EXPERIENCE 222 | Focus, Innovation, and Customization with Murph McIver, Founder and Software Architect at Xeo Software - The LoCo Experience

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
In this episode of the LocoExperience Podcast, I welcome

(00:02):
Murph MacGyver into the studio.
Murph is the founder andsoftware architect at ZEO
Software and moved his familyfrom Honolulu to Fort Collins in
2021.
We discussed what brought themhere, the unique attributes of
Fort Collins and the vibrantbusiness culture.
Murph shares insights into hiscompany's founding story and
mission to help businessesautomate and scale, especially

(00:23):
those that have unique needsthat off the shelf software
cannot address.
We delve into the complexitiesin the future of AI and software
development emphasizing itspotential, the level of playing
field for custom softwareapplications.
The conversation transitions topersonal reflections where MPH
highlights his focus onlifestyle changes influenced by
Dan Dani's book, the Power ofUnwavering Focus, and his

(00:47):
personal commitment to makingsignificant life enhancements
through the Power ofconcentrated thought I'm sure
you'll enjoy as I did myconversation with Merck
MacGyver.

(01:32):
Welcome back to the LocoExperience Podcast.
I'm here today with Murph McIver, and Murph is the founder
and software architect at.
ZEO software.
You got a nice hat too.
I like that brand.
Oh, thank you Kirk.
Yeah.
Um, thanks for being here.
Thanks for sharing time.
It's a pleasure to be here.
So, um, we met each other, whatabout a year ago now?

(01:54):
A year and a half, I forget.
Yeah, yeah.
Probably about that.
Yeah.
You, you, you offered to takeme, show me around, uh,
downtown.
Yeah.
Old town.
We a nice walk.
Yeah.
And you were relatively new totown from Where did Yeah, so we
moved from Honolulu.
Oh, that's right.
Yeah.
And, uh, my wife retired fromthe military.
I followed her around, uh,through her military career.
So she retired.
Yeah.
And we could've lived anywherein the world.

(02:14):
I was like, New Zealand soundsneat to me, but she wanted to be
closer to la.
Okay.
And, uh.
We picked Fort Collins and I'mso glad we did.
I love the, uh, the bike trailshere.
I feel like it's well governed.
Yeah.
Um, and the schools are justphenomenal.
Why would, did she want to beclose to LA for family reasons
or?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Her family's there.
Okay.
Gotcha.
Don't actually wanna live in labut she, she wanted to one short
flight away, but I, I told herI'll leave anywhere you want

(02:37):
baby, but not la I told her,you'll see your family more
often if you live here in FortCollins.
'cause when you fly there,they'll be guar, they'll be
guaranteed to see you.
Right.
Yeah.
If you live there, you can go awhole year before you see it.
Right.
Yeah.
That's the way life issometimes.
Well, that's cool.
Well, welcome to Fort Collins.
Glad for, it's always nice wheninteresting people move here
and, and choose it from all theplaces, you know, that's where

(02:57):
it gets that choice city kindof, it, I I, I felt tremendously
welcome here.
Yeah.
And, and, uh, I, it's like ajerk free zone.
I, I, you know, I've lived herefor, for two and a half years,
almost coming up on three years,and, and everybody's just so
nice here.
And I, I love the networkingculture.
Um, it, it, it.
I, I wish networking was likethis everywhere.
Yeah.

(03:18):
Yeah.
People wanna uplift each other.
Yeah.
It's like when you get here,people're like, oh, how are you
doing?
Who are you doing?
What are you up to?
How can I help you?
Exactly.
Who can I introduce you to?
So who, who can, who can Iintroduce you to?
Like who do, who, what does ZEsoftware do for who?
So, um, ZEO software, we buildcustom business applications and
we help businesses automate andscale.

(03:39):
And so the, the, the key kind ofbusinesses we're looking for
are, uh, innovative businesses,businesses that are doing things
a little differently.
Okay.
Uh, because when they're doingthings differently, the Offthe
Shelf software, uh, is not agreat fit and we can, uh, build.
Given that a hundred percentsolution that where the software
works, just like the businessworks.

(03:59):
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
And then they're better able toscale the company.
And that's where you see thehuge ROI is when they're able to
grow the company because theydon't need to hire more people.
Mm.
Now is this like a ERP kind ofsolution or it depends, so they
use normal QuickBooks and thingslike that, or?
Yeah, so I think in, in thebusiness world today, there's so
much great off the shelfsoftware from accounting to CRMs

(04:22):
and, and all these other things.
So we, but we can do customsoftware and so when I get a
client, the first thing I do issit down with them and
understand what data is itthey're working with.
Mm-hmm.
And then architect, uh, makesure I, I can architect the data
and that enables me to, uh,deliver software that works just
the way.

(04:42):
Uh, the business works and, youknow, it's funny, uh, but one of
the things that we start offwith, it seems so low tech, it's
just a glossary.
I can't tell you how many timesI've come into a business,
especially, you know, businesshas got a few people.
Yeah, yeah.
And different people in thebusiness will use different
words to talk about the exactsame thing.
Right.
And so by starting off with theglossary, uh, and using that to
build the database around thevocabulary and the language that

(05:04):
the people already use, uh, whenyou get to the point where they
see the software, they don'thave any questions because it
works the way they would expectit to work.
Yeah.
It is already used in thevocabulary.
Interesting.
Are these physical businesses alot of times, like, um, you
know, building things or sellingwidgets or services, or is it
online clients more?
Oh, it, uh, typically, yeah.

(05:26):
Larger companies or generallyservice companies are, we, we
find there's a lot morevariability with service
companies than with likemanufacturing.
Sure.
So we, we tend to.
We, we find a lot of our clientsare, are in, you know, providing
a service.
Um, so like for, like, forexample, one of our biggest
clients is providing automotiveservice.

(05:47):
They deliver, uh, automotiveservice to fleets.
Okay.
And they, they dispatch theirtrucks to the fleet parking lot
at night when the fleet's not inuse.
Okay.
So that the drivers can justfocus on what they're doing when
they, when they show up in themorning.
Okay.
And, uh, the software we wrotetracks all the vehicles, all the
maintenance schedules.
Okay.
Um, uh, all the invoices thatare being generated, we push

(06:08):
those invoices into QuickBooks.
Sure.
Um, we tie into, uh, some offthe shelf timecard software.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, because our systemknows the, the, uh, cost of the
parts that are going in thevehicle, we know the labor
rates.
Oh wow.
And, uh, we can generate reportsimmediately after the shift to
show exactly what the margin wason that shift.

(06:29):
Oh, wow.
And, and that's really where youget the big ROI.
With these systems is thedashboard, right?
Is having those real timeperformance metrics available to
the managers Yep.
So that they can react in realtime to what's happening in
their business.
Hmm.
Yeah.
And if, if Joe's killing it outthere, you can have Ask Joe,
well how, how he's killing it sogood.

(06:50):
Right, exactly.
And try to find more Joes orhelp Joe be a trainer or
whatever.
Interesting.
So yeah, that makes a lot ofsense.
Like there just isn't like anecessarily a process, you know,
like it's a manufacturingcompany, then there's, you know,
the raw materials comes in.
We do this stuff to it, we sellit, but it's, it's a little more

(07:10):
probably.
Industry niche.
And so there's softwares thatare made for the manufacturing
industry Exactly.
That really fit.
And we were talking about ai.
I mean, I think, I think, uh,really AI is gonna have such a
huge impact on the softwareindustry.
Sure.
And what it's doing is it'sdriving the cost of developing
software down.
Mm-hmm.
Because now coders are going to,uh, be seeing 10 and 20 times x

(07:33):
productivity as they learn toimplement these AI tools in
mm-hmm.
In their processes.
And I'm really excited being acustom software developer
because, well, I gotta tell you,for, for years, Kurt, I've
always felt like I've beenplaying second fiddle to the
SaaS companies because they're,you know, larger and it's a
higher risk, higher reward.
They just monthly subscriptiondeal going right.
And stuff.
Exactly.

(07:53):
Exactly.
Um, and, and, but now I thinkwith custom software.
Is gonna be in the ascendancybecause the reason people go to
SaaS is because the cost islower.
Yeah.
Not because it's better.
'cause they're selling so manycopies.
They're selling so many copies.
Right.
And it takes, it costs thempennies to, to start up a new
client on the software thatalready exists.
Yeah.
But when you can rapidly developcustom software at a lower price

(08:16):
point, right.
You get a much better fit.
Oh, I bet.
In the app world and stuff too,like it used to be, if you
wanted somebody to build you anapp for your business, whatever
that is, it would be a couplehundred thousand dollars.
Exactly.
Or maybe a million.
Just depends how things go.
Right.
How many things you wanted todo.
But now that could be.
30 grand or something like that.

(08:36):
Exactly.
Right.
For exactly right.
Huh.
And that, that's what I'm reallyexcited towards is, is I'm
really pushing my companytowards, uh, uh, the concept of
mass customization, which Ifirst heard from Bill Gates back
in like 95 mm.
His book The Road Ahead.
He talked about how, um, theability to, he was using the
example, I think in, in, interms of jeans or something like

(08:57):
that, right?
Where you could like, take themeasurement, send it off to a
factory, right?
And if they're automated enough,you could get, uh, you know, a
pair of jeans doesn't cost anymore than any other pair of
jeans, but they're made just foryou in terms of the color.
And, and maybe, you know, otheraspects makes my butt look what
I bend over.
So, um, but now I think we havethe opportunity to really, uh,

(09:20):
complete mass customization, uh,with custom software.
Hmm.
Because the, because the cost ofthe software is going down, we
can really, uh, basically set upa factory that is gonna enable
us to rapidly deliver customsoftware.
So how do you, you have a mostlyoverseas team, is that Yeah, a
hundred percent.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All my employees are, and I'mthe bot India.

(09:42):
Okay.
Oh, all in one place.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so these are long-termemployees, most of'em and stuff.
Are they, how do you equip themto use these AI tools to, you
know, it, it's a, it's achallenge to deliver value.
Yeah.
It's a challenge.
The, uh, the culture over thereis not as innovative as, as the
us.
Okay.
And, and, um, in a way I thinkthat really helps me because I'm

(10:03):
an American manager managingthese Indian employees.
So, um, I feel like we get thebest of both worlds.
But, um, but, but basicallywe're, uh.
Buying training materials.
Right.
And a matter of fact, justyesterday, boot, you have time,
right?
Just yesterday I told myemployees the last two hours of
the day, I want you guys justfocusing a hundred percent on
ai.

(10:24):
Don't do any, don't do any workfor our customers for the last
two hours.
Wow.
Um, because we, we have got tocomplete this transition to AI
coding, and there's, we have nochoice.
We have no choice.
Can you trust it?
The, um, no.
Like, because sometimes GR andChad, GPT just lie to you, you
know, they're like, oh yeah,bill Clinton was president in

(10:45):
2017 or whatever.
You're like, no, sure.
That wasn't true.
Um, no.
You can't trust it.
Um, yeah.
But what you can do do is, butyou can debug it.
You can, you can learn it.
Well, the, the, the, uh, what,what you're talking about is, is
a little different.
The, when we talk about writingsoftware, there's just a lot
less variability.
And, and it's, it's something tosee how good Chachi PT is with

(11:08):
the English language and howmuch variability is in an
English language.
But when you look at computercode, there's just a lot less
variability.
Sure.
And that enables, like when thelanguage models kick out
computer code, it alwayscompiles it.
There's never any syntax errors.
Hmm.
Right.
So, um, so, so that's, that'snice right off the bat.

(11:28):
Right.
Right.
But that could give you a falsesense of security.
Um, but I really think that thenew unit of knowledge that's
really important is the prompt,right?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
How do you prompt the AI to, toconsistently get you the results
that you want?
Yep.
And you know, we have, uh,there's a number of different
stages that software goesthrough as we go from the

(11:50):
architecture to the finishedproduct.
Yeah.
And the key thing that we needto do is figure out precisely
how to prompt it at each step.
So that we get, uh, consistentresults and when we find a
prompt that works, we're gonnakeep it right.
And then the question is, can weuse an ai, like, so using AI to
come up with the prompt, right?

(12:10):
Right, right, right.
Um, and, uh, so, uh, so, soanyway, that's, that, that's
where we're, that's where theindustry is headed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And there's a bunch of softwarecompanies out there.
All the big companies arelooking to, to completely
automate this.
Right.
Um, and, and that is just hugelythreatening to my company.
And so that's why I feel like wehave, you know, we either surf
this wave or get crushed byinvesting 20% of your guys' time

(12:33):
in it.
Exactly.
Huh.
Yeah.
That's an amazing, but, butmaybe the, the agility of.
And the innovation of a smallercompany can rule win out.
I don't know.
Well, I, I, I'm counting on it.
Yeah.
What choice, I dunno what elseto do.
I mean, we can live not nearlyas exciting on my wife's
military retirement, but, uh,um, yeah, there's, um, yeah, we,

(12:59):
we, we, we gotta push forward onthis.
Yeah, I like it.
Um, let's talk about your, uh,experience in Fort Collins so
far.
You said you have been a bikerider pretty consistently?
Uh, yeah.
Yeah.
You know, um, yeah.
I, I've gotten out here on thisblue sky trail, so I do mountain
biking and the road biking.
Okay.
And, um, I love these, uh, Ilove these trails.

(13:19):
You know, I love riding on thebike trails.
I'm a little scared to get onthe road.
Right.
Just'cause I, you know, yeah.
Most of us have been damn nearhit a few times.
Yeah.
But, uh, the bike trails arephenomenal and I'm just so.
Proud to live in a city thatspends money on the bridges and
the tunnels.
So the, the, the, the biketrails don't intersect with the,
with the big roadways.
Yep.
Yep.
Uh, it's phenomenal.

(13:40):
And then with the mountainbiking, I mean, we got Lori
State Park.
I mean, I, I'm, I'm just gettinginto that in terms of really
exploring these, these biketrails and stuff.
But it's phenomenal.
We'll have to have another walkand talk because I, uh, I was a
lot more into mountain biking afew years ago, but, uh, it's a,
it's, there's a lot of greattrails around.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Have you been up to, what arethe trails?

(14:00):
Up to putter that are off leash?
Do you guys have a dog?
Uh, no.
Um, and no, I have not been upon those trails.
Um, anyway, I forget the, the,anyway, there's two trails that
are legally off leash dog Okay.
Trails.
Okay.
Uh, that are also reallyexcellent mountain biking
trails.
Okay.
Uh, and so if you've got like adog that's got wheels, it's a

(14:21):
great way to run your dog, uh,legally.
Okay.
Alright.
Sounds good.
Sounds good.
Well, you, you've had almostthree years in Colorado Now.
You don't have a dog yet.
Uh, we had one, but, uh, sorry.
It drove my, my wife a littlenuts.
She was, she was a, um, a goldenretriever and she was the
sweetest golden retriever you'dever want to have.
But just the hair was just, youneed a golden, you need a

(14:42):
doodle.
That's what you need is adoodle, a non shedding golden
retriever.
Yeah, that's it.
That would be a better bet.
But yeah, the dog was driving mywife nuts and my wife was
driving me nuts, so I'm like,the dog's gotta, yeah.
So how did you get into customsoftware?
Like, what was your journey?
Um, did you work in industry fora while and then started your
own thing or what's that looklike?

(15:03):
Yeah, so when I was, uh, when Iwas going to college, I, I read,
um, uh.
The road Less traveled by ScottPeck.
And it had such a powerfulimpact on me.
And I thought I wanted to be a,a psychiatrist, well, a
psychologist.
Um, and so I, I started down theroad to become, um, a
psychotherapist and, andpsychologist.
Okay.
Yeah.
And, uh, and then when I was ingrad school, I got a chance to

(15:25):
work in a group home with peoplewith serious mental illness,
including like major depression,bipolar disorder, yeah, yeah.
Schizophrenia.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then I just decided that Idid not wanna be a psychologist,
but I had already, uh, kind ofsigned up with the military and
they'd had, based on my desireto be a psychologist, they'd
already put me in this MedicalService Corps and I, which I had
no, you know.

(15:45):
And so they said, well, nowyou're a healthcare
administrator'cause you're notgetting your PhD, you're gonna
be a healthcare administrator.
I'm like, what is, what is that?
Right.
I had no idea.
Which is basically like a, a, amanager.
Right, right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Just in organizer, the wholehealthcare, keeping track of
data Right.
Was a big part of it.
Right.
Okay.
So, um, so in 98, um, I wasstationed at Triple Army Medical

(16:06):
Center in uh.
In, in Hawaii.
Okay.
And, uh, there I was, we had1100 nurses in the hospital and
I was in the nursing department,and I needed a, they needed a
database to track all thesenurses and, and who, who reports
to who, when does their, uh, youknow, basic life support
certification expire.
And, uh, where are they working?

(16:27):
How many, you know, how, howmany people, how many patients
are on that ward?
How many nurses?
What are the ratios?
It was just, uh, so that, sothat's where I cut my teeth.
And, and, but it was reallyfortunate because there was a
reorganization in the hospital.
Mm.
And about 60% of my workloadjust disappeared off my desk.
Okay.
And, and there was only oneother guy who knew it in the

(16:47):
hospital that my workload had,had, had plummeted, but he
wasn't my boss.
So, so I, you know, it was likea Tuesday afternoon and I'm
like, I, you know, my email boxis clear and I got like nothing
to do and I, you know, I hadthis book on Microsoft Access.
Okay.
And I'm like, I'm just gonnaplow through this book.
Yeah.
And I had the time Oh,'cause youwere, you were doing this data

(17:09):
handling, but old school style.
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
You know, the, the key thing?
Yeah.
So we, we, we were usingMicrosoft Access.
Yeah.
I mean, that was a tool that Ihad readily available.
Now, the IT department for thehospital, of course they
wouldn't touch access, right?
Because it's a desktopapplication and people kind of,
it, people could look down onit, right?
But the cool thing about Accessit is it does allow for rapid
application development.

(17:30):
You can, you can buildapplications very quickly with
it.
Okay.
And, um, but.
But that's where I, I basicallytrained myself.
I mean, I, I did have a few weeklong courses.
I, I, I, I took, uh, well, Itook a, uh, one college class in
Excel and Okay.
And access, and when we got tothe access part, as soon as we
got into it, I, I was like, I, Ijust knew that this stuff was

(17:51):
for me.
I, it just, it just clicked withme.
Yeah.
And the teacher, I'm like, he'sgoing so slow.
I just went through the courseand, you know, I was like,
teaching the other guys, right.
This stuff should work.
So that, that was my firstintroduction to, to databases
and then we, you know, andyou're like a 23-year-old guy or
something.
I was a little older than that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Probably my late twenties.
Okay.
Yeah.

(18:11):
Um, almost 30.
And, uh, and, and so I just, Ijust developed this expertise
and access.
Sure.
And, um, after three years ofthat and, and you know, going
through the books, teachingmyself how to code when I got
out of the Army, I'm like, I'mjust gonna be a freelance
database consultant.
Huh.
And, uh, so that was fun.
And then, uh, I had a buddy ofmine.
Was it a decision to leave theArmy, or, um, oh yeah,

(18:32):
definitely.
It was always a short term.
Yeah.
No, it was, I'd never intendedto retire from it.
Yeah.
It was always, uh, well, Ienlisted back in, in 90, uh,
back in 1990, like a few weeksbefore Saddam invaded Kuwait.
Okay.
And that's a, that's a funstory, but, um, but yeah.
Um, you wanna go there?
Oh, sure, sure.
Why not?
Why not set the stage?
Oh, so, um, so, you know, whenI, when I was, uh, when I was

(18:55):
going through high school, Ithought I would go into the
Army.
'cause I had three olderbrothers all went right into the
army as soon as they graduatedhigh school.
Okay.
I, I'm like, I thought that's,it was just an assumption
everybody does that.
Yeah.
And so I, I was gonna join theArmy and my dad said, no.
Uh, I want you to go to collegeand you're smarter than your
brothers guess.
Well, they'll probably listen tothis and they'll be like, yeah,
he kind of is.

(19:18):
Well, the, uh, so, so I went tocollege, but I didn't have the
discipline.
Oh, I, I was reallyundisciplined.
And so I ended up dropping aclass and flunking out of class.
And your dad's like the army?
No, that, so anyway, so thatdidn't work out.
Then I got a job at arestaurant.
Right.
Okay.
And so I was like, partying,having a good time, you know, I
was like 19, 20 years old.

(19:39):
Sure.
And so I did that for a while.
And then, um, and then I, I, Iwas working in this restaurant
and I, I was bartending and, andwaiting tables.
And then the manager comes up tome and she says.
She says, you know, I think, Ithink you could be a manager, a
restaurant manager.
And it just scared, it, scaredthe crap outta me because I'm
like, no, no, no, no, I'm notgoing.
That means be this is atemporary thing, right?

(20:02):
So, uh, a week later I decidedto join the Army, and then it
was like, boom, I was, I wasoutta there and this is right
before.
Like the sad saying exactly thefirst one, right?
July, 1990.
Yeah.
When I, when I joined.
So after, so when you join, sowhen I was in basic training, I
mean, you have no access tomedia, you had no access to
newspapers or anything.
Right.
And so the drill sergeant'scoming in and like, oh yeah,

(20:24):
Saddam just invaded Kuwait andyou know, there's chemical
weapons there and so you need totake this chemical weapon
training very seriously.
Oh gosh.
'cause you get one little dropof this stuff on your skin and
it's gonna kill you.
And you might be heading offthere as soon as you finish
here.
Exactly.
And some of my, some of myclassmates, some of the people I
went through basic did go rightoff to Yeah.
Uh, go right off to warafterwards.
Um, so yeah, that was a, thatwas a real wake up call.

(20:46):
So, um, what I tell young peopleis that, hey, if you wanna think
about joining the military, justmake sure you're willing to go
to war.
'cause that had, that thoughthad never come into my mind.
Like, this was for college,right?
Yeah.
Vietnam was the last real thingthat our military had been
involved with.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Interesting.
So, um.
Yeah.
So, so yeah.
Don't join the military unlessyou're ready to read it.

(21:07):
Ready to go warm.
Yeah.
Did you see live action?
No, I didn't.
No.
Thank goodness.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, I, I was ready to, I, I, Iremember, have a very distinct
memory sitting under a tree andbe like, you know, they, I
could, they could, they couldsend me over there and I could
die over there.
And I'm like, and um, I made thedecision and I said, that's what
happens.
That's what happened.
But, um, fortunately I got sentto California instead of Kuwait.
Right.
Which I was like really, really,really glad for.

(21:31):
Yeah.
So then you take this kind offound skill with access.
Yeah.
And, and, and then like.
Well just become kind of afreelance software consultant at
that point.
Almost.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And this was back before Googleand Yahoo was the search engine.
Then Yahoo.
And my buddy, he had studiedtheir, their, their algorithm

(21:53):
and he told me exactly how tosubmit my, um, business to
Yahoo.
And when I followed his advice,when you put in like Microsoft
Access help into Yahoo, mywebsite was the only website
that showed.
Oh my gosh.
So my, you know, it was justlike, wow.
It was, it was, it's like you'redominating Google search.
Exactly, exactly.
Crazy with that, with that onesubmission.

(22:14):
So that was really fortunate.
'cause it, it, it, you know, Igot a lot of clients got, got a
chance to kind of learn, learnbusiness.
Did you hire people right away?
Not, not right?
No.
It took a, it took a year, likea year or two later.
That same fella, uh, his name'sgood buddy of mine.
He just moved to Fort Collins inSeptember.
Oh, fun.
Um.
But, uh, he, he had a contact inOmni Bond India who was doing

(22:35):
the employee leasing.
Okay.
And, and he's like, you gottacheck this out.
It's only$200 a month per personfull time.
And I was like, I'll take two.
Right?
You know?
And that was, that was, uh, thatwas back in 2002 or 2003, I'm
not sure which, but right aroundthere.
But it was before you could talkto people.
It definitely before video,right?

(22:55):
Oh, over the internet.
Right?
So the, the only real timecommunication you had was
instant message chat.
So we would use like YahooMessenger and we would like type
back and forth and these guyswere not expert typists, right?
I could type like 60 words aminute or whatever.
I'd type my sentence and I'd belike waiting for them to type
back.
And, um, but.
It was really valuable, uh,really valuable to be able to

(23:20):
learn how to work with people inIndia without paying a, a, a, a
big salary, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they would be like, Hey,this is, we're, we're behind
schedule.
I'd just keep going.
Like, this is gonna take twiceas long we thought, I'm just
keep going.
Right.
Just don't stop.
Right.
And, um.
But really the, the, the keything I learned over a process
of years was how to communicatesoftware to requirements to

(23:40):
them.
Yeah.
In a way where they don't haveany questions, right?
Yeah.
They know exactly what to dowhen they follow the
instructions, they deliversoftware.
That's exactly what my customerneeds.
Yeah.
Well, and exploring what yourcustomer exactly needs then
becomes the crux of the climb.
Right?
Like if you can learn reallywell what your customer really
needs and explain it reallywell.

(24:00):
Well, the, the, I would say it'salmost easier to know.
Well, it's easier to know whatthey tell you they want.
That's, that's one thing, right?
Because what they, what theyactually need might be
different.
Oh yeah.
That's a big part of the job isidentifying that these
conflicting requirements, theytell you they want this and they
want that, and you're like, theydon't, they don't match.
Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(24:20):
Um, but, uh, but that's aseparate issue.
But, but once you figure outwhat you want the software to
do, being able to communicatethat to the programmers.
Is is is really valuable.
Yeah.
And that's, uh, I think thatthat's probably one of my core
skill sets is being able tocommunicate software
requirements in an unambiguousway.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
And then.

(24:41):
Kind of just continued the, thejourney from there without too
much change was, was Access acornerstone for a long time?
Um, it sounds like it no longeris No, no.
I don't touch it these days, butyears since I've touched it.
Um, no.
So yeah, so we transitioned awayfrom, from access to SQL Server
and, and because SQL Serversalso a Microsoft product and um,
and then we transitioned awayfrom desktop applications'cause

(25:03):
they're a pain to support Right.
Especially if you're workingremotely.
Okay.
Right.
'cause people are like, I'mhaving this issue on my computer
and I'm like, oh my, I'm like,this is crazy.
We go to web, then all I have todo is make sure that it's
working on the web server.
If they can't pull up a, if theycan't pull up CNN, then it's not
my problem.
Right, right.
So it was very cleardelineation.
So yeah.
So we, we, we, we transitionedfrom Yeah.

(25:23):
Um, my guys basically never didaccess.
Oh, okay.
We pretty much, yeah, we, wetransitioned to Secret Server.
Server very quickly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I would, I, I could dothat.
I was so fast.
It would just, it was crazy.
I'd get these applications, Icould knock it out in like six
hours and the whole applicationwould be done.
Um,'cause access, access, whenyou, when you become an expert

(25:43):
in it, you can developapplications like incredibly
fast.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Like when you say develop anapplication, that's like a, a, a
case model, like pulling thedata out of these.
Places and, and giving that kindof dashboard effect kind of
thing that you're looking for orwhat?
Um, or the searchable It'ssearchable more.

(26:03):
Oh yeah.
Well, so, so Access is a, youknow, a relational database
tool, right?
Yeah.
So, so you can, uh, you, you canstructure the data the way you
want, right?
You can say, look, we want totrack people, we want to track,
uh, you know, these vehicles.
Well, those, those nurses iswhat I was thinking about.
1100 nurses.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Um, so yeah, the, the, uh, andthat's where the software

(26:23):
architecture comes in, right?
Mm-hmm.
Is understanding how do you setup the tables, right?
What, what's the nature of thedata that is, that's the
software architect.
That, that, I mean, is, isreally my, my core skill and
probably the, the thing thatI'm, I'm, I'm best at, I'm
thinking about like the, theColorado Secretary of State
Business Search database andstuff, right?
Oh yeah.

(26:43):
Uhhuh.
Yeah.
It's got all these differentdata points and it's searchable
by different keywords and, youknow, different cities and
regions and all that.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So that's, that's, that'sstructured data right there.
And relational databases run theworld.
Hmm.
I mean, everybody loves to talkabout, you know, the new cool
stuff.
And if you were to go talk to abunch of computer science, uh,

(27:04):
college students, relationaldatabases would not be on the
top of their list.
Right.
Sexy things to learn new stuff.
But they, but they run theworld.
Hmm.
They really run the world.
I mean, every time you go tocheck out at the grocery store,
it, it's, that's all relationaldatabase stuff.
Mm-hmm.
You know, the SKU number, theprice, the, you're gonna
generate the ticket andcalculating the sales tax, all
that stuff.
Oh yeah.
And we just expect it all tojust kind of work.

(27:25):
And it does, I mean, it's, it'sreliable technology.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Um, so like from yourperspective.
Things are changing rapidly.
AI is bringing down developmentcosts and making customization
of software a more approachablething for more companies.
It's, it's going to reduce thecost of developing software

(27:47):
across the industry for everysoftware company out there.
Yeah.
For SaaS companies or forcustom.
Yeah.
It's, it's any, yeah.
The, the, uh, the, except forthe people who, for the poor
people out there that don't knowthat they need to learn this
stuff yesterday.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Um, no, it, it's, to me, I thinkthis ai, uh, revolution is
equivalent to the industrialrevolution in terms of the

(28:09):
impact it's gonna have onsociety.
I, I personally feel that AI isa more important invention, if
you will.
Even if it requires theinternet, it's more important
than the internet.
Hmm.
To me, it's, um, it, it's anabsolute game changer.
It's gonna change our society inways that we cannot foresee
right now.
So.
Yeah, one of the, I was justthinking about like West

(28:31):
Virginia coal miners being laidoff and people saying, well, I
guess they should learn how tocode.
Um, and, uh, but, and'cause thatwas a really safe career choice
for a long time to be a softwarecoder.
Yeah.
Right.
And you can make, you know, 80,a hundred,$200,000 a year being
a coder or whatever.

(28:52):
And now that's probably unsafe,you know, it's, or only, but
only for, probably for fewer,there'll be one, one fifth as
many coders, but they'll beusing AI tools.
Uh, much.
Yeah.
It's really hard.
It's really hard to predict.
Right.
It's really hard to predict.
But the key thing is, is thatthe cost is gonna go down.
Right.
And so as software gets cheaper.

(29:14):
There's gonna be more of it,right?
Supply and demand.
I would think so, yeah.
Right.
So there'll be, you know, thesoftware's just gonna get
embedded into more and moreareas of our life, I think.
Huh?
But where else can you put it?
Like this microphone stand,doesn't need software.
Well, like my, my buddy man,when he goes to the gym now, he,
he takes chat g PT with them.
He's like, Hey, I just did, youknow, three reps at 50 pounds.

(29:35):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, what, what, what should I donext?
Right.
Mm-hmm.
And, which I don't think is a,is a great use of ai, but Right.
Um, but it will be, and, and asTheis gets smarter Right.
You know, they're, they're gonnahave more and more context to,
to answer those questions.
One of my friends was justtelling me how he uses it for
cooking.
Yeah.
Recipes.
Hey, Chad, GBT I've got.

(29:56):
Broccoli, asparagus, you know,carrots, chicken thighs and
mozzarella cheese.
Can you pull me up a quickrecipe?
And that, that's, it's a greatidea.
And, and personally, I wouldtell anybody that to use it as
much as you can because using AIas a skill.
Hmm.
It's, it, don't think of it as,as just, uh, something that it,
it's not magic.

(30:16):
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
When you, when you understandwhat, uh, how it's built, what
an, some questions it can answerreally, really well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Other questions?
It can't, and the more you useai, the more you'll understand
where it can, what, whatquestions it can answer.
Really ask value.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and will that change overtime?
I think probably too.

(30:37):
Well, as the AI gets better.
Yeah.
Um, but.
Well, for, for where we areright now, I think I, I, I, you
know, people, I mean, you takebookkeepers, right?
Uh, you could look atbookkeepers, you could look at,
uh, legal assistance, right?
Um, AI is gonna impact all youlook at.
I mean, the poor people who workin call centers, they're like,

(30:59):
they're on the chopping block,right?
For sure.
Yeah.
And so when you, when you put acall center out of business
Yeah.
AI knows all the instructionsfor that device.
Exactly, exactly.
I mean, it can do the voice, it,it has, it's gonna have
libraries of how to answer allthese questions.
These call centers are goingaway now.
I don't know what those peopleare gonna do.
Yeah.
Um, that, that's, that's myconcern is, is I really see AI

(31:22):
as having a big impact in termsof impacting the labor needs.
The, the, the, the labor force.
And, and yeah.
And it, the, the advancementsare coming so rapidly.
They're coming so rapidly that,um, we don't have much time to
react.
Like take that person to thecall center, like, you know.
Um, maybe they still have a jobtoday.
They need to go back to schoolright now.

(31:42):
Yeah.
And figure out where they'regonna retool.
My buddy of mine's a massagetherapist.
I told him You're in good shape,right?
Yeah.
Um, you know, the nurses havemore job security than the, than
the physicians.
Now.
The physicians, when you look atwhat, what parts of their jobs
are gonna be automated, it'sgonna be reading the akg, EKGs,
um, uh, and, and, and other, youknow, reading x-rays and things

(32:03):
like that.
Those, those are applicationswhere AI can really excel.
Yeah.
Whereas the nurse, you know,doing that injection, you know,
she has much more job security.
So I think it's important foreverybody to think about, uh,
how, what, what role AI is gonnaplay in their field.
Right.
And if you're a bookkeeper, forinstance, I love, I love this
example bookkeeper.
Yeah.
Please.
Um.

(32:25):
I mean, a, a lot of, you knowwhat, what if, if bookkeepers
are looking at transactions andlearning how, you know, they
understand how to put thattransaction into accounting
system.
Yeah.
That's informa.
You know, that type of knowledgecan, is, is readily, uh, doable
by ai.
Right.
Um, and so my message tobookkeepers is learn how to use
ai.
Right.
That's how you prevent AI fromcrushing you.

(32:47):
Yeah.
Is learning how to use it andbeing the guy who, who goes to
your boss and says, Hey, I can,I can do more bookkeeping
because now I understand how touse AI to do it.
I don't wanna raise.
Yeah, exactly.
Right, because your productivityis going up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If you use it effectively, butthen, I don't know, it's a, it

(33:07):
seems like a potential trap forhumanity of.
And I guess not because, we'll,probably just like the writing
of those prompts, right?
Getting more creative of writingreally good prompts means that
humanities should continue toexpand itself.
I just worry that if we don'thave to think anymore for
ourselves, we just will stopthinking.

(33:28):
Well, um, yeah.
So let me, let me, let me tellyou this story, right?
So, uh, we had this road work onharmony, right?
Yeah.
Just a, just a, a week or twoago.
Um.
Google Maps.
Alright.
I'm taking my son to his, hislesson.
My wife's in the car.
Yeah.
The Google Maps telling me totake harmony.
Right.
I'm like, I'm not takingharmony.
You can't trick me.
Dumbass.
Right?
So I get on Trivi, sure enough,man, I hit a roadblock and we

(33:50):
get up, end up getting thereeven later.
And my wife is like, you shut,have listen to Google Maps,
right?
When you, when we have systemsthat are smarter than we are,
we're gonna, you have no choicereally.
But to listen.
I mean, if you don't listen,you're making a poor choice.
Yeah.
And so you basically lose youragency just by having access to
a system that is smarter thanyou are.

(34:11):
And as that continues, um, the,when, when we're, when we're.
Not the ones that we're not,when we're not the smartest
people in the room.
Right.
You lose your power.
Right.
And, uh, you fast forward 10years and people are gonna be
asking ai who to vote for?
Well, who controls the ai?
Right.
You know, that's what policydecisions should we make if we

(34:33):
don't think.
Yeah.
And so, um, so I'm reallyconcerned that, that we lose our
agency.
Um, so you're, you're, you're alittle scared too.
Oh, and it's, well, you know,with a Chinese curse, may you
live in interesting times.
Right?
Right.
We live in very interestingtimes and, uh, no, I, I mean,
I'm grateful for, for every day.
And, and, and to, to be able tosee this unfold before me, I is,

(34:55):
is just a, it, it's such a, uh,I don't know, I don't know the
right word, um, right.
Calamity.
It would probably not be theright one, but it, it is very,
very interesting times that welive in.
And, uh, now, uh, one wouldthink that we could thrive as a,
as a species because of this.
Huge amount of applied leverage.

(35:18):
Right.
Like even the internet one wouldthink.
And it has, I would say thathumanity is thriving a lot
better than it was before theinternet came along some, right.
I don't know.
Ish.
Well, I, I've thought there'sless people starving on a gross
basis.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I mean, no doubt apercentage wise.

(35:38):
'cause we've got a little morepeople now too.
For sure.
For sure.
No, I mean, uh, to, to me, youknow, an analogy that, that I, I
think, I think the homo sapiens,I mean, we're, we're approaching
the end of our species actually.
You do.
I do.
Yeah.
And, and the analogy analogy,like, we're here to create this
AI thing almost.
Well it's, it's, it's gonna besmarter than us.
Right.
If it's not already right.

(35:59):
Yeah.
It's not, it's not as smarterthan us right now, but it will
be.
And because the list of thingsthat computers do better than
people is only getting bigger.
Right.
Right, right.
Um, and, and, and to me, I seean analogy.
I, I was fascinated to learnthis theory that, uh,
homoerectus uh, a precursorspecies to humanity.
Okay.
Yeah.
Um, domesticated fire.

(36:20):
And when they, once theydomesticated fire, that, when,
when they learned how to cook,they were able to get more
calories from their food.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that, uh, prompted a largerbrain.
Right.
That basically turned'em intohomo sapiens.
It turned'em into homo sapiens.
Yeah.
And that was the end ofHomoerectus.
And they, they lived on thisplanet for 2 million years.
Interesting.
Um, yeah.
So, um, so I, I, you know, I'm,I'm con I I, I wouldn't be

(36:44):
surprised to see the same thinghappen again.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what that new species islike, is probably what it takes
a village to decipher, Isuppose.
Yeah.
And whether it's biological or,I mean, I, I don't know.
Yeah.
I, I mean, uh, you get allthese, well, the same thing
about homo sapiens though iseven if, like, I guess that they

(37:05):
would just change or die outRight.
Or whatever, because like we canjust.
It's like I got YouTube videosright now where people just go
live in Alaska and they can likehunt moose in the wintertime and
smoke some of it and they, youknow, they don't really even
need all this technology stuffto have a fulfilling life.
Sure.
No.
Right.

(37:25):
Or, you know, living in a beachhouse on the shore at, in Costa
Rica, I catch one fish a day.
I'm a pretty happy guy.
I'm good.
Right, right.
No, I love that.
I love that.
So it's an interesting, and thatdoesn't power the stock market.
Right, right.
Or, or, or buy jet liners.
Yeah.
Or put on, you know, Taytayconcerts.

(37:47):
Yeah.
I don't know.
It is an interesting thing,like, I suppose you do move into
something else.
Um, but it'll be a few, fewgenerations.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Definitely, definitely.
Uh, quite a few unless,probably, unless, unless AI just
killed us all.
Thanks.
Thanks for making me.
Bye.
Yeah, it's gonna be interesting.

(38:08):
Um, I'm feeling like, uh, wecould take a short potty break
Okay.
And then come into the latersegments.

(39:02):
And we're back.
Um, so what I was thinking aboutjust now was that, you know, if
you look at like, the history ofbuildings and people and stuff,
like in China, tell who thebosses of the.
Seasons were based on who hadthe biggest buildings and stuff
like Google, right.
SpaceX has got a pretty bigplace these days and stuff,

(39:25):
right?
Sure.
And, uh, and in the past it'sbeen churches, you know, when
they built those huge cathedralsand stuff like that, but that
was like 8% of a nation'sresources for Right.
A hundred years.
Right.
And so there was, those were thebosses of the world, the
hospitals that we've beenbuilding, the university
buildings we've been buildinglately.

(39:46):
Although it seems like it'sgonna take some trickery to be
the bosses of the world for theuniversities for the next a
hundred years.
I don't know, like with thatsuper smart ai, like what do
universities really do?
It's, it, it's, uh, well, I tellyou on that, on that point, I,
I, I love, uh, learning fromfrom GPT.

(40:07):
I don't know.
Have you ever had a conversationwith it?
Like, yeah, I use Rockmorepersonally, but, okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
Um, but it's super fun.
It it is.
Exploring even deep topics andwhatever else.
Exactly, exactly.
So I love going out for a walkand just having a, and, and
asking it, you know, what I needto be doing, how this technology
works, what I need to bestudying, what these different
words mean.

(40:27):
Interesting.
And, and, and just diving in,um, yeah, I mean, it is just
such a wealth of knowledge.
I mean, it feels like everythingthat's ever been learned is in
these tools, right?
Yeah.
And you ask the questions, it,it, it, it if, again, so are
those the next bosses of theworld is like the AI companies,
whether it be open AI orwhatever, it, it, because that

(40:49):
battle's not settled yet either,right?
Like, who's the boss of thebosses?
Right.
Right.
No, it, it, it, that's a goodquestion.
I don't know the answer.
I don't know the answer, but, sodo you use chat a lot?
Is that your primary go-to?
I do.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
Um, it seems like what my teamfavors the most as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, no, I appreciate it and Iappreciate the different models
that they have.
Um, yeah, the different tuningskind of.

(41:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But to be honest with you, Istill feel like a beginner and,
and, and I imagine everybodylistening to us feels like a
beginner.
I mean,'cause this stuff is justchanging so fast, right?
I mean Right.
Uh, there's, there's new modelscoming out all the time, new co
I mean, the, the applicationsare increasing.
Yeah.
Um, everything is just changingso quickly.
Right.
Well, and it's all free.

(41:33):
Uh, they're not free 20 bucks amonth or something for Chad GD
Pro free for a hundred bucks amonth or something.
Right.
Like, it's compared to Comcasttrying to charge you a hundred
bucks, 150 bucks a month fortheir selection of TV shows that
you gotta just sit there andslog through, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
No, and, and in terms of thevalue, I mean, I don't, for me,

(41:53):
I can't afford not to spend thatmoney.
Sure, sure.
Um, makes sense.
Um, what would you do if youwere a kid these days?
Like if you were that.
An 18-year-old kid that your dadwas telling to go to college in
those days?
Like what?
Like, well, my, my, I've got,my, my older son is 17 years
old.
Okay.
Yeah.
And, and I've been telling him,uh, I, I've mentioned him a few
times that look, you know, uh,he really needs to study this

(42:15):
ai, but he's not, I maybe he,maybe he feels a little
overwhelmed.
Yeah.
Um, but, uh, but he's not, he'snot jumping on the bandwagon.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He wants to do his own thing, soI gotta, I gotta give him that
space and let him do his ownthing.
The royalty comic book authorstoo.
Well, and my other son isplaying bassoon, you know, and,
and saxophone.
I'm like, oh, that, that, youknow, great.

(42:36):
Go for it.
Yeah.
They can't do that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And, and people, people wannahave that human connection,
right?
Yeah.
You see somebody playing themusic up on stage.
I mean, that's, yeah.
That's different than justhaving to come over your
headphones.
Totally, totally.
Yeah.
It could be the most amazingmusic ever over your headphones,
but.
If you've actually been to aconcert Yeah.
By that musician, it sounds allthe better.

(42:57):
Exactly.
Yeah.
It really does.
Yeah.
Let's talk about your family alittle bit.
Sure.
Um, where did you find your wifealong the way?
Yeah, so, uh, it was after I gotoutta the military in 2001.
Uh, it was a few months later,um, that, that I met her and,
and she was at Tripler at thesame hospital that, that I had
exited, exited from, but I wasstill living on Oahu.
Yeah, yeah.

(43:17):
And, uh, so we met online and,uh, and yeah, she's, uh, she was
just so beautiful and aphysician and, and, uh, you
know, we started from that.
We fair.
Um, and, uh, yeah, we just hitit off.
She's, she's, uh, Punjabi.
Oh.
And, uh, so she was, she was,uh, uh Oh, so's part of the
Indian Connect too.

(43:37):
Exactly, exactly.
Yeah.
My, it was so funny'cause, uh,one of the, one of the thought
leaders I follow, he's, he's,uh.
He believes in reincarnation.
He's like, you were an Indian ina prior life.
Right.
Of all these you don't have aresidence.
Exactly.
Exactly.
That's cool.
Yeah.
So we were actually, um, marriedin, uh, in Chunga, in, in India,

(43:57):
in, uh, Northern India.
Oh wow.
And then we did our, ourhoneymoon up in Shimmin, the
Himalayas.
Okay.
And, uh, so that was, that wasgood.
Pretty neat that back in 2004 wegot married.
Um, yeah.
What a different experience asfar as, uh, being able to be
there, you know?
Oh, yeah.
Like, and, and be connected tothere.
Yeah.
As well.
Kind of.

(44:18):
Now I've always been fascinatedby India.
Um, they're both their, what doI say?
You know,'cause they had I guessthe blessing of British
colonization.
Yeah.
Even though it was probably feltkind of yucky for a long time or
whatever.
Right.
But nowadays, like it, withoutthat, they would be a much

(44:38):
different place.
Yeah.
I probably wouldn't haveemployees there.
Because they wouldn't knowEnglish.
Right, right.
Which I've never learned, andthey wouldn't have entered the
modern world nearly so fully asa, as a nation kind of.
Yeah.
Yeah.
'cause they modern modernizedprobably even faster than China
in some ways.
Yeah, yeah.
Although not really becausethey, they had that foundation

(44:59):
of industry and of kind oforganization that the British
brought there.
Uh, it's such a, it's such ablessing and a curse.
Kind of a, a element of, ofhistory.
Yeah, for sure.
So, um, then you have two kids.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, uh, so yeah, the, uh,Benjamin and Julius, so the
older one is 17, Ben and Juliusis, uh, 14.

(45:22):
They're going into, uh, ninthgrade and their senior year at
Fossil Ridge.
So you guys had a few years ofbeing married before the kids
came along and you weretraveling elsewhere, places from
Hawaii too?
Yeah, well, we, we had decidedto have kids and um, and then my
buddy, uh.
His wife had just delivered andhe said, you gotta come over to
the hospital.
So I went over to the hospital.

(45:43):
He let me hold his, you know,brand new infant child.
Okay.
And when I got home, I'm like,honey, you gotta get back on the
pill.
No way.
I have not ready, I'm not readyfor this.
It was really, it was a hugereality, reality check there.
And that was a really gooddecision because after we left
Hawaii, we went to Germany andwe lived in Germany for two
years.

(46:03):
Okay.
And.
If we had had a child there, itjust would've been really
difficult because we had nofamily in there.
Um, but without the kids, it wasgreat.
I bought the BMW on the Audubon.
Yeah, exactly, man.
Going out to nice dinners.
You're married to a doctor,right?
Oh, we, we drove, we drove allover, all over Western Europe

(46:23):
to, you know, from Amsterdamwhen you traveled London, Paris
Oh, cool.
And Italy and, and Austria.
And, uh, and, and it's tough todo that when you have a child in
tow.
Yeah.
So, so that was a good two yearsright there.
Nice.
And then when did you actuallystart your family?
Um, yeah, so she, she gotpregnant in, in Europe and then
we moved to Maryland where Benwas born.
Oh, okay.
And, uh, yeah, he was born atBethesda, uh, Naval, uh, medical

(46:47):
center where the president istreated.
Sure, yep.
Yep.
And uh, and then we moved to SanAntonio, and that's where Julius
was born.
Okay.
So we lived in San Antonio forfive years.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, uh, what an internationaland multiregional.
Family.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, you've had splashes inthe east coast, kind of right in
the heart of where all thethings happened, right?

(47:08):
Yeah.
And then checked out, were youin Oahu the whole time?
In Hawaii, I guess?
Um, yeah, so, so I, I, I, Ifirst got into Hawaii in 90 98
and I lived there till 2005 whenwe went to Germany.
Yeah.
And then, um, and then, and thenher career ended up taking her
back there in 2015.
Okay.
Um, and then we thought it wouldonly be for three years, but,

(47:29):
uh, it ended up being anotherseven years.
Oh, wow.
So that's, uh, that's kind ofwhere all the stuff is happening
in Hawaii though.
Did you guys sneak off to thequiet islands?
Not a whole bunch.
Not with, with the kids.
It's just, uh, you know, it's alittle different.
I mean, it's, it's probably morelike a regular life like.
Americans think about you gotskid and cool and school and
baseball games and Yeah.

(47:51):
You know, there's still beachesand snorkeling or whatever if
you want to, but it's adifferent Hawaii than most of us
think about.
Well, Hawaii is, there's adynamic there that, um, and I
don't fault anybody for this,but the locals, you know, so
much of the population of Oahuin particular, and that's where
I spent all my time.
So much of the population there,maybe 20% is, is affiliated with

(48:11):
the military.
Right.
And these are people who comefor two or three years and then
they leave.
Right.
Totally transitory.
Exactly.
And so the locals, I think outtaself-preservation kind of wall
them off.
Yeah.
You know, it'd be like, youknow, you do your thing, we'll
do our thing.
Right.
And, um, yeah.
So, so that's the dynamic there.
Um, the, the, I think the thingI found most difficult about

(48:33):
living there is just the factthat you have to get on a plane
to go anywhere.
Yeah.
Even to the next island.
Even to the next island.
And there was a ferry servicethat was running in Hawaii for a
while, but that got shut down.
Um, the rental car companies,the airlines didn't like the
ferry service.
Oh, right.
So they all ganged up againstit.
We took a ferry from, uh, Mauito Le Lena.

(48:56):
And what year was that?
Uh, 2023.
Oh really?
Yeah, we were there for our 20thanniversary.
Oh.
Huh.
So we just flew in and out ofawa.
Oh.
I had it.
But otherwise Okay, okay.
Oh, so pretty recent.
Okay.
But yeah, there was a, it was anice little short ferry, you
know.
Okay.
But yeah, it was, well in Laa isitself kind of a, some sort of a

(49:16):
monopoly.
The whole place kind of, Iforget who has it, but yeah.
Only a few people kind ofcontrol that whole island.
Yeah, yeah.
No, the, the, the politicsthere, the leadership is not,
well, I, I all, lemme just saythis is that being here in Fort
Collins, I feel like the city'sreally well run.
And I, and I appreciate that.
Yeah.
And where did you grow up?

(49:36):
Grow up?
I, I grew up in Maryland.
Oh, you did?
Yeah.
In West, yeah.
Uh, town called Westminster,Northwest of Baltimore,
Maryland.
Okay.
Interesting.
That's a, uh, for some reason itfeels like you got a bit of a
southern twang.
Maybe that's the time in Texasthere or something.
No, that's Maryland.
Really.
It's different.
Few people pick it up, but yougot a good ear.

(49:58):
Um, that's interesting.
How is Maryland like?
Um, well, yeah, yeah.
Growing up there, I mean, I, Ihad a great childhood.
Um.
And, uh, you know, I, I don'tknow, it, it's kind of tough for
me to answer that'cause I, I, Ipretty much spent my whole
childhood there.
So, like, in terms of how itcompares to other places, I'm
not, I'm not sure, you know, interms of, of growing up.

(50:19):
But, um, but, uh, no, I havefond, fond memories of know I
had a good childhood.
Okay.
Yeah.
Cool.
Tell me about your kids a littlebit.
What were there.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, so, so, uh, so Julius,he, he, uh, he, he, he's
definitely into the music and,um, okay.
And it was a, it was a few yearsago when, when I offered to take
him to get his hair cut, andhe's like, no, thank you.

(50:42):
And it's been the same answerever since.
So he is got, he's got longhair.
It comes down to his shouldersnow.
Gotcha, gotcha.
And, and me, I've always had atight military cut.
And is he a, like bass guitar orHe is drums or just, just
bassoon or The bassoon.
Bassoon, yes.
I'm sorry.
And now he's, he's switchingover to a saxophone.
Okay.
So he's, he's gonna be, um, he,he, he's gonna be participating

(51:02):
with the Fossil Ridge Marchingband and he's putting the time
in for that.
That's pretty cool.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, uh, yeah.
And, and he, he makes his ownres on the b with the bassoon.
Oh, you have the double res.
And, and, and it, it'sinteresting.
Um, but there's not a goodsupply of those in the
marketplace, so.
Huh.
So he has to like, make his ownres and he, he, we got him the
tools and stuff, and, and hisbassoon instructor actually

(51:23):
taught him how to make, um, makethe reads.
That's fascinating.
He might be a craftsman of somesort.
Maybe he'll, uh, make violins orbassoons or something someday.
Yeah.
Well, he also enjoys computergames and, and he was actually
interested in learning how tocode.
So, um, I started getting himinto teach him how to, to write
some C sharp code.
There you go.
So, so that's good.
And then, um, Benjamin, uh,yeah, he's 17 now.

(51:45):
He's, he's smart.
And, uh, I got him into chess.
So he's got a, he's got a chessinstructor now.
Oh, okay.
And, uh, he plays, plays apretty good game of chess.
Oh.
And, uh, it's funny, like I didtoo, like when I was 10.
Oh, okay.
And now when I play anybody thatplays it all, it's like, it's.
Just me crying, you know,quickly.
Really?
Yeah.
Because people like learn allthese different approaches and

(52:09):
if you do that, like, I don'tknow, it's, it's cool how kids
can play and learn and it isn'tjust kind of the, the logic of
it.
Like, it seemed like it was whenI was learning.
Yeah.
Well there's, uh, well, I, Icould talk about chess quite a
bit.
I, I, I, I had, um, an objectiveto be, become a chess master Oh,

(52:31):
really?
For, for years.
Okay.
And, uh, I just actually justgave up the game in September.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
Um, I, I, I gave it up to putmore time towards my business.
Okay.
And.
Well, really the, probably thebigger reason is I felt like I
was giving it more than it wasgiving me Mm.
Because I was studying for hoursevery day.
Wow.
And, uh, well, that are, or thatare just playing games and too
many of Right.

(52:51):
But, um, but yeah, there's, uh,and I guess you didn't become a
master.
No, no, no.
I, you might come back to it.
You never know, but, well, it,it's the, the, the, the
knowledge and being able to seethe patterns.
It's not like riding a bike whenyou take time away from the
game, you get rusty.
Oh, really?
Oh, yeah.
You gotta, you gotta keep thatedge sharp, huh.
With constant study.

(53:12):
Interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Huh.
I wouldn't have thought that, Iwould've thought that it was
like ingrained almost.
And those patterns.
Yeah.
I mean, so it's not like I'm abeginner.
Right.
Right, right, right, right.
But, but if you wanna like, keepthat edge, stay at the sharp
edge.
Yeah.
If you, if you gotta, if youwanna keep a sharp edge, you
gotta study every day.
Interesting.
Yeah.
You got it.
I've enjoyed podcasts with like,grandma, chess players and stuff

(53:34):
like that, of them talkingabout.
How they think and stuff, but itdoesn't really compute for me.
Right?
'cause I don't think that way,at least not in chess.
Well, it just, it just takes, itjust takes hours of practice
every day.
I mean, to get to the levelwhere these grand Masters are
playing, you need to be studyingsix hours a day at least, you
know, to be able to play at thatlevel.
And it just, every day for therest of you, I mean, for as long

(53:56):
as you're playing competitively,right?
That seems like more of aretirement activity, but
probably you're a little slowerwhen you're older too.
Exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
No, it's, it's, uh, easier toplay.
Well, when you're a littleyounger, did your kids get good
enough to beat you and that'swhy you quit?
Um, no.
No.
I can, I can still beat'em.
Okay.
That's good.
That's good.
On a good day.

(54:16):
But, uh, I don't know how muchlonger that's gonna, I have to,
I have to work at it, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because I'm not studying.
He, he is.
Right.
So he's getting better and I'mnot, so, so, you know what he's
gonna do as his next step?
He's, he's not graduating.
He's gonna One more year left.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's got one more year left.
Yeah.
And, um, I don't know.
I don't know.
He doesn't know what he's gonnado.
I don't know what he's gonna do.
And.
Um, but you know, when I look atthe route that I took from

(54:39):
dropping outta college,enlisting in the village,
bartender, restaurant manager,wannabe.
Yeah.
And then going to school andthen Yeah.
Coming back into the army andthen figuring out what I want.
I like, I was like 29 years oldbefore I figured out I wanted to
do databases.
Yeah.
So, I mean, my wife is, my wifewas the complete opposite.
'cause she went from high schoolstraight into college, straight

(55:01):
into medical school, like didn'tmiss a beat.
Yes.
Um, and so we're, we're verymuch opposites in that way,
which is a very traditionalpathway for some really smart
Indian kids.
Yeah.
We're a little bit like, I, Ihate to be a stereotype, but
that's a, you know, a commontrajectory.
There's a lot of amazing doctorsthat have Yeah.

(55:21):
Gone for the education path, youknow.
Well, well, yeah.
She just, she just hastremendous discipline and, and
so I just admire the hell at herfor that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, more so than me.
Do you wanna play the game?
Sure.
Pong ball game?
Sure.
So your job is to, oh, sometimesthere's a prize you didn't bring
a prize to today, did you?

(55:42):
Did not.
We'll make the prize be a$25gift card to Silver Grill.
Alright.
Uh, that works.
Uh, because I think that's, isthat, did we meet at Silver
Grill?
No, we just had copy that now.
Yeah.
Well, and you can buy me lunchat some too for covering here.
Okay.
Alright.
So pick three balls.
Okay.
And then one, uh, one of theanswers to one of these
questions is going to winsomebody that, oh, you have to

(56:05):
actually keep the numbers.
I'll let you hold'em.
Okay.
Um, gimme your first number,please.
All right.
First number is three.
How do you approach work lifebalance?
Well, it sounds like giving upchess is part of it lately for
you.
Um, yeah, for me, work lifebalance is never, um, I I I've
probably balanced more towardslife than work.

(56:27):
Yeah.
For the most part.
Uh, um.
So, um, try to stay sharp andyou communicate with your
clients and with your team andYeah.
They write the stuff.
So, so I, you know, I'm, I'm abeliever in, in systems theory,
constraint theory.
Mm-hmm.
And, and any system, there'sgonna be one component that has

(56:49):
the least throughput in thatsystem.
Okay.
And my goal is to never be thatcomponent.
Okay.
I like it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, because when, yeah, so, so,um, I don't avoid responsibility
Yeah.
But I apply it directly whenneeded.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, um, making sure I got enoughpeople in India that can do the
work and, and, um, uh, yeah.

(57:10):
Keeping myself out that notbeing the constraint.
Yeah.
And, and, and being able todelegate and, and, and trust
people and I, that, that's beenhuge.
Um, yeah.
So I've, I've got the, the teamI have in India, I, I, uh, uh,
I'm just so blessed to havethem.
I've, I've got like, right,you've got like a super, super
power over there.
11 people over there.
Okay.
And, um.

(57:31):
Uh, eight of them have been withme for more than 10 years.
Wow.
And most of the rest of are, uh,have been with me for like more
than 15 years.
Oh, wow.
So, uh, so we had to, we justhave a deep, long lasting
relationship and everybody knowstheir job.
And, uh, a lot of times theemails come to me and they go to
India and I'm, I'm just like, myguys got that.
And I don't even have to, Ijust, I, I just un uncheck it

(57:51):
and, and move on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then they handle it.
Have you always been therainmaker for.
Yeah.
Your company.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I have to do all So finding therelationships and the, the
demand Yeah.
Side.
Well, I, I've been reallyblessed that way'cause I'm not
any kind of genius marketer oranything.
Right.
But when we get a client, uh, wekeep'em for a long time.
Yeah.
Uh, like most of my clients havebe with me for more than five

(58:13):
years.
We have one client that's beenwith us for 20 years, and we've
only been in business for 24.
Wow.
And, uh, so having longrelationships with my clients
too has been very important.
So.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So my, my, my clients understandus, my, my employees do and
Yeah.
They understand your clients.
Right.
They, they know what to do and,and, and so I, I am able to, and
they, and then they're workingat night.
Right.
And so, right.

(58:34):
It's, it's, so, I'm, I'm asleepWhen they're working, it's not
like, here's a deliverables.
Exactly.
Oh, those look great.
You wake up in the morning andyou're like, oh, the donuts have
been made already.
And Yeah, I just, I'd neverthought of it that way.
The benefit of that, like, timeto make the donuts.
Oh, the donuts are made.
Yeah, exactly.
No, when I come in, I see allthe emails and you know, my, my
branch manager, he, he, he, allmy clients know him by name and

(58:56):
he writes'em back and he's like,this has been done.
This has been done.
Yeah, exactly.
Oh, dang.
That's really interesting.
Yeah.
What a fascinating lifestylebusiness model that you've been
Yeah.
Entertaining.
I, I, I think, um, but I think Ikind of went too far in that
direction.
Mm.
And I actually had a fellow in,in, in, uh, San Antonio I worked
with for 10 years.

(59:16):
Okay.
And when I moved here from, fromHawaii, we had three and a half
months where our stuff was likestuck at the port in San
Francisco, trying, waiting toget it to, to Fort Collins.
But I actually took a couplemonths off of work and, and he
was able to run the show.
Yeah.
And what I found after thatexperience is that I really
enjoy the engagement that I.

(59:37):
I really, I enjoy thestimulation, the intellectual
stimulation.
And now I'm at a point in mylife where I'm really pushing
the business more.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and so I'd say overallI manage a work-life balance
very well.
Yeah.
Cool.
Next number.
Alright.
24.

(59:58):
What's the most durable businessrelationship you've had?
Oh, yeah.
That, that would have to bewith, uh, equine Network.
Well, it's actually the, thecompany, it's actually a brand
US rider.
Okay.
'cause, uh, I've had that clientsince 2004 and, uh, the
company's been sold twice andand they're still a client.
Yeah.
That's really cool.
Yeah.
Um, and is it a personalrelationship or they just know

(01:00:22):
that you're the software guy?
When we need stuff for our, soyeah, it's a custom CRM.
Okay.
And so we, we wrote a CRM thatenables the members to join
online and renew theirmembership.
Okay.
And, um, and they, they havesome, you know, they had some
rules that they put in, like,yeah, yeah.
You know, hey, we, we can haveassociates, but only one of'em
can be a spouse and the otherones can be children, but once

(01:00:43):
they hit 25, yada, yada, yada.
Yeah.
So you got these rules.
So, um, you know, over theyears, the, the, the system has
just evolved, right.
And as it's grown.
The opportunities have grown.
Sure.
And then they innovate andthey're like, Hey, we want to
this, wanna this, do this, this,and this, this, this.
Yeah.
And, and, and that's reallywhat's worked for me is having
companies that grow as clients.
That's cool.
Because as they grow, theirneeds change.

(01:01:05):
They wanna respond to newopportunities, new challenges.
Yeah.
And we can respond rapidly.
Well, and, uh, selfishly, notselfishly, but like there's no
off the shelf, nothing that cando all the things that you've
built for them now.
And, and all their customers,like are familiar with the
interface.
Right.
Right, right.
They all know it's security.
It's like, it's broke.

(01:01:25):
Don't you know?
Why would you go and fix it?
Oh, I've got a, a businessdevelopment strategy for you is,
is find companies that are kindof like some of your existing
customers that are using crappyYeah.
Websites and technologies nowand just offer them more of a.
More like Bob has over here.
Well that's kind of like theSaaS model, right?

(01:01:46):
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But you want a littlecustomization on each one,
otherwise, yeah.
Why wouldn't they just buy it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I get it.
Last number.
Okay.
The last number here is, uh,hold it.
This one?
Yep.
26.
26.
What's your go-to way to unwindafter a stressful day?
Uh, I loved going out for a walkat night.

(01:02:07):
And when, when, especially whenthe stars are out.
Hmm.
I mean, I live down by twin siloand, uh, okay.
You know, when the, um, I, thestars are out, I, I love going
out for walks at night.
Yeah.
And I've done it enough towhere, uh, let, lemme share
this.
Is, is, uh.
I had a realization one day.

(01:02:28):
Okay.
Um, because I would always goout at the same time at night.
Okay.
And I'm used to seeing theconstellation there.
And then I noticed that theconstellation was in a different
place a few months ago.
Yeah.
And I had that sensation ofmoving that the earth was
moving.
Right.
And I knew the direction theearth was going through space in
the same way that when you arein a car and you watch the tree

(01:02:50):
goes by, you know, the car'sgoing in the opposite direction.
Sure.
And um, and now I'm at the pointwhere when I look up at the
night sky, I can see theplanet's in motion.
Like I know when I see Mars, Iknow it's headed.
Oh really?
Uh, and you know, if you'refacing South, it's headed to the
left.
Yeah.
Um, and, and be able to, youknow, see the, uh, basically be

(01:03:11):
able to visualize the orbitalplane.
Yeah.
Um, by being able to see kindasome of that data visualization
you were talking about earlierin your life.
Yeah.
Well, it's more of, it's justabout having the imagination.
Yeah.
And when you, when you see theplanets and the planets
basically always show up in, inpretty much the same Yeah.
Yeah.
Between the same set of stars.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I mean, and it was somebodykind of like you that originally

(01:03:32):
noticed like, oh, Vita just goesalong this track here, actually.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And, and it's actually not aflat earth, the sun out there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so yeah.
That's, that's what I reallyenjoy is, is understanding the
way, the way the earth isspinning, the way the, the
planets are going across thesky, the, the moon and, and
yeah, I just, so that's, that'show IAnd, that's pretty cool.

(01:03:54):
We go camping quite a bit up atRed Feather area.
Oh, I love it.
Which is great.
Star watching up there.
Yeah.
And we've definitely noticedlike.
Oh, there's like, what's that?
Uh, Orion's belt.
Belt.
Ryan's belt, yeah.
Is always an easy marker for meto find.
It's like, sure.
Well, it's here.
It was just over there like itseemed like a few weeks ago.
Like, what's, why is he movingaround like that or whatever.

(01:04:15):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, and I don't know if I'maccurate about that, but even
the planet's moving around and,and whatnot, but I haven't What
built a working model of it inmy head.
I've noticed.
Yeah.
Right.
So it's a, it's a, it's a, it'sa consistency.
It's a progress consistency,right?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So I go out for a walk justabout every night.
Yeah.
Cool.
Is it like a 9:00 PM kind ofthing after those guys?

(01:04:39):
Well, that's, you know, I lovewinter time.
Properly dark, you know, becausesix seven o o'clock at night,
the stars are already out.
I don't have to say it becauseI, I like, I like to wait until
it's so cold.
Right, right.
So, yeah, in the summertime yougotta stay up late at night and
I'm trying to like, keep aregular bed schedule, you know,
getting sleep at a regular timethese days.
That's interesting thing.
You're like, well, I gotta getmy star walk in.
Yeah.
That's cool.
Well, we're gonna have that bethe prize.

(01:05:00):
A, a nighttime walk.
And I think I would encourage,uh, my wife and I used to do it
on a pretty regular basis, youknow,'cause that was the time
when we finally had enough timeto take the dog for a walk.
Okay.
We're old town Fort Collins, sowe don't get very great stars.
Yeah.
Too often.
Yeah.
Um, a little more, a little morelight, uh, pollution down there.

(01:05:21):
But, um, it is something.
Have you ever, have you ever,um, walked around this city
during a snowstorm at night?
Yeah.
It's like it's lit up the whole,there's like so bright there.
It is.
So bright.
It feels like it's daytime,which is, so when, when they
came out with the LED lightsback in the day, they were like,
oh, we can save all this money.

(01:05:44):
But ultimately they just madeevery city way brighter.
Yeah.
Uh, in Fort Collins is one ofthem too.
That's why it's so bright.
Yeah.
They've got all these streetlights that shine down.
Right.
Uh, especially and then when thesnow is fresh snow on the
ground, it's like the whole townjust glows.
It just glows.
Exactly.
No, exactly.
No, it's pretty cool.
No, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm a big fanof like dark space places.

(01:06:05):
Right?
Yeah.
And, and, uh, so anyway, I gettheir newsletter and I think I,
I sent'em some money, but interms of participating more
concretely Yeah.
With the dark sky movement,yeah.
I'm not there.
But it's definitely somethingthat I have that, that carries
my sympathies.
What are your, like big drivingpassions?
Um, oh, well my, my passionabsolutely is focus.

(01:06:27):
Okay.
Um, so I had an experience, uh,back in 2017 that was, uh, very
emotional for me.
Uh, and I found myself just, uh,in my mind going back to that
experience over and over andover again, hundreds of times a
day.
Okay.
And, um, and, and that getsdistressing.
And I remember thinking tomyself, well, when I'm dead, I
won't have to think about thisanymore.

(01:06:47):
Yeah.
And it was a painful enoughexperience that I went and
looked for a solution and Ifound it.
And IFI found it with a, with anauthor, a speaker, thought
leader, uh, Don de Ponti.
Okay.
And, um, and, and he published abook back in 22 called The Power
of Unwavering Focus.
And so, um, so I read that and,and that was not my first

(01:07:10):
introduction to him.
I actually met him back in 2015.
Um, and then I, he had onlinecourses and he has an app and I
went through and I did all hiscourses and things like that.
Okay.
Yeah.
Um, and, and maybe thatcoursework that I did on the app
kind of like laid thefoundation, but it was something
about that book when I got thatbook in 22, that, um, it really

(01:07:30):
changed my life profoundly.
And I, I can't believe it's onlybeen two and a half years since
I got that book, because itfeels like a lifetime ago for
me.
Really?
'cause I've changed thatdramatically.
Yeah.
Um, but what, what he saysbasically is that the key to
life, the secret to life isbeing able to concentrate.
The key to life is being able tocontrol what it is you think

(01:07:52):
about.
Yeah.
And he provides, he just laysout the Hindu philosophy for.
Learning how to control whereyour awareness goes and what
exercises and what practices doyou implement in your life to
control that.
Sure.
Yeah.
And, um, it's, so, so that's mypassion.
So after, um, so I've read thebook, uh, a number of times.

(01:08:13):
I've been on two retreats withhim.
Okay.
Most recent, most recently inMarch.
Yeah.
I met up with him in Cambodiaand Malaysia.
Okay.
Um, and, uh, the book changed mylife so much that I.
Bought a hundred copies of thebook to give away.
Okay.
And, um, if anybody wants a freecopy, well that could have been
your gift here, actually.
Oh, well, that'll be your giftinstead of$25 Silver Girl.

(01:08:35):
Sure, sure.
It'll be both.
Well, for anybody, for anybodywho wants a copy of this book
Okay.
They could just look you up.
Send, send me a postcard.
My address is 5 6 0 3 FallingWater Drive in Fort Collins.
All right.
8 0 5 2 8.
Send me a postcard with a lineor two about why you wanna focus
and I'll send you a free copy ofthe book.
I like it.
I, uh, there's a book I'vementioned on the podcast before.

(01:08:57):
I think it's David Engle, andit's the Brain.
And it's kind of that same, likewe have this neuroplasticity and
we, we build ourselves ruts andstuff, but when we focus and
concentrate our thought, then wecan kind of get out of those
ruts.
And it's also a garbage in,garbage out kind of a world.

(01:09:17):
So if you're just.
Doom scrolling and notintentionally learning new
things and stuff.
Like you just don't have the rawmaterials to work with to have
good concentration and thoughtand focus.
Everybody has the, uh, has the,uh, we have the mind for it,
right?
The, the, the brain.
And we all have the same kind ofhardware, right?

(01:09:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it, it's just a question of,of of what practices that, that
we live in.
But, uh, what, what Don Deponingteaches is that when you
repeatedly visited the area of,of the mind with your awareness,
if your awareness is constantlygoing to one idea or one
thought, that area of the mindbecomes very strong, becomes
magnetic, and it pulls yourawareness there.
And, um, as you stop that, thatarea of the mind becomes weaker

(01:10:00):
and less magnetic and less, lessof a pull on your awareness.
Hmm.
Um.
And then you're able to, uh, to,to, to, to, to focus on, on what
you wanna focus on in life.
So, so was that, was that partof the contribution to the
decision on leaving chessbehind?
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But the, the chess thing hasjust been, just been one, one

(01:10:22):
brick of many in terms of waysthat I've changed my life.
Yeah.
Um, like I had a, a nervoushabit as a child, and, uh, and I
guess by the time I was about 15years old, like, like since as
long as I can remember, I hadthis nervous habit.
And when I was 15 it, I startedgetting embarrassed by it.
And then I was like, okay, Iwanna, I wanna get this under
control.
Okay.
And I, so I, I fought againstthat habit in my entire life,

(01:10:43):
but it wasn't until I got thebook that I put the final nail
in the coffin.
Hmm.
And so, so that's, that's, can Iask like, where you choose your
fingernails, but but yeah.
Chew on my fingernails.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
And if you look at my fingers,you'll see they're little, they
don't look like everybodyelse's, at least not well, when
I see another fingernail biter,I look at their fingers.
Like, you, you bite yourfingernails.
So even though you stopped along time ago, it's, they still

(01:11:03):
kind of Oh, yeah.
Look different.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
The nail, the nail doesn't, it'snot attached all the way to the
edge of the finger.
Oh, interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember like being scoldedfor two of my fingernails and
stuff or whatever, but I neverhad a problem with it.
Yeah.
I just blow off my parents like,whatever.
Yeah.
I'll do what I want.
That's interesting.

(01:11:23):
So, um, and it just kind ofallows that, it sounds like
meditation in a lot of ways,right?
Well, meditation is, um, is away to practice concentration.
Yeah.
Um.
So, yeah.
Meditation is, yeah.
It's a, it's a part of mypractice today and, and it's,
but it, it's, it's just onepiece.
Okay.
Um, he really recommends like,you have to like, change your

(01:11:45):
whole lifestyle because ifyou're only me, if you're only
concentrating while you'remeditating Mm.
What are you doing for the other23 hours of the day?
Right.
Right.
And so what, what he teaches inthe book is that what, what he
advises is like almost everyminute is accountable.
Exactly.
And, and he said, you, you, yourgoal is to be able to choose
what you're thinking about everymoment of the day.
Yeah.
Um, and that might soundexhausting, but I.

(01:12:08):
As he says.
Um, when you, once you learn howto concentrate, when you spend
people time with people who aredistracted, you find them
exhausting.
Yeah.
Because they're bouncing around.
Yeah.
Or people that are reallystressed out, or people that are
anxious all the time and theyjust can't, well, he talks about
this specifically is anxiety andfear that a lot of people, uh,
live in fear and they constantlyare thinking about that.

(01:12:31):
Yeah.
So that's the part of their mindthat gets strong.
Yeah.
And, and pulls their awarenessthere.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fascinating.
Um, so have you studied Hinduismand such as well?
Are you, um, is your wife No.
From that perspective, or do youguys do anything?
No, she's, she was raised Sikh,um Oh, oh, okay.
Um, but yeah, all the, well,that's one of the things I
really appreciate about DonPontis book is that it's

(01:12:52):
completely secular.
Right.
He, um, mentions in a fewparagraphs here and there, what
he believes.
Yeah.
But that's not the point of thebook.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, but.
Absolutely.
The book is based on Hinduphilosophy.
Yeah.
And then, uh, I'm readinganother book now.
I actually got a a, a book club,um, um Cool.
When we're reading, uh, NapoleonHill Think And Grow Rich.

(01:13:13):
Oh yeah.
And his book is actually has,uh, a lot of Hindu philosophy in
it as well.
Oh, is that right?
The similarities between Hill'sBook and uh, Don Deon's book
are, are profound.
Matter of fact, Don Ponty toldme he's been studying Napoleon
Hill's book for three.
Is that right?
For three years.
Oh, interesting.
He's been studying this book.
Well, I read that Think and GrowRich, but like 20 years ago or
something.

(01:13:34):
Like, and I don't think I was,didn't have my head quite right
for it at the time.
It's, um, yeah, it.
Uh, well, I, I can say that,that, that my interpretation of
Hill's work is based on, youknow, everything I've learned
with Don Deponte and, and it'sRight, uh, hill, which was about
a hundred years ago, right?
When Hill, yeah.
I came out in 37.
Okay.
Yeah.
Not quite came out in 37, so 85or something.

(01:13:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, um, yeah, so, no, I'm reallypassionate about that and I, I
mean, I'll just list off, Imean, a couple other things to
help me with is it, it, I usedto drink more than I should.
Mm-hmm.
And now I don't.
Um, and I, and there's just beena whole bunch of things.
It's just, I, I, I'm a, I canlisten to my wife much better.
I'm much more focused with her.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.

(01:14:15):
Um,'cause I, I got in a habitof, you know, just like Uhhuh
Yeah.
Well, I'm thinking aboutsomething else.
Right.
Uhhuh and not realizing just howdisrespectful that is.
Right.
Yeah.
And, uh, so over the course ofyears, I've, I've, I've worked
on that and now I think, well, Idon't know if she'd agree with
me, but sometimes I feel likeI'm being a better listener than
she is now.

(01:14:35):
Yeah.
That's awesome.
That's really cool.
Um.
What else would you care toshare?
Oh gosh.
You've been a local think tankmember for a few months.
Yeah.
Here.
Yeah.
No, so I'm really, reallyexcited.
Kinda joined during a transitionof a chapter.
New leadership.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
No, I'm, I'm really grateful forthat.
'cause I've been in other peergroups.
Okay.
And I'm just a huge fan of peergroups.
Um, and I'm still in touch with,I mean, I was in a peer group in

(01:15:00):
San Antonio from about 2011 to2015, and I'm still, I still got
two clients from that group.
Oh, that's cool.
Right.
And, uh, so, um, and then I wasin EO for a while, but no, the
peer groups for anybody that'sthinking about joining a peer
group, I mean, if, if we'rerunning a business, there's no
substitute.
Well, I mean, Napoleon Hillcoined the mastermind term.

(01:15:20):
Right, exactly.
Exactly.
And so that's an interesting,uh, and it's really important to
stay focused on the positiveelements.
Yeah.
You know, if, if a peer groupbecomes kind of a complaining
session place.
It doesn't function well.
Yeah.
It has to be a place whereyou're growing and learning and

(01:15:41):
intentionally like prodding eachother to put your heads in the
right places.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I, I think that's a reallyimportant point, Kurt.
'cause not all peer groupscreated equal.
Right.
For sure.
And, and, and, uh, I've been ingroups that weren't a good fit.
Um, and it's not like I stuckaround.
Um, you, you gotta make sureit's a good fit for you.
Yeah.
And, and there's there's gottabe that right.

(01:16:01):
Chemistry and that.
Um, yeah.
But when you get in a good oneand you've been in, especially
when you've been in for a yearor two, and your peers know your
business and you know them andyou trust them and you can be
vulnerable in front of them andyou can bring your toughest
issues.
Where else are you gonna getthat you're not gonna get it
from your spouse?
It's a special place for sure.
Yeah.
You know, because they don't,you know, it's just, well, they

(01:16:23):
don't understand it nearly asRight.
And they're not, and, and so, soyou're with people from the,
that they're running their ownbusiness.
It's a different business,right?
Yeah.
And they, they, they bring aperspective that, that you're
not gonna tap into otherwise.
Yeah.
I think you're right.
Well, thanks for being a part ofit.
I'm, I'm glad we found a, a goodchapter fit for you.
Yeah, me too.
Me too.
Um, what would you say yourmost, um, like pivotal decision

(01:16:49):
or change in business has been?
Or is it right now?
Oh yeah.
Is the changes over the next 24months for.
For your business, kind of themost greatest season?
Yeah.
No, I'm super excited from abusiness now.
'cause I, I tell you, I alwayslike, I I, I think I mentioned
this a little earlier, I alwaysfelt like I've been playing
second fiddle to these SaaScompanies and now, right.
I feel like with ai, the, the,the playing field is level.

(01:17:09):
Okay.
'cause now I'll be able to bringsoftware solutions at a similar
price, or, or no, it's not, it'sgonna be a little bit more than
SaaS, but it's gonna be a muchbetter fit for my clients.
Right.
And I really think Kurt, I mean,I've been doing custom software
for, for 24 years plus.
And, and, um, and they're reallygonna struggle to find any one
software that sells that scale.

(01:17:32):
Yeah.
Right, right.
Like,'cause it would be betterif it was just a little bit more
Well, their, their businessmodel is all about selling the
same piece of software to everycompany out there.
And making it, you know, addingall these features and, and, and
buttons and, and, and, yeah.
Yeah.
Um, and, and whatnot.
And, uh.
Yeah, they're, they're not gonnabe able to leverage AI to, to
the extent that I will.

(01:17:52):
Yeah.
And that, that's why I feel likethe, the, uh, custom, custom
software is in the ascendancy.
Yeah.
I dig, dig it.
I dig it.
Yeah.
Well, I appreciate you spendingsome time with me today.
Absolutely.
An enjoyable conversation.
And, uh, you know, I wish youvery much, uh, I, I, I'd like
nothing more than a David versusGoliath, uh, victory for David.

(01:18:13):
Okay.
And so go get those SaaScompanies, get that market share
back.
I will.
I, I'll focus on it.
All right, well, got speed.
Yeah.
Focus on it.
That's right.
Oh yeah.
And Shaka.
Alright.
Thanks Kurt.

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EXPERIENCE 222 | Focus, Innovation, and Customization with Murph McIver, Founder and Software Architect at Xeo Software

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}EXPERIENCE 222 | Focus, Innovation, and Customization with Murph McIver, Founder and Software Architect at Xeo Software