July 3, 2025 • 61 mins
Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar sit down to tackle a weighty and nuanced topic: war. This discussion isn’t about political sides—it’s about wrestling with the moral, spiritual, and personal implications of warfare in a fallen world. Oscar reflects on how perspectives on war evolve over time. He urges caution against jumping into the hype, especially as Christians. People on every side are made in the image of God. War isn’t something to relish. Mark agrees that war is never ideal, but believes it can be justified in certain cases. He points to Scripture and historical examples, including David and Nehemiah, as men who carried weapons while remaining faithful to God. He notes that sometimes war is necessary to establish peace and protect the innocent.
The conversation explores the difference between civil and governmental responsibilities, along with the historic Christian approach to violence. The early church leaned toward pacifism, yet history shows that wasn’t a universal stance. Oscar introduces just war theory, grounded in principles like self-defense, proportional response, and the avoidance of cruelty. Just war never glorifies violence—it permits it under strict moral limitations.
Would a preemptive strike against a hostile nation be justified if credible threats were discovered? Mark believes that standing against tyranny can be an act of love toward one’s neighbor. Oscar, however, questions whether such actions always align with just war principles. He points to past U.S. actions—like the tragic downing of a civilian plane—as reminders of how quickly moral clarity can blur. E.Z. underscores the danger of biased media by comparing contradictory headlines from CNN and Fox News, reminding listeners to seek truth from multiple sources. Ray shares how he deliberately checks both conservative and liberal news sources to challenge his own assumptions.
Oscar shifts the conversation to the spiritual aspect of war—reminding listeners that violence is a consequence of sin. Defensive war may sometimes be necessary, but it must always be a last resort. Believers are called to be peacemakers because God made peace with them. Mark closes with a powerful story of the Christmas Day truce in World War I. For a brief moment, enemies laid down their weapons in recognition of something greater than the battle. The guys challenge listeners to do the same—raising hands in prayer instead of fists in anger. Scripture urges believers to love peace and pursue it. Before taking sides, one must ask: is there a heart that grieves the loss of life, or one that revels in destruction?
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You can connect with us at podcast@livingwaters.com. We're thankful for your input!
Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I am so refreshed by the heart from you guys.
Truly, like I, was expecting usto come to this from a
different perspective and tohear the tension and the lament
behind the reality that war isan unfortunate consequence to
the fall.
It's a part of the life that welive in and waiting for the
(00:20):
kingdom to come that is bothhere and not yet.
And to those who are listening,I wanna to offer just a
connection to the gospel.
Why should we, as Christians,be hesitant to agree with war
man?
We just talked about Iran andhow much they hate America.
Death to America.
The heart of every single manwages war on God in the same way
(00:45):
that Iran wages war on us.
In our heart of hearts we'resaying death to God, death to
God.
We are that World War IIwarmonger that wants control of
the world away from God.
And God does not drop a bomb onus.
He could, but instead he offerspeace.
He bears the violence of theworld.
(01:07):
He doesn't return it.
The gospel calls us to bepeacemakers because God first
made peace with us.
So why, when we hear Iransaying death to America, should
we still lament the unfortunatereality that we may have to go
to war with them, because weknow that we said death to God
and he offered peace Wow.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
The other day I was going on the very humble
four-mile walk that my wifeRachel and I go on regularly, in
all humility and as we were onour four-mile walk on the Yerba
Linda walking trails, Mark,aren't they glorious.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
They're nice, they're glorious.
No, we love them, we do it.
I mean, we don't stop at fourmiles.
That's just like our warm-up.
But you know, I'm with you yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
So when we finished our four-mile warm-up and did
our 400-mile walk, yeah, stillmy warm-up.
Which was our second warm-up,yeah.
And then did thefour-million-mile walk, yeah
still my warm-up.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
There's nowhere you can go.
You cannot win this.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Okay why, don't women do this?
Because they're sane.
Women don't do this stuff.
Men have to keep competing.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
I walk on the moon, yep, they walk on the moon.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I knew exactly what Ray was about to say.
All right, anyway, we were onour lovely walk when I saw
someone walking.
He's proud of that A dog I sawsomeone walking a dog.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Would you keep on with us?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
I saw someone walking a dog no bigger than a snail
and I said it was a small dog.
It was actually a snail, I hadto say to Rachel some dogs are
so small it just doesn't makesense to walk them.
Seriously, have you guys seenthese people?
It's like walking an ant on aleash.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
I've heard of people getting treadmills for their
dogs.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yeah, ray, you should create leashes for ants, take
your ant on a walk, my ant wouldnot enjoy that no.
Yeah, it just doesn't makesense to me.
I could yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
Is there a point to this?
Yeah, is there ever.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
It makes it good for the listener.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I'm just telling you, there's just no point, but I
will say this though what drivesme crazier than that is people
who put their dogs in strollersor on little feminine baskets,
like Ray does.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Don't even say that Ray's got a dog.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
It's so silent, what's?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
the difference actually.
This is a really good point.
I hate it bitch.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
This is a great point .
No, no, the big wheel With yourVelcro shoes, jenna.
Speaker 5 (03:43):
Parshall, we did that .
She introduced me as the guywith the basket the dog on the
basket.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I said no.
No when I'm 93, I'll get athree-wheeler and maybe a basket
, I don't know.
What kind of flowers does yourbasket have?
Speaker 1 (03:56):
We should buy him one of those Hot Wheel cars you
just drive around.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
People don't know that Lucy's like one of those
animatronic things.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
You can get them now, okay, very realistic.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
But you guys know that there are people that
actually the stuff people.
You remember, I'm from Lebanonokay.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Where you eat dogs, oh, but close, we don't eat dogs
, but close, no, but I'm fromLebanon.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
It's like the thought of a dog coming in your house.
It's like it's not even aconcept.
What do you mean?
A dog in a house?
It's like saying you drivearound with an elephant in your
car.
Speaker 5 (04:32):
What's wrong with that?
What's?
Speaker 4 (04:33):
wrong with that?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I knew you were going to say that, don't you.
Speaker 5 (04:35):
That would get a crowd to think of that.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Not in a house In your little bug.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
That would be dogs in the house.
It's just because dogs aredirty animals.
Yeah, it's just a dog isoutside.
It's like what do you mean?
A dog in the house.
So all that to say you guysunderstand the things people do
for their like.
I just heard recently someonewho has uses white noise for
their dog to sleep at night.
White noise for the dog?
Yeah, for the dog to sleep atnight?
Yeah.
So I mean the more and morethings happening for animals in.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
In fairness, my dog's therapist says that my dog's
masseuse.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
All dogs are service dogs now.
It drives me crazy.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Seriously, though, guys, it's gotten overboard.
Ray, I know you love dogs, butit has gotten overboard.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
It certainly has.
Yeah, I agree, it's not thesize of the fight and the dog.
It's the size of the dog andthe fight.
It's the other way around.
I see that.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
But that led Rachel and me to talk about white noise
, because I go crazy.
There's this new trend.
You go through different trendswith kids, but a lot of people
use white noise for their kids.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
You better explain that it sounds racist.
What is?
Speaker 4 (05:40):
white noise it's like the static on a.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
TV channel back in the day.
That wasn't working.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
You get all kinds right, From waves to pans.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
No, no, but I'm talking about the like rain
white waves, somebody snoring.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I personally think, well, good point, because I
think what you should do withyour children when they're
babies is play snoring noisesfor them.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
So that when they get married, they have a spouse
that snores.
Speaker 5 (06:03):
Oh, you prepared them .
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Seriously man.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
And yawning to help people sleep.
The yawning Ray tell us aboutYonese please.
Speaker 5 (06:12):
I produced a 60-minute tape called Yonese,
the Insomniac's Dream, where itwas 60 minutes of pure, non-stop
, genuine yawns that I repeatedand I was going to put it on my
market.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
I never did you know what I thought it was?
I bought it.
You know what I thought it was.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
You bought it, matt, I bought it.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Oh, really, you did not.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
I did.
Yeah, I was on the other sideof the cassette tape, yeah, yeah
, oh, you bought the tape.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah, comfort's Favorites, yeah, I'd go, oh a
Sanya one.
The next day it arrived in themail.
I was like, okay, these peoplekeep their word.
But I'll tell you this, ray, Ithought the Yonis because it's
on the same, I think it may beeven right afterwards, I think
at the end is the keeper.
I thought Yonis was demoniclike demonic noises.
Speaker 5 (06:58):
I actually got the recording from one of Ken Ham's
congregations.
I just put a microphone to hisaudience.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
But seriously, I thought it was like.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
It's how to get rid of unwanted health guests.
That's right.
Speaker 5 (07:12):
I said that too.
I forgot about that, Mark yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
So anyway, whatever Dogs leashes, who cares?
Speaker 5 (07:19):
So seriously, you don't like little dogs, it's not
, I don't like little dogs, it'sdogs, it's little dogs on
leashes.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
You have this like Pekingese Pomeranian.
It's like the size of my cup.
That dog can.
Going from its water bowl toits bed is enough walking for
that dog.
Their legs are like this big.
What's wrong with that?
You got people on the trailstaking them on like two, three
miles.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Well, it's the law.
It has to be on a leash.
Maybe that's it.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Have you seen the treadmills for dogs?
You don't take it for a walk,Mark.
There's treadmills for dogs.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Treadmills for dogs.
Oh boy, there's a dog channeltoo.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
There's people.
They build mansions for theirdogs and animal care.
Air-conditioned dog houses,that's.
Televangelist.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
Remember that.
Yes, that was big news in the80s, where televangelists used
donor money to buy airconditioning kennel for the dog.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
I know a guy that flies in private planes because
he doesn't want his dog toexperience having to go into a
whatever you call those things abox or whatever.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
They don't have to do that anymore.
It seems like everybody has adog on the plane.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Dogs go everywhere.
Speaker 5 (08:20):
I hate, it when I'm sitting there in first class and
then you have all these dogs.
You just pretend to be blind ormentally and you can have a
service call.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Just close the pod.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Just close your pod.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Mark.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Close my pod.
All these dogs around.
Dogs should not be allowed inrestaurants.
That's all I got to say.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
All right friends and time for a.
What am I supposed to eat?
Cool oh.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
All right, this is from Al Stevens.
Hello, years ago I watched RayComfort and Kirk Cameron do
street witnessing.
I found this podcast and, inall caps, love IT, with two
exclamation marks.
I have to be honest.
At first, easy really got undermy skin with the high-pitched
closing Amen.
Now, after five episodes, I waslaughing until I cried on
(09:02):
episode 335, especially at theend when EZ signed off.
Good guy Al.
All the guys joking back andforth is so fun as well, and
such biblical truths are relayed, but not in a boring way.
Your podcast will take off asit's found.
God bless Al.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Thank you, Al.
I will say that EZ's demeanoron the podcast is found in
scripture when it says the slowdripping of water.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
The demoniac Mark four.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
This is me, who I am, I love me and now a radically
revolutionary resource.
This podcast is brought to youby the Ten Commandments coins.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
The Ten Commandments coins and raise billions of
different treasure chests.
Speaker 5 (09:47):
I love the treasure chest.
I am not kidding.
All I see on your desk.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Anymore is treasure chests.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
I've been buying them with my own money because I
love them so much and justgiving them to the ministry.
It's just that they'refantastic and to have a treasure
chest filled with TenCommandment coins.
We've got the gold coins, we'vegot the silver coins, they've
got a perceived value, they'renot plastic, and so it really is
a treasure to lift up that lidlike a pirate and give people
(10:18):
the Ten Commandment coins.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Is that why you've?
Speaker 5 (10:19):
been wearing a patch, Frank.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
No, that's a nicotine patch.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
On his eye A nicotine patch.
Speaker 5 (10:26):
On his eye, a nicotine patch on the eye.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Oh boy, Smokers laugh there Still.
Speaker 5 (10:32):
Yeah, I saw a guy wind his window down in his car
so he could smoke.
Why?
Speaker 1 (10:37):
don't they keep them up.
Speaker 5 (10:39):
Get your money's worth.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Do you know a pirate's favorite movie to see?
Speaker 5 (10:43):
No.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Ones that are rated.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
R Cheesy, oscar, all right, friends.
Oh, and don't forget the LivingWaters mug from which you can
chug and, if you want, you cangive it a hug, hug, hug.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Don't forget to have a study Bible.
This Bible will bring aboutrevival Living Waters TV and the
podcast YouTube channel.
Speaker 5 (11:02):
For the people who heard that for the first time,
you're going to love it afterfive times All that.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
Blackwater.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Blackrom.
Yeah, it's kind of a pirateOscar is what I was going for.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
All right, friends.
Today we're talking about, isit?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
wrong for Christians to support war?
Is it support war or go to war?
To support war?
Well, either you go to it orsupport it, or say it's nice.
Speaker 5 (11:29):
That's an important distinction.
I support you guys out therefighting.
I'm at home.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Go for it Now, ray your dad was.
Speaker 5 (11:35):
he was in the military, he was a desert rat.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Tell us about that.
What is that?
Speaker 5 (11:39):
Yeah, they were rats in the desert.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
That's what they were called, because they they
fought rommel, my dad.
He actually meant to call yourat comfort.
I actually signed.
Speaker 5 (11:48):
I typed my name because the y is next to the t
and I actually assigned my namerat accidentally, but my dad
never saw uh, never saw action,really.
Yeah, he was very fortunate hedidn't get shot and, uh, I'm
pleased about that.
If he'd been killed there'd bedead silence at the moment on
the podcast.
Oh, that's true.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
You wouldn't be here, right?
No, so what's a desert rat?
Speaker 5 (12:11):
They would designate the desert rats, because I have
no idea.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
I was waiting for a gutter snipe explanation.
Speaker 5 (12:16):
Yeah, they ate rats in the desert.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know.
You have no idea, you have noidea, no, but I do know about
rats.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Tell us, how are your rats, ray, speaking of?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
rats Great transition Ray how are your rats.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
It's a really good transition to what we're talking
about.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
This is why it's a good transition to what we're
talking about.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
I'm going to say something that's going to
disgust you, but I can handle it.
Yesterday a rat was probablysix inches long got loose out of
our chicken coop.
Okay, it was running around thelawn.
My dog, lucy, is an Australianship.
She's an Aussie doodle and allher instincts came up.
When she chases a ball.
The ball bounces so quickly youcan hardly follow it with your
(12:52):
eyes, but she's following itwith her nose.
She's that quick.
She was after this rat withevery muscle in her body, every
ounce of energy was chasing thisrat and we were saying go for
it, go for it.
And then she got it, put itunder her foot and the rat
lifted up, looked at her andcried no, it broke my heart, it
broke my heart.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
yes, You're getting emotional right now.
Speaker 5 (13:12):
Yeah, it broke my heart because I'm not going to
put a spade through a rat.
We let it go in the front lawn.
What you see now, that'sdisgusting, and we're talking
about going to war.
And I think to myself I am soweak and tender.
Men should not react like thatto a rat.
But how could I ever go to warand shoot someone?
So this is a dilemma I've foughtfor the last 40, 50 years as
(13:33):
I've looked at Scripture.
You can see both sides Loveyour enemies, shoot them.
You know, with good advice,make war.
So there's a fine dividing lineand I'm so glad that I've gone
through 75 years.
I haven't had to go to war.
I haven't been conscripted, andeven if I was now, I'd be
useless as a soldier.
Unless they issued everysoldier with an electric bike,
(13:56):
I'd be okay.
And a dog, yeah, and a dogSunglasses on the front of the
bike.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Ray would have fit in really well with the early
church, that mindset.
Yeah Well, let me, just Let mesay this I'm so glad that we're
addressing subjects like this.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Recently we talked about the death penalty, and I
think that's good.
We need to discuss things likethat, and I think one of the
things that people appreciatedwas that in that episode in
particular and we do this allthe time we share the fact that
we may have different views onthings.
But that's the beauty of thebody of Christ.
You know that when it comes tosecondary issues, there can be
charity in that, there can belatitude where we say, look,
(14:34):
this is not an essential issue.
We may hold our viewstenaciously and feel strongly
about them, but there has to bea grace that's involved to say,
look, these are not essentials.
And so, while we can evendebate them and, and, and, you
know, in a spirited way, at theend of the day we need to have
that gracious heart and attitude.
And we've talked before aboutpacifism, uh, on the or
(14:56):
self-defense, rather, uh, but wewant to, you know, talk and we
can.
We can talk about thingsrelated to it, but we want to,
yeah, talk about war, becauseit's a big thing and it's an
important topic to tackle.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Man.
Yeah, I've been doing a lot ofwriting lately and so I've been
trying to write more of my ownwords, Book Possibly Leading up
to a book.
Ray's been trying to encourageme in that direction.
But I summarize sort of mystudy of should Christians
support war, specificallylooking at the early church and
this brief paragraph which saysour views on just war have
(15:30):
changed over time, so much sothat when many Christians now
consider just would likely shockAugustine.
Augustine, We've gone from apersecuted church with pacifist
impulses very important, not apacifist church, a pacifist
impulses to a church entangledin empire.
From Augustine's cautiouspermission to wholesale American
(15:51):
militarism.
We are like a frog in boilingwater.
We didn't notice how far we'vedrifted.
We may find yourself condoningwhat the with the early church
condemned.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, I think it's important to pause and not get
caught up in the hype.
What do I mean by that?
I do believe war is necessaryat times.
I do believe that Christiansare not in sin to engage in war.
But what I have found is thisglee among many Christians when
(16:27):
it comes to war, they're hawkish, they're warmongers, almost in
attitude and mindset.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Yeah, get those guys.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
You're talking about human lives.
You're talking about peoplemade in the image of God.
Speaker 5 (16:42):
Mothers and fathers and children.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Absolutely, people made in the image of God,
mothers and fathers and children, absolutely.
And so there's this sort oflike yeah, we're the United
States of America, we'repowerful, and it's easy to be
influenced by that spirit, youknow.
But man, war is not somethingto gloat about, it's not
something to revel in, and I dothink it is an area that
(17:04):
believers can differ on, and soI'm looking forward to hearing
what you guys think and why, andto get into that.
So, mark, I'd love to hear yourperspective.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
To start with, I remember there was a time when I
would have different relativesthat would come to me and say I
want to join the military andalmost without fail, I would
talk them out of it, in thesense that I would say you know,
I don't know if it's the bestidea, you know for you, and
(17:34):
here's the reasons why.
Or, I think it is a really goodidea, right, you don't know
what you're doing in your life,you don't have a stable family
at home, you don't.
Yeah, I think it's really great.
And then you have the differentwars that are out there and why
we go to war and things of thatnature.
I do think that war isjustifiable.
(17:55):
You know, in Genesis, chapter 14, starting in verse 14, it says
now, when Abram heard that hisbrother was taken captive, heard
that his brother was takencaptive, he armed his 318
trained servants who were bornin his own house and he went in
to pursue as far as Dan.
He divided his forces againstthem by night and he and his
servants attacked them andpursued them as far as Hobah,
(18:18):
which is north of Damascus.
So he brought back all thegoods and also brought back his
brother, lot and his goods, aswell as the woman and all the
people.
So Abraham did not write aletter to Sodom, he went to war.
I think that there is, and I'mnot saying all war right.
What is war?
(18:38):
W-a-r.
Oh, we are right, we are right.
Right.
That's why we go to war.
We go to war because we areright and you feel the same
thing.
You feel that you're right andthat's why you're going to war
with us.
Possibly if it is a nation likeours, in that maybe it's
democracy rules, but I don'tthink that all war is a good
(18:58):
idea.
And how do you pick that?
If you are in the military, youdon't get to have a say in that
you are going to war if you arein the military, right?
So Romans 13, 4, I'll be thefirst one to quote it Thanks,
mark, for he is God's servantfor your good, but if you do
wrong, be afraid, for he doesnot bear the sword in vain.
(19:26):
The sword of God by ourgovernment is designed to bring
peace.
That is the point and thepurpose, I think, for war.
Right that we're going to warfor peace.
And if you don't go to waroftentimes, then you will not
have peace.
(19:46):
That war is the only answer ina world that is hell-bent on
bringing destruction.
That's why we go to war, right?
So Trump, who's currently inoffice?
He cannot say that we are goingto war.
(20:06):
He can't say that withoutCongress, unless he's bringing a
defense of protection.
It's the only reason Al Mohlercame out with something really
good on the briefing.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
It was brilliant.
I listened to it.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
I highly recommend the briefing by Al Mohler Jr and
his definition.
Al Mohler Jr, there's a time tolove, a time to hate, a time
for war and a time for peace, asyou guys are just slicing these
off of your notes there.
Thank you, mark.
(20:41):
Maybe one more.
Blessed be the Lord, my rock,who trains my hands for war and
my fingers for battle, right?
So, david, he didn't just liftholy hands, he lifted hands that
had a sword inside of them.
Unless we think of, forgetabout, was it Nehemiah who was
at building the wall and he hada sword in one hand and what is
(21:03):
it called?
A trowel?
A trowel in the other, as he'sbuilding the wall.
There is a place I'm just notexcited about all the war that's
taken place, and I remember,before my dad became a Christian
, I asked him Dad, are you goingto heaven when you die?
And he said no, I've killed toomany people in war.
(21:25):
Because he went to Vietnamtwice and that was his reason
why he thought he did not gainthat access into heaven.
And then, like the apostle Paulwe'll get into that a little
bit later with Stephen, therewas that epiphany, there was the
opening of the eyes, theunveiling took place and
realized that God saves the mostwretched of sinners.
(21:50):
He's able to do it to thegutter most.
He still does it today.
Finally, francis Schaeffer tofail to stand against tyranny is
to fail to love your neighbor,and if we love your neighbor,
we're going to fight for ourneighbor.
So we have war that iscommissioned and approved and
designed by our government, butthere's also war inside of our
(22:11):
communities to protect ourfamily and to protect our fellow
neighbor.
That is a war that takes place.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
That's good, mark, yeah, and I would say I'd love
to hear you, oscar, on this.
But I would say that there isthat we are right aspect of war.
Then I think there is the weare righteous aspect of war,
which is like there is arighteous cause in the defense
of the innocent, in the defenseof a nation that's being
(22:39):
unjustly attacked.
And then I think there is thewe are ruthless aspect of war,
where there are those that arejust wicked, ruthless people
that don't care about people.
They just want to conquer, theywant to rule, they want power,
and so I think it's important toexplore that.
I would say, in terms of what weknow from the tone and tenor of
(23:01):
the Old Testament, that ifwe're speaking principally, war
is not something that is bydefinition unrighteous.
God called for righteous warsfor different reasons.
In fact, he used the childrenof Israel as an instrument
through which he passed judgmenton other nations.
And God would tell theIsraelites clearly it's not
because of your righteousness,it's not because of your
(23:23):
greatness, but it's because ofthe wickedness of these nations
that I'm using you to dispossessthem, and so forth.
And I'm sure Oscar has a lot tosay on this, but I think a lot
of times there could be theconfusion of a lot of the things
that Jesus touched on in termsof loving our enemies, in terms
of turning the other cheek andso forth.
That I think contextually givea different perspective on that.
(23:46):
It's not that you can't thwartunrighteousness, but it's your
interrelational as an individualdisciple of Christ.
How do you interact with othersin a civil way in that regard
and for the testimony of thegospel?
But I think there is adistinction to be made between
the civil and the governmentalelements of how you defend a
(24:08):
nation, and can Christianspartake in that?
So let's get into that, oscar.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
I think it's clear that EZ is awarmonger.
I actually resonate quite a bitas I hear you, ray, and you,
mark, talk about this.
I sense a tension that's there.
You mentioned image bearers andI resonate with that tension of
looking at the scriptures andlooking at culture and reality.
(24:35):
And again, you know, we kind ofturned to the early church in
the last episode and I'm goingto do it again in this one,
because I think in this subjectit's really valuable for us to
see how our theology of war haschanged over time, if it's
influenced by, you know, if youcan look at the theory of war
and the way that the church didfor the first 300 years, or has
(24:58):
it changed?
Did Rome change its perspective?
Did America change itsperspective?
And so what you see in thatearly church is a similar
tension that Ray was mentioning,which is that the early church,
as I said before, leanedheavily toward a pacifism type
view of the world, notpacifistic in the sense that we
would understand pacifism.
(25:18):
Essentially, they saw thatviolence was incompatible with
following Jesus.
But they weren't totallypacifistic, because we have a
lot of examples of, whileChristians did not participate
in war, they did pray for apositive outcome in war.
They were non-combatantparticipants.
(25:41):
And so Origen, as a primeexample, says we no longer take
up the sword against nation, nordo we learn war anymore.
We have become children ofpeace, for the sake of Jesus.
Another historian I'm sorry, achurch father in the first 300
years says it is always noticeit is always unlawful to put to
death a man whom God willed tobe a sacred animal.
(26:03):
Another example is thatsoldiers and officials in the
first 300 years would be.
Another example is thatsoldiers and officials in the
first 300 years would beexcommunicated or barred from
baptism if they became a soldier.
Tertullian critiques militaryservice.
He basically says like in orderto be a part of the military,
you need to swear an oath tomilitary leaders, and his quote
(26:29):
says one soul cannot serve bothGod and Caesar.
And so there is this it'simportant to just recognize in
the first 300 years there isthis instinct against bloodshed.
But it's not historicallyaccurate to say the church was
totally against war becauseagain, you also have examples of
people in the early churchpraying for positive outcomes
and participating innon-combatant ways.
Again, you also have examplesof people in the early church
praying for positive outcomesand participating in
(26:52):
non-combatant ways.
Then you fast forward a littlebit and one of the things that
we've talked about before we'vethrown around this phrase just
war.
That is a phrase borrowed fromAugustine.
See how kind I am to my enemy.
You're very nice.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
What a grace.
You need to do that, for me tointerject.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
So something different happens post-Nicene
shift, remember.
Christianity becomes a statereligion in 380 through the
edict of Thessalonica, and nowthe church is grappling with the
ability to have power and whatit looks like to preserve
(27:38):
Christian virtue and enterAugustine's theory of just war.
It's important to contextualize, because I actually asked AI
about Augustine's theory of justwar and it gave a very skewed
perspective, which is an exampleon how we can't always rely on
AI.
So it's important to have abackground.
(27:58):
First, the first time Augustinetalks about just war, he
doesn't talk about it in City ofGod.
There's actually quite a bit ofletters that he's exchanging
with people as they're askinghim for help, and one of the
first times the fascinatingstory it was the church of
Corinth.
There was slave trade happeningand Corinth is a port city and
(28:21):
so these slavers were bringingin slaves, many of them children
and women.
Why children?
Because this is terrible, butchildren had more of a lifespan,
so they were worth more asslaves.
So these Christians arewitnessing these slave traders
come through Corinth and they'resending letters to Augustine
like what should we do?
And one day they decide in anon-combative way in the middle
(28:45):
of the night to go in there andunlock the cages and steal these
slaves away from the slavetraders.
And now they're hiding them intheir homes and in their
churches, trying to get them togo back to their land.
And they're writing Augustinelike hey, the city's coming down
hard on us.
Did we do the right thing?
People are arguing whether wedid the right thing or not, and
(29:08):
he says that your war againstthe slave traders is just Now.
It's important to recognizethat they never raised a sword,
they never fought anybody.
They simply went in there andfreed the slaves from the slave
traders.
Fast forward a little bit.
Rome falls to the Goths, andnow you've got this
(29:30):
discombobulated Rome and youhave people that own land.
And these Goths are coming inand they're basically talking
through like what should we dohere?
And in City of God?
Augustine makes it very clearyou thought Rome was God's
country, and it wasn't.
It was Babylon.
Side note that's important forus to consider as Americans.
He then says to them, though itis valuable for you to consider
(29:56):
defending Christian virtue ifit means being attacked by the
Goths.
And so Henry Chadwick summarizesAugustine's just war theory,
and a lot of people will sayAugustine laid out these three
or four or five criteria.
It actually wasn't Augustine's,just war theory and a lot of
people will say Augustine's laidout these three or four or five
criteria.
It actually wasn't Augustine,it was Henry Chadwick that
summarizes Augustine.
He says basically, just warmeans self-defense or recovery
(30:20):
of stolen property.
Its aim is always peace, notconquest or revenge.
It's always proportional inforce to revenge.
It's always proportional inforce.
It has a respect for humanityand avoids humiliation.
And we should always preservethe idea of prisoners of war.
(30:42):
In other words, we need toprotect their rights even when
they are our enemies.
So to summarize the idea ofgust war permits war but never
glorifies it.
It recognize it as always beingtragic and it limits its reason
to go to war.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
I love that, oscar.
I think you know that.
That really sums up what I,what I think is the the
preferred virtuous perspectiveon war, especially not glorying
in it, not making it out to bethis wonderful thing, like we're
(31:18):
going to just get in there.
We are the United States ofAmerica and I think sometimes
there's this lack of integration.
One of the greatest things Ilearned when I was in Bible
college was that principle ofintegration versus
compartmentalization, where wesort of segregate our faith to
certain aspects of our lives,versus integrating our faith
into everything.
(31:38):
Our faith informs everything.
There's no like, oh well,that's different.
So now I'm an American soldier,so I'm going to talk like this
and act like that, god forbid.
But I think it's important toofor us to, as Christians,
whatever the early church mayhave done, to do what the
Reformers taught us to do, andthat's go back to Scripture.
Even with the Reformers,sometimes people will say, well,
(32:01):
martin Luther, you know he wasanti-Semitic, whatever, well, he
was wrong.
It doesn't mean, you know we'renot.
You know those that are sayinglock, stock and barrel.
Everything that the Reformersheld to was right.
So I think that's why we needto be biblical and say, well,
let's explore, let's examine.
So, mark, I want to throwsomething to you in this vein.
If some man broke into yourhouse and began to attack your
(32:24):
wife, would you stop them?
Speaker 3 (32:29):
I would do all that I can to stop them, of course,
and I would use whatever meansthat I can, and it would make
sense to me because theirintention, as they went across
that barrier, is to do harm.
Nothing else would make senseto me.
And though I would leave roomin my mind right now that he
(32:51):
could have ulterior motives notto hurt, not to harm, I don't
know what those would be, butthat's not how you go about
doing it.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
No.
So if someone came in and triedto attack your wife and your
children, would you defend them?
Speaker 3 (33:04):
I would shoot them with my 12-gauge, I would use
buckshot and I would take themout.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Okay, Ray, if someone was attacking your next-door
neighbor and was attempting tohurt them and murder them and
you had the ability to stop them, would you do that, or would
you just turn a blind eye?
Speaker 5 (33:21):
I'd use my starter pistol.
Starter pistol, I'd send.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Lucy over there.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
But principally, right, yes, definitely, yeah,
definitely.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
And in my perspective that's what just war is, and I
would tie it to Romans 13, likeyou already did.
Mark that the governingauthorities do not bear the
sword in vain.
Now it's in an organized,governmental fashion where the
cause of war, as we expand, thatis for the sake of defending
(33:53):
those that are within yourborders, within your boundaries.
Speaker 5 (33:56):
It's easy to forget that war has radically changed
in recent years.
We don't take up the sword andspill the blood of our enemy.
We push a button and send amissile and blow them to pieces
without seeing his blood.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Yeah, exactly so, and this is a good point to discuss
.
So, like right now, obviously,in recent days or weeks or
months, whenever this is airingobviously the United States of
America went and bombed Iran andthe perception was that they
have nuclear bombs or were, I'msorry, were attempting to enrich
(34:30):
uranium to create nuclear bombs, and that they are a nation
that has sworn death to America.
It's not just a slogan, butit's in their charter, it's like
, it's a part of, like, theirtheology.
Speaker 5 (34:45):
And they've killed over a thousand Americans.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yeah.
So maybe we differ on this.
I don't know.
What do you guys think, oscar?
What do you think about that?
Do you think that?
Let's say the intel?
And when we talked about itwith the death penalty, we said,
hey, you've got to be careful.
Yeah, some of us may say thedeath penalty is fine, but you
can't just do it without total,absolute proof.
(35:07):
There has to be care.
But you can't just do itwithout total, absolute proof.
There has to be care.
So, oscar, let's say that therewas verifiable evidence that,
as much as possible frommultiple independent sources
that verified that they weren'ttrying to enrich uranium,
they've already spoken theirintents to want to destroy the
United States.
Do you think that what we didwas just?
Speaker 1 (35:28):
I'm going to give you an answer you're not going to
like, which is I don't know,because I I like that answer.
Speaker 5 (35:34):
I like that answer.
Do you like that answer?
Speaker 3 (35:36):
I am.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
I sense this desire in me to try to respond to
current events, but I also sensesort of the Dunning-Kruger
effect taking in me, likegeopolitical conversation is so
complicated.
I want to say it was just.
But I also want to humbly lookback and recognize preemptive
(36:01):
strikes is a newer version ofjust war.
Augustine wouldn't have agreedto it.
I also look back in history andthink of the second gulf war in
which we were told that therewere weapons of mass destruction
and now universally, both sidesof the aisle are like whoops,
it wasn't, um.
I also want to recognize that wetalk about iran as evil, but
(36:22):
like the story is complicated,what was it?
1988 we shot down an airlinerwith 280 something.
And can you imagine if anairplane left Los Angeles for
Peru?
And it turns out Iran had amilitary boat off the shore of
Mexico and shot down an airlinerwith 280 people that were just
(36:45):
trying to go on vacation?
We did that to them.
So I just I think, yes, what wedid was just in this current
situation with Trump aspresident, but I also just know
geopolitical stuff is reallycomplicated and I don't want to
Dunning-Kruger myself into it?
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Yeah, I'd like to explore that.
I'm not familiar with thatinstance.
I know Iran had hijacked ourplanes.
I know they killed 200 andsomething soldiers in Beirut, my
country.
Speaker 5 (37:14):
Can't we say, instead of saying we shot down that
plane, they did it, I don't knowanything about it?
If I'd been asked, I would havesaid no.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yeah, I don't know anything about that.
But, oscar, what you're saying,though, is true in that we need
to be careful, because I oftenthink about wmds right, the
whole weapons of massdestruction, and saran was and
has them but at the same time, Ithink as well that we need to
be careful, because then wewould say, oh well, then any
kind of evidence we can'tbecause of that versus like,
(37:41):
look, there may be differentsources of intel, there may be
ways that they, you know, uh,came to that conclusion I want
to say a side note.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
I think it's really important.
Like, the Atlantic is prettyanti-Trump and they released an
article a couple of days agojustifying Trump's actions, and
so I just want to say, like thisis just a, it's just a.
It's interesting because rightnow there's quite a bit of
people that would agree.
Even people who universallydisagree with Trump are backing
him.
And then there are people whohave universally agreed with
(38:10):
Trump who are not backing him,which is very interesting.
So it's just very complicated.
My expertise is not ingeopolitical matters which is
why I want to say I don't know.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
I think, but I don't know.
Yeah, mark, what do you think?
Speaker 3 (38:24):
When it comes to war in general.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
This particular instance with Trump.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
What do we have?
We only have what we've beentold.
We always got to remember thatright that if your only source
of news is from Fox, you have aproblem.
If your only source of news isfrom CNN, you have a problem,
because who is really behind thenews in which we get right?
(38:50):
So we really got to be carefulin the midst of this right.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah, on that point, Mark, if I can real quick.
And just yesterday I showedsomeone this because I took a
screenshot of CNN's headline onthe website.
I took one of Fox's.
One said military success inthe bombing of Iran's you know,
Fordd military nuclear base.
And then one said did not fullydestroy ford military.
(39:15):
They were like the exactopposites.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
So like you're saying we're at the mercy, yeah, and I
do believe that there are someextreme leftists, yeah, who
would find fault in trump iftrump I saw this Fox News
yesterday if Trump were toeradicate cancer, some people in
the far left would get upset atTrump for doing away with
oncologists.
Speaker 5 (39:40):
You have eliminated people in the workforce?
Speaker 3 (39:42):
right, but here's the thing, right, this isn't just
leftists and CNN, this is onboth sides.
Right that Democrats can do nogood in the eyes of some
Republicans.
Right that it's only demonized,no matter what route you go, no
matter what you take.
So, to answer your questiondirectly, I would say, if the
(40:03):
information that I received,which is to eliminate the
ability of Iran to create thesenuclear missiles, whatever it
may be, that seems like a reallygood thing, right, because I
really do believe that theirgovernment wants to destroy
America at all costs, that weare the infidel, right?
(40:27):
I don't think there's any wayaround that.
A couple quotes, a couplethoughts.
Right, francis Schaeffer.
He said, to fail to standagainst tyranny is to fail to
love your neighbor.
Spurgeon, a time will come whenpeace means cowardice and war
means righteousness.
(40:47):
I'm not needing to make thesedecisions, though, right?
So, because I'm not able tomake these decisions, all I know
is these little 30-secondsnippet Instagram newsreels,
which is, by and large, wherepeople get their news.
I was surprised to see Tuckerinterview Ted Cruz concerning
(41:09):
this.
I don't know if you saw that,but there was fireworks amongst
the two and I thought.
I thought you were on the sameside.
Am I that far removed now towhat is happening?
So, bottom line for me, I thinkthat there are times when war
is justifiable.
Right, and you had asked me thequestion if somebody breaks
(41:31):
into my house, let me quote averse Exodus 22,.
If a thief is found breaking inand is struck so that he dies,
there shall be no blood guiltfor him.
Right, ray saying, if he had areal gun, he would start at the
foot and work his way up.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Right, I don't Did you know that he has to aim up
at the foot.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
Right, sometimes fighting for peace means
fighting period.
That's what Mel Gibson said,right?
Listen, we just got to becareful in the midst of this.
This is why it is so importantto pray for our governmental
leaders that God puts people inplace and for you not to vote,
whoever you are.
It is a terrible act let metake it a step further of
(42:13):
treason towards your governmentthat we have the ability to put
people in place.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
That is how God works supernaturally, in a very
natural way, ray we're talkingabout current war, right Israel
and Iran, and then the UnitedStates getting involved.
But you're somewhat, in myopinion, a World War II buff.
I know that you've reallyexplored a lot of World War II.
Speaker 5 (42:37):
Wrote a book.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Your dad fought in it .
You wrote a book on it.
One of my favorite memorials inDC is a World War II memorial
where you have these stars thatare affixed to the wall and each
one of them represents 10,000,there's 400 stars, 10,000 lives
that were given in World War II,and at the bottom it says here
we mark the price of freedom.
I mean, sometimes it's easy forus to walk around and say, oh,
(43:01):
you know, forget war, this andthat, like those that are like
hardcore pacifists and they'reliving in the benefits of those
that went to war to defend us.
So what do you think ofsomething like World War II?
Should the United States havegotten involved?
Speaker 5 (43:13):
I think the United States should have gotten
involved sooner than what theydid.
They were isolationists, butthey were provoked to be
isolationists by people who havebeen placed by the enemy within
America.
Fifth columnists, I think theywere called, where they would
cause strikes and all sorts ofthings to try and bring the
nation down or create confusion.
Yeah, I just can't help butthink 50 million people like us
(43:39):
four guys died in that war.
Why?
Because some little twit thatlooked like Charlie Chaplin
decided he wanted to rule theworld just because of that, it's
just absolutely crazy.
This whole world's a tinderbox.
I am a fan of Fox, but Ideliberately go across to CNN
(44:01):
regularly so I get a balance,because I know Fox know their
customs Customers, they knowtheir base and their whole thing
is pump Trump, and we'll get agood bottom line, and CNN say
dump Trump, we'll get a goodbottom line.
And so that's why Mark is soright about just being careful
what you listen to, because youcan be shaped by what you listen
to.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Moving away from geopolitical matters for just a
bit and back on just war as atheory in general.
One of the guys who makes, Ithink, one of the strongest
points for just war is a hero ofmine who I quote often, which
is CS Lewis.
He has a discussion on Luke3.14 as a reminder.
(44:44):
Jesus just got done calling thePharisees a brood of vipers.
He's in the middle of you know,people are getting baptized and
people are asking him whatshould I do?
A tax collector comes to himwhat should I do?
And he gives him advice.
And then a centurion that'ssomeone enlisted in the army
comes to him and says what?
Speaker 5 (45:02):
should I do?
Speaker 1 (45:04):
This is Jesus, luke 3 .
He says so the centurion islike I just got baptized, what
should I do with my life?
And he says be content withyour wages.
And CS Lewis points out thatJesus never told the centurion
to quit the army.
He simply said be content withyour wages.
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
That's good, that's really good, yeah, and I found
this online.
I think it was a really goodsummation, like it's when war
may be justified, when war isunjustified.
So when war may be justified,defensive war, protecting
citizens from aggression,justice for the oppressed.
When diplomacy fails, resistingevil, preventing genocide or
tyranny and upholding order,maintaining a lawful society.
(45:45):
And then, when war isunjustified, greed, conquest,
revenge, religious coercion, adisregard for civilians or
unjust, targeting nationalismelevated above God's word,
that's huge.
And disobedience to God's morallaw in battle.
I think it's a good kind ofsummation to look at.
And then, in terms of the justwar doctrine by Augustine and
(46:09):
then Aquinas, augustine, so justcause, which is to stop real
evil, genocide, invasion, properauthority declared by a
legitimate government, rightintention, goal must be peace,
not conquest.
Last resort, all options mustbe be exhausted.
I think that's an important one.
Has diplomacy been given a shot, you know?
Uh, proportionality, force mustbe measured, not excessive.
Speaker 5 (46:33):
and then discrimination civilians and
non-combatants must be protectedso when we see augustine in
heaven, who uh you?
Speaker 3 (46:41):
heard augustine.
Speaker 5 (46:42):
You heard him hang on a minute, let me finish, let it
be the last word, when he sayshow he pronounced his name
between the two of you, so wehave peace in heaven augustine
will set us straight, for sure.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
Yeah um, I I am so refreshed by the heart from you
guys.
Truly, like I, was expecting usto come to this from a
different perspective and tohear the tension and the lament
behind the reality that war isan unfortunate consequence to
the fall.
It's a part of the life that welive in and waiting for the
(47:14):
kingdom to come that is bothhere and not yet.
And to those who are listening,I want to offer just a
connection to the gospel.
Why should we, as Christians,be hesitant to agree with war
man?
We just talked about Iran andhow much they hate America.
Death to America.
The heart of every single manwages war on God in the same way
(47:39):
that Iran wages war on us.
In our heart of hearts we'resaying death to God, death to
God.
We are that World War IIwarmonger that wants control of
the world away from God.
And God does not drop a bomb onus.
He could, but instead he offerspeace.
He bears the violence of theworld.
(48:01):
He doesn't return it.
The gospel calls us to bepeacemakers because God first
made peace with us.
So why, when we hear Iransaying death to America, should
we still lament the unfortunatereality that we may have to go
to war with them, because weknow that we said death to God
and he offered peace.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
That's so good, oscar , amen.
And you think of what Scripturesays in terms of and James
talks about why there's warsbetween you, and he talks about
that desire, that fleshly desire, really and, mark, that's a
(48:45):
reality today between believersWars and fights among you.
Why are there wars and fightsamong you?
It's that desire that drawtowards self-centeredness.
And right now and this is agood segue we're talking about
war in the geopolitical sense,but there are wars going on in
(49:06):
churches today.
There are wars between churches, there are wars within a given
local church, between itsmembers, and I'd love you to
speak to that.
What's the solution?
How do we get?
Speaker 3 (49:17):
past that Humility, christ.
Humility is missing from anysort of argumentation anymore.
Remember that's when we watch adebate.
We want to see our side sweepthe floor with your side.
I'm reminded of what you'resaying.
I'm reminded of the Christmastruce of 1914, world War I.
(49:38):
I remember being in Oklahomaand seeing at the museum where
it was called the Battle in theTrenches that's where World War
I was right.
And you had this moment whereon Christmas Eve and Christmas
Day, where you had the Brits andthe Germans coming out and
there was a truce for those twodays there's a video on that and
(49:59):
they came out and theyexchanged gifts with one another
, they sang hymns with oneanother, they played soccer.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Wait, this is real history.
Yeah, absolutely, I didn't knowabout that.
Speaker 5 (50:09):
It's incredible.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
It's on.
Speaker 4 (50:10):
YouTube.
Did I see it in a moviesomewhere?
It's on.
Speaker 5 (50:11):
YouTube yeah, wow.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
These guys were shooting at each other.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
You have two 18-year-olds who are trying to
kill each other, some not evenreally understanding all that is
happening, right, and withoutthe access to the internet, to
television, the radio andeverything else that's happening
.
You just have your marchingorders.
Imagine this you have twoChristians that are trying to
kill each other and calling fora truce in order to recognize
(50:41):
that God is in this place, thatwe are fellow image bearers,
right?
I'm getting emotional thinkingabout this, trying to destroy
you in your future lineage.
I want to kill you, and it'slike we're holding up a white
flag.
For just a moment, if thechurch did this for just a
(51:02):
moment.
Yeah, but you're not Lutheran,you're not Episcopalian, you
don't attend Calvary Chapel.
You're Baptist, but what sortof Baptist Are you?
Reformed Baptist?
Yeah, but which confession?
Are you Right To wave the whiteflag and to recognize that God
is bigger than what is going on?
Have you ever had an argumentwith your wife and you're like,
(51:24):
you're 30 minutes in.
You're thinking to yourselfwhat are we even arguing about
anymore?
We just want to be right andoftentimes and this is where
easy I think that you'reabsolutely amazing in this area
when it comes to, I just want tobe heard.
I just want to make sure youunderstand the angle from which
I'm coming from and that I'mokay with whatever decision you
(51:46):
want to make, but you understandthat I'm coming from this angle
, this angle and this angle, andthis is my understanding, my
understanding, my understanding.
You get that right and you go.
I get that Great.
Hey, god has placed you incharge whatever you want to do.
If we did that by and large withthe church, the bickerings they
(52:06):
would cease.
And we see in 1 Corinthians,chapter 11, with Paul.
So Paul with that daily concernof the church, the things that
would come upon him, the weightthat was upon his shoulders and
the decisions that he had tomake, and he said the least of
all, that I would not expect thewar that came from within the
church that was upon him.
So there is a greater war thatis taking place and we have to
(52:28):
remember that we do not fightagainst flesh and blood, but
against principalities andpowers, against demonic forces
that want to take us down.
If we leave the house realizingthat we are in a spiritual
battle, when we get cut off fromthat person, if you live in
California, you're going to getcut off.
I got cut off.
(52:49):
Today You're not raising a fist, but you're raising holy hands
to pray for that person.
You don't know what they'regoing through and I remember
reading earlier today about awoman who lost her husband and
she went into the public and shehad to buy groceries and she
thought to herself nobody has aclue what I'm going through.
(53:12):
I still have to buy food for mykids and the sales clerk looks
at me and says, hi, having agreat day.
You don't know what somebody'sgoing through.
Slow to speak, quick to listen,slow to wrath and anger.
Speaker 2 (53:29):
So good, mark.
It reminds me of what Paul saysin Corinthians, where he's
talking about believers, brother, going to court with brother,
and that before unbelievers.
Is that not to your shame?
He says why not rather be wrong, rather be?
Speaker 3 (53:42):
wrong.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
Why not rather be defrauded, but you wrong and
defraud and it's like againstyour brother, like Ray.
There is that place where Icall it the itch right?
Why do we make that insult?
That's brewing in our mindsthat we know we shouldn't.
It's because it's an itch andwe just we got to scratch it
(54:04):
rather than learning to holdback.
You know, ray, is it an issueof self-control?
Is it.
Speaker 5 (54:11):
Yeah, it's an issue of not having the wisdom that's
from above.
You know, scripture talks aboutthe wisdom that's below King
James, devilish, that's in theheart of Demonic right.
Yeah, it's demonic, it's in theheart of man and that's what
we've got to recognize in all ofus, and we strive to have the
wisdom from above which ispeaceable, open to reason,
willing to yield.
(54:31):
Yeah, willing to yield, justgive up and give it to God.
I look at some of the things inthe Old Testament, some of the
wars, and I can't justify them.
They're pretty bloodthirsty,hacking someone to death in war
with a sword.
If I was there I'd probablyjust go for a long walk or
something.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
Elijah hacking.
Agag the pieces.
Speaker 5 (54:53):
That's what I was thinking of and that's because
that's probably what he saidwhen it happened, agag.
Anyway, atheists will oftenpoint to God as being a
warmonger in the Old Testamentand say God told Joshua to kill
all the Canaanites.
And there's a good comeback toatheists when they say that you
just say to them did thisactually happen?
And they say yes.
(55:15):
So you're saying the Bible'sright and they say no, it didn't
happen.
So what are you worried aboutthen?
Just like getting upset becauseCinderella's coach turned into
a pumpkin at midnight it's?
If it didn't happen, don't getupset, that happened, it did.
Speaker 2 (55:28):
Oh yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (55:29):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (55:30):
Being the pumpkin yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:32):
That's a documentary.
Yeah, that's so good, ray, it'sman.
Rachel and I were talking aboutthis the other day.
We were going on one of ourglorious four-mile walks, which
we do regularly.
Speaker 5 (55:47):
It's pride.
Speaker 2 (55:49):
Humility, humility.
And I said to her, if you thinkabout it, everything,
everything in life that issinful ultimately, or righteous,
spiritual disciplines, whatever, ultimately comes back to
self-control.
Everything I mean I'm going toget angry with you, upset with
(56:11):
you or not Self-control.
I'm going to pray daily.
Self-control or lack thereof.
Speaker 5 (56:17):
David Solomon, all those self-control.
Speaker 2 (56:20):
Right.
I mean, don't you guys thinkthat it all comes back to
self-control, which good newsfor the Christian is our
birthright?
It's part of the fruit of theSpirit.
We have access to it, and whenwe don't access it, we have no
excuse.
No temptations come upon us,except what's common to man.
God is faithful, 1 Corinthians10, 13.
He'll provide the way of escapeso that we can stand up under
(56:42):
it or endure it.
And so, as I often say, it'snot that we can't, it's that we
won't.
And so we need to get back tothat place of saying man, I need
to access what I have.
And I think sometimes it's thatforgetfulness which is still
our fault, because we're nottraining ourselves to remain
mindful of what we need toremember.
So it's again like the guy whohas an eighth-degree black belt
(57:06):
and has given martial art butgets amnesia, forgets, finds
himself in an alleyway with somelittle pipsqueak trying to
threaten him, starts knocking atthe knees.
Speaker 4 (57:16):
Hey, I'll get you.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
Knocking at the knees and he takes off running.
It's not that he doesn't havethe power, it's that he's lost
that remembrance or thatmindfulness that he has it.
So we need to remember we havethe power that raised Jesus from
the dead dwelling in us and man.
We need to make peace with ourbrethren.
We need to go the extra mile.
(57:39):
We need to be at peace with allmen, as far as it depends on us
.
Speaker 5 (57:44):
So if you go the extra mile, will that be a
five-mile walk?
Speaker 2 (57:46):
Five-mile walk with Rachel.
Speaker 4 (57:48):
Okay, do it.
Speaker 2 (57:52):
But we need to remember that, we need to keep
that in mind and I hope, inlight of what we talked about in
terms of our outlook andperspective on war, that we
check our hearts.
Do we glory in it?
Do we find glee and like, ohyeah, it's great Versus, like
thinking about what that meansHuman lives being destroyed,
(58:14):
oftentimes for foolish reasons?
Speaker 5 (58:16):
In Psalms God condemns those who delight in
war.
Speaker 2 (58:20):
Yeah, amen.
Speaker 5 (58:22):
And do you realize your four-minute walk could be
overcooked if you both went onelectric bikes for a minute walk
what you guys?
Speaker 1 (58:27):
walk.
What you guys don't know isthat rachel does the walking and
she pushes easy in one of thoselittle doggy strollers as I
hold the dog listening to whitenoise.
Speaker 2 (58:37):
Yeah yeah, anyhow, well, guys, I, I, man, what a
great discussion.
Yeah and uh, I just I can'temphasize enough how much I
respect you guys.
Um, and you know we we joke alot and stuff, but we love each
other, we respect each other.
The lord's given us a sweetcamaraderie and partnership in
the gospel, like we do thispodcast, but behind the scenes
(58:59):
we're we're preaching gospeltogether and we are ministering
to people together and we'retraveling the world together,
and what a joy that God hasgiven us this.
And I think we talked aboutthis recently.
One of the greatest joys wehave about the podcast is the
example it gives other believersin terms of the fellowship we
(59:20):
can have, because, friends, whatwe're doing here is something
you can replicate with otherbrothers, that's all.
We're brothers.
We're sitting around a table,yeah, we're talking to these
microphones, but we're like weget there's times I forget we're
doing a podcast, we're lost inthe moment because we're
fellowshipping.
We're edifying each other,encouraging each other,
sharpening each other.
Speaker 4 (59:45):
And I hope you guys All right.
Friends, don't forget to takeyour commandments coins the
treasure chests all at LivingWaters.
Speaker 2 (59:53):
Here the Living Waters mug, the Adventist Study
Bible, living Waters TV.
And don't forget the podcastYouTube channel all at
livingwaterscom.
And don't forget podcasts atlivingwaterscom where you can
give us your comments, yourthoughts, your ideas and hey
guys, continue to send commentsin Also on the platforms you
listen to and to like and toshare.
Speaker 4 (01:00:11):
Thank, you for joining us, friends.
We'll see you here next time onthe Living Waters.
Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
Podcast where we have no idea what we're doing what
EZ is doing.
Yeah, I don't know.
I am so refreshed by the heart from you guys.
Truly, like I, was expecting usto come to this from a
different perspective and tohear the tension and the lament
behind the reality that war isan unfortunate consequence to
the fall.
It's a part of the life that welive in and waiting for the
(00:20):
kingdom to come that is bothhere and not yet.
And to those who are listening,I wanna to offer just a
connection to the gospel.
Why should we, as Christians,be hesitant to agree with war
man?
We just talked about Iran andhow much they hate America.
Death to America.
The heart of every single manwages war on God in the same way
(00:45):
that Iran wages war on us.
In our heart of hearts we'resaying death to God, death to
God.
We are that World War IIwarmonger that wants control of
the world away from God.
And God does not drop a bomb onus.
He could, but instead he offerspeace.
He bears the violence of theworld.
(01:07):
He doesn't return it.
The gospel calls us to bepeacemakers because God first
made peace with us.
So why, when we hear Iransaying death to America, should
we still lament the unfortunatereality that we may have to go
to war with them, because weknow that we said death to God
and he offered peace Wow.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
The other day I was going on the very humble
four-mile walk that my wifeRachel and I go on regularly, in
all humility and as we were onour four-mile walk on the Yerba
Linda walking trails, Mark,aren't they glorious.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
They're nice, they're glorious.
No, we love them, we do it.
I mean, we don't stop at fourmiles.
That's just like our warm-up.
But you know, I'm with you yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
So when we finished our four-mile warm-up and did
our 400-mile walk, yeah, stillmy warm-up.
Which was our second warm-up,yeah.
And then did thefour-million-mile walk, yeah
still my warm-up.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
There's nowhere you can go.
You cannot win this.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Okay why, don't women do this?
Because they're sane.
Women don't do this stuff.
Men have to keep competing.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
I walk on the moon, yep, they walk on the moon.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I knew exactly what Ray was about to say.
All right, anyway, we were onour lovely walk when I saw
someone walking.
He's proud of that A dog I sawsomeone walking a dog.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Would you keep on with us?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
I saw someone walking a dog no bigger than a snail
and I said it was a small dog.
It was actually a snail, I hadto say to Rachel some dogs are
so small it just doesn't makesense to walk them.
Seriously, have you guys seenthese people?
It's like walking an ant on aleash.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
I've heard of people getting treadmills for their
dogs.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yeah, ray, you should create leashes for ants, take
your ant on a walk, my ant wouldnot enjoy that no.
Yeah, it just doesn't makesense to me.
I could yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
Is there a point to this?
Yeah, is there ever.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
It makes it good for the listener.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I'm just telling you, there's just no point, but I
will say this though what drivesme crazier than that is people
who put their dogs in strollersor on little feminine baskets,
like Ray does.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Don't even say that Ray's got a dog.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
It's so silent, what's?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
the difference actually.
This is a really good point.
I hate it bitch.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
This is a great point .
No, no, the big wheel With yourVelcro shoes, jenna.
Speaker 5 (03:43):
Parshall, we did that .
She introduced me as the guywith the basket the dog on the
basket.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I said no.
No when I'm 93, I'll get athree-wheeler and maybe a basket
, I don't know.
What kind of flowers does yourbasket have?
Speaker 1 (03:56):
We should buy him one of those Hot Wheel cars you
just drive around.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
People don't know that Lucy's like one of those
animatronic things.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
You can get them now, okay, very realistic.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
But you guys know that there are people that
actually the stuff people.
You remember, I'm from Lebanonokay.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Where you eat dogs, oh, but close, we don't eat dogs
, but close, no, but I'm fromLebanon.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
It's like the thought of a dog coming in your house.
It's like it's not even aconcept.
What do you mean?
A dog in a house?
It's like saying you drivearound with an elephant in your
car.
Speaker 5 (04:32):
What's wrong with that?
What's?
Speaker 4 (04:33):
wrong with that?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I knew you were going to say that, don't you.
Speaker 5 (04:35):
That would get a crowd to think of that.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Not in a house In your little bug.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
That would be dogs in the house.
It's just because dogs aredirty animals.
Yeah, it's just a dog isoutside.
It's like what do you mean?
A dog in the house.
So all that to say you guysunderstand the things people do
for their like.
I just heard recently someonewho has uses white noise for
their dog to sleep at night.
White noise for the dog?
Yeah, for the dog to sleep atnight?
Yeah.
So I mean the more and morethings happening for animals in.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
In fairness, my dog's therapist says that my dog's
masseuse.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
All dogs are service dogs now.
It drives me crazy.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Seriously, though, guys, it's gotten overboard.
Ray, I know you love dogs, butit has gotten overboard.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
It certainly has.
Yeah, I agree, it's not thesize of the fight and the dog.
It's the size of the dog andthe fight.
It's the other way around.
I see that.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
But that led Rachel and me to talk about white noise
, because I go crazy.
There's this new trend.
You go through different trendswith kids, but a lot of people
use white noise for their kids.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
You better explain that it sounds racist.
What is?
Speaker 4 (05:40):
white noise it's like the static on a.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
TV channel back in the day.
That wasn't working.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
You get all kinds right, From waves to pans.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
No, no, but I'm talking about the like rain
white waves, somebody snoring.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I personally think, well, good point, because I
think what you should do withyour children when they're
babies is play snoring noisesfor them.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
So that when they get married, they have a spouse
that snores.
Speaker 5 (06:03):
Oh, you prepared them .
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Seriously man.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
And yawning to help people sleep.
The yawning Ray tell us aboutYonese please.
Speaker 5 (06:12):
I produced a 60-minute tape called Yonese,
the Insomniac's Dream, where itwas 60 minutes of pure, non-stop
, genuine yawns that I repeatedand I was going to put it on my
market.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
I never did you know what I thought it was?
I bought it.
You know what I thought it was.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
You bought it, matt, I bought it.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Oh, really, you did not.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
I did.
Yeah, I was on the other sideof the cassette tape, yeah, yeah
, oh, you bought the tape.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah, comfort's Favorites, yeah, I'd go, oh a
Sanya one.
The next day it arrived in themail.
I was like, okay, these peoplekeep their word.
But I'll tell you this, ray, Ithought the Yonis because it's
on the same, I think it may beeven right afterwards, I think
at the end is the keeper.
I thought Yonis was demoniclike demonic noises.
Speaker 5 (06:58):
I actually got the recording from one of Ken Ham's
congregations.
I just put a microphone to hisaudience.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
But seriously, I thought it was like.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
It's how to get rid of unwanted health guests.
That's right.
Speaker 5 (07:12):
I said that too.
I forgot about that, Mark yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
So anyway, whatever Dogs leashes, who cares?
Speaker 5 (07:19):
So seriously, you don't like little dogs, it's not
, I don't like little dogs, it'sdogs, it's little dogs on
leashes.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
You have this like Pekingese Pomeranian.
It's like the size of my cup.
That dog can.
Going from its water bowl toits bed is enough walking for
that dog.
Their legs are like this big.
What's wrong with that?
You got people on the trailstaking them on like two, three
miles.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Well, it's the law.
It has to be on a leash.
Maybe that's it.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Have you seen the treadmills for dogs?
You don't take it for a walk,Mark.
There's treadmills for dogs.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Treadmills for dogs.
Oh boy, there's a dog channeltoo.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
There's people.
They build mansions for theirdogs and animal care.
Air-conditioned dog houses,that's.
Televangelist.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
Remember that.
Yes, that was big news in the80s, where televangelists used
donor money to buy airconditioning kennel for the dog.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
I know a guy that flies in private planes because
he doesn't want his dog toexperience having to go into a
whatever you call those things abox or whatever.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
They don't have to do that anymore.
It seems like everybody has adog on the plane.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Dogs go everywhere.
Speaker 5 (08:20):
I hate, it when I'm sitting there in first class and
then you have all these dogs.
You just pretend to be blind ormentally and you can have a
service call.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Just close the pod.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Just close your pod.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Mark.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Close my pod.
All these dogs around.
Dogs should not be allowed inrestaurants.
That's all I got to say.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
All right friends and time for a.
What am I supposed to eat?
Cool oh.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
All right, this is from Al Stevens.
Hello, years ago I watched RayComfort and Kirk Cameron do
street witnessing.
I found this podcast and, inall caps, love IT, with two
exclamation marks.
I have to be honest.
At first, easy really got undermy skin with the high-pitched
closing Amen.
Now, after five episodes, I waslaughing until I cried on
(09:02):
episode 335, especially at theend when EZ signed off.
Good guy Al.
All the guys joking back andforth is so fun as well, and
such biblical truths are relayed, but not in a boring way.
Your podcast will take off asit's found.
God bless Al.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Thank you, Al.
I will say that EZ's demeanoron the podcast is found in
scripture when it says the slowdripping of water.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
The demoniac Mark four.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
This is me, who I am, I love me and now a radically
revolutionary resource.
This podcast is brought to youby the Ten Commandments coins.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
The Ten Commandments coins and raise billions of
different treasure chests.
Speaker 5 (09:47):
I love the treasure chest.
I am not kidding.
All I see on your desk.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Anymore is treasure chests.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
I've been buying them with my own money because I
love them so much and justgiving them to the ministry.
It's just that they'refantastic and to have a treasure
chest filled with TenCommandment coins.
We've got the gold coins, we'vegot the silver coins, they've
got a perceived value, they'renot plastic, and so it really is
a treasure to lift up that lidlike a pirate and give people
(10:18):
the Ten Commandment coins.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Is that why you've?
Speaker 5 (10:19):
been wearing a patch, Frank.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
No, that's a nicotine patch.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
On his eye A nicotine patch.
Speaker 5 (10:26):
On his eye, a nicotine patch on the eye.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Oh boy, Smokers laugh there Still.
Speaker 5 (10:32):
Yeah, I saw a guy wind his window down in his car
so he could smoke.
Why?
Speaker 1 (10:37):
don't they keep them up.
Speaker 5 (10:39):
Get your money's worth.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Do you know a pirate's favorite movie to see?
Speaker 5 (10:43):
No.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Ones that are rated.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
R Cheesy, oscar, all right, friends.
Oh, and don't forget the LivingWaters mug from which you can
chug and, if you want, you cangive it a hug, hug, hug.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Don't forget to have a study Bible.
This Bible will bring aboutrevival Living Waters TV and the
podcast YouTube channel.
Speaker 5 (11:02):
For the people who heard that for the first time,
you're going to love it afterfive times All that.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
Blackwater.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Blackrom.
Yeah, it's kind of a pirateOscar is what I was going for.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
All right, friends.
Today we're talking about, isit?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
wrong for Christians to support war?
Is it support war or go to war?
To support war?
Well, either you go to it orsupport it, or say it's nice.
Speaker 5 (11:29):
That's an important distinction.
I support you guys out therefighting.
I'm at home.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Go for it Now, ray your dad was.
Speaker 5 (11:35):
he was in the military, he was a desert rat.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Tell us about that.
What is that?
Speaker 5 (11:39):
Yeah, they were rats in the desert.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
That's what they were called, because they they
fought rommel, my dad.
He actually meant to call yourat comfort.
I actually signed.
Speaker 5 (11:48):
I typed my name because the y is next to the t
and I actually assigned my namerat accidentally, but my dad
never saw uh, never saw action,really.
Yeah, he was very fortunate hedidn't get shot and, uh, I'm
pleased about that.
If he'd been killed there'd bedead silence at the moment on
the podcast.
Oh, that's true.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
You wouldn't be here, right?
No, so what's a desert rat?
Speaker 5 (12:11):
They would designate the desert rats, because I have
no idea.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
I was waiting for a gutter snipe explanation.
Speaker 5 (12:16):
Yeah, they ate rats in the desert.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know.
You have no idea, you have noidea, no, but I do know about
rats.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Tell us, how are your rats, ray, speaking of?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
rats Great transition Ray how are your rats.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
It's a really good transition to what we're talking
about.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
This is why it's a good transition to what we're
talking about.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
I'm going to say something that's going to
disgust you, but I can handle it.
Yesterday a rat was probablysix inches long got loose out of
our chicken coop.
Okay, it was running around thelawn.
My dog, lucy, is an Australianship.
She's an Aussie doodle and allher instincts came up.
When she chases a ball.
The ball bounces so quickly youcan hardly follow it with your
(12:52):
eyes, but she's following itwith her nose.
She's that quick.
She was after this rat withevery muscle in her body, every
ounce of energy was chasing thisrat and we were saying go for
it, go for it.
And then she got it, put itunder her foot and the rat
lifted up, looked at her andcried no, it broke my heart, it
broke my heart.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
yes, You're getting emotional right now.
Speaker 5 (13:12):
Yeah, it broke my heart because I'm not going to
put a spade through a rat.
We let it go in the front lawn.
What you see now, that'sdisgusting, and we're talking
about going to war.
And I think to myself I am soweak and tender.
Men should not react like thatto a rat.
But how could I ever go to warand shoot someone?
So this is a dilemma I've foughtfor the last 40, 50 years as
(13:33):
I've looked at Scripture.
You can see both sides Loveyour enemies, shoot them.
You know, with good advice,make war.
So there's a fine dividing lineand I'm so glad that I've gone
through 75 years.
I haven't had to go to war.
I haven't been conscripted, andeven if I was now, I'd be
useless as a soldier.
Unless they issued everysoldier with an electric bike,
(13:56):
I'd be okay.
And a dog, yeah, and a dogSunglasses on the front of the
bike.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Ray would have fit in really well with the early
church, that mindset.
Yeah Well, let me, just Let mesay this I'm so glad that we're
addressing subjects like this.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Recently we talked about the death penalty, and I
think that's good.
We need to discuss things likethat, and I think one of the
things that people appreciatedwas that in that episode in
particular and we do this allthe time we share the fact that
we may have different views onthings.
But that's the beauty of thebody of Christ.
You know that when it comes tosecondary issues, there can be
charity in that, there can belatitude where we say, look,
(14:34):
this is not an essential issue.
We may hold our viewstenaciously and feel strongly
about them, but there has to bea grace that's involved to say,
look, these are not essentials.
And so, while we can evendebate them and, and, and, you
know, in a spirited way, at theend of the day we need to have
that gracious heart and attitude.
And we've talked before aboutpacifism, uh, on the or
(14:56):
self-defense, rather, uh, but wewant to, you know, talk and we
can.
We can talk about thingsrelated to it, but we want to,
yeah, talk about war, becauseit's a big thing and it's an
important topic to tackle.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Man.
Yeah, I've been doing a lot ofwriting lately and so I've been
trying to write more of my ownwords, Book Possibly Leading up
to a book.
Ray's been trying to encourageme in that direction.
But I summarize sort of mystudy of should Christians
support war, specificallylooking at the early church and
this brief paragraph which saysour views on just war have
(15:30):
changed over time, so much sothat when many Christians now
consider just would likely shockAugustine.
Augustine, We've gone from apersecuted church with pacifist
impulses very important, not apacifist church, a pacifist
impulses to a church entangledin empire.
From Augustine's cautiouspermission to wholesale American
(15:51):
militarism.
We are like a frog in boilingwater.
We didn't notice how far we'vedrifted.
We may find yourself condoningwhat the with the early church
condemned.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, I think it's important to pause and not get
caught up in the hype.
What do I mean by that?
I do believe war is necessaryat times.
I do believe that Christiansare not in sin to engage in war.
But what I have found is thisglee among many Christians when
(16:27):
it comes to war, they're hawkish, they're warmongers, almost in
attitude and mindset.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Yeah, get those guys.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
You're talking about human lives.
You're talking about peoplemade in the image of God.
Speaker 5 (16:42):
Mothers and fathers and children.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Absolutely, people made in the image of God,
mothers and fathers and children, absolutely.
And so there's this sort oflike yeah, we're the United
States of America, we'repowerful, and it's easy to be
influenced by that spirit, youknow.
But man, war is not somethingto gloat about, it's not
something to revel in, and I dothink it is an area that
(17:04):
believers can differ on, and soI'm looking forward to hearing
what you guys think and why, andto get into that.
So, mark, I'd love to hear yourperspective.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
To start with, I remember there was a time when I
would have different relativesthat would come to me and say I
want to join the military andalmost without fail, I would
talk them out of it, in thesense that I would say you know,
I don't know if it's the bestidea, you know for you, and
(17:34):
here's the reasons why.
Or, I think it is a really goodidea, right, you don't know
what you're doing in your life,you don't have a stable family
at home, you don't.
Yeah, I think it's really great.
And then you have the differentwars that are out there and why
we go to war and things of thatnature.
I do think that war isjustifiable.
(17:55):
You know, in Genesis, chapter 14, starting in verse 14, it says
now, when Abram heard that hisbrother was taken captive, heard
that his brother was takencaptive, he armed his 318
trained servants who were bornin his own house and he went in
to pursue as far as Dan.
He divided his forces againstthem by night and he and his
servants attacked them andpursued them as far as Hobah,
(18:18):
which is north of Damascus.
So he brought back all thegoods and also brought back his
brother, lot and his goods, aswell as the woman and all the
people.
So Abraham did not write aletter to Sodom, he went to war.
I think that there is, and I'mnot saying all war right.
What is war?
(18:38):
W-a-r.
Oh, we are right, we are right.
Right.
That's why we go to war.
We go to war because we areright and you feel the same
thing.
You feel that you're right andthat's why you're going to war
with us.
Possibly if it is a nation likeours, in that maybe it's
democracy rules, but I don'tthink that all war is a good
(18:58):
idea.
And how do you pick that?
If you are in the military, youdon't get to have a say in that
you are going to war if you arein the military, right?
So Romans 13, 4, I'll be thefirst one to quote it Thanks,
mark, for he is God's servantfor your good, but if you do
wrong, be afraid, for he doesnot bear the sword in vain.
(19:26):
The sword of God by ourgovernment is designed to bring
peace.
That is the point and thepurpose, I think, for war.
Right that we're going to warfor peace.
And if you don't go to waroftentimes, then you will not
have peace.
(19:46):
That war is the only answer ina world that is hell-bent on
bringing destruction.
That's why we go to war, right?
So Trump, who's currently inoffice?
He cannot say that we are goingto war.
(20:06):
He can't say that withoutCongress, unless he's bringing a
defense of protection.
It's the only reason Al Mohlercame out with something really
good on the briefing.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
It was brilliant.
I listened to it.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
I highly recommend the briefing by Al Mohler Jr and
his definition.
Al Mohler Jr, there's a time tolove, a time to hate, a time
for war and a time for peace, asyou guys are just slicing these
off of your notes there.
Thank you, mark.
(20:41):
Maybe one more.
Blessed be the Lord, my rock,who trains my hands for war and
my fingers for battle, right?
So, david, he didn't just liftholy hands, he lifted hands that
had a sword inside of them.
Unless we think of, forgetabout, was it Nehemiah who was
at building the wall and he hada sword in one hand and what is
(21:03):
it called?
A trowel?
A trowel in the other, as he'sbuilding the wall.
There is a place I'm just notexcited about all the war that's
taken place, and I remember,before my dad became a Christian
, I asked him Dad, are you goingto heaven when you die?
And he said no, I've killed toomany people in war.
(21:25):
Because he went to Vietnamtwice and that was his reason
why he thought he did not gainthat access into heaven.
And then, like the apostle Paulwe'll get into that a little
bit later with Stephen, therewas that epiphany, there was the
opening of the eyes, theunveiling took place and
realized that God saves the mostwretched of sinners.
(21:50):
He's able to do it to thegutter most.
He still does it today.
Finally, francis Schaeffer tofail to stand against tyranny is
to fail to love your neighbor,and if we love your neighbor,
we're going to fight for ourneighbor.
So we have war that iscommissioned and approved and
designed by our government, butthere's also war inside of our
(22:11):
communities to protect ourfamily and to protect our fellow
neighbor.
That is a war that takes place.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
That's good, mark, yeah, and I would say I'd love
to hear you, oscar, on this.
But I would say that there isthat we are right aspect of war.
Then I think there is the weare righteous aspect of war,
which is like there is arighteous cause in the defense
of the innocent, in the defenseof a nation that's being
(22:39):
unjustly attacked.
And then I think there is thewe are ruthless aspect of war,
where there are those that arejust wicked, ruthless people
that don't care about people.
They just want to conquer, theywant to rule, they want power,
and so I think it's important toexplore that.
I would say, in terms of what weknow from the tone and tenor of
(23:01):
the Old Testament, that ifwe're speaking principally, war
is not something that is bydefinition unrighteous.
God called for righteous warsfor different reasons.
In fact, he used the childrenof Israel as an instrument
through which he passed judgmenton other nations.
And God would tell theIsraelites clearly it's not
because of your righteousness,it's not because of your
(23:23):
greatness, but it's because ofthe wickedness of these nations
that I'm using you to dispossessthem, and so forth.
And I'm sure Oscar has a lot tosay on this, but I think a lot
of times there could be theconfusion of a lot of the things
that Jesus touched on in termsof loving our enemies, in terms
of turning the other cheek andso forth.
That I think contextually givea different perspective on that.
(23:46):
It's not that you can't thwartunrighteousness, but it's your
interrelational as an individualdisciple of Christ.
How do you interact with othersin a civil way in that regard
and for the testimony of thegospel?
But I think there is adistinction to be made between
the civil and the governmentalelements of how you defend a
(24:08):
nation, and can Christianspartake in that?
So let's get into that, oscar.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
I think it's clear that EZ is awarmonger.
I actually resonate quite a bitas I hear you, ray, and you,
mark, talk about this.
I sense a tension that's there.
You mentioned image bearers andI resonate with that tension of
looking at the scriptures andlooking at culture and reality.
(24:35):
And again, you know, we kind ofturned to the early church in
the last episode and I'm goingto do it again in this one,
because I think in this subjectit's really valuable for us to
see how our theology of war haschanged over time, if it's
influenced by, you know, if youcan look at the theory of war
and the way that the church didfor the first 300 years, or has
(24:58):
it changed?
Did Rome change its perspective?
Did America change itsperspective?
And so what you see in thatearly church is a similar
tension that Ray was mentioning,which is that the early church,
as I said before, leanedheavily toward a pacifism type
view of the world, notpacifistic in the sense that we
would understand pacifism.
(25:18):
Essentially, they saw thatviolence was incompatible with
following Jesus.
But they weren't totallypacifistic, because we have a
lot of examples of, whileChristians did not participate
in war, they did pray for apositive outcome in war.
They were non-combatantparticipants.
(25:41):
And so Origen, as a primeexample, says we no longer take
up the sword against nation, nordo we learn war anymore.
We have become children ofpeace, for the sake of Jesus.
Another historian I'm sorry, achurch father in the first 300
years says it is always noticeit is always unlawful to put to
death a man whom God willed tobe a sacred animal.
(26:03):
Another example is thatsoldiers and officials in the
first 300 years would be.
Another example is thatsoldiers and officials in the
first 300 years would beexcommunicated or barred from
baptism if they became a soldier.
Tertullian critiques militaryservice.
He basically says like in orderto be a part of the military,
you need to swear an oath tomilitary leaders, and his quote
(26:29):
says one soul cannot serve bothGod and Caesar.
And so there is this it'simportant to just recognize in
the first 300 years there isthis instinct against bloodshed.
But it's not historicallyaccurate to say the church was
totally against war becauseagain, you also have examples of
people in the early churchpraying for positive outcomes
and participating innon-combatant ways.
Again, you also have examplesof people in the early church
praying for positive outcomesand participating in
(26:52):
non-combatant ways.
Then you fast forward a littlebit and one of the things that
we've talked about before we'vethrown around this phrase just
war.
That is a phrase borrowed fromAugustine.
See how kind I am to my enemy.
You're very nice.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
What a grace.
You need to do that, for me tointerject.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
So something different happens post-Nicene
shift, remember.
Christianity becomes a statereligion in 380 through the
edict of Thessalonica, and nowthe church is grappling with the
ability to have power and whatit looks like to preserve
(27:38):
Christian virtue and enterAugustine's theory of just war.
It's important to contextualize, because I actually asked AI
about Augustine's theory of justwar and it gave a very skewed
perspective, which is an exampleon how we can't always rely on
AI.
So it's important to have abackground.
(27:58):
First, the first time Augustinetalks about just war, he
doesn't talk about it in City ofGod.
There's actually quite a bit ofletters that he's exchanging
with people as they're askinghim for help, and one of the
first times the fascinatingstory it was the church of
Corinth.
There was slave trade happeningand Corinth is a port city and
(28:21):
so these slavers were bringingin slaves, many of them children
and women.
Why children?
Because this is terrible, butchildren had more of a lifespan,
so they were worth more asslaves.
So these Christians arewitnessing these slave traders
come through Corinth and they'resending letters to Augustine
like what should we do?
And one day they decide in anon-combative way in the middle
(28:45):
of the night to go in there andunlock the cages and steal these
slaves away from the slavetraders.
And now they're hiding them intheir homes and in their
churches, trying to get them togo back to their land.
And they're writing Augustinelike hey, the city's coming down
hard on us.
Did we do the right thing?
People are arguing whether wedid the right thing or not, and
(29:08):
he says that your war againstthe slave traders is just Now.
It's important to recognizethat they never raised a sword,
they never fought anybody.
They simply went in there andfreed the slaves from the slave
traders.
Fast forward a little bit.
Rome falls to the Goths, andnow you've got this
(29:30):
discombobulated Rome and youhave people that own land.
And these Goths are coming inand they're basically talking
through like what should we dohere?
And in City of God?
Augustine makes it very clearyou thought Rome was God's
country, and it wasn't.
It was Babylon.
Side note that's important forus to consider as Americans.
He then says to them, though itis valuable for you to consider
(29:56):
defending Christian virtue ifit means being attacked by the
Goths.
And so Henry Chadwick summarizesAugustine's just war theory,
and a lot of people will sayAugustine laid out these three
or four or five criteria.
It actually wasn't Augustine's,just war theory and a lot of
people will say Augustine's laidout these three or four or five
criteria.
It actually wasn't Augustine,it was Henry Chadwick that
summarizes Augustine.
He says basically, just warmeans self-defense or recovery
(30:20):
of stolen property.
Its aim is always peace, notconquest or revenge.
It's always proportional inforce to revenge.
It's always proportional inforce.
It has a respect for humanityand avoids humiliation.
And we should always preservethe idea of prisoners of war.
(30:42):
In other words, we need toprotect their rights even when
they are our enemies.
So to summarize the idea ofgust war permits war but never
glorifies it.
It recognize it as always beingtragic and it limits its reason
to go to war.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
I love that, oscar.
I think you know that.
That really sums up what I,what I think is the the
preferred virtuous perspectiveon war, especially not glorying
in it, not making it out to bethis wonderful thing, like we're
(31:18):
going to just get in there.
We are the United States ofAmerica and I think sometimes
there's this lack of integration.
One of the greatest things Ilearned when I was in Bible
college was that principle ofintegration versus
compartmentalization, where wesort of segregate our faith to
certain aspects of our lives,versus integrating our faith
into everything.
(31:38):
Our faith informs everything.
There's no like, oh well,that's different.
So now I'm an American soldier,so I'm going to talk like this
and act like that, god forbid.
But I think it's important toofor us to, as Christians,
whatever the early church mayhave done, to do what the
Reformers taught us to do, andthat's go back to Scripture.
Even with the Reformers,sometimes people will say, well,
(32:01):
martin Luther, you know he wasanti-Semitic, whatever, well, he
was wrong.
It doesn't mean, you know we'renot.
You know those that are sayinglock, stock and barrel.
Everything that the Reformersheld to was right.
So I think that's why we needto be biblical and say, well,
let's explore, let's examine.
So, mark, I want to throwsomething to you in this vein.
If some man broke into yourhouse and began to attack your
(32:24):
wife, would you stop them?
Speaker 3 (32:29):
I would do all that I can to stop them, of course,
and I would use whatever meansthat I can, and it would make
sense to me because theirintention, as they went across
that barrier, is to do harm.
Nothing else would make senseto me.
And though I would leave roomin my mind right now that he
(32:51):
could have ulterior motives notto hurt, not to harm, I don't
know what those would be, butthat's not how you go about
doing it.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
No.
So if someone came in and triedto attack your wife and your
children, would you defend them?
Speaker 3 (33:04):
I would shoot them with my 12-gauge, I would use
buckshot and I would take themout.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Okay, Ray, if someone was attacking your next-door
neighbor and was attempting tohurt them and murder them and
you had the ability to stop them, would you do that, or would
you just turn a blind eye?
Speaker 5 (33:21):
I'd use my starter pistol.
Starter pistol, I'd send.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Lucy over there.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
But principally, right, yes, definitely, yeah,
definitely.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
And in my perspective that's what just war is, and I
would tie it to Romans 13, likeyou already did.
Mark that the governingauthorities do not bear the
sword in vain.
Now it's in an organized,governmental fashion where the
cause of war, as we expand, thatis for the sake of defending
(33:53):
those that are within yourborders, within your boundaries.
Speaker 5 (33:56):
It's easy to forget that war has radically changed
in recent years.
We don't take up the sword andspill the blood of our enemy.
We push a button and send amissile and blow them to pieces
without seeing his blood.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Yeah, exactly so, and this is a good point to discuss
.
So, like right now, obviously,in recent days or weeks or
months, whenever this is airingobviously the United States of
America went and bombed Iran andthe perception was that they
have nuclear bombs or were, I'msorry, were attempting to enrich
(34:30):
uranium to create nuclear bombs, and that they are a nation
that has sworn death to America.
It's not just a slogan, butit's in their charter, it's like
, it's a part of, like, theirtheology.
Speaker 5 (34:45):
And they've killed over a thousand Americans.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yeah.
So maybe we differ on this.
I don't know.
What do you guys think, oscar?
What do you think about that?
Do you think that?
Let's say the intel?
And when we talked about itwith the death penalty, we said,
hey, you've got to be careful.
Yeah, some of us may say thedeath penalty is fine, but you
can't just do it without total,absolute proof.
(35:07):
There has to be care.
But you can't just do itwithout total, absolute proof.
There has to be care.
So, oscar, let's say that therewas verifiable evidence that,
as much as possible frommultiple independent sources
that verified that they weren'ttrying to enrich uranium,
they've already spoken theirintents to want to destroy the
United States.
Do you think that what we didwas just?
Speaker 1 (35:28):
I'm going to give you an answer you're not going to
like, which is I don't know,because I I like that answer.
Speaker 5 (35:34):
I like that answer.
Do you like that answer?
Speaker 3 (35:36):
I am.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
I sense this desire in me to try to respond to
current events, but I also sensesort of the Dunning-Kruger
effect taking in me, likegeopolitical conversation is so
complicated.
I want to say it was just.
But I also want to humbly lookback and recognize preemptive
(36:01):
strikes is a newer version ofjust war.
Augustine wouldn't have agreedto it.
I also look back in history andthink of the second gulf war in
which we were told that therewere weapons of mass destruction
and now universally, both sidesof the aisle are like whoops,
it wasn't, um.
I also want to recognize that wetalk about iran as evil, but
(36:22):
like the story is complicated,what was it?
1988 we shot down an airlinerwith 280 something.
And can you imagine if anairplane left Los Angeles for
Peru?
And it turns out Iran had amilitary boat off the shore of
Mexico and shot down an airlinerwith 280 people that were just
(36:45):
trying to go on vacation?
We did that to them.
So I just I think, yes, what wedid was just in this current
situation with Trump aspresident, but I also just know
geopolitical stuff is reallycomplicated and I don't want to
Dunning-Kruger myself into it?
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Yeah, I'd like to explore that.
I'm not familiar with thatinstance.
I know Iran had hijacked ourplanes.
I know they killed 200 andsomething soldiers in Beirut, my
country.
Speaker 5 (37:14):
Can't we say, instead of saying we shot down that
plane, they did it, I don't knowanything about it?
If I'd been asked, I would havesaid no.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yeah, I don't know anything about that.
But, oscar, what you're saying,though, is true in that we need
to be careful, because I oftenthink about wmds right, the
whole weapons of massdestruction, and saran was and
has them but at the same time, Ithink as well that we need to
be careful, because then wewould say, oh well, then any
kind of evidence we can'tbecause of that versus like,
(37:41):
look, there may be differentsources of intel, there may be
ways that they, you know, uh,came to that conclusion I want
to say a side note.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
I think it's really important.
Like, the Atlantic is prettyanti-Trump and they released an
article a couple of days agojustifying Trump's actions, and
so I just want to say, like thisis just a, it's just a.
It's interesting because rightnow there's quite a bit of
people that would agree.
Even people who universallydisagree with Trump are backing
him.
And then there are people whohave universally agreed with
(38:10):
Trump who are not backing him,which is very interesting.
So it's just very complicated.
My expertise is not ingeopolitical matters which is
why I want to say I don't know.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
I think, but I don't know.
Yeah, mark, what do you think?
Speaker 3 (38:24):
When it comes to war in general.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
This particular instance with Trump.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
What do we have?
We only have what we've beentold.
We always got to remember thatright that if your only source
of news is from Fox, you have aproblem.
If your only source of news isfrom CNN, you have a problem,
because who is really behind thenews in which we get right?
(38:50):
So we really got to be carefulin the midst of this right.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah, on that point, Mark, if I can real quick.
And just yesterday I showedsomeone this because I took a
screenshot of CNN's headline onthe website.
I took one of Fox's.
One said military success inthe bombing of Iran's you know,
Fordd military nuclear base.
And then one said did not fullydestroy ford military.
(39:15):
They were like the exactopposites.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
So like you're saying we're at the mercy, yeah, and I
do believe that there are someextreme leftists, yeah, who
would find fault in trump iftrump I saw this Fox News
yesterday if Trump were toeradicate cancer, some people in
the far left would get upset atTrump for doing away with
oncologists.
Speaker 5 (39:40):
You have eliminated people in the workforce?
Speaker 3 (39:42):
right, but here's the thing, right, this isn't just
leftists and CNN, this is onboth sides.
Right that Democrats can do nogood in the eyes of some
Republicans.
Right that it's only demonized,no matter what route you go, no
matter what you take.
So, to answer your questiondirectly, I would say, if the
(40:03):
information that I received,which is to eliminate the
ability of Iran to create thesenuclear missiles, whatever it
may be, that seems like a reallygood thing, right, because I
really do believe that theirgovernment wants to destroy
America at all costs, that weare the infidel, right?
(40:27):
I don't think there's any wayaround that.
A couple quotes, a couplethoughts.
Right, francis Schaeffer.
He said, to fail to standagainst tyranny is to fail to
love your neighbor.
Spurgeon, a time will come whenpeace means cowardice and war
means righteousness.
(40:47):
I'm not needing to make thesedecisions, though, right?
So, because I'm not able tomake these decisions, all I know
is these little 30-secondsnippet Instagram newsreels,
which is, by and large, wherepeople get their news.
I was surprised to see Tuckerinterview Ted Cruz concerning
(41:09):
this.
I don't know if you saw that,but there was fireworks amongst
the two and I thought.
I thought you were on the sameside.
Am I that far removed now towhat is happening?
So, bottom line for me, I thinkthat there are times when war
is justifiable.
Right, and you had asked me thequestion if somebody breaks
(41:31):
into my house, let me quote averse Exodus 22,.
If a thief is found breaking inand is struck so that he dies,
there shall be no blood guiltfor him.
Right, ray saying, if he had areal gun, he would start at the
foot and work his way up.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Right, I don't Did you know that he has to aim up
at the foot.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
Right, sometimes fighting for peace means
fighting period.
That's what Mel Gibson said,right?
Listen, we just got to becareful in the midst of this.
This is why it is so importantto pray for our governmental
leaders that God puts people inplace and for you not to vote,
whoever you are.
It is a terrible act let metake it a step further of
(42:13):
treason towards your governmentthat we have the ability to put
people in place.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
That is how God works supernaturally, in a very
natural way, ray we're talkingabout current war, right Israel
and Iran, and then the UnitedStates getting involved.
But you're somewhat, in myopinion, a World War II buff.
I know that you've reallyexplored a lot of World War II.
Speaker 5 (42:37):
Wrote a book.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Your dad fought in it .
You wrote a book on it.
One of my favorite memorials inDC is a World War II memorial
where you have these stars thatare affixed to the wall and each
one of them represents 10,000,there's 400 stars, 10,000 lives
that were given in World War II,and at the bottom it says here
we mark the price of freedom.
I mean, sometimes it's easy forus to walk around and say, oh,
(43:01):
you know, forget war, this andthat, like those that are like
hardcore pacifists and they'reliving in the benefits of those
that went to war to defend us.
So what do you think ofsomething like World War II?
Should the United States havegotten involved?
Speaker 5 (43:13):
I think the United States should have gotten
involved sooner than what theydid.
They were isolationists, butthey were provoked to be
isolationists by people who havebeen placed by the enemy within
America.
Fifth columnists, I think theywere called, where they would
cause strikes and all sorts ofthings to try and bring the
nation down or create confusion.
Yeah, I just can't help butthink 50 million people like us
(43:39):
four guys died in that war.
Why?
Because some little twit thatlooked like Charlie Chaplin
decided he wanted to rule theworld just because of that, it's
just absolutely crazy.
This whole world's a tinderbox.
I am a fan of Fox, but Ideliberately go across to CNN
(44:01):
regularly so I get a balance,because I know Fox know their
customs Customers, they knowtheir base and their whole thing
is pump Trump, and we'll get agood bottom line, and CNN say
dump Trump, we'll get a goodbottom line.
And so that's why Mark is soright about just being careful
what you listen to, because youcan be shaped by what you listen
to.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Moving away from geopolitical matters for just a
bit and back on just war as atheory in general.
One of the guys who makes, Ithink, one of the strongest
points for just war is a hero ofmine who I quote often, which
is CS Lewis.
He has a discussion on Luke3.14 as a reminder.
(44:44):
Jesus just got done calling thePharisees a brood of vipers.
He's in the middle of you know,people are getting baptized and
people are asking him whatshould I do?
A tax collector comes to himwhat should I do?
And he gives him advice.
And then a centurion that'ssomeone enlisted in the army
comes to him and says what?
Speaker 5 (45:02):
should I do?
Speaker 1 (45:04):
This is Jesus, luke 3 .
He says so the centurion islike I just got baptized, what
should I do with my life?
And he says be content withyour wages.
And CS Lewis points out thatJesus never told the centurion
to quit the army.
He simply said be content withyour wages.
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
That's good, that's really good, yeah, and I found
this online.
I think it was a really goodsummation, like it's when war
may be justified, when war isunjustified.
So when war may be justified,defensive war, protecting
citizens from aggression,justice for the oppressed.
When diplomacy fails, resistingevil, preventing genocide or
tyranny and upholding order,maintaining a lawful society.
(45:45):
And then, when war isunjustified, greed, conquest,
revenge, religious coercion, adisregard for civilians or
unjust, targeting nationalismelevated above God's word,
that's huge.
And disobedience to God's morallaw in battle.
I think it's a good kind ofsummation to look at.
And then, in terms of the justwar doctrine by Augustine and
(46:09):
then Aquinas, augustine, so justcause, which is to stop real
evil, genocide, invasion, properauthority declared by a
legitimate government, rightintention, goal must be peace,
not conquest.
Last resort, all options mustbe be exhausted.
I think that's an important one.
Has diplomacy been given a shot, you know?
Uh, proportionality, force mustbe measured, not excessive.
Speaker 5 (46:33):
and then discrimination civilians and
non-combatants must be protectedso when we see augustine in
heaven, who uh you?
Speaker 3 (46:41):
heard augustine.
Speaker 5 (46:42):
You heard him hang on a minute, let me finish, let it
be the last word, when he sayshow he pronounced his name
between the two of you, so wehave peace in heaven augustine
will set us straight, for sure.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
Yeah um, I I am so refreshed by the heart from you
guys.
Truly, like I, was expecting usto come to this from a
different perspective and tohear the tension and the lament
behind the reality that war isan unfortunate consequence to
the fall.
It's a part of the life that welive in and waiting for the
(47:14):
kingdom to come that is bothhere and not yet.
And to those who are listening,I want to offer just a
connection to the gospel.
Why should we, as Christians,be hesitant to agree with war
man?
We just talked about Iran andhow much they hate America.
Death to America.
The heart of every single manwages war on God in the same way
(47:39):
that Iran wages war on us.
In our heart of hearts we'resaying death to God, death to
God.
We are that World War IIwarmonger that wants control of
the world away from God.
And God does not drop a bomb onus.
He could, but instead he offerspeace.
He bears the violence of theworld.
(48:01):
He doesn't return it.
The gospel calls us to bepeacemakers because God first
made peace with us.
So why, when we hear Iransaying death to America, should
we still lament the unfortunatereality that we may have to go
to war with them, because weknow that we said death to God
and he offered peace.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
That's so good, oscar , amen.
And you think of what Scripturesays in terms of and James
talks about why there's warsbetween you, and he talks about
that desire, that fleshly desire, really and, mark, that's a
(48:45):
reality today between believersWars and fights among you.
Why are there wars and fightsamong you?
It's that desire that drawtowards self-centeredness.
And right now and this is agood segue we're talking about
war in the geopolitical sense,but there are wars going on in
(49:06):
churches today.
There are wars between churches, there are wars within a given
local church, between itsmembers, and I'd love you to
speak to that.
What's the solution?
How do we get?
Speaker 3 (49:17):
past that Humility, christ.
Humility is missing from anysort of argumentation anymore.
Remember that's when we watch adebate.
We want to see our side sweepthe floor with your side.
I'm reminded of what you'resaying.
I'm reminded of the Christmastruce of 1914, world War I.
(49:38):
I remember being in Oklahomaand seeing at the museum where
it was called the Battle in theTrenches that's where World War
I was right.
And you had this moment whereon Christmas Eve and Christmas
Day, where you had the Brits andthe Germans coming out and
there was a truce for those twodays there's a video on that and
(49:59):
they came out and theyexchanged gifts with one another
, they sang hymns with oneanother, they played soccer.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Wait, this is real history.
Yeah, absolutely, I didn't knowabout that.
Speaker 5 (50:09):
It's incredible.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
It's on.
Speaker 4 (50:10):
YouTube.
Did I see it in a moviesomewhere?
It's on.
Speaker 5 (50:11):
YouTube yeah, wow.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
These guys were shooting at each other.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
You have two 18-year-olds who are trying to
kill each other, some not evenreally understanding all that is
happening, right, and withoutthe access to the internet, to
television, the radio andeverything else that's happening
.
You just have your marchingorders.
Imagine this you have twoChristians that are trying to
kill each other and calling fora truce in order to recognize
(50:41):
that God is in this place, thatwe are fellow image bearers,
right?
I'm getting emotional thinkingabout this, trying to destroy
you in your future lineage.
I want to kill you, and it'slike we're holding up a white
flag.
For just a moment, if thechurch did this for just a
(51:02):
moment.
Yeah, but you're not Lutheran,you're not Episcopalian, you
don't attend Calvary Chapel.
You're Baptist, but what sortof Baptist Are you?
Reformed Baptist?
Yeah, but which confession?
Are you Right To wave the whiteflag and to recognize that God
is bigger than what is going on?
Have you ever had an argumentwith your wife and you're like,
(51:24):
you're 30 minutes in.
You're thinking to yourselfwhat are we even arguing about
anymore?
We just want to be right andoftentimes and this is where
easy I think that you'reabsolutely amazing in this area
when it comes to, I just want tobe heard.
I just want to make sure youunderstand the angle from which
I'm coming from and that I'mokay with whatever decision you
(51:46):
want to make, but you understandthat I'm coming from this angle
, this angle and this angle, andthis is my understanding, my
understanding, my understanding.
You get that right and you go.
I get that Great.
Hey, god has placed you incharge whatever you want to do.
If we did that by and large withthe church, the bickerings they
(52:06):
would cease.
And we see in 1 Corinthians,chapter 11, with Paul.
So Paul with that daily concernof the church, the things that
would come upon him, the weightthat was upon his shoulders and
the decisions that he had tomake, and he said the least of
all, that I would not expect thewar that came from within the
church that was upon him.
So there is a greater war thatis taking place and we have to
(52:28):
remember that we do not fightagainst flesh and blood, but
against principalities andpowers, against demonic forces
that want to take us down.
If we leave the house realizingthat we are in a spiritual
battle, when we get cut off fromthat person, if you live in
California, you're going to getcut off.
I got cut off.
(52:49):
Today You're not raising a fist, but you're raising holy hands
to pray for that person.
You don't know what they'regoing through and I remember
reading earlier today about awoman who lost her husband and
she went into the public and shehad to buy groceries and she
thought to herself nobody has aclue what I'm going through.
(53:12):
I still have to buy food for mykids and the sales clerk looks
at me and says, hi, having agreat day.
You don't know what somebody'sgoing through.
Slow to speak, quick to listen,slow to wrath and anger.
Speaker 2 (53:29):
So good, mark.
It reminds me of what Paul saysin Corinthians, where he's
talking about believers, brother, going to court with brother,
and that before unbelievers.
Is that not to your shame?
He says why not rather be wrong, rather be?
Speaker 3 (53:42):
wrong.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
Why not rather be defrauded, but you wrong and
defraud and it's like againstyour brother, like Ray.
There is that place where Icall it the itch right?
Why do we make that insult?
That's brewing in our mindsthat we know we shouldn't.
It's because it's an itch andwe just we got to scratch it
(54:04):
rather than learning to holdback.
You know, ray, is it an issueof self-control?
Is it.
Speaker 5 (54:11):
Yeah, it's an issue of not having the wisdom that's
from above.
You know, scripture talks aboutthe wisdom that's below King
James, devilish, that's in theheart of Demonic right.
Yeah, it's demonic, it's in theheart of man and that's what
we've got to recognize in all ofus, and we strive to have the
wisdom from above which ispeaceable, open to reason,
willing to yield.
(54:31):
Yeah, willing to yield, justgive up and give it to God.
I look at some of the things inthe Old Testament, some of the
wars, and I can't justify them.
They're pretty bloodthirsty,hacking someone to death in war
with a sword.
If I was there I'd probablyjust go for a long walk or
something.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
Elijah hacking.
Agag the pieces.
Speaker 5 (54:53):
That's what I was thinking of and that's because
that's probably what he saidwhen it happened, agag.
Anyway, atheists will oftenpoint to God as being a
warmonger in the Old Testamentand say God told Joshua to kill
all the Canaanites.
And there's a good comeback toatheists when they say that you
just say to them did thisactually happen?
And they say yes.
(55:15):
So you're saying the Bible'sright and they say no, it didn't
happen.
So what are you worried aboutthen?
Just like getting upset becauseCinderella's coach turned into
a pumpkin at midnight it's?
If it didn't happen, don't getupset, that happened, it did.
Speaker 2 (55:28):
Oh yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (55:29):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (55:30):
Being the pumpkin yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:32):
That's a documentary.
Yeah, that's so good, ray, it'sman.
Rachel and I were talking aboutthis the other day.
We were going on one of ourglorious four-mile walks, which
we do regularly.
Speaker 5 (55:47):
It's pride.
Speaker 2 (55:49):
Humility, humility.
And I said to her, if you thinkabout it, everything,
everything in life that issinful ultimately, or righteous,
spiritual disciplines, whatever, ultimately comes back to
self-control.
Everything I mean I'm going toget angry with you, upset with
(56:11):
you or not Self-control.
I'm going to pray daily.
Self-control or lack thereof.
Speaker 5 (56:17):
David Solomon, all those self-control.
Speaker 2 (56:20):
Right.
I mean, don't you guys thinkthat it all comes back to
self-control, which good newsfor the Christian is our
birthright?
It's part of the fruit of theSpirit.
We have access to it, and whenwe don't access it, we have no
excuse.
No temptations come upon us,except what's common to man.
God is faithful, 1 Corinthians10, 13.
He'll provide the way of escapeso that we can stand up under
(56:42):
it or endure it.
And so, as I often say, it'snot that we can't, it's that we
won't.
And so we need to get back tothat place of saying man, I need
to access what I have.
And I think sometimes it's thatforgetfulness which is still
our fault, because we're nottraining ourselves to remain
mindful of what we need toremember.
So it's again like the guy whohas an eighth-degree black belt
(57:06):
and has given martial art butgets amnesia, forgets, finds
himself in an alleyway with somelittle pipsqueak trying to
threaten him, starts knocking atthe knees.
Speaker 4 (57:16):
Hey, I'll get you.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
Knocking at the knees and he takes off running.
It's not that he doesn't havethe power, it's that he's lost
that remembrance or thatmindfulness that he has it.
So we need to remember we havethe power that raised Jesus from
the dead dwelling in us and man.
We need to make peace with ourbrethren.
We need to go the extra mile.
(57:39):
We need to be at peace with allmen, as far as it depends on us
.
Speaker 5 (57:44):
So if you go the extra mile, will that be a
five-mile walk?
Speaker 2 (57:46):
Five-mile walk with Rachel.
Speaker 4 (57:48):
Okay, do it.
Speaker 2 (57:52):
But we need to remember that, we need to keep
that in mind and I hope, inlight of what we talked about in
terms of our outlook andperspective on war, that we
check our hearts.
Do we glory in it?
Do we find glee and like, ohyeah, it's great Versus, like
thinking about what that meansHuman lives being destroyed,
(58:14):
oftentimes for foolish reasons?
Speaker 5 (58:16):
In Psalms God condemns those who delight in
war.
Speaker 2 (58:20):
Yeah, amen.
Speaker 5 (58:22):
And do you realize your four-minute walk could be
overcooked if you both went onelectric bikes for a minute walk
what you guys?
Speaker 1 (58:27):
walk.
What you guys don't know isthat rachel does the walking and
she pushes easy in one of thoselittle doggy strollers as I
hold the dog listening to whitenoise.
Speaker 2 (58:37):
Yeah yeah, anyhow, well, guys, I, I, man, what a
great discussion.
Yeah and uh, I just I can'temphasize enough how much I
respect you guys.
Um, and you know we we joke alot and stuff, but we love each
other, we respect each other.
The lord's given us a sweetcamaraderie and partnership in
the gospel, like we do thispodcast, but behind the scenes
(58:59):
we're we're preaching gospeltogether and we are ministering
to people together and we'retraveling the world together,
and what a joy that God hasgiven us this.
And I think we talked aboutthis recently.
One of the greatest joys wehave about the podcast is the
example it gives other believersin terms of the fellowship we
(59:20):
can have, because, friends, whatwe're doing here is something
you can replicate with otherbrothers, that's all.
We're brothers.
We're sitting around a table,yeah, we're talking to these
microphones, but we're like weget there's times I forget we're
doing a podcast, we're lost inthe moment because we're
fellowshipping.
We're edifying each other,encouraging each other,
sharpening each other.
Speaker 4 (59:45):
And I hope you guys All right.
Friends, don't forget to takeyour commandments coins the
treasure chests all at LivingWaters.
Speaker 2 (59:53):
Here the Living Waters mug, the Adventist Study
Bible, living Waters TV.
And don't forget the podcastYouTube channel all at
livingwaterscom.
And don't forget podcasts atlivingwaterscom where you can
give us your comments, yourthoughts, your ideas and hey
guys, continue to send commentsin Also on the platforms you
listen to and to like and toshare.
Speaker 4 (01:00:11):
Thank, you for joining us, friends.
We'll see you here next time onthe Living Waters.
Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
Podcast where we have no idea what we're doing what
EZ is doing.
Yeah, I don't know.
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