August 12, 2025 • 49 mins
Want a high-paying plumbing trade career? Daniel Quinonez joins Andrew Brown to share plumbing apprenticeship programs, PHCC Educational Foundation training, and plumbing job opportunities.
Host Andrew Brown talks with Daniel Quinonez, COO of the Plumbing-Heating-Cooling Contractors Association and leader within the PHCC Educational Foundation, about building successful plumbing trade careers. They break down plumbing apprenticeship programs, the demand for high-paying skilled trades, and how to access the best plumbing job opportunities.
From career changers to young apprentices, Daniel shares insider tips on navigating the trades industry, breaking misconceptions about plumbers, and finding your place among tradespeople in plumbing, HVAC, carpentry, and beyond.
IN THIS EPISODE:
(00:00) – Introduction: Why the trades industry needs more plumbers and how plumbing trade careers are thriving.
(05:22) – Plumbing apprenticeship programs explained: pay, timelines, and earning while learning.
(12:47) – The PHCC Educational Foundation: training, scholarships, and advocacy for skilled trades.
(21:33) – The truth about high-paying skilled trades and entrepreneurship in plumbing, HVAC, and carpentry.
(33:15) – Career changers in the trades industry: from corporate jobs to plumbing job opportunities.
(45:50) – Why craftsmanship, problem-solving, and creativity define great trades careers.
Key Takeaways:
● Plumbing trade careers can lead to six-figure incomes without college debt.
● Plumbing apprenticeship programs offer hands-on training, certification, and industry connections.
● The PHCC Educational Foundation empowers tradespeople with resources and scholarships.
● High-paying skilled trades like plumbing, HVAC, and electrical offer stability, growth, and recession-proof work.
About the Guest:
Daniel Quinonez is the Chief Operating Officer of the Plumbing-Heating-Cooling Contractors Association and a driving force behind the PHCC Educational Foundation. A veteran advocate for skilled trades education, Daniel works with contractors, industry experts, and the Skilled Trades Advisory Council to expand plumbing apprenticeship programs and create more plumbing job opportunities nationwide. His work spans multiple trades—including plumbing, HVAC, carpentry, and construction—while championing craftsmanship, problem-solving, and the future of the trades industry.
Keywords:
Plumbing Trade Careers, Plumbing Apprenticeship Programs, PHCC Educational Foundation, High-Paying Skilled Trades, Plumbing Job Opportunities, Skilled Trades, Trades Industry, Andrew Brown, Daniel Quinonez, Plumbing-Heating-Cooling Contractors Association, Skilled Trades Advisory Council, Toolfetch, Carpentry, HVAC, Electricians, Plumbers, Millwrights, Construction, Tradespeople, Contractors, Industry Experts, Advocacy, Education, Craftsmanship, Problem-Solving, Creativity, Trades Careers
Resources:
LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-quinonez-690ba68/
Website: https://www.phccweb.org/
SUPPORT THE SHOW:
If you’re getting value from these episodes and want to help keep the mics on, consider tipping the show here → https://andrewbrowntrades.kit.com/products/toolbox
Every dollar helps us keep bringing unfiltered insights from the trades, straight to your ears.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Plumbing trade is essential.
It, it is part of, you know, the everyfabric of construction and building
process, everything, it's there, butwhat they're missing is, okay, I'm an
apprentice for a few years, making 16,and that $16 is not the case at all.
It's much higher to getan apprenticeship at six.
You're gonna get more like 30 to$40 depending on where you're at
(00:20):
after you've finished that program.
After two to three years,depending on the state you live in.
You make money quickly.
You're making a lot of money.
I mean, well over six figures.
Hi, I'm Andrew Brown.
You're listening to the Lost Star ofthe Skilled Trades Podcast, a show that
shines the spotlight on careers in theskilled trades that are high paying,
(00:44):
honorable, rewarding, and fulfilling.
The trades are the backbone of theeconomy that keep us running, and without
them, our world would cease to exist.
All right, so we're down at Skills USA.
I'm super excited because plumbing.
(01:06):
Has come up so many differenttimes about the shortages.
And I want to get in this, into this.
I brought in an expert, his name isDan Quinonez, if I got that right.
Uh, plumbing, heating Cooling, um,contractors National Association.
You're the Chief Operating Officer.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you so much.
It's a pleasure to be here.
(01:27):
Yeah, likewise.
I wanna throw out this statistic toyou and I want to hear your thoughts.
It said that we need over 550,000 plumbersby 2027, and when you look at those
shortages, you start to say, wow, there'sopportunities in the plumbing world.
What are you seeing from a shortagestandpoint in the plumbing trade?
(01:50):
The plumbing trade is an amazingopportunity, both whether it's
in plumbing, on HVAC techniciantraining, the opportunities there are.
Limitless in the possibilitiesboth for career, financial
success and personal success.
Um, when you mention that numberI've seen over the last few
years, it's a perception issue.
It's that the trades versus the collegeexperience and what I've seen over
(02:15):
the years is that that perceptionissue, is that still looking at the
plumbing contractors that, you know,the low-rise pants bending over the,
those funny stories, plumbers crack.
Yes.
The plumbers crack.
Um.
That was the past.
The times have changed the plumbing careeras a, in that industry has such tremendous
(02:36):
opportunities for personal success and,and, and I've watched entrepreneurs
who have grown these businesses intomultimillion dollar successful businesses.
What I've found over the last fewyears is those contractors are giving
back now to PHCC, our educationalfoundation through scholarship
and apprenticeship and training.
And if more young, the younger generationwould truly enjoy being part of it.
(03:01):
'cause the one area that I foundmost exciting about it is there's a,
it's a community, it's a comradery.
There is friendship.
There's these contractors, whetherthey compete against each other.
They work together, they talkto each other, they grow.
There's, even in their companies,there's a, a bonding that I think that
is rare do you see in the corporateworld and going through college.
(03:23):
Great experience if you wanna doit, if it's the career, your choice.
But if you're unsure, you'regreat with your hands.
You have to be great with math.
Um, if you're an environmentalist,there's an opportunity to
start to grow in that area.
Uh, plumbers were the firstenvironmentalists, clean water, uh,
safe, you know, places to wash yourhands and cook your food and eat.
(03:45):
Most people don't realize howessential a plumber is to that world.
They would say that plumberssave more lives than doctors.
It's been, it, it's interesting for, forclean water and, and, um, you know, our
drinking water, we take it for granted.
But you go to the sink and you drink.
It's not like that ina lot of other places.
No.
You can't just do that.
No, absolutely not.
Uh, if you think of some of the illnesses,Legionnaire's disease, this is constantly
(04:08):
on the mind of that plumber and, and,and the contractors that build out.
It's beyond just the toilet and the sink.
There's a whole system that goesinto, whether it's a residential home,
whether it's a large scale commercialproperty, and you've seen, I mean,
if you go past the stadium or a mall.
I mean, the size and scope of theamount of plumbing that, and it goes
(04:28):
into these buildings is amazing.
And you've seen it in like stories oncruise ships or a casino where, you
know, there's been illness, foodborneillnesses, you know, 'cause they
didn't have clean water or the system.
And if you look at internationally,that's, that's a problem.
You know, and those are the thingsthat spread those illnesses that
we've seen in this, you know, overthe last 20 or so, last five years
(04:48):
with COVID, how, how essential aplumbing sy, you know, contractor was
to kind of provide that information.
We talked about the misconceptions, right?
We talked about, you know, plumbers,crack and that, that type of stuff.
I, I, I do think social media hasreally shown us, you know, especially,
we were talking about Roger Wakefield,who's a well-known plumber, and he
is got a really large, uh, plumbingchannel on YouTube and he's doing great
(05:10):
things teaching the younger generation.
But I, I do think there is pushback andI, and I'm, I'm, I'm taking it from.
Engagement online.
So let's say, uh, TikTok, right?
There's a lot of activity there,especially I have a large following
there, and the comments are, you know,I don't wanna work with my hands.
(05:31):
I only make $16 an hour in anapprenticeship as an apprentice.
ICI can't, I can't pay my bills.
How do I do that?
What do you say to those peoplewho are like, it's not worth it
because I'm not gonna make the money.
It's funny that people say that I,you know, understanding the college
experience and I've had a chance totalk to like high school counselors
and stuff, there was always this wayof saying, well, you're a straight A
(05:52):
student, you should go into college.
And so I think some of that, and it'ssomewhat controversial to say that I
do think high schools and or counselorsare pushing so they can say, you know,
80% of our kids have gone to college.
But when you look at the number afterthose kids leave, how many of those
kids actually finished a degree Exactly.
And go into the, the, the career.
(06:13):
They actually, you know, I'm apolitical science major and I work in
a plumbing contractors association.
Um, it, it makes no sense.
You know, most of the kids I knowthey that go through college sometimes
never even end up in the career choice.
They end, they're working somewhere else.
And then that's the shocking part isthat now you've come out with a hundred
thousand dollars in student debt.
You know, you may have partied a lotin college of course, because let's
(06:35):
face it, I mean, especially on TikTok,you look at University of Alabama, who
doesn't want to go there and have agood time, it's a great school for that.
A lot of colleges are great party schools,but at the end of the day, you're not
prepared to get out into the workforce.
Even on the corporate side, theystruggle with the kids coming out.
And now with introduction of AI, withthe ability to replace, you know,
(06:55):
low level staffers, um, that's scary.
Whereas.
Plumbing trade is essential.
It, it is part of, you know, the everyfabric of construction and building
process, everything, it's there, butwhat they're missing is, okay, I'm an
apprentice for a few years, making 16,and that $16 is not the case at all.
It's much higher to getan apprenticeship at six.
(07:18):
You're gonna get more like 30 to$40 depending on where you're at
after you've finished that program.
After two to three years,depending on the state you live in.
You make money quickly and you know, ifyou start, say you get into a program
at 18, 19 years old, by the time you'redone at 21, you know you're coming
in, you're a journeyman, you get yourlicense, you're done, you're working,
you're out in the field, you're gonnawork, you're making a lot of money.
(07:40):
I mean, well over six figures ina lot of regions of the country.
A UA contractor that's beenin maybe about 10 years.
I saw the quote in New YorkCity was 160,000 a year.
Boston was like, same thing, 160,000.
Um, but even places like Alabama, Georgia,Mississippi, you're still making a lot of
money because you're in such high demand.
(08:01):
Yeah.
And, and I know certain, uh, locationslike New York or California, you're
gonna make just the higher cost of, ofliving, but there's, there's that argument
out there from the younger generation.
It's not everybody, you know, Idon't feel it here at Skills USA when
you have all these kids who are solike, dialed in, they're intense.
Yeah.
They're, they're intense.
And, and I know a lot of themare probably gonna do very well.
(08:23):
Um, but there are a lot of people whoare, you know, saying like, ah, this is
not the right path for me if, if I am16, 17 years old, because this is really
what I want the audience to listen to.
'cause a lot of the youngergeneration listening to what can
I start doing at that age to besuccessful in the plumbing chain?
(08:43):
Where do I go first?
Because.
I feel like you don't get that in school.
You're sitting down withthe guidance counselor.
They're saying, what collegedo you want to go to?
If your family's saying goto college, where do you go?
Like, what's the steps?
Well, and it's an honest discussionyou have to have with your family,
your parents, and you know, yourschool counselor and just say, I
don't know if college is for me,but I love working with my hands.
(09:03):
I love, you know, I love building, um,getting into STEM or STEAM programs and
understanding, you know, where those.
What you find an interest in, um, ifyou have an a, a, a, a care for the
environment and you know, things likethat, which you find that's happening.
More and more folk kids are gettinginto the plumbing trades because
they do care about those things.
(09:24):
And, you know, looking at that andstart talking to your counselor, PhD, HC
the Educational Foundation has a, a, aprogram, a workforce readiness program.
You can go on that line, our websitethat's free, where you can kind of get
an understanding of what it's like to be.
In the plumbing contracting world,the dark, you know, the dark, dirty,
you know, getting under the, the, someof the areas, getting into the, like,
(09:46):
the basements and understanding, soyou get a sense, you still like it.
Then they, we encourage you togo take our pre-apprenticeship
course, which is a $29 course.
But it's a course that you can takeand it gets more into the nitty
gritty of being a plumbing contractorand really help you understand
what you're getting yourself into.
You know, you have to be comfortablegetting into a crawl space.
You have to understand, like, listen,a, a basement may be flooded with
(10:08):
something, you know, excrements.
You gotta be comfortable with that.
Um, so they get understanding, take it.
And then if they pass, theytake a, a quiz at the end, they
get the certification in it.
They can take that to a plumbingcontractor, say, I'm serious
about getting into this industry.
That contractor knowing they'll seethe PHEC brand on that will immediately
say, okay, you've taken the stepsthat you want to get into this.
(10:32):
We're gonna put you into this program.
And it may be a program with alocal com, like a brick and mortar
school that will put you through oran online apprenticeship program.
And most states, relatively,it's two to three years.
So you start at a younger age, youstart to build into your career faster,
and you start earning those hoursand you get that hands-on training.
(10:53):
You do the online program.
So before you know it, you know,and you know the whole $16 an hour.
Trust me, I don't, Imean, it's much higher.
I'm glad to hear that.
Yeah, they really, they workvery hard, but not only.
You're working hard, but they'll payyou if they see a good employee that
shows up on time, that's willing toput the hours in, is professional,
(11:13):
you know, really ready to work.
I know almost every contractorI've worked with will help groom
that person into being a contractor'cause they want to see the success.
The stories that I have of plumbingcontractors who started out as a
young apprentice, maybe five yearsnow, they're actually starting
to own their own businesses.
(11:34):
They're moving on, they're settingup their own trucks, and they're
making sign significant dollars.
Entrepreneurship.
I mean, absolutely.
Yeah.
Um, and here's the, the caveat.
In most areas, you don't have topay for the apprenticeship program.
You can get.
We, PHC Foundation has ascholarship to pay for their
training over three to four years.
Um, some of the communities willpay, some of the employers will pay.
(11:56):
So you're coming out, you graduatein say, three years through wait.
You're still getting paid, you'reearning while you're learning.
Um, but you have no debt.
So now you're suddenly now making70, 80, $90,000 a year in your
early twenties with no debt.
I mean, I know I had debt.
I mean, my wife, everybody I know comesoutta college with significant debt.
Yeah, great.
You make a job, you 50, $60,000 a year.
(12:18):
Wonderful.
You still got the debt.
Debt.
Guess what?
Yeah, I could say that.
I went to school for college forfour years, university of Rhode
Island, and I came out more lostoutta school than I was in school.
And I was a programmer.
I was in business, I out in finance.
I went into it and then I wentinto selling tools and equipment
for, to, uh, skilled trades.
So I zigzagged around.
(12:38):
A lot of people had that too.
I feel, and it's funny, I was, I'm not,I'm not wearing my red shirt, but it
does say college is not for everybody.
It's not like, it's not everybody'spath, but I do think there's a
unique opportunity for somebodyto learn a trade and why, like
you're in your apprenticeship, youare actually earning and you're
learning, and you're making money.
(12:59):
And nothing stops someonefrom going from college.
What we find happens is after theyget their apprenticeship and they're
working, many of younger contractorsare going to school to learn
business, finance, marketing, andthey're using those business skills.
'cause once you startowning your own business.
You have to start learninghow to run a business.
And that's where, that's it'sa whole different skillset.
All animal that Yes.
(13:20):
And they, they utilize college, theyutilize organizations like PHCC to kind of
gain that training, financial management.
Um, and that's, that's the growth.
And what's also happening is a lot of the,there's a consolidation in the industry
where companies now are buying up othercompanies, but what's ing is you could
be a contractor working for a plumbingcompany that's got a thousand employees.
(13:43):
So you need to separate yourselfprofessionally to grow in that company.
So there's opportunities that, again,you're college is not out of the
picture, it's what you're using it for.
You know, you have a purpose and a missionas opposed to just, you know, whatever
you can finish, you know, English majoris not gonna do it for you, so, right.
Yeah.
You talked about the soft skills.
I just go back to that for aquick second because when you
(14:05):
said like, show up on time.
It's, you know, maybe yearsago that's like, you did that.
But today, like if you find, and, and I'ma business owner, so like I understand,
like you see that younger individual, andyears ago you just took it for granted.
But like now it's like, stay off yourphone, you know, show up on time,
you know, stay late, be curious.
(14:25):
And if you are a business owner, you lookat that individual and you say, wow, that
is a person that I can really mentor, thatcan really scale up in, uh, my business.
Well, here's the little secret that I, Ihave found over the last few years with
the plumbing contractors, the ones whohave built their successful businesses.
What they find is many of theirchildren don't want to get into.
(14:48):
Taking over their family business.
Some do, and we've got greatstories on that, but many don't.
Maybe just, you know, becausethey've built their business,
they've been successful.
Now the kids are living off the fruitof their success and they're doing what?
They go to college andthey're doing something.
Or doctor, a lawyer now.
So what they've done, many of them is whoamongst their employees could I eventually
(15:12):
give their, sell the business to?
And that's what's happening.
And then we've, you know, in Georgiahere, one of our former past presidents
has just sold his multi-million dollarbusiness to two current employees.
They're tanking it over.
And it's a commercial HVAC bill, uh, uh,technician company that's just amazing.
They've been all over Georgia.
(15:32):
They've done some of the, theduct work and the stuff in this
building, in the convention center.
It's amazing.
So there's opportunities thereagain, you know, that you can achieve
greater success being entrepreneurial.
Um, but it's a little bit, I find it's.
The, the learning side of things,you know, there's, is there's the
perception that the younger generationdoesn't wanna work or doesn't wanna
(15:53):
learn or doesn't wanna do this.
I think that they just learndifferently, different motivators.
Yes.
They're, they're, there's, it's different.
It's, it's always like ourgeneration is telling the younger
generation, they don't work like us.
Yes.
Right.
And they're saying, well, we don't wannawork like you, we want work life balance.
We, we, we do things differently.
They're coming up in a completegeneration, different generation.
(16:14):
It's funny, the PHEC EducationalFoundation has an academy and, and this
is what a a nice point I wanna bring out.
So when we did our apprenticeshipprogram, you know, old school
correspondence courses, they used tomaybe get a hundred people a year.
And then about six yearsago, they developed an online
program for apprenticeship,both for plumbing and hvac.
And about right now we have about.
(16:36):
16 to 17,000 registered users.
So about human being wise, it'sabout six to 7,000 participants.
We average about 2000,over 2000 apprentices go
through that program a year.
The average age of thatapprentice is 26 years old.
26. 26. Yeah.
So that's the, and it's all,it's all you say it's all online.
(16:57):
It's virtual.
It's online.
But based on what state you in,you still have to get your hands-on
training to get through their program.
Um, you work with a state chapter and you.
You do your hands-on learning whileworking, and then you do your online
program in conjunction with that PHCcontractor and they record the hours.
'cause you have to havethat certification.
(17:18):
And most people hear like,oh, it's 10,000 hours.
You're like, oh my gosh, I can't do that.
No, that's over three to four years.
You will work that no problem.
As long as you're working the job.
Um, so it, they find thata lot of people enjoy it.
It, it's, it's, and we've had analmost a 90% retention rate, but the
average age is 26 to 28 years old.
(17:38):
And when we find out, alot of 'em went to college.
Didn't wanna do it, bailed out.
Quit, didn't like it, it wasn'tfor them, didn't go to school.
Um, you know, some just kind ofmilled around and discovered working
at Starbucks is not a career.
Right.
Or McDonald's.
Yeah.
Yeah.
McDonald's, I mean, not nothingagainst them, you know, but still.
Um, and a little bitof like what we talked.
(17:59):
Michael Rowe was talking,I read his book about the 7
million Lost Generation of men.
Um, I'm glad he is here talkinga little bit about that.
'cause there's fact to that and I thinkthere's a, a generation of young men
also who if they found an opportunityin the trades, they would love it.
I think they would enjoy that comraderyand that would get them engaged.
(18:20):
There's, like I said, a lot ofcomradery, connection, uh, bonding,
brotherhood, Brotherhoodhood, word.
I love that.
Brotherhoodhood.
That's a brotherhood.
They would love it.
And PHCC, an organization's beenaround for years, over 140 years old.
That's kind of why it started.
And they still, when you talk to theold guard members, they still call it
like a brotherhood, a community of.
(18:42):
Of contractors that still keep in touch.
And, and that's something we've beena connection that, you know, a lot
of this lost generation now needs tounderstand that there's an opportunity
here for you to build a career.
And it's not what mom and dad wanted.
They wanted you to go to college, butyou're sitting in your basement playing
rob robots, you know, or something.
You know, you can change that.
(19:02):
And, and I think if they, we, I get alot of folks who are like that, they
milled around for a couple years.
They finally said, it'stime to get serious.
Now they're doing, henceaverage age 26 to 28.
Yeah.
So imagine those lost years thatthey've been wandering around for
almost, what, eight years now?
Yeah.
So, well, lucky they found outbefore they were, they did, you know.
Yes.
Late thirties or, or mm-hmm.
(19:23):
Or forties.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Um.
You know, it's, it's, it's, it'sinteresting how the, the environment
has changed overall and how socialmedia has really brought the attention
to even any trait, but plumbing itself.
And I think of like individuals,obviously we talked about Roger Wakefield.
Um, there was another, uh,young woman named Paige Knowles.
(19:45):
Yep.
On her page.
Yep.
On her page.
Uhhuh, I had her on my podcast.
She's usually here at Skills.
USA.
Yeah.
She's not here.
Um, and she talked about, it'sinteresting, she talked about.
Um, going into residential homes.
And when they answered thedoor, they're like, they see
this, you know, young woman.
They're like, wait, you'rehere to fix our plumbing?
(20:06):
Yeah.
And she goes and she fixes the plumbing.
And like these, some of these like, uh,husbands are like, I, I don't understand.
I can't fix this stuff, but you can.
And I love that stuff.
I love those stories.
There's so many wonderfulstories of that, of, you know,
young women who are getting it.
I, you know, wonder forPHEC, the foundation.
We've been talking more, telling ourstory, you know, on social media as well.
(20:27):
And I, I've had to talk, talkto Roger Wakefield and, and
Plum Page and other influencers.
Talk more about it becausethere's such great stories.
You know, we just profiled, uh.
A 27-year-old female plumber outof Indiana, you know, and she is
growing and successful in a business.
She's now like, the business is booming.
We had another gentleman outta NewJersey, he went to Fordham University.
(20:50):
You know, he's a PhD, HC contractor.
Um, hated.
Finance went to Wall Street, hated it.
Just it was awful.
Like I'm not doing this.
Goes back to his father who hasa plumbing company and says,
dad, I wanna work with you.
I wanna be a plumber.
Dad probably thought, why did I just payfor Fordham University for you to do this?
Nope.
Gets in there now, five, six yearslater, he is bought the data out and
(21:11):
it's a multimillion dollar business.
Um, brought, I've got in Georgia here,they'll be here to, I think tomorrow.
I wanna see if they're gonnastop by, um, two identical twins
going to be plumbing contractors.
They went to University of Georgia.
They were like, this is not for us.
We wanna get into plumbing.
And they're, they're goingthrough a course right now,
an apprenticeship program.
I can't tell the difference theyhave to wear different shirts.
(21:32):
But these are the stories.
These are young professionalswith a great bright futures.
And you know, there's, the onething about plumbing is it's
a recession proof job as well.
And that's the fear of theeconomy going right now.
Look, it doesn't matter is you still gottaget stuff fixed, um, and you're gonna
still do the things you do, whether it's,it's either on the plumbing side or hvac.
(21:53):
And HVAC will break.
That's as simple as that.
It happens especially withthe heat here in Georgia.
Good lord.
Um, but that's the thing.
And same with plumbing.
You need your water.
You need pipes burst in thewinter so that never ends.
Doesn't matter if it's a greateconomy or a recession, it
is recession proof position.
During COVID, it was an essential service.
(22:14):
Contractors never stopped working.
They just always kept going,and they grew their businesses
even more and more successful.
Um, and the entrepreneurial,entrepreneurial ones that knew how
to build customer base relationshipsgrew even more significantly.
Um, and some of them know how tothrive and they're very personable
and they're great conversations.
One of our board members on ourfoundation, you know, he, eight
(22:38):
years ago, we started a businessof small plumbing shop in Arkansas.
First year he made like a couple hundredthousand, eight years later, he's about
$5 million in Little Rock, Arkansas.
If that's a king's ransom.
Yeah.
$5 million.
Yeah.
So I mean, these are,and, and they're good.
Honest people who want to share that,none of them sit there and say, I
(22:58):
don't wanna see these kids come in.
Or they, they encourage it.
They're like, I wanna see, they go tothe school, they actually volunteer
their time at schools to train.
I love that folks.
And, uh, they go to the schools'cause they, they get frustrated
on the perception issue ofwhy these kids don't get in.
And then what they find is, and itgoes back to what Michael Rose said.
They, that brotherhood, that, thatmentoring and that growth, that
(23:22):
relationship, that connection,those young people, once they
connect, they, they succeed.
I would say that the success rateis usually very high, probably in
the high eighties and nineties.
They'll stay and put through, um,you know, and that's, that's the key.
The ones who don't fail that don'tmake it through, unfortunately, I
always see, is that they may have justhad the bad experience or too many
(23:43):
people telling them they can't do it.
And that's the sad part, and that's thediscouragement of your school counselors.
Maybe it's parents, it's friends.
You need to get around peoplewho are in a positive mindset.
Yeah.
I just wanna throw out one other name.
Juline Cassidy, um, who actually I had onthe podcast and she runs Tools in Tiaras.
Yes.
And she was recently on, I guess MikeRowe did a show and she was on, and she
(24:03):
got money and it was really cool to see.
But you know, she's doing great thingsout there for the industry and it's, it's
wonderful to see how they're giving back.
To, to, to the industry.
And it's funny, I was listening toanother podcast and, um, you were talking
about AI for, for a quick second there,and it's called The Diary of the CEO.
(24:24):
Um, and they had this, uh, ai, uh.
Individual on it.
He's like the godfather of ai andthe first thing big, uh, hosts ask
him like, AI is gonna take over.
What, what do we, what dowe do has become a plumber?
That's the first thing he said.
I'm like, yes, that's true.
Yes, it's true.
We actually had a, a, our campaignfor last year was this saying
(24:47):
that AI can't replace a plumber.
And it was a poster of like thisterminator looking, trying to
look at a wrench, like, whatam I supposed to do with this?
Even the AI couldn't figure it out.
Um, it, the, the interesting thing is AIis growing more and more as a resource for
the contractor to help them be a bettercontractor, better trained contractor.
And it's the same with the apprenticeship.
(25:09):
We're utilizing AI and projectmanagement to help them and.
We're, ironically, AI is becomingmore of a partner in the plumbing
industry than anything else.
Less so, it's not replacing jobs,it's enhancing that contractor's
ability to do their job.
And that's something we teach and wehave programs on that now, and it's
great and we're seeing the difference.
(25:31):
And maybe some of it's just a call center.
You know, we, you know, our, ourpresident was just talking this
morning about, he uses a, an AIcall center and it's called Emily.
So Emily will talk to you, schedule yourappointment and do all these things.
Here's the thing, that plumbing,plumbing contractor, he's still there.
He's working, he's out getting in histruck and he is getting everything ready
(25:51):
so that contractor's an in great living.
You know what we don't need?
I don't need somebody sitting on aphone, you know, somebody fresh outta
college who, that's the low entry job.
So there in itself, the co thosecollege jobs that are not there, um,
even a low entry are being replaced.
So, and that's something it's.
Profoundly educationally,we have to change.
(26:12):
Um, we were talking, I guess a few weeksago, the president put out a whole, uh,
executive order about encouraging folksto get into the trades more, and, and
plumbing and HVAC was part of that becausethe reality is the economy is changing.
You can't have a housing boom.
Without more plumbing contractorsand more, you know, educated, you
know, technicians getting in there.
(26:33):
You can't, you can't grow cities.
You just, there won't be available.
Um, there's, there'sno way to replace that.
So you can't have another housingboom and economic growth without that.
The plumbing and HVACindustry is part of that.
Um, and the problem is, if we don'tstart replacing the ones that are
retiring and selling, we're gonna be.
In a difficult spot.
(26:54):
It's gonna take longer to build, it'sgonna take longer to, to grow more,
you know, more angry homeowners.
Well, it's interesting you say homeowners,because even people in my neighborhood
who can't even turn a wrench, letalone put a light bulb in, you know,
I always say like, you're gonna waitthree or four weeks for a plumber and
you wanna pay one to $200 an hour.
And I, I remember my, uh, mypipe froze for my, uh, sink and
(27:18):
my wife was like, go fix that.
I'm like.
Okay, I, I'll try to fix it.
And I blasted a bunch of heat.
It didn't work.
And then I called a local plumber and heis like, look, my rate is, you know, yeah,
a couple hundred dollars, you could doit yourself, but it's gonna cost, like,
and then I ended up throwing it out and Ifelt like a, you know, fulfillment there.
But there is a, there's a uniqueopportunity and he said about,
(27:39):
you know, becoming a journeyman orbecoming a master in your trade.
You know, the leap to entrepreneurship.
Um, what type of, do you offer anytype of support for someone making that
leap from technician to business owner?
Because it's a whole different skillset.
Is it anything that the association does?
We actually do.
We have a number of courses.
One of 'em was examples, a businessessential leadership program.
(28:02):
It's for that contractorseventually looking to leave or
maybe take over the family businessor the business they're in.
Um, do they want to grow and become anentrepreneur and own their own building?
Uh, our, our company, and one ofthe things we have is a number of
different programs that encourage that.
Ironically, the number one issue thatthese young business owners have is.
(28:25):
Finance business, like accounting,they, that's the stuff they get caught
up on and that can make or break theirbusiness if they do not know how to
handle the money that comes in and out.
Um, so we offer courses,we offer coaching.
To help them.
They will come in and share whata p and l statement is and how to
(28:46):
set up your invoicing, how to trackyour invoicing and your supply.
That's the the number one issue.
Young entrepreneur, uh, businessplumbing contractors, owners
struggle on and, and beyond.
PHCC.
There's other groups andprivate, uh, you know, firms that
actually will help with coaching.
And in that coaching, the keyis to coach 'em to success.
(29:06):
And so that becomes the biggest obstacle.
The second part isunderstanding what sales is.
You know, and training your team andunderstanding sales to be professional
and you know, you just can't walk in.
Again, the perception, you know, theplumber crack, that is something we
actually coach and say, do not showup at somebody's house like that.
(29:27):
Sure you can't do it.
You have to come in, you'reprofessional, your uniform is clean.
You know if you need the wash up, youhave to It's first impression, right?
First impression.
First impression is everything insales for that young contractor.
If you wanna build thatrelationship with that cons,
that customer for years to come.
That'll be it.
And we have some of, some of the stories.
That's amazing.
(29:47):
I mean, some of the plumbingcontractors we have, their family
business has been around for ahundred years, a hundred years,
three, four generations of plumbing.
And they taught that early on to theirkids that you have to be professional.
You know, you're not walking in thereand that, you know, you're just not
walking out without anything you want.
You have to be organized.
Your communication, how you'representing, you're selling.
Other, newer, you're, you're tryingto help this person upgrade their
(30:10):
equipment, and most importantly,you're here to build a relationship.
And that's the other part of that,that social dynamic, that younger
generation is still learning.
You know, it's, you know, we're soused to being on the phones and you
know, they're on TikTok and videos and.
They're not socializing.
And that's another thing that we tryto encourage in our association is
get to know some of the contractors,get some mentorship, understand
(30:33):
who you're doing and within yourown company, they encourage it.
It, it's the growing thatrelationship, that connection.
So when you go and meet.
You know, you know Joe Smithat his house to fix something.
You're hoping that your company buildthat 20 to 30 year relationship.
And, and that's, that's the key and that'sthe changeover from being that apprentice
to a new contractor to eventuallysaying, I wanna start my own business.
(30:57):
And you have to learn that over time.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
You know, there are, there arecompanies out there that have
their own apprenticeship, right.
And they're, it's a biginvestment to do that because.
Some will say, well, I bring thisperson in, they train and they leave,
and now I put all this investment.
But overall, the percentage actuallyis higher in a sense that they make
(31:17):
the investment into that individual.
But it's a unique opportunity.
But also there's, there's also a lot ofpushback too that some of these kids are
trying to get into an apprenticeship, but.
The companies are asking for three tofive years of experience, and I, I, I, I
can't get in and I, I, I send resumes in.
What would you tell those individuals?
You know, it's interesting.
I've heard that here and thereand, you know, and I always love to
(31:39):
talk to those kids more and kind ofunderstand how are you going about it?
You know, most contractors,it's not a resume.
It's, you know, you either go throughyour school program, um, which is
a different curriculum than PHCC.
Most of the PHC Academy apprenticesare going through the program.
In a sense, 'cause they're older.
You know, a contractor that's looking toinvest money is not looking at your resume
(32:02):
and say you have five years experience.
Um, you know, they want to see thekeys, professionalism, you know,
how do you present yourself, yourability to learn and your ability
to be on time and be professional?
That's the interview process for them.
That's how they judge.
They don't look at a resume and say,well, this person's got some experience
working at Starbucks for five years.
(32:24):
You know, that's okay.
We don't have a problem.
You can bring you in and youknow, do the interview and put
you through because they're gonnainvest the money in and train you.
If you're doing it throughour PHC Academy, through the
apprenticeship program, you know,they work with you, they mold you
into the contract that they want.
A lot of the schools right nowwill use a different curriculum,
uh, called the N-C-C-E-R.
(32:45):
Another way they learn in school,they'll go through a technical school,
technical program, and as they graduate,they will then the schools will link
them up with contractors at that point.
Um, you know, it just dependson the region, but it's.
Very rarely you're gonna get someonethat's turned away for a specific reason.
It's, I would hope not.
It's not, I would hope not.
(33:06):
It's not the case at all.
I mean, they, you know,they're actively encouraging.
They need apprentices and, but whatthey don't want is, is someone that
is not gonna take it, take it serious.
You know, and I, you know, I, inyears of working and where I'm at,
I get, and when I open a positionfor something, I get 10,000 resumes.
Some of 'em are like, did youeven read the job posting?
(33:27):
Right.
It's not like that in the, in thisindustry, you know, if you choose to move
around to different, and, and there'sopportunities at different levels.
There's large scale plumbingcommercial companies.
Yes.
Then that's, but you haveexperience already as a plumber.
You've, you've worked in a companyof that size if you wanted to be a
building maintenance person again.
More success in that opportunitiesas well on the plumbing side.
(33:50):
So I don't see a lotof obstacles to get in.
It's, it's whether you have thewill to get into it and the desire
to get through that, that part.
But most times it's very littleturned away that I'm aware of.
If you know for the individualsthat again, are interested in
plumbing, commercial, residential,union, open shop, what.
(34:13):
There's a lot of information out there.
What do you, what would you recommendsomebody do or look at what's hot today?
It, it's, all of it is, you know, with,you know, there's differences in every
aspect of what you just mentioned.
Um, PHEC has an organizationwithin the organization.
We have union, we have open shop, we have,you know, commercial, we have residential.
It's just depends on what your preferenceis and where do you want to go and
(34:36):
what type of work do you want to do.
Um, you know, looking at a commercial.
Uh, plumbing contractors very differentthan a residential, you know, and you'll
stunningly you'll see about the, the sizeof the type of projects they're doing.
Yeah.
Some of that will require more advancededucation over time, potentially
a college degree and a plumbingcontracting license is also incredible.
(35:00):
But that's, that's a career builder.
You know, if you have thatexperience and you go through
college and say you're an engineer.
Uh, you're crazy not to go and geta plumbing license with that because
you're more marketable in that position.
Now you're looking at constructioncompanies that say, I want this guy,
he's an engineer and he knows plumbing.
So now he's gonna know when I buildthis, you know, 20 story building,
(35:21):
he's gonna know what I need.
Uh, and that's on the mixed usedevelopment or the large scale property,
uh, commercial development sites.
So you want somebody with that background.
So a contractor who does that and getsthat license and an engineering degree.
Your marketability is huge and the sky'sthe limit for you in terms of salaries.
If you wanna get into residentialplumbing, again, same thing,
(35:42):
successful in June, but it'sa different type of training.
It's more the hands-onunderstanding what that is.
But again, success is thereif you're willing to, to put
the work and the hours in.
If somebody was wanting to know where theycan make the most money, open shop, union.
I mean, obviously you own yourown business, but it's, you know.
It's, it's a gamble as well,uh, winning your own business.
(36:03):
Absolutely.
Well, the union's different in the sensethat their training, they're, they're,
they have requirements that, you know,they're, they're looking at someone
they wanna keep for 20 to 25 years.
So, I mean, I, I joke and say maybeit's a little bit like the Army.
You're signing a contract for a numberof years that you're gonna participate
and go through that training.
You know, then they require like fiveyears of apprenticeship training.
You get paid and you getbenefits and things like that.
(36:25):
But their requirements aredifferent because they look at,
if they approve you and you haveto go through an approval process.
You're looking at being part ofthem for 20 to 25, maybe 30 years,
and you know, your pension andeverything is built into that.
My brother's an electric elecelectrical, uh, electrician, I'm
sorry, in, in St. Louis, local one.
(36:45):
And he's been with his local union.
Uh.
Um, IBEW for almost 25 years.
Foreman, he was lost, came outta theMarine Corps, didn't know what to do.
Loves it, has so much fun.
Enjoys it.
He's got the comradery, hasdrinks with his, his things.
Now he's a foreman.
You know, he's in St. Louis.
Probably makes close to $200,000 a year.
He loved it.
But it is a lifetime flyingcommitment to be part in a union.
(37:08):
That's how they see it.
Um, in an open shop, that's your choice.
What you do, you wanna work for acouple years for a contractor and
go out and do your own business.
You wanna bounce around.
You wanna move around.
You can do that.
And that's one of the things Ialways find interesting is like, you
know, we've, I've known some of thecontractors I talked to, they grew up in
Tennessee, they got their license there.
If they wanna move the veil,Colorado, this is one gentleman
(37:31):
and he says, yeah, I love skiing.
Well I'm gonna move over to Colorado.
Found out their requirements,got the training, got it done.
He does plumbing on the side,but he's also an avid skier.
Oh, okay.
So he has a life in sense beyond,uh, you know, beyond what he's doing.
And he wanted to do that.
But you have a marketable skill nowthat you can move around and take
around the country if you can fulfillthe requirements of that state.
(37:53):
And, and that's one of the things that,again, it's wonderful to have, yeah.
I mean, the union, sometimesit's hard to get into.
Yes, yes.
Right.
There's limited amountof seats and yes, yes.
Some kids get discouraged.
Well, I can get in the firsttime or the second time I have,
uh, a cousin who wants to be anelectrician and he's a career changer.
I'll get into that quick second, buthe's about 36 years old, has two kids.
(38:14):
Decided after 15 years of working forTrader Joe's, I wanna be an electrician.
And now it's starting all over again.
Are you seeing career changers?
You know, you said 26, 28,but like 30 plus, 40 plus.
That's the medium.
So yes, we have a number of contractorswho, you know, they're career changers
and you know, maybe we've had folks.
Computer science.
(38:34):
I see a lot of the folks coming out ofthat industry that says, this is crazy.
I got laid off.
Uh, you know, a gentleman I spoke to, youknow, laid off from working at Google.
He went, got his degree, hated it,decided I'm gonna get into, become, get
my plumbing contracting license, goes intoa program that we have and turns around
and he is very incredibly successful,now, invests in real estate in Northern
(38:56):
Virginia and he, 10 years later he ismaking, you know, a lot of money both
on the plumbing and the real estateside 'cause he fixes his buildings up.
Um, but so there's again,an opportunity, so.
You know, with the market constantlychanging, we we're seeing a, an uptick,
especially in, you know, a lot of withthe wholesale government layoffs and
that that changed around there as well.
And we're seeing folks inquiringabout getting into the plumbing
(39:20):
contract 'cause it's a secure career.
If you have a collegedegree, that's wonderful.
It adds to your marketability.
Dependability in their, in thecontractor's mind that wants to hire you.
There's a chance that then youcan grow into more of a business
type position for that contractor.
And once you become the contractor,you've worked in the field, then you
start getting a whole of a team, thenyou get promoted and you're handling
(39:41):
five or six people now, or maybe more.
You grow within that company, especiallythe large scale, uh, plumbing companies.
And you know, and especially whereI'm at in Northern Virginia, some
of them have eight, 900 employees.
And that's a lot.
That is a lot.
You know, and they're doing alot, especially on the HVAC side.
Most of those are large scale companies.
And the other thing we're seeing, whichis interesting, you'll get a kick outta
(40:02):
this, is that, so what's happening,there's a consolidation of growth as
well, where now you're seeing plumbingcompanies that do hvac, they're adding
electrical and they're adding roofing.
That's the part where now you're seeinga corporate kind of structure taking
hold, but they haven't lost sight thatthey're still a plumbing contractor.
So they still train theirpeople in the same way.
(40:24):
And the model is very similar, whetherit's to any of those four business units.
Yeah.
And they love to see that growth.
And like I said, I've seen.
Millionaires be made overnight, you know,on certain aspects of being in the trades.
Yeah.
You know, I think we touched upon it,but, uh, you know, these companies
being sold to private equity, andthis was covered in the Wall Street
Journal, that, you know, these, um,people who are, let's say 65, 70 looking
(40:48):
to retire, are making good money.
You know, selling to private equity.
I don't know what's gonna happen yearsfrom now with private equity, how it's
gonna consolidate the whole industry.
I'm not sure, but.
They're, they're, they got theseand they're not, look, not exciting
businesses, but, you know, they, they,they give off a good amount of money,
but now they're, they can retireand, you know, sail into the sunset.
(41:11):
And some do that.
And we've had a, and PHCC has a number of,of our contractors that have done that.
And, you know, I saw a list somewhere.
What are the, you know,top businesses to get into?
What are the top fields if you weregonna invest in a business, um, plumbing
was either number one or number two.
HVAC was number like in the top fivebecause you can start those companies,
(41:32):
get your license, become a contractor,and with that consolidation, if you've
had your business and successful and youhave a market, depending on where you're
at, and if a private equity or anothercompany wants to buy you, they're offering
significant dollars for your business.
And I've seen a couple of themsell their businesses for millions.
And say, I'm gonna retire now.
(41:53):
Maybe I'm in my fifties, or guess what,I'm gonna start some other business.
Or I'm gonna get into theeducation and training side.
And, uh, I here at Skills we have a coupleof our, our, our contractors are working
now with students at the competition.
Some of them have done that.
They sold their business for a significantamount of money and they're here now
volunteering their time to help thenext generation of plumbing contractors.
(42:17):
And when you hear their story and you say,how much did you sell your business for?
So you know they've got that, thatboat somewhere in West Palm Beach.
And then they come hereand they wanna volunteer.
Give back.
They're just giving back great stories.
They're giving back becausealmost every contractor I've ever
spoken to is that's near sellingor near end their, their career.
They all say the same thing that I loved.
(42:37):
I wanna give back 'causeit's been so good to me.
And most of the times they find thatthey're, if they're selling their
business to private equity, the numberis so significant, or in all honestly.
They don't have anyone else totake the business over and they
don't see, you know, they don'twanna do, what are they gonna do?
They can't keep doingit until they're dead.
So, and you can't take the money with you.
So they wanna enjoy the time that they'veput their hours and their time in.
(42:59):
They wanna enjoy the, the,the fruits of their labor.
Yeah.
At least they have the opportunity.
Somebody stopped by and I forget, he'sdoing a podcast here and I'm, now, I'm
blanking on his name, but he said hehad a 13, $14 million plumbing company
and he sold it and now he's doingpodcasting and that type of stuff.
Yeah.
But he's giving back.
And it's, it's just that fulfillmentaspect about paying it forward.
Yeah.
(43:19):
Well, it's interesting if, if you dohave an upcoming side, one of our, our
contractors who just sold his business toa private equity firm and you know, he's
wrapping it up and he's here volunteering.
He's been volunteeringfor a number of years.
So one of the things he's gonnabe helping us do is trade.
Train the, the world skillscompetition competitor for plumbing.
So PHCC about a few years ago, we'vealways had a plumbing competitor
(43:41):
in our world skills competition.
But he would play second, maybelast, you know, and I mean, we
were losing the countries thatdidn't even have working plumbing.
Wow.
I'm like, how does that evenpossible, that impossible.
Yeah.
And so we said last year was thefirst type kid that we brought in.
To say, okay, who's your world skills?
You know, who's our skills?
USA champ, let's get him trained.
And he, this the kid we had last year,a great kid out of Fargo, North Dakota.
(44:06):
I mean, he was a handsome fellow.
Um.
He went, we trained him for about a yearand you know, he did an amazing job.
He still plays 20th out of 40competitors and we put the training
into him, but now he's like thelocal celebrity of Fargo as this kid.
He never went anywhereoutside the US in his life.
(44:29):
Um, he spent a month in France and Italy.
His family came, he said it was themost amazing experience he's had.
We had him travel around thecountry, the different PHC events
and different opportunities.
He got the meet, came toWashington to meet his senator.
Loved it.
Just a great kid.
And so now we're getting readyto select the next gentleman,
(44:49):
uh, in the next few weeks here.
And same thing, he's gonnaget to go to Shanghai, China.
Oh, that's awesome.
In next year.
And, but what we're trying to say is lookat the opportunities that he would've
never had that he knock on into plumbing.
That's the thing.
He could have done something else.
And he originally, last year, BradyK Crawl said, you know, I, I'd
(45:11):
probably be working at a Walmartor a Starbucks or something.
I got into plumbing and I loved it.
And now he came here,the skills, the dream.
He, he came, I think he,I came in second place.
We picked him as the candidate 'causehe, the only one who's available at
the time, um, put the time and effortin and had the trip of his life.
Now he goes back and he tells thestory to all the kids at, you know,
(45:32):
the plumbing schools and stuffaround the North Fargo, North Dakota.
These are the, theseare the success stories.
Yeah.
That I love to hear about that.
It is possible to do very well.
Working with your hands.
And is there anything else that wedidn't cover that you would like to say
about, uh, plumbing or your organization?
Oh yeah.
So, so just so folks know, PHCC,the Plumbing Heating Cooling Council
(45:52):
Association, we've been aroundfor a long time, about 140 years.
And, but it's always been an organizationfolk dedicated to the plumbing and HVAC
industry and training and, and growing.
The offshoot of that is ourfoundation and our academy.
Our foundation was sponsored 40 years ago.
Um, raised about a million dollarsin the eighties, 1980s to funds
(46:14):
scholarship for education and training.
And a, a nice story of that is,uh, our chairman at the time went
to go play golf with Herb Kohler.
Right head of Kohler,you know, the company.
And they asked him, Hey, we'retrying to start a foundation.
You know, we wantmanufacturers support us.
Would you support us?
And he said, on the golf course,well, how much can I give?
(46:35):
He goes.
Gonna give us a million dollars.
And Herb Kohler said, sure.
So he comes back and he goesto the board and he goes,
maybe I should asked for more.
Yeah.
But that has now built to a legacy ofalmost, you know, now where we have
given out thousands of scholarshipsover the last 20 years or so.
And I mean, you know, we, we give outabout $150,000 in scholarships a year.
(46:58):
And in our academy, our apprenticeshipprogram has grown to, like I said, over
well over 2000, uh, apprentices a yearthat are taking our online program.
And it that in itself, we've got,like I said, about 15 to 16,000
registered users that are going throughthis program, taking these courses.
Um.
(47:18):
I always like to say PHC is oneof the leaders and we, we get
beyond the theoretical, like whatit, you know, get into the trade.
No, we actually help you get into thetrades and that's one of the things
I love about this, this program.
I love working for this group.
They're a great group of people.
You couldn't ask for better folksto work with and you know, it's an
honor and a pleasure to work with PHC.
The foundation and what we do, it'ssomething I get to enjoy doing every day.
(47:41):
And, uh, I love telling the story ofgetting into the trades and the plumbing.
It's just so much so wonderful.
You know, it's, and Iappreciate what you're doing.
Yeah.
And the talking more, you know, preachingabout this because more parents need
to hear this, more school counselorsneed to hear it as well, uh, that
they're missing out on getting somegood kids into some successful careers.
And I'm hoping that we can continuethat message in the future.
(48:03):
Yeah, that's what it's all about.
It's just need a big, bigger microphone.
Yes.
Yes.
Uh, if people wanna find out more aboutyour organization, where do they go?
Social media or your website?
Sure.
Uh, uh, PHEZ is a, you know,PhD, hc uh, dot org and, and how
opportunity to go to education.
You can look up educational foundation,but if you just enter in pcc uh, dot
org, you'll find that informationmore about the association, and
(48:26):
then you can connect over to thefoundation and the academy as well.
Definitely check that out.
Um, it's been a blast havingyou thank you on the podcast.
Thank you for all of the informationand that's super helpful to people
who are just coming in to the industryand super excited to hear what's
gonna happen at Skills USA in your,uh, neck of the woods over there.
(48:46):
Absolutely.
I gonna stop by there,so definitely stop by.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Alright.
Thanks for listening to TheLost Art of the Skilled Trades.
Visit us@andrewbrown.netfor more resources and tips.
Join us next time for real stories andmeaningful initiatives as we celebrate
(49:07):
our men and women in the skilledtrades and shape the future together.
Plumbing trade is essential.
It, it is part of, you know, the everyfabric of construction and building
process, everything, it's there, butwhat they're missing is, okay, I'm an
apprentice for a few years, making 16,and that $16 is not the case at all.
It's much higher to getan apprenticeship at six.
You're gonna get more like 30 to$40 depending on where you're at
(00:20):
after you've finished that program.
After two to three years,depending on the state you live in.
You make money quickly.
You're making a lot of money.
I mean, well over six figures.
Hi, I'm Andrew Brown.
You're listening to the Lost Star ofthe Skilled Trades Podcast, a show that
shines the spotlight on careers in theskilled trades that are high paying,
(00:44):
honorable, rewarding, and fulfilling.
The trades are the backbone of theeconomy that keep us running, and without
them, our world would cease to exist.
All right, so we're down at Skills USA.
I'm super excited because plumbing.
(01:06):
Has come up so many differenttimes about the shortages.
And I want to get in this, into this.
I brought in an expert, his name isDan Quinonez, if I got that right.
Uh, plumbing, heating Cooling, um,contractors National Association.
You're the Chief Operating Officer.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you so much.
It's a pleasure to be here.
(01:27):
Yeah, likewise.
I wanna throw out this statistic toyou and I want to hear your thoughts.
It said that we need over 550,000 plumbersby 2027, and when you look at those
shortages, you start to say, wow, there'sopportunities in the plumbing world.
What are you seeing from a shortagestandpoint in the plumbing trade?
(01:50):
The plumbing trade is an amazingopportunity, both whether it's
in plumbing, on HVAC techniciantraining, the opportunities there are.
Limitless in the possibilitiesboth for career, financial
success and personal success.
Um, when you mention that numberI've seen over the last few
years, it's a perception issue.
It's that the trades versus the collegeexperience and what I've seen over
(02:15):
the years is that that perceptionissue, is that still looking at the
plumbing contractors that, you know,the low-rise pants bending over the,
those funny stories, plumbers crack.
Yes.
The plumbers crack.
Um.
That was the past.
The times have changed the plumbing careeras a, in that industry has such tremendous
(02:36):
opportunities for personal success and,and, and I've watched entrepreneurs
who have grown these businesses intomultimillion dollar successful businesses.
What I've found over the last fewyears is those contractors are giving
back now to PHCC, our educationalfoundation through scholarship
and apprenticeship and training.
And if more young, the younger generationwould truly enjoy being part of it.
(03:01):
'cause the one area that I foundmost exciting about it is there's a,
it's a community, it's a comradery.
There is friendship.
There's these contractors, whetherthey compete against each other.
They work together, they talkto each other, they grow.
There's, even in their companies,there's a, a bonding that I think that
is rare do you see in the corporateworld and going through college.
(03:23):
Great experience if you wanna doit, if it's the career, your choice.
But if you're unsure, you'regreat with your hands.
You have to be great with math.
Um, if you're an environmentalist,there's an opportunity to
start to grow in that area.
Uh, plumbers were the firstenvironmentalists, clean water, uh,
safe, you know, places to wash yourhands and cook your food and eat.
(03:45):
Most people don't realize howessential a plumber is to that world.
They would say that plumberssave more lives than doctors.
It's been, it, it's interesting for, forclean water and, and, um, you know, our
drinking water, we take it for granted.
But you go to the sink and you drink.
It's not like that ina lot of other places.
No.
You can't just do that.
No, absolutely not.
Uh, if you think of some of the illnesses,Legionnaire's disease, this is constantly
(04:08):
on the mind of that plumber and, and,and the contractors that build out.
It's beyond just the toilet and the sink.
There's a whole system that goesinto, whether it's a residential home,
whether it's a large scale commercialproperty, and you've seen, I mean,
if you go past the stadium or a mall.
I mean, the size and scope of theamount of plumbing that, and it goes
(04:28):
into these buildings is amazing.
And you've seen it in like stories oncruise ships or a casino where, you
know, there's been illness, foodborneillnesses, you know, 'cause they
didn't have clean water or the system.
And if you look at internationally,that's, that's a problem.
You know, and those are the thingsthat spread those illnesses that
we've seen in this, you know, overthe last 20 or so, last five years
(04:48):
with COVID, how, how essential aplumbing sy, you know, contractor was
to kind of provide that information.
We talked about the misconceptions, right?
We talked about, you know, plumbers,crack and that, that type of stuff.
I, I, I do think social media hasreally shown us, you know, especially,
we were talking about Roger Wakefield,who's a well-known plumber, and he
is got a really large, uh, plumbingchannel on YouTube and he's doing great
(05:10):
things teaching the younger generation.
But I, I do think there is pushback andI, and I'm, I'm, I'm taking it from.
Engagement online.
So let's say, uh, TikTok, right?
There's a lot of activity there,especially I have a large following
there, and the comments are, you know,I don't wanna work with my hands.
(05:31):
I only make $16 an hour in anapprenticeship as an apprentice.
ICI can't, I can't pay my bills.
How do I do that?
What do you say to those peoplewho are like, it's not worth it
because I'm not gonna make the money.
It's funny that people say that I,you know, understanding the college
experience and I've had a chance totalk to like high school counselors
and stuff, there was always this wayof saying, well, you're a straight A
(05:52):
student, you should go into college.
And so I think some of that, and it'ssomewhat controversial to say that I
do think high schools and or counselorsare pushing so they can say, you know,
80% of our kids have gone to college.
But when you look at the number afterthose kids leave, how many of those
kids actually finished a degree Exactly.
And go into the, the, the career.
(06:13):
They actually, you know, I'm apolitical science major and I work in
a plumbing contractors association.
Um, it, it makes no sense.
You know, most of the kids I knowthey that go through college sometimes
never even end up in the career choice.
They end, they're working somewhere else.
And then that's the shocking part isthat now you've come out with a hundred
thousand dollars in student debt.
You know, you may have partied a lotin college of course, because let's
(06:35):
face it, I mean, especially on TikTok,you look at University of Alabama, who
doesn't want to go there and have agood time, it's a great school for that.
A lot of colleges are great party schools,but at the end of the day, you're not
prepared to get out into the workforce.
Even on the corporate side, theystruggle with the kids coming out.
And now with introduction of AI, withthe ability to replace, you know,
(06:55):
low level staffers, um, that's scary.
Whereas.
Plumbing trade is essential.
It, it is part of, you know, the everyfabric of construction and building
process, everything, it's there, butwhat they're missing is, okay, I'm an
apprentice for a few years, making 16,and that $16 is not the case at all.
It's much higher to getan apprenticeship at six.
(07:18):
You're gonna get more like 30 to$40 depending on where you're at
after you've finished that program.
After two to three years,depending on the state you live in.
You make money quickly and you know, ifyou start, say you get into a program
at 18, 19 years old, by the time you'redone at 21, you know you're coming
in, you're a journeyman, you get yourlicense, you're done, you're working,
you're out in the field, you're gonnawork, you're making a lot of money.
(07:40):
I mean, well over six figures ina lot of regions of the country.
A UA contractor that's beenin maybe about 10 years.
I saw the quote in New YorkCity was 160,000 a year.
Boston was like, same thing, 160,000.
Um, but even places like Alabama, Georgia,Mississippi, you're still making a lot of
money because you're in such high demand.
(08:01):
Yeah.
And, and I know certain, uh, locationslike New York or California, you're
gonna make just the higher cost of, ofliving, but there's, there's that argument
out there from the younger generation.
It's not everybody, you know, Idon't feel it here at Skills USA when
you have all these kids who are solike, dialed in, they're intense.
Yeah.
They're, they're intense.
And, and I know a lot of themare probably gonna do very well.
(08:23):
Um, but there are a lot of people whoare, you know, saying like, ah, this is
not the right path for me if, if I am16, 17 years old, because this is really
what I want the audience to listen to.
'cause a lot of the youngergeneration listening to what can
I start doing at that age to besuccessful in the plumbing chain?
(08:43):
Where do I go first?
Because.
I feel like you don't get that in school.
You're sitting down withthe guidance counselor.
They're saying, what collegedo you want to go to?
If your family's saying goto college, where do you go?
Like, what's the steps?
Well, and it's an honest discussionyou have to have with your family,
your parents, and you know, yourschool counselor and just say, I
don't know if college is for me,but I love working with my hands.
(09:03):
I love, you know, I love building, um,getting into STEM or STEAM programs and
understanding, you know, where those.
What you find an interest in, um, ifyou have an a, a, a, a care for the
environment and you know, things likethat, which you find that's happening.
More and more folk kids are gettinginto the plumbing trades because
they do care about those things.
(09:24):
And, you know, looking at that andstart talking to your counselor, PhD, HC
the Educational Foundation has a, a, aprogram, a workforce readiness program.
You can go on that line, our websitethat's free, where you can kind of get
an understanding of what it's like to be.
In the plumbing contracting world,the dark, you know, the dark, dirty,
you know, getting under the, the, someof the areas, getting into the, like,
(09:46):
the basements and understanding, soyou get a sense, you still like it.
Then they, we encourage you togo take our pre-apprenticeship
course, which is a $29 course.
But it's a course that you can takeand it gets more into the nitty
gritty of being a plumbing contractorand really help you understand
what you're getting yourself into.
You know, you have to be comfortablegetting into a crawl space.
You have to understand, like, listen,a, a basement may be flooded with
(10:08):
something, you know, excrements.
You gotta be comfortable with that.
Um, so they get understanding, take it.
And then if they pass, theytake a, a quiz at the end, they
get the certification in it.
They can take that to a plumbingcontractor, say, I'm serious
about getting into this industry.
That contractor knowing they'll seethe PHEC brand on that will immediately
say, okay, you've taken the stepsthat you want to get into this.
(10:32):
We're gonna put you into this program.
And it may be a program with alocal com, like a brick and mortar
school that will put you through oran online apprenticeship program.
And most states, relatively,it's two to three years.
So you start at a younger age, youstart to build into your career faster,
and you start earning those hoursand you get that hands-on training.
(10:53):
You do the online program.
So before you know it, you know,and you know the whole $16 an hour.
Trust me, I don't, Imean, it's much higher.
I'm glad to hear that.
Yeah, they really, they workvery hard, but not only.
You're working hard, but they'll payyou if they see a good employee that
shows up on time, that's willing toput the hours in, is professional,
(11:13):
you know, really ready to work.
I know almost every contractorI've worked with will help groom
that person into being a contractor'cause they want to see the success.
The stories that I have of plumbingcontractors who started out as a
young apprentice, maybe five yearsnow, they're actually starting
to own their own businesses.
(11:34):
They're moving on, they're settingup their own trucks, and they're
making sign significant dollars.
Entrepreneurship.
I mean, absolutely.
Yeah.
Um, and here's the, the caveat.
In most areas, you don't have topay for the apprenticeship program.
You can get.
We, PHC Foundation has ascholarship to pay for their
training over three to four years.
Um, some of the communities willpay, some of the employers will pay.
(11:56):
So you're coming out, you graduatein say, three years through wait.
You're still getting paid, you'reearning while you're learning.
Um, but you have no debt.
So now you're suddenly now making70, 80, $90,000 a year in your
early twenties with no debt.
I mean, I know I had debt.
I mean, my wife, everybody I know comesoutta college with significant debt.
Yeah, great.
You make a job, you 50, $60,000 a year.
(12:18):
Wonderful.
You still got the debt.
Debt.
Guess what?
Yeah, I could say that.
I went to school for college forfour years, university of Rhode
Island, and I came out more lostoutta school than I was in school.
And I was a programmer.
I was in business, I out in finance.
I went into it and then I wentinto selling tools and equipment
for, to, uh, skilled trades.
So I zigzagged around.
(12:38):
A lot of people had that too.
I feel, and it's funny, I was, I'm not,I'm not wearing my red shirt, but it
does say college is not for everybody.
It's not like, it's not everybody'spath, but I do think there's a
unique opportunity for somebodyto learn a trade and why, like
you're in your apprenticeship, youare actually earning and you're
learning, and you're making money.
(12:59):
And nothing stops someonefrom going from college.
What we find happens is after theyget their apprenticeship and they're
working, many of younger contractorsare going to school to learn
business, finance, marketing, andthey're using those business skills.
'cause once you startowning your own business.
You have to start learninghow to run a business.
And that's where, that's it'sa whole different skillset.
All animal that Yes.
(13:20):
And they, they utilize college, theyutilize organizations like PHCC to kind of
gain that training, financial management.
Um, and that's, that's the growth.
And what's also happening is a lot of the,there's a consolidation in the industry
where companies now are buying up othercompanies, but what's ing is you could
be a contractor working for a plumbingcompany that's got a thousand employees.
(13:43):
So you need to separate yourselfprofessionally to grow in that company.
So there's opportunities that, again,you're college is not out of the
picture, it's what you're using it for.
You know, you have a purpose and a missionas opposed to just, you know, whatever
you can finish, you know, English majoris not gonna do it for you, so, right.
Yeah.
You talked about the soft skills.
I just go back to that for aquick second because when you
(14:05):
said like, show up on time.
It's, you know, maybe yearsago that's like, you did that.
But today, like if you find, and, and I'ma business owner, so like I understand,
like you see that younger individual, andyears ago you just took it for granted.
But like now it's like, stay off yourphone, you know, show up on time,
you know, stay late, be curious.
(14:25):
And if you are a business owner, you lookat that individual and you say, wow, that
is a person that I can really mentor, thatcan really scale up in, uh, my business.
Well, here's the little secret that I, Ihave found over the last few years with
the plumbing contractors, the ones whohave built their successful businesses.
What they find is many of theirchildren don't want to get into.
(14:48):
Taking over their family business.
Some do, and we've got greatstories on that, but many don't.
Maybe just, you know, becausethey've built their business,
they've been successful.
Now the kids are living off the fruitof their success and they're doing what?
They go to college andthey're doing something.
Or doctor, a lawyer now.
So what they've done, many of them is whoamongst their employees could I eventually
(15:12):
give their, sell the business to?
And that's what's happening.
And then we've, you know, in Georgiahere, one of our former past presidents
has just sold his multi-million dollarbusiness to two current employees.
They're tanking it over.
And it's a commercial HVAC bill, uh, uh,technician company that's just amazing.
They've been all over Georgia.
(15:32):
They've done some of the, theduct work and the stuff in this
building, in the convention center.
It's amazing.
So there's opportunities thereagain, you know, that you can achieve
greater success being entrepreneurial.
Um, but it's a little bit, I find it's.
The, the learning side of things,you know, there's, is there's the
perception that the younger generationdoesn't wanna work or doesn't wanna
(15:53):
learn or doesn't wanna do this.
I think that they just learndifferently, different motivators.
Yes.
They're, they're, there's, it's different.
It's, it's always like ourgeneration is telling the younger
generation, they don't work like us.
Yes.
Right.
And they're saying, well, we don't wannawork like you, we want work life balance.
We, we, we do things differently.
They're coming up in a completegeneration, different generation.
(16:14):
It's funny, the PHEC EducationalFoundation has an academy and, and this
is what a a nice point I wanna bring out.
So when we did our apprenticeshipprogram, you know, old school
correspondence courses, they used tomaybe get a hundred people a year.
And then about six yearsago, they developed an online
program for apprenticeship,both for plumbing and hvac.
And about right now we have about.
(16:36):
16 to 17,000 registered users.
So about human being wise, it'sabout six to 7,000 participants.
We average about 2000,over 2000 apprentices go
through that program a year.
The average age of thatapprentice is 26 years old.
26. 26. Yeah.
So that's the, and it's all,it's all you say it's all online.
(16:57):
It's virtual.
It's online.
But based on what state you in,you still have to get your hands-on
training to get through their program.
Um, you work with a state chapter and you.
You do your hands-on learning whileworking, and then you do your online
program in conjunction with that PHCcontractor and they record the hours.
'cause you have to havethat certification.
(17:18):
And most people hear like,oh, it's 10,000 hours.
You're like, oh my gosh, I can't do that.
No, that's over three to four years.
You will work that no problem.
As long as you're working the job.
Um, so it, they find thata lot of people enjoy it.
It, it's, it's, and we've had analmost a 90% retention rate, but the
average age is 26 to 28 years old.
(17:38):
And when we find out, alot of 'em went to college.
Didn't wanna do it, bailed out.
Quit, didn't like it, it wasn'tfor them, didn't go to school.
Um, you know, some just kind ofmilled around and discovered working
at Starbucks is not a career.
Right.
Or McDonald's.
Yeah.
Yeah.
McDonald's, I mean, not nothingagainst them, you know, but still.
Um, and a little bitof like what we talked.
(17:59):
Michael Rowe was talking,I read his book about the 7
million Lost Generation of men.
Um, I'm glad he is here talkinga little bit about that.
'cause there's fact to that and I thinkthere's a, a generation of young men
also who if they found an opportunityin the trades, they would love it.
I think they would enjoy that comraderyand that would get them engaged.
(18:20):
There's, like I said, a lot ofcomradery, connection, uh, bonding,
brotherhood, Brotherhoodhood, word.
I love that.
Brotherhoodhood.
That's a brotherhood.
They would love it.
And PHCC, an organization's beenaround for years, over 140 years old.
That's kind of why it started.
And they still, when you talk to theold guard members, they still call it
like a brotherhood, a community of.
(18:42):
Of contractors that still keep in touch.
And, and that's something we've beena connection that, you know, a lot
of this lost generation now needs tounderstand that there's an opportunity
here for you to build a career.
And it's not what mom and dad wanted.
They wanted you to go to college, butyou're sitting in your basement playing
rob robots, you know, or something.
You know, you can change that.
(19:02):
And, and I think if they, we, I get alot of folks who are like that, they
milled around for a couple years.
They finally said, it'stime to get serious.
Now they're doing, henceaverage age 26 to 28.
Yeah.
So imagine those lost years thatthey've been wandering around for
almost, what, eight years now?
Yeah.
So, well, lucky they found outbefore they were, they did, you know.
Yes.
Late thirties or, or mm-hmm.
(19:23):
Or forties.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Um.
You know, it's, it's, it's, it'sinteresting how the, the environment
has changed overall and how socialmedia has really brought the attention
to even any trait, but plumbing itself.
And I think of like individuals,obviously we talked about Roger Wakefield.
Um, there was another, uh,young woman named Paige Knowles.
(19:45):
Yep.
On her page.
Yep.
On her page.
Uhhuh, I had her on my podcast.
She's usually here at Skills.
USA.
Yeah.
She's not here.
Um, and she talked about, it'sinteresting, she talked about.
Um, going into residential homes.
And when they answered thedoor, they're like, they see
this, you know, young woman.
They're like, wait, you'rehere to fix our plumbing?
(20:06):
Yeah.
And she goes and she fixes the plumbing.
And like these, some of these like, uh,husbands are like, I, I don't understand.
I can't fix this stuff, but you can.
And I love that stuff.
I love those stories.
There's so many wonderfulstories of that, of, you know,
young women who are getting it.
I, you know, wonder forPHEC, the foundation.
We've been talking more, telling ourstory, you know, on social media as well.
(20:27):
And I, I've had to talk, talkto Roger Wakefield and, and
Plum Page and other influencers.
Talk more about it becausethere's such great stories.
You know, we just profiled, uh.
A 27-year-old female plumber outof Indiana, you know, and she is
growing and successful in a business.
She's now like, the business is booming.
We had another gentleman outta NewJersey, he went to Fordham University.
(20:50):
You know, he's a PhD, HC contractor.
Um, hated.
Finance went to Wall Street, hated it.
Just it was awful.
Like I'm not doing this.
Goes back to his father who hasa plumbing company and says,
dad, I wanna work with you.
I wanna be a plumber.
Dad probably thought, why did I just payfor Fordham University for you to do this?
Nope.
Gets in there now, five, six yearslater, he is bought the data out and
(21:11):
it's a multimillion dollar business.
Um, brought, I've got in Georgia here,they'll be here to, I think tomorrow.
I wanna see if they're gonnastop by, um, two identical twins
going to be plumbing contractors.
They went to University of Georgia.
They were like, this is not for us.
We wanna get into plumbing.
And they're, they're goingthrough a course right now,
an apprenticeship program.
I can't tell the difference theyhave to wear different shirts.
(21:32):
But these are the stories.
These are young professionalswith a great bright futures.
And you know, there's, the onething about plumbing is it's
a recession proof job as well.
And that's the fear of theeconomy going right now.
Look, it doesn't matter is you still gottaget stuff fixed, um, and you're gonna
still do the things you do, whether it's,it's either on the plumbing side or hvac.
(21:53):
And HVAC will break.
That's as simple as that.
It happens especially withthe heat here in Georgia.
Good lord.
Um, but that's the thing.
And same with plumbing.
You need your water.
You need pipes burst in thewinter so that never ends.
Doesn't matter if it's a greateconomy or a recession, it
is recession proof position.
During COVID, it was an essential service.
(22:14):
Contractors never stopped working.
They just always kept going,and they grew their businesses
even more and more successful.
Um, and the entrepreneurial,entrepreneurial ones that knew how
to build customer base relationshipsgrew even more significantly.
Um, and some of them know how tothrive and they're very personable
and they're great conversations.
One of our board members on ourfoundation, you know, he, eight
(22:38):
years ago, we started a businessof small plumbing shop in Arkansas.
First year he made like a couple hundredthousand, eight years later, he's about
$5 million in Little Rock, Arkansas.
If that's a king's ransom.
Yeah.
$5 million.
Yeah.
So I mean, these are,and, and they're good.
Honest people who want to share that,none of them sit there and say, I
(22:58):
don't wanna see these kids come in.
Or they, they encourage it.
They're like, I wanna see, they go tothe school, they actually volunteer
their time at schools to train.
I love that folks.
And, uh, they go to the schools'cause they, they get frustrated
on the perception issue ofwhy these kids don't get in.
And then what they find is, and itgoes back to what Michael Rose said.
They, that brotherhood, that, thatmentoring and that growth, that
(23:22):
relationship, that connection,those young people, once they
connect, they, they succeed.
I would say that the success rateis usually very high, probably in
the high eighties and nineties.
They'll stay and put through, um,you know, and that's, that's the key.
The ones who don't fail that don'tmake it through, unfortunately, I
always see, is that they may have justhad the bad experience or too many
(23:43):
people telling them they can't do it.
And that's the sad part, and that's thediscouragement of your school counselors.
Maybe it's parents, it's friends.
You need to get around peoplewho are in a positive mindset.
Yeah.
I just wanna throw out one other name.
Juline Cassidy, um, who actually I had onthe podcast and she runs Tools in Tiaras.
Yes.
And she was recently on, I guess MikeRowe did a show and she was on, and she
(24:03):
got money and it was really cool to see.
But you know, she's doing great thingsout there for the industry and it's, it's
wonderful to see how they're giving back.
To, to, to the industry.
And it's funny, I was listening toanother podcast and, um, you were talking
about AI for, for a quick second there,and it's called The Diary of the CEO.
(24:24):
Um, and they had this, uh, ai, uh.
Individual on it.
He's like the godfather of ai andthe first thing big, uh, hosts ask
him like, AI is gonna take over.
What, what do we, what dowe do has become a plumber?
That's the first thing he said.
I'm like, yes, that's true.
Yes, it's true.
We actually had a, a, our campaignfor last year was this saying
(24:47):
that AI can't replace a plumber.
And it was a poster of like thisterminator looking, trying to
look at a wrench, like, whatam I supposed to do with this?
Even the AI couldn't figure it out.
Um, it, the, the interesting thing is AIis growing more and more as a resource for
the contractor to help them be a bettercontractor, better trained contractor.
And it's the same with the apprenticeship.
(25:09):
We're utilizing AI and projectmanagement to help them and.
We're, ironically, AI is becomingmore of a partner in the plumbing
industry than anything else.
Less so, it's not replacing jobs,it's enhancing that contractor's
ability to do their job.
And that's something we teach and wehave programs on that now, and it's
great and we're seeing the difference.
(25:31):
And maybe some of it's just a call center.
You know, we, you know, our, ourpresident was just talking this
morning about, he uses a, an AIcall center and it's called Emily.
So Emily will talk to you, schedule yourappointment and do all these things.
Here's the thing, that plumbing,plumbing contractor, he's still there.
He's working, he's out getting in histruck and he is getting everything ready
(25:51):
so that contractor's an in great living.
You know what we don't need?
I don't need somebody sitting on aphone, you know, somebody fresh outta
college who, that's the low entry job.
So there in itself, the co thosecollege jobs that are not there, um,
even a low entry are being replaced.
So, and that's something it's.
Profoundly educationally,we have to change.
(26:12):
Um, we were talking, I guess a few weeksago, the president put out a whole, uh,
executive order about encouraging folksto get into the trades more, and, and
plumbing and HVAC was part of that becausethe reality is the economy is changing.
You can't have a housing boom.
Without more plumbing contractorsand more, you know, educated, you
know, technicians getting in there.
(26:33):
You can't, you can't grow cities.
You just, there won't be available.
Um, there's, there'sno way to replace that.
So you can't have another housingboom and economic growth without that.
The plumbing and HVACindustry is part of that.
Um, and the problem is, if we don'tstart replacing the ones that are
retiring and selling, we're gonna be.
In a difficult spot.
(26:54):
It's gonna take longer to build, it'sgonna take longer to, to grow more,
you know, more angry homeowners.
Well, it's interesting you say homeowners,because even people in my neighborhood
who can't even turn a wrench, letalone put a light bulb in, you know,
I always say like, you're gonna waitthree or four weeks for a plumber and
you wanna pay one to $200 an hour.
And I, I remember my, uh, mypipe froze for my, uh, sink and
(27:18):
my wife was like, go fix that.
I'm like.
Okay, I, I'll try to fix it.
And I blasted a bunch of heat.
It didn't work.
And then I called a local plumber and heis like, look, my rate is, you know, yeah,
a couple hundred dollars, you could doit yourself, but it's gonna cost, like,
and then I ended up throwing it out and Ifelt like a, you know, fulfillment there.
But there is a, there's a uniqueopportunity and he said about,
(27:39):
you know, becoming a journeyman orbecoming a master in your trade.
You know, the leap to entrepreneurship.
Um, what type of, do you offer anytype of support for someone making that
leap from technician to business owner?
Because it's a whole different skillset.
Is it anything that the association does?
We actually do.
We have a number of courses.
One of 'em was examples, a businessessential leadership program.
(28:02):
It's for that contractorseventually looking to leave or
maybe take over the family businessor the business they're in.
Um, do they want to grow and become anentrepreneur and own their own building?
Uh, our, our company, and one ofthe things we have is a number of
different programs that encourage that.
Ironically, the number one issue thatthese young business owners have is.
(28:25):
Finance business, like accounting,they, that's the stuff they get caught
up on and that can make or break theirbusiness if they do not know how to
handle the money that comes in and out.
Um, so we offer courses,we offer coaching.
To help them.
They will come in and share whata p and l statement is and how to
(28:46):
set up your invoicing, how to trackyour invoicing and your supply.
That's the the number one issue.
Young entrepreneur, uh, businessplumbing contractors, owners
struggle on and, and beyond.
PHCC.
There's other groups andprivate, uh, you know, firms that
actually will help with coaching.
And in that coaching, the keyis to coach 'em to success.
(29:06):
And so that becomes the biggest obstacle.
The second part isunderstanding what sales is.
You know, and training your team andunderstanding sales to be professional
and you know, you just can't walk in.
Again, the perception, you know, theplumber crack, that is something we
actually coach and say, do not showup at somebody's house like that.
(29:27):
Sure you can't do it.
You have to come in, you'reprofessional, your uniform is clean.
You know if you need the wash up, youhave to It's first impression, right?
First impression.
First impression is everything insales for that young contractor.
If you wanna build thatrelationship with that cons,
that customer for years to come.
That'll be it.
And we have some of, some of the stories.
That's amazing.
(29:47):
I mean, some of the plumbingcontractors we have, their family
business has been around for ahundred years, a hundred years,
three, four generations of plumbing.
And they taught that early on to theirkids that you have to be professional.
You know, you're not walking in thereand that, you know, you're just not
walking out without anything you want.
You have to be organized.
Your communication, how you'representing, you're selling.
Other, newer, you're, you're tryingto help this person upgrade their
(30:10):
equipment, and most importantly,you're here to build a relationship.
And that's the other part of that,that social dynamic, that younger
generation is still learning.
You know, it's, you know, we're soused to being on the phones and you
know, they're on TikTok and videos and.
They're not socializing.
And that's another thing that we tryto encourage in our association is
get to know some of the contractors,get some mentorship, understand
(30:33):
who you're doing and within yourown company, they encourage it.
It, it's the growing thatrelationship, that connection.
So when you go and meet.
You know, you know Joe Smithat his house to fix something.
You're hoping that your company buildthat 20 to 30 year relationship.
And, and that's, that's the key and that'sthe changeover from being that apprentice
to a new contractor to eventuallysaying, I wanna start my own business.
(30:57):
And you have to learn that over time.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
You know, there are, there arecompanies out there that have
their own apprenticeship, right.
And they're, it's a biginvestment to do that because.
Some will say, well, I bring thisperson in, they train and they leave,
and now I put all this investment.
But overall, the percentage actuallyis higher in a sense that they make
(31:17):
the investment into that individual.
But it's a unique opportunity.
But also there's, there's also a lot ofpushback too that some of these kids are
trying to get into an apprenticeship, but.
The companies are asking for three tofive years of experience, and I, I, I, I
can't get in and I, I, I send resumes in.
What would you tell those individuals?
You know, it's interesting.
I've heard that here and thereand, you know, and I always love to
(31:39):
talk to those kids more and kind ofunderstand how are you going about it?
You know, most contractors,it's not a resume.
It's, you know, you either go throughyour school program, um, which is
a different curriculum than PHCC.
Most of the PHC Academy apprenticesare going through the program.
In a sense, 'cause they're older.
You know, a contractor that's looking toinvest money is not looking at your resume
(32:02):
and say you have five years experience.
Um, you know, they want to see thekeys, professionalism, you know,
how do you present yourself, yourability to learn and your ability
to be on time and be professional?
That's the interview process for them.
That's how they judge.
They don't look at a resume and say,well, this person's got some experience
working at Starbucks for five years.
(32:24):
You know, that's okay.
We don't have a problem.
You can bring you in and youknow, do the interview and put
you through because they're gonnainvest the money in and train you.
If you're doing it throughour PHC Academy, through the
apprenticeship program, you know,they work with you, they mold you
into the contract that they want.
A lot of the schools right nowwill use a different curriculum,
uh, called the N-C-C-E-R.
(32:45):
Another way they learn in school,they'll go through a technical school,
technical program, and as they graduate,they will then the schools will link
them up with contractors at that point.
Um, you know, it just dependson the region, but it's.
Very rarely you're gonna get someonethat's turned away for a specific reason.
It's, I would hope not.
It's not, I would hope not.
(33:06):
It's not the case at all.
I mean, they, you know,they're actively encouraging.
They need apprentices and, but whatthey don't want is, is someone that
is not gonna take it, take it serious.
You know, and I, you know, I, inyears of working and where I'm at,
I get, and when I open a positionfor something, I get 10,000 resumes.
Some of 'em are like, did youeven read the job posting?
(33:27):
Right.
It's not like that in the, in thisindustry, you know, if you choose to move
around to different, and, and there'sopportunities at different levels.
There's large scale plumbingcommercial companies.
Yes.
Then that's, but you haveexperience already as a plumber.
You've, you've worked in a companyof that size if you wanted to be a
building maintenance person again.
More success in that opportunitiesas well on the plumbing side.
(33:50):
So I don't see a lotof obstacles to get in.
It's, it's whether you have thewill to get into it and the desire
to get through that, that part.
But most times it's very littleturned away that I'm aware of.
If you know for the individualsthat again, are interested in
plumbing, commercial, residential,union, open shop, what.
(34:13):
There's a lot of information out there.
What do you, what would you recommendsomebody do or look at what's hot today?
It, it's, all of it is, you know, with,you know, there's differences in every
aspect of what you just mentioned.
Um, PHEC has an organizationwithin the organization.
We have union, we have open shop, we have,you know, commercial, we have residential.
It's just depends on what your preferenceis and where do you want to go and
(34:36):
what type of work do you want to do.
Um, you know, looking at a commercial.
Uh, plumbing contractors very differentthan a residential, you know, and you'll
stunningly you'll see about the, the sizeof the type of projects they're doing.
Yeah.
Some of that will require more advancededucation over time, potentially
a college degree and a plumbingcontracting license is also incredible.
(35:00):
But that's, that's a career builder.
You know, if you have thatexperience and you go through
college and say you're an engineer.
Uh, you're crazy not to go and geta plumbing license with that because
you're more marketable in that position.
Now you're looking at constructioncompanies that say, I want this guy,
he's an engineer and he knows plumbing.
So now he's gonna know when I buildthis, you know, 20 story building,
(35:21):
he's gonna know what I need.
Uh, and that's on the mixed usedevelopment or the large scale property,
uh, commercial development sites.
So you want somebody with that background.
So a contractor who does that and getsthat license and an engineering degree.
Your marketability is huge and the sky'sthe limit for you in terms of salaries.
If you wanna get into residentialplumbing, again, same thing,
(35:42):
successful in June, but it'sa different type of training.
It's more the hands-onunderstanding what that is.
But again, success is thereif you're willing to, to put
the work and the hours in.
If somebody was wanting to know where theycan make the most money, open shop, union.
I mean, obviously you own yourown business, but it's, you know.
It's, it's a gamble as well,uh, winning your own business.
(36:03):
Absolutely.
Well, the union's different in the sensethat their training, they're, they're,
they have requirements that, you know,they're, they're looking at someone
they wanna keep for 20 to 25 years.
So, I mean, I, I joke and say maybeit's a little bit like the Army.
You're signing a contract for a numberof years that you're gonna participate
and go through that training.
You know, then they require like fiveyears of apprenticeship training.
You get paid and you getbenefits and things like that.
(36:25):
But their requirements aredifferent because they look at,
if they approve you and you haveto go through an approval process.
You're looking at being part ofthem for 20 to 25, maybe 30 years,
and you know, your pension andeverything is built into that.
My brother's an electric elecelectrical, uh, electrician, I'm
sorry, in, in St. Louis, local one.
(36:45):
And he's been with his local union.
Uh.
Um, IBEW for almost 25 years.
Foreman, he was lost, came outta theMarine Corps, didn't know what to do.
Loves it, has so much fun.
Enjoys it.
He's got the comradery, hasdrinks with his, his things.
Now he's a foreman.
You know, he's in St. Louis.
Probably makes close to $200,000 a year.
He loved it.
But it is a lifetime flyingcommitment to be part in a union.
(37:08):
That's how they see it.
Um, in an open shop, that's your choice.
What you do, you wanna work for acouple years for a contractor and
go out and do your own business.
You wanna bounce around.
You wanna move around.
You can do that.
And that's one of the things Ialways find interesting is like, you
know, we've, I've known some of thecontractors I talked to, they grew up in
Tennessee, they got their license there.
If they wanna move the veil,Colorado, this is one gentleman
(37:31):
and he says, yeah, I love skiing.
Well I'm gonna move over to Colorado.
Found out their requirements,got the training, got it done.
He does plumbing on the side,but he's also an avid skier.
Oh, okay.
So he has a life in sense beyond,uh, you know, beyond what he's doing.
And he wanted to do that.
But you have a marketable skill nowthat you can move around and take
around the country if you can fulfillthe requirements of that state.
(37:53):
And, and that's one of the things that,again, it's wonderful to have, yeah.
I mean, the union, sometimesit's hard to get into.
Yes, yes.
Right.
There's limited amountof seats and yes, yes.
Some kids get discouraged.
Well, I can get in the firsttime or the second time I have,
uh, a cousin who wants to be anelectrician and he's a career changer.
I'll get into that quick second, buthe's about 36 years old, has two kids.
(38:14):
Decided after 15 years of working forTrader Joe's, I wanna be an electrician.
And now it's starting all over again.
Are you seeing career changers?
You know, you said 26, 28,but like 30 plus, 40 plus.
That's the medium.
So yes, we have a number of contractorswho, you know, they're career changers
and you know, maybe we've had folks.
Computer science.
(38:34):
I see a lot of the folks coming out ofthat industry that says, this is crazy.
I got laid off.
Uh, you know, a gentleman I spoke to, youknow, laid off from working at Google.
He went, got his degree, hated it,decided I'm gonna get into, become, get
my plumbing contracting license, goes intoa program that we have and turns around
and he is very incredibly successful,now, invests in real estate in Northern
(38:56):
Virginia and he, 10 years later he ismaking, you know, a lot of money both
on the plumbing and the real estateside 'cause he fixes his buildings up.
Um, but so there's again,an opportunity, so.
You know, with the market constantlychanging, we we're seeing a, an uptick,
especially in, you know, a lot of withthe wholesale government layoffs and
that that changed around there as well.
And we're seeing folks inquiringabout getting into the plumbing
(39:20):
contract 'cause it's a secure career.
If you have a collegedegree, that's wonderful.
It adds to your marketability.
Dependability in their, in thecontractor's mind that wants to hire you.
There's a chance that then youcan grow into more of a business
type position for that contractor.
And once you become the contractor,you've worked in the field, then you
start getting a whole of a team, thenyou get promoted and you're handling
(39:41):
five or six people now, or maybe more.
You grow within that company, especiallythe large scale, uh, plumbing companies.
And you know, and especially whereI'm at in Northern Virginia, some
of them have eight, 900 employees.
And that's a lot.
That is a lot.
You know, and they're doing alot, especially on the HVAC side.
Most of those are large scale companies.
And the other thing we're seeing, whichis interesting, you'll get a kick outta
(40:02):
this, is that, so what's happening,there's a consolidation of growth as
well, where now you're seeing plumbingcompanies that do hvac, they're adding
electrical and they're adding roofing.
That's the part where now you're seeinga corporate kind of structure taking
hold, but they haven't lost sight thatthey're still a plumbing contractor.
So they still train theirpeople in the same way.
(40:24):
And the model is very similar, whetherit's to any of those four business units.
Yeah.
And they love to see that growth.
And like I said, I've seen.
Millionaires be made overnight, you know,on certain aspects of being in the trades.
Yeah.
You know, I think we touched upon it,but, uh, you know, these companies
being sold to private equity, andthis was covered in the Wall Street
Journal, that, you know, these, um,people who are, let's say 65, 70 looking
(40:48):
to retire, are making good money.
You know, selling to private equity.
I don't know what's gonna happen yearsfrom now with private equity, how it's
gonna consolidate the whole industry.
I'm not sure, but.
They're, they're, they got theseand they're not, look, not exciting
businesses, but, you know, they, they,they give off a good amount of money,
but now they're, they can retireand, you know, sail into the sunset.
(41:11):
And some do that.
And we've had a, and PHCC has a number of,of our contractors that have done that.
And, you know, I saw a list somewhere.
What are the, you know,top businesses to get into?
What are the top fields if you weregonna invest in a business, um, plumbing
was either number one or number two.
HVAC was number like in the top fivebecause you can start those companies,
(41:32):
get your license, become a contractor,and with that consolidation, if you've
had your business and successful and youhave a market, depending on where you're
at, and if a private equity or anothercompany wants to buy you, they're offering
significant dollars for your business.
And I've seen a couple of themsell their businesses for millions.
And say, I'm gonna retire now.
(41:53):
Maybe I'm in my fifties, or guess what,I'm gonna start some other business.
Or I'm gonna get into theeducation and training side.
And, uh, I here at Skills we have a coupleof our, our, our contractors are working
now with students at the competition.
Some of them have done that.
They sold their business for a significantamount of money and they're here now
volunteering their time to help thenext generation of plumbing contractors.
(42:17):
And when you hear their story and you say,how much did you sell your business for?
So you know they've got that, thatboat somewhere in West Palm Beach.
And then they come hereand they wanna volunteer.
Give back.
They're just giving back great stories.
They're giving back becausealmost every contractor I've ever
spoken to is that's near sellingor near end their, their career.
They all say the same thing that I loved.
(42:37):
I wanna give back 'causeit's been so good to me.
And most of the times they find thatthey're, if they're selling their
business to private equity, the numberis so significant, or in all honestly.
They don't have anyone else totake the business over and they
don't see, you know, they don'twanna do, what are they gonna do?
They can't keep doingit until they're dead.
So, and you can't take the money with you.
So they wanna enjoy the time that they'veput their hours and their time in.
(42:59):
They wanna enjoy the, the,the fruits of their labor.
Yeah.
At least they have the opportunity.
Somebody stopped by and I forget, he'sdoing a podcast here and I'm, now, I'm
blanking on his name, but he said hehad a 13, $14 million plumbing company
and he sold it and now he's doingpodcasting and that type of stuff.
Yeah.
But he's giving back.
And it's, it's just that fulfillmentaspect about paying it forward.
Yeah.
(43:19):
Well, it's interesting if, if you dohave an upcoming side, one of our, our
contractors who just sold his business toa private equity firm and you know, he's
wrapping it up and he's here volunteering.
He's been volunteeringfor a number of years.
So one of the things he's gonnabe helping us do is trade.
Train the, the world skillscompetition competitor for plumbing.
So PHCC about a few years ago, we'vealways had a plumbing competitor
(43:41):
in our world skills competition.
But he would play second, maybelast, you know, and I mean, we
were losing the countries thatdidn't even have working plumbing.
Wow.
I'm like, how does that evenpossible, that impossible.
Yeah.
And so we said last year was thefirst type kid that we brought in.
To say, okay, who's your world skills?
You know, who's our skills?
USA champ, let's get him trained.
And he, this the kid we had last year,a great kid out of Fargo, North Dakota.
(44:06):
I mean, he was a handsome fellow.
Um.
He went, we trained him for about a yearand you know, he did an amazing job.
He still plays 20th out of 40competitors and we put the training
into him, but now he's like thelocal celebrity of Fargo as this kid.
He never went anywhereoutside the US in his life.
(44:29):
Um, he spent a month in France and Italy.
His family came, he said it was themost amazing experience he's had.
We had him travel around thecountry, the different PHC events
and different opportunities.
He got the meet, came toWashington to meet his senator.
Loved it.
Just a great kid.
And so now we're getting readyto select the next gentleman,
(44:49):
uh, in the next few weeks here.
And same thing, he's gonnaget to go to Shanghai, China.
Oh, that's awesome.
In next year.
And, but what we're trying to say is lookat the opportunities that he would've
never had that he knock on into plumbing.
That's the thing.
He could have done something else.
And he originally, last year, BradyK Crawl said, you know, I, I'd
(45:11):
probably be working at a Walmartor a Starbucks or something.
I got into plumbing and I loved it.
And now he came here,the skills, the dream.
He, he came, I think he,I came in second place.
We picked him as the candidate 'causehe, the only one who's available at
the time, um, put the time and effortin and had the trip of his life.
Now he goes back and he tells thestory to all the kids at, you know,
(45:32):
the plumbing schools and stuffaround the North Fargo, North Dakota.
These are the, theseare the success stories.
Yeah.
That I love to hear about that.
It is possible to do very well.
Working with your hands.
And is there anything else that wedidn't cover that you would like to say
about, uh, plumbing or your organization?
Oh yeah.
So, so just so folks know, PHCC,the Plumbing Heating Cooling Council
(45:52):
Association, we've been aroundfor a long time, about 140 years.
And, but it's always been an organizationfolk dedicated to the plumbing and HVAC
industry and training and, and growing.
The offshoot of that is ourfoundation and our academy.
Our foundation was sponsored 40 years ago.
Um, raised about a million dollarsin the eighties, 1980s to funds
(46:14):
scholarship for education and training.
And a, a nice story of that is,uh, our chairman at the time went
to go play golf with Herb Kohler.
Right head of Kohler,you know, the company.
And they asked him, Hey, we'retrying to start a foundation.
You know, we wantmanufacturers support us.
Would you support us?
And he said, on the golf course,well, how much can I give?
(46:35):
He goes.
Gonna give us a million dollars.
And Herb Kohler said, sure.
So he comes back and he goesto the board and he goes,
maybe I should asked for more.
Yeah.
But that has now built to a legacy ofalmost, you know, now where we have
given out thousands of scholarshipsover the last 20 years or so.
And I mean, you know, we, we give outabout $150,000 in scholarships a year.
(46:58):
And in our academy, our apprenticeshipprogram has grown to, like I said, over
well over 2000, uh, apprentices a yearthat are taking our online program.
And it that in itself, we've got,like I said, about 15 to 16,000
registered users that are going throughthis program, taking these courses.
Um.
(47:18):
I always like to say PHC is oneof the leaders and we, we get
beyond the theoretical, like whatit, you know, get into the trade.
No, we actually help you get into thetrades and that's one of the things
I love about this, this program.
I love working for this group.
They're a great group of people.
You couldn't ask for better folksto work with and you know, it's an
honor and a pleasure to work with PHC.
The foundation and what we do, it'ssomething I get to enjoy doing every day.
(47:41):
And, uh, I love telling the story ofgetting into the trades and the plumbing.
It's just so much so wonderful.
You know, it's, and Iappreciate what you're doing.
Yeah.
And the talking more, you know, preachingabout this because more parents need
to hear this, more school counselorsneed to hear it as well, uh, that
they're missing out on getting somegood kids into some successful careers.
And I'm hoping that we can continuethat message in the future.
(48:03):
Yeah, that's what it's all about.
It's just need a big, bigger microphone.
Yes.
Yes.
Uh, if people wanna find out more aboutyour organization, where do they go?
Social media or your website?
Sure.
Uh, uh, PHEZ is a, you know,PhD, hc uh, dot org and, and how
opportunity to go to education.
You can look up educational foundation,but if you just enter in pcc uh, dot
org, you'll find that informationmore about the association, and
(48:26):
then you can connect over to thefoundation and the academy as well.
Definitely check that out.
Um, it's been a blast havingyou thank you on the podcast.
Thank you for all of the informationand that's super helpful to people
who are just coming in to the industryand super excited to hear what's
gonna happen at Skills USA in your,uh, neck of the woods over there.
(48:46):
Absolutely.
I gonna stop by there,so definitely stop by.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Alright.
Thanks for listening to TheLost Art of the Skilled Trades.
Visit us@andrewbrown.netfor more resources and tips.
Join us next time for real stories andmeaningful initiatives as we celebrate
(49:07):
our men and women in the skilledtrades and shape the future together.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!