December 3, 2025 • 14 mins
This episode reframes leadership as a biological state—not a checklist—and shows how inner stability enables courage, influence, and consistently better decisions. Instead of treating leadership as personality or tactics, we explore how the nervous system shapes mindset, emotional control, and the ability to act boldly under uncertainty. The goal is a practical, science-backed toolkit you can apply today.
We begin by defining protect vs. prospect mindsets, revealing how loss aversion pushes teams toward safe defaults even when bold action is required. You’ll learn how fast emotional systems drive the majority of decisions, and why HRV is a powerful measure of resilience, adaptability, and leadership readiness. We break down the daily levers—breathing, movement, recovery, connection—that reliably raise HRV and inner stability.
The episode introduces the IRR technique, a rapid reset method for clearing cognitive noise in high-stakes moments. We show how social connection reduces stress, how to tailor persuasion to an audience’s physiological state, and how to sequence data, values, and commitment for maximum influence. Finally, we explore the difference between making a decision and making it right, and how co-creation and shared ownership build lasting buy-in.
High-volume keywords used: leadership, decision-making, HRV, resilience, influence, persuasion, emotional brain, stress management
Listener Takeaways
- Why leadership depends on biological state more than tactics
- How protect vs. prospect mindsets shape decisions and risk-taking
- Daily levers that raise HRV and improve stability
- The IRR technique for fast clarity in stressful moments
- How to tailor persuasion and build buy-in through co-creation
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to the deep dive.
I want you to uh think aboutyour best week ever at work.
unknown (00:05):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (00:05):
You know, when decisions just felt easy,
influence was, well, effortless.
And you went home with energy.
SPEAKER_00 (00:11):
And then the flip side.
SPEAKER_01 (00:12):
Exactly.
Your worst week.
The problems are the same, maybeeven smaller, but you feel slow,
grumpy, and just utterlyreactive.
Why is there such a massivedifference?
SPEAKER_00 (00:23):
That is the exact question at the heart of the
sources we're digging intotoday.
We're doing a deep dive intoexceptional leadership, but not
as a skill set you learn.
SPEAKER_01 (00:34):
But as a biological state.
SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
As a biological state, you can actually achieve.
And when we talk aboutperformance, we're really
looking at two main things.
First, how you personally makethose really tough high-stakes
decisions.
SPEAKER_01 (00:46):
And second.
SPEAKER_00 (00:47):
And second, how you shape those same decisions when
other people are making them.
SPEAKER_01 (00:50):
Okay.
So let's get back to thatcentral mystery.
The demands of leadership, youknow, the deadlines, the
complexity, they don't reallychange that much day to day.
SPEAKER_00 (00:59):
How really?
SPEAKER_01 (00:59):
Yet we have these huge swings.
We have on days whereeverything's fluid, you're
resilient, sharp.
SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
And then you have those off days, you feel stuck,
every little thing feels like ahuge threat, and you just you go
ballistic.
SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
So the goal here, our mission for this deep dive,
is to figure out theneurobiological architecture
behind all this.
SPEAKER_00 (01:18):
Right.
We want to build a protocol,basically.
SPEAKER_01 (01:20):
Aaron Ross Powell A protocol to have more on days,
to stop just hoping for the bestand start actually manifesting
excellence.
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
Aaron Powell And that excellence it all begins
with seeing leadership as uh adual game.
SPEAKER_01 (01:35):
Aaron Powell Okay, a dual game.
Yeah.
We spend almost all of our timefocused on what everyone sees,
right?
The outer game.
SPEAKER_00 (01:42):
Aaron Powell That's it.
How to inspire people, gaintrust, change minds, get the
best out of your team, all thestuff you read about in the
textbooks.
SPEAKER_01 (01:49):
Aaron Powell But what the sources are really
stressing is that winning thatouter game is, well, it's pretty
meaningless.
SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
It's fundamentally unstable.
SPEAKER_01 (01:56):
If you haven't won the inner game.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
Exactly.
The inner game is all about yourpersonal state.
Are you happy?
Are you fulfilled?
If that internal achievementisn't there, the external wins
just feel hollow.
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
So the goal for you, the listener, is to get to that
best version of yourself and notjust smart or productive, but
agile, flexible, and having realstability, real equanimity.
SPEAKER_00 (02:20):
Aaron Powell And to do that, you have to look under
the hood at the engine.
SPEAKER_01 (02:23):
At what's actually driving our performance.
SPEAKER_00 (02:25):
We have to understand the fundamental
objective of yourneurobiological system.
And this system, I mean, it'sancient.
It's been developing formillions of years with one
simple, relentless goal.
SPEAKER_01 (02:37):
Survival.
SPEAKER_00 (02:37):
Survival.
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
But survival in a world that's always changing
means you can't just worry abouttoday.
SPEAKER_00 (02:42):
Precisely.
The system has to anticipate thefuture.
But because the future is souncertain, it also has to be
incredibly adaptable.
Okay.
And that ancient drive createstwo sort of baked-in modes of
operation, two states of beingthat dictate how you approach
everything.
SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
Let's break those down.
SPEAKER_00 (02:59):
We can call them the type one and the type two
mindset.
So type one is your protectmode, play it safe.
SPEAKER_01 (03:04):
A threat avoidance state.
SPEAKER_00 (03:05):
Exactly.
It's characterized by a deep andoften uh crippling fear of
failure.
And for the brain in this state,failure isn't just an outcome,
it registers as genuinelypainful, shameful.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
And that immediately makes you risk averse,
defensive.
SPEAKER_00 (03:22):
Completely.
And then you have the type twomindset.
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
Aaron Powell The prospect mode, opportunity
seeking.
SPEAKER_00 (03:28):
Yes.
This isn't about avoidance.
It's driven by a powerful desirefor new opportunities.
So when a mistake happens here,the brain doesn't register pain,
it just spontaneously reframesit.
SPEAKER_01 (03:40):
As a challenge.
SPEAKER_00 (03:41):
As a challenge, which it finds exciting.
And that's your risk tolerant oreven risk-seeking persona.
SPEAKER_01 (03:45):
Aaron Powell And what's fascinating is that these
aren't just, you know,psychological ideas, they have
distinct neurochemical drivers.
SPEAKER_00 (03:51):
Aaron Powell They absolutely do.
The type one protects circuitrycycles between stress and
comfort.
So if that balance tips and youget too much cortisol
overwhelming the calmingchemicals, you're immediately
forced down that defensive typeone path.
SPEAKER_01 (04:03):
Aaron Powell And type two, the opportunity
seeking.
That's all about reward andexcitement.
So that's dopamine.
SPEAKER_00 (04:09):
Primarily fueled by dopamine, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (04:11):
But the big question is, how do you switch gears?
I mean, how do we get from typeone to type two when we really
need to?
SPEAKER_00 (04:17):
And this is the critical architectural insight
from the sources.
For your system to switch fromtype one, which is the default
cautious mode, to type two, theexploring mode, you must first
be in a stable level of comfort.
SPEAKER_01 (04:31):
Aaron Powell Wait, so to be clear, if I'm stressed,
my brain physically blocks mefrom even considering a riskier,
higher reward option.
SPEAKER_00 (04:42):
Yes.
And this is all underpinned bythe evolutionary concept of loss
aversion.
SPEAKER_01 (04:46):
Okay.
I think I've heard of this.
SPEAKER_00 (04:47):
So if you gain$50, you feel, you know, a certain
amount of pleasure.
But if you lose that same$50,the pain you feel is roughly
twice as intense.
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
Wow.
A two to one ratio.
SPEAKER_00 (04:57):
A two to one ratio baked right into our system.
So when stress shows up, itsignals danger.
And because the brain isprogrammed to prioritize safety
over gain a loss, it could meandeath, evolutionarily speaking.
It just slams the brakes onexploration.
SPEAKER_01 (05:12):
It keeps you locked in that defensive type one
mindset.
SPEAKER_00 (05:15):
It does.
SPEAKER_01 (05:15):
And that explains so much of what we see in
organizations that aren'tworking well.
When everyone's stressed, thewhole team is stuck in type one.
SPEAKER_00 (05:24):
Yes.
And they seek comfort in what'sfamiliar.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01 (05:26):
They end up using yesterday's solutions for
tomorrow's completely differentproblems.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
Exactly.
And you can see it manifest inreally predictable, crippling
ways.
Leaders start looking forexcessive validation, yeah, the
bandwagon effect.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01 (05:41):
If everyone else is doing it, it feels safer.
SPEAKER_00 (05:43):
Aaron Powell The shame of failure is minimized.
Right.
And organizationally, it's justdecision paralysis.
Suddenly there are pre-meetingsto discuss the meeting.
SPEAKER_01 (05:53):
Oh, I've been in those.
SPEAKER_00 (05:54):
Demands for more and more data until the opportunity
is gone, and only picking thelow-risk or no-risk options,
which ironically is often theriskiest path of all.
SPEAKER_01 (06:03):
Aaron Powell It sounds like this whole battle is
happening non-consciously.
And speaking of that, let's talkabout how decisions are actually
made, which brings in DannyKahneman's work.
SPEAKER_00 (06:12):
Right.
The fast and slow thinkingsystems.
And here is the well, theshocking truth.
Something like 90 to 95% of ourdecisions and behaviors.
Including how you react to anemail or whether you approve a
huge project, are constantlybeing shaped by the fast
thinking system.
SPEAKER_01 (06:28):
That's our emotional, instinctual gut
reaction system.
It is.
So wait a minute.
If that's 95%, what is ourrational analytical brain even
doing?
We spend our entire careerstrying to cultivate it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:42):
A lot of the time it's subservient.
Our rational brain, the partwe're so proud of, often just
operates too rationalized.
SPEAKER_01 (06:49):
To justify.
SPEAKER_00 (06:49):
To justify what the emotional brain has already
instinctively decided to do,that gut feeling happens
non-consciously, and then ourslow thinking brain gets the job
of building a logical storyaround it.
SPEAKER_01 (07:00):
Aaron Powell So our rational brain is basically just
a PR department for our gutfeelings.
SPEAKER_00 (07:04):
Yeah, they're a fantastic way to put it, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (07:06):
Okay, so this means if we want to change behavior in
ourselves or others, we have tostop just making logical
arguments.
We have to speak to theemotional system.
And since comfort is thefoundation, how do we actually
monitor and an adjust our ownsystem to get there?
SPEAKER_00 (07:22):
We have to move past the generic advice.
You know, get eight hours ofsleep.
Your system is unique, we're allneurodiverse.
You need precision medicine foryour own mind.
SPEAKER_01 (07:32):
Okay, let's get practical.
What's the first tool?
SPEAKER_00 (07:34):
The highest leverage tool is monitoring your heart
rate variability.
HRV.
SPEAKER_01 (07:39):
HRV.
Tell me more.
SPEAKER_00 (07:41):
It's a measure of the tiny, tiny fluctuations in
time between your heartbeats.
And it's a brilliant objectivemarker of your nervous system's
resilience and its adaptability.
SPEAKER_01 (07:51):
So high HRV is good.
SPEAKER_00 (07:53):
High HRV means your nervous system is relaxed and
ready to respond.
Low HRV correlates very, verystrongly with those off days.
SPEAKER_01 (08:01):
So how do you actually do this?
It sounds complicated.
SPEAKER_00 (08:04):
It just takes a little commitment, but it's
fast.
You measure your baseline HRVevery single morning, and you
have to use an accurate devicelike a chest band from Garmin or
a polar.
SPEAKER_01 (08:12):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
It only takes about two and a half minutes.
But the real work is when youstart to correlate those numbers
with how you actually felt andperformed that day.
SPEAKER_01 (08:20):
So was my score 60 on an on day and 35 on an off
day?
SPEAKER_00 (08:24):
Precisely.
And once you see that pattern,you can start experimenting.
You can start pulling levers tosee what jacks up that number
for you.
SPEAKER_01 (08:31):
Aaron Powell And what are those levers?
SPEAKER_00 (08:33):
Well, you focus on the big long cadence factors.
So sleep quality, your fitnessroutine, diet, maybe strategic
naps, and definitely mind-bodytraining like meditation.
It becomes a feedback loop.
SPEAKER_01 (08:45):
Okay, so that's for building long-term resilience.
But what about in the moment?
That negative thought spiralthat hits you in the middle of a
meeting and drops you right intotype one.
SPEAKER_00 (08:54):
For that, you need a rapid response.
Let's call it the IRR technique.
SPEAKER_01 (08:58):
IRR.
SPEAKER_00 (08:59):
Interrupt, relax, and reframe.
SPEAKER_01 (09:01):
Let's break that down.
A lot of people try to justignore negative thoughts, which
never works.
SPEAKER_00 (09:06):
It makes them worse.
SPEAKER_01 (09:07):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:07):
So first you have to interrupt it.
The moment that thought pops up,this project is going to fail,
and it's all my fault.
You need a circuit breaker.
Mentally picture a stop sign.
SPEAKER_01 (09:17):
Stop the thought in its tracks.
Then relax.
SPEAKER_00 (09:21):
Yes.
Immediately.
You have to pair the mentalinterruption with a physical
one.
Take one slow deep breath.
Consciously drop your shoulders.
Relax your jaw.
It sends a calming signal toyour nervous system.
It breaks the cortisol spike.
It gives you a chance to breakfree, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (09:37):
And the final step, reframe.
How is this different from justpretending everything is fine?
SPEAKER_00 (09:43):
It's not denial.
It's about recognizing thatreality can be viewed from
multiple valid angles.
So if you interrupted thethought this presentation will
fail, the reframe is choosing adifferent angle.
SPEAKER_01 (09:54):
Like what?
SPEAKER_00 (09:55):
Like this presentation is an opportunity
to learn exactly what thisclient needs, and I'm going to
listen for that feedback.
You're not denying the risk.
You're just choosing an adaptivetype two lens instead of a
defensive type one lens.
SPEAKER_01 (10:07):
That's a powerful tool.
And before we shift to the outergame, there's one more tool for
the inner game we can't forget.
SPEAKER_00 (10:12):
Social connection.
SPEAKER_01 (10:13):
Simple but incredibly effective.
SPEAKER_00 (10:15):
We are wired for it.
Leveraging your socialconnections is one of the most
powerful ways to relieve stress.
Sharing a problem immediatelylowers the threat level for your
brain.
SPEAKER_01 (10:25):
The worst thing you can do is just stew in your own
juices.
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
Absolutely.
Talk to someone, and it alwayshelps shift your state.
SPEAKER_01 (10:30):
So, okay.
We have our inner game toolkit.
We've established comfort andstability.
Now, how do we use thisknowledge to influence others?
How do we win the outer game?
SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
First, you have to abandon the idea that rational
arguments are your primary tool.
They're not.
SPEAKER_01 (10:46):
Right, because of the emotional brain.
SPEAKER_00 (10:48):
You need to assess your audience's mindset.
Are they in type one protectmode or type two prospect mode?
And you have to feed what theiremotional brain is looking for.
SPEAKER_01 (10:58):
Give me an example.
Say I'm pitching an expensivenew software platform.
How do I change my pitch?
SPEAKER_00 (11:04):
If your audience is in type one, they are terrified
of risk.
They need comfort, familiarity.
SPEAKER_01 (11:09):
So I don't talk about the massive crazy upside.
SPEAKER_00 (11:12):
No.
You focus on risk mitigation.
You show them data on industrystandards, you show them other
big stable companies that havealready adopted this solution.
You give them safety.
SPEAKER_01 (11:22):
You reduce their fear of loss.
SPEAKER_00 (11:24):
Exactly.
But if they're in a type twostate, then it's the opposite.
Then comfort is boring.
They need excitement,opportunity.
You talk about differentiation,massive ROI, competitive
advantage, the thrill of being amarket leader.
You're speaking to the dopaminesystem.
SPEAKER_01 (11:40):
Which brings us back to that core idea.
You can't tell someone to getout of their comfort zone if
they're not even in theircomfort zone to begin with.
SPEAKER_00 (11:48):
You have to meet them where they are.
And this leads to much betterdecision-making processes for
leaders.
Instead of letting ambiguityparalyze a team, you can
structure the process to harnessboth brains.
SPEAKER_01 (12:00):
What does that successful sequence look like?
SPEAKER_00 (12:02):
You start by triggering the rational brain.
Use numbers, logic, data to setthe parameters.
Then you intentionally invokethe emotional brain.
You open a discussion aboutvalues, about purpose, about the
shared vision this decisionsupports.
And only after that do youarrive at the decision.
SPEAKER_01 (12:21):
So the goal isn't to find the one perfect choice,
which probably doesn't exist ina complex world anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (12:26):
The goal is to have confidence in the choice you
make.
And this is probably the biggestinsight for leaders.
Don't search for the rightdecision.
Make the decision and then makethe decision right.
SPEAKER_01 (12:35):
Can you unpack that a little?
How do you make a decision rightafter the fact?
SPEAKER_00 (12:39):
It means you stop analyzing and start executing.
If you decide to go with ProjectAlpha instead of Project Beta,
you stop second guessing.
You put 100% of your energy intomaking Project Alpha an
undeniable success.
SPEAKER_01 (12:51):
You remove obstacles, you build the team,
you find the resources.
SPEAKER_00 (12:55):
You proactively create the positive outcome.
That way you validate theinitial choice instead of
letting your emotional brainjust constantly create stress by
questioning it.
SPEAKER_01 (13:04):
That is a profound shift in mindset.
And one last practical tip forthat outer game.
SPEAKER_00 (13:10):
The IKEA effect.
SPEAKER_01 (13:11):
Ah, yes.
SPEAKER_00 (13:12):
People place so much more value on things they help
build.
Collaboration is key.
If you want buy-in, don't justhand someone a finished report.
SPEAKER_01 (13:21):
Involve them in the process.
SPEAKER_00 (13:22):
Even in a small way.
Let them contribute.
By building that commitmentthrough collaboration, you're
satisfying that deep emotionalneed for ownership.
SPEAKER_01 (13:30):
What a journey.
We started with the ancientobjective of our own
neurobiology, survival andadaptability.
And we mapped it right onto whywe have on days and off days.
SPEAKER_00 (13:41):
And then we move to these really practical modern
tools from quantitative thingslike HRV to quick cognitive
fixes like the IRR technique.
SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
All aimed at creating consistent high
performance.
SPEAKER_00 (13:55):
You could think of it as resilience or endurance.
If you think of a standard pieceof glass and you throw a stone
at it, it shatters.
SPEAKER_01 (14:01):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (14:02):
But when you apply these practices, you're
tempering that glass.
Yeah.
You're strengthening itsinternal structure.
You're turning it into somethingmore like bulletproof glass.
SPEAKER_01 (14:09):
It can take the hits and rebound quickly, it can
maintain its equanimity nomatter what's happening outside.
That's the goal.
And we hope that's the state youstrive for.
Now, for one final provocativethought for you to take with
you.
If 90 to 95% of your decisionsare being made by your emotional
brain, what is one majordecision you made this week?
A key hire, a big investment, astrategic pivot that you'll now
(14:31):
re examine just to see if yourrational reasons were really
just sophisticatedrationalizations for a type one
fear or a type two desire for adopamine hit.
Go forth and measure your innergame.
Welcome to the deep dive.
I want you to uh think aboutyour best week ever at work.
unknown (00:05):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (00:05):
You know, when decisions just felt easy,
influence was, well, effortless.
And you went home with energy.
SPEAKER_00 (00:11):
And then the flip side.
SPEAKER_01 (00:12):
Exactly.
Your worst week.
The problems are the same, maybeeven smaller, but you feel slow,
grumpy, and just utterlyreactive.
Why is there such a massivedifference?
SPEAKER_00 (00:23):
That is the exact question at the heart of the
sources we're digging intotoday.
We're doing a deep dive intoexceptional leadership, but not
as a skill set you learn.
SPEAKER_01 (00:34):
But as a biological state.
SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
As a biological state, you can actually achieve.
And when we talk aboutperformance, we're really
looking at two main things.
First, how you personally makethose really tough high-stakes
decisions.
SPEAKER_01 (00:46):
And second.
SPEAKER_00 (00:47):
And second, how you shape those same decisions when
other people are making them.
SPEAKER_01 (00:50):
Okay.
So let's get back to thatcentral mystery.
The demands of leadership, youknow, the deadlines, the
complexity, they don't reallychange that much day to day.
SPEAKER_00 (00:59):
How really?
SPEAKER_01 (00:59):
Yet we have these huge swings.
We have on days whereeverything's fluid, you're
resilient, sharp.
SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
And then you have those off days, you feel stuck,
every little thing feels like ahuge threat, and you just you go
ballistic.
SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
So the goal here, our mission for this deep dive,
is to figure out theneurobiological architecture
behind all this.
SPEAKER_00 (01:18):
Right.
We want to build a protocol,basically.
SPEAKER_01 (01:20):
Aaron Ross Powell A protocol to have more on days,
to stop just hoping for the bestand start actually manifesting
excellence.
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
Aaron Powell And that excellence it all begins
with seeing leadership as uh adual game.
SPEAKER_01 (01:35):
Aaron Powell Okay, a dual game.
Yeah.
We spend almost all of our timefocused on what everyone sees,
right?
The outer game.
SPEAKER_00 (01:42):
Aaron Powell That's it.
How to inspire people, gaintrust, change minds, get the
best out of your team, all thestuff you read about in the
textbooks.
SPEAKER_01 (01:49):
Aaron Powell But what the sources are really
stressing is that winning thatouter game is, well, it's pretty
meaningless.
SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
It's fundamentally unstable.
SPEAKER_01 (01:56):
If you haven't won the inner game.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
Exactly.
The inner game is all about yourpersonal state.
Are you happy?
Are you fulfilled?
If that internal achievementisn't there, the external wins
just feel hollow.
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
So the goal for you, the listener, is to get to that
best version of yourself and notjust smart or productive, but
agile, flexible, and having realstability, real equanimity.
SPEAKER_00 (02:20):
Aaron Powell And to do that, you have to look under
the hood at the engine.
SPEAKER_01 (02:23):
At what's actually driving our performance.
SPEAKER_00 (02:25):
We have to understand the fundamental
objective of yourneurobiological system.
And this system, I mean, it'sancient.
It's been developing formillions of years with one
simple, relentless goal.
SPEAKER_01 (02:37):
Survival.
SPEAKER_00 (02:37):
Survival.
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
But survival in a world that's always changing
means you can't just worry abouttoday.
SPEAKER_00 (02:42):
Precisely.
The system has to anticipate thefuture.
But because the future is souncertain, it also has to be
incredibly adaptable.
Okay.
And that ancient drive createstwo sort of baked-in modes of
operation, two states of beingthat dictate how you approach
everything.
SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
Let's break those down.
SPEAKER_00 (02:59):
We can call them the type one and the type two
mindset.
So type one is your protectmode, play it safe.
SPEAKER_01 (03:04):
A threat avoidance state.
SPEAKER_00 (03:05):
Exactly.
It's characterized by a deep andoften uh crippling fear of
failure.
And for the brain in this state,failure isn't just an outcome,
it registers as genuinelypainful, shameful.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
And that immediately makes you risk averse,
defensive.
SPEAKER_00 (03:22):
Completely.
And then you have the type twomindset.
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
Aaron Powell The prospect mode, opportunity
seeking.
SPEAKER_00 (03:28):
Yes.
This isn't about avoidance.
It's driven by a powerful desirefor new opportunities.
So when a mistake happens here,the brain doesn't register pain,
it just spontaneously reframesit.
SPEAKER_01 (03:40):
As a challenge.
SPEAKER_00 (03:41):
As a challenge, which it finds exciting.
And that's your risk tolerant oreven risk-seeking persona.
SPEAKER_01 (03:45):
Aaron Powell And what's fascinating is that these
aren't just, you know,psychological ideas, they have
distinct neurochemical drivers.
SPEAKER_00 (03:51):
Aaron Powell They absolutely do.
The type one protects circuitrycycles between stress and
comfort.
So if that balance tips and youget too much cortisol
overwhelming the calmingchemicals, you're immediately
forced down that defensive typeone path.
SPEAKER_01 (04:03):
Aaron Powell And type two, the opportunity
seeking.
That's all about reward andexcitement.
So that's dopamine.
SPEAKER_00 (04:09):
Primarily fueled by dopamine, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (04:11):
But the big question is, how do you switch gears?
I mean, how do we get from typeone to type two when we really
need to?
SPEAKER_00 (04:17):
And this is the critical architectural insight
from the sources.
For your system to switch fromtype one, which is the default
cautious mode, to type two, theexploring mode, you must first
be in a stable level of comfort.
SPEAKER_01 (04:31):
Aaron Powell Wait, so to be clear, if I'm stressed,
my brain physically blocks mefrom even considering a riskier,
higher reward option.
SPEAKER_00 (04:42):
Yes.
And this is all underpinned bythe evolutionary concept of loss
aversion.
SPEAKER_01 (04:46):
Okay.
I think I've heard of this.
SPEAKER_00 (04:47):
So if you gain$50, you feel, you know, a certain
amount of pleasure.
But if you lose that same$50,the pain you feel is roughly
twice as intense.
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
Wow.
A two to one ratio.
SPEAKER_00 (04:57):
A two to one ratio baked right into our system.
So when stress shows up, itsignals danger.
And because the brain isprogrammed to prioritize safety
over gain a loss, it could meandeath, evolutionarily speaking.
It just slams the brakes onexploration.
SPEAKER_01 (05:12):
It keeps you locked in that defensive type one
mindset.
SPEAKER_00 (05:15):
It does.
SPEAKER_01 (05:15):
And that explains so much of what we see in
organizations that aren'tworking well.
When everyone's stressed, thewhole team is stuck in type one.
SPEAKER_00 (05:24):
Yes.
And they seek comfort in what'sfamiliar.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01 (05:26):
They end up using yesterday's solutions for
tomorrow's completely differentproblems.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
Exactly.
And you can see it manifest inreally predictable, crippling
ways.
Leaders start looking forexcessive validation, yeah, the
bandwagon effect.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01 (05:41):
If everyone else is doing it, it feels safer.
SPEAKER_00 (05:43):
Aaron Powell The shame of failure is minimized.
Right.
And organizationally, it's justdecision paralysis.
Suddenly there are pre-meetingsto discuss the meeting.
SPEAKER_01 (05:53):
Oh, I've been in those.
SPEAKER_00 (05:54):
Demands for more and more data until the opportunity
is gone, and only picking thelow-risk or no-risk options,
which ironically is often theriskiest path of all.
SPEAKER_01 (06:03):
Aaron Powell It sounds like this whole battle is
happening non-consciously.
And speaking of that, let's talkabout how decisions are actually
made, which brings in DannyKahneman's work.
SPEAKER_00 (06:12):
Right.
The fast and slow thinkingsystems.
And here is the well, theshocking truth.
Something like 90 to 95% of ourdecisions and behaviors.
Including how you react to anemail or whether you approve a
huge project, are constantlybeing shaped by the fast
thinking system.
SPEAKER_01 (06:28):
That's our emotional, instinctual gut
reaction system.
It is.
So wait a minute.
If that's 95%, what is ourrational analytical brain even
doing?
We spend our entire careerstrying to cultivate it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:42):
A lot of the time it's subservient.
Our rational brain, the partwe're so proud of, often just
operates too rationalized.
SPEAKER_01 (06:49):
To justify.
SPEAKER_00 (06:49):
To justify what the emotional brain has already
instinctively decided to do,that gut feeling happens
non-consciously, and then ourslow thinking brain gets the job
of building a logical storyaround it.
SPEAKER_01 (07:00):
Aaron Powell So our rational brain is basically just
a PR department for our gutfeelings.
SPEAKER_00 (07:04):
Yeah, they're a fantastic way to put it, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (07:06):
Okay, so this means if we want to change behavior in
ourselves or others, we have tostop just making logical
arguments.
We have to speak to theemotional system.
And since comfort is thefoundation, how do we actually
monitor and an adjust our ownsystem to get there?
SPEAKER_00 (07:22):
We have to move past the generic advice.
You know, get eight hours ofsleep.
Your system is unique, we're allneurodiverse.
You need precision medicine foryour own mind.
SPEAKER_01 (07:32):
Okay, let's get practical.
What's the first tool?
SPEAKER_00 (07:34):
The highest leverage tool is monitoring your heart
rate variability.
HRV.
SPEAKER_01 (07:39):
HRV.
Tell me more.
SPEAKER_00 (07:41):
It's a measure of the tiny, tiny fluctuations in
time between your heartbeats.
And it's a brilliant objectivemarker of your nervous system's
resilience and its adaptability.
SPEAKER_01 (07:51):
So high HRV is good.
SPEAKER_00 (07:53):
High HRV means your nervous system is relaxed and
ready to respond.
Low HRV correlates very, verystrongly with those off days.
SPEAKER_01 (08:01):
So how do you actually do this?
It sounds complicated.
SPEAKER_00 (08:04):
It just takes a little commitment, but it's
fast.
You measure your baseline HRVevery single morning, and you
have to use an accurate devicelike a chest band from Garmin or
a polar.
SPEAKER_01 (08:12):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
It only takes about two and a half minutes.
But the real work is when youstart to correlate those numbers
with how you actually felt andperformed that day.
SPEAKER_01 (08:20):
So was my score 60 on an on day and 35 on an off
day?
SPEAKER_00 (08:24):
Precisely.
And once you see that pattern,you can start experimenting.
You can start pulling levers tosee what jacks up that number
for you.
SPEAKER_01 (08:31):
Aaron Powell And what are those levers?
SPEAKER_00 (08:33):
Well, you focus on the big long cadence factors.
So sleep quality, your fitnessroutine, diet, maybe strategic
naps, and definitely mind-bodytraining like meditation.
It becomes a feedback loop.
SPEAKER_01 (08:45):
Okay, so that's for building long-term resilience.
But what about in the moment?
That negative thought spiralthat hits you in the middle of a
meeting and drops you right intotype one.
SPEAKER_00 (08:54):
For that, you need a rapid response.
Let's call it the IRR technique.
SPEAKER_01 (08:58):
IRR.
SPEAKER_00 (08:59):
Interrupt, relax, and reframe.
SPEAKER_01 (09:01):
Let's break that down.
A lot of people try to justignore negative thoughts, which
never works.
SPEAKER_00 (09:06):
It makes them worse.
SPEAKER_01 (09:07):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:07):
So first you have to interrupt it.
The moment that thought pops up,this project is going to fail,
and it's all my fault.
You need a circuit breaker.
Mentally picture a stop sign.
SPEAKER_01 (09:17):
Stop the thought in its tracks.
Then relax.
SPEAKER_00 (09:21):
Yes.
Immediately.
You have to pair the mentalinterruption with a physical
one.
Take one slow deep breath.
Consciously drop your shoulders.
Relax your jaw.
It sends a calming signal toyour nervous system.
It breaks the cortisol spike.
It gives you a chance to breakfree, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (09:37):
And the final step, reframe.
How is this different from justpretending everything is fine?
SPEAKER_00 (09:43):
It's not denial.
It's about recognizing thatreality can be viewed from
multiple valid angles.
So if you interrupted thethought this presentation will
fail, the reframe is choosing adifferent angle.
SPEAKER_01 (09:54):
Like what?
SPEAKER_00 (09:55):
Like this presentation is an opportunity
to learn exactly what thisclient needs, and I'm going to
listen for that feedback.
You're not denying the risk.
You're just choosing an adaptivetype two lens instead of a
defensive type one lens.
SPEAKER_01 (10:07):
That's a powerful tool.
And before we shift to the outergame, there's one more tool for
the inner game we can't forget.
SPEAKER_00 (10:12):
Social connection.
SPEAKER_01 (10:13):
Simple but incredibly effective.
SPEAKER_00 (10:15):
We are wired for it.
Leveraging your socialconnections is one of the most
powerful ways to relieve stress.
Sharing a problem immediatelylowers the threat level for your
brain.
SPEAKER_01 (10:25):
The worst thing you can do is just stew in your own
juices.
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
Absolutely.
Talk to someone, and it alwayshelps shift your state.
SPEAKER_01 (10:30):
So, okay.
We have our inner game toolkit.
We've established comfort andstability.
Now, how do we use thisknowledge to influence others?
How do we win the outer game?
SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
First, you have to abandon the idea that rational
arguments are your primary tool.
They're not.
SPEAKER_01 (10:46):
Right, because of the emotional brain.
SPEAKER_00 (10:48):
You need to assess your audience's mindset.
Are they in type one protectmode or type two prospect mode?
And you have to feed what theiremotional brain is looking for.
SPEAKER_01 (10:58):
Give me an example.
Say I'm pitching an expensivenew software platform.
How do I change my pitch?
SPEAKER_00 (11:04):
If your audience is in type one, they are terrified
of risk.
They need comfort, familiarity.
SPEAKER_01 (11:09):
So I don't talk about the massive crazy upside.
SPEAKER_00 (11:12):
No.
You focus on risk mitigation.
You show them data on industrystandards, you show them other
big stable companies that havealready adopted this solution.
You give them safety.
SPEAKER_01 (11:22):
You reduce their fear of loss.
SPEAKER_00 (11:24):
Exactly.
But if they're in a type twostate, then it's the opposite.
Then comfort is boring.
They need excitement,opportunity.
You talk about differentiation,massive ROI, competitive
advantage, the thrill of being amarket leader.
You're speaking to the dopaminesystem.
SPEAKER_01 (11:40):
Which brings us back to that core idea.
You can't tell someone to getout of their comfort zone if
they're not even in theircomfort zone to begin with.
SPEAKER_00 (11:48):
You have to meet them where they are.
And this leads to much betterdecision-making processes for
leaders.
Instead of letting ambiguityparalyze a team, you can
structure the process to harnessboth brains.
SPEAKER_01 (12:00):
What does that successful sequence look like?
SPEAKER_00 (12:02):
You start by triggering the rational brain.
Use numbers, logic, data to setthe parameters.
Then you intentionally invokethe emotional brain.
You open a discussion aboutvalues, about purpose, about the
shared vision this decisionsupports.
And only after that do youarrive at the decision.
SPEAKER_01 (12:21):
So the goal isn't to find the one perfect choice,
which probably doesn't exist ina complex world anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (12:26):
The goal is to have confidence in the choice you
make.
And this is probably the biggestinsight for leaders.
Don't search for the rightdecision.
Make the decision and then makethe decision right.
SPEAKER_01 (12:35):
Can you unpack that a little?
How do you make a decision rightafter the fact?
SPEAKER_00 (12:39):
It means you stop analyzing and start executing.
If you decide to go with ProjectAlpha instead of Project Beta,
you stop second guessing.
You put 100% of your energy intomaking Project Alpha an
undeniable success.
SPEAKER_01 (12:51):
You remove obstacles, you build the team,
you find the resources.
SPEAKER_00 (12:55):
You proactively create the positive outcome.
That way you validate theinitial choice instead of
letting your emotional brainjust constantly create stress by
questioning it.
SPEAKER_01 (13:04):
That is a profound shift in mindset.
And one last practical tip forthat outer game.
SPEAKER_00 (13:10):
The IKEA effect.
SPEAKER_01 (13:11):
Ah, yes.
SPEAKER_00 (13:12):
People place so much more value on things they help
build.
Collaboration is key.
If you want buy-in, don't justhand someone a finished report.
SPEAKER_01 (13:21):
Involve them in the process.
SPEAKER_00 (13:22):
Even in a small way.
Let them contribute.
By building that commitmentthrough collaboration, you're
satisfying that deep emotionalneed for ownership.
SPEAKER_01 (13:30):
What a journey.
We started with the ancientobjective of our own
neurobiology, survival andadaptability.
And we mapped it right onto whywe have on days and off days.
SPEAKER_00 (13:41):
And then we move to these really practical modern
tools from quantitative thingslike HRV to quick cognitive
fixes like the IRR technique.
SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
All aimed at creating consistent high
performance.
SPEAKER_00 (13:55):
You could think of it as resilience or endurance.
If you think of a standard pieceof glass and you throw a stone
at it, it shatters.
SPEAKER_01 (14:01):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (14:02):
But when you apply these practices, you're
tempering that glass.
Yeah.
You're strengthening itsinternal structure.
You're turning it into somethingmore like bulletproof glass.
SPEAKER_01 (14:09):
It can take the hits and rebound quickly, it can
maintain its equanimity nomatter what's happening outside.
That's the goal.
And we hope that's the state youstrive for.
Now, for one final provocativethought for you to take with
you.
If 90 to 95% of your decisionsare being made by your emotional
brain, what is one majordecision you made this week?
A key hire, a big investment, astrategic pivot that you'll now
(14:31):
re examine just to see if yourrational reasons were really
just sophisticatedrationalizations for a type one
fear or a type two desire for adopamine hit.
Go forth and measure your innergame.
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