November 28, 2025 • 14 mins
This episode turns sauna use from a spa luxury into a science-backed protocol for heart health, brain protection, and mood resilience. We explain how heat exposure mimics the cardiovascular effects of aerobic exercise, activates cellular repair pathways, and delivers benefits that compound when paired with your existing training. The goal is to demystify sauna dosing so you can apply it safely and effectively—no extremes required.
We break down how sauna creates a passive cardiovascular workout through vasodilation and elevated heart rate, and why adding heat after exercise can drive additional VO₂ max gains. You’ll learn how heat shock proteins protect cells from damage and prevent protein aggregation, and what the landmark Finnish research reveals: 4–7 weekly sessions are linked to a 66% lower dementia risk. We outline the minimum effective dose—20 minutes at 179–185°F—and compare dry sauna vs. infrared, including the time trade-offs needed for similar physiological effects.
We also cover the principles of hormesis, showing why chasing extreme heat can backfire, plus practical tactics like wool hats, hydration, and electrolytes to keep sessions safe and comfortable. Finally, we explore sauna’s powerful mental-health effects, including evidence for a durable antidepressant response.
High-volume keywords used: sauna benefits, longevity, VO2 max, heat shock proteins, dementia risk, infrared vs dry sauna, cardiovascular health, mental health
Listener Takeaways
- How sauna mimics cardio and boosts heart health
- Why post-exercise heat adds extra VO₂ max improvements
- Heat shock proteins as a cellular repair and neuroprotective defense
- The science-backed dose: 20 minutes at 179–185°F
- Safety, comfort, and mental-health tools for sustainable practice
Follow for daily longevity and wellness episodes.
This podcast is created by Ai for educational and entertainment purposes only and does not constitute professional medical or health advice. Please talk to your healthcare team for medical advice.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome back to the deep dive.
Today we are uh literallyturning up the heat.
We're taking a reallycomprehensive look at deliberate
heat exposure.
And specifically, we're talkingabout sauna use.
Right.
For so many years, this was justyou know, it it was relegated to
simple relaxation.
SPEAKER_00 (00:17):
Aaron Ross Powell or a post-workout treat, something
like that.
SPEAKER_01 (00:19):
Exactly.
But what the science is nowshowing, I mean, it suggests
it's one of the most powerful uhnon-pharmacological
interventions we have forlongevity and crucially for
brain health.
SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
Aaron Powell It's really the data that changes
everything because for a longtime the elephant in the room
was what we call the healthyuser bias.
Ah, yes.
Aaron Powell You see thesestudies where high sauna usage
correlates with better healthoutcomes.
But the question was always,well, is it the sauna?
SPEAKER_01 (00:46):
Aaron Powell Or is it just that the people who use
the sauna also happen to runmarathons and you know eat kale?
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (00:51):
Precisely.
That was my exact skepticism.
I was convinced the evidence wasjust capturing people who
already had a healthierlifestyle.
SPEAKER_01 (00:57):
Aaron Powell But our deep dive today is all about the
causal data, the mechanism thathas convinced even, I think, the
biggest skeptics.
Right.
That sauna use is a legitimateintervention that can
significantly reduce risk,especially for something as
complex and frankly terrifyingas dementia.
SPEAKER_00 (01:15):
And that's the mission today.
We're going to break down thedata that really shifts that
perception.
I'm still a huge advocate fordeliberate heat exposure.
Okay.
And to understand why it works,we're going to follow two key
threads.
First, how it mimics and evenamplifies cardiovascular
exercise.
SPEAKER_01 (01:33):
And the second.
SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
The second is the really profound cellular defense
mechanism that heat activates,which is known as the heat shock
protein response.
SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
Okay, let's start right there with the physical
connection.
I'm sitting motionless in a hotroom.
How I how is that giving my bodybenefits that are comparable to
actually getting up and moving?
SPEAKER_00 (01:51):
It's essentially a passive cardiovascular workout.
When your body is exposed tothat intense heat, your core
temperature starts to rise.
And your body's immediatedefense is to prevent
overheating.
That defense is massivevasodilation.
Your blood vessels just open upwide.
SPEAKER_01 (02:07):
So the goal is just to get the heat out.
SPEAKER_00 (02:09):
Exactly.
To shunt heat from your core outto the surface of your skin,
where you can then dissipate itthrough sweat.
SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
And that action?
SPEAKER_00 (02:16):
That action lowers your overall vascular
resistance, so your heart has tocompensate.
It has to work harder.
SPEAKER_01 (02:21):
So your heart rate goes up.
SPEAKER_00 (02:22):
It goes up significantly, often to a level
that's comparable to what you'dexperience during, say, moderate
intensity cardio.
SPEAKER_01 (02:28):
That makes perfect sense.
The heart's pumping faster tomove the blood, but now it's
moving through much wider pipes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
And that increased perfusion that improves
circulatory health is alwaysconnected to brain health.
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
Always.
SPEAKER_00 (02:39):
Anything that keeps your arteries clean, elastic,
and efficiently moving oxygen tothe brain, which is an
incredibly energy hungry organ,is just a huge win for cognitive
function.
SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
Aaron Powell And we really see that relationship
solidified in those interventionstudies you mentioned.
Tell us a bit more about the VO2max findings.
SPEAKER_00 (02:58):
Yeah, these studies were so important because they
were designed to test the saunaas an additive benefit.
SPEAKER_01 (03:03):
Not a replacement for exercise.
SPEAKER_00 (03:05):
Exactly.
Researchers took enduranceathletes, split them into
groups.
Some just did their normalendurance training.
And the others.
The others added post-exercisesauna use.
And that group, the sauna group,showed greater improvements in
VO2 max.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
And VO2 max is, I mean, it's the gold standard for
cardiorespiratory fitness.
So the heat wasn't justreplacing exercise, it was
helping the body adapt better tothe exercise that had just
happened.
SPEAKER_00 (03:30):
It essentially amplified the adaptive signals
from the workout.
The combination of the twocreated a more powerful, a
hormetic stressor, forcing agreater adaptation than either
one alone.
SPEAKER_01 (03:42):
Aaron Powell It helps you get more bang for your
exercise buck.
SPEAKER_00 (03:45):
That's a great way to put it.
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
So that work on the macro level, the heart and
circulation, that's compelling.
But it sounds like you'rehinting at something even more
fundamental, somethingprotective at the cellular level
for the brain.
SPEAKER_00 (03:56):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
That's the heat shock protein mechanism.
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
Aaron Powell Exactly.
If the cardiovascular link isthe bridge to brain health, then
the molecular mechanism of heatshock proteins.
That's the foundation.
This goes deep into cellulardefense.
SPEAKER_01 (04:09):
So for those of us who aren't biologists, what
exactly are heat shock proteinsor HSPs and why is heat the
trigger?
SPEAKER_00 (04:17):
Okay, so think of the proteins in your body like
tiny, intricate machines.
They have to fold themselvesinto a very precise 3D shape to
work right.
Right.
When you introduce a stressorlike high heat, some of those
proteins can get damaged orstart to unfold.
Imagine a crucial piece offishing line getting hopelessly
tangled.
SPEAKER_01 (04:35):
The tangle stops it from working.
SPEAKER_00 (04:37):
Exactly.
The heat shock protein responseis this ancient fundamental
defense mechanism.
The moment your cells detectthat heat stress, they massively
ramp up production of HSPs.
SPEAKER_01 (04:48):
And what do they do?
SPEAKER_00 (04:49):
These proteins, they act as chaperones.
Their job is to rush in, grabthose misfolded proteins, and
help refold them properly.
They are the essential qualitycontrol and repair crew for your
cells.
SPEAKER_01 (04:59):
And what kind of dose are we talking about?
What does it take to triggerthis?
SPEAKER_00 (05:02):
We have some pretty specific data on that.
If you're in a traditional drysauna, about 163 degrees
Fahrenheit for 30 minutes isenough.
SPEAKER_01 (05:11):
For 30 minutes.
SPEAKER_00 (05:12):
Right.
That'll get you about a 50%increase in circulating heat
shock proteins over yourbaseline.
SPEAKER_01 (05:18):
Aaron Powell What about a hot bath?
Could you get it that way?
SPEAKER_00 (05:21):
You can mimic it, yeah.
About 20 minutes in 104 degreeFahrenheit water with your
shoulders submerged.
SPEAKER_01 (05:26):
So those are really actionable data points.
The crucial insight, though, isthat these HSPs don't just work
while you're sitting in theheat, do they?
SPEAKER_00 (05:34):
No, and that's the key to their long-term value.
The HSPs are activated by thestress, but they stay active and
circulating for a good whileafter you've left the heat.
SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
So they keep working.
SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
They keep working.
They improve the overallefficiency and quality control
of protein folding throughoutyour body long after your core
temperature is back to normal.
SPEAKER_01 (05:54):
And this leads us directly to dementia and
Alzheimer's, where misfoldedproteins like amyloid beta are
the central problem.
SPEAKER_00 (06:02):
Precisely.
We see really strong supportingevidence from preclinical
models.
When researchers activate theseHSPs in animal models, like the
classic worm studies, they foundthat this activation prevents
the aggregation of amyloidbeta-42.
SPEAKER_01 (06:16):
Which is the specific protein implicated in
Alzheimer's.
SPEAKER_00 (06:19):
It is.
In the worms, this protectedthem against muscle paralysis.
For us, it offers a reallypowerful mechanism of defense
against those neurologicaltangles we associate with the
dementia.
SPEAKER_01 (06:29):
But we don't just have to rely on worms, right?
This mechanism seems totranslate to massive protection
in human population studies.
SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
Aaron Powell That's where the finished data from Dr.
Yariel Alokinen's lab comes in,and the findings are just
they're hard to dismiss.
SPEAKER_01 (06:44):
Aaron Powell What do they find?
SPEAKER_00 (06:45):
They demonstrated that for individuals using the
sauna four to seven times perweek, compared to those using it
just once a week, the risk forall-cause dementia and
Alzheimer's disease was 66%lower.
SPEAKER_01 (06:57):
Aaron Powell 66%.
That figure alone is juststaggering.
It's enough to make anyonerethink their weekly routine.
What was the specific protocolthey used to get that benefit?
SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
Aaron Powell The beneficial zone was pretty
clearly defined.
It was 179 degrees Fahrenheit orgreater for sessions that lasted
20 minutes or greater.
SPEAKER_01 (07:15):
Aaron Powell So that establishes a powerful minimum
effective dose.
SPEAKER_00 (07:18):
It does for both frequency and intensity.
SPEAKER_01 (07:20):
Aaron Powell Okay.
That brings us immediately tothe practical questions everyone
asks.
Starting with the equipment,we've been talking about
traditional dry saunas, youknow, operating in the high
170s, 180s.
What about infrared saunas?
SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
The IR saunas, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:34):
They typically run much cooler, maybe 140 degrees.
Do those gig benefits stillapply?
SPEAKER_00 (07:40):
Aaron Powell That's where we need to look really
closely at the data comparingthe two.
If you take a traditional highheat dry sauna and a cooler IR
sauna for the same amount oftime, say 20 minutes, the IR
sauna just does not produce thesame cardiovascular effect.
Your heart rate doesn't jump ashigh, your core temp doesn't
rise as much because the ambientheat is so much lower.
SPEAKER_01 (08:01):
So if I have an IR sauna, I have to trade time for
temperature to get to a similarstress level.
How much of a trade-off are wetalking about?
SPEAKER_00 (08:08):
The current thinking suggests you might need to
almost double the duration.
SPEAKER_01 (08:12):
Double it.
SPEAKER_00 (08:12):
Yeah.
If you want to mimic the heartrate response you'd get from 20
minutes in a 175 degree drysauna, you might need to plan
for 40 minutes, maybe even a bitlonger, in that lower temp IR
environment.
You can get there, but it takesmore patience.
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
Aaron Powell That's a really important distinction
for anyone deciding on equipmentor just trying to manage their
time.
Now let's talk about hormesis, aconcept we've touched on.
SPEAKER_00 (08:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
The body needs a certain amount of stress to
adapt, but if you go too hard,you risk losing the benefit.
Where's that line?
SPEAKER_00 (08:42):
You absolutely have to get the stress hormetically
correct.
My real concern and what thesource material really
underscores is this go hard, gohome mentality.
SPEAKER_01 (08:52):
The idea that if 180 is good, 220 must be better.
SPEAKER_00 (08:56):
Exactly.
Or if four times a week is good,seven must be better.
There's an explicit downside tochasing those extremes.
SPEAKER_01 (09:03):
You're referring to that other finished study.
SPEAKER_00 (09:05):
Yes, another critical piece of data where
they stratified the results bytemperature.
And while the benefits werecrystal clear in that sweet
spot, the 179 plus range.
SPEAKER_01 (09:14):
What happened when they went higher?
SPEAKER_00 (09:16):
When participants pushed into the extreme heat,
we're talking above 200 degreesFahrenheit, with the average use
around 212 Hitchy, theirdementia risk actually showed an
increase.
SPEAKER_01 (09:26):
Wow.
So by overstressing the system,they move from a zone of
protection into a zone ofpotential risk.
SPEAKER_00 (09:32):
That's right.
The body is stressed, but maybetoo aggressively.
You push past that beneficialadaptive threshold and start
inducing, you know, unnecessaryand maybe even damaging
inflammation or neurologicalstress.
SPEAKER_01 (09:44):
So what's the takeaway?
SPEAKER_00 (09:45):
The data strongly supports that you do not need to
go above 185 to 190 degrees tocapture the maximal benefit.
Stay in that 179 to 185 zonefour to seven times a week, and
you are maximizing the benefitwhile minimizing the risk.
SPEAKER_01 (09:59):
On a practical note, what about those wool sauna
hats?
It seems counterintuitive whenthe goal is to get hot.
Why would you shield your head?
SPEAKER_00 (10:08):
It does seem counterintuitive because a hat
retains heat.
But the head is where peopleoften report the most
discomfort.
Headaches, feeling overheated,and it makes them leave early.
The hat shields the brain fromthat direct, intense heat.
And practically it just allowspeople to stay in that
beneficial temperature range forthe full 20 minutes without
pushing into that uncomfortable,possibly risky territory.
SPEAKER_01 (10:30):
And we can't discuss high heat without stressing
hydration.
What are the big concerns?
SPEAKER_00 (10:35):
Hydration is just non-negotiable.
And it's not just water, it'selectrolytes.
When you sweat intensely for 20to 40 minutes, you are losing a
lot of sodium.
Right.
The serious concern ishyponitremia or water
intoxication, where you dilutethe sodium in your blood because
you're only replacing water.
If you're using the saunafrequently, you have to be
(10:56):
proactive about electrolytereplacement.
SPEAKER_01 (10:59):
That shift gears a bit, away from the physical and
molecular benefits and into thepsychological.
You've mentioned that the mentalhealth boost was actually your
entry point into this years ago.
SPEAKER_00 (11:09):
That's right.
This was back around 2008.
I was using the sauna dailysimply because of the profound
impact it had on my mentalstate.
SPEAKER_01 (11:16):
Before all this data was really solidified.
SPEAKER_00 (11:18):
Long before.
It was just an incredible toolfor dealing with stress, for
clearing my mind, for reducingambient anxiety.
It was that feeling of calmresilience that hooked me way
before I understood the VO2 Maxor the HS tree mechanism.
SPEAKER_01 (11:32):
And now that subjective experience is backed
by some truly groundbreakingclinical research, especially
with depression.
SPEAKER_00 (11:39):
Yes, this is where the collaboration with Dr.
Ashley Mason is just phenomenal.
She's a psychologist who haspioneered using whole-body
hyperthermia for mood disorders.
SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
And she ran a study on individuals with major
depressive disorder.
SPEAKER_00 (11:55):
A truly stunning, carefully controlled study.
They used a specialized infrareddevice, and over 85 minutes,
they raised the participants'core body temperature by nearly
two degrees Celsius, a veryprecise, significant thermal
dose.
SPEAKER_01 (12:10):
A single session.
And what happened after that onetreatment?
SPEAKER_00 (12:14):
The results were just shocking.
That single heat treatmentproduced a significant and
durable antidepressant effectthat lasted for six months
compared to the control groups.
Yes.
Six months of relief from asingle exposure.
That's virtually unheard of inpsychiatric interventions.
SPEAKER_01 (12:29):
That durability is what's so compelling.
Yeah.
Do we know the mechanism there?
Is it the same HSP response oris something else going on?
SPEAKER_00 (12:35):
It's likely multifaceted, but researchers
think it involves a profoundreset of thermoregulatory and
inflammatory circuits in thebody.
In chronic depression, thebody's inflammatory response can
get dysregulated.
By introducing this massivecontrolled heat stress, you
might be resetting the brain'sthermostat, leading to a cascade
of anti-inflammatory effectsthat persist and create that
(12:57):
incredible, durable mood lift.
SPEAKER_01 (12:59):
This deep dive has really shifted the view of the
sauna from a simple luxury to apowerful evidence-based health
tool.
So to recap for you, thelistener, first, sauna use is a
proven cardiovascular aid.
SPEAKER_00 (13:12):
It effectively mimics moderate exercise and can
even amplify your VO2 maximprovements.
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
Second, the molecular defense, that heat
shock protein response, isactivated in a predictable way.
It protects the brain bypreventing protein misfolding.
SPEAKER_00 (13:26):
Which is linked to that incredible 66% lower risk
of dementia when you use it fourto seven times a week in that
sweet spot.
SPEAKER_01 (13:32):
And finally, the benefits extended to profound
and durable mental healthimprovement.
We're talking single sessionsproviding antidepressant effects
that last for half a year.
But remember the nuance.
Respect the dose.
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
Absolutely.
The sweet spot, around 179 to185 degrees Fahrenheit for 20
minutes, four to seven times aweek, that provides the maximal
documented benefit.
Don't chase extremes above 200degrees.
The data shows a potential riskincrease with no added reward.
SPEAKER_01 (14:01):
So if simply subjecting our bodies to
controlled temporaryenvironmental stress like heat
can activate these fundamentalprotective cellular mechanisms
like HSPs, mechanisms that boostresilience and longevity, what
does this suggest about the restof our environment?
SPEAKER_00 (14:16):
It raises a really important question, doesn't it?
What other daily controllablestressors, whether it's
controlled cold exposure orbrief periods of caloric
restriction or even intensemental challenges, can we
intentionally harness in ahormetic way to improve our
health?
SPEAKER_01 (14:31):
It seems like we're realizing the body needs these
temporary challenges to stayrobust.
SPEAKER_00 (14:35):
It absolutely does.
And that's something to thinkabout the next time you decide
to push yourself just a littlebit outside of your comfort
zone.
Welcome back to the deep dive.
Today we are uh literallyturning up the heat.
We're taking a reallycomprehensive look at deliberate
heat exposure.
And specifically, we're talkingabout sauna use.
Right.
For so many years, this was justyou know, it it was relegated to
simple relaxation.
SPEAKER_00 (00:17):
Aaron Ross Powell or a post-workout treat, something
like that.
SPEAKER_01 (00:19):
Exactly.
But what the science is nowshowing, I mean, it suggests
it's one of the most powerful uhnon-pharmacological
interventions we have forlongevity and crucially for
brain health.
SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
Aaron Powell It's really the data that changes
everything because for a longtime the elephant in the room
was what we call the healthyuser bias.
Ah, yes.
Aaron Powell You see thesestudies where high sauna usage
correlates with better healthoutcomes.
But the question was always,well, is it the sauna?
SPEAKER_01 (00:46):
Aaron Powell Or is it just that the people who use
the sauna also happen to runmarathons and you know eat kale?
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (00:51):
Precisely.
That was my exact skepticism.
I was convinced the evidence wasjust capturing people who
already had a healthierlifestyle.
SPEAKER_01 (00:57):
Aaron Powell But our deep dive today is all about the
causal data, the mechanism thathas convinced even, I think, the
biggest skeptics.
Right.
That sauna use is a legitimateintervention that can
significantly reduce risk,especially for something as
complex and frankly terrifyingas dementia.
SPEAKER_00 (01:15):
And that's the mission today.
We're going to break down thedata that really shifts that
perception.
I'm still a huge advocate fordeliberate heat exposure.
Okay.
And to understand why it works,we're going to follow two key
threads.
First, how it mimics and evenamplifies cardiovascular
exercise.
SPEAKER_01 (01:33):
And the second.
SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
The second is the really profound cellular defense
mechanism that heat activates,which is known as the heat shock
protein response.
SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
Okay, let's start right there with the physical
connection.
I'm sitting motionless in a hotroom.
How I how is that giving my bodybenefits that are comparable to
actually getting up and moving?
SPEAKER_00 (01:51):
It's essentially a passive cardiovascular workout.
When your body is exposed tothat intense heat, your core
temperature starts to rise.
And your body's immediatedefense is to prevent
overheating.
That defense is massivevasodilation.
Your blood vessels just open upwide.
SPEAKER_01 (02:07):
So the goal is just to get the heat out.
SPEAKER_00 (02:09):
Exactly.
To shunt heat from your core outto the surface of your skin,
where you can then dissipate itthrough sweat.
SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
And that action?
SPEAKER_00 (02:16):
That action lowers your overall vascular
resistance, so your heart has tocompensate.
It has to work harder.
SPEAKER_01 (02:21):
So your heart rate goes up.
SPEAKER_00 (02:22):
It goes up significantly, often to a level
that's comparable to what you'dexperience during, say, moderate
intensity cardio.
SPEAKER_01 (02:28):
That makes perfect sense.
The heart's pumping faster tomove the blood, but now it's
moving through much wider pipes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
And that increased perfusion that improves
circulatory health is alwaysconnected to brain health.
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
Always.
SPEAKER_00 (02:39):
Anything that keeps your arteries clean, elastic,
and efficiently moving oxygen tothe brain, which is an
incredibly energy hungry organ,is just a huge win for cognitive
function.
SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
Aaron Powell And we really see that relationship
solidified in those interventionstudies you mentioned.
Tell us a bit more about the VO2max findings.
SPEAKER_00 (02:58):
Yeah, these studies were so important because they
were designed to test the saunaas an additive benefit.
SPEAKER_01 (03:03):
Not a replacement for exercise.
SPEAKER_00 (03:05):
Exactly.
Researchers took enduranceathletes, split them into
groups.
Some just did their normalendurance training.
And the others.
The others added post-exercisesauna use.
And that group, the sauna group,showed greater improvements in
VO2 max.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
And VO2 max is, I mean, it's the gold standard for
cardiorespiratory fitness.
So the heat wasn't justreplacing exercise, it was
helping the body adapt better tothe exercise that had just
happened.
SPEAKER_00 (03:30):
It essentially amplified the adaptive signals
from the workout.
The combination of the twocreated a more powerful, a
hormetic stressor, forcing agreater adaptation than either
one alone.
SPEAKER_01 (03:42):
Aaron Powell It helps you get more bang for your
exercise buck.
SPEAKER_00 (03:45):
That's a great way to put it.
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
So that work on the macro level, the heart and
circulation, that's compelling.
But it sounds like you'rehinting at something even more
fundamental, somethingprotective at the cellular level
for the brain.
SPEAKER_00 (03:56):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
That's the heat shock protein mechanism.
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
Aaron Powell Exactly.
If the cardiovascular link isthe bridge to brain health, then
the molecular mechanism of heatshock proteins.
That's the foundation.
This goes deep into cellulardefense.
SPEAKER_01 (04:09):
So for those of us who aren't biologists, what
exactly are heat shock proteinsor HSPs and why is heat the
trigger?
SPEAKER_00 (04:17):
Okay, so think of the proteins in your body like
tiny, intricate machines.
They have to fold themselvesinto a very precise 3D shape to
work right.
Right.
When you introduce a stressorlike high heat, some of those
proteins can get damaged orstart to unfold.
Imagine a crucial piece offishing line getting hopelessly
tangled.
SPEAKER_01 (04:35):
The tangle stops it from working.
SPEAKER_00 (04:37):
Exactly.
The heat shock protein responseis this ancient fundamental
defense mechanism.
The moment your cells detectthat heat stress, they massively
ramp up production of HSPs.
SPEAKER_01 (04:48):
And what do they do?
SPEAKER_00 (04:49):
These proteins, they act as chaperones.
Their job is to rush in, grabthose misfolded proteins, and
help refold them properly.
They are the essential qualitycontrol and repair crew for your
cells.
SPEAKER_01 (04:59):
And what kind of dose are we talking about?
What does it take to triggerthis?
SPEAKER_00 (05:02):
We have some pretty specific data on that.
If you're in a traditional drysauna, about 163 degrees
Fahrenheit for 30 minutes isenough.
SPEAKER_01 (05:11):
For 30 minutes.
SPEAKER_00 (05:12):
Right.
That'll get you about a 50%increase in circulating heat
shock proteins over yourbaseline.
SPEAKER_01 (05:18):
Aaron Powell What about a hot bath?
Could you get it that way?
SPEAKER_00 (05:21):
You can mimic it, yeah.
About 20 minutes in 104 degreeFahrenheit water with your
shoulders submerged.
SPEAKER_01 (05:26):
So those are really actionable data points.
The crucial insight, though, isthat these HSPs don't just work
while you're sitting in theheat, do they?
SPEAKER_00 (05:34):
No, and that's the key to their long-term value.
The HSPs are activated by thestress, but they stay active and
circulating for a good whileafter you've left the heat.
SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
So they keep working.
SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
They keep working.
They improve the overallefficiency and quality control
of protein folding throughoutyour body long after your core
temperature is back to normal.
SPEAKER_01 (05:54):
And this leads us directly to dementia and
Alzheimer's, where misfoldedproteins like amyloid beta are
the central problem.
SPEAKER_00 (06:02):
Precisely.
We see really strong supportingevidence from preclinical
models.
When researchers activate theseHSPs in animal models, like the
classic worm studies, they foundthat this activation prevents
the aggregation of amyloidbeta-42.
SPEAKER_01 (06:16):
Which is the specific protein implicated in
Alzheimer's.
SPEAKER_00 (06:19):
It is.
In the worms, this protectedthem against muscle paralysis.
For us, it offers a reallypowerful mechanism of defense
against those neurologicaltangles we associate with the
dementia.
SPEAKER_01 (06:29):
But we don't just have to rely on worms, right?
This mechanism seems totranslate to massive protection
in human population studies.
SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
Aaron Powell That's where the finished data from Dr.
Yariel Alokinen's lab comes in,and the findings are just
they're hard to dismiss.
SPEAKER_01 (06:44):
Aaron Powell What do they find?
SPEAKER_00 (06:45):
They demonstrated that for individuals using the
sauna four to seven times perweek, compared to those using it
just once a week, the risk forall-cause dementia and
Alzheimer's disease was 66%lower.
SPEAKER_01 (06:57):
Aaron Powell 66%.
That figure alone is juststaggering.
It's enough to make anyonerethink their weekly routine.
What was the specific protocolthey used to get that benefit?
SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
Aaron Powell The beneficial zone was pretty
clearly defined.
It was 179 degrees Fahrenheit orgreater for sessions that lasted
20 minutes or greater.
SPEAKER_01 (07:15):
Aaron Powell So that establishes a powerful minimum
effective dose.
SPEAKER_00 (07:18):
It does for both frequency and intensity.
SPEAKER_01 (07:20):
Aaron Powell Okay.
That brings us immediately tothe practical questions everyone
asks.
Starting with the equipment,we've been talking about
traditional dry saunas, youknow, operating in the high
170s, 180s.
What about infrared saunas?
SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
The IR saunas, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:34):
They typically run much cooler, maybe 140 degrees.
Do those gig benefits stillapply?
SPEAKER_00 (07:40):
Aaron Powell That's where we need to look really
closely at the data comparingthe two.
If you take a traditional highheat dry sauna and a cooler IR
sauna for the same amount oftime, say 20 minutes, the IR
sauna just does not produce thesame cardiovascular effect.
Your heart rate doesn't jump ashigh, your core temp doesn't
rise as much because the ambientheat is so much lower.
SPEAKER_01 (08:01):
So if I have an IR sauna, I have to trade time for
temperature to get to a similarstress level.
How much of a trade-off are wetalking about?
SPEAKER_00 (08:08):
The current thinking suggests you might need to
almost double the duration.
SPEAKER_01 (08:12):
Double it.
SPEAKER_00 (08:12):
Yeah.
If you want to mimic the heartrate response you'd get from 20
minutes in a 175 degree drysauna, you might need to plan
for 40 minutes, maybe even a bitlonger, in that lower temp IR
environment.
You can get there, but it takesmore patience.
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
Aaron Powell That's a really important distinction
for anyone deciding on equipmentor just trying to manage their
time.
Now let's talk about hormesis, aconcept we've touched on.
SPEAKER_00 (08:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
The body needs a certain amount of stress to
adapt, but if you go too hard,you risk losing the benefit.
Where's that line?
SPEAKER_00 (08:42):
You absolutely have to get the stress hormetically
correct.
My real concern and what thesource material really
underscores is this go hard, gohome mentality.
SPEAKER_01 (08:52):
The idea that if 180 is good, 220 must be better.
SPEAKER_00 (08:56):
Exactly.
Or if four times a week is good,seven must be better.
There's an explicit downside tochasing those extremes.
SPEAKER_01 (09:03):
You're referring to that other finished study.
SPEAKER_00 (09:05):
Yes, another critical piece of data where
they stratified the results bytemperature.
And while the benefits werecrystal clear in that sweet
spot, the 179 plus range.
SPEAKER_01 (09:14):
What happened when they went higher?
SPEAKER_00 (09:16):
When participants pushed into the extreme heat,
we're talking above 200 degreesFahrenheit, with the average use
around 212 Hitchy, theirdementia risk actually showed an
increase.
SPEAKER_01 (09:26):
Wow.
So by overstressing the system,they move from a zone of
protection into a zone ofpotential risk.
SPEAKER_00 (09:32):
That's right.
The body is stressed, but maybetoo aggressively.
You push past that beneficialadaptive threshold and start
inducing, you know, unnecessaryand maybe even damaging
inflammation or neurologicalstress.
SPEAKER_01 (09:44):
So what's the takeaway?
SPEAKER_00 (09:45):
The data strongly supports that you do not need to
go above 185 to 190 degrees tocapture the maximal benefit.
Stay in that 179 to 185 zonefour to seven times a week, and
you are maximizing the benefitwhile minimizing the risk.
SPEAKER_01 (09:59):
On a practical note, what about those wool sauna
hats?
It seems counterintuitive whenthe goal is to get hot.
Why would you shield your head?
SPEAKER_00 (10:08):
It does seem counterintuitive because a hat
retains heat.
But the head is where peopleoften report the most
discomfort.
Headaches, feeling overheated,and it makes them leave early.
The hat shields the brain fromthat direct, intense heat.
And practically it just allowspeople to stay in that
beneficial temperature range forthe full 20 minutes without
pushing into that uncomfortable,possibly risky territory.
SPEAKER_01 (10:30):
And we can't discuss high heat without stressing
hydration.
What are the big concerns?
SPEAKER_00 (10:35):
Hydration is just non-negotiable.
And it's not just water, it'selectrolytes.
When you sweat intensely for 20to 40 minutes, you are losing a
lot of sodium.
Right.
The serious concern ishyponitremia or water
intoxication, where you dilutethe sodium in your blood because
you're only replacing water.
If you're using the saunafrequently, you have to be
(10:56):
proactive about electrolytereplacement.
SPEAKER_01 (10:59):
That shift gears a bit, away from the physical and
molecular benefits and into thepsychological.
You've mentioned that the mentalhealth boost was actually your
entry point into this years ago.
SPEAKER_00 (11:09):
That's right.
This was back around 2008.
I was using the sauna dailysimply because of the profound
impact it had on my mentalstate.
SPEAKER_01 (11:16):
Before all this data was really solidified.
SPEAKER_00 (11:18):
Long before.
It was just an incredible toolfor dealing with stress, for
clearing my mind, for reducingambient anxiety.
It was that feeling of calmresilience that hooked me way
before I understood the VO2 Maxor the HS tree mechanism.
SPEAKER_01 (11:32):
And now that subjective experience is backed
by some truly groundbreakingclinical research, especially
with depression.
SPEAKER_00 (11:39):
Yes, this is where the collaboration with Dr.
Ashley Mason is just phenomenal.
She's a psychologist who haspioneered using whole-body
hyperthermia for mood disorders.
SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
And she ran a study on individuals with major
depressive disorder.
SPEAKER_00 (11:55):
A truly stunning, carefully controlled study.
They used a specialized infrareddevice, and over 85 minutes,
they raised the participants'core body temperature by nearly
two degrees Celsius, a veryprecise, significant thermal
dose.
SPEAKER_01 (12:10):
A single session.
And what happened after that onetreatment?
SPEAKER_00 (12:14):
The results were just shocking.
That single heat treatmentproduced a significant and
durable antidepressant effectthat lasted for six months
compared to the control groups.
Yes.
Six months of relief from asingle exposure.
That's virtually unheard of inpsychiatric interventions.
SPEAKER_01 (12:29):
That durability is what's so compelling.
Yeah.
Do we know the mechanism there?
Is it the same HSP response oris something else going on?
SPEAKER_00 (12:35):
It's likely multifaceted, but researchers
think it involves a profoundreset of thermoregulatory and
inflammatory circuits in thebody.
In chronic depression, thebody's inflammatory response can
get dysregulated.
By introducing this massivecontrolled heat stress, you
might be resetting the brain'sthermostat, leading to a cascade
of anti-inflammatory effectsthat persist and create that
(12:57):
incredible, durable mood lift.
SPEAKER_01 (12:59):
This deep dive has really shifted the view of the
sauna from a simple luxury to apowerful evidence-based health
tool.
So to recap for you, thelistener, first, sauna use is a
proven cardiovascular aid.
SPEAKER_00 (13:12):
It effectively mimics moderate exercise and can
even amplify your VO2 maximprovements.
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
Second, the molecular defense, that heat
shock protein response, isactivated in a predictable way.
It protects the brain bypreventing protein misfolding.
SPEAKER_00 (13:26):
Which is linked to that incredible 66% lower risk
of dementia when you use it fourto seven times a week in that
sweet spot.
SPEAKER_01 (13:32):
And finally, the benefits extended to profound
and durable mental healthimprovement.
We're talking single sessionsproviding antidepressant effects
that last for half a year.
But remember the nuance.
Respect the dose.
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
Absolutely.
The sweet spot, around 179 to185 degrees Fahrenheit for 20
minutes, four to seven times aweek, that provides the maximal
documented benefit.
Don't chase extremes above 200degrees.
The data shows a potential riskincrease with no added reward.
SPEAKER_01 (14:01):
So if simply subjecting our bodies to
controlled temporaryenvironmental stress like heat
can activate these fundamentalprotective cellular mechanisms
like HSPs, mechanisms that boostresilience and longevity, what
does this suggest about the restof our environment?
SPEAKER_00 (14:16):
It raises a really important question, doesn't it?
What other daily controllablestressors, whether it's
controlled cold exposure orbrief periods of caloric
restriction or even intensemental challenges, can we
intentionally harness in ahormetic way to improve our
health?
SPEAKER_01 (14:31):
It seems like we're realizing the body needs these
temporary challenges to stayrobust.
SPEAKER_00 (14:35):
It absolutely does.
And that's something to thinkabout the next time you decide
to push yourself just a littlebit outside of your comfort
zone.
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