April 5, 2024 • 54 mins
Image: Martin Luther by Lucas Cranach the Younger
"Wittenberg Uses of Law and Gospel"
Our guest today Dr. Robert A. Kolb is a professor emeritus of Systematic Theology at Concordia Seminary, St. Louis. See the emeritus faculty page at Concordia Lutheran Seminary:
Kolb retired in 2009 after 16 years of distinguished service as missions professor of Systematic Theology and Concordia Lutheran Seminary in St. Louis. Before joining the Seminary, he served as director of the Center for Reformation Research, and in various teaching roles in the religion and history departments at Concordia College in St. Paul, Minn. He has taken much time over many years to teach abroad. He also has been involved in several boards—serving both officially on behalf of the LCMS on commissions, and a leader of 16th century and Reformation societies.
There is not enough time to list everything he has written, but I included a selection today: He is the author of several books, including The Christian Faith: A Luther Exposition; The Genius of Luther’s Theology: A Wittenberg Way of Thinking for the Contemporary Church with Dr. Charles Arand; Studies of the Interpretation of Holy Scripture in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Century; Lutheran Ecclesiastical Culture, 1550-1675; Bound Choice, Election, and Wittenberg Theological Method from Martin Luther to the Formula of Concord; Sources and Contexts of the Book of Concord, co-edited with James A. Nestingen; Teaching God’s Children His Teaching, a Guide to the Study of Luther’s Catechism; and the list goes on. Perhaps where his name is on most Lutheran bookshelves is in the Book of Concord—he was one of the editors and translators of the most used English edition today. He also has written more than 100 articles and a collection of essays. One of the most recent, titled Wittenberg Uses of Law and Gospel, was published in the Fall edition of the 2023 Lutheran Quarterly and is the focus of this podcast episode.
- Confessional Languages Scholarship
- Youtube ( even more behind-the-scenes videos available for certain patron tiers)
- Website
- Interview Request Form
- email: thelutheranhistorypodcast@gmail.com
- About the Host
- Benjamin Phelps is a 2014 graduate from Martin Luther College with a Bachelor of Arts with a German emphasis. From there went on to graduate from Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary in 2018.
Ben loves all things history and enjoys traveling. A descendant of over a dozen Lutheran pastors, Ben has an interest in his family roots, especially 19th-century Lutheranism, and has written several papers and journal articles on the topic. His 2018 thesis on Wyneken won the John Harrison Ness award and the Abdel Ross Wentz prize. He is also the recipient of two awards of commendation from the Concordia Historical Institute.
Ben is currently a doctoral student in historical theology through Concordia Seminary's reduced residency program in St. Louis.
- Benjamin Phelps is a 2014 graduate from Martin Luther College with a Bachelor of Arts with a German emphasis. From there went on to graduate from Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary in 2018.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ben Phelps (00:33):
Welcome to the Lutheran History podcast where
we cover over 500 years ofLutheran history. Our guest
today is Dr. Robert Kolb, who isa professor emeritus of
Systematic Theology at ConcordiaLutheran Seminary in St. Louis.
He received his master's degreeand master of sacred theology
from Concordia. He also earned aMaster of Arts and Dr.
(00:54):
Philosophy degree from theUniversity of Wisconsin in
Madison, has also receivedseveral honorary degrees as
well. Dr. Kolb retired in 2009,after 16 years of distinguished
service as a missions professorof Systematic Theology at
Concordia Lutheran seminary.
Before joining the seminary, hehad served as director of the
Center for reformation research,and in various teaching roles in
(01:17):
religion and history departmentsat Concordia College. St. Paul,
Minnesota, is taken much timeover many years to teach abroad.
He's also been involved inseveral boards, including
serving both officially onbehalf of the Lutheran Church
Missouri Synod on commissions,and as a leader of 16th century
and reformation societies.
(01:38):
There's certainly not enoughtime to list everything he has
written, but I included aselection today. He is the
author of several books,including Christian faith,
Lutheran exposition, the geniusof Lutheran theology, Wittenberg
way of thinking for thecontemporary church, studies of
the interpretation of HolyScripture in the 16th and 17th
(01:58):
century, Lutheran ecclesiasticalculture 1550 to 1675 bound
choice election and Wittenbergtheological method from Martin
Luther to the formula ofConcord. Sources and contexts of
the Book of Concord, Concord,which he co edited with James
nest again, and teaching God'schildren his teaching, a guide
to study to the study of Lutherscatechism. And the list can go
(02:22):
on and on perhaps, where hisname is most seen on Lutheran
bookshelves today is on the Bookof Concord itself. He was one of
the directors and translatorsfor this most used English
edition today. He's also writtenmore than 100 articles and
collections of essays. One ofthe most recent articles is
titled, Wittenberg uses of lawand gospel, which was just
(02:43):
published in the fall edition ofthe 2023 Lutheran quarterly, and
that is the focus for today'spodcast episode. So let's know
more details than that, I'd liketo welcome you, Dr. Kolb, thank
you so much for joining us todayin the Lutheran History podcast.
Great to be with you. AndI should also add, I've had a
(03:03):
doctor called in two classes nowin my reduced residency program,
so I've had the pleasure oflearning from him in person. So
I'm happy to have this chance totalk some more, because I don't
have any more classes with youin my, in my schedule, so this
is a good little ketchup for meas well. All right, so are the
first thing I want to ask youabout today. Because you have
done so much work? You know, itseems like your life has been
(03:27):
dedicated to a historicaltheology is just this question,
what can you tell us about thevalue and importance of
historical theology?
Dr. Kolb (03:38):
We are, we're all concerned about our memories. As
I get older, that seems to be anincreasing concern. But our
whole personalities are reallyformed on the basis of what we
remember from our childhood fromour youth, and from our
experience throughout the years.
And so I think it's importantfor the church also, to have a
(03:58):
sense of memory of where theHoly Spirit has been working in
the past, and what the work ofthe Holy Spirit has done in
sustaining the church andbuilding the church and
spreading the church for fornow, 2000 years. And so there's
no situation in history, I thinkit's exactly like another
(04:21):
situation. But there are thereare similarities in the way that
the world works and the way thechurch works. And so we can
learn a lot from reflecting onboth the grace of God as we see
it in in human history ingeneral and in the history of
the church in particular. And wecan also be inspired to trust
(04:42):
that the Holy Spirit's at workeven when we don't understand
always what he's doing with thechurch and and get get some tips
on on how to address problems.
That even though they may not beexactly the same have parallels
(05:02):
in the history of the church.
Ben Phelps (05:06):
But thank you for that, that insight. Now,
specifically on to our topictoday, what led you to research
and write on the use of law andgospel in Wittenberg?
Dr. Kolb (05:19):
Well, some 50 years ago, when the Missouri Synod was
really being torn bycontroversy, one of the issues
was the third use of a law. Andalthough I've had a very close
friends, who have reacted to piartistic influences, that really
do turn some Lutheran Xenon onan evaluation of their own
(05:39):
performance, when they should belooking to the cross and the
empty tomb. So I'm sympatheticwith those who said, there are
really only two uses. And welearned what we should be doing
from the accusing force of thelaw and the curbing force of the
law. But then that controversyreally hasn't gone away, within
(06:02):
our own circles and in broaderLutheran and Protestant circles,
I would say. And so I've alwayshad that question sort of on my
mind, and then an invitationcame to speak to a pastoral
conference on the uses of thelaw. And so I thought I would
use that as the occasion to takeanother look at at exactly what
(06:24):
the 16th century texts have tosay. And, frankly, I was
surprised when I discovered thatI posed the question, how many
uses of the law did Lutherreally have? And found? The
answer is, actually none. Hedoesn't use the term. That's not
(06:47):
literally true, I think I foundtwo instances. And there
probably are a few more. But theconcept of use of the law was,
was present in in some medievaltheologians, but it hadn't
become a doctrinal category thatLuther was used to working with.
And so that brought me kind ofback to ground zero. And I had
(07:12):
to start thinking aboutquestions like, Well, what did
Luther do with the law, then?
Ben Phelps (07:19):
Yeah, could you please go into them? How did
Luther use the law and take asmuch time plays as you like,
because this is kind of theheart of the, you know, the
topic today, okay.
Dr. Kolb (07:33):
I had always taught that Luther had explicitly in
small called articles of 1537,he had two uses of the law, the
societal use, or the politicaluse, which has a positive effect
on people, because it it bringsorder to society, it makes us
(07:54):
behave that operates with, witha system of rewards and
punishments, and that, thatmakes society pleasant. Luther
also says in the small codearticles, that what actually
happens is sometimes the thisfirst use of the law, will, will
(08:16):
arouse resistance, what I liketo call the terrible twos of the
Christian life, where peoplehear God's law and say, I'm
going to assert my own identityand and, and not follow the law
do the opposite, perhaps. Andanother negative effect is that
what is given to us for orderingour lives on this earth is
(08:41):
sometimes taken to heaven andpresented to God as a reason why
he should like us. And so thatthat tendency for the law, also
to make us works righteous wasone of the things that Luther
noted as as, as a part of thework that the first use of the
(09:03):
law does. And then the seconduse the theological use, is that
which which needles us assinners, Philip Millington said,
the law is always accusing us.
It's always pointing out that wehave failed to be the people
that God created us to be inEden. And so, so those two uses,
Luther specifically talks aboutbut he doesn't call them uses.
(09:30):
He talks about their function,and about their power. And that
got me to thinking what's thedifference? And so when I was
translating the formula ofConcord for the 2000 translation
(09:51):
of the Book of Concord, thetraditional title For Article
Six had been on the third use ofthe law that was maligned 10s
language. And that's that's theissue that needed to be
addressed because controversiesin the 50s, and 60s and 70s. But
the previous translator of thetapper tradition, in 1959, it
(10:19):
was published, Arthur Carlpipcorn, who incidentally, also
shared this office or had thisoffice when I was a student, but
Dr. pipcorn, had translated the,the third function of the law.
Well, I wanted to lookbrilliant. And so I thought,
(10:40):
well, I'll find my own word andthought about the third impact
of the law, although I reallyliked function and was about
ready to go with that. But ifyou open the translation, you'll
find it says, third use of thelaw, why did I go back to the
third use of the law, becausethat's what the German says, and
that good translation tries tofollow up with what the original
(11:02):
text says. And as I was thinkingabout that, in the light of this
small called articles, a talkabout function and power, it
occurred to me that you and Imay use the law in its third use
to instruct its instructionaluse, we may just want to inform
(11:24):
our other people, otherChristians, what a god pleasing
life looks like. My example isthat you're giving the best
instruction ever given in yourcommunity on on the wonderful
gift of sexuality and how Godwants us to use this gift
properly, to a confirmationclass. And, and it's just such a
(11:50):
positive presentation. And oneof the one of the pupils,
students runs from the roomcrying and, and obviously,
struck by what you thought wasgood instruction, but it has
turned into either accusation,or pointing out that that person
(12:11):
has been abused, and, and parentor, or relative or someone has,
has broken God's law. And then Irealized that the function in my
mind, when the law is given tome, in whatever use is going to
make an impact on the way Ilive, it may cause me to run
(12:34):
away, it may cause me to, asLuther says, in the small code
articles rebelled against Godmore strongly. Or it may have
the impact of making me moreworks righteous. And so the the
brunt of of the article that youmentioned, is my trying to work
out this distinction of our useas witnesses to God's law, from
(12:59):
its function in the minds of ourhearers. And then the impact it
makes on on their lives.
Ben Phelps (13:11):
Right, so you gotta define divided, basically, and
how is it? What's what's thegoal of the word itself versus
how it's received? Is that Yeah,you're getting it.
Dr. Kolb (13:22):
Yeah. And we're not always sensitive enough to
listen to how it's functioningand what and noticing what the
impacts are. Yeah.
Ben Phelps (13:32):
Now, go go go off this pastoral tangent, that's
always hard when you'repreaching to a room have more
than one person in it, right?
Yes. You can't even well, evenone person's hard enough. How is
this going to be received? Rightis, is the issue. Right? And
that's, you know, that's where alot of this conversation goes
into. But I'm curious though,can you just share some of the
details of like, how did Lutherspeak? How did he talk about any
(13:54):
of those things? You know, it'sthe intention of the law. What
did get why does God have thelaw? Is that a natural thing? Or
is it just kind of an accidentalthing, or you know, all that,
all that stuff? I'd be veryinterested in hearing more.
Dr. Kolb (14:10):
Well, Luther believed very much that God had had, as
creator had designed human lifein a specific way. And so that
that design is reflected in thelaw. And so the hymn that we
sing by Mateus loi, a 19thcentury Lutheran theologian, the
(14:31):
law of God is always good,reflects exactly what Luther
thought. It's our sinfulreaction to it, that it is bad
that earns us the accusation andcondemnation of the law. So the
law was not given as a means ofsalvation. Adam and Eve didn't
have to serve a period ofprobation in Eden before, before
(14:56):
they got the title human. Theywere created as gods to
Children, human creatures, asGod wanted us to be. But the law
then came in, as sin made itnecessary to have an explicit
guide for what Adam and Eve justunderstood as the way we are.
And so the law does describe theway we should be the way God
(15:20):
designed the good human life.
And in that regard, when itfunctions as a guide, yet, it
moves us toward living a goodlife, on the basis of our
trusting in God. The problem is,of course, that we have turned
away from our God. And don't, wedon't want to let his word be
(15:41):
the point of orientation, Lutherthought that the original sin
and Eden was doubt of the Wordof God, defiance of our Creator.
And Luther thought that thatoriginal sin greets us every
day, when we wake and are notfearing, loving, and trusting in
(16:03):
God above all things. And soLuther did try to instruct the
people. And he instructed themnegatively by saying, Don't do
this. But he also instructedthem positively saying this is
this is the will of the Lord foryour lives, that you care for
one another, that you respectauthority, that you live
(16:23):
responsibly with your neighborsand the like. But Luther also
saw that the stronger your faithis, the more you're going to
want to trust God that you'reyou're his righteous child and
and obey Him. And as you turn tothe law for instruction in how
(16:44):
to live the good life that hedesigned for us, you're gonna
recognize that that law is stillaccusing you. It's still
crushing you. Because in thepast, you haven't, and in the
present here, not sure youreally want to serve Him in in
in complete and full obedience.
Ben Phelps (17:11):
Yeah, and I had, you know, I've had this conversation
with with people in the laypeople who had seemed to have
the impression that well, reallythe only law really only
commandment and Eden was thefruit law. Don't Don't eat this
fruit. Don't Don't touch that.
And I think I think that thatmaybe comes comes into play
here. When Luther talks aboutthe law, as you laid it out. It
(17:34):
is that language of returning orrecreating or even restoring
right, and I think you've madeit pretty clear that to Luther,
he was saying, this is justshowing you what, in a way your
identity we I think we veryoften think of our identity in
terms of the gospel, which isobviously necessary. But in a
(17:55):
way, he's saying it comes fullcircle, he that law also shows
you the goal of what God createdyou to be. Yeah, I
Dr. Kolb (18:08):
think the Germans didn't have a word for identity,
exactly. As it's not the exactequivalent of our concept of
identity today. Excuse me, butbut I think the word
righteousness comes fairlyclose. If a person is righteous,
(18:32):
we are what we're supposed to bewhat God designed us to be, what
God's righteousness is, hisbeing, what he really is, and
who he really is. And so Luthertalked about twofold identity or
a two fold righteousness, or twokinds of righteousness is the
(18:53):
way that Luthers workstranslates it. And the two kinds
of righteousness or he usesvarious terms, but But
basically, we can use the termsactive and passive. And our core
identity sort of our DNA, the,the identity we receive from our
(19:13):
parents that can't be changed,is our passive righteousness.
And that comes to us when Godforgives our sins, and promises
to be our God and promises thatwe will be His children in
baptism or whatever form of theword of the Gospel we may
encounter. So that core identitydoes come from the gospel, but
(19:36):
that core identity means thatthat's not one half of our life
and active righteousness. Theother half. It's a two fold
righteousness. It's a unitedperson that we are. And so
because we trust in God, we wewant to act like his children.
And so we have all kinds ofsecondary identities. Luthor
(20:00):
worked with the medieval socialtheory that our lives are our
society is divided into peoplein the household which included
family life and economic life,and then societal or political
life, and religious life, thecongregation. And so Luther saw
(20:21):
these, these doesn't use theterm secondary identities, but
he talks about them in such away, when he describes our
callings to, to be parents andspouses and to be shoemakers
and, and physicians and to becitizens or rulers, and to be
(20:44):
leaders in the church lay peoplewitnessing and worshiping. So So
Luther does have a rather fullsense of that, our righteousness
or our identity, and to reallycan't be separated. Truly God
pleasing works flow from faith.
But faith simply wants to acceptwhat what God gives as as a free
(21:11):
gift of new life, and then livethat new life. So you're right,
that they're just inseparablefor Luther.
Ben Phelps (21:26):
Yeah, from my limited exposure and study, it
seems to be really hard toproperly understand Luther, if
there's, you don't understandvocation to some degree.
Dr. Kolb (21:36):
That's true. Yeah.
Yeah.
Ben Phelps (21:38):
So going a little out of order of what I
previously planned to talkabout. I think this ties into
though the section where you gointo his use of the word shuold.
Get, can you define that term?
And explain where does it popup? What does it mean, because I
think I think that really getsinto what he's talking about
with law and vocation. I've
Dr. Kolb (22:00):
actually used the word for many, many years. Now, when
I've read and spoken German. Butit's only recently occurred to
me how, how deeply significant,the, we might say two sides of
the word from from thestandpoint of an English
speaker, the word sholde is itmeans guilt. But it also means
(22:26):
obligation. So Luther can eventalk about God's showed over and
against his human creatures,because God has promised and
when someone promises, he has anobligation to deliver on the
promise. And, and Luther picksup on this, so that he uses the
(22:54):
term as it was used by many,that it was the common usage of
the time, he picks up on thissense of obligation to say that
when when we have not fulfilledour obligations, there is this
burden of guilt. And so theobligation and guilt are two
sides of the same coin. Theobligation is there simply
(23:16):
because of who we are. And theguilt is there, when we don't
live up to being the person thatGod created us to be. And so
that the concept of guilty isvery important because it it is
what really separates us fromGod. I was a little surprised,
(23:38):
as I reflected on Luthersermons. I've done a much more
work on Luther sermons in thelast 10 years than I had
earlier. In his sermons, he, hetalks some about guilt, but not
a whole lot. He talks much more,as he's presenting the law of
God about fear. Now, one of thethings we're afraid of is the
(24:00):
wrath of God. And why is Godangry with us because of our
guilt. So indirectly, he'stalking about that. But when
he's addressing our emotionalstate, he's, he's dealing with
guilt, as fear. And so in NorthAmerica today, I think we tend
to think we're not all thatguilty, where we live a pretty
(24:23):
outwardly good life, at least.
And so we don't really have abig problem with guilt. But
Luthers sense of the obligationswe have goes much deeper than
just a superficial look at ouroutward behavior, it goes to the
very depths of our, ourintentions, our thinking, our
way of looking at the world.
And, and so what he's talkingabout is, whatever makes you
(24:50):
uneasy, whatever it takes yourpeace of mind away. Whatever it
is that that actually separatesyou from God. You Is the problem
that we're discussing thismorning. And the problem we're
discussing this morning can besolved only by going to the
cross of Christ, only by feelingthe breeze that that blows from
(25:12):
heaven through the, through theempty tomb into our lives, and
gives us the resurrected lifethat Christ one for us. And so
what I've just said shows howinter row woven, a sense of
align gospel is for Luther, withall human emotions, fear, love,
(25:34):
trust, fear, in the sense ofhonor and respect and fear and
the sense of being beingfrightened. So, so Luther really
is viewing us as, as wholepeople, sinners and saints at
the same time.
Ben Phelps (25:53):
Yeah, you know, there may be, in some cases, a
tendency when we talk aboutmaking a distinction between law
and gospel. And this issomething I'd fallen into, I
think, to, even as a student, oftrying to separate them, to the
degree that they're, they'resitting, like two at different
ends of the table. And that'snot really how it works,
(26:15):
especially enough not forLuther, you can't you don't just
dissect it and, and divide it todifferent parts and, and leave
them not touch each other.
Dr. Kolb (26:24):
Right? Because they really do. They do work
together. The law tells us whatthe problem is the gospel gives
us the solution. And then in thesolution. We, as we live out
that solution of being God'speople, again, we're still we're
(26:44):
still bothered by sinfulignorance and sinful wills. And
so we need that instruction,that they will turn to
accusation. But also we need tobe told, especially in our kind
of society, where there is wherethere are an absence of moral
(27:05):
guidance in the public square,we really need that instruction
very badly.
Ben Phelps (27:12):
I think you had mentioned it in our Luthers
justification class, it was agood illustration think we're
not living in that Leave It toBeaver world anymore, right?
Yes. Where you can just have thepublic consciousness or taboos
are whatever kind of serve thatthat guide or instruction or
whatever, you know, use you wantto label you want to put on it.
(27:33):
No one else is doing that. Andmaybe no one else was really
meant to be doing that. But wegot used to it that way. Well, I
think
Dr. Kolb (27:41):
an orderly society is in the interests of everyone.
And I think we don't reallyfully realize what we're doing
to ourselves by not by notenforcing some some standards
for decent societal behavior. Imean, the threats that you hear
(28:04):
from politicians against oneanother are just just
unthinkable in the Leave It toBeaver Dwight D. Eisenhower is
precedent. Your own which I grewup
Ben Phelps (28:19):
in? Yeah, I'm trying to think if I'm, yeah, I want to
move MUFON past this, oh, Iguess maybe you want to ask, you
know, just some of our listenersaren't there. They're armchair
theologians, or they're, youknow, casually interested in
history. But I think where youcan disconnect with everyone,
maybe back to the word wordshuold. As a guilt or a debt or
(28:44):
obligation, where we'll prettymuch every Lutheran have
encountered this word in theCatechism. And where does that
pop up? Is Luther uses it? Well,
Dr. Kolb (28:55):
the one of the most interesting uses is in the first
article, where we are surely weare, we are obligated, simply by
our nature, he created us tothank and praise to serve and
obey Him. And so that phraseshows the positive use of that
this is the intention, this isthe design for our humanity. And
(29:22):
then in the second article, thethose who haven't fulfilled
their obligation and who aresurely him that a guilty sense,
or have announced to them thatChrist died for their sin, He
shed His blood, not with agolden silver kind of commercial
(29:45):
payment, but the payment of thesoldier on the battlefield who,
who satisfied the judgment ofGod's law, that every sinner
must die, according to Romans623. And so you really move from
this positive sense ofobligation to, to the atoning
(30:06):
work of Christ. And then in thethird article of the Creed, you
develop the sense of the HolySpirit's action to bring us the
forgiveness of sins that thatends up in life everlasting.
Ben Phelps (30:24):
Yeah, and maybe I'm Miss adding it in, where does it
belong? But in the secondarticle, too, you know, he's
redeemed me. All that so now Iought to, to serve and obey him.
Yes.
Yeah. It's kind of like afeudal,
a feudal sense, right. And Ithink, you know, Luther was much
closer to the concept of theidea of a talk without
(30:45):
atonement, but redemption. I wasa slave to this, but now I, I,
he owns me, I belong to him.
There's just kind of a this isjust the way it is. It's
natural, unnatural obligation.
And I think that's hard to getacross to most people in America
that you have a naturalobligation don't have a right to
be free from something, butyou're naturally bound or tied
(31:09):
to something.
Dr. Kolb (31:10):
Yeah. Which is, is true freedom. But I think that's
something we miss also in thethe translation of the second
article, he has purchased in oneme, but the word there Vauban
that we translate, purchased,means purchased, but it has a
much fuller sense in simply takepossession. And he he takes
(31:34):
possession of us, so that I maybe his own and live under him
and his kingdom, and serve Himand everlasting righteousness,
innocence and blessedness. Sothat all does tie together
beautifully in that way.
Ben Phelps (31:52):
All right. Well, let's get back to the
overarching question. But Iguess the subtitle for this
could be did Luther have a thirduse of the law, which is kind of
the itching question, right?
People want it? And you saidalready? Well, he doesn't really
use the word use. Yeah. Anythingelse that you want to say about
how for Luther, what the law is?
(32:12):
And what it does before we getinto Langston and others? Yeah?
Dr. Kolb (32:18):
Well, I think we could say that A rose by any other
name is still a rose. And thelaw by any other name is still a
law. The Gospel talks about whatGod does for us, and the law
talks about what he expects usto do, as human creatures. And
(32:38):
so I think what Luther would sayis, as Christians when we're
sharing God's law with otherpeople, whether it be parents
with their children, orneighbors in conversation, or
pastors from the pulpit, we are,we're talking about human
action, and what God expects usto be doing. And we're not
(33:01):
talking about the Holy Spirit'sempowering us yet, we're simply
talking about my reaction towhat I have done or what I plan
to do. And in that, then we seethis obligation of God. And we
(33:21):
will react to it the functionthat it that it performs in us
and arouses some impact oranother, that that function is
simply to describe what Godexpects, and help us compare our
own lives to it. And in somecases, we will say, that
clarifies what I'm supposed todo, I'm so thankful. In other
(33:45):
instances, we will have to admitthat we failed in our obligation
as God's creatures and we willrecognize our guilt. Or we will
recognize that, maybe to ourshame, maybe simply in a
terrifying way, the abuse ofother people, the disobedience
(34:06):
of other people against God'scommands, have have cheapened
and shaped and damaged our senseof the fullness of life God can
give. And in the midst of thatkind of abuse or that kind of
victimization, we also flee tothe gospel, to have our worth
(34:27):
reaffirmed by the love of Godand Jesus Christ. And so, the
light those who speak the law,need to be somewhat clear on
what they intend to do that willjust help us present the law
more clearly. But we also haveto recognize that human life is
(34:49):
bigger than just our intentionsand that other people may hear
it. Do a different thing than weintended to the to their
unconsciousness. And then whatit does to their consciousness
will determine how they act inin varying ways. And so I think
(35:10):
Luther would say that there areyou use, I think Luther would
say, without numbering them, youuse the law to get the kids in
line, you use the law to helpthe kids repent, you use the
law, to help the kids understandwhat human life is really all
about. And in all those cases,you can separate the way you
(35:36):
intend to use the law, but whatyou intended to do, but the law
is going to do its own thing,the Holy Spirit is going to use
the law. And not always in linewith with preachers intention.
And so, so he didn't tell thepeople today I'm going to talk
about the third use of the law.
He just told them, the way theywere behaving in the marketplace
(35:58):
was was not Christian. And theyshould repent, and presumed that
when they repented, they wouldact properly and in the
marketplace, or he told themspecifically what they should be
doing with God's material giftsfor them, and knew that some of
them were going to go homefeeling feeling guilty, while
(36:18):
others were going to say, Oh,that's a really good idea I can
I can spend my money or use myshoemaking ability in that way.
And so I think Luther simplyuses the long leaves leaves to
the Holy Spirit, the way it'sgoing to function and its impact
on people.
Ben Phelps (36:43):
Yeah, so I guess that brings a follow up
question, since he is very, Imean, Luther is very aware and
self conscious of how guilt andburden out of conscience is, you
know, that's his own personal.
That's how he gets here, right?
Through the monastic system andall that, did he do anything
(37:03):
then, knowing I'm preaching andmay be received differently? Do
they do anything to I don't usetoo basic of a word, but to fix
it or to guard human consciencesin case he maybe had a certain
intention, or he thought thiswas very clear how I even framed
it, and yet it might possibly gothe other way. I,
Dr. Kolb (37:28):
I would say that as I've read his sermons,
particularly, but also hislectures to his students, he
didn't know why he was using it,how he was using it, the point
he wanted to make in thisparticular instance. But I think
he also realized that it wasgoing to hit different people in
different ways. And so he's,he's always returning to the
(37:52):
Gospel. And some of his sermonsare heavily law and little
gospel summer, or heavily gospelwith not very much instruction
or a call to repentance. Buthe's always got over a period of
time, when he's preaching, say,a weekly series on John or
Matthew, or sometimes, he me, hedidn't always preach every
(38:18):
Sunday, because there were otherpeople to preach at the town
Church in Wittenberg. But he,he's, he's aware that the Holy
Spirit is going to be using thelaw in different ways. And so
he's he's doing what he thinkshe's got to do at this point.
Ben Phelps (38:38):
Thank you for that clarification. So we'll get into
now, if Luther was not using theword use, yet how come Lutherans
are so used to using the worduse? Where you know, and this is
why you title your article,event and bear hug or Wittenberg
theology? Or does it pop up? Andhow is out of the people come up
(39:00):
with the term use? How do theymean it to be employed?
Dr. Kolb (39:04):
Well, one of the first real theological crises within
the Lutheran movement or theWittenberg circle of friends and
reformers, was the challenge ofone of the brightest and best of
Luther students, panic, Johannacurricula in the late 1520s, mid
fit mid to late 1520s. And theninto the 1530s. And a Greek
(39:29):
Allah got the message. The useof the law in the Middle Ages
was bad, and he came up with asolution. Christians don't need
to hear the law anymore. Now, hedidn't mean by that they can do
anything they want. He had avery strong sense of, of new
obedience, but he called it thegospel. In other words, key he
(39:52):
could lead. His views lead toconfusion about the distinction
of line gospel, and lead If yousaw that as the heart of the
message of God, for His people,and, and the confusion of law
and gospel was precisely whathad had driven him to despair,
and so he and Philip Melanconreacted pretty strongly and
(40:16):
Millington in 1528. And hisvisitation article said, we have
to call people to repentance, wehave to do that we have to tell
them what, what is right andwhat is wrong. Because so much
of the, of the instruction onthe Christian life in the Middle
Ages had focused on doing theright religious things going on
(40:38):
pilgrimages, giving alms and soforth. Instead of instead of on
being a good parent and spouse,being a good Shoemaker, or
physician, whatever, and and soa Greek Allah, I think he
(41:01):
probably wasn't as smart as asLutheran Millington thought he
was, and probably wasn't illwilled, although some personal
rivalries may have played intothe controversy. But how are we
going to make it clear that thelaw needs to be taught preached?
(41:24):
And how are we going to make itclear that that it instructs, as
well as calls to repentance andbrings order to society. And so
in the mid 1530s, in reaction toa Greco was challenged to the
way he and Luther understood thedistinction of law and gospel
(41:46):
Vilenkin taught that there arethese three uses, and that all
three of the uses still havetheir place, in bringing the
Word of God to a Christiancongregation, because we are in
this battle between sin andrighteousness that Paul
describes in Romans seven, andthat Luther describes with his
phrase, righteous and sinful atthe same time. And so Millington
(42:11):
was was the pedagogue, he wasthe one who, who was organizing
biblical materials to teach thepeople and, and so on the length
and said, well, Luther and I arestill trying to make people in
Wittenberg behave. And so we'reusing this political or societal
(42:32):
use of the law, and we arecertainly calling them to
repentance, and Millington wasthe one who said the law always
accuses and, and then inaddition, we are showing those
who want to obey God, how toobey God, what the will of God
is for our lives. ButMillington, to I think had this
(42:55):
sense that the law is the law.
And, and different ways we useit, do not determine how the
Holy Spirit's going to make itfunction in in the ears and
minds of our hearers. So, LutherMillington are often played off
against each other, but I don'tthink in their actual
(43:16):
presentation of law or law andgospel, there's much difference
at all. And they never noticedthey never got into any public
disputes about it. And so Ithink they were quite in harmony
on this point.
Ben Phelps (43:37):
I suppose you would think that working and living
with each other if they hadtotally different meanings, or
definitions that would have comeup. Okay. Well, if that's the
case, why have some in the pastand down to the state sought to
really distance Luther fromLangston on this issue?
Dr. Kolb (43:57):
I think it's because we have had to deal in North
America with this strong pioustradition, that that sometimes
not always, by any means, butsometimes caused Christians to,
to look to their own works intheir own new obedience to
(44:20):
measure how sure they could beof their salvation. And so the
concern that instead ofdirecting us to the cross of
Christ, when we ask who are we,the third use of the law had
served to direct us towardevaluating our relationship with
God on the basis of our works.
But also a factor was that in inEurope, the towering figure in
(44:43):
Protestant Christianity in the1920s already 30s 40s 50s into
the 60s, was a reformedtheologian, Karl Barth to talk
Not at Basel. And he, as aCalvinist, emphasize the third
use of the law and really said,The Gospel is of course
(45:08):
necessary. first use of thelarger second use of the law
that that's fine. The gospel isthere, but but where we really
need to focus on our obediencebecause of the third use of a
lot. And Lutherans like Wernerealert said, No. And they looked
at the texts and said, Lutherdidn't talk about a third use of
(45:31):
the law, which was literallycorrect. And, and so they said,
We are to talk about the fruitsof faith. So Penner Aylor, for
instance, wrote a book on theChristian ethos, which describes
the Christian life. But he seesthat as the fruit of faith, that
(45:51):
which which flows from ourtrusting in God and trusting his
absolution, that we really arerighteous people, then of
course, Luther uses thatlanguage too. So, so there's a
basis for that argument. But Ithink the way the argument was
(46:11):
pursued, it's not alwayshelpful. And so we need to look
to the needs of our people. Andtoday, certainly the society is
not giving them good moralinstruction, and they need it.
But we also need to realizeparticularly as, as Zales, or as
pastor, those giving spiritualcare to other Christians, we
(46:38):
need to recognize that the lawis always going to creep back in
and accuse and the more stronglyyour faith wants to produce the
fruits that are appropriatebecause God has forgiven you and
made you a new creature inChrist, the more likely it is
that you're going to recognizeyour own sinfulness. So Paul,
(46:58):
struggling Romans seven goes onfor all of us, throughout life,
and we can only say thanks be toGod, for Jesus Christ our
Savior.
Ben Phelps (47:11):
Yeah, I guess the point is, you never want to get
to the point where you feelcomfortable turning your back on
on Christ no matter what. Yeah,log, you know, law, gospel,
whatever use you know, you wereencountered, don't everything.
You need it. You can, you don'tneed the training wheels. You
don't need to be holding hishand or whatever. illustration.
Right. Yeah, I think that's, Ithink, hopefully, that's, that's
(47:33):
understood. But this iscertainly a timeless topic,
though. Because, yes, it's, youknow, 500 years from now, if
this is still around, we'restill around here. You know,
people can listen to this. And,you know, if they understand our
language will understand atleast the theological, you know,
issue, right. Yeah, absolutely.
So going back, though, to thosetrying to, you know, maybe it's
(47:56):
easier to say, Well, my LinkedInmessed up, but Luther had it,
right, in a certain degree.
That's kind of I've read atleast something like that. Is
this all, also part of a, anendeavor to make the law a
little more palatable? You know,it sounds a little, a little
(48:17):
harsh, shall we call it youknow, fruits of faith are turned
into another kind of gospel,imperative, or whatever? Way,
you want to rephrase it?
Dr. Kolb (48:29):
Yeah. That there again, I think whatever we call
it, it's still going to do thesame thing. It's, it's going to
be there as as God's plan forour lives. And we're going to
find that we don't live up toit. But we are going to find,
especially in a society, that,that doesn't provide us with
moral guidance in any meaningfulway, we are going to find that
(48:56):
we simply need to, to be lookingat the law for what the law is
designed to do. And it'sdesigned to, to reveal God's
design for human life. And we'vebeen find that we're not living
up to it, and you need to fleeto the cross of Christ. And
that, that, that circle of dailyrepentance, and return to the
(49:19):
cross, and the empty tomb issimply part of the biblical way
of looking at life.
Ben Phelps (49:28):
Yeah, and I think you tie that in towards the end
of your article with the simpleuse to separate cutter, you
know, point it's, it's both. Youneed it all. You need it all.
You know, don't, don't divideand conquer. Even, you know,
don't divide law gospel, don'tdivide justification,
sanctification, you have tounderstand the distinctiveness
of them, but don't try to brushone off to the side or divide
(49:51):
the law into three parts andjust cut one out and I'll put
that over here and I'll just,you know, yeah. 10 This is the
only one rightyeah, yeah. That doesn't work.
Yeah. All right. Well, Ithink we're coming to an end of
our time for this morning. And Igot her this afternoon, I should
say. But I think we've gotthrough most of the things that
wanted to talk about. Before myfinal question or two, anything,
(50:13):
anything that I missed it fordiscussion that you wanted to
share on the content of ourtalk? I
Dr. Kolb (50:21):
think that at the end of the article, I mentioned
something that I'm still wantingto explore, because I've just
barely begun to explore it. Butin one passage, Luther talks
about three things that thegospel does. So I think this use
of the gospel as a recreativeword, though, a word that
(50:43):
forgives our sins and restoresus to righteousness. And then
secondly, we use it to consolethose who have been restored to
righteousness in the midst ofall the struggles of this earth.
And then thirdly, it's it's theHoly Spirit's means of
empowering our Christian life. Ithink there might be something
there to think through use andfunction and impact. But I
(51:06):
haven't read Luther texts. Withthat in mind sufficiently to to
kind of develop the argumentthat I had in, in this Lutheran
quarterly article, at least onon the use of functions that
impact civil law.
Ben Phelps (51:22):
Alright, so those are some areas of further study
and, and discussion for thefuture.
Dr. Kolb (51:28):
Hey, I'm only 82 years old. Yeah, I haven't had all
that much time to learn. Yeah.
Ben Phelps (51:35):
But that being said, Are there any other topics or
subjects within the broaderrealm of Lutheran history that
you have been working on? Thatyou'd care to share today?
Dr. Kolb (51:46):
I, just this week, I'm writing an article for a
collected volume of collectedessays on the relationship of
the Creed's and Scripture. AndI'm trying to find out where the
term ecumenical creeds comesfrom. And I think it's a term
that the Lutherans inventedprobably in that sure
1530s 40s 50s. I know, becausesailmaker was actually lecturing
(52:11):
on the ecumenical creeds by the1560s, or 70s. So somewhere in
there, Lutherans in the searchfor a kind of secondary
authority, and Norman NormanMata, as the theologians call it
determined that the apostles,the Nicene, and the Athanasian
(52:34):
Creed would, would be thosekinds of public standards, along
with the rest of the Lutheranconfessions by the time we get
to your 1600 or 15. A. So that'sone of that the little detective
ventures that I'm involved in asI visit our library this week.
Ben Phelps (52:57):
All right. Very good. Well, thank you so much,
Dr. Kolb for joining us today totalk about this timeless topic
of timely, timeless topic Ishould say of Lutheran history
and the Christian faith.
Dr. Kolb (53:09):
Thank you, Ben. It was it was great fun.
Welcome to the Lutheran History podcast where
we cover over 500 years ofLutheran history. Our guest
today is Dr. Robert Kolb, who isa professor emeritus of
Systematic Theology at ConcordiaLutheran Seminary in St. Louis.
He received his master's degreeand master of sacred theology
from Concordia. He also earned aMaster of Arts and Dr.
(00:54):
Philosophy degree from theUniversity of Wisconsin in
Madison, has also receivedseveral honorary degrees as
well. Dr. Kolb retired in 2009,after 16 years of distinguished
service as a missions professorof Systematic Theology at
Concordia Lutheran seminary.
Before joining the seminary, hehad served as director of the
Center for reformation research,and in various teaching roles in
(01:17):
religion and history departmentsat Concordia College. St. Paul,
Minnesota, is taken much timeover many years to teach abroad.
He's also been involved inseveral boards, including
serving both officially onbehalf of the Lutheran Church
Missouri Synod on commissions,and as a leader of 16th century
and reformation societies.
(01:38):
There's certainly not enoughtime to list everything he has
written, but I included aselection today. He is the
author of several books,including Christian faith,
Lutheran exposition, the geniusof Lutheran theology, Wittenberg
way of thinking for thecontemporary church, studies of
the interpretation of HolyScripture in the 16th and 17th
(01:58):
century, Lutheran ecclesiasticalculture 1550 to 1675 bound
choice election and Wittenbergtheological method from Martin
Luther to the formula ofConcord. Sources and contexts of
the Book of Concord, Concord,which he co edited with James
nest again, and teaching God'schildren his teaching, a guide
to study to the study of Lutherscatechism. And the list can go
(02:22):
on and on perhaps, where hisname is most seen on Lutheran
bookshelves today is on the Bookof Concord itself. He was one of
the directors and translatorsfor this most used English
edition today. He's also writtenmore than 100 articles and
collections of essays. One ofthe most recent articles is
titled, Wittenberg uses of lawand gospel, which was just
(02:43):
published in the fall edition ofthe 2023 Lutheran quarterly, and
that is the focus for today'spodcast episode. So let's know
more details than that, I'd liketo welcome you, Dr. Kolb, thank
you so much for joining us todayin the Lutheran History podcast.
Great to be with you. AndI should also add, I've had a
(03:03):
doctor called in two classes nowin my reduced residency program,
so I've had the pleasure oflearning from him in person. So
I'm happy to have this chance totalk some more, because I don't
have any more classes with youin my, in my schedule, so this
is a good little ketchup for meas well. All right, so are the
first thing I want to ask youabout today. Because you have
done so much work? You know, itseems like your life has been
(03:27):
dedicated to a historicaltheology is just this question,
what can you tell us about thevalue and importance of
historical theology?
Dr. Kolb (03:38):
We are, we're all concerned about our memories. As
I get older, that seems to be anincreasing concern. But our
whole personalities are reallyformed on the basis of what we
remember from our childhood fromour youth, and from our
experience throughout the years.
And so I think it's importantfor the church also, to have a
(03:58):
sense of memory of where theHoly Spirit has been working in
the past, and what the work ofthe Holy Spirit has done in
sustaining the church andbuilding the church and
spreading the church for fornow, 2000 years. And so there's
no situation in history, I thinkit's exactly like another
(04:21):
situation. But there are thereare similarities in the way that
the world works and the way thechurch works. And so we can
learn a lot from reflecting onboth the grace of God as we see
it in in human history ingeneral and in the history of
the church in particular. And wecan also be inspired to trust
(04:42):
that the Holy Spirit's at workeven when we don't understand
always what he's doing with thechurch and and get get some tips
on on how to address problems.
That even though they may not beexactly the same have parallels
(05:02):
in the history of the church.
Ben Phelps (05:06):
But thank you for that, that insight. Now,
specifically on to our topictoday, what led you to research
and write on the use of law andgospel in Wittenberg?
Dr. Kolb (05:19):
Well, some 50 years ago, when the Missouri Synod was
really being torn bycontroversy, one of the issues
was the third use of a law. Andalthough I've had a very close
friends, who have reacted to piartistic influences, that really
do turn some Lutheran Xenon onan evaluation of their own
(05:39):
performance, when they should belooking to the cross and the
empty tomb. So I'm sympatheticwith those who said, there are
really only two uses. And welearned what we should be doing
from the accusing force of thelaw and the curbing force of the
law. But then that controversyreally hasn't gone away, within
(06:02):
our own circles and in broaderLutheran and Protestant circles,
I would say. And so I've alwayshad that question sort of on my
mind, and then an invitationcame to speak to a pastoral
conference on the uses of thelaw. And so I thought I would
use that as the occasion to takeanother look at at exactly what
(06:24):
the 16th century texts have tosay. And, frankly, I was
surprised when I discovered thatI posed the question, how many
uses of the law did Lutherreally have? And found? The
answer is, actually none. Hedoesn't use the term. That's not
(06:47):
literally true, I think I foundtwo instances. And there
probably are a few more. But theconcept of use of the law was,
was present in in some medievaltheologians, but it hadn't
become a doctrinal category thatLuther was used to working with.
And so that brought me kind ofback to ground zero. And I had
(07:12):
to start thinking aboutquestions like, Well, what did
Luther do with the law, then?
Ben Phelps (07:19):
Yeah, could you please go into them? How did
Luther use the law and take asmuch time plays as you like,
because this is kind of theheart of the, you know, the
topic today, okay.
Dr. Kolb (07:33):
I had always taught that Luther had explicitly in
small called articles of 1537,he had two uses of the law, the
societal use, or the politicaluse, which has a positive effect
on people, because it it bringsorder to society, it makes us
(07:54):
behave that operates with, witha system of rewards and
punishments, and that, thatmakes society pleasant. Luther
also says in the small codearticles, that what actually
happens is sometimes the thisfirst use of the law, will, will
(08:16):
arouse resistance, what I liketo call the terrible twos of the
Christian life, where peoplehear God's law and say, I'm
going to assert my own identityand and, and not follow the law
do the opposite, perhaps. Andanother negative effect is that
what is given to us for orderingour lives on this earth is
(08:41):
sometimes taken to heaven andpresented to God as a reason why
he should like us. And so thatthat tendency for the law, also
to make us works righteous wasone of the things that Luther
noted as as, as a part of thework that the first use of the
(09:03):
law does. And then the seconduse the theological use, is that
which which needles us assinners, Philip Millington said,
the law is always accusing us.
It's always pointing out that wehave failed to be the people
that God created us to be inEden. And so, so those two uses,
Luther specifically talks aboutbut he doesn't call them uses.
(09:30):
He talks about their function,and about their power. And that
got me to thinking what's thedifference? And so when I was
translating the formula ofConcord for the 2000 translation
(09:51):
of the Book of Concord, thetraditional title For Article
Six had been on the third use ofthe law that was maligned 10s
language. And that's that's theissue that needed to be
addressed because controversiesin the 50s, and 60s and 70s. But
the previous translator of thetapper tradition, in 1959, it
(10:19):
was published, Arthur Carlpipcorn, who incidentally, also
shared this office or had thisoffice when I was a student, but
Dr. pipcorn, had translated the,the third function of the law.
Well, I wanted to lookbrilliant. And so I thought,
(10:40):
well, I'll find my own word andthought about the third impact
of the law, although I reallyliked function and was about
ready to go with that. But ifyou open the translation, you'll
find it says, third use of thelaw, why did I go back to the
third use of the law, becausethat's what the German says, and
that good translation tries tofollow up with what the original
(11:02):
text says. And as I was thinkingabout that, in the light of this
small called articles, a talkabout function and power, it
occurred to me that you and Imay use the law in its third use
to instruct its instructionaluse, we may just want to inform
(11:24):
our other people, otherChristians, what a god pleasing
life looks like. My example isthat you're giving the best
instruction ever given in yourcommunity on on the wonderful
gift of sexuality and how Godwants us to use this gift
properly, to a confirmationclass. And, and it's just such a
(11:50):
positive presentation. And oneof the one of the pupils,
students runs from the roomcrying and, and obviously,
struck by what you thought wasgood instruction, but it has
turned into either accusation,or pointing out that that person
(12:11):
has been abused, and, and parentor, or relative or someone has,
has broken God's law. And then Irealized that the function in my
mind, when the law is given tome, in whatever use is going to
make an impact on the way Ilive, it may cause me to run
(12:34):
away, it may cause me to, asLuther says, in the small code
articles rebelled against Godmore strongly. Or it may have
the impact of making me moreworks righteous. And so the the
brunt of of the article that youmentioned, is my trying to work
out this distinction of our useas witnesses to God's law, from
(12:59):
its function in the minds of ourhearers. And then the impact it
makes on on their lives.
Ben Phelps (13:11):
Right, so you gotta define divided, basically, and
how is it? What's what's thegoal of the word itself versus
how it's received? Is that Yeah,you're getting it.
Dr. Kolb (13:22):
Yeah. And we're not always sensitive enough to
listen to how it's functioningand what and noticing what the
impacts are. Yeah.
Ben Phelps (13:32):
Now, go go go off this pastoral tangent, that's
always hard when you'repreaching to a room have more
than one person in it, right?
Yes. You can't even well, evenone person's hard enough. How is
this going to be received? Rightis, is the issue. Right? And
that's, you know, that's where alot of this conversation goes
into. But I'm curious though,can you just share some of the
details of like, how did Lutherspeak? How did he talk about any
(13:54):
of those things? You know, it'sthe intention of the law. What
did get why does God have thelaw? Is that a natural thing? Or
is it just kind of an accidentalthing, or you know, all that,
all that stuff? I'd be veryinterested in hearing more.
Dr. Kolb (14:10):
Well, Luther believed very much that God had had, as
creator had designed human lifein a specific way. And so that
that design is reflected in thelaw. And so the hymn that we
sing by Mateus loi, a 19thcentury Lutheran theologian, the
(14:31):
law of God is always good,reflects exactly what Luther
thought. It's our sinfulreaction to it, that it is bad
that earns us the accusation andcondemnation of the law. So the
law was not given as a means ofsalvation. Adam and Eve didn't
have to serve a period ofprobation in Eden before, before
(14:56):
they got the title human. Theywere created as gods to
Children, human creatures, asGod wanted us to be. But the law
then came in, as sin made itnecessary to have an explicit
guide for what Adam and Eve justunderstood as the way we are.
And so the law does describe theway we should be the way God
(15:20):
designed the good human life.
And in that regard, when itfunctions as a guide, yet, it
moves us toward living a goodlife, on the basis of our
trusting in God. The problem is,of course, that we have turned
away from our God. And don't, wedon't want to let his word be
(15:41):
the point of orientation, Lutherthought that the original sin
and Eden was doubt of the Wordof God, defiance of our Creator.
And Luther thought that thatoriginal sin greets us every
day, when we wake and are notfearing, loving, and trusting in
(16:03):
God above all things. And soLuther did try to instruct the
people. And he instructed themnegatively by saying, Don't do
this. But he also instructedthem positively saying this is
this is the will of the Lord foryour lives, that you care for
one another, that you respectauthority, that you live
(16:23):
responsibly with your neighborsand the like. But Luther also
saw that the stronger your faithis, the more you're going to
want to trust God that you'reyou're his righteous child and
and obey Him. And as you turn tothe law for instruction in how
(16:44):
to live the good life that hedesigned for us, you're gonna
recognize that that law is stillaccusing you. It's still
crushing you. Because in thepast, you haven't, and in the
present here, not sure youreally want to serve Him in in
in complete and full obedience.
Ben Phelps (17:11):
Yeah, and I had, you know, I've had this conversation
with with people in the laypeople who had seemed to have
the impression that well, reallythe only law really only
commandment and Eden was thefruit law. Don't Don't eat this
fruit. Don't Don't touch that.
And I think I think that thatmaybe comes comes into play
here. When Luther talks aboutthe law, as you laid it out. It
(17:34):
is that language of returning orrecreating or even restoring
right, and I think you've madeit pretty clear that to Luther,
he was saying, this is justshowing you what, in a way your
identity we I think we veryoften think of our identity in
terms of the gospel, which isobviously necessary. But in a
(17:55):
way, he's saying it comes fullcircle, he that law also shows
you the goal of what God createdyou to be. Yeah, I
Dr. Kolb (18:08):
think the Germans didn't have a word for identity,
exactly. As it's not the exactequivalent of our concept of
identity today. Excuse me, butbut I think the word
righteousness comes fairlyclose. If a person is righteous,
(18:32):
we are what we're supposed to bewhat God designed us to be, what
God's righteousness is, hisbeing, what he really is, and
who he really is. And so Luthertalked about twofold identity or
a two fold righteousness, or twokinds of righteousness is the
(18:53):
way that Luthers workstranslates it. And the two kinds
of righteousness or he usesvarious terms, but But
basically, we can use the termsactive and passive. And our core
identity sort of our DNA, the,the identity we receive from our
(19:13):
parents that can't be changed,is our passive righteousness.
And that comes to us when Godforgives our sins, and promises
to be our God and promises thatwe will be His children in
baptism or whatever form of theword of the Gospel we may
encounter. So that core identitydoes come from the gospel, but
(19:36):
that core identity means thatthat's not one half of our life
and active righteousness. Theother half. It's a two fold
righteousness. It's a unitedperson that we are. And so
because we trust in God, we wewant to act like his children.
And so we have all kinds ofsecondary identities. Luthor
(20:00):
worked with the medieval socialtheory that our lives are our
society is divided into peoplein the household which included
family life and economic life,and then societal or political
life, and religious life, thecongregation. And so Luther saw
(20:21):
these, these doesn't use theterm secondary identities, but
he talks about them in such away, when he describes our
callings to, to be parents andspouses and to be shoemakers
and, and physicians and to becitizens or rulers, and to be
(20:44):
leaders in the church lay peoplewitnessing and worshiping. So So
Luther does have a rather fullsense of that, our righteousness
or our identity, and to reallycan't be separated. Truly God
pleasing works flow from faith.
But faith simply wants to acceptwhat what God gives as as a free
(21:11):
gift of new life, and then livethat new life. So you're right,
that they're just inseparablefor Luther.
Ben Phelps (21:26):
Yeah, from my limited exposure and study, it
seems to be really hard toproperly understand Luther, if
there's, you don't understandvocation to some degree.
Dr. Kolb (21:36):
That's true. Yeah.
Yeah.
Ben Phelps (21:38):
So going a little out of order of what I
previously planned to talkabout. I think this ties into
though the section where you gointo his use of the word shuold.
Get, can you define that term?
And explain where does it popup? What does it mean, because I
think I think that really getsinto what he's talking about
with law and vocation. I've
Dr. Kolb (22:00):
actually used the word for many, many years. Now, when
I've read and spoken German. Butit's only recently occurred to
me how, how deeply significant,the, we might say two sides of
the word from from thestandpoint of an English
speaker, the word sholde is itmeans guilt. But it also means
(22:26):
obligation. So Luther can eventalk about God's showed over and
against his human creatures,because God has promised and
when someone promises, he has anobligation to deliver on the
promise. And, and Luther picksup on this, so that he uses the
(22:54):
term as it was used by many,that it was the common usage of
the time, he picks up on thissense of obligation to say that
when when we have not fulfilledour obligations, there is this
burden of guilt. And so theobligation and guilt are two
sides of the same coin. Theobligation is there simply
(23:16):
because of who we are. And theguilt is there, when we don't
live up to being the person thatGod created us to be. And so
that the concept of guilty isvery important because it it is
what really separates us fromGod. I was a little surprised,
(23:38):
as I reflected on Luthersermons. I've done a much more
work on Luther sermons in thelast 10 years than I had
earlier. In his sermons, he, hetalks some about guilt, but not
a whole lot. He talks much more,as he's presenting the law of
God about fear. Now, one of thethings we're afraid of is the
(24:00):
wrath of God. And why is Godangry with us because of our
guilt. So indirectly, he'stalking about that. But when
he's addressing our emotionalstate, he's, he's dealing with
guilt, as fear. And so in NorthAmerica today, I think we tend
to think we're not all thatguilty, where we live a pretty
(24:23):
outwardly good life, at least.
And so we don't really have abig problem with guilt. But
Luthers sense of the obligationswe have goes much deeper than
just a superficial look at ouroutward behavior, it goes to the
very depths of our, ourintentions, our thinking, our
way of looking at the world.
And, and so what he's talkingabout is, whatever makes you
(24:50):
uneasy, whatever it takes yourpeace of mind away. Whatever it
is that that actually separatesyou from God. You Is the problem
that we're discussing thismorning. And the problem we're
discussing this morning can besolved only by going to the
cross of Christ, only by feelingthe breeze that that blows from
(25:12):
heaven through the, through theempty tomb into our lives, and
gives us the resurrected lifethat Christ one for us. And so
what I've just said shows howinter row woven, a sense of
align gospel is for Luther, withall human emotions, fear, love,
(25:34):
trust, fear, in the sense ofhonor and respect and fear and
the sense of being beingfrightened. So, so Luther really
is viewing us as, as wholepeople, sinners and saints at
the same time.
Ben Phelps (25:53):
Yeah, you know, there may be, in some cases, a
tendency when we talk aboutmaking a distinction between law
and gospel. And this issomething I'd fallen into, I
think, to, even as a student, oftrying to separate them, to the
degree that they're, they'resitting, like two at different
ends of the table. And that'snot really how it works,
(26:15):
especially enough not forLuther, you can't you don't just
dissect it and, and divide it todifferent parts and, and leave
them not touch each other.
Dr. Kolb (26:24):
Right? Because they really do. They do work
together. The law tells us whatthe problem is the gospel gives
us the solution. And then in thesolution. We, as we live out
that solution of being God'speople, again, we're still we're
(26:44):
still bothered by sinfulignorance and sinful wills. And
so we need that instruction,that they will turn to
accusation. But also we need tobe told, especially in our kind
of society, where there is wherethere are an absence of moral
(27:05):
guidance in the public square,we really need that instruction
very badly.
Ben Phelps (27:12):
I think you had mentioned it in our Luthers
justification class, it was agood illustration think we're
not living in that Leave It toBeaver world anymore, right?
Yes. Where you can just have thepublic consciousness or taboos
are whatever kind of serve thatthat guide or instruction or
whatever, you know, use you wantto label you want to put on it.
(27:33):
No one else is doing that. Andmaybe no one else was really
meant to be doing that. But wegot used to it that way. Well, I
think
Dr. Kolb (27:41):
an orderly society is in the interests of everyone.
And I think we don't reallyfully realize what we're doing
to ourselves by not by notenforcing some some standards
for decent societal behavior. Imean, the threats that you hear
(28:04):
from politicians against oneanother are just just
unthinkable in the Leave It toBeaver Dwight D. Eisenhower is
precedent. Your own which I grewup
Ben Phelps (28:19):
in? Yeah, I'm trying to think if I'm, yeah, I want to
move MUFON past this, oh, Iguess maybe you want to ask, you
know, just some of our listenersaren't there. They're armchair
theologians, or they're, youknow, casually interested in
history. But I think where youcan disconnect with everyone,
maybe back to the word wordshuold. As a guilt or a debt or
(28:44):
obligation, where we'll prettymuch every Lutheran have
encountered this word in theCatechism. And where does that
pop up? Is Luther uses it? Well,
Dr. Kolb (28:55):
the one of the most interesting uses is in the first
article, where we are surely weare, we are obligated, simply by
our nature, he created us tothank and praise to serve and
obey Him. And so that phraseshows the positive use of that
this is the intention, this isthe design for our humanity. And
(29:22):
then in the second article, thethose who haven't fulfilled
their obligation and who aresurely him that a guilty sense,
or have announced to them thatChrist died for their sin, He
shed His blood, not with agolden silver kind of commercial
(29:45):
payment, but the payment of thesoldier on the battlefield who,
who satisfied the judgment ofGod's law, that every sinner
must die, according to Romans623. And so you really move from
this positive sense ofobligation to, to the atoning
(30:06):
work of Christ. And then in thethird article of the Creed, you
develop the sense of the HolySpirit's action to bring us the
forgiveness of sins that thatends up in life everlasting.
Ben Phelps (30:24):
Yeah, and maybe I'm Miss adding it in, where does it
belong? But in the secondarticle, too, you know, he's
redeemed me. All that so now Iought to, to serve and obey him.
Yes.
Yeah. It's kind of like afeudal,
a feudal sense, right. And Ithink, you know, Luther was much
closer to the concept of theidea of a talk without
(30:45):
atonement, but redemption. I wasa slave to this, but now I, I,
he owns me, I belong to him.
There's just kind of a this isjust the way it is. It's
natural, unnatural obligation.
And I think that's hard to getacross to most people in America
that you have a naturalobligation don't have a right to
be free from something, butyou're naturally bound or tied
(31:09):
to something.
Dr. Kolb (31:10):
Yeah. Which is, is true freedom. But I think that's
something we miss also in thethe translation of the second
article, he has purchased in oneme, but the word there Vauban
that we translate, purchased,means purchased, but it has a
much fuller sense in simply takepossession. And he he takes
(31:34):
possession of us, so that I maybe his own and live under him
and his kingdom, and serve Himand everlasting righteousness,
innocence and blessedness. Sothat all does tie together
beautifully in that way.
Ben Phelps (31:52):
All right. Well, let's get back to the
overarching question. But Iguess the subtitle for this
could be did Luther have a thirduse of the law, which is kind of
the itching question, right?
People want it? And you saidalready? Well, he doesn't really
use the word use. Yeah. Anythingelse that you want to say about
how for Luther, what the law is?
(32:12):
And what it does before we getinto Langston and others? Yeah?
Dr. Kolb (32:18):
Well, I think we could say that A rose by any other
name is still a rose. And thelaw by any other name is still a
law. The Gospel talks about whatGod does for us, and the law
talks about what he expects usto do, as human creatures. And
(32:38):
so I think what Luther would sayis, as Christians when we're
sharing God's law with otherpeople, whether it be parents
with their children, orneighbors in conversation, or
pastors from the pulpit, we are,we're talking about human
action, and what God expects usto be doing. And we're not
(33:01):
talking about the Holy Spirit'sempowering us yet, we're simply
talking about my reaction towhat I have done or what I plan
to do. And in that, then we seethis obligation of God. And we
(33:21):
will react to it the functionthat it that it performs in us
and arouses some impact oranother, that that function is
simply to describe what Godexpects, and help us compare our
own lives to it. And in somecases, we will say, that
clarifies what I'm supposed todo, I'm so thankful. In other
(33:45):
instances, we will have to admitthat we failed in our obligation
as God's creatures and we willrecognize our guilt. Or we will
recognize that, maybe to ourshame, maybe simply in a
terrifying way, the abuse ofother people, the disobedience
(34:06):
of other people against God'scommands, have have cheapened
and shaped and damaged our senseof the fullness of life God can
give. And in the midst of thatkind of abuse or that kind of
victimization, we also flee tothe gospel, to have our worth
(34:27):
reaffirmed by the love of Godand Jesus Christ. And so, the
light those who speak the law,need to be somewhat clear on
what they intend to do that willjust help us present the law
more clearly. But we also haveto recognize that human life is
(34:49):
bigger than just our intentionsand that other people may hear
it. Do a different thing than weintended to the to their
unconsciousness. And then whatit does to their consciousness
will determine how they act inin varying ways. And so I think
(35:10):
Luther would say that there areyou use, I think Luther would
say, without numbering them, youuse the law to get the kids in
line, you use the law to helpthe kids repent, you use the
law, to help the kids understandwhat human life is really all
about. And in all those cases,you can separate the way you
(35:36):
intend to use the law, but whatyou intended to do, but the law
is going to do its own thing,the Holy Spirit is going to use
the law. And not always in linewith with preachers intention.
And so, so he didn't tell thepeople today I'm going to talk
about the third use of the law.
He just told them, the way theywere behaving in the marketplace
(35:58):
was was not Christian. And theyshould repent, and presumed that
when they repented, they wouldact properly and in the
marketplace, or he told themspecifically what they should be
doing with God's material giftsfor them, and knew that some of
them were going to go homefeeling feeling guilty, while
(36:18):
others were going to say, Oh,that's a really good idea I can
I can spend my money or use myshoemaking ability in that way.
And so I think Luther simplyuses the long leaves leaves to
the Holy Spirit, the way it'sgoing to function and its impact
on people.
Ben Phelps (36:43):
Yeah, so I guess that brings a follow up
question, since he is very, Imean, Luther is very aware and
self conscious of how guilt andburden out of conscience is, you
know, that's his own personal.
That's how he gets here, right?
Through the monastic system andall that, did he do anything
(37:03):
then, knowing I'm preaching andmay be received differently? Do
they do anything to I don't usetoo basic of a word, but to fix
it or to guard human consciencesin case he maybe had a certain
intention, or he thought thiswas very clear how I even framed
it, and yet it might possibly gothe other way. I,
Dr. Kolb (37:28):
I would say that as I've read his sermons,
particularly, but also hislectures to his students, he
didn't know why he was using it,how he was using it, the point
he wanted to make in thisparticular instance. But I think
he also realized that it wasgoing to hit different people in
different ways. And so he's,he's always returning to the
(37:52):
Gospel. And some of his sermonsare heavily law and little
gospel summer, or heavily gospelwith not very much instruction
or a call to repentance. Buthe's always got over a period of
time, when he's preaching, say,a weekly series on John or
Matthew, or sometimes, he me, hedidn't always preach every
(38:18):
Sunday, because there were otherpeople to preach at the town
Church in Wittenberg. But he,he's, he's aware that the Holy
Spirit is going to be using thelaw in different ways. And so
he's he's doing what he thinkshe's got to do at this point.
Ben Phelps (38:38):
Thank you for that clarification. So we'll get into
now, if Luther was not using theword use, yet how come Lutherans
are so used to using the worduse? Where you know, and this is
why you title your article,event and bear hug or Wittenberg
theology? Or does it pop up? Andhow is out of the people come up
(39:00):
with the term use? How do theymean it to be employed?
Dr. Kolb (39:04):
Well, one of the first real theological crises within
the Lutheran movement or theWittenberg circle of friends and
reformers, was the challenge ofone of the brightest and best of
Luther students, panic, Johannacurricula in the late 1520s, mid
fit mid to late 1520s. And theninto the 1530s. And a Greek
(39:29):
Allah got the message. The useof the law in the Middle Ages
was bad, and he came up with asolution. Christians don't need
to hear the law anymore. Now, hedidn't mean by that they can do
anything they want. He had avery strong sense of, of new
obedience, but he called it thegospel. In other words, key he
(39:52):
could lead. His views lead toconfusion about the distinction
of line gospel, and lead If yousaw that as the heart of the
message of God, for His people,and, and the confusion of law
and gospel was precisely whathad had driven him to despair,
and so he and Philip Melanconreacted pretty strongly and
(40:16):
Millington in 1528. And hisvisitation article said, we have
to call people to repentance, wehave to do that we have to tell
them what, what is right andwhat is wrong. Because so much
of the, of the instruction onthe Christian life in the Middle
Ages had focused on doing theright religious things going on
(40:38):
pilgrimages, giving alms and soforth. Instead of instead of on
being a good parent and spouse,being a good Shoemaker, or
physician, whatever, and and soa Greek Allah, I think he
(41:01):
probably wasn't as smart as asLutheran Millington thought he
was, and probably wasn't illwilled, although some personal
rivalries may have played intothe controversy. But how are we
going to make it clear that thelaw needs to be taught preached?
(41:24):
And how are we going to make itclear that that it instructs, as
well as calls to repentance andbrings order to society. And so
in the mid 1530s, in reaction toa Greco was challenged to the
way he and Luther understood thedistinction of law and gospel
(41:46):
Vilenkin taught that there arethese three uses, and that all
three of the uses still havetheir place, in bringing the
Word of God to a Christiancongregation, because we are in
this battle between sin andrighteousness that Paul
describes in Romans seven, andthat Luther describes with his
phrase, righteous and sinful atthe same time. And so Millington
(42:11):
was was the pedagogue, he wasthe one who, who was organizing
biblical materials to teach thepeople and, and so on the length
and said, well, Luther and I arestill trying to make people in
Wittenberg behave. And so we'reusing this political or societal
(42:32):
use of the law, and we arecertainly calling them to
repentance, and Millington wasthe one who said the law always
accuses and, and then inaddition, we are showing those
who want to obey God, how toobey God, what the will of God
is for our lives. ButMillington, to I think had this
(42:55):
sense that the law is the law.
And, and different ways we useit, do not determine how the
Holy Spirit's going to make itfunction in in the ears and
minds of our hearers. So, LutherMillington are often played off
against each other, but I don'tthink in their actual
(43:16):
presentation of law or law andgospel, there's much difference
at all. And they never noticedthey never got into any public
disputes about it. And so Ithink they were quite in harmony
on this point.
Ben Phelps (43:37):
I suppose you would think that working and living
with each other if they hadtotally different meanings, or
definitions that would have comeup. Okay. Well, if that's the
case, why have some in the pastand down to the state sought to
really distance Luther fromLangston on this issue?
Dr. Kolb (43:57):
I think it's because we have had to deal in North
America with this strong pioustradition, that that sometimes
not always, by any means, butsometimes caused Christians to,
to look to their own works intheir own new obedience to
(44:20):
measure how sure they could beof their salvation. And so the
concern that instead ofdirecting us to the cross of
Christ, when we ask who are we,the third use of the law had
served to direct us towardevaluating our relationship with
God on the basis of our works.
But also a factor was that in inEurope, the towering figure in
(44:43):
Protestant Christianity in the1920s already 30s 40s 50s into
the 60s, was a reformedtheologian, Karl Barth to talk
Not at Basel. And he, as aCalvinist, emphasize the third
use of the law and really said,The Gospel is of course
(45:08):
necessary. first use of thelarger second use of the law
that that's fine. The gospel isthere, but but where we really
need to focus on our obediencebecause of the third use of a
lot. And Lutherans like Wernerealert said, No. And they looked
at the texts and said, Lutherdidn't talk about a third use of
(45:31):
the law, which was literallycorrect. And, and so they said,
We are to talk about the fruitsof faith. So Penner Aylor, for
instance, wrote a book on theChristian ethos, which describes
the Christian life. But he seesthat as the fruit of faith, that
(45:51):
which which flows from ourtrusting in God and trusting his
absolution, that we really arerighteous people, then of
course, Luther uses thatlanguage too. So, so there's a
basis for that argument. But Ithink the way the argument was
(46:11):
pursued, it's not alwayshelpful. And so we need to look
to the needs of our people. Andtoday, certainly the society is
not giving them good moralinstruction, and they need it.
But we also need to realizeparticularly as, as Zales, or as
pastor, those giving spiritualcare to other Christians, we
(46:38):
need to recognize that the lawis always going to creep back in
and accuse and the more stronglyyour faith wants to produce the
fruits that are appropriatebecause God has forgiven you and
made you a new creature inChrist, the more likely it is
that you're going to recognizeyour own sinfulness. So Paul,
(46:58):
struggling Romans seven goes onfor all of us, throughout life,
and we can only say thanks be toGod, for Jesus Christ our
Savior.
Ben Phelps (47:11):
Yeah, I guess the point is, you never want to get
to the point where you feelcomfortable turning your back on
on Christ no matter what. Yeah,log, you know, law, gospel,
whatever use you know, you wereencountered, don't everything.
You need it. You can, you don'tneed the training wheels. You
don't need to be holding hishand or whatever. illustration.
Right. Yeah, I think that's, Ithink, hopefully, that's, that's
(47:33):
understood. But this iscertainly a timeless topic,
though. Because, yes, it's, youknow, 500 years from now, if
this is still around, we'restill around here. You know,
people can listen to this. And,you know, if they understand our
language will understand atleast the theological, you know,
issue, right. Yeah, absolutely.
So going back, though, to thosetrying to, you know, maybe it's
(47:56):
easier to say, Well, my LinkedInmessed up, but Luther had it,
right, in a certain degree.
That's kind of I've read atleast something like that. Is
this all, also part of a, anendeavor to make the law a
little more palatable? You know,it sounds a little, a little
(48:17):
harsh, shall we call it youknow, fruits of faith are turned
into another kind of gospel,imperative, or whatever? Way,
you want to rephrase it?
Dr. Kolb (48:29):
Yeah. That there again, I think whatever we call
it, it's still going to do thesame thing. It's, it's going to
be there as as God's plan forour lives. And we're going to
find that we don't live up toit. But we are going to find,
especially in a society, that,that doesn't provide us with
moral guidance in any meaningfulway, we are going to find that
(48:56):
we simply need to, to be lookingat the law for what the law is
designed to do. And it'sdesigned to, to reveal God's
design for human life. And we'vebeen find that we're not living
up to it, and you need to fleeto the cross of Christ. And
that, that, that circle of dailyrepentance, and return to the
(49:19):
cross, and the empty tomb issimply part of the biblical way
of looking at life.
Ben Phelps (49:28):
Yeah, and I think you tie that in towards the end
of your article with the simpleuse to separate cutter, you
know, point it's, it's both. Youneed it all. You need it all.
You know, don't, don't divideand conquer. Even, you know,
don't divide law gospel, don'tdivide justification,
sanctification, you have tounderstand the distinctiveness
of them, but don't try to brushone off to the side or divide
(49:51):
the law into three parts andjust cut one out and I'll put
that over here and I'll just,you know, yeah. 10 This is the
only one rightyeah, yeah. That doesn't work.
Yeah. All right. Well, Ithink we're coming to an end of
our time for this morning. And Igot her this afternoon, I should
say. But I think we've gotthrough most of the things that
wanted to talk about. Before myfinal question or two, anything,
(50:13):
anything that I missed it fordiscussion that you wanted to
share on the content of ourtalk? I
Dr. Kolb (50:21):
think that at the end of the article, I mentioned
something that I'm still wantingto explore, because I've just
barely begun to explore it. Butin one passage, Luther talks
about three things that thegospel does. So I think this use
of the gospel as a recreativeword, though, a word that
(50:43):
forgives our sins and restoresus to righteousness. And then
secondly, we use it to consolethose who have been restored to
righteousness in the midst ofall the struggles of this earth.
And then thirdly, it's it's theHoly Spirit's means of
empowering our Christian life. Ithink there might be something
there to think through use andfunction and impact. But I
(51:06):
haven't read Luther texts. Withthat in mind sufficiently to to
kind of develop the argumentthat I had in, in this Lutheran
quarterly article, at least onon the use of functions that
impact civil law.
Ben Phelps (51:22):
Alright, so those are some areas of further study
and, and discussion for thefuture.
Dr. Kolb (51:28):
Hey, I'm only 82 years old. Yeah, I haven't had all
that much time to learn. Yeah.
Ben Phelps (51:35):
But that being said, Are there any other topics or
subjects within the broaderrealm of Lutheran history that
you have been working on? Thatyou'd care to share today?
Dr. Kolb (51:46):
I, just this week, I'm writing an article for a
collected volume of collectedessays on the relationship of
the Creed's and Scripture. AndI'm trying to find out where the
term ecumenical creeds comesfrom. And I think it's a term
that the Lutherans inventedprobably in that sure
1530s 40s 50s. I know, becausesailmaker was actually lecturing
(52:11):
on the ecumenical creeds by the1560s, or 70s. So somewhere in
there, Lutherans in the searchfor a kind of secondary
authority, and Norman NormanMata, as the theologians call it
determined that the apostles,the Nicene, and the Athanasian
(52:34):
Creed would, would be thosekinds of public standards, along
with the rest of the Lutheranconfessions by the time we get
to your 1600 or 15. A. So that'sone of that the little detective
ventures that I'm involved in asI visit our library this week.
Ben Phelps (52:57):
All right. Very good. Well, thank you so much,
Dr. Kolb for joining us today totalk about this timeless topic
of timely, timeless topic Ishould say of Lutheran history
and the Christian faith.
Dr. Kolb (53:09):
Thank you, Ben. It was it was great fun.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.