August 28, 2025 • 62 mins
In a world obsessed with self-discovery and identity, Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar address the growing belief that we must look inward to define who we are. The guys challenge this cultural message directly, pointing listeners toward the true source of identity and emphasizing that our longing for meaning, worth, and purpose cannot be fulfilled by fleshly desires or self-exploration. Turning inward often results in confusion, depression, and a false sense of identity that ultimately leads to despair. Defining yourself apart from your Creator is not only futile but also a new form of legalism. True identity is not something we achieve but something we receive, and that reception begins with knowing the Lord.
There is a foundational truth that you cannot truly know who you are until you understand your origin, as clearly shown in Genesis. The guys explain that people are not random molecules in motion but are created in the image of God. Mark recalls a conversation with his brother, who was struggling to share Jesus with his son. It is in these moments that believers need to revisit the essential questions about identity, origin, and purpose. Oscar outlines three practical ways to know yourself: know God, know your deficiencies, and know how deeply God loves you. True self-awareness begins with God-awareness, and as we encounter His glory, our blind spots are revealed, and our need for Christ becomes evident.
The guys also warn about the subtle shifts that can happen—one day walking with the Lord and the next falling into sin. The world encourages us to love ourselves more and pursue our true identity, but scripture calls us to surrender. Oscar highlights a sermon where a woman searching for her identity realized her sense of self could never be fully achieved, only received through Christ. Knowing ourselves as believers includes understanding our strengths, weaknesses, and idols. Several of the guys share how certain things in their lives can easily become idols and how they rely on the Lord instead of external things. Every intense emotion can reveal a more profound love, one that may be misplaced. When those idols are exposed, we are called to dismantle them and enthrone Christ. The guys invite listeners to examine themselves honestly—not with despair, but with hope. Christ is our help and our freedom.
In solitude and surrender, we discover who we truly are: redeemed, adopted, and loved. It is not about self-obsession but about submitting to God's will as Jesus did. By laying down our lives, we find them. By letting Christ live through us, we shine His light in a dark and dying world.
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Visit the Living Waters website to learn more and to access helpful resources!
You can find helpful counseling resources at biblicalcounseling.com.
Check out The Evidence Study Bible and the Basic Training Course.
You can connect with us at podcast@livingwaters.com. We're thankful for your input!
Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is probably the most important one.
To know yourself is to know howGod loves you, to know that God
knows all of your flaws.
He knows you better thananybody else and yet through the
cross, he still loves you.
It reminds me of a Packer quote, and before I get there it's
like.
To know God's love is to notjust know Him as Lord or judge
(00:23):
or master or commander he isnothing less than those things
in your life.
But to know God as father is toknow him through the lens of
the gospel, to know that youhave been saved and adopted and
called sons and daughters.
That's Packer's quote.
(00:43):
Adoption is the highestprivilege of the gospel.
The traitor is forgiven,brought in for supper and given
a family name.
To be right with God, the judge, is a great thing, but to be
loved and cared for by God, thefather, is greater.
To know yourself through thelens of a loving father is what
(01:05):
we need most.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
R-E-S-P-E-C-T Find out what it means to me
R-E-S-P-E-C-T.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
Find out what it means to me Wow, was that high,
was that good?
High octaves, can we?
Speaker 1 (01:26):
fix that in post.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
No.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
We had a peacock come to our house.
I will always sing with you.
It doesn't sound very much likethat.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
You know, I have to admit, Ray Peacock sounds are
probably some of the mostmiserable.
I don't know why it makes mefeel miserable.
They are weird.
The same with wind chimes, Ihate wind chimes.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Oh no, I don't like them.
They're sad.
Seriously, yes, thank you.
I'm nostalgic.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Rachel and I were walking recently.
Well, when we walk by thiscertain spot, it has a lot of
wind chimes and it just makes mefeel sick.
Yeah, you don't like themeither.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
No, it's nostalgic.
It's the sort Someone getsmurdered and the only thing
doing in the background is thechime, and one of our neighbors
put one up, so we've got onepermanently in our backyard.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Oh no, I'm going to shoot it down.
So who shot that down?
That really surprises me.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I thought I was the only one that hates wind, chimes
, no, no, I don't like them.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
You like them, Oscar.
You don't know what they are.
I'm indifferent to them you are.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
What I love, though, is we have owls in our
neighborhood, and at night,super early in the morning, you
can hear them hooing, and I loveto hear that.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I couldn't give a hoot.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
It's like, that's like.
No, it's better than that.
It's peaceful.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
What they're doing is asking a question who, who, who
did it Answer the?
Speaker 4 (02:37):
owl.
I love owls actually.
I was.
Oh, that reminds me I was in myold neighborhood the other day.
You and I were talking aboutthat right Nostalgia.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
When you go to places .
Speaker 4 (02:47):
I was in my old neighborhood where I grew up,
went to the elementary school Iwent to, looked at the roof that
I fell off when I was a kid.
Is that what happened?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
to you.
That's what happened.
Or pushed somebody off?
Speaker 4 (02:56):
That's what happened.
Went to where we lived and Igot emotional, but I got
emotional.
But, I went to my old juniorhigh and it was called McGarvin
Owls in Westminster.
I thought owls are like coolbirds they really are.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
They fly beautifully.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Yeah, I watched a thing where they were shown they
make no sound when they fly andhad to do with their feathers.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Can you make no sound ?
Speaker 4 (03:22):
It's a beautiful no sound.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
That's how they copied the stealth from the owl.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
And the peregrine falcon or something.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Yes, yeah, the shape of it.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
But yeah, owls, and the way they turn their head too
.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Is that what you think it sounds like?
Speaker 4 (03:44):
But who came up?
Speaker 3 (03:45):
with the.
Is it illegal to have an owl asa pet?
I?
Speaker 1 (03:49):
don't think so.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
I bet it is in California Because I looked into
it.
I looked into getting a skunkas illegal.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
Why would that?
They consider it like a hawk oreagle.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Can you imagine EZ doing one of those National
Geographic things where he'slike the owl turns its neck?
Speaker 4 (04:06):
I would love that.
Yeah, difference, no.
But imagine, think of this,think of my voice, listen, watch
, no, think, listen.
Okay, we're ready.
The owl turns its neck.
It started off well.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
I mean like before you started to talk it was good
Between clearing your throat andspeaking.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
It was perfect which you should illustrate how they
can be silent I love that sound,so anyway why did I sing?
Speaker 4 (04:36):
because I have a whole new level of respect for
those poor guys that work onjackhammers oh yeah and and
those, those you know, pieces ofequipment that make those
incessant sounds because theyare destroying our building
right now I wonder if ajackhammer burns calories ah,
(04:58):
there goes the bike you'll seeray running bouncing around,
doing both with sam.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
You imagine jackhammer Bouncing around, do
them both.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
With Sam On the handlebars On a jackhammer.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Oh boy, that would be it.
I want a chainsaw.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Oh, no, no, no chainsaws and, like I said
yesterday, no nail guns.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
For you, oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Ray saw them working On the building here and the guy
was using A nail gun.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Oh yeah, be nice, and I said no, nothing gas powered
or plugged in, you were notallowed to touch power tools.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
I'd like to be in charge of dynamite, oh boy.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
But yeah, like I was saying, you guys all know my
head seriously felt like it wasgoing to blow up this morning
because they're chipping stuffaround the building.
I thought imagine having tolisten to that all day and be on
the other end of that.
You know the vibrations on yourbody.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
You get home and your wife says what'd you do today,
honey Dude, it's so bad in myoffice because they're working
on that wall and it's paper andit just sounds like the hammer
and stuff is right here.
It's crazy, oh crazy.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
So they stopped the podcast.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Yeah, I hope, oh yeah , and then we're going to keep
going.
Yeah, so anyway.
R-e-s-p-e-c-t.
Ray, can you sing that for usplease?
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yeah, I could Nobody's heard me sing, except
my wife, no, that's true.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
I wouldn't let anyone hear me.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
From the age of 13,.
I don't sing, I whistleSeriously.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
You know I whistle when I'm in church.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
You're a great whistler right, because it's
awful say on a hill far awayyeah, okay, request to sing on a
hill, and I always see when Ising, tears come to people's
eyes.
Oh, it's beautiful stop.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
Yeah, all right, friends, time for a cool, classy
comment.
This is from hunter hardellbiden senior it's hunter biden
blank blank, blainey blankhunter hardell from Sioux Falls,
south Dakota.
It's a great place, sioux Falls.
Love the podcast, have found itvery edifying in my faith and
(06:50):
it has helped me grow indiscernment.
It is nice having a group ofdoctrinally sound,
gospel-focused men.
Easy is an inspiration.
I spent 22 years an addict andhearing his testimony from
gangster to Wheezy Grandpa ishelpful.
Ray's an inspiration towardmissions.
Oscar's level-headedness andperspective is refreshing and
(07:12):
Mark's deep knowledge ofscripture and conviction is very
helpful.
Thanks, brothers.
He put it in quote.
I assumed he meant brothers,brothers.
Thank you, hunter, and I'msorry that they added Biden to
your name.
That was very rude of Ray.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Ray, what?
I don't know what's going on.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
And now a radically revolutionary resource.
This podcast is brought to youby the School of Biblical
Evangelism Online school andtextbook, of which, by the way,
by the way.
By the way, by the way, by theway, mark Spence Is a co-author.
Mark, people Forget that you'rean author, so do.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
I I figured you do.
On a different note, I miss thepastries.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
That Oscar used to bring in Wait, wait, wait.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Where are the pastries?
Oscar, remember when he used todo that and used to love us.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Yeah yeah, oscar.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
Why does this go up?
Speaker 1 (08:04):
all the time I actually bring it in for the
staff and I tell them to hide itfrom you guys.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
You get an alien.
Do like Dunkin' Donuts orsomething.
Oscar, that would be reallygood yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Dunkin' Donuts.
I should bring it in thesidecar one day.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Yes, yeah, yeah, so the School of Biblical
Evangelism.
So we got the online school.
What is it now, mark?
Speaker 3 (08:28):
You know, a fast food place that sells donuts that
you hook with your car as youdrive through would be a really
good one.
What is happening here?
Speaker 4 (08:37):
Yeah, so check that out.
Yeah, 22,000 people have gonethrough the School of Biblical
Evangelism online, and thetextbook is also a great
resource 101 lessons that equipyou, Mark.
One of the things I love aboutit is it gives challenges.
Give us some samples.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
You have to share the gospel with your neighbors the
one on either side of you.
If you want to graduate fromthe course, we kind of throw you
out onto the water and make youswim or die, right?
Speaker 4 (09:02):
All right, there goes zero sales.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I was just gonna say we challenge you in a good way,
we want to prod you right.
What is the true definition ofcomforter?
The spirit.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Oh, you're encouraged to provoke when you witness to
your neighbors.
We're just saying make a paperplane with this gospel track and
throw it over the fence.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, and you have to share the gospel with a
salesman or somebody whoapproaches you.
You have to hand out like 100gospel tracts.
But the idea is, listen, wedon't want to just fatten you up
with knowledge, we want you onthe front lines, ready for
battle.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
We want to turn the fat to muscle.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Oh that's good, right Is that original Yep Plagiarism
.
That's original Pride.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Yeah, that's my choice.
It's either plagiarism or pride.
I'll just say I'll stay silentin the future.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Yeah, friends, check that out.
Don't forget the living wateris much from which you can chug,
and the evidence study.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Bible.
It's coming out in real leatherreal soon.
How excited are you about that?
That's terrific.
I feel sorry for the cows.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Moo Moo, it's for the sake of the Word of God, and
over here.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Silly question.
Perhaps when we say leather, isthat always cows?
Speaker 3 (10:16):
It could be bulls, or it can be any bull.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
We made leather.
That's leather.
What does the word leather mean?
Speaker 3 (10:23):
So what about owl feather Bible cover?
Owl feather leather, that'sleather.
Huh yeah, what does?
Speaker 1 (10:25):
the word leather mean .
So what about owl feather Biblecover?
Owl feather leather.
Who would make owl featherleather?
No one will know you'recarrying a Bible, it's so quiet.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
All right, friends, don't forget that.
And don't forget Living WatersTV, where you can not only hear
us but see us.
And remember the podcastYouTube channel.
It's growing.
Get all that good stuff atlivingwaterscom.
Ooh, you're welcome, oscar.
That was special today.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
It's weird how you can mimic crazy, crazy sounds.
It is funny.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
It's really easy no talent whatsoever needed, no pun
intended, easy.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
All right, friends, let's get to it.
Come on, let's do it.
We've got a goal ahead of us.
We'll pursue it.
We gotta get it done and we'llhave fun, and me and my homies
and we're all on the run.
Run.
Yeah, oscar dj style I mean.
Yeah, all right, friends, todaywe are talking about how to
know yourself that's rap side.
This is non-rap this is talent,non-talent, this is like a war
(11:23):
between us.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yeah, I was shocked the other day that you were
surprised that I knew theBeatles.
Yeah, yeah, that's prettyshocking.
We've got a.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Beatles million coming out because Paul
McCartney is coming to the USand having 14 concerts in
different places around thecountry.
At 80 what 80.
Oh boy.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
I hope he makes it.
I thought he was in his 70s, 84?
No, he's in his 80s.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
He was in his 70s about a decade ago.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
Was he in his 60s two decades ago?
Yep.
What about three decades ago?
Yeah, three or four.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Four Stumpies.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
How could anyone go there?
Yeah, so today, friars, I wantto say how to know thyself.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Oh, why didn't you say that I didn't know what we
were talking about?
Now you say thyself.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
How to know thyself, king, jimmy Thyself.
Yeah, this is an interestingtopic that I believe.
Oscar recommended it was yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
Oscar's into knowing himself.
That's his passion in life.
But this might sound weird tothe ears of some of our friends,
Like what do you mean knowyourself?
Speaker 3 (12:25):
It sounded weird to me.
I had to call you and saywhat's this about?
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Yeah.
So, oscar, why don't youintroduce this subject to us and
what do we mean by?
Know thyself.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah, I think it's a valuable subject because, while
you know, depending on whatgeneration you grew up in, that
might not be that appealing toyou, that idea, but the younger
generations are definitelyasking that question how do I
know myself?
You may hear people talk aboutit as the authentic self, to
become who you were meant to be.
It's a pursuit that many youngpeople are taking on now, and we
(13:01):
can listen to that language andreject it entirely, or we can
listen to that language andrecognize the longing of their
heart and redirect that longingto knowing God, and so one of
the first ways that you hearpeople starting exploring this,
especially coming out of highschool and into college, one of
the ways they say I need to knowmyself, is to reject the
(13:23):
community they grew up in.
This is like the beginning ofdeconstructionism.
If you grew up in the church, Ineed to know myself, and in
order to do that I need to tearoff all authority because that's
holding me back, which isinteresting because historically
you looked to family to knowwho you were.
If your father was a carpenterand your great grandfather was a
(13:45):
carpenter, you looked to thatfamily lineage and you knew I
must be a carpenter, but nowit's like if I grew up in a
Christian home.
I need to reject what my familysays about me to go discover
who I really am.
In other words, historically wewere told to look outside of us
to discover who we are, and now, in modernity, we're told to
(14:07):
look inside of us to discoverwho we really are.
And so that, without presentingany solutions so far, that's
the problem.
That's the false gospel thatyou might know yourself by
looking in, and of course weknow.
The gospel tells us that wearen't to look around us, we
aren't to look inside of us.
We are to look above us, to ourcreator, to our maker, to know
(14:30):
who we really are.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
So is that a new age?
Speaker 1 (14:33):
question.
It could be categorized as thatyeah, a phrase that we use, by
David David Belah, I think washis name.
He categorizes it as expressiveindividualism, that basically,
to become to know who you weremeant to be, to find identity
and worth in your life.
You look inside rather thanoutside.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
So you come up with nothing after a lifetime.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
That's exactly what's happening actually, ray.
It's interesting that you saythat, because we've talked about
this before in the podcast.
It's fascinating to me that themore we look inside of
ourselves I know there's a lotof complexity to depression and
anxiety, but think about this.
Over and over again, we'retelling people look inside
yourself, discover who you are.
And historically we found valuein big things, things that were
(15:20):
so much bigger than us, whetherit was nation or family or God.
Those things have a greatfoundation, a historical
foundation.
But now we look inside ofourselves and we define
ourselves based off of ourdesires, our sexuality or these
new communities that we'rehaving, and so what ends up
happening is that these kids arelooking inside of themselves
(15:43):
and often in their moment ofloneliness, they're thinking to
themselves I'm worthless, I'm anobody, I'm a contradiction, I
don't follow my own rules orlaws or morals.
If anybody ever knew howselfish I am, how uncertain I am
, how self-harming I am, thenthey would know I'm a fraud.
In other words, to tellsomebody go out there and define
(16:07):
who you really are, that'sactually a new form of legalism.
It's something we're trying tosave ourselves by defining
ourselves.
And you were not meant you haveno power to define who you are,
but God has done that for youand he can give you more worth
and value in this life than youcould ever give yourself.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
So isn't it a contradiction to the
evolutionary theory?
The whole world says you'renothing.
You came from explosion, You'vegot no meaning or purpose.
So why do we say go and findyourself.
That's a great point.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Yeah, I think there's this journey that leads people
where I think ultimately itshould lead them, but the sad
tragedy is that they aren'tlooking, at the end of the day,
to the right place.
You know, we were just talkingabout someone earlier, a
well-known personality who's inthe chef world, on television,
(17:05):
and Mark was just sharing thatshe committed suicide.
You know, that kind of futilityis ultimately where it leads,
especially when it's combinedwith the nihilistic worldview of
like you have really no valuein essence.
You have no real worth as aperson because you are, you're
just, you know.
And they start getting into thesize of the universe and its
(17:26):
scope.
And what are you?
You're just a speck.
Oh yeah, I am.
So people start indulging in allthese things and end up
destroying themselves.
So I think self-explorationshould ultimately lead us to
dissatisfaction with who we are,so that it leads us to Christ,
who can regenerate us and turnus into a new creation.
But what happens is people getto that.
(17:46):
They explore themselves andthey realize whoa, I'm trusting
me, I know all my weaknesses andmy depravity and my thoughts,
but then at the end of the day,they feel hopeless because they
don't know what the solution isto that and, mark, that's the
gospel.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yeah, greg Kokel said the world tells us that we are
just molecules in motion andthat we are just matter.
And if we're just matter, thenwe don't really matter.
We don't really have a purposeand a plan here on earth.
And it makes sense why, whenyou become depressed, when
things seem to go against you,that you just want to check out,
(18:25):
because we are taught from avery early age that we are just
these molecules in motion, thisprotoplasm, making a decision.
That is neither right nor wrong, it's just a decision.
I had a sibling call meyesterday and said Mark, I just
(18:46):
want to thank you for not givingup on me Wow, you're cracking
up.
And he said you know I wasn't aneasy one, easy brother to get
along with, and you continuallyshared the gospel.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
So this is one that became a Christian.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
This is yeah, it's one of my.
And he said I'm trying to passit on to my kids, but they don't
want to hear it and I see thevalue in putting that into the
kids at a very early age.
And now my kids are all movedout.
And he said my stepdaughterwants to get baptized this
(19:29):
Sunday.
I don't know what to say.
I don't know how to lead.
I don't know how to lead myfamily.
I don't know what to do.
Can I have some input from youand my son?
All I want to do right now istalk to him about Jesus.
But I'm a work in progress.
I'm trying to learn and I don'tknow what to say.
I don't know what to do andwhen I do bring up Jesus, we
(19:51):
will go months without talking.
I don't know what to say.
Help me out.
And I said well, you can ask himquestions that we all wrestle
with.
You know how did I get here?
And now that I'm here, why am Ihere?
And I know that this isn't all.
(20:13):
There is that I've been createdfor more right.
So what is the meaning of life?
What's going to happen to mewhen I die?
And maybe you can find a way into reason with him, to have him
critically think through hisown worldview as to the meaning
of life.
Where do you find your identity?
Right, here we are.
How do you know yourself?
(20:33):
And I think that this is goingto resonate right to Oscar's
point, because I think that thisgeneration, this generation,
that this, uh, generation ofthis modern time modernity is
the word that oscar used thatthey cannot escape.
Even when they fall asleep,they will ask these questions
what is going on?
Is it really us versus them?
(20:54):
And why?
If there's no meaning, wellthen why is it us against them?
And then it just becomes ayelling match.
You know, you'll neverunderstand your identity until
you start with your origin, andthis is where Genesis 127 comes
in.
So God created man in his ownimage.
You were created with a purposeand with a plan to know your
maker.
This is nothing new.
(21:15):
This has been argued anddiscussed since the beginning of
time.
Augustine he said in his bookSoliloquies, or book one, he
said grant Lord that I may knowmyself, that I may know thee.
In other words, you cannottruly know who God is until you
recognize who you are.
(21:36):
And that's where the law of God, the commandments, come into
play.
Have you ever come into theplace where you said man, I
can't believe I did that sin.
Or when we hear of a pastorfalling into sexual sin or he
dipped into the benevolent fund,we begin to think how dare he?
Paul Washer said the only reasonwhy there's not eight billion
Adolf Hitlers walking thisplanet is because of God's grace
(21:57):
and mercy.
You and I are both capable ofdoing the exact same thing or
much worse.
When you get to realize thatthere's no good thing that
dwells within you, that yourheart is deceitful and
desperately wicked, above allthings, you are capable of that
and much worse.
Why haven't you God'ssustaining grace upon a society
that has snubbed its noseagainst God?
(22:18):
You want to know yourself.
You must know yourself in lightof the commandments, and then
you turn to Christ and you canlive.
That's the ultimate solution.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
I love it, Mark.
Do you know that?
That Augustine quote is thereason why, after I reading that
, I texted EZ and was like weneed to do a podcast on knowing
yourself.
Oh, is that really yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
That's the one that was resonating in my mind too.
I've shared this before, butthat quote that I have, you know
, when I asked the Lord to giveme more of him and less of me,
he shows me more of me, whichmakes me want less of me and
more of him.
Love it.
It's that pulling away of theveil that shows me my heart and
I say, lord, I want nothing todo with me.
And when we truly look atourselves, we really recognize
(23:02):
our depravity, our fallenness.
There's a little poem I wroteyears ago.
I may have shared it before,but it says when I take a look
at me.
I see that I am blind, Yet whenmy heart is full of pride, I act
like I don't mind.
In fact, I try to kid myselfand say that I can see.
Yet when I stumble and I fall,people laugh at me.
(23:25):
I wonder at their laughter andI answer right away.
I tripped and fell on purposejust to see what you would say.
Some have tried to help me, butI don't know why they try.
Maybe if they weren't so blindwe'd see eye to eye.
Call me 20-20 eagle eye, if youprefer.
I have the sharpest vision.
Focus, focus, never blur.
Not to mention that I'm humble.
I never brag or boast.
I admit to using glasses, butonly when I toast and you know,
(23:47):
but that's-.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Dude, that'd be such a good children's book, would
that be good?
I'm not kidding, that would besuch a good children's book.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
Yeah, I wrote it years ago and I need to finish
it.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
I never finished this book, the ends of the toast.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, that's it, you've got to add more.
You've got to butter that.
That's some orange marmalade,yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
But you know what I'm saying?
Like that whole, because that'show we look, right?
When I take a look at me, I seethat I am blind, right?
But when my heart is full ofpride, I act like I don't mind.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
So it's like when we try to pretend we're not the
fallen people that we are, welook like fools.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
That was a beautiful poem.
It reminded me of that shortlady in Santa Monica, sunshine.
Yes, hello Ray, how are you?
My heart's desire is to killyou.
Oh boy, that was crazy.
That was awful.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Going back to Augustine Augustine.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
He was short on that.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Augustine's quote.
After reading that I wrote, Ijournaled in the three things
that I came up with, like how toknow yourself first, quoting
Augustine to know yourself, youmust first know God.
And so, to just pick up whereyou were at Mark, you were, as
you mentioned, created in theimage of God, which means you
cannot truly know yourselfunless you know the one you were
(24:57):
made to reflect.
And so I thought about like thesculptor.
You know a sculptor or anartist, a painter?
When they are preparing tosculpt another person, that
person becomes their muse.
They study that muse, they cometo know that muse and they say
that the best sculptors and thebest painters, they even come to
love the muse and they say whenyou do that, not only do you
(25:21):
sculpt or paint the person tolook like the person, but even
you could potentially capturethe essence, the personality of
a person.
And so, in that same way, if weare made in the image of God,
then Christ must become our muse.
We have to study him and knowhim and love him, because the
(25:43):
more we do, the more we becomelike him.
We are the sculptors in our ownlives, and the more we study
the muse, the more we becomelike him.
And the second thing is to knowyourself.
You must know your deficienciesLike.
The more we encounter the gloryof God, the more we realize how
(26:05):
fallen and sinful we are.
And that doesn't just lead tolike shame and inadequacy.
What that's meant to do is, themore you behold him, the more
you're self-aware you become.
And that's great news, becausesin our hearts are so deceitful
and sin settles in our hearts inthe same way that dust settles
(26:28):
in our homes and those littlecrevices that we don't see.
And what we ought to do is themore we reflect on the glory of
God, the more it shines on thoselittle crevices of our hearts,
the more we're able to clean up,through his power, those dusty,
sinful areas of our lives.
And that's good news, becausenow the practice of repentance
(26:51):
in the life of the Christian issomething that we don't dread
but we long for, because themore I repent, the more I become
like Christ.
And then one more sorry To knowyourself is to know this is
probably the most important oneTo know yourself is to know how
God loves you, to know that Godknows all of your flaws.
(27:13):
He knows you better than anybodyelse and yet through the cross,
he still loves you.
It reminds me of a Packer quote, and before I get there, it's
like.
To know God's love is to notjust know him as Lord or judge
or master or commander he isnothing less than those things
in your life.
But to know God as father is toknow him through the lens of
(27:38):
the gospel, to know that youhave been saved and adopted and
called sons and daughters.
That's Packer's quote.
Adoption is the highestprivilege of the gospel.
The traitor is forgiven,brought in for supper and given
a family name.
To be right with God, the judge, is a great thing, but to be
(28:00):
loved and cared right with God,the judge, is a great thing, but
to be loved and cared for byGod, the father, is greater.
To know yourself through thelens of a loving father is what
we need most.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
You know, Oscars, as you're sharing all of that, I
can't help but think about howso shallow the world is Like
that wisdom that you were justexpressing right there.
Our hearts bear witness, withthe divine nature, of that
wisdom, when you think of lifewithout Christ, the folly that
(28:35):
spews from man, the mostsophisticated of men.
You know, these bigintellectuals.
You take Richard Dawkins, youknow and you hear the stuff that
he's saying and how his fansare just raving about how great
he is and I'm just like that isso vacuous, that is so like
hollow, it's dumb.
(28:56):
You know, when you hear deepwisdom like this, you recognize
the riches and the treasuresthat we have in Christ, that we
have the mind of Christ andwe're able to go places where
those, especially that are inthe place of denying the faith
or who've walked away from thefaith.
I'm like you're seriouslytrading these treasures of
wisdom in for the folly of theworld and yet using those
(29:20):
treasures to do that with usingthe faculty of intellect and of
cognition and of reasoning, likeyou know what I mean.
Like we've talked about usingair as you intake it and exhale
it, to deny, as you speak, theexistence of air.
Like ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
I know you believe in air because of what I saw you
do yesterday.
Oh no, Did you?
Speaker 4 (29:42):
I'm never going to learn about that.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
We were just going to do an interview and I see
Easy's hand go into the air andmove something out of the way.
There was something in the airhe didn't like.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
It was a little particle of dust floating.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Yeah and he grabbed it and put it away.
That's the ultimateperfectionism I've never seen
anything like that.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
How did you even know what I was doing?
Leave me alone, because heknows you.
So, ray, I'd love you to touchon this element of how knowing
ourselves and seeing oursinfulness magnifies the
patience of God.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
It certainly does.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
Oh man, no, I don'tJ.
I have nothing to say.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
I do have something to say and this is what I have
to say that we're living inincredibly dark times where we
look at news items of peoplecommitting suicide that are an
absolute success and popular andgood-looking and young, and
they take their lives.
And if any time in history thechurch needs to step up to the
plate, it's now, because we'renot Very few Christians share
(30:47):
their faith with a sense ofurgency.
Before my time, which was along time ago, there was a song
called Is that All there Is?
Any of you guys heard of it?
Speaker 4 (30:57):
No.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
It was the most hopeless, sad song and it was a
hit Can you sing it for us, thewords.
Yeah, I won't sing it, but Icould if I was alone.
Is that all there is, my friend?
Then let's keep dancing, let'sbring out the booze and have a
ball.
And it just starts off.
This lady talking Her name.
This lady talking her name wasPeggy Lee and she says when I
was a little girl, my daddyloved me and I ran to him and
hugged him and then, as I grewup, I did this and I did that
(31:20):
and it just comes back to isthat all there is, my friend?
Then let's keep dancing, let'sbring out the booze and have a
ball.
Yeah, it's ecclesiastes.
And the futility of life whendeath is coming, the
hopelessness of having no hopein your life or reason to live
and no hope in your death.
And it's coming closer andcloser and it's haunting, as
(31:42):
Hebrews says.
I think what's happened to thisgeneration is what happened to
me in my testimony.
I actually grew old prematurely.
I had attained everything inlife at the age of 20,
absolutely everything.
I had attained everything inlife at the age of 20,
absolutely everything.
Not the degree of Solomon, but asmaller degree Own home,
beautiful wife, made a kid,money go surfing.
(32:03):
When I wanted just everything Iwanted.
I thought what do I do next?
And this generation has seenthe world via its phone, it's
had sex and done everything viathe phone and there's nothing
left.
It's just is that all there is,and they take their lives.
So they're in darkness, they'relike groping blind men and
we've got to get an urgency inour heart as Christians and say
(32:26):
Lord, take away my fears, let melive daily for the lost and be
concerned about them and notmyself.
What firefighter would everstand around while people are
burning to death?
Concerned about them and notmyself.
Speaker 4 (32:36):
What firefighter would?
Speaker 3 (32:36):
ever stand around while people are burning to
death.
So we have this incredibleobligation that we must fulfill.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
Amen.
I was reading a comment earliertoday from someone who said
they've been activated to sharethe gospel through listening to
the podcast, and I think it'simportant that we remember,
right Like, we talk about a lotof things, but the heartbeat of
our ministry is the fulfillmentof the Great Commission.
Ultimately, friends, and justas a reminder because you hear
us talk about different things,we're seeking to equip you, to
(33:03):
help you become a well-roundedbeliever.
Ultimately, for the sake ofwhat?
Letting your light so shineamong men that they may see your
good works and glorify yourFather who is in heaven, and
that can only happen throughthem being regenerated.
So thanks, ray, for keeping uson point, reminding us of that.
You know, mark, we were talkingthe other day in our staff
meeting about our propensity tosin.
(33:25):
You know, I've always beenfascinated by transitions, right
, in the sense that how doessomeone go from being you know a
person who's like this and thensuddenly they're like that and
you just see these differentphases of life and it's like
someone who's elated aboutsomething that happened, but
(33:46):
then they're crying and bawlingtheir eyes out.
There's transitions that happen.
We're talking about how quicklywe can transition into sin at
our high points.
You mentioned a quote.
What was it about pastors on?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Monday.
Oh yeah, oh, piper hadmentioned that senior pastors
fall into and struggle with,however you want to define that
pornography more on Mondaymorning than they do any other
day.
Right, it's the day aftersuccess, the day after pouring
themselves out that's crazy.
A day after maybe no longerneeding to be as focused as they
(34:20):
needed to be on Saturday nightand prep for Sunday morning
because it's their day off.
They need to unwind.
And some people I was talkingto Bruce Garner.
He said that he would findpeople it's almost like a
present for them on the Mondaymorning.
Right, it's a way of releasefor all the pressure and it is
(34:42):
like, well, it's understandablethat I would be able to do this.
But we move, right, we move froma prodigal to Pharisee
overnight, or from Pharisee toprodigal overnight.
It's not because you're crazy,it's because we live in a fallen
world.
This is the propensity of theheart.
I want to look down on your sin, not realizing that I have that
same sort of urgencies anddesires and maybe sinful things
(35:05):
happening inside of my own heart.
I go and speak down on you, notrealizing that I got these
things inside of myself.
And Eze, I'd love it if youwould touch upon, because I
think it kind of goes hand inhand.
Or maybe you, oscar, aboutloving yourself.
We live in a society where itsays you need to love yourself.
Your problem is you're notloving yourself.
Or I need to go find myself.
(35:26):
I need to take a break.
I'm having a midlife crisis andI'm going to go do this thing
to find out who I really am.
I'm going to go hiking up theHimalayas.
I'm going to go do this andonce I find myself, I'll become
one with myself and I lovemyself.
Well then I can come back andbe of earthly good to everybody
else.
Like yourself did go up the.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Himalayas, yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
I think I'll just touch on it a bit and Oscar can
take it from there too.
But I think that there's amassive, massive misconception
when it comes to scripturetalking about loving yourself.
I mean Jesus said love yourneighbor as yourself.
In Ephesians, paul talks aboutwhat to love your wife, as you
know, as your own body.
But the whole point in that isnot this self-infatuation, which
(36:10):
is the brand that the world isselling, right?
It's this sort of narcissistictype of love where it's all
about me and I'm the only onethat truly matters and everyone
exists to serve me.
Not at all right, becauseobviously Philippians 2 calls us
to consider others moreimportant than ourselves.
Jesus says if you don't hateyour own life, right, you don't
(36:32):
lose your own life, you're notworthy to be his disciple.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
Isn't that how we're born?
A baby thinks the whole worldis created for the baby.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4 (36:41):
It's part and parcel with our wicked, fallen, sinful
nature.
So obviously, when Scripturetalks about loving ourselves,
it's talking about that naturalpropensity towards
self-preservation, which is okay, right, that's not wrong.
But that's why it's like, hey,as yourself, I care for myself,
(37:04):
I bathe myself, I feed myself, Iprotect myself, you know, to
love my wife as my own body,again, in the same ways, the
parallels of how I look out forme.
But the world has taken thatand you'll see that right,
that's a telltale sign,typically, of an unbeliever who
claims to be a believer.
Love yourself, right.
And they, just, they rear upthe second you start talking
about you know we need to die toourselves.
No, I love myself, you know.
And oh, that that talk disgustsme, you know so.
(37:26):
So I think that's important toclarify.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
There's it's crazier now because now you'll hear
people talk about your currentself and your future self.
One time I someone sent me thisridiculous financial advice
from this TikTok guru and shewas like, yeah, I just bought
this thing and put it on creditand she goes I don't want to
(37:48):
worry about my future self.
That's not me.
I care about myself right now.
Today.
My future self will worry abouthow to pay this bill.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
And I'm like what is?
Speaker 1 (37:56):
happening.
I couldn't believe it.
But I wanna go back, becauseyou mentioned success and you
mentioned sort of like rightafter that peak, that
mountaintop, that next Monday.
It reminds me of thisconversation that I heard
Timothy Keller preached a sermonand he has this great quote in
which he points out the identityis not received.
(38:19):
I'm sorry, he says identity isnot achieved but received.
The right kind of the day, theidentity we need is not achieved
but received.
And he points out thisconversation that he had with
this woman who had gotten savedat his church.
She said she came to him andsaid I've lived four or five
different identities trying tosave myself.
She came to him and said I'velived four or five different
identities trying to save myself.
And she said to him, like youknow, at first I thought of
(38:43):
myself as a good, moral person.
I was on the right side of thepolitically divided line and
because I was the moral right, Ifelt like I achieved something.
I felt good about who I was.
And then she says she got alittle bit older and she
realized I need to be loved.
That's who I need to be.
And so then she found a man andhe, she was loved.
(39:04):
But then that you know they getmarried, but then she's still
not feeling fulfilled.
And so then she says then Iknew I needed a job, I needed a
career, and so then she went andgot herself a career in New
York and was incrediblysuccessful career.
And so then she went and gotherself a career in New York and
was incredibly successful andthen she still wasn't feeling.
She says is that all there is.
Is that all there is.
Exactly Her identity was beingachieved.
(39:24):
And then the next thing waslike I need to do good deeds.
And so she got herself involvedwith a nonprofit and gave a ton
of money away, and still shedidn't feel the sense of worth
and value that she was meant toearn.
So he quotes her, he says shesays first I thought I was
(39:45):
someone because I was a moralperson.
Then I thought I was someonebecause I was beautiful.
Then I thought I was someonebecause I was successful.
Then I thought I was someonebecause I was helpful the whole
time I was trying to save myself.
And she goes on to realize Icannot achieve my worth and
value, I cannot achieve myidentity in this world.
(40:06):
It must be received from myLord and Savior, the one who
died for me.
Wow, isn't that?
Speaker 4 (40:12):
good.
I love that.
I find such joy in theseathletes and these successful
people in business that arewell-known because of their
success, and to hear them giveall the glory to God, because
it's those people that peoplewould assume, oh, they don't
need God, that they would be theleast to ever pursue God.
(40:34):
But I think it's because someof them reach those pinnacles
and they realize people arepraising me, like people think
I'm this great guy and you know,and I can't even get it
together some mornings when Iwake up, you know, and so I love
that, though, to see peoplelike that recognize man I'm
nothing Like.
(40:55):
Scripture tells us what do wehave that we didn't receive?
And if we received it, why dowe boast as though we didn't
Meaning, as if, though, wesomehow created it in ourselves,
like we made ourselves and putthis in us?
We receive everything that wehave, you know, and we have this
treasure in earthen vessels andthese cracked pots, or crack
pots in your case.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
Yeah, life is not only frightening without God,
it's also very weird.
We spend the first three yearsdoing things we don't remember.
That's so crazy.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
It's just weird.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
I mean, that's when I learned to talk, when I learned
to walk and eat, and then, aslife evolves, it's a time of
discovery as to what I like anddon't like.
Like.
I would like to like coffee.
I don't like coffee.
Speaker 4 (41:43):
You like the smell.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
Yeah, I like the smell, but if someone says I
like a cup of coffee, I feellike I'm walking and saying no,
no, no, no, no, but no, no, Ijust don't like the taste of it.
I wish I did, but it's in myDNA.
I don't have any choice.
That's because you drink itlike Oscar Black.
No, no, no.
Speaker 4 (41:57):
It's nothing to do with that.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
It's like I don't like running.
That's in my DNA.
Certain music I like, certain Idon't like, but I've got no
choice.
It's in my DNA and that's kindof frightening as you go on and
realize that you're not reallyas in control as thought you
were I remember when I was about20, and we were talking about
(42:19):
it yesterday, you wereinterviewing me about my life
and at the age of 20 years old,every Saturday night I'd go out
drinking with my buddies.
That's just what we did.
We'd drink booze, they woulddrink beer, I'd drink apple
cider.
I'd get drunk real quick with ahalf bottle of apple cider real
quick.
And we'd go out and we'd gofrom house to house to house and
I'd be lying on the floor inthe back seat of someone's car,
(42:39):
didn't know who they were.
They were driving drunk.
It's a wonder I didn't getkilled.
We'd go into a house of people.
We didn't know there's peoplesitting around.
You'd get beaten up if youlooked someone the wrong way.
You'd know who.
They don't have to do thatanymore.
I know the truth.
The truth has made me free.
And you come, you really.
(43:00):
When the appliance breaks down,you go back to the manufacturer
and that's what humanity has todo.
We're in a mess in every way,in our psyche and everything.
And when we go back to God andjust say God, be merciful to me,
a sinner, we know the truth andthe truth makes us free.
Speaker 4 (43:24):
Amen.
So let's get a little practicaland get into knowing ourselves
as it relates to, like, ourtemperament, our weaknesses.
You mean as a Christian, yeah,as believers.
Now, because I think there isthat aspect of knowing ourselves
like how do I function, likeHurry up, you know.
Those sorts of things I'd loveto hear just from you guys, like
some things you've discoveredabout yourself that have helped
(43:45):
you.
You know, like I've talkedbefore about using, for example,
with me.
One of the things I learnedabout myself is I have a hard
time waking up.
I'm a really deep sleeper.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
And I talked about.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
You know how I realized that, knowing myself
that way, it led me to know thatI had to use external tools to
help me with my internalweaknesses.
That's why I would set thosefive alarms trailing from my bed
into the bathroom.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
No, just a bit of nails would work.
Speaker 4 (44:09):
That would help too, and so I'd love to hear from you
guys on some of those sorts ofthings and maybe how you can
encourage people Like how do youexamine yourself?
How do you get others involvedin helping you to know yourself?
Speaker 1 (44:22):
I think Paul Tripp's a huge help here.
I can't remember what book hesays this in, he's probably said
it multiple times, but I thinka path forward.
I call it the three Ds discern,dismantle and desire.
And so the first one isdefinitely Paul Trippian, if I
can say that, which isdiscerning our idols.
(44:43):
He points out that every strongemotion that we have, whether
it's anger, fear or anxiety,what it's actually doing is
revealing something we love most.
Like you're interacting withyour family and your spouse says
something, your kids dosomething, a situation happens
and out of you comes fear,anxiety, anger.
(45:05):
What Tripp points out is that,ultimately, what's happening is
when somebody, when somebodyputs one of your idols in danger
, you respond out of anger andfear and anxiety.
And so, instead of like there'ssomething wrong with them,
that's a sign there's somethingwrong with me.
I need to discern what is theidol of my heart in this moment.
(45:28):
Is it comfort?
Is it reputation?
Is it power?
What could it be?
And once you discern your idol,then you have to dismantle it.
You have to ask yourself whatlie am I believing?
What truth of the gospel am Inot believing?
How is Christ on the throne,the true fulfillment of my
(45:49):
deepest desires, where I willfind true humility and grace.
And then, finally, is to desireChrist Ultimately, how do we
repent?
It's when we come to desire himabove all else, as Thomas
Chalmers calls it, the expulsivepower of a new affection.
(46:11):
True, deep repentance is whenwe see Christ as so great that
our idols simply no longer makesense and they melt away.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
Wow, that's so good.
I'll go on one of my weaknesses, that I've learned about myself
and what I do to help me.
So I have, as you guys know, areal, real problem with rude
people.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
It just what are you looking at me?
Spence looked at me when yousaid that yeah, that's why I
can't stand the three of you.
Speaker 4 (46:46):
But rude people, just rude people.
Airports, dmvs, any placethat's like government run where
they don't need you.
You need them, right it just.
And then I've failed.
I've gotten in my flesh, youknow, with people that have been
rude.
And so, learning that aboutmyself, knowing that's my
(47:09):
weakness, and I think for meit's the idol of, maybe self,
and that idol is respect.
I want to be respected.
How can someone treat me likethat?
How can someone?
And so I've learned I have to.
Before I go to the airport, Ihave to cry out to God to help
me to walk in love andself-control.
And what I do is I try to thinkthat person is lost.
(47:32):
Hell is their destiny, mostlikely, if they don't know the
Lord.
And so who knows what happenedin their life?
Maybe someone died in theirfamily, maybe they're just, I am
light to them.
And so I've been discipliningmyself to go the extra mile.
The ruder they are, the nicer Ibecome, for the sake of shining
the gospel's light and thengiving them a tract.
(47:53):
Because you act rude to someone, of course you're not going to
give them a tract now, right?
So it affects your witness.
So that's one of the things.
Speaker 3 (48:01):
Well, that's really good.
I learned something aboutmyself that I haven't got it
down when it comes to witnessing.
I approached I was on my bike,had my dog, came up to this
couple that were in an SUV, abig car, and he was tough
looking, tattoos, oscar, and hisgirlfriend was rather sweet,
sitting next to him in the carand I said would you like to go
(48:21):
on YouTube and do an interview?
And he said what's it about?
Kind of gruffly, and I saidwhether or not there's an
afterlife and his girlfriendsays oh, there is, there is.
And she said let's do it.
And he he says I don't know.
I says come on, it'd be great,you can do this.
And uh, and she said yes, let'sdo it.
And then I made a mistake.
I said she's being more of aman than you are Now.
(48:45):
I've used that line.
I've used that line many times,many times, like dozens of
times, and the guys respondedyou're right and we've got an
interview because of that,because she's stepping up to the
plate, she's been morecourageous.
But he said I'm going to get outand beat you to a pulp and he
used a few colorful words andhis girlfriend's at the back of
(49:06):
sitting there saying I'm sosorry, I'm sorry, and so I said
I apologize.
Profusely soft answer and saidI didn't mean to offend you, it
was just like joking.
He said well, don't joke aboutthings like that.
He was very insecure about hismanliness or masculinity.
Anyway, I said I've got acouple of in and out cards for
you, and he softened up and shewas very grateful and she says
(49:28):
I'm so sorry as I wrote off butit would have been a great
interview.
So I'm going to hesitate to saythat in the future, because
that's one of my weaknesses youget things down that work and
suddenly they don't.
So I've just got to say Lord,help me to have wisdom, because
if I die, I'd like to dienaturally.
Speaker 4 (49:47):
He can naturally kill you, right.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Yeah, I really appreciate your vulnerability in
that.
I think just in that vein forme really in that, it, it.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
I think just in in that vein.
For me, comfort is definitelyan idol that I'm constantly
trying to go not
Speaker 4 (50:01):
that kind of comfort?
Oh okay, stand up, I'm just aman no, you know, creature
comfort.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
I think.
One growing up so below thepoverty line and so much
inconsistency in my childhood,like one.
One way comfort is an idol ofmine is I need to have a certain
amount in my savings accountwhich makes me a less generous
person.
You know I depend on the comfortof a savings account versus the
comfort of Christ.
I think in another way, in avery practical way.
(50:27):
You know my creaturely comfortof like sitting down and reading
a book is a form of comfort tome.
And when that idol gets in theway of my kids wanting to play
with me, of Kelly needing help,I can easily in my heart grumble
and go man, can I just get 20minutes to myself, which is
comfort, becomes an idol, andthe thing is comfort.
(50:50):
Here's the thing about idols isthat we often think they're
always bad things.
But an idol is often a giftfrom God, a good thing that we
turn into an ultimate thing.
Comfort is a gift from the Lord, but when it becomes, an
ultimate thing when it becomesloving myself before loving my
wife and kids.
(51:10):
That's when it becomes an idolthing.
Speaker 3 (51:13):
An idol of affection.
Speaker 4 (51:15):
That's so good.
And again, oscar, and thereason we're sharing these
stories, friends, is so that youcan kind of get an example of
how to self-probe, to beself-introspective in the right
way, so that you could say, okay, well, what can I do then to
change that?
That leads us to prayer.
It leads us to crying out toGod.
Mark, we were talking at thatsame meeting of how our
(51:38):
recognition, of how we can soquickly shift when I asked you
about the Monday morning thing,knowing how so quickly being on
the highest high and in lovewith the Lord and how quickly we
can get in our sin, makes usdepend on the Lord, makes us
never want to be apart from Him,like to stay conscious of Him.
Speaker 2 (52:02):
Isn't it?
I mean, it really is a goodthing to examine yourself, it's
a good thing to recognize thatyou are decrepit, because if
you're decrepit, you need helpand you're without hope, and
Christ is both our help and ourhope.
Right?
Someone 39 search me and try me.
Oh, you just stole it that'swhere I was heading.
Speaker 3 (52:20):
I was thinking they're going to praise me for
this.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
When I mentioned that verse.
Speaker 3 (52:24):
Search me, oh god yes , humble revelation carry on
mark, I've got it in front of mehere, so do I.
Speaker 4 (52:30):
Yeah, yeah, boy, go get carry on ahead, carry on,
you ruined my day.
There's liberty.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
And there's freedom in handing God a flashlight and
saying check out any hiddenareas of my heart.
Right, search me, right.
Have you ever lost somethingthat's valuable to you?
It's like you want everybody tohelp you find it.
This is the most importantthing.
(52:56):
And everybody pulls out theirphone, they turn on the
flashlights, full speed, fullbrightness, and you're down on
your hands and your feet andyou're looking for that.
I was on a walk last night and Iwas over by this park and I
found a piece of gold on theground.
Yeah well, it was not real,that's what I come to find out,
but I found that.
But I was thinking, if this wasa real piece of gold, I bet
(53:18):
that they would have got down onthe ground if they lost it and
they would have searched for ituntil they found it.
They would not have given up onthat.
Well, lord, search me, try me,look for things that need to be
uprooted, things that need toleave.
It's like Martin Luther until aman realizes he is nothing,
(53:42):
well then God can make nothingout of him.
Well, I have nothing to offeryou.
I recognize that I have nothingto give.
I attended 14 schools over thecourse of my life and I learned
through my lack of stability atone school that I didn't have
any friends, that I was makingnew friends.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
We are the world, we are the children.
I love you, mark.
Speaker 2 (54:04):
You can let go now.
This is too long.
It's too long and, as Irecognized, that I didn't have.
Speaker 4 (54:10):
Ray's face is going red.
He's going to hit you, mark,you know Ray's face, he's all
red Getting all hot, getting allhot, getting all hot.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
Oh boy, that's enough .
You're doing so much to meright now You're carrying on
that.
I became comfortable in nothaving friends and not reaching
out and I became comfortable injust going to Barnes, noble or
Borders and reading what I couldfind and at that time it was
really just sports,sports-oriented things, and I
(54:38):
enjoyed that.
And I, like Oscar, think tomyself I just want 20 minutes of
privacy, right?
So we come up with thoseheadphones that are noise
counseling.
And now the absolute best placefor me to find rest is inside
my car.
Right, and I used to tellpeople look, a great place to
(54:59):
pray, my greatest place ofprayer is inside my car while
I'm driving.
And before cell phones were areal huge thing, I remember
going down to Radio Shack andpurchasing a fake cell phone and
I'd have it up next to my earand I'd be driving and I would
be in prayer.
But people would look at me likewhat are you doing?
Oh, he's on his phone, butreally I was just in deep prayer
(55:20):
.
Solitude is a great place toseek after the Lord.
Not having friends is a greatplace, because you get away from
the sheep, you get to be withthe shepherd.
So don't despise those timeswhere we think, man, I wish I
could be like the crowd, I wishI could be like him, I wish I
could be popular.
You think of Hulk Hogan, whodied a while ago, and this man.
(55:41):
He achieved the absolutepinnacle of greatness, this
bronze star, this man who wasable to defeat giants Literally
Andre the Giant.
And now here he is, laterclaiming my greatest moment was
when I received Christ as mySavior.
There's a picture of him beingbaptized and his wife being
(56:04):
baptized and saying I despise itall for the sake of the cross.
That was amazing and we need tofollow into that footsteps and
despise the trophies of thisworld.
Lay him at his feet for thecrown.
Speaker 4 (56:14):
Yeah, amen.
You mentioned Paul Trippearlier, oscar.
He said something profound.
He said you can't know who youare until you know whose you are
.
Oh yeah, so, good and that'sprofound, you know, because when
you connect those dots rightagain, it opens up the Pandora's
box of the gospel, like whose Iam?
(56:36):
Well, I'm his.
Okay, how did I become his?
Why did I become his, and whatdoes it mean that I'm his?
And it just like opens up allthis stuff about who I am, like
wow, I'm redeemed, I'm loved,I'm adopted, I'm predestined,
and that's where you find value.
(56:58):
I bear his image.
And it starts to just unravelall these amazing things.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
It's so good.
Here's the challenge to thenonbeliever, and maybe even to
the believer, which is the callto surrender.
To surrender who you are to God.
And if that sounds foreign ortoo much to you, you have to
think of Christ and what he'sdone for you.
I mean, think about Jesus inthe wilderness, right?
(57:29):
He wasn't just tempted to breaka fast, he was tempted to
define himself apart from theFather.
When Satan tells him, turnstone into bread, it's this
invitation of self-preservation.
You don't need to depend on God, jesus, provide for yourself.
When Satan tempts him to throwhimself off the temple, it's
(57:50):
self-glory.
Prove yourself, make God serveyour agenda.
When Satan tells him to bow andI'll give you the kingdoms of
the world, it's self-exaltation.
Take a crown without the cross.
That's the invitation of Satan.
Each time Jesus is tempted witha sense of independence, he's
offering him identity inperformance and pride and power,
(58:14):
rather than belovedness andobedience.
But Jesus, he resists.
He chooses the will of thefather over the will of the self
.
He embraces dependence, notautonomy.
He knew to be himself.
He must lose himself in thefather's will.
And so, ultimately, why shouldwe submit to God?
(58:34):
Because Jesus did.
Because in losing himself, wefind life right, and that's the
invitation of Matthew 16.
Whoever would save his lifewould lose it, but whoever loses
his life for my sake would findit.
Why lay down your life?
Why surrender your right todefine yourself?
(58:56):
Because Jesus laid his lifedown for you, because he knows
you better than you knowyourself.
And he has given his life up,he has surrendered, so that you
could surrender and find truelife.
Speaker 4 (59:10):
Amen.
And ultimately, our identity isto be found in Christ.
Paul put it best in Galatians2.20, I have been crucified with
Christ.
It is no longer I who live, butChrist lives in me and the life
which I now live in the flesh.
I live by faith in the Son ofGod, who loved me and gave
himself for me.
(59:31):
You know those again that try toclaim that the Bible is just
this made-up, fabricated thing,that try to claim that the Bible
is just this made up fabricatedthing.
You hear words like that.
This is a human being who wastransformed and revolutionized.
These are not human words.
I have been crucified withChrist.
It's no longer I who live, butChrist lives in me, the life
(59:54):
that I live in the flesh.
I live by faith in the son ofGod, who loved me and gave
himself for me.
I mean, oh, as Christians like,we resonate with that.
You know, and that's theultimate in how we know
ourselves.
This is who I am.
I am now the crucified one withthe crucified one.
I'm now the resurrected onewith the resurrected one, and
(01:00:15):
his life now is manifestedthrough me.
I live to magnify Christ who'sliving in me and through me.
And ultimately, ray, to tie itin with what you said.
That I mentioned is theheartbeat to our ministry, that
God now, through ChristGalatians, 2 Corinthians 5, he
now wants to plead through us tothe world be reconciled to God.
(01:00:39):
And so let that Christ who's inyou, who now defines you as you
learn who you are and knowyourself, let him now plead
through you to the world to bereconciled to God.
Amen, amen.
I can't end on dumbness afterthat one.
Thank you for joining us.
Friends, don't forgetpodcastlivingwaterscom and
everything else.
We'll see you here next time onthe Living Waters podcast.
(01:01:01):
That was a bit dumb.
Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
She'd be like sorry about the first five minutes.
This is probably the most important one.
To know yourself is to know howGod loves you, to know that God
knows all of your flaws.
He knows you better thananybody else and yet through the
cross, he still loves you.
It reminds me of a Packer quote, and before I get there it's
like.
To know God's love is to notjust know Him as Lord or judge
(00:23):
or master or commander he isnothing less than those things
in your life.
But to know God as father is toknow him through the lens of
the gospel, to know that youhave been saved and adopted and
called sons and daughters.
That's Packer's quote.
(00:43):
Adoption is the highestprivilege of the gospel.
The traitor is forgiven,brought in for supper and given
a family name.
To be right with God, the judge, is a great thing, but to be
loved and cared for by God, thefather, is greater.
To know yourself through thelens of a loving father is what
(01:05):
we need most.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
R-E-S-P-E-C-T Find out what it means to me
R-E-S-P-E-C-T.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
Find out what it means to me Wow, was that high,
was that good?
High octaves, can we?
Speaker 1 (01:26):
fix that in post.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
No.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
We had a peacock come to our house.
I will always sing with you.
It doesn't sound very much likethat.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
You know, I have to admit, Ray Peacock sounds are
probably some of the mostmiserable.
I don't know why it makes mefeel miserable.
They are weird.
The same with wind chimes, Ihate wind chimes.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Oh no, I don't like them.
They're sad.
Seriously, yes, thank you.
I'm nostalgic.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Rachel and I were walking recently.
Well, when we walk by thiscertain spot, it has a lot of
wind chimes and it just makes mefeel sick.
Yeah, you don't like themeither.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
No, it's nostalgic.
It's the sort Someone getsmurdered and the only thing
doing in the background is thechime, and one of our neighbors
put one up, so we've got onepermanently in our backyard.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Oh no, I'm going to shoot it down.
So who shot that down?
That really surprises me.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I thought I was the only one that hates wind, chimes
, no, no, I don't like them.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
You like them, Oscar.
You don't know what they are.
I'm indifferent to them you are.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
What I love, though, is we have owls in our
neighborhood, and at night,super early in the morning, you
can hear them hooing, and I loveto hear that.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I couldn't give a hoot.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
It's like, that's like.
No, it's better than that.
It's peaceful.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
What they're doing is asking a question who, who, who
did it Answer the?
Speaker 4 (02:37):
owl.
I love owls actually.
I was.
Oh, that reminds me I was in myold neighborhood the other day.
You and I were talking aboutthat right Nostalgia.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
When you go to places .
Speaker 4 (02:47):
I was in my old neighborhood where I grew up,
went to the elementary school Iwent to, looked at the roof that
I fell off when I was a kid.
Is that what happened?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
to you.
That's what happened.
Or pushed somebody off?
Speaker 4 (02:56):
That's what happened.
Went to where we lived and Igot emotional, but I got
emotional.
But, I went to my old juniorhigh and it was called McGarvin
Owls in Westminster.
I thought owls are like coolbirds they really are.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
They fly beautifully.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Yeah, I watched a thing where they were shown they
make no sound when they fly andhad to do with their feathers.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Can you make no sound ?
Speaker 4 (03:22):
It's a beautiful no sound.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
That's how they copied the stealth from the owl.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
And the peregrine falcon or something.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Yes, yeah, the shape of it.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
But yeah, owls, and the way they turn their head too
.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Is that what you think it sounds like?
Speaker 4 (03:44):
But who came up?
Speaker 3 (03:45):
with the.
Is it illegal to have an owl asa pet?
I?
Speaker 1 (03:49):
don't think so.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
I bet it is in California Because I looked into
it.
I looked into getting a skunkas illegal.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
Why would that?
They consider it like a hawk oreagle.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Can you imagine EZ doing one of those National
Geographic things where he'slike the owl turns its neck?
Speaker 4 (04:06):
I would love that.
Yeah, difference, no.
But imagine, think of this,think of my voice, listen, watch
, no, think, listen.
Okay, we're ready.
The owl turns its neck.
It started off well.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
I mean like before you started to talk it was good
Between clearing your throat andspeaking.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
It was perfect which you should illustrate how they
can be silent I love that sound,so anyway why did I sing?
Speaker 4 (04:36):
because I have a whole new level of respect for
those poor guys that work onjackhammers oh yeah and and
those, those you know, pieces ofequipment that make those
incessant sounds because theyare destroying our building
right now I wonder if ajackhammer burns calories ah,
(04:58):
there goes the bike you'll seeray running bouncing around,
doing both with sam.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
You imagine jackhammer Bouncing around, do
them both.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
With Sam On the handlebars On a jackhammer.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Oh boy, that would be it.
I want a chainsaw.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Oh, no, no, no chainsaws and, like I said
yesterday, no nail guns.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
For you, oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Ray saw them working On the building here and the guy
was using A nail gun.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Oh yeah, be nice, and I said no, nothing gas powered
or plugged in, you were notallowed to touch power tools.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
I'd like to be in charge of dynamite, oh boy.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
But yeah, like I was saying, you guys all know my
head seriously felt like it wasgoing to blow up this morning
because they're chipping stuffaround the building.
I thought imagine having tolisten to that all day and be on
the other end of that.
You know the vibrations on yourbody.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
You get home and your wife says what'd you do today,
honey Dude, it's so bad in myoffice because they're working
on that wall and it's paper andit just sounds like the hammer
and stuff is right here.
It's crazy, oh crazy.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
So they stopped the podcast.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Yeah, I hope, oh yeah , and then we're going to keep
going.
Yeah, so anyway.
R-e-s-p-e-c-t.
Ray, can you sing that for usplease?
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yeah, I could Nobody's heard me sing, except
my wife, no, that's true.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
I wouldn't let anyone hear me.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
From the age of 13,.
I don't sing, I whistleSeriously.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
You know I whistle when I'm in church.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
You're a great whistler right, because it's
awful say on a hill far awayyeah, okay, request to sing on a
hill, and I always see when Ising, tears come to people's
eyes.
Oh, it's beautiful stop.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
Yeah, all right, friends, time for a cool, classy
comment.
This is from hunter hardellbiden senior it's hunter biden
blank blank, blainey blankhunter hardell from Sioux Falls,
south Dakota.
It's a great place, sioux Falls.
Love the podcast, have found itvery edifying in my faith and
(06:50):
it has helped me grow indiscernment.
It is nice having a group ofdoctrinally sound,
gospel-focused men.
Easy is an inspiration.
I spent 22 years an addict andhearing his testimony from
gangster to Wheezy Grandpa ishelpful.
Ray's an inspiration towardmissions.
Oscar's level-headedness andperspective is refreshing and
(07:12):
Mark's deep knowledge ofscripture and conviction is very
helpful.
Thanks, brothers.
He put it in quote.
I assumed he meant brothers,brothers.
Thank you, hunter, and I'msorry that they added Biden to
your name.
That was very rude of Ray.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Ray, what?
I don't know what's going on.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
And now a radically revolutionary resource.
This podcast is brought to youby the School of Biblical
Evangelism Online school andtextbook, of which, by the way,
by the way.
By the way, by the way, by theway, mark Spence Is a co-author.
Mark, people Forget that you'rean author, so do.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
I I figured you do.
On a different note, I miss thepastries.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
That Oscar used to bring in Wait, wait, wait.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Where are the pastries?
Oscar, remember when he used todo that and used to love us.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Yeah yeah, oscar.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
Why does this go up?
Speaker 1 (08:04):
all the time I actually bring it in for the
staff and I tell them to hide itfrom you guys.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
You get an alien.
Do like Dunkin' Donuts orsomething.
Oscar, that would be reallygood yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Dunkin' Donuts.
I should bring it in thesidecar one day.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Yes, yeah, yeah, so the School of Biblical
Evangelism.
So we got the online school.
What is it now, mark?
Speaker 3 (08:28):
You know, a fast food place that sells donuts that
you hook with your car as youdrive through would be a really
good one.
What is happening here?
Speaker 4 (08:37):
Yeah, so check that out.
Yeah, 22,000 people have gonethrough the School of Biblical
Evangelism online, and thetextbook is also a great
resource 101 lessons that equipyou, Mark.
One of the things I love aboutit is it gives challenges.
Give us some samples.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
You have to share the gospel with your neighbors the
one on either side of you.
If you want to graduate fromthe course, we kind of throw you
out onto the water and make youswim or die, right?
Speaker 4 (09:02):
All right, there goes zero sales.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I was just gonna say we challenge you in a good way,
we want to prod you right.
What is the true definition ofcomforter?
The spirit.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Oh, you're encouraged to provoke when you witness to
your neighbors.
We're just saying make a paperplane with this gospel track and
throw it over the fence.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, and you have to share the gospel with a
salesman or somebody whoapproaches you.
You have to hand out like 100gospel tracts.
But the idea is, listen, wedon't want to just fatten you up
with knowledge, we want you onthe front lines, ready for
battle.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
We want to turn the fat to muscle.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Oh that's good, right Is that original Yep Plagiarism
.
That's original Pride.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Yeah, that's my choice.
It's either plagiarism or pride.
I'll just say I'll stay silentin the future.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Yeah, friends, check that out.
Don't forget the living wateris much from which you can chug,
and the evidence study.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Bible.
It's coming out in real leatherreal soon.
How excited are you about that?
That's terrific.
I feel sorry for the cows.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Moo Moo, it's for the sake of the Word of God, and
over here.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Silly question.
Perhaps when we say leather, isthat always cows?
Speaker 3 (10:16):
It could be bulls, or it can be any bull.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
We made leather.
That's leather.
What does the word leather mean?
Speaker 3 (10:23):
So what about owl feather Bible cover?
Owl feather leather, that'sleather.
Huh yeah, what does?
Speaker 1 (10:25):
the word leather mean .
So what about owl feather Biblecover?
Owl feather leather.
Who would make owl featherleather?
No one will know you'recarrying a Bible, it's so quiet.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
All right, friends, don't forget that.
And don't forget Living WatersTV, where you can not only hear
us but see us.
And remember the podcastYouTube channel.
It's growing.
Get all that good stuff atlivingwaterscom.
Ooh, you're welcome, oscar.
That was special today.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
It's weird how you can mimic crazy, crazy sounds.
It is funny.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
It's really easy no talent whatsoever needed, no pun
intended, easy.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
All right, friends, let's get to it.
Come on, let's do it.
We've got a goal ahead of us.
We'll pursue it.
We gotta get it done and we'llhave fun, and me and my homies
and we're all on the run.
Run.
Yeah, oscar dj style I mean.
Yeah, all right, friends, todaywe are talking about how to
know yourself that's rap side.
This is non-rap this is talent,non-talent, this is like a war
(11:23):
between us.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yeah, I was shocked the other day that you were
surprised that I knew theBeatles.
Yeah, yeah, that's prettyshocking.
We've got a.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Beatles million coming out because Paul
McCartney is coming to the USand having 14 concerts in
different places around thecountry.
At 80 what 80.
Oh boy.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
I hope he makes it.
I thought he was in his 70s, 84?
No, he's in his 80s.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
He was in his 70s about a decade ago.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
Was he in his 60s two decades ago?
Yep.
What about three decades ago?
Yeah, three or four.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Four Stumpies.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
How could anyone go there?
Yeah, so today, friars, I wantto say how to know thyself.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Oh, why didn't you say that I didn't know what we
were talking about?
Now you say thyself.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
How to know thyself, king, jimmy Thyself.
Yeah, this is an interestingtopic that I believe.
Oscar recommended it was yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
Oscar's into knowing himself.
That's his passion in life.
But this might sound weird tothe ears of some of our friends,
Like what do you mean knowyourself?
Speaker 3 (12:25):
It sounded weird to me.
I had to call you and saywhat's this about?
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Yeah.
So, oscar, why don't youintroduce this subject to us and
what do we mean by?
Know thyself.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah, I think it's a valuable subject because, while
you know, depending on whatgeneration you grew up in, that
might not be that appealing toyou, that idea, but the younger
generations are definitelyasking that question how do I
know myself?
You may hear people talk aboutit as the authentic self, to
become who you were meant to be.
It's a pursuit that many youngpeople are taking on now, and we
(13:01):
can listen to that language andreject it entirely, or we can
listen to that language andrecognize the longing of their
heart and redirect that longingto knowing God, and so one of
the first ways that you hearpeople starting exploring this,
especially coming out of highschool and into college, one of
the ways they say I need to knowmyself, is to reject the
(13:23):
community they grew up in.
This is like the beginning ofdeconstructionism.
If you grew up in the church, Ineed to know myself, and in
order to do that I need to tearoff all authority because that's
holding me back, which isinteresting because historically
you looked to family to knowwho you were.
If your father was a carpenterand your great grandfather was a
(13:45):
carpenter, you looked to thatfamily lineage and you knew I
must be a carpenter, but nowit's like if I grew up in a
Christian home.
I need to reject what my familysays about me to go discover
who I really am.
In other words, historically wewere told to look outside of us
to discover who we are, and now, in modernity, we're told to
(14:07):
look inside of us to discoverwho we really are.
And so that, without presentingany solutions so far, that's
the problem.
That's the false gospel thatyou might know yourself by
looking in, and of course weknow.
The gospel tells us that wearen't to look around us, we
aren't to look inside of us.
We are to look above us, to ourcreator, to our maker, to know
(14:30):
who we really are.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
So is that a new age?
Speaker 1 (14:33):
question.
It could be categorized as thatyeah, a phrase that we use, by
David David Belah, I think washis name.
He categorizes it as expressiveindividualism, that basically,
to become to know who you weremeant to be, to find identity
and worth in your life.
You look inside rather thanoutside.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
So you come up with nothing after a lifetime.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
That's exactly what's happening actually, ray.
It's interesting that you saythat, because we've talked about
this before in the podcast.
It's fascinating to me that themore we look inside of
ourselves I know there's a lotof complexity to depression and
anxiety, but think about this.
Over and over again, we'retelling people look inside
yourself, discover who you are.
And historically we found valuein big things, things that were
(15:20):
so much bigger than us, whetherit was nation or family or God.
Those things have a greatfoundation, a historical
foundation.
But now we look inside ofourselves and we define
ourselves based off of ourdesires, our sexuality or these
new communities that we'rehaving, and so what ends up
happening is that these kids arelooking inside of themselves
(15:43):
and often in their moment ofloneliness, they're thinking to
themselves I'm worthless, I'm anobody, I'm a contradiction, I
don't follow my own rules orlaws or morals.
If anybody ever knew howselfish I am, how uncertain I am
, how self-harming I am, thenthey would know I'm a fraud.
In other words, to tellsomebody go out there and define
(16:07):
who you really are, that'sactually a new form of legalism.
It's something we're trying tosave ourselves by defining
ourselves.
And you were not meant you haveno power to define who you are,
but God has done that for youand he can give you more worth
and value in this life than youcould ever give yourself.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
So isn't it a contradiction to the
evolutionary theory?
The whole world says you'renothing.
You came from explosion, You'vegot no meaning or purpose.
So why do we say go and findyourself.
That's a great point.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Yeah, I think there's this journey that leads people
where I think ultimately itshould lead them, but the sad
tragedy is that they aren'tlooking, at the end of the day,
to the right place.
You know, we were just talkingabout someone earlier, a
well-known personality who's inthe chef world, on television,
(17:05):
and Mark was just sharing thatshe committed suicide.
You know, that kind of futilityis ultimately where it leads,
especially when it's combinedwith the nihilistic worldview of
like you have really no valuein essence.
You have no real worth as aperson because you are, you're
just, you know.
And they start getting into thesize of the universe and its
(17:26):
scope.
And what are you?
You're just a speck.
Oh yeah, I am.
So people start indulging in allthese things and end up
destroying themselves.
So I think self-explorationshould ultimately lead us to
dissatisfaction with who we are,so that it leads us to Christ,
who can regenerate us and turnus into a new creation.
But what happens is people getto that.
(17:46):
They explore themselves andthey realize whoa, I'm trusting
me, I know all my weaknesses andmy depravity and my thoughts,
but then at the end of the day,they feel hopeless because they
don't know what the solution isto that and, mark, that's the
gospel.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yeah, greg Kokel said the world tells us that we are
just molecules in motion andthat we are just matter.
And if we're just matter, thenwe don't really matter.
We don't really have a purposeand a plan here on earth.
And it makes sense why, whenyou become depressed, when
things seem to go against you,that you just want to check out,
(18:25):
because we are taught from avery early age that we are just
these molecules in motion, thisprotoplasm, making a decision.
That is neither right nor wrong, it's just a decision.
I had a sibling call meyesterday and said Mark, I just
(18:46):
want to thank you for not givingup on me Wow, you're cracking
up.
And he said you know I wasn't aneasy one, easy brother to get
along with, and you continuallyshared the gospel.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
So this is one that became a Christian.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
This is yeah, it's one of my.
And he said I'm trying to passit on to my kids, but they don't
want to hear it and I see thevalue in putting that into the
kids at a very early age.
And now my kids are all movedout.
And he said my stepdaughterwants to get baptized this
(19:29):
Sunday.
I don't know what to say.
I don't know how to lead.
I don't know how to lead myfamily.
I don't know what to do.
Can I have some input from youand my son?
All I want to do right now istalk to him about Jesus.
But I'm a work in progress.
I'm trying to learn and I don'tknow what to say.
I don't know what to do andwhen I do bring up Jesus, we
(19:51):
will go months without talking.
I don't know what to say.
Help me out.
And I said well, you can ask himquestions that we all wrestle
with.
You know how did I get here?
And now that I'm here, why am Ihere?
And I know that this isn't all.
(20:13):
There is that I've been createdfor more right.
So what is the meaning of life?
What's going to happen to mewhen I die?
And maybe you can find a way into reason with him, to have him
critically think through hisown worldview as to the meaning
of life.
Where do you find your identity?
Right, here we are.
How do you know yourself?
(20:33):
And I think that this is goingto resonate right to Oscar's
point, because I think that thisgeneration, this generation,
that this, uh, generation ofthis modern time modernity is
the word that oscar used thatthey cannot escape.
Even when they fall asleep,they will ask these questions
what is going on?
Is it really us versus them?
(20:54):
And why?
If there's no meaning, wellthen why is it us against them?
And then it just becomes ayelling match.
You know, you'll neverunderstand your identity until
you start with your origin, andthis is where Genesis 127 comes
in.
So God created man in his ownimage.
You were created with a purposeand with a plan to know your
maker.
This is nothing new.
(21:15):
This has been argued anddiscussed since the beginning of
time.
Augustine he said in his bookSoliloquies, or book one, he
said grant Lord that I may knowmyself, that I may know thee.
In other words, you cannottruly know who God is until you
recognize who you are.
(21:36):
And that's where the law of God, the commandments, come into
play.
Have you ever come into theplace where you said man, I
can't believe I did that sin.
Or when we hear of a pastorfalling into sexual sin or he
dipped into the benevolent fund,we begin to think how dare he?
Paul Washer said the only reasonwhy there's not eight billion
Adolf Hitlers walking thisplanet is because of God's grace
(21:57):
and mercy.
You and I are both capable ofdoing the exact same thing or
much worse.
When you get to realize thatthere's no good thing that
dwells within you, that yourheart is deceitful and
desperately wicked, above allthings, you are capable of that
and much worse.
Why haven't you God'ssustaining grace upon a society
that has snubbed its noseagainst God?
(22:18):
You want to know yourself.
You must know yourself in lightof the commandments, and then
you turn to Christ and you canlive.
That's the ultimate solution.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
I love it, Mark.
Do you know that?
That Augustine quote is thereason why, after I reading that
, I texted EZ and was like weneed to do a podcast on knowing
yourself.
Oh, is that really yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
That's the one that was resonating in my mind too.
I've shared this before, butthat quote that I have, you know
, when I asked the Lord to giveme more of him and less of me,
he shows me more of me, whichmakes me want less of me and
more of him.
Love it.
It's that pulling away of theveil that shows me my heart and
I say, lord, I want nothing todo with me.
And when we truly look atourselves, we really recognize
(23:02):
our depravity, our fallenness.
There's a little poem I wroteyears ago.
I may have shared it before,but it says when I take a look
at me.
I see that I am blind, Yet whenmy heart is full of pride, I act
like I don't mind.
In fact, I try to kid myselfand say that I can see.
Yet when I stumble and I fall,people laugh at me.
(23:25):
I wonder at their laughter andI answer right away.
I tripped and fell on purposejust to see what you would say.
Some have tried to help me, butI don't know why they try.
Maybe if they weren't so blindwe'd see eye to eye.
Call me 20-20 eagle eye, if youprefer.
I have the sharpest vision.
Focus, focus, never blur.
Not to mention that I'm humble.
I never brag or boast.
I admit to using glasses, butonly when I toast and you know,
(23:47):
but that's-.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Dude, that'd be such a good children's book, would
that be good?
I'm not kidding, that would besuch a good children's book.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
Yeah, I wrote it years ago and I need to finish
it.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
I never finished this book, the ends of the toast.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, that's it, you've got to add more.
You've got to butter that.
That's some orange marmalade,yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
But you know what I'm saying?
Like that whole, because that'show we look, right?
When I take a look at me, I seethat I am blind, right?
But when my heart is full ofpride, I act like I don't mind.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
So it's like when we try to pretend we're not the
fallen people that we are, welook like fools.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
That was a beautiful poem.
It reminded me of that shortlady in Santa Monica, sunshine.
Yes, hello Ray, how are you?
My heart's desire is to killyou.
Oh boy, that was crazy.
That was awful.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Going back to Augustine Augustine.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
He was short on that.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Augustine's quote.
After reading that I wrote, Ijournaled in the three things
that I came up with, like how toknow yourself first, quoting
Augustine to know yourself, youmust first know God.
And so, to just pick up whereyou were at Mark, you were, as
you mentioned, created in theimage of God, which means you
cannot truly know yourselfunless you know the one you were
(24:57):
made to reflect.
And so I thought about like thesculptor.
You know a sculptor or anartist, a painter?
When they are preparing tosculpt another person, that
person becomes their muse.
They study that muse, they cometo know that muse and they say
that the best sculptors and thebest painters, they even come to
love the muse and they say whenyou do that, not only do you
(25:21):
sculpt or paint the person tolook like the person, but even
you could potentially capturethe essence, the personality of
a person.
And so, in that same way, if weare made in the image of God,
then Christ must become our muse.
We have to study him and knowhim and love him, because the
(25:43):
more we do, the more we becomelike him.
We are the sculptors in our ownlives, and the more we study
the muse, the more we becomelike him.
And the second thing is to knowyourself.
You must know your deficienciesLike.
The more we encounter the gloryof God, the more we realize how
(26:05):
fallen and sinful we are.
And that doesn't just lead tolike shame and inadequacy.
What that's meant to do is, themore you behold him, the more
you're self-aware you become.
And that's great news, becausesin our hearts are so deceitful
and sin settles in our hearts inthe same way that dust settles
(26:28):
in our homes and those littlecrevices that we don't see.
And what we ought to do is themore we reflect on the glory of
God, the more it shines on thoselittle crevices of our hearts,
the more we're able to clean up,through his power, those dusty,
sinful areas of our lives.
And that's good news, becausenow the practice of repentance
(26:51):
in the life of the Christian issomething that we don't dread
but we long for, because themore I repent, the more I become
like Christ.
And then one more sorry To knowyourself is to know this is
probably the most important oneTo know yourself is to know how
God loves you, to know that Godknows all of your flaws.
(27:13):
He knows you better than anybodyelse and yet through the cross,
he still loves you.
It reminds me of a Packer quote, and before I get there, it's
like.
To know God's love is to notjust know him as Lord or judge
or master or commander he isnothing less than those things
in your life.
But to know God as father is toknow him through the lens of
(27:38):
the gospel, to know that youhave been saved and adopted and
called sons and daughters.
That's Packer's quote.
Adoption is the highestprivilege of the gospel.
The traitor is forgiven,brought in for supper and given
a family name.
To be right with God, the judge, is a great thing, but to be
(28:00):
loved and cared right with God,the judge, is a great thing, but
to be loved and cared for byGod, the father, is greater.
To know yourself through thelens of a loving father is what
we need most.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
You know, Oscars, as you're sharing all of that, I
can't help but think about howso shallow the world is Like
that wisdom that you were justexpressing right there.
Our hearts bear witness, withthe divine nature, of that
wisdom, when you think of lifewithout Christ, the folly that
(28:35):
spews from man, the mostsophisticated of men.
You know, these bigintellectuals.
You take Richard Dawkins, youknow and you hear the stuff that
he's saying and how his fansare just raving about how great
he is and I'm just like that isso vacuous, that is so like
hollow, it's dumb.
(28:56):
You know, when you hear deepwisdom like this, you recognize
the riches and the treasuresthat we have in Christ, that we
have the mind of Christ andwe're able to go places where
those, especially that are inthe place of denying the faith
or who've walked away from thefaith.
I'm like you're seriouslytrading these treasures of
wisdom in for the folly of theworld and yet using those
(29:20):
treasures to do that with usingthe faculty of intellect and of
cognition and of reasoning, likeyou know what I mean.
Like we've talked about usingair as you intake it and exhale
it, to deny, as you speak, theexistence of air.
Like ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
I know you believe in air because of what I saw you
do yesterday.
Oh no, Did you?
Speaker 4 (29:42):
I'm never going to learn about that.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
We were just going to do an interview and I see
Easy's hand go into the air andmove something out of the way.
There was something in the airhe didn't like.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
It was a little particle of dust floating.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Yeah and he grabbed it and put it away.
That's the ultimateperfectionism I've never seen
anything like that.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
How did you even know what I was doing?
Leave me alone, because heknows you.
So, ray, I'd love you to touchon this element of how knowing
ourselves and seeing oursinfulness magnifies the
patience of God.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
It certainly does.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
Oh man, no, I don'tJ.
I have nothing to say.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
I do have something to say and this is what I have
to say that we're living inincredibly dark times where we
look at news items of peoplecommitting suicide that are an
absolute success and popular andgood-looking and young, and
they take their lives.
And if any time in history thechurch needs to step up to the
plate, it's now, because we'renot Very few Christians share
(30:47):
their faith with a sense ofurgency.
Before my time, which was along time ago, there was a song
called Is that All there Is?
Any of you guys heard of it?
Speaker 4 (30:57):
No.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
It was the most hopeless, sad song and it was a
hit Can you sing it for us, thewords.
Yeah, I won't sing it, but Icould if I was alone.
Is that all there is, my friend?
Then let's keep dancing, let'sbring out the booze and have a
ball.
And it just starts off.
This lady talking Her name.
This lady talking her name wasPeggy Lee and she says when I
was a little girl, my daddyloved me and I ran to him and
hugged him and then, as I grewup, I did this and I did that
(31:20):
and it just comes back to isthat all there is, my friend?
Then let's keep dancing, let'sbring out the booze and have a
ball.
Yeah, it's ecclesiastes.
And the futility of life whendeath is coming, the
hopelessness of having no hopein your life or reason to live
and no hope in your death.
And it's coming closer andcloser and it's haunting, as
(31:42):
Hebrews says.
I think what's happened to thisgeneration is what happened to
me in my testimony.
I actually grew old prematurely.
I had attained everything inlife at the age of 20,
absolutely everything.
I had attained everything inlife at the age of 20,
absolutely everything.
Not the degree of Solomon, but asmaller degree Own home,
beautiful wife, made a kid,money go surfing.
(32:03):
When I wanted just everything Iwanted.
I thought what do I do next?
And this generation has seenthe world via its phone, it's
had sex and done everything viathe phone and there's nothing
left.
It's just is that all there is,and they take their lives.
So they're in darkness, they'relike groping blind men and
we've got to get an urgency inour heart as Christians and say
(32:26):
Lord, take away my fears, let melive daily for the lost and be
concerned about them and notmyself.
What firefighter would everstand around while people are
burning to death?
Concerned about them and notmyself.
Speaker 4 (32:36):
What firefighter would?
Speaker 3 (32:36):
ever stand around while people are burning to
death.
So we have this incredibleobligation that we must fulfill.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
Amen.
I was reading a comment earliertoday from someone who said
they've been activated to sharethe gospel through listening to
the podcast, and I think it'simportant that we remember,
right Like, we talk about a lotof things, but the heartbeat of
our ministry is the fulfillmentof the Great Commission.
Ultimately, friends, and justas a reminder because you hear
us talk about different things,we're seeking to equip you, to
(33:03):
help you become a well-roundedbeliever.
Ultimately, for the sake ofwhat?
Letting your light so shineamong men that they may see your
good works and glorify yourFather who is in heaven, and
that can only happen throughthem being regenerated.
So thanks, ray, for keeping uson point, reminding us of that.
You know, mark, we were talkingthe other day in our staff
meeting about our propensity tosin.
(33:25):
You know, I've always beenfascinated by transitions, right
, in the sense that how doessomeone go from being you know a
person who's like this and thensuddenly they're like that and
you just see these differentphases of life and it's like
someone who's elated aboutsomething that happened, but
(33:46):
then they're crying and bawlingtheir eyes out.
There's transitions that happen.
We're talking about how quicklywe can transition into sin at
our high points.
You mentioned a quote.
What was it about pastors on?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Monday.
Oh yeah, oh, piper hadmentioned that senior pastors
fall into and struggle with,however you want to define that
pornography more on Mondaymorning than they do any other
day.
Right, it's the day aftersuccess, the day after pouring
themselves out that's crazy.
A day after maybe no longerneeding to be as focused as they
(34:20):
needed to be on Saturday nightand prep for Sunday morning
because it's their day off.
They need to unwind.
And some people I was talkingto Bruce Garner.
He said that he would findpeople it's almost like a
present for them on the Mondaymorning.
Right, it's a way of releasefor all the pressure and it is
(34:42):
like, well, it's understandablethat I would be able to do this.
But we move, right, we move froma prodigal to Pharisee
overnight, or from Pharisee toprodigal overnight.
It's not because you're crazy,it's because we live in a fallen
world.
This is the propensity of theheart.
I want to look down on your sin, not realizing that I have that
same sort of urgencies anddesires and maybe sinful things
(35:05):
happening inside of my own heart.
I go and speak down on you, notrealizing that I got these
things inside of myself.
And Eze, I'd love it if youwould touch upon, because I
think it kind of goes hand inhand.
Or maybe you, oscar, aboutloving yourself.
We live in a society where itsays you need to love yourself.
Your problem is you're notloving yourself.
Or I need to go find myself.
(35:26):
I need to take a break.
I'm having a midlife crisis andI'm going to go do this thing
to find out who I really am.
I'm going to go hiking up theHimalayas.
I'm going to go do this andonce I find myself, I'll become
one with myself and I lovemyself.
Well then I can come back andbe of earthly good to everybody
else.
Like yourself did go up the.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Himalayas, yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
I think I'll just touch on it a bit and Oscar can
take it from there too.
But I think that there's amassive, massive misconception
when it comes to scripturetalking about loving yourself.
I mean Jesus said love yourneighbor as yourself.
In Ephesians, paul talks aboutwhat to love your wife, as you
know, as your own body.
But the whole point in that isnot this self-infatuation, which
(36:10):
is the brand that the world isselling, right?
It's this sort of narcissistictype of love where it's all
about me and I'm the only onethat truly matters and everyone
exists to serve me.
Not at all right, becauseobviously Philippians 2 calls us
to consider others moreimportant than ourselves.
Jesus says if you don't hateyour own life, right, you don't
(36:32):
lose your own life, you're notworthy to be his disciple.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
Isn't that how we're born?
A baby thinks the whole worldis created for the baby.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4 (36:41):
It's part and parcel with our wicked, fallen, sinful
nature.
So obviously, when Scripturetalks about loving ourselves,
it's talking about that naturalpropensity towards
self-preservation, which is okay, right, that's not wrong.
But that's why it's like, hey,as yourself, I care for myself,
(37:04):
I bathe myself, I feed myself, Iprotect myself, you know, to
love my wife as my own body,again, in the same ways, the
parallels of how I look out forme.
But the world has taken thatand you'll see that right,
that's a telltale sign,typically, of an unbeliever who
claims to be a believer.
Love yourself, right.
And they, just, they rear upthe second you start talking
about you know we need to die toourselves.
No, I love myself, you know.
And oh, that that talk disgustsme, you know so.
(37:26):
So I think that's important toclarify.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
There's it's crazier now because now you'll hear
people talk about your currentself and your future self.
One time I someone sent me thisridiculous financial advice
from this TikTok guru and shewas like, yeah, I just bought
this thing and put it on creditand she goes I don't want to
(37:48):
worry about my future self.
That's not me.
I care about myself right now.
Today.
My future self will worry abouthow to pay this bill.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
And I'm like what is?
Speaker 1 (37:56):
happening.
I couldn't believe it.
But I wanna go back, becauseyou mentioned success and you
mentioned sort of like rightafter that peak, that
mountaintop, that next Monday.
It reminds me of thisconversation that I heard
Timothy Keller preached a sermonand he has this great quote in
which he points out the identityis not received.
(38:19):
I'm sorry, he says identity isnot achieved but received.
The right kind of the day, theidentity we need is not achieved
but received.
And he points out thisconversation that he had with
this woman who had gotten savedat his church.
She said she came to him andsaid I've lived four or five
different identities trying tosave myself.
She came to him and said I'velived four or five different
identities trying to save myself.
And she said to him, like youknow, at first I thought of
(38:43):
myself as a good, moral person.
I was on the right side of thepolitically divided line and
because I was the moral right, Ifelt like I achieved something.
I felt good about who I was.
And then she says she got alittle bit older and she
realized I need to be loved.
That's who I need to be.
And so then she found a man andhe, she was loved.
(39:04):
But then that you know they getmarried, but then she's still
not feeling fulfilled.
And so then she says then Iknew I needed a job, I needed a
career, and so then she went andgot herself a career in New
York and was incrediblysuccessful career.
And so then she went and gotherself a career in New York and
was incredibly successful andthen she still wasn't feeling.
She says is that all there is.
Is that all there is.
Exactly Her identity was beingachieved.
(39:24):
And then the next thing waslike I need to do good deeds.
And so she got herself involvedwith a nonprofit and gave a ton
of money away, and still shedidn't feel the sense of worth
and value that she was meant toearn.
So he quotes her, he says shesays first I thought I was
(39:45):
someone because I was a moralperson.
Then I thought I was someonebecause I was beautiful.
Then I thought I was someonebecause I was successful.
Then I thought I was someonebecause I was helpful the whole
time I was trying to save myself.
And she goes on to realize Icannot achieve my worth and
value, I cannot achieve myidentity in this world.
(40:06):
It must be received from myLord and Savior, the one who
died for me.
Wow, isn't that?
Speaker 4 (40:12):
good.
I love that.
I find such joy in theseathletes and these successful
people in business that arewell-known because of their
success, and to hear them giveall the glory to God, because
it's those people that peoplewould assume, oh, they don't
need God, that they would be theleast to ever pursue God.
(40:34):
But I think it's because someof them reach those pinnacles
and they realize people arepraising me, like people think
I'm this great guy and you know,and I can't even get it
together some mornings when Iwake up, you know, and so I love
that, though, to see peoplelike that recognize man I'm
nothing Like.
(40:55):
Scripture tells us what do wehave that we didn't receive?
And if we received it, why dowe boast as though we didn't
Meaning, as if, though, wesomehow created it in ourselves,
like we made ourselves and putthis in us?
We receive everything that wehave, you know, and we have this
treasure in earthen vessels andthese cracked pots, or crack
pots in your case.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
Yeah, life is not only frightening without God,
it's also very weird.
We spend the first three yearsdoing things we don't remember.
That's so crazy.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
It's just weird.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
I mean, that's when I learned to talk, when I learned
to walk and eat, and then, aslife evolves, it's a time of
discovery as to what I like anddon't like.
Like.
I would like to like coffee.
I don't like coffee.
Speaker 4 (41:43):
You like the smell.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
Yeah, I like the smell, but if someone says I
like a cup of coffee, I feellike I'm walking and saying no,
no, no, no, no, but no, no, Ijust don't like the taste of it.
I wish I did, but it's in myDNA.
I don't have any choice.
That's because you drink itlike Oscar Black.
No, no, no.
Speaker 4 (41:57):
It's nothing to do with that.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
It's like I don't like running.
That's in my DNA.
Certain music I like, certain Idon't like, but I've got no
choice.
It's in my DNA and that's kindof frightening as you go on and
realize that you're not reallyas in control as thought you
were I remember when I was about20, and we were talking about
(42:19):
it yesterday, you wereinterviewing me about my life
and at the age of 20 years old,every Saturday night I'd go out
drinking with my buddies.
That's just what we did.
We'd drink booze, they woulddrink beer, I'd drink apple
cider.
I'd get drunk real quick with ahalf bottle of apple cider real
quick.
And we'd go out and we'd gofrom house to house to house and
I'd be lying on the floor inthe back seat of someone's car,
(42:39):
didn't know who they were.
They were driving drunk.
It's a wonder I didn't getkilled.
We'd go into a house of people.
We didn't know there's peoplesitting around.
You'd get beaten up if youlooked someone the wrong way.
You'd know who.
They don't have to do thatanymore.
I know the truth.
The truth has made me free.
And you come, you really.
(43:00):
When the appliance breaks down,you go back to the manufacturer
and that's what humanity has todo.
We're in a mess in every way,in our psyche and everything.
And when we go back to God andjust say God, be merciful to me,
a sinner, we know the truth andthe truth makes us free.
Speaker 4 (43:24):
Amen.
So let's get a little practicaland get into knowing ourselves
as it relates to, like, ourtemperament, our weaknesses.
You mean as a Christian, yeah,as believers.
Now, because I think there isthat aspect of knowing ourselves
like how do I function, likeHurry up, you know.
Those sorts of things I'd loveto hear just from you guys, like
some things you've discoveredabout yourself that have helped
(43:45):
you.
You know, like I've talkedbefore about using, for example,
with me.
One of the things I learnedabout myself is I have a hard
time waking up.
I'm a really deep sleeper.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
And I talked about.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
You know how I realized that, knowing myself
that way, it led me to know thatI had to use external tools to
help me with my internalweaknesses.
That's why I would set thosefive alarms trailing from my bed
into the bathroom.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
No, just a bit of nails would work.
Speaker 4 (44:09):
That would help too, and so I'd love to hear from you
guys on some of those sorts ofthings and maybe how you can
encourage people Like how do youexamine yourself?
How do you get others involvedin helping you to know yourself?
Speaker 1 (44:22):
I think Paul Tripp's a huge help here.
I can't remember what book hesays this in, he's probably said
it multiple times, but I thinka path forward.
I call it the three Ds discern,dismantle and desire.
And so the first one isdefinitely Paul Trippian, if I
can say that, which isdiscerning our idols.
(44:43):
He points out that every strongemotion that we have, whether
it's anger, fear or anxiety,what it's actually doing is
revealing something we love most.
Like you're interacting withyour family and your spouse says
something, your kids dosomething, a situation happens
and out of you comes fear,anxiety, anger.
(45:05):
What Tripp points out is that,ultimately, what's happening is
when somebody, when somebodyputs one of your idols in danger
, you respond out of anger andfear and anxiety.
And so, instead of like there'ssomething wrong with them,
that's a sign there's somethingwrong with me.
I need to discern what is theidol of my heart in this moment.
(45:28):
Is it comfort?
Is it reputation?
Is it power?
What could it be?
And once you discern your idol,then you have to dismantle it.
You have to ask yourself whatlie am I believing?
What truth of the gospel am Inot believing?
How is Christ on the throne,the true fulfillment of my
(45:49):
deepest desires, where I willfind true humility and grace.
And then, finally, is to desireChrist Ultimately, how do we
repent?
It's when we come to desire himabove all else, as Thomas
Chalmers calls it, the expulsivepower of a new affection.
(46:11):
True, deep repentance is whenwe see Christ as so great that
our idols simply no longer makesense and they melt away.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
Wow, that's so good.
I'll go on one of my weaknesses, that I've learned about myself
and what I do to help me.
So I have, as you guys know, areal, real problem with rude
people.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
It just what are you looking at me?
Spence looked at me when yousaid that yeah, that's why I
can't stand the three of you.
Speaker 4 (46:46):
But rude people, just rude people.
Airports, dmvs, any placethat's like government run where
they don't need you.
You need them, right it just.
And then I've failed.
I've gotten in my flesh, youknow, with people that have been
rude.
And so, learning that aboutmyself, knowing that's my
(47:09):
weakness, and I think for meit's the idol of, maybe self,
and that idol is respect.
I want to be respected.
How can someone treat me likethat?
How can someone?
And so I've learned I have to.
Before I go to the airport, Ihave to cry out to God to help
me to walk in love andself-control.
And what I do is I try to thinkthat person is lost.
(47:32):
Hell is their destiny, mostlikely, if they don't know the
Lord.
And so who knows what happenedin their life?
Maybe someone died in theirfamily, maybe they're just, I am
light to them.
And so I've been discipliningmyself to go the extra mile.
The ruder they are, the nicer Ibecome, for the sake of shining
the gospel's light and thengiving them a tract.
(47:53):
Because you act rude to someone, of course you're not going to
give them a tract now, right?
So it affects your witness.
So that's one of the things.
Speaker 3 (48:01):
Well, that's really good.
I learned something aboutmyself that I haven't got it
down when it comes to witnessing.
I approached I was on my bike,had my dog, came up to this
couple that were in an SUV, abig car, and he was tough
looking, tattoos, oscar, and hisgirlfriend was rather sweet,
sitting next to him in the carand I said would you like to go
(48:21):
on YouTube and do an interview?
And he said what's it about?
Kind of gruffly, and I saidwhether or not there's an
afterlife and his girlfriendsays oh, there is, there is.
And she said let's do it.
And he he says I don't know.
I says come on, it'd be great,you can do this.
And uh, and she said yes, let'sdo it.
And then I made a mistake.
I said she's being more of aman than you are Now.
(48:45):
I've used that line.
I've used that line many times,many times, like dozens of
times, and the guys respondedyou're right and we've got an
interview because of that,because she's stepping up to the
plate, she's been morecourageous.
But he said I'm going to get outand beat you to a pulp and he
used a few colorful words andhis girlfriend's at the back of
(49:06):
sitting there saying I'm sosorry, I'm sorry, and so I said
I apologize.
Profusely soft answer and saidI didn't mean to offend you, it
was just like joking.
He said well, don't joke aboutthings like that.
He was very insecure about hismanliness or masculinity.
Anyway, I said I've got acouple of in and out cards for
you, and he softened up and shewas very grateful and she says
(49:28):
I'm so sorry as I wrote off butit would have been a great
interview.
So I'm going to hesitate to saythat in the future, because
that's one of my weaknesses youget things down that work and
suddenly they don't.
So I've just got to say Lord,help me to have wisdom, because
if I die, I'd like to dienaturally.
Speaker 4 (49:47):
He can naturally kill you, right.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Yeah, I really appreciate your vulnerability in
that.
I think just in that vein forme really in that, it, it.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
I think just in in that vein.
For me, comfort is definitelyan idol that I'm constantly
trying to go not
Speaker 4 (50:01):
that kind of comfort?
Oh okay, stand up, I'm just aman no, you know, creature
comfort.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
I think.
One growing up so below thepoverty line and so much
inconsistency in my childhood,like one.
One way comfort is an idol ofmine is I need to have a certain
amount in my savings accountwhich makes me a less generous
person.
You know I depend on the comfortof a savings account versus the
comfort of Christ.
I think in another way, in avery practical way.
(50:27):
You know my creaturely comfortof like sitting down and reading
a book is a form of comfort tome.
And when that idol gets in theway of my kids wanting to play
with me, of Kelly needing help,I can easily in my heart grumble
and go man, can I just get 20minutes to myself, which is
comfort, becomes an idol, andthe thing is comfort.
(50:50):
Here's the thing about idols isthat we often think they're
always bad things.
But an idol is often a giftfrom God, a good thing that we
turn into an ultimate thing.
Comfort is a gift from the Lord, but when it becomes, an
ultimate thing when it becomesloving myself before loving my
wife and kids.
(51:10):
That's when it becomes an idolthing.
Speaker 3 (51:13):
An idol of affection.
Speaker 4 (51:15):
That's so good.
And again, oscar, and thereason we're sharing these
stories, friends, is so that youcan kind of get an example of
how to self-probe, to beself-introspective in the right
way, so that you could say, okay, well, what can I do then to
change that?
That leads us to prayer.
It leads us to crying out toGod.
Mark, we were talking at thatsame meeting of how our
(51:38):
recognition, of how we can soquickly shift when I asked you
about the Monday morning thing,knowing how so quickly being on
the highest high and in lovewith the Lord and how quickly we
can get in our sin, makes usdepend on the Lord, makes us
never want to be apart from Him,like to stay conscious of Him.
Speaker 2 (52:02):
Isn't it?
I mean, it really is a goodthing to examine yourself, it's
a good thing to recognize thatyou are decrepit, because if
you're decrepit, you need helpand you're without hope, and
Christ is both our help and ourhope.
Right?
Someone 39 search me and try me.
Oh, you just stole it that'swhere I was heading.
Speaker 3 (52:20):
I was thinking they're going to praise me for
this.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
When I mentioned that verse.
Speaker 3 (52:24):
Search me, oh god yes , humble revelation carry on
mark, I've got it in front of mehere, so do I.
Speaker 4 (52:30):
Yeah, yeah, boy, go get carry on ahead, carry on,
you ruined my day.
There's liberty.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
And there's freedom in handing God a flashlight and
saying check out any hiddenareas of my heart.
Right, search me, right.
Have you ever lost somethingthat's valuable to you?
It's like you want everybody tohelp you find it.
This is the most importantthing.
(52:56):
And everybody pulls out theirphone, they turn on the
flashlights, full speed, fullbrightness, and you're down on
your hands and your feet andyou're looking for that.
I was on a walk last night and Iwas over by this park and I
found a piece of gold on theground.
Yeah well, it was not real,that's what I come to find out,
but I found that.
But I was thinking, if this wasa real piece of gold, I bet
(53:18):
that they would have got down onthe ground if they lost it and
they would have searched for ituntil they found it.
They would not have given up onthat.
Well, lord, search me, try me,look for things that need to be
uprooted, things that need toleave.
It's like Martin Luther until aman realizes he is nothing,
(53:42):
well then God can make nothingout of him.
Well, I have nothing to offeryou.
I recognize that I have nothingto give.
I attended 14 schools over thecourse of my life and I learned
through my lack of stability atone school that I didn't have
any friends, that I was makingnew friends.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
We are the world, we are the children.
I love you, mark.
Speaker 2 (54:04):
You can let go now.
This is too long.
It's too long and, as Irecognized, that I didn't have.
Speaker 4 (54:10):
Ray's face is going red.
He's going to hit you, mark,you know Ray's face, he's all
red Getting all hot, getting allhot, getting all hot.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
Oh boy, that's enough .
You're doing so much to meright now You're carrying on
that.
I became comfortable in nothaving friends and not reaching
out and I became comfortable injust going to Barnes, noble or
Borders and reading what I couldfind and at that time it was
really just sports,sports-oriented things, and I
(54:38):
enjoyed that.
And I, like Oscar, think tomyself I just want 20 minutes of
privacy, right?
So we come up with thoseheadphones that are noise
counseling.
And now the absolute best placefor me to find rest is inside
my car.
Right, and I used to tellpeople look, a great place to
(54:59):
pray, my greatest place ofprayer is inside my car while
I'm driving.
And before cell phones were areal huge thing, I remember
going down to Radio Shack andpurchasing a fake cell phone and
I'd have it up next to my earand I'd be driving and I would
be in prayer.
But people would look at me likewhat are you doing?
Oh, he's on his phone, butreally I was just in deep prayer
(55:20):
.
Solitude is a great place toseek after the Lord.
Not having friends is a greatplace, because you get away from
the sheep, you get to be withthe shepherd.
So don't despise those timeswhere we think, man, I wish I
could be like the crowd, I wishI could be like him, I wish I
could be popular.
You think of Hulk Hogan, whodied a while ago, and this man.
(55:41):
He achieved the absolutepinnacle of greatness, this
bronze star, this man who wasable to defeat giants Literally
Andre the Giant.
And now here he is, laterclaiming my greatest moment was
when I received Christ as mySavior.
There's a picture of him beingbaptized and his wife being
(56:04):
baptized and saying I despise itall for the sake of the cross.
That was amazing and we need tofollow into that footsteps and
despise the trophies of thisworld.
Lay him at his feet for thecrown.
Speaker 4 (56:14):
Yeah, amen.
You mentioned Paul Trippearlier, oscar.
He said something profound.
He said you can't know who youare until you know whose you are
.
Oh yeah, so, good and that'sprofound, you know, because when
you connect those dots rightagain, it opens up the Pandora's
box of the gospel, like whose Iam?
(56:36):
Well, I'm his.
Okay, how did I become his?
Why did I become his, and whatdoes it mean that I'm his?
And it just like opens up allthis stuff about who I am, like
wow, I'm redeemed, I'm loved,I'm adopted, I'm predestined,
and that's where you find value.
(56:58):
I bear his image.
And it starts to just unravelall these amazing things.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
It's so good.
Here's the challenge to thenonbeliever, and maybe even to
the believer, which is the callto surrender.
To surrender who you are to God.
And if that sounds foreign ortoo much to you, you have to
think of Christ and what he'sdone for you.
I mean, think about Jesus inthe wilderness, right?
(57:29):
He wasn't just tempted to breaka fast, he was tempted to
define himself apart from theFather.
When Satan tells him, turnstone into bread, it's this
invitation of self-preservation.
You don't need to depend on God, jesus, provide for yourself.
When Satan tempts him to throwhimself off the temple, it's
(57:50):
self-glory.
Prove yourself, make God serveyour agenda.
When Satan tells him to bow andI'll give you the kingdoms of
the world, it's self-exaltation.
Take a crown without the cross.
That's the invitation of Satan.
Each time Jesus is tempted witha sense of independence, he's
offering him identity inperformance and pride and power,
(58:14):
rather than belovedness andobedience.
But Jesus, he resists.
He chooses the will of thefather over the will of the self
.
He embraces dependence, notautonomy.
He knew to be himself.
He must lose himself in thefather's will.
And so, ultimately, why shouldwe submit to God?
(58:34):
Because Jesus did.
Because in losing himself, wefind life right, and that's the
invitation of Matthew 16.
Whoever would save his lifewould lose it, but whoever loses
his life for my sake would findit.
Why lay down your life?
Why surrender your right todefine yourself?
(58:56):
Because Jesus laid his lifedown for you, because he knows
you better than you knowyourself.
And he has given his life up,he has surrendered, so that you
could surrender and find truelife.
Speaker 4 (59:10):
Amen.
And ultimately, our identity isto be found in Christ.
Paul put it best in Galatians2.20, I have been crucified with
Christ.
It is no longer I who live, butChrist lives in me and the life
which I now live in the flesh.
I live by faith in the Son ofGod, who loved me and gave
himself for me.
(59:31):
You know those again that try toclaim that the Bible is just
this made-up, fabricated thing,that try to claim that the Bible
is just this made up fabricatedthing.
You hear words like that.
This is a human being who wastransformed and revolutionized.
These are not human words.
I have been crucified withChrist.
It's no longer I who live, butChrist lives in me, the life
(59:54):
that I live in the flesh.
I live by faith in the son ofGod, who loved me and gave
himself for me.
I mean, oh, as Christians like,we resonate with that.
You know, and that's theultimate in how we know
ourselves.
This is who I am.
I am now the crucified one withthe crucified one.
I'm now the resurrected onewith the resurrected one, and
(01:00:15):
his life now is manifestedthrough me.
I live to magnify Christ who'sliving in me and through me.
And ultimately, ray, to tie itin with what you said.
That I mentioned is theheartbeat to our ministry, that
God now, through ChristGalatians, 2 Corinthians 5, he
now wants to plead through us tothe world be reconciled to God.
(01:00:39):
And so let that Christ who's inyou, who now defines you as you
learn who you are and knowyourself, let him now plead
through you to the world to bereconciled to God.
Amen, amen.
I can't end on dumbness afterthat one.
Thank you for joining us.
Friends, don't forgetpodcastlivingwaterscom and
everything else.
We'll see you here next time onthe Living Waters podcast.
(01:01:01):
That was a bit dumb.
Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
She'd be like sorry about the first five minutes.
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