Ep. 350 - The Unbiblical Errors of Psychiatry & Psychology

Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar are joined by Dr. Greg Gifford, Assistant Professor of Biblical Counseling at The Master’s University and author of a new book that challenges the roots of modern psychology from a biblical perspective. As a counselor, Greg has noticed oddities in therapy methods that often fail to address the root of the issue for Christians. Instead of demonizing individuals or dismissing therapy completely, Greg encourages believers to explore how psychology and psychiatry differ, what Scripture says about the mind and soul, and how biblical counseling provides a Christ-centered alternative to mainstream therapeutic practices.

Biblical counseling views the Bible as the ultimate authority, contrasting with secular therapy that places the self as the highest truth. A key issue raised is the confusion between mind and brain. The mind is connected to the inner person—the heart, thoughts, and soul—while the brain is part of the physical body. Using medication to treat the brain may relieve symptoms, but if no physical cause is identified, the believer should be open to spiritual self-examination and repentance. Greg urges listeners to seek out certified biblical counselors who base their guidance on the authority of God’s Word. Red flags in counseling include seeking advice from those who do not share a biblical worldview, as they could mislead rather than direct toward Christ.

E.Z. raises the topic of shame, which is often avoided in today’s culture but is understood biblically as a way to guide one toward repentance. The aim is not to remove shame entirely but to let it serve its purpose in the process of confession, repentance, and restoration. Greg’s nuanced perspective recognizes that people can suffer deeply but challenges the modern labeling of it as a disease of the mind. Understanding the difference between brain and mind is essential. Christians are encouraged to consider whether their reliance on medication is covering up deeper spiritual needs. The Bible addresses restlessness, identity, and suffering, offering hope and healing that secular therapy cannot provide.

Toward the end, Mark asks a bold question about the blind spots in biblical counseling. Greg responds by urging the church to focus not only on critiquing secular approaches but also on addressing the root causes of issues. The conversation ends with a reminder that Christians are not defined by their diagnoses or struggles—they are defined by Christ. Greg encourages listeners to be skeptical not of truth but of man-centered approaches that fail to rely on the sufficiency of Scripture.

Send us a text

Thanks for listening! If you’ve been helped by this podcast, we’d be grateful if you’d consider subscribing, sharing, and leaving us a comment and 5-star rating!

Visit the Living Waters website to learn more and to access helpful resources!
You can find helpful counseling resources at biblicalcounseling.com.
Check out The Evidence Study Bible and the Basic Training Course.

You can connect with us at [e-mail]. We're thankful for your input!
Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
So what I would love to reframe for people is that
what you have been told, yourlabel all of life, what you have
been told, is not an illness ofyour mind, that category
doesn't exist, like that's afalse construct, but yet you can
still struggle with that thing.
So now, what should that do?
That should then open us up towell, what does the Bible say
about sadness or being abusybody in school or struggling

(00:23):
with anxiety?
What does the Bible say aboutthose things?
Let's frame this through thelens of Scripture.
And what does the Bible sayabout meds?
Well, meds are not inherentlysinful.
If a person's going to make anargument that medications are
sinful, I mean it's first of allnot true.
Like Paul encourages wine forthe sake of the stomach, 1
Timothy 5.23.
Like you can use medicine formedical purposes, even things

(00:46):
that we don't know why it'shelping.
It's just helping.
Like Tylenol, I don't know whyI have a headache sometimes.
It's just helping relieve theheadache, you know.
So in the book I try to make itclear that you can.
If you have God-honoringmotivations and you've obtained
them legally, you can usepsychotropics in a way that
honors the Lord.
It doesn't make you a weaker,lesser person.
But you just have to recognizewhat they're doing.

(01:07):
They're not treating the rootcause, they're treating the
symptoms of the cause.

Speaker 3 (01:18):
Unpolisonationism, friends, that's the new mental
illness sweeping the nation andI'm sad or I don't know, maybe
happy to report that I have it,frans, that's right, my pool is
no more.
Well, it's in the process ofbeing no more.
And before you write and say,oh, you have a pool, you're rich

(01:42):
, everyone has a pool inCalifornia, it's no big deal.
But, guys, I have a pool,you're rich, everyone has a pool
in California, it's no big deal.
But, guys, I pulled the plug.
Good, I had to go to Home Depotand try to rent one of those
water suction things to get itout.

Speaker 4 (01:57):
Oh, I've got one.
What I've got two.
You do not, mark, I do.
I've got two really big ones,our friendship has officially
ended.

Speaker 3 (02:07):
You have no idea what I went through.

Speaker 4 (02:09):
It's because we live so far apart.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
I cannot believe you seriously, do I do?
All right, all you need is athirsty dog.
Yeah, we'll talk about yourlabor status.

Speaker 5 (02:18):
I'm just disappointed that you didn't let me skate it
before you came.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
Yeah Well, I was going to that.
You didn't let me skate itbefore.
Yeah well, I was gonna say so.
So I send pictures to myfriends of the destruction of my
pool, because what they do isthey?
They take out two feet aroundthe perimeter and they make
three holes in the bottom.
There's all this rubble inside.
So I send it uh to my dearfriends and oscar responds wait,
can't we skate it?
Mark spence responds your, yourpool is dirty.
And then I sent it uh to abunch friends and then we were

(02:45):
talking about you know, like,hey, why are you removing your
pool?
I said look, we hardly use it.
It's a bunch of money wasted inmaintenance and repair and it's
eating up precious space thatcan be used for my incessant
hookah smoking and Rachel'smonthly truck driver's union
meetings.
Away with it, Ray you knowRachel's a truck driver.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
So what about the most important reason you're
getting rid of your?

Speaker 3 (03:03):
poor.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
Death trap for grandchildren.
Good point Ray.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
Good point.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
And children.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
Oh, grandchildren, eh , whatever, yeah, that's right,
Rachel's been anxious.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
We've got two more coming you know, five kids, more
grandkid babies.

Speaker 5 (03:15):
I'm serious about you not letting us skate it, though
that's messed up.

Speaker 3 (03:18):
Oscar, you don't know how to skate.

Speaker 5 (03:25):
That was like the big growing up when you found out
there was an empty neighborhood.
It was like you had about threeweekends.
Yeah, we can one, no one knewabout it.
We can two there was a bigparty and we can three the cops
would shut it down.
Yeah, so you ruined a smallwindow of opportunity for me?

Speaker 3 (03:35):
I know I should have.
I should have brought you tohumiliate you as you tried to
skate it.
All right, friends, time for acool, classy comment, a comment.
This comment is from about ourSpanish tracts on our YouTube
channel.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
This is from Nathan.

Speaker 3 (03:50):
Cote, it's in English .
Huh, it's in what English I?

Speaker 4 (03:54):
think so.
You have the gift ofinterpretation.

Speaker 3 (03:56):
No, no, it's not.
This is from the YouTubechannel.
That's another one.
This is from Nathan Cote.
It could have only been throughGod.
As everything is, I'm a boyabout to turn 15, and I've been
a listener for a couple of yearsnow.
All of your insights,overflowing with biblical truth
and bubbling with godlyfellowship, have made a godly
ordained impact on my life thatI can't describe.

(04:16):
I'm eternally grateful for yourcontribution to the advancement
of God's kingdom.
Remember he's 14.
Impacting millions of othersand me personally.
Before God placed you all in mylife, I was living a lukewarm
Christian life, but did not knowit.
Christian was pretty much atitle I held, and although I
believed all of the orthodoxdoctrine I was raised in, I
don't think I had ever made apersonal surrender of my life to

(04:37):
Christ.
This podcast had a hugeinfluence on God, leading me to
a true saving faith in which Inow live out my life with
intentionality to please theLord and advance his kingdom.
Man.
Now he must have he read thatthrough AI?

Speaker 2 (04:51):
I don't think so, man .

Speaker 3 (04:52):
That was really good you have all made me realize the
importance and need for actualtruth in such a paganistic
culture.
Anytime I feel influenced bythe deceptive ways of the world,
I know I could be refreshedevery time I listened to all of
your biblically-based truth andwisdom.
There's so much ungodliness inthis world and it is very
deceptive in hiding itself inthe many services that call

(05:12):
themselves Christian but reallyhave ungodly workers and
intentions.
I'm so thankful that thispodcast stands by what it claims
.
Additionally, I'd like to thankRay for how much he has made me
realize the importance ofevangelism and reaching the lost
.
Thank you all so much for thework you do and the personal
impact you have had on my life.
I wish I could meet all four ofyou in person to tell you all

(05:33):
the ways in which God, in hisinfinite mercy, has allowed
wretched, sinful filth like meto be influenced by such godly
men.
All praise be to God forever.
He's on staff.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
We'll hire him.
Yes, and he succeeded.

Speaker 3 (05:47):
Look what he put at the end.
Don't read this part out loud,but see if Ray says amen.

Speaker 4 (05:52):
The last word was forever.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
Busted Ray Comfort.
Congratulations, our dearfriend.

Speaker 5 (05:59):
Nathan.
I'm ready for him to write abook, I know.

Speaker 3 (06:01):
Nathan brother, what can we say?
I mean, we sit around thistable each week and do what we
do, but this is why we live,it's for responses like that.
So praise God and stay strong.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
Amen.

Speaker 3 (06:15):
Yeah, I wish I got saved at his age.
We're still waiting, I know.
All right, friends.
Time for RadicallyRevolutionary Resources.
This podcast is brought to youby Ray Comfort's Multiple
Treasure Chests.
Ray, when's this going to stop,this treasure chest thing?

Speaker 2 (06:32):
I am so excited because it's getting people
using the coin.
How many do we have now?

Speaker 3 (06:38):
Is it four?

Speaker 2 (06:39):
I think there's three or four, with a gold one, I
think, over 500 of soul.
We used to sell seven a monthand it's just taken off when
people have seen the excitementof having a real nice treasure
chest that you keep the treasureof the coin with the Ten
Commandments and the Gospel onit, yeah, amen, I'm addicted to
those little treasure chests.
We can tell right.

Speaker 3 (06:59):
So check them out, friends.
Don't forget the Living Watersmug, the Evidence Study Bible,
living Waters TV, and don'tforget the podcast YouTube
channel.
Check out all that stuff atlivingwaterscom.
Yeah, all right, friends, todaywe have with us in the studio
you guys selling drugs overthere.
I figured we have with us.

Speaker 2 (07:19):
You better explain that Mark gave him a teen
commandment coin to look at.

Speaker 3 (07:25):
That's what it was Today friends, in case you
haven't been able to tell by thevery cool, distinguished and
very sophisticated laugh, wehave a special guest with us
here to analyze, psychoanalyze,ray Comfort.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
Mark Svensson and.

Speaker 3 (07:38):
Oscar.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
Navarro.

Speaker 3 (07:40):
They didn't know what this was all about.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
It's a surprise therapy session.
He just left.

Speaker 3 (07:45):
It's our good friend Greg Gifford.
Guys, welcome, Greg.
This needs a clap.
Yes, oh, thank you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Greg brother, good to have youwith us man.
Yeah, good to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, I've had a connectionwith you in a way.
I In a way I serve on the boardof Wretched or the Fortis
Institute or Gospel PartnersMedia with our good friend Todd

(08:08):
Friel.
Oh yeah, todd Friel, freakishlytall Todd, the wretch himself.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
Why does Todd have two Ds to his name?
Are we pronouncing it wrong?
Should I have a Y on the end ofmy name, todd-a-da-da-da?
An extra Y on the end of myname, right, yeah, yeah yeah,
right, he wants emphasis.

Speaker 3 (08:22):
But, greg, brother, we're blessed to have you with
us, man, so encouraged by whatthe Lord's been doing in and
through your life.
You've been working again withFortis for a long time the
Transformed podcast, thetelevision series that you do,
which includes counseling people.
You're the chair of the Schoolof Biblical Studies at the
Masters University, fellow atthe Fortis Institute, and you
pastor, you counsel man.

(08:45):
You do a lot of stuff.
You served in the military too.
Sure, yeah, captain man, true,serious stuff.
We have two military guys onthis podcast and the next one.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
They haven't mentioned our studio audience.

Speaker 3 (08:56):
Yeah, oh, and our studio audience.
We have with us today, for thevery first time, the new Living
Waters employee, phoebe Robb.
Phoebe, welcome, you guys haveheard us mention our good friend
, christian Robb, who's been afriend for a long time.
Phoebe Mark and I have knownsince her birth, basically, and

(09:16):
she's been a part of the churchwhere we pastored and a part of
our friend group for many, manyyears at our church now, and
blessed to have you with us,phoebe.
So welcome aboard.
All right, greg Gifford, anyonecall you Gregory?
Yes, when I'm in trouble.
Okay, we'll do that today.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
So you psychoanalyze someone that calls you Gregory.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
Yeah, what does that mean and how does that make you
feel?
Yeah, tell us.

Speaker 3 (09:38):
So, greg, today we're going to be talking about the
unbiblical errors of psychiatryand psychology, and this is
sparked by an amazing, amazingbook you wrote Lies.
My Therapist Told Me whyChristians Should Aim for More
Than Just Treating Symptoms, andsome really sophisticated guy
endorsed it back here.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
Look at that Johnny Artimanis, emil EZ Zwayne.

Speaker 3 (10:09):
Man, I was honored to be asked to endorse it and was
blessed to do that.
Man, this is a phenomenal book.
Someone, in one of theendorsements, I think, said that
they thought this is going tokind of be the authoritative
work on this subject, and Ireally think it is going to be.
I was encouraged.
I was personally edified,especially, man, that last
chapter about Christ.
I mean, I was reading it andjust worshiping the Lord, and so

(10:29):
we're excited to have you withus.
Tell us what's been behind thebook and how it's been doing so
far.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
You just look behind the book.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
Your name is behind the book.
No, it was.
I mean, honestly, as acounselor, there's always a
bunch of methods that seem odd,things that come up, you know,
like there's a method whereyou'll have your eyes follow
someone's finger in counseling,or you'll have like exposure
therapy, where you think aboutwhat you experienced in that

(10:58):
trauma and sometimes, as aChristian, it's just like I
don't know if these things areactually dealing with the root
of the issue.
So instead of just critiquingall those downstream things, it
was really the beginning of metrying to figure out why, as
Christians, do we use those.
What's happening?
Are those things reallytreating the root of the cause?

(11:19):
And that's where the book camein, where I wanted to help speak
to what are the ideas behindmodern day therapy secular
psychology, psychiatry and arethey really helping us or are
they making things worse?
So like that's how thetrajectory started and that was
probably three years ago.
Just starting to think thatthrough and do that research.

Speaker 3 (11:38):
Man a lot of research .
I mean, the book is packed withgood information.
I think, especially with a booklike this, it's no doubt going
to be controversial.
I mean, it's a disruptor, noquestion.
It's so important that thingsare carefully and thoroughly
researched, and so that's one ofthe things I really appreciated
about it, and bro it's on fire.
I looked it up on Amazon.

(11:59):
It's like in the top 2000,which may not sound impressive,
until you realize Amazon has32.8 million different titles,
so it's in the very top echelons.
I think it was like numberthree in the counseling category
, which is huge.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah, I mean it creates conversations, even just
talking about like does aChristian use therapy, do they
not?
Is it all good, is it all bad?
Like that's where we live.
We live in a therapeutic age.

Speaker 3 (12:25):
Yeah, Well, we want to get into all of that.
Uh, Oscar, I know you took thebook with you to the Dominican
Republic and uh, yeah, I'd loveto hear your thoughts and
questions.

Speaker 5 (12:35):
Uh, I got to.
I got a chance to get it beforeI left for my trip, so I read
it on the flight there a littlebit on the way back.
Um, help me.
I have great questions for you,gray, and one of them is help
people walk through.
Cause I think something thatyou did well in the book is that
you did you.
You had a balanced approach ofnot trying to demonize
individuals but help them thinkmore clearly and connect the

(12:58):
dots between what they'restruggling with and the
spiritual aspect of ofthemselves, and I guess the
question is why does that getlost on so many people and how
do we bring that back into theconversation?

Speaker 1 (13:12):
That's, I think, one of the hardest parts, because I
think we're living in thisnaturalistic society where
everything has a physicalexplanation and when we are sad
or we grieve or we respond to atraumatic moment in an unusual
way, our natural response no punintended is to look for a
natural cause.
What about my body?

(13:33):
Or my brain is causing this?
They've started to try to blamethings on the brain and confuse
mind and brain in such a waythat it seems like there is a
biological reason why you aredepressed or a biological reason
why you have anxiety or ADHD.

(13:55):
And, as a Christian, listeningto that, first of all, those
things can exist.
But I'm just trying to promptlike is that an issue of your
body?
Is it an issue of your brain?
So a lot of people that willhear this say like, oh, you
prompt like is that an issue ofyour body?
Is it an issue of your brain?
So a lot of people that willhear this say like he doesn't
believe in science, he doesn'tbelieve in these issues.
And no, I'm not saying that.
I'm saying can we demonstratethat these are actually issues

(14:15):
of my brain?
And if we can't, then thereality is we have to at least
be open to how God, through hisword, frames that subject.
So I would wonder, like in anaturalistic world and there's
no naturalistic explanation andthere's no naturalistic proof,

(14:37):
would you be open to anotherexplanation?
And that's what I'm trying toaccomplish here.
You?

Speaker 4 (14:42):
know, when we talk about counseling, right, it kind
of falls into many differentsorts of categories, but here in
particular, maybe you can givea working definition of what
does it mean to have biblicalcounseling?
I have a Christian friend whogrew up in a homosexual
lifestyle and when he became aChristian he still had these
temptations.

(15:02):
He thought that they wouldmagically kind of fall apart and
go away.
And he had a Christiancounselor come to him and say,
hey, every time you're tempted Iwant you to smell this bag of
dog feces.
And then you can relate the twotogether.
And he said it just grossed meout and he ended up walking away
from the Christian faith.
But when we talk about biblicalcounseling, talk about
integration, define it for us.

(15:23):
Where do we start?

Speaker 1 (15:30):
Sure, yeah, big picture biblical counseling is
trying to use the Bible as theauthority and the source, the
authority and the source.
So it's not just that we'resaying, well, we're going to use
a proverb here and there.
You guys know Dave Ramsey, youknow financial peace He'll take
one proverb and frame this wholemethodology off that one
proverb.
We're not trying to do that.
We're trying to say let's thinkabout people through the lens
of Scripture, let's think abouttheir problems through the lens

(15:50):
of Scripture, let's think aboutthe solutions to their problems
through the lens of Scripture.
And honestly, as anthropologygoes, so goes all of the rest
your care for people, thesolutions you would offer them.
So it's biblical counseling.
It's not trying to claim itsown jurisdiction, it's just
trying to help people from theauthoritative and sufficient
Word of God.

Speaker 3 (16:10):
I mean, that's really the end of it yeah, and at the
end of the day, it always comesdown to authority.
I mean, we're either going tolean on man himself being the
final authority on all thingsthat relate to life and the
foundations of the world inwhich we live, or we're going to

(16:31):
rely on the authority of God'sword.
I mean, that's it, and I lovesimplicity.
We have those two options andit's one or the other every
single time, and it's sad to me,I think that people don't think
in that way.
One of the questions I've beenasking people I mentioned on the
podcast is who's the mostsignificant human being that has

(16:51):
ever lived that has mostimpacted the world?
Oprah Winfrey.

Speaker 5 (16:56):
Right A car for you, and you and you.

Speaker 3 (17:00):
But no, obviously, almost everyone says Jesus.
And then I asked him what isthe most impactful book in all
of history, the most printed,the most read, the most
translated, the most purchased?
The Bible.
I say, man, if Jesus is themost significant person that's
ever lived, the Bible is themost important book, the
greatest book ever written thenwouldn't you be wise to say who

(17:24):
is Jesus and what does his Wordsay?
And so it's sad that a lot ofChristians even don't recognize
that, but they're going to theworld not realizing that they
are in a sense helping to verifyit.
Quote as an authority andthat's tragic.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah, there's an aspect of that, too, where I
think some are just looking foranswers.
Aspect of that, too, where Ithink some are just looking for
answers and their faith or theirchurch has been a shallow one,
one of just follow Jesus, butthere hasn't really been any
substantive answers through thescripture.

Speaker 5 (17:54):
And so what?

Speaker 1 (17:54):
we're doing is we're training people to go to the
secular therapeutic to get thereal world, practical answers
with what's being called mentalillnesses grief PTSD.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
Greg.
Two questions Speaking ofsimplicity could you define the
difference between psychologyand psychiatry?

Speaker 3 (18:12):
Good question.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, sure.
So psychiatry is medicine, it'sa medical doctor.
You have to go through all thesame licensure training that any
medical doctor would go through, so it's a specific branch of
medicine.
Psychology is counseling, it'stherapy, and if you were a
psychologist, you don't have theauthority to write a
prescription.

(18:33):
If you're a psychiatrist, youhave the authority to write a
prescription Usually.
That's the biggest difference,and a psychologist might refer
you to a psychiatrist to go getmeds.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
Oh, that's good, Now I know.
Second question is oh, that'sgood, now I know.
Second question is a lot ofpeople are told they have mental
disease because they'redepressed.
Do you think it's legitimate totell someone they are mentally
unstable because they'redepressed?
And the reason I'm asking thatis we've got a lot to be
depressed about in this worldand I think someone who's
depressed is sane becausethey're thinking about the fact

(19:02):
they're going to die, they'regoing to lose their loved ones.
The whole world's in a mess andthere's a lot of reasons to be
depressed.
And the same people that say,um, depression is a mental
disease, say something like 300million people in the world have
got depression, so they've gotmental disease right, which puts
the whole human race in a messright.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
yeah, it's hard to define what a mental disease is,
even by the secular therapeutic.
So there's no objective line ofwhen you have it and when you
don't.
We can't do a scan of yourbrain, we can't do blood work.
What you're going to do isverbally describe your symptoms
and a psychologist sometimesgeneral practitioners or aists

(19:44):
they will diagnose you based offyour symptoms.
So is that person mentallyunstable?
We can't define what mentallyunstable is if we're using the
secular therapeutic terminology.
So that's the real issue.
So what happens is thediagnosis grows because there's
no objective way to verify youhave it and there's no objective
way to verify you don't have it.

(20:04):
So, but I want to keep addingthat caveat of you can be sad
and not have a mental disease.
So don't hear me say there's nosuch thing as depression.
But I am saying there's noobjective way to verify you have
depression and that's why thediagnosis keeps growing.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
And there's one way to add to someone's depression
is to tell them they're mentalon top of their depression.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
And there's no cure, yeah, other than psychotropics
and antidepressants.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
Would you have got symptoms that are worse than the
disease often.

Speaker 1 (20:31):
It can become a self-fulfilling prophecy, where
you begin to self-conceptualize.
I think of myself as depressed,and that's why I can't do this
thing, which is tricky.
It's a really tricky thing.

Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:42):
Yeah, greg, one of the things you you hammer in the
book again and again and againand I love the intentional
repetition I noticed that wasthat was done throughout the
book and it's so good because wejust, you know, don't get it as
people.
Oftentimes we just hear it, weread it, but but it doesn't
stick, but it's stuck can youguys read that again?
Well, what we do as people is.
We didn't itits a stock ofmackerel, does that?

Speaker 2 (21:03):
work.

Speaker 3 (21:03):
Greg.

Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 3 (21:06):
So you keep talking about the difference and you
alluded to it a moment ago thedifference between the brain and
the mind, and I do think it'san honest mistake that people
make, not realizing that thereis a difference.
So I'd really love you to justkind of explain that to us.
How are the mind and the braindifferent?
I mean, how do you thinkwithout your brain or have

(21:27):
cognitive processes without yourbrain, or do they interrelate?

Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, that's really what got me started.
The whole book I was gonna callMind and Brain or Mind Versus
Brain, and apparently that wassuch a lame title that it was
rejected by yeah, that waspretty lame, bro, that it was
rejected by him.

Speaker 3 (21:42):
Yeah, that was pretty lame bro.
Go back, I gotta admit.

Speaker 4 (21:44):
Try again.
The title is phenomenal Striketwo.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
So the reason why is?
That is really at the crux ofthe issue.
For a Christian and I know thatthere are unbelievers that will
read this and think thisthrough but as a Christian, we
know what the mind is.
We just haven't alwaysconnected it to mental health.
Everyone is familiar withRomans 12 too.
Do not be conformed to thisworld, but be transformed by the

(22:08):
renewal of your mind.
And when I say that, mostpeople Christians that is don't
think my brain is going to berenewed.
In fact we know 2 Corinthians, 4, 16, 17, 18, like the outer
man's wasting away.
So your brain and your mind arenot the same thing, and the

(22:30):
Bible talks about thoughtsactually coming from our inner
person.
And I don't mean, like ourorgan of our lung, our heart,
the organ of our heart, theorgan of our brain, but our
thoughts come from ourimmaterial person, and the mind
is the source of your cognitionand your intellect and your
thoughts.
So what's the differencebetween the mind and the soul?
You could say they're both partof the immaterial person, and

(22:51):
if you're a trichotomist, somewould say that's another part
spirit, soul, body.
Or if you're a dichotomist,it's all inner man and then
there's outer man.

Speaker 3 (23:00):
Is that an in-house debate, greg?
For people listening.
Trichotomy versus dichotomy.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yeah, I think it is an in-house debate, but either
of those positions agree it'simmaterial, the mind is
immaterial.
So even if you're atrichotomist, you believe the
mind is immaterial.
You don't believe it's materialand honestly, that's not really
hard to prove in the scriptureRomans 12, 2, ephesians 4, 23.
Go back to Genesis 6 and seethat the thoughts and intentions
of the heart of man are evilcontinually.

(23:25):
So it's not hard really to seein the scripture where your
thoughts are coming from.
What the secular therapeuticdid around the turn of the 1900s
is started to use mental andbrain synonymously.
I think it makes sense in lightof Darwin and naturalism on the
rise.
So you start to combine themind and the brain.
And the problem is now youstart to treat mental issues

(23:48):
with brain treatments, medicalsolutions.
So you medicalize the mind.
And that small shift inanthropology is what has got us
to a point where one in fivepeople have a mental illness.
One in 10 are on psychotropicsbecause we don't know exactly
what we're treating.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
And suicide's up there.

Speaker 1 (24:06):
Yeah, suicide's up, hopelessness is up.
I mean the big pharma industryof making money off of us taking
antidepressants.
It's staggering, it's in thebillions.

Speaker 4 (24:15):
What role does medication?
I remember reading inside yourbook about the missionary family
, you know, and the mother waslike going insane.
Is there a balance here?
And I know that I'm opening upa can of worms here talking
about the medication side of it,but sure.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
Those are.
I mean, those are the questionseverybody's asking Like so are
you saying it's wrong to take anantidepressant and the answer
is no?
We are not saying that.
What I'm saying is that theantidepressant is treating your
body when it may actually be amental issue.
So if the mind is immaterial,there is no pill that you're
going to take that's going tochange your mind.

(24:48):
Easy example we would pay goodmoney for a pill that would give
us pure thoughts, but itdoesn't exist and it will never
exist, because pills cannotchange your heart, your inner
person or your mind.
So what are those pills doing?
Helping you manage symptomslike Tylenol?
Tylenol has a place, butTylenol can actually create more

(25:11):
problems for you if you're notdealing with the root of the
issue.
So we don't want to feel betterif we're in hard and
unrepentant sin Like so.

Speaker 4 (25:16):
Headaches are not caused from a lack of Tylenol
Right.
Right is basically the pointhere.
So when you medicate andthere's no real diagnosis
happening and most medicine istreating a symptom, not the
actual problem, I think that wehave the ability to take this
easy way out, right when wethink that Christians come along
and they say I believe theBible is true.

(25:36):
However, there's some practicalsteps, you know.
Maybe things become pragmaticand this just helps me to move
forward.
And then we have another issueof we're not bearing one
another's burdens and we're not,you know, I guess, just
fighting through what we'regoing through.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
Right right To your point.
Medical doctors should bepursued and we should test for
any reason why there might be amedical issue going on, why I
feel the way I do.
But if there's no medicalreason, then we should at least
be open to what's going on in myinner person that's encouraging
these outer man symptoms.

Speaker 5 (26:09):
in all fairness, I think the state of mental health
in the United States is in sucha tipping point right now and
there's not very many placeswhere people can turn.
Sure, you can, you can.
You've seen this.
I mean, you know, if you turnto modern therapy to your point,
like the, the, the DMR, whichis the book therapist used, it

(26:30):
basically encourages them toaffirm and pursue whatever
feeling they find inside ofthemselves.
Uh, to your point earlier,there's no authority in God.
It's only authority in your ownheart.
In other words, if you're aChristian and you walk into a
modern therapy office and yousay I've got these inner
feelings, same-sex attractionthey will say, okay, let's help

(26:51):
you come to peace with that.
There's no authority outside ofyour inner desire.
If you go in there and you sayI want to divorce my spouse and
leave my children, Okay, I willhelp you come to terms with that
decision and communicate thatto your family.
That's ultimately what moderntherapy will drive you to.
Why?
Because there's no ruddersteering the ship.
There's no ultimate authoritybeyond my inner feelings and

(27:15):
desires.
But let me turn the mirror alittle bit and say also so many
churches and pastors areunderprepared and are not
equipped to have these kind ofimportant conversations as well.
I've seen a pastor where theygot this book that was written
in the 80s and it was like hewould prescribe out of context

(27:37):
Bible verses oh, you'redepressed?
Here is your Bible verse.
Go, Be depressed no more.
And they don't have the toolsand resources to actually walk
people through some of this.
And the kicker is thatsometimes people would walk away
feeling shamed, as though ifI'm depressed, it can only be
that I'm in sin, sin notrecognizing the scriptures,

(28:04):
invitation to understandsuffering in the way that some
of us will have, suffering thatis given to us by the Lord.
And so how?
I guess?
The question is like where dowe go?
How does the average personwho's maybe listening to this
going?
Okay, well, I don't want to goto my psychiatrist, but I can't
go to a therapist and my pastordoesn't seem to have answers for
me.
What do they do?

Speaker 1 (28:21):
I think that's a win because they're asking and
they're open to what God's Wordmight say first of all.
And so it's kind of a failureon our part if we say, well,
don't go to a therapist, but wehave no one for you to go to.
It's like, oh great, well, Igot to go to my therapist.
Biblical counseling is its ownfield now and that means that
there are counselors, resources,training centers, all of that

(28:41):
that correspond to that field.
It is a growing field.
I think you could trace it backto the 60s, late 60s, early 70s
.
So that means that it hasrefinements that need to take
place.
Or it means that there arepeople that need to grow in
nuance and understandingsuffering versus sin, like those
things exist.
But if someone's watching thisor listening to this,
biblicalcounselingcom is where Iwould start, which is the

(29:03):
Association of CertifiedBiblical Counselors, and the
certified really matters becauseit's not just someone who has a
good heart, but it's someonewho's actually gone through
training.
They've been evaluated andsupervised in that process of
counseling.
So if you're stuck andlistening to this
biblicalcounselingcom, find acounselor and look for those
resources.
That's the next step.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah, Greg, what are some of the red?
I know you touched on itslightly before the following
the finger.
What are some of the red flagsthat people should look for when
it comes to someone counselingthem?

Speaker 1 (29:35):
In terms of like qualifications or who's
counseling them.
Not just qualifications, whatthey're saying you know, yeah,
psychologists or psychiatrists,yeah yeah, I would really,
really, really be guardedagainst going to an unbeliever,
first of all to get help withyour mind, because here's what
we're practically saying.
They've done years of training,but it's in humanistic

(29:57):
psychology, it's in Rogeriancounseling, it's in some
man-centered therapy, thatunbeliever doesn't believe in
the soul, immaterial person,afterlife, jesus, doesn't
understand the basic purpose oflife to glorify God and enjoy
Him forever.
And now I'm going to go to themand bear my life before them
and get life advice from them.

(30:19):
So I think honestly, if aperson's not a Christian, we're
doing our best not to go to them.
We're looking for at least aChristian counselor or therapist
.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
Blessed is the man who walks, not on the counsel of
the ungodly.

Speaker 4 (30:32):
Right.
Is there a common phrase thatyou think should be removed from
all counseling sort of sessions?
You know, we hear, you know,follow your heart.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
What is it that makes your blood boil?
I mean, follow your heart'sdefinitely at the top of the
list, I think anytime someonehides behind a mental illness it
does.
It's something where I think itwarrants challenge because
you're not being faithful toChrist because of a perceived
mental illness, and we have tobe honest about that, that you
know.
So if I say I can't control myanger because I'm bipolar, those
things do get me thinking andthey will encourage me to push

(31:06):
back a little bit outside ofthose.
It's usually the biggerapologetic stuff of biblical
counseling, like the Bibledoesn't have all the answers.
The Bible wasn't intended forthat and I think you you're
missing out on the truth ofScripture and what it's, like
you know, that deal with thesufficiency of Scripture.

Speaker 4 (31:21):
When we talk about Scripture being sufficient, what
does that mean?

Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yeah, sufficiency of Scripture means that all things
that pertain to life andgodliness are found in the Word.
So anything that I need to livea godly life, God tells me
through His Word.
And that has a lot ofimplications.
That goes back before theinternet, it goes back before
podcasts, it goes back beforethe mental health movement.
God, through His Word, hasequipped the Christian with all
that they need.
So the questions start to come.

(31:44):
Well, can I use other things?
What's the benefit of them?
But at the very end of the daywe're saying God, through His
Word, has given us all that weneed.
That's the sufficiency ofScripture.

Speaker 3 (31:53):
You know, one of the things you talk about, Greg,
that I really really loved inthe book was you identify
secular psychologists orpsychiatrists as secular pastors
that people are going to, and Iloved the way that you framed
that, because that's exactlywhat's happening, right, because
, like you said, we're dealingwith the issues of the mind

(32:16):
which deal with the inner man,and I also loved how you talked
about the inner and the outerright.
The outer, your brain, isconsidered the outer right, when
the inner is your mind, whichconnects again with your soul,
your spirit.
What have you so?

Speaker 1 (32:30):
yeah, yeah, I think we don't always consider that If
you're going to a marriagefamily therapist as a Christian,
most of the time you're notthinking well, I'm wanting to
usurp my pastor's role or I wantto ignore and sideline the
Bible.
I don't think most people arethinking.
I think they're just saying Ineed help and who do we go to?
We Googled this lady in townand she said she could take us.

(32:52):
She takes our insurance.
I think it's really thatpragmatic.
But the other side of that isit's a challenge.
Challenge now, because we didn'tgive our pastors the
opportunity to at least speakinto the issue.
So now I'm going to a licensedprofessional counselor marriage
family therapist and they'regiving me all this marital

(33:13):
advice that doesn't correspondto the Bible and they're talking
about needs theory and how toaffirm each other the Bible and
they're talking about needstheory and how to affirm each
other.
They're giving me thesecommunication tips and it's
really like downstream,surfacy-level stuff.
They're not talking about thegospel and forgiveness and what
it's like to be merciful inmarriage and to repent and the
marriage family therapists Imean they can't touch that.

(33:35):
So what are they?
We're going to them, they'reacting like our pastor, but then
they're giving us secular andmostly generally unhelpful
advice, and the point of thisbook is to help point people
back to.
Okay, maybe your pastor doesn'thave the time, doesn't have the
resources, doesn't have thetraining, that's totally fair.
But that's not a knock on God'sWord.

(33:56):
God's Word still has thoseanswers.
So let's find someone who'sgoing to use God's Word to help
you, instead of find someonethat's not going to use God's
Word to help you.

Speaker 3 (34:03):
Yeah, that's good.
Now I want to ask you aquestion that Ray has been dying
to ask.
Hey, greg, where does the termshrink come from?
Do they try to shrink yourbrain?
Yeah, I can hear.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
Ken Ham making a remark about that.

Speaker 3 (34:18):
Oh yeah, ray's shrunk altogether.
His body's shrunk, his brain isshrunk.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
That's it.
Daily shrinking, yeah.
Is that a genuine question?

Speaker 4 (34:27):
No, I'm kidding, no, seriously.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
I got no idea.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
Where did it come from?

Speaker 3 (34:30):
No clue, no clue.

Speaker 4 (34:34):
I've got a question I know you say to the Christian
who's been in therapy for 10years and they still blame their
parents and their upbringingand whatever it may be, perhaps
they're not even part of thelocal church, they don't know
where to go.
Maybe this addresses that thebodily autonomy and
self-introspection, not knowingwhere to go.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
How do we do that?
I would just first of allappeal like you've been in
therapy 10 years and is ithelping you know, like, how long
are you going to go?

Speaker 4 (35:01):
Well, I'm no longer cutting myself, so it seems to
be helping, yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
There's a pragmatic approach to some things and
we're thinking how do we addressit?
That is like the preservationof life is noble, the protection
of the image of God is noble,right, but are you getting at
the root of the issues or haveyou created a dependency on this
therapist?
That's right, and the therapistalso, even though there are
symptoms that have beenalleviated.
There's potential symptoms thathave been created, like the.
I am now canceling familymembers because of how I'm

(35:29):
reconstructing past events andI'm calling people toxic and I
see myself as triggered by acertain word or phrase, and
that's the young 20-somethings.
Yeah, it's triggered, bro.
All those buzzwords, though man, all those buzzwords though,
greg.

Speaker 3 (35:43):
I mean, they are so ubiquitous now they're
everywhere, you hear everyoneuse them but there's not thought
given to what the implicationsare behind them.
I mean the triggered thing,right Like I think in our
circles when we say it, we'rejoking about it.
People really use that.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Yes, right, yeah, and you are aggressing me if you
continue to do the thing.

Speaker 5 (36:04):
Guys, guys, guys, guys.

Speaker 3 (36:06):
Austin's triggering me right now Bring my hand up.
He's triggering me.
Is this a part of all the safespace stuff that was happening?

Speaker 1 (36:14):
Well, I mean, that's all therapeutic stuff, in all
fairness.
And so imagine that you plop ahigh schooler into therapy and
undiscerning, and the parentsare like, well, we don't want to
hold back, so we think thetherapist is going to help them.
And then, all of a sudden, thattherapist is actually planting
these faulty ideas that theirkids need to be protected.
Anyone that opposes you is notsafe, and if something is

(36:35):
uncomfortable for you, you needto recognize that's a trigger
for your PTSD.
And now we have this youngperson in high school starting
to self-conceptualize intherapeutic ways.
So don't be surprised whenthey're 22 or 23,.
And that's just how they thinkof themselves and they're being
dead serious.
You're triggering me.
You mistreated me as a kid, andhow did that happen?
Very formative years.

(36:56):
They were therapized in a way.

Speaker 5 (36:59):
Man.
I've seen this breakup atchurch.
There was this person I knewthat started speaking gossip
about other people in the church.
Who was that?
Started to be divisive.
Name rhymes with SchmigSchmumfert and you know when she
was gently approached withSchmake Schmumfert and when she

(37:25):
was gently approached like hey,you're making claims about
somebody.
We need to know if this is trueand if it's not true, you need
to repent.
The response was I no longerfeel safe around that person
around you.
I no longer feel safe aroundthat person around you.
I no longer feel safe.
And that was it.
That was like the conversationwas over and when we said what?

Speaker 2 (37:46):
do you mean?
Did that trigger you?

Speaker 5 (37:47):
What do you?

Speaker 2 (37:47):
mean by no?

Speaker 5 (37:48):
longer feeling safe.
Do you think someone's going toassault you?

Speaker 3 (37:51):
Do you?

Speaker 5 (37:51):
think somebody's going to raise their voice at
you.
No, I just no longer feel safehaving these conversations and
it was like how can we help?

Speaker 2 (38:01):
here it's a shutdown.

Speaker 1 (38:03):
It's a total shutdown .

Speaker 5 (38:04):
It's like how are we pursuing reconciliation, how are
we pursuing peacefulness withinthe church when it's just like,
well, I don't feel safe, I'mout, yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:13):
And, in all fairness, it's like you may not feel safe
, but sometimes you have to saybut am I unsafe?
Am I walking by my feelings?

Speaker 5 (38:21):
rather than my faith.
Also, why is safe so important?
We shouldn't feel safe ifthere's sin in my heart.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
I don't want to be safe from my own sin If I'm in
sin.

Speaker 5 (38:31):
I'm not safe.

Speaker 3 (38:32):
Yes, you know, greg, I have a really burning question
, because this is a word that Ihear often in a context that
that really, you know, riles meup in a sense, maybe triggers me
, I don't know.
But should you say, thistriggers me yeah, um, it's, and
I don't know.
You would know better than I ifthis is, if this comes from the

(38:55):
modern, you know thetherapeutic move, you know, but
that Is there a point, not.
Not Feeling depressed.
Yeah, it's the word shame.
So there's this thing I hearall the time, you know, I just
feel shame.
I don't want to feel shame andshame, but scripturally, like
scripture talks about how theyno longer know how to blush

(39:16):
right, it's like they'veforgotten how to be ashamed.
I think shame in connectionwith sin is a good thing, like
we should be ashamed when we'reliving in sin or in rebellion.
But there's a sort of a versionof like no, no, I don't want to
feel shame, so don't talk to meabout that stuff.
Is that from the modern kind ofyeah?

Speaker 1 (39:36):
it is.
I mean, some of it isphilosophical because we expect
to be affirmed, you know, backto the expressive individualism
that Carl Truman talked about afew years ago.
I don't want you to critique mein any way.
So then what's the solution forshame?
To just confess it, and thenI'll go on my social media
confess it.
I'll talk to everybody about it.

(39:56):
There's no reason for me to beashamed.
I told you about it.
But shame is actually a vehicleto lead you to repentance.
So you don't want to torpedothe vehicle.
It has a purpose and you canhave shame in and of itself.
That's good shame when you haveunrepentant sin.
That's God's kindness torestore you back and it's part

(40:17):
of His love Hebrews 12.
He disciplines the kids that heloves.
If you didn't experience thatshame, honestly, you should feel
worse and have greater concerns.
So, shame, where does it comefrom?
Yeah, it's therapize.
There's the false guilt stuff,probably more from the 70s.
There's the expressiveindividualism stuff.
But it's interesting becausethe remedy for shame is

(40:38):
confession but not repentance.
I'm just going to telleverybody about it but I'm not
actually going to change from it.
And even in counseling peoplewill just say well, I just got
to tell you this.
I just got to tell someone andget this off my chest and it's
like well, that might be thestart, but it's not the finish
line.
There is repentance from sin.
That's still needed.

Speaker 3 (40:57):
Ray hates that word repentance.
Sorry, you want to get off thejob.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
What part did Sigmund Freud play in what we're
talking about?
Was he the godfather of modernpsychology?

Speaker 1 (41:12):
In America.
It was a guy named WilliamJames and Freud was in Europe
doing his thing when WilliamJames really started psychology
in Harvard and psychoanalysiswas the trendsetter for a while,
which is all talk, therapy,psychoanalysis like associations
.
There wasn't medicine and whatwas thought is that
psychoanalysis was archaic.

(41:34):
We're going to move into thebiological era, where we're
treating the source of the issue.
We're going to find thebiological era where we're
treating the source of the issue.
We're gonna find the biologicalcause and in the 80s that was
the new hope that we could kindof leave the dark ages of
psychoanalysis behind us andmove into psychiatry.
But the promise to find abiological cause it has not come
through yet.
Like we're not able to say yes,this is why you are depressed.

(41:55):
We're gonna test you for this.
We're gonna test you for thisbiologically to show that you
have ADHD or anxiety.
So Freud was neglected and thencame back and I think he's in a
place where it's more illrepute right now.
Everything has a biologicalreason and Freud was more
focused on the inner person.

Speaker 5 (42:14):
I want to go back to a phrase you used earlier
because I think it's superimportant.
We probably used it 100episodes ago, but it's
expressive individualism, whichis a phrase coined by Robert
Ballard in his book Idols of theHeart.
Truman uses it quite a bit inhis book and what expressive
individualism essentially meansis that it's the view of the
self.
You quoted the HeidelbergCatechism earlier has a proper

(42:38):
view of self.
The chief endaman is to glorifyGod and enjoy him forever.
Expressive individualisminverts that, in which says that
the self is expressed from theinside out and isolated,
separated from any authority,parent, religion, nation,

(42:58):
anything else.
This expressive individualismis the follow your heart mantra.
It's whatever I find inside ofmyself.
That is my authentic self and Ineed to express it and demand
others around me to adhere tothat expressive self.
It's a modern way of looking atthe individual, a traditional
way of looking at the individual, a traditional way of the

(43:20):
looking at the individualsthrough nation, through family.
A gospel way of looking at theindividual is seeing the self as
made by God and known by God.
And I want to say one otherthing, because you guys talk
about shame and guilt.
I think that's such animportant conversation and the
way I phrased it and I know I'msort of I'm creating categories
and using two differentcategories for shame and guilt I

(43:42):
think it's helpful, though Feelfree to correct me.
What I like to communicate topeople is guilt is a gift by God
inviting you to repentance.
Guilt is important for us tounderstand our sin and need for
grace.
However, shame can be thereluctance, the denial of grace.
If your guilt leads you toshame, you're not receiving or

(44:06):
you're not understanding thegrace that has been given to you
and you can get stuck whereshame is ultimately reprieved by
grace.
Grace is the thing that tellsyou, yes, you are more flawed
than you could ever imagine, butyou are also more loved and
forgiven that you'd ever daredream.
That reality of grace frees youfrom shame.

Speaker 3 (44:27):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, oscar, and I
want to share my thoughts on it.
And, greg, I'd love you to giveus your perspective.
I think that my perspective isbiblically guilt leads, guilt
should lead to shame, in that wehave a sense of remorse and a

(44:48):
sense of regret over what we'vedone and that carries shame with
it.
I'm ashamed that I've done this.
I'm ashamed of myself that Icommitted the sin.
That shame that's created fromguilt or conviction maybe should
lead to repentance.
Once that repentance happens,we walk away from that shame.

(45:08):
So again, I understand thatit's important to clarify that
we don't walk around in thisshame.
But there's this whole sense oflike.
I don't want to feel that, butto me that's like a sense of
pain.
It's like saying I don't wantto feel heart pain.
If I'm having a heart attack,yes, you do.
That should send you to gethelp, right.
So that's my perspective onthat.

(45:30):
It's that for the unbelieverthere should be shame in that
they're rebelling against theLord.
That should then lead them torepentance.
It should free them from theshame.
And for the believer thereshould be that again, that sense
of shame.
I've just rebelled against Godright now.
I just committed this heinoussin.
I'm ashamed.
I feel conviction.
I'm ashamed Lord forgive meKnowing that we're clothed with
the righteousness of Christ,knowing that we have in him

(45:51):
forgiveness.
You know, in his blood we haveredemption.
Through his blood, forgivenessof sins, and that leads us to
repentance.

Speaker 4 (45:56):
Yeah, Greg's about to shame you both with a nice I'm
ashamed of my shaming.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
Yeah, I totally agree .
I think there's a if we'regetting down into the weeds with
shame and guilt.
I totally agree.
I think there's a if we'regetting down into the weeds with
shame and guilt.
So shame in and of itself canbe unbiblical.
Romans 1.16,.
I'm not ashamed of the gospel.
So if you are ashamed of thegospel, that brings guilt, you
know.
So there is a relationship, or?
2 Timothy 1, don't be ashamedof me, paul, tells Timothy.
So how do we start to parse itout?

(46:24):
Well, people do have sensitiveconsciences that have to be
retrained with the Word of God,and they're ashamed of things
that aren't actually a sin,right.
So we go back to Romans 14, andwe say, okay, you need to
retrain your sensitiveconscience with God's Word.
So it's accurate, and you don'tfeel shame over things that are
not inherently sinful orshameful.
So when we say you are indeedguilty, there should be shame.

(46:49):
In 2 Corinthians 7, 9 through10, is that is either going to
turn into worldly grief or godlygrief, meaning you're either
going to lead to repentance oryou're just going to feel bad
about it and not change.
So repentance is really thatcapstone of why we feel shame in
the first place, not just so wefeel lousy, but that we would
actually turn from our sin andbe restored back to God.

Speaker 3 (47:12):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm just saying like if a kid
walks up to his mom whoprofesses Christ, spits in her
face and punches her, he shouldfeel ashamed of himself.
There should be shame and thatshould lead to repentance, which
leads to the relief of thatshame, would you say that's
accurate, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
So I can't help but think of David, psalm 51, and
what we're talking about.
His shame, his deeds done indarkness were brought to light,
and he brought it to God.

Speaker 3 (47:42):
Yeah, amen, yeah, it's good, yeah.
So, greg, I want us, in the timeremaining, to really get into
the whole thing with thediagnoses of things like PTSD
and you know, schizophrenia,things of that sort in that vein
, because there are a lot ofpeople listening to us right now

(48:04):
that, I have no question, areon medication, chronic
depression.
You know the whole host ofthings and maybe you can
highlight some of them.
I love the balance in your bookbecause you highlighted the
fact that it doesn't mean youdon't have PTSD as an example,
but it just means that it's nota mental illness.

(48:25):
So I'd love for you to clarifythat.
You also and this is importantto highlight for anyone
listening you also say hey, ifyou're on medication, don't just
stop right, so you need to gosee your doctor and work on that
if you believe you need to beoff of that.
You also talk about how youdon't say that all medication is

(48:48):
bad per se and some people, ifit helps them, depending on a
few factors, that's fine.
So I'd love you to speak tothat.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
Yeah, most people that hear about this book
immediately have an objection,which is but mental illnesses
are real.
And that is a statement thatactually needs some nuance.
Because if you understand themind and the brain distinction,
as the Bible teaches it, then touse the illness term of

(49:16):
pathology, biological reason,disruption of cells, whatever
you're calling that, then yourmind can't get ill in a
biological sense.
It can't get the closest you'regoing to see inner person being
sick, Jeremiah 79, the heart isdesperately wicked sick, like
that's the closest you're goingto get.
So can we say there's, there'sno category of mental illness,

(49:38):
and yet you're still depressed.
Yes we can, Because depressionis not a mental illness, but
depression can still exist.
What we are calling depressioncan still exist.
Can a person have ADHD and thatnot be a mental illness?
But depression can still exist.
What we are calling depressioncan still exist.
Can a person have ADHD and thatnot be a mental illness?
Yes, we can.

Speaker 2 (49:54):
I think I've got it.
I do Seriously, I justattention deficit disorder.
Is it as well as you just loseyour attention and think about
other things all the time?

Speaker 1 (50:04):
But think of your giftedness too and what the
Lord's allowed you to do,because you're able to do
multiple things, you'reenergetic, and what happens is
we stigmatize a certain giftingand the kid that can't sit still
in school must have a disorder.
Who's most diagnosed with ADHD?
Junior high boys.
So in that way, can you be abusy boy in junior high?

(50:28):
Yes, you can, but that doesn'tmean you have a mental illness.
So what I would love to reframefor people is that what you
have been told, your label allof life, what you have been told
, is not an illness of your mind.
That category doesn't exist.
Like that's a false construct,but yet you can still struggle
with that thing.
So now, what should that do?
That should then open us up to.

(50:49):
Well, what does the Bible sayabout sadness, or being a
busybody in school, orstruggling with anxiety?
What does the Bible say aboutthose things?
Let's frame this through thelens of Scripture.
And what does the Bible sayabout meds?
Well, meds are not inherentlysinful.
If a person's going to make anargument that medications are
sinful, I mean it's first of allnot true.

(51:10):
Like Paul encourages wine forthe sake of the stomach 1
Timothy 5.23.
Like you can use medicine formedical purposes, even things
that we don't know why it'shelping.
It's just helping, like TylenolI don't know why I have a
headache sometimes, it's justhelping relieve the headache,
you know.
So in the book I try to make itclear that you can.
If you have God-honoringmotivations and you've obtained

(51:31):
them legally, you can usepsychotropics in a way that
honors the Lord.
It doesn't make you a weaker,lesser person.
But you just have to recognizewhat they're doing.
They're not treating the rootcause, they're treating the
symptoms of the cause.
And are they symptom-helping?

Speaker 3 (51:44):
Yes for sure you're going to say but let me ask you
this so like but is it best fora Christian, if possible, to
avoid medications in the sensethat should they try to treat
the mind issues versus just, youknow, doing that?
I mean, you know what I'msaying, Because I want to make

(52:05):
sure we hit that balance.
What I don't want to do is Idon't want anyone right now to
just throw their pills in thetrash.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
That's dangerous.

Speaker 3 (52:11):
But at the same time I don't want people to say well,
I heard Greg say that it's fineto use medication.
Is there a better way to try tominimize the need for that, and
maybe it's a last resort?

Speaker 4 (52:24):
It's a great question , right.
Maybe it's a last resort.
It's a great question, right,because what is the tipping
point to where you say you needto be on some meds?

Speaker 1 (52:30):
Right in the book I talk about triage moments not
sleeping, not eating, likeoftentimes.
People are hospitalized whenthey're so restless that they
have no choice.
They're gonna be medicated.
But in normal everydayfunctioning, are you able to
take meds and still honor theLord and be faithful?
Are you able to take meds andstill honor the Lord and be
faithful?
You know?
Are you blaming it on the meds?
Are you unfaithful?
You know your anger that gotout of control.

(52:51):
You blamed it on not taking yourmeds that day and I think if
that's happening, then youreally are starting to use your
meds in a way that they were notintended to be, which is a
crutch.
Or to blame shift to yourmedications what's actually
happening in your own heart.
But is it a first resort?
No, if there's no medicalevidence that this is a
biological problem and I'm notin a triage circumstance, I'm

(53:13):
sleeping okay then what shouldwe do?
Let's be open to what God cando when he brings about
transformation of our mind.
Let's go to someone that'sgoing to use the Scripture,
biblical counseling, to helprenew our mind and then see how
it goes.
I think that would be the beststep.
If there's no medical evidencethat this is a medical problem,
then let's start with the innerperson and see what God does.

Speaker 4 (53:34):
What sort of blind spots do you think biblical
counseling as it is right nowwith the books that we have from
really godly people?
I'd love for you to name someof those names or some of those
books for people to start.
But what are we missing thatstill needs to be written or go
into greater detail for today'schurch?
Some of the godly people.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
Heath Lambert.
He's done a lot of writing.
He used to be the director ofACBC.
Dale Johnson's our currentdirector.
We have a couple of fellows atFortis that are doing the same
work, so if the listeners wantedto get connected to more, I
would look up Fortis or thosetwo guys.
I think some of the blind spotsare that we've been downstream
saying why this therapy is bad,this therapy is silly, but we

(54:10):
actually haven't been dealingwith the upstream issues, like
why do we have this confusion inthe first place?
And that is actually going toturn the tide a little bit.
So instead of saying hey,you're going and doing primal
scream therapy that's wacky man.
Like why would you do that?
Let's talk about why you'reinclined to go there in the
first place and if biblicalcounseling can do that, I think
people will continue to come tobiblical counseling for

(54:32):
substantive answers, not justcritiques.

Speaker 3 (54:35):
Yeah, but great, yeah , I mean those things they do
like they actually put someonein a room, they just scream
their head off right, and that'ssupposed to.

Speaker 5 (54:41):
Isn't that what you heard them upstairs for Of?

Speaker 3 (54:43):
course that's what I was meaning.
Yeah, but they really do stufflike that, right?

Speaker 1 (54:48):
So if I just critique that, but I don't actually
construct something helpful,it's like well, you're just kind
of being a curmudgeon, notreally being helpful in that way
.

Speaker 3 (54:58):
So quick question do you see psychotherapy also
influencing the gentle parentingmovement?
Yeah, of course that's anotherone that makes me mad.
Yeah, of course that's anotherone that makes me mad.
Yeah, of course, Read the Bad.

Speaker 1 (55:09):
Therapy book by Abigail Schreier and she shows
how kids that went to therapy itactually contributed to their
problems.
So it's iatrogenic.
It made things worse andseriously, we all know this.
Like you want to ruin your day,just wake up every day thinking
about how you feel and makethat the focal point of your day
.
It just sounds like an awfulway to ruin your day, doesn't it
?

Speaker 3 (55:28):
Yeah, question, so let's take someone like Ray.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Let's let's.

Speaker 4 (55:37):
I want the psychiatrist chair right now.
I want Ray to lie down.

Speaker 3 (55:40):
No, but seriously, like we've all said, forever,
ray has like the most extremecase of ADHD in the universe.
He agrees, right, right, oh,yeah, right, yeah, okay so, but
let's take someone like Ray andput him on ADHD medication.
What would you say that wouldhave done to Ray, his
personality, his creativity,right?

(56:01):
I?

Speaker 1 (56:01):
mean, imagine it would have slowed you down just
a tad.
You know that people thatdescribe themselves as ADHD,
it's like racing in their mind,there's no tranquility, it's
like something's always churningand the things that I don't
know.
If this is like a true this iswhere you're at, or if it's like
, no, this is not at all whatit's like.
But if you're on meds, what itdoes is it slows you down and

(56:24):
sometimes it zombifies you.
So, yeah, you can sit in achair still now.
Congratulations all junior highboys.
But that's not necessarily thegoal.
The goal is that you wouldlearn how to steward your gifts,
and if someone's watching thisand they're super busy, they're
go, go, go, go go.
They're the Energizer bunny.
I think you say praise the Lord, the Lord's made you that way.
You're never going to be alibrarian and a very small, slow

(56:47):
copious.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
What a nightmare.

Speaker 1 (56:50):
Right, that would be a prison sentence for you,
because you have something goingon every day and you're engaged
in evangelism, living waters,whatever you're doing.
So in that way, I think we justsay that's giftings.
Do we medicate giftedness inthe body of Christ?
No, we learn how to utilize itfor the glory of God and the
good of the body.
That's the goal.

Speaker 5 (57:11):
Ray just wrote three books as you answered that
question.

Speaker 3 (57:15):
You know, Greg, that's so freeing what you just
shared is so freeing to a lot ofpeople, because those that buy
into well, I have a mentalillness.
First of all, I think it leadsthem to justify sin, and then,
secondly, it disheartens themand hinders them because it's
like well, I have a mentalillness.
First of all, I think it leadsthem to justify sin, and then,
secondly, it disheartens themand hinders them because it's
like oh, I guess I got this andI have a problem.
And then they medicate.

(57:35):
and then they.
I mean, I seriously can'timagine how so hindered Ray
would be had he not justfunctioned in the gift God has
given him.
I love that you highlightedthat's a gift, that's right?

Speaker 1 (57:48):
And what if he's told from junior high you have a
problem with ADHD and you needto medicate it?
And it's going to be hard tofocus.
What you seriously start to dois that's how you think about
yourself, like, oh, I can't dothis because of my ADHD, instead
of thinking, well, what can Ido based off of my giftedness?

Speaker 3 (58:08):
Yeah, that's so good.
Well, greg, this has beenphenomenal.
Is there anything we've missedin the last minute or two that
you wouldn't want to highlight,or do you feel we've covered it
all?

Speaker 2 (58:17):
Yeah, where the book can be purchased would be a good
thing.

Speaker 3 (58:20):
Yeah, yeah, we'll get to that, but I want to just hit
any substance Sure.

Speaker 1 (58:22):
I would just offer.
The reality is, my goal is notto disturb or to create a
dust-up over a seculartherapeutic.
My goal is for the skeptical,discerning Christian to hear
that the Bible has betteranswers and that the sufficiency
of Christ isn't like cute andall Sunday morning you know,
like that's a neat story ofJonah and the big fish, but the

(58:45):
sufficiency of Christ means wehave all that we need and it's
not like adequate, like oh well,I guess we'll get by with
Christ, but it's superior.
And if you are in Christ youdon't have to be your label, you
don't have to be your diagnosis.
Your kid doesn't have to betheir label, your medication
doesn't have to define howyou're going to live your life.
Like.
Be open to what Christ says inhis word, because His answers

(59:06):
aren't just adequate, they'resuperior.

Speaker 3 (59:07):
No, Do you agree with me, greg, that the whole AA
thing of I'm John Shlomo and I'man alcoholic the guy who hasn't
touched a drop of alcohol in 40years do you agree that that's
hogwash?

Speaker 2 (59:26):
When do you get to the point?

Speaker 3 (59:26):
In other words that in other words like no, if
you're a Christian and you'verepented, you're no longer an
alcoholic type thing.
Do you agree with that?

Speaker 1 (59:33):
Right.
A Christian isn't identified bytheir sin.
You're either in Christ.
So 1 Corinthians 6, 11, suchwere some of you.
That's not you Amen.

Speaker 3 (59:41):
Yeah, the way it's phrased is, I am Like decades
down the line like, no, you'renot.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
You're in Christ or you're outside of Christ.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
Pal.
Love and a sound mind.
That's what we have in Christ.

Speaker 3 (59:58):
Amen.
Well, greg, this has beenphenomenal, brother, the book is
Lies.
My Therapist Told Me whyChristians Should Aim for More
Than Just Treating Symptoms.
You can get it on Amazon andeverywhere else fine books are
sold.
Greg, how can people connectwith your ministry and repeat
that website for ACBC2 at theend?

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
Sure yeah, I would say look me up on any place that
podcasts are going Apple,spotify and look for Transformed
with Dr Greg Gifford andobviously Fortis Institute, if
you want to look atfortisinstituteorg.
I mentionedbiblicalcounselingcom for
finding a biblical counselor, soif you're watching this wanting

(01:00:29):
a biblical counselor, that'swhere I would start.

Speaker 3 (01:00:31):
Yeah, and on the website you can put in your
location and they'll help youfind counselors near you.
Well, greg, this has beenphenomenal brother.
Thank you so much for the freetherapy today.
We enjoyed it On.

Speaker 5 (01:00:41):
Ray.
One of the funny things aboutmentioning Ray in middle school
is that he's the same size.

Speaker 3 (01:00:48):
Are there meds for that?

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Sign me up, I'm sure I'll take it Well friends the
name again is Greg E Gifford.

Speaker 3 (01:00:54):
Don't forget the E.
And there you have it.
Don't forget the treasure chest, the Living Waters mug, the
Evidence Study Bible, livingWaters TV, alllivingwaterscom,
oh, and the podcast YouTubechannel, don YouTube channel.
Don't forget to check it out.
Thank you for joining us,friends.
Yeah, we'll see you here nexttime.
Oh, by the way, don't forgetpodcast at livingwaterscom with

(01:01:15):
your thoughts, comments andcriticisms of Ray, mark and
Oscar.
Thank you for joining us,friends.
We'll see you here next time onthe Living Waters Podcast,
where we, except for GregGifford, have no idea what we're
doing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
Analyze that.