Ep. 348 - Exploring Healthy Biblical Community

Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar dive deep into the heart of what the church is meant to be—a community of believers called to love one another. In our modern age, this calling is often lost, with church being reduced to a building or a weekly event rather than a gospel-centered community. The guys highlight the loneliness epidemic plaguing our culture, noting that no other community can fill the void we feel except the one we were created for: God’s family. From Genesis 2:18 to the Trinity itself, we see that we were made for relationship. Yet even among churchgoers, loneliness persists. The early church, as seen in Acts, lived out their faith daily in fellowship, service, and mutual support—something far deeper than simply attending on Sundays.

Humility and authenticity are crucial to a healthy biblical community. Church isn’t a performance but a place to be known and loved. Biblical accountability plays a key role—it means helping each other grow into Christlikeness, not with judgment but with grace. True accountability is self-initiated and rooted in love. Ray emphasizes the importance of vision and evangelism in unifying the church, sharing how physically building a church brought people together and how spiritually building the body of Christ does the same.

The guys talk about how discipleship is more than reading a book—it’s inviting people into your life. Jesus called us to make disciples, not converts. Isolation is dangerous; the enemy targets those who are alone. Your spiritual health is directly tied to your spiritual circle. Believers should be both discipled and discipling. They challenge the older generation to stop criticizing younger ones and instead invest in them. Real discipleship is relational and transformational—it takes time and presence.

They also touch on church discipline, noting it should be redemptive, not punitive. Accountability and restoration are key to a strong gospel community. Forgiveness is another hallmark—when we are hurt by the church, we are still called to extend grace and seek reconciliation. The gospel binds together people who might otherwise be enemies, creating a radically diverse and unified body. The apostles urged unity because the church is made up of natural enemies who now love each other because of Christ. There’s no such thing as a healthy, isolated Christian. Assembling together stirs up love and good works. Whether it's opening your home or speaking truth into someone's life, the call remains: step into the biblical community and live out the gospel together.

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Visit the Living Waters website to learn more and to access helpful resources!
You can find helpful counseling resources at biblicalcounseling.com.
Check out The Evidence Study Bible and the Basic Training Course.

You can connect with us at [e-mail]. We're thankful for your input!
Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
When you're kind of isolated by yourself, you have
no plan and you think that I'man island onto myself.
You're just being teed up forthe enemy.
It's easy to grab the one who'swandering by themselves.
The enemy doesn't come alongnecessarily and say all right,
here's 30 sheep that are overhere, let's just go for one of
them.
When there's one over here byhimself, he's going to look for

(00:22):
the weakest one.
Are you hitting for a Spurgeonquote?
When there's one over here byhimself, he's going to look for
the weakest one.
Are you hitting for a Spurgeonquote?
Well, some Christians try to goto heaven alone, in solitude,
but believers are not comparedto bears or lions or other
animals that wander alone.
Spurgeon went on to say thosewho belong to Christ are sheep,
in this respect that they loveto get together.
Sheep go in flocks, and so doGod's people.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
I just stole that from Ray, isn't that cool?
You stole that from Spurgeon.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Proverbs 18.1,.
Whoever isolates himself, seekshis own desire.
He breaks out against all soundjudgment.
So your spiritual strength istied in your spiritual circle.
Your spiritual strength is tiedin your spiritual circle.
Who are you hanging out withDiscipleship?

Speaker 3 (01:17):
it's so important you should be discipling and get
discipled at all times.
Memories La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la Gosh,
it's terrible.
You know what's ironic.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
You'll sing it.
Where did Mark?

Speaker 3 (01:32):
go Under the table.

Speaker 4 (01:35):
Dear first-time listener, it gets better, I
promise.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yeah, you know what's ironic is okay, I've probably
heard that song, I gotta say atleast a thousand, two thousand
times.
I've never heard that versionof it.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
Okay, but've probably heard that song I've got to say
at least a thousand, twothousand times.
I've never heard that versionof it.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
Okay, but the reason I heard that song so much I
think I mentioned before.
I had a fourth grade teachernamed Mrs Berry who married a
Russian guy and I think thatsong's originally Russian.
I mean, she would play thatsong like daily and memories,
but here's the ironic thing thatis the only word I remember
from the entire song word Iremember from the entire song

(02:06):
you just tune out after thatmemories and the rest of guys.
Look, I don't know about you,oscar, you're still well, you're
younger than us, but my memoryis going.
I mean you said that before,but it's you just said that.
I probably did, but it's one ofthose things that you hear
older people talk about and thenyou realize, okay, I'm on the

(02:28):
brink of 50 now.
That's old Mark, you're 53-ish.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
Ew.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
Ray 90.
110.
But man, it really does happen.
In fact, I was just shockedbefore we started because we
were talking about a joke that Ikind of taught Ray and I threw
it out there and Ray, youremembered it.
Yes, of course I did.
Oh, you have a good memory, Ray, Very sharp memory, Very sharp.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
You know the good thing about memories losing, it
is you forget your problems.
What are my problems?
Yeah, that helps.

Speaker 4 (03:00):
I think I've been struggling lately with
short-term memory loss and Ithink I've been struggling
lately with short-term memoryloss.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
That's the one I've used from the pulpit.
A lot Thanks to Easy.
That's the joke I taught Ray,yeah it was wonderful.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
But seriously, though , what is it Like?
Rachel and I freak out all thetime because we'll go to say
something that we had in ourminds and it's gone, gone, it's
gone, gone, it's gone.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
You've got to go back to the area you were standing
in to bring it back.

Speaker 3 (03:26):
Is that?

Speaker 2 (03:26):
serious.

Speaker 4 (03:27):
Yeah, seriously.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
So if you're standing over in this area by the
television, looking at the TV,and Sue comes over to me and
says, oh, I was going to saysomething.
I said, well, just go back andstand there for a minute, and
she does, and that provokes thememory to come back.

Speaker 3 (03:39):
Seriously, that's what I use Speaking of memory
loss.
So, ray, do you ever like ifyou were trying to remember
something you had mentioned inbed?
Do you ever go back and getinto the hole in the bed?
The hole.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
To remember.
I stay in the hole.

Speaker 4 (03:52):
The hole in the bed.
You stay in the hole.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
That sounds like a sitcom intro.
It takes me 20 minutes to getout each morning.

Speaker 3 (04:00):
How big is the ladder that you use?

Speaker 2 (04:02):
Speaking of memories, Tenny and I were in the
boardroom this morning and Oscarputs his head in and said
somebody in the ministry ispossessed by an owl, and Tenny
says who and he seriously fellfor it and I said I'm going to.

Speaker 3 (04:20):
Oh, that's so good.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
Seriously, you know that, Oscar.

Speaker 4 (04:23):
And then I slowly started backing away from him.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
I'm going to use that one.

Speaker 3 (04:29):
Oh, that's so good, mark.
Yeah, never mind.

Speaker 4 (04:35):
You've done enough.

Speaker 3 (04:37):
So it gets.
Ray, you're ahead of us.
It gets worse.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
Oh yes absolutely no, please don't tell me it gets
worse.
No old age is like permanentjet lag.
Get ready for it, and if itwasn't, for the gospel, that'd
be terrible, oh so.

Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, is that why you tan your watch around?
Yep, got to tan my watch around, I've done that for my whole
life.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
I haven't had my whole life.
Well, explain it.
Well, someone asked me to dosomething.

Speaker 1 (05:01):
Anyway, it's easy.
Do you have anything else?
No, no, seriously, I cared forlike the first second and a half
.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
It just makes me sick , mark.
I call up and say Mark, I'vegot something important to tell
you.
And I go on for about fiveminutes and he says oh, I'm back
now.

Speaker 1 (05:14):
What was that?
No, the best is when I used totravel with Ray.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
We're hanging out inside the.
I'm having trouble fallingasleep.

Speaker 3 (05:27):
Mark, tell me your testimony.
It works.
You know, I was violently angrywith Oscar and Mark for a long
time because until the iWatchera Apple Watch, whatever they
call it stupid thing you guysdidn't wear watches.

Speaker 4 (05:37):
What in the world?
I wore a watch.
You did Uh-huh.
Maybe it was just Mark who waswicked.

Speaker 3 (05:43):
How could you not?
I really don't understandpeople who don't wear watches
they couldn't have fooled one.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
Because oh yeah, because I was poor and humble
and I gave my money.

Speaker 3 (05:50):
Don't give me your phone excuse the time is right
no, I don't need to pull it outof my pocket, to be honest,
because you guys don't careabout time no, it's just part of
the culture.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
I mean, we've always had watches, no, but they didn't
need it previous generationsdidn't have watches.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
Rachel doesn't really wear a watch.
She doesn't.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
It makes me mad, well , she doesn't need to, because
you wear one.

Speaker 4 (06:07):
Yeah, that's true.
To be honest, though, my wifegot me a Hamilton Ventura for my
30th birthday.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
It's one of my favorite watches but I didn't
wear it for the time.
I wore it because it looked,you know there are those
celebrities that collect.

Speaker 3 (06:23):
I mean, you know, there's a million, $2 million.

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Oh yeah, ray wanted a $12 million watch.
Yeah, a $12 million watch.
Yeah, I asked for it.
When I retire, $12 millionwatch.
Imagine if someone amputateyour hand to get it Seriously
that's crazy, but honestly, thiswatch here that I've been.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
This is the third one I've gotten.
That's the exact same one,because I love it so much Did.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
I ever tell you guys about my.
It's gotten a good word.
What's that?
It's just culture, isn't itGotten my English?

Speaker 4 (06:50):
teacher would have said my.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
English teacher would put it in the same category as
ain't.
No gotten's a word, Ain't's aword now too.

Speaker 4 (06:56):
Hey Siri, define the word gotten.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
Ain't a word.
Siri's our friend.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
It's a very American, a gotten Gotten.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
Yeah, oh, so you cut her off, come to have or hold,
yeah, get.
Well, whatever, it's a word.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
What did you say?
Oscar Ain't a word.
Oh, it says, north is a word aswell, ain't a?

Speaker 3 (07:13):
word it says North American, it's a North American
word.

Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yeah, that's what it is, because they're cultured.

Speaker 4 (07:21):
Side note did I ever tell you about my Rolex?
You think I'm?

Speaker 2 (07:26):
joking, this is real.
You just told us before Memoryloss.

Speaker 4 (07:30):
True story.
I used to work before.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
Why do you say true story when you're going to tell
us a story?
Most of the time my storiesaren't true Because you usually
lie Like the owl.
The owl is not a true story,untrue story, no.

Speaker 4 (07:49):
So I you know, way before getting into ministry I
worked in finance and I workedfor an organization where, if
you were the top producer,producer for the year, you got a
Rolex watch as a gift, as likea congratulatory gift.
And I got it one year.
Uh well, at this organizationwe also used to play basketball
all the time.
On our lunches we would go liketo a outdoor park and we play.
And so we went to this park, Iput my watch down and we started
playing, and then we, likejumped in the pool to cool off

(08:11):
and went back to the office.
I was pulling into the officeand I was like my watch, and so
I turned around and went backover there and it was already
gone.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
Oh, you should have left a camera there.
All right, oscar, confession.
It was me, it was you it waseasy.

Speaker 4 (08:25):
Back when I was a gangster yelling all the time,
it was a Rolex.
It was a Rolex.
Yeah.
What was it worth, oscar?
It was a Submariner at thattime, somewhere between $5,000
and $10,000.
No, it was not, and it was agift.
I didn mad, I would have soldit.
I would have fired you, dude.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
I would have fired you so quick?
How come you're not depressedfor the rest of your life?

Speaker 3 (08:48):
I mean just to watch.
Oscar's not a materialistic guy, he's humble.
Yeah, all right, friends, timefor a.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
I need prayer.
Huh, I've got that songMemories going around in my head
, Memories.

Speaker 3 (09:02):
It was from that play Cats, remember?
No Cats.
Mark likes cats.

Speaker 4 (09:06):
Remember that play.

Speaker 3 (09:07):
They dress up like cats and stuff.
Yeah, it's horrible.

Speaker 2 (09:09):
It's one of the longest running ever yeah.

Speaker 4 (09:14):
It had nine lives.
It's not perfect that wasoriginal.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
Oh wow, Usually I'm looking for a fast forward
button when you begin to speak,but that was actually pretty
good.

Speaker 2 (09:24):
I look for a mute when you speak.

Speaker 3 (09:26):
All right friends, time for a cool, classy comment.
This is from Sienna Martin.
Hi, my name is Sienna Martinand I'm from Southern Indiana.
I've absolutely loved thepodcast.
It's been so encouraging,thought provoking and convincing
.
I love to listen to the podcastwhile I'm at work and today I
listened to episode 21,.
Pride is More Dangerous Thanyou Think.

(09:50):
It made me realize that thereason I don't tell people about
the gospel is because I'mafraid of what they'll be
thinking of me.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
I'm proud of the episode.

Speaker 3 (09:56):
I would love it if y'all yes, keep the y'alls
coming if y'all would pray forme in that area.
God bless y'all and may hecontinue to use you to
accomplish his will.
Praise God.
I love it when people getconviction from what we share
and when it leads to sharing thegospel in particular.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
That word, conviction , is sort of a Christianity word
, isn't it?

Speaker 4 (10:20):
Con with it's not normally used in secular.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
It doesn't mean to be arrested by the police,
convicted.

Speaker 3 (10:25):
Ray, how come you've never done that with that word?
Con-with-viction, vigor, yeah,no, that's a good point, but
yeah, no, I think I hear it insecular ways, but not as much as
we use it.

Speaker 4 (10:38):
It's a good podcast episode if we do it on
conviction, yeah, it means guilt, doesn't it?

Speaker 2 (10:42):
The knowledge of guilt, yeah I feel guilty, yeah,
who cares?
All right friends.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
You learned it here.

Speaker 3 (10:52):
And now a radically revolutionary resource.
This podcast is brought to youby the Ten Commandments Treasure
Chest.
Okay, I'm excited about this,me too.
This is show and tell, by theway, because we're bringing them
out now.
Okay, so ray, we have the babyone here.
This is the baby one.
Listener, real quick listener.

Speaker 4 (11:11):
Uh, if you're listening on podcast platform,
you should know that the reasonwhy we say show and tell is
because you can watch us onvideo as well.
Go to livingwaterstv, it's ourstreaming platform.
You get a couple days for freeand you can see what it's like
to watch the podcast, not justlisten to it.

Speaker 3 (11:27):
Or go to the YouTube channel.
Don't forget the YouTubechannel.
Which is what is it?
Mark?
The Living Waters PodcastYouTube channel.
Check it out.

Speaker 2 (11:34):
So people have got to use their imaginations that are
listening to this.

Speaker 3 (11:37):
Is this even available yet?

Speaker 2 (11:39):
It's kind of available just today.

Speaker 3 (11:41):
Who gave you the idea , Ray?
I think you might have.
What do you mean?
Might have I talked about?

Speaker 2 (11:45):
gold.
I've got short-term memory loss.

Speaker 3 (11:47):
That's what it is yeah, because we were talking
about the treasure chest.
They have the Ten Commandmentcoins, which are silver, and I
said, hey, make them in gold.
Yep, right, yep.
And Ray went quiet for likethree seconds.

Speaker 4 (11:57):
I'm like oh no.

Speaker 3 (11:58):
I know what's going to happen, so tell us what's
this Ray?

Speaker 2 (12:01):
This is really, I just love the look of these.
In fact, I think that theministry should all dress as
pirates, permanently Livingpirates.
It looks like it's a piratechest, but it's very, very
classy.
There's no hairs on it.

Speaker 3 (12:16):
Why do I feel like I'm on CV?
It's not a hairy chest.

Speaker 4 (12:20):
You should make a hairy chest version.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, six foot six, put fur on one of these Six foot
six hairy chest.

Speaker 3 (12:27):
I feel like I'm on QVC right now.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
They really are antique.
There's an antique beauty tothem.

Speaker 3 (12:36):
Yeah, so these are filled with the gold ones, gold
coins which are more expensiveand you give them to people you
love especially.
Yeah, For the people you hateyou get the other ones you also
notice.

Speaker 4 (12:47):
This is the Ray Comfort size.
Yeah, compared to the other two, this Ray sleeps in this.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
It's got a hole in it , it comes with a bobble head,
yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:55):
And then this one, ray.
What's this one right?

Speaker 2 (12:58):
This is the standard that has 300 aluminum coins in
it.
And the good thing about thisis that it just gives you your
own treasure chest of your coinsand you can see when you're
running out and you can get more.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
But Ray wasn't content with 300 and 500.
Ray had to come out with thethousand.
This is the deluxe.

Speaker 2 (13:18):
This holds a thousand coins.

Speaker 4 (13:22):
It takes someone intelligent to open it.
Oh, you can do that, yes.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
So that has a thousand unlimited coins the.
Ten Commandments on one side,the Gospel on the other, and
they're so easy to give outbecause you just say to someone
here's a coin with the TenCommandments on it.
How many do you think you'vekept?

Speaker 3 (13:40):
or broken Kids love them.
So check them out, friends.
There they are, yeah, but getthem, uh, because you can give
the gospel out, ray.
Seriously, this is one of themost brilliant things you can
ever come up with.
Did you come up with it?
Pride?

Speaker 2 (13:55):
that's horrible thing to say.
Yeah is, you were you born withthat face unfortunately.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
All right, don't forget that.
You've got the whatever they'recalled, just treasure chests.
You'll see them online LivingWaters, magna Adventist Study
Bible, living Waters TV, all atlivingwaterscom.
What are you doing, ray?
Look how protective he isIdolatry.
All right, don't forget thepodcast YouTube channel, like I
said.
Very good friends.
All right, don't forget thepodcast YouTube channel, like I

(14:24):
said.
Very good friends.
All right.
Today we are talking aboutexploring healthy biblical
community.
Community Com, community yeah,healthy biblical community.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
Can you better explain what we're talking about
?
Yeah, because when I first sawthis, I thought what are we
talking about here?

Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yeah Well, the body of Christ, the church, is a
community.
It's made up of individualsthat are called to be
accountable to one another,called to love one another,
called to pray for one another,called to serve one another,
called to proclaim the gospeltogether.
Another called to serve oneanother, called to proclaim the

(15:10):
gospel together.
And we live in an era wherethis has seriously become just a
lost virtue, if I could call itthat.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
Can I say something here?
The church is hidden from theworld, it would seem.
You ask most secular peoplewhat's the church?
They really don't know that.
It's the community of believersaround the world.
The foundation of God stands,sure, having this seal.
The Lord knows them that arehis, and so the true believers
are those who are trusting inJesus, despite their so-called

(15:36):
denomination.

Speaker 3 (15:38):
Right, yeah, and I think that for most people, they
hear the word church or thinkabout church and they're
immediately going to thebuilding.
They're going to just.
You know, I go to a church.
You know, rather than seeing,that the church is the community
of God's people, that it's notjust a place.
Of course, you can use the wordchurch to describe the place

(16:00):
where the saints gather, butultimately it is the people of
God.

Speaker 4 (16:05):
We are the church 100%, and I think this is
actually a space in which thechurch could thrive in reaching
the loss, because there is aloneliness epidemic in the world
today.
50% of US adults report livinga lonely life.
Loneliness increases your riskof premature death by 29%.

(16:29):
You have a higher risk of heartdisease, suicide or falling
down stairs.
Well, that, and heart disease,stroke, dementia, depression all
of them linked to loneliness.
And here's the reality is thatwe know, like it's written on
our hearts, we are literallydying for a community, but we
are trying, as a culture, tofill the void with substitute

(16:51):
communities, with gyms that havea community with gaming, online
communities and politics andonline tribes.
But the reality is, none ofthese communities will satisfy,
because none of thesecommunities are the ones you
were made for.
We're in this cultural momentwhere loneliness is as deadly as

(17:11):
smoking a pack of cigarettes.
I mean, the surgeon general isliterally calling it an epidemic
.
And here's what's crazy, too,is that we are more digitally
connected than we ever have beenin history.

Speaker 2 (17:26):
That's the irony, isn't it?

Speaker 4 (17:27):
That's exactly right.
These alternative communitieswill never satisfy us because we
were made for something else.
We were made for God's family.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
You know, oscar, as you were saying that, I was
thinking back to the whole COVIDshutdown and I think it was
really demonstrated that socialmedia is not going to cure the
loneliness issue.
Because everyone had it at home.
Still, everyone was locked upand you had access to internet.
I mean, that didn't get shutdown, but, man, that became like

(17:56):
one of the big things thatthose who were opposed to the
shutdowns were talking about,like the mental health crisis
because of isolation.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, that's usually what happens with solitary,
isn't it?
Oh, right they just go crazybecause we've been designed to
be in community.
And then you put them insolitary confinement and there's
no windows and you can't seebirds, you can't hear people.
You just go insane.

Speaker 3 (18:18):
Yeah, we weren't designed for that.
It goes back to Genesis 2.18,where God said it is not good
that man should be alone.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
He's talking about women, or in general?
Yeah, well.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
I think.
I mean, obviously we know itled to him receiving a wife, but
I think it is a generalprinciple that man is not
designed to be alone.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
I couldn't stand doing this podcast by myself.

Speaker 3 (18:40):
I'd love to imagine Ray trying to play all our parts
.
I love to imagine Ray trying toplay all our parts, but this
goes even further, back beyondGod, seeing that it's not good
that man should be alone.
It's because God exists incommunity, right the Trinity,
and we were made in His image.
Made in His image, and so wewere designed to have community

(19:08):
and to have that.
But let me ask you guys thiswhoever wants to chime in on
this?
However, there is still aproblem in that those who are a
part of the church still, whenwe look at statistics, still
declare loneliness.
Why do you guys think that is,yeah, like being in a.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
You're saying like being in a crowd of people and
they're still lonely, yeah.
So in other words, sometimeswe'll think that is yeah, like
being in a.
You're saying like being in acrowd of people and they're
still lonely, yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
So in other words, sometimes we'll think, okay,
well, those that are outside thechurch, we can understand their
loneliness.
They don't.
They're not a part of?

Speaker 1 (19:31):
That's a good question.
Let me take a crack at that.
I think that there's someself-preservation that's
attached, right.
I think that a lot of peoplethat go to church have really
joined a club that maybe they'renot welcomed or invited or part
of something inside the world.
But if you come to church, itdoesn't matter who you are or

(19:52):
what you look like or yourquirks or your craziness.
You're welcome here.
So they come and churchesbecome kind of a fun club
instead of a revealing club.
This is what I'm going throughand Instagram and social media.
There's this self-preservationthat's attached to that and
we're trying to act like we'resomebody that we're not in the
midst of it.
We don't post terrible picturesof us.

(20:13):
We take 100 pictures of us.
My wife goes through them andsays you can post that one.
In fact one time my wife posteda photo on her Instagram and
she's all, isn't it great.
And I looked at it.
She looked beautiful in it.
I was cut off from the eyes up,so you couldn't see it, she
wasn't wrong.
That's to give you some empathyfor me that would be funny, but

(20:37):
that's kind of the way we focusin on us and we want people to
think maybe a certain way aboutus.
And there's a danger.
Part of that Humility is let metell you about myself, and then
you don't know how thatperson's going to act and
respond.
And that's dangerous, becauseall you've created is a culture
club.

(20:57):
Karma, karma, karma, chameleonright, a culture club.

Speaker 3 (20:59):
Karma, karma, karma, karma, chameleon Come a
chameleon, you come and go.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
You come and go, I don't think our churches, our
modern churches, our culturalmodern churches, are designed
for community.
I'm serious here.
You go to a local church andsomeone says I go to your church
.
Say, can you turn around andlet me see the back of your head
?
So I say if I'd recognize you,Because that's all you see, the
back of a couple hundredpeople's heads and then they
have like a three-minute breakwhere everyone has to kiss each
other and welcome to the churchand have little hugs and it's

(21:31):
not any depth.
And that's why I really likehouse churches and that's why
I've mentioned before that whenI was a brand-new Christian, I
was in a church and I realizedthis that we weren't having
community in our church meetingsand I tried to move these pews
to face each other by myself,these long, big pews, so we'd
all be facing each other, so theperson ministering would have
people here and people behindthem in front of them.

Speaker 3 (21:53):
You know that's how the synagogues were designed
back in ancient times.
Remember, mark, when we went toIsrael, they would show us
ancient synagogues and they weredesigned that way they were,
where everyone could see eachother.

Speaker 4 (22:05):
Yeah, I love what you're getting at, mark, because
it points out that the problemisn't always in the way that the
churches, the local churches,are designed, though.
Many local churches aredesigned to entertain, but we
have to be brutally honest,which is that we have a
consumeristic mindset.
We go to church and it's likeentertain me, justify my

(22:26):
prejudices, show me somethingworth remembering for this rest
of the week.
And so we show up late, halfwaythrough worship, we leave as
quickly as we can so we don'thave to deal with the traffic
getting out of the parking lot,and we go about our own way.
And when you look at the earlychurch, specifically in Acts,
when you look at church history,thinking of Joseph Tellerman's

(22:46):
book, the Church Was a Family.
Church community was not thisthing that was done for 45
minutes to two hours on a Sunday.
Church community was somethingthat you lived out in the
totality of your life.
It's something that happenedthroughout the week, at the
dinner table as you were raisingchildren.
It was this all-encompassingexperience.

(23:08):
And I say that recognizing thatit's almost ideological to
think that way, because it'shard to do that nowadays With
the invention of freeways.
We all live isolated lives.
We simply don't live near thepeople we find ourselves in
community with.
But the onus is on theChristian today to find a way to

(23:31):
live out a communal life in thecontext of gospel community.
Our hearts need it and thechurch needs it.
The church needs us to be incommunity.

Speaker 3 (23:44):
Right, yeah, and I think a lot of times there is
that perception of, well, I'mlonely man, I mean, church
stinks and I go to church, butthere's, you know, I don't feel
like I benefit or anything likethat.
But again, there's a mindset Igo to, rather than I'm a part of
, and it's honestly almost likewalking into a gym watching
people work out, going to thebasketball court looking at

(24:06):
people work out, and then youleave and you're like I don't
understand why I'm not gettingbuff why I'm not losing weight.

Speaker 4 (24:10):
Is this your memoir?
That's my experience.

Speaker 3 (24:13):
But you know what?
That's what I'm saying.
You're not participating.
You can go into a gym and walkout looking the same forever.
If you don't participate,that's really good.
That's really good.
What's that I mean?
You know it's not unusual forchurch services.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
You know, in areas where there's a lot of
persecution, that a service isnot just that hour service, that
when they're going to churchthey are there all day long.
Yeah, they come, they serve.
Everybody is coming together,they serve, they set up the
chairs, there's worship, there'sthe announcements, there's the

(24:46):
preaching, then there's themovement of the chairs to now
prepare time for a meal, to gettogether and to hang out and to
fellowship, and then there'safter that let's discuss what
was just discussed.
It's an all-encompassingenvironment where you are all in
and you're learning aboutpeople.
You're learning what's going oninside their lives.

(25:08):
I read Galatians 6 earliertoday.
It says bear one another'sburdens and so fulfill the law
of Christ.
And I saw this guy responding.
He said well, real friendscarry coffins, not just coffee
orders.
What can I get you?
We come and we bring thatStarbucks order.
We're being nice, we're beingoutgoing.
We're being friendly and what'shappening.
We have no idea what's going onin their lives and we don't

(25:31):
share what's going on in ourlives.
We dare not tell people that weare going through something
because we live thatpicture-perfect life of
Instagram.

Speaker 4 (25:39):
And if you were paying attention, you would know
not to bring that personStarbucks.

Speaker 3 (25:45):
Or a creamer no, a creamer for sure.
But you know, Mark, it justkind of reminded me of when you
and I pastored years ago, wherewe would have barbecues after
church in the courtyard and itgave people opportunity to
fellowship and to get into eachother's lives.
I mean, when we look at Acts,especially Acts chapter two, the
early church was constantlytogether.
Daily they were prayingtogether and preaching the

(26:09):
gospel together andparticipating in the life of the
body together.

Speaker 1 (26:14):
Can I comment on that barbecue idea.
I realize that after serviceeverybody is going out to eat,
everybody's spending the money,and I remember going to the
pastor and I said we should havelike a barbecue after the
services.
Now, usually what do we do,pastor, you need to change this,
you need to change that, youneed to change that.
The pastor already has hishands full of other things.

(26:34):
So I remember saying what Iwould like to do is I would like
to start a barbecue ministryhere at the church and I will do
the shopping.
I'll do whatever that needs toget done and let me try to raise
some guys up around me.
We'll work the barbecues and wedid like hamburgers and hot
dogs at first and then itevolved into like kebabs and
chicken and carne asada, tacos,quesadillas.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
man, let's do this.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
And so people had to spend their money anyways, and
so now they're spending at thebarbecue and it was like the
whole church just knew you soldthe barbecue, you made it a
business.

Speaker 2 (27:04):
We made it.

Speaker 1 (27:04):
We made it.
I have $2,400.
So we were there and now we'refellowshipping.
Didn't make very much money.
We are there fellowshipping,get inside of each other's lives
and then that carried over intothe home fellowship.

Speaker 3 (27:15):
Did you start the?

Speaker 1 (27:15):
barbecues.
No, I'm not going to answerthat, because you're going to
say you're a pray.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
Let's talk about daily fellowship.
Remember Eutychus, oh, the guywho fell out of the window At
night.
They had church right throughthe night.

Speaker 3 (27:28):
Oh right.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
That was the type of fellowship they had.
Of course, they had a greatpreacher.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
All was going on all night.
Put people to sleep UntilEutychus fell out of the window.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
If, you're going to go on and on as a preacher, make
sure you can raise the dead.

Speaker 4 (27:48):
Yeah, it's funny when you read Roman historians.
Their critique of the earlychurch was how much time they
spent with each other partyingand hanging out.
They just didn't understand.
They were onlookers, like what.
They're always together.
What's wrong with those people,which is a testament to what
God intended community to looklike.

Speaker 3 (28:02):
Yeah, for sure, yeah, and so I'd love for us to talk
about some of the marks ofhealthy biblical community.
We often talk aboutaccountability.
What does that look like, oscar?
When we talk aboutaccountability between believers
, I think to the unbeliever it'ssuch a foreign concept.

(28:23):
Like what do you meanaccountability?
Like bro, this is my life, I domy own thing, no one's allowed
to enter into my business.
You know, what does biblicalcommunity, as it relates to
accountability, look like?

Speaker 4 (28:35):
Yeah, mark was touching on it.
It's being, as Timothy Kellerwould say, it's being both known
and loved, and what he talksabout often is like, like so
many of us are afraid of beingknown because then you see my
deficiencies, my insecuritieslet's use a biblical word my sin
, and that's scary for so manypeople.

(28:56):
But to be in a community thatholds you accountable is to know
your sins, to know yourweakness, to know what you're
prone to and to love you anyway,which is similar to the kind of
Christ-like love that we findin the gospel.
And so accountability isvulnerability, making yourself
known to your neighbor and thenasking them to come alongside

(29:18):
you and keep in mind, they don'tcome alongside you so that you
can be a more moral person.
They don't come alongside youso that you can be a more moral
person.
They don't come alongside youso that you can be a better
father.
They don't come alongside youso that you can be a better
husband.
You can be a better father, anda better husband by father,
following self-help guides andbooks.
Ultimately, the, the scripturesremind us that we are all

(29:40):
disciples of jesus and our aimas Christians is to become more
like the one we adore, ourSavior Jesus Himself, and so
accountability is ultimatelypulling each other towards the
goal of being Christ-like.

(30:01):
I imagine it's similar tosports If you're on a
professional basketball team,you hold each other accountable
to the work you're putting in,because you're trying to reach
one goal a championship For theChristian.
The goal is Christlikeness, andwe are pulling each other
towards that.

Speaker 1 (30:19):
Can I just ask a question?
I imagine somebody listening tothis and just saying great, how
do I take that step?
How do I take that step towardsthat group or that person and
just confess?
Do I start with confessionsomething that I've done?
Then maybe he'll confesssomething Like where do we?

Speaker 3 (30:35):
go.
Yeah, I'm so glad you broughtthat up, Mark, because there is
that misunderstanding ofaccountability.
It's almost like we'reexpecting someone to come up to
us and say how are you doing?
What's going on in your life?
Listen, accountability, inorder for it to really succeed
and be truly effective, has tobe self-initiated and voluntary.
In other words, we are the oneswho need to seek out

(30:57):
accountability.
If you want friends, you mustfirst be friendly.
That's right.
Like the proverb says, we needto ourselves say look, why do I
want accountability?
Because I want to be conformedmore into the image of Christ.
So I need my brothers andsisters.
Two are better than one, I mean, scripture's clear on that I
need.
And so we open our lives up.
We say, because how can someoneknow what's really going on in

(31:18):
my heart?
And I could even lie and justmake stuff up.
But if I want accountability,it's like we talked about
recently with love.
Right, love fulfills the lawbecause it has the right motive.
So when I want to walk withChrist and honor God, then my
motive for accountability isgoing to be in the right place

(31:38):
and then I'm going to be open,I'm going to share my life
because I want to be.
It's not like, let me check offmy accountability box, it's I
need help because I want to be.
It's not like, let me check offmy accountability box.
It's I need help because I wantto be more like Christ.
So, brother, here's what Istruggle with.
Here are my shortcomings.
I need you to hit me up on this, I need you to pray for me on
this, and that's when it becomeseffective.
Mark, I want you in a minute,to talk about discipleship.
So get your wheels turning.

(31:59):
But, ray, I know the thing thatfrustrates you more than
anything is Tickle.
Yeah, don't even talk about it,don't even talk about it.
Panic.
I think that's a part of thechurch actually.

Speaker 4 (32:10):
Tickling.
Yeah, it's in first editions.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
I'm there.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
But, ray, I know one of the things that frustrates
you most is all this stuff we'retalking about in church, and
yet it's a church that lacksevangelism, the proclamation of
the gospel.
Yeah, nothing builds unity orbrings unity to a church or
community like having vision.
By that I mean we're designedby God to create.
We weren't just designed.
God makes this image.
We don't do anything else.
We're designed by God to create.
And I remember years ago we hada building program.
Our church grew this is back inNew Zealand.
Our church grew to about 200,300, and we needed a bigger
building and so we started on abuilding program and it was

(32:54):
great.
We designed the building and weworked together to build the
building and that brought out somany people's creativity that
we didn't know they had.
One guy could just lay outrocks in a garden.
It was just beautiful the wayhe did it, because that was his
gifting and that gave us a senseof community.
We came together on Saturdaysand worked all Saturday together
and got to know each otherrather than just being in church

(33:14):
meeting.
So was that?

Speaker 3 (33:17):
by the way, was that Pastor Barton's?

Speaker 2 (33:19):
church no it wasn't.
Hallelujah, hallelujah.

Speaker 3 (33:26):
I've never forgotten that it was English, yeah, but
he would say hallelujah,hallelujah and Ray told me about
him and then we went to NewZealand and I spoke in his
church and he kept doing it.

Speaker 4 (33:33):
Why are you preaching , no like when you know.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
He got up to the pulpit.
We're glad you're here today.
He was introducing me.
Hallelujah, it was so cool.
He was a tender man.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
Yeah, when someone says something slightly wrong,
you just that's all you hear.
I had a pastor that used tojust say Jerusalem all the time.
He did Jerusalem.
No, no, no.
Every time he said it, I feltlike no.

Speaker 3 (33:53):
Yeah, ken Ham says Jerusalem.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
Okay.
So building programs, they aregood, but we should approach
them carefully.
Peter wanted to start abuilding program on the Mount of
Transfiguration.
He says let's build tabernacles.
And then it says in Scripturefor he knew not what he was
saying.
And so it's very important, Ifyou're going to start a building
program, don't get yourselfinto financial difficulty,

(34:18):
because we remember the wordmortgage means death grip.
And I've seen churches go intoterrible, terrible debt, have a
church split and they couldn'tpay off the mortgage and it was
just horrific.
So what we really need asChristians is to have a real
vision for the church.
Build the church that is, seekand save that which is lost and

(34:39):
bring them back to be part ofthat community, and that will
bring a sense of unity andpurpose in our lives as
Christians.

Speaker 3 (34:45):
Amen.
I love what Mark talked aboutearlier in terms of Thank you.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
The only thing I've ever heard Mark say that was
useful.
So I want to talk about what.

Speaker 3 (34:53):
Mark talked about that?
The church.
Are you hungry, the bully?
But the church did.
They stayed together and didthings together.
And recently I was asking myson, luke, about doing something
and he goes.
Oh yeah, sorry.
After church on Sunday we'regoing to go door to door with
the young adults crew.
Oh wow.
I'm like yes, it just thrilledmy heart.

(35:15):
They go to church service andthen afterwards they're going to
go knock on doors and share thegospel.

Speaker 2 (35:18):
It's created in your image.

Speaker 3 (35:20):
Yeah, because you're the maniac dog.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
You were amazing.
What did you do?
A thousand doors around yourchurch In our neighborhood.

Speaker 3 (35:26):
yeah, we went all throughout.
It was such a sweet time.
Do you know?
It's biblical.
Yeah, mark and I are about tostart doing it.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
Behold I stand at the door and knock.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
Revelation 3.20.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
Don't you tickle me.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
You're so scared.
The idea is just to get you.
You scared them.
I am terrified.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
I'm getting close and I just don't actually do
anything I'm going all hot, I'mgoing all hot, I'm getting all
hot in here.

Speaker 3 (35:48):
So, mark, let's talk discipleship.
That's a part of a healthybiblical community.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
Yeah, I'm going to overlap some things that we've
talked about in the past.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
What does discipleship today look like?

Speaker 4 (36:10):
Well, compared to what it looked like in the first
century, or when the churchseems to have gotten it right.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
We want to make discipleship great again.
Well then, we kind of emulatesome things that were done
before.
Which was what?
It's not just going through abook together, it's not just
getting coffee with someone,it's living life with someone.
Right, I'm going to thismemorial service.
You got time to go with me.
Hey, I'm heading over to Costcoto pick up some things.
Why don't you cruise on overthere with me?
And there's these little weirdtime limits that are attached to

(36:34):
it, so it doesn't become sooverwhelming.
Remember, jesus didn't say togo into all the world and make
converts.
He said to go into all theworld to make disciples.
And if we put that to use tothe best of our ability without
pulling our hair out, we wouldsee that it's living life.

(36:58):
It's the good, it's the bad.
It's how the guy cuts you offand how you handle that.
It's maybe giving somebody elsea park job while you park way
over in the parking spot and youpark in a completely different
place, right.
Isolation is a lot like thedevil's lunchable.

(37:18):
If you would right that you'repreparing for him a meal because
you're completely left.
Remember those lunchables.
You have these little crackersand cheese and ham and turkey,
right, and you kind of eat it onthe go.
Idle time is the devil'sworkshop, when you're kind of
isolated by yourself, you haveno plan and you think that I'm

(37:38):
an island onto myself.
You're just being teed up forthe enemy.
It's easy to grab the one who'swandering by themselves.
The enemy doesn't come alongnecessarily and say, all right,
here's 30 sheep that are overhere, let's just go for one of
them.
When there's one over here byhimself, he's going to look for
the weakest one.
Are you hitting for a Spurgeonquote?

(37:59):
Well, some Christians try to goto heaven alone, in solitude,
but believers are not comparedto bears or lions or other
animals that wander alone.
Spurgeon went on to say thosewho belong to Christ are sheep
in this respect that they loveto get together.
Sheep go in flocks, and so doGod's people.
I just stole that from Ray,isn't?

Speaker 2 (38:21):
that cool.
You stole that from Spurgeon.

Speaker 1 (38:23):
Proverbs 18,.
Whoever isolates himself, seekshis own desire.
He breaks out against all soundjudgment.
Yeah, so your spiritualstrength is tied in your
spiritual circle.
Yeah, your spiritual strengthis tied in your spiritual circle
.
Who are you hanging out withDiscipleship?
It's so important you should bediscipling and get discipled at

(38:47):
all times.

Speaker 3 (38:47):
And you know there's a way to get discipled that is
outside the bounds of formaldiscipleship and that is being
intentional to glean.
You know, it's amazing, man,how much mindset affects things,
like just changing the channelin your mind and saying I'm
going to go into this right nowwith a different attitude.
You know, if you just go intotimes of fellowship and you're

(39:10):
just looking to gab and just,you know, talk and laugh, but if
you go in there saying I wantto learn something from my
brethren, that leads you to askquestions, that leads you to
take note when they voluntarilyjust share things from their own
life.
So I think we can put ourselvesin a place of being discipled
by just changing our mindset andapproaching it in a certain

(39:33):
mode, you know.

Speaker 4 (39:35):
I think, an important aspect of discipleship.
Well, one, two things.
First thing is, I hear so oftenthe older generation
complaining and criticizing GenZ and Gen Alpha, and whenever I
hear them complaining abouttheir laziness, about their lack
of interest in faith andwhatever the case, it always
bums me out because what you aredoing is you're unintentionally

(39:58):
projecting the reality thatyou're not interested in
participating and helping.
And that's fascinating becausethe next generation coming up
one.
There's an incredible movementamongst Gen Alpha and Gen Z,
bringing them back to the church.
They're starting to increasetheir church attendance more
than even my generation and yourguys' generation.

Speaker 2 (40:18):
This is in the UK.

Speaker 4 (40:20):
This is in the United States and in the UK.
But one of the things thatthey're most interested in is
discipleship, and I think whenwe talk about discipleship,
often what people hear is notdiscipleship.
They think about books andultimately, what that is is data
transfer.
Data transfer is notdiscipleship.
For me, to sit down with you onthe other side of a coffee

(40:41):
table and tell you here's thefive chapters I just read and
here's your big takeaways, nowgo and do it.
That is data transfer.
I can get that on the internet.
Discipleship is like beingkissed by the sun.
It takes time.
You need to be in the presenceof someone.
They need to see you doing lifewith your family, with your
children, in the workplace.

(41:03):
When they see your dispositionin all of these circumstances,
that is when discipleship startsto happen.
It's a slow process.
It's not transactional, it'stransformational.
We think about the rabbis.
They didn't show up and sayokay, guys, here's a didactic

(41:24):
communication about God's word.
They said come with me, followme, walk in my footsteps, sleep
where I sleep, eat where I eat,live where I live, and they
understood that right when Jesuscalled the disciples come
follow me, they understood.

Speaker 3 (41:40):
It wasn't just, oh, okay, we're going to go and just
kind of hang out right now.
You mean, like, devote ourlives to being with you and
learning from you, and yeah,that's huge, it was a come to
die.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
I'm really trying to think through what you're saying
there, because it's so profound.
Why is it that we're notgetting that today?
How is it?
I mean, was it the way it wassaid?
Is there something that's kindof missing from the scripture in
the midst of that?
But they understood that whenJesus called them, that there
was a call to be separated fromyour family.
Let the dead bury the dead and,though nobody else, come with

(42:16):
me, I will follow.
It's leaving your profession,it's leaving your life.
It's just everything, becauseI'm following you.
Your people are my people.
It's just, I'm all in and I'mnot going anywhere.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (42:31):
I mean, ray.
That's the call of Christ.
Right, if anyone comes after me, let him deny himself, take up
his cross and follow me.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
Absolutely.
And the genuine church is afellowship of true believers.
And there are some who arelonely because they're
disillusioned by the church.
But if you go to a genuinechurch and you approach someone
and show an interest in them,the love of God will radiate
from them to you and you'llbecome part of that fellowship
and you'll get to know goodfriends, true friends.
But what we don't realize is alot of churches got false

(42:59):
converts in them.
That's what Charles Spurgeonsaid Nobody can do as much
damage to the church of God asthe man who is within its walls
but not within its life.
Ooh, that's an.
Ooh, that's a good one Do itagain.

Speaker 4 (43:11):
Ooh and an ah.

Speaker 3 (43:12):
Do it again, that's a good one.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
No, no.
If it's worth saying once, it'sworth saying yeah, ray, yes,
you want it again.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
Nobody can do as much damage to the church of God as
the man who is within its wallsbut not within its life, man
that is.

Speaker 3 (43:26):
Yeah, he's got.
Where did he get these?

Speaker 2 (43:29):
things.
His wife, his wife.
He never said a word.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:32):
You know, I want us to touch on another aspect Oscar
, maybe you can speak to thisthat I think is often overlooked
for healthy biblical community,and that is the whole element
of correction and churchdiscipline, because there's just
this modern mindset of like,well, we don't want to offend
people, we don't want people tono longer come to the church and

(43:53):
so forth, but church disciplinewhen you look at Matthew 18, is
a big part of a healthybiblical community.

Speaker 4 (44:00):
Yeah, it goes back to what we were saying earlier,
which is the church is there forus to become more like Christ,
and I think that churchdiscipline has become a.
It's like this so many churchesare hesitant because they want
to come off as friendly, maybebecause they want the numbers.
But in addition to that, I'vebeen in a church discipline
situation and there are so manypeople who are friends with the

(44:22):
person who needs churchdiscipline who are like this
isn't right.
You shouldn't treat them thatway and listen.
One of the important aspects ofchurch discipline is not that
they would be disciplined andremoved.
Church discipline is a pleadingfor repentance.
The desire is to reorient themto gospel community, not to

(44:44):
remove them from gospelcommunity.
Ultimately, church disciplineis putting the decision in their
hands.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
If you continue going in this direction, I'm sorry
but you will prove to not be oneof us, and I think you also
just painted a good case forchurch membership, because a lot
of times you'll have thesenon-denominational churches that
don't have church membershipand when they're found out they
just go to another church wherethere is no oversight.

(45:11):
Amongst the sheep and theshepherds, these huge mega
churches, they have no ideawho's attending.
Now, there's nothing obviouslywrong with mega churches, but,
to Ray's point, there should besmall home churches within the
bigger picture of the church sowe know what's going on inside
of each other's lives.

Speaker 3 (45:26):
Yeah, I love that.
I mean, I think honestly thatis sort of the happy medium of
you know you havebecause it'sgood to have a church that has a
good-sized congregation.
You can do stuff in that regard.
You can mobilize financially,you're able to get behind
missions, you're able to dothings.
But I love, within even abigger church, to have those

(45:50):
home groups where they gathertogether and they're in each
other's lives regularly.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
I was at a very large church.
I was at Shane and Shane'schurch.
It was a huge church theBrothers the Watermark Church
right it's in Texas.
I was at Shannon Shane's church.
It was a huge church theBrothers the Watermark Church
right it's in Texas and I wasjust visiting, I was dropping by
and I sat inside of this area.
It's a huge church.
I think there's a Starbucksdown in the foyer, right, it's
like that big, and I remembergoing in and I sat down and
there was a gentleman that cameover to me and started to talk

(46:16):
to me and he says you're newhere and I'm like how?

Speaker 4 (46:20):
do you know that?

Speaker 1 (46:21):
And his response?
Well, because we're territorial, in where we sit typically.
And I sit in this area and Iknow the people that sit in this
area.
Get out of here Right and it wasreally neat and he wasn't
saying it in a bad way.
He's all I like to know whosits inside my area and I like

(46:44):
to see what they're up to.
And he started talking to meabout membership In order to be
a member at that church and Idon't know much about their
church, but in order to be amember at that church, it is
required for you to serve.
It's not just saying that's mychurch, no, where are you now
you're going to serve?
You have giftings.
Where are you going to use yourgiftings?

Speaker 2 (46:55):
And you did begin your conversation with dude what
a cool church.
It's like totally, ah, bruhtotally.

Speaker 3 (47:03):
Can I give another mark of a healthy church, yeah,
but first I do have to ask youone question Do you think it's
possible, because of that churchhaving a Starbucks, that it
could be apostate?
It's definitely apostate,there's no doubt about it.

Speaker 4 (47:14):
I looked right at Ray when he said it's Starbucks.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
Does it have a football field?

Speaker 4 (47:19):
Swimming pool.
Another aspect of healthygospel community is a community
that forgives.
And this is huge because I'mthinking about the person that's
listening.
That's like man.
I was a part of a community andI was hurt.
I was hurt by leadership.
I was hurt by that communityand let me just tell you, if
you're listening, I've been hurttoo.

(47:40):
I've been brutally.
My family and I have beenbrutally hurt by a church
community and I get that senseof being hesitant of stepping
back into community.
I can remember going to a newchurch and seeing Sit down in
the back.
Hiding.
Yeah, no, I can rememberrecently attending a new church
and being invited to a barbecueand seeing this beautiful

(48:02):
community and looking at it andgoing man, this is good gospel
community and I'm not ready forit.
But my next thought was that'snot healthy, that's not good.
I need to step into this, and abig conviction for me is
scripture, when Jesus talksabout us being slapped to turn
the other cheek.
It's important to recognizethat turn the other cheek.

(48:24):
Could you demonstrate, ray?

Speaker 2 (48:26):
The mic's gonna slap my face.

Speaker 4 (48:29):
Turning the other cheek can often be
misrepresented as though ifthey've slapped you, let them
slap you again.
But it's important to recognize.
The Jewish saying is if they'vehurt you.
When he says, turn the othercheek, what it's doing is saying
let them kiss you, becausethat's how you.
It was the handshake in Jewishculture.
In other words, what Jesusmeans by that is if someone

(48:52):
hurts you.
Our disposition should be canwe try to be friends again?
Can we seek forgiveness?
And then, when he says, prayfor your enemies.
Ultimately what he's doing ishe's saying I will good in the
lives of the people that havehurt me.
I want good for them, I desiregood in their lives.
And so if you've been hurt bychurch community, I feel you,

(49:15):
I've been there, but the Lorddesires to reconcile you back to
some community, maybe not thecommunity you were at prior, but
your heart, your soul, is stilldesperate for a kind of gospel
community.

Speaker 1 (49:27):
People throw away the baby with the bathwater in the
midst of that.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
Right, that's really annoying, and if you're afraid
of being slapped on the face,grow a beard.

Speaker 1 (49:35):
You know, jesus never said to follow my people.
He said to follow me.
So we need to know that we livein a frail society with fragile
people in a fallen world whomake fallen decisions, and it's
okay because you fall into thatsame category.
Community is where we come andwe reveal secrets to people and

(49:57):
then healing begins and if weconfess our sins, he's faithful
and just to forgive us of oursins and to cleanse us of all
unrighteousness.
We confess our sins to oneanother.
I'm going through this.
Will you pray for me?
And I like how we send outprayer requests all the time and
you don't hear a lot of things,what people are going through.
You know where it's realpersonal, but it's like, hey,

(50:18):
pray for my dad, he needs to getsaved and that's okay in a
bigger picture.
But your intimate, closerfriends should know where those
speed bumps inside your lifethat are slowing you down and
where you need that intimateprayer Amen.

Speaker 3 (50:30):
You know I was thinking about the role that
wisdom plays in good, healthy,biblical community.
But from this standpoint,oftentimes when we think of
wisdom, we think of it from thestandpoint of like.
God, give me an understandingof what to do right now in this
situation.
We don't often look at wisdomin the grand scheme of in what

(50:57):
way can I live to make me ahealthy believer who also
blesses others and functions inthe way that I should.
You know, to me, when we seekwisdom, it should be okay.
I'm going to be intentionalright now to figure out how I
can develop into a person whoreally gets into people's lives,
gets people into my life,serves others, become like.
You know that's what I'mtalking about, like that's

(51:18):
wisdom.
Wisdom says I'm going to plan.
I'm not going to just say this.
How often have we talked aboutthis?
Like you get an idea, a thought, you're stirred, you're
convicted, and then you wake upthe next morning and you're
thinking about.
You know how you're going to goplay basketball or work out in
the gym or go play golf.
We need to be wise to say, okay, I've been struck by this right

(51:46):
now, so what am I going to doto implement long-term change?
And we implement a plan andthen we begin to do it Because
this is nice, we're talkingabout this.
Yeah, healthy vocal community.

Speaker 4 (51:52):
Right, I don't remember saying that.
No, I heard you, I heard you go.

Speaker 3 (51:56):
But then the next day it's gone, it's just like it
evaporates, you know.
So we need to do that, and youknow, I'm glad, oscar, you
talked about forgiveness,because there's something that
has been labeled asself-protection, and we can
easily get into that when we'vebeen hurt, so good.

(52:17):
But real love and I'm talkingabout this outside the bounds of
abuse I'm not talking aboutdoing this when you're dealing
with an abusive person or achurch or so forth, but in a
situation where there's justbeen hurt and pain that's been
caused by others, our tendencyis to wrap our arms around
ourselves and protect ourselves.
So what that means is we areforegoing our call to keep

(52:37):
moving toward others in love,and a part of that can include
addressing the issue thatresulted in that hurt and pain.
But you're doing it with aspirit of a desire for true
reconciliation.
That's love.
Love keeps moving forward withopen arms, even though we've
been hurt, for the sake of God'sglory and the health of the
church and our love toward ourfellow believers and the

(53:00):
opposite, because I've man.

Speaker 4 (53:01):
I'm so glad you said that because I've seen it happen
where someone will go well, Iam not stepping into
reconciliation because I don'tfeel safe.
And when we self-preserve, whatwe do is we prioritize
ourselves over God's command topursue unity with one another.
And when we self-preserve, itleads to gossip, it leads to

(53:24):
divisiveness, it leads to theidea that they're the problem,
not me and man.
This is so antithetical to aswe read the New Testament
letters to each other like theapostles are urging each other
for unity.
They're absolutely urging, andthink about how.
I mean, if we think our problemsare hard in the church today,

(53:45):
things were radically harderback then.
I mean they had people frompolar opposite ends of the world
gathering together as a gospelcommunity.
And this is a calling on uswhich sort of just leads to
another point as well, which isthe church should be a radically
diverse place.
I don't mean diverse in likethe woke way of using that word.

(54:08):
I mean diverse in the way thatGod gathers all people to
himself, because I think oftenwhat we do is we feel
comfortable in churches thatconfirm and conform to our own
personal prejudices.
We go to churches with a ton ofpeople that look like us and
what ends up happening is thatchurch could look often like a

(54:28):
political rally or a social clubrather than God's people.
And I'm just saying like, ifyour church looks like a
Republican party rally or if itlooks like a BLM march, it's not
the way God intended for it tobe.
And the reality is this is likesome pastors.
They preach to draw thosepeople to themselves and they

(54:49):
think man, like God, is using me.
I'm growing my influence, I'mgrowing my following, but
ultimately, what does thescripture say?
You must decrease so that hemay increase.
Ultimately, the differencebetween a seeker-friendly church
and a church that likes to drawpeople in because of politics
is nothing.
It's absolutely nothing,because both of them are
tickling the ear of men andwomen.

(55:11):
I love this quote by DA Carson.

Speaker 3 (55:13):
Yeah right.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
Ross is going to tickle me now, because you said
that I love this quote by DACarson.

Speaker 4 (55:20):
He points out that the reason why the apostles
constantly exhorted the earlychurch to love one another is
because they were naturalenemies that were being
supernaturally united.
He says this the reason thereare so many exhortations in the
New Testament for Christians tolove other Christians is because

(55:41):
the church is not made up ofnatural friends.
It's made up of natural enemies.
What binds us together is notcommon education, common race,
common income levels, commonpolitics, common nationality,
common accents, common jobs oranything of that sort.
Christians come togetherbecause they have all been saved

(56:02):
by Jesus Christ and owe him acommon allegiance.
In this light, they are a bandof natural enemies who love one
another.
For.

Speaker 3 (56:12):
Jesus' sake, amen.
Oh, so good, oscar Ray.
I wanted you to address thisreal quickly because you're one
of the most forgiving people Iknow.
You to address this realquickly because you're one of
the most forgiving people I knowand, being a public figure,
you're constantly having arrowsshot at you.

Speaker 4 (56:28):
I'm sorry, he's a public minifigure, like a Lego.
Why?

Speaker 3 (56:32):
don't you do a bobblehead, Large arrows at the
minifigure?
But you, I mean, and it's notjust from unbelievers or
atheists.
There's friendly fire sometimeswhere other Christians will
come at you.
How do you walk in forgivenessand how would you encourage
others to do that?

Speaker 2 (56:47):
Yeah, what you do is you open your preach for 12
years surrounded by absolutelynasty people that want to spit
on you and throw things at youand say all terrible things and
even yell at you while you'releaving your car, never to come
back, and stuff like that.
So it just prepares your heartfor for being a christian.
All who live godly in christjesus shall suffer persecution.

(57:08):
I was just thinking biblicalfellowship, which what we're
talking about is verypleasurable to the human psyche.
Amen, and I'm convinced.
It may be wrong, but I believethat those who are closest to
god are marked by both joy and ahealthy sense of humor, and
that's pleasurable.
If you're in a congregation ofnasty people and you can make
them smile, they become yourfriends immediately.

(57:30):
It breaks down barriers and sobeing in a church that's just
filled with joy and filled withpeople that love to laugh, I
think is pleasurable and that'swhy we shouldn't dwell alone.
Satan watches for those vesselsthat sail without a convoy.
George Sinnock said that he's aPuritan.
He did say Satan watcheth, butI changed that to watches Hope

(57:51):
he forgives me.
And John Wesley said the Bibleknows nothing of solitary
religion.
Wow, and he's on a horse goingeverywhere, so he knew what he
was talking about.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
Yeah and Mark, sometimes it requires us
sacrificing time and evenopening our home.
You love to do that.
I mean opening your home is abig part of Healthy Biblical.

Speaker 2 (58:12):
It's hard to get in if you don't do that.

Speaker 1 (58:15):
It was always my desire to have a house where the
neighbors, the kids, would comeover to our house instead of my
kids wanting to go to myneighbor's house.
So we strategically wanted topurchase inside of an area where
there was community, wherethere was people living in the
area, where they would want tocome over, and so we built the
backyard to be such a way wherepeople will want to come and the
barbecue is always going.

(58:36):
Martin Luther said the devilisolates and thereby destroys,
and that's his first angle ofattack.
Let me isolate the individual.
You're all alone, nobody knowswhat you're going through.
You're a weirdo, you're strange.
Look where he points.

Speaker 3 (58:56):
You're ugly.
I forgive you.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
Mark.
And then we begin to thinkthrough that.
Think about that and the enemywill attack us.
No greater lie Come outside ofthat.
And Tozer said nothing fostersgrowth like the presence of
other growing believers.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
It's the coals in the fire.
Take a coal by itself it goescold, but put it with the other.
Coals the hot coals don'tbecome cold Coals.

Speaker 3 (59:20):
And when you think of what Paul said in.
Ephesians 4, 1 through 3, thatwas so lame.
It was his sermon on MacaulayCulkin.
Ephesians 4, 1 through 3,.
I therefore, the prisoner ofthe Lord, beseech you to walk
worthy of the calling with whichyou were called, with all
loneliness and gentleness, withlong suffering, bearing with one
another in love, endeavoring tokeep the unity of the Spirit

(59:45):
and the bond of peace.
Man, he's tying that in withwalking worthy of the calling
with which we are called andthat leads into pursuing unity,
the unity of the Spirit and thebond of peace.
And I love how it describesearly church, acts 2.42,.
And they continued steadfastlyin the apostles' doctrine and
fellowship and the breaking ofbread and in prayers.

(01:00:05):
And Hebrews 10, 24 to 25,.
And let us consider one anotherin order to stir up love and
good works, not forsaking theassembling of ourselves together
.
That's the purpose ofassembling together.
It's to stir one another up tolove and good works, and that
happens in community.
And then I love Hebrews 3, 12on.

(01:00:26):
Beware, brethren, lest there bein any of you an evil heart of
unbelief departing from theliving God, but exhort one
another daily, while it iscalled today, lest any of you be
hardened through thedeceitfulness of sin.
Sin is deceitful and ultimatelya part of our fellowship with
one another.
Being in each other's lives isto exhort each other.
So we aren't hardened to speakin each other's lives, to rouse

(01:00:49):
each other up throughencouragement.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
Speaking of that, the Amplified Bible, speaking of
the deceitfulness of sin, usesthe words the delusive glamour
that a sin may play upon him.
It's a delusive glamour, that'sgood.

Speaker 3 (01:01:02):
Kent Hughes said there's no healthy Lone Ranger
Christians.
Every Christian needs agospel-centered,
scripture-saturated, lovingcommunity to grow.
And he needs a tonto, a tonto,ooh, tonto, ton with Toe, with a
toe.
That's what it means.
So there you have it, friends.

(01:01:22):
If you're not in good, healthy,biblical community, get into it
.
And we have people ask us attimes, you know, should I stay
in my church?
I don't know.
There's this, there's that.
First, try to be a part of thesolution, and if you can't be,
if there's unhealthy thingsgoing on, then you need to find
a place where there is goodhealth in terms of biblical
community.
And so do that.
And again, don't let this justslip away.

(01:01:45):
Decide right now.
I'm going to do A, b and C inorder to make sure that I
contribute to good, healthycommunity and that I have it in
my life.
All right, friends, there youhave it.
Don't forget the 10commandments, the luck treasure
chest 300, 500, 1,000, and soon10 billion, Ray Comfort will
make sure of it, swimming poolsize boxes.

(01:02:07):
Don't forget the Living Watersmug, the Evidence Study Bible,
living Waters TV all atlivingwaterscom and the podcast
YouTube channel.
Thank you for joining us.
Oh, podcast at livingwaterscomThoughts, ideas, comments we
love them.
Thank you for joining us,friends.
We ideas, comments we love them.

(01:02:30):
Thank you for joining us,friends.
We'll see you here next time onthe Living Waters podcast,
where we still still yes, stillhave no idea what we're doing.