June 26, 2025 • 62 mins
Communism’s rise began with Karl Marx, who introduced the idea of class struggle and critiqued capitalism in response to industrial-era poverty. Marx envisioned a classless society but as Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar point out, his philosophy extended beyond economics—it was rooted in atheism. Oscar shares how his first introduction to atheism came through Marxist economic literature, which proposed a godless utopia. Communism eventually took root in Russia and China, spreading fear of lost democracy. The guys note that socialism is often viewed as a bridge to communism, but a pure communist society has never existed due to the corrupting nature of human power.
The conversation emphasizes that capitalism, while often defended, is not flawless either. The gospel—not any man-made system—is the only sufficient answer to the world’s brokenness. Communism mimics Christianity in its pursuit of equality but rejects God’s sovereignty and misunderstands human nature. It promotes forced sharing instead of joyful stewardship. The guys agree: any ideology that excludes God becomes idolatry, offering a counterfeit redemption story. In contrast, the gospel leads people to good works driven by love, not compulsion. Scripture affirms the dignity of work and personal responsibility.
Oscar walks through how communism promises a classless utopia but fails because of a flawed view of the human condition. Power concentrated in godless hands leads to abuse. Those at the top of communist regimes often live in luxury while preaching sacrifice. The guys stress that human-led systems can't fix spiritual problems—only Christ can. They caution against defending capitalism blindly and urge believers to examine economic systems through a gospel-centered lens, digging deep into these issues before taking a firm stance.
Mark shares a powerful story of a prisoner in a communist regime who endured torture but clung to Christ, reminding us that no one can steal what we’ve surrendered to God. E.Z. recounts seeing the effects of communism in Cuba, yet witnessing thriving Christians. The guys remind us that God’s will is unstoppable. Even in North Korea where the gospel is not easily accessed, people have found ways to evangelize. Real change won’t come through politicians or ideologies but through Jesus. Love—the fruit of the gospel—is the answer to every societal dilemma. When we walk in love, we don’t seek loopholes or act out of greed. The only true solution to both capitalism’s flaws and communism’s promises is the gospel: Christ crucified, risen, and reigning.
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Visit the Living Waters website to learn more and to access helpful resources!
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You can connect with us at podcast@livingwaters.com. We're thankful for your input!
Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
But, ray, as far as communism goes, it goes beyond
economics Just slightly.
First of all and I'd like us todiscuss this communism's
rejection of God.
That's huge, you know.
In its Marxist-Leninist formit's basically built on an
atheistic, if you can even callit a worldview there's debate on
(00:22):
that but basically it's builton atheism.
Karl Marx is credited with thatfamous saying that religion is
the opium of the people or themasses Opiate.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Opium.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Opiate.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Yeah, communism seeks to imitate Christianity in that
sense, because you look at thebook of Acts, where they had all
things in common, but it wasgiven willingly, motivated by
love.
And what communism does iswe're going to share everything.
You're rich, so you're going todie so we can get you goods,
and that's what happens.
Atheistic communism has beenresponsible for more than 100
(00:57):
million deaths down through theyears, so it doesn't work
because it's tainted by sin as.
Oscar was saying doesn't workbecause it's tainted by sin, as
Oscar was saying it's nice whenyou're proven right, it's
wonderful when others are wrong.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
And you're beautifully and wonderfully
proven right.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
See, that was way off key.
It was bad.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Let me ask y'all a question.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Before you do so, do you ever listen to yourself and
then go?
That was good, I'm going tomove forward with that.
Did you do that with this?
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Joyfully, constantly and incessantly, although I do
freestyle sing so I don't havetime for your stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I'd like to hear you one day.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Let me ask y'all a question.
I'm going to do it, by the way,I am going to make y'all a
California word.
Good luck Y'all.
We don't believe in luck.
Mark, let's say you moved fromthe US to England and you lived
in England for 35 years.
(02:01):
Who would be better in tunewith the American accent?
You, or someone who never leftAmerica, continues to live in
America and speaks with theAmerican accent every day?
Don't answer that.
That's a rhetorical question.
So yesterday I was on a podcastwith someone you're on the
(02:23):
podcast with.
You're on a podcast with Idon't know if you guys have been
on with him yet Brad Ogg fromNew Zealand.
Isn't he a cool guy?
But he's especially awesomebecause of his validation of my
New Zealand accent.
Really, validation.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
There's no way he could have done that there's no
way he could have done that.
Yes, he said it's on you soundcloser to Chinese than you do.
New Zealand accent how?
Speaker 4 (02:48):
weird.
When I was on with him hewasn't intoxicated.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
That's what it was.
So anyway, I'm vindicated man,it feels so good.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
It doesn't take much for you to feel vindicated, does
it?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
That's true.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
Oh boy, that was a fun podcast.
What a cool guy.
Yeah, his podcast is awesometoo.
He uh interviews christians,apologists, but also
professional athletes, I thinkactors and so he's got a
gathering in new zealand oflisteners that are both
christian and non-christian yes,I think he started out doing
like sports stuff.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, he does an amazing job because he's
completely deaf.
You know what's that?
Speaker 1 (03:28):
I'm sure he'll be looking for losers.
You know, you brought upEngland.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
I'm going to be at the Ambassador's Academy in
England with John Harris.
Let me pull up that date here.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Who's our?
Speaker 3 (03:40):
UK agent.
He is our UK agent, and if youare in Lincoln or near Lincoln,
england, is this going to airMark or post at the time before
you're there?
Yeah well, it's May 28th, oh,28th, 29th and 30th and 31st, so
2025.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Lincoln's, near Nottingham.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
It's north, it's of wherever.
If you're south, it would benorth, and if you're north, it
would be south.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Ray, tell us about Barnsley.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Barnsley.
My wife was born in Barnsley.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Aye, aye she was aye.
Which is northern district ayeBarnsley.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Side note we do have quite a bit of listeners in
Europe.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Quite a bit we do.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
If, if you guys are interested, not only that event,
but if you check out the LivingWaters Europe page, john Harris
, both on YouTube and on thewebsite, does amazing stuff.
There's tons of resourcesavailable specifically for your
cultural context.
So, whether it's Living WatersEurope's YouTube channel website
, I'd love his YouTube channelto take off.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
He does a great job, yeah, so check that out.
He's doing pretty well.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
I think he's got over 30,000 subscribers, which is
good.
Yeah, oscar.
By the way, your hair looksreally nice.
Well, thank you.
Can't say the same forGrandma's sweater, but the hair,
the hair Says the guy who onlyshops at Severs.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
I'm wise with my money.
I'm wise with my money.
The guy's got a monthlysubscription to Warehouse.
It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Have you ever let your hair grow more than an inch
and a half?
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Me.
Yes, my hair doesn't grow out,it grows up, that's good, a
Lebanese fro would be epic.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Do it With a side shave.
Can you do that please?
Speaker 4 (05:19):
No, not a side shave Just up, just tabbouleh gel in
it Just a booby gel.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Bring back the flat top dude.
Oh man, kid and play.
You guys remember kid and play.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
No.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Totally Whatever, yeah, Anyway, I was going to say
something, but I can't remember.
Oh so Brad asked me somethinginteresting yesterday, Last
question of the podcast.
He said you, Mark Ray and Oscar, stranded on a deserted island.
Who do we eat first?
Speaker 4 (05:47):
What would the scenario be like?
Who would you eat first.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Thanks a lot.
I'd be tough Ray, of course.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Well, let me say this I probably want to.
You're the first one to goright, because you're absolutely
useless 100%.
But, I will say Ray is theclosest person to MacGyver I
have ever met.
This is true.
We need him to survive.
He has the ability to figurethings out that we would not be
able to figure out.
Just give him a paperclip andsome belly button lint and he'll
be able to survive for years.
(06:14):
And a chicken, oh man, and achicken.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Two chickens we feed easy to the wolves, tobias time.
This island has walls For noreason, for no reason, for no
reason For entertainment.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Just for fun.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yeah, oh boy, that would be something man.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Let's do it Something to behold.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Let's do it yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
It's bound to be an island by Tahiti.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
I said I would be first of all.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
I would immediately try to organize us establish
some sort of rule and law andcreate a clock somehow you were
stranded on the Cook Islands for12 hours and almost died.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Oh that was pretty crazy.
It'd be Lord of the Flies, Ithink.
That's what I said to him.
That's the first thing I said.
I said why watch Lord of theFlies?
I said Oscar would be diggingholes to try to find some lost
books.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Ray would be preaching the gospel to to find
some lost books.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Ray ray would be preaching the gospel to crabs
and seagulls and mannequins andmark would be looking for a
wiener schnitzel to destroy.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Now, right, right, mark, that's right I have not
eaten a wiener schnitzel sincethey came out with good for you.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
You're holding fast, huh mark.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
I am holding a fast.
It has not been easy, because Ialmost think about it daily.
That would actually be.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
Your struggle is what would we feed you?
Yeah, that's true, yeah, youwouldn't want to eat anything.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
You're the only one that would survive because you
can eat anything at any place.
It absolutely blows my mind.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Seriously, it's an exciting prospect to be stuck on
an island.
I I love Robinson Crusoe.
There's no internet.
You know that.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Oh no, laptops, never mind Forget it.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
That's the end of Ray .
Do you know?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Robinson Crusoe was a Christian novel Really.
Oh yes, he sought the Lord andwas full of scripture until it
came out on TV or the movies.
But it's amazing.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Daniel Defoe.
He was buried at Bunhill Fieldsin England.
I'm going to visit it nextmonth.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Really.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Yeah, he died.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
Spoiler alert.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Enough useless talk, friends.
By the way, we have with ustoday in the studio a couple of
very distinguished guests.
Please welcome Micah andDominic.
Yeah, in the house.
Great to have you guys.
All right?
Oh, by the way, sorry I didn'tdo that appropriately.
(08:31):
A shout out to Jesse.
I shared with you guys.
I was just at Granger Smith'splace.
What a great brother man.
Was Jesse's girl there?
Jesse's girl no, but Jesse, thepolice officer was there.
I sent you guys his video, oh,tremendous.
Yeah, I mean just to hear abouthow he's been impacted by the
(08:54):
podcast.
I mean, he got saved throughthe Mario video, got discipled
through the podcast.
God saved his marriage and thengot him into a sound church.
That's how we connected withGranger and he came over to the
studio where I was recording thepodcast with him and man it was
.
I mean he was in tears overwhat the Lord's done.
So, jesse, god bless you,brother, shout out to you and
(09:15):
hope to connect with you againhere before long.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Granger's sharp.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Oh, he's super sharp.
Yeah, so we'll be havingGranger on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Oh, really, I was very impressed when I did an
interview.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Oh, that's right he had you on too.
Yeah, I was there in person,Ray.
It's better in person.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
It's good, always good, to be there in person.
It means so much more.
All the time.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
All right, France, oh no, no, wait, wait, I have a
letter.
Oh time for a cool, classycomment.
This is what are you guystalking about over there?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Well, I just about blinded Mark.
I was really close.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
I did the old, but I felt the warmth of his eyes, the
three-stitches eye poke.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
I felt the warmth of his eyes.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah, we have a letter sent in.
We love letters that are sentin.
Wait, wait, let me see.
This is from Abigail, abigailmorris.
She sent us her graduationpicture if anyone could see this
pictures and, uh, she sent aletter with it in cursive.
I know, oh, yes, no, it's not,it's printed.
Uh, ray, easy, mark and oscar.
(10:16):
Hello friends, sorry I had todo it.
My name is abigail, I'm 18years old and graduating this
may.
I'm sending graduation cards toeveryone who has helped shape
me into the person I am today.
I'm sending one to y'all.
So I'm sending one to y'all.
I remember the first time Iwatched one of Ray's videos.
My dad showed it to me myfreshman year of high school and
(10:39):
I remember thinking two thingsthis is so cool and such a neat
and efficient way to share thegospel.
And two, this guy has a reallyneat accent.
Ray, you can pay me for sayingthat I take Venmo.
All jokes aside, watching theLiving Waters videos and
listening to the podcast hasgiven me so much confidence and
encouragement in my faith.
(10:59):
I have now gone on severalmissions trips, shared the
gospel unashamed and withcourage, and have learned so, so
much through your podcast,including a few good jokes about
who God is and who he hascalled me to be.
After I graduate high school, Iwill be a staff member at
Summit Ministries in July andAugust Summit Ministries.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
Hey let's go.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah, Our brother Jeff Myers.
He was here with you guys.
I wasn't here that day, butafter that I'm not sure what
will happen, but you have allmodeled what trusting and
seeking wisdom from God lookslike, and I know he has plans
(11:47):
for my life, even if I don'tknow what they are yet.
Thank y'all so much for yourlove, faithfulness and passion
for the Lord and the lost.
He has used y'all in so manyways and I'm so grateful for how
he has spoken through y'allinto my life.
Y'all keep the y'alls going.
I hope to meet y'all someday,but if not here on earth, then I
can't wait to worship the Lordalongside you all.
(12:09):
Six foot six hairy chested rayin the new heavens and new earth
, ps Easy.
I'll only worship alongside youif a glorified body means a
glorified singing voice.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Oh, she's got discernment.
Oh boy, Wise woman.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
All glory to Christ.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Oh, thank you so much .
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yeah, Abigail, what a blessing.
And where's that?
We gave it to our friendsAnyway thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
What did you just do?
How old are you?
Speaker 1 (12:42):
I'm putting it in my saved file down there.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Saved file.
No, it's my little thing downthere.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
All right, friends, and now Radically Revolutionary
Resources podcast is brought toyou by the Tract Starter Kit 350
Tracts.
Do you know what they are, ray,by the way?
Yes, they're wonderful.
What are they?
They're tracks.
You have no idea.
Ray came up with it and he hasno idea what it contains Million
dollar bill, ten Commandments,coin comic, good person track
(13:10):
and 101 of the world's funniestone-liners 101 of the world's
funniest one-liners yeah,they're really good.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah, they're funny.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
You can.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
We can't have everything.
Who led?
Speaker 1 (13:21):
the editor to redesign the cover.
We can't have everything.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Where would you put it?
Stuff like that?
Speaker 1 (13:26):
And don't forget the Living Waters mug, from which
you can take a chug.
Oh, by the way, Brad and I wedid a rap.
He beatboxed and I rapped aboutthe Living Waters mug yesterday
.
And don't forget the EvidenceStudy Bible.
It's liable to bring aboutrevival.
Living Waters TV.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Living Waters.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Would you swallow Oscar?
And don't forget, friends, thepodcast YouTube channel, guys,
this is where you get clips,little clips, snippets from the
podcast, where you see us,unfortunately, and hear our
voices together.
But I like these becausethey're like nuggets.
Yeah, they're cool, littlenuggets Four minutes long, yeah,
(14:08):
so check it out.
Living Waters Podcast channel,subscribe and share.
The topic for today is CozyingUp to Communists and we're going
to be examining Ray, mark andOscar's longstanding membership
in the Communist Party.
Who told them We'll start withCommunist Comrade Ray?
Cece, cece.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Come with Unist.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yeah, guys, boy, I'm, I'm really excited actually to
be tackling this weird, bizarresubject.
It really is bizarre.
Did you come up with it, oscar?
Someone came up with it, Idon't remember.
I don't remember.
But yeah, we're going toexamine the roots of communism
and why it's unbiblical.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
It is.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
You didn't know that.
Ray Huh Comrade, ray Stunned oh, I love that title for Ray.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
So yeah, so guys, communism Define that first easy
.
Yeah, so Com with.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Unism.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
So yeah, I mean communism.
I'd like to kind of get into alittle history of it and 1848.
Ray, how did you know that?
I knew it was born.
Beginning with Mr Karl Marx, Iknew I was born.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
And you sent me a meme Karl Marx's.
Oh, that was a good one.
Wait, what was it?
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Oh, got it.
I remember it.
No one ever talks about hissister.
Yeah, she invented.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
No, no, you got to say her name first, okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yeah, everyone always talks about Karl Marx.
No one ever talks about hissister Anya.
She invented the startingpistol.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Anya Marx.
That really made us laugh.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
That's pretty good, oh man, I love myself All right,
so yeah.
So basically, 1848, you getKarl Marx and Friedrich Engels.
They published what was calledthe Communist Manifesto and this
basically introduces the ideaof class struggle.
That's really kind of at theheart of communism, the
abolition of private propertyand basically a society where
(16:15):
the state owns everything.
I mean just as a non-starterright.
Like you would think, thecommon human being would pause a
minute and say, wait a minute,like there's something nefarious
and suspicious about this.
Then, in 1867, marx publishesDas Kapital.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
So you're talking about the Communist Manifesto
they published?
Yeah right, Very famous.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Yeah, but he publishes Das Kapital and then
he deepens his critique ofcapitalism and starts to lay the
foundation for really theMarxist economic theory.
And then from there, of course,you get the Russian Revolution
in 1917, you get the Bolsheviks,led by Vladimir Lenin.
He overthrows the Russianmonarchy, does away with it and
(16:59):
then establishes really theworld's first communist state,
russia, socialist state.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
Yeah, soviet socialist republic.
Yeah, it was more socialistthan communist.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah.
And then 24 to 53, you getStalin's regime, you know gets
radically brutal, and then thattransforms Russia into a
totalitarian state.
Millions of deaths through youknow what were called purges,
they forced famines, labor camps, yeah.
And then from there, 1949, youget the communist takeover in
(17:30):
China with Mao, and then 50s tothe 80s, the Cold War era.
Communism spreads to EasternEurope, north Korea, cuba,
vietnam, the US, and then theWestern nations start to oppose
it globally, along with the US,and obviously the fear was the
loss of democracy.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
And it looked like it was going that direction too.
When I was a kid, I used tolook at a world map and
everything red was communist andit was spreading right across
the whole world, yeah right.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
And then, of course, 1989.
Yes, mr Gorbachev Ray, finishit, tear down this world.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Wait he was in it you didn't know that, oscar.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
So that's kind of a you know sort of a sweeping
overview.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Can you say it again for those who fell asleep?
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Yeah, communism.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
What Reagan did was incredible.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
It really was.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah, and it was just a huge game chamber, game
chamber, game chamber.
Yeah, it's a game chamber.
It's where you've got a gameand you put it in a chamber, go
on.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
I'm done.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
But yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I remember seeing that it was just wonderful.
Every time I look at it itgives me goosebumps.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Yeah, no, that was definitely an iconic moment.
Yeah, Speaking of game chambers, I think it's important to
distinguish the differencebetween communism and socialism,
cause I think a lot of timeswhen you hear people talk,
especially online, they tend toblend those two things together
and not understand thedistinction between the two.
And I also think it's valuablebecause here's the thing.
(19:03):
I think, talking as Christians,it's easy for us to wag our
finger at socialism and say it'swrong.
But in everyday life, as you'rebumping up against, if you have
friends who are democraticsocialists, it's important for
us to understand what they'reaiming for, the longing of their
(19:24):
heart.
Because here's my big thing, mybig takeaway for this podcast
is, if you're going to argueagainst socialism, slash
communism with capitalism.
You're going to fail, andyou're gonna allow them to fail
too, because capitalism is notthe answer.
The gospel is the answer.
And so, in that sense, likeapproaching the conversation of
(19:45):
communism and socialism from agospel perspective rather than
arguing as a capitalist, it'sgonna help you in the long run.
And on that note, as you look atKarl Marx, especially in side
note, you guys probably recall,and maybe it's never connected
the dots for you, but do youremember my story about how I
became an atheist.
It was reading white papers byKarl Marx, and so my first
(20:10):
introduction to atheism was froma social, economic perspective,
not a philosophical one.
And then it gravitated intophilosophy and a lack of
religion or a hatred for faith.
And on that note, like I canthink back of Karl Marx's, his
angst you have to remember thathe was born shortly after the
French Revolution and during theIndustrial Revolution and the
(20:33):
Industrial Revolution wascreating a lot of problems,
especially in Europe.
Capitalism was creating poverty.
We have to recognize this as afact, because it wasn't just
Karl Marx that was concernedabout the direction of
capitalism.
A lot of philosophers wereconcerned about it too.
And the best way to describe itis like imagine you're a
carpenter living 150 milesoutside of London, england, and
(20:56):
your father and his father'sfather made a living making
chairs and tables, some of themfor your local people who lived
in your village, but others, youknow, somebody would come on by
and buy them from you and takethem to London where he can sell
them right.
And one day people stoppedbuying stuff from you because
they're buying tables and chairsthat are being made in
(21:19):
factories.
Not yet not yet, but yeah,that's the long game.
And so now they're buying fromthese factories.
They're cheaper, they'refalling apart more, but you
don't have work, and the onlyway for you to provide for your
family now is to sell yourlittle cottage where you farm
some of the food that you eat,move to London and a busy
(21:40):
industrial place, and now you'reliving impoverished, not able
to feed your family, working ina factory, making very little,
while, to quote Karl Marx, thebourgeois make a lot of money,
and so Marx saw this rise of theindustrial worker and the rise
(22:00):
of poverty and crime, and hewanted to figure out a way to do
that.
And so his goal was to create aclassless, stateless, moneyless
society based on collectiveownership.
And here's where, just realquickly, and I'll shut up the
difference- between socialismand communism.
(22:23):
The best way to describe it isthat socialism was always seen
as a bridge towards communism,but we've never had a true
communist society.
In world history, there's beensocieties that claim to be
communist, but they were alwayssocialist in nature, and so, as
an example, a socialist societyhas state or cooperative
(22:44):
ownership of industries.
A communist society is acollective ownership.
There's an abolition of privateproperty.
We've never had that in worldhistory.
Socialism believes in a mixedeconomy, both public and private
sectors.
Communism is moneyless andclassless.
Socialism sees government as anongoing role of providing
(23:07):
welfare and to regulate markets,where communism sees government
as a temporary tool to submitcapitalism to the way of the
people and then eventuallyeradicate it.
And so, again, we've neveractually seen a full communist
party, and the reason why isbecause of the fall of man
(23:32):
Anytime you have an organizationthat has too much power.
They are manipulative andcorruptive.
You mentioned Russia and Maoism.
They promised socialism.
I'm sorry, they promisedcommunism, but they ended up
with a socialist society wherepower was with the government
rather than the bourgeois, andthey corrupted and murdered
(23:53):
millions of people because of it.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
I was brought up in a socialist state.
Seriously, new Zealand was verysocialist.
Bread was very, very cheapbecause it was subsidized.
Milk was very cheap.
We never we didn't.
Bread was very, very cheapbecause it was subsidized.
Milk was very cheap.
We got free milk in schools.
It cost us $2 to have each ofour children because everything
medicine was subsidized.
You bought state housing if youwanted it.
If you were poor, you got astate house which the government
(24:17):
led you to have really cheap,and I never saw a homeless
person until I came to the US,because there was no very rich
people in.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
New.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Zealand and no very poor, and I was very, very happy
.
So it can work.
But we weren't communists, noteven slightly.
Yeah Well there's a differencebetween communists and
democratic socialists?
Speaker 4 (24:36):
Yeah right.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Yeah, so, ray, tell us about when you voted for
Bernie Sanders.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
That's what we would like to hear about your uncle.
He's got the burn.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
You guys remember that picture of Bernie Sanders
with the mittens.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
Wasn't it at the first inauguration?
Yeah, he was in there with hismittens.
Oh man, it kind of looked likeyour sweater.
I borrowed this one, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
So this is really really good and interesting
stuff.
Thanks, oscar, for just thosedetails and really kind of
delineating between those, and Ithink it is important for us to
remember that everything needsto be thought through carefully.
I think it's easy for us,because we live in a
capitalistic society, to almostadopt it without thinking
(25:24):
through it carefully.
I'm a capitalist, I lovecapitalism, I think it's right
and good and we've seen theoutcome of it, but at the same
time, we can't act like thereare no defects in it and there's
no abuses that could be a partof it, and so I think that's
what ends up happening.
(25:45):
Happening is people end upthrowing out the baby with the
bathwater.
There's some corruption orwhatever, but they don't also,
on the other side, examine itdeep enough to recognize, you
know, the benefits.
So so this is good and and Ithink I think it's important for
us to think carefully like that.
But, ray, as far as communismgoes, it goes beyond economics
(26:06):
Just slightly.
First of all, I'd like us todiscuss this communism's
rejection of God.
That's huge, you know.
In its Marxist-Leninist form,it's basically built on an
atheistic, if you can even callit a worldview.
There's debate on that, butbasically it's built on atheism
and Karl Marx is credited withthat famous saying that religion
(26:30):
is the opium of the people, orthe masses.
Opiate, opiate, opium, opiate.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah, communism seeks to imitate Christianity in that
sense, because you look at thebook of Acts, where they had all
things in common, but it wasgiven willingly, motivated by
love.
And what communism does iswe're going to share everything.
You're rich, so you're going todie so we can get you goods,
and that's what happens.
Atheistic communism has beenresponsible for more than 100
(26:58):
million deaths down through theyears, so it doesn't work
because it's tainted by sin asOscar was saying, yeah, and Mark
this desire to be liberatedfrom God.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
That's okay, let's start right there, because I
would make the contention andthe argument that communism
didn't begin with Karl Marx.
It began in the garden, rightwhen we see Adam and Eve
attempting to go away from God,and it says the earth is the
Lord's and the fullness thereof,the world and those who dwell
therein.
(27:32):
Right, so man tried to seizethat which belonged to God.
I know better than God.
I want what belongs to God,right?
And to Ray's point, as Ray'stalking about really a
capitalistic society as well,and you think about it in Acts
5-4, while it remained unsold,did it not remain your own?
(27:55):
And after it was sold, was itnot at your disposal?
Right?
So Scripture would affirm toprivate property that God does
not desire a forcedredistribution of goods.
We're saying it's thegovernment's responsibility to
take care of the homeless.
It's the government'sresponsibility to take care of
(28:16):
my health.
It's the government's no, no,no.
This is where really nonprofitorganizations come in by and
large, which were a big piece ofthe pie, coming from religious
organizations, from hospitalsbeing founded to anything else.
Or you think of American RedCross, you think of the
Salvation Army having theseChristian foundations saying we
(28:41):
are overflowing with good works,and that's what the Christian
does when somebody has thisparadigm shift and moves from
darkness into light.
They want to be rich in goodworks.
They can't just pass somebodyby right.
Yesterday, you and I, we werein Starbucks and the guy in
front of us looked over at meand said do you have a dollar?
Because he didn't have enoughfor his coffee.
(29:01):
And the teller said you are notallowed to ask for money inside
this establishment, to which hefinished doing what he was
doing.
He went off to the side and youwent right over to him and gave
him a track and you told him toget out of there.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
No, you gave him a track and stole his money.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
You gave him a track and stole his money and you gave
him an in-and-out gift card.
Right?
That's the Christian worldviewwhere we desire to distribute,
not a forced redistribution ofGod's things.
Right, genesis 128, fill theearth and subdue it and have
dominion.
God gave man stewardship, notsocialism.
(29:43):
God gave man the ability to seea need and then fill that need,
not have the government be incharge.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
You know what always intrigues me?
A lot of times you have theseextremely, extremely wealthy
celebrities who got what was theinternet's?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
last indicator Ray of your work 20 million, 20
million and we've gotten lettersthat talk about Ray's billions
of dollars.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
They need to go see your chicken coop, Ray.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
He's wearing borrowed clothes.
If you had that kind of money.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
It would be the most luxurious chicken coop in the
world.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
I actually.
We were at Al's house last weekand I was taking video of his
chicken coop and the littlechicks inside the house and the
birds and my family was justgetting a kick out of it.
You should put it on behind thescenes.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Oh really, so you've managed to actually get chickens
into the house now right?
Yes, of course, with the chicksand your little horse.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
you said oh boy.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
So what were?
You saying Mark should put iton the behind the scenes for
living waters tv because myfamily checks, checks right.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
So anyway, my point was you see a lot of these 28
chickens, now 28, 28 right, canwe eat some?
No, please not eating my ladiesI would love to go and cook one
no, no they, they, you can eattheir eggs.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Oh, that's, that's the fruit of the chicken.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yes, anyways, as I was saying, I'm just mystified
by these extremely richcelebrities who got rich through
capitalism and now they'recomplaining about the
capitalistic society we live inand they want to implement
socialism or whatever.
But, yeah, so you have thatelement.
(31:23):
I think another thing that'd begood to discuss is communism's
misunderstanding of human nature, because there's this, yeah,
and I'd love you to speak tothat, I was gonna, you know
there's this perspective thatpeople will just work selflessly
for the common good, you know,once you remove distinctions,
but you have that sinful naturethat doesn't function that way.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
Yeah, and I'm going to quote Kevin Koizis here.
He wrote a book calledPolitical Visions and Illusions.
I think I've mentioned itbefore.
I really think if you're goingto read one political science
book as a Christian, this is theone to read, because he is a
Christian political scientistand he does such a great job of
dissecting all of the views thatare out there, and one of the
(32:06):
things his big emphasis in thebook is that every ideology
which socialism slash communismis an ideology, along with
conservatism, along withlibertarianism.
All of these are ideologies,and one of the things that he
focuses on is that the root wordof ideology is idol and
ideologies become these idols inour lives and what they do,
(32:30):
every single one of thoseideologies that I just mentioned
.
They tell a story about theworld.
Communism tells a story ofcreation, fall, redemption,
restoration.
According to communism,creation humans are naturally
equal and cooperative.
They are naturally good and canwork together.
The fall is caused by privateproperty, class inequality,
(32:54):
exploitation, ultimately power.
Karl Marx talked about hiddenlaws, that basically, power was
naturally oppressive rather thangiven by God for good.
The redemption story ofcommunism is achieved through a
revolution or a democraticreform and a restoration.
(33:14):
A world of utopia is again thatclassless, economically equal,
just society.
Economically equal just society.
Of course you just mentionedit's a misdiagnosis.
He doesn't recognize humandepravity.
Our root issue is greed andcorruption and oppression, and
he has a false hope.
(33:34):
His false hope is in thisrevolution and state-controlled
outcomes and social engineering.
And so, yeah, it's ultimately amisdiagnosis of the human
condition which leads to a falsesense of hope and worry.
You're going to find a solution.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
That's exactly right.
I can't see that famous sayingthe only thing man learns from
history is that man doesn'tlearn anything from history.
Just look at the track recordof communism to see how it just
failed.
Because of man's depravity itjust cannot produce success.
The essence of communism isthat it rejects God's authority
(34:16):
and I love that.
The way the Ten Commandmentsbegin I am the Lord, your God.
That phrase, I am the Lord,your God, is used over 400 times
in scripture and it's reallygood to understand what it means
.
It means I am the Lord, thesovereign authority, the one
you're going to answer to yourGod.
I'm your creator.
So Richard Dawkins has a God.
(34:38):
God is his God, his creator.
Every atheist has a creator,but he's not their Lord, and you
see it consistently throughScripture you shall love the
Lord, your God with all yourheart, mind, soul and strength.
And we see the gospel appearingin the words of Thomas when he
knelt before Jesus and said myLord and my God.
(35:00):
And that's the essence of what aChristian is.
They take on the Lordship ofChrist and one day, the whole of
what a Christian is.
They take on the Lordship ofChrist and one day the whole of
humanity will bow to theLordship of Jesus.
Every knee will bow.
Wow, that's so good.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Ray, yeah, and it's important for us to remember too
that I think whenever man isempowered and he's void of the
life of God within him, yeah,he's gonna abuse that power.
I mean, that's what we'retalking about.
And, Mark, isn't it interestinghow those who reach the higher
(35:35):
echelons of communist leadershipdon't live out their own
philosophy?
They're not living like theother people.
There's no equality there.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing as we're going
through this.
Right, it's good for the masses, but not for me.
I know how you should live yourlife, but yet you're not living
the way you're preaching, right?
Communism forgets who the realcreator is.
Let's pause for that.
Think about that for just amoment.
Communism forgets who the realcreators and the purpose of life
(36:04):
.
In Psalm 57, verse 2, it says"to God who performs all things
for me", and it's a messianictext referring and pointing to
Jesus Christ.
So every sunset, every sunrise,every flower that blossoms,
what's happening and hiding inthe center of Pluto, is for
Jesus, it is a gift to Jesus, itis for Him.
(36:24):
And we are now along for theride.
All things were created throughHim and for Him.
We just happen to be along forthe ride to enjoy things right.
God richly, and he joyfully,will give us things right.
You ask for a fish.
He doesn't give you a rock.
He enjoys seeing you enjoy.
(36:48):
Communism is the exact oppositeof that, that there's nothing
to enjoy.
You think of what you're saying?
Those people in charge.
They are enjoying the fruits oftheir labor and they're
removing the labor of anybodyand everybody else.
So communism comes along andsays share, or else you are
(37:09):
forced to share, you are forcedto be part of the system.
God says enjoy and steward.
I like that, that we can comealong and we can enjoy giving.
We can enjoy what God has givenus and we don't need to worry
about that, we don't need tofreak out about that.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Oh, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Votibachum.
He said the gospel makesgenerous people, not coerced
people.
So the biggest givers, thebiggest proponents of, I believe
, a capitalistic society whichis, I think, the best fit for a
society, the best fit forwanting to set up nonprofit
organizations or to give and tonot even receive a receipt right
(37:52):
, not knowing what your lefthand is doing from your right is
that Christian society?
So the gospel makes generouspeople.
And when you remove the gospel,which is typically what a
communistic society is going todo, you're going to remove
Christ from the picture, you'regoing to remove the only hope
for a society.
And the only hope for a societyto Oscar's point is the gospel.
(38:16):
So the answer is notnecessarily a socialistic
society, it's not a capitalistic, it's not a communistic society
.
The only hope is the gospel.
And this is so importantbecause we get sidetracked,
thinking that our battle is inWashington DC, our battle is in
local authorities who are goingto set up laws.
And I'm not saying don't vote.
Obviously, for those that arelistening, I'm not swinging to
(38:38):
the other side of the pendulumand you don't either.
I'm simply saying thateverything we do and everything
we interpret and everything wewatch has to go through a
gospel-centric lens.
Why am I doing what I am doing?
But only the Christian can walkin good works.
This is important.
Ephesians 2.10 says that we arehis workmanship, created in
(38:58):
Christ Jesus for good works,that we should walk in them,
meaning a non-Christian can dosomething that looks to be good
but it's plastic fruit.
Only the Christian can actuallywalk in that work, because God
prepared those works for them,and when a non-Christian put it
underneath the umbrella ofsocialistic, communistic,
whatever it is, it actually addsto their damnation, because
(39:21):
that good work is as a filthyrag in the eyes of God, because
nobody is capable of doing goodexcept for Christ, who lives his
life through the Christian.
This conversation is agospel-centric issue and the
only answer is Jesus Christ andhim crucified.
So you may be the bestcapitalist, understand
(39:44):
everything about it, and you maybe the best socialist and you
understand some nuanced areaabout it.
And what people are missing out.
You're both missing out.
You're both missing the markbecause we are not trying to
establish a nation set on goodmoral principles.
Though I vote for somebody whomore aligns to my scriptural
preferences, I'm trying toestablish Christ in each
(40:06):
conversation, in each outgoing,in each conversation.
As I watch a movie, oscar right.
Find the lie when you'rewatching a movie, because
everything has to point back toChrist or you're missing the
mark, no matter how good it mayseem in and of itself.
And then, final quote JohnWesley's mom, susanna Wesley.
She said I don't care how goodit is in and of itself, I don't
(40:28):
care how holy it may seem in andof itself, if it does not point
you and push you to Christ.
You have missed the mark andthe point of what is happening.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Wow, amen, yeah.
And I want to highlightsomething, mark, too, within
that realm that you just touchedon, because you talked about
the plastic fruit of the worldand doing good deeds versus the
Christian.
We have to remember within theChristian scope as well, right,
1 Corinthians 13,.
Man, you can sell your goods tofeed the poor, you can give
(41:03):
your body to be burned, you canbe spiritual by speaking with
the tongues of men and of angels.
You can have knowledge tounderstand all mysteries and yet
not have love, and it profitsyou nothing because you don't
have love.
So, even for the Christian doinggood works, we have to remember
that they can be in vain if themotivation is not love, which I
(41:25):
believe has connected to it allthe attributes of love in 1
Corinthians 13, patience,kindness, selflessness, so forth
, but also infused with agenuine care for the supposed
object of your love.
And so we have to remember thattoo.
Like, why are we doing thesethings as believers?
Because we can be doing themfor our glory.
We want people to see us asthis hero, or as generous, or as
(41:48):
godly, versus like man.
I care for your soul, I carefor your well-being, and as I do
that, I infuse all theattributes of agape love.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
That's huge.
Speaker 4 (42:01):
Again, I want to take a step back and speak from a
place of compassion towards mysocialist friends and I do have
them.
As a matter of fact, I have apicture here of my buddy's
laptop.
It's Karl Marx and it says Iblame capitalism.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
This is a good friend of mine.
Speaker 4 (42:16):
It's a good friend of mine.
I hang out with him regularly.
If you're listening, you knowwho you are and you know that I
love you.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Who pays for the meals?
Speaker 1 (42:26):
To each according to his ability and to his means, to
each according to his need.
Speaker 4 (42:30):
Yeah, listen, I love what you said, mark, and you're
absolutely right the answer tosocialism, communism, is not
capitalism.
You see the cracks, you see theimperfections, and I think
where socialism slash capitalismstarts, is a longing for
something good, a longing forjustice, a longing for equality,
(42:51):
a longing for a world wherethere's none in poverty, where
there's none being oppressed.
But ultimately, your ultimatehope is in politics and not in
the Prince of Peace, and my pleato anybody who's buying into
any of these ideologies is thatyou cannot have heaven on earth
(43:13):
without the cross.
We've tried it before.
We've tried it in Babel.
We tried bringing down utopia.
It started in the Old Testament.
We've tried it in Russia, we'vetried it in the United States,
we've tried it all over theMiddle East.
You cannot have heaven withouta cross, and the more we try to
do that, the more we fail.
So while communism aims forjustice, it aims for justice
(43:36):
without a redeemer, and thegospel calls for justice through
a redeemer.
No political vision can save us.
Only Christ can save us.
And we can get into the detailsabout again.
As I said earlier, thescriptures give us a rubric to
critique all man-made structures, including capitalism,
(43:58):
socialism, communism,libertarianism, and I've heard
friends of mine try to arguefrom the scriptures for
socialism.
I've also heard friends of mineargue from the scriptures for
capitalism.
And this is where I would justtell both parties slow your roll
.
God's economy is so vastlydifferent than the economy of
(44:22):
man.
I mean, look at the OldTestament.
You've got the Sabbath year, inwhich debts are canceled and
the land rests every seven years.
You've got the year of Jubilee,in which land is returned to
families and slaves are freed.
You've got gleanings in whichyou don't maximize profit by
growing crops, but you take whatyou need and you leave the rest
(44:42):
to the poor.
You've got people lending moneywithout interest, and then
you've got tithing laws whichsupport priest festivals and the
poor, and the new Testamentthat's all Old Testament stuff.
How someone?
I heard somebody summarize likethis God's economy is like this
it's provision over profit,that's capitalism, but it's also
(45:04):
provision over power, that'scommunism.
In other words, in God'seconomy we have justice and
mercy and beauty and goodness.
But what you long for will nothappen through policies and
politicians.
It will only happen when Jesuscomes back and brings heaven
(45:25):
with him.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Yeah, amen, oscar, that's so good.
That's so good Again.
You know, we got to be carefulto not be kind of Stupid.
Speaker 4 (45:41):
Well, Good point, Ray .
Speaker 1 (45:43):
Stupid's a good point .
But no, I think we have to becareful not to be secondhand
apologists, meaning that we justdefend something because this
is the right way.
Why is it the right way?
It just is right.
There's no thought, there's nodeep exploration into some of
(46:07):
those things.
I can give you an example forthose who stand for socialism I
quoted it earlier right Fromeach according to his ability,
to each according to his need.
I mean, that sounds good.
Right From each according tohis ability.
You have the ability to eachaccording to his need, but again
, what's missing there is theunderstanding of human nature in
(46:29):
that like, okay, everyone whohas an ability, like they're
going to be honest and declarethat and give according to their
ability when they're beingforced.
And then everyone according totheir need.
When you have a system that'sset up to, you know, in some
ways, you know, benefit thosewho are in need.
(46:50):
Well, you're going to havepeople that are going to
gravitate toward laziness anddevelop and create that need so
that they can receive from thosewho have.
And so you know those thingsneed to be thought through and
understood and dissected.
Speaker 3 (47:03):
That is right.
There is worth the price ofadmission.
Right that if we remove thatheart issue, then you're going
to fall flat.
It's simply not going to work.
It's like the boy that wasalways asking his dad for $10,
and his dad said hey look, goget a job, Go provide for
yourself.
He's all.
No, dad, you have plenty ofmoney, give it to me.
(47:24):
He goes, I'll tell you what, gomow my lawn and I'll give you
$1,000.
He goes $1,000 to mow the lawn.
Absolutely, he mows the lawn,he gets $1,000.
Now, wait a minute.
What I want you to do with thatmoney now is I want you I'm
forcing you without saying ityou give that money to other
people who are not ready andwilling to work.
And he goes wait, wait a minute.
(47:48):
I worked hard for this and itwas as if the light bulb had
turned on.
Right that, wait a minute, Iwork hard, I should be able to
do what I want to do with thismoney.
If anyone is not willing to work, they should not eat.
This is not something that isman-made, this is scriptural.
2 Thessalonians 3.10, right.
So this is not, as one personput it, not capitalistic cruelty
.
It is biblical common sense.
(48:11):
You work, you get paid.
Should you get paid X amount ofdollars or less amount of
dollars?
I mean, I think we shouldeliminate minimum wage
altogether.
I think Prager University putsa really good picture with that.
But Romans 1.28 says and sincethey did not see fit to
acknowledge God, god gave themup right.
So a godless system will alwayscollapse upon itself.
(48:33):
We, always, we must continuallygo back to exactly what you
guys are talking about here,that a socialistic society.
It seems good, you know, intheory, but it'll never work out
on paper as defined by whatwe're seeing, because it removes
God entirely.
We cannot do that.
We have to remember that theheart is deceitful and
(48:54):
desperately wicked, above allthings, yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
And you know, what's interesting too is I think I may
be wrong on this, but from whatI was exploring, it seems
almost, with the exception of,maybe, north Korea, almost every
remaining communist country hasincorporated capitalism to some
degree.
So the system itself, like youwere talking about earlier,
oscar, doesn't really fully workin terms of its foundational
(49:21):
philosophies.
But, ray, there is thismisnomer too that capitalism
breeds greed, which it can, ofcourse, but you've lived in New
Zealand, we've had people inother European countries.
America is the most generouscountry on the face of the earth
.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Oh, that's one thing we noticed as soon as we got
over here that Americans areincredibly generous, very
friendly.
Just while you guys weretalking, I was thinking what I
would say if I had the privilegeto go to some of these angry
universities that just spendnothing but day in, day out
protesting their anger against,basically, america and
capitalism.
What would I say if I wentthere?
And I thought it would beinteresting, because all I want
(50:00):
to do is preach the gospel, andthat because of their background
, atheistic and evolution, etc.
However, when we talk about thegospel, what we're saying is
Jesus came to save us from thewrath, to come, and as fruit of
the gospel there is love, andit's so simplistic sounding, but
love is the answer to everydilemma of humanity.
(50:23):
You shall love the Lord, yourGod, with all your heart, mind,
soul and strength, and love yourneighbor as yourself.
If humanity could do that,there'd be no rape, no murder,
no adultery, no fornication, notheft, no lawyers, no judges, no
prisons.
Everything that we live forwould just be cast aside,
because we'd have utopia.
But humanity cannot do thatbecause it doesn't have the love
(50:47):
that we need.
I mean, there's a rock groupcalled the Beatles from years
ago that sang all we need islove.
And that was just before theirbitter breakup.
And then the hippies that justsaid love, love is all you need,
same thing.
And then you get the CharlesManson come in and you just see
the whole thing tainted and thatresulted in the Jesus
revolution where people come toknow the Lord.
But love is the answer.
(51:08):
It really is.
And that's the fruit of thegospel and that's why we need to
preach the gospel to get peoplesaved by God's grace from the
wrath to come and to bring asociety that's tolerable until
the coming of Christ.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
Yeah, ray, you think about the words of Christ.
There are those times I'vetalked about it before where I
just have to step back and stepoutside of just the grind of the
routine and what we'reaccustomed to and to just hone
in on the words of Christ.
On this hangs all the law andthe prophets.
(51:45):
We hear that in our moderncontext, but you have to
understand godly Jews hearingthat in that day on this hangs
all the law and the prophets.
You're summing it all up inthis.
That's the fulfillment of itall Absolutely.
And you see the divine wisdomin that.
Because if you're walkingaccording to the law of love,
(52:06):
which means that you caregenuinely, like I said, for your
neighbor's welfare andwell-being, you're not going to
be looking for ways to rip themoff or to do them wrong or to
undercut them.
No, you care for his well-being.
So that takes care of all thecommandments that deal with your
interactions with men.
If you truly love God whichmeans what you care for him and
(52:28):
for what His glory You're notgoing to be looking for
loopholes to violate hiscommands and get your own way
and pursue your own ambitionsand desires.
You're going to just love God,so you don't need to be
micromanaged by the law of Moses.
I can imagine those in the dayof Christ that got it and it was
like, of course, it all comesdown to true, genuine love,
(52:53):
which we saw demonstratedthrough Christ, and the cool
thing is we all love, love.
Yeah, love, love love.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
What's love got to do ?
What's love got to do with it?
What's love?
Speaker 1 (53:06):
but a second-hand emotion.
Wow, that was so good.
Speaker 3 (53:13):
I'm reminded of, maybe you guys are familiar with
.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
Richard.
Speaker 3 (53:17):
Wurmbrand.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
Yes, not Richard Wurmbrand.
I mentioned, yeah, the Torturefor Christ.
Torture for Christ.
I heard him speak once.
Speaker 3 (53:24):
I had the opportunity to go to Oklahoma and I met up
with Lynn Copeland and she livesnot too far from Voice of the
Martyrs, located there inOklahoma.
He spent 14 years, most of itin solitary confinement, in a
Romanian prison, a communisticsociety.
He was ransomed for $10,000 outof Romania in 1965.
(53:46):
He testified before the USSenate talking about communism
and he removed his shirt becausenobody believed what he was
saying, about what he wentthrough.
And he removed his shirt and heshowed the scars that he got
when he was there inside aprison because he refused to bow
(54:07):
down to the dictates of themand not preach Christ anymore.
He said communism is not love,communism is a hammer which they
use to crush the enemy.
And then he said they gave medrugs that would distort my mind
and they beat my feet to a pulp, but I had already given up my
mind and my body to Christ sothat they could not take what
(54:30):
was no longer mine.
Let's go.
That is the overarching, thebig picture, 10,000 foot
elevated view down as what'shappening here on earth.
As I visited there, the voiceof the martyrs, I was
(54:52):
dumbfounded at all of thedifferent ways that they're
trying to utilize to go into the1040 window and to reach people
that were unreachable.
And they utilized the work ofRichard Wurmbrand inside that
book Torture for Christabsolutely amazing, millions
have been encouraged by it.
And they had these differentideas to be able to reach.
And he said, look, he was acatalyst to demonstrate, to go
(55:12):
into the highways, the bywaysand the gutterways and to compel
people to reach.
And he said, look, he was acatalyst to demonstrate, to go
into the highways, the bywaysand the gutterways and to compel
people to come.
And they showed me a balloonthat they would give away to
people, and I have one at homeand it has the gospel in Korean.
And what they do is they bringthese balloons down into South
Korea and the one time of theyear when there's a big wind
(55:32):
shift up into North Korea, theyrelease these helium balloons in
South Korea to go over intoNorth Korea and to come down to
populate the gospel in thepopulation of the people who do
not have access to the gospel.
(55:54):
Would this have happened shouldsomebody was not tortured?
Would this have happened shouldcapitalism not have existed in
the way that Richard Wurmbrensaw that in the 1960s?
I don't know God's going toaccomplish his will.
But I'm just saying that Godutilizes and uses what's
happening around us not to raiseour fist, but to raise our
(56:14):
hands and to say Lord, whateveryou want to do, make sure that I
make this.
Whatever.
This is a gospel-centric issuefor your glory, for your fame,
for my good.
Whatever you got to do toglorify yourself, amen.
Good Mark Richard Wurmbren.
Speaker 1 (56:32):
Torture for Christ that stirred my soul, man, thank
you for sharing that.
You know I was recently in acommunist country.
You guys know I went to Cubaand I saw firsthand the ravages
of communism in terms of itssystematic, I think,
deterioration of a society.
And you know the believersthere.
It wasn't like I went and Ijust kind of observed, but the
(56:55):
believers there told us I thinkthe average income is like $7 a
month right now there.
But you know what?
Speaker 3 (57:03):
What are you guys laughing at?
He's already coming up withballoons to put the gospel on it
.
Oh, you're kidding me.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
Oh yeah right, Balloons, no, no.
Speaker 2 (57:15):
But oh yeah, right balloon, no, no, but there's 82
inch balloons, oh yeah, I lovecommunism balloons.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
Oh man, all right, so anyway I.
So I got to see firsthand, um,the, the, just the destruction,
I think, of communism, and againnot just because of its
economic policy, but all theseother things we're talking about
.
We didn't even get into thedestruction of the family
structure, because the statetakes over that.
We didn't get into the creationof envy and class warfare and
(57:41):
the danger of centralized powerand things like that.
But, man, you know, what wasthe most beautiful thing Was
watching these believers thrivein the midst of that because
they treasured Christ.
You guys remember I talked abouthow I got up and I said the
church in Cuba is alive, thechurch in Cuba is powerful, the
(58:02):
church in Cuba loves Jesus.
And then they exploded Amen,and they're not letting it stop
them.
Yeah, there are repercussions,but they keep pushing and
pushing to where the governmentis even stepping back and going.
Wow, these people are actuallyhaving good impact in our
society.
So I know that there arebrethren right now living in
communist countries who arelistening to our voice, and we
(58:23):
just want to encourage you toknow that you are loved by your
brethren here in the UnitedStates of America, that we care
for you, that we're standingwith you, that we're praying for
you and, keeping with what Marksaid, they cannot take Christ
from you, and so treasure him,cling to him and love them with
(58:45):
the gospel, make the gospelknown, because the true hope for
every nation is the gospel.
Speaker 2 (58:51):
And my thought is after reading Tortured for
Christ, is that we need to takeadvantage of the freedom that we
have in this country right now.
Familiarity breeds contempt,and it certainly does.
We can take for granted to apoint where we do nothing in 24
hours for the furtherance of thegospel, and that shouldn't be.
Speaker 1 (59:09):
Yeah, amen.
I love these words by JohnMacArthur.
The gospel is not a call tosocial reform or economic
equality.
It's a call to repentance,faith and holiness.
Amen, brothers, amen, amen, allright, where would we be
(59:29):
without the craziness?
Don't forget the tract starterKit 350 tracts.
This will get you started.
Don't go and get our packedsample Tract Sample Pack and
give those out.
Those are for you to recognizewhat we have and then get the
starter kit next so you can goout and give the gospel out.
Don't forget the Living Watersmug Devin's Study Bible.
(59:51):
Living Waters TV,alllivingwaterscom.
And please, friends, join us onthe podcast YouTube channel,
the Living Waters podcastYouTube channel, and remember
podcast atlivingwaterscomcomcomcom where
you can share your thoughts andyour criticisms of Ray Mark and
Oscar.
And remember, share this withothers wherever you listen and
(01:00:15):
all that good stuff.
Thank you for joining us,friends.
We'll see you here next time onthe Living Waters podcast,
where communist Ray Mark andOscar have no idea what they're
doing.
But, ray, as far as communism goes, it goes beyond
economics Just slightly.
First of all and I'd like us todiscuss this communism's
rejection of God.
That's huge, you know.
In its Marxist-Leninist formit's basically built on an
atheistic, if you can even callit a worldview there's debate on
(00:22):
that but basically it's builton atheism.
Karl Marx is credited with thatfamous saying that religion is
the opium of the people or themasses Opiate.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Opium.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Opiate.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Yeah, communism seeks to imitate Christianity in that
sense, because you look at thebook of Acts, where they had all
things in common, but it wasgiven willingly, motivated by
love.
And what communism does iswe're going to share everything.
You're rich, so you're going todie so we can get you goods,
and that's what happens.
Atheistic communism has beenresponsible for more than 100
(00:57):
million deaths down through theyears, so it doesn't work
because it's tainted by sin as.
Oscar was saying doesn't workbecause it's tainted by sin, as
Oscar was saying it's nice whenyou're proven right, it's
wonderful when others are wrong.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
And you're beautifully and wonderfully
proven right.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
See, that was way off key.
It was bad.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Let me ask y'all a question.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Before you do so, do you ever listen to yourself and
then go?
That was good, I'm going tomove forward with that.
Did you do that with this?
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Joyfully, constantly and incessantly, although I do
freestyle sing so I don't havetime for your stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I'd like to hear you one day.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Let me ask y'all a question.
I'm going to do it, by the way,I am going to make y'all a
California word.
Good luck Y'all.
We don't believe in luck.
Mark, let's say you moved fromthe US to England and you lived
in England for 35 years.
(02:01):
Who would be better in tunewith the American accent?
You, or someone who never leftAmerica, continues to live in
America and speaks with theAmerican accent every day?
Don't answer that.
That's a rhetorical question.
So yesterday I was on a podcastwith someone you're on the
(02:23):
podcast with.
You're on a podcast with Idon't know if you guys have been
on with him yet Brad Ogg fromNew Zealand.
Isn't he a cool guy?
But he's especially awesomebecause of his validation of my
New Zealand accent.
Really, validation.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
There's no way he could have done that there's no
way he could have done that.
Yes, he said it's on you soundcloser to Chinese than you do.
New Zealand accent how?
Speaker 4 (02:48):
weird.
When I was on with him hewasn't intoxicated.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
That's what it was.
So anyway, I'm vindicated man,it feels so good.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
It doesn't take much for you to feel vindicated, does
it?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
That's true.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
Oh boy, that was a fun podcast.
What a cool guy.
Yeah, his podcast is awesometoo.
He uh interviews christians,apologists, but also
professional athletes, I thinkactors and so he's got a
gathering in new zealand oflisteners that are both
christian and non-christian yes,I think he started out doing
like sports stuff.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, he does an amazing job because he's
completely deaf.
You know what's that?
Speaker 1 (03:28):
I'm sure he'll be looking for losers.
You know, you brought upEngland.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
I'm going to be at the Ambassador's Academy in
England with John Harris.
Let me pull up that date here.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Who's our?
Speaker 3 (03:40):
UK agent.
He is our UK agent, and if youare in Lincoln or near Lincoln,
england, is this going to airMark or post at the time before
you're there?
Yeah well, it's May 28th, oh,28th, 29th and 30th and 31st, so
2025.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Lincoln's, near Nottingham.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
It's north, it's of wherever.
If you're south, it would benorth, and if you're north, it
would be south.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Ray, tell us about Barnsley.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Barnsley.
My wife was born in Barnsley.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Aye, aye she was aye.
Which is northern district ayeBarnsley.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Side note we do have quite a bit of listeners in
Europe.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Quite a bit we do.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
If, if you guys are interested, not only that event,
but if you check out the LivingWaters Europe page, john Harris
, both on YouTube and on thewebsite, does amazing stuff.
There's tons of resourcesavailable specifically for your
cultural context.
So, whether it's Living WatersEurope's YouTube channel website
, I'd love his YouTube channelto take off.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
He does a great job, yeah, so check that out.
He's doing pretty well.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
I think he's got over 30,000 subscribers, which is
good.
Yeah, oscar.
By the way, your hair looksreally nice.
Well, thank you.
Can't say the same forGrandma's sweater, but the hair,
the hair Says the guy who onlyshops at Severs.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
I'm wise with my money.
I'm wise with my money.
The guy's got a monthlysubscription to Warehouse.
It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Have you ever let your hair grow more than an inch
and a half?
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Me.
Yes, my hair doesn't grow out,it grows up, that's good, a
Lebanese fro would be epic.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Do it With a side shave.
Can you do that please?
Speaker 4 (05:19):
No, not a side shave Just up, just tabbouleh gel in
it Just a booby gel.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Bring back the flat top dude.
Oh man, kid and play.
You guys remember kid and play.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
No.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Totally Whatever, yeah, Anyway, I was going to say
something, but I can't remember.
Oh so Brad asked me somethinginteresting yesterday, Last
question of the podcast.
He said you, Mark Ray and Oscar, stranded on a deserted island.
Who do we eat first?
Speaker 4 (05:47):
What would the scenario be like?
Who would you eat first.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Thanks a lot.
I'd be tough Ray, of course.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Well, let me say this I probably want to.
You're the first one to goright, because you're absolutely
useless 100%.
But, I will say Ray is theclosest person to MacGyver I
have ever met.
This is true.
We need him to survive.
He has the ability to figurethings out that we would not be
able to figure out.
Just give him a paperclip andsome belly button lint and he'll
be able to survive for years.
(06:14):
And a chicken, oh man, and achicken.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Two chickens we feed easy to the wolves, tobias time.
This island has walls For noreason, for no reason, for no
reason For entertainment.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Just for fun.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yeah, oh boy, that would be something man.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Let's do it Something to behold.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Let's do it yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
It's bound to be an island by Tahiti.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
I said I would be first of all.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
I would immediately try to organize us establish
some sort of rule and law andcreate a clock somehow you were
stranded on the Cook Islands for12 hours and almost died.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Oh that was pretty crazy.
It'd be Lord of the Flies, Ithink.
That's what I said to him.
That's the first thing I said.
I said why watch Lord of theFlies?
I said Oscar would be diggingholes to try to find some lost
books.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Ray would be preaching the gospel to to find
some lost books.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Ray ray would be preaching the gospel to crabs
and seagulls and mannequins andmark would be looking for a
wiener schnitzel to destroy.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Now, right, right, mark, that's right I have not
eaten a wiener schnitzel sincethey came out with good for you.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
You're holding fast, huh mark.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
I am holding a fast.
It has not been easy, because Ialmost think about it daily.
That would actually be.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
Your struggle is what would we feed you?
Yeah, that's true, yeah, youwouldn't want to eat anything.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
You're the only one that would survive because you
can eat anything at any place.
It absolutely blows my mind.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Seriously, it's an exciting prospect to be stuck on
an island.
I I love Robinson Crusoe.
There's no internet.
You know that.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Oh no, laptops, never mind Forget it.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
That's the end of Ray .
Do you know?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Robinson Crusoe was a Christian novel Really.
Oh yes, he sought the Lord andwas full of scripture until it
came out on TV or the movies.
But it's amazing.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Daniel Defoe.
He was buried at Bunhill Fieldsin England.
I'm going to visit it nextmonth.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Really.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Yeah, he died.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
Spoiler alert.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Enough useless talk, friends.
By the way, we have with ustoday in the studio a couple of
very distinguished guests.
Please welcome Micah andDominic.
Yeah, in the house.
Great to have you guys.
All right?
Oh, by the way, sorry I didn'tdo that appropriately.
(08:31):
A shout out to Jesse.
I shared with you guys.
I was just at Granger Smith'splace.
What a great brother man.
Was Jesse's girl there?
Jesse's girl no, but Jesse, thepolice officer was there.
I sent you guys his video, oh,tremendous.
Yeah, I mean just to hear abouthow he's been impacted by the
(08:54):
podcast.
I mean, he got saved throughthe Mario video, got discipled
through the podcast.
God saved his marriage and thengot him into a sound church.
That's how we connected withGranger and he came over to the
studio where I was recording thepodcast with him and man it was
.
I mean he was in tears overwhat the Lord's done.
So, jesse, god bless you,brother, shout out to you and
(09:15):
hope to connect with you againhere before long.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Granger's sharp.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Oh, he's super sharp.
Yeah, so we'll be havingGranger on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Oh, really, I was very impressed when I did an
interview.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Oh, that's right he had you on too.
Yeah, I was there in person,Ray.
It's better in person.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
It's good, always good, to be there in person.
It means so much more.
All the time.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
All right, France, oh no, no, wait, wait, I have a
letter.
Oh time for a cool, classycomment.
This is what are you guystalking about over there?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Well, I just about blinded Mark.
I was really close.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
I did the old, but I felt the warmth of his eyes, the
three-stitches eye poke.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
I felt the warmth of his eyes.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah, we have a letter sent in.
We love letters that are sentin.
Wait, wait, let me see.
This is from Abigail, abigailmorris.
She sent us her graduationpicture if anyone could see this
pictures and, uh, she sent aletter with it in cursive.
I know, oh, yes, no, it's not,it's printed.
Uh, ray, easy, mark and oscar.
(10:16):
Hello friends, sorry I had todo it.
My name is abigail, I'm 18years old and graduating this
may.
I'm sending graduation cards toeveryone who has helped shape
me into the person I am today.
I'm sending one to y'all.
So I'm sending one to y'all.
I remember the first time Iwatched one of Ray's videos.
My dad showed it to me myfreshman year of high school and
(10:39):
I remember thinking two thingsthis is so cool and such a neat
and efficient way to share thegospel.
And two, this guy has a reallyneat accent.
Ray, you can pay me for sayingthat I take Venmo.
All jokes aside, watching theLiving Waters videos and
listening to the podcast hasgiven me so much confidence and
encouragement in my faith.
(10:59):
I have now gone on severalmissions trips, shared the
gospel unashamed and withcourage, and have learned so, so
much through your podcast,including a few good jokes about
who God is and who he hascalled me to be.
After I graduate high school, Iwill be a staff member at
Summit Ministries in July andAugust Summit Ministries.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
Hey let's go.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah, Our brother Jeff Myers.
He was here with you guys.
I wasn't here that day, butafter that I'm not sure what
will happen, but you have allmodeled what trusting and
seeking wisdom from God lookslike, and I know he has plans
(11:47):
for my life, even if I don'tknow what they are yet.
Thank y'all so much for yourlove, faithfulness and passion
for the Lord and the lost.
He has used y'all in so manyways and I'm so grateful for how
he has spoken through y'allinto my life.
Y'all keep the y'alls going.
I hope to meet y'all someday,but if not here on earth, then I
can't wait to worship the Lordalongside you all.
(12:09):
Six foot six hairy chested rayin the new heavens and new earth
, ps Easy.
I'll only worship alongside youif a glorified body means a
glorified singing voice.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Oh, she's got discernment.
Oh boy, Wise woman.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
All glory to Christ.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Oh, thank you so much .
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yeah, Abigail, what a blessing.
And where's that?
We gave it to our friendsAnyway thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
What did you just do?
How old are you?
Speaker 1 (12:42):
I'm putting it in my saved file down there.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Saved file.
No, it's my little thing downthere.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
All right, friends, and now Radically Revolutionary
Resources podcast is brought toyou by the Tract Starter Kit 350
Tracts.
Do you know what they are, ray,by the way?
Yes, they're wonderful.
What are they?
They're tracks.
You have no idea.
Ray came up with it and he hasno idea what it contains Million
dollar bill, ten Commandments,coin comic, good person track
(13:10):
and 101 of the world's funniestone-liners 101 of the world's
funniest one-liners yeah,they're really good.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah, they're funny.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
You can.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
We can't have everything.
Who led?
Speaker 1 (13:21):
the editor to redesign the cover.
We can't have everything.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Where would you put it?
Stuff like that?
Speaker 1 (13:26):
And don't forget the Living Waters mug, from which
you can take a chug.
Oh, by the way, Brad and I wedid a rap.
He beatboxed and I rapped aboutthe Living Waters mug yesterday
.
And don't forget the EvidenceStudy Bible.
It's liable to bring aboutrevival.
Living Waters TV.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Living Waters.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Would you swallow Oscar?
And don't forget, friends, thepodcast YouTube channel, guys,
this is where you get clips,little clips, snippets from the
podcast, where you see us,unfortunately, and hear our
voices together.
But I like these becausethey're like nuggets.
Yeah, they're cool, littlenuggets Four minutes long, yeah,
(14:08):
so check it out.
Living Waters Podcast channel,subscribe and share.
The topic for today is CozyingUp to Communists and we're going
to be examining Ray, mark andOscar's longstanding membership
in the Communist Party.
Who told them We'll start withCommunist Comrade Ray?
Cece, cece.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Come with Unist.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yeah, guys, boy, I'm, I'm really excited actually to
be tackling this weird, bizarresubject.
It really is bizarre.
Did you come up with it, oscar?
Someone came up with it, Idon't remember.
I don't remember.
But yeah, we're going toexamine the roots of communism
and why it's unbiblical.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
It is.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
You didn't know that.
Ray Huh Comrade, ray Stunned oh, I love that title for Ray.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
So yeah, so guys, communism Define that first easy
.
Yeah, so Com with.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Unism.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
So yeah, I mean communism.
I'd like to kind of get into alittle history of it and 1848.
Ray, how did you know that?
I knew it was born.
Beginning with Mr Karl Marx, Iknew I was born.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
And you sent me a meme Karl Marx's.
Oh, that was a good one.
Wait, what was it?
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Oh, got it.
I remember it.
No one ever talks about hissister.
Yeah, she invented.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
No, no, you got to say her name first, okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yeah, everyone always talks about Karl Marx.
No one ever talks about hissister Anya.
She invented the startingpistol.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Anya Marx.
That really made us laugh.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
That's pretty good, oh man, I love myself All right,
so yeah.
So basically, 1848, you getKarl Marx and Friedrich Engels.
They published what was calledthe Communist Manifesto and this
basically introduces the ideaof class struggle.
That's really kind of at theheart of communism, the
abolition of private propertyand basically a society where
(16:15):
the state owns everything.
I mean just as a non-starterright.
Like you would think, thecommon human being would pause a
minute and say, wait a minute,like there's something nefarious
and suspicious about this.
Then, in 1867, marx publishesDas Kapital.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
So you're talking about the Communist Manifesto
they published?
Yeah right, Very famous.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Yeah, but he publishes Das Kapital and then
he deepens his critique ofcapitalism and starts to lay the
foundation for really theMarxist economic theory.
And then from there, of course,you get the Russian Revolution
in 1917, you get the Bolsheviks,led by Vladimir Lenin.
He overthrows the Russianmonarchy, does away with it and
(16:59):
then establishes really theworld's first communist state,
russia, socialist state.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
Yeah, soviet socialist republic.
Yeah, it was more socialistthan communist.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah.
And then 24 to 53, you getStalin's regime, you know gets
radically brutal, and then thattransforms Russia into a
totalitarian state.
Millions of deaths through youknow what were called purges,
they forced famines, labor camps, yeah.
And then from there, 1949, youget the communist takeover in
(17:30):
China with Mao, and then 50s tothe 80s, the Cold War era.
Communism spreads to EasternEurope, north Korea, cuba,
vietnam, the US, and then theWestern nations start to oppose
it globally, along with the US,and obviously the fear was the
loss of democracy.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
And it looked like it was going that direction too.
When I was a kid, I used tolook at a world map and
everything red was communist andit was spreading right across
the whole world, yeah right.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
And then, of course, 1989.
Yes, mr Gorbachev Ray, finishit, tear down this world.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Wait he was in it you didn't know that, oscar.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
So that's kind of a you know sort of a sweeping
overview.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Can you say it again for those who fell asleep?
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Yeah, communism.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
What Reagan did was incredible.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
It really was.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah, and it was just a huge game chamber, game
chamber, game chamber.
Yeah, it's a game chamber.
It's where you've got a gameand you put it in a chamber, go
on.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
I'm done.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
But yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I remember seeing that it was just wonderful.
Every time I look at it itgives me goosebumps.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Yeah, no, that was definitely an iconic moment.
Yeah, Speaking of game chambers, I think it's important to
distinguish the differencebetween communism and socialism,
cause I think a lot of timeswhen you hear people talk,
especially online, they tend toblend those two things together
and not understand thedistinction between the two.
And I also think it's valuablebecause here's the thing.
(19:03):
I think, talking as Christians,it's easy for us to wag our
finger at socialism and say it'swrong.
But in everyday life, as you'rebumping up against, if you have
friends who are democraticsocialists, it's important for
us to understand what they'reaiming for, the longing of their
(19:24):
heart.
Because here's my big thing, mybig takeaway for this podcast
is, if you're going to argueagainst socialism, slash
communism with capitalism.
You're going to fail, andyou're gonna allow them to fail
too, because capitalism is notthe answer.
The gospel is the answer.
And so, in that sense, likeapproaching the conversation of
(19:45):
communism and socialism from agospel perspective rather than
arguing as a capitalist, it'sgonna help you in the long run.
And on that note, as you look atKarl Marx, especially in side
note, you guys probably recall,and maybe it's never connected
the dots for you, but do youremember my story about how I
became an atheist.
It was reading white papers byKarl Marx, and so my first
(20:10):
introduction to atheism was froma social, economic perspective,
not a philosophical one.
And then it gravitated intophilosophy and a lack of
religion or a hatred for faith.
And on that note, like I canthink back of Karl Marx's, his
angst you have to remember thathe was born shortly after the
French Revolution and during theIndustrial Revolution and the
(20:33):
Industrial Revolution wascreating a lot of problems,
especially in Europe.
Capitalism was creating poverty.
We have to recognize this as afact, because it wasn't just
Karl Marx that was concernedabout the direction of
capitalism.
A lot of philosophers wereconcerned about it too.
And the best way to describe itis like imagine you're a
carpenter living 150 milesoutside of London, england, and
(20:56):
your father and his father'sfather made a living making
chairs and tables, some of themfor your local people who lived
in your village, but others, youknow, somebody would come on by
and buy them from you and takethem to London where he can sell
them right.
And one day people stoppedbuying stuff from you because
they're buying tables and chairsthat are being made in
(21:19):
factories.
Not yet not yet, but yeah,that's the long game.
And so now they're buying fromthese factories.
They're cheaper, they'refalling apart more, but you
don't have work, and the onlyway for you to provide for your
family now is to sell yourlittle cottage where you farm
some of the food that you eat,move to London and a busy
(21:40):
industrial place, and now you'reliving impoverished, not able
to feed your family, working ina factory, making very little,
while, to quote Karl Marx, thebourgeois make a lot of money,
and so Marx saw this rise of theindustrial worker and the rise
(22:00):
of poverty and crime, and hewanted to figure out a way to do
that.
And so his goal was to create aclassless, stateless, moneyless
society based on collectiveownership.
And here's where, just realquickly, and I'll shut up the
difference- between socialismand communism.
(22:23):
The best way to describe it isthat socialism was always seen
as a bridge towards communism,but we've never had a true
communist society.
In world history, there's beensocieties that claim to be
communist, but they were alwayssocialist in nature, and so, as
an example, a socialist societyhas state or cooperative
(22:44):
ownership of industries.
A communist society is acollective ownership.
There's an abolition of privateproperty.
We've never had that in worldhistory.
Socialism believes in a mixedeconomy, both public and private
sectors.
Communism is moneyless andclassless.
Socialism sees government as anongoing role of providing
(23:07):
welfare and to regulate markets,where communism sees government
as a temporary tool to submitcapitalism to the way of the
people and then eventuallyeradicate it.
And so, again, we've neveractually seen a full communist
party, and the reason why isbecause of the fall of man
(23:32):
Anytime you have an organizationthat has too much power.
They are manipulative andcorruptive.
You mentioned Russia and Maoism.
They promised socialism.
I'm sorry, they promisedcommunism, but they ended up
with a socialist society wherepower was with the government
rather than the bourgeois, andthey corrupted and murdered
(23:53):
millions of people because of it.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
I was brought up in a socialist state.
Seriously, new Zealand was verysocialist.
Bread was very, very cheapbecause it was subsidized.
Milk was very cheap.
We never we didn't.
Bread was very, very cheapbecause it was subsidized.
Milk was very cheap.
We got free milk in schools.
It cost us $2 to have each ofour children because everything
medicine was subsidized.
You bought state housing if youwanted it.
If you were poor, you got astate house which the government
(24:17):
led you to have really cheap,and I never saw a homeless
person until I came to the US,because there was no very rich
people in.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
New.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Zealand and no very poor, and I was very, very happy
.
So it can work.
But we weren't communists, noteven slightly.
Yeah Well there's a differencebetween communists and
democratic socialists?
Speaker 4 (24:36):
Yeah right.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Yeah, so, ray, tell us about when you voted for
Bernie Sanders.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
That's what we would like to hear about your uncle.
He's got the burn.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
You guys remember that picture of Bernie Sanders
with the mittens.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
Wasn't it at the first inauguration?
Yeah, he was in there with hismittens.
Oh man, it kind of looked likeyour sweater.
I borrowed this one, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
So this is really really good and interesting
stuff.
Thanks, oscar, for just thosedetails and really kind of
delineating between those, and Ithink it is important for us to
remember that everything needsto be thought through carefully.
I think it's easy for us,because we live in a
capitalistic society, to almostadopt it without thinking
(25:24):
through it carefully.
I'm a capitalist, I lovecapitalism, I think it's right
and good and we've seen theoutcome of it, but at the same
time, we can't act like thereare no defects in it and there's
no abuses that could be a partof it, and so I think that's
what ends up happening.
(25:45):
Happening is people end upthrowing out the baby with the
bathwater.
There's some corruption orwhatever, but they don't also,
on the other side, examine itdeep enough to recognize, you
know, the benefits.
So so this is good and and Ithink I think it's important for
us to think carefully like that.
But, ray, as far as communismgoes, it goes beyond economics
(26:06):
Just slightly.
First of all, I'd like us todiscuss this communism's
rejection of God.
That's huge, you know.
In its Marxist-Leninist form,it's basically built on an
atheistic, if you can even callit a worldview.
There's debate on that, butbasically it's built on atheism
and Karl Marx is credited withthat famous saying that religion
(26:30):
is the opium of the people, orthe masses.
Opiate, opiate, opium, opiate.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah, communism seeks to imitate Christianity in that
sense, because you look at thebook of Acts, where they had all
things in common, but it wasgiven willingly, motivated by
love.
And what communism does iswe're going to share everything.
You're rich, so you're going todie so we can get you goods,
and that's what happens.
Atheistic communism has beenresponsible for more than 100
(26:58):
million deaths down through theyears, so it doesn't work
because it's tainted by sin asOscar was saying, yeah, and Mark
this desire to be liberatedfrom God.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
That's okay, let's start right there, because I
would make the contention andthe argument that communism
didn't begin with Karl Marx.
It began in the garden, rightwhen we see Adam and Eve
attempting to go away from God,and it says the earth is the
Lord's and the fullness thereof,the world and those who dwell
therein.
(27:32):
Right, so man tried to seizethat which belonged to God.
I know better than God.
I want what belongs to God,right?
And to Ray's point, as Ray'stalking about really a
capitalistic society as well,and you think about it in Acts
5-4, while it remained unsold,did it not remain your own?
(27:55):
And after it was sold, was itnot at your disposal?
Right?
So Scripture would affirm toprivate property that God does
not desire a forcedredistribution of goods.
We're saying it's thegovernment's responsibility to
take care of the homeless.
It's the government'sresponsibility to take care of
(28:16):
my health.
It's the government's no, no,no.
This is where really nonprofitorganizations come in by and
large, which were a big piece ofthe pie, coming from religious
organizations, from hospitalsbeing founded to anything else.
Or you think of American RedCross, you think of the
Salvation Army having theseChristian foundations saying we
(28:41):
are overflowing with good works,and that's what the Christian
does when somebody has thisparadigm shift and moves from
darkness into light.
They want to be rich in goodworks.
They can't just pass somebodyby right.
Yesterday, you and I, we werein Starbucks and the guy in
front of us looked over at meand said do you have a dollar?
Because he didn't have enoughfor his coffee.
(29:01):
And the teller said you are notallowed to ask for money inside
this establishment, to which hefinished doing what he was
doing.
He went off to the side and youwent right over to him and gave
him a track and you told him toget out of there.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
No, you gave him a track and stole his money.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
You gave him a track and stole his money and you gave
him an in-and-out gift card.
Right?
That's the Christian worldviewwhere we desire to distribute,
not a forced redistribution ofGod's things.
Right, genesis 128, fill theearth and subdue it and have
dominion.
God gave man stewardship, notsocialism.
(29:43):
God gave man the ability to seea need and then fill that need,
not have the government be incharge.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
You know what always intrigues me?
A lot of times you have theseextremely, extremely wealthy
celebrities who got what was theinternet's?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
last indicator Ray of your work 20 million, 20
million and we've gotten lettersthat talk about Ray's billions
of dollars.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
They need to go see your chicken coop, Ray.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
He's wearing borrowed clothes.
If you had that kind of money.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
It would be the most luxurious chicken coop in the
world.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
I actually.
We were at Al's house last weekand I was taking video of his
chicken coop and the littlechicks inside the house and the
birds and my family was justgetting a kick out of it.
You should put it on behind thescenes.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Oh really, so you've managed to actually get chickens
into the house now right?
Yes, of course, with the chicksand your little horse.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
you said oh boy.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
So what were?
You saying Mark should put iton the behind the scenes for
living waters tv because myfamily checks, checks right.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
So anyway, my point was you see a lot of these 28
chickens, now 28, 28 right, canwe eat some?
No, please not eating my ladiesI would love to go and cook one
no, no they, they, you can eattheir eggs.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Oh, that's, that's the fruit of the chicken.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yes, anyways, as I was saying, I'm just mystified
by these extremely richcelebrities who got rich through
capitalism and now they'recomplaining about the
capitalistic society we live inand they want to implement
socialism or whatever.
But, yeah, so you have thatelement.
(31:23):
I think another thing that'd begood to discuss is communism's
misunderstanding of human nature, because there's this, yeah,
and I'd love you to speak tothat, I was gonna, you know
there's this perspective thatpeople will just work selflessly
for the common good, you know,once you remove distinctions,
but you have that sinful naturethat doesn't function that way.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
Yeah, and I'm going to quote Kevin Koizis here.
He wrote a book calledPolitical Visions and Illusions.
I think I've mentioned itbefore.
I really think if you're goingto read one political science
book as a Christian, this is theone to read, because he is a
Christian political scientistand he does such a great job of
dissecting all of the views thatare out there, and one of the
(32:06):
things his big emphasis in thebook is that every ideology
which socialism slash communismis an ideology, along with
conservatism, along withlibertarianism.
All of these are ideologies,and one of the things that he
focuses on is that the root wordof ideology is idol and
ideologies become these idols inour lives and what they do,
(32:30):
every single one of thoseideologies that I just mentioned
.
They tell a story about theworld.
Communism tells a story ofcreation, fall, redemption,
restoration.
According to communism,creation humans are naturally
equal and cooperative.
They are naturally good and canwork together.
The fall is caused by privateproperty, class inequality,
(32:54):
exploitation, ultimately power.
Karl Marx talked about hiddenlaws, that basically, power was
naturally oppressive rather thangiven by God for good.
The redemption story ofcommunism is achieved through a
revolution or a democraticreform and a restoration.
(33:14):
A world of utopia is again thatclassless, economically equal,
just society.
Economically equal just society.
Of course you just mentionedit's a misdiagnosis.
He doesn't recognize humandepravity.
Our root issue is greed andcorruption and oppression, and
he has a false hope.
(33:34):
His false hope is in thisrevolution and state-controlled
outcomes and social engineering.
And so, yeah, it's ultimately amisdiagnosis of the human
condition which leads to a falsesense of hope and worry.
You're going to find a solution.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
That's exactly right.
I can't see that famous sayingthe only thing man learns from
history is that man doesn'tlearn anything from history.
Just look at the track recordof communism to see how it just
failed.
Because of man's depravity itjust cannot produce success.
The essence of communism isthat it rejects God's authority
(34:16):
and I love that.
The way the Ten Commandmentsbegin I am the Lord, your God.
That phrase, I am the Lord,your God, is used over 400 times
in scripture and it's reallygood to understand what it means
.
It means I am the Lord, thesovereign authority, the one
you're going to answer to yourGod.
I'm your creator.
So Richard Dawkins has a God.
(34:38):
God is his God, his creator.
Every atheist has a creator,but he's not their Lord, and you
see it consistently throughScripture you shall love the
Lord, your God with all yourheart, mind, soul and strength.
And we see the gospel appearingin the words of Thomas when he
knelt before Jesus and said myLord and my God.
(35:00):
And that's the essence of what aChristian is.
They take on the Lordship ofChrist and one day, the whole of
what a Christian is.
They take on the Lordship ofChrist and one day the whole of
humanity will bow to theLordship of Jesus.
Every knee will bow.
Wow, that's so good.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Ray, yeah, and it's important for us to remember too
that I think whenever man isempowered and he's void of the
life of God within him, yeah,he's gonna abuse that power.
I mean, that's what we'retalking about.
And, Mark, isn't it interestinghow those who reach the higher
(35:35):
echelons of communist leadershipdon't live out their own
philosophy?
They're not living like theother people.
There's no equality there.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing as we're going
through this.
Right, it's good for the masses, but not for me.
I know how you should live yourlife, but yet you're not living
the way you're preaching, right?
Communism forgets who the realcreator is.
Let's pause for that.
Think about that for just amoment.
Communism forgets who the realcreators and the purpose of life
(36:04):
.
In Psalm 57, verse 2, it says"to God who performs all things
for me", and it's a messianictext referring and pointing to
Jesus Christ.
So every sunset, every sunrise,every flower that blossoms,
what's happening and hiding inthe center of Pluto, is for
Jesus, it is a gift to Jesus, itis for Him.
(36:24):
And we are now along for theride.
All things were created throughHim and for Him.
We just happen to be along forthe ride to enjoy things right.
God richly, and he joyfully,will give us things right.
You ask for a fish.
He doesn't give you a rock.
He enjoys seeing you enjoy.
(36:48):
Communism is the exact oppositeof that, that there's nothing
to enjoy.
You think of what you're saying?
Those people in charge.
They are enjoying the fruits oftheir labor and they're
removing the labor of anybodyand everybody else.
So communism comes along andsays share, or else you are
(37:09):
forced to share, you are forcedto be part of the system.
God says enjoy and steward.
I like that, that we can comealong and we can enjoy giving.
We can enjoy what God has givenus and we don't need to worry
about that, we don't need tofreak out about that.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Oh, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Votibachum.
He said the gospel makesgenerous people, not coerced
people.
So the biggest givers, thebiggest proponents of, I believe
, a capitalistic society whichis, I think, the best fit for a
society, the best fit forwanting to set up nonprofit
organizations or to give and tonot even receive a receipt right
(37:52):
, not knowing what your lefthand is doing from your right is
that Christian society?
So the gospel makes generouspeople.
And when you remove the gospel,which is typically what a
communistic society is going todo, you're going to remove
Christ from the picture, you'regoing to remove the only hope
for a society.
And the only hope for a societyto Oscar's point is the gospel.
(38:16):
So the answer is notnecessarily a socialistic
society, it's not a capitalistic, it's not a communistic society
.
The only hope is the gospel.
And this is so importantbecause we get sidetracked,
thinking that our battle is inWashington DC, our battle is in
local authorities who are goingto set up laws.
And I'm not saying don't vote.
Obviously, for those that arelistening, I'm not swinging to
(38:38):
the other side of the pendulumand you don't either.
I'm simply saying thateverything we do and everything
we interpret and everything wewatch has to go through a
gospel-centric lens.
Why am I doing what I am doing?
But only the Christian can walkin good works.
This is important.
Ephesians 2.10 says that we arehis workmanship, created in
(38:58):
Christ Jesus for good works,that we should walk in them,
meaning a non-Christian can dosomething that looks to be good
but it's plastic fruit.
Only the Christian can actuallywalk in that work, because God
prepared those works for them,and when a non-Christian put it
underneath the umbrella ofsocialistic, communistic,
whatever it is, it actually addsto their damnation, because
(39:21):
that good work is as a filthyrag in the eyes of God, because
nobody is capable of doing goodexcept for Christ, who lives his
life through the Christian.
This conversation is agospel-centric issue and the
only answer is Jesus Christ andhim crucified.
So you may be the bestcapitalist, understand
(39:44):
everything about it, and you maybe the best socialist and you
understand some nuanced areaabout it.
And what people are missing out.
You're both missing out.
You're both missing the markbecause we are not trying to
establish a nation set on goodmoral principles.
Though I vote for somebody whomore aligns to my scriptural
preferences, I'm trying toestablish Christ in each
(40:06):
conversation, in each outgoing,in each conversation.
As I watch a movie, oscar right.
Find the lie when you'rewatching a movie, because
everything has to point back toChrist or you're missing the
mark, no matter how good it mayseem in and of itself.
And then, final quote JohnWesley's mom, susanna Wesley.
She said I don't care how goodit is in and of itself, I don't
(40:28):
care how holy it may seem in andof itself, if it does not point
you and push you to Christ.
You have missed the mark andthe point of what is happening.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Wow, amen, yeah.
And I want to highlightsomething, mark, too, within
that realm that you just touchedon, because you talked about
the plastic fruit of the worldand doing good deeds versus the
Christian.
We have to remember within theChristian scope as well, right,
1 Corinthians 13,.
Man, you can sell your goods tofeed the poor, you can give
(41:03):
your body to be burned, you canbe spiritual by speaking with
the tongues of men and of angels.
You can have knowledge tounderstand all mysteries and yet
not have love, and it profitsyou nothing because you don't
have love.
So, even for the Christian doinggood works, we have to remember
that they can be in vain if themotivation is not love, which I
(41:25):
believe has connected to it allthe attributes of love in 1
Corinthians 13, patience,kindness, selflessness, so forth
, but also infused with agenuine care for the supposed
object of your love.
And so we have to remember thattoo.
Like, why are we doing thesethings as believers?
Because we can be doing themfor our glory.
We want people to see us asthis hero, or as generous, or as
(41:48):
godly, versus like man.
I care for your soul, I carefor your well-being, and as I do
that, I infuse all theattributes of agape love.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
That's huge.
Speaker 4 (42:01):
Again, I want to take a step back and speak from a
place of compassion towards mysocialist friends and I do have
them.
As a matter of fact, I have apicture here of my buddy's
laptop.
It's Karl Marx and it says Iblame capitalism.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
This is a good friend of mine.
Speaker 4 (42:16):
It's a good friend of mine.
I hang out with him regularly.
If you're listening, you knowwho you are and you know that I
love you.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Who pays for the meals?
Speaker 1 (42:26):
To each according to his ability and to his means, to
each according to his need.
Speaker 4 (42:30):
Yeah, listen, I love what you said, mark, and you're
absolutely right the answer tosocialism, communism, is not
capitalism.
You see the cracks, you see theimperfections, and I think
where socialism slash capitalismstarts, is a longing for
something good, a longing forjustice, a longing for equality,
(42:51):
a longing for a world wherethere's none in poverty, where
there's none being oppressed.
But ultimately, your ultimatehope is in politics and not in
the Prince of Peace, and my pleato anybody who's buying into
any of these ideologies is thatyou cannot have heaven on earth
(43:13):
without the cross.
We've tried it before.
We've tried it in Babel.
We tried bringing down utopia.
It started in the Old Testament.
We've tried it in Russia, we'vetried it in the United States,
we've tried it all over theMiddle East.
You cannot have heaven withouta cross, and the more we try to
do that, the more we fail.
So while communism aims forjustice, it aims for justice
(43:36):
without a redeemer, and thegospel calls for justice through
a redeemer.
No political vision can save us.
Only Christ can save us.
And we can get into the detailsabout again.
As I said earlier, thescriptures give us a rubric to
critique all man-made structures, including capitalism,
(43:58):
socialism, communism,libertarianism, and I've heard
friends of mine try to arguefrom the scriptures for
socialism.
I've also heard friends of mineargue from the scriptures for
capitalism.
And this is where I would justtell both parties slow your roll
.
God's economy is so vastlydifferent than the economy of
(44:22):
man.
I mean, look at the OldTestament.
You've got the Sabbath year, inwhich debts are canceled and
the land rests every seven years.
You've got the year of Jubilee,in which land is returned to
families and slaves are freed.
You've got gleanings in whichyou don't maximize profit by
growing crops, but you take whatyou need and you leave the rest
(44:42):
to the poor.
You've got people lending moneywithout interest, and then
you've got tithing laws whichsupport priest festivals and the
poor, and the new Testamentthat's all Old Testament stuff.
How someone?
I heard somebody summarize likethis God's economy is like this
it's provision over profit,that's capitalism, but it's also
(45:04):
provision over power, that'scommunism.
In other words, in God'seconomy we have justice and
mercy and beauty and goodness.
But what you long for will nothappen through policies and
politicians.
It will only happen when Jesuscomes back and brings heaven
(45:25):
with him.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Yeah, amen, oscar, that's so good.
That's so good Again.
You know, we got to be carefulto not be kind of Stupid.
Speaker 4 (45:41):
Well, Good point, Ray .
Speaker 1 (45:43):
Stupid's a good point .
But no, I think we have to becareful not to be secondhand
apologists, meaning that we justdefend something because this
is the right way.
Why is it the right way?
It just is right.
There's no thought, there's nodeep exploration into some of
(46:07):
those things.
I can give you an example forthose who stand for socialism I
quoted it earlier right Fromeach according to his ability,
to each according to his need.
I mean, that sounds good.
Right From each according tohis ability.
You have the ability to eachaccording to his need, but again
, what's missing there is theunderstanding of human nature in
(46:29):
that like, okay, everyone whohas an ability, like they're
going to be honest and declarethat and give according to their
ability when they're beingforced.
And then everyone according totheir need.
When you have a system that'sset up to, you know, in some
ways, you know, benefit thosewho are in need.
(46:50):
Well, you're going to havepeople that are going to
gravitate toward laziness anddevelop and create that need so
that they can receive from thosewho have.
And so you know those thingsneed to be thought through and
understood and dissected.
Speaker 3 (47:03):
That is right.
There is worth the price ofadmission.
Right that if we remove thatheart issue, then you're going
to fall flat.
It's simply not going to work.
It's like the boy that wasalways asking his dad for $10,
and his dad said hey look, goget a job, Go provide for
yourself.
He's all.
No, dad, you have plenty ofmoney, give it to me.
(47:24):
He goes, I'll tell you what, gomow my lawn and I'll give you
$1,000.
He goes $1,000 to mow the lawn.
Absolutely, he mows the lawn,he gets $1,000.
Now, wait a minute.
What I want you to do with thatmoney now is I want you I'm
forcing you without saying ityou give that money to other
people who are not ready andwilling to work.
And he goes wait, wait a minute.
(47:48):
I worked hard for this and itwas as if the light bulb had
turned on.
Right that, wait a minute, Iwork hard, I should be able to
do what I want to do with thismoney.
If anyone is not willing to work, they should not eat.
This is not something that isman-made, this is scriptural.
2 Thessalonians 3.10, right.
So this is not, as one personput it, not capitalistic cruelty
.
It is biblical common sense.
(48:11):
You work, you get paid.
Should you get paid X amount ofdollars or less amount of
dollars?
I mean, I think we shouldeliminate minimum wage
altogether.
I think Prager University putsa really good picture with that.
But Romans 1.28 says and sincethey did not see fit to
acknowledge God, god gave themup right.
So a godless system will alwayscollapse upon itself.
(48:33):
We, always, we must continuallygo back to exactly what you
guys are talking about here,that a socialistic society.
It seems good, you know, intheory, but it'll never work out
on paper as defined by whatwe're seeing, because it removes
God entirely.
We cannot do that.
We have to remember that theheart is deceitful and
(48:54):
desperately wicked, above allthings, yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
And you know, what's interesting too is I think I may
be wrong on this, but from whatI was exploring, it seems
almost, with the exception of,maybe, north Korea, almost every
remaining communist country hasincorporated capitalism to some
degree.
So the system itself, like youwere talking about earlier,
oscar, doesn't really fully workin terms of its foundational
(49:21):
philosophies.
But, ray, there is thismisnomer too that capitalism
breeds greed, which it can, ofcourse, but you've lived in New
Zealand, we've had people inother European countries.
America is the most generouscountry on the face of the earth
.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Oh, that's one thing we noticed as soon as we got
over here that Americans areincredibly generous, very
friendly.
Just while you guys weretalking, I was thinking what I
would say if I had the privilegeto go to some of these angry
universities that just spendnothing but day in, day out
protesting their anger against,basically, america and
capitalism.
What would I say if I wentthere?
And I thought it would beinteresting, because all I want
(50:00):
to do is preach the gospel, andthat because of their background
, atheistic and evolution, etc.
However, when we talk about thegospel, what we're saying is
Jesus came to save us from thewrath, to come, and as fruit of
the gospel there is love, andit's so simplistic sounding, but
love is the answer to everydilemma of humanity.
(50:23):
You shall love the Lord, yourGod, with all your heart, mind,
soul and strength, and love yourneighbor as yourself.
If humanity could do that,there'd be no rape, no murder,
no adultery, no fornication, notheft, no lawyers, no judges, no
prisons.
Everything that we live forwould just be cast aside,
because we'd have utopia.
But humanity cannot do thatbecause it doesn't have the love
(50:47):
that we need.
I mean, there's a rock groupcalled the Beatles from years
ago that sang all we need islove.
And that was just before theirbitter breakup.
And then the hippies that justsaid love, love is all you need,
same thing.
And then you get the CharlesManson come in and you just see
the whole thing tainted and thatresulted in the Jesus
revolution where people come toknow the Lord.
But love is the answer.
(51:08):
It really is.
And that's the fruit of thegospel and that's why we need to
preach the gospel to get peoplesaved by God's grace from the
wrath to come and to bring asociety that's tolerable until
the coming of Christ.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
Yeah, ray, you think about the words of Christ.
There are those times I'vetalked about it before where I
just have to step back and stepoutside of just the grind of the
routine and what we'reaccustomed to and to just hone
in on the words of Christ.
On this hangs all the law andthe prophets.
(51:45):
We hear that in our moderncontext, but you have to
understand godly Jews hearingthat in that day on this hangs
all the law and the prophets.
You're summing it all up inthis.
That's the fulfillment of itall Absolutely.
And you see the divine wisdomin that.
Because if you're walkingaccording to the law of love,
(52:06):
which means that you caregenuinely, like I said, for your
neighbor's welfare andwell-being, you're not going to
be looking for ways to rip themoff or to do them wrong or to
undercut them.
No, you care for his well-being.
So that takes care of all thecommandments that deal with your
interactions with men.
If you truly love God whichmeans what you care for him and
(52:28):
for what His glory You're notgoing to be looking for
loopholes to violate hiscommands and get your own way
and pursue your own ambitionsand desires.
You're going to just love God,so you don't need to be
micromanaged by the law of Moses.
I can imagine those in the dayof Christ that got it and it was
like, of course, it all comesdown to true, genuine love,
(52:53):
which we saw demonstratedthrough Christ, and the cool
thing is we all love, love.
Yeah, love, love love.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
What's love got to do ?
What's love got to do with it?
What's love?
Speaker 1 (53:06):
but a second-hand emotion.
Wow, that was so good.
Speaker 3 (53:13):
I'm reminded of, maybe you guys are familiar with
.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
Richard.
Speaker 3 (53:17):
Wurmbrand.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
Yes, not Richard Wurmbrand.
I mentioned, yeah, the Torturefor Christ.
Torture for Christ.
I heard him speak once.
Speaker 3 (53:24):
I had the opportunity to go to Oklahoma and I met up
with Lynn Copeland and she livesnot too far from Voice of the
Martyrs, located there inOklahoma.
He spent 14 years, most of itin solitary confinement, in a
Romanian prison, a communisticsociety.
He was ransomed for $10,000 outof Romania in 1965.
(53:46):
He testified before the USSenate talking about communism
and he removed his shirt becausenobody believed what he was
saying, about what he wentthrough.
And he removed his shirt and heshowed the scars that he got
when he was there inside aprison because he refused to bow
(54:07):
down to the dictates of themand not preach Christ anymore.
He said communism is not love,communism is a hammer which they
use to crush the enemy.
And then he said they gave medrugs that would distort my mind
and they beat my feet to a pulp, but I had already given up my
mind and my body to Christ sothat they could not take what
(54:30):
was no longer mine.
Let's go.
That is the overarching, thebig picture, 10,000 foot
elevated view down as what'shappening here on earth.
As I visited there, the voiceof the martyrs, I was
(54:52):
dumbfounded at all of thedifferent ways that they're
trying to utilize to go into the1040 window and to reach people
that were unreachable.
And they utilized the work ofRichard Wurmbrand inside that
book Torture for Christabsolutely amazing, millions
have been encouraged by it.
And they had these differentideas to be able to reach.
And he said, look, he was acatalyst to demonstrate, to go
(55:12):
into the highways, the bywaysand the gutterways and to compel
people to reach.
And he said, look, he was acatalyst to demonstrate, to go
into the highways, the bywaysand the gutterways and to compel
people to come.
And they showed me a balloonthat they would give away to
people, and I have one at homeand it has the gospel in Korean.
And what they do is they bringthese balloons down into South
Korea and the one time of theyear when there's a big wind
(55:32):
shift up into North Korea, theyrelease these helium balloons in
South Korea to go over intoNorth Korea and to come down to
populate the gospel in thepopulation of the people who do
not have access to the gospel.
(55:54):
Would this have happened shouldsomebody was not tortured?
Would this have happened shouldcapitalism not have existed in
the way that Richard Wurmbrensaw that in the 1960s?
I don't know God's going toaccomplish his will.
But I'm just saying that Godutilizes and uses what's
happening around us not to raiseour fist, but to raise our
(56:14):
hands and to say Lord, whateveryou want to do, make sure that I
make this.
Whatever.
This is a gospel-centric issuefor your glory, for your fame,
for my good.
Whatever you got to do toglorify yourself, amen.
Good Mark Richard Wurmbren.
Speaker 1 (56:32):
Torture for Christ that stirred my soul, man, thank
you for sharing that.
You know I was recently in acommunist country.
You guys know I went to Cubaand I saw firsthand the ravages
of communism in terms of itssystematic, I think,
deterioration of a society.
And you know the believersthere.
It wasn't like I went and Ijust kind of observed, but the
(56:55):
believers there told us I thinkthe average income is like $7 a
month right now there.
But you know what?
Speaker 3 (57:03):
What are you guys laughing at?
He's already coming up withballoons to put the gospel on it
.
Oh, you're kidding me.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
Oh yeah right, Balloons, no, no.
Speaker 2 (57:15):
But oh yeah, right balloon, no, no, but there's 82
inch balloons, oh yeah, I lovecommunism balloons.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
Oh man, all right, so anyway I.
So I got to see firsthand, um,the, the, just the destruction,
I think, of communism, and againnot just because of its
economic policy, but all theseother things we're talking about
.
We didn't even get into thedestruction of the family
structure, because the statetakes over that.
We didn't get into the creationof envy and class warfare and
(57:41):
the danger of centralized powerand things like that.
But, man, you know, what wasthe most beautiful thing Was
watching these believers thrivein the midst of that because
they treasured Christ.
You guys remember I talked abouthow I got up and I said the
church in Cuba is alive, thechurch in Cuba is powerful, the
(58:02):
church in Cuba loves Jesus.
And then they exploded Amen,and they're not letting it stop
them.
Yeah, there are repercussions,but they keep pushing and
pushing to where the governmentis even stepping back and going.
Wow, these people are actuallyhaving good impact in our
society.
So I know that there arebrethren right now living in
communist countries who arelistening to our voice, and we
(58:23):
just want to encourage you toknow that you are loved by your
brethren here in the UnitedStates of America, that we care
for you, that we're standingwith you, that we're praying for
you and, keeping with what Marksaid, they cannot take Christ
from you, and so treasure him,cling to him and love them with
(58:45):
the gospel, make the gospelknown, because the true hope for
every nation is the gospel.
Speaker 2 (58:51):
And my thought is after reading Tortured for
Christ, is that we need to takeadvantage of the freedom that we
have in this country right now.
Familiarity breeds contempt,and it certainly does.
We can take for granted to apoint where we do nothing in 24
hours for the furtherance of thegospel, and that shouldn't be.
Speaker 1 (59:09):
Yeah, amen.
I love these words by JohnMacArthur.
The gospel is not a call tosocial reform or economic
equality.
It's a call to repentance,faith and holiness.
Amen, brothers, amen, amen, allright, where would we be
(59:29):
without the craziness?
Don't forget the tract starterKit 350 tracts.
This will get you started.
Don't go and get our packedsample Tract Sample Pack and
give those out.
Those are for you to recognizewhat we have and then get the
starter kit next so you can goout and give the gospel out.
Don't forget the Living Watersmug Devin's Study Bible.
(59:51):
Living Waters TV,alllivingwaterscom.
And please, friends, join us onthe podcast YouTube channel,
the Living Waters podcastYouTube channel, and remember
podcast atlivingwaterscomcomcomcom where
you can share your thoughts andyour criticisms of Ray Mark and
Oscar.
And remember, share this withothers wherever you listen and
(01:00:15):
all that good stuff.
Thank you for joining us,friends.
We'll see you here next time onthe Living Waters podcast,
where communist Ray Mark andOscar have no idea what they're
doing.
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