How Roman Catholicism Altered Church History & Scripture’s Intent – Highlight Episode 351

This episode addresses the crucial question: Was Peter truly the first pope? The conversation centers on how Catholic claims about papal authority compare to both scripture and early church history. Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar walk through the biblical foundation for church leadership, pointing out that the early church operated more like a group of regional bishops working together, rather than under a single central figure. They explain how, over time, as Rome gained political and religious influence, the bishop of Rome came to be seen as preeminent—a development not rooted in scripture but in historical circumstance. The guys also address related doctrines, such as papal infallibility, which was not formally defined until the 1800s and remains debated even among Catholics. Test all traditions against scripture, which consistently affirms that Christ, not Peter or any other man, is the true and only head of the Church.

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Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The reason why we address issues like this and why
we've discussed Catholicism isbecause the gospel is at stake
Absolutely, and while there area lot of things that we can
agree on in terms of thehistoricity of Christianity and
some of the essential doctrines,especially as it deals with the
character of God, the deity ofChrist, the triunity of God and
so forth, but there are gospelissues when it comes to

(00:23):
especially the doctrine ofsoteriology in terms of how is
one saved, and I believe theCatholic church has a different
gospel.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
So the real question is like was Peter really the
first Pope?
I believe strongly that whathappens in the Catholic church
is that they apply today'sstructure into yesterday's
church, and so the idea of asingular, authoritative papacy
rooted in Peter is historicallyinaccurate.

(00:50):
It's sort of like revisionisthistory to go back and claim
that Peter was the first Pope.
And let me make an argument asto why the early church, as a
summary and I borrow a lot fromchurch history in plain language
, the early church was collegial, not hierarchical.
In other words, what ended uphappening is, without a doubt,

(01:17):
the early church probably lookedmore like a presbytery that we
would see today than it doeslike a non-denominational church
, in the sense that if youlooked at Asia Minor, rome,
alexandria, what we had is acollection of churches and an
established bishop, and thatestablished bishop would help
lead those church leaders alongthe way.
And over time, what ended uphappening?

(01:37):
As Rome gained in power, so didthe bishop that sat in Rome
would gain not so much power butinfluence, and we have a lot of
examples of like.
Clement historically is nowconsidered an early Pope, but we
have writings from Clement inwhich he himself does not claim
to have any authority over thechurch and, as a matter of fact,

(01:58):
this is one of the biggestsurprises.
There's quite a bit of RomanCatholic historians that argue
against this revisionist history.
Even the 1913 CatholicEncyclopedia admits this is a
quote.
In this early period, bishopsand priests were synonymous.

(02:18):
Authority belonged to a collegeof Presbyter bishops.
In other words, authoritydidn't belong to the bishop who
was in Rome.
Authority belonged to thesecollection of bishops that
oversaw churches in differentparts of the world, and so, in
other words, we don'thistorically see a singular Pope

(02:42):
figure in the way that weunderstand it today in those
first 300 to 350 years of churchhistory.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
Yeah, no, that's a good point to make, Oscar, and I
think there's so much thatpeople just take at face value.
And, Ray, one of the things youdo and I love that when you're
sharing the gospel is youchallenge people to look at the
word Like one of the thingsyou'll often say, like when it
comes to purgatory as an example.

(03:10):
That's not in the Bible, right?

Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah, they accept that 99% of the time.
People say it's not so, it'snot Our problem when it comes to
witnessing to Catholics orsharing the gospel with
Catholics is that they insulttradition above the word of God,
like the Pharisees did.
Jesus said by your traditionyou have made void the word of
God.
So we can feel hogtied if theydon't believe anything the Bible
says.
And that's where we've got togo back and trust the power of

(03:38):
the gospel and trust the factthat salvation is of the Lord.
So when someone says I don'tbelieve the Bible, I just go to
the gospel and realize thegospel is the power of God to
salvation.
And when they hear the gospel,god opens the eyes of their
understanding and he opens theireyes to his word and the
authority of his word, andthat's my strong consolation.

Speaker 4 (03:57):
What I like about this is the best apologetic is
Scripture.
So when talking to a Catholicor a Mormon or somebody who
believes in reincarnation,utilizing Scripture is so
important because it's the Wordof God that is living and
powerful, sharper than anytwo-edged sword.
So William Tyndale is saying,and through his mission to put

(04:19):
the text into the common hand,people's life, and even
utilizing words that we usetoday, because of William
Tyndale, not only inside theEnglish Bible but inside of the
dictionary itself, that he madethe Bible.
God used him to make the Bibleaccessible to everybody today.
So therefore, there's noquestion whether or not Jesus

(04:42):
said something or intent, oranything it may be, because we
can go utilizing the originallanguage and, through great
commentaries, understandingculture, customs and tradition,
understand what the textoriginally said.
What did the original authormean when he wrote to the
original audience?
And that's the beautiful thingwith Scripture alone, because it
is our final authority.

(05:03):
Rc Sproul he said the rock ofMatthew 16 is the confession
that Jesus is the Christ, notPeter himself.
Right, so Peter was important,but he wasn't preeminent.
As MacArthur said, we don'tdowngrade Peter for the role
that he had.
Same thing with Mary Mary shewas blessed among women, right?

(05:26):
I mean, she bore the Messiah wejust don't venerate, we don't
bow down, we don't pray too.
It's not necessary to do thosethings, and when we interpret
Scripture using Scripture, ifyou were to do that at face
value, you're going to come tothis same conclusion.
It's only through the teachingof the Catholic Church, through

(05:47):
tradition, through some sort ofwritten liturgy that might be
out there, that you're gonnacome to the conclusion that
Peter is a pope, but he neverhimself would have said that he
was the pope ever We'vereferenced before, that it's not
so much what the CatholicChurch affirms, it's what they
add, right.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
So there's always addition.
So to the Bible, they're addingthe Apocrypha, to grace,
they're adding the sacramentsand works.
To Jesus, they're adding thesaints.
So there's always an additionand addition, and addition, and
ultimately it just and I'd likeyou to comment on this it takes

(06:29):
people's focus off of Jesus,which is where our focus should
be, as our Redeemer.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
Absolutely.
And I've learned something inthe last few years when I've
talked to Catholics is that theydon't understand the gospel.
They understand that Jesus diedfor our sins, but they don't
know what that means.
And to substantiate this, tomake it clear that they don't
understand, I often say topeople when they realize they're
in big trouble, they're headingfor hell.
They believe that Jesus died onthe cross.

(06:54):
I say to them what does thatmean for you?
Now?
That happened 2,000 years ago.
He died on the cross for oursins.
What does that mean?
How can it help you in yourdilemma?
You're under God's wrath,heading for hell, and they don't
know.
And yet he's on the cross infront of them at the church, the
Catholic church.
I'm doing a cross here.

(07:15):
And they just don't understandit.
And I said well, I want you tolisten very carefully because
this is going to open the eyesof your understanding,
understanding the fact that hedied for our sins so we could be
released from God's wrath byhis righteousness that's imputed
to us, and it's just.
Catholics are such fertileground.
You know, I've spoken tohundreds, if not thousands, of

(07:39):
Catholics over the years andI've learned when it comes to
these issues.
When someone says I'm a roomCatholic, I've learned to
hundreds, if not thousands, ofCatholics over the years and
I've learned when it comes tothese issues.
When someone says I'm a RomanCatholic, I've learned to go
deaf.
I deliberately do it.
I learned to go deaf, mark, andby that I mean I do not want to
get drawn into an argument withthem over their church doctrine
because they've got scriptures.
They can, like we're saying,they can take one text out and

(08:02):
say, oh, peter's, the Pope, maryis this, she's exalted, she's
the mother of God.
I don't want to go in thoseavenues, no-transcript.

Speaker 1 (08:26):
Martin Luther said the Pope is not, according to
divine right, the head of theChristian church.
Spurgeon said Christ is thehead of the church, not the Pope
, nor any other man.
Christ needs no vicar or vicar,jc Ryle.
The idea of a Pope is utterlyforeign to the Bible.
There is no trace of it in theNew Testament, RC Sproul.
There is not one shred ofbiblical evidence for the office

(08:48):
of the papacy.
Francis Schaeffer, hierarchy inthe church that undermines the
authority of Scripture isrebellion.
Wow, and I'll finish off withJohn MacArthur Peter was not a
pope.
The idea of a pope isanti-biblical.
Christ is the head of thechurch, not any man, and so we
hope you get this.
This is just a surface-leveltreatment of this.

(09:08):
We don't have the time to go indepth, but I encourage you
believers, examine thescriptures to see if these
things are.
So Be a Berean and study andread and speak the truth.
And for those of you listeningwho are Catholics, may you turn
to Christ and believe the truegospel.
You have the true Christ now.
Receive the true gospel thatsalvation is a gift that is
given by God to those who haveviolated his law.

(09:30):
If you've stolen once, you're athief.
You've lied once, you're a liar.
If you've looked with lust,you're an adulterer.
You've used God's name in vain,you're a blasphemer.
You've had unjust anger orhatred in your heart, you're
guilty of murder.
In the sight of God, it'sthrough the death and
resurrection of Christ that setyou free, but you must come to
him in repentance and faith andreceive that free gift.

(09:53):
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(10:15):
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