man, how do we even recoverfrom 50 hairspray conversations?

(48:56):
Yeah, immediately.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
I go to the overflow of the heart.
The mouth speaks, and so watchover your heart, for from it for
the springs of life, like atthe end of the day, you've got
to begin there, with the root,and so getting on your knees and
really coming to terms, likeBree mentioned, whether it's the
guy or the gal coming to termswith the Lord, about who you are
in Christ, about the sins thatyou've committed and having

(49:19):
those confessed, making sureyou've repented to your spouse
and that really was I jokedabout it, but that really was
part of our story Five yearsmarried and I get that phone
call and I'm driving homethinking is she leaving me?
Because all it was was a girlon tears saying you got to come
home right now from work.
I'm at the church office, andso I'm driving home and I'm
preparing myself.

(49:40):
Okay, lord, something'shappened.
And I come upstairs and she'ssitting on the bed and she's a
wreck.
And I sit down next to her andI say, okay, sweetie, what's
going on?
And she starts confessingeverything.
She had read chapter 20 of LoveDare and that's just funny.

(50:01):
Out of all the books, it's thatone you know.
And she hit the gospel sectionbecause the whole idea is I'm
going to get this book and it'sgoing to fix our marriage.
You get to chapter 20 and theLord goes I'm going to save you,
and she falls to her knees,begins to cry, and so by the

(50:21):
time I get there, she's justgoing through every single sin
all the way back to the age offour.
This happened to me.
I've never told anybody.
I chose to do this.
I've never told anybody, and mywife was a new creature, a new
creation in Christ.
And so you talk about the gospeland, oscar, you bring up a
question like that Withouttaking the gospel and pulling
that over us and beginning there.

(50:43):
It doesn't matter how muchmarital counseling you go to, it
doesn't matter how many booksyou read little red books or
little white books or littleblue books At the end of the day
you have to come to grips withthe fact that there was one who
came and he lived the life thatyou never could have lived and
he paid the penalty that youshould have paid and he rose
again on the third day,according to the scriptures, and

(51:04):
he offers you his life, andwhen that clicks, you go for the
rest of my life back toobedience.
I will do anything it takes toplease him and therefore to work
and fight for my marriage, andso that would be my heart's cry
to anybody who's listening.
And you're right, we've doneenough counseling in our day to
know hairspraying clothes is theleast of it.
We have people come in and howmany fairs and prostitutes and
pornography, and they're layersdeep and hardened in sin.

(51:27):
But the answer is the same, andso I would.
I want to throw them back tothe gospel of Jesus.
I think to say anything elseother than starting with the
heart would be to offer.
You know, I can't think of agood analogy.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
And find a good biblical counselor.
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 5 (51:44):
Can you say that again, sweetie, I said, and find
a good biblical counselor.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
Somebody who can walk with you through that journey?
Yeah, amen.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
Yeah, a good church.
Yeah, well, I was going toactually head toward that.
One of the chapters in yourbook is find a church to help
the home.
But before that, I just want tohighlight what you said, tony.
You know, gospel centricity,man, is massive, you know, and
this is so missed today.
Right, it's the gospel as asolution in terms of redemption,
it's a tool of salvation, butit's beyond that.
It's a treasure house ofspiritual riches from which we
live.
The gospel informs and touchesevery area of our lives as

(52:17):
believers, and that includes ourmarriages and our family life.
So we've talked a lot,obviously, about marriage, and,
I think, appropriately so, butthe book's also about family,
about your kids and yourhousehold and your home, and
that all trickles over.
But I'd love you to touch onsome of that and get into
parenting and family and allthat in the time we have left.
But also, yeah, how does alocal church play a role in all

(52:42):
that?

Speaker 1 (52:44):
I think the local church would be.
If you're trying to fight, it'syour army and it gives you the
battle plan, it gives you thetroops on either side, and
anybody who's ever been on asports team can immediately
testify to the fact.
There's times you're feelinggood, there's times you're not.
But when you go in the lockerroom and you get revved up by
your teammate and he says, hey,we're going to go back out,

(53:05):
we're going to win the third andfourth quarter.
If you can't go, I'll carry youthrough this thing, we're going
to tear down the goalposts forvictory, I think you realize the
power of a team.
Yeah, and that's what happenswith a church the authority of
God's word, the sufficiency ofscripture, and you submit
yourself to that.
And then you got this groupthat comes alongside you and
says that side you and says thatthing, right there, we're going

(53:26):
to obey, and even when thingsare hard, we're going to obey,
and you're not doing it alone.
And so a local church is key,expository, preaching, or a
church that just preaches theBible, making sure you're at a
church where there's some levelof communication between the
elders and the congregation, sothat you know when people are in
sin you're not just solo.
You're not a lone ranger in alocal church that is fired up

(53:50):
and passionate for evangelism,and so just making sure you're
in a healthy local church is key.

Speaker 4 (53:54):
This was my favorite chapter you guys wrote because I
think it's so important, sooften overlooked.
And what I've seen is thatthere are couples that think
they have their people, andsometimes their people are even
in the church, but it's likewhen the guy goes to the guys,
they just harp on the wives,wives, and the wives go to the
wives and they just harp on thewives.
But a gospel-centered communitythat's rooted in god's inerrant

(54:16):
word is holding marriagesaccountable to god's definition
of marriage.
And so those boys, they'reholding their man accountable,
not just like, oh yeah, I didn'tknow true.
And the ladies are holdingtheir women accountable to a
biblical standard.
It's my favorite one becauseit's a testimony to my marriage.
Like my, I was shamedly a young, promiscuous guy.

(54:37):
My mom had four divorces.
I had no idea what a biblicalmarriage looked like.
My wife was an unbeliever outof an abusive marriage.
You know, we just the odds werestacked against us.
Statistically speaking, we wereset up to fail and I can tell
you those first few years, beingrooted in a biblical church and

(54:59):
having men and women investinto who we were, holding me
accountable as a leader and as aman, encouraging my wife as a
servant man, it radicallycreated an incredible foundation
for our marriage that buckedall the stats that are out there
, because that's what the gospeldoes.
Yeah, amen, that's great.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
You know, abri, I wanted to ask you.
I mean, you guys are parents,you have three children and it's
been a joy to see the fruit ofyour godly marriage impact your
children.
And my daughter Kylie and yourdaughter Peyton are buddies
right, they hang out.
Tony, you love Kylie's car.

Speaker 1 (55:37):
I do Her cool little car.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
Hell yeah, she's 4 to 11.
You can't even see her head.
It looks like a self-drivingcar man, but we've been so
blessed because Peyton's beensuch a blessing to Kylie.
You know that godliness andsweetness, but speak to that
like how a marriage canpositively or negatively affect
children and parenting.

Speaker 5 (55:57):
Absolutely.
And just to say, kylie's beensuch a blessing to Peyton.
How she speaks of her.
It makes me want to run downthere and be like hi.

Speaker 4 (56:04):
Kylie, but I don't want to be the creepy mom.

Speaker 5 (56:06):
But I think, in regards to your question I'm
drawing a blank right now whatyou actually asked.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
I'd asked how a godly marriage can impact negatively
or positively children andparenting.

Speaker 5 (56:23):
Yes, To hear Peyton tell the doctor.
The doctor asks her every yearwhat do you want to be when you
grow up?
And her answer for this lastsix years has been I want to be
a mom and a wife, and that hasbeen really, really special to
see God's grace.
That is not a testament to howgood Tony and I have done,

(56:43):
because we have had to come tothem countless times.
Because we have had to come tothem countless times and we'll
have to continue to ask forforgiveness for not being an
example in a certain way or notdoing what God's asked us to.
But I think, just coming backto forgiveness and knowing that
we are all on different paths ofsanctification, we're all

(57:05):
striving to serve Christ, but tocontinue to come to them and
apologize when we've wrongedthem or I've had to come
countless times to where I havenot submitted to my husband and
I have responded in a way thathas been rude or a better word
would be, and so I think, comingback to that and just

(57:29):
constantly showing them thatit's God's word that we're
living by, it's not mom and dadare nailing it, that's what I
would say the authority ofscripture as opposed to.

Speaker 1 (57:39):
I think and I feel and this month we're doing this
and this month we're grab thisbook and doing this, just trying
to always center that theauthority in our home is not
just the Bible for you guys,it's the Bible for us as well,
and I think that provides acentering point.
It provides an avenue wherewe're all running the race
together and we even have times.
I mean, she is soself-deprecating, but obviously

(58:02):
she's the spiritual one in thefamily and she puts up with me
and you make it sound like Ihave to put up with you, but it
really is amazing how many timesyou will have a family unit
come together and even the kidswill say hey, mama, I think this
might be a Proverbs X, y and Zissue and you begin to talk
through the authority of theBible and it really does

(58:22):
transform a home.

Speaker 3 (58:24):
You know Spurgeon said train up a child in the way
you should go, but be sureyou're going that way yourself.
I was making a list earliertoday to send out to my Ohana,
my family text thread, of thingsthat I want my kids to always
be able to hit me up.
We're leaving the house, dad,did you grab the tracks?
Dad, how was your time with Momtoday?

(58:45):
Did you celebrate those littlevictories today?
Did you say something nice tomom today?
Those little reminders, thosecontinual things.
To be an example in order tosay imitate me as I imitate
Christ, is a huge thing to beable to say and I remember
saying that a couple timesimitate me as I imitate Christ.
And I just fall on my face andI just do something just
horrific inside, inside my eyes.

(59:06):
But the idea is to be anexample, is to be vulnerable, is
to allow your kids in, to allowthat your spouse in.
I'm struggling with thesethings.
I want you to keep meaccountable.
Many years ago, easy had comingto me, said, hey, listen, no
matter how much it hurts, I wantyou to just know that you can
come and talk to me aboutanything.
So if you see egg on my face, Ijust want to say you have

(59:30):
permission to just say so, justpreface it with this.
Remember that time you told methat I should be able to come to
you and talk.
Remember this Easy, absolutely.
And so from time to time I'llgo to Easy and I go listen.
I think that there's somethinghappening that you're just not
aware of, and that is a greatway, a great approach with your
kids, with my son Tanny, or anyof my other four kids.

Speaker 1 (59:52):
So Tanny's here today , you know, and having him as a
member of our church, as a youngman that everybody respects, I
think that's important to besaid.
Oscar, I've not had a chance tomeet your family, the privilege
of meeting your family, yet,but EZ, your family is ahead of
us a couple of years in the raceand Mark, your family is ahead
of us a few years in the race.
We look up to you guys and theway that your children are

(01:00:14):
living for the Lord, and sothank you for your model and
example to us.
Even with Tani, who really is abody and soul member of our
church who touches a lot oflives, God has been so gracious
and kind.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
You look back and you think of what your concepts
were of marriage, of parenting,and you're like man, what was I
thinking?
And again, textbook is onething, but when you're living it
out and you're experiencing it,you end up realizing man, where

(01:00:48):
would we be without thesufficiency man, where would we
be without the sufficiency ofScripture?
Where would we be without God'sWord?
You know, you have the worldtrying to figure it out and I've
used this description before,but it's literally like a boat,
lost at sea, without any sails,without any oars, without a
motor, without a compass.
I mean people trying to figureout life without the author of

(01:01:10):
life, without the instructionmanual on life.
It's insanity and the grace ofGod.
All of us here have talkedabout our failures and our
weaknesses.
All of that is a testimony tothe grace and the mercy of God,
his patience with us and Hiscall to us to run to Him that he

(01:01:32):
would give us mercy and help intime of need, boldly.
So your book helps people to dothat.
Guys, it's phenomenal and forthose of you listening, I just
want to whet your appetite.
Here are some of the chaptertitles Build your Home on the
Rock.
Put Hubby in the Driver Seat.
I like that one.
Don't Let Feminists Run you Offwhen you Fight.

(01:01:52):
Fight Fair.
Make Love, not Lust, penniesProof Priorities.
Set the Fence for Relatives.
Treat your Body Like His Temple.
Develop a Winning Game Plan,Correct from Love, not Hate.
Find a Church to Help the Homeand Divorce Proof your Marriage
I mean that in and of itself,was a devotional right there.
Right, I mean packed withcontent, but bite-sized to where

(01:02:13):
it's not overwhelming.
Very practical, veryinteractive.
And so, friends, we wannaencourage you to check it out
Again Little Red Book forMarriage and Family, 12
Principles for RelationalThriving and check out Mission
Bible Church Costa Mesa.
Look them up If you're in thearea you're visiting or if
you're looking for a new homechurch, biblically based and

(01:02:35):
full of love and life and action.
They're out there sharing thegospel.
They're out there interactingwith the lost on so many levels.
So there you have it, friends.
Some people get lost in thewoods.
Today, we got found in thewoods.
Thank you for joining us,friends.
We'll see you here next time onthe Living Waters podcast,

(01:02:56):
where we not Tony and Bree, we,we three have no idea what we're
doing.