Ep. 342 - What Does the Bible Say About the Death Penalty?

Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar discuss the controversial topic of capital punishment, highlighting its complexity and the wide spectrum of beliefs among Christians. While some believers stand firmly for the death penalty, others oppose it with equal conviction. Christians are called to seek biblical truth with humility, not pride, even in secondary issues where disagreement is allowed. Jesus often responded to difficult questions with another question, inviting deeper thought rather than debate. Ray supports the death penalty in principle but recognizes the flaws in the justice system, pointing out how false witnesses in Scripture and in history have led to unjust executions. The guys agree that capital punishment must be handled with care, remembering that each life involved—perpetrator or victim—bears the image of God.

Genesis 9:6 and Romans 13:1-4 are cited as the strongest scriptural support for the death penalty, with God affirming the sanctity of life by requiring justice for the shedding of innocent blood. E.Z. emphasizes that those in authority are placed by God, whether as a blessing or judgment, and voters must be mindful of this truth. Still, the group stresses that decisions involving life and death should never be made flippantly. Oscar approaches the issue with humility, offering three lenses of hesitation: spiritual, philosophical, and practical. He references Augustine’s concern that executing someone may mar the image of God, though Augustine wasn’t completely opposed to it. Yet others in the group argue that removing someone who claims lives is actually honoring life and protecting society.

The guys discuss the tension between grace and justice. Some argue capital punishment is mercy to the victims and society, preventing re-offense. Others say prolonging life on death row offers more time for repentance. This tension surfaces often: should mercy delay justice, or should justice be swift for the sake of the victims? There’s also the question of honoring the victim’s dignity and preventing additional harm to their families.

Throughout, the group warns against personal retribution, reminding listeners that Scripture differentiates between personal responsibility and the role of government. They caution against cherry-picking verses and advocate for reading Scripture in context, letting Scripture interpret Scripture. True wisdom is found in seeking the Lord, studying His Word, and engaging in fellowship. While opinions may vary, the guys agree on one thing: may the Lord help us think deeply and biblically, with both compassion and conviction.

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You can connect with us at [e-mail]. We're thankful for your input!
Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm definitely for the death penalty, but I'm
against it.
And let me tell you why I'm oftwo minds.
Deuteronomy 17, 6,.
Whoever is deserving of deathshall be put to death on the
testimony of two or threewitnesses.
He shall not be put to death onthe testimony of one witness.
And this is why I'm of twominds.
You can see in Scripture wherethere were a lot of false
witnesses, like you've gotJezebel, she got false witnesses

(00:23):
to testify against Naboth andhad him killed.
And Acts 16, verse 13.
Acts 6, verse 13.
Stephen false witnessestestifying against him.
He was put to death.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
And with.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Jesus.
False witnesses Matthew 26, 59to 60.
Came and he was put to death.
And that's my concern.
I believe in the death penalty,but a lot of people have been
put to death who were innocent.
I took the time to go toWikipedia and it just about made
me cry, so many people havebeen put to death and afterwards
someone came forward and said Idid it.

(00:56):
He didn't do it.
That has happened and you canimagine being on death row and
saying I'm innocent.
They say, everybody says that.
Everybody says that.
Being on death row, so I'minnocent.
They say, everybody says that,everybody says that.
And it'd be so easy nowadays toset someone up as a scapegoat.
You want someone murdered, soyou set someone up, you drug
them, you put them by the body,you put fingerprints on the gun,

(01:17):
you go to his computer, youhack into it and search how to
kill somebody, and so when hewakes up, all the evidence is
against him.
And then you can even bribe thejury, say there's money for you
or we're going to kill yourkids.
And this sort of thing happensnowadays.
So that's why, if there'soverwhelming evidence, I'm for
the death sentence.

(01:37):
I mean absolutely overwhelmingevidence.
We've got a case in New York atthe moment where this guy was
filmed shooting someone, yeah,and you see him getting away and
then you see him having the gunmade and you see his manifesto
saying he's going to kill thisguy, right, and so there's
overwhelming evidence.
But on the other cases I'm justhesitant.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
Oh, man, you guys, this is why I love our
conversations.
It's been a while, friends, butit's back by popular demand.
Whose demand Mine and I'mpopular.
Welcome to the Try Not To LaughAt Dad Jokes segment, where we

(02:19):
try not to laugh at dad jokes.
You guys, ready, if you'retelling them it's not going to
be a problem?
Exactly, let's see, here we go.
I'm already not laughing.
No, it's not funny.
How much does a roof cost?
Nothing, it's on the house.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
My wife traumatically ripped the covers off me last
night, but I will recover.
That's supposed to laugh.

Speaker 3 (02:42):
That was funny, my wife Traumatically ripped the
covers off me Last night, but Iwill recover.
Who was the builder Of KingArthur's Round table?
Circumference.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
I don't get that one.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
Circumference.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
Round table.
I'll explain them that one.
I got it.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
In circumference Round table.
I'll explain them to you, matt.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
I have a Polish friend who's a sound technician
and a Czech one too, and a Czechone too.
I got it.
I told my wife she was drawingher eyebrows too high.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
She looked surprised, that's good.

Speaker 3 (03:35):
I think it's the delivery that's not doing it for
me.
Okay, that's enough.

Speaker 4 (03:40):
Oh, that's it.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
Oh, you want more?
Okay, I got more.
You didn't get Oscar to laughat all.
Oscar, you need to be a fatherlonger I laughed at you guys.

Speaker 4 (03:46):
Here we go.
I'm going to do my best tolaugh.

Speaker 3 (03:47):
I'm really going to try not to laugh.
Me too, a weasel.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
That was the best one .

Speaker 3 (03:57):
Okay, no, seriously, here it goes.
A weasel walks into a bar.
The bartender says what can Iget you Pop, goes the weasel,
all right.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
There we go.
That was good.
Was that good?
Okay?
Oscar smiled, by the way, yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:21):
Okay, okay, by the way, yeah, okay.
I stayed up all night trying tofigure out where the sun was,
and then it dawned on me.
Okay, all right, a couple more.
Here goes.
Come on, oscar.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
I'm doing my best Good.
That's why I'm happy here we go.

Speaker 3 (04:44):
I accidentally drank invisible ink.
I'm now in the Good.
That's why I'm happy.
Here we go.
I accidentally drank invisibleink.
I'm now in the hospital waitingto be seen.
All right, last one, here itgoes.
I've decided I want a pettermite.
I'm going to call him ClintEatswood.
Stop it Wheezy.

(05:06):
I'm gonna call him ClintEatswood, Stop it Wheezy.
I can't stop.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Welcome to the Easily Amused Podcast.

Speaker 3 (05:14):
Oh, that was so much fun, you guys.
I'm crying Today.
Friends, ray Comfort is inanother man's suit.
Oh yeah, you asked if you gaveme another man's suit.

Speaker 4 (05:24):
Yeah, oh yeah, nice, it says suit or soup.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
Nice.
Your asker gave me another one.
It's jackets.

Speaker 3 (05:27):
Sports coat, ray.
I love it.
Tell me the theory behind theelbow pads.
I've always tried to figurethat out.
Is it just reinforced?

Speaker 1 (05:36):
So if you fall down on sort of concrete or something
.

Speaker 4 (05:38):
Which you often do.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
Regularly like five times in a row.

Speaker 3 (05:42):
It doesn't hurt your elbow Ray.
You destroy concrete.
Concrete has no effect on yourelbows.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
No, actually no.
During the Great Depression,when it was hard to find a job,
people would dress up as well asthey possibly could and they
would have a sports coat andthey would go out and they would
actually work inside theirsports coat and they would mess
it.

Speaker 3 (06:01):
I just made that all up I'm thinking wow, Mark, you
guys were looking at me like Iwas intelligent, Like where did
you find that trivia?

Speaker 1 (06:07):
That's what that feels like.

Speaker 4 (06:07):
The historian.

Speaker 3 (06:09):
So, Ray, do you feel like a double portion of Oscar's
anointing?

Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, I feel more intelligent.
I feel as though I've just gotto read three books a day.

Speaker 3 (06:17):
Yeah, it just came upon me.

Speaker 4 (06:20):
Looks good on you, thank you.
Can we talk about what happenedearlier, when you heard
yourself?

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Oh yeah, please do, because it was great to have
truth.

Speaker 4 (06:28):
We filmed a happy birthday message on Mark's phone
and Mark was playing it back tolisten and Easy opens the
message with his tried and truehello friends, hello friends,
friends.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
But, Easy.

Speaker 4 (06:43):
doesn't realize what he's listening to, he goes oh,
what is that?

Speaker 1 (06:47):
We go.
That's you.
You mentioned something about asick cat.

Speaker 3 (06:51):
I thought someone was killing a cat.
It does sound a bit like you.

Speaker 4 (06:54):
You're right, that's exactly what it sounds like 340
episodes it is crazy, isn't it,when you hear back your own
voice.

Speaker 3 (07:00):
I mean, we've been doing stuff like this for years,
but was that weird for you guysthe first time you heard your
own voice back?

Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yeah, I heard myself sing.
It was terrible.

Speaker 3 (07:10):
I was 13.
I haven't sung since.
You had recorders back then.
Yes, yeah, we had voices backthen and wore shoes.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
We'd heard of the Beatles.

Speaker 4 (07:19):
No, we hadn't my ears must have confidence filters,
though, because when I sing, itsounds incredible and then I
hear it recorded and I'm likethat didn't work.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
That's what it is.

Speaker 2 (07:28):
Easy you hear yourself sing and yet you still
sing.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yes, I do.
I love my voice.
Isn't that beautiful?

Speaker 3 (07:36):
No, no, I figured, Guys, I'm pumped.
Today I got to go on a podcastwith Shannon Breen, a Fox News
anchor.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
And how did that go?
It was great.

Speaker 3 (07:47):
She's a believer loves the Lord.
And she's very sharp, isn't sheVery sharp, you know, when
someone's been doing somethingfor a long time.
But she was good and gave melike 20 minutes to talk about
the book.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
Did she remember to push the record button?

Speaker 3 (08:02):
No, she forgot.
Can you imagine?

Speaker 2 (08:04):
15 minutes more than everybody else, truth be told,
because she fell asleep.

Speaker 3 (08:08):
It's called Living the Bream.
It's a play on with her lastname, living the Bream, but
she's a real big Fox News anchoron the main channel.
What does she?

Speaker 2 (08:18):
weigh.
We've been a big fan of hersfor a long time.

Speaker 3 (08:21):
Like 600 feet, but it was great Opportunity to talk
about Fight Like a man.
It was a real blessing.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
Your book.

Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yeah, my book Fight Like a man.
You guys know how many peoplecome up to me and say stuff like
whatever Fight.
Like Roseanne, you guys havedestroyed my book title.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
Fight Like Jackie Chan and then Ken Ham signs my
book.

Speaker 3 (08:42):
I was at the ARC and I spoke at the men's conference.
He's signing my book for people.
That's funny.
He's so rude.
Yeah, yeah, all right, friends,does that sound like a cat?

Speaker 1 (08:54):
dying, no Dying yes.

Speaker 3 (08:56):
Yeah, all right, friends, a cool, classy comment
comes in the form of a postcard.
Look at this, ray.
Can you recognize what this is?

Speaker 1 (09:04):
Ray, it's a really buff-looking chicken.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
It's a chicken made out of eggshells right, oscar, I
saw that it's cool.
Yeah, so this is from theNetherlands, believe it or not?
From the Netherlands.
Thank you so much, ray, foreverything Spreading the gospel,
all those gospel tracts andbooks, the Living Waters podcast
and TV, etc.

(09:28):
Etc.
So thankful that God let mefind Living Waters on the
internet.
I saw this card and Iimmediately thought of you and
your chickens.
God bless you and Easy, markand Oscar and all the others
praying for you.
Daily Greetings from theNetherlands.
Nadi or Nadia, 2 Peter, 3, 18.
Thank you, ray, you got aticket Sorry.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
I've got a cool clear email to read.
Oh, yes, yes it's from ConnorFitzgerald and I found this very
encouraging.
He says about two years ago Iordered a bundle of tracks from
your store.
You were all thoughtful enoughto include a free baseball cap
with my purchase.
That's a Living Waters hat.
I've been putting them in forabout four years.
When I do orders which I dousually on Saturday mornings,

(10:17):
when I see someone's ordered alot of tracks, my heart goes out
.
I'm like this is a person whois spending their own money on
gospel tracks for other peopleand I want to encourage them.
So I drop in a hat.
So he says he found a hat.
I didn't always wear a hat atthat time, but I decided to wear
it one day, a few days afteryou guys sent it to me.
Later that day at work, duringa windstorm, a freak accident

(10:40):
happened.
I was walking past a heavysteel gate and out of nowhere,
nowhere, the wind blew and itopened and hit me in the back,
sending me flying six feet faceinto a steel light post.
I ended up with a very mildconcussion and some swelling on
my forehead, but because I waswearing the Living Waters hat,
the bill of the hat folded downand covered my forehead.

(11:02):
When I examined the light postthe next day, I saw that the hat
had scraped off part of thepaint.
If I hadn't been wearing thehat, it would have split my head
open and I probably would haveneeded surgery Only because of
your guy's free hat.
I have no serious lastingdamage.
I'm very thankful.

Speaker 3 (11:20):
No way Isn't that crazy.
I think if you touched the hat,you gave him your curse Ray.
That's what it should bethinking here.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
You took a positive and put it into a negative.
The poor guy Think of all theother people that have died and
haven't thanked me for the hatAll right, all because hats
won't sell, we're giving themaway, and now this guy's alive.
No, no, these are for sale, butwe give them away to people who
order lots of tracks.

Speaker 3 (11:46):
By the way.
What a cool story, though,seriously.

Speaker 4 (11:49):
For those who listen to the podcast.
If you spend $100 or more ontracks, ray will send you a
Living.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
Waters toupee.

Speaker 4 (12:00):
His own.

Speaker 1 (12:00):
Now that's going to start a rumor.
Pull it real hard, mark.

Speaker 3 (12:04):
It's real, like Trump .
Yes, it's real.
It's my hair.
Thank you so much for writingin, connor, you said right.
Yes, seriously, though, praiseGod, that's great, and just so
you know, friends, we do have astaff here.
We don't have to have our CEOpacking orders.
He does it because he loves hiswife and she's our head order
packer here and he comes andhelps her.

(12:25):
That's her official title headorder packer.
Yeah, no, she, she oversees ourwhole shipping department.
So sue, super sue, yep, allright friends.
Now a radically remarkableresource this podcast is the
tract sample pack.
It's still selling guys Full ofall the tracts we carry.

(12:46):
It's very extraordinary.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
Let me describe it to you.
It's a pack that's full oftracts.

Speaker 3 (12:52):
It's a box Ray's idea , a box.
We used to put them in theselittle plastic things.
Now it's a cool looking box.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
We made a mistake with that when it first came out
.
We offered them for about $5.
We started selling thousandsand we couldn't figure out why
Mark would actually take themhome, because we couldn't keep
up with people wanting them.
Then we realized people werebuying them to give out tracks,
not to see samples, but just togive out tracks, because they
were cheap and came in a nicebox.

Speaker 3 (13:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, this will give you apersonal glimpse at all the
tracks we carry.
You can handle them, read themand throw them at people.
If you can handle them, throwthem at people.
We still need a Frisbee track,ray, a boomerang track.
Yeah, I threw it, but it didn'tcome back.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
The nothing at the end.

Speaker 3 (13:35):
And over again.

Speaker 1 (13:36):
I did look into a boomerang track.
Do it again.
Gotta find one, yeah, becausewe get something made with
scripture on it.
Can you watch around?

Speaker 3 (13:43):
Oh, did you get a new watch, ray?

Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yes, After you gave your watch away.

Speaker 3 (13:45):
Yes, same one, yeah, of course.
Ooh, look at that, look at thatFancy.
13 bucks now.
No, it's gone up a littleDouble digits.
Yeah, how much.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
Ray, I think about 14 .
Unbelievable.

Speaker 3 (14:00):
It's already scratched.

Speaker 1 (14:02):
Just note You're a big time.
You're a big time, it is.

Speaker 3 (14:05):
So don't forget it, friends, a track sample pack,
the Living Waters mug, fromwhich you can take a chug and
I'll give you a hug, don'tforget that.
And it's a study Bible fromwhich you're liable to find a
revival, livingwaterstv andLivingWaterscom that's where
you'll find it all.
And Oscar, is he just mincedmeat?

(14:27):
No, no, no, no.
All that living water is, yeah,my rocker.
See, I put podcast YouTubechannel at the end, so it threw
me off.

Speaker 2 (14:31):
But I'll try to get back on my game.
I'm sorry, oscar, it's okay,I'll just leave.
Now Another song oh yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:40):
Don't forget the podcast YouTube channel.
It's exploding.
Thousands upon thousands ofsubscribers.
Be one of them.
All right friends Today.
Oh boy, how to switch from allthat?
We should have an apology afterthe introduction yeah for the
three of you still listening,sorry, friends.
What does the Bible say aboutthe death penalty?

(15:02):
It's going to be interestingtoday to see where we all land,
because, again, we don't reallytalk about these things
beforehand.
So we'll see.
I think we all agree, exceptfor maybe Oscar.
We'll see.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
Oscar, why do you not like justice?
I love justice or mercy.
I love mercy.
The court system I love.

Speaker 4 (15:23):
Why are you?

Speaker 2 (15:23):
against judges?
Yeah, I love mercy, the courtsystem I love.
Why are you against judges?

Speaker 4 (15:27):
Yeah, oscar yeah the court system.

Speaker 3 (15:29):
Yeah, Oscar.
Hey, look, this is a topic thathas created a lot of division.

Speaker 1 (15:36):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (15:36):
Totally.
What does that mean?
Oh, I'm not sure what.
Who am I?

Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:43):
I disagree with myself.

Speaker 4 (15:44):
That was the best joke you've made so far.

Speaker 3 (15:46):
I know it's so cute, but it really has.
And it's interesting.
When you look at the spectrumright, you'll see so many people
who are for death on one handand obviously you guys know I'm
talking about abortion but soagainst death when it comes to

(16:06):
the death penalty.
I mean, the Catholic Church isa case in point in that regard.
Liberals are a case in point inthis regard.
Again, I don't want to just sayeveryone who doesn't believe in
the death penalty is liberal ortheologically off, but you do
see that, and I would say,especially as it relates to
liberals, it blows my mind, ray,don't you think like they're so

(16:28):
against, you know, deprivingwomen to murder their babies,
but they're for limiting that.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
They're violently against the death penalty.
They'll kill you if youdisagree with them.
But yeah, for abortion withPharisaic zeal, just got to have
that abortion and it's suchwickedness.
And when it comes to the deathsentence, they're against it
with just as much violence.

Speaker 3 (16:57):
Yeah, mark, you've done so much interviewing about
the subject of abortion.
I'm curious have you ever likekind of you know, like with Ray
with 180, it started out talkingabout the Holocaust and then he
just transitioned to ask aboutabortion?
Have you ever asked someone,well, what do you think of the
death penalty while asking aboutabortion?

Speaker 2 (17:15):
No, but I've been asked that, have you?
Yeah, so somebody will say youare against abortion, yeah, the
murdering of innocent littlepre-born babies.
Well, how do you feel about thedeath penalty?
Or they just assume that I amfor the death penalty and I say
well, I don't think that theydon't go hand in hand.

(17:36):
I think it's apples and orangesand I think we could have a
conversation if you're up to it.
But usually when that questioncomes along from the skeptic,
they're not interested in theconversation or the reasoning
that I have for being for thedeath penalty.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
Capital punishment Interesting, oscar, don't you
think this is related?
But a bit off topic.
But isn't it interesting whenwe're witnessing or having a
conversation with someone abouttruth?
They ask questions but theyreally don't care about the
answer.
They're just trying to set youup, yeah, like a gotcha moment.

Speaker 4 (18:08):
That's sort of related but unrelated.
That's one of the things that Igo to when somebody asks me
about.
You know, if God is good, whyis there suffering in the world?
It's like, are you asking as anatheist, trying to pin me in
some chess match?
Are you asking as someone whohas suffered and is asking from
a place of suffering?
But to your point, especiallywhen it comes to the
conversation about abortion,they try to use it as a chess

(18:31):
play, a chess tool, and so oftenpeople are practiced in
memorizing rhetoric but notthinking critically.
And that's exactly what weexperience out on the street.

Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, Good point.
Jesus had the Pharisees kepttrying to set him up.
Good master, we know you alwaysspeak the truth.
What do you think about this?
But he knowing their hypocrisy.
So yeah, people come up and sayyou're a good Christian.
Can you tell me this?
You know you're being set up.

Speaker 3 (18:58):
Yeah, yeah, and I loved how Jesus would always
come back with a question.
It loved how Jesus would alwayscome back with a question.

Speaker 1 (19:06):
It was rare that he didn't ask a question in
response.

Speaker 3 (19:13):
Tell me about John the Baptist.
They couldn't say anything.
So yeah, guys, I don't know,can of worms.

Speaker 1 (19:19):
Pandora's box.
I don't know what we're openinghere.
I think we're opening one, butI think we're all level-headed
when it comes to this issue.
What, what did you say?
I'm level-headed, what?

Speaker 4 (19:25):
That means I've got a flat head.
Let me, because you positionedrightfully that there's sort of
a conservative, liberal positionin regards to the death penalty
.
But let me take it in-house alittle bit and just recognize
that Christians are.
This is a tertiary issue, asecondary issue that Christians
are divided, unless you're theperson dying, unless you're the

(19:47):
person dying.

Speaker 2 (19:47):
You are very clearly on one side.

Speaker 4 (19:52):
But throughout church history, pre-liberalism,
augustine had argued against thedeath penalty.
That doesn't mean that weshould be for or against it.
The only point that I'm makinghere is that we, as Christians,
can have charity towards otherChristians who are reading the
scriptures, thinking criticallyand wanting to come to a

(20:13):
biblical conclusion, whoseconvictions are falling on a
different side of the aisle hill.
This is an area in which we needto think charitably about other
Christians.
You are right.
There's liberals that have abackwards view of arguing
against the death penalty, butthat shouldn't take away from
meaningful Christians who arereading the Bibles and

(20:34):
struggling to understand thedeath penalty.

Speaker 3 (20:37):
You guys, you know there are times when I sit back
and I envision how beautiful itwould be If things are as they
should be.
So, in other words, like myideal in life, for example, is
anyone who corrects me, anyonewho approaches me, to point
something out in my life?
I want to, just, I want to bejust so receptive and open and

(21:02):
like please tell me more.
We're always, just immediatelyour defenses go up right At the
same time when it comes todiscussing things that we
disagree over.
My dream would be like if wewere living in a perfect realm
where, man, we could just do itwith grace, like there isn't

(21:22):
personal offense, and I'vealways tried to pin that down.
Why do we get so worked up?
Look, sometimes I think it'sbecause we are passionate about
the issue.
We really care about it.
I think, more often than not,it's our pride.
We just don't want to lookwrong or we just like this and
this is what we want, but, man,to be able to really just say
okay, let me hear you out Now.
I want to do that today because, oscar, I know before we

(21:44):
started, you were saying thatyou're not sure where you'd land
on this, and so I'm open tohear.
I definitely land on the sidepersonally of that.
It is right and good andbiblical, but I want to hear
that out.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
Where do you guys stand?
Yeah, I'm definitely for thedeath penalty, but I'm against
it.
And let me tell you why I'm oftwo minds.
Deuteronomy 17, 6,.
Whoever is deserving of deathshall be put to death on the
testimony of two or threewitnesses.
He shall not be put to death onthe testimony of one witness,
and this is why I'm of two minds.
You can see in scripture wherethere were a lot of false
witnesses, like you've gotJezebel, she got false witnesses
to testify against Naboth andhad him killed.

(22:22):
And Acts 16, verse 13,.
Acts 6, verse 13, stephen falsewitnesses testifying against
him.
He was put to death, good point.
And with Jesus false witnessesMatthew 26, 59 to 60, came and
he was put to death, and that'smy concern.
I believe in the death penalty,but a lot of people have been
put to death who were innocent.

(22:42):
I took the time to go toWikipedia and it just about made
me cry, so many people havebeen put to death and afterwards
someone came forward and said IDid it.
Yep, he didn't do it, I justhappened and and you can imagine
being on death row.
Some innocent, they sayeverybody says that, everybody
says that, and it?
It'd be so easy nowadays to setsomeone up as a Scapegoat.

(23:06):
You want to someone murdered.
So you set someone up, you drughim, you put him by the body,
you put fingerprints on the gun,you go to his computer, you
hack into it and search how tokill somebody.
And so when he wakes up, allthe evidence is against him.
And then you can even bribe thejury, say there's money for you
or we're going to kill yourkids.
And this sort of thing happensnowadays.

(23:28):
So that's why, if there'soverwhelming evidence, I'm for
the death sentence.
I mean absolutely overwhelmingevidence.
We've got a case in New York atthe moment where this guy was
filmed shooting someone and yousee him getting away and then
you see him having the gun madeand you see his manifesto saying
he's going to kill this guy.
And so there's overwhelmingevidence.
But on the other cases I'm justhesitant.

Speaker 3 (23:50):
Oh, man, you guys this is why I love our
conversations we're able tobring out things that we could
look at from a different angle.
I mean, that's such a validpoint, right, and Mark, we're
often glib with stuff like thisor flippant or just kind of
nonchalant about it.
We are talking about people'slives and I think, as Christians

(24:12):
, we have to be careful to notjust you know.
Oh yeah, I think this, I thinkthat we need to think through
this stuff.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
Absolutely.
In a 2000 interview, john Piperwas asked the question about
capital punishment, where hestands, and his response was I
am for capital punishment inprinciple, but how it works out
in practice is a totallydifferent issue.
Right?
And Ray gave really greatexamples of what that looks like

(24:40):
, and I think that theDeuteronomy 17 is a very good
example.
Now here's the thing there's notalways two witnesses, you know,
I mean, who's going to gomurder someone and want there to
be witnesses, so they murdermore people and there's no
eyewitnesses.
How do you deal with that?
Well, we have to trust in asovereign God that they're going
to get it in the end.
Right?
We need to be careful with that.

(25:01):
Genesis 9-6, whoever sheds theblood of man by man, shall his
blood be shed for.
God made man in his own image,right?
You don't vandalize a paintingand think the artist is not
going to get upset about it,right?
So the first thing we have tothink through is that these are

(25:23):
real people, created in theimage of God, and we need to be
very careful.
First and foremost, who do wevote for?
Who is in office?
I think that what the Tesla guy, elon Musk.
He's uncovering supposedlyuncovering all this bad spending
with Doge, this whole Dogething, and where's this money

(25:45):
going?
And he's supposedly uncoveringall of this misspending.
And now people my understandingpeople are coming up against
him and I'm like but what is hedoing wrong?
He's trying to do that which isright, whether it's right or
wrong.
He's trying to do that which isright, and now he's like a
villain, right?
I think that we need to becareful who we vote for, because

(26:06):
the people that are put inoffice are ultimately either a
blessing from God or it isjustice from God for man, for
man rebelling against God, right?
So now read another scripture Imean I know you guys are going
to read a few of these rightNumbers 35-33, you should not

(26:27):
pollute the land, right?
Blood pollutes the land.
No atonement can be made exceptby the blood of the one who
shed it.
You know, it's interesting thatGod is saying that.
The only, it seems to me, theonly justice that can take place
is for that person's blood tobe shed.
And I've heard it worded likethis because I care about you,

(26:50):
if somebody were to come insideof our studio right now with a
gun, I'd push easy in the waythe most loving thing I can do
for you guys is to try to takehim out.
Right, john 15, 13,.
There's no greater love thanthis, than one to lay down his
life for his friends.
So if I were to somehow takehim out now, obviously, what is

(27:15):
the best way to be able to takeit out?
I don't want to kill someone.
Nobody wants to kill anyone.
Nobody wants that.
But the most loving thing thatyou can do for a society is to
protect a society against anindividual.
It's like, if you're going toerr on the side of grace, err on
the side of grace towards themasses, not towards the
individual.
Be gracious to the individual.
Well, what about the gracetowards the other people that

(27:37):
are going to be affected by this?
Yeah, oh, absolutely so.
I mean, I have lots of quotesand scriptures.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
I definitely want you to jump back in on all those.
Let me just say this what'ssignificant about Genesis 9-6,?
Whoever sheds man's blood byman, his blood shall be shed,
for he is an image of God, as hemade man Mark.
As you just read, thesignificance, I think, of this
verse, and to me what'sconvincing, as it relates to the
death penalty, is that this ispre-law, because sometimes, you

(28:07):
know, we'll cite verses that arewithin the law and we
understand that the ceremonial,the civil, the sacrificial
systems of the law.
Those don't apply to us anymore.
But this is pre-law, and Ithink it's a statement made by
God about the significance ofHis image being imprinted on

(28:29):
others.
And then, oscar, I want you tojump in on this, but here's
another passage I think that inthe New Testament makes me think
okay, well, this aligns withthat.
Romans 13, 1-4,.
Let every soul be subject to thegoverning authorities, for
there is no authority exceptfrom God.
The authorities that exist areappointed by God.
Therefore, whoever resists theauthority resists the ordinance

(28:51):
of God, and those who resistwill bring judgment on
themselves, for rulers are not aterror to good works, but to
evil.
Do you want to be unafraid ofthe authority?
Do what is good and you willhave praise from the same, for
he is God's minister to you forgood.
But if you do evil, be afraid,for he does not bear the sword
in vain, for he is God'sminister and avenger to execute

(29:15):
wrath on him who practices evil.
So those two passages for meare the strongest texts in
Scripture to say look, this iswhat God said pre-law.
And then this is what the NewTestament says about the
governing authorities that don'tbear the sore and pain and they
execute wrath, vengeance fromGod on evildoers.

(29:35):
So, oscar, I'd love to hearyour thoughts and your
perspective on this whole thing.
Yeah, thanks.

Speaker 4 (29:41):
Let me start by saying what I said before we hit
record, which is I'm reallyeager.
What I said before we hitrecord, which is I'm really
eager to sit at this table withyou guys.
As I was kind of readingthrough my notes last night, I
was getting excited to listen toyou guys because I highly
respect you guys.
I have so much to learn.
I'm the youngest not only byage but by salvation Christian

(30:04):
in the room, and so I have somuch to learn and the blessing
of being able to just sit andlisten to your guys's
perspective is super valuable tome.
On top of that, um, what Imentioned earlier is this is
something that I've thought alot about over the years.
I've read about and I do sit inconflict.
I don't some some days I'm for,some days I'm against.
And just as an example two oflike the heroes of the faith for

(30:27):
me that if you listen to thepodcast, you've heard me quote
over and over again Augustineand CS Lewis, augustine against
CS Lewis, for.
And so, just like, even as Iread, even as I look at my
library, there's a conflictthere.
So, truly, I approach this withhumility.
In my notes I have itcategorized as like thoughts
against capital punishment andthoughts for capital punishment

(30:49):
and thoughts for capitalpunishment, and both are equal
and both often contradict oneanother.
Just kind of letting you intomy perspective, or at least the
way I'm approaching thisconversation.
So there's three areas.
Oh, one other thing.
There's actually a really great.
You mentioned thecharitableness and the
willingness to come to theconversation.
There's actually a really greatdialogue between Bob Thune and

(31:11):
Matthew Arbo online.
Matthew Arbo wrote an articleagainst capital punishment, bob
Thune responded, and then theyrespond back and forth and, man
aside, from where you stand, theway they honored one another,
treated each other with respectand dignity and were speaking

(31:31):
generously towards the otherperson is commendable, and so I
just think it's a not only isthe great way to reflect on this
conversation, but it's also agreat example on how to lovingly
disagree and they challengeeach other, but in a way that
you feel like is almost like hey, double down here, what do you
mean by that?
And so, just as a heads up.

(31:52):
So anyways, there's sort ofthree different ways that you
can look at a hesitation towardscapital punishment.
One is philosophical in nature,and this is I'm borrowing from
Augustine.
He argues that punishment isnot about.
He argues that punishment isnot about.
He mentions that punishment isabout truth telling and

(32:13):
transformation, not justretribution.
And so he says that executionfails as a tool to teach.
The dead can't repent, he wouldargue.
And again, this is where it'snot just a liberal argument,
it's a great question thatAugustine asks.
He thinks it's paradoxical thatkilling somebody could affirm

(32:35):
the value of life.
Now, I'm going to contradictmyself later because CS Lewis
goes against that.
But he would say that killingsomeone he says basically to
look and say to commit murder,to kill, is to mar the image of
God.
We are image bearers of God andso what makes it wrong to kill
a person, not a pig, is that aperson bears the image of God.
You are marring an image of thealmighty, and so he says, in

(32:59):
order to cause justice, we haveto again mar the image of
another image bearer of God.
And he is struggling with thatright Practical concerns.
This is actually something youjust brought up, ray, and I love
that you did, and this issomething that both sides, like
even those who are for capitalpunishment, like you just did,

(33:19):
recognize.
We live in a flawed justicesystem, and because we live in a
flawed justice system.
There's practical concerns taxpaying.
In California it's estimatedthat we pay about $137 million
for people on death row, versuslife sentences is only 11.5
million a year.

(33:40):
I don't know how that mathworks out, but apparently it's
cheaper to keep them alive.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
Well, it takes us a bullet.
How much does a bullet cost?

Speaker 4 (33:46):
Yeah, there's a lot of legal ramifications and
things of that nature.
I don't know the economicsbehind it, but that's what it
says.
So and you brought up thispoint, since 1973, at least 200
people who were sentenced todeath in the US has been
exonerated.
A 2014 study showed that 4.1%of death row inmates are

(34:10):
actually innocent, which is wild.
It kind of goes to that sayingof like I'd rather let a hundred
guilty men live than oneinnocent men die.
4.1% is nothing to balk at.
There's a disproportionateapplication.
50% of death row inmates arepeople of color.
Most executions are people whocommitted crimes against white

(34:33):
victims despite being black.
140 people have been exonerated.
I already said that Nearly alldeath row inmates couldn't
afford private legal defense.
Again, this goes to the ideathat maybe there's quite a bit
of them there that are actuallyinnocent.
71% of wrongful convictionsinvolved eyewitnesses who are

(34:53):
misidentifying somebody orincluded false confessions.
So the conclusion to Ray'spoint is we all agree this is a
flawed system.

Speaker 3 (35:05):
Let me jump in, oscar , and then I want you to talk
about the positive in a littlebit.
But, mark, I'd like yourthoughts on this because I think
one of the things we need to becareful about is sentimentality
.
Right, like that aspect of Idon't like it, or it just
doesn't feel right to me,because that's often the

(35:27):
philosophy behind even abortion,right, don't you hear people
say stuff like that, like youknow, but my life, my future,
how, why should I?
This child's going to live inpoverty, right?
Stuff like that we have to becareful of.
That is what I'm saying.
Yeah, of course, and to becautious, but what do you think
of the aspect of, like whatAugustine is saying in terms of

(35:49):
you know, this is something thatyou know.
What was it I was trying to?

Speaker 4 (35:54):
remember the point Death is marring the image of
God, and so then, capitalpunishment is again marring the
image of God.

Speaker 3 (36:01):
Yeah, the whole issue of this is marring the image of
God and, looking at it fromlike, we don't do this to people
, but it's almost like saying,hey, we don't put animals, we
don't put humans in cages,that's for animals, is my
thought.
Do you think there's somethingdeeper behind it we need to
think about in this regard?

Speaker 2 (36:23):
Yeah, let me say this it's my understanding that
Augustine was not entirelyagainst the death penalty.
He thought that there couldpossibly be a better way, and I
think that he falls more intothe category of what Ray is
saying, that we need to becareful.
Right, mercy triumphs overjudgment, but judgment still
needs to be carried out right.

(36:44):
And so I do have a quote fromAugustine here in his book the
City of God, book 1, chapter 21,where he says it is in no way
contrary to the commandment Thoushalt not kill to wage war at
God's bidding or for therepresentatives of public
authority to put criminals todeath according to the law.
And then he gives a coupleexamples, right, so, for example
, you have to go commit war atGod's bidding, and he gives

(37:07):
other examples.
But then he gets into talkingabout justice go commit war at
God's bidding, and he givesother examples, but then he gets
into talking about justice.
So I do believe that you'reonto something here, that you're
right, and I think that he'sagreeing with us.
I think he goes a little stepfurther, though.

Speaker 4 (37:16):
Yeah, he's complicated.

Speaker 2 (37:17):
Yeah, yeah, but I don't think that we can
blanketly say like put them todeath, and I don't think any of
us would say that unless it isabsolutely clear-cut.

Speaker 3 (37:26):
So Mark, do you?

Speaker 2 (37:34):
because I didn't ask for your position.
You stand kind of with Ray onthat in terms of like, yes, but
we have to be really careful,yeah, we need to be very, very
careful, right.
And so I mean, I did sayearlier that I'm for the death
penalty because it's good for asociety to remove plagues, right
.
And so I would say, though thisperson obviously is an image
bearer that they are, there's adanger attached to that.
You think of, like in SaudiArabia, right, if you get caught

(37:57):
stealing, there's some placeswhere they'll cut off your hand,
and then what does that do?
That lowers the stealingcapacities, and there's actual
examples where people have leftiPads and money on cars and
stuff and they should watch.
People are just going to walkon by because they know this is
not theirs.
When you lower the bar and yousay, hey, anything can happen,

(38:20):
because man is innately evil andtheir hearts are deceitful and
desperately wicked, above allthings, you give them a very
long leash and they're going todo whatever they are kind of
programmed to be able to do.
I really enjoy this scripturefrom James that's dealing with
the New Testament a little bit.
Some people can argue well,that's all Old Testament, but
James 2.13, which EZ obviouslyhas memorized because he has a

(38:43):
third of the New Testament booksmemorized but it says for
judgment is without mercy to onewho has shown mercy.
But mercy triumphs overjudgment.
Right Judgment is without mercyto one who has shown no mercy.
And if God has established therulers, the leaders, the judges,
a judicial system, that Godputs kings into place and stuff

(39:03):
like things of that nature, Ithink, because of where we're at
within our judicial system,that it would make sense.
John Calvin, he said theexecution of the law is not
cruelty but mercy to thecommunity.
And that's what I'm talkingabout, that there is a mercy and
a grace to the community bygetting rid of that person who

(39:24):
is a scar to that community.
You can resort to devil'sadvocate, then just put them
away, remove them from a society.
Well, I don't think that onceagain lines up with what we're
seeing here inside the NewTestament.
Sproul, he said capitalpunishment is not simply a
matter of retribution, it is amatter of honoring the sanctity

(39:45):
of life, that we are honoringthe beauty of life by removing
lives that are trying to destroyinnocent human lives.

Speaker 4 (39:55):
Yeah, similar to CS Lewis's argument.

Speaker 3 (39:57):
Yeah, j Warner Wallace, I think, really really
put it well.
He said capital punishmentisn't about revenge, it's about
affirming the value of thevictim, and there is that aspect
of it as well.
Like a lot of times when peoplearen't put to death, on the
flip side, where justice isn'tdone, they end up getting
paroled, they end up gettingreleased when they took

(40:18):
someone's life and then they doit again.
We never talk about that aspectof it, those that are released
and go out and do it again.
And so there's you know there'sa lot to it.
Ray, you went out on thestreets and asked people about
this actually specifically, yeah, and I was very, very surprised
.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
We're not surprised, but so many young people are
against the death penalty likegrit gritted teeth against it
until I asked them pro choicewhat's that?
yeah, they're pro-choice, thesame.
But when I asked them thisquestion if your mother was um,
raped viciously and stabbed todeath, do you think the murderer
should be put to death?
And they immediately said yes.

(40:53):
And I said that shows the valueyou put on your mother's life,
but you have no value for thelife of the person that's
viciously murdered.
As you were saying about peoplereoccurring crimes, there's a
man in California jail.
He's very happy because there'sno death sentence in California
.
He's the most convicted man inUS history, prolific serial

(41:16):
killer.
His name is Samuel Little.
He's confessed to 93 murdersand the FBI crime analysis
believe all his confessions arecredible.
Law enforcement has been ableto verify 50 of those
confessions, many more pendingfinal confirmation.
Little says he strangled 93victims between 1970 and 2005.

(41:37):
He killed 93.
This is where the deathsentence works.
If you put a man to deathbecause he strangled one woman,
he's not going to do it again.
And he's done it again andagain 93 people murdered because
California doesn't have anyguts to stand up for that, which
is right.
No value in the lives of thesepeople.

Speaker 3 (41:57):
Right.
As Spurgeon said, a communitythat fosters mercy without
justice encourages sin, and Ithink that's so true.
It's the aspect of showing like, hey, this is serious, you've
taken someone's life.
And again, if I put asidesentimentality, if I put aside
what I may feel like okay as aChristian, I think Christians

(42:19):
should be going to those ondeath row and preaching the
gospel to them.
You know that they get savedand get right with God, but that
doesn't mean that they're.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
That's exactly what we do, yeah, every day.
Amen.
We witness to people who are ondeath row.
Everybody's waiting to diebecause God's proclaimed the
death sentence upon them.
We're going to be executed.
Death is the arresting officerthat takes sinners before the
judgment bar of a holy God.
And that's what we do.
We preach to people who are ondeath row.

(42:47):
Very sobering thought, isn't?

Speaker 4 (42:48):
it Big time.
That was actually one ofAugustine's arguments as well,
being hesitant to agree with it.
It's funny, I should clarify.
I don't want to make Augustinesound monolithic in nature.
I think often people willmisquote Augustine to argue for
just war and against just war,for death penalty and against
death penalty.
Augustine, his views on a lotof things, progressed over time

(43:12):
from city of God to confessions,and so you have to read the
totality of Augustine andunderstand him, and even then it
can be a little bit complicated.
So one of the points thatAugustine made and this will be
the last point I probably makeagainst it, augustine argued
that clemency allows forrepentance.
So he made the point that, likeexecuting somebody cuts them
off from the possibility ofconversion.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
He valued the potential of somebody getting
saved so much that he wanted tokeep them around as long as
possible, and then- If I couldtalk to Augustine now, I'd say
what about the 93 women thatwere strangled to death, that
had no chance to come torepentance?

Speaker 3 (43:49):
Yeah, for sure I would say.
You know, within a societywhere Christians have
opportunity for influence, thatyou know, there could be those
mechanisms where that person isgiven the gospel and has the
opportunity to get right withGod.
But that doesn't eliminate theconsequences Like we've talked

(44:10):
about before.
I may have a friend that I love.
He comes into my house and hemakes a pass at my wife.
Well, I'm going to forgive him,I'm commanded to, but he's not
coming into my house and beingaround my wife again.
So it's that sort of thing, andI think that.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
What's his name?
Eze sort of thing, and I thinkthat what's his name is he
Jalabooksy, jalabooksy.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
Can I say something really quick about Oscar here?
This is what I love about Oscar, honestly.
I love the fact that you knowin this what we're doing here,
that we're not just all inagreement because you believe it
.
Right, it's?
Who was it that said unless youcan convince me from Scripture,

(44:53):
right, and this is what Oscar'sdoing convince me from
Scripture, all right.
So that's a beautiful sentiment.
As terrible as it is, it'sstill a beautiful.
I see what you're saying.
Oscar can say now, convince mefrom Scripture.
Because, still, if somebody hasand to your point, augustine,
if somebody has the opportunityto repent over these few years,

(45:17):
then why not give them thatopportunity to repent, to which
we would come along and saypreach them the gospel on their
deathbed before the firing squadcomes out.
And that just recently happened, a couple months ago, where
somebody you know with thefiring squad, and I get it.
But this is what I love aboutOscar.
He's just saying guys.
And then what I love aboutLiving Waters and I love about

(45:38):
we go to different churches,right, that we agree on primary,
essential issues, and I'm goingto be like the Bereans, who are
more noble-minded than those inThessalonica, and show me and
then, at the end of the day, ifwe disagree, we're still going
to go get in and out and we'restill going to leak arms and
we're still going to share thegospel and we're still going to
go do those things.

(45:58):
I hungry, so I love that.
I love this about Oscar.

Speaker 3 (46:02):
No, it's a way that it should be.
All of us should have thosehearts that say man, I want to
conform to what God's word says,you know, and be in line with
it.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
Easy.
I've been going out for thelast week and asking people
about because this is such ahigh profile issue with what's
going on in New York that guythat shot the insurance guy, ceo
in the back, a loving father, aloving husband, and when I've
given them the scenario if yourmother was raped and strangled
or stabbed to death, a couple ofguys have said to me I wouldn't
trust the justice system, Iwould kill them myself.

(46:36):
I remember seeing that in thevideo.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:40):
And that's cool.
I said that's murder, you can'tdo that.
And they said, yeah, I knowit's vigilantism and scripture
makes provision for that.
We've got sanctuary cities inthe US at the moment which are
perversions of the setup ofScripture.
Correct me if I'm wrong, butsanctuary cities were for people
who had lost a loved one andwanted to take revenge, and so
the murder that wasn't convictedor was convicted was to go to a

(47:03):
sanctuary city to findsanctuary.

Speaker 3 (47:04):
Yeah, it was for someone who unintentionally
killed someone.
It wasn't like murder, but itwas an accident, but still the
avenger of blood.
So they'd go and they'd be safethere.

Speaker 4 (47:15):
Real quick, sorry, just to wrap up, because then I
want to share my thoughts inregards to why I am also on the
other side of it, which is Iused to look at.
I struggle with Genesis 9-6.
You made an excellent point,which is that a lot of people to
look at.
I still I struggle with Genesis9, 6.
You made an excellent point,which is that a lot of people

(47:38):
will look at Genesis 9 and gowell, you know, that's a civil
law, that's old law, but youmade a really good point in
which you connect it to thecreation covenant, the creation
mandate be fruitful and multiply, and one of the arguments that
I guess I struggle with again isI fully agree with that, but
then it's like okay, well, ifthat's connected and therefore
for all people at all times, asone theologian pointed out, if

(48:02):
you're going to take Genesis 6,as for all people at all times,
then why not take Genesis 4,sorry.
Genesis 9 verse 6, why not takeGenesis four Genesis, sorry.
Genesis nine verse six.
Why not take Genesis nine versefour, which is, however, you
must not eat meat with itslifeblood in it and I will
require a penalty for yourlifeblood.
So, in other words, I willrequire it from any animal, from
any human.
So in other words, like it'sconnecting them all together.

(48:23):
Now, again, this is just aplace of struggle.
With that said, let me turn thecorner.
You guys brought up a reallygood point, and this is sort of
CS Lewis's point.
You said well, what abouthonoring the dignity, the image
bearing quality of the victim?
But CS Lewis takes it a stepfurther.
He says just punishment isactually honoring the imagearing

(48:47):
quality of the personcommitting the crime,
recognizing their need for moralobligation and responsibility.
In other words, he points outthat you are honoring the
image-bearing quality in theperpetrator by holding them
accountable in this kind of way,which is a fascinating argument
.

Speaker 3 (49:07):
Yeah, no, that is really good way, which is a
fascinating argument.
Yeah, no, that is really good.
And again we forget thedeterrent element and aspect of
the death penalty.
First, let me just say here inthe United States, boy, I mean,
some people are on death row foryears, years and years.
So it's not like.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
They live longer than most because they're away from
viruses and Club Med some ofthem.

Speaker 3 (49:31):
I mean it really is a Club Med, a lot of these places
, and that was the other aspect.
I was going to say that it'salmost a reward to some.
You know, I've heard ofcriminals that like will commit
a crime intentionally again togo back to prison.
They got a roof over their head, they got three square meals,
they can exercise, they canHealthcare yeah, healthcare, I
mean, I know education.
People get their masters andPhDs in prison.

(49:52):
You know, again, not toover-glamorize it, but just
saying that Besides, it's nicerthan working here.

Speaker 4 (50:00):
We can take care of that.
I'll stay here for you, noproblem.

Speaker 3 (50:04):
But yeah, there's that element of remembering that
, that you know and here's whatwe have to remember In many
cases you didn't just take thelife of a person and it stops
there.
You took someone's fathersomeone's husband.
You took someone whocontributed to society Maybe it

(50:26):
was a doctor.
You killed this insurancecompany guy who's helping people
, Right, you also murdered theirdescendants, Exactly.
In some cases, right, You'rekilling descendants because that
person you know could procreateand have more children or have
children period.
So, right, we have to thinkthrough stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
Yeah, some people point to Jesus and say he was
against the death sentencebecause the woman caught in
adultery was going to be put todeath and he stopped it.
But what we don't realize is hewas on his way to Jerusalem to
be executed on her behalf andthen Jesus told us he that's
without sin, let him cast thefirst stone at her.
And if there's anyone thatcould have cast a stone at her,

(51:07):
it was Jesus, because he waswithout sin.
But the reference, I think, isto the fact that there's a stone
coming to all of humanity.
Jesus said, speaking of thewrath, of the law that's going
to come, and when you grindsomething to powder, you do a
thorough job.
There's nothing left, and God'sjustice is going to be thorough

(51:30):
on that day, right down to thethoughts and intents of the
heart.
Every idle word that a manspeaks, he will give it account
thereof on the day of judgment.
So to say, there's a differencebetween the Old Testament God
and the New Testament.
God is erroneous.
God is just as wrath-filled.
In fact, if you read Hebrews 10, verse 28 and 29, anyone who
has rejected Moses' law diedwithout mercy on the testimony

(51:52):
of two or three witnesses.
Of how much more worsepunishment, do you suppose?
Will he be thought worthy whohas trampled the Son of God
underfoot and counted the bloodof the covenant by which he was
sanctified a common thing andinsulted the spirit of grace?
So how much more sore apunishment.
So living under grace doesn'tmean that we're exonerated from

(52:13):
God's wrath and without theSavior we're under his wrath.

Speaker 4 (52:18):
Mercy and grace ought to be distinct, because you
mentioned it earlier, which islike we believe in justice.
Justice requires a justresponse, right, but mercy and
grace are two different things.
Grace is afforded by the cross,Mercy isn't necessarily
afforded by the cross, and aprime example, just to add to
what you're saying, is that somepeople would argue well, when
Jesus says you know, you'veheard it say I for an I, but I'm

(52:40):
saying forgive, the argumentagainst that is yeah, but he's
talking about personalretribution In no way, shape or
form is he, they would argue, isarguing against the civil
function of justice, and anexample of that is the thief on
the cross.
Jesus turns to him and forgiveshim, says today you'll be with
me in paradise, and yet he'sstill going to pay the
punishment of his civil crime onthe cross.

Speaker 1 (53:03):
There's a wonderful plan beginning right now.

Speaker 3 (53:07):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, oscar, because
I was going to mention that it'simportant for us to distinguish
between our personalresponsibility as believers and
how we respond to people andengage, and then the
responsibilities of a civilgovernment established by God,
who doesn't bear the sword invain, who executes vengeance and
wrath.

(53:27):
Right, mark?
I mean we have to make thatdistinction because people
cherry-pick as opposed to takingScripture in context.
I'd love you to speak to thatthe importance of hermeneutics
when it comes to the Word.

Speaker 2 (53:43):
Yeah, we need to be careful with proof texts.
Right, I have this single verseand then, therefore, I have all
of my theology based upon thesingle text.
And what is the line that asingleGreta Kockle says never
read a Bible verse?
I go well, what do you mean bythat?
She says I'll never read asingle Bible verse.

Speaker 4 (54:01):
That's good.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
Right.
So a single verse by itself iseasily taken out of context and
becomes a pretext for everythingout of context, right?
So we need to be careful withthat.
And so we believe thatScripture interprets Scripture,
that we look at the totality ofScripture, from Genesis 1-1 to
Revelation 22-21, we see thetotality of God's heart towards

(54:23):
mankind and how valuable God'sWord is and how we need to
esteem it as much as he esteemsit.
In fact, if we look at Acts 25,verse 11, the Apostle Paul says
if I'm a wrongdoer, I do notseek to escape death.
He's saying, listen, if I'mguilty, then justice says that I

(54:43):
should be put to death.
I get it, I'm going to comealong, right.
And so I look at that and I go,well, yeah, let's interpret
Scripture amongst the Scripture.
And when we have a properhermeneutic, well then we can
have a proper conversation.
Proper hermeneutics have properconversations.
Good theology leads to gooddoxology, how we live and move

(55:03):
and carry and have conversationsone with another.
So, yeah, a proper hermeneutic,herman who Todd Friel would say
, herman who Hermeneutics.
It's just.
How do we interpret Scripture?
How do we know God's heartconcerning anything?
Let's always turn to Scripture,and how neat would it be to
always have a verse whensomebody says something.

Speaker 4 (55:22):
You put it really well and it reminded me of
Rachel Denhollander's impacttestimony.
I don't know if you guysremember this or not, but she
was the first person, I think,to come forward for when Larry
Nassar was sexually abusing allof those Olympic girls, underage
minors.
I mean, I can't remember thenumber, but it was a lot.

(55:43):
And, man, her impact testimonyis.
So if you haven't seen it, youshould go online and watch it,
but she forgave him right, itwill bring you to tears.
Yes, yes and Right, it broughtme to tears and I went and read
her book what Is a Girl Worth?
It's phenomenal.
But even if you just watch theimpact story, so she stands up,
he is guilty, it's done, it'sjust a matter of judge is gonna

(56:13):
determine life or whatever thecase.
And all these girls, one by one, came up and how dare you?
And expletives, and you didthis to me and my life has
changed forever and I can't, andyou understand their pain.
I mean they want him to receivethe fullness of the wrath of
the court system.
Rachel Denhollander comes upthere and she's like you deserve
the fullness of the wrath ofthe justice system, but also I'm
praying for your salvation.
She points out like this wrathis merciful compared to the

(56:39):
wrath of God and man.
It's a prime example offorgiveness without losing sight
of justice.

Speaker 3 (56:48):
Yeah and Ray, there is the aspect man.
What in the world?

Speaker 1 (56:52):
There seems to be a tadpole in your throat, trying
to evolve into a frog.
Try to drown it.

Speaker 3 (56:56):
Drain it.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
Drain it.
You think you've got water inthere I tried.

Speaker 3 (56:59):
So, Ray, hey, what's that doing?

Speaker 2 (57:01):
there, that's your water.
Ah, you licked the water.
I already poured mine in my cup.

Speaker 3 (57:05):
But so but, ray, there is the aspect of the
victims of that person.
It's not mine, it's yours.

Speaker 2 (57:15):
It must have been yours.
There were four.

Speaker 1 (57:17):
Oscar's got his that water, that you're drinking is
from a month ago.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
Do I get the?

Speaker 1 (57:20):
death penalty for that?
Yes, no mercy I'm getting thedeath penalty.
We're going to drown you for it.

Speaker 3 (57:25):
But, ray, there is that aspect too of the victim
who has the knowledge of, like,for example, like we've talked
about, the mass murder, thatperson that murdered 90 people,
93.
93.
Or let's take the Unabomber, orlet's take those that have just
huge, heinous crimes.
Richard Ramirez, right, thethought, the torment he could
escape.

(57:45):
What if he escapes?
What if he comes, for me andthe rest of our family?
I mean, there is that aspect ofit too, for the victims.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
Yeah, absolutely and absolutely.
I've got nothing for you.
I totally agree.

Speaker 2 (58:02):
I remember there was a time when I was homeless right
and it was during the time ofRichard Ramirez, and I remember
we had a relative that took inmy family and I remember living
on sleeping on the floor.

Speaker 1 (58:16):
So you better give a little background, because this
is a local.
Thing.
Richard Ramirez yeah, he wasknown as the Night Stalker.
Night Stalker, yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:22):
And I remember being scared that I did not want to
sleep outside.
And I remember going overtowards the windows and closing
the windows and trying Iremember distinctively trying to
lock a lock that would not lockon the window near where I was
sleeping on the floor, scared todeath.
This is exactly.

(58:43):
This is like what we're talkingabout.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
Well, they couldn't catch him, could they they?

Speaker 2 (58:46):
couldn't.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
Was it eight people he killed in the LA area?

Speaker 4 (58:49):
Yeah, one in Orange County, right.
What catch him could theykilling?
It was eight people he killedin the la area.
Yeah, one of those, right?
What's that family in orangecounty?

Speaker 1 (58:51):
yeah and he would?
Would he carve a demonic signinto?

Speaker 3 (58:54):
their body.
Yeah, pentagram or something,yeah, and then you had jeffrey
dahmer.
You know who was eating peopleand he killed them first yeah,
oh, just just insane.
so I think, guys, to sum it up,I think it's crucial that there
is care involved in this.
You do have those clear-cutcases where there's no question,

(59:17):
even the murderer confesses.
I mean, imagine in California amurderer confesses to being a
serial killer and then we stillwon't put him to death.
I mean, there's no fear therethat there could be a mistake.
He's admitting it, we haveforensic evidence that is
unquestionable and yet theystill won't do it.
And I think that the goodpoints that we've covered are

(59:39):
the fact that this is honoringthe dignity and value of that
person.

Speaker 1 (59:44):
Just got to say I'll just jump in here because we're
in California and California isadamantly against the death
sentence and adamantly forabortion-like you wouldn't,
believe, especially the governorat the present time he will fly
you across to California tokill your baby.
And yet they let a guy who'sconfessed to 93 murders taking

(01:00:06):
the lives of women 93 of themand he's living a life that's.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
And he wants to put an abortion mill in every
university in.
California.

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
Man.
I talk about judgment.
Man, you think of the day ofjudgment for someone like that
and the reckoning before theLord?
There's such a blindness whenit comes to those that are drunk
with power, a blindness when itcomes to those that are drunk
with power a blindness.
It's almost this invincibilitycomplex that I've talked about.
They're so foolish.

(01:00:37):
Their life is a breath.
They're going to stand before aholy God and Ray, this is what
you speak to all the time abouthell.
If there wasn't a hell, thenpeople like Hitler and some of
these atrocious murderers thatwe were talking about, that's it
.

Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
Nothing.
Yeah, it's survival of thefittest, that's all.
He was fit, but Jews weren't.

Speaker 3 (01:01:00):
Yeah, well, guys, may the Lord help us to continue to
examine the Scriptures, tothink through these things, to
talk about them, to discuss themand again to fall back
ultimately on what the designerof man has said is best you know
and what should happen.
But let's not be glib, let'snot take these things lightly

(01:01:23):
and let's show charity as wediscuss these things.

Speaker 4 (01:01:26):
One thing real quick, just towards the younger
Christians out there.
You know, no amount of reading,no amount of online research,
of YouTubing, of chat GPTing cando what God means to do in
fellowship.

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
In other words I can.

Speaker 4 (01:01:44):
I can learn as much, I can gather as much data as I
as I can through reading andobserving, but wisdom comes
through fellowship.
And so one thank you, guys, forfellowship, but also two for
those out there that love tothink deeply about these things
do it in the context offellowship.

Speaker 3 (01:02:02):
Amen.
Hey, look, find your own LivingWaters podcast crew and do what
we do here.
All we do is sit around andfellowship.
That's what this is.

Speaker 4 (01:02:15):
It's not like we do this and we walk away unaffected
.

Speaker 3 (01:02:17):
We never talk to each other other than this, but we
walk away, impacted ourselvesbecause truth has been dispensed
.
We've engaged on truth andthat's the element that you
can't get from the artificialsocial media and online world.
You don't get the organic backand forth, iron sharpening, iron
, fellowship.
So all right, friends, thereyou have it.

(01:02:39):
Don't forget the track samplepack Living Waters mug, the
Evidence Study Bible, livingWaters TV and the podcast
YouTube channel.
Check out all of our stuff atlivingwaterscom and remember
friends podcasts atlivingwaterscom and remember
friends podcasts atlivingwaterscom with all your
thoughts and criticisms of Ray,mark and Oscar.
Why are you laughing, ray?
Well?

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
I'm seeing the sanity meter as you're talking.
You go like it goes oh, he'salmost sane there talking
properly, and then straightafter that.
So the meter goes off thecharts every time you do that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:11):
Thank you for joining us, friends.
We'll see you here next time onthe Living Waters podcast,
where we have no idea what we'redoing.