Ep. 346 - Examining the “Deconstruction” Movement

Deconstruction is the process of dismantling previously held beliefs which begins with the self as the final authority. Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar warn that this posture can lead to a rejection of truth and, ultimately, to turning away from God. Many begin deconstructing in response to frustrations with the modern evangelical church, but in doing so, they sometimes discard core doctrines of the faith. The guys emphasize that Christianity doesn’t promise happiness, but righteousness. When the gospel is altered to appeal to comfort or culture, it creates false converts who have a false sense of assurance. The path is narrow; following Christ is not easy. 

While it is good for believers to examine their beliefs, that examination must be built on the foundation of Scripture. Deconstruction often strays from this by starting with self rather than God. The guys make a distinction between deconstruction and honest doubt—doubt that humbly seeks truth in God’s Word. Much of today’s church culture has endorsed blind faith or discouraged critical thinking. As a result, people don’t walk away because they think too much—they walk away because they haven’t thought enough, or they’ve thought apart from Scripture.

The guys note that many who deconstruct focus on isolated issues and fail to see the bigger picture. Faith isn't about having all the answers; sometimes it’s simply trusting that God does. Referencing 1 John 2:19, the guys remind listeners that leaving the faith doesn’t bring freedom. Even John the Baptist, who baptized Jesus, still questioned near the end of his life. The hope isn’t in the strength of our faith but in the strength of Christ—the object of our faith.

Doubt is often tied to unmet expectations. As the guys point out, fulfillment is found in Christ alone. We don’t resolve our doubts through deconstruction; we bring them to Jesus. Our hearts choose what to believe and our minds follow. Seeing the beauty of Christ realigns our thoughts. Faith is not abstract; it is grounded in the truth of the gospel and the Word of God. Scripture wasn’t given just for information—it was given to transform us. The guys discuss the role of modern culture, particularly social media, in shaping beliefs. 

The church has a discipleship problem; people attend on Sunday but are immersed in worldly rhythms by Monday. To the deconstructionist, the guys ask: what are your daily habits? Be honest about how you’re being shaped. Ask your questions, but ask them in the presence of God, with Scripture open. God is real. He is the prime reality. Run to Him—not away.

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Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Like so often, what happens is we're walking around
in our Christian faith and thismoment of doubt comes up.
We're like what about my friendwho just died of cancer?
You know what?
I'm not even going to thinkabout that right now.
I'm just going to put thatquestion away and come back to
it later.
Huh, I wonder what is up withthe authority of Scripture.
You know what.
I'm going to put that one away.
Huh, I wonder what is up withthe relationship between slavery

(00:21):
and the Bible.
You know what?
I'm going to put that one awayand think about that one later.
And what ends up happening isthat we walk away from the faith
, not because we think too much,but because we think too little
about it.
So many of us have unansweredquestions about the faith that
we end up abandoning the faithto go find something new.

(00:42):
But again you're walking away.
Away not because you thoughttoo much, but because you were
thinking too little about thefaith.
Oh yeah, amen.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
You might call it glee, perhaps euphoric bliss.
I like to simply call itdeluded self-deception, frowns.
You're talking about yourmemoir, mark and Oscar and Eddie
and Jen and Brad and.
Dave were all late to a 10o'clock meeting we had scheduled

(01:21):
yesterday.
Should we?

Speaker 1 (01:23):
play the tape.
I've seen the tape.

Speaker 3 (01:24):
You sent the tape to me.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
And I walk into the room where they weren't supposed
to be, in place of the roomwhere they should have been, and
there was Oscar Navarro, withmaniacal delight.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
That's true.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
With his phone in his hand, ready to document a false
accusation.
Ray's seen the tape and todocument a false accusation.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
Ray's seen the tape and he's a non-biased party.

Speaker 4 (01:48):
What are you?

Speaker 2 (01:48):
talking about.
I have tape too.
I can show the tape of ourcameras showing me at the place.
We should have been at theright time.

Speaker 4 (01:55):
I have the sheet saying where we're supposed to
meet.
Should I pull that out we?

Speaker 2 (01:58):
don't talk about that .
Okay, that's inadmissible,inadmissible evidence.
It really was.
It seriously was a real weirdmoment.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
If you're new to the podcast listener, you need to
know that Easy is obsessed withbeing on time, which is ironic
because he's usually the onethat's late.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Well, let's put it this way Easy is righteous.
That's a better way to put ithe's crazy.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
You refuse to die because you're scared.
People will say the late,exactly, that's a better way to
put it.
This is crazy you refuse to diebecause you're scared people
will say the late.

Speaker 4 (02:26):
Exactly that's right.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
Location studio Weird , I can't see that.
I don't know if that's true ornot.
I can show you?

Speaker 4 (02:35):
No, I can't see it.
You have it in your outlet.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
Open your eyes, I will not Because I'm the boss,
though.
I decide where we meet, andthat's where I had decided at
that moment.
I'm sitting in the boardroom,of course, on time, waiting,
just waiting for repentance,Well, waiting to judge, waiting
to condemn, as everyone wouldwalk in late, and no one showed

(02:59):
up.
And then I hear voices down thehall what, oh?
And then Mark texts me Are youokay?
You're not.

Speaker 4 (03:08):
Are you okay?
It's not.
Are you coming?
It's because he's never late,are you okay?

Speaker 2 (03:11):
No, you've obviously died if you're late.
Oh, that was a funny moment,but I did feel Oscar.
I think this is the first timeOscar ever saw me late and he's
thinking wow.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
Not the first time, by any search.
No, I wasn't late.
You were definitely late.
It was all your fault.
The next time I'm late, I'mlike I thought the meeting was
on the 91 freeway.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
I thought it was at BJ's.
That would actually be fun Onthe 91 freeway.

Speaker 4 (03:35):
Can you?

Speaker 2 (03:35):
imagine someone just setting up a table right on the
side of the 91 freeway.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
Do you know those freeways shake?
Have you ever been on the sideof one?
Do you know those?

Speaker 2 (03:43):
freeway shake.
Have you ever been?

Speaker 3 (03:44):
on the side of one.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, they'refrightening.
I got a flat one, so I had tochange a tire on the side.
It was really scary.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
Ray, did you successfully change that tire?

Speaker 3 (03:51):
Yeah, yeah, I did, but it was one of those ones
that are really small wheelsthat I had to change it with.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
Oh, the spare yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
They call it A tiny.
Now, speaking of that, I've gotto share something with you,
mark.
You're a pain.
We're going to a hospital tovisit my pastor came.
Mark came, what are youlaughing at?
My pastor came, pastor BruceGarner Garner, thank you, mark,
who is a brilliant theologian.
We're in a elevator.
Ah, raymond, we're in anelevator, and as soon as I
stepped in the elevator with mypastor, mark and myself, there

(04:26):
were four people in the elevatorand I thought I should give
them tracks.
But the lady standing next tome had tattoos.
Now, oscar, I immediatelythought this lady's got tattoos.
She's very violent towardChristian things.
She obviously smokes cigarettes, cusses like a trooper, drinks
alcohol, she's got a boyfriendwho's a biker, who hates
Christians, and she's justwaiting for some fundamentalist

(04:48):
crazy to handle a gospel tractin the elevator.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
Non-judgmental Ray.

Speaker 3 (04:53):
Yes, and I thought that because there's three other
people within about two secondsNow.
Mark, who's traveled with mefor years, detected my body
language realized what I wasgoing through and he leans over
and he just says one wordchicken.
And so I immediately gavetracts to people.
They all took them, includingthe lady with tattoos.

(05:13):
And the lady with tattoos thisis 10 miles from where we live
said you gave one of these to mydaughter at Sarita's College.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
Wow, Was this before or after she beat you up?
No, no, she didn't beat me up.
Oh yeah, Was this before orafter she beat you up?
No, no, she didn't beat me up.
I was already up, you know someof them will whisper chicken to
someone in the elevator that'sgone through terror.
But here's the thing right.
You would think in a situationlike that like wow, mark's got
some like deep insight.
He's just so intuitive.
Ray, you have to understandlike you live in, a world where

(05:44):
I think in your mind, you thinknobody sees what you're doing in
your body language.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
You almost have no internal monologue.
Seriously, because it's notlike.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
Ray can put on an act where he's just like you know,
looking straight.
This is where he's like.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
I can visualize you in that element His nostrils
just flaring.

Speaker 3 (06:04):
I could add something to the mix.
What was adding to my fears wasalso not just the violent lady
with tattoos next to me, but mypastor, who was there, and he's
going to think oh, ray Comfort,the evangelist look, he's giving
out tracks, he's showing me howbold he is in doing this.
So I had that in the mix aswell.
So that's where Mark's chickenreally helped.

Speaker 4 (06:26):
Oh, that's so good, Mark.
And then somebody walked by usand Ray didn't give a track to
her and I said no, we're goingthe other direction.

Speaker 3 (06:30):
What?

Speaker 4 (06:30):
about her, ray, you just don't care about her.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
To all of our listeners with tattoos.
I invite you to the ministry.
Let's just stand there.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
No tattoos allowed here, mark, we should carry Mark
.
We should carry it wherever wego with Ray, we should carry it
with us.
Remember that chicken that KenHam sent Ray.
Do we have it?

Speaker 4 (06:49):
oh, where is?

Speaker 2 (06:50):
it.
I love that chicken, but carryit with us whenever Ray doesn't
give out a track we should get at-shirt printed with just the
word chicken on it.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
That would provoke conversations.
People would say what's chickenwritten there?
Well, I should be giving you agospel track, but I'm chicken.
We should get a t-shirt printedwith just the word chicken on
it.
That would provokeconversations.
People say what's chickenwritten there?
Well, I should be giving you agospel track, but I'm chicken.
At least you walk away, yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
That is good, ray.
Yeah, and we could have eggtrack, ray, by now, how long
you've had chickens and how manyyou have.
You should speak likechickenese.
You should understand theirevery m.
I actually can Wait, wait, wait.
You know when they lay.
This is taking a turn.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
You know when there's a big.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
Ouch Boy, the life of a chicken man.
That's pretty sad Time for acool, classy comment.
This is from CA7AWeCool cool.
I have no idea what that means,but the subject heading says
inspiring.
I started listening to thispodcast a few years ago and have

(07:54):
finally finished every episode.

Speaker 3 (07:56):
Guys, I run into people all the time that tells
me, tell me, the heading is, uh,perspiring, perspiring.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yeah, perspiring Every episode.
I came from a very roughupbringing with a very
legalistic church and abuse inthe home that drove me to drugs
and alcohol Tattoos.
I was a nut, to say the least.
After years of that life andalmost completely destroying my
life, I asked God to pull me outand he did.
Through multiple hardships andcircumstances, I finally

(08:25):
repented and surrendered to him.
I love that, ray.
Yes, I love it when people usethat.
I repented.

Speaker 3 (08:31):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
Because it's usually yeah, I gave my life to God, I
believe, but I repented.

Speaker 3 (08:34):
That's Jesus into my heart.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, I repented.
I finally repented andsurrendered to him and started
my real Christian journey.
Real Christian journey, RealChristian journey.
You guys have played a major,major role in helping me find
real truth and explaining toughissues.
This podcast has been a majormotivator in getting me into
evangelism and seeking to bringthe truth to others.

(08:57):
I've started a YouTube channeltelling people stories of
transformation and use that as atool for street evangelism.
I also have and will use moreof your resources.
I read the Evidence Bible,Evidence Study Bible almost

(09:17):
daily.
Thank you all so much.

Speaker 3 (09:17):
God bless you and keep.
You Can't keep up the greatwork.

Speaker 2 (09:18):
That's wonderful.
I don't know the name.
It just says CA7A we Cool.
It just says CA7AWeCool SoundsVietnamese.
Thank you so much for that.
You've encouraged us today andthat's why we do what we do.
So praise the Lord.
And now a radicallyrevolutionary resource.
This podcast is brought to youby Scientific Facts in the Bible

(09:42):
, ray.
Why, why, why did you writethis book?
I love it.
I love how you give it out onalmost every video.
Would you say it's your mostwell-received book.

Speaker 3 (09:55):
Ray.
It's your most well-receivedbook, Ray.
Oh man, what else do you?

Speaker 2 (09:59):
want him to say I'd like you to say, I want him to
say, I'd like you to say he drewa heck of red and rug of
bobbins.
He who hucked a rake of rakeand bug of bobbins.

Speaker 3 (10:09):
No, that was pretty good actually.
What's that thing you?
Always say that shape ARomadidic Hadron.
Oh man, it's a 20-sided figure,yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:17):
One of those, yeah, yeah, I want you to say that
though, ray, but with a Frenchaccent.
I can do that I for tell manyou need help, Ray, Don't forget
.

Speaker 3 (10:34):
Speaking of the French accent, we now have a
French agency coming up, whichwe're going to talk about later.
Not in this podcast, but Manuelis starting a French agency
having.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
French million-dollar bills, printed in France but is
that, manuel, don't forget theLiving Waters mug from which you
can take a chug, the evidencestudy Bible.
It's liable to bring aboutrevival.
Are you scratching?

Speaker 4 (10:58):
Oscar, yeah, I'm scratching.
He's got his hand up to his earlike a DJ.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
And don't forget Living Waters TV.
Join the thousands ofsubscribers and get exclusive
content and watch Ray scratchhis eye beneath his glasses, all
at livingwaterscom.
And don't forget the podcastYouTube channel where you can
see videos of us doing strangethings.

(11:25):
Oh man, that was funny.
All right, friends.
Today's topic is examining Ray,mark and Oscar's reconstruction
journey.
No, that's not itReconstruction.
You like that?
Oh?

Speaker 3 (11:41):
I see.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
Ah, got you guys.
Today we're talking aboutdeconstructionism, the
deconstruction movement, andwe're going to examine it.
Let's begin with a definition.
How's that?
You guys like definitions.
I love definitions.
What's the?

Speaker 3 (11:54):
definition of definition Define definition.

Speaker 2 (11:59):
Deconstruction I found this online is a process
by which a person criticallydismantles the beliefs they once
held as part of the Christianfaith, often driven by personal
experience, cultural influenceor offense, typically leading to
a rejection or redefinition ofcore biblical doctrines such as
the authority of Scripture, theexclusivity of Christ or the

(12:20):
nature of sin and salvation.
I like this note here.
This is distinct from healthyspiritual growth or theological
refinement, becausedeconstruction often begins with
the self as the authorityrather than scripture.
What do you?

Speaker 1 (12:36):
think.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Oscar Does that kind of sum it up.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
Yeah, that's really good, and you're right, I think
that distinction is reallyimportant and I think the reason
why that's really important isbecause there's a lot of people
that enter into season of theirlife that are struggling with
aspects of the Christian faith.
And I've walked some friendsthrough what they would
otherwise have called thedeconstruction process.

(13:00):
One who is no longer aChristian, sadly.
Another young man grew up in aconservative home and began to
struggle but found his way in anOrthodox, historic Christian
faith and is now thriving inministry and et cetera, et
cetera.
And another young man whostruggled with same-sex

(13:20):
attraction and began to mix thatup with deconstruction.
And a common thing that I seeis that some people with an
attempt to deconstruct, to befrustrated with what I would
categorize as Americanevangelicalism.
They begin to get frustratedwith certain aspects that they
see in American evangelicalculture and what they end up

(13:44):
doing is throwing the baby outin the bathwater, where I think
a healthy understanding of faith, what is the way you phrased it
?

Speaker 2 (13:53):
Where was it here?
It says this is a distinct froma healthy spiritual growth or
theological refinement, becausedeconstructionism again begins
with the self as the authorityrather than scripture.
I like that phrase, theologicalrefinement.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
I think there's something healthy and beautiful
when someone begins to reallydive into the scriptures and
distinguish the difference fromwhat I call Hobby Lobby
Christianity and what thescriptures actually say
Christianity is.
And unfortunately, what happensa lot of the times is people
end up throwing the baby out inthe bathwater.
And you're exactly right.

(14:23):
I've seen it happen over andover again.
It starts with frustrationabout a cultural issue and then
it turns to the inerrancy ofscripture and then it becomes
quickly about frustrations withscripture's view on sexuality
and all of this.
You hit it perfectly, all ofthis.
If we approach it from I am thesource of truth and authority.

(14:44):
I will determine for myselfwhat is true and what is false.
Then, ultimately, what you'vedone is made yourself your God
and you start from that premise.
And anytime you start withyourself as God, of course
you're going to reject the onetrue God, because you can only
have one God and if you're Him,then you're going to end up

(15:08):
moving away from your Creatorand Oscar.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
I think there's a deception in that, because who
would really, in an objective orin a concrete way, say oh, I'm
God?
But that's the deception.
Right With Adam, or with Eve,rather, and by extension, adam,
satan's temptation was you willbe like God, knowing good from
evil.
In other words, really you'llbe the arbiter of what's good

(15:31):
and evil.
You'll be the one to make thecall on what is good and what is
evil, and in essence, that'swhat's happening.
We're just removing God fromthe equation, we're removing the
authority of Scripture and nowwe're becoming the authority,
which means we're usurping God'sthrone and man.
That's destructive.
Ray, I want to ask you this youoften will pinpoint with

(15:53):
atheists what their truemotivation is, and that is you
just want to look at pornography, sleep with your girlfriend,
indulge in the pleasures of sin.
What role do you think thisplays in those who are
deconstructing Versus atheists,where people say I'm a Christian
, but I don't hold to thisanymore?

Speaker 3 (16:14):
I can't look at this whole issue without looking at
true and false conversion andthen going back to the false
gospel that tells sinners tocome because God has a wonderful
plan for your life.
This morning I was watching twovery well-known atheists.
One's an atheist, the other'san agnostic.
I think he's got long hair andhe used to be a singer.
He was a very high-profileChristian who turned his back on
Christ, etc.

(16:35):
And I yelled out in frustrationbecause there is a well-known
quote can't remember who it was,from, maybe Wesley.
They said failure to use the lawin proclamation of the gospel
end up with errors on the righthand and on the left.
And it's exactly what happened,this whole thing where he says
yes, I used to run around inthis booklet, god has a

(16:56):
wonderful plan for your life,and we'd go down to Palm Beach.
All these kids were partyingand every now and then you'd
find someone who was miserablewith that, with that, and you
tell them the gospel, which it'snot the gospel.
God has a wonderful plan foryour life.
It's not the gospel.
You say oh well, what about theabundant life?
The apostle Paul had anabundant life.
It was filled with shipwrecks,stonings, beatings, martyrdom.

(17:19):
He was persecuted many times.
How many times was he lashedWas?

Speaker 4 (17:25):
it 39 times.

Speaker 3 (17:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (17:26):
Five, 39 times 39.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
Five times I received .
Was it four or five times?
I received Five times Fivetimes 39.

Speaker 3 (17:33):
And there was 39 lashes, because anything more
than that would cause death.
And so he had that five times.
His body must have been anabsolute mess.
And that's the wonderful plan.
No, the promise of Christianityis not happiness but
righteousness.
And so this guy was saying so.
These ones are the ones thatheard our gospel, the ones that
were miserable after a night ofpartying and all it was.

(17:54):
They were vulnerable becausethey had a gospel that promises
happiness.
Jesus will make you happy andfix all these problems, fix your
God-shaped vacuum in your heart.
But Jesus didn't come to giveus happiness, he came to give us
righteousness.
So when you change the gospel,you mess up the motive for
people making a commitment tochrist.
Nathan didn't say to david godhas a wonderful plan for your

(18:15):
life.
When he committed adultery andcommitted murder, he said why
have you despised thecommandment of the lord?
And then we see the penitentprayer, prayer of Psalm 51,
which is what's lacking intoday's so-called converts.
So I've got this tremendousfrustration in seeing literally
multitudes in the same state ofthese two young guys, or
particularly this agnostic, asbeing looking back and

(18:37):
objectively saying what theyused to do and who they used to
go for, and he was the fruit ofthat erroneous gospel.
And we have to go back tobiblical evangelism and preach
the law.
Listen to what a well-knownpreacher once said.
He said and evermore the lawmust prepare the way for the
gospel.
To overlook this in instructingsouls as almost certain, result

(18:59):
in false hope, the introductionof a false standard of
Christian experience and to fillthe church with false converts.
So those three things thatwould happen Give people a false
standard of Christianexperience and to fill the
church with false converts.
So those three things thatwould happen Give people a false
hope.
So we have multitudes sittingwithin the church who think
they're saved but they've neverhad a knowledge of sin, and so
they've got a false sense ofassurance they're saved when
they've never truly repented.
You've got a false standard ofChristian experience, asking

(19:22):
Jesus into your heart andfinding that he helps you
prosper in many things.
So we have masses of peoplethat embrace the unbiblical
prosperity gospel, and then itfills the church with false
converts, just masses of themthat don't have the things that
accompany salvation.
So it comes back to the straightgate.
Straight is the gate and narrowis the way that leads to life,

(19:43):
and few there be that find it,jesus said.
He said strive to enter at thestraight gate.
That word strive comes from thesame root word that we derive,
our word agonize.
So it's not easy to become aChristian.
Let your laugh to be turned tomourning and your joy to
heaviness.
In addressing sinners, jamessays and so then Jesus followed

(20:04):
up that verse with broad is thepath that leads to destruction,
and many go in that way.
That's not speaking of theworld, it's a way of entry.
There's a path that's preached.
That's a path of falseconversion that people enter
into.
The stony ground hero thatpersists for a time, or stays
the tears among the wheat.
The stony ground hero thatpersists for a time or stays the

(20:25):
tears among the wheat.
The foolish virgins among thewise, the sheep among the goats
and the bad fish among the goodfish.
They're sitting there until theday of judgment.
And so may God give us agenuine revival where the church
raises up and doesn't waterdown the gospel but preaches it
in truth.
That's my heart, that's my hopman Ray.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
so good, mark, we've heard this from Ray so much, and
yet we cannot underestimate thedamage that has been done
because of an unbiblical gospelthat's been preached right.
I mean, I'd love you to speakto that and to how many we've

(21:03):
personally seen who, becausethey've had this
misunderstanding, walk away fromthe Lord.

Speaker 4 (21:10):
Yeah, I remember going inside my parents' vehicle
and changing all their presetradio stations to Christian
radio stations, thinking I'msharing the gospel with them.
Maybe I'm the only one that hasever kind of done that and not
knowing really what I'm doing.
And it wasn't birth from aheart of.

Speaker 3 (21:29):
It was zeal without knowledge.

Speaker 4 (21:30):
Yeah, that's it.
It was just zeal withoutknowledge, not knowing how to
reach them.
Let me say this Let me back upa little bit here, because if we
talk about deconstruction,right, there's nothing wrong
with examining what you believe.
We should that, right.
Paul Little he wrote a bookcalled Know what you Believe and

(21:53):
then he wrote a book Know whyyou Believe what you Believe.
There's nothing wrong withsaying is what I believe true
and accurate?
Remember when Jesus was talkingto the apostles, he said the
disciples, why do you reasonamongst yourselves?
And that's where they wentwrong.
They're reasoning amongstthemselves without a foundation
of truth.
And Isaiah says come, let usreason together.

(22:17):
So if you're going to reason,reason with a foundation of
truth.
That foundation of truth leadsyou to more truth.
And when you remove God fromthe equation, you're removing
truth from the equation, right?
So deconstruction is not thesame as honest doubt.

(22:37):
You can have doubt, but what isthat doubt about?
You say I don't know about this.
So you open up the Word of Godto find the answer.
That's what you do.
You don't go to the world'smethods and the world's
philosophies to try tounderstand something that is
transcendent.
You still have the samequestions that I have.

(22:59):
But now you don't have afoundation for truth.
Somebody said you can't searchfor truth while you sit in
darkness and you're comfortableto be there, right?
So what do we do?
James 1, 6, let him ask infaith, with no doubting, for the
one who doubts is like a waveof the sea.
Right, you're tossed to and fro, right.
Biblical doubt says help mebelieve I believe.

(23:24):
Help my unbelief.
Right, it's who we are askingto and we are expecting an
answer.
You want knowledge.
Go to school.
You want wisdom.
You get on your knees.
So we want a greaterunderstanding of God about the
purpose of man.
Why am I here?
How did I get here?
What's going to happen to meafter I die?
When you're left to yourself ina corner in the dark asking

(23:51):
these questions withoutincluding God in the equation,
well then, every man's going todo that which seems right in his
own eyes.
Biblical doubt says help mybelief.
Deconstruction says help meleave.
Help me, leave myaccountability over me.
Help me to leave.
Who's in charge of me.
Help me to leave what's goingon so I can do good.
What is it?
The Satanic Bible says do good.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
Do as thou wilt.

Speaker 4 (24:14):
Do as thou wilt.
Do as thou wilt.
If it feels good, do it right.

Speaker 3 (24:19):
It's good that you've got that memorized.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
Well, you know, Anton LaVey and I were buddies.

Speaker 4 (24:25):
God makes room for doubters, but he doesn't give
them a platform to preach.
He gives them room for doubtersto come and talk to him.
We must always go back to theLord.
John Piper worded it like this.
He said there is a kind ofdoubt that is the cry of a
broken heart and there is a kindthat is a smirk of pride.

(24:46):
That's good.
Who said that?
I just did just now.
You can't hear me, yeah, yeah,you guys heard that, john Piper.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
That's good.
I love where you're going withthis because I feel like we
almost need to have a.
We need to rediscover, redefinea theology of uncertainty
Meaning.
There are so many.
I've witnessed firsthand thatthere are so many churches that
have this culture which is like,if you doubt, you're out.
This is unspokenly an unsafespace for you to ask questions

(25:17):
about your faith.
As soon as you start asking thewrong kind of questions, you're
not one of us and you startbeing looked at the wrong way.
Sometimes well-meaning pastorsand this happened to me when I
first started going to churchwell-meaning pastors read that
one book on apologetics and hasthat one liner memorized, and so
when you come in and ask asincere question, you can tell
they're not giving you athoughtful response.

(25:38):
They're giving you rhetoricthat they've prepared beforehand
.
This is not helpful.
The challenge here is that thescriptures actually give us
words for uncertainty.
The Psalms are filled.
Psalm 79, asaph where are you,o Lord?
I mean, think about that.

(25:59):
Asaph writes a poem aboutquestioning about his
uncertainty in regards to hisfaith.
God, in his sovereignty, takesthat and turns it into his
inerrant, authoritative word,meaning God gives us his word to
ask him questions regarding ouruncertainty of him, and I just

(26:21):
the local church and us asdisciplers need to be available
for the uncertainty in youngChristians' mind.
And here's one of the things Iwould say is that I think so
often the church endorses ablind faith, but we also
participate in that too.
Like so often, what happens iswe're walking around in our

(26:41):
Christian faith and this momentof doubt comes up.
We're like what about my friendwho just died of cancer?
You know what?
I'm not even going to thinkabout that right now.
I'm just going to put thatquestion away and come back to
it later.
Huh, I wonder what is up withthe authority of scripture.
You know what?
I'm going to put that one away.
Huh, I wonder what is up withthe relationship between slavery
and the Bible?
You know what?
I'm going to put that one awayand think about that one later.

(27:02):
And what ends up happening?
This is good.
What ends up happening is thatwe walk away from the faith, not
because we think too much, butbecause we think too little
about it.
The best example that I have iswe all like the email that we
started with that we no longercheck.
You know, in high school I hadlike a Yahoo account.

(27:24):
After a while it's like the oneemail account I use to sign up
for everything on the internet.
And now there's 10,000 emails inthere.
I don't even check it Right.
And what do you do when thathappens?
You end up eventuallyabandoning the email to start a
new one.
What I'm saying is that so manyof us have unanswered questions

(27:44):
about the faith that we end upabandoning the faith to go find
something new.
But again you're walking away,not because you thought too much
, but because you were thinkingtoo little about the faith.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
Oh yeah, amen, Well put.
And there are times when I'llcome across someone who had
deconstructed, and then they'llshare with me what their qualms
were and this was maybe yearslater and I'm thinking, are you
serious?
You didn't have someone walkyou through that?
Listen, I can remedy that foryou right now.

(28:17):
I mean, this is basic, but it'stragic.
And you know, one of the thingsthat I've seen is that what
people don't realize whenthey're deconstructing
especially when it's on thebasis of emotions like I don't
like that or it shouldn't belike that especially those that
end up in the atheistic realm,which is where a lot of people

(28:38):
do end up.
They don't realize what they'redoing.
It shouldn't be like this.
Okay, pause, let's just let'sbox that in, let's hone in on it
.
What is like this mean?
What do you mean by this?
Well, you know, this isn't fair, this isn't right, this isn't
good.
Okay, let's box that in andlet's analyze that.

(29:00):
What is goodness?
What is fairness?
What is rightness?
Right, mark.

Speaker 4 (29:05):
Yeah, where do you get your bigger scope?
Because that's what you'redoing.
You're having a bigger view, abigger scope of what should be,
what ought to be, and you'rerecognizing what is to be.
So you're saying, hey, this iswrong.
By what standard is this wrong?
By what standard are youaccusing wrongdoing?
What is going on?
And there's another picture herewhen you leave the Christian

(29:28):
faith, where are you going?
I mean, he alone holds thewords to eternal life.
Jesus said to Peter are yougoing to leave?
Also, and he goes, to whom am Igoing to go?
I mean, I may not understandeverything and I explain it this
way to people.
I say look, I don't understandexactly how my digestive system
works for my small intestine,large intestine, but it doesn't

(29:48):
keep me from eating when youcome across something.
Chuck Smith once said, when youcome across something you don't
understand, you fall back onthat which you do understand.
You don't need to understandeverything, but is it enough to
know that God knows?
Because sometimes that's reallyall that you have.
Well, I know that God knows,that I'm going through this and

(30:11):
it is well with my soul that heknows what he's doing.
I don't need to raise my fist,I can just say, lord, you know,
and while I go through the fire,as I sing Reiner's Fire, I'm
going to trust.

Speaker 2 (30:23):
Sing it Ray Ray.
What's that?
Sing it Ray what?

Speaker 3 (30:25):
are the words.
I've never heard it before.
Go ahead, say this with allsincerity and love Get behind me
.

Speaker 4 (30:34):
We trust the God.
To whom is that work in usright?
So if somebody were to say, forexample, lord, crush me, god
does not sit there maniacallyputting his hands together
saying you said it, I'm going todo it right, I mean, he's a

(30:55):
heavenly father.
If you need it, he will do it.
If you don't need it, he's notgoing to do it.
What I like to say is, when I amgoing through the fire, if
there's something else in therethat just doesn't belong, just
remove that dross, let that flowto the top and just get rid of
that.
It's like that person who wewere in a meeting I don't know

(31:16):
if you remember several yearsago and there was a person being
accused of something in ameeting.
I don't know if you rememberseveral years ago and there was
a person being accused ofsomething and he had confessed
it, that he was wrong.
But this person wanted it to gobefore more people and his
response I'll never forget.
And Rachel was there and theresponse was look, when you're
done accusing me, I have manymore confessions I can make as

(31:38):
well.
I have many more confessions Ican make as well, if that'll
help you out, but I'm forgivenfor the things that I've done.
This is the difference betweenliving in an accusational state
of towards God or receiving thataccusation.
But where am I going to go?
Lord, I've messed up.
You alone hold the words toeternal life In 1 John 2, 19,.

(32:00):
They went out from us for theywere not of us.
Leaving the faith does not setyou free.
There's not a break.
You're not having abreakthrough when you leave the
faith.
You're not having this ahamoment.
The light is turning on.
Everybody else is wrong.
And then where do you go?
Where are you finding truthwithin this world?

(32:22):
He alone holds the words toeternal life.
If you don't run to him, you'rerunning away from him.
But every step away from him isa step closer to judgment.
Yeah, amen.

Speaker 3 (32:30):
Luke 9, 62,.
Whoever puts his hand to theplow and looks back is not fit
for the kingdom.
That word fit is eutheto.
It means ready for use.
In other words, the soil hasbeen turned.
We've got this little storyabout two men on a plane.
If someone wants to deconstruct, the question to ask them is
why did you put the parachute on?
There you go.
It's as simple as that.

(32:50):
If they say, for the jump I'vegot to take, I've got to jump
out of this plane, nothing willget it off their back.
But if they've put it on for abit of flight, when the flight
gets bumpy they'll have someexcuse.
Someone's kicked the back of myseat and taken this off.
So it comes back to motive.
If you came to Christ fleeingfrom the wrath to come, you'll
continue to know there's wrathto come and you'll cling to him

(33:11):
because he's your life.
Richest prophet, not on the dayof wrath, but righteousness
delivers from death.
So you hold the righteousnessof Christ, which is your life.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
You know, I love, mark, that quote by Piper the
broken heart versus the smirk inthe realm of doubt.
Oscar men like Spurgeon as anexample.
I like Spurgeon.

Speaker 3 (33:33):
Yeah, I do too, and women like Spurgeon.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
Yeah, they found a recording of Spurgeon's voice.
The law of the Lord is perfect.

Speaker 3 (33:43):
There's a lawsuit from his son.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
By the way, friends, a little trivia for you.
Spurgeon's great, great greatgrandson got saved through
listening to Hell's Best KeptSecret, which Ray got from
reading one of Spurgeon'ssermons.

Speaker 3 (34:02):
And he showed up and showed us his family tree.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
Yeah, and he wrote the foreword to a book Ray wrote
called Spurgeon Gold.
How cool was that?
No doubt Spurgeon prayed forhis progeny, that God would save
him.
Then he took a message.
God took a message thatSpurgeon preached, used it to
bring Hell's Best Kept Secret.
And then Ring house was keptsecret and then his great, great
, great grandson hears it andgets saved.

Speaker 4 (34:19):
Amazing, tremendous yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
But my point is men like Spurgeon, who were giants,
who are still impacting millions, dealt with doubt, but the
broken hearted kind of doubt Imean Spurgeon went into deep
melancholy and seasons ofstruggle.
Speak, oscar, to the believerwho's listening to us now, who's

(34:43):
saying I'm riddled with doubt,I'm constantly struggling and
battling.
Not that they're ultimatelydoubting God, but just they deal
with these things that entertheir heart and mind.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
Man, I'm so glad you brought that up, and this is
something that I'm deeplypassionate about, having both
been there and seeing peoplewalk through this.
Let me remind you that you arenot saved by the strength of
your faith, but by the strengthof the object of your faith, and
the object of your faith isChrist, crucified on the cross,

(35:16):
and so often our problem is thatwe have a pinprick
understanding of the object ofour faith and one of the ways
that I explain it.

Speaker 4 (35:26):
That is so convicting .

Speaker 1 (35:27):
just right there, I have a sermon called Faith and
Doubt Doubting Our Doubts.
And one of the ways I explainit is like you think about when
turbulence hits on an airplane.
The FAA would argue that not asingle plane has ever come down
because of turbulence.
Or if not a single plane, thenat least it's like nearly
impossible for a plane to justfall out of the sky because of

(35:50):
turbulence.
It's always gravity.
It's always gravity, that's true, here's the point though, is
that they can tell us that untilthey're blue in the face.
They can tell us how we'restatistically more likely to get
into a car accident and die onthe way to the airport than
actually flying in the airplane.
It doesn't matter whenturbulence hits and you look out
the window and you see thewings bending.
Everybody is afraid, right?

(36:11):
Do you think the pilot isscared?
Have you ever been on anairplane and the pilot's like,
ooh, this is tough, it's goingto be a 50-50 shot here.
Pilots aren't afraid ofturbulence.
Why?
Because they've gone to school.
They know something about theengineering of the airplane,
they know something aboutaerodynamics.
That they have the confidencethat when turbulence hits,

(36:31):
they're like oh, it'll be oversoon.
You see, we need to be like thepilot.
We need to be like the pilot.
We need to study the object ofour faith.
And here's the good news you,as a passenger of that airplane,
your doubt in aerodynamics andengineering doesn't make the
plane any weaker.
Right, you're not in dangerbecause you don't believe.
You're just as safe.

(36:52):
And that's what I'm saying isthat the strength of your faith
doesn't come on how much or howstrongly you believe.
The scriptures tell us withfaith of a mustard seed, we can
move a mountain.
Nobody I've ever met can movemountains, which means our faith
is smaller than a mustard seed.
But it doesn't matter, becauseour faith is dependent on the
object of our faith Christcrucified on the cross.

(37:17):
One more thing, and I had aseason of doubt and uncertainty
in my life and I came across thestory of John the Baptist in
that season and it brought me somuch courage because I saw it
from a whole new light.
Think about who John the Baptistis.
The scriptures tell us thatbefore he was born, he was

(37:40):
worshiping Jesus the weird storyof him in the womb and Jesus in
the womb and they're at like ababy shower or whatever and he
starts worshiping the Messiah.
He was the first evangelist.
He got to baptize the Son ofGod.
He witnessed the Holy Spiritcome down like a dove.
He heard the audible voice ofGod.

(38:00):
This dude's faith had to havebeen stronger than any of ours.
He was John the Baptist At theend of his life.
He is imprisoned, he's waitingto be beheaded by Herod and he
writes Jesus a letter and hesays are you the one or should

(38:20):
we look for another?
At the end of his life, the manwith all of that faith began to
stumble.
He had uncertainty Are you theone or should we look for
another?
And Jesus gets this letter andI, like I always picture it.
This is totally extra biblicalmeaning.
This is not in the scriptures.
But the way I imagine this islike his disciples probably

(38:42):
looked over his shoulder, sawthe letter and they're like oh
man, jesus is going to be reallyupset.
You know, I wonder what he'sgoing to say about John the
Baptist.
And he gets up and it's likewhat?
Six, seven verses later, jesussays you guys know, john the
Baptist and his disciples arelike here we go, he's going to
smash him.
And he says greatest, born of awoman.
That is the faith, that's theperson in which we have faith,

(39:07):
and while your faith weakens, heholds tightly to you.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
Amen.
Good word, oscar, so well put,brother.
And we need to remember that,you know, because it's true,
like our conduct is going tocorrelate with the steadiness of
the object of our faith andit's remember there I like the
way it's put it's not greatfaith in God, it's faith in a

(39:34):
great God and we need toremember that.
And you know, sometimes you getpeople who try to enter into
the intellectual realm and theyuse that as their reasoning for
no longer believing in God, inthis deconstruction journey that
they might take.
And I love the way this oneapologist put it.

(39:56):
He said it's almost like peoplebegin to really examine Ford's
Model T and they're just lookingat it and they start to
understand how it works and howit functions and all the amazing
things about it, and then theirconclusion is there's no such

(40:18):
person as Ford, because now weunderstand how it works, so
therefore there must be no Ford.
How stupid is that?
The examination of Ford's ModelT is evidence that Ford existed
.
It should cause you to be morein awe of his genius and what he
did and what he invented.

(40:39):
So we need to remember that.
And I like that title, oscar,doubting Our Doubts, like to
look at them and say what arethese Like?
What am I building my case on?
Connect that to what we talkedabout earlier that it makes no
sense to have moral absolutes bywhich you're judging God and
the faith when you have nofoundation for those moral

(40:59):
absolutes.
I mean you become thatfoundation and the faith.
When you have no foundation forthose moral absolutes, I mean
you become that foundation.
And who are you?
You're in a world of doubtyourself.
So what kind of stability isthat?

Speaker 4 (41:09):
John Piper concerning the text, the verse that Oscar
just mentioned, he said, yes,John the Baptist was doubting
John's in prison.
He's likely discouraged,confused, because the Messiah
wasn't bringing the kind ofjudgment he had preached about
in Luke, chapter 3.
Jesus was healing and teaching,but not delivering justice in
the way that John hadanticipated.
Then he said the greatest manborn of woman struggled with

(41:32):
doubts in prison and Jesusdidn't rebuke him, he honored
him right.
So he uses the story toencourage people, just like as
what was just mentioned there.
And I just want to kind ofunderline this for just a moment
before we go on, because thisis big, we come across a lot of
people who have doubt, who arediscouraged, who are depressed,

(41:53):
and you begin to think well,where is God?
I faithfully served you, whereare you?
And we have these unmetexpectations and we're putting
an expectation in ourcircumstance and not in God.
Well, our circumstance willalways let us down.
They have to let us downbecause they're not designed to
fulfill.
So we have to always findourselves being fulfilled in

(42:17):
Christ, regardless of oursituation and our circumstance,
our monetary possession, ourposition, our promotion.
We go to Christ, we reason withHim, we run to Him because
there's no other place to go.
2 Peter 1.5.
It says make every effort tosupplement your faith with

(42:39):
virtue, and it goes on, withknowledge, self-control and
godliness.
As these doubts come in, wedon't deconstruct them, we
develop them.
And now, when we engage inconversation, we know how to
lead other people.
But we have to reiterate and goback to the idea.
We don't reason amongstourselves because we have flawed

(43:02):
thinking.
We reason with Him, who istranscendent, dwells outside of
time, who has revealedeverything we will ever need to
know, not want to know, buteverything we need to know,
found within Scripture, FromGenesis 1-1 to Revelation 22-21,
everything is found right there.
Let's run to Him and not to ourown imaginations, which are vain

(43:23):
.

Speaker 2 (43:23):
Yeah, and I think that cry of Lord, I believe,
help my unbelief.
You know, to be honest with Godand also to not dwell by
yourself with your doubts, right, I mean, I know Mark you're
alluding to like make sure toinform yourself of Scripture,

(43:44):
but also to bring other brethrenin who will pray for you,
encourage you and give youinsight, who maybe are a little
further ahead of where you're atand who may be gone through it
themselves.
You know, so important yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:51):
Easy.
I think an important part ofthat and something where we need
to confess and I'm confessingthis as a pseudo evangelist, a
wannabe evangelist to confessand I'm confessing this as a
pseudo evangelist, a wannabeevangelist is that apologetics
could only take somebody so far,and so when people are
questioning things and we havethe right answer, we can solve
the riddle for them.
It's like oh well, I just Iprovided the answer.

(44:12):
Why aren't they now believing?
I love CS Lewis's way oflooking at it.
Remember, he was an atheist,became a Christian and he said
becoming a Christian was a lotlike falling in love.
And what he's alluding to isthe reality that we don't doubt
because we have a head issue.
We don't doubt because it'ssomething we're thinking and
knowing.
We doubt because there'ssomething wrong with the heart.

(44:36):
We have disordered loves in ourheart, and I mean this is so
important because so many of us,we try to treat the human
condition as though we arebrains on a stick.
This is David Hume, the Frenchphilosopher, and all we need to
do is rein in our emotions to beable to figure out what is true
, but fast forward one thatdisagrees with scripture.
Scriptures tell us that we areprimarily loving things.

(44:57):
It's what Augustine said.
Sin is an issue of disorderedloves.
And then even modern philosophy,the righteous mind, jonathan
Haidt, in his book the RighteousMind.
He is an atheist.
He admits that we are notbrains on a stick.
We are primarily lovers, thatwe decide what is true based on

(45:20):
our affections, and then we useour brains to defend that with
air quotes.
Truth.
And the best example that hegives in that is that our hearts
are like the president.
The president comes out and hemakes a statement.
This is the policy, this is theprocedure, this is the
direction the nation is going.
And then he leaves and thepress secretary comes out, and
the job of the press secretaryis to defend the position the

(45:42):
president has already made.
And so Jonathan Haidt says ourheart is like the president, it
falls in love, it choosessomething to believe in, and
then our brains are like thepress secretary it gathers data,
it gathers information todefend the belief the heart has
already chosen.
How can this inform us asapologists, as disciplers?

(46:04):
It can inform us this way isthat providing answers isn't
enough.
We need to aim for an expulsivepower of a new affection,
pointing them to Christ and oncethey see the beauty and
goodness and affection of Christ, then the head stuff starts to
become, starts realigning itselfwith the direction of the heart

(46:28):
of the person.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
Amen and look.
I would encourage those of youwho are listening now, who
struggle with doubts, pause fora moment and again analyze what
doubts are and what they'reconnected to.
The fact that you can doubtmeans that you're a rational,
reasonable thinking, breathing,articulating human being.

(46:56):
All of that has numerousmarvels and miracles attached to
it Because, ultimately, you'regoing toward well.
Is there even a God or is thereany meaning?
But think of what you're doing.
What are you?
Why would you ask that Exactly?
And the fact that you have thefaculties and features that

(47:16):
allow you to do that, it shouldblow your mind and cause you to
step back and say like wow.
And then, additionally, let mesay that what I've shared before
, remember what James says showme your faith without your works
.
I'll show you my faith by myworks, which means that faith is
not this elusive sort of kindof mystical, cosmic thing that

(47:41):
you're trying to grasp like windin your hand.
It's concrete in that you candemonstrate you have it by what
you do, despite what you feel orthink, and have enough to say
okay, well, who is it I'mplacing my faith in?
Who should I?
Let's just go there, of anyonethat's ever lived, who is the

(48:02):
most valid person to place myfaith in?
Would it not be the man thatsplit time?
Would it not be the man whorevolutionized the world?
Would it not be the man whospoke words that, when we truly
sincerely look at them, we'redumbfounded because of their
profundity, Like we need topause there and then ask

(48:23):
yourself what is it?
I'm doubting.
What book, of any book in theuniverse should you trust?
Wouldn't it be the mostpublished, translated, sold,
read, studied, proclaimed bookin history that contains
prophecies that are undeniable?
I mean, you know what I'msaying.
Like these are the doubting,your doubts, things like

(48:44):
stepping back and saying wait aminute, ray, the Bible is Ray
the devious one.

Speaker 4 (48:53):
Before you switch, are you switching subjects?
Because?

Speaker 2 (48:56):
I just want to add something to what you said
because it's so beautiful, dlMoody.

Speaker 4 (49:00):
he said I prayed for faith and I thought it would
strike me like lightning, butfaith didn't come.
It wasn't until I opened myBible that faith has grown ever
since.
We're praying for faith.
We're praying for a lack ofbelief, we're praying so that we
can believe bigger, greater.

(49:22):
And then how do you expect thatto come?
So therefore, moody is saying Iopened up the word of God and
then my faith grew.
It's not a blind faith.
Go down this alley and hope youmake it.
And you've never been to thispart of town.
No, it is substantive, right,it is actual, evidential in its

(49:42):
nature, given by him who cannotlie, alistair Begg.
He said the Bible is not givento us simply to inform us.
It is given to transform usAmen, Amen, Ray.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
The Bible is axiomatic Hedabah.
Explain that to us please.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
Hedabah.
Well, let me go back to theHedabah in a minute, but just
talk about what you were talkingabout, because what you're
talking about was so good.
I would like to put out a Biblecalled the insane version,
because when you read the wordsof Jesus, they are insane if he
wasn't God.
Yeah, he said.
The Pharisees rebuked him andsaid tell your disciples not to

(50:24):
cry out in praise of you.
He said the stones will cry out.
If they don't, the stones willcry out.
The inanimate objects that Godcreated would cry out.
And man refuses to give Godglory.
You think how many you try it.
The humble shall hear.
My soul shall make her boast inthe Lord.
The humble shall hear and beglad.
You want to see a proud heart.
Just go up and say I want totell you what God did for me,

(50:46):
that will offend them, they'llsay no, no, that was a
coincidence.
That's nature.
Anything, but give God glory,for the humble will hear and be
glad.
Deconstruction is a subtle formof self-destruction.
That's what it is.
I mean, you think about whatpeople are doing, and that's why
I love saying to someone whosays I doubt this, I doubt that,

(51:09):
say, look, it's not God'sexistence.
We're're talking about youhaving sex with your gorgeous
girlfriend, aren't you?
And up goes the mouth, thecorner mouth and the edges.
And I've had so many people sayyou're right.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
Ray's become a body language expert, Seriously from
witnessing.
Oh, it's just wonderful.

Speaker 3 (51:24):
I mean if someone goes, pulls in their lips,
they're going to get angry anyminute.
I saw a lady do it the otherday.
I thought she's going to walkoff and she did.
Within two minutes she walkedoff and she was angry and those
lips showed me where she wasgoing.
But yeah, men love darknessrather than light, because their
deeds are evil and that'susually the problem.
How can anyone doubt theexistence of God to think that

(51:45):
all we look at happened becauseof an explosion of nothing
caused by nothing?
It's just insane.
Just take one part of God'screation hummingbirds.
Just say the word hummingbirdto yourself and watch it flap
its wing what?
50 times a second, and look howfar I mean.
When I see a hummingbird I getreal excited, but I can't watch

(52:07):
them for more than two secondsbecause they're off, they go and
they're gone.
And there's no helicopter thatcan do anything like what the
hummingbird does.
It flies backwards all over theplace.
So we see the genius of God'screative hand in his creation
and so we can have doubts whenwe go through a Job experience
that's legitimate.
You know, where is God in this?
I can't see it.

(52:27):
You've got a friend that justlost his wife and a horrific
thing.
We pray for him and his familyevery day because he went
through such a terribleexperience and I can imagine
doubts coming to him, notdoubting God's existence or what
Jesus did on the cross, butjust why did this happen?
And that's understandable andpeople are like we need to weep
with him.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
Yeah, yeah, it's so good.
And look, I would say to anyonelistening right now who's
struggling man, sit with theWord for a while.
Sit with the Word, just gothrough the Sermon on the Mount,
just read the words of Christand it's impossible not to be

(53:15):
moved if you're really brokenand repentant and open and
genuine, because his words arejust, they're beyond.
They're beyond which, oh yeah,ray, axiomatic.

Speaker 3 (53:31):
Axiomatic, self-evident.
What was the analogy Touch?

Speaker 2 (53:35):
the heater.

Speaker 3 (53:36):
Yeah, if you've got a little kid looking at a heater
bar and his dad comes in andsays, son, don't touch that
heater, it's hot, the kidintellectually believes the
heater's hot.
But dad walks out and the kidsays to himself, I wonder if it
really is hot.
So he reaches out and grabs theheater bar in his little pinky
fingers and as he hears he stopsbelieving the heat is hot.

(53:57):
He now knows it's hot.
He's moved out of the realm ofintellectual belief into the
realm of personal experience.
And that's what happens whenyou come to Christ.
We all believe in God, webelieve in Jesus intellectually,
but when we obey the gospel wereach out and touch the
Hidabarba's love and his mercyand that's an experience where
you become a new creature inChrist and nothing will take

(54:19):
that from you.
Ooh, so good.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
Mark.

Speaker 4 (54:23):
What.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
I'd love you to talk a little bit about what your
thoughts are regarding ourmodern era social media, the
Internet, how much this plays arole in people heading toward
deconstruction.

Speaker 4 (54:46):
You know, that's a good question, because what is
social media?
I think the purpose of socialmedia really is designed to stay
in touch.
I think that's kind of whereMySpace started off at to stay
in touch with old friends, tocollaborate on different
projects, things of that nature.
And then it's kind of evolvedor devolved, however you want to
look at that, and it's gotteninto a very unsafe place.

(55:10):
Because what do we post?
We post only the best.
We post the best angles, thebest thoughts.
We post things to getpurposeful here.
We post in order to get likesand follows, to get individual
clout.
We are posting now to makeourselves look different than we

(55:36):
actually are, perhaps, perhaps.
And what is happening is wehave people that we respect, and
we respect them because theyare TikTok famous or they're
YouTube famous or they'reInstagram famous, and we see
people pull that card whenthey're pulled over by police.
Don't you know who I am?
And the police officer respondswhy Did your mom never tell you
?

Speaker 1 (55:57):
And we have these.

Speaker 4 (55:58):
But Instagram reels have replaced news outlets, and
we can only handle reading 280characters.
That's where we're at, and sowe have.
Now, with the onslaught ofChatGPT, it becomes even more
dangerous to be able to fitthings in.
We are following people whoshould never be followed.

(56:20):
We are following these moversand shakers who have never been
moved or shaped by Christ.
They've never been shaped byChrist.
They've never been molded intoHis image.
There's a form of godliness,but they deny Christ altogether.
And so what happens?

(56:41):
We have somebody asking aquestion, a legitimate question.
Maybe it's on a story, maybeit's Instagram Live, maybe it's
something that they're justtrying to work through, and then
they never come back for theanswer because, quite frankly,
they don't care about you.
They don't For whatever reason.
They are doing what they'redoing, or they're reading

(57:02):
something and they're askingthings amongst themselves, and
they're never coming to Christ.
We just need to be careful, notwhat we take in, but how we
take in.
What is the scripturalreference, ray?
I hear you say it.
You know, concerning, like thenews, it's not what we take in,
but how we take in.
What is the scripturalreference, ray?
I hear you say it.
Concerning the news, it's notwhat we Be careful of, not what
you take in, but how you take in.
What is the reference?

(57:22):
I don't remember, ouch.

Speaker 3 (57:24):
You just punished me.
God will chase me in his time.

Speaker 4 (57:29):
But it's what we take in.
It's ouch, he pinched me back.
It's how we take in.
It's ouch, he pinched me back.
It's how we take in what wetake in.
We have to take things in theworld through a grain of salt.
So when we see some sort of acelebrity or musician who's
asking questions, or we seethese people that are so
friendly and so happy, sooutgoing, there's a price tag
attached to it and you don'tknow what price tag they're

(57:49):
going to pay and how.
You are in a pain as well bywhat they're going through.
So, social media plays a hugepart because we look up to these
people and we really shouldn't.
We don't know anything aboutthem and we idolize them and
that becomes idolatrous.

Speaker 2 (58:05):
Yeah, and I think it's an issue of, you know,
following that example or beinginfluenced by that example.
You know, I've often talkedabout how, in this, you know,
transgender age.
How many of these young peoplewould have ever even thought of
like, oh, maybe I'm not a man,maybe I'm not a woman, but it's
that.
It's just that accessibilityand that constant example.

(58:27):
It's like the world's bullypulpit, you know, and so you're
influenced and impacted by that.
Yeah, you said it better thanme.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
That's perfect, let me say, because you guys are
both onto something reallyimportant here and three books
Habits of the Heart, rhythms ofGrace and we Are what we Love.
They all talk about the samething, which is kind of what I
was alluding to before Ourbeliefs are shaped by our hearts
.
And then these books go a stepfurther and say our hearts are

(58:56):
shaped by our habits.
And so, if you think about it,this is something that many
people have been talking aboutonline, which is that the church
has a discipleship issue, andthat is this is that most people
are not involved in gospelcommunity.
They would call themselvesmembers of a church, but they
show up for 45 minutes to anhour and a half on Sunday,

(59:18):
listen to some music, listen toa sermon, and then leave.
And then Monday they get up andthey listen to Joe Rogan, and
Tuesday they get up and listento XYZ.
And Wednesday, thursday, friday, saturday In other words,
they've got six days a week five, six, seven, eight hours a day
of being discipled by someonenot a Christian right, and so

(59:43):
what ends up happening is sowhat can we do?
This is important, especiallyfor the deconstructionists.
You have to recognize if whatyou believed is shaped by your
heart, and your heart is shapedby your habits.
What are your habits?
As someone once said, show me aman's habits and I'll show you
his heart.
Like if, if, if, every morningyou wake up and the first thing
you do is scroll Instagram, thatis heart shaping habit Number

(01:00:08):
one.
If the last thing you do beforewalking into bed is watching
Fox news CNN, if the last thingyou do before walking into bed
is watching Fox News, cnn,whatever, that is heart shaping
habit number two.
Every single one of us haverhythms, liturgies, a personal
liturgy.
That's shaping our heart, whichis shaping our loves.
And so, in this season ofuncertainty, of deconstruction,

(01:00:29):
we just need to be brutallyhonest.
What are our habits, how arethey shaping our hearts?
And if you are a follower ofChrist, in a season of
uncertainty, sure, ask yourquestions.
As we mentioned before, like,christianity is a thinking man's
religion, but also be brutallyhonest.
What are your habits and howare they shaping your habits?

Speaker 3 (01:00:51):
Boy, you've convicted me.
Every morning I've got a habitof going straight to Ken Ham's
insult for the day.
Oh boy, it's daily insult.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
Yeah, friends, I have one final bit of advice for you
, octopus, powerful, powerful.
Go on YouTube and just look upoctopus videos.
It's amazing.
Watch those octopi, watch themoctopi until I come watch them

(01:01:24):
take all sorts of differentshapes that emulate the scenery
around them in the ocean.
Watch them change color.
How many hearts do they haveinstantly?
I don't know I think it's threewatch.
Watch them pulsate with lightthat vibrates across their
bodies and tell me that there isnot a god of design and of

(01:01:47):
order and of intentionality thenbatter them and then put them
with marinara sauce.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
That's where you were going, and then tell me there's
not a God.

Speaker 3 (01:01:56):
I was just going to get a pet octopus.
A pet octopus.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
That'll draw a crowd right.
Can you imagine an octopustaking the form of Ray?
That'd be funny.
Right size.

Speaker 4 (01:02:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
But, friends, look, god is real.
Remember what Scripture says 2Timothy 4, 3-4,.
For the time will come whenthey will not endure sound
doctrine but according to theirown desires, because they have
itching ears, they will heap upfor themselves teachers and they
will turn their ears away fromthe truth and be turned aside to
fables.
Doubt your doubts, because whenyou examine them against the

(01:02:31):
backdrop of God's ultimatereality, they are fables.
He's the prime reality.
Colossians 2.8,.
Beware lest anyone cheat youthrough philosophy and empty
deceit, according to thetradition of men, according to
the basic principles of theworld and not according to
Christ.
Turn to him, let him transformyou, and I love these words by

(01:02:54):
Votie Bauckham.
The modern deconstructionmovement is not about
discovering truth, it's aboutjustifying rebellion.
There you have it, friends.
Don't forget the scientificfacts in the Bible book Living
Waters Mugged Evidence, studyBible Living Waters TV all at
livingwaterscom.
Remember the podcast YouTubechannel.
Join us there.
Podcast at livingwaterscom.
Remember the podcast YouTubechannel.
Join us there.

(01:03:15):
Podcast at livingwaterscom.
With your thoughts and insultstoward my beloved friends, mark,
don't throw paper across thetable, it's your paper.
Thank you for joining us,friends.
We'll see you here next time onthe Living Waters podcast Sound
like a sick chicken.
Bark, bark, we're raisedchickens have no idea what

(01:03:38):
they're doing.