EXPERIENCE 220 | Excellence, Ethics, and Endurance - Triple Crown Leadership and more with Gregg Vanourek, Entrepreneur, Teacher, Author, and TEDx Speaker - The LoCo Experience

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
In this episode of The LocoExperience, I welcome,
accomplished author, speaker,and teacher Greg VanEck into the
studio.
We discussed his recent book,triple Crown Leadership, which
he co-wrote with his father.
The book uses the metaphor ofthe triple crown and horse
racing to describe the triplecrown of leadership, excellence,
ethics, and endurance.
We discussed the extensiveresearch and interviews involved

(00:22):
in developing their book andleadership model, which aims to
help leaders achieve exceptionalresults with integrity and
sustainability.
Greg shared his insights in hisdiverse professional journey,
including his experience withthink tanks and founding a
startup foundation focused oneducation reform, which
ultimately led him to move theirfamily to Sweden.
There he taught entrepreneurshipand leadership at the Royal

(00:42):
Institute of Technology,Sweden's, equivalent to MIT.
The conversation delves into thesignificance of understanding
oneself and discovering one'spassions and strengths,
especially for young adults.
Greg offers advice on trustingoneself, paying attention to
one's interest, and takingaction to experiment and learn.
He underscores the value ofbeing in community with others

(01:03):
to gain insights and support andnavigating life's transitions.
Greg also reflects on his familylife, including the challenges
and rewards of moving fromSweden back to the US with his
wife and daughters.
He highlights the importance offinding balance and joy in both
professional and personalendeavors.
The episode concludes with alighthearted discussion about
memorable life moments such asGreg's adventurous trip to the

(01:25):
Netherlands without a passportand the role of music in his
life.
Ile, our keynote speaker andworkshop leader at the local
member event this fall, aim tothrive, and I know you'll enjoy
getting to know my new friendGreg Vanek.

(02:15):
Welcome back to the LocoExperience.
I'm here today with Greg VanEckand Greg is an author, a
speaker, a.
A teacher.
Yes.
Many above.
Um, let's talk maybe about yourbook that you brought us.
Mm.
Today, triple Crown Leadership.
Great.
So it's good to be with you,Kurt.
Thank thanks for having me.
Of course.
So this book, triple CrownLeadership, uh, I wrote with my

(02:37):
father.
Yeah.
So it was really wonderfulhaving a father son
collaboration on a multi-yearproject.
We had done some teachingtogether.
Mm-hmm.
And then also a bunch ofresearch for this book.
So the book uses the metaphor ofthe Triple Crown.
Of course, we just had theKentucky Derby right.
And, uh, so we use that as ametaphor for three things to aim

(02:58):
for in leadership.
So the first one is, what kindof leadership does it take to be
excellent to have an excellentorganization?
So that's the derby.
Then you gotta go to thePreakness, right?
Okay.
And so the second leg isethical.
It's not just getting greatresults, but doing it with
integrity.
Yeah.
So doing the right thing, evenwhen it's costly or hard.

(03:19):
So the excellent is more aboutthe actual results.
It's about the results, yeah.
It's the growth that.
The growth in margins andwhatever market share we
actually say it's about exachieving exceptional results
and positive impacts, right?
So excellent and then ethical.
And then if you win thePreakness, you gotta go up to
the Belmont Stakes for the testof the champion, right?
And then if you win all three,you win the triple crown, which

(03:42):
is the most elusive championshipin all of sports.
Uh, only about a dozen have wonit since 1875.
Okay?
And the third leg in leadershipis enduring.
So it's, uh, standing the testof time and operating
sustainably.
So can you be excellent and, andethical, not just this year or
this quarter, but over time?

(04:05):
And, uh, so it's excellent,ethical, enduring.
It's a very high standard.
It's exceedingly rare.
And for the book we drew on ourown experience.
Yeah.
So we had a very differentexperience, but we also did a
bunch of research on the world'smost admired companies, world's
most ethical, sustainable, uh,innovative.
And then we interviewed leadersin 61 organizations in 11

(04:28):
countries.
Oh, wow.
From the Mayo Clinic to Google,Cisco, Spotify, China, net
Cloud, it was a range of largeenterprises, global.
Mm-hmm.
Um, startups, socialenterprises, non-profits,
government, military education,you know, turnarounds included.
Mm-hmm.
And did you feel like these werecompanies that represented

(04:48):
those?
Triple crowns, or at least someof those factors.
So th that wasn't actually thepoint of the research.
Okay.
And so, you know, we had lookedat the Jim Collins work.
Yeah, yeah.
I was thinking about Good ToGreat.
Exactly.
Good to Great.
It's a great book.
Incredible research team.
He called'em the Chimps upthere, all the people who did
all the incredible research, butwe wanted it to be about not a
list of great organizations.

(05:11):
We wanted it to be focused onthe practices that can help you
be excellent, ethical, enduring.
Right?
Yeah.
And I think one of the problemswith the list approach is things
change.
And so if you look at like, theGood to Great list, right?
Um, you know, a bunch of likeWalgreens celebrated really
high, you know, circuit City,you know, and, you know, and
it's, you know, yep.
And, and so there's a littledanger about focusing too much

(05:34):
on the institutions, theorganizations.
And so we focused on what, whatare the advanced leadership
practices that help you beexcellent, ethical, and
enduring?
And for that you can draw on alot of organizations, including
turnarounds, et cetera.
But the first point is be clear.
What are you aiming for?
You know, Covey said, begin withthe end in mind.
Sure.
Yeah.

(05:54):
Right.
And so what is your leadershipquest?
Are you clear on that?
And are you aiming high enough?
And I think a lot of people thatget right into the operations
and the management, et cetera,without really, and this course
points to one of the practicesis about shared purpose, values,
and vision.
Mm-hmm.
But what is your leadershipquest?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And defining that for your teamis Yeah.

(06:16):
Part of even being excellent.
Excellent.
At what exactly.
Yeah.
I was just thinking about howthat triple crowd, I wonder how
many horses won the first twoand then didn't.
Uh, win The third is, is thatsomething you happen to research
when find your way?
I don't know.
Um, I, I do notice that it tendsto dwindle, you know, so the
derby is bigger, and then by thetime you get to the Belmont, a

(06:38):
lot of people are out becausethey don't, they're not in
contention anymore.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but, and I think the raceshave different, but you start
with, you know, around like 18of the world's best.
Yeah.
And then, and then sometimesyou'll have a, a much smaller
group, but one of the stories,so we had fun with this
metaphor.
So we started with the three,you know, excellent, ethical,
enduring, and we said we need akind of a metaphor, something

(07:01):
fun.
And so we thought HatrickTroika.
Right.
And a colleague of ours said,triple Crown.
Right.
And like instantly we said,boom, that's, it's gotta be that
right.
And, uh, so we had fun, notonly, um, doing the research on
businesses, social ventures,governments, you know,
education, military, but also weinterviewed some people in horse
racing, you know?

(07:21):
Hmm.
And we interviewed, uh, thejockey who ran Ariat.
Oh, wow.
Which is one of the featuresstories.
So 1973 Secretary of Big Red RonTurcott.
And we said, Ron, what did itfeel like to be on top of Big
Red?
Okay.
When?
And, and then, and so, I don'tknow if you know the story, but
a little bit.
It was incredible.
So won the Derby by a couplelengths.

(07:43):
Won the Preakness by a couplelengths, and that's the length
of a horse.
Sure.
So typically you win by a half alength or a head or a couple
lengths.
And so it was a really bigrivalry between Sham and
Secretariat that year.
Okay.
But by the time the BelmontStakes came around, Ron Turcott
said, I can go out fast with theleaders.
Right from the start whereSecretariat had never done that

(08:06):
before.
Secretariat always liked to gofrom the back.
Mm-hmm.
To avoid being in the Scrum andgetting bumped.
Yeah.
Yeah.
'cause he had been bumped hardin his first race.
Okay.
So Secretariat goes right outwith Sham at the very beginning.
Now the Belmont Stakes is thelongest dirt track and
thoroughbred horse racing.
That's why I thought there weredifferent lengths.
Yeah.
So you gotta be much more paced.
You gotta be more strategic and,and patient.

(08:27):
And so people said this is adisaster.
They're going out way too fast.
Right.
They're gonna blow the chancefor the Triple crown.
But Secretariat and Sham justtook a big lead on the, they
were up two lengths, up, fivelengths on the group, seven
lengths.
And it was like a match race inthe back stretch, you know, they
were just way ahead then 10lengths and then sec, and then
Sham starts to fade.

(08:48):
Its secretary just keeps goingand opened up and eventually the
announcer called it 25 lengthsahead of Sham.
Ahead of No sham faded the restof the group.
Oh.
Caught past sham and passed.
Sham.
Sham.
It was just way too fast forSham, right?
Yeah.
Yep.
And so the announcer's up in thebooth Now I've been up in one of
those booths and it's hilariousjust being with I away they go.

(09:10):
We got on the rail green andeverything, and of course
they're drinking and everythingoff you.
And so, but he's just eyeballingit from, you know, there's
180,000 people you know, therein the, in the field and, and
live.
They went back and measured, itwasn't 25, it was 31 lengths.
Oh dang.
He won by 80 meters.
He blew away the track record.
Nobody's come close since.

(09:31):
And so really it was just thisincredible, one of the most
incredible athletic performancesacross sports.
You so go watch, you know, 1973,I'm on stake.
YouTube watch it.
You'll get goosebumps.
I tell you, there was a, uh, wasit, there was a horse racing
movie out just a few years ago.
That was the story of.
Something.
It was not just a few years ago.
It was probably 20 years ago.

(09:51):
Was it that?
Well, they've done Sea Biscuits.
Sea Biscuit is a great movie.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's what I'm thinking about.
Yeah.
And then they've got aSecretariat film as well.
Okay.
And so we had fun and you know,we, we talked about Man of War
and some of the other stories,uh, in the book of horse racing.
Um, but, you know, and it'sreally, it's not just the, the
horse is this incredible animal,but it's the, it's the jockey.

(10:12):
Ron Turcot knew.
That Secretariat had it in, hadthe juice, right?
Yeah.
But it's the owner, the, the,the stable was, was in crisis.
And because the, the, the owner,uh, I think passed away.
And so the daughter who was notin the industry took over Meadow
Farms and did a turnaround andbrought in the right people.
Oh, did.
And everything.
And, and so it was thisincredible story of a team

(10:34):
effort.
You know, you need theveterinarian Yeah.
Outsider coming in it soundslike.
Yeah.
And at the end of, if you, ifyou watch the video, as soon as
uh, secretariat wins, the camerajust pauses there as he crosses
the finish line.
One, 1002, one, and then it pansback to find the other horses
way back.
Right.
And then the other horses.
And then a couple seconds laterthey go up to the stands and you

(10:56):
see Penny Chenery the owner whodid the turnaround, and she's
just celebrating and it's justthis incredible moment.
That's really cool.
Yeah.
Leadership.
What was it like writing a book?
Uh, does your dad live herelocally as well?
So you would get togetheractually in person and push out.
Yeah.
Ideas and outlines?
Or did you Yeah.
You're chapter two.
I'm chapter three, so yeah, mymom and dad are high school

(11:16):
sweet sweethearts who live in,uh, Genesee in Jefferson County.
Okay.
Right up the hill a bit.
And, uh, yeah.
And, um, so part of it we wrotetogether and were able to kind
of work, but, but then for partof it, I took the book to Sweden
when, uh, my wife and I movedwith our young daughters to
Sweden.
We lived there for 10 years.
Yeah.
So part of it was remote aswell.

(11:37):
Oh, I see.
We were kind of, so maybe, Idon't know, half half, you know,
here and half there.
Before remote work was sexy.
Yeah, exactly.
Or normal.
Yeah.
But my dad and I had done someteaching together.
Okay.
Before, and some speaking, butwriting a book together is very
intense.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it can, you know, you reallystart to care about, you know,
what you say or the, it can geta little, you know, your ego's

(11:58):
involved, all these red penedits coming back and forth.
But my dad was incredible.
You know, he was a multi-timeCEO and he's obviously my dad.
But he said, Greg, if we'regonna write a book together.
We are equals.
Hmm.
We are absolutely co-equal.
Nobody's got, uh, well, he, hegot first billing.
Is it alphabetical?
It's alphabetical.
No, I gave him, but now he isretired, so he says, put your

(12:18):
name first on stuff.
So, uh, fair enough.
But it was incredible, you know,doing a project like that with
my dad.
Yeah.
He's, he's a remarkable dad andjust human being and just having
something like this, it's one ofthe best experiences of both of
our lives.
Was he a CEO even when you werea little guy?
Or did he kind of work his wayup and then did the, the CEO
stuff?
Yeah, so, uh, so growing up, mybrother, my older brother and I,

(12:40):
we followed, you know, ourfamily followed his business
career around.
And so I remember him being kindof a group VP at Avery Label,
and then he became the presidentof Monarch Marking in Dayton,
Ohio.
Okay.
After, uh, Avery was inCalifornia and that was a
subsidiary, Pitney Bowes.
And then he got.
Brought up to the mothership inConnecticut to be a group VP for

(13:02):
Pitney Bowes, which is a muchlarger enterprise.
Monarch was incredible.
And then he, and then he did aturnaround in Dallas, Texas with
a partner.
They took over a company, didkind of a financial and ethical
turnaround.
Hmm.
And then he did anotherturnaround of a billion dollar
company called Sensor MAD inFlorida, um, that was doing, so
yeah, you saw that kind of a,but he was really pretty big

(13:25):
corporate, right?
Yeah, it was.
These were subsidiaries oflarger organizations and things
Yeah.
Or the mothership.
Yeah.
And, and, uh, but so he hadinitially done some private
equity, some entrepreneurialstuff, and he served in the Army
briefly, but then he rapidly gotinto corporate.
Yeah, yeah.
He basically, he wasdisillusioned with what the way
private equity, what it wasdoing with these, these
companies.
The way it was kind of justbrutal.

(13:46):
Well, it's much nicer now.
Yeah.
Right.
So much better.
They've gotten so much better atscrewing people most of the
time.
Yeah.
But this, but this comes back tothe quest.
And so like for him, he saidearly on in his career, he is
like, am I gonna spend my wholecareer being so brutal to
people?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And he said, isn't there abetter way?
To operate in business and isthere a better way to lead?

(14:09):
And he, he basically went on alifelong personal quest,
searching for a better way tolead.
And that brought him to servantleadership initially with Robert
Greenleaf.
Mm-hmm.
And this whole other model.
And then we developed our ownleadership model and, you know,
he was trying out differentthings to his career.
Really cool.
Yeah.
Um, you're a fairly prolificauthor.
Is this, this was your second orthird?

(14:30):
This is the third book.
Okay.
And you've got another oneyou're, you're working on now, a
new one in it's written, or isit written now and it's got
editing to do?
Or is it It's, uh, it's got adraft.
Okay.
But I've got a lot of work to dobecause I've subsequently gone
out and I've interviewed, Ithink 43 people in 20 plus
countries now.
Oh, wow.
And kind of taking that data setand integrating it, and so that
book is on the common traps ofliving.

(14:52):
Hmm.
And so it's more of a personaldevelopment or leading
self-focused book.
Okay.
And so what are the things thatinhibit our happiness, our
quality of life, and ourfulfillments?
Hmm.
How do you choose which 41people you should interview for
a book like that?
Yeah.
So, um, so for this one, um,this.

(15:14):
Interview set was quitedifferent from the other, so all
the other books includedinterviews.
Okay.
And some included some surveysas well.
Okay.
In those cases, it was much moreof people were honored to be
asked because we're writing abook on excellent leadership and
you know, we want to hear yourstory.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, a previous book was on Bethe Entrepreneur of Your Life.

(15:36):
It's called Life EntrepreneursLive with Purpose and Passion
and so and so we found people.
This new book is much harderbecause it's about the traps of
living.
Yeah.
And we're talking about thingsthat are very deep and
vulnerable in some cases.
And so for the new book, it's,it's, uh, anonymous.
I decided that Oh, unlesssomebody insists that they be
named, yeah.

(15:56):
I'm gonna make it anonymous sothat people can just know that
they can speak totally freefreely and they won't have to
worry about it.
You know, getting back thatsomebody's gonna read about
their, you know, their toughstory.
So with that, you know, I have,uh, I lived in Europe for 10
years and did a lot of teachingand so I was able to go out into
my network.
Some people came to me and kindof offered, but often I would go

(16:17):
out and, and um, and, and, um,ask people who I thought would
be thoughtful and willing totalk about the deeper stuff.
Yeah.
Um, and, you know, people knowpeople et cetera.
And are you looking for like.
People that have becomesuccessful but navigated some of
these traps so they have some ofthat experience.
Or is it people that have beentrapped by something already,

(16:40):
like as it's an interesting daypool to choose?
That's part of my, my curiosity.
It's, yeah, it is.
And I mean, the, the book isn't,it's not an academic research
book where I'm trying to kind ofjust draw it off the interviews.
'cause I'm also drawing it offof, I've got an online tool
where I've had, uh, more than athousand people around the world
fill out my Traps test.
Okay.

(17:00):
And then I've done a bunch ofresearch of books and academic
articles and journals, etcetera, on gotcha's phenomenon.
But, um, but I think, uh, theother thing that I wanted was, I
wanted a geographic diversity.
Hmm.
You know, I'm really looking athuman experience.
Mm-hmm.
And I didn't want it to belocalized to Yeah.
To, um, north America or theUnited States.
Yeah.

(17:21):
Although it's, it's oversampledwith, you know, very.
Privileged people.
If you look at the world today,I mean, we're incredibly
privileged.
Right, right.
And so, you know, it's, it's notmeant to be representative of
the entire global.
Do you, uh, do you have anyteasers?
Are there like a, a top threemost common traps of living that
you've, uh, identified?
Yeah, so one of the bigsurprises so far is how many of

(17:43):
the traps are in our heads andthey're kind of self-imposed,
self-inflicted wounds.
And so, you know, some of thebig ones are negative self-talk.
Sure.
Self-doubt and the limitingbeliefs that are related to
that.
And then a kind of a bucket ofthings around overthinking.

(18:05):
Hmm.
So that would include worryingabout the future Yep.
And ruminating on things toomuch where you can't stop
thinking about something thathappened or something you've
said.
And then also just monkey mind.
Right.
Where your mind is just bouncingaround and you just can't have
presence and focused love the,the letting the past be the
past, I think I am do betterwith.

(18:25):
It's a tricky one.
Yeah.
But staying focused on one thingwhen that's the most important
thing is isn't quite as easy forme.
Yeah.
Well a lot of people, you're notalone.
So that's one of the biglearnings is the psychological
piece.
And then there's some other onesthat are pretty common, like
drifting through your life,settling for just, okay.
The term that's been used onTwitter a lot lately is the NPC,

(18:46):
the non-player characters.
Are you familiar with that?
A little bit, but say more aboutthat.
Well, it's kind of that, thatdrifting through your life.
Mm-hmm.
You know, you're not actually.
Really making any decisions.
You're just on the boat, you'reon the hook to the side
character.
Yeah.
You're not really engaging.
You're not really impactinganybody's life.
Yeah.
To significant positive ornegative Yeah.

(19:07):
Your organization Yeah.
Gets just enough out of you totolerate you.
Yeah.
I love that.
NPCI should probably mentionthat in the drifting chapters
perhaps.
Yeah.
And, and then, you know,conforming to what other people
want.
Mm-hmm.
Or expect.
Mm-hmm.
Comparing yourself to othersmm-hmm.
Is another big one.
So, and what I've done with thisnew book I'm working on is there
was one page in my second book,which is Life Entrepreneurs, and

(19:29):
that's the book about, you know,being the entrepreneur of your
life and living with purpose andpassion.
Yeah.
And so we talk about all thesethings that you should do to
integrate your life and work andlive boldly and, and, uh, and,
but there was one page on thepitfalls that get you into
trouble.
Okay.
And so what I've done is kind ofa zoom in pivot Yeah.
And turning that one page inthat life entrepreneur's book

(19:51):
into my next book.
Cool.
So, yeah, is that, uh, like I, Iwant to, I've, I've kind of
wanted to have a, do a book.
At times, you know, I've got alot of different ideas and I,
but it's a chore.
Yeah, right.
Like how many, how, how do yougo about writing?
Do you, do you, are you likeHemingway, where you just write
500 words every day and, uh, youknow, then kind of don't worry

(20:15):
about it until later.
Yeah.
So, uh, I, I write every day.
Okay.
But I also define writingbroadly because to me it's the
writing process.
Mm-hmm.
And so, you know, so I amliterally writing new stuff
every day, but I'm also readinga lot, researching,
architecting, outlining, andthen of course editing and

(20:36):
re-architecting.
And so all of that would be, youknow, yeah.
And so I literally have acalendar in my home office where
I'm kind of checking off, did Ido my writing today?
Yeah.
Um, and then, yeah.
So, and then, and then what?
Like how is a book a thousandhours.
Yeah, I, I haven't counted thehours for, for me, typically a
book is like a, you know, twoand a half to three year, uh,

(20:57):
process.
Okay.
Uh, but I really, in an hour ortwo a day, probably, uh, well,
probably more than thatactually.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, but I.
You know, so my, my dad, my dadand I are very different.
And my dad, you know, you know,did turnarounds and he had this
very yeah, get after it.
Intense, get after finish theproject.
That was part of what made himgreat at doing what, you know,

(21:18):
those turnarounds and stuff.
Yeah, yeah.
So when I, when I asked him towrite a book, he's like, great,
you know, like six months, youknow, let go, go, go.
Right.
And I, and I said, dad, if we'regonna write a book, you know,
given your career,'cause he hadan incredible career.
Um, and given your knowledge andlike, I just really wanna, you
know, really do this.
Right.
So I, I view it more as I, I, Itry not to be timeline driven

(21:40):
with my books.
Obviously, once you have apublisher than you get on the,
the, you know, the, the assemblyline.
Right?
Right.
But, uh, you know, I really saythis book is going to need what
it takes Yeah.
To be the book.
It needs to be it be dumb whenit's done, and I'm committed to
that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then you just have to work,work around it and make it, make
it happen.
All right.
Well, maybe when I get quite notquite so fascinated with

(22:02):
podcasting, I'll dedicate alittle time to starting that
book.
Let's talk.
I love it.
I love it.
Um, so how do you, as aside frombook writing, you, you mentioned
that you're a teacher and aspeaker.
What, what else are you doing?
Yeah.
Right now I know we're, we'retalking about having you out,
uh, in the fall for, uh, uh.
Aim to thrive event.
A thinker fest type of, yeah.
I'm really looking forward toengaging with your community.

(22:24):
Yeah.
So I have a portfolio of workthat includes writing, which is
the books.
And then, uh, I'm publishing adetailed blog every week.
Okay.
You know, it's kind of the much,more than more like an article,
I guess I'm not on your mailinglist yet.
I gotta get you on there.
Apparently, Kurt, what do you,that goes automatically just bam
or something?
Maybe I'm just filtering youout.
Yeah, so I've got writing,teaching, speaking, and

(22:47):
coaching.
Okay.
And, and so I, I think I'vecalled myself a pracademic,
right?
Because I'm a practitioner.
I've had a career in a thinktank in a startup.
Education Reform Foundation andin an online education startup
that became a scale up marketleader.
Okay.
But I've also done a lot ofresearch and teaching,
including, uh, 10 years inSweden teaching at the Royal

(23:10):
Institute of TechnologyEntrepreneurship and teaching
executive MBA leadership atStockholm Business School.
Some teaching at University ofDenver here in Colorado as well.
Yeah.
And a bunch of guest teaching.
And then I have online coursesthat I offer as well, that are
part of my teaching.
Oh, really?
Portfolio.
Yeah.
So, so that's, so I, I enjoyhaving this portfolio, you know?

(23:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I've been in, uh, educationrelated things my entire career.
Yeah.
But in very different, you know,think Tank startup tech.
Yeah.
Directly teaching, et cetera.
Tell me about Think tank.
Yeah.
Like, I mean, we are local,think tank here.
Right?
Right.
And so, uh, and it's a bit of aplay on words.
You know, we're a local thinktank.

(23:50):
We don't, we're not, we're justas smart as you guys in
Washington DC or whatever.
Yeah.
Uh, but what's, what's a realthing I would say, don't assume
that, uh, but I would say it'sfunny because, you know, out of,
uh, college I studied politics,philosophy, economics.
Okay.
Undergraduate.
And then I did a one yearmaster's at the London School of
Economics and Political Science.

(24:11):
Okay.
And, and then I said, you know,I went home to Texas where we
had just moved and I did some,you know, odd jobs for a while.
I said, I want to go work for athink tank.
Hmm.
And my parents said, son.
We love you and you know, webelieve in you who heck could
hire you, but like you can'twork at a think tank.
You gotta have like five PhDsand like there's, you know, you
can't just Right, right.

(24:31):
You gotta already have yourreputation and then you can go
work there.
Said, yeah.
I said I want to go work for athink tank.
And of course the think tankshave entry level jobs too.
So I, I ended up like applyingto a bunch and I got, yeah.
I was very fortunate to gethired by as a research assistant
Okay.
Initially at a DC think tank.
Yep.
That was just a public policythink tank focusing on, you

(24:52):
know, most of the major policyissues.
And I was on the educationreform team.
Okay.
And on the civil society team,like looking for what are some
innovative community solutionsYep.
To big problems like home,homelessness, addiction,
poverty.
Sure.
Truancy that the, the governmentis not doing, but people in
nonprofits or civic orcombinations, partnerships.

(25:15):
Yeah.
And we, and we got a grant to goaround the country and, and
interesting study ones and writeabout it.
So I was on education and civilsociety.
But my friends would always askme like, Greg, you're working
for a think tank.
Like, what do you, what do youdo?
Do you just like literally sitin your office and just think
and kind of cogitate and no,you're researching, you're
interviewing people, you'redoing field visits, you're doing

(25:35):
surveys, you're, you know,you're pub.
And then we ended up, uh,publishing books and research
reports.
And then out of the think tankwe had the opportunity to launch
a startup foundation too.
Oh.
So there was a, um, small.
The education reform thing.
Education reform.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Can you mention the think tankor is that secret?
Yeah.
No, not at all.
It's, it's called the HudsonInstitute.
Okay.

(25:55):
And they are kind of, uh, centerrights.
Okay.
But, but their kind of niche wasbeing contrarian.
Okay.
And so Herman Kahan was thefounder and he was a game
theorist on thermonuclear warOh.
Ing back in kind of the fiftiesand sixties.
And so he said, let's, let's goout and kind of find things that
go against the conventionalwisdom.

(26:17):
Yeah.
Kind of be, that was their kindof niche.
And they were based in, youknow, New York originally, then
Indianapolis, and then we, I wasin the DC Okay.
Kind of arm.
Well, it's funny not tointerrupt, but my, uh, my blog,
which I don't know if I've sentyou, do I send you my
newsletters as well?
I do, yes.
Yeah.
So my blog is called The LocoPerspective.
Yeah.
And it's kind of like the crazyperspective a little bit.

(26:38):
Yeah.
Or the underdevelopedperspective.
Yeah.
And sometimes I just write aboutother things or whatever, but
yeah, definitely very much so.
I've tried to.
Pick up the untouchable topicsthat nobody's talking about, but
somebody should.
Yeah.
Yeah.
A little bit.
And we like to focus not so muchon left or right, right.
But kinda what's missing fromthe equation.
Right.
Who's not talking about thisthat's important?

(26:58):
Not doing it right, or what'snot working and why.
I try to get a little bit, sosorry to interrupt again, but
the, like, when I think abouteducation and civil society,
like things haven't been goingin a good direction for the last
20 years, so I guess your HudsonInstitute, they should have done
more of the things that you saidthat they should do.
Or what's, what are we doingwrong?

(27:18):
Yeah.
Um, what have we done wrong?
Yeah.
It feels like an overreliance ontesting, you know, teaching to
the tests for like high schoolsand things like that has been a
Yeah.
A challenge.
Yeah.
Um.
Yeah, you're right.
I mean, we have enormouseducation challenges and I think
we're, you know, for a countrythis wealthy and this
successful, we are doing a, apoor job compared to what we

(27:41):
should be doing.
Yeah.
In K to 12 education, I wouldsay in higher education
actually, where the envy of theworld, there's a lot of problems
there, including the cost andall sorts of stuff.
Right.
But still, I mean, in terms ofthe amount of options and some
of the quality of the researchand yeah.
Et cetera, it, it's much betteroff.
You know, I think that, um, oneof the things is.

(28:04):
You know, we've got this schoolsystem where we've really
standardized so much of it, it'sa kind of a factory model.
Mm-hmm.
You know, in including we're,and kids are all different.
And kids are all different.
Yeah.
And, and so, and that, we'llcome back to that later if we
want to talk about the onlineeducation startup.
We're trying to solve thatissue.
Okay.

(28:24):
But I think this kind ofassembly line where you, for
efficiency reasons and kind ofmanagement and bureaucracy,
we're gonna make things with theschool district.
And the school district's gonnahave a standard curriculum and
it's gonna have standardpolicies and the schools are
gonna do this.
And if you're a gifted andtalented kid, then you can take
these specific classes, butYeah.
Yeah.
And then we're also, we'restill, we're still on the
agrarian calendar in ourschools.

(28:45):
Yeah.
You think about it.
Yeah.
And so, uh, and then in termsof, you know, not using
technology very well.
Uh, and not really reachingstudents and, you know, finding
a way in, in the way we trainteachers and whatnot.
Teacher pay, we, you know,compare, you know, Finland, if
you're a teacher in Finland,they pay them.

(29:06):
You know, Kurt, you mentionedthe other day.
Yeah.
You know, you've got an exchangestudent from Finland have two
more days.
Yeah, yeah.
Then they've got, they're famousfor, it's very prestigious and
they pay them real money andover here it's, you know, almost
hard to make a living wage for alot of teachers.
Yeah.
At least entry level.
Yeah, exactly.
Um, so, um, so real issues.
Well, and like the really goodteachers, it's really hard to

(29:28):
separate them from the mediocreteachers.
It seems like they just kind ofYeah.
You know, you, you get paid morefor being there longer, but
there is very little meritrelated to it, except for how
much Yeah.
The principal likes you.
That's right.
Yeah.
And, and the career path isbizarre.
It's, you know, if you're areally good teacher, they wanna
pull you into administration.
Right.
And for some people they wannado that, and it's a big raise

(29:50):
and response.
Sure.
But for a lot of people's, no,I, I, I, I want to teach.
Right?
And I can be a master teaching.
And, and so it's this very oddsystem.
And so within the think tank.
The foundation startup that cameout of it.
We ended up looking a lot atGooder school choice.
Mm-hmm.
As one mechanism to kind ofdisrupt and bring some
innovation and experimentationin there.

(30:13):
And so we got a big grant fromthe Pew Charitable Trust to
study charter schools, and itwas the largest study of public
charter schools at the time.
Oh wow.
And so we went around and wesurveyed thousands of students,
teachers, parents of charterschools, and we went around and
we did a hundred site visitsaround the country and we
interviewed the principals andteachers and the founders of
charter schools.

(30:34):
And we did the largest study ofcharter schools at the time.
And, and that was my first bookthat I co-authored is Charter
Schools in Action RenewingPublic Education.
Oh, interesting.
Uh, that came out in the year2000.
So that was probably asignificant mover of that, um,
industry, if not like a big one.
You know, I sure it's this andthat, but charter schools have

(30:54):
what probably.
Three times, four times as manystudents as they had 20 years
ago.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If not way more than that.
They've grown.
Yeah.
Grown tremendously.
And back then it was a littlebit more of an unknown.
Right.
More of the wild west.
And so there wasn't a lot ofvisibility.
And so we did this big nationalstudy.
Hmm.
And we're able to look at, um,things like student outcomes and

(31:16):
governance and teacher qualityand, and finances and the
buildings.
Sure.
And, you know, shed some earlylight on it, including some of
the issues that, you know,they're still struggling with.
How do you handle all that data?
Like, how do you get your armsaround it if you're, if you're
serving a thousand charterschools and 10,000 people that
work at charter schools?

(31:37):
Yeah.
Well, you know, we had a team,there were four of us initially
on the study, and then three ofus co-authored the book.
We got some help from someresearchers at another think
tank to kind of, uh, combthrough some of the early data
Yeah.
And using technology as well.
Mm-hmm.
But it was, it was a big, it wasa massive, massive, mostly it

(31:58):
was just a lot of work.
It was a lot of work and, and itwas basically a bunch of
individual reports over yearsand then the book.
So we kind of gradually, itwasn't kind of like a year and
we gotta get the book out.
Oh, interesting.
Yeah.
We were able to kind of followthis over multi-year, can see a
trend there.
Yeah.
Project.
Yeah.
So it's fascinating.
But out of the think tank,there's this opportunity that
someone passed away in a smallfoundation in Dayton, Ohio.

(32:19):
Okay.
Which, which coincidentally, Iwent to junior high school near
there.
Okay.
And so I, I was in DC but I hadthis kinda random connection.
And, and so all of a sudden$40million of assets transferred
into this foundation.
Oh.
And they basically said, we wantto do it towards K to 12
education.
And other than that, and then myboss at the think tank Yeah.

(32:43):
Um, you know, nominated you forthat.
Basically said, Hey Greg, do youwant to help me build this
foundation from scratch?
Oh, wow.
So it was a startup foundation.
Yeah.
So we had a couple million, wellwe had 40 million though.
Yeah.
So that was nice.
Yeah.
So an annual budget of a couplemillion dollars.
Yep, yep, yep.
And so we had to staff it up andwhat are we gonna do?
Yeah.
Write the budget, build awebsite, hire people, you know,

(33:06):
and, and build it up.
And, and so we said, let's doone half think tank, one half
action tank.
So we can actually take some ofthe stuff we've been
researching.
Yeah.
And we could implement some ofthe stuff.
Study.
Yeah.
That's a little bit like the,uh.
Kind of commercialization oftechnology that universities are
increasingly focused on whenthey come up with some cool
stuff, like why not make somemoney on it?
Yeah, exactly.

(33:27):
Really interesting.
Yeah.
So, um, and then you do coachingas well.
Your clients, are they the CEOsof organizations or director
levels and things like that?
Depends.
Yeah, no, actually, so, so in mywork, I, I cross personal
development and leadership.
And so for my, for my coaching,I like to focus on people in

(33:49):
transitions in their life.
Okay.
And I, so I do, I do what'scalled integrated coaching.
Okay.
And, and so I like to connect.
So a lot of people come, come tome and they'll say, Hey, I'm
thinking about changing jobs andI need some help or whatnot.
And I say, okay, well there'speople out there who do that,
but if you're gonna work withme, we're gonna back up and
we're gonna get to know you as ahuman being and your values and

(34:11):
your strengths and your passionsand where you come from and
whatnot.
And we're gonna think about, youknow, what you've done and what
you liked, and what went well,and what didn't go well, and
whatnot.
And we're gonna put that.
Deep dive perspective and thenwe're gonna kind of use some of
the principles of designthinking and kinda lean startup
innovation methods.
Yeah.
To play around with somepossible futures.
So connect the personal and theprofessional basically.

(34:34):
That sounds a little bit likethat life entrepreneur book that
you were talking about.
Yeah, very much.
Um, kind of designing.
The life that you want and, anddoing it like a business plan.
Yeah.
You know, here's my personalbusiness plan.
Yeah.
Or my personal plan.
Yeah, exactly.
And, and, and so that book verymuch followed kind of, almost
like a, the flow of it wasalmost like a strategic plan of

(34:55):
your life.
Mm-hmm.
Although in retrospect, I'vecome to, you know, I've, I've
been involved in a scale up techcompany and, you know, I've,
I've learned a lot aboutbusiness modeling and I taught
business modeling, uh, inSweden.
And so I really come to think ofit more of kind of like, I, I
like the more like the businessmodel canvas and the lean

(35:16):
canvas.
Yeah.
Now, now that it's much moreknown as a metaphor as opposed
to a business plan.
Right.
Because I agree with SteveBlank.
He said that his business plansfor when there's enough
uncertainty and complexity, theycan kinda lock you in.
Yeah.
Prematurely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you want that flexibility ofa tool, like a one page canvas.
Yeah, yeah.
A loose tool.
Yeah.
Update it every month or everythree months if you want to as

(35:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's.
New doors might open.
Yeah.
And then you're in the buildmeasure, learn feedback loop.
You're experimenting and thenyou're learning what's working,
what's not.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you revise.
Yeah, I dig it.
Yeah.
Um, how about the civil societypart?
Yeah.
Like we're an interesting, youknow, you mentioned the center
Right Think tank and we're inMAGA country now for the second
time, which is, you know, it'skind of funny when you think

(36:01):
back to like how much disdainTrump had from Republican party
leadership when he came into thefield in 2015 or whatever.
Yeah.
And, uh, I wrote one of my blogsthat Bill Clinton kind of talked
him into it'cause he thought hewould be a bold in the China
shop kind of deal.
And uh, and then, you know, hekind of beat him.
Mm-hmm.
And then the Democratic Partykind of got so.

(36:25):
Crazy, uh, trying to beat him,that they kind of torn
themselves apart almost, itfeels like.
Yeah.
Well there's disdain across.
Yeah.
Both.
So much disdain, almostdisgusted.
Yeah, there is, yeah.
And, and to me, you know, Igotta say, just as an American
who's also lived abroad, I'mreally concerned about that,

(36:45):
that kind of the social fabricand the, the yeah.
The breakdown in trust and, andI think for me, you know,
personally, um, living.
Abroad for 10 years, includingthe time when Trump, you know,
came to power initially firstand whatnot time.
Yeah, yeah.
And, and looking back at, at mycountry and seeing and, and
actually, so, so we lived inSweden.

(37:05):
My wife is Swedish.
Okay.
And our daughters were born herein Colorado.
And they were three in one whenwe moved over there.
Okay.
And then we were there for 10years and then we came back.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Five, six years ago.
Oh, that's a neat time for themto be able to experience.
Yeah.
It was really wonderful.
All sorts of experiences withthe family there and a farm and
the countryside and very, veryhealthy.
But Sweden, I would saygenerally is a very high trust

(37:25):
society.
Yeah.
Where now, of course it's muchsmaller and you got 10, 11
million people.
Yeah.
So it's much, you know, it'slike one and a half states on
average.
Right.
In the United States.
Well, like Finland and Coloradoare about the same.
Yeah, almost the same size andabout the same population,
exactly 5 million or so inSweden spice.
So it's much more manageable inthat sense versus what, 333
million here, this kind ofthing.

(37:45):
And, and also it, it's, well,he, hell, in Sweden, if you've
got blonde hair, blue eyes raiseyour hand.
And like 80% of people are like,it's more homogenous that way.
But they've, they've had bigwave of refugees True.
That they've taken in.
Yeah.
So Sweden and Germany were thebig, you know, uh, accepters of
acceptors of refugees, Syrians,Syrias, especially Afghans and
Syrians and a lot of Kurds, justa lot of people all over

(38:07):
Lebanon, you know, Iraq, Iran.
So, and, and so that's, that'schanged the society.
It's much more diverse and it'sput strains on the social
fabric.
Sure.
But still, it's, it's a hightrust society.
Yeah.
And, and so here, you know, thedivision and the disdain, I
think, you know, it's really, tome it's really poisoning the
well.
And, uh, it, it's really hard toget that back.

(38:30):
And so, you know, I appreciatepeople who are open to different
points of points of view.
Yeah.
And my views have changed a loto over time.
And um, you know, I think Ijust, we need to come back
because at the end of the day,we have so many shared values
and so many common things, butit's like we're on opposite

(38:50):
teams and we're just, you know,we're just, well, and trust is
the lubricant of society besidesYeah, that's right.
You know, everything is justeasier if you trust the person
that you're doing business with.
Yeah.
That's right.
Or the doctor that's giving youa prescription or whatever.
Yeah.
Um, so yeah, that's right.
Investing in that I think wouldbe useful for sure.
Yeah.
Um, so let's talk to yourexperience in Sweden.

(39:14):
Mm-hmm.
Um, you were, what did you say,the inno innovative something
something something.
What was your kind of first rolethere?
Yeah.
So when we moved to Sweden,yeah.
Uh, I ended up teachingentrepreneurship for, so I was
based at the Royal Institute ofTechnology.
Oh, there I heard it.
Yeah.
Which is like the MIT of Sweden,basically.
Okay.
Okay, cool.
And, but it was the RoyalInstitute, Kurt.

(39:35):
So my boss's boss's, boss'sboss's boss was the king of
Sweden, basically.
Oh really?
Uh, I say that joke.
He was never on campus oranything like that, but you
know, it is And is the king ofSweden, um, got power in Sweden.
It.
It's more ceremonial.
More ceremonial.
Yeah.
Figure figurehead.
There's a royal family there andit's more, I more similar, the
tabloids UK, whatever.
Yeah.
Stuff.
Yeah.
I mean they're, they, they do alot of charitable stuff.

(39:57):
Sure.
A lot of civil society stuff.
Yep.
Is basically mostly what theydo.
It's mostly a formality, but, soI was based there at the
technical university, but withinthe Department of Economics and
Management or IndustrialEconomics and Management.
But I was working for aconsortium of five different
universities.
Hmm.
So I was teaching appliedentrepreneurship to students

(40:17):
from our technical school.
Yep.
The business school, the medicaluniversity.
Oh, interesting.
Which is very prestigious.
The Stockholm University, thecity university.
Okay.
And then the design school.
Oh, interesting.
And so it was really cool.
And then I was teaching inEnglish because my Swedish isn't
goodness.
So I'd have a lot of exchangestudents Oh wow.
From all over the world.

(40:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so I had, I had largeclasses, so literally all over
the world.
Tons from Asia, Africa, youknow, you name it, not as many
from North and South America,but you know, all over Europe
obviously.
But so to bring people together,so we had lawyers and architects
Sure.
And designers and you know,people of fashion.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, but they're there.
And I was teaching appliedentrepreneurship.

(40:59):
So one of the classes wasideation.
So coming up with innovative newventure ideas.
So of course they have to do agroup project and they have to
together come up with somethingYeah.
And then do an elevator pitchand write a, not a business
plan, but a kind of, a kind ofcase, least a case about it.
Yeah.
And I was teaching businessmodel innovation and, and then I
was also teaching, uh,leadership over there to Swedish

(41:21):
executive MBA students.
Hmm.
So most of what I was doing overthere, you know, finishing the
Triple Crown leadership bookand, and then teaching, and then
I did some side speaking inEurope and Asia and kind of some
side projects.
Yeah.
One of the phrases I like, uh,and I don't even remember the,
the Source, some old newsletterI used to read, but kind of the

(41:42):
foundation of all economics is,comes down to two words, add
value.
Mm.
And.
I think that's true.
But when you think about appliedentrepreneurship, you know it's
adding value, but it's addingvalue in a way that you've got
some competitive advantage.
Yeah.
Right.
Like, it, it's not just addvalue.
'cause then you're a, you candig ditches and add value, but

(42:02):
Right.
May or may not get hired.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
And so I would encourage mystudents, and this was hard
'cause I mean, innovation ishard, but, uh, so we looked at
what are the key aspects ofentrepreneurship?
Well, one of the things, I mean,the very word entrepreneur means
one who undertakes like aproject.
Oh, interesting.
One who takes action.

(42:23):
That's what the French wordmeans.
Right.
So it, it's like the actingperson is a good way to think
about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you can't be one of thosepeople who's like, thinking
around too much.
Yeah.
You're just a big ideas guy onand make stuff happen.
You gotta put stuff out there,you gotta ship product, you
know?
Right.
Mm-hmm.
So that's one thing.
Um, you've gotta generate valueto your point, but you also have
to find a way to capture value,right.
So that it's sustainablebusiness model.

(42:45):
And ideally you want to innovatetoo.
You want to do thingsdifferently that are adding
value, right?
And so that, that tends to bepart of, you know, the
entrepreneurship equation asopposed to just so, and that's,
you know, difficult to do andit's, it's a high standard, one
of the, and then you gotta beresourceful, you gotta marshal
resources creatively, et cetera.
One of the things that's beeninteresting is the number of,

(43:07):
um, different businesses thathave, I guess, sprung forth from
the shared economy kind ofelement.
You know, I guess it was Uberfirst, right?
Or maybe it was VRBO even kindof first, right?
And then Airbnb came along andUber and ride share services.
But there's also now, you know,heavy construction equipment

(43:30):
leasing on a shared model andjust all kinds of different
things.
Yeah.
So like applying that.
Innovation to a number ofdifferent industries has been a
spark that created a, a, atleast a somewhat sustainable
company a few times now.
Yeah.
Is there other things, you know,AI put AI on it and turn it into
a business.

(43:50):
Is that, is that, is that partof the model these days?
I think it is these days.
I mean, it's incredible.
It's like in the pace betterthan c, b, D, you know, five
years ago, put CCB D on it.
I love it.
Yeah.
Cure all your ills.
It's completely changing.
I think the, the game forentrepreneurs, but also for
entrepreneurship education whereyou have chat GBT and questions.
Sure.
You're supposed to come up withideas, but, and then, but, but

(44:13):
really what you want do is comeup with five good ideas for me.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And then so.
Part of my teaching was thatapplied entrepreneurship.
Another part I, we'd also getstudents in an entrepreneurship
and innovation maggea program,which is a one year master's.
And a bunch of them wereinterested in corporate
innovation.
Hmm.
And so they didn't want to goout and start their own

(44:33):
companies entrepreneurship more,they wanted to be the
intrapreneurs, the insideentrepreneurs.
And so we tried to teach in waysthat was relevant to both the
kind of Sure.
Early stage startup or thecorporate.
And, and, and a lot of theprinciples do apply.
Yeah.
Um, and, and you don't, and abunch of them are gonna actually
end up going to work for amanagement consulting or a bank,
but maybe they can be part of askunk works.

(44:54):
Sure.
Or Mavericks.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's really hard too, toinnovate within the bureaucracy
and the complexity.
Well, that's what I was justthinking about.
If you look at like big trendsover time, you know, startups
happen.
Some of them grow slow, some ofthem grow fast and become middle
market, and then typically getacquired by some other bigger
company and then.
Then their pace of job crea, jobcreation kind of slows and

(45:18):
eventually goes down.
Yeah.
You know, big companies aren'tYeah.
Really big job creators.
It's little companies.
Right.
Um, and so if you could bringthat sense of entrepreneurship
to.
Uh, big companies, you know,maybe they can continue to
create new jobs'cause theycreate new things to do.
That's right.
I mean, we would look at thework of Clayton Christensen on
disruptive innovation.

(45:38):
Mm-hmm.
And how many companies that werethe market leader ended up
getting surprised and outcompeted.
Yeah.
By somebody, you know, Kodakinvented the digital cameras,
you know, and all sorts ofblockbuster, you go down the
list.
Netflix was originally thedisruptor and then got
disrupted, right.
And started to disrupt again.
So you go through thisdisruptive innovation graveyard.
So you gotta really keepinnovating and keep looking, you

(46:00):
know, at the horizon.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's really, reallydifficult.
But I was kind of on the frontend, I mean, of this, you know,
the Stockholm has a reallygreat.
Startup ecosystem.
Okay.
They've had some, you know,it's, it's a small country, but
they punch way above theirweight.
They've got Spotify, they've gotKlarna.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They've got all sorts of, uh,interesting things.
Skype was a Danish Swedishthing, you know, a, a bunch of

(46:21):
really exciting ventures.
And so I would get the studentswho would take the first
entrepreneurship class and thenlike continue on to the late I
and I would teach the earlyones.
And then many of them would goon to like the incubators or the
accelerators or other classes.
Yeah.
Or they'd go on to start.
So it was kind of fun to getthem early.
Yeah.
People were kind ofentrepreneurship, curious.

(46:42):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
And kind of get them excitedabout it, but also with our life
entrepreneurs model.
'cause this is not justsomething that you can think
about with your professionalcareer, but it's a whole kind of
a mindset or a way of life too.
Well, and when you think aboutlike, I mean, I'm sure you've
met, you know, dozens ofbusiness people over the years
and things, and a lot of themost successful people.

(47:04):
A, they have a multi-tieredcareer.
You know, do a little of thisand different things and stuff.
But also they have amulti-tiered asset foundation.
Yeah.
You know, it, it was like when Iwas growing up and I guess not
that different in age from you,I'm probably a little older, but
there was a lot of, you know,the stock market was kicking
butt and so it was just kind oflike, you know, get the 401k

(47:24):
match, match it fully and thenwhen you retire you'll be good.
Yeah.
Um, but really a lot more peopleare invested in real estate or
different kind of alternativeinvestments, even equity.
Mm-hmm.
And startups and smallcompanies.
And I think that seems more fun.
Yeah.
You know, than just relying onBlackRock to manage my, or
Vanguard to manage my 401k Good.

(47:45):
Yeah, exactly.
And the stock market to continueto go up forever.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
The fun side, the adventureside.
And you know, for me.
Teaching, uh, entrepreneurshipwas also cool because I had this
background doing a scale upYeah.
Where I was brought in by anentrepreneur, um, who, um, was

(48:05):
connected with a largeeducation, col conglomerate
private equity that wasinvesting in education ventures
from pre-K all the way to adulteducation.
And I had this background in Kto 12 education and ed reform
and think, think tank andstartup foundation and charter
schools, which are a form ofentrepreneurial innovation
within public education.
Yep.
So I got hired out of my secondmaster's degree, I did an MBA as

(48:28):
well.
And right out of that I gothired.
Beginning stage, like, you know,we were like, buy tables and you
know, there were like five ofus, right?
Right.
But there was a founder.
Okay.
And I was part of the seniormanagement team.
All right.
And he said, let's disruptonline education, because back
then it was a bunch of mom andpops doing online schools.
Mm.
And he said, let's go raise aboatload of money.

(48:50):
Mm.
He's had these connections withthis, uh, private equity and
Goldman and McKinsey and allthese big, big money people.
And we're gonna scale up a worldclass online education venture
and do it at scale in the UnitedStates.
Hmm.
Through.
Different business lines, butone of which was virtual charter
schools.
Oh, interesting.
So instead of doing a brick andmortar charter school where the

(49:12):
kid, instead of going to theirneighborhood, public or private
school Sure.
They go to a neighborhoodphysical charter school.
We say, let's do a virtual Yeah.
Charter school.
And you're, you're morederegulated Sure.
To be innovative school ofchoice.
Yeah.
And so instead of it beinglocally based, we'd get a
statewide charter to do.
Our first one was thePennsylvania Virtual Charter

(49:32):
School, and then we, our secondone was the Colorado Virtual
Academy.
Oh, is that right?
Yeah.
And then we went, you know,trying to get 50 states and that
was my business line that I ledfor the company.
Okay.
That brought me in to run.
And then we had a homeschoolingline and a supplemental
education line.
Oh wow.
And is that still.
There?
Or did they Yeah.
So did they have an exit orsomething?
So the company, uh, is stillgoing, uh, it's rebranded now.

(49:54):
It used to be, well, when Ifirst started we were called
Premier School.
Then very quickly we changed toK12 Incorporated.
Okay.
K12 Inc.
Yep.
And that was a great URL we werek12.com.
Right.
So it was perfect.
Yeah.
In the education space.
Yeah.
But now, uh, they've changedtheir name and, uh, they, so I
was with them for the first fouryears.
Okay.
Uh, pre IPO.

(50:14):
And that was kind of where yougot your chops to get this job
in Stockholm, kind of, yeah.
A little bit.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, uh, and then, uh,subsequently they.
iPod.
Yep.
And then they're a billiondollar plus, uh, publicly traded
company now.
Okay.
And then they're servingfamilies, I think in more than
80 countries, I believe.
Um, and now they're calledStride is their new name.

(50:38):
Oh.
And I've Oh, I've heard of that.
Okay.
Yeah, and I, it's long.
It's been a long time, so, yeah.
No affiliations.
But it was, it was, it was fun.
It was I'm sure incrediblecoming outta business school for
me to go.
And we became the market leadervery quickly.
Yeah.
We went from zero to like.
$65 million in sales in likefour years, I think.
Awesome.
We had hun hundreds of employeesin four years.

(50:58):
Wow.
And we almost ran outta cash,you know, like three times.
Yeah, exactly.
This is like drinking out of afire hose.
Yeah.
Bet.
It was like, crisis opportunity.
Fly here, do a deal.
What are we doing?
How are we working?
Hire more people.
Can't hire them fast enough.
Where was the founder from?
Like what was his background?
Yeah, so he was, uh, this, uh,previous, uh, management

(51:19):
consultant.
Okay.
In investment banking.
And he was wired in with somebig money.
Yeah.
Uh, like billionaire money.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, and real brilliant.
He was just looking for thathome run ball.
Visionary kinda, yeah.
Visionary.
Looking for like a big, boldbet.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it was helpful'cause we hadbig money behind us initially.
And then of course, you know, aswe, as we grew, we had to bring
in other funders and this kindof thing.

(51:40):
Sure.
Yeah.
I wasn't, I wasn't on the, Imean, I contributed to our decks
and stuff, but I was like.
Go out and scale the virtualcharter thing as quickly as
possible.
Okay.
So I was like, and did thatinclude like building the
program and stuff too then?
So like the content that youwere training these kids, or
where did that come from?
No.
No.
So we, we hired, uh, they did agreat job of, uh, hiring, you

(52:03):
know, really good people.
So we had World, world-classcurriculum.
Folks.
Developers.
Yeah.
Teachers, instructionaldesigners, assessment experts,
interesting.
User experience people, and thenof course the business people,
you know Sure.
And whatnot.
And then I was this charterschool guy, think tank guy who
knew about that whole thing,which seemed like it might be a

(52:24):
good opportunity for us.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, uh, I wasn't involved in thedevelopment of the lessons or
the assessments, but, but theybrought in really primo it
people's all work.
Yeah.
And it, the, the quality of itwas, was awesome.
It was, it was great.
Have you seen, uh, are youfamiliar with Jordan Peterson?
I'm sure you've at least heardof him.
Mm-hmm.
He's got that PetersonUniversity.

(52:45):
Have you learned about that atall?
No, I don't.
So he's got, it's all videos,you know, but courses from, you
know, Harvard professors anddifferent things that he's
assembled, but it's, I thinkthey just dropped the price to 3
99 a year.
Mm-hmm.
To have all of it.
Yeah.
And, uh, they've got like 50,000people signed up.
Yeah.
It's incredible.

(53:05):
And it's like incredible.
A classic liberal arts educationwith it's incredible premier
professors and stuff and talkabout disruption, higher
education.
I'm sure.
Like Harvard's like, like stopthat shit, dude.
Yeah, exactly.
And that's been happening for awhile with Coursera and all
these free courses where you cantake MIT Harvard.
Totally.
You know, Oxford, you know, yougo around the world.
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah.
So it's an interesting, uh,yeah, they just, I think they

(53:26):
just said they dropped the pricefrom 5 9 9 to 3 9 9'cause they
got so much volume that theydon't need to charge that much
anymore.
Yeah, yeah.
But but this venture, so thiswas back in 2000 when we started
this.
Yeah.
And um, so the idea, our foundersaid he had kids and one of his
kids was struggling with mathand back then you go online and
you say math help, whatever.

(53:47):
Yeah.
And you'd get a bunch of stuff,but it was just wild west.
Sure.
Some of it was good, some of itwas just terrible.
Right.
And he's like, well, how do youcurate this?
How do you know what's good?
And he said, well, huh.
What if we could do world classeducation and basically, um,
take away the problem in thiscountry of your quality of

(54:08):
education depends on your zipcode.
Right?
If you live in a nice schooldistrict Yep.
Good education, good teachers.
Yep.
But in a lot of, if you're inBaltimore, smaller towns, not so
much inner city, you know, lackof access to, you know, a job
pool of quality educators toteach calculus or to teach
foreign languages or whatnot.
And so we could bring worldclass regardless of where you

(54:30):
are.
So that was, it was kind of asocial mission.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But also a big bet scale and youknow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sounds like it was a lot of fun.
And it was, yeah.
You know, opened the door toSweden.
Yeah.
Was that like a dream of yourswith your wife before to, to go
live in Sweden for a season?
You said she was from there.
And how did you find her?
Yeah.
My wife and I, uh, so Christinaand I met in upstate New York.

(54:53):
Okay.
We were both working, uh, ascamp counselors at A-Y-M-C-A
conference center.
I like it.
And so here in Colorado we havethe YMCA of the Adirondacks.
Yeah.
Or sorry.
Oh, the Rockies.
The Rockies, yeah.
Up there they have the YMC ofthe Adirondacks.
Sure.
Up in the Finger Lakes of York.
Oh.
Upstate New York.
I've, that's amazing.
I've never been, but it'sbeautiful.
It's really incredible.
Yeah.
And so, you know, I was workingwith the, uh, the monster

(55:15):
teenagers, you know, goingcamping on the weekends and, you
know, playing kickball and doingall this stuff.
Capture the flag.
I like it.
And she had the little babies,uh, and that was, it was her
job.
And, uh, so we met, uh, we datedover the summer and uh, and then
she went back to Sweden andwe're dating long distance.
Oh, wow.
And some back and forth.
Broke up and you were, and gotback together.
And 19 years old or somethinglike this?

(55:36):
Early twenties.
At that point I was earlytwenties.
Yeah.
And I had, uh, let's see,finished the London Master's
degree.
And then, uh, yeah, I came backand was just doing a summer job
with my best friends.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, and, uh, yeah.
And then so my Swedish wife andI eventually we got engaged and
started a family and we said,well, you know, I'm American and

(55:57):
she's Swedish, and if we'regonna and raise a family, we
wanna honor both our Swedish andour American Sure.
And raise them bilingually andgive them experiences of both.
And are you, uh.
Good in Swedish.
Now, I can't say I'm good.
I can say that I better than Iwas.
I can understand, uh, most of itand follow most things and read
newspapers and, you know,whatever, but, but I, uh, I was

(56:20):
teaching in English over thereYeah.
And writing the book and busyraising.
And so I, you know, and then mywife is just good with
languages.
Christina, she's just got theear for it.
She lived in Germany and she cando Spanish and German.
Wow.
A lot of Europeans are, yep.
We, Americans don't prioritizethat as much.
We don't need to.
Right.
We've got this huge country andI just, I don't, I'm not

(56:40):
particularly gifted in that, soI'm, I'm, I'm okay.
I can, I can awkwardly, youknow, you know, I'm
conversational, but certainlynot fluent.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fair enough.
Yeah, I was thinking about the,the, I'm sorry to scroll chase
on you a little bit, but the,the ethics part of that, you
know, excellent, ethical andenduring.

(57:03):
I don't know if you come from a,like a faith background, but
what, what is ethical is such aninteresting question.
I'm in the Rotary Club and wehave the four-way test.
I don't know if you're familiarwith that, but the, so the
other, the things, so tell methe four of the things we think,
say and do.
Mm-hmm.
Is it the truth?
Is it fair to all concerned?
Will it build goodwill andbetter friendships and will it
be beneficial to all concerned?

(57:23):
Mm.
And that's kind of like, becauseit's a non-political,
non-religious organization bycharter.
Yeah.
But they want it to be anethical organization.
Yeah.
Like that's kind of the testthat they adopted.
Yeah.
Um.
But how did, like, depending onyour view, even of, of God and
the 10 Commandments or of like,I'm kind of a libertarian, so

(57:45):
just'cause the government tellsme to do something doesn't mean
I should.
Yeah.
Uh, but for some people they'relike, well, but that's the law.
Yeah.
I'm like, well, but it's noteven an ethical law because the
speed limit is too low for thatroad.
Like they shouldn't beharvesting tickets there.
That's unethical.
Yeah.
Um, what would you say to that?
Yeah, so I would say that I'm aperson of faith too.
I'm a Christian as well as is myfather.

(58:08):
Although my growing up was very,um, secular.
My, my, uh, parents are refugeesfrom the Catholic church and
Okay.
Came back to it.
And so it wasn't part of mygrowing up.
Um, I can't say that the.
Our, my Christian faith and ourChristian faith specifically
informed the ethical piece ofthe book.

(58:30):
Yeah.
You know, and back then we're ata different stage in our journey
and it, but it was much more sowe define ethical as, as very
simply.
We like to kind of break thingsdown very simply for
practitioners, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so in the book we, we saiddoing the right thing, even when
it's costly or hard.
Hmm.
And then of course, then there'sdebates about what's the right
thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then, you know, I do a lotof teaching of leadership, so we

(58:50):
get into different ethicaltheories and frameworks and we
get into, well, it's almost aproof of God, right?
Yeah.
Like the fact that most peoplehave a pretty strong Yeah.
Understanding of what the rightthing is.
Right.
Regardless of their, yeah.
Ethnic background or culturalbackground or whatever.
Yeah.
Mostly the right thing is prettywell agreed to.
That's right.
That's right.

(59:11):
Yeah.
And so just to, just to get morespecific, you know, so the kinds
of things we're talking about inthat chapter or in that section
are things like being honest,telling the truth.
Yeah.
You know, demonstratingcharacter through behaviors of
extending trust and beingtrustworthy, doing what you said
you would do, you know, uh, so,uh, you know, following up on

(59:35):
things, you know, and so you'reearning credibility, which is a
function of character andcompetence.
And so, and you know, I'vesubsequently seen Jacuzzis and
Posner have the leadershipchallenge.
Yeah, yeah.
They do the survey of peoplearound the world for decades,
you know?
Yeah, yeah.
You've got a huge data set andthey say, what do you want in a
manager?
What do you look for?
Yeah.
In terms of who you wouldwillingly follow.

(59:56):
Yeah.
The number one finding.
Uh, uh, you know, over time,decades is honesty is the most
important thing by far.
It's like 80% and then it dropsdown to the sixties, and then it
goes down from there.
Wow.
So people most want, and, and ifyou're not honest with people,
then you're gonna very quicklydestroy trust and credibility,
and it's gonna.

(01:00:17):
And, and things changeddramatically.
So that, I think that's apowerful finding.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, makes sense.
Yeah.
Um, where did we leave off?
We were in Sweden.
We were in Sweden.
And, uh, yeah, so, and so, I, Idon't think I really answered
your question.
Was kind of like the, tell meabout the Swedish chapter of
your life, I think isessentially nutshell, well, you

(01:00:37):
kind of answered it like youwanted to have that opportunity
for your kids to have a, ashared experience culturally
wise.
Yeah.
And were they or your, orChristina resistant to come back
to the States when it was time,or, or were you Yeah.
It was hard, I think, uh, inmany ways.
So taking a 13-year-old girl andan 11-year-old girl Yeah.

(01:00:58):
And saying, okay, you've grownup here in Sweden.
You've gone to Swedish schools.
Yeah.
You must leave all your friendsSwedish with your Swedish
friends.
And now that you're a teenageror a pre, you know, you know,
uh.
You know, we're gonna moveacross an ocean to a place that
you've only visited, you know,once a year for Christmas.
Yeah.
Or summers or whatnot where, youknow, grandma and grandpa and
you know, the, you know, auntsand uncles.

(01:01:20):
But it was brutally hard, um, Ithink for, for all of us, uh,
but especially, you know, forthe girls.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, I remember when I was13 it was not easy being, you
know that.
Right.
And, uh, so I subsequentlylearned that our, our oldest
daughter, um, she didn't saythis to me and I'm not sure when

(01:01:42):
she said it to, to Christina,but she just couldn't imagine.
Surviving the move.
Gosh, my, my gosh.
She was just like, just, uh,like, how is this possibly I'm
gonna die.
Yeah.
Like, I just, yeah.
Like panic, fear, just noclarity or whatnot.
Mm-hmm.
Super hard.
Yeah.
Wow.
And, and then, and it, it isreally hard.
I mean, I moved around a ton andI think I underestimated how

(01:02:05):
hard it would be to move toanother country and also that
phase of life.
It's one thing to study inLondon for grad school for a
year.
Right.
It's another thing to go livefor 10 years and build a new
life for a family and have tomake all new friends and work
connections.
So really, really hard.
But the fact that they survivedit and ended up doing well in

(01:02:26):
school.
Yeah.
Um, huge character developmentthing.
Huge confidence booster.
Yeah.
Uh, even though it's still hardin many ways, I think.
And, and then of course, did youguys do back at all?
Yeah, we pretty regularly.
Yeah.
So I still teach.
I go over there, they fly me outto teach for a week.
Okay.
At the business school.
Yeah.
And then we go back every summeras well for the social stuff.

(01:02:48):
Cool.
Um, and, uh.
Um, so, and, but we also movedback and then the pandemic hit,
and so it's like, go makefriends as a 13.
You know, it's hard enough inthe world for everybody, but if
you just moved somewhere from aforeign country and it's like,
okay, now we're gonna do school.
Well, in Sweden was terriblebecause they didn't like shut
down like they were supposed toEnough.
Very different.
Yeah, very different.

(01:03:08):
Yeah, exactly.
So yeah, the girls weren'tpaying attention to that.
Right.
But that was, it was really hardmove for everybody.
But, uh, but it, I think it'sreally good, you know, you, you
know, you have this exchangestudent Yeah.
And, you know, you're, you'rebringing people into your, your
family and your life.
And that's, it's wonderful, butit's not easy.
Like there's culturaldisconnections and just having,
you know, and just like bumpingup against different worldviews

(01:03:32):
and different languages, like,and people, sometimes you can't
translate something, there's no,there's no way to think about it
or say it in that context of aculture.
So it's really interesting.
That's, uh, one of the thingsthat Lenny told me a few weeks
back, which was prettyinteresting, is like, in
Finland, he's like.
Very charismatic and he isalways got the right, clever
thing to say.
Yeah.
And you know, has a more friendsthan he knows what to do with.

(01:03:56):
Yeah.
Here, like even though he's gotpretty good English, it isn't
deep English.
Yeah.
You know, it's superficial andso he just doesn't have that
same confidence of being likeYeah.
A charismatic, you know, draw abunch of friends kind of guy.
Exactly.
And like what that can do.
You know?
I think it's probably better forhim because he's kind of had

(01:04:17):
life too easy for too long andso having a little bit of test
of resilience is probably good.
Yeah.
But I never really thought abouthow, how, I guess maybe almost,
not quite emasculating, but kindof, you know, I've been always
a.
Awesome at this, and now I'mnot.
Yeah.
Really challenging, you know?
Yeah.
Really, it, it gave me a newappreciation for people who are
multilingual or people who areoperating in a new culture

(01:04:40):
country.
Sure.
Um, so for example, you know,our daughters came over here.
Now we have a bilingual home andalways have, so I've generally
spoken English to the girls andmy wife generally speaks swish.
That's right.
That's the way we just kind of,we understand and we go, we
bounce back and forth.
It's ska or glish as they callit, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
But, uh, when they came here.

(01:05:01):
Their heads were in Swedish.
I mean, they had grown up, theyhadn't had an English dream in
forever.
Forever.
I mean, they were three in onewhen we left.
They were for 10 years.
Oh, dang.
So, so they would hear theteacher speak in English, they
would translate it to Swedish intheir head.
In Swedish.
They would think about theirresponse.
Right.
And then in their head theywould translate that back to,
and by that time it's like theconversation's moved on.

(01:05:22):
Right, right.
It's like, it's just kind ofthat 2% delay or whatever.
It happens very quickly, butit's like layers of.
You know, it makes it much moredifficult to just spontaneously
jump in.
Yeah.
Or to make friends, or to beyour personality Yeah.
And these kinds of things.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And boy, I can relate to that.
Just trying to communicate, youknow, because I love to
communicate and write and yeah.

(01:05:43):
Brilliant.
Trust me, it's really importantin English.
I'm amazing.
I mean, as a writer, I, it'simportant to me to say something
the way I wanna say it, likeclearly and concisely so that
we're not misunderstanding, youknow, but to try to fumble
through that in Swedish, youknow, if it's not a gift for
you, it's, that's interesting.
It's frustrating.
Yeah.
Would you like to play the, uh,book giveaway game?

(01:06:05):
Absolutely.
Okay.
Let's do it.
Let's do it.
Yeah.
So this is, uh, the gift fortoday is the Triple Crown
leadership book from Bob andGreg Van Vanek Vanek.
Yes.
And, uh, so we have this amazingbowl full of p pong balls.
Alright.
And so you're gonna grab threeof those out of there.
Okay.

(01:06:26):
And you can grab all three ifyou want.
And we'll go through one.
We go, alright, we got 12.
This is my lucky number.
That was my soccer numbergrowing up.
Right?
I like it.
1229 and 26.
Oh, oh, let's see what thoseare, Kurt.
All right.
12 right here.
That's a fun one.
And we'll choose our, my, ourfavorite answer of these.
And then when somebody writes'em, we'll give'em the book.

(01:06:47):
Alright.
Great.
So 12.
Uh, what's the best piece ofadvice you've ever received?
About business?
Hmm.
About business?
Yeah.
I'd have to say that it comesfrom my father, not
surprisingly, perhaps notsurprised.
I had this front row seat towatching my dad's business
career Yeah.
And leadership and all this.
And going to the office, meetingcolleagues, going to the company

(01:07:08):
picnic.
And, you know, I was initially,um, skeptical about business,
uh, and, uh, thought I, Ithought I wanted to be in public
policy and government and po Ihad a whole mm-hmm.
Uh, part of my career in that.
Um, but, but he, he told me, hesaid, Greg business is a set of

(01:07:29):
relationships.
Like what, what matters most ispeople that you work with.
And so what he meant by that wasbe a good colleague.
Support people, get to knowthem.
And he really made an effort toget to know people even though
he was a hard driven Type AYeah.
High achiever, Harvard BusinessSchool competitive dude.

(01:07:50):
Right.
Sure.
He had really had to mellow outand, you know, I really have to
say that it was cool over theyears,'cause I'd made a bunch of
his colleagues at the picnic orat the office or the cafeteria,
we'd have lunch and then overthe years people would stay in
touch with him.
Mm-hmm.
And I would talk to some of themand they would say.
It was incredible to be part ofa team where we cared about each

(01:08:14):
other.
We worked so hard.
We, we, we, you know, it waslike a family.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it was like a highlight oftheir career and it was a
highlight of their life.
Yeah.
And they were just so gratefulto have a leader like that and,
and a team like that.
And so business is a set ofrelationships, and so I think,
wow.
It's just, well, I think what'sinteresting is that it's kind of
a contrast to the way academiaworks sometimes too.

(01:08:37):
Mm-hmm.
Like because they're like, maybeI'm wrong, but it seems like
they're a bunch of back stabbersa lot of times and they're
trying to get their owncredibility and their own
research paper and Yes.
You know, if they burn up thisgrad student grading papers and
suffering through for mybenefit, well it's'cause I'm
awesome and you should do that.
Yes, that's right.
Yeah.
The politics there.

(01:08:57):
Also the arrogance sometimes,right?
Because you're so brilliant inone thing that you just assume
you know, whatever, and, uh, andthat sometimes you're a little
too cerebral for your own good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm a big, I worked at athink tank and here we are at
Loca.
I'm a big believer in like thepower of head and heart.
But it's like, but you also haveto have that relationship and
don't forget about connectingwith students to Yeah, yeah.

(01:09:18):
To invite them into the subjectso that they care about it,
they, they see the relevance ofit.
Yeah.
Don't just be lost in theacademic paper and what, in the
publishing.
And that you're losing theconnection with industry in the
real world and the students.
I like that.
Yeah.
Um, 26 and 29, is that right?
Should we go in order of numberor you tell me.
Tell me.
You take us, you take us whereyou want to go.

(01:09:38):
Um.
Describe your first kiss.
Okay, so let's see.
Oakwood, Ohio, the lumberjacks.
I was in junior high school.
Okay.
And was the new kid in town.
Had moved from ca from SouthernCalifornia.
I grew up.
Okay.

(01:09:58):
And, uh, you know, I talked, wetalked earlier about the
awkwardness of being a teenagerand whatnot.
Sure.
My hair was just moppy and thebraces and everything.
I, I mean, I did get a littlebit of cache about being the new
kid from California.
So that was positive.
You were kind of.
And some little bit cool ispositive and negative.
There was some brutal stuffgoing on with people, you know,

(01:10:20):
not being nice to Sure.
But I, I ended up meeting somegood friends.
But anyway, there was acheerleader, uh, and I, I was a
soccer player.
I got in a band, I played theguitar.
Alright.
And, and so I had my first kisswith the cheerleader.
Okay.
And, you know, she was cute andit was all exciting.
I was all nervous and, uh, I wasterrible at it.
And it was just, you know, itwas like so awkward and it was

(01:10:42):
like, we, we shall never talk ofthis again kind of thing.
Didn't date or anything likethat.
We didn't date or anything like,huh.
I'm not sure I did that so well.
I've got some stuff to learnhere.
So.
Well, luckily Christina camealong not too much later to
teach the proper Christina cameand it's probably, I'm probably
not the only one who had thatexperience, so I don't know.
So, um, and then what's yourgo-to way to unwind after a

(01:11:04):
stressful day?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So yeah, I'm a big believer thatwe need to unwind more and
better.
And so I like to read a lot.
Okay.
I like to, I'll go out on thedeck and just be outside.
Um, go for a walk.
We have a couple dogs and threecats, so sometimes my wife and I
will go for a walk and just talkabout our day and talk about

(01:11:26):
stuff.
Maybe we need to vent a littlebit, um, uh, reading and, uh,
just kind of chilling.
I like to do a little snuggle onthe couch.
Our younger daughter's moresnuggle prone now than our older
daughter, but just getting somegood family time.
Yeah, some good connectivitytime.
And then I, I like when I go tobed for a while now, I've been

(01:11:47):
doing the kind of three thingsthat I'm grateful for about the
day, just as I'm lying in bedbefore I go to sleep.
Nice.
And it's just, it's been reallynice.
Yeah.
And, and often like.
Many more things come to me.
Right.
But at least three, it's gottabe three.
Yeah.
Even if you had a tough day,there's, there's still three in
there.
You got, you gotta do it.
I think so.
You know, but it's, it's cool.
It's just puts you in a goodspirit before you.

(01:12:07):
One of my favorite, uh, quotesfrom my dad and when you
mentioned sitting out on thedeck or whatever, uh, I kind of
imagine a guy in a rocking chairat an old farmhouse or whatever,
but, uh, sometimes I sits andthinks and sometimes I just
sits.
And I don't know why that liejust really makes me smile.

(01:12:28):
But, you know, just sittingYeah.
Sometimes.
Exactly.
And like taking a hike is kindof a way of just sitting.
Yeah.
You know, you're not thinkingabout this person's work
performance or that email yougot forgot to respond to for a
week in a row now.
Yeah.
Yeah, so I'm a big fan of TheEagles and Don Henley.

(01:12:48):
There's a song Learn to Be Stillthat just really hits me and I
think, you know, if you and Ioperate in the world of
entrepreneurs and leaders andambitious people, and you've
done a lot of exciting thingsand there's value in hard work,
I love hard work and whatnot.
Yeah.
But we also need to learn to bestill Yeah.
Be able to get still and just bepeaceful, serene.
Yeah.
In Swedish, you say Lu, just becalm and just calm and

(01:13:11):
collective.
Say just, you know, just bestill.
What's the, uh, the Swedish wordfor like adventure?
You mentioned that a lot in yourlife.
Entrepreneur thing.
I think it's Avenir if I'm notmistaken.
So it's pretty similar.
Almost sounds the same.
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah.
I dig it.
Well, the winner of thequestion, I think even though
they're all fun, I think the,uh, business is a set of

(01:13:33):
relationships.
Yeah.
From the, the, the vaunted.
Bob VanEck, uh, is the right,uh, quote there.
So, uh, text us DMS we'll getyou a copy of this book.
Excellent.
And I'm gonna call it BreakPotty Break.
Yeah.
And then we'll come back in forthe rest of it.
Let's do it.

(01:14:48):
And we're back.
So I wanted to zoom in on, uh.
Your family a little bit more.
Mm-hmm.
You mentioned, uh, Christina,you know, met pretty early.
Has she had her own career aswell or has she been focused on
raising the girls mostly?
Yeah.
She's had a career.
Okay.
So, um, and she's gone throughsome career changes too, like
me.
Sure.
So she was, early on, she wasdoing, uh, graphics assisting

(01:15:13):
for McKinsey and Company mm-hmm.
Helping consultants with theirdecks.
And she did some executiveassistant work.
She studied public relationshere in the us.
Okay.
Uh, but then she, she grew up ona farm.
She competed, uh, in equestriangrowing up.
Okay.
Uh, competitively with adressage and show jumping.
Okay.

(01:15:33):
And she loves horses and animalsand she just has a knack for it.
And so at one point she said,I'm thinking about going back to
school to become a veterinarytechnician.
Hmm.
And, uh, and you're like, vettechs don't make nearly as much
as you, they don't, they don'tmake nearly as much.
Are you sure that, and she, youknow, she was just all into it.

(01:15:56):
Yeah.
So she went back to school.
Yeah.
Here in Colorado with Be Raybecame a certified tech and, you
know, really intense schooling,big transition to kind of take
that time off.
Yeah.
Early career and do that.
Um, and, you know, all thelearning, all the science and
all that.
Sure.
And boy, his, she, she justthrives.

(01:16:16):
She's great at what she does.
Yeah.
She's so good.
Both with the animals, likereading the nervous dogs or the
aggressive dogs Sure.
Or the cats, but also thehumans.
Yeah.
And going through all the stuffthey do with surgeries and
dentals and Yeah.
Yeah.
When putting the animals downand guiding the families through
that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She's just amazing at it.
Neat.

(01:16:36):
And we also have dogs and shetrains them and competes with
them.
Oh, wow.
And so it's been in incred andthen, you know, I didn't grow up
with any pets.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I was, you know, allergic todogs and cats, but, oh, is that
right?
I've overcome that.
Oh.
And, and love in just love.
It's added so much to ourfamily.
Our girls love it.
How do you overcome that?
I just outgrew that.
Oh, okay.

(01:16:57):
And, uh, I was gonna say, youjust rub yourself with dogs
until you get over it.
And, and then partly I think mydiet has helped too, like, uh
mm-hmm.
And I didn't do thispurposefully for that reason,
but it's just, I think forwhatever reasons, uh, that's
manageable.
But yeah, you just, you.
Acclimate yourself.
Sometimes I was able to, youknow, my, my body was able to do
that somehow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it was a test when wefirst got pets.

(01:17:17):
Like, I don't know if this isgonna work.
You know, our first pet is like,I need to breathe.
So let's see.
Really is very, is moreimportant to me than this dog.
Yeah.
But it's been so fun.
Oh, cool.
So we love it.
And we foster, we've fostered, Idon't know, more than 60 or 70
cats.
Oh my gosh.
Some kittens over the years.
Oh, wow.
Just for like a month at a time.
Oh, cool.
You know, for, for a group.
Yeah.
That's pretty neat.
It's super fun.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what kind of dogs?

(01:17:37):
We have two hunting Labradors.
Okay.
So we've got Morrison and orMoog as we call'em.
And we've got messy named afterthe soccer player.
Nice.
Nice.
And so we've got a black huntinglab and then a white hunting
lab.
And they're, Christina has donean amazing job and so does she
hunt with them then?
So, yeah, she goes out on hunts.
Yeah.
And so she's not the oneshooting, she's the one when the
shot, it's, it's, mm-hmm.

(01:17:58):
Often they do it with a dummy,but sometimes it's with live fo.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They'll go out and, and she doesthis mostly in Sweden, but
sometimes here too.
'cause you know, we bring'emover in the, in the summer.
Yeah.
Summertime.
Yep.
But, you know, through thewater, you know, very long
distances directing, calling himback, different signals.
It's, it's, uh, very impressive.
So I guess guns are a littlemore allowed in Sweden.
I, I meant, actually, I tookLenny shooting yesterday.

(01:18:20):
He shot his first gun, so heshot a, a, oops.
Greenheart Exchange says you'renot supposed to do that, but
hopefully they won't listen tothis.
But we shot a 22 and, uh, like a2 23 rifle and then a shotgun.
Okay.
Which was the one that surprisedhim the most.
But it's punch.
Yeah.
But it, but in Finland, likeeven though there's a one year
mandatory military service Yeah.

(01:18:41):
After high school, then theytake your gun back and nobody's
got guns.
Okay.
Uh, Sweden's a little bit moreopen, I guess, or, yeah.
So I don't know about England'sthe kings.
The king's people can shoot.
Yeah.
I wanna talk to the king.
Everybody's my boss'.
Boss boss, yeah.
So, yeah.
So, um, with hunting, um, it isallowed and it's just very,
they, they do have very strictregulations about it, about

(01:19:02):
getting access to it and how youstore it and all these kinds of
things, but Sure, yeah.
They do have, you know.
Okay.
Yeah.
I was curious because most ofEurope is largely un gunned
Yeah.
At this point in time.
And not that a double barrelshotgun's gonna do much to fend
off your invasion or whatever.
Right.
So tell me about that younglove, like why, even though she

(01:19:23):
was across the pond mm-hmm.
Uh, right after you got to knoweach other, kind of, why did you
continue to pursue that longdistance?
Was it just that obvious thatshe was the girl for you or vice
versa?
Yeah, I would say that, um, I.
You know, we had a, a greatsummer together.
We were both, you know,counseling the kiddos and we had
fun.
We played music together.
I played the guitar and she sangand we performed live a little

(01:19:45):
bit.
Mm, that's fun.
Just had fun, you know, with ourfriends and going out and being
part of that.
I.
Summer, but we would also go uphiking in the, the Adirondacks
are incredible and the, thelakes, there's something almost
spiritual about them.
It's just this kind ofincredible, and we'd just go up
on the hikes and look over thebeautiful scenery.
We'd have these long talks andwe just, we just really

(01:20:07):
connected on a deeper level andjust very quickly just.
Got a sensely, we shared valuesand whatnot.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so, and then we were justvery open.
It wasn't kind of, okay, we'redefinitely gonna, you know, but
we were just, let's keep dating.
Yeah.
But this is really hard.
And back then it was muchharder.
Right.
Skype, we were literally writingletters and mailing them.
Right.

(01:20:27):
'cause phone calls were still,fricking phone calls were still
$20 to have a short one.
Skype.
Skype wasn't, you know, blastingyet.
Yep, yep.
And, and, uh, and then we justkept fighting for it.
And we'd have three months on atemporary visa and, you know,
six months on in a schoolprogram and blah, blah, blah.
And just back in visits andwhatnot.
And just kept, and, and we dateda little bit in, in interim, you

(01:20:48):
know, period.
Other people you mean, orwhatever.
Yeah.
People, yeah.
It wasn't totally exclusive thewhole time.
You're cool, but you're notnearly as Yeah, we just kind of
cool as Christina.
Yeah.
And then it was like, no, no,this is definitely something.
Yeah.
And then we said, okay, we'regonna get really serious about
it.
And then she was able to get atransfer back then she was still
with McKenzie.
Mm-hmm.
Not as a consultant, but she wasthe first.

(01:21:09):
Uh, I think was it nonconsultant to get an
international transfer likethat.
Oh, interesting.
So she was able to betransferred over Yeah.
While I was in grad school andwe were still, you know, like 40
minutes away from each other.
Yeah, yeah.
But at least we're in the samecountry.
Yeah, yeah.
And live in the same state, sowe're able to date properly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, um, yeah.
And then neat, here we are.

(01:21:30):
Nice.
I appreciate that tenacity.
Yeah.
In that pursuit.
Yeah.
Um, by both of you, it seems.
Yeah.
One of the, one of the funthings we do on this show is
have a one word description forthe children.
Mm-hmm.
In your case, one word for eachof your two girls.
Mm-hmm.
And how old are they now?
So we've got 18 and 16.
Okay.
Yeah.
And, uh, are you willing toattempt that, uh, challenge?

(01:21:52):
Yeah.
So, uh, that's a reallyinteresting one word.
Well, you can expand beyond thatafter.
Okay.
Yeah.
Alright, good.
Some color on it.
Good, good, good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I would say, um, with Alex.
The older one, Alexandra.
Thoughtful in a way, like just areally good heart and really

(01:22:12):
kind of considerate.
Wants to be nice and kind andthink about things Yeah.
From your perspective and do theright thing.
Um, and then with Anya, funloving.
I'm gonna put, do like a word.
Yeah.
You have a dash there.
Yeah.
Just like, you know, larger thanlife energy sometimes.

(01:22:32):
Growing up she wanted to performthat adventure Inc.
Excitement, do, you know, paintand do all this kind of stuff.
And just, here I am world andlet's, let's be present in the
world.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So.
And, and of course they, they,they change as they get older
and, you know, um, go throughdifferent phases, but they still
have that.
So your 18-year-old, is shegraduating then?

(01:22:55):
Yeah, right now.
So she's about to graduate fromhigh school here, and so she's
gonna be going to CU Boulder andwas really excited.
Yeah.
She's gonna study, uh,integrative physiology.
She's already been taking somesports medicine classes.
Mm-hmm.
She's already already certifiedin working as a pt.
She's been working at the localrec center gym.
Nice.
And she's just really thrilledabout on that track.

(01:23:15):
Yeah.
It's, it's exciting to see herhave something already, like I
had at this point in my lifewhen, when I was, that was 30
before I really, I wanted to do.
Yeah.
And she's just really excitedand there's all sorts of
different options, so.
Cool.
Yeah.
Um, so I think what I wanna dois, um, shift it from there into

(01:23:35):
the advice for that kind of ageperson.
Mm-hmm.
Maybe not your daughter, your18-year-old daughter, but people
in that age of new chapters.
Mm.
Um, with the world changing sofast and AI and
entrepreneurship, and I saw athing the other day that 60% of
Gen Z want to have a businesssomeday.

(01:23:56):
Wow.
Like, that's how high the levelof.
I, I would say it's probablythe, the level of distrust for
corporations and government hasgrown to is I just wanna work
for me.
'cause those can't trust thosefighters.
Um, but like, talk to me aboutthat.
Like, it's also hard, right?
To get something, some kind ofenterprise off the ground.
Usually gotta fill your basketwith a lot of different skills

(01:24:18):
and experiences for five or 10years before you even have a
shot.
Yeah.
Um, but yeah, if you were, youknow, the, the, I don't wanna
say Alex because she's got herpath already kind of sorted, but
if you're wondering what yourpath is, how, how do you figure
it out?
Yeah.
You've kind of been working onthat kind of project a bit of
setting your strategic plan.

(01:24:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Still working on mine and it'sa, it's that quest or that
journey continues, but, but Iwould say.
Uh, trust yourself.
And part of that is also knowyourself.
Yeah.
Learn about yourself.
So I've been deeply influencedby the writings of, uh, Parker
Palmer.
Okay.
Who's a Quaker author andeducator.

(01:25:01):
Okay.
One of his books, it's abeautiful little book.
It's called Let Your Life Speak.
Hmm.
And, uh, he makes the point thatsometimes we're so busy and
we're so noisy out there.
Uh, achieving or striving orjust doing, Hmm.
That we don't get quiet like wetalked about earlier and let our

(01:25:23):
life speak.
And so part of that, to me, itmeans like pay attention to the
clues mm-hmm.
Of who you are.
Mm-hmm.
And that's why in the coachingwork that I do in my online
course, we kind of go back andwe really mind, first of all.
Who are you?
Yeah.
Before we go to what, what'snext, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think a lot of people,they're not patient enough or
they're kind of Yeah.
Yeah.

(01:25:43):
They're flippant about it andthey're like, oh, you know,
doesn't matter who I am, I justwanna know what's next.
Yeah.
Or I'm good and, you know, but,but there's real, you know,
signs from your, your childhoodand the, the childhood sparks of
what do you read?
What do you, what are youinterested when Sure.
Nobody's around, you know,what's a mystery for you?
What do you get lost in?
What are you good at?

(01:26:03):
Yeah.
What do you, what do you love?
You know, all of those areclues.
If you listen to pay attention alittle bit.
Yeah.
Pay attention and then takeaction and start experimenting.
And I don't think it's that youend up finding, I don't think we
have one passion, typically.
Sure.
But I think.
Angela Duckworth has said thatwe develop our passions more
than we discover them, but thereis some initial discovery work.

(01:26:26):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Then you gotta just startplaying with things.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And trying it, and then you,then you deepen it and you kinda
live into it, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, but a lot of people,they go with what their parents
or what, what's cool.
Yeah.
Or with their friends orsociety, and they don't, they
don't trust themselves enough.

(01:26:46):
Yeah.
Well, and listening I think ispart of that too.
Yeah.
I was just reflecting on,probably when I was in my mid
thirties, uh, one of my mentorsat the bank, I was working in
banking for a long time, andyou'd write kind of a story
about why this customer is gonnabe able to pay back your loan,
right?
Mm-hmm.
Like, here's, here's all thenumbers, here's this and that,
but here's some explanation.

(01:27:07):
Mm-hmm.
And here's some things I'velearned.
Yeah.
And, and one of my mentors said,Kurt, you're such a gifted
writer.
Like the way that you write thestory of this person, and it's
just so convincing.
And I can, I believe that you'vedone the work that you need to,
to make sure that they're gonnapay this loan back.
Yeah.
And I was like, oh, like I'm 35.
Right.

(01:27:27):
I never really thought of myselfas a writer at all.
Yeah.
Um, you know,'cause I, I'dwritten a lot, I'd journaled a
lot over the years and thingslike that and, you know, done
the essays when they wererequired and all, but not
really.
Thought about it more than that.
Yeah.
So like for me that was likejust a, a little moment, but
then when I started my business,I was like, well, I'm, I'm
writing a blog now, you know?

(01:27:48):
And, and'cause I, it helped meget myself outta my own head.
Yes.
And here you are doing thepodcast and with communication
of thoughts, of clarity, ofthoughts and what am I gonna ask
and correct how or where am Igonna go with this?
That's related obviously.
Totally.
And, and, and I think your pointat your story is interesting
because a lot of times we mightnot see it.
Yes.
Our lived experience, it's soobvious.

(01:28:10):
Yeah.
You you're just doing it.
You're just doing it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just in a moment and somebodysays, Kurt, you're really good
at that.
Like, oh, I am right.
I didn't know it.
I was just doing it.
Yep.
Right.
And so you, and often that'sthat self-doubt or you just have
no idea.
What other people, what valueother people could.
Right.
And it's hard to compareyourself.
It's like even like if you reada bunch of other people's
writing or whatever, you know?

(01:28:31):
Right.
In that case, uh, one of thethings I've said about local
think tank, this peer advisorythat we do is over time you can
kind of understand yourselfbetter because of the eyes of
others that are informing you.
Yes.
Um, because they get to reallyknow you and see you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I, I'm a huge fan of the peeradvisory group model and all the

(01:28:51):
different flavors.
I think that both in business orwhatever kind of work people do
and in their life generally,having something like that for
the.
In part for the reason we'retalking about now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But also because, you know,there's a loneliness epidemic
and a lot of people are so busyand, you know, one of the
principles I think of lifedesign that I've learned from

(01:29:13):
some of the thinkers in this, inthis space is they call it
radical collaboration.
Hmm.
Stop doing so many things alone.
Yeah.
Stop being just in your head somuch.
Put it out there, be vulnerable,get some input, ask people about
there, and go back and forth.
And, you know, when you're aworking parent, it's hard
because juggling, you know, but,but there's so much, it's

(01:29:35):
relationships back to what wetalked about earlier.
And so there's real value inthat.
Also learning about yourself bybeing in community with others.
Yeah, yeah.
While you're helping others andbeing helped and being, you
know, you let people help you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you ask for help.
Totally.
There's so much that comes up inthat, huh?
Yeah, I've, I've wondered so.
One of our members said yearsago, I think everybody should be

(01:29:57):
in this.
And, and she meant like everybusiness owner kind of, but like
part of me thinks everybodyshould be in it, you know?
And, and I said, well, but onlybusiness owners will really pay
for it.
Yeah.
Because, you know, we stillgotta make money.
And, but I, but I kind of thinkthat.
And maybe it's not us thatprovides that, but you're,
you're probably right, likeeverybody could almost benefit

(01:30:18):
by having a peer advisory kindof a group in their life.
Yeah.
And the abundance of people thatwould like to run one and help
other 10 other people live abetter life than they might
otherwise.
Yeah.
Is intriguing as well.
So, yeah.
I don't know.
Yeah, I, I think that would bewildly valuable to have.
Everybody doing something likethat.

(01:30:39):
Right.
Would be wonderful.
Once a month, I get together fortwo hours with, you know, eight
of my friends and neighbor, youknow, they weren't my friends
when I started, but I signed upfor this group and here they
are.
Right.
Yeah.
And it doesn't have to be hardand complicated, you know,
there's way you gotta getstarted, you know, maybe you can
rotate facilitation.
You guys have great markets.
Right?
Right.
But you know, one of the thingsthat I do with people in
transition is sometimes I workwith them alone, but I've done

(01:31:02):
these weekend workshops Oh sure.
And these group experiences.
Yeah.
Around crafting your lifeintentionally and your life and
work.
And it is so powerful when yousit down together with tools or
just topics, you know, like whatare your life traps?
Yeah.
Like we talked about earlier,what are your strengths?
What are your passions?
What are your values?
Tell me your story.

(01:31:22):
When did that value show up inyour life?
When did you honor it?
When did you not honor thatvalue?
Mm-hmm.
And just connecting around that.
So one of the aspects, you know,in life.
We all, I think, have a hungerfor purpose and meaning at some
level.
Sure.
One of the key ingredients ofmeaning it turns out according
to the researchers isstorytelling and coherence.

(01:31:45):
Hmm.
Right.
So my life isn't coherentenough, or it's not clear that
it's coherent enough unless Itell the story mm-hmm.
To somebody and I hear myselftelling it and they mm-hmm.
And then it's like, oh, the redthread starts to appear before
me and I see the patterns.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But if I don't take the time todo that in community, yeah,

(01:32:05):
yeah.
It's lost and I don't have asmuch of a sense of coherence,
which is one key aspect of me.
So I was just thinking aboutyour, your, I guess,
predisposition to work withpeople in transition and in
career change and stuff.
I'm guessing that they don't payas much as CEOs might for
coaching in the leadership spaceor things like that.

(01:32:27):
So this seems like more of apassion project that.
It probably compensates youenough for your time, but isn't
is motivated, but it's moreabout the purpose of it.
It is, yeah.
So to me there's different typesof compensation.
I talk about my monetary incomeand my psychic income as some
people use that term.
Yeah.
You know, I'm, you know, for meit's really important to have a

(01:32:48):
sense of purpose and passionwith what I do.
Yeah.
I work really hard.
I'm a big, you know, we'regonna, they say on average we
work about 90,000 hours in acareer and in advanced
economies.
Yeah.
If I'm gonna put in 90,000 hourstowards something, I want it to
be something that engages me,that challenges me, that I feel

(01:33:09):
I can have an impact.
You know, that's hard.
That's worth doing.
And, and so, you know, that,that purpose aspect and then,
you know, I think often I.
A lot of us purpose is relatedto pain or our own life story.
Mm-hmm.
And so I've been through a lotof transitions in my life and
it's been really good for me,but it's been hard at the same

(01:33:31):
time.
Right.
So if I can help people have thecourage to go to a transition
and less worry, less fear andless worry, but also not chicken
out.
Mm-hmm.
And avoid it because it'sunclear or you're afraid, and
then end up settling.
Right.
And, you know Yeah.
Drifting and then regretting,you know, later like, oh, I had
that dream that I wanted to do.

(01:33:51):
Right, right.
That venture that I wanted totry.
Yep.
Yep.
I don't know if it's gonna work,but it might be nice to try it
at some point in your life.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I dig it.
Yeah.
Um, let's talk about your locoexperience.

(01:34:45):
Mm.
You have a good one.
More than one.
Well, I've got a fun one thatcomes to mind.
Okay.
So, uh, when I was in graduateschool in London, it was really
cool to, uh, live abroad for thefirst time.
I had traveled a little bit, butliving abroad, right.
Had kind of early twenties anddeveloped a great friends group
of, uh, half Spanish, half Brit,close friend, Dutch friend,

(01:35:09):
couple of Americans.
And then we had a very global,um, hall where we were living
out in, in London.
There was this.
Prior to you meeting Christina,or you'd already met her?
This was, this was prior.
Okay.
This was just prior.
I was gonna say, you probablymight not have been cool enough,
uh, to snag that Swedish girl,if not for that international
experience.
Boom.
Exactly.
Anyway, keep going.

(01:35:30):
Yeah.
So, Miguel, the Spanish, Brit,he's got a car.
He, he lives there.
And we're gonna go visit our,our, our Dutch friend's, uh,
family.
So we're gonna take the car downto the ferry, catch the ferry,
and go to the Netherlands.
Yep.
And you spend a weekend orwhatever we're gonna do.
And so there's, uh, a group ofus in his red Ford escort.
And so, and I've got my guitarthere because we're jamming in

(01:35:54):
Covent Garden and everything.
We're kind of playing music andstuff and we're loading up and
it's all blah, blah.
And I'm studying the EuropeanUnion economic community or
European community at that pointit was called and everything.
'cause I was studyingcomparative government.
Yeah.
I didn't think that was gonnacome together, honestly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so we're on the way to theferry in the car and we're like,
okay, it's getting a littleclose and.

(01:36:15):
And it's okay.
Got everything.
You got your toothbrush, yougotta change your clothes, you
got your bathing suit.
'cause we're gonna go to thebeach.
Yep.
Passport.
And I go, oh, I'm not sure if Ihave my passport.
I'm like, oh, I just, you, I wasin Europe and I'm studying
Europe.
Europe.
It's like, no borders.
It's supposed to, I just forgotto bring my passport.
And we're like on the way thereand we're like, um, we could try

(01:36:39):
to go back and if we go ahundred miles an hour, you know,
we might make the ferry, butwe'll probably get, you know, we
could die.
Or.
Ah, we'll just, we'll just goand see.
See if it works.
See if it works.
So, okay, now we're plotting ourstrategy for when we get to the
border control.
Now we get to the bordercontrol, right?
There's five of us packed.

(01:36:59):
We'll put Greg in the trunk,packed in this Ford Escort with
the guitar.
It's a big acoustic guitar caseon top of us, and we're like,
okay, we have four passports forfive people.
Which one are we gonna put ontop?
We're gonna put the British one,we're gonna put the Americans,
we're gonna put the Dutch one.
We're like literally trying tostrategize the order to just,
yeah.
Yeah.
And so the border agent looksvery closely, the first

(01:37:20):
passport, looks in, looks veryclosely at the second passport.
Looks in looks and went all thepassports that we gave, but
never counted.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We just made it through.
And so that was my firstexperience was smuggling myself
abroad.
Nice.
Illegally across borders.
Get, and then we got there.
Did you get, okay.
And then we got there and thenwe're like, oh no, I didn't have

(01:37:41):
an idea.
Gonna get back.
So then we're calling and we hadmy passport shipped to Oh IDEA
International FedEx.
There you go.
And it arrived literally likeminutes before we had to leave
to go back, which is anotherpart of the story.
I like it.
I like it.
I like that trust.
Yeah.
Uh, of just being like, well,yeah, you know, it doesn't work.
Go for it.
If it doesn't work, you know,then we can take me away.

(01:38:01):
Yeah.
Whatever.
We can go back and get mypassport and take the next
barrier or whatever.
Yeah.
It was part of the spirit of ourgroup at the time, so Yeah.
I dig it.
Yeah.
Um, by the way, any, uh, do youhave music still going on in
your world?
Um, not as much as I'd like.
We, uh, more just campfirestuff.
Occasionally in the summertimewe jam a little bit and uh, and

(01:38:22):
go to some live shows, but weneed to bring that back.
I kinda miss that aspect.
And my wife is a beautifulsinger and it's really nice to
make music together.
Well, I hope you keep makingmusic together for a long time.
Thank you.
I'm thankful for the time today.
Me too.
And, uh, yeah, look forward toreconnecting again soon.
Likewise.
Thank you Kurt.
Guys, be Greg.
You too.

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EXPERIENCE 220 | Excellence, Ethics, and Endurance - Triple Crown Leadership and more with Gregg Vanourek, Entrepreneur, Teacher, Author, and TEDx Speaker

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