Ep. 334 - The Power of Leading by Example in Evangelism

Cory McKenna, founding president of The Cross Current, joins Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar to discuss the power of leading by example in evangelism. Cory, once a pastor who struggled with sharing his faith, shares his story of conviction. The discussion highlights that all the men at the table are byproducts of strong leadership in evangelism. Cory emphasizes that pastors should be examples in evangelism, as imitation is central to discipleship. Modern Christianity often prioritizes information over transformation, but biblical discipleship resembles an apprenticeship. Jesus didn’t simply teach—He commanded His followers to walk alongside Him. Leaders should bring people into their lives as Paul instructed Timothy.

The discussion explores how evangelism should be ingrained in church life. There are only three times in scripture the world evangelism is used, yet the role is essential in equipping the church. Many Christians are being discipled but not discipling others. E.Z. warns that churches neglecting evangelism should concern us. Christians should feel compelled to reach the lost because today is the only guaranteed time to share. Evangelism is a natural expression of joy in salvation. Cory stresses that worship is obedience, and witnessing is an act of worship. Everything we do should reflect Christ. Fear often hinders evangelism, but love should overcome it. Christians should not linger too long in apologetics—rather, they should step out and share the gospel.

Being a witness extends beyond words; our lives must align with the message we preach. Just as lawyers attempt to discredit witnesses, the world watches Christians closely. We are heralds of the kingdom, returning from glimpsing the future to tell the world. The most enthusiastic evangelists are those deeply impacted by the gospel. Evangelism is unique—it’s the only pyramid scheme where everyone wins. If a Christian isn’t sharing the gospel, they should examine their faith. Fear is common, but fearing the Lord should motivate us to persuade others. Serving the world over God means lacking holy fear. A judge doesn’t seek eloquence but truth—likewise, Christians should simply share what they’ve seen and heard. Guilt over inaction should drive us toward evangelism. Paul exemplifies this burden for the lost in Philippians.

Evangelism begins in the home. Parents must model faith to their children, showing them the power of the gospel at the dinner table. Small, consistent efforts—preaching to neighbors, handing out tracts, setting goals—will grow into a lifestyle of evangelism.

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Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
So when Jesus calls us, come, follow me, he's
calling us into discipleship.
And I think today in modernChristianity, what we want is we
want a transaction.
We wanna say Jesus be my Lordand Savior, but then when he
says, pick up your cross andfollow me, we're like, eh, I'd

(00:20):
rather you, just you do all thework and then let me go about my
business.
And so what you're talkingabout here is discipleship.
As leaders of churches, weshould be bringing people into
our lives, at our dinner tables,in our daily routines, and when
a pastor, an elder, when hisroutine in life is evangelistic

(00:43):
in nature and then he invitesthe members of his church to
witness that, they are gonnabecome evangelistic in nature.
Mark, I just had a conversationwith somebody, a young adult,
and they were like man.
Mark is like a father figure tome.
I lived with him for almost ayear.
I go out with him every Friday.
They didn't say to me I learnededucationally from Mark how to

(01:07):
be an evangelist.
They said to me I followed him.
I observed his life in the home, him at the dinner table, him
raising his kids.
I observed him being anevangelist in life and that has
made an impact on my life.
That's the kind of leaders thatwe need to raise up evangelists
.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
I love, I love, I love root canals.

Speaker 1 (01:41):
It's like this moment for me?
Yeah, I never.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
I never in all my life thought I would say such a
thing, but I went to Dr James.

Speaker 3 (01:50):
Lynn, no, you're sincere, you're not being
sarcastic, no, no no, no, no, Ahundred percent.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Went to Dr James Lynn .
I think we talked about mytooth issue the other day, the
abscess and all that craziness.
Anyway, he did some stuff, tookaway my pain, but then had to
do a root canal and you guysknow that before this, when he
had to work on the abscess, itwas the worst pain I'm not
exaggerating I've ever had in mylife and so you can imagine I'm
thinking a root canal Like I'mdead right Barbecued Arab.

(02:16):
It was the most pleasantexperience.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
Pleasant.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
Well, I mean, it's like I'm lying there and he did
the thing, blah, blah, blah.
And I'm like, all right, whenare you going to start?
And he's like I'm done, likewhat do you mean?
You're done.
And Ray, you know he lovesdentistry.

Speaker 3 (02:33):
Yeah, I've told you before, my dentist is the best
dentist in the world.
I've fallen asleep when he'sworked on my teeth.
Yeah, seriously, seriously Idid have canal about three years
ago and I changed the name ofthe message saying evangelism is
worse than a root canal.
I've turned it around becausethat's a terrible experience.
I thought I was gonna die.
Yeah, hold you upside down andtry and choke you to death.
But James Lin, it's just anincredible dentist and he loves

(02:58):
human drainpipes.
He loves it was born to staredown people's mouths.
I couldn't name anything worse.
Yeah, well, I I probably could,but I just.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
Have either of you ever considered brushing your
teeth?

Speaker 2 (03:09):
No, no, because it's my new hobby root canals so I'm
going to be doing this all thetime.

Speaker 3 (03:13):
So James really, really loves working on people's
teeth and he asked if he couldcome back.
He wants to pull all his teethout and screw them in again.
Just for fun on a Saturdaymorning.
Just for fun on a Saturdaymorning, just for fun.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, friends, if you live anywhere in Southern
California, check out Dr JamesLynn's Southland Dental in
Anaheim.
Southland Dental in Anaheim.

Speaker 3 (03:31):
And we don't get a kickback for that.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah no kickback.
Yeah, it's wonderful.
Today, friends, we have with usa friend who's sitting by.
Look how patient he is, howcalm, how relaxed.
Corey McKenna, who's got thecoolest head of hair on the
planet.

Speaker 4 (03:46):
Thanks, EZ.
I appreciate that.
It is pretty smooth.
How much was that Smoothness, Imean?

Speaker 2 (03:51):
each hair like perfectly aligned.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
That's part of the package.
It reminds me of the pipelineon a good day in Hawaii.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
It does have that.
Look.
Yeah, Corey McKenna, all theway here from Canada.
Did you know the US is gonnabecome a Canadian province soon.

Speaker 4 (04:08):
Well, that's what we're hoping.
I don't think it's gonna happen, though we're on our way.
Brother, your president wouldhave a lot to say about that.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah, he would.
But Corey is the equippingevangelist and the founding
president of the Cross Current.
Love that name, by the way.
Always have loved the name ofyour ministry.
Thank Cross Current.
Love that name, by the way.
Always have loved the name ofyour ministry.
Thank you, it's cool.
You've been a pastor since 2002and equipping evangelist since
2007.
And not only do you live withyour wife Dawn I would hope so,

(04:34):
but you brought her with you wedid Wise man.

Speaker 3 (04:37):
It's not good for men to be alone.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
London, ontario, canada, two sons, joshua and
Caleb.
That's it.
Couldn't you give them abiblical name, brother, we
thought those were good names.
Yeah, they were the only twoguys who survived the whole cut.
That's true, Very good names,bro.
We're blessed to have you withus.
It's a joy to be here.
We'll talk to you later.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
And now time friends.
Very cool, Classy comments.
That's it.
You can go now.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Just a girl from Texas said praise God for you
guys.
I'm 15, and for as long as Ican remember my family has
watched Living Waters.
While I was impressed at yourevangelism, I had never felt the
need to do it myself.
Why should I when people likeyou already are?
Well, about a year ago Istarted listening to the podcast
and, wow, I've bounced aroundfrom listening to it in order to

(05:22):
picking it and picking andchoosing back to listening in
order.
It has honestly been one of thebiggest areas of my growth as a
Christian.
Y'all somehow balance humor,fellowship and theological
discussions perfectly, and Ican't get enough.
You guys say y'all in Canadaanywhere.
Not so much, come on bro we saya lot apparently, yeah hey, how
about that?

Speaker 3 (05:40):
We're trying to bring y'all over here because I like
y'all, so efficient, soefficient, easy, you have
inspired me there we go.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
This is why he's reading it.

Speaker 3 (05:49):
This is a kickback.
This is why easy.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
You have inspired me to work on memorizing the
epistles yes, all of them.
That being said, maybe y'allcould do an episode on
memorization that'd be good,we'll try to remember.
That friend mark of yours.
I also love all of the voices.
You do, though yourre-impersonation, while funny,
may not be 100% accurate.
It's not even 3% accurate.

(06:12):
You just lost me there, sister,what are you talking about?

Speaker 1 (06:16):
This is the most offensive comment you've ever
read.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
You know how many people around the world tell me
I do your accent so beautifullyThree, three?
Do you know how many peoplearound the world tell me I do
your accent so beautifully Three, three million?

Speaker 3 (06:27):
Even your wife disagrees with you about it.
She loves you, you guys areKiwis.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
Whatever, oscar, your empathy for the lost while not
condoning them at all, alongwith your love for Narnia, is
wonderful.
I have had a new desire to readmany more Christian nonfiction
books, and I'm very grateful,mark.
Your wisdom and ability to keepdiscussions on track is

(06:52):
admirable and thank you for it.
It has helped me to engage mymind more when considering
things In truth.
I believe that y'all's podcasthas helped me incredibly.
You have taught me to thinkcritically when it comes to many
people who claim Christianityand to keep Christ and the Bible
the first, foremost and onlyobject of truth for my life.

(07:12):
I am incredibly, incrediblygrateful.
I'll be praying PS Easy.
Keep singing, yes, I will youdon't have to, I can't.

Speaker 5 (07:21):
You know Corey sings, do you?

Speaker 2 (07:23):
Corey, he needs to be part of a band.

Speaker 5 (07:24):
That's my background.
Oh, that's right, you showed usyour big moth, the mug shot.

Speaker 4 (07:28):
Yeah, man, sing us a mug shot.
Sing us a mug shot.
Come on, muggy, that'll be theencore Lead guitarist.
Yeah, were you like into 90srock scene Give us an example.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
Top three 90s rock bands Go Of a song?
No, through voice.

Speaker 4 (07:46):
Just sing us something.
What do you want me to?

Speaker 5 (07:47):
sing.
I have no idea what you cansing, just give us something.

Speaker 3 (07:49):
Happy birthday.
No, you are the champions.

Speaker 4 (07:53):
We are the champions.

Speaker 3 (07:54):
Leave the guy alone.

Speaker 4 (07:55):
That's too high.
Leave the guy alone.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
That's too high.
All right.
Source this podcast is broughtto you by Scientific Facts in
the Bible.
A hundred reasons to believethe Bible is supernatural in
origin.

Speaker 5 (08:10):
Is that better?

Speaker 2 (08:11):
Contrast Oscar, up here, down here, ray, hundreds
of thousands of copies.

Speaker 3 (08:17):
Yeah, 600,000, I think.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
That sounds prideful.
Go ahead, yes.

Speaker 3 (08:23):
But our publisher's bridge logo has allowed us to
have a massive print, so itbrings the unit price down to
under a dollar per book sopeople can buy them.
They come in a box of 80.
So easy to give away and I'vegiven so many to people who say
I don't want your book and theylook at it and say, yeah, I like
this.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:38):
Because it's got Einstein on the front and a
dinosaur.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
I've never gotten more texts about a book than
yours, because people see it atairports, right?

Speaker 5 (08:48):
Hey, raise a book in the airport.
I'm always turning them aroundat airports.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
Oh, that's great.

Speaker 5 (08:52):
So people don't buy them A book right in front of it
.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah.
So check it out, friends.
Don't forget the Living Watersmug, from which you can take a
chug.
Don't forget the evidence studyBible that's liable to bring
about revival.
Don't forget the evidence studyBible that's liable to bring
about revival.
And Living Waters TValllivingwaterscom.
All right, friends.
Back to Corey Mark.
You love my stuff, don't lie,corey.

(09:15):
Yes, sir Bro, I am so thrilledabout what the Lord is doing
through your life, through yourministry.

Speaker 5 (09:23):
Me too.

Speaker 2 (09:24):
You are honestly one of my favorite people on the
planet because of I appreciatethat, Thank you, yeah, your
passion for the Lord, yoursingle-mindedness and man, your
perseverance I mean you've beenat this a long, long time.

Speaker 4 (09:38):
I have, and I've got the battle scars to prove it.

Speaker 5 (09:40):
It all started.

Speaker 4 (09:41):
Here, though I mean just laying that all down.
It all started right here, 2006.
I was a pastor five years in,had no clue how to share my
faith with anybody.
I was teaching it and preachingit.
I was a flat-out hypocrite.
And you guys turned me around.
Wow, it's that simple.
So it was the academy.
It was the academy.
How'd you hear about it?

(10:01):
Through a friend who's now theexecutive director of Answers in
Genesis, canada.
He sent me Hell's Best KeptSecret.
I listened, I was convicted andI boarded an airplane alone,
just in case it went south, punintended, and it didn't, here I
am.
It went south, then north and,yeah, then we started a ministry
to equip churches andChristians to share their faith,

(10:22):
and it all started here.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
That is so encouraging.
And, for those who don't know,the Ambassadors Academy is a
weekend-long program that wehost now once a year where we
bring about 100 students in andit's.
I think the thing that's supercool and unique and I'm sure you
can speak to this, corey isthat we do in-classroom type
training, but I mean, you canget that anywhere.
It's not just informationtransformation.
We then take people out on thestreets, stand side by side with

(10:50):
them as they sometimes preachthe gospel for the very first
time.

Speaker 3 (10:54):
Most of them do, I think, don't they?
They break the sound barrier.
We teach them about fishing andthen throw them in the ocean.
That's right.

Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah, and Corey, you've actually been out a
couple times with people, right,or?

Speaker 1 (11:06):
how many times have you come out?

Speaker 4 (11:07):
Out here Several times yeah several times Brought
some people out.
We're coming again actuallywith a group.
Oh, really this one coming upthis one coming up in June.

Speaker 3 (11:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
Wonderful, that's exciting.
Well, we're so blessed thatyou're part of this discussion
and I think all of us at thetable here can say that we are
really byproducts of example.
I mean, ray has been ourexample, us three here, and

(11:38):
including you, corey, obviouslyand obviously.
Ray had the example of the Wordand what we see in the Word
Because, ray, when you startedopen-air preaching, was there
anyone doing it in New Zealand?

Speaker 3 (11:51):
No, really I don't think there was open-air
campaigners, but they wouldstand in a little sort of van on
the side of a thing and talk topeople.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
I don't know if I've ever even asked you this.
You know we're often birthedinto a certain context,
spiritually speaking, like aChristian culture.
That wasn't a part of theChristian culture.
What motivated you to open air,preach?
I mean, was it what you wereseeing in Scripture?

Speaker 5 (12:16):
Seriously, Were people doing it in America.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
I mean you had no example.

Speaker 5 (12:20):
No.

Speaker 3 (12:21):
Wow, no, I just knew I had to do it and go into all
the world, preach the gospel toevery creature.
And the crowd gathered in thelocal square cell there and did
it, and I used to encouragemyself when I felt alone and
there was a lot of hecklers justyelling at me as I walked back
to my car.
They're still yelling at mewhen I walked back to my car and
I thought I've got theprivilege of preaching the

(12:42):
everlasting gospel in the lastdays in the outermost part of
the earth, in the city thatbears the name of the Lord
Christ's church, and that usedto just give me courage.
I'd go back the next day, but Ijust.
I was so thankful for theopportunity.
That's really what it came from.
I just so wanted to share thegospel and to think I got a
crowd, or crowds of 60, 80, 100people sometimes, or the good

(13:03):
heckler 200.
When the wizard gave me hiscrowd, I thought this is just
such a privilege.

Speaker 5 (13:07):
And how did you draw a crowd way back?
Do you remember?

Speaker 3 (13:10):
Yeah, horribly, it was very difficult.
For the first 18 months Ididn't elevate myself, I just
stood on the ground and peoplewouldn't stop.
But when I got on a littleladder it gave people an excuse
to stop.
See what this idiot's talkingabout.

Speaker 5 (13:22):
And how did you know that?
How did you know I need to geta ladder, get some elevation,
the wizard, because the wizardwas on a ladder, he had a ladder
.

Speaker 3 (13:29):
And one day I thought people gather around because
obviously you've got somethingto say if you exalt yourself.
And that's what people say.
Who are you to stand up andtalk to us on a ladder?
You're exalting yourself.
I said it's because I'm short.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
Look at the size of me.
I like the idea that thetradition of standing on a box
and open air preaching inAmerica all started because Ray
wanted to be eye level in.
New.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
Zealand.
That was it.
Yeah, that's so encouraging,corey, speak to that.
Right, like you were a pastor,and we often talk about how, if
pastors were to be that exampleyou know, I was talking to
someone the other day and wewere talking about how maybe in

(14:15):
the whole world there's ahundred pastors that actually go
out and evangelize like andlead their people like senior
pastors.
Sure, right, I'd love you tospeak to that.
Why don't we see that more?

Speaker 4 (14:28):
There's a lot of angles to that prism, I think,
and one reason I believe is Ithink there's just a disconnect
between leadership andevangelism If we replaced
evangelism with prayer, ofcourse pastors go to prayer
meetings, pastors go to Sundaymorning worship I was a pastor,
you were a pastor.
I mean we lead by example inall of these areas.
But evangelism seems to be sortof open season for we don't

(14:50):
have to do that.
But that's not.
Paul's affection to youngPastor Timothy, I mean do the
work of an evangelist is on thesame list.
And so I think we need torethink Hebrews 13, 7,.
Imitate the faith of yourleaders.
Sadly, in a lot of church Ithink that's exactly what's
happening.
That's not to be disrespectfulto pastors.
They've got a hard job, they'vegot a big job, they've got tons

(15:11):
of plates spinning.
But I kind of think evangelismis front and center to the
reason Jesus came to seek andsave the lost.
So that has to be our priorityas leaders and I think the heart
of discipleship 1 Corinthians11, 1, really strikes to be
imitators of me as I am ofChrist, follow my example.
Niv says as I follow theexample of Christ, I have an

(15:32):
illustration.
Can I share an illustrationreal quick?

Speaker 1 (15:33):
Yes, that's why you're here.

Speaker 4 (15:35):
This really is sort of a testimonial illustration
that sums up the whole aspect ofexample.
Why does our ministry sayequipping the church by example?
The way you set the table, ez,is so true.
Example, example, example.
Imitation is at the very heartof discipleship.
So the illustration goes likethis Wind the clock back.
I'm growing up on the east coastof Canada.

(15:57):
I'm a young guy, I'm an old guy, so this is pre-internet.
I've always loved white Bengaltigers.
My favorite animal is a whiteBengal tiger.
Just the power, the beauty.
I had a picture of one on mywall and I would look at this
animal and I thought to myself Iwonder if I could own one of
these things.
You can own one of these things.
Went bad for Siegfried and Roy,remember those guys.
But you can own one.

(16:18):
But the way it works.
I did a bunch of research andwhat I found out was that when
you buy a tiger, they remove thecub from its mother as soon as
it's born.
That's essential.
And it's raised around yourfamily in your household.
Over time becomes totallydomesticated.
It's just a big house cat.
It loses its identity and itssurroundings.

(16:40):
But the warning for the petparents of tigers is that if
that tiger ever so much as seesthe example of another tiger.
It's over, it's instantly.
There's this ferocious effectthat's unleashed and it wakes up
and it'll turn on you.
And so fast forward, 2006, theAcademy.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
I'm a cub for Christ.
Did you get one or not?
I did not get one.
I was about to ask.

Speaker 4 (17:10):
I did not get one.
No, couldn't afford it and mymother wouldn't let me.
But, here we are.
It's 2006.
I'm a cub for Christ.
I've become very domesticatedas a gospel witness, dangerously
so.
My first gospel outreach teamleader, what I would call my
first equipping evangelist,disciple maker in evangelism,
was a man named Tony.
We all know Tony.

(17:31):
Yeah, of course, tony the Tiger.
Yeah, when I saw Tony the Tigerpray for people, lead teams
into battle, preach in the openair, pass tracts, I had never
seen this before.
What I realized is that's me, Ijust never saw the example.
If pastors, leaders, elderscould wrap their head around

(17:52):
that, what example could you beto your people as a tiger in
evangelism, in marriage, inmissions, in purity, like fight,
like a man?
We need more tigers, trainingtigers, training tigers.
And I think the heart ofdiscipleship follow my example,
as I follow the example ofChrist is be a tiger, see a

(18:14):
tiger.
Be a tiger for someone else,see a tiger in someone else.
That's the heart ofdiscipleship.
And the academy was that?
For me it's like learning todrive.
I mean, we can study a handbook, but that doesn't make one a
skilled driver.
You need a trainer, you needinstruction.
Had I not had example, I wouldhave been just like everybody

(18:36):
else.
I just want to say that just so, so clearly, you guys are
multiplying gospel ministry morethan you probably realize.
Only in glory will we see theoutcomes of this conversation.
Wow, praise the Lord, that'sthe illustration, guys.
I love that we are tigers,training tigers.
We all are.
That's what we do.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
I'm going to be using that, it's so true.
The inspiration that comes fromsomeone else doing it.
I think it awakens in us therealization like, hey, man, I'm
made up of the same stuffthey're made up of, especially
when people share stories.
I've had people share howencouraged they've been by

(19:16):
hearing us share our stories ofweakness, that we still deal
with the fear of man, that we'restill tempted to not evangelize
, and when people realize thatthat it's not like we've
attained some sort of superherostatus and we're fearless, that
gives them the sense like, oh,they're like me, they're doing

(19:37):
it.
What's the element that I needto continue to do it, ray, what
would you say?
That is, what is it?

Speaker 3 (19:45):
to continue to do it.
Ray, what would you say?
That is, what is it?
Well, I was just thinking how,when I got my first V-dub little
beetle, I began to notice themall over the place.
I never saw them before, butonce I had one I thought they're
all over the place.
It's the most popular car thereis.
And once you realize,evangelism is the essence of the
whole New Testament.
That's what it's all about Godgranting everlasting life to
humanity.
People sitting in the essenceof the whole New Testament.

(20:05):
That's what it's all about Godgranting everlasting life to
humanity.
People sitting in the shadow ofdeath that were commanded to
take the gospel and they did.
And you think, how can anyoneread the scripture and not see
it Like me not seeing B-dubsuntil I had one, until I owned
one.
And I think how can pastors gothrough Luke 15 and not come out
the other side saying, wow, youknow the sheep that was lost.

(20:26):
He went out and brought it back.
The woman who lost one coin wasso valuable to her.
She did three things she lit acandle, she swept the house and
she did it diligently.
She lit a candle so she couldsee what she was doing and most
of the churches in the dark whenit comes to evangelism they
don't realize this is what theyshould be doing.

(20:46):
Then she swept the house.
If you want to be used by God.
Sweep your house, get rid ofthe dirt, present your body as a
living sacrifice, holy andacceptable to God, which is your
reasonable service.
And then she searcheddiligently.
And evangelism is something weshould do diligently, 24-7,
because people are going to hell.
It should consume us Alwaysabounding in the work of the

(21:08):
Lord, for your labor is not invain in the Lord.
So I just love what you'redoing and I love the fact that
you see yourself as an equippingevangelist.
I don't know if you've everheard me say it, but we don't
use the word evangelism when wedeal with the church because
it's a dirty word, it's like aroot canal, and I understand why
by relating it back to the factI don't like going door to door
.
The reason for that I'll sharewith you.

(21:29):
I've shared before as a newChristian.
I was about two weeks old.
I knocked on a lady's door and,fear and trembling, I said to
her hello, I'm not a Jehovah'sWitness.
And she said well, I am, andthat's given me a fear of
knocking on doors for the Lord,and so door knocking for me is
what evangelism is like for mostof the church.
They think it's just too scary.
But as an equipping evangelist,you know that you can teach

(21:51):
people to address the conscience.
You don't have to be an expertin apologetics and you can do it
.

Speaker 5 (21:57):
I want to go back a little bit.
When you knocked on that door,what happened next?
Because we've heard that storyseveral times, but I am a
Jehovah's Witness.
What happened next?
She?

Speaker 3 (22:07):
punched me Right in the.
No, I just made that up.
I can't remember.
I think I just said well, thankyou and goodbye and she closed
the door.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
It was so traumatizing.

Speaker 3 (22:14):
Yes, I just went glazed eyes for the next 50
years, you know.

Speaker 2 (22:18):
Corey, I love the fact that you're using a
biblical term, in that you knowEphesians 4, paul says and he
himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some
evangelists, some pastors andteachers for the equipping of
the saints, for the work ofministry.

Speaker 4 (22:35):
Yeah, it surprises folks easy.
There's only three uses of theword evangelist.
Just grab your concordance,look it up.
We have it on our smartphones.
There's three uses and wetypically think of the work of
an evangelist.
That's the phrase Paul shareswith Timothy 2, timothy 4.
Do the work of an evangelist, aChristian sharing the gospel
with a non-Christian?
That's an act of worship andwitness.

(22:57):
We're all on the hook for that,praise God.
It's actually an act of worship.
But Philip the evangelist Acts21, was doing that work with the
Ephesians 4, in the context ofgospel unity, partnership,
leadership alongside shepherdsand teachers is the word
evangelist.
That's a discipleshipconversation to equip the saints

(23:18):
.
We don't see evangelism talkedabout there, we see discipleship
talked about there.
You guys are, to me, the NavySEALs of equipping evangelists.
This is where this one, thistiger, saw the tigers, and we
just need tigers in every churchto equip the saints for this
work.
But, ez, when you said wow,what makes us sort of people
think we're superhuman?

(23:38):
I thought of the Apostle Paul.
I mean, if anyone could haveboasted in his expertise and his
, you know his acumen.
I mean he was the professor ofphilosophy.
When Paul says, when I came toyou, brothers, I did not come
proclaiming to you the testimonyof God with lofty speech or
wisdom.
He could have.
It's Paul, for I decided thiswas a choice he made to know

(24:00):
nothing among you except JesusChrist and him crucified.
And I was with you in weaknessand in fear and in much
trembling, and my speech and mymessage were not implausible
words of wisdom.
They could have been, but why?
For a demonstration of theSpirit and of power, so that
your faith might not rest in thewisdom of men but in the power
of God.
Amen.
This is about being faithful.
And I would just sayillustratively you've just

(24:23):
driven the car more miles on theroad than most other people.
If you would just get behindthe wheel of the car and start
to drive it.
You can't steer a parked car,christian.
You need to start to drive thatcar of gospel witness.
But it helps when you have atrainer.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
We need training.
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (24:40):
I love the way you're putting on display and talking
about the idea of evangelism.
I'm sorry, of discipleship andyou're putting in the context of
evangelism, but I think it's animportant question in total,
because I think that modern dayChristianity has lost a sense of

(25:00):
what actual discipleship is.
I think we've adopted anenlightened view of education
and then imported that into whatit means to disciple.
So an enlightened view ofeducation is formal classroom
based.
You go in for six weeks, youwork for a grade and the
ultimate goal is that youmemorize a couple of answers so
that you can pass a test.
It's information overtransformation Discipleship.

(25:22):
On the other hand, if you lookat the scriptures, it looks more
like an apprenticeship.
Right, you think about like abrain surgeon.
They go to the same school,they get the same education,
they have to pass the test.
But we don't send brainsurgeons out after they have the
information to start slicingbrains open.
Instead, they go under a typeof apprenticeship for years they

(25:45):
walk in other person'sfootsteps, they watch what they
do and over time that personthen stands over the shoulder of
that new doctor and watcheswhat he or she does until
they're ready to be on their own.
That is more what discipleshiplooks like.
When Jesus called people andsaid come, follow me, he was
asking them let me be your rabbi, or I should say he was

(26:09):
commanding them I will be yourrabbi.
And think about that.
I mean, back then, kids wouldgrow up and for the first few
years of their life their goalwas to memorize the first five
books of the Old Testament.
And for the elite, they'd beable to move on until they're
about 15 or 16, they'd memorizethe rest of the Old Testament

(26:29):
and at that point 95% of thepeople would just go off and
they would be carpenters, theywould be farmers, they'd be
fishermen, whatever they weredone with their process.
But for the elite few, the 5%,a rabbi would observe them and
they would walk up to them andthey would say follow me, and

(26:51):
you would take on anapprenticeship with a rabbi and
spend years.
Wherever he would go, you wouldgo.
Wherever he would sleep, youwould sleep.
Wherever he would do work, youwould do work.
So when Jesus calls us, come,follow me, he's calling us into
discipleship.
And I think today, in modernChristianity, what we want is we

(27:14):
want a transaction.
We want to say, jesus, be myLord and Savior.
But then when he says, pick upyour cross and follow me, we're
like, eh, I'd rather you, justyou, do all the work and then
let me, let me go about mybusiness.
And so what you're talkingabout here is discipleship.
As leaders of churches, weshould be bringing people into

(27:34):
our lives, at our dinner tables,in our daily routines, and when
a pastor, an elder, when hisroutine in life is evangelistic
in nature and then he invitesthe members of his church to
witness that, they are going tobecome evangelistic in nature.
Mark, I just had a conversationwith somebody, a young adult,

(27:57):
and they're like man.
Mark is like a father figure tome.
I lived with him for almost ayear.
I go out with them every Friday.
They didn't say to me I learnededucationally from Mark how to
be an evangelist.
They said to me I followed him.
I observed his life in the home, him at the dinner table, him

(28:19):
raising his kids.
I observed him being anevangelist in life and that has
made an impact on my life.
That's the kind of leaders thatwe need to raise up evangelists
, amen.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, and you know Paul said to Timothy therefore,
be an example to the believersin love, speech, conduct, faith,
purity and that word of can betranslated as to as well, and I
think it's interchangeable Be anexample of what a believer
should be and be an example tothe other believers of what they
should be, and be an example tothe other believers of what

(28:52):
they should be right, whetherit's to the world or to other
Christians.
Mark, you've spent a lot oftime with Corey over the course
of the last few days.
I'd love to hear you just talkabout how you have sensed his
example has had an impact onothers and how we can continue
to stir other people Well.

Speaker 5 (29:10):
I was just praying yesterday that boy, I'd love it
if he moved here, right, if hewas part of the team here, or
how would that be?
How would that come about, youknow?
But I love praying things likethat, you know, because you know
, hope deferred it makes theheart sick.
You know, I was praying thesame thing with Eric Hoven.
You know, I was praying thesame thing with Eric Hoven.

(29:30):
I was talking to him throughFaceTime yesterday.
He's just on the front lines,he's just doing it and I love
surrounding myself with peoplethat are just doing it and in
God's wisdom God just says no,I'm reaching over here in these
areas as well, and we don't needthat necessarily here To your
guys' point a lot of timesleadership is more caught than

(29:51):
taught.
Right Paul said imitate me as Iimitate Christ.
And whether we say that or not,it is being spoken.
Our lives are an unspokenlanguage.
Charles Spurgeon, the Baptistpreacher, the prince of
preachers.
He said a man's life is alwaysmore forcible than his speech.

(30:12):
When men take stock of him,they reckon his deeds as dollars
and his words as pennies.
So what we say with our wordsand with our actions is so much
more powerful than what weactually say with our words is

(30:33):
so much more powerful than whatwe actually say with our words,
and so surrounding yourself withpeople that are doing it right
that you can look up to.
That's kind of Corey right.
Corey has grabbed a hold of thatbaton whatever he experienced
back in 2006-ish right and he isrunning his race with endurance
, and every once in a while heneeds to pause, like we all do,
come aside and rest a while andget that adrenaline shot.

(30:56):
And then he goes back to hishometown, to his Jerusalem, and
he's a light in the midst ofthat dark world there, and so we
can't negate that the work thatGod is doing, both through
Coreyrie and through the saintsthroughout the world.
God doesn't want to just reachthis area.
How do we know that?
Because he has planted peoplein other areas.

(31:17):
So let your light so shineamong men that they may see your
good works, and it brings gloryto your Father in heaven, amen.

Speaker 2 (31:24):
Ray, a few times now we've cited Paul in 1
Corinthians 11 and in otherplaces.
Therefore, be imitators of meas I am of Christ.
I'd love you, Ray, to highlighthow Christ was an example to us
in our call to reach the lost.

Speaker 3 (31:40):
Shall I say something ?
I'd like to write a book calledWow, and it's quotes from
Prince of Preachers, becauseI've noticed every time someone
gives this virgin quote, we allgo wow.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
What else can you say when you hear this virgin quote
?

Speaker 1 (31:52):
Because there's no other words for it.

Speaker 3 (31:54):
Jesus is our example and the Son of man has come to
seek and save that which is lost.
Psalm 23 speaks of the shadowof death and it's the favorite
psalm used by Hollywood.
When someone's died, they'llstand around and go hello to
cowboys and they'll read Psalm23.
They'll stand around and gohello to cowboys and they'll
read Psalm 23.
They'll walk through the valleyof the shadow of death.
I fear no evil, thinking thatthat verse has got something to

(32:17):
do with death, when it's theexact opposite.
I walk through the valley of theshadow of death.
If you're in the shadow ofsomething, you're not in the
reality of it, you're just inclose proximity.
If I'm in the shadow of a wall,I'm not in the wall, I'm just
very close to it.
And this life is the shadow ofdeath.
It hovers over us like a greatshadow.

(32:40):
And when Jesus was born, tothem that sat, they're not going
anywhere.
To them that sat in the shadowof death, a light has sprung up.
What a glorious picture ofJesus, the light of the world.
So when we preach Christ, whenwe follow in his steps, we're
preaching light to those thatare in darkness, and we've just
got to say we're the disciples.

(33:00):
We cannot but speak that whichwas seen and heard.
Back to the equippingevangelist thing.
I'm not going to point to awhite tiger, I'm going to point
to sort of a white sheep,because I'm from New Zealand,
where there's a lot of sheep.
We know the old joke how manysheep?
40 million people, sorry, 4million people, and something
like 50 million sheep, althoughthey're not sure of the exact

(33:22):
amount because the guy thatcounts them keeps falling to
sleep.

Speaker 2 (33:25):
How does that still make me laugh?
I just wait for it.
It's so stupid.

Speaker 3 (33:32):
It laugh.
I just wait for it.
It's so stupid it still makesme laugh.
Anyway, in New Zealand we havewhat's called sheep trials and
it's not like OJ Simpson trialswhere we put sheep on trials.
It's when they remember in themovie Babe.
Have you ever seen Babe themovie?
It's just fantastic.

Speaker 1 (33:41):
It's not a true story .
Yeah, it's not.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
All the dogs talking to the sheep and that.

Speaker 3 (33:48):
But that's what it is .
Where sheep are corralled and adog has to get them to go
through a sheep gate, and if youcan get them through the sheep
gate and sheep are really dumbit's just he becomes a hero of
the nation sort of thing.
As the shepherd and I was in apastor's home and we're watching
one of these things.
He goes out for get some orangejuice.
He comes back and I saidthere's a pastor standing there

(34:10):
and these four or five sheepjust not moving.
And I says look at this poorpastor trying to get his flock
involved in evangelism.
One wrong move and he's goingto scatter the sheep.
And the pastor said, well,where's the evangelist?
Suddenly the sheepdog comesrunning through and goes and the
sheep just went straightthrough that sheep gate.

(34:30):
And I says there's theevangelist.
And that's what we're called todo.
We're called to bark at thesheep and I love it when I and
you watch a sheep dog.
These are border collies, sointelligent they can round up
3,000 sheep in about two minutes.
But they love what they do.
They'll run across the backs ofcorralled sheep, run physically
on the backs of sheep.

(34:51):
Some sheep doesn't like.
The dog stamps his feet likethat right in front of the dog.
The dog's not intimidated, hejust goes and the sheep runs and
does what he's told to do.
And that's how I felt when I hadan equipping evangelist
ministry.
The pastor he wants to get hisflock involved in evangelism,
but one wrong move they'll moveto greener pastures, they'll go

(35:11):
to another church where thepastor doesn't make them feel
uncomfortable about theirresponsibility to reach out to
the lost.
So what does he do?
Calls in the equippingevangelist and I would come in
and I would bark at the sheep.
And the reason I could bark atthem is because I didn't care
what they thought of me, becauseI'm going home tomorrow and I
loved everything I was doing.

(35:31):
And so that's the forgottenministry of the equipping
evangelist.
We see evangelists as beinglike Billy Graham with Great
Crusades or whatever.
No, the equipping evangelistshould be used by the local
church to do what the pastordoesn't feel comfortable doing.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
I remember years ago we had a couple guys come to
meet with us here at theministry that had been really
impacted by Living Waters andthey said they were burdened to
start a ministry of influencingchurches to install an
evangelist, that every churchwould have an evangelist.
And again we kind of act Corey,like this wasn't a part of

(36:10):
God's order for the church.
But it is.
And again we typically go inour minds to the evangelist goes
out and evangelizes, that's allhe does, but his primary role
is for the equipping of thesaints for the work of ministry
that we would fulfill the greatcommission.

Speaker 4 (36:24):
Yeah, praise God for the guys that go with the
fistful of tracks to themarketplace and they're on their
own, and I mean we would lovefoot soldiers like that.
But this is a multiplicativerole, this is a disciple making
role.
I loved asking church leadersyou know how many seeds are in
an apple?
About seven seeds, how manyapples are in a seed?

Speaker 3 (36:42):
I mean that just kind of blows your mind.
That's multiplication.
What was that about seven seedsin an apple?

Speaker 4 (36:47):
But seven seeds in an apple.
There is, on average, yeah, Onaverage, and so you apply that
to discipleship anddisciple-making.
Most Christians are beingdisciples, they're just not
making disciples.
We're in a mode of consuming.
To Oscar's point, we're kind ofconsuming information but we're
not seeing transformationbecause we're not discipling
other people that see a tiger bea tiger.

(37:08):
Idea in every category ofChristian life needs to happen.
But I love what you guys aresaying.
Absolutely true.
This is a distinctly differentrole than a labor of the Lord's
harvest, which we need morelabors.
Jesus had the same problem.
We have guys Ask the Lord formore labors, but this is
definitely a role ofdisciple-making in evangelism.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah, Well, you know, this is my concern in the
church, mark, maybe you couldspeak to this a little bit.
It's that it doesn't strike usas odd anymore that churches
don't evangelize proactively.
It'd be like, all of a sudden,a football team, a soccer team,
a baseball team they don't playsoccer or football or baseball

(37:53):
Like how odd would that be.
Like that would that would.
What do you think?
So I remember the thing I did along time ago the fishless
fishermen's club.

Speaker 5 (38:00):
Yeah, exactly reminded me of that.
Right, you know there's asaying evangelize or fossilize.
You know, when you hit a churchand the church is just all
elderly people and they losesight of what is happening
within the youth, your church isgoing to be dead very, very
quickly.
That there should be inside ofevery one of us a desire never

(38:23):
to graduate from the idea thatit is somebody else's
responsibility.
You know there's a saying it'sgotten kind of a bad rap, but if
we were to not take itlegalistically, if not you, then
who, and then who?
And if not now, then when?
Well, when is the acceptabletime to be able to reach out?
You know, I remember I washanging out with a hyper
calvinistic pastor one time andI was freshly born again.

(38:44):
We were, uh, tobogganing down ahill and there were a couple
guys that joined us who were notChristians, and you could tell
just by their language.
And I had said you know,somebody needs to share the
gospel with them.
And I remember just thinking tomyself I don't know if I know
all the right words to be ableto do so and his response was
well, if they're elect, they'regoing to get saved.

(39:04):
Just enjoy the tobogganingright Now.
No Calvinist is going to thinkthat that's biblical.
I think that's right.
That's why I saidhyper-Calvinist in the midst of
that.
But it is always ourresponsibility, as we go to the
highways and the byways and thegutterways, to compel people to
come, to point people to Christ.
It is always the right time tospeak up.

(39:25):
It is always the right time tohave gospel tracks with you.
We think we're going to thegrocery store to pick up some
food, but in reality you'regoing to be a light in the midst
of darkness.
You're going to that departmentstore to pick up a clothing
item a jacket, a sweatshirt, apair of shoes but in reality you
can be slipping gospel tractsinto pockets and leaving the

(39:47):
results to God.
You go inside that restaurant.
You get bad service and wedemand to have good service, but
in reality it's a great time totalk about grace to your server
.
This is the only day that wehave.
Today's the day of salvation.
Today's the day to preparepeople for the last day, because
we don't know when death isgoing to come knocking for any
one of us.
It comes knocking at aninopportune time.

(40:09):
We're planning for tomorrow.
Tomorrow may not come knockingback, so this is the right time.
And when you think about thechurch now, conglomerately at
large, what is theresponsibility?
Yeah, we want to equip thechurch and the people that come
to church to be inspired, tolive better lives, to equip your

(40:31):
kids to be, whatever it may be.
But if you're missing the ideaof evangelism, you're missing
the desire of Christ to seek andsave that which is lost, and so
we can't lose that, we can't.
What is it?
We?
For the sake of the tree, wesee the trees for the forest.

Speaker 3 (40:50):
I don't know.
You can't see the forest forthe trees.

Speaker 5 (40:51):
Whatever?

Speaker 3 (40:52):
Ray yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
I love, mark, I love where you're headed with that,
because evangelism, theexpression of our joy, is the
climax of our joy.
In other words, so often Ithink, so many Christians out
there they have a deadenedexperience of joy over their
salvation because they nevertake the next step in regards to

(41:14):
expressing it.
I've used this example fromPsalm 51 over again, which is
when David says restore to methe joy of your salvation.
Shortly after that, he becomesincredibly evangelistic.
Put a new word in my mouth.
He starts talking aboutreaching Zion.
That all would hear.
And, as I've said before, we areall evangelists in nature.

(41:35):
It is in our nature to expressthe thing that brings us joy.
Everybody's an evangelistintrovert, extrovert, extrovert
If you.
You know, every time you watcha new movie and you get excited
about it.
Every time you go to a newrestaurant, have a great set of
tacos.
Every time you go a new movieand you get excited about it
every time you go to a newrestaurant, have a great set of
tacos every time you go to agreat new A root canal, a root

(41:57):
canal.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
When you have an amazing dentist.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
When you read a great new book, the next thing you do
, no matter your disposition, nomatter who you are, it is in
your nature to tell somebodyabout it and, in that sense, the
full expression of our joy.
When our cup is filled with thejoy of our salvation, the
natural next step we do isexpress it, and I can't help but

(42:24):
wonder how many Christians outthere are stunted in their
spiritual formation becausethey've never expressed the joy
that God has given them.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
You know, Corey, I want you to really kind of
extrapolate on this.
You mentioned earlier the wordworship in connection with
evangelism.
You know when I think ofworship leaders and when I have
prayed for worship leaders.
When I'll be speaking at achurch and we're all praying
together as a group, I'll oftenpray Lord, please help the
worship leader to lead us by theway they worship and then we'll

(42:56):
follow right, and so we'retalking about example.
So how can we be examples inevangelism by way of worship?
What does that mean to worshipthe Lord in evangelism?

Speaker 4 (43:08):
I used to be a worship leader and I heard I
think with Matt Redmond say youshould be the lead worshiper.
I like that, that's good, andso you know.
Words do matter and it'sinteresting when we look at the
first use of the word worship.
It surprises folks where we seethat word first in the whole
Bible.
It's actually Genesis 22, andpeople think what's that about?

(43:30):
Well, it says this Abraham saidto his young men stay here with
the donkey, I and the boy willgo over there and worship and
come again to you.
And the wood they had was notguitar wood.
I mean, this was aboutsacrifice, it was about
obedience.
And that first use reallyconnects, draws a line to the
concept of obedience, worship'sobedience.

(43:52):
We are living sacrifices.
Roman 12 said so to worshipChrist as King.
The primary way we do this withthe life he's given us is
through gospel witness.
Witnesses are worshipers,worshipers are witnesses.
I think of Acts, chapter 1, andyou will be my witnesses.
He is saying obey the commandsof the king.

(44:12):
And so we go.
But it is an act of worship.
Gospel witnesses worship.
I worship Christ in every areaof my life and what I do.
I build my house on the rockand so that what?
When storms come, that house iswisely built, it stands strong.
So gospel witness is reallyapplying scripture to every area
of human existence to the gloryand praise of Christ the King.

(44:34):
That's what we're trying to doand obviously we're in process,
but that's an act of worship,everything we do.
I'm sounding like John Piper atthis point, but it's all about
experiencing the pleasure of Godthrough worship.
And, oscar, I love what yousaid.
When we witness to the glory ofChrist, what a joy, what a
pleasure we experience inobedience.

(44:55):
I mean, that's fruit ofevangelism, it's just the joy of
obedience.
So that's worship, amen.

Speaker 3 (45:02):
And it's such a good feeling when you're obedient.
We've often said when we go toevangelize, you go dragging your
feet, but you come backclicking your heels.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
And you see it with the disciples in the book of
Acts.

Speaker 3 (45:11):
It's always a battle of fear and you come back saying
I did the will of God.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
Yeah, and Ray, you've often said that love needs to
swallow our fears.
Speaking of imitation, thinkabout what Paul said in
Ephesians 5.1, therefore, beimitators of God as dear
children, and walk in love, asChrist also has loved us and
given himself for us, anoffering and a sacrifice to God,
for a sweet-smelling aroma.

(45:37):
I mean.
He's tying imitation of Godwith what Jesus did, and that
was love and that was giving.
Ray, wouldn't you say that thatcoincides with what evangelism
is?
You're sacrificing, you don'tenjoy it, you don't like it.

Speaker 3 (45:51):
Another word for evangelism is love.
And we've often said if you sawa child drown or drowning, you
wouldn't stand there and saythis is the water's too cold,
I've got other things to do,I've got other priorities.
No, no, you care about that kid.
Because love cannot watch achild drown, especially when you
can save them.
And so when we look at the lost, we've got to say with the

(46:11):
disciples, we cannot but speakthat which was seen and heard
and we let our fears hold usback.
Part of the equippingevangelists.
What we do is teach people howto reduce that fear, how to
bring it into proportion,because it's overwhelming, it's
a Goliath but it can be madeinto a Zacchaeus with just a
couple of simple principles.
If you're pushed into the heatof modern warfare armed with a
feather duster or a featherduster, you're not going to be

(46:34):
very courageous.
But if we give you stated outweapons, those weapons will give
you courage.
And that law which addresses theconscience is the greatest
auxiliary.
Spurgeon said it's our greatestweapon because it stirs the
conscience.
It brings that Lazarus out ofthe grave.
It makes the conscience comealive so that it agrees with the
commandments.
We teach people don't stay inthe intellect too long, because

(46:56):
apologetics will just stir upenmity.
Counter-mine is enmity againstGod.
It's not subject to the law ofGod, neither indeed can be.
But use the law to address theconscience and you'll find
everything changes.
But use the law to address theconscience and you'll find
everything changes.
You'll have someone who wasdisagreeing two minutes ago
nodding their head unconsciouslybecause they know what you're
saying is true.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
Side note I've served in children's ministry.
There's a few kids I'd behesitant to jump in the water
for we all know those children.

Speaker 2 (47:24):
You know, corey, I've often said that the word
witness is not just a verb, it'salso a noun.
That's true.
We don't just witness.
Each of us is a witness, is awitness.
So speak to that because,tragically, I've seen people who
are so into evangelism, so intoapologetics, that they

(47:49):
neglected the inner man, theyneglected the inner life, they
neglected walking upright, theyneglected the presence of the
Lord and then almost evangelismbecame an idol.
That can happen.
How do we guard against that?

Speaker 4 (48:04):
Yeah, it's interesting.
When we think of the wordwitness, the first context that
my mind goes to is a courtroom,and we think we call witnesses
to the stand, and there's expertwitnesses, there's special
witnesses, and what do bothlawyers try to do?
Well, the one who's againstthat witness tries to discredit
that person, their credibility,their character.
And Lord, help us if our wordsor if our talk does not match

(48:30):
our walk as Christians.
To your point, ez, we can thinkof, probably, sadly, a long
list of people we've preachedthe gospel with in the open air,
we went to the front line ofbattle with, who are now so
offside with Christians andchurches, and they're judgmental
, and they're, it's just.
It's an affront to the unity ofthe spirit and the bond of

(48:53):
peace that we're commanded toeagerly maintain.
Right, so, but I do, I do agreethat we have to, we have to
abide always, and it's all aboutthat.
It's all about persevering inprayer.
It's all about being an example, not not just an evangelism,
about being an example, not justan evangelism.
If my theology of evangelism isit's the overflow of my life in
Christ, my evangelism isactually my verbalization of my

(49:15):
worship and witness andeverything, then that should be
everything that I am From myheart.
I should be a whole lifewitness.
I shouldn't be able to beattacked on that stand by the
enemy for my credibility and mycharacter.
There should be a consistencybetween my walk and my talk in
every category of life, as ahusband, as a father, as a

(49:36):
servant at church, as aworkplace missionary.
This is why I think Paul is sodetermined to say slaves, obey
your earthly masters, yourgospel witness.
That's part of that.
There, masters, treat yourslaves justly, all those things.
But I love what Ray was saying.
I think what we neglect is thecomputer program running in the

(49:56):
background of the whole NewTestament is the Great
Commission.
Even when Paul writes aboutother things, the assumption is
all of these things contributeto our gospel witness.
That's why we're here.
John MacArthur says if thatwasn't the goal we'd be there.
That's the goal.
And so it's amazing how we kindof major in the minors.
I'm not saying marriage isn't amajor because it is a major.

(50:17):
The first picture of Christ inthe gospel is one man, one woman
.
That's what Paul says inEphesians 5.
But we have to remember thatall of these teachings are atop
the foundation of the GreatCommission and Gospel Witness.
Everything we read, it startsthere.
That's the basis for marriage,that's the basis for parenting.

(50:40):
That is that we are witnesses.
We are people who are beingwatched by an unbelieving world,
so that when I speak the wordsof Jesus Christ, does it make
sense to them?
Are they saying you?
That's a terrible reaction.
When I announce to someone I'ma Christian, you're a Christian.
That's not what we want to hear.
We want to hear oh, that makessense.

(51:00):
Why does it make sense?
Because my, what did one guysay?
Your life in Christ is the Johnthe Baptist of your verbal
witness.

Speaker 1 (51:09):
Right, it's true, it clears the way it reminds me of
the spies in the Old Testament,in the sense that, you know,
aaron sends out these spies intothis future promised land and
they come back as heralds.
They come back with fruit andhoney and they say, hey, they're
basically telling them this iswhat God has for us.

(51:31):
We have seen our futureparadise.
We are heralds, we are spies.
We have seen the future.
We know God's kingdom is comingand he is sending us back with
fruit and honey.
That fruit and honey is thegospel that's so good.

Speaker 4 (51:47):
Wow, yeah, maybe the first herald, like ray's uh
gospel presentation at the arkencounter.
I mean, what a what anopportunity to bring, to bring
that truth of the one door ofjesus christ, the ark of our
salvation.
But noah was a herald ofrighteousness, right, he was
preaching warning of thejudgment to come, and we are

(52:08):
heralds, absolutely true.
So let's preach it while westill can.

Speaker 2 (52:12):
Yeah, yeah.
And Mark, wouldn't you say thatthe biggest catalyst to why we
should be excited aboutevangelism is because we
ourselves are byproducts of thegospel.
I mean, when people have aproduct that they want to sell,

(52:33):
they get extremely excited.
When they find someone who says, man, that worked for me.
What's the first question?
Oh, would you give me atestimonial?
Could you come on my video andbe part of this infomercial?
Because those that are mostenthused are those that were
most enthused, are those thatwere most impacted, and we're
not hawking Ginsu knives outthere, some product we're
disconnected from.

Speaker 1 (52:54):
Yeah, well you are.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
They're pretty good Knife salesmen Right Mark, we're
byproducts of the gospel.

Speaker 5 (53:00):
We are.
You know it's been said thatevangelism is the only pyramid
scheme where everybody winsright.
So you know we've said beforeCarl Sagan, you know that great
pagan of a man.
He said when you're in love,you want to tell the world.
When you're in love withsomething or someone, you want
everybody to know.
Maybe you're not telling peoplebecause maybe you're not in

(53:23):
love as much as you say you areor that you claim that you are.
Jesus didn't say go into all theworld and be quiet.
We are to open up our mouths.
It's the right thing to do.
It's not just your duty to do,but it makes sense to do.
And this is where a good litmustest takes place.
If you are not sharing thegospel with others, if you are

(53:48):
not opening up your mouth as youought, in the midst of a
situation where they need tohear, you need to examine
yourself.
Examine yourself to see ifindeed you are in the faith Paul
Washer said.
Are you saying that a lot ofpeople in the pulpits are not
saved because they're notsharing the faith?
I think a lot of people behindthe pulpit are not saved.

(54:09):
There's something eye-openingto that.
Right, because we will multiply.
You don't see an orange treebeing frustrated because it's
not producing oranges.
It's a natural byproduct.
It must produce oranges, and ifit's producing apples or some
other fruit, well then it's notan orange tree.

(54:29):
So you can tell what kind of atree it is by what it produces.
So if you desire to saturateyourself with the things of the
world, you have more of a desireto do the things that look more
like the world.
Listen, there's a very goodchance that you are of the world

(54:50):
if you desire to watch moviesand play games, because this is
not a game, this is not aplayground, it's a battleground,
and we need to have our eyesopen to the reality that
christians share the gospel.
That's what they do, and if youcan't articulate the gospel,
how do you know you're saved?

Speaker 2 (55:08):
yeah, that's good mark.
Yeah, cory, you have your bibleopen to a certain spot, like
you want to read something.

Speaker 4 (55:14):
Yeah, I mean, um, people do struggle with fear, we
all do.
But knowing, therefore, knowingthe fear of the lord, we
persuade others.
I mean, when we fear god first,life sort of makes sense, right
, Obviously.
One preacher said we serve whoor what we fear most.
That's heavy man, because ifI'm serving the things of the

(55:37):
world, am I fearing I'm notpopular what is going on there?
But when I fear the Lord andthat is a fear it's beyond just
yeah, he's God and I'm not God.
No, there's a fear.
Noah Hebrews says, in holy fear, in reverent fear, built an ark
and condemned the world.
That's what it says.
That phobon is a fear.

(55:58):
Do I fear that?
Face-to-face with my creator, Imean, I will give account for
deeds done in the body, whethergood or evil.
I mean I really think we haveto live in light of eternity
here and life just makes a lotmore sense that way.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
Yeah, yeah.
And Ray, to those who say youknow, I just don't have what it
takes to do what you guys do,that's just, it's just, I just
can't do it.
What do you say to them?
How do you inspire them?

Speaker 3 (56:28):
I'd say that's terrific, because you've just
qualified yourself to be awitness of Christ, because God
doesn't want your ability, hewants your availability, as
someone once said.
I love what Corey was sayingabout being a witness.
When you're a witness in atrial, the judge doesn't want
eloquence from you.
He doesn't want you to stand upand say I witnessed this
robbery.

(56:48):
It was a dark and lonely night.
The wind was blowing from theeast the trees?
No, he doesn't.
He says knock it off, tell mewhat you saw and heard.
And that's what we're called todo as Christians to be
witnesses of Christ.
He doesn't want our floweryspeech and the thing is, maybe
someone's listening to you andyou're feeling guilty that
you're not evangelizing.
That's good, because guiltdrives me to reach out to the

(57:11):
lost.
And the same way as if I hadloaves of bread in my arms and
there were kids lying on theground dying and I had the bread
, I should feel guilty.
And we've got the bread of lifeand all around us people are
dying.
So my guilt motivates me.
So often it comes from joy andwanting to reach the lost.
But my guilt helps me overcomemy fears.
I've got to do this because Icare about the ungodly.

(57:33):
And Paul shows his burden forthe lost in Philippians 1.
Some preach Christ out ofcontention, insincerely
supposing to add affliction.
They were hypocrites, but hesays nevertheless I rejoice that
Christ is preached, that breadis still being given, and so let
guilt drive you, let theequipping evangelist help you to

(57:56):
deal with your fears.
You know that we're all fearful, but we do it anyway.
We're like firefighters who seesome woman up on the fifth
story.
You have to climb a 60-footladder.
You're terrified, but you do itbecause you're not thinking of
yourself.
You're thinking of that womanand her terrible fate.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
Wow, corey, our greatest calling, our most
really primary calling asexamples is within the realm of
our home, examples to our kids,example to the next generation
that we're tasked withdiscipling and bringing up in
the ways of the Lord, to bringit up in the training and
admonition of the Lord.
And oftentimes example in anegative sense deters a lot of
parents from doing certainthings Well.
I don't want to do that, becauseif my kids see me doing that,

(58:43):
what are they going to do?
But in a positive sense.
When our kids see usproclaiming the gospel, how much
of an impact can that have?

Speaker 4 (58:52):
It's so true, something that just an insight
that I believe the Lord gave mebeing here at Living Waters this
few days, is with our ownministry.
I'm just so encouraged by howmany of your children are
co-laboring for Christ righthere.
To me that's legacy buildingand that's multi-generational
faithfulness, and that onlyhappens when we're faithful

(59:12):
around the supper table.
That's where the gospel has tostart.
And I can remember I wasinvited into a sort of a
staunchly reformed men'sconference to teach and I taught
well, basically the gospel andtrue and false conversion, the
two sides of the same coin, theone-two punch.
And it was example, example,example.

(59:34):
And I remember there was sortof this confession time where
one of these big Dutch I'm asmall Irishman, these guys were
huge big Dutch guy stands up andhe comes to this realization
well, you keep saying to meexplain the gospel like I'm a
child and I can't do that.
So clearly I'm not teaching myown children Exactly what he
said.
We just punt them up the roadto the Christian school.
We don't ever do that.

(59:54):
Generation upon generation,zero, family, worship,
discipleship, none.
And then another guy stood up.
It was like repentance time andthe thought occurred to me that
if we would just start at home.
Let's equip our children tounderstand the gospel, by which,
yes, paul says that we weresaved, but we're being saved.

(01:00:15):
The gospel initially justifiesit doesn't stop there
Continually sanctifies.
It doesn't stop there,eventually glorifies.
It takes us all the way home.
Are we modeling that gospel toour kids?
One thing we did a huge win.
We've had major strikeouts asparents I mean my wife's here.
She'll say amen to that.
We were not raised in Christianhomes.
We're first-generationChristians.

(01:00:36):
But we can remember addressing,say, a homeless person on a
street corner and equipping ourchildren to meet someone who's
made in God's image with dignityand shaking their hand, getting
their name, sharing the gospel,sowing the seed.
And one particular story thatstands out easy.
We had met this one man my sonwas probably six at the time,

(01:00:59):
younger son Caleb, and thisman's name was Patrick, and so
we shared the gospel, we boughthim some food and went home.
Six months later my son says wehave to pray for Patrick, and
I'm like who in the world isPatrick?

Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
I don't even know the Patrick.

Speaker 4 (01:01:13):
And he thought my heart rolled out of my chest.
Dad's lost his mind.
Patrick was that man you sharedJesus with.
He's seven years old at thispoint.
He didn't mention the sermon Ipreached.
I was a pastor.
He didn't mention any sermon Ipreached.
He didn't mention some slickevangelism seminar.
He mentioned the contact ofJesus Christ through a jar of

(01:01:36):
clay, the gospel light shiningto this man who was dying and
going to hell.
That's what he remembered.
Why?
Because that's when the gospelmakes impact.
If parents would just get thatmuch about example to your point
, every church would changeacross North America and the
world.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
Amen, it's true, so true.

Speaker 4 (01:01:55):
Yeah, it's true Right .

Speaker 3 (01:01:56):
Yeah.
So I've got something I'd liketo suggest to those who are
listening who haven'tevangelized.
Here's something you can do Geta soapbox and go to the local
university and preach the gospelto all those atheists.
It might be a little difficult.
So how about getting the gospelon Kariwani Neighbors and share
it with them?
Well, that's kind of terrifying.
So how about just getting agospel tract, taking it out and

(01:02:18):
giving it to somebody?

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
Amen.

Speaker 3 (01:02:21):
Because that's how I bring things.
When I fast a meal here andthere, I think God could tell me
to fast 40 days and 40 nights,but I'm just being told to
discipline myself.
It brings it down.
It's not so hard for me when Ithink of it in that way.
So you don't have to go to alocal university, you don't have
to go to your neighbors, justget some tracts and start
dropping them around and say tosomeone do you get one of these?

(01:02:41):
It's got a gospel message on theback.
Make sure you read it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
Amen.
And I love how, mark, you'vealways, throughout the years,
talked about goals.
You know, set goals, don't letthem be unrealistic.
Start small and then build fromthere, you know.
So that's so important.
And, corey, what a delight thishas been.
Brother, thank you so much.
Honestly, we could have goneanother hour just talking more
and diving deeper, but we wantpeople to connect with you.

(01:03:05):
Sure, friends, you've heardCorey.
I know you've been encouragedby him, inspired by him.
I was so blessed years ago, infact, during COVID, I was
invited to go out to Canada,couldn't make it and I sent you
instead.
I recommended you, and thosepeople were so blessed.
So I know you travel, you speak, you equip people.
How can people connect with youin your ministry?

Speaker 4 (01:03:23):
Yeah, the ministry sort of the main page is
thecrosscurrentcom.
That's our main site and youcan connect with equipping
evangelists through thatministry or through that
ministry page and we have allkinds of ways that we can equip
churches by example to what wecall normalize, sharing the
gospel in personal and communityrelationships.
That's the goal of the ministry.

Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
Amen.
Well, brother, it's been adelight to have you Friends.
I'm going to end it on thatnote.
You know all the good stuff.
Thank you for joining us,friends.
We'll see you here next time onthe Living Waters podcast,
where all of us, except forCorey, have no idea what we're
doing.