Fire and Baby Oil - Conan: A Sword and Sorcery Spectacular - The Lowdown on the Plus-up - A Theme Park Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:09):
Between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis and
the rise of the sons of Arius,there was an age undreamed of,
and unto this, Conan destined tobear the jewel crown of
Aquilonia upon a troubled brow,it is I, his chronicler, who

(00:32):
alone can tell thee of his saga.

Speaker 4 (00:34):
Now let me tell you about the lowdown on the Plus Up

(00:57):
, a podcast where we look ateveryone's favorite theme park
attractions, lands, textures andnovelties.
We talk in over, about andthrough our week's topic and
then, with literally no concernfor practicality, safety or
economic viability, we come upwith ways to make them better.
My name is Kelly McCubbin,columnist for the theme park

(01:17):
website Boardwalk Times, andwith me, as always, is Peter
Overstreet University, professorof Animation and Film History
in Northern California.
Hey, pete, yeah, what are wetalking about today?

Speaker 5 (01:37):
Today we're going to talk about the land of sword and
sorcery in a spectacular way.
As a matter of fact, that's thetitle of this attraction
sorcery in a spectacular way.
As a matter of fact, that's thetitle of this attraction Conan
the Barbarian Sword and SorcerySpectacular.
We're going back to theHiberian Age.
That's it.
An ancient, ancient time fullof loincloths and sweaty,
muscle-bound human beings whodon't really have much in the

(02:00):
way of IQ, but man.
They're people of action.

Speaker 4 (02:03):
And you know, just for this episode people should
know visually, pete and I arejust wearing Speedos and we're
completely oiled up and we'rejust we're flexing for all we're
worth.

Speaker 5 (02:15):
Oh yeah, I mean we'll do the Arnold Schwarzenegger
grunts later, but I mean, yeah,no, I got my own, my Cringer
Supreme fuzzy loincloth, alongwith Sumerian belt buckle.
It's really great.

Speaker 4 (02:32):
So do you think it's pronounced?
I've heard it a couple of waysand since Robert E Howard died
in like 1936 or something, wedon't have any recordings of it.
Do you think it's pronouncedSumerian or Kimerian?

Speaker 5 (02:47):
Oh well, there's a third one.
Oh, chimerian too is the otherone, but I tend to I've heard it
so many times as Sumerian, yeah, or Simerian.
I just kind of go whatever.
As long as it's not cinnamon,we're good.
Or synonym, a Sumerian synonym,yeah it's interesting.

Speaker 4 (03:06):
I didn't even know it was in question until recently
because I've always heard it asSumerian.
But you know, for the millionsof times I've talked to people
about where Conan comes from.

Speaker 5 (03:18):
No man, it's Sumeria, it's Chimeria, what Okay?

Speaker 4 (03:22):
Yeah, and I've heard it recently.
I've heard it pronouncedChimeria and I was like really,
I guess it could be.

Speaker 5 (03:26):
I've got it right here.
It's in issue 92 of the SavageSword of Conan.
It's right here.
Wait, there it is.
You know it's spelled there too.
You don't know.
I can just see the panel.
Conan going Belit.
It is pronounced Kimerian.

Speaker 4 (03:49):
Now get it right.
Well, you know it's interestingto talk about because those
Conan comic books, the ones fromthe 70s primarily, they were
huge, they were good.

Speaker 5 (04:02):
Oh, they were great.
Yeah, they were reallyaction-packed.
I mean, those were—I alwaysview them as kind of like this
weird—it was kind of like aweird branch of the Marvel
comics, Like they were never,ever involved with the dealings
of the X-Men or the Avengers.
There was never a crossover.

Speaker 4 (04:21):
Way, way later, like sometime in the last decade,
there was an actual ConanAvengers team-up.

Speaker 5 (04:27):
Oh God, I wish they hadn't.
He wouldn't even cross overwith Warlord.
It was like, well, that wasbecause it was a different
publishing company.
I think Warlord was DC, butTarzan never crossed over with
him, it was just Conan and Ithink it felt like this, its own
little universe.
That made it special.
Yeah, and it was kind of like adirty secret.

(04:50):
When I was younger it was likeall the other kids are new
superheroes.
I'm like, no, give me Conan.
I want to see this becausethere's a lot more action in
Conan than there is in, say,like Spider-Man or the
Micronauts or something of thatage.

Speaker 4 (05:01):
Yeah, it's like those early John Carter Warlord of
Mars comics which I have anomnibus around here somewhere
and it spins out a little bitlater but early on.
Those are some of the greatestaction comics I ever read.
Oh yeah, they're terrific andpeople don't realize it anymore.
But until the kind of coming ofthe X-Men in what late 70s or

(05:23):
early 80s, the coming of thesecond wave of the X-Men in what
late 70s or early 80s, thecoming of the second wave of the
X-Men, right Conan was by farMarvel's biggest comic, like
nothing else, was even close.

Speaker 5 (05:34):
Well, it was also an international hit.
It was very big in Spain, itwas very big in Italy.
But let's the attraction thatwe're going to talk about,
because this is an attractionbasis, not just Geek-O-Rama, but
I want to make sure thateverybody understands where
we're going with this.
When the journey finally getsus there, they'll go oh wow,
okay, that's our destination.

(05:55):
Kelly and I are talking aboutan attraction that is actually
linked to one of our previousepisodes.

Speaker 4 (06:01):
I was going to say that's the first attraction
we've done.
That's a replacement for one wedid previously, right.

Speaker 5 (06:07):
So, for those of you who remember our episode about
Dracula being a focal point of aattraction or multiple
attractions, this is one ofthose attractions that replaced
the Castle Dracula, universalStudios.
Yes, conan, the Barbarian,sword and Sorcery Spectacular,
stunt, spectacular, and it was astunt show like no other.

(06:27):
I think the only one that haseven come close to topping it is
Waterworld, but this was likeone of the first, and this thing
came out like gangbusters, yeah, and blew people's minds, mine
included.
Yeah, I know that I have seenit at least 10 times in person.
Yeah, sometimes multipleviewings.

(06:49):
You know, it's like you want toget on the tram and go look at
the back lot.
No, I want to watch Conan again.
That was great, yeah, you know.
So they would leave me.
Yeah, like, see it as manytimes as you want.
I remember sitting in thetheater they're clearing
everybody out.
I'd walk right out and I wouldhide in the back behind one of
the big black curtains and justlike zoom right in so I could be

(07:11):
front row and center, yeah, andI remember my eyebrows, my
forehead, hurting a little bitfrom some of the stunts which
we'll get into in a little bit.
Yeah, like, like, this was astunt show that actually caused
the audience members physicaldiscomfort and we loved it.
Yeah, you know like we loved itbecause there was real fire,
there were real military gradelasers being shot, there was

(07:34):
real muscles, real steel, realgallons and gallons of baby oil
and so much testosterone, babyoil and so much testosterone.
I think that most teenage boysbetween, and some girls too,
between the years of 1981 and1990, I think, actually grew

(07:57):
beards while sitting in thefront row.
So it's a big deal.
It's a big deal, yeah, it's abig deal.

Speaker 4 (08:03):
It's a big deal, yeah , and you know this is an
interesting point in history forthe Conan legacy.
It is also a huge turning pointfor the way that Universal
Studios did business.
But I think maybe let's lead upto that a little bit.

Speaker 5 (08:21):
Sure.
So let's talk about Conan.
Where does Conan come from?
Yes, so, conan, we have to goto.

Speaker 4 (08:28):
Texas.
We have to go to Texas, to alittle town called Cross Plains,
texas, where a young man namedRobert E Howard lived with his
father and mother, but mostlyjust with his mother.
Howard's father was a countrydoctor in this very rural part
of Texas, and so he spent a lotof time traveling quite far to

(08:52):
treat people.
This left young Robert homealone with his mother, who had
tuberculosis almost her entirelife.
Oh man, so it was an extremelydifficult situation.
Yeah, howard reportedly wasvery devoted to his mother.

(09:12):
Howard may also have been manicdepressive.
Yes, it's very difficult for usto diagnose someone who died
almost 100 years ago, right, butit seems pretty clear that he
had manic episodes and it seemspretty clear by his later death
by suicide that he haddepressive episodes.

(09:33):
Anyway, this is all very grim,but it gives us a picture of
this guy who created ConanHoward's, an interesting
character.
He's living on his own.
He's very isolated from therest of the world.
He's deeply interested inhistory, and not just one
segment of history.
He's interested in a reallybroad section of history.
He's fascinated by the newarchaeological finds that are

(09:56):
coming out in the late 20s and30s, and he's putting all this
together in his writing.
Yeah, and his writing starts tosell.
Mm-hmm, and it does okay,mostly being published in his
writing.
Yeah, and his writing starts tosell.

Speaker 5 (10:04):
Mm-hmm, and it does okay, mostly being published in
pulp magazines.
Yeah, mostly Weird Tales, Ithink.
Yeah, weird Tales, argosy, acouple of others.
Mm-hmm, yes, absolutely.

Speaker 4 (10:14):
And it's in, I believe, Weird Tales where he
first reads the work of HPLovecraft.
Good old Howard PhillipsLovecraft yeah who he becomes a
lifelong pen pal with Can youimagine being the pen pal of HP
Lovecraft?

Speaker 5 (10:33):
Can you imagine that?
I mean, first off, he was knownfor writing very long letters,
yeah, and frequently, and afterhe died they found 100,000
letters that he had written.

Speaker 4 (10:46):
Wow, yeah, I mean he was an insanely prolific letter
writer.

Speaker 5 (10:51):
I can't imagine that.
You know, I guess, as long asyou are not of any one
particular non-white race.
Because we have to understandthat.
Howard Phillips was kind of,especially throughout most of
his life.
He became a little bit morebroad-minded after his marriage,
but not much.
But he was a pretty horribleracist, pretty open and horrible

(11:16):
racist.
Yes, because he also sufferedfrom his own mental illnesses.
His mother was very controlling.
His mother wanted a girl.
His mother was very controlling, his mother wanted a girl.
His mother was obsessed withhis safety.
She would have every hard edgein the household filed down so
that way there was no chancethat he would cut himself on

(11:36):
like a table dressed him inchildren's clothes and this is
the Victorian era when he wasgrowing up.
So there was the tradition ofbasically making kids wear you
can't say a dress.
It's more like, just more like,a muumuu.
Yeah, it's like a sexlessgarment that just fits over the
kid.
But Howard Phillips Lovecraft,had to wear this until much

(12:02):
later than normal.
Yeah, because mom was like not,but also, which is weird,
whereas Robert Howard's mom isvery doting, lovecraft's mother
thought he was hideous.
She hated her son and wouldconstantly make comments about
his appearance and how hideoushe was, and so no doubt that led

(12:25):
to his neuroses.
Well, and so what?

Speaker 4 (12:27):
we end up is with two divergent points of view from
two people who became friendsthough later in life.
Later in his very short life,howard did start to become a
little bit dismissive ofLovecraft.
Yeah, a little bit dismissiveof Lovecraft, yeah, but Howard's
writing.

(12:48):
I know we think of Conan atthis point as kind of this macho
, uber-toxic masculinity thing,but that's not what Howard was
writing.
No, and we'll get to why wethink about Conan that way
shortly.
Howard, for someone who grew upin rural Texas in the 20s and
30s, was actually a little bitprogressive.
Yes, he was.
He had a lot of strong women inhis writing.

(13:11):
He had strong heroic transcharacters in his writing.
Conan when we start looking atthe stories, conan is not the
Schwarzenegger Conan.
When we first see Conan, he isa wise old king who is helping
his mapmakers fill in blanksections of the map because he's
been there.
He's something of anintellectual and he's telling

(13:35):
stories about these places he'sbeen to and there is some
question as you read thesestories as to how reliable of a
narrator he is.
So this is far more complexthan the Conan we see later.
Yeah, most of the younger sortof buffed out and Conan's
actually described as a littlebit more wiry.

(13:55):
He's more like a wolf.
Yes, the younger Conan it'sbackstory for King Conan and it
might not actually be true.
But one really fundamentaldifference that we run into
between both Howard andLovecraft is that they both sort

(14:16):
of saw a similar sort ofprogression of civilization.
They saw savagery leads intobarbarism, leads into
civilization.
Where they differed distinctlywas that Robert E Howard thought
the barbaric era was the goodone, and the reason he thought

(14:37):
that was because he thought thatwas a time when everyone was
just honest about what theywanted and needed.

Speaker 5 (14:44):
That makes sense with his point of view and how he
lived his life Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (14:48):
And he absolutely believed that once you hit
civilization like the one helived in, corruption begins
immediately.
Oh yeah.
And Lovecraft, on the otherhand, thought that civilization
was the apex of everythinghumans could do, and that was
everything we should strive for.

Speaker 5 (15:06):
I wonder if there was a third writer that hung out
with those guys.
That was like no savage.

Speaker 4 (15:11):
Yeah, savage was the cool one, that's the cool one
like these three guys, you know,yeah.

Speaker 5 (15:15):
The three musketeers of weird literature.
Maybe Robert Block, I don'tknow.
Yeah, that's a bit later he wasa pulp writer, but yes, anyway,
yeah, but you know that's a bitlater he was a pulp writer, but
yes, anyway, yeah, yeah.
So apparently there is aapocryphal tale of the creation
of Conan.
Okay, and it came out of alightning storm that hit Texas,

(15:37):
one of those summer rain storms,right it hits I grew up in
Texas, I'm familiar with those,oh yeah.
And hits I grew up in Texas, I'mfamiliar with those, oh yeah,
and at the time, this is whenRobert E Howard actually started
getting a little paranoid,because he actually thought that
members of the community wantedto kill him.
Yeah, he had definitely.
There may be actually alsosigns of schizophrenia and
paranoia is definitely a bigpart of his life.

(16:00):
So he's holed up in his home andhe can't come up with an idea
to write.
He's just like he can't sleep,he can't.
And all of a sudden, accordingto Howard, this lightning bolt
crashes and there's someonestanding in the room with him.
Wow, and it's Conan.
And Conan told him sit down andwrite.

(16:21):
I will tell you what to write,and if you don't write it the
way I like it, I'm going to cutyou in half with this ax that
I've got here.
And Howard just, and Conan issupposedly like transcribing.
He's transcribing what thisvision of Conan is telling him.
Yeah, and he typed all nightand he collapsed and the next

(16:46):
morning he woke up and he haddozens of pages written.
He just burned through it, thisinspirational moment, and he
started getting into this realphysical fitness regimen,
because he was always kind of achubby dude, but he started
getting into this physicalfitness regimen of working.
There's great pictures of himwith his shirt off and he's got
his high waisted pants on goingall the way up to his nipples
and just kind of.
but it's because he wanted tofortify himself, because he knew

(17:07):
Conan would return, so heneeded to be able to keep up
with this barbarian who wouldshow up and help him write.
I wonder how true this story isit?
Makes a great story.
I don't know if it's actuallytrue, but based upon his
penchant for hallucinations andparanoia and so forth, yeah, he
makes a great story.
I don't know how true it is.
Like I started off, this isapocryphal.

Speaker 4 (17:28):
Yeah, well, and it's interesting because I certainly
read quotes from him later inhis career where he said that
and he wrote far more than justthe Conan story, oh yeah,
solomon Cain, yeah, cull allthese great characters and he
would write like Adventure Setand the Renaissance and he was
surprisingly prolific and asmuch as I love Conan, the

(17:51):
Solomon Cain books are farsuperior.

Speaker 5 (17:53):
Great and they're amazing.
Yeah, they're so good.
If you folks, if you have notread those, get off your butts,
get your hands on some SolomonCain.
Yeah, that's good stuff.

Speaker 4 (18:09):
Okay, anyway, back to Conan.
No, no, no.
So I read quotes from Howard,like later in his career, where
when people asked him aboutConan he would say you know, I
write a whole bunch of stuff,but with these Conan stories
sometimes it just feels like I'mwriting what I'm being told to
write.
And those are actual quotesfrom Howard.
So it dovetails into somethingabout.
This story is pretty similarand he was very physically fit
as he got older.

Speaker 5 (18:30):
Oh yeah, yeah, If you look at the early there's some
early like Weird Tales covers,the Pulp Magazine covers.
When you look at theillustrations of Conan the
Barbarian, he looks more like aRoman soldier.
Yeah, wiry, thin, but he'swearing armor that looks more
like a Roman.
Yeah, he's saving some girl,beautiful girl, from a snake.

(18:51):
Uh-huh, go figure Calling DrFreud A lot of snakes in the
Hiberian age A lot of snakes.
You got to worry about thosesnakes and I'm so trying hard
not to do a James Earl Jonesimpersonation.
I don't know why you wouldresist.
I think it's the moment.
We're not there yet.
Okay, we're not ready to takeon Thulsa Doom, but yes, sadly

(19:17):
he ends his own life.
Yeah, and Conan just kind offades for a while in pop culture
.
Yeah.
And then he suddenly pops backup into the public consciousness
in the mid-60s.

Speaker 4 (19:31):
Yeah, and we start finding some people who are
interested in Conan.
We find a famous author whowe're going to hit a lot for a
little bit now, elspreg de Camp,who co-writes the first sort of
it's not a pastiche, but it's asort of Conan copy novel.

(19:54):
He writes a book called theReturn of Conan.
It does marginally well.
He kind of drops off and doeshis own things.
I actually I like de Camp'swriting Sure.
So I'm going to say somecritical things about him
shortly, but I do want to say Ilike his fantasy work.
Often, at a certain point,someone starts dealing the

(20:16):
rights to Conan.
No one's quite sure who's goingto deal with it.
Someone buys the rights andasks DeCamp to take charge of it
.
His official job is Ellsberg.
Decamp's going to become theeditor of re-releases of the
Conan stories, but there's twoproblems with that.
One is that DeCamp doesn'tthink very much of Howard's

(20:38):
writing.
Oh jeez, and has said so.
This is not something we infer.
He said yeah, the writing isoften not great.
The second thing is thatHoward's Conan work is very
fragmented.
Yes, there's no overarchingnarrative, at least not one that
holds together, because itseems to be told from the point

(20:59):
of view of an elderly kingthinking back to his adventures
and potentially lying about them.
They're all over the place,yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah, so DeCamp—.
And then there was a snake.
Yeah, wake up, listen, therewas a snake.
I tell you it's a snake.

Speaker 5 (21:19):
Bring me more mead.

Speaker 4 (21:22):
So DeCamp, he takes over the republishing of Conan
stories and to make them sort ofhold together, he starts first
off.
He starts rewriting Howardbecause he doesn't think Howard
was that great of a writer.
He's incorrect about that.
Howard is a great writer.

(21:43):
Decamp just didn't click withhim, right, which leads you to
wonder how he ended up in this.
That Right, howard is a greatwriter.
Decamp just didn't click withhim, right, which leaves you to
wonder how he ended up in thisposition.
Right, but he starts— he saidjust a job.
Yeah, he starts rewriting Howardand if you look up examples
sometimes they're shockinglydifferent.
Oh wow.
He starts to make the thingsstick together.
He starts adding stories andadding pieces of stories, but

(22:05):
it's still all billed as beingwritten by Robert E Howard.
As the series goes on and thisis the very famous series of
Conan re-releases that come outin the 70s as that goes on,
decamp just keeps taking moreand more and more liberties with
it and it becomes more DeCamp'sConan than Robert E Howard's

(22:29):
Conan, right, and most peopledon't know any better.
Really, there's not any way,there's not an internet around
to go seek out the originalstories, so they just assume
this is right.

Speaker 5 (22:40):
Right, absolutely.
And what's interesting is thisis when we get a more modern
view of Conan.
Yes, elspreg de Camp's worksare coupled with another
contributor, a guy who's bornand raised in Brooklyn.
Very important, very important.
He's one of my absolute heroesof illustration.

(23:03):
His name is Frank Frazetta.
Yes, and in 1965, they put outa compilation book called Conan
the Adventurer, and on the coveris the first time we see this
character, this massive, muscledcharacter with huge scars on

(23:24):
his arm from when somebody hadobviously he's trying to fend
off a blow, but he used his arminstead.
He's got a big scar across hisnose and he's glaring at you and
he has shoved this huge swordinto the ground and this
bare-breasted, scantily-cladwoman's hanging onto his leg
like don't you dare touch him.
And he's got this necklace withjagged teeth and there's these

(23:48):
wizards and skulls and stuff allin the sky behind him.
And he's got this fabuloushaircut with, you know, bangs
yes, you know, like this longblack hair with bangs cut in the
front.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
So you know, I want long hair, but I don't want it
to get into my eyes.
You know, and he's got theleather loincloth.

Speaker 5 (24:07):
I'd be crazy when I'm driving, yeah he's got the
fuzzy boots, he's got the hugeloincloth and everything and
this cover.
For the first time ever it solda million copies in paperback
form.
That was a record at the time.

Speaker 4 (24:23):
I think if you lived through the 70s or even the
early 80s, you know this picture.
Yeah, I mean, I certainly do.
As you describe it.
I'm like, yeah, I've seen that.

Speaker 5 (24:32):
It's the ultimate A-frame composition.
More people have ripped it offtime and time again.
The most obvious is the earlyStar Wars posters with Luke
holding the lightsaber up andPrincess Leia isn't exactly
hanging off his leg.
She's supposed to be there, butit's the same pose.
Yeah, she's got a pistol in herhand, you know, but it's still
the same outfit.

Speaker 4 (24:52):
It's very much an homage to that.

Speaker 5 (24:54):
Oh yeah, well, you know, george Lucas went to
whoever the artist was.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
I think it was actually the Brothers
Hildebrandt when they first didit, saying I really want you to
paint that so it looks like aConan book, it'd be really good.

Speaker 5 (25:08):
My bad George Lucas laugh.
The cover is so iconic.
And then Frazetta became knownfor this look.
I mean Frazetta's paintings.
I could go on and on aboutFrazetta.
I love Frazetta, as tempting asit is.
We're going to have to becareful with this, but it is
Frazetta, as far as the look ofConan, that is defined from

(25:32):
Frazetta's many paintings of him.

Speaker 4 (25:34):
Yes, and that's exactly right.
Conan is nailed down byFrazetta at that point.
He's never changed since then.

Speaker 5 (25:44):
It's the same face, yeah, Over and over again the
high cheekbones, the huge, widesquare jaw, the glaring eyes,
the slightly broken nose, thedeep set.
You know huge eyebrows, thescar across the nose Right,
these huge, you know the bigcleft chin, the works and the
big earrings sticking out of thesides of the hair with bangs.

(26:07):
Yes, it's just, it's definitive, Conan.

Speaker 4 (26:10):
And it's not antithetical to what Howard
wrote, but it's not exactly whatHoward wrote.

Speaker 5 (26:16):
No, but in the era I mean this is 1965, when it was
released.
Yeah, it is the crossover fromthe stodginess of the 50s and
early 60s and we're now crossingover into hippie town.
The anti-establishment isdefinitely kicking in.
If you're not a beatnik, you'rea hippie, if you're

(26:38):
anti-establishment.
And Conan kind of becomes afigure of recklessness, of
much-needed chaos, and so a lotof the anti-establishment
movement.
Whether you were a hippie, orwhether you were a sci-fi loving
nerd who had much more liberalintentions, or if you were part
of the extremeanti-establishment like the

(27:01):
Hell's Angels, you gravitatedtowards Conan the Barbarian,
yeah, because it kind of gavethis wish fulfillment and
fantasy element that I thinkthey all needed at that time.

Speaker 4 (27:13):
I think that's true.
And then, as these move throughthe 70s and these
Frazetta-covered books arestaying in publication the ones
that DeCamp has edited thenConan starts to represent this
kind of excess and a sexiness.
Oh yeah, yeah, which Frazettaand sex go hand in hand.

Speaker 5 (27:33):
Oh, big time, you know.
And he was unabashedly, youknow, he was never ashamed of it
.
I mean he oh yeah.
Here's the thing about FrankFrazetta Very much like Howard.
He was an athlete first,frazetta very much like Howard.
He was an athlete first.
Frazetta actually was a modelfor a lot of guys, like Arnie
Fenner and a lot of these otherpeople.
If you see pictures of him inhis 20s and 30s, he looks like

(27:54):
Tarzan.
He is just cut and ripped.
There's a couple of pictures ofhim in a leather, loincloth,
tarzan style.
And you look at him and you gowow, yeah, tarzan style.
And you look at him and you gowow.
Now I know why he knows everymuscle in the body, because very
rarely did he ever use any sortof photographic reference.
It would just come straight outof his brain onto the canvas.
My favorite Conan painting isnot the A-frame Conan the

(28:17):
Adventurer.
It's one that he was notoriousfor this.
His wife, ellie, actually stolethe keys from him for his own
gallery because he was notoriousfor sneaking in the middle of
the night and grabbing one ofthe paintings and fixing it I'm
using giant finger quotes fixingit.
So there came a point whereEllie went Frank, don't get no

(28:40):
more key, he ain't getting nokey in there.
He's going to go in there andchange a Tarzan or something.
Get out of there, frank.
No, ain't get no key in there.
He's got to go in there andchange a Tarzan or something.
Get out of there, frank.
No, you're not going in there.
Ellie Frazetta bless her.
She was the business arm of theFrazetta fortune, yeah, and she
knew the legacy.
She was the reason why Franknever gave publishers his

(29:01):
original art.
He always kept his original art.
Gave publishers his originalart.
He always kept his original art.
Oh, because he knew like yeah,I'm only getting like anywhere
from $500 to $1,200.
The Friends of the.

Speaker 6 (29:17):
Magic Gathering is coming to the Disneyland Resort
this May 3rd and 4th 2025.
Spend the weekend with some ofyour favorite podcasters, along
with other listeners as we enjoythe Disneyland Resort.
As a special treat this year,we're having a special Saturday
night dining event featuring TVdinners inside Howard Johnson's

(29:40):
spectacular tribute toDisneyland's former Monsanto
Plastics House of the Future theHouse of the Retro Future Suite
.
After dinner, peter Overstreetand Kelly McCubbin from the
Lowdown on the Plus Up podcastwill be recording a special
episode of their show live frominside the House of the Retro

(30:02):
Future Suite.
That's May 3rd and 4th 2025 atthe Disneyland Resort.
Visit friendsofthemagiccom formore information.

Speaker 5 (30:12):
Movie posters For a long time in the 60s, the movie
poster genre that he created andmade famous and actually wound
up getting copied by a lot ofother artists, including some
great comic legends like JackDavis.
Yeah, he started the Chase Meposter, as it was called.
Okay, he did.

(30:33):
What's New Pussycat?
Oh, yeah, with all these peoplechasing after Peter Sellers and
that kind of stuff.
Yeah, and Ringo.
And then he did the Night theyRaided Minsky's.
Yeah, he did After the Fox.

Speaker 4 (30:45):
I know exactly what you're talking about as soon as
you say these oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (30:50):
Those are all Frank.
Wow, when you see After the Fox, go on Google Image Search
folks who are listening and lookup movie poster of After the
Fox, the rendering of the femalelead in that movie.
You look at that and you go, ohmy god, it's the Egyptian
princess that Frank did laterfor a cover of Eerie Magazine
for Warren Publications.
It's the same face.

(31:10):
You go, that's a Frazetta girl.
You see her in the film and yougo hacha, baby, she is a
Frazetta girl, come to life.
And it's like no wonder, andit's because she was a major
influence on him.
And it's like no wonder, andit's because she was a major
influence on him Even though hewas married to Ellie and had a
great time.
He would just store that lookand go.
That is what a sexy exoticwoman looks like.
Is that particular Italianactress?

(31:32):
And so they all subsequentlykind of looked like her.
Huh.

Speaker 4 (31:36):
So, interesting.

Speaker 5 (31:37):
He kept going until he tried to get a job doing book
covers.
He's like I got sick of doingall the cartoony stuff.
Jack Davis ripped me off forMad Mad, mad Mad World with the
Chase Me stuff and he finallybrought in his work to some
publisher and they said this isnot what we're looking for.

Speaker 4 (31:59):
Yeah, and he got really ticked.
It's so bizarre to think ofanyone turning down Frank
Frazetta as a book cover artist.

Speaker 5 (32:07):
Oh yeah, I know right .
And so they turned him down.
He was walking home in Brooklynand apparently he was so mad he
tore apart his neighbor'spicket fence with his bare hands
, oh dear.
He ripped it up and smashed itand his neighbor was like what
the hell are you doing?
I got turned down.
He was so mad and he realizedwhat he was doing.
He's like I'm sorry, I'll payfor it later.

(32:27):
So now he's like great, nowwhat am I going to do?
And he got home and he slammed acanvas down and he just started
painting a self-portrait.
Look it up it's.
You can see the rage in hishazel eyes looking straight at
you.
And that portrait is the firsttime he ever really started
playing hard with oils thatRosetta style of oil paints

(32:50):
where you really get that.
Look it's painterly.
And he went I'm onto somethinghere.
And that's when he realizedthat power, that force of
painting became apparent.
That portrait actually helpedhim land the job for that Conan
book cover.
Wow, the minute he did thatbook cover, that was it.
And it actually started a wholefranchise of fantasy arts.

(33:13):
Yeah, fantasy illustration justshot through the roof.

Speaker 4 (33:17):
Yeah, all of a sudden you get your Bruno Bezettas and
your—.

Speaker 5 (33:20):
Boris Vallejo, ken Kelly there were so many of them
.
My hero, michael Whelan Yep,and a lot of them very famous
names would actually getapproached by other publishers
saying so we got this fantasynovel we need to put out Can you
paint like Frank Frazetta?

(33:42):
And some were good at it andsome were not yeah and some were
good at it and some were not,and there were like Ken Kelly
was actually a close follower ofFrazetta, but you can totally
tell that they're just, they'retrying to be Frazetta, yeah, and
especially when you look at the70s magazines Eerie and Creepy
from Warren Publications,frazetta did some of the early
covers but then as soon as hewas like I'm off doing other

(34:03):
things, I'm going to make somereal money, even though some of
his covers for that were some ofthe best paintings he ever did.
They're extraordinary.
But there was a lot of copycatsand that irked him like
nobody's business.
And there's one more personthat I want to bring up real

(34:26):
quick, who's also from Brooklyn,from Brownsville Ralph Bakshi,
whose big thing was animation.
He's the man who actually savedanimation twice Disney and so
forth in 68, 69, we're actuallythinking about shutting down the
animation department andbecause of Ralph Bakshi's Fritz
the Cat, everybody brought backanimation.
And then when animation tookanother header and because of
Ralph Bakshi's Fritz the Cat,everybody brought back animation
.
Yeah, and then when animationtook another header once more,

(34:49):
this is going to be connected towhat we're talking about in
many, many ways.
Yeah, it was taking a header inthe 80s, because most cartoons
for children at the time wereactually extended commercials
for toys.
And so Ralph Bakshi came out ofthe woodwork once more going
I'm going to save animation, I'mjust going to make this happen.
And so he hired a bunch ofnobodies who are now some of the
biggest names in animationtoday Bruce Timm, john Griff,

(35:11):
lucy.
As much of a creep as he is, hewas actually sorry, john, but
you are.
I love Brandon Stimpy.
I hate the fact that he wassuch a creep.
Yeah, I will state that opinionquite clearly.
But he hired all these peopleto do the New Adventures of
Mighty Mouse.
Yeah, and that changedchildren's television.

(35:33):
They got rid of the commercialsand made cartoons funny again.
Yeah, I love.

Speaker 4 (35:37):
New Adventures of Mighty Mouse.
I have some of them.

Speaker 5 (35:40):
Yeah, so our story for Conan is involved with Ralph
and Frank and, of all people,oliver Stone.

Speaker 4 (35:51):
Okay, I don't know any of this, so keep going, okay
.

Speaker 5 (35:56):
So what happens is is Ralph puts together in the late
70s, he puts together aanimated version of JRR
Tolkien's the Lord of the Ringsyeah, I love that movie.
And we had had fantasy movieslike Jason the Argonaut, the
Seventh Voyage of Sinbad yeah,but we had not had the full-on

(36:20):
tits and lizards, as Frank wouldcall it, crazy sword and sandal
, sword and sorcery type ofmovie.
Oh wait quick interjection.

Speaker 4 (36:28):
Tolkien was asked at one point about books that he
liked.
Oh, yeah, please.
And he had read Howard Conanand liked it.
Oh, that's cool I didn't knowthat that's awesome and he was
not someone to give praiselightly.

Speaker 5 (36:44):
No, absolutely that's really cool yeah, imagine.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
Frodo beckons you must take the river to
Khazad-dûm and take the ring toKhazad-dûm.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
By life or by death, I will serve you and you have my
bow.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
And my axe, yes, and you have my sword.
By crumb by crumb, we will getthat ring to Mount Doom.
Come on, do it.
Come on, I'm right here.
Throw the precious into thevolcano Conan.
There are seven members, forthe seven members of the
fellowship, for the seven ridersof the Nazgul One, two, three,

(37:28):
I think you're right.

Speaker 5 (37:34):
Oh God, the Conan Fellowship of the Ring crossover
, oh so good Begging to happennow.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
Let me get all of these fantasy characters mixed
together.

Speaker 5 (37:44):
Anyway.

Speaker 4 (37:48):
So Oliver Stone, ralph Bakshi and Frank Rosetta.

Speaker 6 (37:51):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (37:52):
So here, strap in, because this is great.
Ralph did an animated versionof Lord of the Rings and he did
it in the only way that he knewhe could do an epic movie like
that.
He utilized a technique by MaxFleischer called rotoscoping.
Yeah, and rotoscoping, forthose who do not know, is a

(38:16):
special technique in which youuse live-action footage and
project frame-by-framelive-action footage onto a
semi-opaque piece of glass thatyou can then trace drawings onto
.
So that way, frame-by-frame,you're capturing natural motion
of a figure that is moving, yeah, and then you can redraw your

(38:39):
character on top of that.
Max Fleischer famously doingthis with his Cab Calloway
cartoons, like Minnie theMoocher.
It had been used by Disneysparingly.
You can see it very definitelyused in Snow White, oh for sure.

Speaker 4 (38:55):
Interestingly enough, they still deny it.
The official word from Disneyis we never used rotoscoping.
And the official word from meis yes, you did.
Yes, you did Give me a break.

Speaker 5 (39:05):
No way you know.
To quote Ralph, he's likethere's no way you could do Lord
of the Rings by hand.
You can't, you can't possiblydo it.
You have to be able to get theaction With all the horses and
the armies that are out there.
You've got to do it right.

Speaker 4 (39:20):
It's very hard to animate humans, humans that look
like humans.
Strangely enough, yes,rotoscoping comes into play.
It comes in real handy whenyou're trying to get human
motion.
The thing I love about Bakshi,and particularly in that Lord of
the Rings adaptation, is he'sthe first animator that's not
hiding it.

(39:40):
Oh yeah, he's just like.
I don't care if you know thatI'm drawing over live-action
footage, I am yeah, and he'sproud of it.

Speaker 5 (39:47):
But they had Mike Ploog and several other
illustrators come in and designcharacters yeah.
Then what they would do is theywould find actors that were
close enough physically to thosecharacters yeah, and to be the
physical representations forrotoscoping.
Meanwhile, they hired a bunchof voice actors.

(40:08):
John Hurt is in it, yeah, heplays Aragorn the Rolling Stones
.

Speaker 4 (40:13):
Some of them were almost in it for a time, oh yeah
.
Yeah, I mean, mick Jaggerwanted to be Frodo in it.
He plays Aragorn the RollingStones.
Some of them were almost in itfor a time, oh yeah.

Speaker 5 (40:16):
Yeah, I mean Mick Jagger wanted to be Frodo in it.
There's a bunch of people thathad done a BBC audio radio
version a couple of years beforeMany of those voice actors
returned.
So the guy who plays Boromir inLord of the Rings was from the
radio version, as was the guywho played Gollum Interesting, I

(40:37):
didn't know that.
And one of the more famouspeople is Anthony Daniels of
C-3PO.
Fame plays Legolas Interesting.

Speaker 4 (40:47):
There's actually a weird lot of crossover between
Star Wars and Batshu movies.
Oh yeah, War.

Speaker 5 (40:52):
Camels and Wizards.
You know that kind of stuffWizards.
It was originally going to becalled War Wizards, but George
had me change the name.
Actual quote, so true, so whatthe process worked is they had
recorded all the audio.
Then the actors who were goingto be the physical actors would
get dressed up in grayscale andblack and white makeup, costumes

(41:14):
and makeup.
And they would costumes andmakeup yeah, and they would have
to lip sync yeah, Because JohnHurt is not the same guy who's
physically being Aragorn, buthe's got that great, gravelly
John Hurt voice.
Yeah, so they did the movie andit cost him I think it cost him
$7 million.
Yeah, and Saul Zents, who wasthe producer, had put up the

(41:35):
money for it and that wasn'teven adequate enough for him to
actually finish the entireseries of books.
Yeah, the movie ends halfwaythrough the Two Towers, yeah,
and famously it leaves peoplegoing what Right?
And of all people, Rankin andBass finish it with their really
horrible Return of the King.
I know, Although I do like thesong when there's a Whip,

(41:57):
there's a Way.
Where there's a Whip, there's aWay.
Yeah, that's the best part.
Yeah, but the rest of it you'rejust like oh God, this is such
a so it cost him $7 million todo, and he was burned out at
this point and he was lookingfor another project.
And out of nowhere comes thescreenwriter named Oliver Stone,
who has been hired by anItalian film producer, mostly

(42:23):
focused on exploitation films.
So what year are we talkingabout here?
This is 79.
But he was approached and hewrote the first drafts of Conan
the Barbarian for this Italianmovie producer, and the Italian
movie producer's name is DinoDillerentes.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
Yes, he's bigger than life, a guy.
He talk like this.
He's Dino Dillerentes, and Dinosays we are going to make the
Conan the Barbarian movie.
We get Oliver Stone to make thescreenplay and he's a big guy.
Raffaella, you help me withthis screenplay.
He is Oliver Stone.

Speaker 5 (42:59):
And, by all accounts, Oliver Stone's screenplay was
like full of huge, vast oceansof mutants and fighting and
battle with.
I mean it was Awesome yeah.
It was straight out of thecomics and De Laurentiis was
inspired by the Marvel comics,mm-hmm Comics that were coming
overseas.

(43:19):
Yeah.
Of Conan the Barbarian yeah,drawn beautifully by John
Buscema and John Romita Sr andall those great.
I mean, I love so great theBuscema Conan.
Yeah, it's like, oh yeah, somegreat poses and some great.
You just see the rage Like itcomes into a close second to
Frazetta as far as that powerbehind Conan artistically.

(43:41):
Yeah, so he needed.
But this was too much money.
Yeah, they looked at it and,like Oliver Stone's original
draft was just too much.
So De.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
Narentes had to put off the.
I had to put off the making ofthis movie.

Speaker 5 (43:57):
So he calls on he goes.

Speaker 2 (44:00):
Who does the fantasy?
Who does the fantasy movies?

Speaker 5 (44:04):
So he paid a visit to Ralph Bakshi, yeah, and Bakshi,
you know, was like yeah, okay,we'll just finish Lord of the
Rings and we can do this.
And it wasn't making a lot ofmoney, but Dino didn't care.
He's like you make the movie,make it big.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
We have this star.
He's in this movie, PumpingIron, and it's a good movie.
If it got a bigger muscle it'dbe perfect.
I do actually love that movie.

Speaker 4 (44:29):
It's pretty great.
Yeah, it's fascinating, butback then.

Speaker 5 (44:31):
But Bakshi was like Lou Ferrigno, you know no the
other one.
No, the other one, yeah, theone who won, you know, but it
was Arnold Schwarzenegger, andmy accents are going to be
really wild because we're goingto go from Austrian to Italian
and Brooklyn really fast here,all right, so apparently there
was a meeting between RalphBakshi, dino De La Rente and

(44:55):
Arnold Schwarzenegger, andSchwarzenegger, like Bakshi
being a fan and a friend ofFrank Frazetta saying so, I want
to make him more likeFrazetta's Conan, where he's
more like a wolf.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
You know he's powerful, but he's lithe.

Speaker 5 (45:11):
He's able to move really fast.
He's a warrior, he's reallygood.
And in comes Arnold.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
Schwarzenegger Arnold walked in.
Why does such a little guy needa giant desk like you, Dino?

Speaker 5 (45:23):
He's this gigantic.
Apparently he had this huge,like 10-foot-wide desk to sit
behind, but Dino is like 5'2 orsomething short, so he just
looks like this little antbehind this giant desk.
So Arnold immediately startspeeing on trees and Bakshi can't
like this guy can't talk.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
He's what he's doing over here with the giant desk.

Speaker 5 (45:45):
He hadn't had his teeth straightened yet.
He was still very muchstruggling with the English
language as an actor, especiallysince his latest hit was
Hercules Goes to New York.

Speaker 6 (45:54):
Yes, when he's billed as.

Speaker 5 (45:56):
Arnold Strong playing second fiddle to the wimpy but
entertaining Arnold Stang.
Arnold Stang got top billing onHercules Goes to New York.
On the original posters youknow it's not something.

Speaker 4 (46:13):
If I was Arnold Stang , it would not be something I'd
be proud of.

Speaker 5 (46:15):
Well, that's not too bad.
I'm actually acting with ArnoldSchwarzenegger.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
With Arnold Stang over here.
I'm not doing some Mad.

Speaker 5 (46:24):
World.
Apparently, bakshi just couldlike I can't understand
Schwarzenegger and he's giant,he can't move, he's just too
muscular, it's not going to work, I'm not going to.
Well, apparently, you know,this is what I want with Conan
and, like Arnold, apparentlyjust sat there kind of soaked it
in, and the way Bakshi talksabout it, he figures like as
soon as the door closes.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
I no work with Bakshi .
He no, you know.
He no know what he doing.
You know that kind of stuff.

Speaker 5 (46:56):
So they were looking Schwar Schwarzenegger just
became Frankenstein.
You know, bakshi didn't reallycare for Schwarzenegger, so it
wouldn't be until about a yearor so later that Dino De
Laurentiis would actually callhim again.
Bakshi Didn't get him Conan,but he did give it the
director's job to a screenwriterand film director who had come
out with a movie called the Windand the Lion with Sean Connery.

(47:16):
Oh yeah, his name is JohnMilius.
Yes, and John Milius, boy howdy.
This is a guy who wanted to beDavid Lean.
Yeah, or John Ford, yeah.
Like this guy is about bravado,he's bigger than life.
Yes, he helped Francis FordCoppola on Apocalypse.
Now Right, he wrote the USSIndianapolis speech in Jaws.

(47:40):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (47:42):
Yeah, because he's one of those kind of scrappy
filmmakers that came out of theUCLA process.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
Out of that film school.

Speaker 5 (47:48):
Yeah, yep, and apparently he got along well.
Can I just interject?

Speaker 4 (48:00):
Yeah, please, he directed the.

Speaker 5 (48:02):
Evil Knievel.
Biopic with George HamiltonGeorge.

Speaker 4 (48:05):
Hamilton, oh my God, as Evil Knievel.
Wow Like why they didn't justget Evil.

Speaker 5 (48:11):
Knievel, I don't know .
He's probably recovering fromhis jump across the Grand Canyon
.
Yes, wow, he's probablyrecovering from his jump across
the grand.
Yes, wow, yeah, so they hiredjohn melius and melius and dino
got along famously.
Yeah, um, melius just got it,but he immediately changed the
script.
He goes we got to keep thebudget down.
Yeah, let's make it more aboutwhat is going on right now, and
what was big at the time wasjonestown Cults Death cults.

(48:37):
Everyone's into death cults.
Well, it's kind of it.
And if you watch Conan, that'swhat it kind of is.
It's a parable against cults,yeah, with Conan being this like
kid who gets harmed by a cultand seeks revenge Right, but
actually frees a whole nationfrom this really awful cult of
Thulsa Doom, right.
And so in the casting they hadSchwarzenegger, they got Max von

(49:00):
Sydow as King Osric the usurper.
What daring, what arrogance youknow like he's so good as this
creepy old Viking guy.

Speaker 4 (49:11):
Von Sydow is the greatest actor willing to do
anything.
Oh yeah, Absolutely.
I mean, he's one of thegreatest film actors of all time
.
Oh yeah, and he was willing todo anything.
I mean, he's in Strange Brew,for heaven's sakes.

Speaker 5 (49:29):
And so, yeah, absolutely.
And of course, fresh off of theGreat White Hope is James Earl
Jones, yeah, and also off ofStar Wars, because he's got that
fabulous basso profundo voice.
But he steals the movie asThulsa Doom.
Anytime he's on the screen, youare captivated by those
fabulous green eyes of his andthose costumes, which are very

(49:53):
much like.
Milius was a big fan ofFrazetta, so at least they would
talk to Frank, and so they useda lot of the look of Frank
Frazetta in that, apparently,the studio actually had posters
everywhere that were FrankFrazetta's.
Oh Going.
Make it look like this.
Yeah, make it look like this,make it look like this.
That's so funny and the movieis just full of it's.

(50:14):
A Frazetta movie come to life,yeah.

Speaker 4 (50:18):
It's intense.
Yeah, it's so much fun and itreally moves it.
Just it seems smarter than itought to be.

Speaker 5 (50:27):
And there were several other factors.
You also have the fantasticscore of Basil Polidorus.
Yeah, the Anvil of Crom is oneof my favorite movie themes ever
.
You have great special effects,great fight sequences, and here
I need to take a quick littlething, because there's a
parallel path that we now hit,okay.
Okay, and our parallel pathwe're going to go in and out of

(50:50):
this.
Yeah, let me ask you a question.
And for my students who listento this show, don't say nothing.
Yeah, kelly doesn't know thisone.
You guys have all heard thisone, but Kelly hasn't heard it.
Okay, in the late 60s, early70s, name the first major sci-fi

(51:13):
epic that spawned actionfigures, play sets, birthday
serving trays, masks, underwear,pajamas and sleep covers and
any type of merchandise youcould think of.
Name that sci-fi franchise.
And here's a hint A sequel justrecently came out In what?

Speaker 4 (51:34):
period, again the 70s , in the 70s.
So I'm going to say it's notStar Wars, good for you.

Speaker 5 (51:43):
A lot of people go to Star Wars, but it's not Star
Wars, yeah, so, toys, it was alicensing phenomenon in our
childhood.

Speaker 4 (51:54):
Really, yeah, I don't know.
I give up.
Planet of the Apes oh yeah, apemania and I had a bunch of
those toys.

Speaker 5 (52:03):
Oh yeah, I had.
You know, like you watch theold TV commercials, there's a
great one on YouTube where,because it's filmed on film, the
film, the sprockets are off.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
Yeah, so you got the, you know the 2001 theme you
know, the astronaut who haslanded into the future and you
can get zero.
The female scientist, cornelius, dr Zayas and the gorilla.

Speaker 5 (52:31):
Anticlimactic right.

Speaker 4 (52:33):
I, I, I.
I want to just say this foryeahlimactic right.
I want to just say this, andpeople will completely disagree
until they think about it for alittle while the original Planet
of the Apes series, greatestscience fiction film series of
all time.
I believe that I honestly do Ithink the first one's a
masterpiece.
I think the next like three ofthem are really good and the

(52:55):
last one's a masterpiece.
I think the next three of themare really good and the last
one's not so great.

Speaker 5 (53:02):
But can you think of any?
You don't like Paul Williams asan orangutan I do actually.

Speaker 4 (53:07):
As the reader of the law.
I don't think there's any filmseries that is that consistently
strong, any science fictionfilm series that consistently
strong.

Speaker 5 (53:17):
I will actually go along with that too, because I
actually think it was also boldin its choices.
They were bold in theirwhat-ifs, like what if Cornelius
and Zira actually retroact,like they find the spaceship and
then they go through time again?
Yeah, only this time they goback in time and we're going to
do it kind of as a comedy, yeah,and it's going to be a

(53:38):
commentary on celebrity withRicardo Montalban, right, and
it's like what?
Yeah, and it's going to end ona bum note, like they're all
going to die at the end, right,but it's a comedy, yeah.

Speaker 4 (53:49):
Like what yeah, yeah.
And then what if we make thenext one about race riots?

Speaker 5 (53:55):
Like what yeah, and really call it on it Like it's
not just subtle, Like it is notsubtle.
No, it's so good it's a racewar movie.
It absolutely is.
It's so good it's really harsh.

Speaker 4 (54:08):
It's really terrifying.
The recent versions they've,because they had to cut some of
the blood out of it because itwas so over the top Recent
versions they added it back in.
I don't know that it makes thatmuch of a difference, but it is
still a kind of terrifying film.

Speaker 5 (54:27):
Yeah, there's a lot to it.
It's, and they people thoughtso back then.
And so when ape mania that'swhat it was called hit, you
could find advertisements in theback of famous monsters.
For you know, get your Planetof the Apes masks.
Yes, get your Planet of theApes pinball machine.

Speaker 4 (54:46):
I had a Dr Zayas action figure.

Speaker 5 (54:48):
Oh yeah, yeah, I had a Zero and Cornelius, because I
had a crush on Zero.
Yeah, kim Hunt.

Speaker 4 (54:53):
Cornelius, you know Kim Hunter Academy Award winner
Kim Hunter, kim Hunter.

Speaker 5 (55:00):
You're just so darned ugly.
But there's a reason I bringthis up is because that's the
first time that licensing hitsbig for toys Now there have been
licensed toys in the past, butnothing to the level of Planet
of the Apes, yes, and it wentpardon my expression, ape shit,
and it really made the toymanufacturers think hard.

(55:22):
So I'm going to come in and outof this action figure
discussion here because thisstory has some very interesting
twists and turns.
Yeah and yes, we haven't evengotten to the universal
attraction yet.

Speaker 4 (55:35):
Let us not forget.

Speaker 5 (55:36):
We're pretty close, but you need to know this,
because if you don't, none ofthis is going to make sense.
Yeah, okay, so I'm going to goeven further back.

Speaker 4 (55:47):
Oh no, we're slipping away from the attraction.

Speaker 1 (55:50):
Oh, my God.

Speaker 5 (55:52):
You maniacs.
You let Peter have a microphone.
Oh damn, you all to hell.
So we go back in time and we goback to the early teens,
19-teens, I think it was 1914.
Whoa, okay, okay, wow, whiplash.

(56:14):
Oh yeah, in 1914, I believethis is the correct date.
We'll correct it if it is not.
There were a couple ofdesperados who decided to rob a
train because it had goldbullion aboard, uh-huh, and they
dynamited the tracks.

(56:34):
The train came to a stop.
All right, everybody, it's astick-up.
They got the guns.
They got the tracks.
The train came to a stop.
All right, everybody, it's astick-up.
They got the guns.
They got the masks.
They get on board.
They robbed the wrong train,okay, and all they got was $42,
a watch and a bottle of whiskey,okay.
But because they had stopped atrain which was a federal

(56:54):
offense, a posse was sent outafter them with federal marshals
.
Okay, but because they hadstopped a train which was a
federal offense, a posse wassent out after them with federal
marshals.
Okay, they got cornered in abarn and one of them, a guy
named Elmer McCurdy, took itupon himself to take the first
shot and started a gunfightwhich was immediately lost.
Yeah, with Elmer McCurdy, almostimmediately getting shot right

(57:15):
through the lungs and heart Down.
He went All over 40 bucks and abottle of whiskey and a watch
yeah, so probably one of theleast successful and one of the
stupidest bank robbers ever.
Yeah, his body gets embalmed bythe local coroner slash

(57:35):
undertaker yeah, but no oneclaims the body.
So this undertaker, who's gonethrough all the trouble to
embalm this body, decides youknow what?
I can make?
A couple of bucks, mm-hmm.
So he puts the embalmed corpseinto a coffin yeah, props it up
in the back, behind a curtain,in the back of his shop, mm-hmm.
And for five cents you couldsee the body.
Yeah, behind a curtain in theback of his shop, and for five

(57:56):
cents you could see the body,the dead body of a real crook, a
real criminal.
And he had his rifle set up nextto him and he's sitting in the
coffin all stiff and weird.
Come and see Elmer McCurdy.
And he made money for threeyears displaying the body of
Elmer McCurdy.
Okay, now, as bodies do, theydon't always last so well.
So he was getting kind of tiredof this.
Now, as bodies do, they don'talways last so well.
So he was getting kind of tiredof this and luckily two

(58:17):
gentlemen, the Pattersonbrothers, show up and they say
we're the long lost brother,that's our brother.
What about McCurdy?
He changed his name, that's hisalias.
You know, elmer's our brother,so we'll take his body, we'll
make sure he gets a decentburial.
No, they don't bury the body,uh-huh, they are in fact carny

(58:37):
owners and they display his bodyin a tent.
Come and see the famous bankrobber, elmer McCurdy, shot
through the heart by federalmarshals, and he takes around
the country for a decade.
Wow, and then his body.
So Elmer McCurdy goes on thisjourney as a corpse all over
America.
His body is actually used topromote movies like Narcotic and

(59:01):
Reefer Madness, Like this canhappen to you.
This actual dead body is beingused as a promo item.
It's in wax museums, hauntedhouses, until it finally, in the
50s, winds up in alaugh-in-the-dark attraction out
at the Pike in Long Beach,california.

(59:23):
Yeah, and it's used as a propin a haunted house.
You know, good oldlaugh-in-the-dark, you know dark
ride.
Yeah, and it's hanging from anoose.
So in the 1970s, when thePlanet of the Ape mania is going
on, there's another mania withanother licensing phenomenon
Steve Austin, the six milliondollar man.

(59:43):
And they're filming an episodein the Laugh in the Dark and one
of the stagehands goes can wemove that body out of the way?
It's in the shot, it'soverwhelming.
So the stagehand grabs it andthe arm breaks off and he goes
oh shit, I broke it.
So he goes outside to get someglue and that's when he's in the

(01:00:04):
daylight he notices oh, that'sreal bone.
The cops are called, everybodyfreaks out.
The news is called in it's nutsand everybody goes who is Elmer
McCurdy?
And so people learn who ElmerMcCurdy actually was.
Finally, the town where he wasfrom claims his body, buries him

(01:00:24):
in his birth town yeah, andthen buries him under six feet
of concrete over his grave.
So no one will ever pull upElmer.

Speaker 4 (01:00:32):
McCurdy again.

Speaker 5 (01:00:34):
Now, why am I talking about this?
Why are you talking about this?

Speaker 6 (01:00:37):
I'm going to explain.

Speaker 5 (01:00:38):
Because there's a young boy from Long Beach,
california, named Mark Taylor.
Okay, okay, mark Taylor growsup going to Laugh in the Dark
and is terrified by this onecorpse hanging.
He goes there's something aboutit.
They apparently had painted himwith blacklight paint, so his
face was green and yellow, witha purple light around him, and

(01:01:00):
it just terrified Mark Taylor,and so he always went.
Man, someday I'm going to designsomething off of that.
You know like I always rememberthat it's just the creepiest
thing I've ever seen.
Yeah, let's jump back to the1980s.
Universal Studios is thedistributor of Conan the
Barbarian.
Did they distribute it?
Or did 20th Century Fox?
20th Century Fox, I apologize.

(01:01:21):
So the 20th Century Fox hasalready established a record of
having— Actually it wasco-distributed by both of them.
Okay, perfect, you're both right, okay, cool.
Yeah, well, 20th Century Fox,as a note, already had a record
of putting out movies includingPlanet of the Apes, yep and
Kenner.
The toy company had made a tonof money off of the Star Wars

(01:01:42):
franchise yeah, I think it was.
Mattel actually made the $6million man.
It was also known for HotWheels and Barbie yeah, but they
were looking for an.
Mattel was looking for anopportunity to get in on this
licensing gig, like we're makingmoney off of Mr Potato Head and
all these—we've got to get inon this.
So they went to Universal andsaid we want to make action

(01:02:03):
figures based off what movieshave you got?
Yeah, well, we got Conan theBarbarian, frazetta yes, we're
in.
And they started designingprototypes.
Yeah, big muscular figures withbig beefy arms and thighs,
little horned helmet, right outof Frazetta's painting of Conan
the Destroyer yeah, a big axeand a big sword of power.

(01:02:24):
It just looks amazing.
And then the toy companyactually saw clips from Conan
the Barbarian, with all of thebare breasts and blood and
violence and real dark,nihilistic themes and cults and
all this kind of stuff.
They went we cannot put out atoy off of this.

(01:02:45):
Yeah, we saw what the sales ofthe alien action figure were
like from before LBJ or whoeverput that out.
Yeah, ljn, sorry, not LBJ.
Imagine the president, I'm nowowning a toy company.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Now come over here and look at my appendix scar.

Speaker 5 (01:03:03):
But the alien action figure did not do well and that
was an R-rated film.
It's like we can't put toys outfor an R-rated film for kids,
right?
That's insanity.
Yeah, so they had to go back tothe drawing board.
Meanwhile the movie is making.
Conan is making tons of money.
Yeah, it's a blockbuster.
It's a blockbuster hit withlike huge gangs.
You know who was like one oftheir main audiences of return

(01:03:25):
visitors was the Hells Angels.
Yeah, they were big on going tosee these films.
It was like a cult followingwhere, like you know, motorcycle
clubs were like we're going togo see Conan, yeah, like, let's
go, and so like motorcycleswould be parked all up and down
the block going to see Conan.
And meanwhile Mattel is likedesperate because they've wasted

(01:03:45):
all this time designing stuff.
So Mark Taylor comes out, hegoes and some of his fellow
designers.
They go home one weekend andthey make several prototypes.
One is this prototype that'skind of ripped off of Boba Fett.
It's got the Boba Fett-lookinghelmet, it's red and white, and
it's got this big helmet andhe's got a rocket pack on, he's
got a laser gun.

(01:04:05):
It's like, okay, rocket man.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
There we go.

Speaker 5 (01:04:08):
Okay, yeah, there's our little plug.
Be sure to go back to our lastepisode.
Yeah, check out our twoepisodes on the Rocket man of
Disneyland.
Yes, okay, anyway, but that'sunrelated.
Anyway.
And then another guy theyliterally just popped the head
off and they put a tank on topof it.
It was the Tank man.
No joke, now they're not eventrying.
And then they grabbed theirprototype and added some fur,

(01:04:29):
kind of changed the look so itdidn't look like Schwarzenegger,
yeah.
And they said, okay, here'sthis barbarian character.
Yeah, what are we going to callit?
I don't know.
Call it He-Man.
They put it in front of testaudience kids.
They said which of these actionfigures do you want to play
with?
Right off the bat, yeah, everysingle kid went.
The one in the middle, he-man,yeah.

(01:04:51):
And thus was born He-Man andthe Masters of the Universe.
Right, mark Taylor was thecharacter designer for all of
those figures, that first run ofaction figures for He-Man and
the Masters of the Universe.
He based Skeletor off of ElmerMcCurdy directly.

(01:05:14):
So Bank Robber became one ofthe best villains ever.
Yeah, fantasy french yeah,remember, elma mccurdy was the
influence of skeletor.
Until we meet again.
You know it's, it's yeah, sothat's the.
That's the origin of skeletorand he-man's and the masters of
the universe, because it was a.
You know, it was all based offof Conan being too violent.

(01:05:35):
That's insane, isn't that?

Speaker 4 (01:05:37):
wild.
Yeah, and it is interestingbecause I think back and I'm
like Conan was a phenomenon andI know there were no toys Like
none that I saw.

Speaker 5 (01:05:44):
No, no, no, no.
They tried so, yeah, so He-Manand the Masters of the Universe
became the thing, and rightabout that time.
Now we get to the actual sequel, which is not Conan the
Destroyer yeah, I consider thatConan number three.
Yeah, really, conan two is oursword and sorcery spectacular

(01:06:06):
stunt show.
Yes, because if you watch itcarefully, some of the
development of that attractionmust have happened concurrently
to the early stages of the Conanaction figures, because it
begins with a wimpy little guycoming down on the rope with Red

(01:06:28):
Sonja.
Yeah, as the two charactersthey start off as like wimpy
little thieves.
Yeah, red Sonja is, she's thebuffer of the two, like he's
actually the sidekick of RedSonja.
Yeah, and Conan goes throughthis whole thing and I forget
the name of the villain of thestory.
But the evil wizard comesaround.
There's like a good wise wizard, and the whole time there's a

(01:06:50):
sword embedded in ice, yeah, andhe grabs a hold of it and he
says I have the power, yes, andtransforms into Conan and it's
like wait a minute.

Speaker 4 (01:07:03):
And that's the catchphrase from He-Man.

Speaker 5 (01:07:05):
Yeah, the universe.
So to me, I think that therewas some sort of crossover that
went let's just not say nothing,just leave it in there, it's
great.

Speaker 4 (01:07:13):
Well, and you know what's interesting?
Yeah, let's just not saynothing, just leave it in there.
It's great.
Well, and you know what'sinteresting?
Yeah, please, callius is thename of the wizard Callius, but
what's really interesting is theguy that designed this
attraction, gary Goddard.

Speaker 5 (01:07:24):
Ah, yes, later directed the first Masters of
the Universe movie, thecrossovers.
Oh, and you really want to getreally wild with it because we
have to mention it in passing.
Yeah, because it's.
I have a soft spot for thismovie.
Yeah, is the actual film sequelof Conan Conan the Destroyer,

(01:07:45):
yeah, yeah, was directed by DaveFleischer.
Richard.
Fleischer Richard Fleischer.
Sorry, not Dave.
Dave Fleischer.
Richard Fleischer, holy cow, no, no, richard Fleischer.

Speaker 4 (01:07:54):
Sorry.
Oh, go to the clown director,wouldn't that be great.

Speaker 5 (01:07:56):
Go to that movie.
No, it was Richard Fleischer,who's the son of Max Fleischer.

Speaker 4 (01:08:00):
The son of Max Fleischer who invented
rotoscoping for Bakshi.

Speaker 5 (01:08:03):
Yeah, you see where this crazy cycle is Under the
Sea.
Yep, 20,000 Leagues Under theSea.
And there are some people whoactually make this great
statement that say it's not agood film.
But it's actually the bestDungeons Dragons film.

Speaker 4 (01:08:23):
I've heard the new one's very good.
I haven't seen it.

Speaker 5 (01:08:24):
Yeah, I haven't seen it either, not yet.
No offense, jason Momoa, yeah,but apparently Dungeons Dragons
is also heavily influenced byConan the Barbarian Heavily, oh
yeah, the movie.

Speaker 4 (01:08:36):
I actually read this.
It was a thing, just peopletalking later, fantasy creators
who were talking about beinginfluenced by Conan.
Yeah, gary Gygax was one ofthem.
Oh yeah, he was very open aboutit, oh yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:08:51):
Should we base it off of Conan or not?
I don't know Roll for it.

Speaker 4 (01:08:54):
George RR Martin, also very influenced by Conan,
oh yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:08:59):
Game of Conans.
I mean that would be yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:09:03):
But so, talking about this attraction, there's a lot
of interesting things, butthere's a kind of turning point
here.
Yes, in theme parks, you knowwe mentioned before it's the
replacement for Castle Dracula.
Mm-hmm, in theme parks, youknow we mentioned before it's
the replacement for CastleDracula.
It's, you know, jay Stein whowe talked about in the Dracula
episode J-Bang.
J-bang he's basically thecreative head of the Universal

(01:09:31):
theme park in California, whichis the only one they have at
that point.
Right, and he is trying to andwe've talked about the J-Bang,
he's trying to find these sortof sudden emotional responses in
people.
Yeah, and he thought thatCastle Dracula was going to get
him that and it didn't work.
No, and he knew it didn't work,he was aware of it and he kept

(01:09:54):
trying to fiddle with it and hecouldn't make it work.

Speaker 5 (01:09:56):
Let's get rid of Paul Lynn and put somebody else in
there.
Yeah, charles Nelson Reilly.

Speaker 4 (01:10:02):
Yeah, that's a trade-up.
There's some question like hisjob is starting to become under
threat.
Sure, you know, the big CastleDracula show hasn't done that
well.
Ticket sales have been prettystagnant with the park.
And he gets this whole kind ofnew creative group coming in

(01:10:25):
pitching shows for the CastleDracula theater and he keeps
telling them can you make theDracula show work?
He's like I really want it,he's super obsessed with it.
Finally, I have to admit Iwould be too.
Yeah, I get it, I get it, I getit.
But finally, you know, so theykind of on the side, sort of on

(01:10:46):
the sly, start designing thisConan show because it's a
shoo-in.
Like Universal's involved inthe distribution, they won't
have rights problems.
Yeah, it's a massive hit.
Oh yeah, and a really big thingis Epcot Center in Florida is
just about to open, which meansthat all of the Disney

(01:11:07):
Imagineers that have been tiedonto that project for a long
time now are about to be castadrift.
Time now are about to be castadrift, and so these guys that
are starting to look at thisConan attraction realize, oh,
there's about to be some talentin the pool.
So they start trying to puttogether this thing.
They finally come to Jay Stein,who's staying insistent about

(01:11:31):
keeping Castle Dracula open.
And finally Gary Goddard comesin and says look, next year do
you want to be running ads inthe paper saying we've tweaked
the Dracula show, or do you wantto be running ads in the paper
that say we have a brand newConan show based on a hit movie?

(01:11:52):
Jay Stein comes to his senses.
He says I get it, you're right,yeah, let's do it Nice.
And this comes to his senses.
He says I get it, you're right,yeah, let's do it Nice.
And this is the first time.
So there's two things thathappen here.
One is part of the sellingpoint to Jay Stein and to the
management is that the Conanshow is not like a Disney show.
No, they're like this is notthe kind of thing that the guys

(01:12:15):
down the road would be doing.
We want to do that.
And the second thing is this isthe first time they just poach
all that talent.
Some of it's been cast freebecause of the Epcot thing
reaching an end, the Epcotproject reaching an end.
Some of it they just poach andsteal.
Oh yeah, in Some of it theyjust poach and steal and so they

(01:12:40):
have the creme de la creme ofDisney's Imagineering suddenly
overworking for them.
And these guys are like theshackles are off, we can do
anything, we can be dangerous,we can be loud, we can be sexy,
and they go crazy on this show.
Oh boy, howdy did they?
And what's really interestingis this pattern that was set up

(01:13:03):
right then still goes on to thisday.
Oh yeah, now what happens is oneof these two massive companies,
and to a lesser extent likeCedar Fair, six Flags, starts a
massive project.
They hire up all of theImagineering talent.
It's a very specializedindustry.
You have to know what you'redoing.

(01:13:24):
Oh, yeah, they hire up all thetalent.
They work with them for acouple of years.
Or, in this last case, withEpic Universe that's opening in
the next week or so, they've hadthat talent locked up for about
five years, yeah, and then,when the project's done, the
talent gets let free and theother company goes oh, come over

(01:13:45):
here, we'll hire you now.
Yep, and it's the same guysLike.
Imagineering is no longer thissingular company that just has
all of the creme de la creme ofthese technicians.

Speaker 5 (01:13:56):
Yeah, I mean crews like to head them.
A group, all of them, they allgo through this kind of stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:14:00):
Yeah, and so you know we're still seeing this.
We're about to see all of theseguys go from Epic Universe, and
Disney is starting to make bigplans.
They're starting to think aboutVillainsland in Florida and
they're starting to look at theDisneyland Forward project in
Anaheim.
We may finally get our blackhole dark ride.

Speaker 5 (01:14:24):
Yes, I'm almost positive that's what they're
thinking, or at least the AppleDumpling Gang roller coaster.
Well, now listen up here.

Speaker 4 (01:14:32):
And, by the way, self-promotion.
If you are interested in howthe Disneyland Forward project
actually works because Iguarantee you it doesn't work
the way that you think it doesyou should go check out my
article in Boardwalk Times aboutit.
Oh yeah, you know, if you don'twant to go read Anaheim zoning
laws for like six or seven hours, I'm your guy, I took care of
it for you.

Speaker 5 (01:14:55):
He's like the tax man for Disney.
I go through all of the folderall before you'd have to, but
it's actually a very goodarticle.
You must read it.

Speaker 4 (01:15:03):
Thank you so much.
Yeah, but this, this is thepoint with Conan, where this
pattern starts, where the entirelike theme park industry talent
just starts migrating back andforth, and back and forth.
And you know, when they hitConan, when they hit this show
man, they go nuts.

Speaker 5 (01:15:22):
Oh, yeah, big time I remember.
My memories of this thing areso distinct because I've seen I
know I've seen it at least 10times, sometimes multiple
sittings, you know, on a visitto studios, specifically because
I wanted to see this attractionover and over again my poor
grandparents would take me to.
Don't you want to see this partof the park?

(01:15:42):
No, I want to see Conan again.
Yeah, because they didsomething very interesting A lot
of stunt shows that they usedto have a, and concurrently,
when they opened it, they had awild West stunt show and
concurrently, when they openedit, they had a Wild West stunt
show.
It was the standard Wild Weststunt show where people shooting
guns, people falling off ofroofs and falling onto bags, a
stick of dynamite with oneexplosion, et cetera, et cetera.

(01:16:05):
Yeah, but it was always framedin the howdy folks.
Welcome to Universal Studios.
We're going to show you howstunts are done behind the
scenes.
Even Waterworld is set up likethat.
Hi, everybody, welcome to theset of Waterworld.
We're going to show you howthis movie stunts are done.
Yay, fast and the Furious.
Welcome to the set of Fast andthe Furious.

(01:16:26):
Yay, conan did somethingdifferent.
Yeah, they said we're not goingto acknowledge that this is a
movie.
Yes, and we're not going to beself-referential.
It's like this is Conan andwe're going to stick to it.
Yeah, this is the reality.
There are swords, sorceries andwe've got a dragon.
Yeah, and it's crazy.

(01:16:48):
When I remember sitting in thisthing, I remember going to it,
desperately wanting to be CastleDracula the first time.
Sure, really wanted to goCastle Dracula and I'll say
what's this Conan thing, Right?
And I get in and there's thisgiant rounded stage with water
falling from the ceiling andit's this curtain of

(01:17:09):
crystal-like water, yeah, andall these different colors and
blue shining through it and itjust magically flutters like
it's crystals and it's a curtainand you see kind of the snake
god staircase and the pit in themiddle, a curtain.
And you see kind of the snakegod staircase and the pit in the
middle.
And my grandfather and I wentto see this and I sat in the
front row for the first centerfront row for the first time.

(01:17:29):
I saw this thing, yeah, andyou're just blown away by the
sheer scale of it.
Yeah.
Then the music composed byBasil Polidorus once more, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:17:39):
Original score for the attraction 15 minutes of
original score for theattraction 15 minutes of
original music for thisattraction, which was incredibly
rare, oh yeah, and this mayhave been the first time that it
happened, oh yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:17:52):
It's extraordinary.
And the curtain of water.
All he had to do was turn offthe nozzles of water, but it
looks like a curtain openingwith the water turning off.
Yeah, and it's just mesmerizing.
I just was blown away and Ihadn't even seen the show yet
and I was like I can just watchthis over and over again right
here.
This is cool.
And they've got this swordsticking up in the middle

(01:18:13):
obstructing most of the view,yeah, you know.
And then down falls this ropeand in comes Lady, you know
Sonia and little Conan, who'sthis little wimpy version?
And they awaken this sorcererwho.
Oh yes, let me tell you allabout what's going on here.
Kid, you know, let me give yousome ancient wisdom, the
Sumerian wisdom.
And then they awaken the godsby stealing the eye of the

(01:18:34):
serpent.
Yep, you know.
And you have this big, boomingvoice steal the eye of the
serpent, no, don't do it.
And they have this big, boomingvoice steer the eye of the
serpent, no, don't do it.
And all of a sudden, bad guysare pouring all over the place.
And that's when Conan, rushedto the front, grabs a sword and
they have a trap door set upwhere all the CO2 cannons are
going off and the little wimpyguy comes down and this big buff
guy comes out and replaces himto be Conan Conan, you're the

(01:18:58):
only one with the power.
And then it becomes a sweatfest of just like stunts, people
getting killed and thrown intothe pit.
And then, at one point, themain wizard villain shows up and
he's this shadowy thing behindthis giant wall of laser light.

Speaker 2 (01:19:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:19:15):
This oily laser light which, if you want to
experience what it is, yes, youcould check out the YouTube
video.
Or you could check out wherethe laser was actually used,
which was in the 1979 version ofDracula oh huh, for the famous
disco vampire lovemaking scene,which is really terrible.
Yeah, but instead of green itis red-lit.
It was originally built for amusic video for the who oh huh,

(01:19:39):
and it was borrowed by thecompany for Dracula, yeah, and
it was eventually migrated overto Universal Studios to be used
in Conan and he shows up andmore villains popping out and so
forth, but the big coup degrace is the villain dies.
Conan kills the big bad guy andthe bad guy comes back as a
dragon.
Yeah, and this is way beforeFantasmic.

(01:20:00):
Yes, this massive, it is just ahead on a dragon.
Yeah, and this is way beforeFantasmic.
Yes, this massive, it is just ahead on a neck.
Yeah, and it comes out of thispit and it is everything you
wanted in a dragon.
Yes, it is big, it is nasty, itis this big booming voice that
comes out of its mouth, but italso breathes real fire.
Yes, it does, so much so that I, actually you, could feel the

(01:20:22):
heat if you were sitting closeenough to it, and be really
uncomfortable.
It's like we're going toentertain you by making you feel
like you're going to get burned.

Speaker 4 (01:20:30):
You know it was so hot, that fire and on top of a
whole bunch of other effects,that when they had an inspector
come in right before they opened, the inspector demanded that
they fit the entire theater withnew air conditioning to funnel
the heat out, yeah, which causedthem to have to cut other

(01:20:50):
things out of the show becauseit had to happen in like a week.

Speaker 5 (01:20:53):
I know, oh God, well, one of the other things that it
has.
Like, just when you think thatthe fire is enough for this
dragon, yeah, it also startsshooting green laser beams out
of its eyeballs.
And these are not show laserslike laser pointers.
These are true high voltage,high amperage, military grade
lasers, being shot out of alaser generator through a course

(01:21:16):
of mirrors that go up throughthe dragon, and they are
specifically aimed andprogrammed to hit certain points
where they have set up flashpots.
Yeah, so it really does blowstuff up with its lasers.

Speaker 4 (01:21:28):
Yeah, the laser is actually igniting the flash pot.

Speaker 5 (01:21:31):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And there were actors who gotinjured by the laser.
Yeah, the laser actuallybounced off of a sword one time
and hit somebody in the shoulder.
It was like, oh my God.

Speaker 4 (01:21:41):
It really works when you look at the way that they
had to set up safety for thisshow, because it was an
incredibly dangerous show.
Oh yeah, at least one actor didget burned from the flames from
the dragon.
But there were panels in thefloor and for certain effects,
like the flame effect, to go off, an actor would have to be

(01:22:03):
standing in a certain positionwith one foot on each panel, so
you couldn't just push one down.
You had to be standing in theright position with one foot
touching one panel, one foottouching another panel, and then
all of the other actors onstage be on similar panels.
So everything was reading thatwe know exactly where every

(01:22:27):
actor on the stage is standing.
And then two people in thecontrol booth had to hit a
button.
Oh, yeah, simultaneously.
Yeah, simultaneously.
All of those things had to betrue before the flame would come
out.
Oh jeez, and I mean it was justbecause it was that dangerous.

Speaker 5 (01:22:45):
Oh yeah, and a lot of people used to complain about
the show going.
That's really staged.
Like some of the fight scenesseem kind of hokey, yeah, and
you watch it and yes, inhindsight you kind of go yeah, I
get it.
But when you're 10 or 11 andyou're into Dungeons and Dragons
and you're totally into Tolkienand you're suddenly with this

(01:23:06):
real dragon, you don't care.
Okay, the sword fights.
You know, this is not WilliamHobbes.
Okay, you're right, this islike really bad choreography,
but who cares?
Yeah, the chicks are hot, theguys are hot, the swords are hot
, the guys are hot, the swordsare awesome.
The dragon is amazing.
The flames are real.
Who cares?
So yeah, you can totally tellthat the fights are definitely

(01:23:36):
set up to be meticulous, timeddance maneuvers to keep
everybody safe.

Speaker 4 (01:23:37):
Well, this is the first time anyone tried anything
this big and since then it'sbeen copied a number of
different ways.
There were certainly eyes thatwere, you know, cast askance
when Fantasmic happened and avery similar dragon thing
happened.
There's elements of the IndianaJones stunt show.

Speaker 5 (01:23:57):
Can you imagine Mickey Mouse in a Conan outfit?
Oh, that'd be awesome.
Oh, what's wrong with you?
Thulsa Doom, this is my dream.

Speaker 4 (01:24:06):
Hey Mickey.
What's the best in life?

Speaker 5 (01:24:10):
Crush your enemies.
See the driven before you andhear the limitations of women.
That's right.

Speaker 4 (01:24:21):
Sounds good to me, mate, let's go get our eye of
the serpent, but yeah, like theindie stunt show in Florida, is
very influenced by this Kind ofevery big stunt show is
influenced by this.
This is the one where they'refiguring it out.

(01:24:41):
And speaking of figuring it out, who builds that giant dragon?
Bob Gurr, that's right.

Speaker 5 (01:24:47):
The mighty Bob, our friend Bob.
Everybody's friend, everybody'sfriend, bob Gurr.
Yeah, bob had obviously leftDisney and was looking for
better pastures.

Speaker 4 (01:24:59):
Bob had a bad experience working at Epcot.
He did design some stuff there,but he was ignored about some
things that he was passionateabout and had wandered away.
You often, when you hear BobGert speak, you'll often hear
him kind of glowing about peoplethat he worked with after

(01:25:20):
Disney and he seems he's veryproud of his Disney work.
Oh sure, but I think towardsthe end of that time with Disney
he was not that happy.
Yeah.
But yeah, he built that dragon,he figured out how to make it
work.

Speaker 5 (01:25:35):
Boy howdy.
Yeah, it's incredible.
I mean, a lot of theanimatronics were also processed
by the same company that haddone some of the effects for the
Dracula show.
Yeah, the werewolf and severaland the phantom of the opera,
the theatrotronics yes,theatrotronics, yes, the same
company that had done so.
They had contributed bycreating the spin panel.

(01:25:57):
And for those who don't knowwhat a spin panel is, it's a
magic illusion in which you canquickly replace one actor for,
like a burned up corpse.
There's one point where thegood sorcerer gets zapped by the
dragon or by the villain, Iforget which it is.
I haven't watched the show in acouple of weeks, but it
instantly spins around.
You have to hang on for yourlife because you're literally

(01:26:19):
rotating on this centralcentrifugal force.
Yeah, there's a greatbehind-the-scenes video of the
guy in costume.
He spins around really quickand you see how fast it is and
he slams in and he looks rightin the camera.
He goes ah, the magic of thetheater, but he's one of the
guys that actually ignitedbecause of the dragon.
He talks about how his hair hadcaught on fire.
Oh wow, so hair had caught onfire.
So all of his beard and hairhad to be chemically treated to

(01:26:42):
resist.

Speaker 4 (01:26:43):
So, with all of these safety precautions, people
still got caught.
Oh yeah, it was insanelydangerous.

Speaker 5 (01:26:50):
One of my favorite memories of this thing was the
television commercial for it.
Oh, I don't know that I've everseen it.
Oh, my God, I'll show it to youafter we record this episode.
But, um, they, they.
They kind of give you a briefoverview of what the show is
about.
Yeah, but the guy who playsconan looks like superfly
snooker, and not in a good way.

(01:27:11):
Yeah, like like he, just likehe does this kind of triple take
.
Yeah, he sees the dragon and hejust looks like he's buff as
heck.
Yeah, but he just looksridiculous.
And you're like, uh-huh, conan.

Speaker 1 (01:27:26):
Oh gosh, I'm Conan.

Speaker 5 (01:27:28):
You're like oh my God , but still it got people in.
Yeah, it really got underpeople's skin.
People loved this show and itsold a lot of merchandise.
Yeah, that's the thing, I think, where it didn't necessarily
sell the tickets, yeah, but itsold a ton of merchandise.

Speaker 4 (01:27:53):
Well, one of the things that I really admire
about what Universal did herewas that, you know, they were
hoping to kind of turn aroundthe fate of the theater because
Castle Dracula wasn't doing that.
Well, yeah, they put in Conan.
They spent $4 million.
They had budgeted $800,000.
Oh jeez, they came in justunder $4 million.

Speaker 5 (01:28:09):
The $800,000 was just for the baby oil.
Yeah, For the actors.

Speaker 4 (01:28:15):
And they put it in.
They advertised the heck out ofit and it didn't really move
the needle very much, nope.
And yet what Universal did andI'm really impressed by this is
they just stood by it.
They said this is the model forwhat we're trying to do.
It's not Disney.
One of the things that wasinteresting was Jay Stein when

(01:28:38):
they were developing this.
One of the things that wasinteresting was Jay Stein, when
they were developing this, kepttrying to argue about that thing
you were talking about earlier,about being more self-reflexive
and actually having someaudience participation going on.
And the developers kept pushingback and pushing back and
saying, first off, it's way toodangerous with what we're trying

(01:28:58):
to do and second, we just wantto build a giant fantasy show.
And so Universal, they builtthis thing.
They went as far as they couldgo with it.
They spent a lot of money.
They did some really innovativethings.
It didn't seem to really makethem a ton of money in ticket

(01:29:19):
sales, but they just stuck withit and they said, no, we don't
care, this is what we want to do.
And they kept that thing inthere just about 10 years.

Speaker 5 (01:29:29):
Almost, yeah, 10 years.
They actually did have adiscussion, briefly, about how
they could cash in on thepopularity of another fantasy
franchise, aka Masters of theUniverse, because Conan the
Barbarian set off and somepeople would actually argue that
it was actually Bakshi'sTolkien adaptation.

(01:29:50):
But I would argue that it's acombo of both.
That set off the 80s fantasygenre with movies like
Neverending Story, krull,deathstalker, beastmaster, thor.
So all the sorcerer, yeah,let's just go down the list of
all the fabulous oh Krull.
I love Krull.

(01:30:11):
I wish they had made a Krullsword and sorcery spectacular
yeah, but that's a differentstory.
Save it for your plus app.
But anyhow, what was I going?

Speaker 4 (01:30:23):
Oh, starting the fantasy genre.

Speaker 5 (01:30:26):
Yes, they tried it because of the fantasy genre and
a lot of that was driven bykids who really wanted fantasy
at this time.
You have to understand that thisis the era of Ronald Reagan's
America, where people were notfeeling a lot of autonomy.
People were feeling veryoppressed at the time.
Part of the appeal of Mass isthe Universe for kids was the

(01:30:49):
fact they felt empowered bythese characters.
Yeah, and also the narrativewas very loose.
Yeah, it was very easy for themto go.
Well, skeletor's obviously thebad guy.
Yeah, teela and He-Man they'reobviously the good guys.
And when they came out withShe-Ra Princess of Power, that
was it.
I mean, he-man and the Mastersof the Universe actually had a

(01:31:11):
very interesting gender spread.
As far as sales, yeah, a lot ofgirls loved the He-Man action
figures.
For that very reason.
They felt empowered, especiallywhen they found out that they
had a Teela character which wasHe-Man's friend, yeah, and then
as soon as they came up withPrincess of Power, the sales
were insanely good and boys keptup with Princess of Power.

(01:31:32):
They liked some of the villainsand the characters from She-Ra.
So it was very interesting onhow it really wasn't either a
boy's toy or a girl's toy, nomatter how it was marketed.
Yeah, it actually sitssomewhere in the middle.

Speaker 2 (01:31:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:31:46):
So Universal decided to try and cash in on this to
try and get the people in thetheater for Conan Mm-hmm.
So there was actual discussionof well, can't we just reface it
and make it He-Man?
Yeah, they thought about it andthought about it and I guess
the consensus was there are toomany factors to change things.

(01:32:08):
Yeah, that it would literallyjust be.
It would be too obvious thatit's a reskin, because you have
to have all these safetyprocedurals, you have to have
all these different things thatare set up, but you still, it
would just be a reskin.
The audience would know it andthe amount of money it would
take to do that just doesn'tmake any sense.

(01:32:29):
So Universal Studios did a veryinteresting promo because there
was another franchise that wasalso making it big yeah,
strangely enough, animated bythe same people behind the
Rankin and Bass Hobbit whichincluded some people who had
eventually found Studio GhibliOkay, including Hayao Miyazaki,

(01:32:49):
although he didn't work on thisshow.
Yeah, but there were others whodid, who would work at Ghibli,
and that show was theTransformers.
Oh, yeah, yeah, was theTransformers?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So you had Transformers forsci-fi and you had He-Man and
the Masters of the Universe thatChristmas 1984, something like
that.
Those were the big ones.
Yeah, the Masters of theUniverse only had Castle

(01:33:10):
Grayskull, like one tank vehicle, four villains and four heroes.
Yeah, that's all you had.
Yeah, I think it made Mattelsomewhere in a seven-digit range
, about 3 million.
Yeah, the next year it went upto 15 million and the following
year it was 36 million.
That's how fast this growth was.

(01:33:31):
Yeah, and everybody tried to geton board, whether it was Black
Star or whatever.
There were all these differentfantasy characters that suddenly
became toys in TV shows.
The Universal decided to tryand bank on that.
What we got, instead of areskin of the Conan show with
Masters of the Universe, was wegot this giveaway On YouTube.

(01:33:56):
You can actually see this toycommercial for it, and it's
these actors kind of dressed upas He-Man and Skeletor and
Man-at-Arms and Teela Beast-Man,and they are very reminiscent
of a trend at Toys R Us in whichit would have actors dress up
as characters to promote thelatest toys.
Because that's all it reallywas.

(01:34:16):
Yeah, because that's all itreally was.
Yeah, there's a point on thetram tour that used to be a
halfway point where you wouldget off the tram halfway through
and get to walk around on theback lot, right, and you could
have lunch.
They had like a cafeteria thereand I think they had a couple
of like the wonder of specialeffects.

(01:34:38):
This halfway point is at thebottom of the hill and is
essentially now where JurassicPark the ride is, and they used
to famously have this oneattraction where it was
originally meant to be for thesix million dollar man, in which
it was a van that wascounterweighted, so little kids

(01:34:59):
could lift up a van.
Oh, that's awesome, yeah.
And then they eventuallyrepainted it so it looked like
the A-team's van for some reason.
So I guess you were supposed tobe like Mr T lifting it or
something.
Okay, I pity the fool who don'teat my cereal, but at the time,
at the same standpoint, they hada special giveaway in which you
would get Masters of theUniverse toys.
You would get a toy which, forbeing one of the biggest

(01:35:21):
Christmas sales over Star Warsat the time, it was Masters of
the Universe.
So, yeah, we went.
I got a Ram man action figurewhich I was really pleased by.
But yeah, you got to have thisexperience.
But it was kind of hokey and itwas like thanks for the free

(01:35:42):
toy.
But the rest was kind of likeoh, okay, yeah.
It was like this weird.
It looked like a parade floatthat had been chopped off and
put there of like a veryminiature version of Castle
Greyskull.
You're like that's CastleGreyskull.
It's really teeny, yeah, butlike in the promos, they made it
look like really huge, you know, but it's like it's.
I think it was 10 to 12 feettall, if that, but it's just a
backdrop, but it was like, okay,this could have been something

(01:36:05):
really special.
As a Masters of the Universe fangrowing up, I was not into GI
Joe or Transformers.
It was Masters of the Universefor me, yeah, which explains a
lot.
And then they did the followingyear, they redid it, only this
time you also could get aTransformers toy.
Yeah, and they were like thelittle guys, like the little
Bumblebee action figures yeah,they weren't like a big act, but
you got a free toy.

(01:36:25):
It was cool, sure, but it justnever quite clicked.
Master of the Universe wasconstantly pumping out new
episodes on TV, right, animatedby Lou Scheimer Productions and
Filmation.
Right, animated by Lou ScheimerProductions and Filmation, and
my mentor, sheldon Borenstein,from college he was an animator

(01:36:47):
on Masters of the Universe andShe-Ra especially.
Oh, okay, so he was working atFilmation.
It was one of his earlyanimation gigs, the.

Speaker 4 (01:37:07):
Lowdown on the Plus Up is a BoardWalk Times podcast.

Speaker 6 (01:37:16):
At BoardWalkTimesnet you'll find some of the most
well-considered and insightfulwriting about the Walt Disney
Company, disney history and theuniverse of theme parks,
available anywhere.

Speaker 4 (01:37:21):
Come join us at BoardWalkTimesnet.

Speaker 5 (01:37:32):
It actually whittled away the chances of sales for
Masters of the Universe and itjust kind of withered.
Yeah, it just kind of witheredaway with everybody trying to
make these franchises, but justpeople had moved on to other
things at that point.
Yeah, toy-wise and plus thechildren that they were
advertising, my generation weregrowing older.
We weren't looking to play withaction figures anymore.

(01:37:54):
There was a whole othergeneration.
These were the kids that weregrowing up on Teenage Mutant
Ninja, turtles and that kind ofstuff so that was the following
generation.
Right, my generation wasThundercats, Motu and all these
other shows.
Herculoids, oh gosh, theHerculoids, oh yeah.
Humanoids, yeah, all thosegreat Inhumanoids.
That was it the Inhumanoids,Inhumanoids, Gosh.

(01:38:18):
So it almost became like thosetoys became a parody of what had
come before you know, andunfortunately it started to show
Like you watch video of theConan show from the 80s and
there just seems to be an energythere.
But when you look at the latershows, like some of the videos
that are on YouTube from the90s- just before it goes away.

(01:38:39):
Yeah, you can definitely seethey're just running through the
paces like oh, whatever, okay,I've got the power of the sword,
mighty, whatever, yay, and itjust lacks the energy.

Speaker 4 (01:38:50):
Well, and you know you've got all these other shows
that have come through thatmaybe are marginally doing
better.
Yeah, you know, at their othertheater, the Waterworld show,
the A-Team show, the A-Team showyeah, I feel like there's
something else that I can'tremember, but you know things
that are really taking focus.
Also, you know, the bloom isoff the rose for Conan at this

(01:39:14):
point, like there's not beenmuch in the way of Conan product
and very little for a long timethat anyone has really loved.
Yeah, I think they tried to dolike a series at some point
1992,.

Speaker 5 (01:39:29):
Yeah, there was the Adventures of Conan.

Speaker 4 (01:39:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:39:31):
And it was not good.

Speaker 4 (01:39:32):
You know.
So they're coming into theearly 90s and they finally are
like, yeah, let's give it a rest.

Speaker 5 (01:39:39):
Literally a different world.
Yeah.
I mean Reagan was no longer inthe White House, right, bush in
the White House, now, right, andwe had the New World Order and
we were about to cross over theninto the Clinton years.
Yes, and that's about when theworld just kind of changed.

(01:39:59):
Yeah, we were really enteringinto the 90s Right With finger
quotes.

Speaker 6 (01:40:05):
Right.

Speaker 5 (01:40:05):
The big 90s transition.
Conan just didn't seem to havethat place anymore.
Yeah, we also had the rise ofthe AIDS epidemic, which kind of
killed off a lot of people'ssexual liberation, mm-hmm, yeah.
So once again we had kind of arise of repression.
Yeah, that was kind of a riseof repression that was kind of
taking over.
At that time that type of 80sexcess just couldn't exist

(01:40:26):
anymore.

Speaker 4 (01:40:26):
Yeah.
And you know what else isreally interesting is there's a
kind of dovetail here withRobert E Howard's actual writing
.
Yeah, his original stories.
Without Elspreg de Camp'sinfluence, by the way, you know
who was invited to the openingof this attraction?
Who?
Elspreg de Camp's influence?
By the way, you know who wasinvited to the opening of this
attraction?
Who?
Elspreg de Camp and his wife,nice, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:40:48):
Did he walk through and he goes.
It's good, but I have somechanges I want to make I got
some cuts.
Yeah, I've got some notes.

Speaker 4 (01:40:56):
But you know it's been since maybe the early 50s
that Robert E Howard's unedited,unchanged, unadded two works
have been available.
Wow, and they first startbecoming available again in the
90s.
So this is an interestingdovetail, interesting dovetail

(01:41:17):
Like this thing.
The kind of altered version ofConan, the Frank Frazetta
Elsberg de Camp variation onConan, is finally being put
aside and the original Robert EHoward writings are suddenly
becoming available again andthis show closes down.

Speaker 5 (01:41:35):
Yeah, it's interesting and I was sad when
it went away.
Yeah, but at the same time,it's like it's been around for
10 years.
Yeah, it's time.
Yeah, you know, even I, the bigfan of the show, was like yeah,
it's time.
I think it's.
Let's see what else they wouldcome out with.
And what we got wasBeetlejuice's Rock and Roll.
Graveyard Review.

Speaker 4 (01:41:57):
But that's another show.
Yeah, and I got to be fair.
I've never seen Beetlejuice'sRock and Roll Graveyard review,
so I don't know You're notmissing much.

Speaker 5 (01:42:05):
Yeah, no offense to anybody who was in that show.

Speaker 4 (01:42:10):
Yeah, no, okay so with the closing of this.
I think we have touched uponthe fact that we have the
origins and the rise of Conanand the fall of Conan, but also
the fact that this really setthe tone for Universal Studios'

(01:42:31):
approach to making attractionsfrom here on out.
Yeah, and it's really true,universal was deliberately
trying to be not Disney here.
Yeah, and they also recognizedthat people that worked for
Disney were people that couldalso work for them.
Yes, yes, indeed, that peoplethat worked for Disney were
people that could also work forthem.
Yes, yes, indeed.
And this is where things startto split.
Except for that, it doesn'ttake too long to where Disney

(01:42:52):
seems to be trying to be likeUniversal, heisner, katzenberg
and so that's interesting,Heisner.
Katzenberg.
And so that's interesting,because Universal is trying to
kind of separate themselves awayand carve their own identity
and Disney's seemingly trying tokind of veer towards what

(01:43:15):
they're doing, which that's awhole other discussion we could
talk about for hours and weshould probably save it for
another time.
But this is the point wherethose identities start.
Both of their identities startto shift.
Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 5 (01:43:28):
Well, I think we've actually reached a point in our
show where we take on the secondhalf of our title.
Here and, without any thoughtof safety precautions or budget
or anything else, we can come upwith a plus-up, and I'm going
to actually put this one on you.
I've been doing a lot of thetalk in this episode.
Okay, so you did that onRocketman.

Speaker 4 (01:43:52):
Fair enough, but this time you get to go first with
your plus-up.
So I was thinking about it andI'm like you know it's a theater
show, I want to keep it atheater show, I want to get it
back to being a stunt show and Iwant to get it back to being a
fantasy show or something like afantasy show.
And it occurred to me.
So I started thinking like whatproperties would be really cool

(01:44:13):
as a fantasy show, something alittle more current than Conan?
And so the first thing thatpopped in my head was Lord of
the Rings.
Like, yeah, that could bepretty cool.
It's not that current, but it'sstill kind of in the zeitgeist.
Sure, I'm sure if you askeduniversal executives they would
say Wicked, which actually couldbe kind of neat.

(01:44:34):
True, yeah.
But then it hit me the obviousanswer.
This is so clear I don't evenknow how you're going to have a
response to this.
The absolute answer, with whatto put in the stage, is the
world of Supermarionation, agiant stage show that brings

(01:44:58):
together all the great works ofJerry and Sylvia Anderson.

Speaker 5 (01:45:06):
I'm dangling around like a marionette, wiggling my
lower lip like a talkingThunderbirds character.

Speaker 4 (01:45:13):
Thunderbirds are a go , and it'll be a big stunt show.
Everyone will look like they'remarionettes, but they'll be
real people so they can actuallyget hurt.
We'll bring in the Thunderbirds, we'll bring in the Stingray.
We'll bring in, of course, thegreatest of them all, captain

(01:45:38):
Scarlet Brilliant, and you canuse this big set and you can
move in between Thunderbird'sbases and have giant ships
flying across.
Oh my God, you can go visitSpectrum with Captain Scarlet
and maybe they can all fight theMysterons.

(01:46:00):
Nice, and there'll be a reallycool effect, since they're all
marionettes, even though they'rereally just people dressed as
marionettes.
Yes, exactly Pete's doing itwith his hand, like they can
suddenly get lifted up by theirstrings and swing across the
stage Meanwhile in another partof town they come up and drag
one to the other side of thestage and just plop down like a

(01:46:21):
marionette.

Speaker 5 (01:46:22):
Oh, in another part of town they come up and drag
him over to the other side ofthe stage and just plop down
like a marionette.

Speaker 4 (01:46:24):
Oh my God, I love this idea so much.
There's rockets taking off,they're doing espionage.

Speaker 5 (01:46:30):
I think this is actually a traveling Broadway
show that needs to happen.
Yes, the Thunderbirds are.
Go the musical.

Speaker 4 (01:46:37):
And it would actually bring everything full circle
because, as we know from readingKen Bruce's book Before the
Birds Sang, words animatronicsbasically start with
Supermarionation.
Oh yeah, that's where theystart.
Oh yeah, so we're coming fullcircle, we're bringing
Supermarionation back.
I love it, lady Penelope.

(01:47:02):
Oh my God, I love this.
So that's my plus up.
A giant Supermarionation Worldof Jerry and Sylvia Anderson
show.

Speaker 5 (01:47:13):
Okay, I love this, that's so great.

Speaker 4 (01:47:18):
It's the obvious answer right.

Speaker 6 (01:47:19):
It's totally obvious.

Speaker 5 (01:47:21):
Oh man, that's a good one.
I don't know how I'm going totop that one.
Yeah, well, the one I had.
So my plus up is taking us backto some of the previous
attractions, with theinteractivity that Universal was
known for at that time.
Yeah, of pulling people out ofthe audience and making them

(01:47:42):
part of the movie experienceyeah, right.
But also coming back to thestunt show aspect of the
over-the-top creatures andstunts, and theatronics and
animatronics, but with theanimatronics being what they are
now, especially what we'reseeing with Epic Universe Holy
cow those look amazing.
Like, yeah, there's no excusenot to do something like this.

(01:48:05):
Yeah, is to bring back it couldbe in that same theater, or
maybe it's in another part ofthe park.
Is to do the Dungeons andDragons stunt show?
Oh yeah, in which several luckypeople from the audience are
pulled up out of.
You know two adults, oneteenager.

(01:48:25):
You know two teenagers and onekid, yeah, and they're each
given a particular characterclass.
Yeah, like you know, it's likethe 80s cartoon show.
You know Ranger Magic User.

Speaker 2 (01:48:36):
Paladin yeah, barbarian, oh, I'm the Dungeon
Master, ooh.

Speaker 5 (01:48:42):
And you could actually have Dungeon Master.
You know when you're going upagainst.
You know Venger and whateveryou want.
I mean Venger and those kidsare now canon because they are
in the new Dungeon Mastersmanual for Dungeons Dragons for
its 50th anniversary.
They are acknowledging thatthose characters are canon.
Wow, and they are actually inthe Dungeons Dragons Honor Among

(01:49:07):
Thieves movie.
Oh, wow, that's great.
They're part of the dungeoncrawling sequence where the main
characters of the movie lookleft and right and there's one
crew over here and they lookover to the left.
The only thing that's missingis a baby unicorn.
They're all there.
It's like, oh my God, it's thecharacters from the 80s show.
That's awesome and you rollwith it Like if you know, you
know, and if you don't, itdoesn't really matter, it's fine
.
So the premise would be is thatyou learn about the world of

(01:49:28):
Dungeons Dragons and, instead ofthis being a standard stunt
show, you actually do thereferential thing.
Yeah, but it's not about themagic of the movies, it's about
training to be those particularcharacter classes.
Okay.
So you take them backstage, youput them in a cheap little
costume probably fireproofed,yeah and you make them do a

(01:49:49):
trial.
You're actually in theAdventurer's Guild castle, yeah,
in which you train to be adungeoneer, yeah, and so you get
.
You know, the paladin has to dothis particular action.
That is a magic illusion or astunt or a thing where it's
safe-ish for the characters todo it, but then the audience is

(01:50:12):
watching, cheering them on, andthey get to be the star of this
30 seconds where they have to,all right, cross the beam.
Now look for this, now look forthis trap.
Okay, you win, and then, likethe character who's the thief
has to do something.
But they actually die, right,they actually have, like, this
spin-around wall where they'reincinerated.
They're like oh, she failed thatone oh boy you know.
Then you have the kid dosomething where they're dropped

(01:50:34):
in a pool of water, they'restuck in a gelatin or whatever.
But because of this trainingthey actually have Venger, the
big baddie from the TV show,show up and cause problems.
And then the actual guildmasters are the actual, real
hardcore stunts.
So then it becomes a stunt show.
So the first, like 15 minutesis nothing but like training

(01:50:56):
these audience members.
And then the last person whoactually saves the day is the
last of the volunteers, yeah,and they actually, you know,
pull the sword or put thegemstone or kill the dragon.
So it's this big starringmoment that's actually an
audience member, yeah.
And the rest, all the bigdangerous stunts, are done by
actual stunt masters that aresupposed to be the ones training

(01:51:16):
them to do the dungeoneeringRight.
But you still have thisover-the-top universal
fire-in-your-face kind of stuff.
But it ties into the magic andinteractivity of Dungeons
Dragons without having to worryabout, you know, roll for Claire
, you know, roll forintermission, whatever.
And believe me, guys, I throw aD20 like nobody's business and

(01:51:37):
I love it, yeah, but it is stillgeeky.

Speaker 4 (01:51:41):
Oh totally.

Speaker 5 (01:51:42):
D&d is geeky and I have no problem with it.
I love it, yeah, but I thinkthat would be my plus up is it
is a franchise that's beenaround for 50 years.
Yeah, so have I.
It's a nice way ofincorporating some of that
nostalgia of Conan withouthaving to be Conan.
That's totally right.
You could be as inclusive aspossible with characters and

(01:52:04):
situations that come up totoday's standards.
You can go violent if you wantto, but if the audience reacts,
you can actually tone it back ifyou want to.
Yeah, you've got that classiclike universal.

Speaker 4 (01:52:16):
Let's make the kid the hero and let's embarrass dad
.

Speaker 5 (01:52:19):
Yes, absolutely, and I think that'd be fun as hell.
I think it'd be great, yeah,super fun.
I mean I would buy a ticketjust to do that.
Yeah, you know, like that'skind of what I wish they had
done with Harry Potter is have,like you know, a class that's
the defense against the dark artshow, right, and you, like,
you're training people how tofight the dark arts and you're

(01:52:39):
training people how to fight thedark arts, but again, you
embarrass dad.
You have the kid, the hero,that whole thing.

Speaker 4 (01:52:42):
Totally.
I mean, it just seems likeleaving money on the table,
doesn't it?

Speaker 5 (01:52:45):
I know so come on, universal, get on it.
Yeah, put some J-bangs in there, let's go.

Speaker 4 (01:52:51):
Yeah, that's what they need.

Speaker 5 (01:52:52):
They need more J-bangs these days they do am
still working on the t-shirt.
Yeah, I am, I've got, I, I'mworking.
I am actually working on a lowdown on the plus up selection of
shirts.
I have just finishedmagnification and I've begun
work on jay bang, so like it isactually happening.
Folks, keep your ears peeledfor the line of t-shirts to help

(01:53:16):
fund kelly's and my journey tothe epic universe.
We'll be able to buy with yourproceeds.
We'll be able to buy a churro.

Speaker 4 (01:53:26):
It'll be great yeah, maybe For lucky yeah prices
these days.

Speaker 5 (01:53:35):
Yeah, ever since the churro flu broke out.

Speaker 6 (01:53:37):
Yeah, the price of churros is really high by
today's standards.

Speaker 5 (01:53:42):
Well, I think that wraps it up for today's show.
I'm Peter Overstreet and I'mKelly McGovern, and you've
joined us for the Lowdown on thePlus.
Zone.

Speaker 4 (01:54:06):
We hope you've enjoyed this episode of the
Lowdown on the Plus Up.
If you have, please tell yourfriends where you found us, and
if you haven't, we can pretendthis never happened and need not
speak of it again.
For a lot more thoughts ontheme parks and related stuff,
check out my writing forBoardwalk TimesTimes at
BoardWalkTimesnet.
Feel free to reach out to Peteand I on our Lowdown on the Plus

(01:54:26):
Up Facebook group or send us amessage directly at comments at
lowdown-plus-upcom.
We really want to hear abouthow you'd plus these attractions
up and read some of your ideason the show plus these

(01:54:55):
attractions up and read some ofyour ideas on the show.

Speaker 3 (01:55:00):
Our theme music is Goblin Tinker, soldier Spy by
Kevin MacLeod at incompetechcom.
We'll have a new episode outreal soon.
Why?
Because we like you, thank you,conan.

Speaker 1 (01:55:30):
What is best in life To crush your enemies, see them
driven before you and to hearthe lamentation of their women.

Speaker 6 (01:55:39):
That is good, that is good.

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Fire and Baby Oil - Conan: A Sword and Sorcery Spectacular

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Fire and Baby Oil - Conan: A Sword and Sorcery Spectacular