August 19, 2025 • 11 mins
Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar unpack Christ’s sobering message to the church in Laodicea, highlighting the real danger of lukewarm faith and spiritual self-reliance. Drawing from Revelation, they explain how the church had lost its dependence on God, becoming ineffective—much like the lukewarm water brought into Laodicea that was neither refreshing nor healing. The guys challenge listeners to examine their hearts and consider whether their passion for the Lord has faded. They emphasize that true zeal doesn’t come from emotional hype or outward performance, but from a heart transformed by grace and marked by steady, grateful obedience. The church is called to be salt and light in a dark and broken world, and that calling requires repentance, humility, and a return to intimacy with Christ. When believers grasp the depth of God’s mercy, their affections are rearranged, and zeal becomes the natural, joy-filled response. Christ isn’t asking for part of our lives; He’s worthy of it all.
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Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today, friends, we're talking about the dangers of
spiritual lukewarmness.
That term has become so commonto us as believers.
We hear it, we use it, sermonsare taught on it, we accuse
people of being it.
But I'm challenged today,honestly, to look at the log in
(00:22):
my eye, because I've come torealize, when it comes to this,
that's not something I typicallydo with myself like to
re-examine my heart, challengemyself again and say where do I
stand in this regard?
Really just looking and sayinghave I drifted, have I strayed
from a passion for the Lord?
Because I think you know ittalks in Scripture about
(00:44):
comparing ourselves withourselves, and I think that's
oftentimes a danger.
It's setting up a standard andthen comparing ourselves to that
standard and saying, well,everyone around me look at them,
they do this and that or don'tdo this and that, I'm cool.
So I think a good place tostart is what is lukewarmness?
What is that thing that we allreally are called biblically to
(01:08):
flee from?
And we'll discuss it, obviouslyin accordance with the words of
Jesus.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I love that you started with like let's explore
definition.
I think we should go right toRevelation to figure out what it
says, because I think oftenwhen we hear lukewarmness we
think immediately it can onlymean like we need to have an
exuberant amount of zeal, weneed to be on fire.
But Jesus' concern inRevelation 3 isn't necessarily
(01:34):
about your temperature.
It's about where you put yourtrust.
Read the text.
Yeah, we're going to.
I'm prefacing.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
It's like the introduction, a pastoral
introduction.
That's the pastor in you.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
These Christians weren'tnecessarily cold and hot in
faith.
Their problem, according toLuther, is that they were
self-satisfied and believed theycan be self-sufficient.
In other words, they builttheir hope on their own actions
rather than on the actions ofChrist.
And I think one of the bigthings about Revelation is like
often we think any verse inthere is immediately this doom
(02:06):
and gloom text.
But Revelation 1.1 tells usthat the entire book, isa, quote
revelation of Jesus Christ,which means no matter where you
are in the book of Revelation,what you know for sure is that
the core message is this is agospel, centeredcentered,
hopeful message, not one of fear.
And if you're ever readingRevelation and you lose sight of
(02:29):
that, you've lost sight ofverse 1, revelation of Jesus
Christ.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Yeah, I liken it to milk.
You like your milk either hotand stimulating, or cold and
refreshing.
But lukewarm milk with yellowlumps in it is going to make you
sick.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Sour milk.
Seriously, I got it.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
And so, if you liken it to marriage, I've never, ever
, become lukewarm about my wife.
I've always been hot for herand it's never gone.
And that's what we should belike.
If I fell asleep reading a loveletter from her not that she
sends them I'll have to tell herto send one.
That would be an insult to her,and that's why, when we read
(03:09):
the Word, we've got to realizethat's a love letter to us.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
So, mark, I'd love for you to touch on the
sweetness of repentance to thebeliever, because there is
something in us.
It's almost like the term goodworks.
There's something in us,there's a reaction term good
works, there's something in us,there's a reaction.
We hear repentance and negativethings come to mind because we
associate that with sin, butspeak about the hope of
repentance and being zealous forit.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
It's kind of a grotesque thought, but it's
turning from the sins that welove to the God that we are
called to love.
Leonard Ravenhill said.
So when you are repenting, it'snot so much that I am turning
from my sin, that becomes thework.
That becomes the work when I'mjust turning from my sin.
The object of repentance isChrist.
(03:55):
So when I turn towards Christ,with God's help, I naturally,
supernaturally, am turning frommy sin.
So when we hear you shall notlust, right, don't lie, don't
steal, and you begin to beatyourself up because you're
saying how do I stop thesethings?
(04:16):
The sirens are so loud insidemy life.
I get pushed up against therocks and I get demolished by
the waves, wave after wave afterwave.
So what we need to recognize isthat there is a sweeter voice
than the voice of the worldsaying, hey, just take a quick
peek.
And you say, nope, I'm notgoing to do it.
(04:37):
Right, not one peek, even I'mnot going to do it.
But it's more than that.
It's a turning to Him.
And as I turn to Him, I amturning my back on not just lust
, not just lying, but stealing,covetousness, dishonoring my
parents.
When my eyes are on the Lord, Ileave behind the tumultuousness
(04:59):
of my sin.
This is what is so beautifulabout repentance If I'm just
turning from one vice, I'm goingto turn to another vice.
Unless my back is on him, allvices are left behind.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Wow, I love that.
And I think, to kind ofsummarize, because your question
is like how do we embrace it?
And, first and foremost, Ithink often when we talk about
repentance, we act as thoughthat's the thing that we do when
we become Christian.
But what you're alluding to isLuther's quote when he says when
our Lord and master, jesusChrist, said repent, he intended
(05:34):
that the entire life ofbelievers should be repentance,
and the reason why he meant thatis because he recognized that
there are all these littleshadowy spaces in our heart.
And then, ultimately, you know,we are justified through the
blood of Christ, but thenthere's this work of
sanctification.
We are justified through theblood of Christ, but then
there's this work ofsanctification, and the work of
(05:55):
sanctification is us becomingmore and more like our Savior
Jesus.
And so why run to repentance?
Because, man, when the Lordconvicts you, ultimately what's
happening in that moment isyou're discovering an area of
your heart in which is notChrist-like, and repentance
leads you to a greaterChrist-likeness.
(06:17):
And what more do we want thanto be like the ones we adore?
And who should we adore morethan our Lord and Savior?
Amen?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
The whole thought is your zeal is provoked very many
If you get with zealousChristians.
That's one thing I find aboutour academy.
I think how is it that people'slives have changed?
They come here and for two tothree days they go witnessing
and they say my life has changed.
And I think how did that happen?
And it comes back again andagain.
I got with people of like mindand that's what stirred the fire
(06:49):
and I know, if you can, I couldyawn in the studio today and
get you guys yawning If I did agood yawn and same with laughter
If we started laughing.
Everyone joins in what are welaughing at, and so certain
things are contagious and zealis contagious.
It's like a fire.
So if you get along amongzealous Christians, you'll find
a stirred fire within your heart.
(07:09):
Even today, listening to whatwe're talking about can set a
fire going in your heart, yeah,your heart.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Even today, listening to what we're talking about can
set a fire going in your heart.
Yeah, amen.
Here's a definition I wrote ofzeal.
Zeal is a burning passion toglorify God.
It's fueled by the knowledge ofHis Word, empowered by His
Spirit and manifested throughwholehearted obedience that is
motivated by a genuine love forthe Lord and others, and often,
I think, for the Lord and others.
(07:38):
And often, I think, we getcaught up in the thinking that
zeal has to be always this, justlike, ah, loud and intense, and
I love this definition by RalphCudworth.
He said let us take heed.
We do not sometimes call thatzeal for God and his gospel,
which is nothing else but ourown tempestuous and stormy
passion.
True zeal is a sweet, heavenlyand gentle flame, so that's good
(07:59):
.
The body, true zeal, is aloving thing and makes us always
active to edification and notto destruction, so that's good.
Ray, I'd love you to just tospeak a word of encouragement to
(08:20):
those listening right now thatare saying you know, I am
lukewarm, I am convicted, thisis where I'm at.
Where do they begin to get outof that?
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Well, zeal is the acceleration that comes from a
high octane fuel of gratitude.
If you lack gratitude, you'lllack zeal, and gratitude for me
comes solely from the cross.
It's from seeing what I deserveto what I actually got.
It's understanding, grace,god's mercy, the judge looking
down and having pity on thecriminal and extending mercy
(08:49):
towards them, and so that's whatcontinually feeds my zeal.
It gets rid of my fears, itgets my head turned from sin.
Just look into that cross, thecross before me, the world
behind me.
So that's the key.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Amen, mark, I'd love you to give a word too.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Encourage people.
God has designed us to gothrough this life with other
people, and if you do notwelcome somebody to speak freely
inside your life, you'reprobably lukewarm.
If you have not had somebodycorrect you in the last couple
weeks, you're probably lukewarm.
Why are you in a position whereyou don't allow people to speak
(09:27):
inside your life?
Right, who was it that said bekilling sin or sin will be
killing you?
That's just the mentality thatsin is knocking at the door, and
it doesn't come necessarily inthe picture of an adulterous
woman who is wanting to do herthing.
It comes with just a word thatshouldn't have been spoken, a
(09:49):
glance that just stayed a littletoo long.
A tiny splinter, a tinysplinter, and if you don't nab
that thing quickly, it's goingto nab you slowly.
Before you realize it, you areso far down in the ocean that
you have no idea how to get back.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Wow, so good, Mark.
You know, I think ultimatelythe greatest danger of spiritual
lukewarmness is that Christdoes not receive our all, and
that should grieve us.
You know, Scripture talks aboutwalking in a manner worthy of
(10:25):
the Lord, walking in a mannerworthy of the gospel, and that
language there gives the imageryof a scale where the object on
one side is equal to what youput on the other side.
The object is the calling, theobject is the Lord, and then our
lives and how we live shouldbalance that out.
That he gets what he's worthyof the fullness of our lives.
(10:47):
Why we are not our own.
We were bought with a price.
Therefore, right we're toglorify God, he died for all
that.
Those who live should live nolonger for themselves but for
him, who died for them and roseagain.
He paid the highest price everpaid for anything ever purchased
in the history of the universeto make us his and man.
(11:08):
That's tragic that he doesn'treceive our all.
Thank you for tuning in to thisweek's highlights from the
Living Waters podcast.
Friends, we value your time, sowe've created a bite-sized
version of our podcast forlisteners who want to get
equipped, without the jokes andfellowship.
Be sure to check out the fullepisode every Thursday where we
(11:28):
dive deeper into the topic.
Until then, you can watch thefull podcast episode available
now on livingwaterstv.
Today, friends, we're talking about the dangers of
spiritual lukewarmness.
That term has become so commonto us as believers.
We hear it, we use it, sermonsare taught on it, we accuse
people of being it.
But I'm challenged today,honestly, to look at the log in
(00:22):
my eye, because I've come torealize, when it comes to this,
that's not something I typicallydo with myself like to
re-examine my heart, challengemyself again and say where do I
stand in this regard?
Really just looking and sayinghave I drifted, have I strayed
from a passion for the Lord?
Because I think you know ittalks in Scripture about
(00:44):
comparing ourselves withourselves, and I think that's
oftentimes a danger.
It's setting up a standard andthen comparing ourselves to that
standard and saying, well,everyone around me look at them,
they do this and that or don'tdo this and that, I'm cool.
So I think a good place tostart is what is lukewarmness?
What is that thing that we allreally are called biblically to
(01:08):
flee from?
And we'll discuss it, obviouslyin accordance with the words of
Jesus.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I love that you started with like let's explore
definition.
I think we should go right toRevelation to figure out what it
says, because I think oftenwhen we hear lukewarmness we
think immediately it can onlymean like we need to have an
exuberant amount of zeal, weneed to be on fire.
But Jesus' concern inRevelation 3 isn't necessarily
(01:34):
about your temperature.
It's about where you put yourtrust.
Read the text.
Yeah, we're going to.
I'm prefacing.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
It's like the introduction, a pastoral
introduction.
That's the pastor in you.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
These Christians weren'tnecessarily cold and hot in
faith.
Their problem, according toLuther, is that they were
self-satisfied and believed theycan be self-sufficient.
In other words, they builttheir hope on their own actions
rather than on the actions ofChrist.
And I think one of the bigthings about Revelation is like
often we think any verse inthere is immediately this doom
(02:06):
and gloom text.
But Revelation 1.1 tells usthat the entire book, isa, quote
revelation of Jesus Christ,which means no matter where you
are in the book of Revelation,what you know for sure is that
the core message is this is agospel, centeredcentered,
hopeful message, not one of fear.
And if you're ever readingRevelation and you lose sight of
(02:29):
that, you've lost sight ofverse 1, revelation of Jesus
Christ.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Yeah, I liken it to milk.
You like your milk either hotand stimulating, or cold and
refreshing.
But lukewarm milk with yellowlumps in it is going to make you
sick.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Sour milk.
Seriously, I got it.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
And so, if you liken it to marriage, I've never, ever
, become lukewarm about my wife.
I've always been hot for herand it's never gone.
And that's what we should belike.
If I fell asleep reading a loveletter from her not that she
sends them I'll have to tell herto send one.
That would be an insult to her,and that's why, when we read
(03:09):
the Word, we've got to realizethat's a love letter to us.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
So, mark, I'd love for you to touch on the
sweetness of repentance to thebeliever, because there is
something in us.
It's almost like the term goodworks.
There's something in us,there's a reaction term good
works, there's something in us,there's a reaction.
We hear repentance and negativethings come to mind because we
associate that with sin, butspeak about the hope of
repentance and being zealous forit.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
It's kind of a grotesque thought, but it's
turning from the sins that welove to the God that we are
called to love.
Leonard Ravenhill said.
So when you are repenting, it'snot so much that I am turning
from my sin, that becomes thework.
That becomes the work when I'mjust turning from my sin.
The object of repentance isChrist.
(03:55):
So when I turn towards Christ,with God's help, I naturally,
supernaturally, am turning frommy sin.
So when we hear you shall notlust, right, don't lie, don't
steal, and you begin to beatyourself up because you're
saying how do I stop thesethings?
(04:16):
The sirens are so loud insidemy life.
I get pushed up against therocks and I get demolished by
the waves, wave after wave afterwave.
So what we need to recognize isthat there is a sweeter voice
than the voice of the worldsaying, hey, just take a quick
peek.
And you say, nope, I'm notgoing to do it.
(04:37):
Right, not one peek, even I'mnot going to do it.
But it's more than that.
It's a turning to Him.
And as I turn to Him, I amturning my back on not just lust
, not just lying, but stealing,covetousness, dishonoring my
parents.
When my eyes are on the Lord, Ileave behind the tumultuousness
(04:59):
of my sin.
This is what is so beautifulabout repentance If I'm just
turning from one vice, I'm goingto turn to another vice.
Unless my back is on him, allvices are left behind.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Wow, I love that.
And I think, to kind ofsummarize, because your question
is like how do we embrace it?
And, first and foremost, Ithink often when we talk about
repentance, we act as thoughthat's the thing that we do when
we become Christian.
But what you're alluding to isLuther's quote when he says when
our Lord and master, jesusChrist, said repent, he intended
(05:34):
that the entire life ofbelievers should be repentance,
and the reason why he meant thatis because he recognized that
there are all these littleshadowy spaces in our heart.
And then, ultimately, you know,we are justified through the
blood of Christ, but thenthere's this work of
sanctification.
We are justified through theblood of Christ, but then
there's this work ofsanctification, and the work of
(05:55):
sanctification is us becomingmore and more like our Savior
Jesus.
And so why run to repentance?
Because, man, when the Lordconvicts you, ultimately what's
happening in that moment isyou're discovering an area of
your heart in which is notChrist-like, and repentance
leads you to a greaterChrist-likeness.
(06:17):
And what more do we want thanto be like the ones we adore?
And who should we adore morethan our Lord and Savior?
Amen?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
The whole thought is your zeal is provoked very many
If you get with zealousChristians.
That's one thing I find aboutour academy.
I think how is it that people'slives have changed?
They come here and for two tothree days they go witnessing
and they say my life has changed.
And I think how did that happen?
And it comes back again andagain.
I got with people of like mindand that's what stirred the fire
(06:49):
and I know, if you can, I couldyawn in the studio today and
get you guys yawning If I did agood yawn and same with laughter
If we started laughing.
Everyone joins in what are welaughing at, and so certain
things are contagious and zealis contagious.
It's like a fire.
So if you get along amongzealous Christians, you'll find
a stirred fire within your heart.
(07:09):
Even today, listening to whatwe're talking about can set a
fire going in your heart, yeah,your heart.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Even today, listening to what we're talking about can
set a fire going in your heart.
Yeah, amen.
Here's a definition I wrote ofzeal.
Zeal is a burning passion toglorify God.
It's fueled by the knowledge ofHis Word, empowered by His
Spirit and manifested throughwholehearted obedience that is
motivated by a genuine love forthe Lord and others, and often,
I think, for the Lord and others.
(07:38):
And often, I think, we getcaught up in the thinking that
zeal has to be always this, justlike, ah, loud and intense, and
I love this definition by RalphCudworth.
He said let us take heed.
We do not sometimes call thatzeal for God and his gospel,
which is nothing else but ourown tempestuous and stormy
passion.
True zeal is a sweet, heavenlyand gentle flame, so that's good
(07:59):
.
The body, true zeal, is aloving thing and makes us always
active to edification and notto destruction, so that's good.
Ray, I'd love you to just tospeak a word of encouragement to
(08:20):
those listening right now thatare saying you know, I am
lukewarm, I am convicted, thisis where I'm at.
Where do they begin to get outof that?
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Well, zeal is the acceleration that comes from a
high octane fuel of gratitude.
If you lack gratitude, you'lllack zeal, and gratitude for me
comes solely from the cross.
It's from seeing what I deserveto what I actually got.
It's understanding, grace,god's mercy, the judge looking
down and having pity on thecriminal and extending mercy
(08:49):
towards them, and so that's whatcontinually feeds my zeal.
It gets rid of my fears, itgets my head turned from sin.
Just look into that cross, thecross before me, the world
behind me.
So that's the key.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Amen, mark, I'd love you to give a word too.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Encourage people.
God has designed us to gothrough this life with other
people, and if you do notwelcome somebody to speak freely
inside your life, you'reprobably lukewarm.
If you have not had somebodycorrect you in the last couple
weeks, you're probably lukewarm.
Why are you in a position whereyou don't allow people to speak
(09:27):
inside your life?
Right, who was it that said bekilling sin or sin will be
killing you?
That's just the mentality thatsin is knocking at the door, and
it doesn't come necessarily inthe picture of an adulterous
woman who is wanting to do herthing.
It comes with just a word thatshouldn't have been spoken, a
(09:49):
glance that just stayed a littletoo long.
A tiny splinter, a tinysplinter, and if you don't nab
that thing quickly, it's goingto nab you slowly.
Before you realize it, you areso far down in the ocean that
you have no idea how to get back.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Wow, so good, Mark.
You know, I think ultimatelythe greatest danger of spiritual
lukewarmness is that Christdoes not receive our all, and
that should grieve us.
You know, Scripture talks aboutwalking in a manner worthy of
(10:25):
the Lord, walking in a mannerworthy of the gospel, and that
language there gives the imageryof a scale where the object on
one side is equal to what youput on the other side.
The object is the calling, theobject is the Lord, and then our
lives and how we live shouldbalance that out.
That he gets what he's worthyof the fullness of our lives.
(10:47):
Why we are not our own.
We were bought with a price.
Therefore, right we're toglorify God, he died for all
that.
Those who live should live nolonger for themselves but for
him, who died for them and roseagain.
He paid the highest price everpaid for anything ever purchased
in the history of the universeto make us his and man.
(11:08):
That's tragic that he doesn'treceive our all.
Thank you for tuning in to thisweek's highlights from the
Living Waters podcast.
Friends, we value your time, sowe've created a bite-sized
version of our podcast forlisteners who want to get
equipped, without the jokes andfellowship.
Be sure to check out the fullepisode every Thursday where we
(11:28):
dive deeper into the topic.
Until then, you can watch thefull podcast episode available
now on livingwaterstv.
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