Ep. 351 - Was Peter the First Pope?

Sharing the gospel with Catholics is an act of love because God loves them deeply. In this episode, Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar delve into the implications of Catholic teachings on the role of the Pope and its significance for the Gospel. The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church, but Scripture makes it clear: Christ alone is the head of the Church, which consists of true believers. While the Catholic Church has played a significant role in preserving God’s word and has done much good worth recognizing, there are serious concerns regarding salvation.

The Catholic Church has always taught faith, but not salvation by grace alone. The idea that grace follows all you can do stands in direct tension with the biblical message of imputed righteousness. Christ’s righteousness is credited to believers, not earned through merit. The guys make it clear they are not claiming there are no saved Catholics, but that salvation would be despite official Church teaching, not because of it. Oscar challenges the belief that Peter was the first pope, arguing that the early church resembled a presbytery, where multiple bishops served collectively. Historical evidence shows that the title and authority of the pope developed over time. Even papal infallibility was not formally declared until the 1800s and remains a topic of controversy among Catholics.

A central concern is the tendency to elevate tradition above scripture. The guys urge believers to let the Bible speak clearly. William Tindale gave his life to make scripture accessible, and it remains the most effective tool in gospel conversations. Matthew 16 refers to the truth that Jesus is the Christ as the rock, not Peter himself. Peter was important, but not preeminent. He referred to all believers as a royal priesthood. Reassigning that identity to a single man misrepresents the biblical narrative.

The guys also discuss doctrines that have been added over time, such as purgatory, the veneration of saints, and praying to the dead. These practices shift attention away from Christ. There is one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus. Ray shares that many Catholics know Jesus died for their sins but cannot explain what that means for their salvation. He has found that they are often open and willing to engage in a deep way. Rather than argue, he focuses on walking them through the gospel and lets God work. Scripture remains the authority. The church is built on Christ, not Peter. Grace is God’s unmerited favor to the undeserving. Compassion must not lead to compromise. The gospel is simple, powerful, and straightforward. Christ alone is the head of the Church.

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Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I often say to people , when they realize they're in
big trouble, they're heading forhell, they believe that Jesus
died on the cross.
I say to them what does thatmean for you?
Now, that happened 2,000 yearsago.
He died on the cross for oursins.
What does that mean?
How can it help you in yourdilemma?
You're under God's wrath,heading for hell, and they don't

(00:20):
know.
And yet he's on the cross infront of them at the church, the
Catholic church.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
I don't know, and he's on the cross in front of
him at the Catholic church.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
I'm doing a cross here and they just don't
understand it.
And I said well, I want you tolisten very carefully because
this is going to open the eyesof your understanding.
Understanding the fact that hedied for our sins so we could be
released from God's wrath byhis righteousness is imputed to
us, and it's just.
Catholics are such fertileground.
You know, I've spoken tohundreds, if not thousands, of

(00:51):
Catholics over the years andI've learned when it comes to
these issues.
When someone says I'm a roomCatholic, I've learned to go
deaf.
I deliberately do it.
I learned to go deaf, mark, andby that I mean I do not want to
get drawn into an argument withthem over their church doctrine
, because they've got scriptures.
They can, like we're saying,they can take one text out and

(01:13):
say, oh, peter's the Pope,mary's this, she's exalted,
she's the mother of God.
I don't want to go in thoseavenues.
I want to take them through thegospel, because the gospel is
the power of God to salvation,which is huge for me because it
means I don't have to beeloquent when it comes to
Catholic church doctrine andknow it inside out and how to
refute it, because I'm not thatway inclined.
All I have to do is faithfullygive the gospel and leave it up

(01:36):
to God.

Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yesterday, friends, we were having an executive
meeting here at Living Waters inour extremely posh boardroom
when we went off on a rabbittrail into just insane idiocy
and I said, guys, imagine howcrazy it would be if these
things are recorded and thepublic could hear it.

(02:03):
And Oscar goes uh, that'scalled the living waters.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
It's 350 podcasts later.
Yeah.
Yeah, but I said that like inall seriousness and then you
were like, and then it dawned onme, I'm like oh, that's exactly
what we do.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
Yeah, by the way, friends, I do have to interject
to this, because once in a whilewe do get an email from
somebody who says oh, thisbanter, I don't like the banter,
wasting time man.

Speaker 4 (02:32):
That's exactly how the emails are read.
Yeah, probably from my kids.

Speaker 3 (02:35):
No, that was identical.
So I do have something to sayfor those of you that have not
yet realized this and I justdiscovered it recently that have
not yet realized this, and Ijust discovered it recently
there is something brilliantcalled the fast forward button
that you can simply press andyou don't have to hear the
idiocy of Ray, Oscar and Mark.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
Can you fast forward an hour?

Speaker 3 (02:55):
Skip the whole thing.
So friends know that there's asolution to this.
You can skip us.
You know we do insane idiocyfor 10 minutes or so.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
Just fast forward.
We should have a little markwhere the banter ends that
people can go forward.
That's a little mark.
Yes.

Speaker 4 (03:11):
I'm 6'2" right, well, I'm not a little mark In a
48-minute episode, that's at 47minutes.

Speaker 3 (03:18):
But seriously though, look, friends, we've had this
in-house discussion.
We've said, oh, should we stopthe banter?
People plead with us not to.
So don't look only out.
Don't look only out.
Don't only look out for yourown interests, Philippians 2,
but also for the interests ofothers, your brethren, who want
the banter.
If you don't want it, fastforward.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
Did you just use Scripture to justify banter?
Did I do what?
Use Scripture to justify banter?

Speaker 3 (03:41):
Yes, scripture to just justify banter, absolutely,
it's biblical For those thatwant to be edified, because
people can't press a button thatsays create banter.
Although, wait a minute.
I guess ChatGBT could createbanter.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
We actually do have a version that removes the banter
, if you want that.
It goes down to like eightminutes.
That is, oh, the highlightsTuesday.

Speaker 4 (04:01):
Yeah, so what we did at the beginning of the year?

Speaker 1 (04:04):
so it just takes easy out.
Exactly.
We have two episodes thatrelease.

Speaker 4 (04:08):
We've got the full, you know 50 minute to an hour
long episode, and then we've gota condensed version which is
usually about 12 to 14 minutesout.
Basically no easy in it lonelyand on top of that, uh, the
living waters podcast youtubechannel also has sometimes
two-minute snippets, sometimeseight-minute snippets.
It's just condensed, richtheology.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
It's just the cream, so sometimes it's down to 30
seconds.

Speaker 4 (04:34):
Sometimes it's four seconds.
Four seconds yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:37):
Yeah, so yeah, you can do all that, friends.
But seriously I mean, okay,let's try this, let's try to go
without insanity right now.
See how long we can go.
We Okay let's try this, let'stry to go without insanity right
now, see how long we can go.
We're going to start again.
Hi friends, thanks for joiningus for the Living Waters podcast
.
My name is EZ, that's so calmActually, I kind of liked it,
that was really nice.

Speaker 4 (04:53):
It lasted two seconds , that was really nice.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
That would be the death of me, God forbid yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
By the way.

Speaker 3 (05:08):
Um, I'm hurt and offended.
That you did not notice, is it?
No?
No, we see it, no, no, we seeit, no, no, that I am now iron
man.
You see it.
Wait, what is that?
You see it, do you?

Speaker 4 (05:14):
have a pacemaker.
I'm now iron.
Did you get your?

Speaker 3 (05:16):
pacemaker.
I wanted to get it moved to thecenter but they wouldn't do it.
No, it's a heart monitor thingoh, I thought you're.
You ironed your shirt no Ironman.

Speaker 4 (05:24):
Oh yeah, Is it like incision.

Speaker 3 (05:28):
How does it work?
Is it like a suction cup?
No, it's just tape or whatever.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
So I thought it had nothing to do with your heart.

Speaker 3 (05:34):
What.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
Whatever you're going through.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
No, no, no, they're just the doctor.
Yeah, because, friends, forthese they don't know a heart
blockage, but they did sometests and realized it was
something else.
But they want to do a few moretests, just to see it was a
brain blockage Easy.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
I just want to say, if you have any problems during
the podcast, both Oscar and Raywill give you mouth to mouth.
I will watch you like Caltrans.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
Mark, please, who's going first?
How can I unsee that?

Speaker 4 (06:01):
The second he falls, I'm going to look over and go
call it.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
I'm dead.
No, do not.
He still leaves.

Speaker 3 (06:08):
If that becomes necessary, let me go be with the
Lord.
Do not give me mouth to mouth,please.
So yeah, I'm Iron man and allthat good stuff.
Okay, friends, listen, I havesome rankings for you.
We've told you before that theLiving Waters podcast is one of
the top podcasts in the world.
That's not hyperbole, it's true.
We do get rankings and I'mgoing to start giving some

(06:30):
shout-outs.
At number nine in Albania.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
We're number nine in Albania.
We're huge in Albania.

Speaker 3 (06:38):
Number eight in the Philippines, Number four in
Kenya and number one guess whereLebanon.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
Lebanon.

Speaker 1 (06:49):
They don't have internet there though right.
My people.
They don't have internet, theyhave a some guy pedals a bike
and that generates internet.

Speaker 4 (06:55):
That's how they do it .
All 80s Zwaynes are listeningover there.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
Yeah, all my Zwayne peeps.
So shout out to Albania,philippines, kenya and Lebanon.

Speaker 2 (07:03):
Number one.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
Yeah, number one and it held too.
Yeah, so these are all recentand yeah, but I'll be giving
shout-outs because we get in thetop 10 all around the world all
the time.
So thank you guys for listening.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
Do they speak English ?
No, they not speak English.
No people.

Speaker 3 (07:17):
I guess they must have heard there's a Lebanese
guy on here, so that's probablywhy we're number one in Lebanon.
But thank you, friends, andhabibis and shawarma and
lalalalalala, I love you.
All right, what now?
What's the AFC?
What's it called?
They're going to track us now,you said whatever.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
that thing is called FCC, whatever.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
All right, friends, time for a cool, classy comment.
The subject line says hellofrom an edified listener Ethanol
underscore zero three.
Hey friends, and that's howthey wrote it.
Hey friends, I just wanted toexpress my gratitude for the
work you guys do for the Lordthrough this podcast.
I'm edified daily as a driveraround the Houston area for my

(07:59):
day job.
Y'all's jokes, commentary andbanter, provide me laughs.
Day job Y'all's jokes,commentary and banter provide me
laughs, and your quotes, books,recordings and wisdom convict
and move me to continue boldlyto glorify the Lord in
everything I do.
May God be glorified alwaysthrough this ministry you guys
so excellently run and may hecontinue to bless you and all
those who love and support whatyou do.

(08:20):
All right, ethanol underscorezero three.
I'm sure that's not a real namePetrol.
Yeah, but thank you and see guysthere.
It is A living example.
Someone who appreciates thebanter and now a radically
revolutionary resource.
This podcast is brought to youby Four Question Survey Ray.

Speaker 1 (08:43):
We're having a meeting about that today.

Speaker 3 (08:44):
We are Tell us about the four question survey.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
It's a four question survey.
Thank you, ray, not five.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
Four.
It's questions.
What's it about, Ray?
It's to help.
I remember I've moved on.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
It's true.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
It's true, it's a little booklet with four
questions in it.
What are the questions?
What are the?

Speaker 2 (09:07):
questions.
What are the?
Questions you can tell whenhe's straining in his brain.
How about just?

Speaker 1 (09:11):
one of the questions.
Yeah, do you think there's lifeafter death?

Speaker 3 (09:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
Are you a good person ?
There you go.
Have you kept the TenCommandments?
And why did Jesus die on thecross?

Speaker 3 (09:26):
It gives you a structure to witness in and it's
a survey and it's very exciting, yeah, and um what else in that
?

Speaker 4 (09:30):
regard.
Yeah, so what'd you say?
I said, quite the salesperson,we're excited about it.

Speaker 1 (09:32):
Uh, I've noticed hey let me start again, friends yes,
tell us more, right what?

Speaker 3 (09:39):
are we doing with it?
Oscar, maybe you should tellpeople.

Speaker 4 (09:41):
yeah, well, I'll just off.
For those of you who are notfamiliar with using surveys in
the context of evangelism, I cantell you personally that I've
seen this to be very successful.
Those who are maybe slightlymore introverted, or either or
new in the concept of sharingthe gospel out on the streets, a
survey is a really greatresource because it's a really

(10:05):
non-evasive approach.
You walk up to somebody I'veseen you do this, Mark, with
surveys regarding abortion youwalk up to somebody, let's say
on a college campus, and youjust say simply, would you like
to participate in this survey?
People are likely to say yes,and then you walk them through
these four questions and itleads into a proclamation of the
gospel.

(10:25):
So we've seen it to be verysuccessful.
I know Ray's super excited,even though he can't remember
about this, and we're excited tosee it hit college campuses
because I think it's a reallyfun, easy way to get into these
kind of conversations.

Speaker 3 (10:37):
Yeah, absolutely yeah .
And when you walk up to someoneyou say hey, I just have a
quick four-question survey,it'll just take a minute or two.
You know we mind doing that.
And then you transition.
Why did you point at me andsmile, ray, can't help it.
A demeaning smile.
Were you going to say something?
No, oh good, no, just no, no,ah, nigh, yeah, all right,

(10:57):
friends.
Oh, make sure to check it allout.
Don't forget the Living Watersmug, the Evidence Study Bible,
living Waters TV, living Watersand podcast YouTube channel.
Yeah, we talked about thatalready.
We had an amazing academy.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
Oh, you forgot, didn't you?
I didn't yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:14):
You remembered what was it?

Speaker 1 (11:15):
I just well, I filmed it and just put a little thing
from behind the scenes for theLiving Waters TV up there.
Or it goes up today or tomorrow, but what a great academy.

Speaker 3 (11:24):
It was great.
Yeah, those of you that don'tknow, Oscar the Explainer, Great
minds.
Yeah, the academy is a specialthree, four day now event where
we have people come from allover the country different parts
of the world as well and we doclassroom training and
evangelism and then we take themout on the streets and give
them a tour of Living Waters onefrom lebanon, because they're

(11:45):
all watching the podcast orlistening to the podcast right,
they're too busy.
So there you have it, friends.
Uh, so make sure to check allthat stuff out at
livingwaterscom.

Speaker 4 (11:56):
Sorry, oh, oscar, all right, I fell asleep lukewarm
backslider.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
I I apologize.

Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, All right friends, Today we are asking a
very important you forgot what.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
You forgot?
Yeah, it's happening.
I've been hanging out with Raytoo much.

Speaker 3 (12:11):
We're asking a very important question.
Was Peter the first Pope?

Speaker 1 (12:18):
No.

Speaker 3 (12:18):
By the way, it's Petro Petra in different
languages, peter the first pope.
Yeah, ray, what's the answer?
No.
Thank you for joining us,friends.
We'll see you here next time onthe Living Waters podcast.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
All right, this is there goes all our Catholic
listeners.

Speaker 3 (12:37):
Yeah, I know, and again, I already hear you guys
hate.
Catholics.
You hate Catholic anti-Catholicbashing.
We love Catholics.
We really do Can you hold.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
We love Mark, we love sharing the gospel with
Catholics because we care aboutthem Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (12:54):
I was a Catholic, mark was a Catholic, oscar
wanted to be a Catholic.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
Scotty was a Catholic choir boy.
Half our ministry was Catholic.
Scotty was a Catholic choir boy.
Yes'm a Catholic.
Half our ministry was Catholic.

Speaker 3 (13:05):
Scotty was a Catholic choir boy.
Yes, that's true, ray.
Your aunt was dating a Catholicpriest with one leg.

Speaker 1 (13:12):
No, she had two legs.

Speaker 3 (13:13):
Was she the bank?

Speaker 1 (13:14):
robber.
It was another, it was the bankrobber.
She robbed two banks.
My friend's Catholic Four banksSorry forgive me, Four banks.
She robbed Four banks.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
She got two years.
Don't undercut her Ray Fourbanks.
So, friends, look, we do wantto be serious and say we
absolutely love Catholics.
Again, I was Catholic, mark wasCatholic.
I have a bunch of familymembers that are Catholic.
I aspired to be a priest.
My dad almost became a priest.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
Why not a pope?

Speaker 3 (13:47):
Well, yeah, rapping Arab Pope that would have been
me, but yeah, so we love ourCatholic friends and we want to
speak truth.
Yeah, there was somethingcalled the Inquisition back in
the day that our Catholicfriends did, so I think you know
I love Paul's.

Speaker 1 (13:59):
Am I your enemy?
Because I tell you the truth,yeah, and that sums up the whole
thing.
When someone says you'reCatholic, but I'm saying no, I'm
not your enemy, I just want totell you the truth, and that
sums up the whole thing.
When someone says you'reCatholic bashing, no, I'm not
your enemy, I just want to tellyou the truth, and we speak the
truth in love and what we wantto see is Catholics in heaven.
So they must be born again andnot be born again when they've
got their own interpretation ofthe new birth and we want to
tell them no, it's not what youthink it is.

(14:20):
It's not being baptized as ababy, sprinkled as a baby.
It's not being baptized as ababy Sprinkled as a baby.
You've got to repent and trustin Christ and then you'll be
born again, be given a new heart, new desires, with the
knowledge you've passed fromdeath to life.

Speaker 3 (14:30):
Yeah, and this subject is really important and
we're tackling it for a reasonbecause there are implications
that are connected to implyingthat the Pope is the head of the
Church, the vicar of Christ onearth, who can speak what's
called ex cathedra, which meansfrom the chair, infallibly when

(14:53):
he does that at certain times,and so there are a lot of
ramifications associated with itand we need to jump into it,
oscar.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
I interrupted you, ray.
I interrupted you, ray, Iinterrupted you.
I think it's important todefine what the church is.
The pope is the head of theCatholic church we can see there
, but he's not the head of thechurch which is the true church
of believers, those who trust inChrist, and Catholics would
contend that is what theCatholic church is and the Pope
is the head of it.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
It's the only true church, though of course they've
made some concessions in sayingwe are now what are called
separated brethren, even thoughin the Council of Trent they
said a lot of stuff about usbeing anathema, and that has not
been retracted.
But the reason why we addressissues like this and why we've
discussed Catholicism is becausethe gospel is at stake

(15:36):
Absolutely.
And while there are a lot ofthings that we can agree on in
terms of the historicity ofChristianity and some of the
essential doctrines, especiallyas it deals with the character
of God, the deity of Christ, thetriunity of God and so forth,
but there are gospel issues whenit comes to especially the
doctrine of soteriology, interms of how is one saved, and I

(15:57):
believe the Catholic Church hasa different gospel.
So right, mark, do you agree onthat?

Speaker 2 (16:01):
100%.
The uh, the catholic church hasalways taught grace, from the
beginning.
They've always taught faith, uh, they've always taught that, uh
, scripture is important.
What that?
What they haven't done is theynever said that it was grace
alone, faith alone, uh, christalone to the glory of god alone,
using scripture alone.
And this is what the protestantreformation did.

(16:22):
It came along, said, no, you'reabout it, but I don't think it
means what you think it means.
And so we returned back toScripture and it's whatever
Scripture has to say.
Excuse me, so, yeah, absolutely.
And there's just someoverlapping and there's watering
down and there becomes just aconfuddled mess trying to

(16:43):
understand.
It's like talking to a Mormon.
Oftentimes, when you starttalking about grace and
repentance and Jesus, it's likethey're not going to disagree
with you.
But a lot of times these wordshave different meaning.
So if I were to ask a Catholichey, when you hear the word
grace, what does that mean?
And they may come along andthey say well, it's unmerited

(17:04):
favor, great Unmerited favor,though, to the infinitely ill
deserving.
It's like the Mormon.
You know, you're saved by graceafter all that you can do.
And I rarely come across aCatholic and that's kind of my
longing right To come across aCatholic who really knows their
material, who really knows whatthey're talking about.

(17:25):
It's very rare and far and fewbetween.

Speaker 3 (17:29):
Yeah, and I think a big issue that we deal with when
it comes to the doctrine ofsalvation is imputed versus
infused righteousness whereas aCatholic church would have the
view of infused righteousness.
You get a little bit of therighteousness of Christ and then
you actually grow in that gracetowards salvation, whereas we
believe in imputed righteousness.
That righteousness of Christwas totally imputed to our

(17:49):
account and we're clothed in it.
He became sin for us so wemight become the righteousness
of God in Him, and so that'sreally key and important to
remember.
And so that's where the bigdistinction comes in there.
And let me just say too that Iwant to be clear that we are not
saying that there are nogenuinely born-again saved
Christians in the CatholicChurch, but that would be in

(18:09):
spite of the Catholic Church.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
Not because of it.

Speaker 3 (18:12):
Not because of it, and that there are some that,
like you said, mark, aren'taware of some of these doctrines
.
If you tell them, why are yousaved?
Jesus died for me and roseagain, right, because they have
the true God.
They believe in the triune God,they believe in the bodily
resurrection of Christ, theybelieve in the deed of Christ,
they believe in some of thoseother different essentials, a
virgin birth and so forth butit's that doctrine of salvation.

(18:32):
So there are some that don'tknow.
There are some that say no, Idon't bow down before marrying
statues.
I've always felt weird aboutthat, but I'm a part.
They just don't know.
But they could be genuinelyborn again.
So that's important to remember.
I'm glad you said that, yeah,and then also, what we maintain
is that the church has alwaysbeen around.
It's not like the church died.
The gates of hell will neverprevail against it.

(18:53):
There have always been genuinebelievers.
There's always been thatremnant and you could see it.
It wasn't just at theReformation that people were
beginning to protest theCatholic Church.
It happened at different stagesthroughout.
I believe basically at the timeof Constantine, when the church
became the national religion,that things began to alter there

(19:13):
, and a lot of it has to do, Ibelieve, both in the East and
the West, with the cultures.
If you see a lot of thepractices that are in there,
whether it's praying to thesaints or it's other different
forms, you can draw somecorrelations to the cultural
influences of the religions ofthat time.

Speaker 4 (19:30):
That was a good transition into answering the
question who was the first Pope?
And I love what you guys did.
I love you.
I don't know if you guys knowthis or not, but we don't plan
these conversations very much,but that was great.
We started with, foundationally, what is the gospel and how is
it applied to the differencebetween Catholicism and
Christianity?
Building a foundation.
And now you know who was thefirst Pope and the real question

(19:51):
is like was Peter really thefirst Pope?
I believe strongly that whathappens in the Catholic church
is that they apply today'sstructure into yesterday's
church, and so the idea of asingular, authoritative papacy
rooted in Peter is historicallyinaccurate.
It's sort of like revisionisthistory to go back and claim

(20:15):
that Peter was the first Pope.
And let me make an argument asto why the early church, as a
summary and I borrow a lot fromchurch history in plain language
, the early church was collegial, not hierarchical.
In other words, what ended uphappening is, without a doubt,
the early church probably lookedmore like a presbytery that we

(20:37):
would see today than it doeslike a non-denominational church
, in the sense that if youlooked at Asia Minor, rome,
alexandria what we had is acollection of churches and an
established bishop, and thatestablished bishop would help
lead those church leaders alongthe way and over time, what

(20:58):
ended up happening is Romegained in power.
So did the bishop that sat inRome would gain not so much
power but influence, and we havea lot of examples of like.
Clement historically is nowconsidered an early Pope, but we
have writings from Clement inwhich he himself does not claim
to have any authority over thechurch and, as a matter of fact,

(21:19):
this is one of the biggestsurprises.
There's quite a bit of RomanCatholic historians that argue
against this revisionist history.
Even the 1913 CatholicEncyclopedia admits this is a
quote.
In this early period, bishopsand priests were synonymous.

(21:40):
Authority belonged to a collegeof Presbyterian bishops.
In other words, authoritydidn't belong to the bishop who
was in Rome.
Authority belonged to thesecollection of bishops that
oversaw churches in differentparts of the world, and so, in
other words, like we don'thistorically see a singular Pope

(22:03):
figure in the way that weunderstand it today in those
first 300 to 350 years of churchhistory.

Speaker 3 (22:11):
Yeah, no, that's a good point to make, oscar, and I
think there's so much thatpeople just take you know at
face value.
And, ray, one of the things youdo and I love that when you're
sharing the gospel is youchallenge people to Look at the
word Like one of the thingsyou'll often say, like when it
comes to purgatory as an example.

(22:31):
That's not in the Bible right.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
Yeah, they accept that 99% of the time.
People say it's not so, it'snot Our problem when it comes to
witnessing to Catholics orsharing the gospel of Catholics
is that they exalt traditionabove the word of God, like the
Pharisees did.
Jesus said by your traditionyou have made void the word of
God.
So we can feel hogtied if theydon't believe anything the Bible
says.
And that's where we've got togo back and trust the power of

(23:03):
the gospel and trust the factthat salvation is of the Lord.
So when someone says I don'tbelieve the Bible, I just go to
the gospel and realize thegospel is the power of God to
salvation.
And when they hear the gospel,god opens the eyes of their
understanding and he opens theireyes to his word and the
authority of his word, andthat's my strong consolation.

Speaker 3 (23:18):
Yeah, yeah, and you know, mark, we're touching on
this in part because there'sbeen a lot of sort of shock that
the new pope of the CatholicChurch hails from the United
States.
This has never happened.
Yeah, chicago, and they makehim.
He's a White Sox.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yeah, in fact Ben Shapiro.
When he had met him, white robeas well, he gave him a signed
baseball from I think it was theWorld Series, signed by all the
players.
But speaking of Ben Shapiro whomet the Pope from Chicago, both
of them he said even forCatholics Peter's primacy is
debated, but biblically thechurch was built on Christ.

(23:54):
This is Ben Shapiro, shapiro'sfamous yes, Shapiro, who's?
surrounded with Catholics and hehimself, obviously, is Jewish.
Wow, william Tyndale, the Bibletranslator.
He said I defy the Pope and allhis laws.
If God spares my life, I willcause a boy that drives the plow
to know more of the scripturesthan he does.

(24:16):
Wow, we have to remember hedied for that, didn't he?
He did Boy, did he ever?
Well, just once, yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
Thanks, no, he actually died twice.
Oh, he probably did.
He died in Christ.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
And then physically, but then not spiritually.
Yeah right, what I like aboutthis is the best apologetic is
Scripture.
So when talking to a Catholicor a Mormon or somebody who
believes in reincarnation,utilizing Scripture is so
important because it's the Wordof God that is living and
powerful, sharper than anytwo-edged sword, because it's
the word of God that is livingand powerful, sharper than any
two-edged sword.
So William Tyndale is saying,and through his mission to put
the text into the common hand,people's life, and even

(24:59):
utilizing words that we usetoday, because of William
Tyndale, not only inside theEnglish Bible but inside of the
dictionary itself, that he madethe Bible.
God used him to make the Bibleaccessible to everybody today.
So therefore, there's noquestion whether or not Jesus
said something or intent oranything.

(25:20):
It may be, because we can goutilizing the original language
and, through great commentaries,understanding culture, customs
and tradition, understand whatthe text originally said.
What did the original authormean when he wrote to the
original audience?
And that's the beautiful thingwith Scripture alone, because it
is our final authority.
Rc Sproul he said the rock ofMatthew 16 is the confession

(25:45):
that Jesus is the Christ, notPeter himself.
So Peter was important, but hewasn't preeminent.
As MacArthur said, we don'tdowngrade Peter for the role
that he had.
And same thing with Mary.
Mary, she was blessed amongwomen, right, I mean, she bore
the Messiah.
We just don't venerate, wedon't bow down, we don't pray

(26:08):
too.
It's not necessary to do thosethings, and when we interpret
Scripture using Scripture, ifyou were to do that at face
value, you're going to come tothis same conclusion.
It's only through the teachingof the Catholic Church, through
tradition, through some sort ofwritten liturgy that might be
out there, that you're going tocome to the conclusion that

(26:29):
Peter is a pope, but he neverhimself would have said that he
was the pope, ever, not once.

Speaker 3 (26:37):
Yeah, big time.
And I think it's important togo back to, like we said,
scripture.
So where does the CatholicChurch get this?
And it would be Matthew 16,where there was a great
confession by Peter, where Jesussaid in verse 15, and he said
to him but who do you say that Iam?
So I there was a greatconfession by Peter, where Jesus
said in verse 15, and he saidto him but who do you say that I
am, simon?
Peter answered and said you arethe Christ, the son of the
living God.
Jesus answered and said to himblessed are you, simon Barjona,

(26:58):
for flesh and blood has notrevealed this to you, but my
Father, who is in heaven.
And I also say to you that youare Peter, and on this rock I
will build my church, and thegates of Hades shall not prevail
against it.
And it goes on from there.
And so I think you know, and hesays and I will give you the
keys of the kingdom of heavenwhatever you bind on earth will
be bound in heaven.
Whatever you loose on earthwill be loose in heaven, and I

(27:20):
think it's important to reallylook at this carefully.
You know, very reputableChristian historians and
theologians have, I think, madeit clear that Jesus was not
saying to Peter that Peter isthe rock that Jesus is building
his church on.
Peter Piper put it well.

(27:40):
He said so.
My understanding is that thebedrock on which the church is
built is the bedrock of Jesus'teaching, with the reality of
Jesus himself at the center.
He has it that binding andloosing extends to all believers
in that regard, and so I thinkthat's important.

(28:02):
There's the confession thatJesus is the son of the living
God, that Christ is thefoundation of the church.

Speaker 1 (28:10):
It's a hard thing to explain.
If you've got someone who's aCatholic, there's enough rope in
Scripture for him to hanghimself there he is.
He's the rock.
It's built on him.
It's the end Not realizing thatwhen someone confesses that
Jesus is Christ, the Son of theLiving God, jesus said blessed
are you, peter, for flesh andblood has not revealed this to
you, but my Father, who's inheaven.

Speaker 4 (28:36):
That's the revelation of Jesus being the Christ that
causes the new birth and youbecome part of the church and
that's the rock upon which we'rebuilt.
Amen, on that note, ray, thisis why church history is so
important, because we open oureyes and read the scripture and
take into account what weexperience today and then we
read into Scripture what webelieve to be true.
And looking at church historyhelps us better understand
Scripture from outside of ourcultural context.

(28:58):
That's the important of churchhistory.
And going back to kind of whatI was saying earlier, if you
think about it again, I use theword bishop and pope.
Those are actually throughoutmost of church history, yeah,
most of church history, 15, 1600years.
Throughout most of churchhistory, yeah, most of church
history.
15, 1600 years, pope and Bishopwere interchangeable.
Your local church had, yourlocal group of churches had a
Bishop.
You mean Bishop and elder wereinterchangeable.

(29:19):
And Pope, yeah.
So you had a Bishop thatoverseed a collection of
churches and often, as a form ofrespect, you'd call him father,
which is what Pope means.
Pope is a translated word forfather.
It was a sign of respect, andso you had powerful bishops
slash fathers in Alexandria, inAntioch, in Jerusalem, in
Carthage, in Constantinople.

(29:39):
What timeline was that and thisis post.
Well, yeah, it was first three,400 years.
You had these different leadersof churches, right, and the
Roman Pope slash Bishop wasnever considered a higher
authority.
And, as a matter of fact, oneof the biggest arguments
historically against this ideathat, well, they were chief

(30:01):
among many bishops is thereality that the Roman Pope,
which is what they called him atthe time, wasn't even invited
or participated in many, if notall, of the ecumenical councils.
I mean, think about it, if theRoman Pope was who they say he
was, out of seven ecumenicalcouncils, the Pope convened zero

(30:24):
of them.
The Pope wasn't even counseledfor the council of Nicaea in 325
.
The Pope wasn't even invited toConstantinople I in 381.
Moving forward, inConstantinople II, which was in
553, the Pope, the Roman Pope,opposed the Council.

(30:47):
He issued an edict forbiddingthe Council and the emperors,
and the council ignored the Popeof Rome, imprisoned him and
exiled his advisors, removinghis name from official documents
.
And so, in other words, thisidea of, like the Pope, having
authority throughout the earlychurch man historically just

(31:08):
shows you he was the Roman Pope,was just one of many bishops
and often wasn't even counseledfor these really important
theological discussions.
He had no authority over all ofthese conversations that were
happening.

Speaker 1 (31:26):
And here's sorry, go ahead Setting aside scripture,
which is a terrible thing to say, but historically, who was the
first Pope?

Speaker 4 (31:33):
historically.
Yeah well, that's a difficultdiscussion because again there's
revisionist history involved.
I would say what many peoplesay is like the papal
infallibility actually wasn'tdeveloped until 1870, which is
Vatican I and think about that1870.
The United States of America isolder than the papal of
infallibility doctrine, so it'sa relatively new way of looking

(31:56):
at it and what they end up doing.
When they developed the papalof infallibility, they went back
and started revising theirhistorical view going well, if
the Pope is infallible, thenmaybe he was the Pope then and
maybe he and they basicallytraced it all the way back to
Peter.
And there's even here's theweird thing about the papal of
infallibility in 1870 is therewas a lot of dissenters.

(32:19):
Catholic priests and historiansthemselves look back at Vatican
I and say we got it wrong, weovercorrected.
I heard one person put it thisway.
What ended up, to summarizewhat happened over history, is a
lot like what happens with thepresident, if you think about
the president's power andauthority today.

(32:39):
Over the last 250 years, thepresident of the United States
has continually gained more andmore and more power.
The founding fathers neverintended the president of the
United States to have the kindof power and authority that he
has in our country, but thisnaturally happens over any
government.
Any source of authority is thatone who has authority slowly

(33:00):
gains more authority, and sowhat this person said was that's
essentially what happened withthe Roman bishop is that over
time, he continued to acquireauthority until 1870, when they
declared him the infallible folkthat we know today.

Speaker 3 (33:16):
And again, you have to remember when Rome became the
center of the quote unquoteChristian world.
That had massive influence interms of impacting the authority
and preeminence of the Bishopof Rome.
But let me just say that it'sso important to remember that we

(33:41):
can't just go on a proof textwithout it being in the context
of not just its immediatesurroundings but also in the
context of the broader scope ofScripture.
You know I often talk to peopleabout this and you know, for
example, I mean when you look atActs 15, which was the first
believed to be the first churchcouncil in Jerusalem, when they

(34:03):
were talking about the Gentilescoming into the church, if you
really read the text carefully,james, who was really the leader
in Jerusalem, was clearlypreeminent among the apostles
and Peter was there, but Jameswas the one who was really
taking charge there.
So that's important to remember.
But then also again, takingscriptures out of context.
I've shared this before, but alot of times when I'm talking to

(34:25):
cultists and they'll take ascripture out of context and
they'll use it as a proof text,I'll throw things out to them.
For example, when I talk topeople from the International
Church of Christ, I'll say tothem.
Hey, so just real quick, I justwanted to ask you what happens
if someone becomes a disciple?
They get baptized, but thenthey don't have a chance to take

(34:45):
communion before they die.
Man, that's crazy.
Obviously they're not going togo to heaven, they go.
Huh, what are you talking about?
Oh well, jesus said if youdon't eat my flesh and drink my
blood, you have no life in you.
Oh no, no, well, you know whathe's meaning.
Is you know whatever?
And then I'll say oh well, man,what happens to your women?
Like, if they, you know, theybecome disciples, they get
baptized, but they just likethey go.

(35:09):
Oh, first, timothy says sheshall be saved through
childbearing.
Oh no, you know.
Oh well, man, what like.

Speaker 1 (35:17):
I mean, this guy's a funny talker.

Speaker 3 (35:20):
But so, like you must have a lot of relatives that,
like you know, maybe didn't getto heaven because you know, and
get to heaven because youweren't baptized.
For them, what?

Speaker 2 (35:29):
do you mean?

Speaker 3 (35:30):
Oh, and 1 Corinthians talks about being baptized for
the dead.
Oh no, what does this mean?

Speaker 4 (35:38):
We need a whole other episode of just easy arguing
with himself.

Speaker 3 (35:40):
But I love that because again they'll take one
verse you shall be saved throughbaptism.
Oh, that's exactly what they'redoing.

Speaker 1 (35:50):
And the same thing happens, I think, in this
context as the Bible.
It's been said, it's like afiddle you can play any tune you
want with it, and it's true.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
Who said that?
I just said it, but I didn'tmake it up.

Speaker 1 (35:58):
I heard it like 50 years ago.

Speaker 4 (36:00):
You sound sophisticated right, you guys,
this is so important and I think, as we look at church excuse me
as we look at the Bible youknow you mentioned proof texting
, you guys are absolutely rightwhat we need to do is look at
Scripture as God's narrative ofreconciling.
This is a story of Godreconciling the world to himself

(36:20):
, and so often biblicalilliteracy starts with this idea
of just being able to pull onetext out to prove the point that
we want to prove.
But to understand the whole ofscripture helps us really
understand things and, on thatnote, I think the theology and
the progression of a royalpriesthood is super important to
consider.
Talking about the scripture, Ilove what you've been saying.

(36:41):
You've been advocating this forthe last couple of weeks, mark.
It's like let's go back, let'slet the scripture be
authoritative, and so you thinkabout what the high priest is in
the Old Testament.
The first high priest we evercome to experience is Adam.
He is the chief priest, thechief prophet and the chief king
in the Garden of Evil.
Evil, wow, whoa new doctrine.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
I'm leaving now.
Former podcast co-host OscarNavarro.

Speaker 4 (37:09):
The Garden of Eden and what you see is that you see
him abdicating hisresponsibility.
He's the chief prophet.
He names the animals, then heuses his words to essentially
lie to God.
He is the chief priest and thathe's supposed to lead and care
for his wife, and he ends upthrowing here under the
peripheral bus.

(37:30):
He is the chief king in thathe's supposed to have authority
in the garden and he advocatesauthority to the serpent, and so
what happens is he's kicked outand then God separates the role
of prophet, priest and king tomultiple figures.
And so primarily you see thatin Moses and Aaron.
And then one day I believe it's,I don't want to misquote a

(37:55):
priest comes along and he has aprophecy.
He says one day there will be achief prophet, a chief priest
and a chief king one figure.
And of course we know that he'sprophesying Jesus.
Jesus is the chief prophet andthat he did not just say and
speak truth, he said I am theway, the truth and the life.

(38:15):
He is the chief priest in thathe didn't just offer sacrifices,
he was the sacrifice for oursins.
He wasn't just a king, he wasthe chief king that he
established his kingdom on earthas it is in heaven.
Jesus dies, resurrects, and thenwhat happens is really
fascinating.
Pentecost comes, the HolySpirit dwells with the believers

(38:39):
and in 1 Peter, peter himselfcalls all Christians the royal
priesthood.
What he is doing is telling usnow this priesthoodness, this
responsibility that was withAdam, that went through the Old
Testament, that finished withJesus, is now being assigned to

(39:02):
the collective church.
You all have this thing thatwas once had by one person, and
it is a thing that was once hadby one person, and it is a
distortion of the gospel to takewhat Peter intended by the
royal priesthood and reassign itto one person.
It's just a misunderstanding ofthe grand narrative of what we

(39:22):
see in the scriptures.

Speaker 3 (39:23):
Right, amen, yeah, and I want to get into some
scriptures on that note.
But, ray, I just wanted totouch on this real quick with
you.
You know we've referencedbefore that it's not so much
what the Catholic Church affirms, it's what they add, right, so
that there's always addition.
So to the Bible they're addingthe Apocrypha, to grace, they're

(39:46):
adding the sacraments and worksTo Jesus, they're adding the
saints, so there's always anaddition and addition and
addition and ultimately it justand I'd like you to comment on
this it takes people's focus offof Jesus, which is where our
focus should be as our Redeemer.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
Absolutely.
And I've learned something inthe last few years when I've
talked to Catholics is that theydon't understand the gospel.
They understand that Jesus diedfor our sins, but they don't
know what that means.
And to substantiate this, tomake it clear that they don't
understand, I often say topeople when they realize they're
in big trouble, they're headingfor hell.
They believe that Jesus died onthe cross.

(40:27):
I say to them what does thatmean for you?
Now?
That happened 2,000 years ago.
He died on the cross for oursins.
What does that mean?
How can it help you in yourdilemma?
Your under God's wrath, headingfor hell, and they don't know.
And yet he's on the cross infront of them at the church, the
Catholic church.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
I'm doing a cross here and they just don't
understand it.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
And I said well, I want you to listen very
carefully because this is goingto open the eyes of your
understanding, understanding thefact that he died for our sins
so we could be released fromGod's wrath by his righteousness
that's imputed to us.
And it's just.
Catholics are such fertileground.
You know, I've spoken tohundreds, if not thousands, of

(41:12):
Catholics over the years andI've learned when it comes to
these issues.
When someone says I'm a roomCatholic, I've learned to go
deaf.
I deliberately do it.
I learned to go deaf, mark, andby that I mean I do not want to
get drawn into an argument withthem over their church doctrine
because they've got scriptures.
They can, like we're sayingthey can take one text out and

(41:34):
say oh, peter's, the Pope,Mary's this, she's exalted,
she's the mother of God.
I don't want to go in thoseavenues.
I want to take them through thegospel, because the gospel is
the power of God to salvation,which is huge for me, because it
means I don't have to beeloquent when it comes to
Catholic church doctrine andknow it inside out and how to
refute it, because I'm not thatway inclined.
All I have to do is faithfullygive the gospel and leave it up

(41:57):
to God.

Speaker 3 (41:58):
That's so important, Mark, that's a big deal, right?
Because I think a lot of timesmaybe people hear us on the
podcast talking about differentthings we might have knowledge
of and they just think, oh man,I can't talk to cultists or
those in false religions becauseI don't know, but it goes back,
like you're saying, toScripture and the simplicity.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
Yeah, this is the beauty of knowing the text right
.
I mean, how many times I thinkwe've all probably done it when
you get that knock at the doorand you look out and you see
that, oh, it's a Mormon,jehovah's Witness or whoever it
may be, and you dim the lights,get down into army crawl and you
get out of the living roomhoping that they don't know that

(42:35):
you're there and you'rethinking all the while man, I
wish so-and-so was here.
They would be able to answerall of this person's objections
and questions that they're goingto bring up.
But when you know the original,when you're familiar with what
the scripture says, ray hasoften said in the past I don't
want to know what's in the Word,I want to know what's not in
the Word.
How would you explain that?

Speaker 1 (42:51):
Well, it's easy to say that's in the Bible, because
you just need to know one verse.
But to say that's not in theBible, you've got to know the
whole Bible.
And I remember as a brand newChristian, holding a big Bible
in my lap and looking inside.
I want to conquer this.
I want to conquer.
I want to know what's on pay,on every page, so I can say no,

(43:12):
that's not in the bible.
And it's a good thing to beable to do when a, when a, when
a mormon says something you knowis not true, to be able to say
no, that's not true, that's notthe bible.
Or catholic says you knowpurgatory is in the bible.
Say no, it's not and haveauthority because you know it's
not yeah yeah, and it is.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
it's one thing to say I want to conquer the Word, but
I want the Word to conquer me,right, I want you to search me
and try me, see if there'd beany wicked way in me and lead me
in the way everlasting.
And I remember reading a versethat really freed me up, and I'd
like you to expand on this alittle bit, on the blender
analogy of hey, I don't want youto eat.
And the text is that there'sone mediator between God and man

(43:49):
, and that is the man, ChristJesus, that I don't need Mary
praying for me, I don't need togo before the Pope.
People say, well, listen, wedon't revere the Pope.
But then you watch the videosof people that are running
towards where the Pope is at andthrowing their children.
They're absolutely besidethemselves because they do

(44:10):
believe regardless of what youare gonna tell me in private, Mr
Catholic, you do believe thatthe Pope has some sort of
supreme supernatural authoritythat is able to give a blessing
to you that you would not beable to get in any other way.
So when we start talking aboutwell, look it, I don't pray to
saints, it becomes ridiculouswith this.

(44:32):
Would you mind giving thatillustration?

Speaker 3 (44:34):
Yeah, I've shared it before but I think it's worth
sharing again.
But yeah, it comes down to anissue of semantics, because the
Catholics will say we do notworship the saints.
And I do have to say to myChristian friends listening,
it's important to note this andto be accurate in how we speak,
because if you're speaking to aCatholic or a Mormon or
Jehovah's Witness and you're notaccurate with your language,

(44:56):
they'll just lose respect foryou right away.
So it's just important, notthat you know everything, but in
the things you do, study, knowthem well.
So when you say to a Catholicoh you guys, the Catholic Church
teaches that you should worshipMary, you should worship the
saints, well, actually theydon't.
In their dogma they teach thatwe only worship God.
But they say we venerate thesaints, we venerate mary.

(45:18):
So they use that word to say wedon't worship, we venerate.
Okay, but that's like thisexample I give your doctor tells
you you have surgery tomorrow,so you have to fast today all
day.
No, you cannot eat any solids.
You go, okay, no problem, doc.
So you go home, you grab somechicken, you grab some meat, you
grab some vegetables, you throwthem in a blender.

Speaker 4 (45:37):
Something's wrong with your blender.

Speaker 3 (45:40):
Get a new blender, you blend it up and then you
take this glorious beverage andyou drink it.
Is there a problem with this?
Yeah, no problem, so the nextday you go to the doctor, he
does an ultrasound to make sureyour stomach's clear before
surgery and he sees it filled.
He goes.
Wait a minute.
I told you you can't eat anysolids, oh no, no, no, doctor, I
didn't eat, I drank, right,semantics, semantics.

(46:02):
No, we don't worship, wevenerate.
Okay, well, just tell me, whatdo you call bowing down before
lighting candles, to burningincense, to kissing, making a
statue, of talking, to carryingaround on your shoulders, like,
if that's not worship, what is?

Speaker 2 (46:20):
And that is, in fact, that is the exact definition of
what worship is.
It means to bow down and tokiss, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (46:27):
So call it whatever you want, but let's call it the
truth, yeah.
And then you go from there andthen you give titles like
co-redemptrix man I shudder as Ieven utter those words.
You give titles likeco-redemptrix man.
I shudder as I even utter thosewords.
Co-redemptrix, that means aco-redeemer in the female sense,
to a person other than Christ.
Like that's serious stuff.
And Mary ascended too.
Yeah, the Immaculate Conceptionand then also Mary's Ascension.

(46:49):
It's just there's a lot therethat people need to step back
and say wait a minute.
Look, I remember still as aCatholic young boy I went to the
evangelical church with myfriend and it just immediately
clicked in my mind.
I wasn't saved yet, but they'relike man.
Like it was one sentence weshouldn't pray to anyone but God
.
And I was like ooh.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
And it was like, of course, Like it just made sense.

Speaker 3 (47:13):
Of course, you don't pray to anyone but God, no
matter what status people givethem or how great they were
historically.
Like you're talking about afinite being versus the infinite
God of the universe and you'regonna attribute to that person
omniscience and omnipresence,like that's insanity.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
One of my favorite aunts she's the one that rode on
the motorbike with the Catholicwho had one lady missing.
They went skydiving together,and he is a whiskey-drinking
Catholic and a very likable guy.
His name was Joe.
Anyway, my aunt was verystaunch.
I don't know why staunch goeswith Catholic, but she was very
staunch.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
She was a committed Catholic.

Speaker 1 (47:52):
She got a mass in the middle of the night and stuff
like that.
Her husband died, my uncle Pat,and she came around to our
house and she was just chattingaway and she says when I talk to
Pat, and I said you don't talkto the dead, and I said he's not
omnipresent, he's not followingyou around and waiting for you
to say something to him.

(48:12):
Only God is omniscient, notyour husband.
And I thought I'd offended her.
But the next day she gave me athousand dollar check Send her
my love.

Speaker 3 (48:22):
You need to tell more Catholics that right yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:25):
Yeah, but that's what they're saying.
When someone dies and theyoften say yeah, I challenge them
and say does he follow youaround?
Yeah, so when you're in a planeflying to France, is he in the
plane or outside the window?

Speaker 2 (48:40):
looking in flying with you.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
Which one is it?
And they get all a bit confused.
Someone has even said he'soutside the window because he's
kind of like God looking in yeah, because there's no thought
given to it.

Speaker 3 (48:53):
And again, that's another element of it You're
talking to the dead.
That's necromancy, that'sunbiblical.
And then also, again, you'reattributing omnipresence to that
saint, because the millions ofpeople all around the world
praying to that same saint atthe same time, and he or she are
hearing every prayer.

(49:13):
When you pause to think aboutit, you realize, wow, this
cannot, this can't be right, youknow, so, yeah.
So here's some verses, I think,that are good for you friends to
look into deeper.
But I think that give goodindication that Peter was not
the head of the church andthere's not one man who is the
head of the church Ephesians 1,22 to 23,.

(49:33):
And he put all things under hisfeet and gave him Christ to be
head over all things to thechurch Colossians 1, 18,.
And he is the head of the body,the church, that in all things
he may have the preeminence.
And you see Peter in 1 Peter 5,1 to 3, he says the elders who
are among you, I exhort, I whoam a fellow elder".

(49:54):
And then he talks about not asbeing lords over those entrusted
to you.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
There were two Peters .
Did you know that?
Two Peters, yeah, first Peterand second Peter.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
That checks out.
I should have known.

Speaker 3 (50:06):
I should have known.
So, yeah, those things areextremely key and important to
remember.
And then you see Peter.
You see Peter, you know alsohaving to be confronted
Galatians 2, where Paulconfronts him to his face.
He was compromising the gospel.
It says he was to be blamed.
And so you know, those thingsare important for us to note as

(50:32):
well and recognize that, really,that comes down, at times, to
worshiping man rather than God.
And so, mark, what do you sayto a Catholic who says to you
but man, this is my church, thisis what I grew up with, this is
what my dad and my grandfatherand generations of my family I

(50:55):
can't just walk away Because Iwant to speak to those right now
listening, because I know wehave Catholics listening.
What would you say to them?

Speaker 2 (51:02):
Well, scripture compares our love for God to be
hatred towards our brothers,towards our family and towards
anything and everything else.
Not that we are to hate ourbrothers, but our love for God
should be so great that it makesour love and our affection
towards anything and everythingelse seem like hatred.
When my brother Mike got savedduring COVID, the way he

(51:22):
explained his salvation to mewas because we grew up Catholic.
He said it was as if I was ableto skip the line and go to the
front.
That's what Christianity did.
Skip the line and go to thefront, that's what Christianity
did.
That was his way of trying tomake sense of grace.
Right, you really mean I don'thave to do anything?
Somebody worded it like thisgrace is heaven's anthem sung

(51:46):
over sinners who deserve silence.
Grace is heaven's anthem sungover sinners who deserve silence
.
When Christ invades your lifeand sets a person free, you are
free, indeed right that the Sonof man came to seek and save

(52:08):
that which is lost, that thereis nothing that you can do to
earn and merit the smile of God.
When a Catholic comes up to themicrophone, when I'm opening or
preaching, or when I'm out onthe street and I find out that
they're Catholic, I well up withexcitement and the first thing
I tell them is man, I have suchgreat and freeing news for you

(52:31):
here right now, because grace isGod's unmerited favor to the
infinitely ill-deserving.
I'm not out here to gain God'sacceptance.
I'm not here to serve him, tomake him smile.
He smiles because of whatChrist did and I serve him
because I am accepted solelybased upon what Jesus did.

(52:54):
We get to skip the line becauseof what Christ did.
We get to the front of the line.
We get VIP access.
Christ is the password and thebridge between man and God that
you don't need to strive anymore.
This is what Jesus did when hedied on the cross and he said it
is finished, paid in full.
Tell the TSI, it is done.

(53:15):
He put money inside the till sothat you have access to the
Father, never wondering orworried if he's going to squash
you because you did thathorrific thing, whatever that is
, or you didn't do that thing,as great as it is.
That's what grace is and that'swhat awaits the Catholic or the

(53:40):
Episcopalian or the Mormon orthe Jehovah's Witness who says
I'm ready to come to Christ onHis terms.
What are the terms?
Grace alone, faith alone asfound in Scripture, alone to the
glory of God, alone, andsomething else?
Alone To God, alone To theglory of God, alone To the glory
of God, alone, right, so that'swhat it is, man.
It's such freedom, such freedom, and that's what grace does.

Speaker 3 (54:02):
Amen.
You know, Ray.
I wanted to ask you if you getthe same sense I do, because no
religious leader on the planetcan garner more attention, more
media currency than the Pope.
I mean, no one even comes close, okay, Taylor Swift.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
Mr T at one time Mr T he was the ultimate Fonz.

Speaker 3 (54:24):
But, ray, do you share in Fonz?
Oh the Fonz, hey cool.
Do you share in my experienceof utter frustration, because I
can't count how many occasionswhere the Pope whether it's
Easter or it's Christmas or it'ssome kind of special occasion
he's got probably maybe a couplebillion people around the world
watching him and he stands upand does not preach the gospel.

(54:47):
I'm like, oh, like to tell likeit's always, it's always chants
, it's always ritual, it'salways there's no like you need
to repent and turn to Christ,does that?
oh, it totally frustrates me howdo you feel about it?
I?

Speaker 1 (55:00):
have dreams of the media looking at the balcony and
suddenly someone grabs thePope's sleeve and pulls him down
and stands up in his place,because it's such a he could
dress you up, ray, in a Popeoutfit.
It really is such a simplemessage Like this morning.
I was around at the college andI discerned two people didn't
have enough personality to comeon camera.

(55:22):
I could have filmed them, butit would have just been thrown
to the side because they had nocolor to their character.
So I gave them the gospel, bothof them off camera.
And it was such an easy thingto do and only took two or three
minutes because I'd gonethrough it in my mind and the
Pope could do the easy thing todo.
And only took two or threeminutes because I'd gone through
it in my mind and the popecould do the same thing to
billions of people just simplysay this is god's standard of

(55:42):
holiness lust is adultery,hatred is murder, lying lips and
abomination to the lord.
All lies will be apart in thelake of fire.
Hell is very real, but god'swritten mercy provided a savior
and when jesus suffered and diedon the cross, he took the
punishment for our sins.
We don't have to do anything.
It's all been done, it isfinished.
He rose from the dead, defeatedthe greatest enemy, and if you

(56:03):
repent today that's notconfession to a priest get
before God, truly turn from sin,trust in Jesus.
God will grant you everlastinglife as a free gift.
All because of His amazinggrace.
All because of his amazinggrace.
Thank you, folks.
A little wave and he's off.
It's a very simple thing to do.

Speaker 3 (56:16):
I mean, it's like Paul, sorry.
It's like Paul standing infront of Herod and Agrippa, or
Herod, agrippa and the others.
It's like Paul on Mars Hill.
It's like Peter on the day ofPentecost.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
Man preach the gospel to those who had murdered Jesus
.
So he was taking a great riskbecause he loved them.

Speaker 4 (56:36):
Ray, we can probably hide you in that hat of his.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
They could fall down and disappear.

Speaker 3 (56:41):
Say where's Ray gone?
Martin Luther said the Pope isnot, according to divine right,
the head of the Christian church.
Spurgeon said Christ is thehead of the church, not the Pope
, nor any other man.
Christ needs no vicar, jc Ryle.
The idea of a Pope is utterlyforeign to the Bible.
There is no trace of it in theNew Testament, rc Sproul.

(57:02):
There is not one shred ofbiblical evidence for the office
of the papacy.
Francis Schaeffer, hierarchy inthe church that undermines the
authority of Scripture isrebellion.
Wow, and I'll finish off withJohn MacArthur Peter was not a
Pope.
The idea of a Pope isanti-biblical.
Christ is the head of thechurch, not any man.
So yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:22):
You see, we touched on William Tyndale earlier on
and I think we need to pause fora minute and think of the
sacrifice that he gave for thescriptures.
He was burned at the stake.
They mercifully strangled himto death before they put them to
death.
But ask yourself, why would theCatholic Church put a man to
death who wanted to make thescriptures available to the
common people?
And it's because the scripturesexpose Rome for what it is that

(57:46):
it's not the true church, and Iencourage any Catholic who
wants the truth just read theBible.
Don't join my church, Don'tfollow me.
Just open up the New Testamentand read the Bible.
Don't join my church, Don'tfollow me.
Just open up the New Testamentand read what the scriptures say
.
And be as the brains and searchthe scriptures and see if these
things are so.

Speaker 3 (58:02):
Amen, yeah, and look, I think too it's important to
look back on the history of alot of the popes, which often
isn't done, and these aren'tjust like Protestant sources.
I mean, a lot of these areCatholic sources.
I'd encourage people to checkout Saints and Sinners by Eamon
Duffy, who's a Catholic and whoconceded some of the corruption
with the popes.
And look, we can look and say,obviously, just because someone

(58:25):
was corrupt, that doesn't meanthe teachings are false per se.
We can look in Christianitythere have been adulterers who
have been pastors.
There have been pedophiles.
That have been on and on.
You can go right, but when youascribe such authority and a
position of such preeminence,you would think this is like.
This guy is special, he's God'sman.
But you look at some of thepopes.

(58:46):
You know Alexander VI bribery,murder, adultery, nepotism.
He was a politician.
John VII murder, incest, orgies,blasphemy.
Benedict IX sold papacysexually depraved.
On and on, without goingthrough the whole list, but

(59:08):
there's been so much throughoutthe ages of popes that have been
corrupt in massive ways.

Speaker 4 (59:18):
Richard Price is a Catholic historian and he
summarizes the drama Because oneof the things that it's often
thought of is like well, thepopes throughout history has
been given to the church by God.
But he talks about how some ofthese people were like
committing murder to become thePope, and he summarizes this

(59:38):
quote.
He says it is clear that theytrust each other so little they
felt the need for an oath soshameful that it had to be kept
secret.
This lowered the relationsbetween the head of the state
and the primate of the church tothe level of a deal between
gangsters.
He like compares the popes tobeing just like this gangster
society of trying to gaincontrol.

Speaker 3 (01:00:01):
Yeah, and then you look, even the most recent Pope
Francis, who, in alltransparency, was controversial
among Catholics themselves.
Some Catholics didn't agreewith this, but again, the head
of the church affirmingevolution, talking about and
there are, there are quotes fromthis.
There's sources to all this.
God created homosexuals the waythey are, same-sex blessings

(01:00:21):
being permitted, whateverqualifications are given like
this is huge.
Lgbtq plus inclusion in synods,transgender support signals,
interfaith prayers with Muslims,hindus and pagans, global
fraternity over biblical truth,climate, gospel confusion I mean
so much there.
When you mine these things, yourealize this is not light stuff

(01:00:44):
.
Saying this is the head of thechurch who propagated these
things.
So, friends, again, we hope youhear our hearts.
We love our Catholic friends.
We must speak truth.
We love our Catholic friends.
We must speak truth.
Look, compassion does not equalcompromise.
Compassion in its true formmust speak truth, because if
we're not really compassionatetoward people, then we don't
care whether they're in thetruth or not, and if people

(01:01:07):
aren't in the truth, they don'thave everlasting life.
And so we hope you get this.
This is just surface leveltreatment of this.
We don't have the time to go indepth, but I encourage you,
believers, examine theScriptures to see if these
things are.
So, be a Berean and study andread and speak the truth.
And for those of you listeningwho are Catholics, may you turn
to Christ and believe the truegospel.

(01:01:28):
You have the true Christ now.
Receive the true gospel.
That salvation is a gift thatis given by God to those who
have violated his law.
If you've stolen once, you're athief.
You've lied once, you're a liar.
If you've looked with lust,you're an adulterer.
You've used God's name in vain,you're a blasphemer.
You've had unjust anger orhatred in your heart, you're
guilty of murder.
In the sight of God, it'sthrough the death and
resurrection of Christ, that oneyou've seen on that crucifix

(01:01:50):
time and again, who died androse again, who could set you
free.
But you must come to him inrepentance and faith and receive
that free gift.
So thank you.
That's all no silliness.
Podcast at livingwaterscom withyour thoughts and your
suggestions and ideas, andremember to check out
livingwaterscom for all ourresources.
Thanks for joining us.
We'll see you here next time onthe Living Waters podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
I think the next time was a bit silly.
Next time, next time.