Ep. 339 - The Importance of Good, Clear Doctrine

Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar dive into the importance of doctrine in the Christian life, challenging the idea that doctrine is cold or unnecessary. They emphasize that doctrine isn’t exclusive to Christianity—everyone has a belief system, even atheists. As soon as you begin to answer questions about who Jesus is, you’re entering doctrinal territory. Christians are called to meditate on the Word of God because without sound doctrine, it's easy to believe a lie. The guys talk about how many believers avoid doctrine due to a misunderstanding of the gospel. When you understand the gospel as adoption into God’s family, gratitude drives you to know your Savior more. 

There’s no divide between deep love for God and sound theology. Doctrine is rooted in theology, which is the knowledge of God—and you can’t love someone you don’t know. Each truth learned about God is another reason to love Him. Mark reminds us that good doctrine leads to doxology—right worship. The way you live spiritually and physically will catch up with you, and without sound doctrine, decisions lack a foundation. Discernment is knowing the difference between right and almost right, which can be the difference between truth and deception. As Ray mentions, a sign of the end times is people turning from sound doctrine to what suits their desires, following prosperity preachers who don’t teach the true gospel.

Church history also reminds us of the weight of doctrine—people have died for it. While unity is important, the truth should never be sacrificed. Unsound doctrine often stems from a lack of seriousness about sin. The guys discuss how peace should be pursued where possible, but not at the expense of truth. Essential doctrines—like the authority of Scripture, the nature of God, the Trinity, the person and work of Jesus, salvation, the Holy Spirit, the church, and Christ’s return—are non-negotiable. Secondary issues, though important, are not hills to die on.

The group also warns against extremes—those who read only the Bible and reject all theological resources, and those who rely solely on commentaries without reading Scripture. Doctrine should be both understood and lived out. Truths like the doctrine of creation remind us we are made in God’s image, and eschatology offers comfort in a chaotic world. When confronting false doctrine, we must do so with humility, remembering Philippians 2 and esteeming others higher than ourselves. Doctrine isn’t just information—it’s transformation, guiding how we live, worship, and walk with Christ daily.

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Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Think of what 2 John 9-11 says.
9-11 says Whoever transgressesand does not abide in the
doctrine of Christ does not haveGod.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Powerful.

Speaker 1 (00:10):
He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the
Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you and doesnot bring this doctrine, do not
receive him into your house norgreet him, for he who greets
him shares in his evil deeds.
I mean, again, this is explicitFor those of you who say ah,
doctrine whatever.
Again, this is explicit.
For those of you who say ah,doctrine, whatever, you need to
get in the word and look at whatthe word says about doctrine.
Accents are weird and I thinkpeople who use accents are

(00:39):
always faking it, oscar.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
You have an accent.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
Listen, I think that anyone who puts their mind to it
can fully speak in a normal way.
And what is normal way ofspeaking?
Of course, the way that I speak.
Of course, we all know that tobe the truth.
Um, so what was that?
Your comfort?
Okay so we're gonna go to to my, my friend here, and and ask a

(01:02):
few things.
Here we go.
Hey, mark, watch it, mark.
Okay, here we go.
Say this in a New Zealand hey,what's going on here?

Speaker 3 (01:11):
we go.
Anybody surprised?

Speaker 1 (01:13):
Say this in a New Zealand accent when everything
is breaking and everyone's leftaching, then there is no
mistaking Ray Comfort's in town.
Oh oh oh, it's doing its thingThinking.
That's not what I said.

(01:36):
I tested it yesterday.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Do you want to start again?
We?

Speaker 4 (01:42):
should start a podcast called.
When Boomers Get AI.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
Am I a boomer now?
No, don't tell me I'm a boomer.
Okay, let me try it again.
Say this in a New Zealandaccent when everything is
breaking and everyone's leftaching, then there is no
mistaking Ray Comfort's in town.
Oh oh oh.
Left aching, then there is nomistaking Ray Comfort's in town,
oh, oh, oh.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
I think we better stop this podcast again.
No.

Speaker 4 (02:12):
Oh yes.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
I'm firing her.

Speaker 3 (02:18):
Whatever I'm firing her.
That was a good one it was whatdo you think about starting a
podcast over?
I think about it like everyother time we do.
This is one of those times Itested it.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
It was the most glorious thing.
I have to do it another time,oh well, anyway, let's get back
to the more important topic umchicken skin jackets oh yeah, I
had I had the idea.

Speaker 4 (02:40):
Oscar's dark mind.
No, I think it's genius.
You're wearing a cow-skinnedjacket.
Why are there?

Speaker 1 (02:46):
some things that we just eat cows.
Why not dogs and cats?

Speaker 4 (02:52):
That's terrible.
You've never had puppymeatballs.

Speaker 3 (02:56):
Wasn't there a restaurant, the Chinese
restaurant, closed down.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
Mings.
They serve cat.

Speaker 4 (03:01):
I've told you that story.
We had this very interestingcharacter walk into the office
one day and invite us to lunchand he was like we gotta go to
mings.
It was my favorite here near,yeah it's down the street and he
goes.
It's my favorite place, he goes.
Uh, yeah, they used to get,they used to serve cat until
they got caught.
I was like wait, what what's?

Speaker 2 (03:20):
it called mings and it was originally called Meow's.

Speaker 3 (03:23):
Oh, great, I see a lawsuit coming yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
But, ray, seriously, why did you make leather jackets
?
This is true?

Speaker 1 (03:35):
Why not?
Why did you make them for men?
I just wanted to do it.
No, seriously, take us back tothat, because I want to get the
history straight.
You saw a fringe leather jacket.
Was it in a store?
No, no, no.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
okay, that's the story, right there was a guy who
was a really good surfer that Ilooked up to.
I look up to a lot of peopleand this guy was wearing
everybody.
He was wearing a um, a cowboyjacket, fringe jacket and he
looked very, very cool.
So I thought I'd like to makeone of those.
So I got some leather and Imade one, not realizing that was
in my blood to do so because mygrandfather used to make one of
those.
So I got some leather and Imade one, not realizing that was
in my blood to do so, becausemy grandfather used to make

(04:07):
leather shoes and my othergrandfather on the other side
used to make dresses really.

Speaker 4 (04:12):
So I make leather dresses for men how often did
you sew your own finger to thejacket?

Speaker 2 (04:18):
no, I didn't, but I did.
I did cut my finger a lot.
Anyway, I made five of thembecause I couldn't stop.
But you.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
So you see this jacket and you get it in your
head I'm gonna make a jacket,yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
So you went somewhere , bought yeah to a leather store
where they have leather jack,where they sell leather, and I
got a pattern just cut up ajacket, made a jacket, cut the
fringes and put it together andI so enjoyed doing it.
I made four more so I did.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
Did you sew it in your log cabin or was this like
no In your log cabin?

Speaker 2 (04:50):
No, I had a sewing machine.
I don't know where I got it.
I think one of my aunts gave itto me, and so I made another
four and hung them in my bedroom.
They just looked cool.
I don't know why I had fivejackets, but one day I just
looked up a car full of surferscome up our driveway and they
bought them all for me.
So I opened a store for us on asaturday.

(05:10):
I found an empty store.
I opened it up and put it fullof jackets but after you made a
bunch more.
It wasn't just after those five,yeah, and they all sold that on
that saturday, and so I openedup no no, but that's my question
.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah, you didn't just make five and then just said I,
I'm going to open a store.
You kept making more and thenyou thought down the line it
opened a store.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah, I opened a store just for a Saturday
morning I went to a guy whoowned this very small store
opposite the beach.
It was just tiny.
I've got to tell you whathappened.
He was cutting up pies becausehe sold pies and while he was
talking to me, he was cleaninghis fingernails with a knife.

Speaker 1 (05:42):
He was using to cut the pies I've never forgotten,
I've never forgotten that it wasjust no, it is, I was just
disgusted.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
Anyway, for a ten dollars, he let me have it for
the day, just for for the day.
And that's how I experimentedto see if the leather stuff
would sell mark, and when it's,when it's sold, don't do that
mark, and when it's sold, um,then open a store permanently in
our, in our town wait.

Speaker 3 (06:02):
so did you have multiple leather jackets already
created that are on the shelves?
Yes, you did.
Yeah, what was the name of yourjackets?

Speaker 2 (06:11):
It was called Leather Gear.
It was the name of the storeand I made them in different
colors and it took me an hourand three quarters to make one
from start to finish.
No way, that seems quick.
I used to make it to order forpeople.
They come back in an hour andthree quarters and I have it
ready for them.

Speaker 3 (06:24):
How was the markup?

Speaker 2 (06:25):
About $40, which was a lot then.
I sold it for $45 and theleather cost me about $7.

Speaker 4 (06:33):
I've been begging you to make me a leather jacket and
you're telling me it'll onlytake you an hour and a half and
you won't do it An hour andthree quarters.
He made one for Richard.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
Dawkins, he didn't want it, I'll take it it wasn't.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
Was it nice?
Yes, it was here's how this allhappened really, because I
mocked Ray and said he had nevermade a leather jacket in his
life and that's the way to get.
Ray to do anything, tell me hehasn't or can't do something,
and he made one and I have tosay I was thoroughly impressed.
One of our staff members didMike?

Speaker 2 (07:02):
I made one for Mike and he went on his motorbike and
we filmed him riding along onhis motorbike.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
I was pleasantly surprised.

Speaker 3 (07:09):
Ray did something good.
Why does Ray not like you,Oscar?
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (07:11):
He takes my jackets, but he won't give me one.
It comes easy.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
So, you decided to reap what you decided to sow Ray
.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
That's right.
Anyway, it was very lucrative.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, leather jackets .
Today, friends, we have with usin the studio special guests,
audra and Joseph, friends ofJohn, our cameraman.
Let's welcome them.
Welcome, guys.

Speaker 4 (07:34):
I think that's John's first time getting named on the
podcast.
That's pretty impressive.
You're official now.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
Has a friend named Easy from Lebanon.
All right, friends, time for acool, classy comment.
I love it when we get physicalstuff, because we get a lot of
stuff emailed to us atpodcastlivingwaterscom Cars and
helicopters and space rockets.
What Oscar?
There's cartoons involved.
Yeah, let's see what we havehere, dear Living Waters family,
my name is Madison and I'mwriting to you from Savannah

(08:02):
Georgia.
One night, my three-year-oldson and I were drawing St
Patrick's Day chicks when we gotinspired to turn them St
Patrick's Day chicks.
I don't know when we gotinspired to turn them into the
four of you.
Ray says did you get one ofthese, easy says hello friends.
Mark is holding a hot dog infront of a winter schnitzel and

(08:22):
Oscar is in front of a coffeeshop.
Your ministry has meant so muchto my family and I.
God, use your videos to save me.
Wow, before I found LivingWaters, I did not see my sin as
exceedingly sinful.
I grew up in the church but hadno idea what any of it meant.
By the grace of God, I can restin the finished work of Christ
instead of attempting to rely onmy own goodness.

(08:42):
Thank you for being faithfulservants for Jesus Christ and
equipping other Christians to dothe same.
May God bless you and keep youand your beautiful families.
Finish the race and keep thefaith.
Love Madison, jonathan, eli andNoah.
Check this out.
I noticed there were St PatrickDay's chicks.
Hello friends.
And did you get one of these?

Speaker 2 (09:02):
These are cartoons they have colored in by the kids
.
Yeah, look at that, look atthat I can never color and I
always go over the lines.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
Beautiful, oh, oscar coffee and then mark spence.
Oh, thank you guys so much.
I can't put into words how muchthese mean to us, so as you
throw them away yeah, no, oscar,I cherish All right time for a
cool, no, I just did a coolclassic comment oh, shout out,

(09:30):
shout out.

Speaker 3 (09:31):
I almost forgot the shout out, shout out, we'll be
shouting.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
So this is a shout out to some dear, dear folks.
You guys know I did a Racheland I did a marriage conference
for Matt Shackelford's church,Central in Tennessee.
So a shout out to Wayne andHolly and Mo and Amelia and
their daughter Joy.
Such neat people, big fans ofthe podcast, and that was great
to meet you guys.

(09:53):
So big shout out they survived,yeah, they survived.
The Arab cherub, you guys likethat tune Never, ever.

Speaker 3 (10:02):
I think it's a miracle if anyone's listening
after an opening like today.

Speaker 2 (10:06):
I'm just amazed.
That was a beautiful opening.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
We peaked on Tuesday too, but I will redeem myself
because Tuesday was great.
Yeah, we got downhill from nowon the dust was good on these,
I'll redeem myself.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
Nobody has a clue what you're talking about.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
And now a radically revolutionary resource.
This podcast is brought to youby ooh Ray's.
Gonna like this.
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Speaker 2 (10:28):
Tell us about it.
Ray, it's a new treasure, chestTreasure, treasure, chest
Treasure With 500 coins in them.
Beautiful chest, don't spinthem all in one spot.
Well, I decided to enlarge mychest by doing push-ups.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
Spinning the chest.
Yes, I love it.
Anytime Ray sees a guy big buffguy, he's always estimating the
size it's a 53.
, 53 inch chest 53 inch chestBecause they used to make
jackets.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
That's why I do that, just for men.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
Ray, tell us about the Deluxe Treasure Chest.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, 500 coins.
Well, the other one, what's itcalled?
The ordinary one, the TreasureChest.
The treasure chest, standardtreasure chest, it's got 300
coins in it.
This one's got 500 coins, whichmeans there's 200 more coins.

Speaker 4 (11:08):
That checks out guys.
He's a mathematician too.
Let me ask AI to make surethat's accurate.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
So we're very excited about it and it's getting
people using the Ten Commandmentcoins.
I have never, ever seen anyonerip up one of those Ten
Commandment coins, they read it.
They take it.
I Ever seen anyone rip up oneof those Ten Commandments.

Speaker 4 (11:25):
They read it, they take it.
I'll say the Ten Commandmentscoins, I think, is one of the
easiest ways to get your kidsinvolved in evangelism.
My kids love handing thosethings out Because it's
perceived value.
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
Seriously, though, but to get a gospel message on a
little coin plus the TenCommandments on the other side
and they're edible, Really cool.
No, please don't try this athome.
You're going to get a suit,Mark yeah.
So check it out.
Friends, Don't forget theLiving Waters mug, the Evidence
Study Bible, Living Waters TV.

(11:55):
Oh, all that Living Waters.

Speaker 2 (11:57):
And don't forget the podcast.

Speaker 1 (12:00):
I'm sorry.
Livingwaterscom.
And don't forget the podcastYouTube channel, friends, where
we take clips Video clips ofsignificant Segments of the
podcast and then put them up.
It's gaining traction.
Thousands of subscribers Jointhe crowd.
Alright, friends, today we'retalking about the importance Of

(12:25):
good, clear Doctrine.
All right, friends, today we'retalking about the importance of
good, clear doctrine.
Yeah, who thought this one up?
So how do you?

Speaker 2 (12:32):
think up things, because I was thinking this
morning we should do one on thedeath penalty.
Okay, because that's becomingcurrent at the moment.

Speaker 4 (12:39):
That is a good one.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
Because that guy who shot the CEO of the insurance
company in the back.

Speaker 4 (12:44):
Oh yeah, they're asking for it.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
They're asking for the death penalty.
So I went to Low College thismorning and asked the guy do you
believe he should be put todeath for killing a guy?
And he says, well, the rates ofthe insurance company were very
high.
I'm serious.
And he was trying to justifyshooting a guy in the back.
I said just change insurancecompanies, don't kill the CEO.
So I think it'd be aninteresting podcast to do That'd

(13:07):
be good.

Speaker 4 (13:07):
I am sending myself a message so you don't forget the
way I thought of this one,honestly, was just a
conversation I was having withsomebody, a relatively new
Christian, and they positionedthe idea that, like doctrine or
dogma is a negative term, it'snot important Like theology.
Yeah, theology is not importantand the important like
theologist.
Yeah, theology is not importantand the the point that I made

(13:28):
to that person in theconversation is that it's it's
impossible to live withoutdoctrine.
As a matter of fact, thisstatement doctrine is not
important is itself a doctrine.
Yeah, and doctrine, for thatmatter, is not just unique to
religion, faith or christianity.
As a matter of fact, youraverage atheist, non-believer,
you know, know person walkingdown the street, your neighbor
who never goes to church, theyhave doctrines, they have creeds

(13:50):
.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
We'll break up the word doctrine.
Doc, you're in.

Speaker 4 (13:54):
Yeah, exactly.
But I mean, listen to thesesecular creeds.
These are secular creeds thatculture believes in, like
doctrine.
Black lives matter, love islove.
Gay rights movement is the newcivil rights movement.
Women's rights are human rights.
Transgender women are women.
Listen to those statements.
Those are doctrines and ifyou're having a conversation

(14:14):
with a secular person and youdisagree, it's like you're a
heretic to cultural doctrine.
Right, and it's also.
You know there's unintentionalcreeds and doctrines in churches
.
Again, christians will say well, you don't need to teach
doctrine, just preach Jesus.
The problem with that statementis that you have to answer the
question who's Jesus and whatdid he do?

(14:36):
And as soon as you startanswering those questions now
you're into doctrine.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
And so for the Christian doctrine is not an
option.

Speaker 4 (14:45):
The only question is do you have clear doctrine?
Because you've already got itfor sure.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
Oh, and good clear doctrine.
Because you could have cleardoctrine.
We shouldn't make that thetopic of this.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
That's good.
CS Lewis said that everybody isa theologian, just most people
are bad theologians.
So we all have, when we thinkof theologians, theos, god, we
all have this study, thisknowledge of God.
Now, where do you get yourinformation from?
If you do not get yourinformation from the Bible, well
then it's going to be faulty,and then your life is going to

(15:17):
be faulty.
And what is the saying?
So the Word of God is truth.
We're sanctified by His truthand if you're not meditating on
God's Word as truth, you'regoing to believe lies are true
and you're going to be dogmaticin your doctrine concerning that
truth, which is actually a lie.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
Yeah, you know, there's a weird sort of dynamic
that I've come across withinChristianity, and it's this
aversion to doctrine.
I mean, we've heard peoplearticulate it in this way even
oh man, you don't need to getinto doctrine, I just want to
love God, right?
I mean, it's this mindset thatthere's some sort of divide

(15:52):
between doctrine and like aspiritual, vibrant, passionate
life.
Sadly, I think, a lot of timespeople have a zeal, without
knowledge, when it comes to eventhe pursuit of the Lord.
How much more truly deep andvibrant will your pursuit of the

(16:13):
Lord be when it's backed up byreal truth, you know?
And so I think it's importantthat we understand what's meant
by doctrine.
I mean, the simple definitionis a belief or set of beliefs
held and taught by a church,political party or other group,
and I'm glad you highlightedthat, oscar.
Everybody has doctrine, and sothat's the key it's to get

(16:36):
Christians to find that rightbalance.
And, mark, there have been, Ithink, certain elements that
have caused people to feel thatway, don't you think?
Oh, just seminary, oh, cemetery.
Right, they call it cemetery, Imean because there are some,
though, and you've said thatYou've thrown books across the
room because they're full ofgood truth, but the person

(16:57):
talking about evangelism or thegospel won't even preach it
themselves.

Speaker 3 (17:01):
Yeah, you want people that are doers and not just
hearers and you're referring toa book on apologetics.
I won't mention the person'sname, because I have a lot of
respect.

Speaker 1 (17:13):
What does it?

Speaker 3 (17:14):
rhyme with See, I won't do that.
Compost Ray Comfort, it rhymeswith Ray Comfort.
Because the whole book is abouthow to utilize apologetics in
evangelism.
And then the very last chaptersays it's not part of my natural
maludy to share the gospel.
But if you do allow me to offeryou a fictitious conversation,
how it might go out on thestreets, well, things never go
according to plan.
It never happens like that,charles Spurgeon.

(17:37):
He said discernment is notknowing the difference between
right and wrong, it's knowingthe difference between right and
almost wrong, almost wrong.
So it's not hard to know thedifference between right and
wrong, it's right and almostwrong.
It's like you're almost there,but to be almost there is to
almost be entirely lost.

(17:58):
It's like, well, judas, he wasalmost saved.
Well, to be almost saved is tobe entirely lost.
So we need to take heedyourself to the doctrine,
continue in them, for in doingthis you will save both yourself
and those who hear you.

Speaker 4 (18:15):
You know you said something that said.
You said somebody might saysomething like I'm not
interested in doctrine, I justwant to love God.
Doctrine is rooted in theology.
Theology is the knowledge ofGod.
How do you love somebody youdon't know?
It reminds me of a young lady Ionce knew who was abandoned by

(18:35):
her biological father and theywould meet every now and again
and he would always be like oh,but I love you, oh, but I love
you.
And one day she was confrontedin a gentle way, which is like
you say you love me, but who'smy best friend?
What school do I go to?
What do I want to do for mycareer?
Like, what are the things thatI love?
He couldn't answer any of thosequestions.
Why?
Because true love is rooted inthe knowledge of a person, and

(19:00):
so to love God is to know God.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
Yeah, amen, yeah.
One of my favorite quotes isthis every new thing learned
about God is a new reason forloving him.
That's good, you know, becausewe're growing in our
understanding of who our God is.
And when you don't have gooddoctrine, you're not rooted in
good doctrine.
Especially when you have aleadership of a church who

(19:25):
doesn't put a premium on soundbiblical doctrine, you are
headed for danger.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah, it reveals an immaturity on the part of those
who say that I don't believe ingood, sound doctrine.
It's like someone saying Idon't believe in healthy living
and you get a lot of youngpeople thinking like that.
Young people say I don'tbelieve in healthy living and
you get a lot of young people wecan tell thinking like that.
Young people say I don'tbelieve, destroy it much.
Young people say you know,believe in healthy living
because they are healthy andwell.
But just recently there's beena mass of 1960s rockers dying

(19:55):
off horribly I mean lots of themand it's because they've abused
their bodies and they'rereaping exactly what they've
sown.
And if you abuse doctrine, don'ttake heed to sound doctrine.
You're going to end up in amess spiritually.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
Oh, that's so good, ray.
It's true, you know, I've beenseeing an uptick in that and I
was thinking about that actuallytoday.
You know just someone who's illnot doing well and I thought,
man, I could trace that back tothe way that they lived for so
many years.
It's reaping what we've sownfor a long time, and the same

(20:32):
thing can happen spiritually.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
See Arnold Schwarzenegger.
I read recently he was reallyconcerned that over 20 of his
buddies lift weights and used totake the steroids with them.
They've died off.
Wow, over 20 of them.
Because they, you knowshort-term gain, didn't think in
the long-term.

Speaker 4 (20:50):
That's why easy doesn't lift weights.

Speaker 1 (20:53):
I don't need to, I am both Okay.
So let me ask this why do youguys think so many don't dive
deep into doctrine?
That's a good question, I mean.
Is it based on maybe, some ofwhat I put forth, this
misunderstanding ormisconception?
Is it laziness?

(21:13):
Is it too hard?
Does it feel dry?
So we don't want to put in theeffort to mine good doctrine.
What do you guys think it is?

Speaker 4 (21:22):
I can't help but think that it's even rooted in a
misunderstanding of the gospelitself, because I think that if
you look at God as a genie in alamp, as a vending machine, as
someone that's just there tobless your life and give you a
good life, divine butler.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
Divine butler, then you don't.
You thought that comfort.

Speaker 4 (21:41):
There's no inspiration to know him.
But what's beautiful about thegospel is the scriptures tell us
that God is not a divine butler.
He is our heavenly father, whoknows us and loves us.
And so I think, when we findthat the gospel is about us
being adopted, being a part of afamily, a new affection starts

(22:01):
to develop in our hearts.
And how do we not?
I mean, can you imagine beingan orphan your entire life and
all of a family?
A new affection starts todevelop in our hearts.
And how do we not?
I mean, can you imagine beingan orphan your entire life and
all of a sudden be saved intoadoption, into a new family?
You know, you're going to saythank you.
Why?
Who are you?
Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
In other words, you want toknow your savior.
So I think a lot of it ispeople simply misunderstanding

(22:25):
the gospel and therefore notvaluing theology, the knowledge
of God.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah, so true.
And again, to say you don'tneed doctrine and doctrine isn't
important, is a doctrine?
Yeah right, people don'trealize that they hold some form
of that's a teaching, that's aprinciple, and so you can't get
away from it.

(22:50):
The bottom line is, at the endof the day, I think, as you
alluded to Mark or Eddie, youeither have good doctrine or bad
doctrine.
Right, everyone has doctrine.
So right comfort, right comfort.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
If you look at Timothy, one of the signs of the
end of the age will be, for thetime will come when they will
not endure sound doctrine.
And I think that word endure isa very interesting word.
It actually means they won'tput up with it, they'll not
tolerate it, they don't see itas being important, they'll not
endure sound doctrine, which wethink is incredibly important.
And then it says but accordingto their own desires.

(23:21):
Well, that's a sign of a falseconversion.
Somebody lives according,professing Christ, but living by
your own desires.
They've not had a Gethsemaneexperience where they've said
not my will, but yours be done,because that's what a Christian
is.
Old things pass away, oldthings have become new.
Because they have itching ears.
I don't know if you guys everhad hives as kids.
No, you ever had an itch, youwant to scratch Itches.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
I had chives last night.

Speaker 4 (23:42):
You chives, that's pretty close.

Speaker 2 (23:44):
Oscar.
So you know, mosquito bite orsomething, I don't know how
mosquitoes probably don't liketouching your blood easy, but
mine Jewish blood.
They love Last words and itcomes up in a great welt and
there's one thing about an itchis you have to go back to it.
It's never satisfied.
And these people have itchingears for unsound doctrine and

(24:05):
who are never satisfied.
And these people have itchingears for unsound doctrine.
And then it says I love theword scripture used.
It says they heap up forthemselves, teachers, because
they've got these itching earsthat need to be scratched all
the time, never satisfied withwhat they're told.
And I've noticed that I've beenlistening to prosperity
preachers for 40, 50 years.
It's the same thing we can tellhave faith, yeah, have faith,
yeah, have faith, yeah, qualifyfor this, I believe for my V-dub
.
Yeah, it says, and they'll heapfor themselves, teachers, when

(24:32):
you heap something up, you'reusually heaping trash.
You don't heap up valuablestuff.
And they heap for themselves,teachers, and they turn away
their ears from hearing thetruth, which is what these
people do.
They don't embrace the biblicalgospel.
And one thing I've noticed andI've mentioned before these
prosperity preachers and otherslike them never talk about sin,
righteousness and judgment.
They never uphold the crosscrucified, for the sin of the

(24:55):
world might be saved from wrathto come.
It's all about me.

Speaker 1 (24:58):
Selfish, yeah.
And it goes on to say they turnaside to fables.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (25:03):
Fables, that's what it is.
Our daughters are in Utah rightnow, Mark, and they're out
there preaching the gospel toMormons.
First of all, what a joy right.
I mean, as Christian parents, toget to a place where your kids
are saying it's not.
I want to go on a spring breakvacation at Lake Havasu.
I want to go on spring breakand share the gospel in a very

(25:24):
hostile environment.
Mormons are very, very nicepeople, but we've all been.
We've been to Manti, to thepageant in Utah and it can get
really vicious, but they're outthere and so I've been
discipling Kylie through it andsitting down with her and
showing her how to witness toMormons, and she called me
yesterday with some morequestions.

(25:45):
They're out there already, yeahhow old's.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
Kylie Kylie's 18.
She's the chaperone for mydaughter who's 17.
She'll turn 18 next week.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
They're like months apart, but Kylie's the adult
right in the room.

Speaker 3 (25:56):
She's 18.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
So anyway, but she called me and was asking about
different doctrines and stuff ofthe Mormon church.
And just in the midst of itthere are certain things you
hear and you know, but once in awhile you just get struck with
the absurdity of them.
And I said to her I said Ican't believe anyone believes
this Because I was going on withher about that.

(26:17):
You can become a god and thenyou'll have your own planet, and
God was a man who came from.
I'm like I can't believe anyonewould believe this.
You know, but but fables,that's what these things are,
and yet people believe them.

Speaker 4 (26:32):
Ray mentioned earlier , um, the, the verse that says,
like in the end of days and thelast days, that things go on,
that we will care less aboutthose truths and doctrine.
And I think that this is soimportant that we need to
remember church history, becauseso often I think we want to
water down differences anddivides, like you often hear

(26:52):
from Christians talking abouttheir Catholic friends in the
Catholic church, which we love,our Catholic friends.
But there is a clear dividebetween what we believe and they
believe.
And, like I'm remembering, wewere in you and I were in Hawaii
and a group of us went to PearlHarbor and we went.
You know, when you go to PearlHarbor, you're looking at these
essential graves and it's payingrespect by remembering the cost

(27:17):
of freedom.
When you visit Auschwitz, youremind yourself not to flirt
with fascism.
The Monument of Peace Memorialreminds us against racism and in
that same way, church leadersthroughout history reminds us
the importance of doctrine.
And so when you try to downplaythe Catholic Protestant divide,

(27:38):
you think of Hugh Latimer orNicholas Ridley or Thomas
Cranmer, all burned at the stakeover transubstantiation and the
nature of mass.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
And.

Speaker 4 (27:48):
Tyndale too.
That's exactly right.
These guys lost their livesbecause of the difference
between what they believe andwhat we believe, and so I think
looking at church historyreminds us of the importance of
doctrine.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Can I say something here regarding Catholicism?
I'm amazed at how manyCatholics.
I can just say to them onesentence purgatory is not in the
Bible.
And they go, oh, and theyaccept it.
There's no argument.
They just need to be correctedand say, no, that's not sound
doctrine.
This is what sound doctrine is.
It's according to the Bible.
I'm working with Jews for Jesusat the moment in Israel and

(28:23):
we're both gone out into thestreets and they're asking one
question.
I'm asking one question we'regoing to combine into one video.
The question is where did theconscience come from, the human
conscience?
And I got the first footagefrom them day before yesterday
and I sat there with justamazement.
The guy that's doing theinterviewing is speaking to a
Jew who is very committed and hesays yes, it's a very common

(28:48):
doctrine for us to believe thatwhen a Jew dies, he goes to hell
for 11 weeks.
I'd never heard this before andthere's a certain prayer that
the Jews pray for the personthat's died, and the more they
pray, the quicker they get outof this.
11 weeks in hell or 11 months,sounds like Catholicism.
It's exactly like purgatory andI thought, man, it's the same

(29:10):
unsound doctrine in Judaismthat's in Catholicism and it
comes back to a lack ofunderstanding as the serious
nature of sin.
If you understand how serioussin is, then there's no way you
can work your way out of it orpray someone out of it.
The only thing can get you outof it is the cross.

Speaker 1 (29:28):
Oscar, I'm so, so, so glad you brought that up about
Catholicism.
Martin Luther said somethingreally powerful.
He said peace if possible.
Truth at all costs, peace ifpossible truth at all costs.
Look, we're to pursue peace withall men, especially when it
comes to inner familydiscussions on secondary,
tertiary issues.

(29:48):
We want peace, we want to bemature, we want to understand
that good godly men havedisagreed on things that aren't
essential to salvation or thegospel, because they're
difficult and they'rechallenging.
But especially when it comes toCatholicism, there is this kind
of sort of newer mindsetamongst evangelicals that hey,

(30:09):
we're all believers, we're allpart of the same family and
anytime we do something onCatholicism we get pushback you
guys are haters, you guys areman.
Read Council of Trent, readVatican II, read what's been
said by the Catholic Churchregarding believers in the
gospel.
So when we've done a video thathas hundreds of thousands of

(30:30):
views we've done multiple ones,but some millions of views on
Catholicism we can speak thetruth in love, but we can't
compromise the truth, and I lovewhat you said about how, in
essence, we're just sortneglecting the value of history
and what others have gonethrough to preserve the truth

(30:53):
and we have to be really careful.
You know about that.

Speaker 3 (30:55):
I think Moody kind of summed it up here, really, when
it comes to Catholicism, whatyou're referring to right, that
so many Catholics will read theBible for information, not for
transformation, whereas theProtestant will approach the
Word of God and just say searchme and try me, see if there be
any wicked way in me and lead mein the way everlasting.

(31:17):
I don't want to be the sametoday as I was yesterday.
Right, there's this hunger andthis thirst for righteousness,
to walk in the works which Godhas prepared beforehand.
We have no greater desire thanto see God glorified in us and
we, as fathers, we have nogreater desire than to see our
kids now walk in that truth.

(31:38):
I had a family member who saidthat their child is going off to
spring break and I said I'mjust curious, what do you say to
your daughter who's going offto spring break to this beach?
She says well, you know, justbe careful, travel in groups of
two.
I'm like we live in differentworlds.

(31:59):
And, to your point, ourdaughters are on a mission trip
at 17 and 18 years old to preachthe good news that Christ has
once and for all set us free.
Ephesians 4, 14,.
It says that we should nolonger be children tossed to and
fro and carried about withevery wind of doctrine right.

(32:22):
So without this sound doctrine,we're like a ship without a
rudder and without a compass andwe're just kind of going
wherever the tides of theculture are pushing us and
pulling us, that there is nospine, no backbone to any

(32:43):
decision making, and so you needto make your decisions
beforehand before thattemptation comes.
And I don't know make yourdecisions beforehand before that
temptation comes.
And I don't know how somebodywithin Judaism or somebody
within Catholicism or anyoutside worldview is making
their decisions when you don'thave Christ as the anchor, as
our foundation Tozer.
He finally said all greatChristian leaders have been

(33:04):
dogmatic, and not just Christianleaders, but every Christian.
We're just dogmatic when itcomes to truth, because truth
does not change with the times.
Pitbull, dogmatic Pitbull.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:18):
Doberman Pinscher.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
Yeah, dogmatic, and let me just say we've
highlighted Catholicism, judaism, but this goes for those who
are within the pale ofevangelicalism, like we need to
call out false doctrine there,with a lot of the heretical
stuff that's happeningespecially within the word faith
movement and that whole realm.

(33:41):
But, ray, it's a premise oflove, isn't it?
Like you know, mark just usedthe word dogma or dogmatic.
Again, there are certain wordsthat are kind of like trigger
words.
Oh, you know, that's.
You imagine someone with just aface, that's just, you know,
contorted and angry and seething, like that one Like that, yeah,

(34:03):
living illustration.

Speaker 4 (34:04):
So when you say trigger words, you mean like
cotton and teeth.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
Bad people Triggered Someone who's dogmatic is
obviously seems like a legalistor someone who's unreasonable,
Someone who's dogmatic they'restubborn, but we're talking
about being stubborn for thetruth.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
But my point is it's fueled by love.
We love God, we love His truth,we love people who are in error
and we don't have to be meanand mean-spirited and nasty when
we're trying to correct them.
In truth.

Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah, the wisdom that's from above is open to
reason, and that's how we shouldbe in meekness, instructing
those that oppose themselves.
I was thinking what is thefilter for truth?
And the filter really is thenew birth.
If you're born again, the holyspirit is within you, the spirit
of truth leads you, and ifyou're not born again, you'll
believe anything, and that'swhat's happened.
Within the contemporary body ofchrist, we have masses of

(34:57):
people who have never found aplace of biblical repentance and
they don't bring bring forththings that accompany salvation,
and one of those things is alove of the truth and a desire
for truth.
I remember, as a brand-newChristian, I read one of the
Proverbs things, proverbs 11,which speaks of.
It sounded like God broughtforth Jesus in the beginning,

(35:19):
and it was a Jehovah's Witnessthat said to me there Jesus was
created.
So I called a guy, an elderlyChristian, and I said what does
this mean?
And he wouldn't tell me.
He wouldn't tell me.
He says you search it foryourself, and all I did was read
it in context, went back to theWord and it's not speaking of
Jesus, it's speaking of wisdom.
God brought forth wisdom in thebeginning and it's always

(35:40):
stayed with me that if yousearch the Scriptures, you'll
find truth.
Read things in context.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
I remember an elderly gentleman coming to me and
saying I had a similar questionand he said go try to figure it
out yourself.
He said, remember, the wisdomof God is not hidden from you,
it's hidden for you.
Go down, dig deep and you'regoing to find that answer within
the Word of God.

Speaker 4 (36:02):
By the way, dogma just means dogs with magnets.
I want to rewind and take astep back to be helpful for our
listeners, because you usecertain terminology that's
really important, which isprimary, secondary or tertiary,
and so would you mind explainingwhat you mean by that for
somebody that might yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
And what I do want to do as well in the second kind
of segment here is I want us totalk about what are the good,
clear doctrines that we shouldunderstand and know.
Well, we can't get into all ofthem in depth, but just to whet
people's appetite so they can goand study and explore.
But yeah, when we're talkingabout the essentials, we're
talking about things that areessential to the historic
Christian faith.
These are hills to die on yeahhills to die on, that are

(36:41):
settled, that are clear inScripture and there's no ands,
ifs or buts about them, andwe'll get into what those are.
Secondary and tertiary issuesare dealing with things that are
non-essential, things thatwould deal with, let's say, for
example, the spiritual gifts.
Are they the sign gifts?
Are they still for today or not?

(37:03):
You have good, solid Christiansthat can disagree on that.
We can talk ecclesiology andthe church and how the church
functions and church government.
We can talk about modes ofbaptism, even right, do you
sprinkle, do you dunk?

Speaker 2 (37:18):
Head first, feet first, long under the water.
Yes, four minutes.
If they live, they live.
If they die, they die.

Speaker 4 (37:24):
If they live they live.

Speaker 1 (37:26):
If they die, they die .
You know.
Other things are eschatology,you know.
Then you have, you know, thecovenantal system versus the
dispensational system and howyou interpret Scripture in
connection with that.
You can get into head coverings, you can get into, you know,
all kinds of different thingslike that that fall within those
categories as well, and whatyour diet should be as a

(37:47):
Christian.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
What should you eat?
What?

Speaker 4 (37:48):
should you eat what?

Speaker 2 (37:48):
should you eat?
Do you eat ham?

Speaker 4 (37:49):
And so one of the best ways, I think explaining
primaries and secondaries iswhen we talk about the primaries
, as you mentioned.
This is essential to Christiandoctrine Historically.
If you don't believe in theprimaries, it's heresy, you're
not of the faith, and the bestway to describe it, I think,
because the thing about usingthe phrase secondary, tertiary,
is that it's not that they'renot important, they're very

(38:13):
important.
They're important to yourspiritual vitality, they're
important to how you choose achurch, et cetera, et cetera.
But the best analogy we've usedbefore in the past is it's like
a nation with states, and so inthat sense you think about
United States of America.
We've got California with ourown kind of laws in Texas, texas
taxes and even differentculture and food.

(38:36):
You go to Texas, arizona, newYork, florida, all different
laws, all different taxes, alldifferent cultures and foods and
even dialect.
But when this nation goes towar, we come together for the
sake of the nation.
In that same sense, thesedifferent doctrines provide
different denominations, butwhen we agree on the essentials,

(39:02):
we go to war together for thesake of the gospel.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
Yeah, amen, and look at the end of the day again.
Like we talked about gooddoctrine, good, clear doctrine
should lead to something.
I love the saying that saysorthodoxy should lead to
orthopraxy, which orthopraxyorthodoxy is right, true
doctrine, orthopraxy is puttingthat into practice and living it
out.
That theology should lead todoxology, which is an expression

(39:27):
of worship.

Speaker 2 (39:28):
Apostate.
What's an apostate?
An apostate?
Yeah, it's from Italy.
Yes, that's right, it's verynice.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
Yeah, an apostate would be someone who had made a
profession of faith in Christand then abandons the faith.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
So heretical is bad doctrine.
Apostate is turning against thetruth, right, right, walking
away.

Speaker 3 (39:48):
I was going to commend a book.
I'm reading a book right nowwith a friend of mine, eric
Swanson.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
Can you read?
He read the cover.

Speaker 3 (39:55):
I'm figuring it out.
It's how to Read, ray, thankyou.
And the title of the book isFinding the Right Heels to Die
On by Gavin Ortlin, the Case forTheological Triage.
It actually has an introductionby DA Carson, who's very
insightful in the midst of this,and they go way, way back to
the 16th century and they starttalking about this fight amongst

(40:18):
the different people, and whathills did they die on?
And they put everything kind ofinto four different categories.
But my point is I recommend thebook.
It's not a book that I wouldtypically read because I think,
all right, no, I get it.
I kind of understand the ideaand the arguments at hand.
But it actually this book.

(40:41):
It's just a great book toreally examine yourself to see
am I dying on the wrong hills?
Though I would never say it,but I think maybe I am kind of
dying on a hill and I begin tojudge that person inside my
heart.
Heart.
How dare you do this?
I would never do that.
And it's not overtly sinful wetalk about.
There is nothing sinful aboutdrinking alcohol unless you
can't do it in faith and unlessyou get drunk.

(41:02):
So it just begins to put thingsinto.
Now there's appearances of evil.
You have to just be wise on howyou go about doing different
things.
But to Oscar's point aboutunderstanding primary essentials
, secondary essentials,non-essentials, things of this
nature.
I recommend the book.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
Yeah, and so another thing, too, I think we need to
highlight are the extremes andhow the pendulum swings.
So first and this is important,but this can get out of whack
as well but first and this isimportant, but this can get out
of whack as well but first, wehave to understand primarily
that the doctrine that we buildour lives upon must come from
Scripture, and that's why 2Timothy 3, 16-17 says All

(41:40):
Scripture is given byinspiration of God and is
profitable for doctrine, forreproof, for correction, for
instruction in righteousnessthat the man of God may be
complete, thoroughly equippedfor every good work.
And so this is essential.
It must be based on God's Word.
But, mark, there are some,though, that take that pendulum,

(42:01):
and well, all you need to do isread the Bible, brother,
brother, brother, brother, soyou don't need to read books on
theology, you don't need to, andspeak to that.

Speaker 3 (42:12):
Well, I was really surprised.
I had spoken at an event for achurch it was in the main
service, it was a separate eventand the pastor told me that he
was going through a book withhis congregation and I said what
commentaries do you use whengoing through?
And he goes YouTube.
Oh no, I don't use any sort ofcommentary.

(42:33):
I just get up there and I justread the text and I just explain
it and I said it happened to metoo, did it really?
Yeah, I wonder if it's the sameguy.
And I said, well, but how doyou understand like culture,
customs, traditions, originallanguages?
How do you put things into itsproper context?
And he goes it's not hard, youneed no one to teach you, but

(42:55):
the Holy Spirit shall teach youall things.
And I'm like whoa and I prayfor him every day, every day.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
I pray for him.
But here's the interestingthing, though that person is
teaching other people, sothey're giving commentary on the
Scripture, and they want peopleto listen to them and hear them
.
This is such a good point, sucha good point, and so we have to
understand that when we talkabout reading books, friends, we
talk about reading commentaries.
What you're doing is you'redoing what Scripture talks about

(43:23):
, and that is using oneanother's gifts to minister to
one another.
Those who teach in teachingright, and so those that are
gifted in that way, are given usto the body, so they put it in
a written form.
Now you're taking it andreading it.
Scholars that have researched,that know the original languages
, that can help you understandwith greater depth.
The other extreme of thependulum is those that just read
books, listen to commentariesor listen to the sermons from

(43:44):
their pastors, and don't examinethe scriptures themselves, like
it tells us in Acts those whowere in.
Berea were more noble-mindedthan those who were in
Thessalonica, because they notonly received the word with
great eagerness, they alsoexamined the scriptures to see
if these things were.
So.
Ray, you're going to say?

Speaker 2 (43:58):
Charles Spurgeon said give yourself to reading.
The man who never reads willnever be read.
And he never quotes will neverbe quoted.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
A violence Is that video A?

Speaker 2 (44:09):
violence.

Speaker 3 (44:10):
Yeah, yes, let me get back.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
Marks.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
I hope so Reached across on my iPad and swung that
quote right at him, just likehe tickled your ear earlier with
a laugh during that one segment.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
So this is obviously.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
I feel like a fly landed on my shoulder.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
Is there a breeze in here?

Speaker 2 (44:25):
A small fly, obviously the devil doesn't want
anyone to hear this.
He will not be.
Uh, use the thoughts of othermen's brains proves that he has
no brains of his own you need toread that is good isn't that
good, ma that's so.
Are you regretful?

Speaker 4 (44:39):
this is you know we're.
I love the direction of theconversation.
Now ray's patting him makingsure he's okay.
I love the direction of theconversation because
unintentionally if you guysdon't know listener, we do not
plan these conversations.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
We just come in.

Speaker 4 (44:56):
But we started out, really we started out talking
about how doctrine divides, andthat's okay.
But doctrine isn't just fordividing, it's also for our
spiritual health and this is oneof the qualms that I have that
a lot of times, preachers whoare sound doctrinally who I love
, otherwise, who are helpful,they often preach doctrine as

(45:20):
this us versus them ism dividing, only using doctrine to divide.
This is why our church is rightand their church is wrong, and
they present doctrine as thoughit's like okay when it comes to
these secondary issues.
Yes, yes, we can all we agreethat we're all Christians.
But if you believe in thosesecondary issues, you're almost

(45:41):
like this second glass citizen,you're almost like on the
sidelines, you're in the minorleagues.
Welcome, know, welcome to themajor leagues if you believe my
doctrine.
And so when we teach doctrineas purely divisional, we lose
the healthiness and beauty of it.
And I love Paul's use of theword.
He says sound doctrine.
The Greek word for sound meanshealthy, not diseased.

Speaker 2 (46:07):
In other words.

Speaker 4 (46:08):
it's right.
Wrong doctrine eats away atyour spiritual health, and so I
just I have examples of like thebeauty of doctrine, not just to
divide, but for your joy.
You know, if you're an anxiousperson when you watch the news,
maybe you have bad doctrine,because the doctrine of

(46:28):
eschatology comforts your soul.
If you're refusing to see thewrong in yourself when you're
having an argument with yourwife, maybe it's rooted in
doctrine, because the doctrineof depravity humbles you.
If you're feeling guilty oversin, the doctrine of adoption
encourages you.
If you're feeling the weight ofproviding for your family, the
doctrine of God for your family,the doctrine of God's

(46:49):
sovereignty, releases you.
If you feel like life ismeaningless, the doctrine of
creation reminds you that youare made in God's image, with
value and worth and dignity, andhe has a plan and a purpose for
your life, which is to glorifyhim and enjoy him forever.
If you're grieving the loss ofa loved one, the doctrine of the

(47:11):
resurrection brings you comfort.
If you're discouraged by thestate of the church because
you're on social media all thetime, maybe you don't believe in
the doctrine of ecclesiology,which is the reality that Jesus
is building up his bride and hewill not leave her or forsake
her.
In other words, doctrine isn'tthere just to divide us.

(47:32):
It's there as a medicine forour souls.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
And it should unite us.
You think of the two women whosaid this is my child to Solomon
, the baby in Solomon's okay,we'll cut it in half.
The genuine mother says I don'twant to cut it in half, you
have it.
And the false convert, thosethat don't really love God don't
care about the body.
You want to divide the body ofChrist through unsound doctrine.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
You know good points, you guys.
This is, I think, the realevidence that we're handling
ourselves appropriately whendealing with confronting someone
about false doctrine.
It goes back to Philippians 2.
This is always a test for me.
When I'm in a disagreement withsomeone, when I'm feeling a

(48:17):
sense of displeasure aboutsomething someone said or did, I
try to ask myself am Ifulfilling Philippians 2 right
now?
And let nothing be done throughselfish ambition or conceit,
but in loneliness of mind, leteach esteem others better than
himself.
And I have to ask that rightnow, in the way that I'm talking
to this person, whether it's acult member or a member of a

(48:40):
false religion or someone that'sMark Spence yeah, of course Bad
person Am I?
Am I Acting in a way thattangibly says you are more
important to me than I am tomyself?
Boy that?

Speaker 2 (48:57):
comes back to pride, because if you think of yourself
in a lowly manner, then it'seasy to think of someone better
than yourself.
But if you think you are numberone in the world, it's going to
be hard to treat someone betterthan yourself because you've
got such a high bar.
So I can see how you can do iteasy, because you're just nobody
.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
I'm so humble, I'm so cute, but the thing is you
haven't thought about it yet.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
The thing is Nothing.

Speaker 1 (49:28):
The thing is, when we're in a disagreement with
someone and we're getting workedup, it's because we're
self-focused.

Speaker 3 (49:34):
I don't know.
I disagree with that.

Speaker 1 (49:37):
I don't like the way you make me feel I'm right,
you're wrong.
You can't make me look, butwhen I'm others-focused, I'm
thinking okay, if this person isbelieving false doctrine, there
is a danger to their soul.
I love them and even if it'slike, let's say, it's something
we're talking to an otherbeliever about, but they have a

(49:57):
wrong understanding of and itcould be harmful to them
spiritually, it may not be theireternal salvation but their
spiritual well-being.
If I care for them, then I'mwalking in love and all the
fruit of love is going to bemanifested.
I'm going to be patient, I'mgoing to be kind.
I'm not going to be selfish,I'm not going to be provoked to
wrath, I'm not going to keeprecords of wrongs and so forth.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
We don't realize we're selfish until we get
married, that's when you realizethat You're living in your
teens you just say everything'sme, me, me.
And then you get married andyou're thinking, no, it's not me
.

Speaker 1 (50:29):
It's us.
My wife's allergic to shellfishRay is your favorite restaurant
still?
Mimi's Cafe.
Mimi, that's very selfish.
What did you say, oscar?

Speaker 4 (50:37):
I said my wife's allergic to shellfish.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
So, yeah, so, oscar, the verse you quoted earlier,
titus 2.1,.
But as for you, paul says speakthe things which are proper for
sound doctrine 2 Timothy 2,6-8,.
Likewise, exhort the young mento be sober-minded in all things
, showing yourself to be apattern of good works in
doctrine, showing integrity,reverence, incorruptibility,

(51:02):
sound speech.
That cannot be condemned, thatone who is an opponent may be
ashamed, having nothing evil tosay of you.
I mean this is an exhortationto the young men of the church.
He's saying, man, haveintegrity in your doctrine and
have reverence.
You need to be reverent whenyou're handling truth.

Speaker 2 (51:18):
And you think of the word sober when you say
sober-minded.
A sober person walks a straightpath.
Someone who's not sober-mindedis drunken, doesn't have have
that strength, that's right.

Speaker 4 (51:27):
I'm so glad you brought up that verse, because
think about, like the word thatyou just use, have integrity.
A lack of integrity is having aright doctrine with a wrong
heart, and when doctrine affectsyour heart, it produces
fruitfulness.
And so you can say that youbelieve all the right things, or
you can say that you know allthe right things.

(51:48):
Or you can say that you knowall the right things, but do you
believe them?

Speaker 1 (51:51):
Does it?
Penetrate your heart andproduce fruitfulness and that
and guys again, when we get backto it we always hit on this.
That is why a deep devotionallife is so essential, a life of
real prayer and communion withChrist.
You know Of anything thatsticks out to me about Spurgeon,
it's how often he talked aboutprayer, the prayer closet

(52:15):
intimacy with Christ, and all ofus know here it's hard to
imagine anyone devotionallywho's affected the body of
Christ since his time more thanSpurgeon, right?

Speaker 3 (52:26):
You know I usually quote a lot of people.
I want to quote myself here,Usually a Bible that belongs.
A Bible that has fallen apartusually belongs to someone who
isn't.
That's original.
But, that's Spurgeon.
That's who you're quoting here,right.

Speaker 1 (52:40):
Yeah, and so that's why we must seek God.
We must be in his presencebecause it's there that he shows
you the error of your way.
It's there that he shows youyou've become ugly with doctrine
, you've become contentious,you've become unloving, and it's
there that you repent andbecome refined so that your
orthopraxy matches yourorthodoxy.

Speaker 3 (53:00):
One of the greatest books that affected me in my
early years of a Christian wasBrother Lawrence right,
practicing the Presence of God.
And you know I don't agree witheverything that's in the book,
but just there's this idea ofknowing that Christ is always
present, he's always eminent, heis here, he can come back at

(53:23):
any time.
You know what was it?
Enoch walked with God and thenthat was it.
He was taken away and it's likedid he know that there was a
change of address?
Because he went from walkingwith God to walking with God?
Right, there's a change of zipcodes, but I wonder if he was
married.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
That's why I said man , where is he Babe?

Speaker 4 (53:42):
Babe.

Speaker 3 (53:44):
But, how much different would our conversation
be around the dinner table ifwe had an empty chair, that we
were mindful hey, this is whereChrist sits.
Or we're watching a movie andwe have a little sign like John
Harris.
John Harris has a little signon his television and I don't
remember what it is, but it'sjust it's the mindful of Christ

(54:05):
is watching this with you.
And we would just treat peopledifferently, we would treat the
Word of God differently, if wereally came to that conclusion.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
It brought back a great memory to me when I was a
non-Christian, I used to go tomy in-law's house and they had a
sign.
They were Christians.
They had a sign up on the wallthat said Christ is the head of
this house.
The sign don't listen to everyconversation and I'd look at it
and it would give me the creeps.
I Then I got saved and lookedat it and I thought, wow, how
wonderful that is, wow.

Speaker 1 (54:34):
Because my sins are washed away.
Right, Imagine you saying tosomeone I don't know, in some
kind of scenario or something,or hearing someone say to you
God is watching us.
Ah, right, Got that.

Speaker 2 (54:48):
That's the most sobering sentence I've ever
heard in my life, all right.

Speaker 1 (54:52):
So a couple more things and we'll get into those
good doctrines.
But think of what 2 John 9through 11 says Good.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
It's the best one for the time.

Speaker 1 (55:02):
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the
doctrine of Christ does not haveGod.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
Powerful.

Speaker 1 (55:09):
He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the
Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you and doesnot bring this doctrine, do not
receive him into your house norgreet him, for he who greets
him shares in his evil deeds.
I mean again, this is explicitFor those of you who say, ah,
doctrine, whatever.
You need to get in the Word andlook at what the Word says
about doctrine.

Speaker 2 (55:26):
So that when you greet someone you're commending
their doctrine.
Because I've had this littleargument with myself, with the
Jehovah's Witnesses at StandardLocal College, every day Do I
say good morning to them or not?
Yeah, and I have been sayinggood morning to them.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
That's good.
No, the context of that isbringing them within the
confines of the church and beingJude 1.3, beloved.
While I was very diligent towrite to you concerning our
common salvation, I found itnecessary to write to you
exhorting you to contendearnestly for the faith, which
is made up of doctrine, whichwas once for all delivered to
the saints.
So those are all important.

(56:03):
All right, so real quick, as wefinish up, what are the good,
clear doctrines that we shouldfocus on?
Number one the authority ofScripture.
The authority of Scripture.

Speaker 2 (56:15):
That'd be the number one.
Number one, wouldn't it?
Number one.

Speaker 1 (56:17):
Yeah, because.
Oscar, if we don't have thefoundation of Scripture, how do
we get truth?

Speaker 4 (56:23):
That's right.
Yeah, scriptures are our chiefway of understanding who God is.
It's His revelation to us.
I usually don't like using thisterminology because it sounds
cheesy, but truly it is God'shis revelation to us.
I usually don't like using thisterminology because it sounds
cheesy, but truly it is God'slove letter to his people.

Speaker 2 (56:37):
That sounds cheesy, and once again.

Speaker 4 (56:40):
If you claim to be in relationship with the Father in
heaven, how do you not knowFather in heaven?
And, as it pertains to theinerrancy and authority, as soon
as you start questioning theinerrancy and authority of God's
Word, ultimately what you do isyou make yourself authority
over it.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
It's not cheesy, it's beautiful.
It's gorgeous the nature of God.
Mark the Trinity.
How important is it for us tounderstand the triune nature of
God?

Speaker 3 (57:07):
Yeah, when you begin to look at the Bible from maybe
a 10,000 foot level in thealtitude, you're going to be too
confused to understand anythingwhen it comes to the nature of
God, because there areattributes that are shared
amongst each other, between theFather, the Son and the Holy
Spirit.
We were emailing back and forthconcerning this just the other

(57:29):
day so that our daughters cantalk about this with these
Mormons.
So to understand the nature ofGod is to understand God himself
.
Let him who boasts in this, lethim who glories, glory in this,
that he understands me, andthis is life eternal, that they
may know you, the only true Godin Jesus Christ whom you've sent
.
So I love studying thedifferent attributes, the

(57:51):
different characteristics of God.
It was John Stott who said youcannot properly preach the
gospel if you do not properlypreach Christ.
So Christ must be preeminentinside of our preaching, both on
a Sunday morning and when we'reout on the street talking to
people.
So the Trinity obviously youtry to.
Who was it that said theTrinity?

(58:11):
If you try to understand it,you're going to blow your mind,
you're going to lose your mind,but if you deny the Trinity you
lose your soul.
So we need to be careful in themidst of this, and we didn't
understand the Trinity when wefirst became a Christian.
But, yeah, the idea ofunderstanding God is preeminent
when we approach the Word of God.

Speaker 1 (58:28):
Who God is, that's right, the person and work of
Jesus Christ.
Ray that Christ is fully God,fully man.
His sinful life,substitutionary death,
resurrection, all that, thefoundation for salvation.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
Absolutely.
God was manifest in the flesh,and I'm surprised how many
Christians don't realize whoJesus is.
They don't fully understandthat he was God manifest in the
flesh.
As the scriptures say inTimothy Take heed to yourself
and to the doctrine, continue inthem, and in doing so you will
save both yourself and those whohear you.
So we've got a tremendousresponsibility when we're
sharing the gospel, to share thebiblical gospel and not get
into other stuff that's going tohave poison.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
Real good.
All right, we don't have timeto get deep into the rest,
friends, but the gospel andsalvation.
You have to understand,obviously, what we call
soteriology, the doctrine ofsalvation.
What is the gospel?
It's the gospel through which 1Corinthians 15 tells us we are
saved, and so you need to knowwhat that is and how we're saved
.
The person and work of the HolySpirit.
The Holy Spirit is not an it.

(59:25):
Be careful, when you refer tothe Holy Spirit, not to say and
it.
He's a person, he's a thirdperson of the triune Godhead.
The church, the doctrine of thechurch, that it's the body of
Christ, made up of truebelievers, that it exists to
glorify God through worship,teaching, fellowship, evangelism
massively huge, because, as weoften talk about, if you don't
have the foundation of thechurch in your life, you're not

(59:47):
walking in the fullness of whata believer is called to walk in
the second coming of Christ, thereality of heaven and hell, the
nature of humanity and sin,christian living and holiness,
which is also essential.
How then, shall we live?
How do we take all of this andbring it into the fullness of?

Speaker 4 (01:00:05):
life.
Side note, we have a prettyrobust doctrinal statement on
our website, livingwaterscom.
If you guys have never listened, or if you've never really
looked through one or lookedthrough your own churches,
that's a great place to start.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
Yeah, amen.
And you know a book that Raywrote that I think is great.
That will kind of open the doorto you exploring good, sound
doctrine.
More is World Religions in aNutshell.
Ray hits on a lot of falseteachings within world religions
and, by extension, it'll helpyou to veer toward the truth.
All right, friends.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
That was a mouthful.
You guys talked a lot.
I slept Well, I can tell.
Don't forget, friends, thedeluxe treasure, trust, I don't
know 500 coins, the livingwaters mug, the evidence, study
Bible, living waters TV, alllivingwaterscom.
And don't forget the podcastYouTube channel, thank you.
Oh, don't forget podcast atlivingwaterscom.
And don't forget the podcastYouTube channel, thank you.
Oh, don't forget podcast atlivingwaterscom.

(01:00:57):
Friends, we want to hear yourthoughts, your ideas, your
questions, your criticisms ofMark.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
Raine.

Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
Oscar, thank you so much for joining us.
Friends, we'll see you herenext time on the Living Waters
podcast, where we have no ideaexcept when it comes to sound
doctrine what we're doing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
I think Disney wants your voice.