Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
In this episode of the LocoExperience Podcast, I sat down
with Sean Cadry, the directorand founder of the Center of
Liberation.
Sean shares her diversebackground from being born and
raised in Johannesburg, SouthAfrica to moving to Fort
Collins, Colorado.
Her journey includes richhistory in corporate investment
banking in innovative roles,along with personal experiences
that led her to found her centeraimed at supporting.
(00:24):
Conscious business practices andleadership development.
Sean highlights how shetransitioned from personal
training gyms to a significantrole in one of South Africa's
leading corporate investmentbanks and how she was involved
in transformative projects,particularly in the realms of
cryptocurrency and digitalassets.
Sean also touches on herapproach to understanding and
leveraging future trends like AIand digital currencies.
(00:46):
The conversation also includesShawn's personal life
experiences, including her twonear-death experiences, and how
they help shape her perspectiveon life and work.
She discusses her move toAmerica, driven by an online
romance during Covid, and herobservations on the cultural
differences between the twocountries.
Shawn concludes by offeringadvice for young people
navigating their educational andcareer paths, emphasizing the
(01:08):
importance of following one'spassions and creating value in
their work.
I hope you enjoy this episodewith Sean Cadre.
(01:52):
Welcome back to the LocalExperience Podcast.
I'm here today with Sean CadryCory, and, uh, she is the
director and founder of TheCenter of Liberation, which I
love to hear.
And she's, uh, a businessadvisor and quantum reinvention
strategist.
Yeah.
Well said.
Yeah.
And she's got a fun accentbecause you are from South
(02:14):
Africa.
Yay.
Johannesburg.
Awesome.
Um, let's start out with, uh,Johannesburg.
Yes.
Can we, how, how, how long, uh,has it been since you've lived
in South Africa?
Lived in America or lived in,lived in South Africa.
Oh, I have.
Um, I was born and, and raisedthere.
And so I lived there for 51years before packing up and
(02:35):
heading to Coming here.
Coming here?
Yes.
Oh, really?
So it's all very recent.
So we're your first stop.
You're my first stop.
I've traveled to various partsof the world with thorough,
enjoyed Oh, that's really good.
But America's, yeah, I don'tthink it's too common to pack up
too many times and move countryO once is good for me.
Fair enough, fair enough.
And how did you, how did youland in Fort Collins?
If I may.
(02:55):
Uh, Fort Collins.
So my wife is originallyAmerican.
Okay.
Uh, so Dana, and so we met, um,through Covid.
Okay.
And, uh, a beautiful little unonline romance that translated
into moving continents.
Oh, wow.
So she spent some time with mein South Africa to Henes book.
So she's got a good, good tasteof that for the last, uh, for a
good few years.
And, um, it was time for me tocome and experience to her
(03:17):
country.
Oh, okay.
And, and was she here or did youmove to her?
No, California.
So before we arrived veryintuitively, I just kept saying,
from my perspective, I've neverbeen here.
I never set foot in Colorado.
I'd been to California inAmerica.
I was just intuitively.
It feels like Colorado's gonnabe home.
It just feels like Colorado'sgonna be home.
Okay.
And so when we arrived, we, wespent some time traveling and,
(03:39):
um, came to visit Colorado.
I fell in love.
She fell in love with it.
Yeah.
And, uh, yeah.
Well, Colorado's one thing, butthen tell me more for Collins,
Fort Collins.
Yeah.
How did you, was there a list offinalists in Colorado?
So Dana is a director of, uh,one of the directors at Norco
volleyball.
And so she, she had a, aposition opened up for, for
(04:01):
volleyball directorship.
So, yeah, just so the, the, thejob kind of helped choose the
location, the job to help choosethe location.
Yeah.
And you have a reallyinteresting career in, uh,
finance is a lot of yourbackground, but especially
around like.
Strategy and money systems andkind of the deeper like risk
analysis stuff, it feels like.
Yes, yes.
So, um, before leaving SouthAfrica, I was in the corporate
(04:24):
investment banking, one of theniche corporate investment banks
in, uh, in South Africa, in backon the African continent.
And, uh, very well establishedand well-known and spent, uh,
over a decade, so likecomparable to our JP Morgan or
whatever, all this, we werealways in conversation with JP
Morgan, um, and the, like, someof them portions of assets and
things Yeah.
Understanding, you know, whatthey're doing and what we, what
(04:46):
we should be doing.
And so, yeah, I invested, uh,much of my time in, in the
banking industry and, uh, it'sreally, really fascinating.
And also just to watch really,you know, uh, the, the onset of
something like cryptocurrency,digital assets, uh, for example,
um, you know, and watch how thissort of.
Uh, the landscape of, offinances.
(05:08):
It's not changed altogether, butwhat's coming online and what's
driving it and, uh, yeah.
Yeah, it's really, well, and Idon't know what the clip is, but
Trump has definitely likeincreased Yes.
Like a strategic investment inBitcoins and some other stuff.
And, and, and Trump coins too,right?
Yeah.
Trump coins.
Yeah.
Well, German meme coins.
The meme coins.
The meme coins.
(05:29):
So definitely, so I think you'reseeing that globally as well.
This kind of adoption processnow, which we, we were expecting
when, you know, we sort of firststarted exploring it and so
interesting to see, you know,what happens in America, we know
happens around the world.
And so, you know, having a Trumpadministration promoting and
being on board with thestrategic.
(05:50):
Reserve not just Bitcoin.
Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
Well it kind of acknowledges theThe legitimizes, yeah.
Yeah.
Legitimizes it.
And it's almost like a, like Iwould say the competition for
what is money right now isprobably like, you know, the US
dollar certainly has a place inthat.
Yes.
Bitcoins gold and then probablylike oil or commod energy
(06:11):
resources in general food.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Commodities as well.
But especially like you needenergy to make food.
Absolutely right.
And move it around and stuff.
Yeah.
And I mean, if you just look at,for example, you know.
Who makes up the administrationfrom, you know, you've got
obviously the likes of Musk,who's, uh, originally from South
Africa.
Sure.
In fact, the same school, um,with different years that we
(06:32):
were in.
Oh really?
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I mean, it's all energybased, right?
So Right.
So very strong, um, techorientated, let's say, um,
administration, which isinteresting.
Energy heavy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's all energy, right?
Yeah.
Like data centers cost a fortuneand a gr search or a chat.
GPT search costs a hundred timesas much as a Google one does.
Yeah.
So energy wise, I always say,you know, look where the smart
(06:54):
money's investing or what, what,what are, what's the smart money
doing?
And, uh, follow the smart money.
So I'm, I'm just, I'm curiousand, and you know, again, a
little bit of, you know, who Iam is I'm a bit of a futurist
and forward thinker, so.
I was, you know, dabbling in theworld of Bitcoin and crypto in
2017 when I first got startedand just became really immersed
(07:15):
in it.
We looked at, at providing that,uh, offerings to our clients.
Sure.
So I really kind of got immersedin it.
And you're gonna get expertstatus if you're gonna talk.
Yeah.
Like, what does it mean?
Like what, you know, what isdriving this and, and et cetera.
So it's been very interesting towatch the progression now it's,
that's eight years later andsort of, you know, strategic
reserves and trump coins andmeme coins and Right.
(07:36):
Well, and, and for businessesand industries, whether it's
agriculture or mining orfinance, like what is.
The impact of not just thosedifferent currencies and stuff,
but also technology in general.
How is AI affect the operatingmodel?
Um, how many employees do weneed, uh, if we've got a well
implemented AI policy orDefinitely, yeah.
(07:58):
Big, big, big changes.
And that's one of the, you know,the, the sort of future trends,
which is, it's not even futuretrend.
It's here now.
It's uh, it has alreadydisrupted.
It's already nudging you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not even nudging.
I think if you pounding, if youalready sort of lift the carpet,
I think people would get quitesignificantly shaken if they're
not sort of touching it in someway.
(08:18):
Mm-hmm.
So see the, I wanna say thepower and look, anything that I
comment on, there's alwaysdifferent sides of the story.
Sure.
Uh, which I can appreciate, youknow, when things are, are
taken, anything can be usedincorrectly and you know, so, so
hopefully the likes of air isused, you know, proactively,
but, but in a positive way.
Good for the future of humanity.
Right.
Um, well, and so I guess that'swhere that quantum reinvention
(08:41):
is correct.
Like we're, we're moving intothis quantum world and we
haven't even talked aboutquantum computing yet.
No.
No.
And I'm guessing that'ssomething you're looking into
now.
Yeah.
Starting to sort of, uh, becomemore familiar with it.
But the idea of quantumreinvention strategist, and I
know I often get asked thisquestion, is very much, you
know, with the likes of AI and,um, if you had to look at like
(09:05):
your, the scarce intelligence ofyour, your logical thinking
Sure.
And how that's been disseminatedeffectively into what I call
abundant intelligence.
Because now you've got Sure.
A lot of humanities Yeah.
Intelligences going into adatabase or databases accessible
to all means, you know, whateffectively do you get paid for
going forward?
Yeah.
What effectively, which, youknow.
(09:26):
We, we, we are taken into anorganization or, you know, we
offer services and productsaccording to the scarce
knowledge, the scarceintelligence that we bring and
the service offerings and etcetera.
And so that drives productivitywith that sort of being that,
say, democratized into, uh,right sort of open source.
Uh, you know, that leaves, uh,the, the question like what,
(09:49):
what is now valuable and whatwill I be paid for going
forward?
And a question not, you know,that I, that I, I sit with and
many others, but something thatshould be really considered.
And so, as one of theimplications of, as I say, I'm a
bit of a forward thinking.
So I, I think in paradigms andwhat does this mean in terms of
a new paradigm for me, one ofthe things that, uh, will now
(10:10):
transpire that I think it isdriving is greater levels of
creativity.
And so the quantum is like, howdo you access new information?
How does that come about from myperspective and my beliefs?
It's like you access that fromthe universal source, the energy
around you.
Yeah, yeah.
You know the quantum Yeah.
Some people like you, you don'tthink of ideas, ideas come and
(10:33):
find you kinda Exactly.
Ideas come, come and find you.
And so opening up yourintelligence to new information,
new information is gonna comethrough, um, the energy that
surrounds us, the universe thatsurrounds us.
And so learning how to reallymaster and powerfully create
and, and create, likeconsciously and deliberately
directing your thoughts, uh,hence is the quantum reinvention
(10:55):
and Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and ultimately most thingsthat we really need still
require, you know, energy tomake it happen.
Right?
Absolutely.
Like food building of shelter,uh, entertainment even.
Um, a hundred percent.
So I was, I, I was thinkingearlier that the, I think it was
the cult, uh, uh, pistol, uh,revolver that was called the
(11:17):
Great Equalizer of Ben.
Um, and I wonder is, is AI kindof an equalizer of people or is
it an UNE equalizer moredepending on whether you have
access to it, which I guess waskind of the notion with, with
being able to carry a pistol,but in the wild West, you know,
you either didn't or you did.
(11:38):
Right.
And I guess that's kind of thesame here.
Are you carrying AI around inyour holster or are you not?
And which size is your ai?
Well, of course in South Africawe've got diff different, um,
application.
Certainly your culture isnothing like the same, but, but
similar, similar application.
Uh, our guns is in South Africa,they are illegal.
(12:00):
You can have a, what do you callit?
Hunting, hunting gun orsomething, a certificate or
whatever you call it.
Like, you know, that'sregulated, but, but.
It's not rare.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But there's plenty of guns inSouth Africa, so, um, uh,
they're not legal, but there'splenty of'em anyway.
Exactly.
Fair.
Exactly.
Only the bad guys have gunsthough.
Oh, of course.
Of course.
We'll see.
No, no, no, no, no.
(12:21):
There's, yeah.
No, there's, you, you, sothere's plenty of registered
legal weapons Yeah.
As well.
Yeah.
There's plenty of registeredlegal weapons, but, uh, it's,
uh, common, fair.
Common.
Yeah.
Anyway, I digress.
But to back to the question, isit a, is it a equalizer of men
and women or is it an unequal,this tool?
Um, I think there's going to beversions of both those truths
(12:43):
that play out and, and multipleversions.
Um, because let's say previous,if people have access to the
internet, you can have accessto, to, again, you know,
something like ai, which givesyou access.
You can go and engage and askfor a PhD written paper, right.
Or, or thesis to be written foryour dissertation if you ask the
right question.
So, you know.
(13:04):
That's going to give you so muchmore information.
So AI can give you so much moreinformation That, and
resourcefulness that previouslyI wouldn't have even had to, I
wouldn't have even, even thoughtto.
Sure.
So when I engage in it, youknow, it opens up my own
creative centers, centers in, inthe context of my right brain
because I'm engaging with it.
(13:24):
It is pro sort of provoking and,and providing me with other ways
to think about things in waysthat I just wouldn't have even
thought.
And so then that takes me downanother rabbit hole and I'm
engaging it on in that rabbithole.
And so I'm learning the learningpathway of information that I
wouldn't have even thought toengage in.
(13:46):
I'm now engaging in Yeah.
And getting equipped.
So in that way, um, you know,there's just so much that, that
I can personally do with it.
And then at the same time.
If you don't have access to it,you're disadvantaged.
If you don't, it's like thefinancial system.
Right.
The best you can hope for is tobe the, the brute strength for
somebody that needs human labor.
Exactly.
Almost.
Exactly.
And so and the or.
(14:09):
Yeah.
I suppose I think, or, or Isuppose nurses and things like
that, there's gonna be humantouch type and the human touch
wouldn't of that hard toreplace.
Wouldn't, you know, I'm veryclear that a AI is cept from
human beings first and foremost.
Sure.
So, you know, we created it and,uh, going forward they'll do,
they'll always be the human.
(14:30):
Always, always be the humanperson engaging in ai.
And AI cannot contextually thinkso what it leads to is, okay,
logical left brain solutionorientated.
Anything where patternrecognition can be pretty easily
identified.
'cause it's primarily what, youknow, one of the sources that it
operates on.
(14:51):
Um, what it can't do is.
If you're asking it prompts,it's gonna a, it's gonna answer
in the domains of those prompts,but it can't contextually Yeah.
Bring things together.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
What it stimulates, like when Ido that, oh, you know what this
is like, and it's totallydifferent thing.
Even like the cult versus theai.
A hundred percent.
(15:12):
So it can't, it cant, sorry tointerrupt you.
Yeah, no.
So it can't connect the dots.
So it will help stimulate a lotof new thoughts that then the
human is going to then becollecting the dots of, oh,
okay, this is a potentialsolution.
So I think it's also gonnapromote a lot of solutioning as
opposed to solving problems asse, I mean, it solves problems,
(15:33):
but you start to realize that,oh.
Like, there's just so manysolutions out there.
So many, yeah.
Just opportunities to, well,what's interesting is, you know,
I know there's a lot ofdifferent paid platforms for AI
and stuff, but it, you know, ittakes a lot of energy to spin
all these things and all thesequeries and when you have it
paint you a picture, it's evenmore energy and it's really not
(15:55):
priced at consumption right now.
Like gasoline, we gotta pay pergallon.
Correct.
Ai, you can have that thing bechewing on problems all day long
for no good reason.
A hundred percent if you wantedto.
And it would just be like,you're just burning coal.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you know, it's likeanything, you can go down rabbit
holes and, and again, you know,they're still building it out,
(16:18):
but the rate and pace at whichhas been built, I would say, you
know, um, the idea of artificialsuper intelligence, that's
probably already here.
They're sort of saying in, youknow, two or three years time,
it's probably less because ai.
Doubles its intelligence roughlyevery five to six months.
Okay.
And you can shorten that time.
So I think currently the lasttime I checked these values,
this was the end of last year.
(16:39):
So may well have changed.
Um, the intelligence of, of AIwas at, I think it was like 1
52, which is roughly Elron.
Musk.
Musk, yeah.
Yeah.
I think, um, Albert Einstein isabout 1 65 roughly.
Um, so we would've surpassedthose or started to surpass
those certain, and then, youknow, if you had to think then
that doubles in six months,doubles in six months, doubles
(17:01):
in six months, you know, prettysoon.
800.
We're looking at like athousand, I think it was in end
of 20 26, 20 27.
Oh wow.
That's it.
Like we can't even comprehend.
Yeah.
We can't comprehend thatintelligence.
So it does make you confrontyour own sense of value.
And what, you know, when I lookat this and you know, women's
wealth transfers and there'sdifferent wealth transfers busy
(17:23):
happening.
You're looking at ai, digitalassets.
And so, you know, really workingwith people to say, okay, how do
you position yourselves?
What will be valuable of yourbusiness or what you're offering
in the future and what willbecome available so that you can
obviously capture theopportunities, create more
(17:45):
value, kind of ultimately whatis the new value?
And I think what.
What we're finding in thesystem, what I'm discovering in
the system, and this hasprobably been for the last six
months or so, I say to people,like, the system is stuck
systemically.
So in other words, people arenot wanting to spend money,
they're not sure what directionto go, and they're not sure what
choices to make.
You know, corporates are likegrappling to, you know, what
(18:07):
strategies do we follow?
And then entrepreneurs are, sothey're saying like, I just, I,
I just don't know.
I just don't know.
Like, and like I'm justconfused.
So I Right.
I call it like an if you, Idunno how y'all are swearing on
this channels.
Well, you can, you can see allthe fucking beverage.
Yeah, that's fine.
And fuck your confusion.
So I work with clients to likeback their confusion.
Oh yeah.
'cause there's so much confusionand so much stuckness.
(18:28):
Yeah.
And my dad used to say, uh, Iknow sometimes you don't feel
like you have enough informationto, to make a decision, but make
a decision.
Make a decision.
Yeah.
Do it.
And if you find out it's thewrong decision, then change your
mind.
You know?
Exactly.
Like, don't stand there, go.
You gotta, you can't come upyour butt.
Yeah.
Because, and, and I think what'sdriving that, what I've come to,
to kind of conclude is thatbecause these, these.
(18:49):
Converging trends have alreadyhit multiple of them.
And I'm only talking about threeor four.
Yeah.
But there's multiple energy.
Be one of them.
We've, yeah.
Energy, climate and global, uh,trade.
Hundred percent tariffs.
Yeah.
Trade, trade, yeah.
And I, I've some statistics onhow many ships are like either
coming or going with, you know,one third or one half empty and
things like that.
(19:09):
Yeah.
And that just doesn't happen,right?
No, a hundred percent.
I mean, it's, you know, so theworld is changed and I think for
so many decades we've beentalking around, change is
coming, change is coming, andno, the world has changed.
Like it's changed.
Significantly because of allthese things coming in
converging together at once.
We haven't seen this before.
We've seen one thing and thenanother thing, and you know, the
(19:32):
onset of the internet or theonset of manufacturing or the
information technology, butyou've got these massive mega
trends converging at once.
They've already converged,they've caused change, and now
you're getting like more of themass adoption.
And so where that lands me iswhy the system is stuck and
confused is because we are nowin new realities.
(19:54):
We are now on new paradigm.
We're already on a new reality.
We're already on them.
And so the nature of the first,we need to survey their
landscape a little bit.
Yeah.
So the nature of the problemshave changed, but people and
clients don't know how theirproblems have changed.
Yeah.
And so they're trying to figurethat out and no one's figured
out that the nature of theproblems have changed and
actually.
Well, there's gonna be newproblems.
(20:14):
And in fact, not even problemsbecause problems create
industries.
Well, and y you and I had agreat conversation with, with
someone this morning, wellbefore I arrived here, and he,
he was just saying how it's likethere are, you know, problems
are an illusion created in yourmind if you believe in the
quantum.
And so, you know, it's reallyabout solutions.
And so you can dismantle yourproblems, which are mindset and
(20:37):
a particular context.
And when you're creating an inwith the quantum, you're
collapsing problems and you arecreating Well, but yeah, the
problems kind have to beacknowledged to, to monetize the
solutions though, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Like that's what companies dofor the most part, is, is
monetize a solution forsomebody's problem.
A hundred percent.
And that's why I say one of thebig paradigm shifts that's
(21:00):
already happened is that themore and more people become
conscious, and when you're moreconscious, your ability, I mean.
We could probably ask youraudience and if there was, when
you say conscious Yeah.
What do you mean by that?
Um, just a greater level ofawareness.
So an opening up to greaterlevels of, um, understanding of,
(21:20):
of we are never gonna fullyunderstand the human experience.
Right.
But it's just greater levels ofawareness of your own divine
nature.
And so consciousness of your owndivine true nature expressed
through the human experiences,I'm gonna call it a spiritual
orientation.
Okay.
A level of consciousness.
And then with that variouslevels of awareness.
(21:41):
And so you can be, for example,a classic example was Covid
drove health consciousness.
Oh, sure.
So people have different levelsof awareness now.
Yep, yep.
You know, it drove the greatresignation and in part that was
driven by, because I want agreater sense of purpose and
meaning.
Yeah.
So you can say consciousness insummary is a very easy way of
saying, Hey, I wanna give, youknow, have greater sense purpose
(22:02):
kinda instead of just, uh,non-player character.
They, as they say on theTwitter, actually having
intentional, intentional, um,actions and awareness of
reactions and hundred exactlylike a intentional navigation of
life instead of just, I go towork starting when I'm 20 and
then I retire when I'm 62 and Ihave a few kids and do stuff.
(22:22):
But, and that's the way it isnow.
There's this, you know, if youbelieve your thoughts create
your reality, that's beingconscious.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, and constantly just wakingup, you can call it waking up,
you can call it, oh, I'mbecoming aware of this.
Oh, I'm becoming aware of like,energy.
Right.
Well, and, and what's cool andpartly AI powered is, you know,
anytime I want to, I can pushthe little GR button and be
(22:44):
like, can you tell me moreabout, you know, the war of
1812?
Uh, what are some of thecontroversies around how that
started for specifically ahundred percent.
And I can just know in the, inthe, and I can say, give it to
me in two paragraphs or 10paragraphs or whatever I want.
Now you see, and that, that's agreat example because there, for
(23:04):
example, let's say you wanted totake that really seriously.
You would've gone to, you know,a course university, you know,
sit and listen to someone who'sdisseminating that knowledge.
Sure.
That's why I say the knowledgedissemination just like that is
disseminated.
Right.
Well, and, and like, like I'vebeen thinking about like
business books and like AI hasread every business book ever
(23:27):
written, and for the most part,a lot of them are resonant for
the last 60 years.
You know, there's some new stuffhere and there, you know, it
starts with why, but mostly it'sjust kind of a recycling through
of kind of a lot of the ideaswe've been talking about in the
past and, and freshening of themperhaps.
Um, but there isn't necessarilynew stuff that comes from that
(23:49):
then is it just a dulling downand, and an averaging of ideas,
you know, and is.
Like a really good business bookthat's focused, is that gonna be
better than, um, an AI createdtool on the same specific topic?
I, I don't know.
I'm not sure there is.
Does it get blurry?
You know, does the, does doesthe reality of the AI just get
(24:10):
blurred out or the, the, thebrilliance of the humans?
I would hope that thebrilliance, and again, it's
going to the brilliance of thisis my, what I would hope for,
because like I say, I think it'sgonna really stimulate.
And encourage people to thinknumber one deeply about things.
So there's going, I believe, Ifeel my senses, and again, there
(24:32):
is so much, there is unknown anduncertainty because we haven't
been in this territory.
And if we only just kind ofstepping into new paradigms, we
don't know the paradigms yet.
So there would be a lot ofuncertainty, the ability of
humans to think deeply abouttopics.
And I think you're gonna startseeing what we used to call in
the corporate space, TT type,um, employees and T type
(24:53):
employees.
You had like, um, you know,where the, the T goes across.
You have a more narrowed scopeof in-depth, uh, skillset,
in-depth capability.
So you're very deep into a topicYeah.
As the tea drops down, but youvery narrowed in your sphere of,
of specialization.
(25:13):
So I feel like there's going tobe a more deepening into the
specialization and trulyexploring the truth about a
particular topic or the truthand digging and digging and
digging to expand and grow onit.
And so I think there's, there'sdefinitely opportunity for, I'd
say more, um, you know, forhumans to, to.
(25:34):
To definitely play a part in amore, um, brilliance coming
through.
I think.
And when I say for example,creativity, that's exactly what
I mean, to come into a greatersense of knowing about the truth
of who you are and your ownbrilliance and your ability to
be brilliant should you wish toengage with a tool.
AI is just a tool.
How you drive it, how you shapeit, the questions, there's a
(25:56):
huge, huge Sure.
Uh, impact on, on what it candeliver.
And again, it's never going tobe able to contextually connect
the dots.
It's never gonna be able to havehuman connection.
It's never gonna have a soul orcon it's going to have, and this
is up for discussion, but youknow, versions of consciousness.
And so when, when humans are ina room together and sitting
(26:18):
around having a conversationlike this, like our energies and
our thought waves and ourthought processes are feeding
off each other.
And so it's like escalating.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And multiplies of more people ifit's, and multiply, structured
multiplies effect.
And so I want to challenge thatnotion of.
I've, I've almost been feelinglike, um, corporations have been
(26:40):
looking for increasedspecialization from their
employees, kind of to employeesdetriments.
'cause like even right now, likesoftware engineers, uh, people
that write code and stuff, thelast 10 years have had it going
great'cause they've been insuper high demand, short enough
supply.
We're like trying to open up thevalves from, for Indian
programmers and stuff so we cando this stuff.
(27:02):
And now AI is like a really fastprogrammer and you need
probably, I'm guessing that thejob market is not good.
So now all these people thatspecialize in software
programming are having a hardertime unless they're putting that
tool in the belt.
Um, and, and then what I waslooking on my phone for is a
book I read, uh, listened to acouple years ago, uh, range by
David Epstein.
(27:22):
And it's kind of like whygeneralists, uh, will win in the
future.
And, and, and to your point ofcontext, like.
I wonder if being able to to digdeep enough but then tie those
different quadrants and stufftogether is also still valuable.
I'm not saying it's not, it'snot invaluable.
(27:43):
I think if you're too much of agen generalist, just generally,
yeah, you're good at a lot ofthings and I don't think there's
going to be, um, if you're goodat a lot, a lot of things and
you're wanting to go somewherein life and stuff like that.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, it's gonna be hard.
It's gonna be harder because, oryou gotta start a company.
What's that?
Are you gonna start a company?
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
(28:03):
So, and so I, I think whatyou're saying, you know, would
probably resonate with me isthat you still have to have
enough generalist knowledge toconnect the dots.
You have to, you can't not be, Iwas chatting to a leader the
other day and I was just sayingto her, leaders have gotta take
time.
And entrepreneurs, in fact,every individual needs to take
(28:24):
time to think deeply about.
What my contribution is going tobe in the future.
What will AI not, uh, we call,you know, zap, I don't dunno,
in, in the states, but you know,we'll refer to things being
zapped in, in South Africa.
Mm.
What won't, won't in yourbusiness be zapped?
What, what are the, what are theproblems if you have to really
(28:44):
start thinking about it andthinking about it intelligently
is like, think about what arethe problems that your current
clients, what are they going tohave in five years time?
Sure.
So, good way to think aboutthat.
If I'm talking to a client, Isay to them, okay, tell me who
are your clients in five yearstime?
What's the demographic?
(29:05):
Help me understand that nowthat's level one thinking.
And that would be, you know, Ithink a lot of people are just
doing that.
Piece of exploration.
My clients are X, Y, and Z.
I'm saying, okay, now if youwere talking to Harley a while
back, they'd be like, oh no.
Anyway, um, and then the nextquestion I ask them is say,
okay, if these are your clientsand the demographics and you put
it clear on that, that's great.
(29:26):
And you're, you're now sort ofcatering to their needs and
providing to their needs.
And you, you kind ofstrategizing starting, they're
gonna be exactly, and you, etcetera.
But now I want you to thinkabout this.
So take it a step further.
So if your client's demographicsare this in five years time,
then what is shaping their life?
What are the things that areshaping their life?
What is influencing them?
(29:46):
What are, what's impacting them?
Because you've gotta be able tocontextually think like that and
then start to backward engineerand re-engineer to say, okay.
If these things and AI, such asignificant impact on their life
and the likes of whatever,whether it's digital assets or
whether it's um, you know,digital currencies.
Yeah, digital currencies ortrade tariffs or what.
(30:09):
And some of we don't even know,okay, so now what are you trying
to solve for, for them?
Because you gotta have that leapahead to be able to, to then
backward engineer and then startto design products and services
for that lens.
So it's not, not for me, it'snot enough just to say, my
clients are X, Y, and Z.
You have to start understanding,well what are the things that
are impacting them significantlyin five years time?
(30:32):
'cause that's, if you can setyourself up for that.
And it's not even five years,like I said, artificial
intelligence.
Yeah, I think three yearsintelligence, I was probably
start moving now.
I honestly believe that evennow, if people are not spending
time deeply thinking about itand touching and engaging, you
can't touch and engageeverything but one or two
important of these mega trendsand get familiar to really
(30:52):
understand how they're shaping.
Industries, it's something to,to really pay attention to in
three years time.
If you're waking up, the train'sgone.
You've already missed thetrain's gone.
Yeah.
It's like now it's, you gotta beengaging.
Now, um, I wanted to zoom backto, uh, let's just talk about
(31:14):
like maybe the, maybe we havebeen talking about what you're
doing at the Center ofLiberation.
Mm mm Or is that kind of alittle adjacent, or is that
specifically a focusedorganization?
I, you know, if I was a goodpodcaster, I would've went into
your website and snooped it out,read your mission statement and
stuff.
But I like going in fresh.
Tell me about that.
Get, get, get it, get itstraight from the horse's mouth.
(31:35):
Exactly.
Say, I like the way you, I Ilike you the way you roll.
I don't wanna corrupt myconversation with prior
knowledge.
Come on.
No, no.
So Center of Liberation is whatI believe firmly is around
liberating, um, very much heartled, heart centered
organizations, leaders into thenew era with very practical
(31:55):
delivery.
Okay.
So this is not about, uh, justall woo woo and, uh, all this is
a kind of those consciouspeople.
Conscious, yeah.
If you're one of those consciousand increasingly conscious
people and you're leadingpeople, you, you're wanting
something different, you, youhave a sense that, that things
need to change.
You have a sense that you wouldlike things to change in the
context of how life has beenexperienced.
(32:17):
And so what is that sort of neworganization or, or you leading
a team, you're an entrepreneurand you've got a team and you
know, how do you kind of setthat up and heart led living?
Heart base living is one of the,the, you know, subsequent.
Principles, if you'll, ofprinciples of, uh, becoming more
conscious, just becoming moreopen-hearted, becoming like
(32:38):
kinder, more generous, morecooperative, um, more
synchronistic, more expansive,not just for one, but for the
all.
So I think, you know, for, forpeople that resonate with the
sort of concept of tired ofcompetition, tired of the
individualism, tired of the, theseparation and the fear and, and
(32:59):
how do we create ecosystems?
You're seeing ecosystems pop upall over the place, but how you
really create ecosystems wheremost benefit and not just one or
a few.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, um, and then how do youreally set yourself?
So center of liberation isliberating the next.
Era of, or not even the era'cause it's now, but it's the
next category of leadership andthe next category of businesses.
(33:21):
And how do you set yourbusinesses up to remain fruit
fruitful, expansive, um,profitable, importantly, and not
just for you, but for your, youknow, your staff, your
employees, your, your business.
Because things are have changedso quickly.
And where do those profitabilitypools sit whilst doing it at a
conscious level, whilst bringingin more creativity?
(33:43):
How do you unlock creativity?
How do you actually become aleadership team who is ready to
be leading edge, to create yourrealities at the executive table
and very much liberate, um, youknow, prosperity and abundance,
uh, which sits at the heart of,for me, um, with something like
ai, human beings will beconfronted with their value.
(34:05):
Yeah.
Is it gonna make us.
R richer, happier, and betterconnected?
Or is it gonna separate usfurther?
Yeah, and I think, and I thinkthere's an opportunity for the
former, for sure, a hundredpercent.
And I think, I think the biggesthuman travesty is that so many
people undervalue themselves andtheir skills and their abilities
and dunno how to monetize it or,you know, if I lose my job or if
(34:28):
it's this.
And so, you know, this processof fear based, uh, based, fear
based.
And so, you know, and that'sjust rubbish.
It's like, but at the same time,you will never be wealthy,
prosperous, abundance if you'vebought into the scar of tea and
the fear.
Um, and the separation becauseif you're not wealthy within,
you cannot hold the next levelof wealth that's coming in
(34:50):
whatever way, shape or form.
And, and so, so I guess this iskind of your, you escape from
corporate banking realm andyou're, you're starting a
movement, if you will, and thisis a training center grounds
consultancy for that movement.
Is that the right way tounderstand it?
There's a movement on the cardsand I've got some exciting
prospects coming through, uh,probably in the new year or
(35:12):
towards the end of the year,which, um, I won't share just
yet.
But a very, very exciting to dowith the wealth transfer, the
women's wealth transfer and theevents while, yeah, I wrote that
down to talk about comingthrough.
Talk about the women's wealthtransfer.
That's kind of because.
The, the world has changed and,and the boomers are gonna die
and, uh, their, their livingkids are ladies.
(35:34):
Is that kind of what's going on?
Or what, what are we talkingabout here?
Or just the fact that women areearning so much and being
college graduates and, yeah.
So all that, so much more, yeah,changing names.
Think about it like this, and I,I heard a great analogy and
unfortunately I can't rememberthe, the person, so this is not,
not originally from me and I'mgonna try and summarize as best
I can.
Um, but think about it like a, abird and just like a bird has
(35:57):
got, you know, two wings andwhen it's functioning
beautifully, the wings are bothworking and, and balancing the
bird and, you know, flapping, etcetera.
Yeah.
It just works.
We're exposed to, at the moment,the, and I don't, it's not about
being, um, man or woman.
Well, I talk masculine andfeminine energies.
So energetically, the masculineis very, so the left wing is
very well established, logical,left brain, um, analytical, that
(36:22):
sort of masculine sort of, um,containers and structures and
infrastructure and, um, thosekind of things is like the
masculine energy, the feminineenergy, the wisdom, energy, the
intuitive energy, the, thedownloads, the intuits, the
nudges, the synchronistic that'snot well developed.
So the bird is flying, but it'sflying with an underdeveloped
(36:44):
right wing.
And so if you think about it,all that's happening now is an
equalization of the wing so itcan fly better.
And that's humanity.
That the, there's an eequalization of the masculine
and feminine energy.
So one of the things, thenatural evolutions is the, you
know, obviously with a lot morewomen getting to different
levels and organizations anddifferent levels of education
(37:05):
and all of that kind of stuff.
Um.
There, there will be a 30trillion wealth transfer over
the next decade.
It's already started, but it's,you know, small, small numbers.
Sure.
So$30 trillion heading into thehands of women.
So for the first time in humanhistory, women's will, not all
women.
'cause there's, uh, you know,there's a lot to this, I'm
giving sure I'm giving the cliffnotes, but, um, women have have
(37:27):
the opportunity to hold morepersonal income than males in
some instances.
Then there is another wealthtransfer to, because baby
boomers are, are, are passing.
And so where does thatinheritance go?
You know, to, to the, obviouslytheir kids and that kind of
stuff.
They're living kids.
Uh, and then you're looking at,and ladies live longer, tend to
millennials as well, who just,you know, they, they passed the
(37:48):
stage now of paying off, uh,debt or, you know, some of them
are still paying off homes, butyour education, so they're
coming into more wealth.
So, but this woman's wealthtransfer is, is a really big
deal because when there's morepower, there's more, uh, sorry.
When there's more, more moneyfor someone, there's a.
There's this reshaping of thepower structures, and it doesn't
(38:09):
have to be negative.
It's not about somethingnegative and conflictual and
whatever.
It just means that you don'thave to beat the men down to
establish equality.
You don't.
It's about beating men.
It's just that women makedecisions differently.
We operate differently.
So the way that we are spendinghabits are different.
Where we spend is different.
What we think about isdifferent.
And so there will be certainindustries that benefit more
(38:30):
than others.
So for example, you know, healthindustries, women are super,
not, not to say men aren't, butlike there's just a lot of
beneficiaries in the healthindustry.
For example, the financialindustry will benefit
significantly.
You know, you'll have more womensort of taking ownership of, um,
how decisions, financialdecisions are made, where
typically, like it's just beenleft to the, the guy, the male,
(38:51):
to like figure things out.
It's just like there's a lot of,um, unconscious biases, um,
associated with it.
So, you know.
Coming from South Africa andseeing my wife takes care of all
the money.
I Well, good for, good for you.
Yeah.
Best I can.
Yeah.
Well, she spends most of it too.
Does a good job of both.
Just kidding.
Exactly.
Um, but I don't know.
I, I'm not, I'm, yes, I thinkthat's true, that there's
(39:16):
definitely more personal incomebeing generated by women and
there's definitely more singlehouseholds.
Yes.
You know, there's, there's, andI'm not sure that's for the good
of humanity necessarily.
I almost think of, of a,without, you know, insulting
your relationship or anybodyelse's.
Like a bird is kind of a man anda woman together and that's why
they fly.
Good.
(39:36):
And if you can have those.
Powers and wings, uh, relativelyequal, but the household still
needs a leader.
And I think that tends to bebetter when it's the man.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and we can argue about that.
Uh, that might be fine.
Yeah, that good argue.
Um, but I look at it more of a,as a, as a, as a whole being
when it's united, uh, kind ofrealm.
(39:56):
And even if it's a pair ofladies or a pair of men, even
for that matter, a hundredpercent.
Um, like people are just notgood at being alone as a
household, especially, you know,for years.
Yeah, no, it is about United andthat's why I say it's, it's a
masculine and feminine energy.
It's the yin and yang andbringing that together and
whatever the actual structurelooks like.
(40:17):
Um, but bringing those energies,like where are your brilliant
strengths?
And you just go and do it.
And if your wife's doing the,the finances, I love it.
But like that's her natural andcoming together until you're
going, you know, being able tounify more harmoniously in, in,
in those dimensions is reallyYeah.
Fair.
Really the opportunity.
Well, that's why, uh, at Locohere, we've been studying for
(40:38):
years now, this, uh, hallowrelational intelligence.
Uh, it's a Brazilian platformthat is like disc, but way
better.
I love it.
And, uh, and it really helpsdifferent types of thinkers
understand and respect oneanother and, and kind of relate
better.
And, uh, appreciate thedifferentness.
Definitely, definitely.
Um, and that can happen, youknow, I think both with
(40:58):
masculine feminine in and alsowith that details versus ideas
and all that kind of stuff.
Definitely.
One thing about the, uh, women'swealth transfer thing is when
you, you know, when you look ata list of the world's 50 richest
people, you know, it'sdefinitely dominated by, by men.
And when there's women on there,which we have one in Fort
(41:20):
Collins here with in PatStryker, almost always they
inherited it or got it in adivorce.
There haven't been very manywomen that created huge wealth
over the course of history.
Mm-hmm.
And I wonder, is that because ofthe less competitiveness, like
men wanna win by creating thebiggest pile of money?
(41:41):
Mm.
Or is it some, you know, is itjust that men have always
controlled more of the wealth?
Mm.
And so they've had moreopportunities to create wealth.
I, I wonder because some ofthose men came from no money
either.
Right?
A lot of'em.
Mm.
Even.
I think it's a function andthere's so many different ways.
So I'm gonna give again just aperspective, but there's many
perspectives that would, wouldbuild this story and narrative
(42:03):
and, and you know, everybody'sgonna have a different
perspective.
But if you historically look atit, and I think it was, it was
here only in 1974, I thinkcould, a woman could get a, a
credit card or checkbook.
I can't remember the exactstats.
I'm not as familiar, uh,currently with, with America's
history as I am with SouthAfrica's.
But even in South Africa, it'slike way back.
(42:25):
I don't know.
You know, my mom couldn't like,get a a, she wouldn't be able to
get a bond or a mortgage on herown.
Hmm.
And so just, and then if youthink about, you know, typically
just the, the bias towards it.
Say, you know, I look at my, myparents, how many.
How many more opportunities werelike male doctors or, you know,
professors or the systemsystemically was just set up
(42:49):
that Sure.
Generally, males got into theheight.
The country club was the countryclub club.
Boys, boys only for a long time.
Boys only club.
The golf clubs boys only, youknow, it was just set up that,
that, you know, historicallythere were just sort of, uh, I
wanna say advantages to beingmale in the context of what was
available.
And so, so, you know, that's, Iwonder, I wonder how that'll
(43:11):
play out.
Like, even as women havegathered, I feel like maybe it's
good for men to, to push upagainst each other and sharpen
each other even out, you know,while in leadership of their
households.
I don't know.
Mm.
Um, we'll see, we'll see howthat plays out, but I'm not.
Certain it's gonna be for thebetter.
Um, not because men are smarterthan women necessarily, but we
(43:34):
are less moved by emotion.
You are definitely.
Um, and you know, so I think notto get, like we've been in a
world of propaganda the last,uh, well OB observably for the
last several years, you know?
Yeah.
At least starting in 2020.
And the malleability of feelingswhen confronted with propaganda
(43:55):
makes me fear for a world wherewomen actually control too many
of the, the resources in thecompanies and the households.
I don't know.
Uh, especially if there's agovernment full of no good,
which seems like most of themare, uh, at least to some
extent.
And I think there's, I thinkit's just integration.
You know, how does one get thenatural integration of, uh,
(44:16):
energies, of dynamics ofdecision making and have that
integrated, you talk aboutunity, like that integrated
whole, right?
Yeah.
That considers the all, andthat's, that's not to say that
it's just women, or it's justmen.
The world's gonna operate bestwhen these worlds are
integrated.
When they together.
I was just thinking about like aAI that's made for marriage
(44:37):
counseling and you know, that,that, like my wife could talk
to, you know, after she wasannoyed with me because I, you
know, drank too much and snoredand kept her awake half the
night or something like that.
And like that, she could talk tothat AI and it could talk to us
and we could be like, well, heyKurt, you know, maybe you
should.
Take Jill, uh, for lunch onWednesday because she doesn't
(44:59):
have anything going on that dayand she would really appreciate
a little surprise date.
Well, you can go or whatever,right?
Or Absolutely.
I mean, you can, you don't evenhave to, it's not even, you
know, virtual assistance or, uh,so you can have it in your car
giving you a bit of a counselingsession Sure.
As you going on your next drive.
And, and it'll give, I'm sure,give you a lot of, uh, uh, but
(45:19):
AI would struggle with context.
It struggles with context,right.
It's only gonna ever gonna be,it's, I think I just keep saying
to people, it's only a tool.
It's only a tool.
The original inception, theoriginal idea is the way that
you prompted, the way that youengage with it is so, so well in
a really good therapist orcounselor has been through some
stuff, or at least they canactually empathize, not just
(45:39):
like.
Read a bunch of books aboutempathy, a hundred percent.
Like you and I are sitting heretogether, we can see each other
where there's body language,there's movement, there's like
a, there's an intuiting.
There's a sense making youwitnessing and, and you know,
AI's just never going to get,never gonna do that.
It's never gonnayeahinteresting.
Uh, so what would you like tosee develop out of the center
for of Liberation?
(46:01):
Mm, so definitely just a more,uh, you know, I'll call it a
more conscious movement in, inthe orientation of business and
leadership and, um, how do wemove forward in, into a world
that is more generally morecaring, um, and more like
enhancing and uplifting.
(46:22):
I think it always surprised me,um, and sustainability.
When I say sustainability beforeI go into what surprised me,
there's many things thatsurprise me.
But, uh, you know, I think thesustainability people are so
fearful and I.
Around their wellbeing, theirfinances, will they be all
(46:42):
right?
Like, I think there's such a,there's such a fear around like
not having, and so creatingopportunities where businesses
continue to thrive and don't getscared.
This is not about don't, don'tcollapse, don't give up, don't
shut down.
But you have to be on top ofwhat now adds value and
continues to create value.
And, and that's going to be afiguring out for all of us.
(47:03):
So really sense of liberation isabout supporting entrepreneurs
or supporting businesses to makesense of the current world and
then to reinvent and to becomfortable, to continuously
reinvent, to be creating valuefor others and to staying,
staying on top of it.
And I think, you know, one ofthe things that would surprise
me when I was sitting around theleadership tables and executive
(47:24):
tables is always like found itsurprising that we would always
be hitting numbers and targetsand plenty, plenty of billions
of dollars, you know, revenue orprofit.
And at nearly the end of everyconversation or after the, the
financial feedback was like,okay, but now we've got
headwinds and so where are wegonna cut costs?
(47:46):
And who are we gonna cut andwhere can we see, you know,
there's this conversation ofmindset.
On the one hand you like,there's, but then right in the
next sentence it's like, wheredo we cut?
And there's not enough andthere's not enough.
And like it's headwinds andit's, those worlds don't come
together.
And so you know that people canactually just thrive and to
dismantle the scarcity and beproactive in terms of
(48:09):
sustainability.
Sustaining your businesses,sustaining your profitability,
profitability pools, thinkingsmartly and cleverly to be able
to set up, have more time.
Uh, uh, I wanna say with moreease.
There's just so much like.
Constriction and fear andrushing and busy and like
hustling and, you know, yeah.
(48:30):
The American experienceespecially, I don't know if, oh
no.
Johannesburg full on.
Also the same, full on all, youknow, all night, you email
whatever, emailing, getting upearly, it's just like, whew.
So Steady hustle.
Whew.
So, so Center of Liberation isjust like liberating, more
freedom and ease in the way thatwe do business sustainability
and, and supporting individuals,small businesses, you know,
(48:52):
leadership teams to grow, beless fearful, and to, to really
like, make sense of, of what'shappening and how they set
themselves.
And is this a, a, a solo.
Practice right now.
And do you have imaginations ofadding more people to it or is
there more, more of you outthere in the center?
Is it a, is it a digital centerwith multiple people in there?
Um, it'll become more digitaland like I say, I've got a, a
(49:15):
couple of great prospects on thehorizon to cr to expand it quite
significantly.
Okay.
Um, and so really hoping to, tohave a, and kind of a bit of a
formalized offering kind of, uh,yeah.
I'm, if you, I'm working with,with, with individuals and some,
and, you know, clients still inSouthco and across the globe
leaders and stuff like that.
So I've got like, uh, you know,always looking to expand and
(49:36):
especially since I've arrivedhere and sort of really accepted
the business.
So, um, it's been going for thelast year and a half since I
arrived here.
Yeah.
But definitely, you know, I'vegot, got plans to expand it and
to bring more people on and thento create more of like both
figuratively and literally likea center where we will, we will
work.
(49:56):
In different realms and withdifferent levels of, let's say
leadership development,leadership capability.
Um, you know, I run variouscourses and programs in person
boot camps, different things.
Yeah.
And just, just online as well.
But they're mostly like, youknow, I do a lot of strategy
work for, for both entrepreneursand businesses and leaders.
(50:16):
Um, and then bring in and blendin, well how do you move the
culture?
How, you know, how do you, howdo you evolve the culture in
order to make sure that you're,you're marrying up those worlds,
uh, to deliver value.
Okay.
Yeah.
Um, I wanna call a quick break.
Yes.
And then we will come back andtalk more about South Africa,
where you've been Yeah.
F fantastic.
Your life journey.
(50:37):
Amazing.
Alright.
(51:32):
And we're back.
So how'd you enjoy that bathroombreak?
So good.
Your bathroom is fuckingamazing.
Thank you.
It's pretty clean.
You know that, that's a great, Itrying to, especially the way
that, that that flashes, well,the handle fell off the other
day and when I put it backtogether, I couldn't figure out
how to make the flesher goright.
But I figured out how to make itgo backwards.
So I was like, well, could,well, there you, you go.
(51:53):
You see how I mean, and mostpeople figure it out.
We haven't even had anyquestions.
No.
It's like, okay, well, that thisway's not working.
It's gotta be another way.
Yeah.
Like you need a, you know, youneed to Perfect.
Put a little signpost there.
You know, when you come into adoor, it says push or pull, just
in, uh, arches National Park,uh, there's a sign in the, in
the restrooms there that says,like, uh, number one, sit on the
(52:17):
toilet to use Ah, uh, which I, Iread this sign while I was
standing in front of the toilet.
'cause that's where the sign is.
And then, uh, do not stand onthe toilet.
Um, uh.
Uh, use the toilet, not thefloor.
It was all these like dumbrules.
Oh.
Anyway, I digress.
Yeah, I thought it was one ofthose, uh, okay.
(52:40):
This is one of those trickthings and he's, he's
deliberately let me go first.
'cause now he's enjoying like,me trying to figure out that of
flesh.
Yeah.
Even I'll watch the footagelater.
It's really fun.
Just kidding.
No footage in there.
Um, so I've been, one of thereasons I wanted to have you on
is because, like I've beeninterested in South Africa for a
(53:01):
long time.
Yes.
And I mentioned when we hadcoffee that my, my, my brother
actually employs three Yes.
Young men from South Africa onhis farm, or my dad and brother
do, I guess.
Um, and so.
You're not probably as old as Iam, but you're, you're getting
up there.
So probably were very close.
Take me back to the, the, yourearliest days, uh, of your 50
(53:21):
several in, in South Africa.
Like what was your familyenvironment?
What, what was, did you havesiblings?
What were your parents doing forwork?
Like, take me to first grade oryou're equivalent and Wow, I
love it.
Yeah.
It would be first grade.
So we go to, back then we wentto school at, uh, six and, uh,
six years old.
Okay.
Six years old now.
I think kids are going, you getpreschool.
(53:42):
I don't know what it is here,but it's like three or four
people already, uh, sendingtheir kids to some kind of, um,
yeah, some kind of organizedactivities.
So yeah.
Thank you so much.
And, uh, the real trip downmemory lane.
So great to, great to devil intothe space.
Um.
Parents, teachers, dad was aheadmaster.
Is they're both still alive.
They live in a, in a headmaster.
So like a private schoolsetting?
(54:03):
Private school.
Okay.
Well back out.
Our education system changed,uh, quite a lot once Mandela was
released, so.
Okay.
Um, so it was public school andpublic schooling back then was
really.
Like private schooling.
So he was a headmaster atschool.
Okay.
And, uh, mom was a teacher, priuh, primary school teacher.
(54:25):
Okay.
Um, and yeah, my early days itwas, it was really interesting.
I mean, just you No siblings.
Two older sisters.
Okay.
They both live in Australia.
Very common for South Africansto, uh, is it to, to, they talk
kind of funny over there too, soit's easier.
Yeah.
Well, and to, to leave.
So it's, but Australia's got alot of South Africans.
Oh, I wouldn't have known that.
Yeah.
(54:45):
Lots, lots and lots of s So yoursiblings have, have moved on.
So my siblings live there.
My eldest sister's been therefor I maybe 30 years.
My middle sister, I'm theyoungest of three, uh, probably
about 10 or 12 years.
Okay.
So, um.
So my, my three sisters, I wasthe youngest one.
You were in Johannesburg, whichis in Johannesburg, big city
already back then, I guess.
(55:06):
Or how, how big a city is it?
So, sure.
Johannesburg, you know, southAfrican fit, I think can fit in
California.
I'll just say that America islike huge, right?
I strongly recommend foranybody, uh, yeah, it's an
adventure.
Number one.
Just, you know, go to SouthKorea, but secondly move
countries.
It's, uh, a significant, uh,yeah.
Uh, transformative experience.
(55:28):
Um, but Johannesburg isprobably, um, it's probably like
a Denver Okay.
Sort of, you know, bit bigger,bigger than Denver.
Over a million with the wholething.
Yeah.
Plenty.
Plenty.
Yeah.
Well over a million people.
Okay.
Um, and so you're looking at,um.
Sure.
(55:48):
It was like, you know, I justremember being sort of super
free.
I was always on my bicycle ordoing something with friends.
Okay.
So kind free, free range.
Free range kids in those days,free range kids.
And, you know, I was too youngto really know too much or
understand too much aboutapartheid.
Like I just, like, I knew ofthis thing, but it wasn't really
super impactful.
(56:09):
Like when you say public school,was it like public school for
everybody?
As long as you're white, kindof, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So, so what it looked like wasapartheid was like you, you
would have, well, uh, we callthem house managers, house
workers.
So similar to you guys.
Clean your house cleaners here.
(56:30):
Sure.
So that was really like my onlyinteraction.
We had this house cleaner andher name was Andika.
Absolutely loved her.
She brought me up, you know, myfolks were aren't teaching.
Yeah.
Part of your family.
Part of my family.
And she.
Um, and so that was, it remainedsuper common, but yeah, like in,
like it wasn't, you didn't,there were no black people, the
first black person to come intoour school.
(56:50):
My high school was, I was 13 or14, but I didn't really know any
different, you know, it was justlike, that's just the way it
was.
Were they not like mixing on thestreets of Johannesburg and
stuff and delivering the Theywere absolutely the stuff to the
grocery stores.
Absolutely.
Andies and whatever.
Yeah.
So, but it was just like, um, itwasn't a big presence in those
(57:13):
days.
They had to have what theycalled, it's almost like a, you
know, your vaccine booklet, but,uh, I can't remember.
Like a pass almost some sorts.
Yeah.
So they had to live in certainareas and had Oh, to kind of be
in the white man areas.
You had to kinda Interesting.
So, so there was a lot ofsegregation like that, which
again, I didn't understand as akid.
And so they weren't at when Iwas in primary school.
And like, I only in my secondyear at high school did we have
(57:36):
our first black person comingin, and then they.
When Manta came out, um, gotreleased from prison, obviously
so much changed.
So the whole, the whole systemdid changed.
Did he get swept into poweralmost immediately or the
release almost immediate.
Some prison was almost anacknowledgement that things were
gonna change now or, yeah, and Imean, that was very And when was
this?
It's been, been in, I rememberit, but yeah, 94 he was actually
(57:56):
released, but there was asignificant buildup.
So the tensions in the countryprior to his release were, were
like significant, obviously theuprisings and um, you know, sort
of really wanting a sense offreedom, his release, but black
people wanting a sense offreedom and, and just for things
to change.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, the government waschanging and so there was a lot
of, um, sort of, uh, whichwasn't very public.
(58:20):
Now, again, going back then in94 I was when he was actually
released.
But the buildup, you know, I wasgoing through 16, 17, 18.
Sure.
Okay.
Years old.
So I was understanding it.
But it was a lot to try andcomprehend what was actually
going on.
But there was a lot of tension.
There was a lot of likeconflict.
There was a lot, there was bigconcern about civil war.
(58:42):
And you know, I remember myyounger years, like I said, was
playing on the road, riding mybike, being amongst people.
But there's always, there'slike, be careful, be careful.
There was a lot of anger in thesystem.
Mm-hmm.
And understandably.
Um, you know, and over the yearsthere were just more bars and
more walls being put up and moresecurity being put put up.
And more concern for, um, forone's safety.
(59:04):
Safety, especially for by lady,the uprising of, of anger and
frustration and, you know, I canunderstand that and wanting
change.
And so, you know, just prior to,to Mandela being released, it
had significantly escalated.
You know, it was, there was alot of violence and a lot of,
yeah.
Uh, it was uncomfortable.
I remember, I don't know, Iwonder if this is, if this is
(59:26):
accurate, but I remember beingreally swayed by Mandela's.
Talks and position and values.
Hmm.
And, and even as he tried tomake reforms after a release and
stuff, it was very positive.
And then it felt to me as anoutsider looking in that he got
influenced by power and kind ofcorrupted by Marxism kind of
tendencies and things, andreally kind of let it go
(59:49):
sideways after.
Not'cause he was the ruler ofthe country after not too long
Right after that, or many yearslater.
Yeah.
No, no, no.
But it felt like, he felt likehe started strong and then like
a lot of people when they go toWashington, DC turned into a,
you know, a government stoogeagain, that was, you know,
hooking up the insiders andpunishing the outsiders.
(01:00:09):
Yeah.
You know, I think, I think his,his leadership, uh, was for me
very.
A lot of positives.
There was a lot, a lot ofpositives for me.
I feel like the country,unfortunately, for me
personally, I feel like theleader subsequent to, to Mandel,
it was later he did a good job.
But he was, I feel like he did agreat job.
(01:00:29):
His leadership was, was as to asfar an extent that he could do,
you know, obviously he would'vebeen hard to change a big
system.
Yeah.
Super.
There was so much to fix, likeTrump in his first term, so much
to fix, you know?
Yeah.
And, and just to calm thecountry.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Like he did a phenomenal jobjust to, to calm the country and
what he did to prevent, youknow, sort of civil war and
(01:00:51):
civil outbreaks because, youknow, black people were super
angry and, and you know, it'ssad because these systems are
implemented and, you know, I'mcoming up as a 17, 18,
19-year-old.
I had no choice in terms ofRight.
The system did the educationthat you got versus somebody
else.
So angry with me personally, youknow?
Sure.
And um, uh, and so I feel like,you know.
(01:01:15):
There was so much, and thisagain is only my personal
perspective and, and I can onlygive my personal perspective.
It's complex, very complextopic.
Um, but there was so muchpossibility.
And, and I do feel there was a,a good period of, um, 6, 7, 8
years where it was very upbeat.
And even on the, I think on theworld stage, you know, it was
(01:01:35):
very promising.
And unfortunately as he got onin years, and I would say, you
know, unfortunate for me theexperience of the next level of
leaders coming in, that's wherea lot of corruption started
coming in.
And that was noticeable and, anddevastating.
I mean, is the devastating forthe country is the average black
(01:01:56):
person better off now than theywere PREA apartheid?
Mm.
'cause the economy in SouthAfrica has kind of had a steady
decline over the last Yeah, it'sbeen tough decade or 15 years.
It's um, I think so muchmismanaged funds.
And, you know, there's so muchcultural influence.
I think there's, you know, we'vegot like 11 languages.
(01:02:18):
I can't even speak.
Oh, really?
Can speak.
I can speak English obviously.
And, and, uh, I can understandAfrikaans and speak.
Are you speak English?
Yeah.
Imagine that.
Yeah.
Tell me what Ahan sounds like.
It's kind the key Afrikaanspart.
Uh, may, it's been so long now,I haven't been around Africans
for so long, so, and that's likeDutch who can't, it's a bit of a
mix like on Dutch.
Yeah.
A bit of a twitch twist on Dutchand a bit of, we've got quite a
(01:02:40):
lot of Dutch influence.
Yeah.
I thought so.
Okay.
Yeah.
Oh yeah, definitely.
Sounds Dutch.
Kind of my ear.
And I don't, I don't have avery, I've got more of like a
softer, um, eng Englishorientated accent, so I can't
always get into the Yeah, fairenough.
So, um, you know, it's very,very multi multicultural and
(01:03:04):
very strong and steeped in, andthe different cultures, even
amongst the black, uh, peoplehave very different ways of
operating.
So I was listening to a podcastabout that.
Mm.
Uh, a while back actually.
Mm.
And there was like, uh, anindigenous tribe.
South Africa wasn't very heavilypopulated when the white people
got there.
Yeah, no, there was a little bitof tribal activity.
(01:03:25):
Yes.
But it wasn't like the big, um,Congolese tribes and the Zulus
and some of the others, but thensome of the northern tribes like
pushed down and the founding ofthe country really.
Kind of solidified when the, thewhites and some of the
indigenous blacks pushed backagainst the tribal blacks.
Yes.
Yeah.
Uh, more, which I had no ideathat story was part of the
founding.
(01:03:45):
Yeah.
So very, I mean, it's rich,rich, rich with, uh, with story
and heritage and history and,um, like to so many different
dimensions and facets to it.
So, um, you know, when you askthe question, what do I think
are, you know, the economy'sunfortunately declined.
It's, has been, um, I think justso much unfortunate,
(01:04:09):
unfortunate, um, you know,corruption of funds and misuse
of funds.
Uh, we sit, I think when I leftwe were sitting with an
unemployment rate of about 40%.
40.
Yeah.
So, wow.
Huge.
You know, and it's, andunfortunately, you know, for me,
I feel like the blackpopulation, uh, did not benefit.
(01:04:30):
You know, small pockets ofpopulations, some of them, the
corrupted ones.
Yeah, some.
Some of them definitely.
And you know, obviously you hada lot of, we had various systems
put in place a.
B.
E.
E Broadbased Black economicEmpowerment was a government
driven system.
Mm-hmm.
So, so black people came intoorganizations and a lot of
effort and money went intoobviously education and,'cause
(01:04:51):
that's at the heart of it is theSure.
The lack of education.
Yeah.
How can you ask somebody to stepup and be a leader of a company?
So, a hundred percent.
So for so many years, years,black people had didn't have
access to high quality educationor no education.
And so, you know, that takesdecades to unwind.
Yeah.
And our education system for me,you know, we, we obviously the
(01:05:12):
school system changed and therewere a lot of private schools,
but now you still got inequalityin the context of like wealth
and being able to attend schoolsand, you know, you've obviously
got, got people going throughuniversities at different levels
and so definitely, yeah.
You know, a lot more, um,equalization of blacks coming
into companies and then buildingup and Yeah.
You know, and there's been a lotof success stories as well, a
(01:05:33):
lot of success stories and incrlike, I mean, my colleagues, I
just love the stories.
Oh my gosh.
The stories of, of some of myco, plenty of my colleagues were
just like.
Wow.
What you had to go through toget here.
You just, just, and you'retalking about your colleagues at
the bank.
Yeah, my colleagues at, at thebank.
People like pushed through.
Yeah.
And story after story and afterstory.
And just the spirit of like, youknow, so many things would just,
(01:05:57):
would take for granted, youknow?
Sure.
I, to every now and again, walkto school and, and, you know,
walk up the road and walk downthe road.
But like, you know, and theseguys at, at the young, young
ages, they were walking likemiles just to get to school
miles and no shoes and hardlyany lunch.
And they would be up on the, thefarms like farming first and
they had their chores to do andthen walk miles and miles.
(01:06:19):
But I'm talking like two hoursto get to school, two hours to
get back.
And then they look after theirbrothers and sisters, right.
Because they, you know, theirparents had come to Johannesburg
16 hour days, uh, seven days aweek kind of thing.
Incredible.
And incredible stories.
Incredible stories.
So, um, you know, so much good,like, so, so much good.
Like, I mean, I'm, I, thepeople, it's very real.
(01:06:41):
Culture.
It's a very real, yeah, peopleare very real.
Like we've, we've been through alot as a, you know, as a nation
Yeah.
As a country.
And is there a unitedindividuals nation feeling they,
can they be it better?
Like right now in the UnitedStates, we're like kind of
divided as much as I've seen ina lot of ways between the, you
know, Trump's great Trump'sHitler camps, um, uh, you know,
(01:07:06):
with a few Inbetweeners andthey're not sure.
Yeah.
Uh, and, uh, but is it that, uh,vivid of a, uh, is, is there
still headbutting between theblack communities and the white
communities, or there's a lotmore relationships than one
would think and they're more forSouth Africa?
Or where, where is that settingnow?
I know you've been gone now acouple years.
(01:07:27):
I don't know.
Yeah, yeah.
So, so I think, you know,obviously I think, and Covid
might have been tougher.
Right.
'cause I remember South Africagot kind of thrown under the bus
for some stuff early.
I think we get thrown out.
I think we, we get thrown underthe bus.
I don't remember what that wasof context, but I remember they
got screwed by the internationalkind of scene there.
Yeah.
All the, the variations camefrom Oh, the varis.
Yeah.
'cause you guys were, varis camefrom not vaccinated enough or
(01:07:49):
something.
We, we, we sit somewhere in thecorner of the world and the
variants come.
Um, you know, I think, uh, Iwould say it ebbs and flows and,
um, I would say.
The majority of people, black,white, Indian, doesn't really
(01:08:10):
matter matter what, what colorthey want piece.
They want a break.
So for 80% of people, they don'tcare.
They want a break.
They just want, want good, theywant a bit of a break and they,
they want piece and they like,can things just be better?
Yeah.
You know, can, can things justget better and can things be
better?
And we're a country that willvery easily get united.
(01:08:31):
So when there's real, when thechips are down.
So in Covid it was, you know, alot of unity.
A lot of unity, a lot of sortingout when things need to get
sorted out.
You'll see the.
Everyone comes together andsorts it out, you know?
Yeah.
We would sit for, um, you know,for 10 years and I, I know
there's power outages that canhappen here and, you know,
around the world.
(01:08:51):
And I think there was hugeinternet art outages, uh, across
the globe.
Yeah.
Yesterday, for example.
But South Africa, it's like, youknow, you so we're so
innovative.
We're, we're a nation and a, apopulation that is just
incredibly, incrediblyinnovative.
'cause you just, you know, wewould be without electricity for
at least sort of 15 years beforeI left.
It started two hours, you know,no electricity, then four hours
(01:09:14):
and sometimes eight.
You, you, you're constantlyfiguring things out, you know,
no electricity and people likehave generators and stuff.
You got generators.
And so, you know, it brings ondifferent levels of, of
opportunity.
Yeah.
So generators, solar power, um,inverters, but you're constantly
like just having to figurethings out, you know, it's like
potholes and there's, you know,and it's also because our social
(01:09:38):
services aren't paid well.
So, sure.
You know, sure.
Teachers are paid terribly and,you know, just like not paid
well, so you don't wanna do yourjob.
And, and so I think there's justlike, yeah, it's a country of
contrast.
You can be living in, you know,a beautiful home in a middle
class suburb and Right.
Uh, which is, you know, we'vegot a huge middle class and it's
(01:09:59):
very mixed.
Black, white.
Right.
You'll go to a restaurant, it'sblack, white, and India.
It's very mixed, very diverse.
And it's, well, well.
Yeah.
Integrated.
Yeah, integrated.
And um, and it's beautiful.
It really is beautiful.
Um, but, um, you can be in a, aneighborhood where it's
relatively middle class and youcan be, you know, mile down the
(01:10:22):
road and you can.
Sea feel not safe.
Shacks.
Yeah.
You know, like tin tines andwhatever.
Uh, you know, it's too climate.
And so it's just this contrast,it's this constant contrast.
What's the, what's the climatelike in general?
Beautiful.
Be just like Caribbean, or notCaribbean, but Mediterranean
climate kind of, or is it, soJohannesburg is probably, you
(01:10:43):
know, we don't have snow SanDiego.
Yeah.
Uh, Cape Town is, I would say ispretty much, oh, more like in
San Diego.
There's a lot of familiarity,you know, I would say, and I
mean, I, I share thisinformation.
I'd say people have gotta go tosite.
It's a gorgeous, gorgeous, yeah.
I definitely have it on my listof places.
Gorgeous.
I mean.
It's exquisite, like Cape Townand Dora and the, the, um, we
call it the bush, uh, you guyswill call it safaris.
(01:11:05):
Sure.
I It's exquisite.
Like you, you just, the the landun is exquisite.
Magnifi, you know, Cape Town isexquisite, exquisite.
Herman is where my folks live,ex like beyond exquisite.
So, uh, San Diego's probably alittle bit like Cape Town
weather and look and feelbecause if we've got Cape Town's
way, way more beautiful.
Uh, but it's that sort of, um,San Diego's not that pretty
(01:11:27):
really.
Uh, it's got beautifulmountains, deep, deep blue ocean
wine farms, all gorgeous,gorgeous Johannesburg climate.
It's probably similar to this,but we don't have snow.
Okay.
But super dry.
Yep.
Um, it's not mountainous, it'scity like, it's just hardcore.
It's like a mini version oflet's say a la like, but I'm
told mini.
So let's get that all incontext.
(01:11:47):
Yeah, yeah.
A tiny little version.
It's still remarkable kinda.
But it's city.
Yeah.
It's hardcore city.
Okay.
And, uh, I mean obviously I wasliving in the suburbs Sure.
Of, of Johannesburg.
Tell me about like your collegepath Yeah.
And choosing that and then, um,kind of like how did you make
your way into the bankingindustry?
Oh, yeah.
(01:12:49):
Uh, I love your questions and Ihave a very, um, uh.
How do I describe it?
I'd say I'm one of those peoplewho is able to make things
happen.
I'm a I'm a make it happenperson, so Yeah.
You're not a non-playercharacter.
You're a, so I was highly full,full player character.
Highly, I'm going to experiencelife to the fullest.
And when I go to my deathbed,it's like, you know, nothing, no
stones unturned.
Okay.
(01:13:10):
Um, so highly capable sportsperson at school.
Okay.
I was a squash player.
Oh, you're a volleyball playertoo?
No volleyball.
Well, you mentioned Dana was avolleyball coach or something.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But volleyball is a, we playedin gym, not a real sport, you
know, not in South African.
Only rugby and cricket are realsports in South Africa.
Okay.
But I played squash and, um,it's similar to your racketball
here, and was highly capableplayer.
(01:13:32):
And so I ended up playing, uh,once I left school.
Okay.
Uh, overseas and had a rankings.
Wow.
Oh wow.
Yeah.
I played in, in you made moneyplaying squash and stuff?
A little bit, yeah, little bit.
But it was, you know, afterspent a lot more money in
playing squash than you made,but.
Yeah, so, so, but traveled and Ithink the experience of being a
professional athlete andtraveling and, you know, we had
just come out of apartheid, Ithink I was the second player
(01:13:53):
to, to, to head out and, andgive it a batch on the world
circuits.
Okay.
I got to like 23 and Oh wow.
Um, and just reached a pointwhere it's like, okay, you know,
do the right thing.
Go study.
So, um, I didn't think I wasreally capable of, of much
outside of squash and ended up,uh, playing.
So you didn't really come intoyour own academically until much
later?
(01:14:14):
I was average academically,yeah.
Average, you know, so I, I didsomething called human movement
science.
Okay.
Which I think you guys have gotalmost like physical therapy.
Physical therapy, physiologyish.
And did really well once I gotinto like, actually loves
kinesiology.
Yeah, yeah.
Kines, well, yes.
Version somewhere in that room.
Something like that.
Yeah.
Uh, human, human performance.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(01:14:34):
Physical performance.
And so, um, spent my time theredoing honors and came out of
that.
And again, I, I wasentrepreneurial, so I opened up.
I had ran two personal traininggyms.
Okay.
Um, I was still playing squash.
I played for South Africa and Iwas still traveling a bit for
squash and uh, that kind ofstuff.
So, you know, ran the personaltraining gyms and, and, uh, felt
(01:14:56):
that by the age of 30 I was overthe, the personal training gyms.
And I was personal training aswell, but I enjoyed running the
gyms, but I didn't enjoy thepersonal training part of it and
just wanted to, they kept havingthis impulse that, uh, corporate
was calling my name.
Never been in corporate.
I had no idea.
And this is where I say like,center of liberation is like
this heart led, because when theheart starts intuiting and
(01:15:19):
pulling and prompting Yeah.
You know, at once something.
And I'm like, oh my God.
Like, I don't have no idea howI'm getting into corporate.
Anyway, long story short endedup, uh, wrapping up the gyms,
like, Hey, the universe decidedto close them for me.
And, um.
I moved back to Johannesburg.
I was living in a place calledDurban then and got into
(01:15:39):
coaching, so business coaching,life coaching, did a diploma.
I studied psychology and did allmy honors in psychology.
Oh, interesting.
And during that time, I reallygot involved.
My, my life was actually quite amess at about 32, 33.
Um, I had to have a hip, totalhip replacement as a result of
squash.
Um, I'd had a big breakup and Iwas kind of just in this crisis.
(01:16:00):
I think everyone goes through,hit some kind of crisis at some
point, uh, where life was notlooking too rosy.
So I moved back to Johannesburgand, uh, started a business with
my sister.
And kind of got into the wholequantum real spiritual realm
during this crisis.
Okay.
You know, law of attraction andunderstanding how quantum worked
and, and energy and the forcefield and all those kind of
(01:16:22):
things.
Uh, and started just topractice, like really shifting
my mindset and shifting.
Wanted to shift my whole life.
I was in debt.
I wanted to get outta that.
And part of that journey waslike I wanted to get into
corporate and just kept havingan a, uh, image of myself, you
know, in a boardroom.
Interesting.
Doing presentations.
I had no idea how that image.
(01:16:44):
Came, it just kept happening andkept happening.
And, and uh, needless to say, Ithink at 36 ish, uh, an
opportunity came to out of theblue, out of nowhere to step
into banking and, uh, like, likeit was just round and round and
like, that's why I say like thesynchronistic orientation of
(01:17:07):
the, the universe has plans foryou.
Yeah, yeah.
You can just follow the plans,fall into the flow of it.
You can just fall into the flowof it and follow it.
And it does not make sense atall.
Anyway, I needless to say thisopportunity never been in
banking, hadn't studied atbusiness school, had done, you
know, a lot of, in the humandevelopment side, understood
quantum, but I'd, I would saymanifested this opportunity and,
(01:17:28):
um, I had an opportunity to stepinto the top niche bank in the
country and on the continent andspend five weeks.
On a project, which I chose tosay yes to, versus I think I
also had an opportunity to, towork for a company for a year,
and I, they both came up at thesame time.
I said, I'm like this, it'scalled, it's r and b, ran
(01:17:49):
Merchant Bank.
Oh yeah.
I'm like, I'm going for, I'mgoing for the, the five week
opportunity and the five weekopportunity turned into about
12, 13 years.
Nice.
Nice.
Yeah.
Just, uh.
It was an amazing experience.
I, uh, when I reflect back on mydeparture from my own banking
career, um, and I don't know if,I don't think we touched on this
(01:18:09):
even, but I, I left banking totry to start a restaurant.
I wanted to do a, a locallysourced international fusion
kind of restaurant thing thatturned into a mobile food truck.
'cause I didn't get my locationsand things, but I started local
think tank kind of along theway.
And I've teased that, you know,local think tank was too
(01:18:29):
difficult for God to explain tome in my dreams and my visions.
But he could pull me out ofbanking with like, Hey, you
should start a restaurant.
But his plan was ne, you know,perhaps still to have me start
look at think tank, but just howto quite explain that wasn't
quite right.
So, anyway, I, I digress.
I wondered if the, the, theheart is deceived and I was also
(01:18:52):
thinking to myself about, youknow, the, the similarities, if
you will, of.
Uh, prayer to manifestation and,you know, manifestation is like
a self-powered kind of thing.
More, but not necessarily.
'cause it requires a universalconsciousness kind of element.
Is that thing God?
Mm-hmm.
I don't know.
(01:19:13):
Um, anyway, so a few differentthings I was thinking about when
you were talking.
Yeah, well that's exactly yourexperience.
It's kind of like when you just,you know, yeah, I'm supposed to
be going this way.
You think you're going this wayand the next thing you're going
this way and the next thingyou're in America.
And like, how does that allhappen?
You know, how, like, how doesthat happen?
So, and, and here you are.
Here we are.
And here we are.
Like, you know, could I havereally constructed this
(01:19:35):
particular journey just on myown right.
I doubt it.
I think there was a little helpsomewhere somehow.
Yeah.
How shaped looks like.
Exactly.
Um, and, and what I think Iwould like to observe is that
your, your career in banking wasreally in the kind of innovation
change Yes.
Management imagination of whatcould be, which banks.
(01:19:56):
Do poorly.
I mean, they, they change at asnail's pace when they're, when
they're changing fast.
Um, and so I'm imagining thatsomebody like yourself, even
with a, a, a blunted environmentfor, for growth and change could
really be seen as a keydifferent kind of thinker.
Yes.
And I think I was that in Yes,in, I worked for little banks,
(01:20:17):
right?
Not big banks, but same kind ofthing.
Yes.
They were like, Hey Kurt, weneed to rebrand.
Like we need some of your ideasand what we think.
We are.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
A hundred percent.
And I think, you know, you'reseeing it very fortunate that
the bank, uh, r and b was, wasvery sort of on it.
And, um, FNB in fact, I think,which is part of the same group,
(01:20:39):
um, known, I think it's in thetop three of, of the most
innovative banks in the world.
Interesting.
Amazing.
I mean, I, you know, our bankingsystem, everything was on, um,
on app and that kind of stuff.
Like, you guys still saidchecks.
You even have checks.
Yeah.
I'm a star.
Like there was one of, there'sso much like.
I was like, you, I drop a checkout for rent still every month.
(01:20:59):
You actually have checks.
Like, um, that's so interesting.
But that's about, that's abouthalf my checkout output is
actually my rent check everymonth.
I put in the mailbox here.
So, you know, you have cats.
Like we just, everything is onthat app.
Everything is, is into the app.
So, you know, very innovativeand amazing thinkers, like I
say, south Africans and, and inthese sort of environments.
(01:21:20):
Mm-hmm.
World class thinking, well, youget crafty.
Right.
Having a hard time, like I'mfrom North Dakota where
resources are always.
Not as much as you wish to.
Mm.
You know, it's kind of like thatkind of environment you talk
and, and when you don't have alot of resources, you get
scrappy and you, and thatcreates a lot of innovation,
lots of in innovation and movesquickly.
(01:21:41):
And so agree.
The big, the big structures,corporate structures that do
move slowly.
And um, and it was interestingto observe over the time I was
there, just how the organizationinvolved and the types of people
instead of, you know, let's sayemploying your traditional sort
of cas and accountants werebringing in like, um, engineers
and just like real different,you know, which was important to
(01:22:04):
Yeah.
Really start thinkingdifferently to, uh, develop
understanding.
And then, you know, we did a lotof things really well.
And so, like I say, sort ofgetting into an understanding,
you know, what is this cryptoland and what yeah, why do
people want it and uh, etcetera, and, you know, so just
staying, staying present withthe times were you.
(01:22:24):
Focused on internal stuff likeyour banking teams and your
bankers and stuff around that?
Mm-hmm.
Or were you working with clientsin, you know, this company and
that company and helping themunderstand.
Strategy plans and differentwhatever.
I was involved for much of mycareer with the internal
transformation, you know,building strategies, kinda
exchange management, strategy,all that.
(01:22:45):
Leaders, building strategies,mergers.
We had a few big mergers and Iwas very involved in, in, um,
our, the merger of our foreignexchange business units and
sitting with the executive teamand, and leading all of that.
And then the last couple ofyears I spent more time with,
um, some clients.
Okay.
As I was involved in, I movedinto an ecosystem and
(01:23:07):
partnership.
Division, which was thecapability overall was all
around innovation and venturesand new innovations.
Yeah.
And so I was working in sharingsome of your leading edge with
the projects of like metaverseand what that meant.
Mm-hmm.
And how clients could useMetaverse.
And so I was in, you know,contributing to some of the
strategies then of, of externalclients as we were looking to,
to support them with Yeah.
(01:23:28):
With these new, who are yourcustomers in the future and all
that kind of stuff.
Yeah.
You're the customers of how doyou support them and you know,
there's just various industries.
So I was pretty involved inthose sort of things and looking
at new ventures and bringing in,you know, again, the bank even
creating its own ecosystem andSure.
Where were the gaps And so itwas as super excited, was very
challenging.
Super exciting.
(01:23:49):
Yeah.
And uh, yeah, you, you seem likea person comfortable with like
zoomed up to 30,000 feet or evena hundred thousand feet, but
also like pulling weeds in thegarden.
A hundred percent.
I think I'm one of those peopleand I don't know how that's
come.
I think just life experience.
I don't know how that, like Ican zoom out.
Very quick, get a big pictureand then I would like, again, it
(01:24:10):
spring this down to, you know, Ithink it's probably part, I
think your nature is that zoomupper, but all of your
experience in professional,professional athletics is like
gotta, that's right there.
You gotta touch it.
Do it.
I've gotta like, I've gotta, I'mnot a.
Just a dreamer.
I have to, like, I've run, wehave, in something in South
Africa, we've got somethingcalled comrades, which is in 9
56 mile.
It's a 90 kilometerultramarathon.
(01:24:31):
Oh.
That you run in one day oryou've got like 10 or 11 hours
to run it.
And I said I had a hipreplacement off, off, but I did
four of those off my hipreplacement off.
Oh gosh.
And that thing is like, oh mygosh.
So it's like I'm a veryphysically orientated, practical
person.
Yeah.
But I know and sense what'scoming or what's here and how to
(01:24:51):
like move.
And then all of that says, youknow, you just gotta stretch
beyond your edges, into youredges to discover more of who
you are.
And I, I mentioned that I'm, I'ma person who, when I go to the
grave, I'm, I'm not, you know, Iwanna know what, what, what
stones do I need to unturn andthen take people there.
You know, people are, I, I lovetaking people.
To new places and to their, notin a painful way.
(01:25:13):
Yeah.
But like, get beyond.
Because you know, comrades was agreat teacher for me of like, oh
boy, you, you're gonna getbeyond yourself if you spend,
you gotta stretch that boundary,stretch that boundary, stretch
that boundary.
You're stretching beyondanything mentally, emotionally,
physically, spiritually.
And you know, in the wholebuildup to training for
something like that.
And then actually on the day ofrunning it mm-hmm.
You transcend in ways you can'tof imagine.
(01:25:35):
I've got a friend that's runningthe, running his second 200 mile
race in June.
Oh God.
Like, that's, no.
And I'm like, dude, why do you,well, no.
Like, you've got a family.
You got a wife that loves you.
He does.
Like why?
I'm surprised.
Yeah.
Oh, it's, anyway.
Yeah.
Wow.
That's wild.
I digress.
He's actually a financialplanner, like a good one.
Uh, but he just like makeshimself do.
(01:25:56):
Yeah.
And it took him.
Think you told me it took himlike three months to recover
from the last one.
Yeah.
No, no.
It's, it's, I mean, I'm talkinglike, uh, 56 miles and that took
me Whew.
Yeah.
A, a solid month to recover fromthat.
Yeah.
Um, well, God bless you allthat.
Do hard things.
Um, are you ready?
Oh, actually, before we getthere, um, let's talk about,
(01:26:19):
because you're kind of afuturist and trends, um, we
always like, I don't know howmany kids listen to my podcast,
but I do want to inspire Yeah.
The future entrepreneurs of theworld and the future.
Like people, the, the peoplethat aren't non-player
characters.
Mm.
Like all the movers, all theprime movers and the movers out
there.
They're not prime, but you know,secondary prime.
(01:26:41):
Um, like with all the evolutionof education of like, especially
for that 16, 18-year-old, um,where do they set their pointer?
What do, yeah.
You know, aside from learningabout ai, like.
Where should they get a, shouldthey get a university education?
Such a great question.
And I'll be honest with you, Idon't actually have the answer.
(01:27:03):
And why do I say that?
Because I think the careers ofthe future haven't even been
thought about yet.
So I think it's, for me, I woulddefinitely be keeping just
travel Europe and South Africafor a couple years, let things
settle down a little bit and seewhere it goes.
I think there's, I just thinkthere's huge opportunity.
I would be number one, I wouldbe following, again, I said at
(01:27:23):
some point in this conversation,follow the smart money.
Like what's the smart moneydoing?
Who are the investors now andwho are the investors of the
future and what are theyinvesting in?
And if you're really wanting tokind of set yourself up, like
just go and explore andexperiment with those, those
things.
So keep your finger on the pulseof those sort of things.
You know, I think the, um, itreally depends.
I think there's going, I, I talkabout paradigms and, and
(01:27:46):
timelines opening up.
So I think there's going to bevarious opportunities to move in
the direction that you reallybrings you most joy.
I think there's a big movementinto the space of like.
Uh, enjoy what you do.
What I'd say is, so figuring outwhat you enjoy, figuring out
what you enjoy, what I would sayis, you know, if you, uh, sorry
(01:28:06):
to all the parents out there,what I will, what my, my sense
would be like when your parentsare saying, go and do this.
Go and do this.
Be a doctor, be it, and youreally don't want to be because
you wanna do something else.
Don't waste your time and go andbe a doctor because you're gonna
end up coming back through.
Yeah.
It's gonna pull you intojournalism or whatever anyway.
Exactly.
It's gonna pull you back anyway.
So rather save some money, timeand, and energy And just if you
(01:28:27):
can, follow your path.
Number one, if you don't feel apull, if you don't fully feel a
pull, pull, steady.
Follow the path of leastresistance.
Don't make life difficult.
If you do not enjoy something,don't do it.
What do you prefer?
What do you prefer?
And what lights you upenergetically and from the
inside?
And go and pursue that.
You're generally gonna have amuch happier life experience
(01:28:47):
than spending 20 years in adirection you don't wanna be and
then changing anyway.
I like it.
Are you ready for a game?
Go for it.
Okay.
I'm curious.
We've got 30 numbered ping pongballs each attached to either a
sophisticated business questionor something very silly.
Pull out three.
(01:29:08):
Okay.
And before I pull out three, onemore comment on the, the, the,
the kids for the kids.
Right.
Create value in whatever you dothe best opportunities.
If you're creating value andyou're solving problems for
people, you're doing so good.
And, and so just get really goodat, good at that and look for
opportunities to create value.
Yeah, I love it.
That's great.
Sorry, so I get to pull outthree three balls?
(01:29:29):
Yes.
This orange and white attachedto a question on my little sheet
here.
Okay.
I'm gonna close my eyes for thefirst one, please.
Yeah, that's great.
Alright.
Twin, is that right?
Yeah, 20.
20.
What's your go-to?
Excuse when you want to get outof plans.
Oh my goodness.
That's so good.
What is my go-to excuse when Iwanna get out of, not that you
(01:29:50):
would do such a thing when Iwant.
Oh, I can be like, if Dana wantsto actually go to a movie, but
you've got a headache.
No, it's not a headache.
Uh, I've got so much work to do.
What's that?
I've got so much work to do.
So much work to do.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Even if you don't actually applyto work on that work.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, um, I've got, I'm sooverwhelmed that I actually need
(01:30:12):
to just chill.
Exactly.
I just gotta sit on the couch.
Right.
I just gotta But meditate.
The excuse is I've got a lot ofwork to do, but a lot of work to
do.
And I wanna meditate, butactually I just wanna sit,
meditate.
I like it.
Okay.
Uh, let's do the same question.
That's a great question.
I love that.
Okay, lemme go with the, we'llgo 26.
26.
(01:30:33):
Uh, you know, I'm what, thisalmost seems like it's gonna be
the same answer.
What's your go-to way to unwindafter a stressful day?
I'm gonna say you're gonnameditate, but I'm gonna say I'll
still listen for your answer.
Okay.
My go-to is, um, I have a littlebeagle dog, so, you know, there
wasn't a lot that came with mefrom South Africa, but I've
bought my little vegan dog.
(01:30:53):
Okay.
All right.
What's her name or his name?
His name is Oliver.
Hi Oliver.
And, uh, I just, you know, onething that I really value and I
authority, love, um, and I havea very deep appreciation and I
don't think many Americans, Imay maybe you do.
Yes.
That's not a fair comment, butI'll say you have a very
beautiful country and the factthat you have very few fences
(01:31:14):
and there it's a picket fence'cause you're keeping your dog
inside, like cherish it.
Hmm.
So, um, I love taking Ali for awalk and seeing the mountains
and Yeah.
Kind just.
Bumbling around.
That's my go-to.
Just the opportunity to be insuch exquisite nature.
We've gotta be open spaces.
So close and relatively safe.
Yeah.
I love it.
Uh, alright.
(01:31:34):
Last one again.
Ball number three.
Yeah.
Oh, let's go.
Let's go, let's go.
Let's have another orange one.
Number 15.
15.
What was either the last thingyou Googled or the last meme
that you downloaded?
The last thing.
The last thing I checked GBT.
Let's go.
(01:31:55):
Yeah, that works.
Yeah.
What did I check?
GBT, uh.
What was I working on today?
Yeah, that question's alreadyout of date.
Ava, we just, yeah.
Uh, I'm preparing for a masterclass, so, okay.
Um, I have done all and, uh,done all the marketing and, you
(01:32:15):
know, things for the opt-in pageand whatever.
And so the last thing I Googledwas like, I wanna reshape this
entire thing, uh, to bring in,you know, more intuitive, more
this, whatever.
And so please rewrite the whole,the whole thing.
And I got my, oh, it was so wellwritten.
It wasn't Googled.
It was chatted.
It was chatted, so, oh.
But chat job.
I don't think I do too muchGoogle anymore.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Same.
(01:32:36):
Yeah.
So, so it built my, my, uh, notthe website, but the opt-in.
Paid.
Rebuilt it.
Rebuilt it.
Yeah.
Look at this.
Make it better.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, the Loco experience is ourfinal segment.
Are you ready?
Beautiful.
Let's go.
That is the craziest experience.
So loco crazy of your lifetimethat you're willing to share the
(01:32:58):
craziest experience.
Yeah.
Any kidnappings or near deathexperiences or parachute,
jumping on a planes or, I don'tknow, whatever.
Uh, squash professionals couldtoo.
I see.
When they're traveling the worldor I don't know, near-death
experiences.
Do you have more than one?
Three.
(01:33:18):
Three?
You can share'em all if youwant.
Were, I've got like five.
There we go.
It depends on how close somewere.
Some were more in, more, moredear near death than others.
Uh, but after I had my hipreplacement operation.
Okay.
I, um, got pulmonary embolismsand I didn't know, uh, and so
I've been on, you get that'slike your lung, right?
Where it's like Yes.
(01:33:39):
You get blood clots in yourlungs.
Yeah, and I didn't know.
And um, I felt pain in my chestfor about three weeks.
Mm-hmm.
And I thought, oh, it must justbe maybe we an infection and
whatever, and I, I'll just runan ultra marathon, I'll be fine.
Well, I'd started doing therehab and so you gotta walk
around the, the neighborhood andyou gotta start going to gym.
(01:34:00):
So I was doing all of this andum, eventually probably about it
got really intense and I startedhaving this tight chest really,
really tight, couldn't breatheand I started coughing out
blood, uh, at which point I waslike on the phone to my sister.
I like, you gotta come fetch me.
You gotta conduct something'shappening.
I can't breathe.
(01:34:21):
And she came to fetch me andrushed me to hospital.
And they didn't.
Yeah.
They just, I had pulmonary savedyou after four weeks of walk.
Wow.
And apparently I need 2% of thepopulation survived pulmonary
embolisms without exercise.
Oh dang.
The, the, the guy I was on,literally, I was like out of
body at this point and kind oflooking down because your lungs
(01:34:43):
were all filling up with fluidbasically in your, I was just
down.
I couldn't breathe.
I was like, oh dang.
And so, um, they were, theywere, had oxygen on me and
trying to just sort of get mebreathing.
And I just remember that thedoctor, at some point after they
got me stabilized, he just camein.
He was like.
Big eyes.
He was like, can't believe wesaved you.
Are you still here or something?
(01:35:05):
How are you still here?
Dang.
And then I got, after one of thecomrades, I got blood clots
again in my leg.
Okay.
Uh, and had to go to similarkind of thing.
Similar, except I didn't letmyself get to, um, uh, I picked
up the symptoms a bit and then Iwas in a, uh, quite a, a big car
accident, uh, which I have noidea how I walked out with,
literally tell me thecircumstance.
(01:35:25):
Like I had a blow out on, on,uh, one of our highways.
Okay.
And I was driving and it was in,on the, um, you drive on the
right there, we drive on theright.
No, everything's like, I'm on awhole new timeline.
So we drive on the right and,uh, but it's not British.
No.
Oh, it is British.
It is, yeah.
Common.
Yeah, I guess it is.
I thought it was common.
Just British colonies are mainlythe only ones that do it.
(01:35:46):
Right.
The Commonwealth.
So to, I had to redo my driver'slicense.
I had to, the written and the,and the right, whatever.
I was, I've never been sonervous.
The pressure of like doing mydriver's license, the left, the
written one, let alone that atthe age of 51 or whatever, it
was like, oh my gosh, I can'tbelieve I'm doing this again.
However.
And um, so you're driving andyou had it blow it on your
(01:36:06):
title?
Yeah, I have a blood in the tireand driving on a highway and,
you know, like you guys havebarricades in between Sure.
The barricade and sort of spunall over the place.
Whoa.
Uh, and literally, I mean, the,the car was squashed and I was
driving, so my, the driver'sside was like, oh dang hit.
Like the car was half was halfand Oh dang.
(01:36:27):
And I still like just you youdidn't bounce off of other cars
or anything?
No.
Unfortunately, you and the guardrail played a little bit, me and
the guardrail, and it was happenso quick, you know, because.
Just next to the curve, therewas a bit of grass and then, you
know, the barrier.
And so it had the blow.
Oh.
Got a fright.
Probably going at 60, 70 miles.
Got a fright, then went off the,didn't flip over.
(01:36:49):
It just like spun.
We should have, but the, theother tire blew.
And then as we hit the, we youwere whistling.
I was, yeah.
I had someone in the car withme, the, um, the tires because
there was no tread.
They kind of Oh yeah.
Winded into, yeah.
They're just sliding and insteadof flipping over the guard rail
(01:37:10):
kind of thing, that's, uh, soyeah.
Yeah.
A blessing.
Yeah.
So I'm very blessed to be here.
I'm very grateful.
And, uh, I think you got atleast three or more near deaths
than you.
I'm done.
You're young.
Yeah, I'm done.
I'm done.
I'm done.
The pian person No more please.
Was like Okay.
I think I'm, I'm, it's been like10 years for me since I've had
one.
I kinda like breathing easily.
It's kind of fun.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(01:37:30):
Fair.
Um, do you have any questionsfor me as we wrap this up?
Well, well, there you go.
What's the craziest thing thatyou haven't shared with your
audience yet?
About you?
About me?
Yeah.
Near-death experiences.
Well, I've shared a few stories.
Um, I don't know I've evershared that I was, I was five
(01:37:51):
foot one at the end of mysophomore year of high school,
so I was super short.
I was five foot at the beginningof my seventh grade year.
So I basically didn't grow from,from seventh grade to 10th
grade.
Oh my gosh.
And, uh, then all of a suddenshot up.
Uh, and I was a good basketballplayer, but unfortunately I was
super short.
So like I didn't work out thatway.
(01:38:13):
So, uh, so yeah, that experienceof kind of, and, and I was kind
of depressed at that time'causeI was like smart and stuff and
I, you know, whatever peopleliked me and stuff, but like
knowing that I was probablyjust, my dad was six four and
knowing that I was gonna be thislike shorty.
For and kind of well acceptingthat, but not really.
(01:38:36):
I was pretty depressed about it.
Um, and then all of a sudden Istarted getting tall and it was
like, well now I'm this, youknow, six you, you up for it,
two and 130 pounds or whatever,you know, at that time made.
So it was also awkward growing.
But, but yeah, it was a, youknow, it was a humbling thing.
Like, I, I don't know how toquite explain it.
Like for all your shorties outthere, you know, there's no
(01:38:58):
shame in that, and I'm gladyou're there too.
But I don't know, for whateverreason, I had come to accept
this fact that even though I hada really tall dad and a normal
sized mom, I was gonna be likethis short little guy all my
life.
And then I started growing, likeby the time I confronted the
issue, then I started growing.
So that was definitely afascinating time for me in a
real small school, you know, 50person high school.
(01:39:19):
So it was.
You know, I was Kurt the Squirtand was definitely bullied
heavily more than most everybodyelse.
Wow.
I'm astounded.
And I mean, I, I, that wouldjust not, that didn't think I
would be a victim of bully hood.
No.
And it wouldn't even featurethat you were ever short.
So I'm like, okay, well, fair.
That's amazing.
Yeah, so I guess it wasn't anexperience wasn't a near death.
I've shared a lot of my neardeath experiences on here
(01:39:41):
already, so I didn't wannaduplicate one of those by
accident.
But, uh, but yeah, that was anexperience for sure.
Wow.
Yeah.
Thanks for asking.
Yeah, sure.
Well, thanks for sharing.
Thanks for being here.
Yeah.
I mean, if people wanna findyou, they just look you up on
LinkedIn.
Is that the best way?
LinkedIn just, uh, look me upthere and Yeah.
I'm a little bit on Facebook.
I do quite a few posts there or,okay.
(01:40:02):
Or you can go to my website.
Uh, center of Liberation.
Center of liberation com.
Yeah.
Center of Liberation.
So liberating you from all the,all the.
The annoying, challenging, gethappy, man.
I'm just like, let's, let's justget happy.
Yeah.
Liberate yourself from thestress and anxiety of you wanna
make more money, you wannaposition your business, you
wanna go to the next level.
Um, go to the edges.
(01:40:22):
Lean into the edges and what'snext in expand your life.
Expand your and um, and dirt,you know, quicker and easier
than in a quantum way.
In a quantum way than come playin my world.
I'd like it.
I would love it.
Hey, I appreciate you beinghere, Sean.
So great to be here.
Have a nice, nice, uh,afternoon, evening.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.