September 8, 2024 • 50 mins
Curious about how the medium of Film can heal trauma and foster growth? This week's episode features an enlightening conversation with Dr. Joshua Lee Cohen (USA), media psychologist and CEO of the Digital Storytelling Project.
Dr. Cohen researches how film and video-based therapy can assist individuals coping with PTSD, depression, and anxiety by engaging their senses, emotions, and imagination. We also discuss how film can drive societal change and create meaningful dialogues.
Contact Guest:
https://yourdigitalstorytellingproject.com
https://filmandvideobasedtherapy.com/
Upcoming book:
“Film/Video-Based Therapy and Trauma: Post Traumatic Growth”
Instagram:
@film_video_based_therapy
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Loud Whisper Takeover podcast.
My name is Cindy Klaas.
I'm an action actress, alsomaking film.
As a human being and as anartist, I've always valued
personal growth.
A lot of my artistic work isabout transformation.
Right now I'm working on a newscript.
I'm writing a new action movie.
I don't know yet where it'sgoing.
I'm at the very start of it butthe development of one of the
(00:22):
characters is tied to theprocessing of trauma.
Today I have a very specialguest.
He talks about a creativeprocess, community building.
He's based in LA, he's a mediapsychologist, an author of many
books and he has a film andvideo editor's background.
Please welcome, dr Joshua LeeCohen.
(00:45):
Hi, dr Cohen, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Thank you for inviting me today.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I'm really excited to talk to you today.
So you are the CEO of yourDigital Storytelling Project.
You specialize in film,video-based therapy and trauma
and how it relates topost-traumatic growth.
Can you give us a little bit ofan explanation of what you
actually do and what your workconsists of?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Well, as a consultant , we're growing fishing grants
with the government right nowhelping a company called LaughMD
which shows comedy videos topatients in hospital settings,
and so we're bouncing first somepretty important grants like
the NIH or this one with themilitary, and there's a few
others congressional, so we'retrying to get funding for
(01:37):
building the app, making it morefocused on certain populations.
We've used it for cancer,chronic pain and we're getting
from child's dumb in those areas, so laughter is the best
medicine, so we're using it asmedicine.
That's just one of my clients,but it gives you an idea of how,
when I consult what we're goingfor getting funding through
(01:58):
these avenues and it uses theresearch that I did from
Routledge to help support that,and so that's how I use.
Film and video therapy is we'regoing to the future and
building different examples forpeople to use, and the book is
really a collection of peopleall over the world, so I have
people from Italy and Spain andsome a lot from the U?
(02:21):
S and the famous generalpatents grandson, who does these
multi-day filmmaking workshopson an online basis across the
country.
They've done clinical trials ontheir method and making films
actually reduces symptoms ofpost-traumatic stress for those
suffering from service-relatedstress, from service-related
(02:42):
stress.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
So when you're saying you're, for example, showing
comedy videos within thosesectors, are we talking about
short films?
Is it like?
Are they informative sort ofvideos?
Are they fiction?
What sort of videos are wetalking about?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
They're actually like Science, Zelda, Monty Python or
there's funny cat videosstand-up, but we've gone through
and vetted them to make surethat they're not inappropriate
for hospital settings so thatthey might trigger them Still in
an early stage.
But there's a lot of otherfeatures and tweaks that make it
specific to doctors as well,and right now we have.
(03:20):
We've been on the front page ofNew York Medical on one of
their websites.
There's been research andanecdotal studies done also in
the USC Norris Cancer Hospital.
It was launched at Cedar Sinaiwhen it was a television show
and a few other places that haveused it, including Norris
Cancer Hospital for the iPads tobe out and the USC's IGM Art
(03:45):
Gallery at Keck School ofMedicine.
So it's a real interesting piece.
When you see people laughingand you realize that this is
actually helping them, it makesyou laugh and then you go wait,
I just laughed, did that help?
And so it helps to lighten themood, but it also physically has
some health effects that arealmost like medicine, and so it
(04:09):
really helps in so many ways.
And that's just from watchingfilms.
The cancer research that I didwas or I didn't do it, it was
one of my offers.
It was also in New York andworking with the transitioning
age population.
Now, cancer is pretty difficultto go through already, as a lot
of people know, and so thepsychological effects of it were
(04:32):
a lot of depression, PTSD,anxiety, and so making
narratives and making moviesactually helped them to process
it and internalize it, creating,in some cases, some of the
studies that need to cope andmastery over their skills and
reducing some of those symptomsof depression.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
It gives meaning.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
A friend of mine who is a film editor in the
Directors Guild has also trainedunder Peter Levine's method,
which is a method for trauma andit's about dealing with
overwhelming experiences.
He says that you can learnabout sensation, affect,
behavior, invention, meaning,the way that Peter Levine talks
(05:15):
about with traumas.
That's what makes a good film.
He's saying that you want afilm that is a lot of sensation
and not just words and dialogue.
Dialogue but like music andmovement, and then the affect
you want to feel something, andthen there should be a behavior,
some sort of action, and thenan image of course, and then
meaning and he calls thatstriking and people being calls
(05:38):
that the side vamp, and paullikes to know it has to bam, try
to remember.
It's got a punch to it so thatyou, when you look at your films
or you look at any of your work, you can say does it match,
does it resonate with the sidevan?
You know, does it give it?
All those elements and meaningshouldn't really last in a film.
It's really a medium that movesand gives sensations and you
(06:02):
feel it in the body, not so muchin your head, and that's where
it also works for trauma andthat's why it's a pretty good
match with filmmaking becauseyou know the military even
there's a very similar rankingto how they set up a film
hierarchy, and so the militaryfound it very easy to go into
these workshops because theyknew exactly how to follow the
(06:24):
place and who was in charge andhow to follow that order Even if
they were different ranks whatthey'd be doing in the film.
So it allows people tocollaborate gives them a sense
of community in the project andthere's a lot of things that it
could be used for.
That can be very healthy.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
And so, if we're talking about the person that is
watching, right, the film andthe positive effects that it has
, are you saying that all thecontent that is being shown has
a positive aspect it's comedy,that sort of things or would
there also be films that mightbe very sad to watch?
Does that also help to processsome part of their emotional
(07:05):
trauma, or not?
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yes, we're not doing that with this one.
But when it comes to Aristotle,if you go way back to the
Greeks, he had the termcatharsis, which meant literally
purge or the vomit, and it alsomeans to purify.
So people would go and watchlike a tragedy, like later with
(07:26):
Shakespeare and it would cleanseand purify the emotions of the
audience when you see a tragedy.
So that's the purpose ofprobably why so many Hollywood
films are getting the AcademyAward, not when they show the
altruistic happy ending but whenthey show the tragedy, because
that really gets into theemotions of the audience and
allows you to breathe or feelwithout having to have a loss.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
And it just it really .
Speaker 2 (07:52):
It's like.
It's like having wasabi of thesoul.
It means happier system, and soI hope that people don't
interpret this as only funnyvideos are going to be healing.
The whole gamut is very healthy, and even the ability to make a
film, especially, is to be veryhelpful, but not so much in a
(08:16):
therapeutic way.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
I found it's more about some other things like
empowering and connecting,collaborating and building
community so, and before I askquestions, as a maker, I still
want to talk about us watchingmovies.
So obviously you work withpatients that have certain
illnesses, or maybe people inthe military that are going
through post-traumatic events,but even us being at home
(08:41):
binging Netflix.
Should we be mindful of what wewatch and what we consume?
Because obviously, for example,I love watching a good thriller
or something with suspense.
Would you say it is positive,it's positive in certain
circumstances or not?
Or what would be your take onthis?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Well, it depends, of course, on the person.
There's a guy by the name ofGary Solomon who was a social
worker and I flew him out for aconference when I was doing my
undergrad work.
That's where this wholeinterest started, and he showed
films to his patients.
So he would say you know, Ithink this kind of reminds me of
this, and what's amazing aboutthis it's so obvious when you
(09:22):
hear it is that the suspensionof disbelief is what pulls
someone out of denial and that'sthe focus of his work.
If you think about it,documentary is more about fact,
but with fiction you get to thetruth of real emotions.
Not that you don't withdocumentary either, but film
that goes into fiction has avalue that you don't have to
(09:44):
worry about the labels allmatching up.
You get creative world wherethe truth comes out of how you
feel, where it's documentarydoes evoke emotion, but it's
also more based on are wegetting the facts right,
hopefully, and getting anarrative based off of that,
because you have a animals.
So I think a lot of peopledismiss fiction as being sort of
(10:08):
like well, you know, I don'twant to do a thriller.
That's bad for you Sometimesgoing through a crisis and
coming out of a case can be verycathartic, and you can feel
that in a lot of, you know,horror films and comedies alike.
It's just a matter of is thatgoing to be right for you or is
that going to be triggering toyou?
Or you might get through it,but do you really want to eat
(10:29):
popcorn all the way through?
Or are you going to watch Fieldof Dreams and only think this
is Iowa and they have a lot of?
They have a lot of corn in theseal.
Maybe this is is it cute for meto get popcorn?
No, it's been father-sonrelationships.
But if they get popcorn out ofit that's fine.
But this ails.
I just hope that if people usefilms for healing, that they
(10:52):
talk about it somehow, not justwatch it and have the catharsis.
But the whole point of whatboth ways are about is to bring
conscious things that were kindof laid dormant in our
unconscious as troy or evenyoung talked about.
So bringing that to theforefront is important.
(11:12):
To share that with someonelater, which people do often.
They go to the coffeeafterwards and they go to dinner
and they're like, oh my god,can you believe this?
And that actually can behealing right there, because the
connection you have withsomeone afterwards is where all
the healing really takes placeanyway, whereas art kind of
opens up the door.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
And that leads me to my next question, my mentor that
I love very dearly.
He always told me, cindy, artasks really good questions.
It doesn't per se give answers,but it asks good questions so
that we can then create,eventually, you know, healthy
spaces for debates and that isthe purpose of art so that those
(11:53):
debates and those conversations, conversations can happen.
So can you talk a little bitmore about what you said?
You know, like the after film,the having a coffee, the talking
about the sharing of what wejust saw, like what does that
generate in our hearts and souls?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
I love that question because you're basically asking,
what does the soul want?
And that's going to bedifferent.
The mention that I brought backto trauma is that when you're
overwhelmed, sometimes you don'teven know that you're
overwhelmed over something, butyou see a film or you see it
happen to another character.
I think his name was NeilDiamond, the famous science
(12:31):
fiction writer, talked about howfiction can actually help
develop the muscle for empathy,because empathy is not like I
hear it misused all the time,where people say, oh, you need
to show respect, or they sayempathy, but they meant respect,
meant respect.
Empathy is like it's a muscle.
You have to kind of develop it.
As for open up the door forcompassion and and be receptive,
(12:52):
it's not really something youcan actionably do.
It's more of a passive thing,and so when I hear people or
people see a film, it opens upthat door to empathy, because
then you're you're connecting tocharacters that aren't even
real but you're feeling it likethey are and you're able to find
out things about yourself andyour friends and your world
(13:14):
around you that maybe you hadn'tthought of before and you're
going to want to share that withsomeone, because that helps
build empathy in not just thecharacters, but people like that
, yourself and the world aroundyou.
It the in some such a powerfulmedium, it's not just the actors
of the world, just thecinematography, music, the
(13:34):
movement, the blocking, thelocation.
There's so many differentpeople.
Even the props person could putin something like, if you think
of, think of Indiana Jones whenhe's getting that idol, that
leads a mark on people for therest of their lives and everyone
remembers that.
Everyone plays an hugelyimportant part, like even the
(13:55):
craft service people on set orthe hideout scenes when you're
doing posts.
There's so many differentelements.
It's a huge city that basicallycomes in and makes Shonsa light,
literally on the actors andit's such an amazing thing that,
with all the miscommunicationthe world, that these projects
can even come together andpeople can even finish things.
(14:17):
That amazes me.
Probably a lot of the people inthat too, but it's uh, if you
think about it, it's like onecohesive message when it's done,
but there's like 15,000 peopleinvolved.
Not even exaggerating.
It's amazing what.
What happens when that comestogether.
It happens all the time, Likeit's nothing.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
It's so true.
It is such a magical experience, like my first ever short film.
It was a passion project.
I didn't even know how to makea film and all of a sudden I
attracted 26 people to make it,which was absolutely insane
witness of how everybody justmoved together as a one and as a
(15:02):
team we were.
We came together within amatter of days and then seeing
the final product I just want tobounce back on something that
you said that I thought wasreally powerful, which which is
through film, we basicallydevelop empathy, we create
empathy and we often talk, Ithink, as as filmmakers, you
(15:24):
know, we don't do it for thefame, but we are storytellers
and stories kind of changehearts and can transform people
or give hope.
But what you're saying is notonly that, we also contribute to
the wider world because we helppeople develop and nurture
their empathy.
That is so incredibly powerful.
So how would you say, how doyou see the power of film even
(15:49):
going beyond processing trauma,but actually even being able to
contribute to a way better worldin that case?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I think a good explanation would be from a
chair for a show of film whereit is called Russia.
I think they have so manydifferent angles and stories
contributing to this one event.
I think a woman was raped andthen someone comes in and
explains it to the police whathis story is and then they show
the film again from anotherperson's perspective and none of
(16:19):
them line up, like they're alltotally different epithets of
the same event.
And I think it was so commonthat people can have different
stories on the same event thatthis became what you just called
the Rashomon Sefton people,what you refer to it as we don't
know what really happened and Ithink that kind of empathetic
(16:40):
response of knowing that wedon't always get the whole story
and it may sound compelling,but if you hear and open up your
heart and listen to what otherthings, other perspectives,
other political views, just withrespect, and listen and think
there's a whole story behindthat could be a whole movie,
then you can live your lifehopefully being the star of your
(17:02):
own film.
Then you can live your lifehopefully being the star of your
own film, hopefully go into anextra in their own movie.
But it's easy as a metaphor.
But to be able to listen thatway and there's probably another
whole film behind that that I'mjust not getting, and that that
leads us to being open and thatkind of openness is what leads
(17:22):
us to empathy.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
I want to ask you a silly question, if I may,
because you talked about filmsthat might trigger something in
us.
So, for example, there is oneparticular kind of film that
makes me cry, like in a second,and that is when there is a
couple that is madly in love andone or the other dies in the
(17:45):
movie, and when that person died, it just I started crying like
a fountain and I always thoughtwhy do I have this sort of
reaction?
Do I have like a past lifewhere, you know, I lost the love
of my life, or what is this?
Because I cannot, like, Icannot connect it to anything
that I've personally experienced.
So what would you make of that?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
When you focus on something that's not real, or
like when playing as a kid witha toy or a blanket or teddy bear
, that's a transitional objectBecause you're putting
characteristics to it that arepart of you.
And I lost a teddy bear when Iwas a little kid and it was like
a horrible glitch defense.
It's just an inanimate object.
(18:27):
But when you carry an emotionalcharge that you project onto
something which speaks about,like what is film, it's not even
real, it's just solid framesthat when you play it really
fast it's literally projected.
And that is a term they use.
Because you're taking yourimagination, your internal
worlds and putting it all on theline and trusting that they're
(18:48):
going to take you to a goodplace.
If you think about, likeanything that happens in a film,
if that happened in real lifeyou wouldn't be crying, you'd be
fearful and scared and allthese other things.
But because you trust thefilmmakers that most of the time
they're going to resolve theissue, you can eat popcorn and
enjoy it and pay money becausethis experience allows us to
(19:10):
surrender into a pattern that islike reassuring that life has
some sort of meaning to it inthat brief two hours.
So hopefully, like you know II'll cry off of weird things
Like I just saw the Steve Martinproduction entry the other day
on Apple and I love the movie somuch because here's a very
(19:32):
funny comedian but also had somevery poignant, like romantic
roles throughout the years andI'd seen all this stuff growing
up and it's just like to see anarc of a human being to be able
to act so seriously and writevery poignant novels and at the
same time be hilarious.
That really, I think, reachespeople in in different ways,
(19:52):
because you don't see a lot ofactors at that range and he's
like in the 70s now but it youknow, seeing that kind of like
whole breadth of a human beingand being and showing the public
like, hey, this is whathappiness looks like.
You have to go through somestuff and you have to be a
little.
You can study philosophy, butin logic, but you also have to
(20:12):
get a little silly.
You have to be able to connectto people and that's what his
focus was.
I guess in college he studiedphilosophy and wondered about
the meaning of life, but then atthe end of the day he said I'm
just going to focus on my craft.
But philosophy kind of told himhow to break things apart, and
comedy helped connect him andbring things together.
(20:32):
And then his acting careerbrought him into a longing that
kind of made it more aboutromance and searching and
connecting in different ways,and that's his books and all
these other things and his music.
You know, people are somultifaceted that you know you
can reach out in a romantic zoneand maybe that is part of you
(20:56):
that you know is still longingfor something.
And then it dies and you're likewait, that's not the way I
wanted it to be, but it doesn'thappen.
That's the cool thing.
It's like you get a relief.
You don't have to actuallygrieve, hopefully, but that
maybe there is something youknow a loss there that needed to
be completed, and in real lifewe don't always get to complete
(21:19):
or see the ending of things,whereas we see a tragedy, but at
least it's over and we canclose that part off and retread
its role.
It would be nice if we had thatin real life.
We have commencement ceremony,we have little rituals, but it
doesn't always happen.
Some things are just left, likethe sentence just not even
(21:41):
finished, so hopefully ithopefully was a good cry is what
I'm asking.
Like the sentence was not evenfinished, so hopefully it was a
good cry is what I'm asking,like hopefully it wasn't like oh
my God, I hate this.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Usually I have like really deep, profound cries.
I'm like in full empathy withthose characters.
But yeah, I can really connectto what you're saying.
Maybe there is the loss ofsomething else that happened in
life and that was just my way ofprocessing it through another
story.
That was maybe not linked withwhat I saw, but there was the
essence of that story that kindof triggered this emotion or
(22:16):
helped me process a emotion.
It feels good too.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
It feels powerful, it feels overwhelming, but when
you're done you feel like aballoon that got deflated or
something it's like how did thismagic happen?
Because it touches you in a waythat I don't think any other
art form can, because itincludes all the other art forms
.
You've got music and you've gotdance.
I mean, it can be anything.
And to answer your otherquestion, I think it can address
(22:42):
wars that have not been.
You know, it does, you know,think of, like the John Wolf
films.
Or he answered questions aboutlove and war at the same time.
There's lots of examples of that, where they expand their scope
(23:03):
to include political andsociological questions that may
not even be answerable andsociological questions that may
not even be answerable, and insome cases they just answer the
question in comedy, like I'veheard a different opinion on
this, but like Bruce Almightymight actually include Morgan
Freeman as God.
Yeah, that's the character.
So there's very little room fordebate about what his existence
and they can get in morequestions about in that context.
I'm not going to throw the ABSoff the cliff yet, just to be
(23:25):
able to say, hey, this allows adifferent kind of discussion to
go out there and it's fun andit's the suspense of disbelief
that allows people to enter newdiscussions and new worlds and
feel things that maybe theywouldn't have felt before.
New worlds and feel things thatmaybe they wouldn't have felt
before.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
And you know, this conversation is also giving me a
lot of confidence in what I'mdoing now, because I'm writing a
new script.
But then there's this thing of,okay, I'm writing a script and
I'm following whatever is comingup, and that's creativity.
But then these questions start.
Right, it's like, yeah, butwhat kind of audience is going
to relate to that?
What kind of?
You know, like you already, I'malready further ahead in the
(24:04):
process, whereas I should justtrust that the script has an
essence, with a character thathas an essence, and whatever the
character will feel, well,another person might get healing
through it, even if it's notthat particular story that
played out in their lives.
So you are also coaching andconsulting for people that are
involved in film and making film.
(24:24):
So let's talk aboutpre-production first.
So pre-production there wouldbe the screenwriter and then the
producer and like the directorand casting and things like that
.
What kind of things would yougive as advice or top tips or a
special point of view that youhave for everything in regards
to pre-production and how we canimplement what you're
(24:46):
researching and what you'reworking on within that phase of
filmmaking?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Well, I'm going to plug a company that does
location scouting and usesvirtual reality for
pre-digitalizations.
That's the third floor andthey're huge in what they do
with everything from game ofthrones, the avengers, all the
huge effects films and whatthey've done is they they just
do the pre-visualizations forusing vr.
(25:10):
I think vr can be very helpfulin a lot of things.
I didn't know that they alsoused it for location scouting so
the location scout andpre-production wouldn't have to
fly out there.
They could first see if I'm inv and move around and get the
shots lined up and go.
That's where we need to go andthey did that a lot.
So virtual reality is being usedmore and more in Unreal Engine,
(25:33):
even to give the directors areal sense of power and form
before they can start.
And the other thing that I love, that kind of merges
pre-production and postaltogether.
Now is Unreal Engine alsocoming from virtual reality and
start.
And the other thing that I love, that kind of merges
pre-production and post alltogether now is Unreal Engine
also coming from virtual reality.
Dr Skip Rizzo did the forewordto my last book and he's at the
Institute of Creative Technologyat the University of Southern
(25:55):
California and they combinepeople that are academics at
Hollywood, people and all kindsof creative and technical people
and act to write newtechnologies for medicine.
And they've done that with thearmy as well.
And so what I love about whatthey're doing with the unreal
engine is it takes all thoseelements together and actors are
(26:19):
mostly reacting to things.
So if you're going to put adinosaur from like jurassic park
, from the f4, like robinwilliams as I joke you know joe
angie in those interviews wherehe's like you can't see the
rhino, how do you get around?
And so what I love about theunreal and virtual film set is
now they can see it and and thenthen that also helps the people
(26:41):
in doing pre-production forcinematography, because now
they're getting reflective lightinstead of a green spill and a
lot of real sunsets that you canshoot for hours at a time now
or literally move mountains.
It helps both pre, during andpost all together and just
(27:01):
brings it back to story mode pre, during and post all together
and just raise it back to storymode.
So, and I'm hoping that thatwill come through in film and
video therapy so that patientscan use that as well and they
actually have like a $20,000version people can use and even
one on the iPhone.
I found this company that saidwe'll allow you to put unreal
(27:25):
like right into your eyes on andshoot it so you can have like a
set behind you and then move.
The eyes on the set, movesalong with it, even on such a
low budget.
So that's opening up doors forwhat I'm trying to do, so that a
doctor or a psychologist canuse it and make movies with
their patients and what's thematerial?
Just like I think it was GabrielByrne in the HBO special in
(27:46):
treatment, they just showed themdoing a session and that was a
whole hour of an HBO show andthey did a whole series on that
where people just withoutcutting away or showing
flashbacks, they just showedreally a well-done drama of what
goes on in the therapy room,because it's a story.
(28:07):
Ultimately, people are comingin.
You know where they came from,they share something very
intimate and then you have tolisten and open up your heart to
them and try to not coach them,because you can't tell them
what to do.
You have to be able to ask themquestions that will hopefully
lead down to themselves and letthem do the work.
(28:29):
It's really hard to deal andthe guy that plays you know
therapists in that.
Um, the tv show it's called intreatment again, just so people
look it up.
It's just an amazing depictionof what a therapist goes through
and what the patient goesthrough and how that dynamic is
very dramatic.
I don't even think they putmusic, it's just a session and
(28:52):
there's so much going on thereand when people find themselves
or they find these triggers,it's really easy to identify
them.
Really, it's really easy toidentify with them.
So storytelling is essentiallyjust being able to get lose your
suspense, create the suspenseof disbelief and just enter that
(29:13):
world.
And that's why I see theparallel of therapy.
It's just know that each personis in their movie and even try
to use the techniques of film.
If we could use the techniquesof seeing it as not the
production end, but more as the,the writers end, or even the
film viewers, I need to say look, this content that we're
(29:35):
watching or that we're creatingin our lives could be like a
film and know when you're in thesecond act of the film.
You know that when you'rewatching it.
But it's hard in real life to go.
I'm going through all thisright now, probably because it's
going to get resolved later ifI address it, and that could be
very comforting because after awhile life does tend to have
(29:56):
like a, an art to it and it'swatching films teaches us how to
act and how to be and also howto enjoy, how to celebrate, how,
when that lull comes out.
You know, not every part of thefilm is full of conflict.
Sometimes we're celebratingparty anger.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
There's so much to life that that pattern mimics
and that is very important totherapy so you talked a lot
about sort sort of film that canbe made between patient and, or
about patient about therapistor between therapist and patient
.
Do you have another example ofa production that has been maybe
(30:39):
implementing some of whatyou're talking about within
their team and within theircreative process, but where the
end result was a wider audienceand where there were still a
possibility or open doors forhealing, even though they might
not have been the military orpatients, but where as creators,
(30:59):
as filmmakers, we as a team canreally take something from this
to say, oh, my film is morethan just this story.
Do you have another specificexample that you could give?
Speaker 2 (31:11):
The book that I did just recently.
It's film and video and trauma.
There's a film in there calledthe director and the drama
therapist that worked on it.
The director called the filmGanny Girls.
It went to a lot of festivals.
It was seen by a wider audiencebut it addressed some of the
issues at the time of Skid Rowin Los Angeles and so she
(31:37):
brought in a drama therapist towork with them and talk to them.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Just for the audiences that don't know Los
Angeles.
So Skid Row is an area in LosAngeles where there is a huge
amount of homelessness and alsoa big community of drug addicts
that are living in the streets,right.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Thank you for filling in.
Unfortunately, that's the wayit is and it's hit almost a
crisis point where our mayor,karen Bass, has declared that as
her first priority and becauseour governor also had a large
priority in focusing on that.
Even before COVID they had alecture like a press conference
(32:13):
at a board of care home.
So it's become really almost ahopeless situation, but they're
focusing on a lot of resourcesboard of care homes, affordable
housing and just trying to makeit more accessible.
My goal, I think, with puttingup that particular chapter in
this to bring awareness to it,so people people could read the
(32:35):
book and I have a website thatI'm going to plug that later is
so people can see clips of thefilm, they can see the work that
people do with clients and theycan have an idea of what we do,
because there's people beendoing this since the 40s.
I just trademarked it andcalled it film and video therapy
, so that it continues to have alicense attached to it and it
(32:57):
starts to build a brand thatprotects the professionalism of
both communities of filmmakersand therapists, so that
therapists don't start thinkingthey're filmmakers and
filmmakers don't start thinkingthey're therapists.
But ultimately I've seen whereit's headed and I hope it does
is that peer support specialistis a new bill that was passed
(33:19):
into law and so people startedtaking those courses, which
they're not that much, andsometimes you can get
scholarships through, like NAMI.
I think filmmakers couldactually take that and learn how
to support each otherofficially and build off a
medical health back.
That would be really helpful inthe community, because not
everyone could be everything toeveryone, but that might be as a
(33:42):
way of doing healing zones on amassive level, and there's a
lot of communities that can dothat.
I just see that it's a realpotential.
Uh, boom and benefit forhollywood, because there's
actually so much suffering.
Artists and people try andstruggle for money and that
could be one way of reallyreaching out and cleaning the
(34:03):
past, getting paid for it andsupporting each other in the
process, which would make abetter film too.
So the funding would come out ofthe film as a better reach to
the audience, because thenthere's a more tender moment or
more ability to reach those.
Especially if you're an indiefilmmaker, there's a lot of
struggle there to do this onevery level.
(34:25):
That might be a one way ofdoing it and that's something
I'm going to try to focus on thenext book.
But I think getting it outthere in a podcast it's like,
hey, it's open to anyone to dothat, you just have to take the
training course and pass it fastand then you just basically
well, I'll figure out a protocolfor it later, but I think
people can figure it out.
There's enough problems in theworld that if that solved all of
(34:48):
them and I put myself out ofbusiness, that's awesome,
because I don't think we'regoing to get to the root of all
trauma.
I think it seems, unfortunately, it's going to be around
forever, because that's just apart of life.
But if that right there can helpmake filmmakers' lives easier
to connect and give them moretools to connect from mental
(35:10):
health so that they make betterfilms but also, more importantly
, they have more fulfillinglives.
That would be the goal of whatI'm trying to do.
I'm more focused on thefilmmaker than the end product,
whereas I think traditionalfilms are more about let's do
whatever it takes, let's get agood you know, check the gate,
clean it and then go on andwe'll forget the person that's
(35:33):
screaming and crying on theground and just tell them to get
up and hurry up and wait.
It's not always like that.
If the priority is on thefilmmaker, just like in any
business, I think you're alwaysgoing to win, and that takes a
little different skill set, butthey have trainings for that now
, so you wouldn't have to golike to be a psychologist.
You just have to have a livedexperience.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
And then that lived experience is something that you
relate to others with and thatthey're saying it's what helps
heal you also told me that oneof your big, biggest successes
is actually healthyrelationships that you've lost
and rebuilt through your work.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about that?
Speaker 2 (36:13):
yeah, I'll self-disclose a little bit,
because I do have a PhD.
I'm quite a bit trained, butI'm also I've lived experience
with bipolar disorder, which iswrecks, havoc throughout one's
life.
There's never like an end to it, and when I got divorced, my
little you know boss a lot ofconnections in my family.
I burned like almost everybridge you could imagine in my
(36:33):
life, from banks to schools.
It felt like I was just a rag.
So when you have healthyrelationships in your life, you
get your family back, you getyour friends, even my ex-wife
and I I send her jokes a lot.
We keep a healthy boundary,though, and so if you have three
(36:54):
things I think are reallyimportant, that I learned about
reconnecting is have love, theappropriate calories and the
occasional cheeseburger.
I just joined the third one, butI don't know why but those
things can really strengthen anyrelationship is when you have
(37:14):
those boundaries and people feelthat sense of power back and
their sense of respect, and thenit allows them to play and
enjoy all those elements.
And that's just true foreveryone.
And it really helped me to getback connected to my family and
a lot of my friends and evenhonestly, when you have respect,
(37:37):
even your enemies will look atyou differently.
Those still may not like you,but if they have respect for you
, get that boundary back andthat's a good way to be in the
world.
When you literally respecteveryone, you see even people
you don't like, whether it wasopinions you just want to change
because they're just wrong butyou respect them anyway because
(37:58):
they're a human being and theyhave a right to see things from
their lens.
I don't know their Rashomoneffect, I don't know their story
and I'll never know their story, so I can't really judge them
the way I want to.
I have to take that in.
There's more to it and I thinkfilms can teach us that there's
no other medium quite like it inthe history of mankind to have
(38:20):
that many art forms.
And then editing Editing's likea new thing.
You know we don't.
You have dramas on stage but,like Carl Jung said, like you,
he's never seen something like amovie, because you can see the
entire arc of the character,from beginning to end, in a way
that like theater just doesn'tdo.
(38:40):
So.
It's a real, it's an amazingthing we've had for 100 years
and it's just getting better andmore accessible for people to
communicate.
What, um, what's his name?
Igmar bergman said it's a soulto soul communication, and
that's really the heart of whatI'm trying to do.
It's not medicine in the sensethat you're taking a pill, but
(39:01):
you're getting into the soul ofsomething, a deepening of
experience that you just can'tget with words.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
These personal stories.
Have you actually translatedthem in film as a method of
healing, or can you recognizethings in your scripts, or is it
just?
No, that was maybe the start ofthe journey that was to come,
that you're in the path thatyou're walking now well, it's
more like a journal.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Maybe someday I'll have the money to show it
publicly, but I would get dingedby the studios if I did rightly
so, because it's there.
A lot of it is their work andI've done this before.
Where before?
Where we approach them for thebook, they'll let you show clips
in certain ways for educational.
But if you combine things, theydon't like that because it
(39:45):
messes with the intendedcopyright of the artist, and I
agree with that.
So what I've been doing is moreof a personal soul collage, to
try to pour a vision board, totry to visualize my life's worth
.
Anything and everything, likeyou said, doesn't have a broader
impact.
You can affect politics, youcan address deeply held beliefs
(40:08):
and say I would like to see itthat way.
It's like in this movie when itturns out that way, you can
imagine stuff that is impossibleand may always be impossible.
But by starting from the pointof I would like to make the
world a better place, why notvisualize it?
Because you can't really builda building until you do the
architecture like a buildingarchitect and build a better
(40:30):
world.
So to make the world better,you do have to start with
yourself, but why not While youyou're there, imagine everything
better and just take it in thatway.
It may not happen, but there'sno harm in doing a film without
it, or whether it's actuallythere would be if it doesn't
sell, but if you're doing it forlike yourself, and you're
(40:53):
writing and you're imaginingthings.
Yes, we still need tragedy found, because that also brings us
back to reality, but all thosegenres will come into play.
We can't get away from traumain the world.
That's just part of humannature.
But we can change the narrativeand how we own up to things,
and as a society we're startingto do that a lot more.
(41:14):
There's so much change really.
I mean, how do we keep up withit?
And I think art has a hugeinfluence on how we deal with
stuff like ai.
That's been there since isaacasimov did his work with ai, or
even arthur c clark back in the60s.
They've been warning us,they've been telling us, they've
been showing us how to dealwith it and now that it's here,
(41:37):
um, we should dust off those oldbooks and movies and say how
did they deal with it before itbecame an actual issue?
Because there's some beauty toit, there's some danger to it,
so we have to look at it fromsee what we've already done in
art and how to handle it,because it's not going away.
Um, even if we'd like to thinkstuff like that you know, we.
(42:00):
We can challenge these thingsabout through the art, and it's
happening, and people are askingquestions.
We're going to coffee andthey're, and they're talking it
out.
I think that's healthy, and ifit weren't for art or music, we
wouldn't have the option of likereally bringing out the best of
us, the best that's in us, tothe other.
And that's a quote from aprofessor in college, but I
(42:26):
agree with that.
He used to work at RogerCorman's studios too.
He runs Ralph and Hitchcock, sohe was the funniest little
professor.
But like his whole thing ischaracter.
I don't think films are onlyabout character.
I think they are, but there'sso much more of a one on there.
One so.
But that sentiment that we canbe our best selves, it is
(42:48):
something I think is not uniqueto film, but it brings out a
heck of a lot more than any ofthe other art forms individually
.
A really positive thing.
Even the tragedy can all betterus.
But it brings out a heck of alot more than any of the other
art forms individually.
A really positive thing.
Even the tragedy can all betterus.
It can make us stronger.
It can make us weak in theareas we didn't know.
It takes us to places abouthumanity that are awful and
(43:08):
awesome.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
It's interesting that you were talking about AI,
because obviously there is hopeassociated to AI, there is fear
associated to AI.
We talked about processingtrauma through the process of
filmmaking, but obviously we seevery often we see trauma as
something that's in the past andit kind of stays with us.
(43:31):
When we talk about AI, it'smore of a future projecting,
future projected sort of fear.
Do you think we can alsoprocess these fears of the
future, the traumas of thefuture that haven't yet happened
in our body, through this?
You know this mixing ofpsychology and trauma processing
(43:55):
, but going forwards rather thangoing into the past.
For example, the Black Mirroron Netflix.
It creates a lot of anxietyrather than there is no much
sense of peace when people watchthese episodes.
So in that sense, I'm askingcan we actually process the
(44:16):
trauma of the future or do weactually just generate more
anxiety with it?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
I think that if we addressed it and stay in the
present, that means physicallywatching how we react and then,
after we're triggered bysomething, don't hold it in, go
to a friend, go to the coffee,someplace where you could walk
outside and just talk and moveand that's important to move the
exercise and when this ishappening, or just be like if
(44:46):
you're introverted, listen tomusic or read a book and just
passively take in what triggersyou, because it's good to get a
little trigger, because thatmeans there's something
affecting you and you need toprocess it your own way.
But that also leads to a lot ofcreativity on your part,
because now you have somethingto say, now you have an opinion
that has triggered you, that youneed to express and that can be
(45:07):
really inspiring it, becausethat's what's so cool at our
visit.
Like you said, it doesn't haveto answer all the questions, but
it does ask the good ones, andBlack Bear is a really good
example of technology andfuturistic stuff that brings up
future anxiety and we can makeit a better future.
I don't know if you rememberthe film Argo, so that was the
(45:29):
Ben Affleck film about usingfilms to help people get the
hostages out of that region.
So I think what I'm saying isthat filmmaking can also help us
project into the future, forthe next generation, not just
for us.
So sometimes we get deceit orangst.
It never happens but for thepresent that's the most
(45:50):
important thing being able tofocus on what's present in our
body, what the anxiety is, andnot going so far over thresholds
that we just zone out.
That's not okay.
We need to be present and havea little bit of anxiety, but not
too much.
So that's what Peter Levinecalls our nervous system giving
(46:11):
back online.
If we allow it to regulate anddo its thing, like a long
breathing, then we'll havehealthy emotions, a healthy
amount of anxiety.
We'll be talking with ourfriends.
If you're extroverted andlistening to music or reading
quiet books, and that's how youprocess things as an introvert,
there's all kinds of in vitro,but my point about creativity is
(46:32):
we need all that to create newstuff, and I think what's
happening, from what Iunderstand in the film industry,
is they're being pushed tooquickly to produce stuff without
that reverie or reflection,which is where the creativity
really happens, and so that's afault of the way the system is
set up right now, and I knowthey've had problems writer
strikes and acting strikes andall kinds of stuff systemically.
(46:55):
It would help us producersreally understood that about
their creatives so that theycould allow them to have some
space to really have reverie anddo the kind of work that ends
blockbuster shows, which is whenthey're quiet, and allowing
that empathy and that space tocome in it would really help and
they wouldn't have to have allthose strikes, because they can
(47:16):
make so much money off of realcreativity not pushing them, and
then they wouldn't need AI tocome in.
They could have real peopledoing stuff which is you can't
have a healing film with a robotand as much as it might even be
a good show, it's not going tohappen because it's not going to
heal ever.
(47:37):
Healing comes out of realpeople because robots don't heal
.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
So, writing for sci-fi, action, thrillers and
suspense, I feel really inspiredand I also have a boost for my
creativity and trust.
Also what is coming out of me,because contributing to the
wider world has always been apart of my purpose as an artist
(48:16):
and this conversation was very,very enriching and just gave me
a lot of yeah, let's go for it.
It so.
I hope that creatives that arelistening to this episode will
definitely feel the same.
Dr cohen, where can people findyour work or, if they want to
work with you, read your books?
Can you please give us thetitles, the websites, your
social media handles andeverything else?
Speaker 2 (48:32):
awesome.
Thank you, and and it has beena pleasure to be here I just
want knowing that you gotinspired and and feeling of
relief and going back to doingyour craft is exactly what the
purpose of.
What I'm trying to do is not tocriticize hollywood, but to say
you're doing such good work.
It's so much more importantthan just entertainment.
This is really affectingpeople's culture and we need
(48:54):
need this.
It's not a want, it's we needthis.
You try to take away someone'sfilm that they watched when they
were a kid and they will gonuts.
They need it like they own italmost, and so it's really
important to have Andy Jones andall the different gamut because
they speak this, all ofeverything out there.
So to find out what I do withtherapy, go to film and video
(49:17):
based.
Therapycom is the one in thebook.
It'll connect you.
If you want to find me, there'sa link to your digital
storytelling project on thatwebsite and that's where I do
all the work with grant writingand I don't write that.
I just assemble teams andthere's a professional team that
does the writing, but I'm morelike a consulting and I help
(49:38):
find things and make them work,regardless of what technique or
skill we use.
But I'm not standoffish.
I don't even get paid untilthey get paid.
I get paid out of the grant orwhatever comes through.
That way, people know that I'mworking with them and doing
everything I can because I'mmotivated by that result.
But hey, I'm just going to tellyou some advice and walk away.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Thank you so much, Dr Cohen, to be a light in this
world and to encourage everybodyto make this world a better
world.
I will make sure that I willput all the details of your
books and your website in theshow notes and I can't wait to
just continue following yourwork.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
Thank you, it's a pleasure to be.
Welcome to the Loud Whisper Takeover podcast.
My name is Cindy Klaas.
I'm an action actress, alsomaking film.
As a human being and as anartist, I've always valued
personal growth.
A lot of my artistic work isabout transformation.
Right now I'm working on a newscript.
I'm writing a new action movie.
I don't know yet where it'sgoing.
I'm at the very start of it butthe development of one of the
(00:22):
characters is tied to theprocessing of trauma.
Today I have a very specialguest.
He talks about a creativeprocess, community building.
He's based in LA, he's a mediapsychologist, an author of many
books and he has a film andvideo editor's background.
Please welcome, dr Joshua LeeCohen.
(00:45):
Hi, dr Cohen, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Thank you for inviting me today.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I'm really excited to talk to you today.
So you are the CEO of yourDigital Storytelling Project.
You specialize in film,video-based therapy and trauma
and how it relates topost-traumatic growth.
Can you give us a little bit ofan explanation of what you
actually do and what your workconsists of?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Well, as a consultant , we're growing fishing grants
with the government right nowhelping a company called LaughMD
which shows comedy videos topatients in hospital settings,
and so we're bouncing first somepretty important grants like
the NIH or this one with themilitary, and there's a few
others congressional, so we'retrying to get funding for
(01:37):
building the app, making it morefocused on certain populations.
We've used it for cancer,chronic pain and we're getting
from child's dumb in those areas, so laughter is the best
medicine, so we're using it asmedicine.
That's just one of my clients,but it gives you an idea of how,
when I consult what we're goingfor getting funding through
(01:58):
these avenues and it uses theresearch that I did from
Routledge to help support that,and so that's how I use.
Film and video therapy is we'regoing to the future and
building different examples forpeople to use, and the book is
really a collection of peopleall over the world, so I have
people from Italy and Spain andsome a lot from the U?
(02:21):
S and the famous generalpatents grandson, who does these
multi-day filmmaking workshopson an online basis across the
country.
They've done clinical trials ontheir method and making films
actually reduces symptoms ofpost-traumatic stress for those
suffering from service-relatedstress, from service-related
(02:42):
stress.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
So when you're saying you're, for example, showing
comedy videos within thosesectors, are we talking about
short films?
Is it like?
Are they informative sort ofvideos?
Are they fiction?
What sort of videos are wetalking about?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
They're actually like Science, Zelda, Monty Python or
there's funny cat videosstand-up, but we've gone through
and vetted them to make surethat they're not inappropriate
for hospital settings so thatthey might trigger them Still in
an early stage.
But there's a lot of otherfeatures and tweaks that make it
specific to doctors as well,and right now we have.
(03:20):
We've been on the front page ofNew York Medical on one of
their websites.
There's been research andanecdotal studies done also in
the USC Norris Cancer Hospital.
It was launched at Cedar Sinaiwhen it was a television show
and a few other places that haveused it, including Norris
Cancer Hospital for the iPads tobe out and the USC's IGM Art
(03:45):
Gallery at Keck School ofMedicine.
So it's a real interesting piece.
When you see people laughingand you realize that this is
actually helping them, it makesyou laugh and then you go wait,
I just laughed, did that help?
And so it helps to lighten themood, but it also physically has
some health effects that arealmost like medicine, and so it
(04:09):
really helps in so many ways.
And that's just from watchingfilms.
The cancer research that I didwas or I didn't do it, it was
one of my offers.
It was also in New York andworking with the transitioning
age population.
Now, cancer is pretty difficultto go through already, as a lot
of people know, and so thepsychological effects of it were
(04:32):
a lot of depression, PTSD,anxiety, and so making
narratives and making moviesactually helped them to process
it and internalize it, creating,in some cases, some of the
studies that need to cope andmastery over their skills and
reducing some of those symptomsof depression.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
It gives meaning.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
A friend of mine who is a film editor in the
Directors Guild has also trainedunder Peter Levine's method,
which is a method for trauma andit's about dealing with
overwhelming experiences.
He says that you can learnabout sensation, affect,
behavior, invention, meaning,the way that Peter Levine talks
(05:15):
about with traumas.
That's what makes a good film.
He's saying that you want afilm that is a lot of sensation
and not just words and dialogue.
Dialogue but like music andmovement, and then the affect
you want to feel something, andthen there should be a behavior,
some sort of action, and thenan image of course, and then
meaning and he calls thatstriking and people being calls
(05:38):
that the side vamp, and paullikes to know it has to bam, try
to remember.
It's got a punch to it so thatyou, when you look at your films
or you look at any of your work, you can say does it match,
does it resonate with the sidevan?
You know, does it give it?
All those elements and meaningshouldn't really last in a film.
It's really a medium that movesand gives sensations and you
(06:02):
feel it in the body, not so muchin your head, and that's where
it also works for trauma andthat's why it's a pretty good
match with filmmaking becauseyou know the military even
there's a very similar rankingto how they set up a film
hierarchy, and so the militaryfound it very easy to go into
these workshops because theyknew exactly how to follow the
(06:24):
place and who was in charge andhow to follow that order Even if
they were different ranks whatthey'd be doing in the film.
So it allows people tocollaborate gives them a sense
of community in the project andthere's a lot of things that it
could be used for.
That can be very healthy.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
And so, if we're talking about the person that is
watching, right, the film andthe positive effects that it has
, are you saying that all thecontent that is being shown has
a positive aspect it's comedy,that sort of things or would
there also be films that mightbe very sad to watch?
Does that also help to processsome part of their emotional
(07:05):
trauma, or not?
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yes, we're not doing that with this one.
But when it comes to Aristotle,if you go way back to the
Greeks, he had the termcatharsis, which meant literally
purge or the vomit, and it alsomeans to purify.
So people would go and watchlike a tragedy, like later with
(07:26):
Shakespeare and it would cleanseand purify the emotions of the
audience when you see a tragedy.
So that's the purpose ofprobably why so many Hollywood
films are getting the AcademyAward, not when they show the
altruistic happy ending but whenthey show the tragedy, because
that really gets into theemotions of the audience and
allows you to breathe or feelwithout having to have a loss.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
And it just it really .
Speaker 2 (07:52):
It's like.
It's like having wasabi of thesoul.
It means happier system, and soI hope that people don't
interpret this as only funnyvideos are going to be healing.
The whole gamut is very healthy, and even the ability to make a
film, especially, is to be veryhelpful, but not so much in a
(08:16):
therapeutic way.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
I found it's more about some other things like
empowering and connecting,collaborating and building
community so, and before I askquestions, as a maker, I still
want to talk about us watchingmovies.
So obviously you work withpatients that have certain
illnesses, or maybe people inthe military that are going
through post-traumatic events,but even us being at home
(08:41):
binging Netflix.
Should we be mindful of what wewatch and what we consume?
Because obviously, for example,I love watching a good thriller
or something with suspense.
Would you say it is positive,it's positive in certain
circumstances or not?
Or what would be your take onthis?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Well, it depends, of course, on the person.
There's a guy by the name ofGary Solomon who was a social
worker and I flew him out for aconference when I was doing my
undergrad work.
That's where this wholeinterest started, and he showed
films to his patients.
So he would say you know, Ithink this kind of reminds me of
this, and what's amazing aboutthis it's so obvious when you
(09:22):
hear it is that the suspensionof disbelief is what pulls
someone out of denial and that'sthe focus of his work.
If you think about it,documentary is more about fact,
but with fiction you get to thetruth of real emotions.
Not that you don't withdocumentary either, but film
that goes into fiction has avalue that you don't have to
(09:44):
worry about the labels allmatching up.
You get creative world wherethe truth comes out of how you
feel, where it's documentarydoes evoke emotion, but it's
also more based on are wegetting the facts right,
hopefully, and getting anarrative based off of that,
because you have a animals.
So I think a lot of peopledismiss fiction as being sort of
(10:08):
like well, you know, I don'twant to do a thriller.
That's bad for you Sometimesgoing through a crisis and
coming out of a case can be verycathartic, and you can feel
that in a lot of, you know,horror films and comedies alike.
It's just a matter of is thatgoing to be right for you or is
that going to be triggering toyou?
Or you might get through it,but do you really want to eat
(10:29):
popcorn all the way through?
Or are you going to watch Fieldof Dreams and only think this
is Iowa and they have a lot of?
They have a lot of corn in theseal.
Maybe this is is it cute for meto get popcorn?
No, it's been father-sonrelationships.
But if they get popcorn out ofit that's fine.
But this ails.
I just hope that if people usefilms for healing, that they
(10:52):
talk about it somehow, not justwatch it and have the catharsis.
But the whole point of whatboth ways are about is to bring
conscious things that were kindof laid dormant in our
unconscious as troy or evenyoung talked about.
So bringing that to theforefront is important.
(11:12):
To share that with someonelater, which people do often.
They go to the coffeeafterwards and they go to dinner
and they're like, oh my god,can you believe this?
And that actually can behealing right there, because the
connection you have withsomeone afterwards is where all
the healing really takes placeanyway, whereas art kind of
opens up the door.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
And that leads me to my next question, my mentor that
I love very dearly.
He always told me, cindy, artasks really good questions.
It doesn't per se give answers,but it asks good questions so
that we can then create,eventually, you know, healthy
spaces for debates and that isthe purpose of art so that those
(11:53):
debates and those conversations, conversations can happen.
So can you talk a little bitmore about what you said?
You know, like the after film,the having a coffee, the talking
about the sharing of what wejust saw, like what does that
generate in our hearts and souls?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
I love that question because you're basically asking,
what does the soul want?
And that's going to bedifferent.
The mention that I brought backto trauma is that when you're
overwhelmed, sometimes you don'teven know that you're
overwhelmed over something, butyou see a film or you see it
happen to another character.
I think his name was NeilDiamond, the famous science
(12:31):
fiction writer, talked about howfiction can actually help
develop the muscle for empathy,because empathy is not like I
hear it misused all the time,where people say, oh, you need
to show respect, or they sayempathy, but they meant respect,
meant respect.
Empathy is like it's a muscle.
You have to kind of develop it.
As for open up the door forcompassion and and be receptive,
(12:52):
it's not really something youcan actionably do.
It's more of a passive thing,and so when I hear people or
people see a film, it opens upthat door to empathy, because
then you're you're connecting tocharacters that aren't even
real but you're feeling it likethey are and you're able to find
out things about yourself andyour friends and your world
(13:14):
around you that maybe you hadn'tthought of before and you're
going to want to share that withsomeone, because that helps
build empathy in not just thecharacters, but people like that
, yourself and the world aroundyou.
It the in some such a powerfulmedium, it's not just the actors
of the world, just thecinematography, music, the
(13:34):
movement, the blocking, thelocation.
There's so many differentpeople.
Even the props person could putin something like, if you think
of, think of Indiana Jones whenhe's getting that idol, that
leads a mark on people for therest of their lives and everyone
remembers that.
Everyone plays an hugelyimportant part, like even the
(13:55):
craft service people on set orthe hideout scenes when you're
doing posts.
There's so many differentelements.
It's a huge city that basicallycomes in and makes Shonsa light,
literally on the actors andit's such an amazing thing that,
with all the miscommunicationthe world, that these projects
can even come together andpeople can even finish things.
(14:17):
That amazes me.
Probably a lot of the people inthat too, but it's uh, if you
think about it, it's like onecohesive message when it's done,
but there's like 15,000 peopleinvolved.
Not even exaggerating.
It's amazing what.
What happens when that comestogether.
It happens all the time, Likeit's nothing.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
It's so true.
It is such a magical experience, like my first ever short film.
It was a passion project.
I didn't even know how to makea film and all of a sudden I
attracted 26 people to make it,which was absolutely insane
witness of how everybody justmoved together as a one and as a
(15:02):
team we were.
We came together within amatter of days and then seeing
the final product I just want tobounce back on something that
you said that I thought wasreally powerful, which which is
through film, we basicallydevelop empathy, we create
empathy and we often talk, Ithink, as as filmmakers, you
(15:24):
know, we don't do it for thefame, but we are storytellers
and stories kind of changehearts and can transform people
or give hope.
But what you're saying is notonly that, we also contribute to
the wider world because we helppeople develop and nurture
their empathy.
That is so incredibly powerful.
So how would you say, how doyou see the power of film even
(15:49):
going beyond processing trauma,but actually even being able to
contribute to a way better worldin that case?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I think a good explanation would be from a
chair for a show of film whereit is called Russia.
I think they have so manydifferent angles and stories
contributing to this one event.
I think a woman was raped andthen someone comes in and
explains it to the police whathis story is and then they show
the film again from anotherperson's perspective and none of
(16:19):
them line up, like they're alltotally different epithets of
the same event.
And I think it was so commonthat people can have different
stories on the same event thatthis became what you just called
the Rashomon Sefton people,what you refer to it as we don't
know what really happened and Ithink that kind of empathetic
(16:40):
response of knowing that wedon't always get the whole story
and it may sound compelling,but if you hear and open up your
heart and listen to what otherthings, other perspectives,
other political views, just withrespect, and listen and think
there's a whole story behindthat could be a whole movie,
then you can live your lifehopefully being the star of your
(17:02):
own film.
Then you can live your lifehopefully being the star of your
own film, hopefully go into anextra in their own movie.
But it's easy as a metaphor.
But to be able to listen thatway and there's probably another
whole film behind that that I'mjust not getting, and that that
leads us to being open and thatkind of openness is what leads
(17:22):
us to empathy.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
I want to ask you a silly question, if I may,
because you talked about filmsthat might trigger something in
us.
So, for example, there is oneparticular kind of film that
makes me cry, like in a second,and that is when there is a
couple that is madly in love andone or the other dies in the
(17:45):
movie, and when that person died, it just I started crying like
a fountain and I always thoughtwhy do I have this sort of
reaction?
Do I have like a past lifewhere, you know, I lost the love
of my life, or what is this?
Because I cannot, like, Icannot connect it to anything
that I've personally experienced.
So what would you make of that?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
When you focus on something that's not real, or
like when playing as a kid witha toy or a blanket or teddy bear
, that's a transitional objectBecause you're putting
characteristics to it that arepart of you.
And I lost a teddy bear when Iwas a little kid and it was like
a horrible glitch defense.
It's just an inanimate object.
(18:27):
But when you carry an emotionalcharge that you project onto
something which speaks about,like what is film, it's not even
real, it's just solid framesthat when you play it really
fast it's literally projected.
And that is a term they use.
Because you're taking yourimagination, your internal
worlds and putting it all on theline and trusting that they're
(18:48):
going to take you to a goodplace.
If you think about, likeanything that happens in a film,
if that happened in real lifeyou wouldn't be crying, you'd be
fearful and scared and allthese other things.
But because you trust thefilmmakers that most of the time
they're going to resolve theissue, you can eat popcorn and
enjoy it and pay money becausethis experience allows us to
(19:10):
surrender into a pattern that islike reassuring that life has
some sort of meaning to it inthat brief two hours.
So hopefully, like you know II'll cry off of weird things
Like I just saw the Steve Martinproduction entry the other day
on Apple and I love the movie somuch because here's a very
(19:32):
funny comedian but also had somevery poignant, like romantic
roles throughout the years andI'd seen all this stuff growing
up and it's just like to see anarc of a human being to be able
to act so seriously and writevery poignant novels and at the
same time be hilarious.
That really, I think, reachespeople in in different ways,
(19:52):
because you don't see a lot ofactors at that range and he's
like in the 70s now but it youknow, seeing that kind of like
whole breadth of a human beingand being and showing the public
like, hey, this is whathappiness looks like.
You have to go through somestuff and you have to be a
little.
You can study philosophy, butin logic, but you also have to
(20:12):
get a little silly.
You have to be able to connectto people and that's what his
focus was.
I guess in college he studiedphilosophy and wondered about
the meaning of life, but then atthe end of the day he said I'm
just going to focus on my craft.
But philosophy kind of told himhow to break things apart, and
comedy helped connect him andbring things together.
(20:32):
And then his acting careerbrought him into a longing that
kind of made it more aboutromance and searching and
connecting in different ways,and that's his books and all
these other things and his music.
You know, people are somultifaceted that you know you
can reach out in a romantic zoneand maybe that is part of you
(20:56):
that you know is still longingfor something.
And then it dies and you're likewait, that's not the way I
wanted it to be, but it doesn'thappen.
That's the cool thing.
It's like you get a relief.
You don't have to actuallygrieve, hopefully, but that
maybe there is something youknow a loss there that needed to
be completed, and in real lifewe don't always get to complete
(21:19):
or see the ending of things,whereas we see a tragedy, but at
least it's over and we canclose that part off and retread
its role.
It would be nice if we had thatin real life.
We have commencement ceremony,we have little rituals, but it
doesn't always happen.
Some things are just left, likethe sentence just not even
(21:41):
finished, so hopefully ithopefully was a good cry is what
I'm asking.
Like the sentence was not evenfinished, so hopefully it was a
good cry is what I'm asking,like hopefully it wasn't like oh
my God, I hate this.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Usually I have like really deep, profound cries.
I'm like in full empathy withthose characters.
But yeah, I can really connectto what you're saying.
Maybe there is the loss ofsomething else that happened in
life and that was just my way ofprocessing it through another
story.
That was maybe not linked withwhat I saw, but there was the
essence of that story that kindof triggered this emotion or
(22:16):
helped me process a emotion.
It feels good too.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
It feels powerful, it feels overwhelming, but when
you're done you feel like aballoon that got deflated or
something it's like how did thismagic happen?
Because it touches you in a waythat I don't think any other
art form can, because itincludes all the other art forms
.
You've got music and you've gotdance.
I mean, it can be anything.
And to answer your otherquestion, I think it can address
(22:42):
wars that have not been.
You know, it does, you know,think of, like the John Wolf
films.
Or he answered questions aboutlove and war at the same time.
There's lots of examples of that, where they expand their scope
(23:03):
to include political andsociological questions that may
not even be answerable andsociological questions that may
not even be answerable, and insome cases they just answer the
question in comedy, like I'veheard a different opinion on
this, but like Bruce Almightymight actually include Morgan
Freeman as God.
Yeah, that's the character.
So there's very little room fordebate about what his existence
and they can get in morequestions about in that context.
I'm not going to throw the ABSoff the cliff yet, just to be
(23:25):
able to say, hey, this allows adifferent kind of discussion to
go out there and it's fun andit's the suspense of disbelief
that allows people to enter newdiscussions and new worlds and
feel things that maybe theywouldn't have felt before.
New worlds and feel things thatmaybe they wouldn't have felt
before.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
And you know, this conversation is also giving me a
lot of confidence in what I'mdoing now, because I'm writing a
new script.
But then there's this thing of,okay, I'm writing a script and
I'm following whatever is comingup, and that's creativity.
But then these questions start.
Right, it's like, yeah, butwhat kind of audience is going
to relate to that?
What kind of?
You know, like you already, I'malready further ahead in the
(24:04):
process, whereas I should justtrust that the script has an
essence, with a character thathas an essence, and whatever the
character will feel, well,another person might get healing
through it, even if it's notthat particular story that
played out in their lives.
So you are also coaching andconsulting for people that are
involved in film and making film.
(24:24):
So let's talk aboutpre-production first.
So pre-production there wouldbe the screenwriter and then the
producer and like the directorand casting and things like that
.
What kind of things would yougive as advice or top tips or a
special point of view that youhave for everything in regards
to pre-production and how we canimplement what you're
(24:46):
researching and what you'reworking on within that phase of
filmmaking?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Well, I'm going to plug a company that does
location scouting and usesvirtual reality for
pre-digitalizations.
That's the third floor andthey're huge in what they do
with everything from game ofthrones, the avengers, all the
huge effects films and whatthey've done is they they just
do the pre-visualizations forusing vr.
(25:10):
I think vr can be very helpfulin a lot of things.
I didn't know that they alsoused it for location scouting so
the location scout andpre-production wouldn't have to
fly out there.
They could first see if I'm inv and move around and get the
shots lined up and go.
That's where we need to go andthey did that a lot.
So virtual reality is being usedmore and more in Unreal Engine,
(25:33):
even to give the directors areal sense of power and form
before they can start.
And the other thing that I love, that kind of merges
pre-production and postaltogether.
Now is Unreal Engine alsocoming from virtual reality and
start.
And the other thing that I love, that kind of merges
pre-production and post alltogether now is Unreal Engine
also coming from virtual reality.
Dr Skip Rizzo did the forewordto my last book and he's at the
Institute of Creative Technologyat the University of Southern
(25:55):
California and they combinepeople that are academics at
Hollywood, people and all kindsof creative and technical people
and act to write newtechnologies for medicine.
And they've done that with thearmy as well.
And so what I love about whatthey're doing with the unreal
engine is it takes all thoseelements together and actors are
(26:19):
mostly reacting to things.
So if you're going to put adinosaur from like jurassic park
, from the f4, like robinwilliams as I joke you know joe
angie in those interviews wherehe's like you can't see the
rhino, how do you get around?
And so what I love about theunreal and virtual film set is
now they can see it and and thenthen that also helps the people
(26:41):
in doing pre-production forcinematography, because now
they're getting reflective lightinstead of a green spill and a
lot of real sunsets that you canshoot for hours at a time now
or literally move mountains.
It helps both pre, during andpost all together and just
(27:01):
brings it back to story mode pre, during and post all together
and just raise it back to storymode.
So, and I'm hoping that thatwill come through in film and
video therapy so that patientscan use that as well and they
actually have like a $20,000version people can use and even
one on the iPhone.
I found this company that saidwe'll allow you to put unreal
(27:25):
like right into your eyes on andshoot it so you can have like a
set behind you and then move.
The eyes on the set, movesalong with it, even on such a
low budget.
So that's opening up doors forwhat I'm trying to do, so that a
doctor or a psychologist canuse it and make movies with
their patients and what's thematerial?
Just like I think it was GabrielByrne in the HBO special in
(27:46):
treatment, they just showed themdoing a session and that was a
whole hour of an HBO show andthey did a whole series on that
where people just withoutcutting away or showing
flashbacks, they just showedreally a well-done drama of what
goes on in the therapy room,because it's a story.
(28:07):
Ultimately, people are comingin.
You know where they came from,they share something very
intimate and then you have tolisten and open up your heart to
them and try to not coach them,because you can't tell them
what to do.
You have to be able to ask themquestions that will hopefully
lead down to themselves and letthem do the work.
(28:29):
It's really hard to deal andthe guy that plays you know
therapists in that.
Um, the tv show it's called intreatment again, just so people
look it up.
It's just an amazing depictionof what a therapist goes through
and what the patient goesthrough and how that dynamic is
very dramatic.
I don't even think they putmusic, it's just a session and
(28:52):
there's so much going on thereand when people find themselves
or they find these triggers,it's really easy to identify
them.
Really, it's really easy toidentify with them.
So storytelling is essentiallyjust being able to get lose your
suspense, create the suspenseof disbelief and just enter that
(29:13):
world.
And that's why I see theparallel of therapy.
It's just know that each personis in their movie and even try
to use the techniques of film.
If we could use the techniquesof seeing it as not the
production end, but more as the,the writers end, or even the
film viewers, I need to say look, this content that we're
(29:35):
watching or that we're creatingin our lives could be like a
film and know when you're in thesecond act of the film.
You know that when you'rewatching it.
But it's hard in real life to go.
I'm going through all thisright now, probably because it's
going to get resolved later ifI address it, and that could be
very comforting because after awhile life does tend to have
(29:56):
like a, an art to it and it'swatching films teaches us how to
act and how to be and also howto enjoy, how to celebrate, how,
when that lull comes out.
You know, not every part of thefilm is full of conflict.
Sometimes we're celebratingparty anger.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
There's so much to life that that pattern mimics
and that is very important totherapy so you talked a lot
about sort sort of film that canbe made between patient and, or
about patient about therapistor between therapist and patient
.
Do you have another example ofa production that has been maybe
(30:39):
implementing some of whatyou're talking about within
their team and within theircreative process, but where the
end result was a wider audienceand where there were still a
possibility or open doors forhealing, even though they might
not have been the military orpatients, but where as creators,
(30:59):
as filmmakers, we as a team canreally take something from this
to say, oh, my film is morethan just this story.
Do you have another specificexample that you could give?
Speaker 2 (31:11):
The book that I did just recently.
It's film and video and trauma.
There's a film in there calledthe director and the drama
therapist that worked on it.
The director called the filmGanny Girls.
It went to a lot of festivals.
It was seen by a wider audiencebut it addressed some of the
issues at the time of Skid Rowin Los Angeles and so she
(31:37):
brought in a drama therapist towork with them and talk to them.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Just for the audiences that don't know Los
Angeles.
So Skid Row is an area in LosAngeles where there is a huge
amount of homelessness and alsoa big community of drug addicts
that are living in the streets,right.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Thank you for filling in.
Unfortunately, that's the wayit is and it's hit almost a
crisis point where our mayor,karen Bass, has declared that as
her first priority and becauseour governor also had a large
priority in focusing on that.
Even before COVID they had alecture like a press conference
(32:13):
at a board of care home.
So it's become really almost ahopeless situation, but they're
focusing on a lot of resourcesboard of care homes, affordable
housing and just trying to makeit more accessible.
My goal, I think, with puttingup that particular chapter in
this to bring awareness to it,so people people could read the
(32:35):
book and I have a website thatI'm going to plug that later is
so people can see clips of thefilm, they can see the work that
people do with clients and theycan have an idea of what we do,
because there's people beendoing this since the 40s.
I just trademarked it andcalled it film and video therapy
, so that it continues to have alicense attached to it and it
(32:57):
starts to build a brand thatprotects the professionalism of
both communities of filmmakersand therapists, so that
therapists don't start thinkingthey're filmmakers and
filmmakers don't start thinkingthey're therapists.
But ultimately I've seen whereit's headed and I hope it does
is that peer support specialistis a new bill that was passed
(33:19):
into law and so people startedtaking those courses, which
they're not that much, andsometimes you can get
scholarships through, like NAMI.
I think filmmakers couldactually take that and learn how
to support each otherofficially and build off a
medical health back.
That would be really helpful inthe community, because not
everyone could be everything toeveryone, but that might be as a
(33:42):
way of doing healing zones on amassive level, and there's a
lot of communities that can dothat.
I just see that it's a realpotential.
Uh, boom and benefit forhollywood, because there's
actually so much suffering.
Artists and people try andstruggle for money and that
could be one way of reallyreaching out and cleaning the
(34:03):
past, getting paid for it andsupporting each other in the
process, which would make abetter film too.
So the funding would come out ofthe film as a better reach to
the audience, because thenthere's a more tender moment or
more ability to reach those.
Especially if you're an indiefilmmaker, there's a lot of
struggle there to do this onevery level.
(34:25):
That might be a one way ofdoing it and that's something
I'm going to try to focus on thenext book.
But I think getting it outthere in a podcast it's like,
hey, it's open to anyone to dothat, you just have to take the
training course and pass it fastand then you just basically
well, I'll figure out a protocolfor it later, but I think
people can figure it out.
There's enough problems in theworld that if that solved all of
(34:48):
them and I put myself out ofbusiness, that's awesome,
because I don't think we'regoing to get to the root of all
trauma.
I think it seems, unfortunately, it's going to be around
forever, because that's just apart of life.
But if that right there can helpmake filmmakers' lives easier
to connect and give them moretools to connect from mental
(35:10):
health so that they make betterfilms but also, more importantly
, they have more fulfillinglives.
That would be the goal of whatI'm trying to do.
I'm more focused on thefilmmaker than the end product,
whereas I think traditionalfilms are more about let's do
whatever it takes, let's get agood you know, check the gate,
clean it and then go on andwe'll forget the person that's
(35:33):
screaming and crying on theground and just tell them to get
up and hurry up and wait.
It's not always like that.
If the priority is on thefilmmaker, just like in any
business, I think you're alwaysgoing to win, and that takes a
little different skill set, butthey have trainings for that now
, so you wouldn't have to golike to be a psychologist.
You just have to have a livedexperience.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
And then that lived experience is something that you
relate to others with and thatthey're saying it's what helps
heal you also told me that oneof your big, biggest successes
is actually healthyrelationships that you've lost
and rebuilt through your work.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about that?
Speaker 2 (36:13):
yeah, I'll self-disclose a little bit,
because I do have a PhD.
I'm quite a bit trained, butI'm also I've lived experience
with bipolar disorder, which iswrecks, havoc throughout one's
life.
There's never like an end to it, and when I got divorced, my
little you know boss a lot ofconnections in my family.
I burned like almost everybridge you could imagine in my
(36:33):
life, from banks to schools.
It felt like I was just a rag.
So when you have healthyrelationships in your life, you
get your family back, you getyour friends, even my ex-wife
and I I send her jokes a lot.
We keep a healthy boundary,though, and so if you have three
(36:54):
things I think are reallyimportant, that I learned about
reconnecting is have love, theappropriate calories and the
occasional cheeseburger.
I just joined the third one, butI don't know why but those
things can really strengthen anyrelationship is when you have
(37:14):
those boundaries and people feelthat sense of power back and
their sense of respect, and thenit allows them to play and
enjoy all those elements.
And that's just true foreveryone.
And it really helped me to getback connected to my family and
a lot of my friends and evenhonestly, when you have respect,
(37:37):
even your enemies will look atyou differently.
Those still may not like you,but if they have respect for you
, get that boundary back andthat's a good way to be in the
world.
When you literally respecteveryone, you see even people
you don't like, whether it wasopinions you just want to change
because they're just wrong butyou respect them anyway because
(37:58):
they're a human being and theyhave a right to see things from
their lens.
I don't know their Rashomoneffect, I don't know their story
and I'll never know their story, so I can't really judge them
the way I want to.
I have to take that in.
There's more to it and I thinkfilms can teach us that there's
no other medium quite like it inthe history of mankind to have
(38:20):
that many art forms.
And then editing Editing's likea new thing.
You know we don't.
You have dramas on stage but,like Carl Jung said, like you,
he's never seen something like amovie, because you can see the
entire arc of the character,from beginning to end, in a way
that like theater just doesn'tdo.
(38:40):
So.
It's a real, it's an amazingthing we've had for 100 years
and it's just getting better andmore accessible for people to
communicate.
What, um, what's his name?
Igmar bergman said it's a soulto soul communication, and
that's really the heart of whatI'm trying to do.
It's not medicine in the sensethat you're taking a pill, but
(39:01):
you're getting into the soul ofsomething, a deepening of
experience that you just can'tget with words.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
These personal stories.
Have you actually translatedthem in film as a method of
healing, or can you recognizethings in your scripts, or is it
just?
No, that was maybe the start ofthe journey that was to come,
that you're in the path thatyou're walking now well, it's
more like a journal.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Maybe someday I'll have the money to show it
publicly, but I would get dingedby the studios if I did rightly
so, because it's there.
A lot of it is their work andI've done this before.
Where before?
Where we approach them for thebook, they'll let you show clips
in certain ways for educational.
But if you combine things, theydon't like that because it
(39:45):
messes with the intendedcopyright of the artist, and I
agree with that.
So what I've been doing is moreof a personal soul collage, to
try to pour a vision board, totry to visualize my life's worth
.
Anything and everything, likeyou said, doesn't have a broader
impact.
You can affect politics, youcan address deeply held beliefs
(40:08):
and say I would like to see itthat way.
It's like in this movie when itturns out that way, you can
imagine stuff that is impossibleand may always be impossible.
But by starting from the pointof I would like to make the
world a better place, why notvisualize it?
Because you can't really builda building until you do the
architecture like a buildingarchitect and build a better
(40:30):
world.
So to make the world better,you do have to start with
yourself, but why not While youyou're there, imagine everything
better and just take it in thatway.
It may not happen, but there'sno harm in doing a film without
it, or whether it's actuallythere would be if it doesn't
sell, but if you're doing it forlike yourself, and you're
(40:53):
writing and you're imaginingthings.
Yes, we still need tragedy found, because that also brings us
back to reality, but all thosegenres will come into play.
We can't get away from traumain the world.
That's just part of humannature.
But we can change the narrativeand how we own up to things,
and as a society we're startingto do that a lot more.
(41:14):
There's so much change really.
I mean, how do we keep up withit?
And I think art has a hugeinfluence on how we deal with
stuff like ai.
That's been there since isaacasimov did his work with ai, or
even arthur c clark back in the60s.
They've been warning us,they've been telling us, they've
been showing us how to dealwith it and now that it's here,
(41:37):
um, we should dust off those oldbooks and movies and say how
did they deal with it before itbecame an actual issue?
Because there's some beauty toit, there's some danger to it,
so we have to look at it fromsee what we've already done in
art and how to handle it,because it's not going away.
Um, even if we'd like to thinkstuff like that you know, we.
(42:00):
We can challenge these thingsabout through the art, and it's
happening, and people are askingquestions.
We're going to coffee andthey're, and they're talking it
out.
I think that's healthy, and ifit weren't for art or music, we
wouldn't have the option of likereally bringing out the best of
us, the best that's in us, tothe other.
And that's a quote from aprofessor in college, but I
(42:26):
agree with that.
He used to work at RogerCorman's studios too.
He runs Ralph and Hitchcock, sohe was the funniest little
professor.
But like his whole thing ischaracter.
I don't think films are onlyabout character.
I think they are, but there'sso much more of a one on there.
One so.
But that sentiment that we canbe our best selves, it is
(42:48):
something I think is not uniqueto film, but it brings out a
heck of a lot more than any ofthe other art forms individually
.
A really positive thing.
Even the tragedy can all betterus.
But it brings out a heck of alot more than any of the other
art forms individually.
A really positive thing.
Even the tragedy can all betterus.
It can make us stronger.
It can make us weak in theareas we didn't know.
It takes us to places abouthumanity that are awful and
(43:08):
awesome.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
It's interesting that you were talking about AI,
because obviously there is hopeassociated to AI, there is fear
associated to AI.
We talked about processingtrauma through the process of
filmmaking, but obviously we seevery often we see trauma as
something that's in the past andit kind of stays with us.
(43:31):
When we talk about AI, it'smore of a future projecting,
future projected sort of fear.
Do you think we can alsoprocess these fears of the
future, the traumas of thefuture that haven't yet happened
in our body, through this?
You know this mixing ofpsychology and trauma processing
(43:55):
, but going forwards rather thangoing into the past.
For example, the Black Mirroron Netflix.
It creates a lot of anxietyrather than there is no much
sense of peace when people watchthese episodes.
So in that sense, I'm askingcan we actually process the
(44:16):
trauma of the future or do weactually just generate more
anxiety with it?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
I think that if we addressed it and stay in the
present, that means physicallywatching how we react and then,
after we're triggered bysomething, don't hold it in, go
to a friend, go to the coffee,someplace where you could walk
outside and just talk and moveand that's important to move the
exercise and when this ishappening, or just be like if
(44:46):
you're introverted, listen tomusic or read a book and just
passively take in what triggersyou, because it's good to get a
little trigger, because thatmeans there's something
affecting you and you need toprocess it your own way.
But that also leads to a lot ofcreativity on your part,
because now you have somethingto say, now you have an opinion
that has triggered you, that youneed to express and that can be
(45:07):
really inspiring it, becausethat's what's so cool at our
visit.
Like you said, it doesn't haveto answer all the questions, but
it does ask the good ones, andBlack Bear is a really good
example of technology andfuturistic stuff that brings up
future anxiety and we can makeit a better future.
I don't know if you rememberthe film Argo, so that was the
(45:29):
Ben Affleck film about usingfilms to help people get the
hostages out of that region.
So I think what I'm saying isthat filmmaking can also help us
project into the future, forthe next generation, not just
for us.
So sometimes we get deceit orangst.
It never happens but for thepresent that's the most
(45:50):
important thing being able tofocus on what's present in our
body, what the anxiety is, andnot going so far over thresholds
that we just zone out.
That's not okay.
We need to be present and havea little bit of anxiety, but not
too much.
So that's what Peter Levinecalls our nervous system giving
(46:11):
back online.
If we allow it to regulate anddo its thing, like a long
breathing, then we'll havehealthy emotions, a healthy
amount of anxiety.
We'll be talking with ourfriends.
If you're extroverted andlistening to music or reading
quiet books, and that's how youprocess things as an introvert,
there's all kinds of in vitro,but my point about creativity is
(46:32):
we need all that to create newstuff, and I think what's
happening, from what Iunderstand in the film industry,
is they're being pushed tooquickly to produce stuff without
that reverie or reflection,which is where the creativity
really happens, and so that's afault of the way the system is
set up right now, and I knowthey've had problems writer
strikes and acting strikes andall kinds of stuff systemically.
(46:55):
It would help us producersreally understood that about
their creatives so that theycould allow them to have some
space to really have reverie anddo the kind of work that ends
blockbuster shows, which is whenthey're quiet, and allowing
that empathy and that space tocome in it would really help and
they wouldn't have to have allthose strikes, because they can
(47:16):
make so much money off of realcreativity not pushing them, and
then they wouldn't need AI tocome in.
They could have real peopledoing stuff which is you can't
have a healing film with a robotand as much as it might even be
a good show, it's not going tohappen because it's not going to
heal ever.
(47:37):
Healing comes out of realpeople because robots don't heal
.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
So, writing for sci-fi, action, thrillers and
suspense, I feel really inspiredand I also have a boost for my
creativity and trust.
Also what is coming out of me,because contributing to the
wider world has always been apart of my purpose as an artist
(48:16):
and this conversation was very,very enriching and just gave me
a lot of yeah, let's go for it.
It so.
I hope that creatives that arelistening to this episode will
definitely feel the same.
Dr cohen, where can people findyour work or, if they want to
work with you, read your books?
Can you please give us thetitles, the websites, your
social media handles andeverything else?
Speaker 2 (48:32):
awesome.
Thank you, and and it has beena pleasure to be here I just
want knowing that you gotinspired and and feeling of
relief and going back to doingyour craft is exactly what the
purpose of.
What I'm trying to do is not tocriticize hollywood, but to say
you're doing such good work.
It's so much more importantthan just entertainment.
This is really affectingpeople's culture and we need
(48:54):
need this.
It's not a want, it's we needthis.
You try to take away someone'sfilm that they watched when they
were a kid and they will gonuts.
They need it like they own italmost, and so it's really
important to have Andy Jones andall the different gamut because
they speak this, all ofeverything out there.
So to find out what I do withtherapy, go to film and video
(49:17):
based.
Therapycom is the one in thebook.
It'll connect you.
If you want to find me, there'sa link to your digital
storytelling project on thatwebsite and that's where I do
all the work with grant writingand I don't write that.
I just assemble teams andthere's a professional team that
does the writing, but I'm morelike a consulting and I help
(49:38):
find things and make them work,regardless of what technique or
skill we use.
But I'm not standoffish.
I don't even get paid untilthey get paid.
I get paid out of the grant orwhatever comes through.
That way, people know that I'mworking with them and doing
everything I can because I'mmotivated by that result.
But hey, I'm just going to tellyou some advice and walk away.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Thank you so much, Dr Cohen, to be a light in this
world and to encourage everybodyto make this world a better
world.
I will make sure that I willput all the details of your
books and your website in theshow notes and I can't wait to
just continue following yourwork.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
Thank you, it's a pleasure to be.
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