November 12, 2024 • 38 mins
In this episode of The Load Out, host Ashanti Abdullah sits down with rapper, singer, writer, and creative powerhouse Dessa to explore the evolution of her career from poetry slams to international tours. The two dive into Dessa's creative process, how philosophy influenced her approach to music, and the highs and lows of touring. With humor and depth, Dessa shares personal anecdotes, including how she navigates the pressures of life on the road and how her collaborations have shaped her artistry. Whether you're a fan of Dessa or just curious about the behind-the-scenes of an artist's journey, this episode is packed with insight and inspiration.
Follow Dessa:
@dessa
Produced by: @probablyashanti for @Ternwheel
Mixed by: MMYYKK- @mmyykkvibes
Music by: MMYYKK - @mmyykkvibes
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the loadout. I'm your host, Ashanti
Abdulla. In each week, we takeyou behind the scenes of the
live music industry From touringtips and industry insights to
candid conversations withartists, managers, and music
professionals, we uncover thestories and strategies that make
live performances unforgettable.Whether you're an artist, a tour
manager, or just a live musicenthusiast, this podcast is your
(00:32):
backstage pass to the world oftouring and live events. Today,
I'm really excited for our cast,Dessa.
You've heard of her as a memberof Doomtree, but she's also an
accomplished author with herbook My Own Devices earning
critical acclaim, and she'shosted the BBC's Deeply Human
podcast. Today, we're gonna talkabout how she balances writing,
(00:53):
music, and broadcasting,
Speaker 2 (00:53):
and what keeps her motivated across these different
creative fields.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Let's get into the show. I'm motivated across these
different creative fields. Let'sget into the show. Dessa, how
are you? I'm good.
I'm good. The casual answer
Speaker 2 (01:02):
is good, man. How are you? The honest thing is like,
pretty good. I think, like, asunny day helps for me, like, to
an extraordinary extent, like,how I think my entire life is
going.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Totally agree. Although I do have day you know,
living in the bay, I do havelike, it's been so sunny lately.
I I don't know. I go the otherway sometimes too. I'm gonna be
honest with you.
Like, I'm, like, I need somerain.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Not sound very generous. Like, I don't know. I
just I have so much health andwell-being, and I'm so satisfied
that sometimes I'm like, toohappy. And I have to, like, roll
back.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
No. When I lived in I used to live in Phoenix. Right?
And when I lived down there, itliterally was sunny so many days
that I got depressed. Like, Igot depressed because it I was,
like, woah.
There is no change of anything?Like, this is too much, you
know?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah. It's funny. When you say Phoenix, now I'm
really sympathetic to it. Butthat's also Yeah. More of heat
and, you know, just unrelenting.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah. It is unbelievably unrelenting. And
although I will say Phoenix haschanged quite a bit. I've been
down there a few times. It's amuch more beautiful place than
it was 20 years ago.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
But I hated every moment of it. I'm just gonna
Speaker 2 (02:13):
be honest with you.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I was so happy to get the hell out of there. I I'm
really stoked to have you onmainly because we've been in,
like, around each other's orbitfor quite some time. I don't
think we've ever sat down andhad a conversation before, so
I'm super excited to just chopit up with you, number 1. And
I'm really thankful that youwere like, yeah. I'll hop on
with you, and we got this donepretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Totally game. I feel like we've been half a degree of
separation for 20 years andhaven't
Speaker 1 (02:42):
At a minimum. Definitely at a minimum. Might
maybe even more that we're,like, unaware of. Yeah. I know
this is the, like you know,we'll do the qualifying
question, which is I mean I Imean, look, you built a pretty
incredible career from, like,back in the early 2000 and to
where you're at right now.
It's unbelievable. Just kindalooking through things that
(03:03):
maybe I wasn't even fully awareof, it's it's kinda mind
blowing. But taking it back tothe beginning, like, how did you
like, where? How? How did thisall start?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah. I mean, I think probably like a lot of people,
the parameters of my career havesort of been set by the walls
that I tried to push over andcouldn't quite push down. Like,
this is what I really want, andI can't get it. So what's the
closest thing I can do? Right.
When I was yeah. I did go tocollege in in Minnesota. I went
to the University of Minnesota,and I studied, studied
(03:34):
philosophy there, which I dug. Ilove that. I love the education,
and it still changes the way Ithink about the world.
And it doesn't really set you upfor a clear professional
trajectory.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Right? Never never does. Right?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
So I I had wanted to be like a creative writer. I I
loved, I loved personal essays,which sound drier than they are.
It's just like true stories,but, you know, that are written
with all the skills that you useto write fiction and start
stories. Suspense and humor,character development, blah blah
blah. I loved that form.
I wrote a bunch of essays andsent them out and then, like,
(04:09):
never heard back from absolutelyanybody. So, like, I I was
making zero traction trying tofigure out, like, okay. If I if
I came up in Minnesota, like andthe magazines that I knew about
that were, like, literary andcool. Mhmm. Now we're on the
East Coast, and and theywouldn't write me back.
What's the thing? What's what'sthe intermediary step? How do
you get started? And I'd had abad breakup, and my roommate at
(04:33):
the time, Jacqueline, who was,like, exponentially hipper than
I was, like, we managed. She waslike, you need to put some
payers out.
Like, you cannot live in yourbedroom like this. You know?
Come on. I'm taking you out. Andshe took me to a poetry slam.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Oh, nice.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, that was Wait.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Were, like, in Minneapolis or, like, at school
Speaker 2 (04:53):
or like Saint Paul? It was like, Kieran's Irish Pub.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Oh my lord.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
I can't remember what it was. Hello. And while we were
there, she was like, yo. Youknow, I think I think you could
do this. And I was like, I thinkI could do this.
And so went back, you know, thenext month I had and and
slammed, and I can we swear? Wecould swear. Right?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah. Of course. You
Speaker 2 (05:16):
can do
Speaker 1 (05:16):
whatever the fuck you want.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
The fuck we want. So I rolled up, and I, you know,
I'd prepared my poems orwhatever and won and thought I
was, like, absolutely hot shit.I was feeling myself and then
was, like, very quickly informedthat, like, all of the good
poets are out of town on tour.So, like
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Oh, boy.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
That y'all that you think you're on is real.
Elevation's real modest rightnow. But for me, that was the
you know, there was such anoverlap then. That was still,
like, deaf poetry jam on HBO.There's such an overlap of,
like, the hip hop communitiesand, you know, everybody from,
like, Saul Williams who kindaworked in both worlds and Yeah.
(05:55):
Most deaf obviously was wasinvolved in that community and
Sage Francis. So it's likeseeing performers who were doing
hip hop stuff, but at first inthis unaccompanied way. It was
my first, like, entree intoperformance. So then there,
there was a rapper in the roomwho was like, yo. You know,
would you do this do this withmy over some beats that I've got
(06:15):
in building a a group?
And that seemed like, is thislegit? And I texted her. Like,
is this guy creepy? She waslike, no. No.
He's cool. I was like, okay.Let's go. So, yeah, that was my
couldn't be a writer. Was amedium slam artist and then
started, you know, startingrapping.
(06:35):
Yeah. Through the I don't know.Like, I got I got some good our
scene in Minneapolis was sofertile. Like, there was just a
lot of a lot of pretty generousartists in that community who
were game to be like, hey. Youare not phenomenal, and Right.
You got potential. Like, that'scool. Right. I'm gonna kick it.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Right. I think the great the good rush to the to
roast to the top, obviously. Ithink that happens in any, like,
competitive market. Right?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Well, when you still are
Speaker 1 (07:03):
like, you. The good people kinda rose to the top Oh,
Speaker 2 (07:06):
good people.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
With that. Yeah. Yep. I'm not saying that there aren't
people that weren't great that,like, didn't end up getting a
shot at it. But, you know,there's obviously multiple
reasons why.
Right? So there's a little bitof luck that comes along with
some of that stuff too. 100%.Having the right people around
you, blah blah blah blah blah.But at the very least, you'd
probably need to be good.
(07:28):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah. So I think also
Speaker 1 (07:30):
I mean,
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I well, I, like, taught for a while, and I say
this a lot in classes, but I,you know, I understood, like,
music to be, like, the NFL orsomething. Like, it was just so
so competitive that it just feltlike, man, you had better be,
like, the top 10th of 1percentile to do anything in it.
Yeah. And it's really surprisedme how much, like, being likable
(07:52):
and kind actually matters.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
So much. It goes so far. Yeah. It goes so far. It
goes so far.
I mean, we we talk about that alot on this podcast of, like,
when you're touring and, like,the different venues you go to
and things like that. And just,like, being happy to be there,
because you should be, like, goso far with the people that you
end up working with and thesecrunchy old sound dudes that
(08:15):
just, like, have no interest in,like, dealing with the rapper.
They wanna do a band. Even thateven they're just all over the
place. And, like, they, youknow, it goes a really long way.
And that is true. That is true.I mean, there has to be,
clearly, there has to besomething. Right? Something
about you.
It could just be who you are. Itcould be the talent that you
have around, you know, music orwhatever the deal is. But, yes,
(08:38):
being a wonderful person goes areally long way. I totally agree
with that a 1000%.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Even yeah. Like, now, you know, when I'm getting ready
to go on the road and I'm andI'm hiring musicians, it's like,
okay. Well, you can obviouslyshred your phenomenal Yeah.
Pianist. You know?
But I spend an hour and a halfon the stage with you, and I
spent 8 hours in the band with
Speaker 1 (08:59):
you. So, like Yep.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah. Personal.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah. Mhmm. It's a big it's a big deal. I have had
those discussions, you know,outside of Turnwell. I run San
Francisco Supply, whichmanagement company.
Manage some people here on hereand there. Mike is probably the
main person, that that we workwith right now. But, we've had
(09:22):
some of those discussionsrecently just because he is now
starting to okay, things arehappening in the background that
I can't talk about right now,but things things are happening.
Right? So, like, we're startingto have those discussions
around, you know, well, you wedo know this is out there.
He's touring in in Europe this,this Yes. This December. But,
like, explaining to him, like,how that works and how that
(09:45):
could be a major problem if thatif the right people aren't. It's
a lot. There's a lot that goesinto touring.
I think people just kinda hopinto it, and they're like, man.
I then again, we did too, but welearned. We learned along
Speaker 2 (09:57):
the way. And, also, I think it's so much, like,
informal apprenticeship. Like,somebody taught me anyway. Yo.
This is what a day sheet is.
This is what Van Call is. It'snot cute to be late. Like, it's
really not cute. You know what Imean? This is how like, the
systems and it's funny becausein some ways, I feel like, you
know, so much of industry like,business industry, you've got
(10:18):
best practice books.
Right? Yep. I feel like the waythat the generational knowledge
of how to tour passes, so muchof that is hand is like the way
that hopscotch rhymes. Like, theway that I do old Dutch rhymes.
Like, there's no handbook.
It was just like twirl.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yep. 1000%.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
I know. Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Thousand%. I'm gonna shamelessly plug Turnwell
because that was kind of theidea. Right? Like, we we could
obviously service, like, largeKendrick Lamar size or or tours
with Turnwheel. But for thatbrand new artist that goes out,
there's all these things in herethat you're like, wait a minute.
This is a check. Oh, shit. Igotta think about that too.
(11:02):
Yeah. Like, that's kinda why webuilt it so we could create a
best practice for for the, forthe market for people that are
out touring.
Because, ultimately, you know aswell as I do, this is a full
time business. It's its ownthing, and you gotta be serious
about it. These these day sheetsand and Van Call, all this
stuff, it's super important.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
And sloppiness cost money. You know, when you say
you're
Speaker 1 (11:23):
It costs a lot of money. It costs a lot of money.
Sorry. Going back to totalsidebar. Going back to you.
Going back to you. You're knownfor, like, super powerful
lyricism, and blending genres,things of that nature. When you
approach songwriting, how how doyou approach it? Is it, like,
lyrics first, melody, anotherelement? Like, how is this how
(11:43):
do these ideas come to you?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
I'd say for me, very often, it's like little scraps
of language. You know? So littletiny not whole verses. Sometimes
even just an image, 2 wordstogether. Sometimes, you know, a
2 bar or whatever, a couplet.
And I'll write those piecesdown, and then it's not until
I've got music that I'll usuallyplay it on repeat and sort of
(12:05):
review those scraps. You knowwhat I mean? To see what can be
assembled into a whole lyrics.And that would be the time at
which I start thinking melodiestoo. Yeah.
For me, like, god, the idea ofcoming up with melody. You know,
because even rap verse, I wastalking to my musical director
who's also an MC, Jelly, JoshuaWilliams. And I was talking,
(12:25):
like, you know, we don't notateit, and there's no reason to,
but rap versus have melodies.Like, if you were to pitch 1 up
half a step and then put it backon the beat, it would sound
truly.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Completely different. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
You're wrong. We would not Exactly. You know? And
so even if it's, you know, onlyoperating within, like, I don't
know, 2 or 3 notes, that's howthat would be the time when I
start to figure out melodies isthe beat running. And sometimes
I'll describe it likepaleontology.
Like, I've got all these tinylittle dino bones, and now I
(12:58):
gotta figure out, like, wherethe, you know, pterodactyl is.
You know?
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Right. How they all fit together.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Mhmm. Yeah. I
Speaker 1 (13:05):
always I tell everybody this that, is as
talented as you are, and I'mgonna never stop. I just don't
have it. I wish I did. I wish Iknew, but I oh, that kinda
talent? 0%.
I can't even draw a straightline. Anything artistic is never
gonna happen for me. Right? Ilearned that pretty early on,
which is why I sat my ass downin the business side of things.
(13:28):
So I was like, you're just notgood at this.
But I I envy it. I definitely do
Speaker 2 (13:32):
need it. Somewhere that like composition notebooks,
the old
Speaker 1 (13:35):
We're not gonna talk about what's out there because
there probably is stuff outthere. Right? But no one needs
to know about these things. Butyeah. I mean, I definitely,
like, I definitely envy it.
I do get luckily, get to spend alot of time in the studio,
Speaker 2 (13:49):
a lot of
Speaker 1 (13:50):
time with a lot of really cool people, and put my
little thoughts around things,which apparently people think
are good thoughts.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Like, often, like, production or, like, you
Speaker 1 (13:59):
know, like Yeah. On the production side of it. Like,
working with different artistswhen they're in the studio and,
you know, working withproducers, working with a bunch
of different people. So that'sthat, like, that's how I get my
creative outlet in it for sure.But it blows my mind, like, how
you and other people think aboutthese things.
It's I don't know. It's prettyamazing. Going into, talking
(14:22):
about touring, actually. I mean,you've toured you tour. It's
real.
It's like what you do. How'syour relationship, like, changed
with it? It's like from when youfirst started to, like, how it
is now.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yeah. I think I think for me, tour has been my
favorite part of the job for alot of years and my least
favorite part of the job.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
About to say I'm very surprised by that. Most people
hate it.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Do most people hate it?
Speaker 1 (14:50):
I feel like most people hate it that I talk to
that I talk to. I could bewrong. But most people I'm
around, there's not theirfavorite thing to do at all. You
know? But I think it's becausewe're all old.
Yes. So that
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
It'd be different. I think if everyone I knew is
younger maybe. Yeah. But, like,everyone's old, so no one likes
it anymore. But Yeah.
You know?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
I I think though even, like, you know, even when
I was in my twenties, like, Ilove I do love travel, just
generally. And, obviously, theidea is like, oh, wow. I could
you know, my my work, right,would would bring me around to
to be all these and also not asa vacationer because I think I I
feel like, I don't know, classguilt, I think. Like, if you go
(15:33):
to a country and you're justkicking it at a hotel with
people who are paid to make youfeel like, that doesn't that
doesn't seem like that thatmight be a good, like, restart
every once in a while. Right?
But that's not seeing the world.That's pain treatment. And
Right. And so the idea of, like,being able to travel and, like,
work with people in all thesedifferent countries.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
You know
Speaker 2 (15:53):
what I mean? And so for that day, you're kinda,
like, in the mix a little bit.That part of love. I get
irritated and fussy about thefact that, like, I just I just
sleep is so tough. Not because,like, oh, I can't sleep,
although it's also true, butbecause, like, that lifestyle is
it's built for business.
(16:14):
It's not built for owls. Youknow? And so the idea of, like,
checking into the hotel at 2 andvan call at 9, like, I'm over
that. So for me, in thebeginning, I think also probably
I would have been too shy to saythat I didn't love it because
there is definitely at leastwhen I started, there was
definitely that culture of,like, you ain't hungry then.
Like, if
Speaker 1 (16:33):
you Yeah. If you weren't hungry
Speaker 2 (16:35):
about one thing. And then you you know what I mean?
You're not somehow, like, livingup to the constant ready to go.
I got I remember beingchallenged like, do you have CDs
in your backpack? Because yougot a serial rapper if you don't
to to hand in hand over to, likeit was a different silly time.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
And it's totally like that's totally like some dumbass
sales managers, like, maneuveron some young salesperson right
now. Like, do you have businesscards on you? Because if you
don't, you're not serious aboutbeing a sales per you know what
I mean? Like
Speaker 2 (17:06):
It's so yeah. It's real laughable. But, you know,
there was there was it was tiedinto your personality in a
different way. You know? Like,underground hip hop meant that
you had to have, like,headphones and a hoodie on in
bed.
Definitely. And you couldn't belistening to pop music and
everybody did seriously. Like,you know Definitely. Yep.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
But so you you, you do love it. You don't love it,
but you do love it. Yeah. Imaybe the reason why I don't
like it as much Yeah. Anymore isbecause I'm obviously if I'm on
the road, which I still do fromtime to time, I still end up on
(17:51):
the road.
And if I am on the road, it'susually from it's from the all
work side. Like, there's no funfor this guy right here. You
know what I mean? It's like allwork, which is fine. Like, I I
I'm I I would I'd be kiddingmyself if I didn't say that I
didn't like it a little bit.
I do like spending the time withmy friends and the people that
(18:11):
I'm out with, and even peoplethat I don't know and meeting
new people. You meet so many newpeople all the time. It's so
much fun. But but, yeah, I'musually the one setting up the
time and having to be there atthe time and doing the time and
you know what I mean? So it'snot as fun, from from my side of
it.
Days off are always nice, and Itry to schedule things so people
(18:34):
get a little bit of time to seethings when they're in town.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
That's cool.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
But there is something that you do get
connected to everywhere you go,which is, like, the music
industry in that country. Like,the people come out to these
things, and that's always thefun part, is making those
connections. Because you know aswell as I do, you might make a
connection in 2,005 that is
Speaker 2 (18:55):
a
Speaker 1 (18:55):
completely different connection in 2020. You know
what I mean? That's pretty
Speaker 2 (18:59):
cool. I mean, on this call even. I mean, you know,
there's been a lot of mileage,I'm sure, between the first time
that between the roles thatwe're filling now and the first
time between the roles thatwe're filling now and the first
time Exactly. Names crossed
Speaker 1 (19:08):
one another's orbit. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
A 1000%. A 1000%. Who became who now works in digital
distribution, you know,
Speaker 1 (19:11):
and the so
Speaker 2 (19:12):
and so who's now in ANR. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
When they were still acting. Stick around this. Like,
I quit. I quit, like, 9 yearsago.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
What'd you
Speaker 1 (19:25):
do? I'm done. Nothing. I was, like, I'm not
doing music. F this.
I'm done with this. And then Iwent and built a fucking music
company, like, immediately.Like, I was We don't go away.
It's not a it doesn't matter howmuch we try to pretend like this
Speaker 2 (19:43):
is gonna work. Really retired?
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Yeah. Yeah. Upset.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
And then I think I'm like, I'm done. That was the
last one. If that was the lastone, I'm good. And then I'm
like, this thing's kinda cool,though. You know?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I mean, I was definitely done managing.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
There was no way
Speaker 1 (19:58):
I was ever gonna do that again, and then here we
are.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
It's weird. Sometimes it's like that about 2 or 2.
Like, I think about it when I'mlooking at the routing, then I
love to, but I haven't left.Yeah. Do you know what I mean?
And so I end up, like, you know,that council don't grocery shop
hungry?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
So here I am in my comfortable chair. I'm like,
maybe we could hit well, holdon. Let me just pull up a map.
And as soon as I say, let holdon. Let me just pull up a map.
Like, everything's posed becauseI'm trying to add filler case
for no reason.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
That's amazing. I would be shooting myself in the
foot if I was bucking yourtourist for sure. Who is you got
8 UTA is dealing with yourstuff. Right? Yeah.
I'm with you. Awesome. They'regood group of group good group
of people over there. I reallylike them. Cool.
It it can be exhausting.Actually, talking about that
drawing can be exhausting. Howdo, like, how do you may
(20:50):
maintain your energy?
Speaker 2 (20:52):
I mean, I the honest answer is occasionally, I don't.
Like, occasionally, I just like,I lost my voice at the beginning
of this year.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Which I haven't done like that before. I've gotten
raspy for sure. And maybe onceor twice, I've had to be like, I
just don't have enough to put onthe show. Like, I canceled the
one I remember being, I don'tknow, like, 29 or something,
canceling a one off in Chicagoand, like, losing sleep over it
just so I didn't have the voice.This time, it was heavy.
And I was like, yeah. That'sthat's part of it. Right? It's
(21:19):
like for however committed andhowever hungry you are, like,
you are also, like, a machinemade out of meat that needs,
like, sleep and
Speaker 1 (21:30):
sunlight, all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
So I would say that the the ways that I do try to
manage it is, like, I don't dothe full country anymore. Like
Mhmm. That noise. Like, I notyou know, when I I'm making a
butterfly gesture with my fingerbecause, you know, it used to be
that starting out inMinneapolis, you could kinda do
the country in 2 wings. Youknow?
Like, no one else would causedown the other. For us, anyway,
(21:52):
that took something like 56days.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Mhmm.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
And that's a big no thank you for young that I mean,
like, if if somehow somethingwere to pop like crazy and I was
in at a beautiful bus and therewere days between shows, but,
like, barring miraculousintervention, for me, like, I
like doing little short burstsand then coming home. You know?
So part of it isn't just Yeah.Yeah. Like, planning how the
(22:17):
routing works is a big deal too.
I don't like to spend more than6 or 7 hours in the car anymore.
Whereas I think, you know, onoccasion, we were doing these
big overnight drives in the car,and, you know, the guys would
pull over and we'd catch a fewhours in a Walmart Walmart
parking lot or whatever.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
And Yeah. I think that always that can be the
tough thing for fans that arecoming to see shows.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
They're not getting out. Fun.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
That's no. That's like the yeah. I mean, they paid
the money. They're there forthat hour. They wanna see
something, and they don'trealize that, like, you spent
most of your time in the car.
You spend an hour and a halfthere, you know. So it's like,
you gotta work together on this.You know what I mean? Sometimes
it's not gonna be, you know, asperfect as you think. So I I I
(23:02):
totally agree with that.
I I had someone reach out to me.I won't get into the details of
who it was, but they're a prettybig artist. And they were like,
hey. I know you don't usually dothis, but we really need your
help. Somebody fell through.
Would you be interested in, TMing a tour? And I'm like, I
don't know. They're like, wecould pay you double you know,
it's a whole long courtingprocess. And they sent me the
(23:24):
routing, and I was like,absolutely not. There was one
day off.
There was one day off
Speaker 2 (23:29):
How many, like, bro?
Speaker 1 (23:30):
51 days. One day. I was like, absolutely not. Now
granted, it was 2 King Airs withan additional I mean, it was a
pretty big tour, but I was like
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Tell me you don't have to tell me what it was, but
kinda just follow ups here. Ijust wanna make sure I
understand. You're saying 51days.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
51 days with one day off.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Were some of those, like and now we're gonna play 7
nights all in the same city?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
No. There was only 1 with 2 nights. Sorry. So that
technically would be becausethere was 1 with 2 nights in the
same city, but the rest was all,like it was the most ridiculous
tour I've ever seen. And I waslike, I don't, Is it hip hop?
Right? It was rap. Well, kindof. Yeah. It was rap.
And I was like, I don't knowlike, have you done this before?
(24:19):
Like, is this how you guys tour?And they were like, and you're
gonna like, long They had, like,some big people on the tour, and
they're like, and we need youto, like, babysit them. And I
was like, absolutely not. Thisis not what I do.
Absolutely not. I don't know howanyone does that. I don't know
how, like I mean, I guess if youhave to make the money, you have
to make the money, but that'scrazy to me. There's no way.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
I've never heard that. I'll be out like and I I
complain about it. So, like, I'mat the point where I'm like, I
caught a fish this big. Like, Iwill talk about my thing. I've
never heard of anything likethat.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
We would
Speaker 1 (24:49):
we would pretty insane.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
For 8 days running, but we wouldn't do 26 days
running. That's insane.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
And it was, like, around Christmas and
Thanksgiving. It was, like, thecraziest thing I'd ever seen in
my life. I was like, this makesno sense.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I wonder if I honestly did that tour make it?
Like, did you follow? Oh,
Speaker 1 (25:05):
that tour happened. Oh, yeah. That tour happened,
and it and it went swimmingly.I'll tell you who it was offline
just because because once I tellyou, you'll be like, oh, that
makes sense.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Oh, yeah. And then, you know, thinking about time my
time at Rhymesayers, I rememberAce would do 2 weeks on, 1 week
off. So he would so he would do,like let's say he did, like, a,
like, a did, like, 6 weeks oftouring, but he would do it over
however many weeks because hewould do 2 weeks in one region,
then he'd go home for a week.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Then he'd
Speaker 1 (25:35):
go do 2 weeks in another region, then go home for
a week, and then go do you know,like, that was his that was his
move. And I think he was ontosomething because that was kinda
early, and we talked all kindatrash about him doing it and
being like, dude, you're wastingmoney, and now it makes so much
sense. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Totally with you.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
It makes so much sense. You you have, like I
don't know. How many live showsdo you think you have under your
belt? A bajillion?
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Oh, gosh. I've never really done the math. I mean, I
you know, I always felt like Iwas only maybe like, some of the
hard touring cats that were, youknow, in our kind of general
circle. I mean, they were doingwhat do they call it? Like, a
hot 100 when you have a yearwhere you do a hot some of them
were messing like, flirting with200 shows.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Yeah. Yeah. It's insane.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
That's never been me. Like, I'm much more, like, you
know, 75 or 80 on an album year.Like, it's great great plenty
for me. So
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Yeah. How do you keep, like, doing that many
shows? How do you keep themfeeling? Like, what do you do?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yeah. Fresh and engaging. Do I don't do as I
don't do that many anymore.Like, I think Mhmm. I think,
also, this is different, youknow, when you're running your
own ship, obviously, becauseyour artistic decisions are
yours to make and then reap thesuccesses or, you know, like,
mourn your humiliating failures.
(26:57):
All of that's on you. Right? SoI would say that the thing that
is a solo artist I do that isdifferent from the way that I've
ever worked in groups is likeMhmm. When I get to the and it's
a pain in the ass for some of myplayers sometimes. Fully we'll
note that at the top.
But, like, I'll get to the venueand, you know, check out the
opening act if we don't knowthem or whatever and just, like,
(27:18):
kinda get a sense of how the howthe room sounds, you know, clap
a bunch of times or just pop offstage while the beats run-in.
Because as you know, I mean, thesame beat played, right, in a
400 cap club in a cross cansound so insanely different
depending on the sound system.Like, truly insane. And some
(27:39):
rooms, particularly those thatweren't built for that kind of
either for live performance. Youknow, you're in a museum.
Like, you're doing some weirdlibrary thing.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
You're doing
Speaker 2 (27:45):
a theater gig. Okay. Well, there's no subs. So, like,
the sexy hard hitting momenthere might as well be ballet.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
It ain't happening. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
It's not it will not be present this evening. And
then there's some other, likeyou know, I played in a cave
once when I was opening for,thievery corporation. And the
cave is just as you imagine. Youknow, you clap once and you hear
it ring for 12. Yeah.
Because it's a fucking cave,man. And so if you if you're
playing big drug, they're justgonna go you're just gonna get
garbage. So I make set list alot of times after I get to the
(28:17):
venue so that every night isdesigned around whatever the
hell is going on. You know, abig election was just just swung
the wrong way or, you know, ifyou're in Philly, however, the
sports team did matters a fuckton. To try to, like, build an
evening that isn't trying toreach the highs or recreate the
successes of last night, butresponsive time to, hey.
(28:40):
This show's sold out. Don't thisshow is not.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Okay. I gotta win them, and I don't want them to
feel you know, sometimes you getthat thing where if a room isn't
as full as you want, like, theaudience is so concerned about
you that it's distracting. Theycan't have fun by themselves
because they're worried ifyou're salty. Right. So, yeah,
that to me helps each night feeldifferent because I I hate like,
I would I just like, Broadwayfolks, you know, how they're
(29:05):
doing the same thing everynight.
Granted, they polished it up.It's, you know, a fine gem in
their world, but I just doingthe same thing every night.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
I only
Speaker 2 (29:13):
got so many nights to be alive, and I want all of them
to be different.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah. I feel like you I I feel like in the process of
doing that too, you kinda createa world every night that's both
for you and for the people thatthat are there. Right? Like,
it's like a a more of a mixed,night that night, which I think
is awesome. Really, really cool.
I've got I've been lucky enoughto see you perform a bunch of
times, and I can't say that itwas the exact same ever anytime
(29:38):
I've seen you perform.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
So it
Speaker 1 (29:40):
was awesome. I can say that much, but, yeah. Wait.
For your what's your favoritecity? Yeah.
Put it up now. Put it up rightnow. Do it right now from
everybody. I'm kidding.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
I love I love New York. Yeah. I'm I'm recording
from New York. I live here athalftime. And
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Dude, like, I just love it in such an uncomplicated
childlike way that everybodywho's been here long and he's
like, wait till you but I'm justI'm not over it yet. I think New
York
Speaker 1 (30:09):
is Right.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
I do love it. I do love it. Does it love me quite
as hard? Probably not, butthat's part of the story.
Uh-huh.
Yeah. I, you know, I I kindastarted splitting my time, I
don't know, 6 or 7 years ago. II don't keep great records. But
part of the appeal for me was,like, the paint writing in a
(30:31):
page way. So, like, I think alot of them, like, super dope
designers, you know, live inBrooklyn.
And I was like, where didDorothy Parker live? You know? I
want I wanted that world. So,so, yeah, like, I live in, you
know, in a one bedroom inManhattan when I'm here. Nice.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Like you said In Manhattan even. Holy moly, man.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Excuse me.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
What'd you say?
Speaker 2 (30:53):
I said, oh, excuse me. Just drop
Speaker 1 (30:55):
your pants over here. Put your hands over here. Yeah.
Oh. Oh, boy.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Man. Manhattan. But like you said, with waking up
every day, yeah, even when it'seven in its shittiest to me.
Like, New York is still reallycharming. Like, I feel like it
doesn't there's not too manydays that go by before, again, I
find, like, Nelia.
Like, I'm just, you know, in myhead. Like, I really like it.
(31:22):
There's I have, like, a a fruitguy just like the guy in the
corner who sells fruit. Youknow? And Yeah.
And the I don't I don't totallyknow his name. I don't think he
knows my name, but we both knowthat our name
Speaker 1 (31:32):
is You know each other.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
And we do this dance every time, and I go, and he
does this little dance, and it'stime to date. And we just, like,
you know, fruit or no fruittransaction. It's a
choreographed exchange.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Amazing. You
Speaker 2 (31:45):
could live in Minneapolis for a 100 lifetimes
before you have a choreographeddance with your fruit vendor.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
It's never gonna happen. It's never gonna you
might no. No. It probably is.Well, maybe.
I don't know. But it's adifferent. I'm not and not to
shit on me okay. Not to shit onMinneapolis. I was just there
for a week.
I went to Duluth. I took my mamato Duluth for her birthday. It's
beautiful in Duluth. People arenice in Duluth. You know?
(32:13):
Not to shit on Minneapolis, but
Speaker 2 (32:15):
It's just a different city. Man. Are so It's just a
Speaker 1 (32:18):
different vibe. It's a completely different vibe. You
know? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
I feel like Minneapolis did such a did did
and does. Like, I think anunusually good job at like, when
you're a starting out artist,there are so many organic ways
to, like, what was your firstopen mic? You know what I mean?
There's just so many stages andso many places, like, you know,
(32:43):
from coffee shops to the, youknow, little tiny venues to oh,
okay. Here's the Loft literarycenter to here's, Cedar Cultural
Center who's gonna have, like,artists come through that might
not be able to, you know,totally provide a windfall for a
promoter Yep.
With a fucking report.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Exactly. Culturally. But they're gonna put the money
into it. Yep.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Exactly. I think Minneapolis is really good at
that. But I think at least asnear as I've discovered, like,
New York isn't like, do you needa hand? Like, let me lay this
nose. Use this as a step.
But I think that I think thathaving a really big dream can
come off as conceded in inMinneapolis in a way that
Speaker 1 (33:24):
This is true. New York.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Yeah. It can it can come off as conceded or come off
as, like, that's lofty. Youknow? Exactly. But but
Speaker 2 (33:32):
with one eyebrow up, like, that's lofty.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Yeah. Thank you. No. Not lofty in a good way. Lofty
in, like, that's not in anywherenear possible.
Right?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Who were you to think you could? That kind of thing a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
I even, like, I even, like, work you know, working in
music, like, at home where,like, the thing that I did was a
kind of a big deal. Right? And,like, would meet people who are
just weren't, and then I'll go,oh, well, what do you do? Oh, I
work in music. They'd be like,You know?
Like, that's crazy to them. It'snot a possible, you know, it's
(34:04):
just not realistic. You know?
Speaker 2 (34:05):
So Yeah. That's I don't know. Funny. God, that's
so funny now that you say itbecause I know exactly it's so
much better said. Because Ithink a lot of times, you know,
I'd meet somebody and what doyou do or whatever?
Yeah. Say it. You know? Andthen, oh, like, for weddings or
Yep. Yep.
You're Essentially, what you'resaying is that's an unattainable
dream that you already haveattained.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yep. Yep. To them, they're like, you haven't
attained shit probably.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
What are
Speaker 1 (34:30):
you doing here? Like, yeah. No. A 1000%. I mean, that
used to happen all the time.
And, like, I I'm like, oh, okay.And now even now I mean, even
now well, for other reasons nowwhen I'm, like, traveling,
people will be like, oh, what doyou do? And I'm like, well, I'm
I'm the founder of a start up,and they're like, yeah. Okay.
But that's for other reasons
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Like obviously. Like, good good luck. Like, nobody
makes it.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Anyways, so sorry we gotcompletely sidetracked. I wanna
let you get out of here. I wannarespect your time. I really,
really appreciate you coming onand chatting. I would like for
you to talk about really quicklywhat you have coming up.
I know you have a podcast rightnow.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
I used to have a podcast.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Oh, no. What happened?
Speaker 2 (35:19):
I had a podcast with with the BBC and APM that was
called, Deeply Human. And it'sreally good. So whatever. People
are looking for a, you know, alittle retro listening. I I
think they hold up pretty well.
It was on science y stuff.Awesome. Right now, I am gearing
up for the publication of, like,a collaborative book that I did
(35:40):
with, bartender slash like, Idon't know even right. He said
that mixologist can sorta comeoff like meh. But I can.
Person essentially who designs,like, beverage menus and Uh-huh.
You know, builds cocktails. Sohe's worked for, like, you know,
dozens of restaurants to, like,figure out what their best plan
is. Anyway, his name is MarcoZappia, and he's I just thought
(36:01):
I just think he's great. I,like, ran across some of his
work a few years ago and madethat note.
Like, I have no idea why wewould collaborate on anything at
any time. But I just thinkyou're absolutely your job, and
if I can make up an excuse towork with you, and then I found
them. So, my yeah. So we've gota cocktail book coming out, in
November called Bury the Lead, acocktail book.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Amazing. Bury the Lead, a cocktail book, I assume
will be available everywherewhere you can buy books.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Absolutely not. It'll be available from a bunch of
places and on the Internet.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Awesome. So cool. Definitely go get that. I will,
you know, the fact that Icompletely missed that you had a
podcast has kinda pissed me off.So I will be going back and
listening to every episode.
I'm also that that's just I haveproblems with this. I listen to
a lot of podcasts andsurprisingly a lot of science
based stuff. Really? I'm verymuch into. Yeah.
(37:00):
Yeah. 1000%. Very much into. Idon't know if you, you might
find her interesting. You shouldcheck her out.
Her name is Coppola in a pot.She's on TikTok, and she also
just recently wrote a book. Andso text me her name? Absolutely.
Absolutely will.
So, yeah, I'm I'm very much intothe cosmos, so, like, I'm all
(37:20):
about it. So I will definitelycheck it out. Listen. Thank you
so much for coming on. I reallyappreciate you taking the time,
to chop it up.
We have to set up time to talkmore, so I will be I will take
the, the reins to be able to dothat. But, yeah, I really
appreciate you coming on, and,let's look out for that book.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
This was so fun. This is the most fun I've had
guessing on a podcast in a longtime, and now I get to leave and
you have to edit, which is thebest of all possible.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Thanks for tuning in to the loadout. This episode was
produced by me with music by theincredible Mike and additional
editing and mixing also by Mike.If you enjoyed this
conversation, don't forget tosubscribe and rate the podcast.
Follow me at probably Ashanti onall platforms. Until next time,
keep buying those tickets.
Peace.
Welcome to the loadout. I'm your host, Ashanti
Abdulla. In each week, we takeyou behind the scenes of the
live music industry From touringtips and industry insights to
candid conversations withartists, managers, and music
professionals, we uncover thestories and strategies that make
live performances unforgettable.Whether you're an artist, a tour
manager, or just a live musicenthusiast, this podcast is your
(00:32):
backstage pass to the world oftouring and live events. Today,
I'm really excited for our cast,Dessa.
You've heard of her as a memberof Doomtree, but she's also an
accomplished author with herbook My Own Devices earning
critical acclaim, and she'shosted the BBC's Deeply Human
podcast. Today, we're gonna talkabout how she balances writing,
(00:53):
music, and broadcasting,
Speaker 2 (00:53):
and what keeps her motivated across these different
creative fields.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Let's get into the show. I'm motivated across these
different creative fields. Let'sget into the show. Dessa, how
are you? I'm good.
I'm good. The casual answer
Speaker 2 (01:02):
is good, man. How are you? The honest thing is like,
pretty good. I think, like, asunny day helps for me, like, to
an extraordinary extent, like,how I think my entire life is
going.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Totally agree. Although I do have day you know,
living in the bay, I do havelike, it's been so sunny lately.
I I don't know. I go the otherway sometimes too. I'm gonna be
honest with you.
Like, I'm, like, I need somerain.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Not sound very generous. Like, I don't know. I
just I have so much health andwell-being, and I'm so satisfied
that sometimes I'm like, toohappy. And I have to, like, roll
back.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
No. When I lived in I used to live in Phoenix. Right?
And when I lived down there, itliterally was sunny so many days
that I got depressed. Like, Igot depressed because it I was,
like, woah.
There is no change of anything?Like, this is too much, you
know?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah. It's funny. When you say Phoenix, now I'm
really sympathetic to it. Butthat's also Yeah. More of heat
and, you know, just unrelenting.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah. It is unbelievably unrelenting. And
although I will say Phoenix haschanged quite a bit. I've been
down there a few times. It's amuch more beautiful place than
it was 20 years ago.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
But I hated every moment of it. I'm just gonna
Speaker 2 (02:13):
be honest with you.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I was so happy to get the hell out of there. I I'm
really stoked to have you onmainly because we've been in,
like, around each other's orbitfor quite some time. I don't
think we've ever sat down andhad a conversation before, so
I'm super excited to just chopit up with you, number 1. And
I'm really thankful that youwere like, yeah. I'll hop on
with you, and we got this donepretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Totally game. I feel like we've been half a degree of
separation for 20 years andhaven't
Speaker 1 (02:42):
At a minimum. Definitely at a minimum. Might
maybe even more that we're,like, unaware of. Yeah. I know
this is the, like you know,we'll do the qualifying
question, which is I mean I Imean, look, you built a pretty
incredible career from, like,back in the early 2000 and to
where you're at right now.
It's unbelievable. Just kindalooking through things that
(03:03):
maybe I wasn't even fully awareof, it's it's kinda mind
blowing. But taking it back tothe beginning, like, how did you
like, where? How? How did thisall start?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah. I mean, I think probably like a lot of people,
the parameters of my career havesort of been set by the walls
that I tried to push over andcouldn't quite push down. Like,
this is what I really want, andI can't get it. So what's the
closest thing I can do? Right.
When I was yeah. I did go tocollege in in Minnesota. I went
to the University of Minnesota,and I studied, studied
(03:34):
philosophy there, which I dug. Ilove that. I love the education,
and it still changes the way Ithink about the world.
And it doesn't really set you upfor a clear professional
trajectory.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Right? Never never does. Right?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
So I I had wanted to be like a creative writer. I I
loved, I loved personal essays,which sound drier than they are.
It's just like true stories,but, you know, that are written
with all the skills that you useto write fiction and start
stories. Suspense and humor,character development, blah blah
blah. I loved that form.
I wrote a bunch of essays andsent them out and then, like,
(04:09):
never heard back from absolutelyanybody. So, like, I I was
making zero traction trying tofigure out, like, okay. If I if
I came up in Minnesota, like andthe magazines that I knew about
that were, like, literary andcool. Mhmm. Now we're on the
East Coast, and and theywouldn't write me back.
What's the thing? What's what'sthe intermediary step? How do
you get started? And I'd had abad breakup, and my roommate at
(04:33):
the time, Jacqueline, who was,like, exponentially hipper than
I was, like, we managed. She waslike, you need to put some
payers out.
Like, you cannot live in yourbedroom like this. You know?
Come on. I'm taking you out. Andshe took me to a poetry slam.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Oh, nice.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, that was Wait.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Were, like, in Minneapolis or, like, at school
Speaker 2 (04:53):
or like Saint Paul? It was like, Kieran's Irish Pub.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Oh my lord.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
I can't remember what it was. Hello. And while we were
there, she was like, yo. Youknow, I think I think you could
do this. And I was like, I thinkI could do this.
And so went back, you know, thenext month I had and and
slammed, and I can we swear? Wecould swear. Right?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah. Of course. You
Speaker 2 (05:16):
can do
Speaker 1 (05:16):
whatever the fuck you want.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
The fuck we want. So I rolled up, and I, you know,
I'd prepared my poems orwhatever and won and thought I
was, like, absolutely hot shit.I was feeling myself and then
was, like, very quickly informedthat, like, all of the good
poets are out of town on tour.So, like
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Oh, boy.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
That y'all that you think you're on is real.
Elevation's real modest rightnow. But for me, that was the
you know, there was such anoverlap then. That was still,
like, deaf poetry jam on HBO.There's such an overlap of,
like, the hip hop communitiesand, you know, everybody from,
like, Saul Williams who kindaworked in both worlds and Yeah.
(05:55):
Most deaf obviously was wasinvolved in that community and
Sage Francis. So it's likeseeing performers who were doing
hip hop stuff, but at first inthis unaccompanied way. It was
my first, like, entree intoperformance. So then there,
there was a rapper in the roomwho was like, yo. You know,
would you do this do this withmy over some beats that I've got
(06:15):
in building a a group?
And that seemed like, is thislegit? And I texted her. Like,
is this guy creepy? She waslike, no. No.
He's cool. I was like, okay.Let's go. So, yeah, that was my
couldn't be a writer. Was amedium slam artist and then
started, you know, startingrapping.
(06:35):
Yeah. Through the I don't know.Like, I got I got some good our
scene in Minneapolis was sofertile. Like, there was just a
lot of a lot of pretty generousartists in that community who
were game to be like, hey. Youare not phenomenal, and Right.
You got potential. Like, that'scool. Right. I'm gonna kick it.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Right. I think the great the good rush to the to
roast to the top, obviously. Ithink that happens in any, like,
competitive market. Right?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Well, when you still are
Speaker 1 (07:03):
like, you. The good people kinda rose to the top Oh,
Speaker 2 (07:06):
good people.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
With that. Yeah. Yep. I'm not saying that there aren't
people that weren't great that,like, didn't end up getting a
shot at it. But, you know,there's obviously multiple
reasons why.
Right? So there's a little bitof luck that comes along with
some of that stuff too. 100%.Having the right people around
you, blah blah blah blah blah.But at the very least, you'd
probably need to be good.
(07:28):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah. So I think also
Speaker 1 (07:30):
I mean,
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I well, I, like, taught for a while, and I say
this a lot in classes, but I,you know, I understood, like,
music to be, like, the NFL orsomething. Like, it was just so
so competitive that it just feltlike, man, you had better be,
like, the top 10th of 1percentile to do anything in it.
Yeah. And it's really surprisedme how much, like, being likable
(07:52):
and kind actually matters.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
So much. It goes so far. Yeah. It goes so far. It
goes so far.
I mean, we we talk about that alot on this podcast of, like,
when you're touring and, like,the different venues you go to
and things like that. And just,like, being happy to be there,
because you should be, like, goso far with the people that you
end up working with and thesecrunchy old sound dudes that
(08:15):
just, like, have no interest in,like, dealing with the rapper.
They wanna do a band. Even thateven they're just all over the
place. And, like, they, youknow, it goes a really long way.
And that is true. That is true.I mean, there has to be,
clearly, there has to besomething. Right? Something
about you.
It could just be who you are. Itcould be the talent that you
have around, you know, music orwhatever the deal is. But, yes,
(08:38):
being a wonderful person goes areally long way. I totally agree
with that a 1000%.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Even yeah. Like, now, you know, when I'm getting ready
to go on the road and I'm andI'm hiring musicians, it's like,
okay. Well, you can obviouslyshred your phenomenal Yeah.
Pianist. You know?
But I spend an hour and a halfon the stage with you, and I
spent 8 hours in the band with
Speaker 1 (08:59):
you. So, like Yep.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah. Personal.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah. Mhmm. It's a big it's a big deal. I have had
those discussions, you know,outside of Turnwell. I run San
Francisco Supply, whichmanagement company.
Manage some people here on hereand there. Mike is probably the
main person, that that we workwith right now. But, we've had
(09:22):
some of those discussionsrecently just because he is now
starting to okay, things arehappening in the background that
I can't talk about right now,but things things are happening.
Right? So, like, we're startingto have those discussions
around, you know, well, you wedo know this is out there.
He's touring in in Europe this,this Yes. This December. But,
like, explaining to him, like,how that works and how that
(09:45):
could be a major problem if thatif the right people aren't. It's
a lot. There's a lot that goesinto touring.
I think people just kinda hopinto it, and they're like, man.
I then again, we did too, but welearned. We learned along
Speaker 2 (09:57):
the way. And, also, I think it's so much, like,
informal apprenticeship. Like,somebody taught me anyway. Yo.
This is what a day sheet is.
This is what Van Call is. It'snot cute to be late. Like, it's
really not cute. You know what Imean? This is how like, the
systems and it's funny becausein some ways, I feel like, you
know, so much of industry like,business industry, you've got
(10:18):
best practice books.
Right? Yep. I feel like the waythat the generational knowledge
of how to tour passes, so muchof that is hand is like the way
that hopscotch rhymes. Like, theway that I do old Dutch rhymes.
Like, there's no handbook.
It was just like twirl.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yep. 1000%.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
I know. Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Thousand%. I'm gonna shamelessly plug Turnwell
because that was kind of theidea. Right? Like, we we could
obviously service, like, largeKendrick Lamar size or or tours
with Turnwheel. But for thatbrand new artist that goes out,
there's all these things in herethat you're like, wait a minute.
This is a check. Oh, shit. Igotta think about that too.
(11:02):
Yeah. Like, that's kinda why webuilt it so we could create a
best practice for for the, forthe market for people that are
out touring.
Because, ultimately, you know aswell as I do, this is a full
time business. It's its ownthing, and you gotta be serious
about it. These these day sheetsand and Van Call, all this
stuff, it's super important.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
And sloppiness cost money. You know, when you say
you're
Speaker 1 (11:23):
It costs a lot of money. It costs a lot of money.
Sorry. Going back to totalsidebar. Going back to you.
Going back to you. You're knownfor, like, super powerful
lyricism, and blending genres,things of that nature. When you
approach songwriting, how how doyou approach it? Is it, like,
lyrics first, melody, anotherelement? Like, how is this how
(11:43):
do these ideas come to you?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
I'd say for me, very often, it's like little scraps
of language. You know? So littletiny not whole verses. Sometimes
even just an image, 2 wordstogether. Sometimes, you know, a
2 bar or whatever, a couplet.
And I'll write those piecesdown, and then it's not until
I've got music that I'll usuallyplay it on repeat and sort of
(12:05):
review those scraps. You knowwhat I mean? To see what can be
assembled into a whole lyrics.And that would be the time at
which I start thinking melodiestoo. Yeah.
For me, like, god, the idea ofcoming up with melody. You know,
because even rap verse, I wastalking to my musical director
who's also an MC, Jelly, JoshuaWilliams. And I was talking,
(12:25):
like, you know, we don't notateit, and there's no reason to,
but rap versus have melodies.Like, if you were to pitch 1 up
half a step and then put it backon the beat, it would sound
truly.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Completely different. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
You're wrong. We would not Exactly. You know? And
so even if it's, you know, onlyoperating within, like, I don't
know, 2 or 3 notes, that's howthat would be the time when I
start to figure out melodies isthe beat running. And sometimes
I'll describe it likepaleontology.
Like, I've got all these tinylittle dino bones, and now I
(12:58):
gotta figure out, like, wherethe, you know, pterodactyl is.
You know?
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Right. How they all fit together.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Mhmm. Yeah. I
Speaker 1 (13:05):
always I tell everybody this that, is as
talented as you are, and I'mgonna never stop. I just don't
have it. I wish I did. I wish Iknew, but I oh, that kinda
talent? 0%.
I can't even draw a straightline. Anything artistic is never
gonna happen for me. Right? Ilearned that pretty early on,
which is why I sat my ass downin the business side of things.
(13:28):
So I was like, you're just notgood at this.
But I I envy it. I definitely do
Speaker 2 (13:32):
need it. Somewhere that like composition notebooks,
the old
Speaker 1 (13:35):
We're not gonna talk about what's out there because
there probably is stuff outthere. Right? But no one needs
to know about these things. Butyeah. I mean, I definitely,
like, I definitely envy it.
I do get luckily, get to spend alot of time in the studio,
Speaker 2 (13:49):
a lot of
Speaker 1 (13:50):
time with a lot of really cool people, and put my
little thoughts around things,which apparently people think
are good thoughts.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Like, often, like, production or, like, you
Speaker 1 (13:59):
know, like Yeah. On the production side of it. Like,
working with different artistswhen they're in the studio and,
you know, working withproducers, working with a bunch
of different people. So that'sthat, like, that's how I get my
creative outlet in it for sure.But it blows my mind, like, how
you and other people think aboutthese things.
It's I don't know. It's prettyamazing. Going into, talking
(14:22):
about touring, actually. I mean,you've toured you tour. It's
real.
It's like what you do. How'syour relationship, like, changed
with it? It's like from when youfirst started to, like, how it
is now.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yeah. I think I think for me, tour has been my
favorite part of the job for alot of years and my least
favorite part of the job.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
About to say I'm very surprised by that. Most people
hate it.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Do most people hate it?
Speaker 1 (14:50):
I feel like most people hate it that I talk to
that I talk to. I could bewrong. But most people I'm
around, there's not theirfavorite thing to do at all. You
know? But I think it's becausewe're all old.
Yes. So that
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
It'd be different. I think if everyone I knew is
younger maybe. Yeah. But, like,everyone's old, so no one likes
it anymore. But Yeah.
You know?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
I I think though even, like, you know, even when
I was in my twenties, like, Ilove I do love travel, just
generally. And, obviously, theidea is like, oh, wow. I could
you know, my my work, right,would would bring me around to
to be all these and also not asa vacationer because I think I I
feel like, I don't know, classguilt, I think. Like, if you go
(15:33):
to a country and you're justkicking it at a hotel with
people who are paid to make youfeel like, that doesn't that
doesn't seem like that thatmight be a good, like, restart
every once in a while. Right?
But that's not seeing the world.That's pain treatment. And
Right. And so the idea of, like,being able to travel and, like,
work with people in all thesedifferent countries.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
You know
Speaker 2 (15:53):
what I mean? And so for that day, you're kinda,
like, in the mix a little bit.That part of love. I get
irritated and fussy about thefact that, like, I just I just
sleep is so tough. Not because,like, oh, I can't sleep,
although it's also true, butbecause, like, that lifestyle is
it's built for business.
(16:14):
It's not built for owls. Youknow? And so the idea of, like,
checking into the hotel at 2 andvan call at 9, like, I'm over
that. So for me, in thebeginning, I think also probably
I would have been too shy to saythat I didn't love it because
there is definitely at leastwhen I started, there was
definitely that culture of,like, you ain't hungry then.
Like, if
Speaker 1 (16:33):
you Yeah. If you weren't hungry
Speaker 2 (16:35):
about one thing. And then you you know what I mean?
You're not somehow, like, livingup to the constant ready to go.
I got I remember beingchallenged like, do you have CDs
in your backpack? Because yougot a serial rapper if you don't
to to hand in hand over to, likeit was a different silly time.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
And it's totally like that's totally like some dumbass
sales managers, like, maneuveron some young salesperson right
now. Like, do you have businesscards on you? Because if you
don't, you're not serious aboutbeing a sales per you know what
I mean? Like
Speaker 2 (17:06):
It's so yeah. It's real laughable. But, you know,
there was there was it was tiedinto your personality in a
different way. You know? Like,underground hip hop meant that
you had to have, like,headphones and a hoodie on in
bed.
Definitely. And you couldn't belistening to pop music and
everybody did seriously. Like,you know Definitely. Yep.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
But so you you, you do love it. You don't love it,
but you do love it. Yeah. Imaybe the reason why I don't
like it as much Yeah. Anymore isbecause I'm obviously if I'm on
the road, which I still do fromtime to time, I still end up on
(17:51):
the road.
And if I am on the road, it'susually from it's from the all
work side. Like, there's no funfor this guy right here. You
know what I mean? It's like allwork, which is fine. Like, I I
I'm I I would I'd be kiddingmyself if I didn't say that I
didn't like it a little bit.
I do like spending the time withmy friends and the people that
(18:11):
I'm out with, and even peoplethat I don't know and meeting
new people. You meet so many newpeople all the time. It's so
much fun. But but, yeah, I'musually the one setting up the
time and having to be there atthe time and doing the time and
you know what I mean? So it'snot as fun, from from my side of
it.
Days off are always nice, and Itry to schedule things so people
(18:34):
get a little bit of time to seethings when they're in town.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
That's cool.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
But there is something that you do get
connected to everywhere you go,which is, like, the music
industry in that country. Like,the people come out to these
things, and that's always thefun part, is making those
connections. Because you know aswell as I do, you might make a
connection in 2,005 that is
Speaker 2 (18:55):
a
Speaker 1 (18:55):
completely different connection in 2020. You know
what I mean? That's pretty
Speaker 2 (18:59):
cool. I mean, on this call even. I mean, you know,
there's been a lot of mileage,I'm sure, between the first time
that between the roles thatwe're filling now and the first
time between the roles thatwe're filling now and the first
time Exactly. Names crossed
Speaker 1 (19:08):
one another's orbit. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
A 1000%. A 1000%. Who became who now works in digital
distribution, you know,
Speaker 1 (19:11):
and the so
Speaker 2 (19:12):
and so who's now in ANR. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
When they were still acting. Stick around this. Like,
I quit. I quit, like, 9 yearsago.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
What'd you
Speaker 1 (19:25):
do? I'm done. Nothing. I was, like, I'm not
doing music. F this.
I'm done with this. And then Iwent and built a fucking music
company, like, immediately.Like, I was We don't go away.
It's not a it doesn't matter howmuch we try to pretend like this
Speaker 2 (19:43):
is gonna work. Really retired?
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Yeah. Yeah. Upset.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
And then I think I'm like, I'm done. That was the
last one. If that was the lastone, I'm good. And then I'm
like, this thing's kinda cool,though. You know?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I mean, I was definitely done managing.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
There was no way
Speaker 1 (19:58):
I was ever gonna do that again, and then here we
are.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
It's weird. Sometimes it's like that about 2 or 2.
Like, I think about it when I'mlooking at the routing, then I
love to, but I haven't left.Yeah. Do you know what I mean?
And so I end up, like, you know,that council don't grocery shop
hungry?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
So here I am in my comfortable chair. I'm like,
maybe we could hit well, holdon. Let me just pull up a map.
And as soon as I say, let holdon. Let me just pull up a map.
Like, everything's posed becauseI'm trying to add filler case
for no reason.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
That's amazing. I would be shooting myself in the
foot if I was bucking yourtourist for sure. Who is you got
8 UTA is dealing with yourstuff. Right? Yeah.
I'm with you. Awesome. They'regood group of group good group
of people over there. I reallylike them. Cool.
It it can be exhausting.Actually, talking about that
drawing can be exhausting. Howdo, like, how do you may
(20:50):
maintain your energy?
Speaker 2 (20:52):
I mean, I the honest answer is occasionally, I don't.
Like, occasionally, I just like,I lost my voice at the beginning
of this year.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Which I haven't done like that before. I've gotten
raspy for sure. And maybe onceor twice, I've had to be like, I
just don't have enough to put onthe show. Like, I canceled the
one I remember being, I don'tknow, like, 29 or something,
canceling a one off in Chicagoand, like, losing sleep over it
just so I didn't have the voice.This time, it was heavy.
And I was like, yeah. That'sthat's part of it. Right? It's
(21:19):
like for however committed andhowever hungry you are, like,
you are also, like, a machinemade out of meat that needs,
like, sleep and
Speaker 1 (21:30):
sunlight, all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
So I would say that the the ways that I do try to
manage it is, like, I don't dothe full country anymore. Like
Mhmm. That noise. Like, I notyou know, when I I'm making a
butterfly gesture with my fingerbecause, you know, it used to be
that starting out inMinneapolis, you could kinda do
the country in 2 wings. Youknow?
Like, no one else would causedown the other. For us, anyway,
(21:52):
that took something like 56days.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Mhmm.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
And that's a big no thank you for young that I mean,
like, if if somehow somethingwere to pop like crazy and I was
in at a beautiful bus and therewere days between shows, but,
like, barring miraculousintervention, for me, like, I
like doing little short burstsand then coming home. You know?
So part of it isn't just Yeah.Yeah. Like, planning how the
(22:17):
routing works is a big deal too.
I don't like to spend more than6 or 7 hours in the car anymore.
Whereas I think, you know, onoccasion, we were doing these
big overnight drives in the car,and, you know, the guys would
pull over and we'd catch a fewhours in a Walmart Walmart
parking lot or whatever.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
And Yeah. I think that always that can be the
tough thing for fans that arecoming to see shows.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
They're not getting out. Fun.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
That's no. That's like the yeah. I mean, they paid
the money. They're there forthat hour. They wanna see
something, and they don'trealize that, like, you spent
most of your time in the car.
You spend an hour and a halfthere, you know. So it's like,
you gotta work together on this.You know what I mean? Sometimes
it's not gonna be, you know, asperfect as you think. So I I I
(23:02):
totally agree with that.
I I had someone reach out to me.I won't get into the details of
who it was, but they're a prettybig artist. And they were like,
hey. I know you don't usually dothis, but we really need your
help. Somebody fell through.
Would you be interested in, TMing a tour? And I'm like, I
don't know. They're like, wecould pay you double you know,
it's a whole long courtingprocess. And they sent me the
(23:24):
routing, and I was like,absolutely not. There was one
day off.
There was one day off
Speaker 2 (23:29):
How many, like, bro?
Speaker 1 (23:30):
51 days. One day. I was like, absolutely not. Now
granted, it was 2 King Airs withan additional I mean, it was a
pretty big tour, but I was like
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Tell me you don't have to tell me what it was, but
kinda just follow ups here. Ijust wanna make sure I
understand. You're saying 51days.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
51 days with one day off.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Were some of those, like and now we're gonna play 7
nights all in the same city?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
No. There was only 1 with 2 nights. Sorry. So that
technically would be becausethere was 1 with 2 nights in the
same city, but the rest was all,like it was the most ridiculous
tour I've ever seen. And I waslike, I don't, Is it hip hop?
Right? It was rap. Well, kindof. Yeah. It was rap.
And I was like, I don't knowlike, have you done this before?
(24:19):
Like, is this how you guys tour?And they were like, and you're
gonna like, long They had, like,some big people on the tour, and
they're like, and we need youto, like, babysit them. And I
was like, absolutely not. Thisis not what I do.
Absolutely not. I don't know howanyone does that. I don't know
how, like I mean, I guess if youhave to make the money, you have
to make the money, but that'scrazy to me. There's no way.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
I've never heard that. I'll be out like and I I
complain about it. So, like, I'mat the point where I'm like, I
caught a fish this big. Like, Iwill talk about my thing. I've
never heard of anything likethat.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
We would
Speaker 1 (24:49):
we would pretty insane.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
For 8 days running, but we wouldn't do 26 days
running. That's insane.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
And it was, like, around Christmas and
Thanksgiving. It was, like, thecraziest thing I'd ever seen in
my life. I was like, this makesno sense.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I wonder if I honestly did that tour make it?
Like, did you follow? Oh,
Speaker 1 (25:05):
that tour happened. Oh, yeah. That tour happened,
and it and it went swimmingly.I'll tell you who it was offline
just because because once I tellyou, you'll be like, oh, that
makes sense.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Oh, yeah. And then, you know, thinking about time my
time at Rhymesayers, I rememberAce would do 2 weeks on, 1 week
off. So he would so he would do,like let's say he did, like, a,
like, a did, like, 6 weeks oftouring, but he would do it over
however many weeks because hewould do 2 weeks in one region,
then he'd go home for a week.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Then he'd
Speaker 1 (25:35):
go do 2 weeks in another region, then go home for
a week, and then go do you know,like, that was his that was his
move. And I think he was ontosomething because that was kinda
early, and we talked all kindatrash about him doing it and
being like, dude, you're wastingmoney, and now it makes so much
sense. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Totally with you.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
It makes so much sense. You you have, like I
don't know. How many live showsdo you think you have under your
belt? A bajillion?
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Oh, gosh. I've never really done the math. I mean, I
you know, I always felt like Iwas only maybe like, some of the
hard touring cats that were, youknow, in our kind of general
circle. I mean, they were doingwhat do they call it? Like, a
hot 100 when you have a yearwhere you do a hot some of them
were messing like, flirting with200 shows.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Yeah. Yeah. It's insane.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
That's never been me. Like, I'm much more, like, you
know, 75 or 80 on an album year.Like, it's great great plenty
for me. So
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Yeah. How do you keep, like, doing that many
shows? How do you keep themfeeling? Like, what do you do?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yeah. Fresh and engaging. Do I don't do as I
don't do that many anymore.Like, I think Mhmm. I think,
also, this is different, youknow, when you're running your
own ship, obviously, becauseyour artistic decisions are
yours to make and then reap thesuccesses or, you know, like,
mourn your humiliating failures.
(26:57):
All of that's on you. Right? SoI would say that the thing that
is a solo artist I do that isdifferent from the way that I've
ever worked in groups is likeMhmm. When I get to the and it's
a pain in the ass for some of myplayers sometimes. Fully we'll
note that at the top.
But, like, I'll get to the venueand, you know, check out the
opening act if we don't knowthem or whatever and just, like,
(27:18):
kinda get a sense of how the howthe room sounds, you know, clap
a bunch of times or just pop offstage while the beats run-in.
Because as you know, I mean, thesame beat played, right, in a
400 cap club in a cross cansound so insanely different
depending on the sound system.Like, truly insane. And some
(27:39):
rooms, particularly those thatweren't built for that kind of
either for live performance. Youknow, you're in a museum.
Like, you're doing some weirdlibrary thing.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
You're doing
Speaker 2 (27:45):
a theater gig. Okay. Well, there's no subs. So, like,
the sexy hard hitting momenthere might as well be ballet.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
It ain't happening. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
It's not it will not be present this evening. And
then there's some other, likeyou know, I played in a cave
once when I was opening for,thievery corporation. And the
cave is just as you imagine. Youknow, you clap once and you hear
it ring for 12. Yeah.
Because it's a fucking cave,man. And so if you if you're
playing big drug, they're justgonna go you're just gonna get
garbage. So I make set list alot of times after I get to the
(28:17):
venue so that every night isdesigned around whatever the
hell is going on. You know, abig election was just just swung
the wrong way or, you know, ifyou're in Philly, however, the
sports team did matters a fuckton. To try to, like, build an
evening that isn't trying toreach the highs or recreate the
successes of last night, butresponsive time to, hey.
(28:40):
This show's sold out. Don't thisshow is not.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Okay. I gotta win them, and I don't want them to
feel you know, sometimes you getthat thing where if a room isn't
as full as you want, like, theaudience is so concerned about
you that it's distracting. Theycan't have fun by themselves
because they're worried ifyou're salty. Right. So, yeah,
that to me helps each night feeldifferent because I I hate like,
I would I just like, Broadwayfolks, you know, how they're
(29:05):
doing the same thing everynight.
Granted, they polished it up.It's, you know, a fine gem in
their world, but I just doingthe same thing every night.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
I only
Speaker 2 (29:13):
got so many nights to be alive, and I want all of them
to be different.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah. I feel like you I I feel like in the process of
doing that too, you kinda createa world every night that's both
for you and for the people thatthat are there. Right? Like,
it's like a a more of a mixed,night that night, which I think
is awesome. Really, really cool.
I've got I've been lucky enoughto see you perform a bunch of
times, and I can't say that itwas the exact same ever anytime
(29:38):
I've seen you perform.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
So it
Speaker 1 (29:40):
was awesome. I can say that much, but, yeah. Wait.
For your what's your favoritecity? Yeah.
Put it up now. Put it up rightnow. Do it right now from
everybody. I'm kidding.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
I love I love New York. Yeah. I'm I'm recording
from New York. I live here athalftime. And
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Dude, like, I just love it in such an uncomplicated
childlike way that everybodywho's been here long and he's
like, wait till you but I'm justI'm not over it yet. I think New
York
Speaker 1 (30:09):
is Right.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
I do love it. I do love it. Does it love me quite
as hard? Probably not, butthat's part of the story.
Uh-huh.
Yeah. I, you know, I I kindastarted splitting my time, I
don't know, 6 or 7 years ago. II don't keep great records. But
part of the appeal for me was,like, the paint writing in a
(30:31):
page way. So, like, I think alot of them, like, super dope
designers, you know, live inBrooklyn.
And I was like, where didDorothy Parker live? You know? I
want I wanted that world. So,so, yeah, like, I live in, you
know, in a one bedroom inManhattan when I'm here. Nice.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Like you said In Manhattan even. Holy moly, man.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Excuse me.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
What'd you say?
Speaker 2 (30:53):
I said, oh, excuse me. Just drop
Speaker 1 (30:55):
your pants over here. Put your hands over here. Yeah.
Oh. Oh, boy.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Man. Manhattan. But like you said, with waking up
every day, yeah, even when it'seven in its shittiest to me.
Like, New York is still reallycharming. Like, I feel like it
doesn't there's not too manydays that go by before, again, I
find, like, Nelia.
Like, I'm just, you know, in myhead. Like, I really like it.
(31:22):
There's I have, like, a a fruitguy just like the guy in the
corner who sells fruit. Youknow? And Yeah.
And the I don't I don't totallyknow his name. I don't think he
knows my name, but we both knowthat our name
Speaker 1 (31:32):
is You know each other.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
And we do this dance every time, and I go, and he
does this little dance, and it'stime to date. And we just, like,
you know, fruit or no fruittransaction. It's a
choreographed exchange.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Amazing. You
Speaker 2 (31:45):
could live in Minneapolis for a 100 lifetimes
before you have a choreographeddance with your fruit vendor.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
It's never gonna happen. It's never gonna you
might no. No. It probably is.Well, maybe.
I don't know. But it's adifferent. I'm not and not to
shit on me okay. Not to shit onMinneapolis. I was just there
for a week.
I went to Duluth. I took my mamato Duluth for her birthday. It's
beautiful in Duluth. People arenice in Duluth. You know?
(32:13):
Not to shit on Minneapolis, but
Speaker 2 (32:15):
It's just a different city. Man. Are so It's just a
Speaker 1 (32:18):
different vibe. It's a completely different vibe. You
know? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
I feel like Minneapolis did such a did did
and does. Like, I think anunusually good job at like, when
you're a starting out artist,there are so many organic ways
to, like, what was your firstopen mic? You know what I mean?
There's just so many stages andso many places, like, you know,
(32:43):
from coffee shops to the, youknow, little tiny venues to oh,
okay. Here's the Loft literarycenter to here's, Cedar Cultural
Center who's gonna have, like,artists come through that might
not be able to, you know,totally provide a windfall for a
promoter Yep.
With a fucking report.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Exactly. Culturally. But they're gonna put the money
into it. Yep.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Exactly. I think Minneapolis is really good at
that. But I think at least asnear as I've discovered, like,
New York isn't like, do you needa hand? Like, let me lay this
nose. Use this as a step.
But I think that I think thathaving a really big dream can
come off as conceded in inMinneapolis in a way that
Speaker 1 (33:24):
This is true. New York.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Yeah. It can it can come off as conceded or come off
as, like, that's lofty. Youknow? Exactly. But but
Speaker 2 (33:32):
with one eyebrow up, like, that's lofty.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Yeah. Thank you. No. Not lofty in a good way. Lofty
in, like, that's not in anywherenear possible.
Right?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Who were you to think you could? That kind of thing a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
I even, like, I even, like, work you know, working in
music, like, at home where,like, the thing that I did was a
kind of a big deal. Right? And,like, would meet people who are
just weren't, and then I'll go,oh, well, what do you do? Oh, I
work in music. They'd be like,You know?
Like, that's crazy to them. It'snot a possible, you know, it's
(34:04):
just not realistic. You know?
Speaker 2 (34:05):
So Yeah. That's I don't know. Funny. God, that's
so funny now that you say itbecause I know exactly it's so
much better said. Because Ithink a lot of times, you know,
I'd meet somebody and what doyou do or whatever?
Yeah. Say it. You know? Andthen, oh, like, for weddings or
Yep. Yep.
You're Essentially, what you'resaying is that's an unattainable
dream that you already haveattained.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yep. Yep. To them, they're like, you haven't
attained shit probably.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
What are
Speaker 1 (34:30):
you doing here? Like, yeah. No. A 1000%. I mean, that
used to happen all the time.
And, like, I I'm like, oh, okay.And now even now I mean, even
now well, for other reasons nowwhen I'm, like, traveling,
people will be like, oh, what doyou do? And I'm like, well, I'm
I'm the founder of a start up,and they're like, yeah. Okay.
But that's for other reasons
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Like obviously. Like, good good luck. Like, nobody
makes it.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Anyways, so sorry we gotcompletely sidetracked. I wanna
let you get out of here. I wannarespect your time. I really,
really appreciate you coming onand chatting. I would like for
you to talk about really quicklywhat you have coming up.
I know you have a podcast rightnow.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
I used to have a podcast.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Oh, no. What happened?
Speaker 2 (35:19):
I had a podcast with with the BBC and APM that was
called, Deeply Human. And it'sreally good. So whatever. People
are looking for a, you know, alittle retro listening. I I
think they hold up pretty well.
It was on science y stuff.Awesome. Right now, I am gearing
up for the publication of, like,a collaborative book that I did
(35:40):
with, bartender slash like, Idon't know even right. He said
that mixologist can sorta comeoff like meh. But I can.
Person essentially who designs,like, beverage menus and Uh-huh.
You know, builds cocktails. Sohe's worked for, like, you know,
dozens of restaurants to, like,figure out what their best plan
is. Anyway, his name is MarcoZappia, and he's I just thought
(36:01):
I just think he's great. I,like, ran across some of his
work a few years ago and madethat note.
Like, I have no idea why wewould collaborate on anything at
any time. But I just thinkyou're absolutely your job, and
if I can make up an excuse towork with you, and then I found
them. So, my yeah. So we've gota cocktail book coming out, in
November called Bury the Lead, acocktail book.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Amazing. Bury the Lead, a cocktail book, I assume
will be available everywherewhere you can buy books.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Absolutely not. It'll be available from a bunch of
places and on the Internet.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Awesome. So cool. Definitely go get that. I will,
you know, the fact that Icompletely missed that you had a
podcast has kinda pissed me off.So I will be going back and
listening to every episode.
I'm also that that's just I haveproblems with this. I listen to
a lot of podcasts andsurprisingly a lot of science
based stuff. Really? I'm verymuch into. Yeah.
(37:00):
Yeah. 1000%. Very much into. Idon't know if you, you might
find her interesting. You shouldcheck her out.
Her name is Coppola in a pot.She's on TikTok, and she also
just recently wrote a book. Andso text me her name? Absolutely.
Absolutely will.
So, yeah, I'm I'm very much intothe cosmos, so, like, I'm all
(37:20):
about it. So I will definitelycheck it out. Listen. Thank you
so much for coming on. I reallyappreciate you taking the time,
to chop it up.
We have to set up time to talkmore, so I will be I will take
the, the reins to be able to dothat. But, yeah, I really
appreciate you coming on, and,let's look out for that book.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
This was so fun. This is the most fun I've had
guessing on a podcast in a longtime, and now I get to leave and
you have to edit, which is thebest of all possible.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Thanks for tuning in to the loadout. This episode was
produced by me with music by theincredible Mike and additional
editing and mixing also by Mike.If you enjoyed this
conversation, don't forget tosubscribe and rate the podcast.
Follow me at probably Ashanti onall platforms. Until next time,
keep buying those tickets.
Peace.
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